285: Cider Chat | Cider's Media Part 4

Who is Cider Chat?

In Part 4 of this series on Cider's Media it is time to talk about Cider Chat - the podcast that is hosting this series! As you listen to this episode you will hear Ria discussing and reading from her interview for RealBrew a magazine that features Cider in one issue per year. Note RealBrew publishes their hard copy magazine 6 times per year.

The heading of the interview is:

Cider Chat - A Touch of Experience

The story about one of the most famous talk projects dedicated to cider.

I am a fan of quality libations and come from a family that upholds the tradition to starting each holiday gathering with a raised glass and toast. As a child I was taught that it was an honor to drink with my grandfathers and not one that they nor I abused or took for granted. These same grandfathers were at one time known as Bootleggers during Prohibition and my paternal grandfather always had a barrel of cider at his farm. The apple tree in his backyard had 5 different varieties grafted onto that one tree and the children were taught not to climb its majestic branches. We knew at an early age that it provided food and drink to our family and as such was revered.

My own parents also did a bit of fermenting. I first learned how to make beer and then began to ferment grapes and apples. My novice background in fermenting was just enough to land me a fun side gig as a craft beer writer in 2003. I have been writing a bimonthly column and an occasional feature all these years later for that same craft beer newspaper called Yankee Brew News (YBN). For many years, I was one of the few women beer writers in the US, who was also actively making cider, teaching cidermaking courses, and had a platform to write about both beer and cider.

At first the editors at YBN were reluctant to publish news on cider, but eventually they let me plug in articles during each apple harvest season. In 2013, I knew cider was finally getting a wider audience. That same year, while judging at the annual Great International Beer Competition in Rhode Island, we had an uptick in the number of ciders being entered into the competition. The next year, the number of entries tripled and even more notable a commercial cidermaker flew across the country from California to represent his brand. Cider sales in the US was growing exponentially during this time.

Also in 2014, while at that same competition that highlighted beer, everyone wanted to talk to me about cider. They knew, via my writings, that I was regularly teaching a “how-to make cider” course at a local cider festival. That festival called “CiderDays” is now the longest running and most celebrated cider event in the US and takes place on the first weekend of November. Being part of CiderDays when it first started back in 1994, allowed me to meet the early cider pioneers in the US before the current modern day cider movement we see today.

Pictured left to Right: Chuck Shelton of Albemarle Ciderworks, VA | Bartosz Gałka/ Poland Anzu Fernandes of La Sidra and Randall Graham

Professionally, during all this time I was quite busy working as the CEO and Founder of an international consulting firm focused on conflict management. During my travels I would always set aside time to visit a cidermaker, orchard, and breweries.

Blame it on fate that at the same time the cider market was growing, I was looking at scaling back my consulting work. I already had a weekly podcast on my specialty in managing violent situations, so I decided why not create a second podcast solely on cider. The decision was easy to make due to the growing interest of cider in the US and the uncanny number of “cider experts” popping up on the internet.

I launched the first episode of Cider Chat in the fall of 2015 and it is now in its sixth season with nearly 300 episodes. All the episodes are archived and free to download via the Cider Chat website and all the podcast App directories such as Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

I post an episode each Wednesday and feature interviews with makers, cider enthusiasts, and people in the cider industry worldwide. Episodes are between 30 minutes to one hour in length and usually begin with “News from Out and About in Ciderville”. The listeners of Cider Chat are a very engaged audience, so often I am reading letters sent to me. For each episode, I select a specific theme to discuss and also have series on topics such as the 2020 four-part series with Russian cidermakers.

There are currently 5 episodes featuring Russian makers, which is quite exciting as this is such a new category for the country and the cider, I have tasted thus far is quite impressive! Alexander Ionov of Rebel Apple based in Moscow is show casing the apple variety known as Antonovka in his cider called Bride. It is a wonderful aromatic cider that is very fruit forward with a touch of tannin. I had Alex on Episode 216.

2018 Totally Cider Tour with Etienne Dupont, Eric Bordelet,  Ann Marie Thornton of James Creek Cider

In February 2020, I was set to meet Russian cidermaker Maxim Brecht. He along with a group of Russian cidermakers were attending Cidrexpo in Normandy France, so we set up an interview. I was honestly expecting a group of men, but when Maxim walked through the door with three women who were all making cider I was floored! Their passion and joy for cider was contagious. I titled Part 1 of the four-part series “The Russian Cider Party Starts Now!” It featured Alina Lotkeva who via her I Love Cider brand is helping to boost Russian cider. Olga Efremov and her cidermaking husband Micheal Efremov are both sommeliers and their brand OMG shows their level of skill honed from the wine world. I love following Olga’s Instagram posts because her ability to describe cider is heavenly! RealBrew’s own editor Elena V. Tyukina made me do a mental double take, when I realized that not only is she Owner and Head Brewmeister at Knightberg Brewery in Saint Petersburg, but she is also already winning awards with her barrel aged cider, the 2017 Force of Gravity! Maxim’s own bottle conditioned cider is exquisite. I can’t wait to see what all these and the many more Russian makers have to offer moving forward.

People listen to Cider Chat via the website, podcast directory Apps and at the Cider Chat YouTube channel. The goal for this podcast is to “be everywhere” thus I also have social media accounts on Twitter @ciderchat, Instagram @ciderchatciderville, a Cider Chat Facebook page and even a TikTok page @ciderchat.

In 2018, I launched Totally Cider Tours and have since led cider tours both in Europe and in the US. I started this side business because so many listeners wanted to visit the cidermakers that I have interviewed. Tour guiding comes naturally to me due to my organizational and facilitation skills and my extensive work as a wilderness guide.

Early on and for some time, I have paid out of pocket to produce the podcast. It is still a one person show with me both Producing and Hosting, but I am slowly extending my reach and looking at hiring a virtual assistant as the podcast’s audience continues to grow.

Cider Chat is partly supported by patrons and sponsors. I do take FAM trips which are paid press tours to help promote cider in a particular region of the world. My goal is to show case the local terroir and to celebrate the people, local foods, and sights.

I have interviews featuring the following areas in the world, Asturias, Australia, Canada, The Canary Islands, Catalonia, Chile, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Ireland, Japan, Kazakhstan, Luxembourg, Nederlands, New Zealand, Poland, Portugal, Russia, Sweden, Tasmania, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and the United States (nearly every state).

Jenifer Dean of County Cider Carol B. Hillman of New Salem Cider Alex Ionov - Rebell Cider Mike Johnson, Ria and Albert Johnson of Ross Cider and Perry Company

I don’t expect guests to reveal their “secret recipe” for making cider. There is no secret. It is pretty straightforward and is more a matter of skill, which takes time, and the right kind of apples. What I do look for from each guest, is their own story and what inspires them to make cider. This often leads us to a much broader history that entails family, food, and local cultures and customs.

Here are just a few of the people I have interviewed on Cider Chat and their simple quotes that have stood out for me and have inspired listeners around the world.

Let’s start in a region well known to have the oldest recorded references to cider and head to Asturias and its coastal city of Gijon. It is estimated that the average yearly intake of “Sidra” here is 65 liters per every man, woman, and child. This region of Spain has a cider celebration nearly every weekend of the year. And also hosts the International Hall of Gala Apples in the Fall which I attended in 2017. There are 2500 “Asturian only” varieties of cider apples with 200 varieties considered endemic to only Asturias. Every brand of Natural Sidra, has at the minimum 6 varieties of apples in the blend. Asturias makers produce 100,000,000 liters of Sidra per year. And there are even Cider pourer competitions!

The long pour or the “Colene”, where the cider is poured from at least a meter from bottle to glass is done to release the carbonic gases in the sidra. The glass is held on a slight angle to catch the pour with only about an 1/8 of a cup or 29 milliliters poured into each glass. The result is a frothy amount of cider which is meant to be drunk right away, much like a shot of vodka. One does not sniff and swill sidra.

While in Gijon to attend a cider competition, I interviewed Anzu Fernández for La Sidra magazine. Anzu it should be noted speaks 15 languages and is a medical doctor. He is also what I call “Cider Bold” with his unapologetic views of his region’s quality of cider saying, “Asturians are quite expert in cider. You won't fool anyone with a low-quality cider.” Anzu’s interview can be heard in episode 062.

Skipping back to the US, in 2015 I was able to meet and interview Randall Grahm, while visiting my own family in Santa Cruz California. I have since posted two episodes with him, the first in 2016 in episode 012 and the second in 2019, in episode 188. Randall is the recipient of multiple James Beard Awards and is a prolific writer with a whimsical touch. He is known in the wine world as the “Rhone Ranger” and turned the category upside down when he introduced screw caps to high end bottles of wine. Recently he sold his label “Bonny Doon Vineyards” in California to work on his new estate vineyard Popelochum which is south of where he started his innovative winemaking 36 years ago. His 2013 “Querry”, a blend of quince, apples and pears is part of the reason why I first sought him out for an interview. He approaches cidermaking from a winemaker’s view and says, “What I am doing with grapes one might want to consider doing with apples.” Coming from one of the premier winemakers in the US today, I view this simple statement as a call to action.

John Bunker resides on the east coast of the US in the state of Maine and is a renowned apple detective. He just published his newest book “Apples and The Art of Detection” in 2019. John is often asked to identify trees abandoned at old homesteads and as such has been able to elevate awareness around lost apple varieties. John says, "With the work that I do around heritage apples. What I'm looking for is a variety that maybe someone introduced a 100 years ago, or 200 years ago, or even 300 years ago." John Bunker is looking at the long run that cider has had and the long future ahead. He has also inspired a new generation of apple detectives. You can find John featured on episodes, 016: Super Chilly Farm, 028: Apple Identification, 264: Grandma’s Perfect Orchard.

Tom Oliver is a celebrated maker from Herefordshire who is well known for both his ciders and perry and many collaborations with other cidermakers and brewers. Tom has been featured on episodes 029 when he talks about his coveted hopped cider and episode 105 on making perry. Says Tom, “I'm a big fan of the concept of a family of cidermakers. We may all be making cider in different ways, different business models, but what we do need to do is get on with each other.” Considering that cider is still a small niche in a huge world of drinks, this advice is spot on for cidermakers worldwide.

In episode 035 Danielle von Scheiner of New York City shares how she donates a portion of her ciders to charitable causes in NYC and says, “We give a little part of the "Big Apple" to anyone who drinks it [our cider].” She is putting the "BIG" back into New York City's apple love with so much of her charitable contributions and as such is an inspiration to all.

I recorded episode 044 with Sebastian Lousada who lives on a mountain top in the state of Vermont. He is both licensed to make cider and to distill. I am a big fan of his "Pomme-de-Vie" an organic apple brandy. The cidery is named Flag Hill Farm and is operated fully off the grid being supported by solar panels. It is here that he has been producing cider for nearly 30 years making Flag Hill Farm one of the oldest cideries in the US.  As such he has the long view of cider over time and says, “Back then people had no idea what cider was or that it even had alcohol in it. Because of the confusion over Sweet Cider which is fresh pressed apple juice, we decided to spell our product with a “Y” and so it is spelled as “Cyder” to differentiate it from other products. On a good year we make 4000 gallons of cider. Because we only want to use apples that we have grown.”

Further to the south in the state of Virginia the Shelton family run Albemarle Ciderworks & Vintage Virginia Apples. I’ve featured Chuck Shelton who is the Head Cidermaker on episodes 056 and 254. At most every cider event you will see Chuck with a bag of bottles and if you are lucky, he will slip one out and pour you a sip. The cidery makes some of the finest single varietal ciders and blends in the US. I love how Chuck sums cidermaking up by saying, “Cider happens. If you squeeze juice out of an apple and put it in a jar. As long you manage the vinegar bacteria, you're gonna make cider and its gonna make itself.”

My journey in cider has taken me to France on a number of occasions. When I reached out to the French interprofessional association of cider-based controlled appellations

(I.D.A.C.) for recommendations they immediately directed me to Agathe Letellier. I was headed to Normandy to interview cider producers and to plan a cider tour. When I arrived to her seaside orchard, I saw giant photos of happy cows posted out in her orchard. I knew I was in the right place! Agathe has done a wonderful job making her cidery tourist friendly. She and I shared a very long belly laugh that you can hear on episode 049, when I told her that American cidermakers sometimes add coffee to their cider. Her label is Manoir d’Apreval and is located by the scenic harbor town of Honfleur. She is the current spokesperson for Calvados in Normandy. Agathe sums up what takes place in the barrel of Calvados by saying, “We have an evolution in the bottle.”

I am forever thankful that I had the opportunity to interview Jérôme Dupont (1970-2018) of Domain Dupont for episode 098 at the Normandy estate. He was an innovative cidermaker and helped to move Norman ciders out into the world market. Without a doubt he was the leading figure in promoting Calvados. He is the great grandson of Jules Dupont who bought Domaine Dupont in Pays d’Auge with Calvados in 1887 helping to move his cattle raising family into the spirits industry. Today his father Étienne Dupont runs the estate. Jérôme said, “You don’t master wild yeast. You get to know them and get to anticipate a little bit of what they will do. But you need certainly time and attention. It is much simpler to pitch selected yeast. But the complexity of the cider is due to the apple varieties and the wild yeast.”

In 2020 I recorded a Calvados tasting with Jérôme’s father, Étienne, which is the featured in episode 265. Being able to taste cider with such a master crafter was undoubtedly a highlight of my career. He describes the act tasting of Calvados by saying, “You put it in your mouth, you keep it [Calvados] in your mouth and the aroma's go up.”

Thanks to an introduction by Randall Grahm, I was able to meet French maker Eric Bordelet. He is considered an elusive maker whose cider and perry is often touted as some of the best in the world. He had worked many years as one of the top Sommeliers in Paris before heading back to his family’s Domaine in Normandy. He was encouraged by his late friend Didier Daganeau, who was a winemaker and well known for his Sauvignon Blanc, to become a cidermaker. That advice was spot on and today over 75% of Eric’s product is exported to sites outside of France. On episode 057 he says, “The only school for me is taste, taste, taste” which shows how he views cidermaking to being like a chef in a kitchen. In 058 he discusses why he prefers to blend apple before pressing and does not do single varietal ciders, “It is my opinion of cider to have more balance [to blend].”

The cidermaking tradition in Poland dates back to the 16th century, but is only recently gearing up once again. My guest Bartosz Gałka of Poland in episode 064 says “The main point is to try, to learn, and enjoy!” Considering that the country grows a lot of apples but is now only just beginning to celebrate the fermented juice in the glass, makes this country one to put on the cider watch list!

Canadian cidermaking like the US was thrown out of whack due to Prohibition. One of the key influencers of cider is County Cider based in Prince Edward County in the Canadian Province of Ontario that began selling cider in 1996. This cidery was launched by Grant Howes a formidable man considered the Grandfather of Cider in Ontario. In 2000 Jenifer Dean who had studied winemaking joined up with County Cider. Sadly, her husband Grant unexpectedly passed away in January 2017. Their tasting room has a lovely view out onto Lake Ontario and you can see the trees close by that they keep the fruit on deep into the winter so to make Ice Cider. Growing their own fruit for cider is key, with Jenifer saying, "It is a shame that cideries are not growing their own apples. You need to have a sense of what you are growing in order to make good cider." Listen to Jenifer’s interview in episode 137

Prince Edward County in Ontario has seen an uptick of cidermakers and one person in particular has been a regular guest on Cider Chat with over 10 episodes. His name is Ryan Monkman of FieldBird Cider. He has extensive experience in the wine industry and brings this talent to his cidermaking. Ryan specializes in barrel aging cider. He has taught many listeners of Cider Chat via episode 132 the technique known as Bâtonnage, which is stirring in the lees rather than racking them off the cider. Ryan encourages us all to “Use all your senses in the cellar”. In 2020 and then again, this year 2021, I published two separate Ask Ryan Series. The first was called the Quarantine Quad series and covered topics sent in by listeners on subjects such as American vs French oak for barrels and Maderisation, which is when barrels are intentionally left out to be ‘cooked by the heat and sun. The result is a high alcohol cider that is considered “Maderised”. In Part 4 of this series on episode 224 Ryan explained how to manage Flor or what is also commonly called “film yeast”, which can look like an oil slick on top of cider during conditioning. Though quite common it can be scary the first time you see Flor and it happens to both wine and cider. Ryan says, “Film yeast will consume oxygen which can be a good thing. But if it goes on for more than a couple of weeks you will lose aromatics. Do look out for acetobacter that is a form of film yeast and is more bubbly than other Flor, because it will eventually form vinegar.”

Back in the southern state of North Carolina, cidermaking husband and wife team David and Ann Marie Thornton are showcasing a blend of their apples and local fruit in their Stargazer Series. The Prowling Peach is part of this series and is a barrel aged cider with peach juice. And the James Creek Heritage Ciders showcase their regional apples and are bottled in 750ML glass presentations! The terroir of southern apple varieties is uniquely their own. Says David, “In the South we are just starting to rediscover our cider heritage.” Listen to the Thorntons share their passion for cider in episode 179 titled South Apples.

The Ross Cider Fest is a three-day festival that takes place to the west of London and has been hosted by the Johnson family for 25 years. Mike Johnson’s son Martin manages the magnificent Yew Tree Pub and son Albert works alongside Mike and cidermaker John Edwards producing upwards to 90 ciders, many of which have one or two choice apples and some very fine single varietal ciders and perries. I was able to camp out in the orchard in 2019 along with a many other people who attended the cider fest. I interviewed Mike and Albert in episode 194. I admire all these men for their love of cider, their quality product and their honest and no-nonsense view on cider. Says Mike, “It depends why are you into cidermaking - if you just want to make something sweet and fizzy and sell as much as possible that’s a different argument. Maybe… But if you are really interested in the apples you have to get to know them. And it is fun”.

John Edwards whose full name is John Michael Leslie Edwards is also known as John the Cidermaker. In addition to helping the Johnson family he also has his own cider label called “Fly Be Night”. He says, “The most important thing is to eliminate hurry. With cidermaking you have to be patient.” Eliminating hurry is likely one of the most poetic ways to describe cider that I have heard of to date. Besides excellent cider his labels are also poetic and to the point reading, “Look close into the label and you will see, words of wisdom, fun and mischievous glee! …There are no surprises, just a straight up fact – this cider contains – 0% Shit”. You can hear John’s story in episode 192.

In episode 198 I had the honor of interviewing Cornell University Pomologist Gregory M. Peck PhD. He has been a Professor of Pomology at Cornell, since 2015 and is helping to usher in the pomologist of the future. Needless to say, he has a wide view on cider both in the US and internationally which is why when he says, “The cider industry is going to grow very rapidly.” I listen.

There are a number of cideries in what is known as the Finger Lakes region of New York state. I did a FAM tour of this area and was impressed by the people and their products. When I interviewed Garrett Miller of the Finger Lakes Ciderhouse and asked why he became a farmer and then cidermaker his reply was straightforward and familiar. He said, “It looked like a really enjoyable way to spend a life.” After spending the afternoon at this booming cider house that is complete with an onsite restaurant, and a large farm called the Good Life Farm there is no doubt that Garrett’s words ring true. I interview him in episode 203.

Back in my home state of Massachusetts is what many call an “Orchard Museum”. This orchard is located at New Salem Cider and has been cared for by the same pruner for the past 30 years. The orchard has a bonsai sensibility with the apple tree’s water sprouts turned into “Apple Pretzels” and many 100-year-old trees everywhere. The gentle woman farmer who brought this colonial era farm back to life nearly 50 years ago is Carol B. Hillman. She is ninety+ years young and has hosted a harvest fest for the past 20 years at her Cider Mill. I interviewed Carol in episode 192 titled “Cider Revitalizes a 1750 Colonial Orchard”. In this episode Carol told the story of how she chased a hunter out of her apple tree and brought back this old colonial homestead. Her original sights were on the house, but then she turned her sights on the abandoned orchard to bring it back to full glory saying, “Without apple trees we are nothing.”

And thanks to the apple trees we have something that is essentially a time capsule of a fall harvest season. Cider may be bubbly or still and sometime a mix of apples or one specific variety. Some makers add other fruit or spices to their cider, but one thing is certain, “We All Love Cider”!

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