Stories of The Awliya, Purifying the heart, Storytelling, Worshiping Allah, Nature of Humans, Tawba.
We touch on all of this with Michael Sugich.
Michael Sugich has studied Sufi doctrine and practice with spiritual masters across the Arab and Islamic world.
He has been a professional writer and communications advisor for forty years and has written three books, including Signs on the Horizons and also his latest book release is Hearts Turn: Sinners, Seekers, Saints & The Road to Redemption.
He is the co-founder of a successful public relations practice and has advised corporate leaders, senior religious figures and politicians.
Hosts : Tanzim & Peter Gould
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Buy Michael Sugich's Book 'Hearts Turn'.
https://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Turn-Sinners-Seekers-Redemption/dp/0989364003
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Shownotes
Michael Sugich: 00:00 If you understand that you're supposed to be in Tawba, that this is the, this is part of your nature, is this, this sense of turning. Um, it's, it's an essential part of any kind of spiritual life you have to be in Tawba. It's it turning, it's not the, the repentance, you know, uh, this idea of repentance is like, you know, repent, you know, of all of your sins. Yes. Ideally you would be great if you could stop doing all the stuff that is keeping you back. But that isn't how things work. It's a constant process. And if you can accept that and, and the, the way that you, you achieve that is through remembering our law, returning to our law. Remember Allah, uh, you know, uh, Illah be Dhikri, Lahita, Atman Qulub. If the remembrance of Allah makes the heart peaceful. So if you remember Allah constantly, that's your tool for getting out. You know, Islam is Islam. When you die, you don't have Islam anymore as, as a practical tool that's, that's done. Islam is for your life. So use it. It's a, it's like a tool box. And if you don't use the tools, you won't build anything. But the, and the, the primary tools are remembering them.
Tanzim: 01:41 [inaudible] welcome back to another episode of boys in the cave. My name is tanzim your solo cohost. Actually, sorry, not solo cohost was meant to be, but Alhamdullilah we actually have a very special, um, cohost with us. So Peter, Gould for you guys who've checked out our previous episodes. Peter, we actually interviewed him, designer, um, runs a firm, does his amazing stuff. So he's actually joining me in the cave today, but humble la. In terms of our special guests, we have Michael [inaudible]. So Michael Souk CGH has studied a Sufi doctrine and practice with the spiritual masters across the Arab and Islamic world. He has been a professional writer and communications advisor for 40 years and has written three books including signs of the horizons and also his latest book release his heart turn sinners seekers, saints and the road to redemption. He's the cofounder of successful public relations practice and has advised corporate leaders, senior religious figures and politicians. So asalamu walaykum Peter Gould and Michael Sugich and welcom to boys in the cave. [inaudible] anytime. Alhamdullilah, I know you've, I think you landed about two days ago here in Sydney. So would this be your first time in Sydney, Australia or have you personally I've never been here before. Paula. And what's been your experience so far?
Michael Sugich: 03:01 It's lovely. It's very relaxed. Uh, I enjoy it very much. It, it has a, there's a certain, it looks a little bit, if you look at the street level and it looks like America, then you start looking at the houses and the architecture and it's different. So it's a kind of an interesting mix of uh, uh, styles. I feel very comfortable here. Some all of the weather too. It's great.
Tanzim: 03:27 Yeah. It's um, yeah. I want to actually ask you about the weather cause it's a bit unique compared to, um, wherever we've tried. Maybe I think you, you said you went to UK previously. UK is a lot different to here.
Michael Sugich: 03:39 Yeah, very much, very much. I um, the UK is a kind of second home for me, so I'm very used to it. But the weather systems there are very, it's very, in the winter it's very dark and closed in. What's beautiful about Sydney so far in my experience is the skies stunning. You know, it's huge. You've got this vast sky and you, it's, it's beautiful. It's really, really beautiful.
Peter Gould: 04:10 You, you were welcomed with a really beautiful big sunset, you know, the whole sky, which is pretty unique. I mean, we don't see that often. So it was, it was waiting for you? I think
Tanzim: 04:21 subhanAllah. Um, I know you, um, you actually had a invent last night. It was in regards to your book release. I assumed that was the main reason why you came to Sydney, also to check out the views and common boys in cave. But, uh, how was your experience so far in terms of the book release, your book launch and how have you, how have, um, so you promoted at [inaudible] avenue or is it specifically,
Michael Sugich: 04:48 yes, we, we, we did the, uh, reading here and, um, the response has been very positive. I, I won't know. You'll have to talk to some of the people that were there. But generally speaking, uh, worldwide, the response has been very strong. Um, I'm pleasantly surprised because when you write something, um, you, even though you may think it's good, you don't know what other people will think of it. So it was, um, it was a nice surprise to get such a strong response. And also in terms of sales, the book is selling very quickly. So that's, that's a nice, that's a sign that people are interested in that they like it.
Peter Gould: 05:35 My friend at, um, who runs the Bookstore Zaytuna college and a in Berkeley was just saying that yeah, it's been really popular there and uh, I guess people are resonating with it, but it's um, it's great that we have you in here in Australia sharing it with us. Hello.
Tanzim: 05:51 Hamdulillah even, um, your previous Booker's boys and Cape were affiliated with the Mad Mamluks. Uh, Mahin from the Mad Mamluks, he's a cohost there. He actually was promoting like your previous book, the signs of the horizons. He loved it alot so alhamdullilah, getting that our reception, cause it's a bit unique, I feel that people don't interact enough on a personal spiritual level with, you know, people of, um, within the spiritual path. And I think it's something that's really lacking, especially in the west, like especially me growing up, you're kind of exposed to a specific type of Islam and then it gets sort of normalized to that. But then people are sort of yearning, especially living in like a materialistic world. We're yearning for that sort of spiritual, I don't know, I don't know what to call it, like a cleansing or something of that. So, um, do you feel that that is the case with, especially with Muslims, um, living in the west, what has been your sort of,
Michael Sugich: 06:43 well, I think that what's unusual about the two books that I've written so far is that they revolve around storytelling. And storytelling is something that is, is in, uh, intrinsic to, um, Islamic, um, teaching. Uh, but it's something that's been lost in the modern era. Uh, the, the tradition of the TBA cart or hagiographies of the saints is something very old and ancient in Islam. But, uh, recently there has been very little, uh, storytelling. And if you look at the Koran, the Koran is, is, is a series of stories, um, arranged in a, in a almost fragmented fashion or seemingly fragmented fashion, but they're stories. And this is one of the most effective ways of, of putting across a message of, of, of, of teaching. So, uh, what I tried to do is revive this and revive it and tell the stories of some of these people in my own experiences and so on. So both books, um, have followed that kind of format of being short in short, specific individual stories of, um, uh, various people from various walks of life. And in the case of signs on the horizons, it was the story, my story, um, of stories of encounters with these men of God and women and people, you know, very extraordinary people that I've been able to meet along the way.
Tanzim: 08:36 [inaudible] and that's interesting you mentioned storytelling in particular because I think especially I think even with you, I'm Peter Good. You know that you know with your work you've been bothered with bombarded with information, um, and you don't know how to kind of process it. Whereas when you talk about storytelling, I'm sure you to do through your design work as well. Um, you try to tell a story and people are more receptive towards, they tend to remember stories more easily. And I think it's interesting, it's like you're trying to revive that nature of story storytelling in general because even me growing up in Sydney, Australia, when you're getting older, we're not as in touch with the Dean and you analyze some of the stories that you were told when you were younger. You realized that had such deep meanings to it. It was something you probably didn't pick up of Itin pickup, sorry, like when I was younger.
Tanzim: 09:29 But it's like what you're trying to do with your own books in particular, you actually met because for me, you know, you hear about Musa Alayhi Salaam and his stories and the profound effect on me, but you actually met those people in general. But what makes the people that you've met more different to just say your typical kind of person that wants to heal who lives in the west and goes to work from the offset. When you met them, the was there sort of, um, you can automatically tell they're a very deep spiritual guy. Like did you have to engage with them more in order to gather, you know, their personality?
Michael Sugich: 10:06 Well, the book doesn't, isn't organized in that way. Sometimes you, you meet someone who has an impact on you and you only meet them for a few seconds, a minute, you know, very brief encounters that you have in other cases in the book. Um, uh, there were people that I had very long relations with, you know, that over a period of many years. And so each encounter is different. But one of the things that, um, I think, uh, one of the qualities that these people share is that they're extremely humble and, uh, they're, they, they're very beautiful character and many of them, I mean, one of the sections in Thai signs on the horizons, for example, [inaudible] it really involves, um, people, um, appearances, people who have one appearance, but they're actually there, but they're actually something else. I mean, they could look like ordinary people, but they have extraordinary inner qualities.
Michael Sugich: 11:13 And I think the common thread of the people who have, um, who are saintly, let's say within our tradition, the Muslim tradition, is that they, their ego is, is extinguished. They don't have an ego. And it's very hard to imagine that if you haven't met someone like that because you think, well, how can you not have an ego? And when you meet these people, one of the things that you find is that the, they're extremely kind and humble and, uh, almost, uh, invisible in s in some senses. And they just, they don't get angry. They don't get frustrated. They don't have anxieties in the way that ordinary neurotic people have because their egos are gone or a faced. And this is through spiritual practice and that sort of thing. So that, that, that is, that's something that if, if you have the opportunity ever to meet someone like that, you, you're very fortunate.
Michael Sugich: 12:21 There's a, um, there's a, um, a story of one of the saints of Islam, uh, who had a dream of the prophet Mohammed and they sent out to us and he said, Yarra Sula, what is the best thing you can do in this world? And the prophet, and they sent her to send him, said in the dream to sit with a friend of God, a saint for as long as it takes to milk a goat or cook an egg, you know? So the impact of these people is very, very profound. So when you meet them, they make an impression on you. It's almost like being irradiated in a way. So, um, that, that's really what signs in the horizon was, was to try to let people know that these people in our tradition still very much exist, but they're more or less invisible because they're so humble.
Michael Sugich: 13:18 They don't really want to be known. Um, and if you, if you only know them by your intention and by the purity of your intention and your need to be, to, to meet them. Uh, the other book is really is more about the, the, um, the, the journeys of people from many different walks of life to, um, uh, to a recognition of the reality of the spiritual reality of Islam. Um, and, uh, and, and to, to the reality of is, uh, of, of faith. And so it, it signs, uh, excuse me, hearts turn is really a, consists of a series of stories of people from you who are from, they could be work. Some of them were criminals, some of them were ordinary people, some of them were our artists and intellectuals who have made a journey to faith. And so there are really interesting stories because you, you end up, um, seeing these people in the, in their transitional, you know, as they transition from being, uh, one of the, one of the stories is involves a gangster.
Michael Sugich: 14:47 He was a, a heavy east London racketeer and he became a Muslim. How did, how did he get to that? He knew he was nearly beaten to death and he saw friends die. So it was the confrontation with death. Another story involved, um, a young man who was a student who was from a Brachman Hindu Bryman family and, uh, he became a Muslim after he had to, to oversee the, the burial of his, uh, his, his uncle, uh, in Benares. So, um, uh, and it sent him on a kind of a spiritual search because he was, again, confronted with death. And there were, you know, many different stories as a story of, uh, of a man who started as a Jew became a, um, a, an angle, an Anglo Catholic, then a beatnik fought with the Fidel Castro in Cuba, uh, ended up, you know, as a kind of degenerate hippy in a, in Tangier and learned his Islam through his hash connection.
Michael Sugich: 16:05 So, you know, all these strange, interesting stories, um, kind of show you how the heart changes. And the point of that book is to show that [inaudible] that, that the nature of the human nature, the nature of, of people is that they're constantly turning, that the spiritually, that this idea that if you, if you sin, you're going to go to hell is not true. You see, I mean, if you sin and you die sinning, maybe you will, who knows? But the prophet Mohammed Array Serato Sonam said, if you did not sin, he was talking to his community. He said, if you did not sin, God would destroy you and replace you with the people who sinned so that they could turn to God asked for forgiveness and he would forgive them. So that's the nature of the, that's human nature to do something wrong. Everybody sins, even saints, Saint Sin, but the sins of a saint are different than the sins of an ordinary person because a saint, his sin, an ordinary person, sin would be a from something gross doing something wrong.
Michael Sugich: 17:26 The sin of a saint is forgetting God for a second. That's a sin for a saint. So everyone, everyone, their heart is constantly turning. You do some of the Prophet Mohammed and I said to Sadam, he said, I make Toba or I repent 70 times a day. This was the prophet Mohammed. So people in nowadays, people think of themselves as being sinners or then they're unworthy and that I've done all these things wrong. I mean, if you're living in the modern society, of course you're going to do things wrong. You get upset, you do something, you, you, you have a passion that you follow and then you feel bad about it and so on and so forth. But that's the he, that's human nature and that's the way you're, you're created to sin. And then to then to have the heart turn. And so it's a dynamic. You're constantly, constantly turning. And as you do that in that process, then you become purified and then in the heart becomes pure. So you have people who have done very terrible things. And this is true historically as well. People who were, you know, very bad people who became great, great saintly people, um, through this process. So this is what the book is about and it's a lot, many, many stories about people like that. Criminals, thieves, and also artists and intellectuals and people who've gone have, have really sort of made a journey to faith.
Tanzim: 19:11 So I think that made my heart turn. I don't know that you hit it, but that was definitely a vetting a, I think even, um, the, the um, would be apparently not on the dean, but then when he becomes a Mathy, he'll be on the straight path. So I think that's four, I think from memory as well. So they go, it relates back to you that, you know, great people were, you know, seen as I one time. It's about making the hot hot turn in that aspect. So it's definitely a lot of things that people can, uh, take away from what you said because a lot of people, you know, especially in the world that they live in, you know, bombarded with, you know, her arm around them, especially in the west. So it's not easy to get around it. So they feel sometimes, what are you quoting a negative state of mind thinking that they won't be able to turn to the straight path or they feel that they won't be able to really connect with the low, even feel shy, like to connect as they've seen so much. So what kind of advice, because you've interacted with people who have been in their path, what kind of advice would you give, um, to those people? Cause we have a young audience as well listening into boys in the cave. So it'd be really good to, um, get your insights about that.
Michael Sugich: 20:20 Well, it's, you, first of all, I would say two to a younger audiences. You don't ever think that by doing something bad that you're doomed to perdition because that's not the case at all. You have a chance of, of changing. Of course, if you don't want to change, if you're happy with the way you are and then go for it, do whatever you want. There's a, in, in, in the Koran it says La Crafty. There is no, um, uh, compulsion in the religion. You, you have, you absolutely have the freedom to send yourself to hell if you want. There's isn't, there's no compulsion, but you have the, the ability to change up until the moment that you die. And this, the, there are many stories about people who, who transform just before they die, you know, in old age. Um, and so when you're young and you're doing something wrong and you know it's wrong and you don't feel good about it, you can change.
Michael Sugich: 21:26 And the PR the, the Prophet said that if you, if you repent, it is as if you haven't done anything wrong. In other words, if you do change, you say, I'm not going to do this anymore and you stop. It's as if you never did it in the first place. So this, this Chi, this understanding is very important because young people today, young Muslims especially because they've been influenced by, you know, a kind of doctrine or theology that is very rigid in on and, uh, you know, uh, on unforgiving, um, they, they feel that if they did something wrong, that's it. They're going to go to hell. And that's not true. It's absolutely not true. And anyone who tells you otherwise is, is, is misguided. Um, because the whole point is that everyone sins, everyone all the time daily, but the sins become more and more refined.
Michael Sugich: 22:37 So you know, you're doing something really bad, right? Like a major sin or something. If you stop doing it, it's as if you, if you never did it, if you really stopped doing, and also, um, sometimes you, you do something and then you'll backslide and you'll do it again. So then you, you change again. You repent, you turn to God again and say, Whoa, I'm sorry. I'm, I'll, I'll change again. So you, it's a constant process until, um, uh, in, until you stop doing these things. And that's, this is the nature of, that's the nature of the is human nature. Human nature is that you do things wrong. And that's how you learn. So you, you, you air and then you, you repent. Now if you think that you don't have to, that's another problem. You see what I mean? Cause if you want to live a, a balanced and a happy life, you, you really don't want to hurt other people do or, you know, cheat, steal, do whatever it is that, that, that you're doing that hurts people.
Michael Sugich: 23:48 Um, and so, uh, I mean one of the, one of the stories in the book [inaudible] involves, uh, a guy who was a womanizer. And He, at one point in his life, he went to hell, to figurative hell. He was in a state of being in hell. And one of the things that happened to him is that all the women that he'd had is a one night stand came through in from the wall toward him. It was like a horror. And he realized how he'd hurt them. Do you see what I mean? And, and so he, he stopped doing that. That was a very terrible thing because he saw how he, how much he hurts someone doing that. So th but this, if he hadn't done it, he wouldn't have changed. Do you see what I mean? Well, the, the man who, there was a man, one of the stories is about someone who was a gangster and he was fueled on rage.
Michael Sugich: 24:52 And he, he loved to be, he loved to be in a brawl. And he's, he said that the reason he liked fighting was because he was so insecure that the only time he ever, ever felt secure was when he was in the middle of a brawl, beating someone up or getting beaten. It w it made him feel, it made him feel whole in a way. And then he read, when he came to Islam, he read the Hadith of the prophet and I said to send [inaudible] where one of the Sahaba came to the prophet and he, he said, give me counsel. And the Prophet said, do not be angry. And the Sahaba asked him again, give me more counsel. He said, do not be angry. And he kept repeating, do not be angry. And this man, uh, when he heard this, he said, it changed my life because he couldn't imagine not being angry.
Michael Sugich: 25:51 His whole life was fueled by rage and the anger and being offended by things. And so what happened was that when he would do after he became a Muslim was he would go out with the intention that he would not get angry. So he'd go out and someone would insult him or something like that and he, instead of beating the guy, he would, he would make himself not angry. And so you, it's when you, when you see, when you kind of see all the various permutations of how people change, it's really very moving because you see, you see how the heart is so malleable and so soft and able to change. Um, if it's right, be guided, if, if it, if there's guidance there. So that's, that's what the second book is about.
Tanzim: 26:49 Those were amazing insights. I feel like he's already taught us like, hello, what the book is, but like he was, but just, it's like he's read the whole book in front of us. But because of the vibe that you give in regards to certain people, I think a lot of people can resonate with it. Especially because like for example, you're giving these examples of people coming to the straight path at the same time we, I think what we tend to do is look everything, not me. I tend to look at everything on more of a surface level, like seeing all disguise, doing the wrong thing, this and that. But it's about seeing it a bit more deeper. Seeing that they can come back to the faith and be, you know, a practicing really good, you know, most of them are a good person and we don't tend to do that or I don't tend to do that. We tend to be be a bit more unforgiving. Maybe it's the way Islam was preached to us when we're younger and I feel like you're actually changing that narrative. So humble. Um, I might actually have to wrap it up there because you got an event tonight, but I'm, I don't want to keep you waiting too long, but with any final thoughts you wanted to, um, tell our listeners in particular regards to your book. It could be anything in general, like a lot of takeaways by it.
Michael Sugich: 28:04 No, it's, I think it, it's, it's a fun read. There's a, there's a lot in it that's not heavy. There's a lot in it that that's, that's, that's funny and, and light and there's some great stories in it and I think people would really enjoy, and you can learn a lot because I've included some of the ancient stories. I've mixed them with contemporary stories and the, there are many different, you know, many, I think there, there are stories that will resonate with we're very big audience, not just not just criminals or excrement or something. It's, it, it really, um, I think it's w it would be worth having a look at anyway. It's available here at the center.
Peter Gould: 28:52 Yeah. Music online as well. You can buy online. Lots of places
Michael Sugich: 28:56 available on kindle as well. So we're online.
Peter Gould: 29:00 Yeah. And I'll just add to that the, yeah, I mean lots of different people from walks of life that have come across the book that I've talked to about have said the same thing and different stories resonate with different people. So I think it's a good gift as well for people that are kind of, um, well it just, everyone will take something from it and some of them are very, very moving as well and others are more lighthearted. So, um, I think this is a very welcome addition to, um, you know, we might be going to classes or and doing, you know, really getting going into some heavy books and you know, very deep things. But this has the depth and the message and, and the lessons are deep, but the way you read it is, is um, easy and fun and um, you know, just something will, I think everyone will enjoy checking it out.
Tanzim: 29:44 Yeah, definitely. We'll definitely put the links to your book in our show notes so then people can check it out in shaa Allah but jazakAllah khaiyran for coming on boys in the cave was really inspiring. Talk is very unique because it's about getting the message across about stories, about, you know, people turning back to the straight path. It's not something I've done to regularly on the show, but yeah, it does. [inaudible] for coming on boys in the cave. Thank you. So for our listeners, thank you for giving us your attention. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email [email protected] or find us on Facebook and you can follow a journey through Instagram. Please leave a five star rating on iTunes. That greatly helps us. So for my special guest, Michael Sugich, myself, and my special cohost, Peter Gould. This is Tanzim signing you off. Assalamu Alaykum.