Gospel Conversations podcast

Did Paul have an introspective conscience over sin?  The answer is “no”’according to a classic article and Tony explains the reasoning in this podcast.

Welcome to the next installment in the Breakfast with Jesus series. There's been a long pause since I did Ezekiel chapter one. Ezekiel is such an important book and, the more I think about Ezekiel, the more it frames a lot of the gospel. 

In our last talk Andrew took us deeper into various metaphors for atonement – and asked which best fits scripture and gospel.  In this talk, Tony supplements that deep dive by zooming back out and asking, ‘what is the real question, for which the cross and salvation is the answer?’  He concludes that Penal Substitution is the answer to the wrong question and explains why.  He then refines the better question – a question for which adoption is a better answer.

In this episode of our Cross and Creation series, Andrew continues his summarising of the metaphors for the atonement.  He argues that every metaphor has its limits and cannot be pushed universally. But he argues that the adoption/sonship model of the atonement offers the best fit for the various metaphors, and that the alternative wrath of God/judicial model narrows and even distorts the grand sweep of the gospel story.

To assist with the talk Andrew has provided a short set of Powerpoint slides on the subject. Please see the "Download Documents" link on our website page - Gospel Conversations

In this talk Tony amplifies the intriguing phrase ‘Circle of Glory’ which David Bentley Hart mentioned in his final talk in our recent GC series. The phrase was coined by Gregory of Nyssa and Tony explores the extraordinary vision of the Trinity bound up in the term – and how it reveals our participation in the ‘circle of glory’. Tony does this by a detailed commentary on the original treatise of Gregory’s where ‘circle of glory’ is the climax to a transcendent vision of God and creation.

Session 5 - What is humanity’s destiny and purpose? Is heaven more like a marriage or a motel visit?

In this final talk, David advocates the age-old vision of the Patristics that ‘God became human in order that humanity may become God’. This breathtaking vision is at once completely orthodox, but almost sounds blasphemous. Together Tony and David explore this vision of ‘deification’ through the work of Gregory of Nyssa and his touching homily on marriage as the culminating picture of the union between God and humanity.

There are a set of notes that have been written to assist the listener to engage with this dense material. These can be found on our website - Gospel Conversations

Session 4 - Is the Incarnation a master plan or a rescue plan?

David builds on his epic book ‘YOU ARE GODS’ in this session, and widens our view of the incarnation from being a one-off rescue plan, to the master plan for all humanity. Clearly this is an intriguing thought, but it takes some deep conceptual shifts to absorb and that is what Tony and David dive into in the latter half of this fascinating topic.

There are a set of notes that have been written to assist the listener to engage with this dense material. These can be found on our website - Gospel Conversations

Session 3 - Has the ‘supernatural/natural’ dualism messed up our view of creation? 

David explains how both religious and secular thinking share a common dualism that distorts our view of reality. For the religious mind, the supernatural God becomes totally separate from the world of nature which it sees as material and fallen. So David and Tony turn to the mesmerising thought of Maximus the Confessor to find a more integrated view of God and creation in the wondrous vision of a ‘cosmic liturgy’.  And they argue that God has placed humanity at the centre of this cosmic liturgy as the conductor of the orchestra.

There are a set of notes that have been written to assist the listener to engage with this dense material. These can be found on our website - Gospel Conversations

Session 2 - Has ‘original sin’ distorted the Christian view of humanity?

Augustine’s doctrine of original sin eventually became ‘total depravity’ and it assumes that humans are intrinsically bad and cannot desire the good. It has become the pervasive anthropology of much of Christianity – but is it right? David and Tony explore the alternative view through the theology of the great Nicholas of Cusa who declared that at heart all humans desire the good – and thus they desire God.

There are a set of notes that have been written to assist the listener to engage with this dense material. These can be found on our website - Gospel Conversations

Session 1 - Is the mind a machine?

Nothing is more topical than the spectre of ‘artificial intelligence’ and the grim picture of humanity it suggests. David uses our experience of thought and language to demolish the fallacies behind this mechanistic picture of thinking. But he does not end there. He lifts our vision of language from a personal experience to a participation in something bigger than all of us – transcendence and the divine mind.

There are a set of notes that have been written to assist the listener to engage with this dense material. These can be found on our website - 

Gospel Conversations

The 2023 Pamela Nutt lecture, sponsored by PLC, Sydney.

David Bentley Hart addresses the subject, "What does Beauty tell us about God?"

In this latest edition in the Cross and Creation series, Tony and Andrew explore some of the metaphors for what happened at Calvary. None of them really fit the Penal Substitution metaphor.  They range over several metaphors like reconciliation, and redemption, but focus in on adoption and dominion; Calvary was the great battle for dominion of the cosmos, and we are adopted into that kingship won at Calvary.  The episode begins with a recap of our journey thus far.

In this panel discussion, two Christian indigenous leaders explain some of their spiritual heritage and how they have found deep resonances with the creation gospel in them. David Hart joins in, and explains that, far from being heretical, their views are close to the original views on creation developed by the church Fathers – and in particular the brilliant 7th century theologian Maximus the Confessor.

The panel consisted of Australian First Nations Pastors Ray Minniecon and Gabriel Bani with David Benley Hart. Moderated by Tony Golsby Smith.

Recorded at St Johns, Glebe, Sydney on Aug 17th 2023.

David Bentley Hart on Suffering This is the first talk from David Bentley Hart during his visit to Australia. He addresses the vexed topic of suffering based on his book ‘The Doors of the Sea’. This talk is followed by a long series of questions which take the topic – and David’s views – deeper and more personal.

Tony opens up the wild, imagery laden world of Ezekiel 1 in this talk. He views it through the lens of literature and imagery in particular.  And he explains how it is among the most innovative and paradigm shifting chapters in the history of the Old Testament – as Ezekiel discovers the ‘ubiquitous God’ who operates far beyond the tidy religious confines of Jerusalem – a Jerusalem that is about to be destroyed anyway.

The Grand Inquisitor (2) on Miracles as a counterfeit for faith

Tony gives us a second talk on the Grand Inquisitor and his assault on God and the re-vitalised Christ. In this talk Tony explains why the Inquisitor sees the human desire for miracles as false religion – and something that denies God what he wants. God wants his presence on earth not spectacular invasions of normalcy – which miracles are.  So they cannot be the staple diet of a faithful life. Instead we must recognise the sacred space of the natural world we live in… and this theme will take us right back to Ezekiel!

In this session they Tony and Andrew look at some of the alternative theories of atonement over the history of the church – and how they have led to the dominance of the ‘penal substitutionary atonement’ theory of today. As always, our spirit is one of inquiry and discovery not dogma – so Andrew and Tony will continue to examine different perspectives around this theory that is so central to our faith.

Tony Golsby-Smith introduces the upcoming Gospel Conversations conference to be held in Sydney on the 25/26th August. He expresses the excitement that we all hold in anticipation of his visit. He also explains that Gospel Conversations is not just inviting a big name but rather a speaker who can help us to put the Lord Jesus Christ on a much higher pedestal than traditional Protestantism has done in the past.

For this episode Andrew is in conversation with Leisa Aitken as they discuss Andrew's paper on the "Sacrifice of Isaac". The paper was a short exegesis on Genesis 22 and can be found at this  link

Tony continues looking at Ezekiel 12 - 14, this time through the lens of Dostoievsky’s ‘Grand Inquisitor’. 

Tony takes us into Dostoievsky’s famous imaginary confrontation where the Inquisitor berates Jesus for ‘overestimating’ humanity and wanting too much from them - love rather than servility. He draws a deep comparison between this and the idolatrous mindset.

Tony looks to the passage Ezekiel 12 - 14 to address the subject of ‘Idolatry in the OT and how modern Christians get it wrong’. 

“Getting rid of idols in our hearts” is a common refrain in lots of preaching.  But is it true to scripture - both in the NT and the OT? Tony dives into the worldview behind idolatry and the real challenge it presented to the Mosaic vision of the one true God.

Ezekiel chapter 6 - Ezekiel and the ‘angry God’ of the OT.  In this BWJ episode Tony confronts the question of the so-called ‘angry God’ or ‘just God’ of the Old Testament and whether this picture contradicts the loving and ‘broken’ God revealed in Jesus.

Introduction; 

Breakfast with Jesus kicks off again after a short break with a series of meditations on Ezekiel.  Tony begins with a big picture introduction in which he compares Jeremiah and Ezekiel, their overlapping lives, and the way Ezekiel pioneers apocalyptic thinking and the hope of resurrection.

In this episode, Andrew and Tony explore a radical alternative view of the Fall – as ‘lost dominion’.  To do this they go back to the creation account and expand the concept of our being made in the image of God, and the implications of God calling humanity to have ‘dominion’.

This is the second conversation with Andrew Baartz in our series on the increasingly controversial doctrine of ‘penal substitution’.

The title of our series is ‘The Cross and Creation; can atonement combine both?’

This week Tony and Andrew explore the question - ‘What are the challenges in creation for which the cross was the solution?’ 

In this latest BwJ talk of Jeremiah Tony investigates ‘allegory’ as a way to read the OT in particular. Is it an outdated, and fanciful method – or were the Patristics really onto something in their attraction to allegory as a legitimate way to read the OT stories and prophets?

This is the first conversation with Andrew Baartz in our series on the increasingly controversial doctrine of ‘penal subsititution’.

The title of our series is ‘The Cross and Creation; can atonement combine both?’

True to our approach at GC, we want to explore the topic rather than wading into the blow by blow debate. Our guest is Andrew Baartz. Andrew and Tony talk about the big picture – what are the questions for which atonement is the answer? And what are the assumptions behind those questions? The discussion stretches our conceptual landscape to allow for some broader perspectives. True to our theme at GC, we will position this topic within the horizon of the ‘creation gospel’.

The conversation will continue next month.

Jeremiah 17:9 is often taken as a proof text for ‘original sin’ and “total depravity”.  But is that a correct reading and is the human heart indeed ‘desperately wicked’?

In this talk Tony explores this question and along the way uses the text – and its typical mishandling – as a starting point to explore smarter and more authentic ways to read Jeremiah – and indeed the Old Testament.  This is pretty important as it unlocks the text from its cage of assumptions and lets it speak for itself – and so challenge and transform us.

Tony takes an extensive look at the way Jeremiah uses the image of the ‘Valley of Hinnom’ (or Gehenna) in his prophecies about Jerusalem and its impending doom.  He then looks at how the gospels, Matthew in particular, deliberately position Jesus as the modern ‘Jeremiah’ or ‘prophet’.  This positioning shines a new light on what Jesus may have meant by his use of the metaphor of ‘Gehenna’ (the Aramaic for ‘Valley of Hinnom’).  Finally Tony looks at the neglected high point of the new covenant in Jeremiah – which is the apparent redemption of the Valley of Hinnom as ‘sacred to the Lord’…. All of this leaves us with a different view of ‘hell’ (Gehenna) that is much more grounded in the Biblical text.

Tony Golsby-Smith interviews, Matt Clarke, on the subject of slavery in the 21st century – and how the normal Christian model of retribution and justice can get in the way of innovative solutions. Matt has worked in this field for years and became frustrated at the short sighted interventions of many Not-for-profits in this space. He has just written a great book, called ‘Disrupting Mercy’ about the topic which argues that we don’t just need a more holistic approach – we need a new paradigm of mercy. This interview is a prelude to our upcoming series on ‘The Cross and Creation’ where we will be examining the pros and cons of the controversial doctrine of ‘penal substitution’.

This is Tony’s follow up talk on Jeremiah 32 – the story of Jeremiah buying a field. In this talk he dives into the analogy and explores just what insight it offers us as to how to live in the present through the lens of hope. He argues that the lens of ‘self denial’ is not what the analogy really is teaching us about the way our hope for the future influences our lives in the present.

Welcome to 2023 and our first Breakfast with Jesus talk for the year. in this talk Tony discusses the famous story of Jeremiah buying a field in the face of Jerusalem’s doom – a very stupid thing to do – and how this shines a light on how we might act in our lives according to the logic of hope. I position this talk inside a hot topic of modern Christendom;  the ‘end times’ and how our fascination with predicting the future has obscured the eschatological dimensions of the gospel.

Tony builds on his recent talk on the new covenant in Jeremiah by exploring how the Epistle of Hebrews uses this new covenant promise in the NT. Hebrews 8 quotes the Jeremiah passage in full – the longest OT quotation in the NT. What is interesting is how the writer uses the Jeremiah passage and takes it further by explaining how the contract based law of Moses failed to deliver what God wanted.

Leisa finishes the year off for GC with a profound summary of her doctorate on ‘hope’. It is full of gems and very relevant for an anxious and despairing world.  Her doctorate was targeted at the secular world of clinical psychology, but in this talk we get a ‘Christian’ version of this important work where Leisa can be explicit about the theological grounds for her ideas.

She aligns her work with Esther’s message on knowing as a form of desire and anticipation.

This is the second of three short talks from Gospel Conversations supporters as a response to Esther Meek's Covenant Epistemology.

Mark Ridgeway explores the thought of Esther Meek in the context of Discipleship.

He follows the contours of Covenant Epistemology, explores the practice of inviting the real and concludes with some practical recommendations for the Church.

This is the first of three short talks from Gospel Conversations supporters as a response to Esther Meek's Covenant Epistemology.

In this talk Ron Winestock addresses the big questions of the universe and how Covenant Epistemology can help us see clearly through the two levels of knowing.

Ron argues that since Isaac Newton we have emphasised the focal and discredited the subsidiary.

In this closing section of the conference Esther Meek finishes with the question, how does the Real Invite Us?

In this talk Tony explores the extraordinary declaration of the ‘new covenant’ in Jeremiah 31 and asks “What is ‘new’ about this new covenant?” He argues that is far more ‘new’ than most Christians assume:  it is a paradigm shift that overturns the very nature of contract and conditions.

Esther Meek opens the afternoon session by addressing how Love invites the Real.

In this third and final section on Subsidiary Focal Integration Esther introduces Love as key component of her Covenant Epistemology.

This is the continuation of Esther's second talk where she continues to explain the practice of Subsidiary Focal Integration with an emphasis on how the concept of Integration works. At the end of the session participants are asked to share their examples of Subsidiary Focal Integration in operation.

This is the first half of Esther's second talk where she introduces the concept of subsidiary focal integration.

This is the first lecture given by Prof Esther Meek at the Gospel Conversations conference in 2022. The talk is titled "The Crisis of Meaning".

Lots of Christian preaching frames ‘forgiveness of sins’ as the big offer of the gospel.  But this does not lead us far enough. It also implies holiness and wrath as the key attributes of God. Jeremiah 9 takes us somewhere else – the knowledge of God and his work on the earth is the end game of the gospel.  Tony unpacks these epic verses in this latest Breakfast with Jesus talk.  

Where do we put Jesus into our philosophy of knowledge?  This talk by Mark is a compacted, brilliant answer to this question. He takes Jesus out of the religious box (which limits his Lordship to morality and ritual) and positions him as Lord of the cosmos – including politics and history. To make this real for us, he takes us on a whirlwind tour of Paul and his apprehension of how Jesus had turned the world, and its categories of knowing, upside down.  Mark draws deeply on the social and culture of both first century Judaism and first century Graeco-Roman thought to make all of this grounded. This talk is really about five talks in one – but put beside Esther’s talks it establishes Jesus as Lord of all knowledge and all ways of knowing.

Tony argues that the word ‘hell’ is not only a mistranslation – which nobody can deny – but he goes on to explain how the medieval choice of this word has distorted the gospel and its impact. He takes us to Jeremiah to get closer to the real meanings of what Jesus may have meant by his use of the original word (Gehenna) that was mistranslated as ‘hell’. 

In this latest BWJ talk Tony looks at an intriguing mistranslation by the NIV of a key verse in Jeremiah 7 – and unpacks how that ‘mistranslation’ actually shines a light on the big current debate over the ‘holiness’ of God versus the ‘mercy of God’.  He puts forward this controversial claim: “if you start with the ‘holiness’ of God as his primary attribute, you can’t find your way to the true gospel.”  So where do we start?  Listen and enjoy.

Tony takes us on an intriguing literary journey in this short talk.  He compares Old Testament literature to Homer and Greek literature and explains how they offer contrasting views of reality.  He then turns this contrast onto Jeremiah and explains how Jeremiah offers the climax and the resolution to much of Kings and the anger of God in the histories. In all of this he uses the great literary text Mimesis by Eric Auerbach, who famously compared Homer and the Old Testament

In this latest Breakfast with Jesus talk Tony addresses the question of the ‘angry’ God.  No prophet captured God’s wrath quite as eloquently as Jeremiah – so we would expect the themes of retribution and judgment to dominate his views.  But Tony looks closely at the text and finds a very different view to this….  A God made vulnerable by love.

This is the third talk in our Habakkuk series, and in it Tony dives into the Exodus as an alternative paradigm on redemption.  He contrasts the very significant differences in emphasis that the Exodus paradigm of redemption introduces when compared to the Penal Substitution model.  Then he opens up the grand cosmic sweep that the Exodus model opens up – and he finishes with a very different picture of God’s wrath that Habakkuk leaves with us. In the contemporary debate over the meaning of the cross, this topic is timely and quite exciting.

In this second talk for Breakfast with Jesus Tony summarises the devastating critique by Michael Sandel on the way that Calvinism has laid the groundwork for inequality and a ‘winner/loser’ society in modern America.

Tony connects this idea to the prophet Jeremiah – strangely enough – and to the previous talk on the ‘first fruits’ model as an alternative to the included/excluded model implicit in Calvinism.

This is the first talk on our new ‘Breakfast with Jesus’ channel. We have decided to publish the first few talks on our regular channel so that you can get a feel for what Tony is intending to deliver. In due course we will move these talks to a separate podcast channel and to a separate section of the Gospel Conversations website.

In this very first talk Tony dwells on the significance of the phrase "firstfruits of his harvest" in Jeremiah.

This is our latest talk from Gospel conversations.  it was also our first face to face forum in a couple of years. Tony took us through the great minor prophet Habakkuk whom he calls the ‘Hamlet’ of the Old Testament.  Habakkuk is like Hamlet, because the whole book, all three chapters, is an extended inner dialogue between the prophet and God. It is thus not so much a book about prophecies, but a book about the mind of the prophet.  In particular it is a book about hope – and hope in dark times since Habakkuk was commenting in the dark last days of the Jewish experiment. Tony shows how the literary structure of the book, can teach us a lot about how to meditate, and how to reflect on our version of ‘dark times’, whatever they may be for us as individuals. 

Why did the wrong guy win? The Disastrous results of the rivalry between two visions of God

Gospel Conversations welcomes you to the third talk on Gregory of Nyssa between Tony Golsby-Smith and David Bentley Hart. The towering genius of Augustine casts a long and too often dark shadow over western Christianity. What would Christianity have looked like if the equal genius of Gregory had achieved such dominance? Why did the wrong guy win? Tony and David rove over these questions in a riveting conversation.

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Welcome to the second conversation between David and Tony on Gregory of Nyssa. ‘Gregory and his Sister on the Resurrection of all Humanity’ How a woman’s mind framed the gospel around the resurrection. In a sense that is the topic of David and Tony’s second conversation on Gregory of Nyssa. In this chat they discuss Gregory’s epic “On the Soul and the Resurrection’ which is structured as a dialogue between Gregory and his influential sister Macrina. In this dialogue Macrina is the teacher and Gregory is the dull and doubting learner. The context is poignant and personal as it is set in the immediate shadows of the death of their brother Basil, and in the imminent death of Macrina herself. Gregory is despondent in the face of this shadow of death. But Macrina leads him on a grand sweep from the beginning of all things in the mind of God to the end of all things in the ‘feast of the tabernacles’ when all mankind will be welcomed into the holy of holies. David explains why this is his favourite work on Gregory’s and how it builds an eschatological framework around the gospel unlike any others have since achieved.

People all over the world are rediscovering the great 4th century theologian, Gregory of Nyssa.  David Bentley Hart is an unabashed admirer of the great Cappadocian Father calling him the most innovative theologian of the early church. In this first of three interviews on Gregory’s thought and influence, David introduces us to Gregory and explains why he was the so-called ‘pillar of orthodoxy’ and yet was also a thinker who took the gospel into the widest realm of any of the church fathers.  Along the way, Tony and David compare Gregory with Coleridge, and explore the poetic eloquence which distinguished Gregory. They dive in some detail into Gregory’s masterpiece, “On the Making of Humanity” and David explains just how Gregory did nothing more profound than invent a new Christ centred anthropology – and cosmology – that rocked the ancient world.

Here is the second conversation with Mark Strom on Faith, Hope and Love as ‘ways of knowing’. Mark is on fire in this conversation.  He takes on a roller coaster ride beginning with the famous Pauline talk to the Romans on Mars Hill right through to the ‘mount Everest’ of Christ centred thinking in the hymn of Philippians 2.  Throughout this journey Mark develops a grand theme; that every human made in God’s image is grasping towards higher meaning or ‘hope’ and this includes the idol worshipping Greeks and Romans on Mars Hill but we need the story to make sense of this ‘knowledge instinct’.  The story needs an ending – because endings make sense of stories – and the incarnation of Jesus, which climaxes in his resurrection, is the ending which makes sense for everybody. True wisdom, in fact ‘all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge’ are hidden in that story. Never has that verse in Colossians been more real for me than as I listened to Mark talking here.

We are excited to welcome back to Gospel Conversations one of our old friends, Mark Strom. Mark has blessed all of us over the years with his unique grasp of big picture holistic thinking coupled with his easy accessible way of explaining all of that: in particular Mark has been a leader in taking the gospel out of its religious box and putting it into the whole framework of reality – particularly in his work on Paul where he argues that Paul was not just a great theologian but a great philosopher who changed the way the world thinks whether they are Christians or not.

In continuing our COVID style of Zoom interviews, we have arranged this series as a dialogue between Mark and Tony – not as a presentation. Our topic continues the broad theme of ‘knowledge’ which we have been pursuing. Mark gives us a big idea – that the famous description of ‘faith, hope and love’ in 1 Corinthians 13 are aspects of true knowing not merely moral qualities. With that fresh perspective he does two revolutionary things: for Christians, he gives us a new take on discipleship and for the wider world, he gives us a new take on knowledge.  

The first talk sets the scene for this big idea – as Mark and Tony explore some of the limitations of the way we modern people/Christians think about knowledge, and then the reasons why ‘knowledge’ is so central to God’s purposes for the whole of humanity, including Christians.

The modern battleground for the soul is not in fact religion - it is the field of computer science. This is because we have created the aura of 'artificial intelligence' and the end of that road seems to be that machines can think better than humans can.... if that is true (and the computer Deep Blue' did in fact beat Garry Kasparov at chess) then that implies that our mind is a machine after all. So that leaves no room for the soul, or the spirit. And indeed for God. This is the background for our world today, and for any discussions we have about our faith.  One of our colleagues in Gospel Conversations, Mark Ridgway, worked in Information Technology for his entire life, and did so at senior levels. So he has a good viewpoint on this. This is the first of two talks he has done for us within our broad theme of 'knowledge'.  In the first talk, he gives us a great overview of the development of computing as an industry - including where it has hit a brick wall. In the second talk he dives into 'artificial intelligence' and the battle raging over 'Can machines think?'

The modern battleground for the soul is not in fact religion - it is the field of computer science. This is because we have created the aura of 'artificial intelligence' and the end of that road seems to be that machines can think better than humans can.... if that is true (and the computer Deep Blue' did in fact beat Garry Kasparov at chess) then that implies that our mind is a machine after all. So that leaves no room for the soul, or the spirit. And indeed for God. This is the background for our world today, and for any discussions we have about our faith.  One of our colleagues in Gospel Conversations, Mark Ridgway, worked in Information Technology for his entire life, and did so at senior levels. So he has a good viewpoint on this. This is the first of two talks he has done for us within our broad theme of 'knowledge'.  In the first talk, he gives us a great overview of the development of computing as an industry - including where it has hit a brick wall. In the second talk he dives into 'artificial intelligence' and the battle raging over 'Can machines think?'

Welcome to a special guest for Gospel Conversations – Dr Esther Meek. Esther will be front-lining our next conference in 2021 so we decided to give us all a foretaste of her wisdom and she did not disappoint!  She explains her lifelong story as to how she began a quest for truth and reality – as a 13 year old girl in a conservative Christian family. At first she thought her deep questions were sin, but eventually she found a bigger God at the end of them. Esther has pioneered an epistemology grounded in love not data. The great European scientist and thinker, Michael Polanyi, (a favourite of Mark Strom’s from many years ago) was her doorway to a human centred view of reality. Her message is full of passion and urgency – as she explains how everyone in the modern world are ‘babies of Descartes’ and thus have absorbed a lie about the nature of reality. This introductory talk will whet your appetite for more. So let’s pray that the borders relax next year and Esther can meet with us face to face.

In their second discussion John and Tony explore the theme of ‘order’ in more depth. They agree that ‘order’ is a bigger paradigm than the ‘sin/salvation’ paradigm – and that it cannot be separated from the presence of God.  Anyone who tastes or yearns for ‘order’ is in fact tasting and yearning for God himself. John then develops order into three manifestations; rest, peace and coherence.  In John’s own words, “these all come about through God’s presence in the world (not really having much to do with salvation).  The gospel that we are to preach certainly involved Jesus died for us and our sins, but more importantly the gospel involves God’s presence in the world, the possibility of being in relationship and the rest, peace and coherence he can bring.”  This is a very stimulating discussion that offers a fresh perspective for how we might be ‘disciples’ of Christ in the world today.

Tony interviews John Walton about his theory that ‘order’ not ‘sin’ is the dominant theme of the early chapters of Genesis – and that we have in fact ‘over emphasised’ sin as the major problem that the Bible and Genesis confront.  In this free ranging conversation, Tony and John explore this new idea in some depth.  John explains how the concept of ‘order’ is anchored in Ancient Near Eastern cosmology, and Tony jumps straight across to the twenty first century and links the concept of order with design and our role as sub-creators. This interview will be very stimulating for everybody – it does not discount the role of sin in the gospel but it does subordinate it to the wider purposes of God in desiring order in the cosmos.

Part one I charted the wider landscape that Creation theology gives us – a wider landscape I argued, than what I called the ‘Redemption’ gospel.  I want to stress that the key theme was not either or choice between the two – we obviously need ‘redeeming’ or ‘saving’ and any thinking person who denies that is deceiving themselves as if humanity has no problem or blood on our collective hands…. No, my point was where does the gospel begin where does the story of the gospel begin.  And we argued that the creation gospel begins with a deep anchor in Genesis one, whereas the redemption gospel begins – de facto – in Genesis three. 

I made the point that this creation gospel is not a soft gospel.  It challenges the secular mind substantially – more substantially than the redemption gospel because its claims are wider and more stupendous. The claim of the creation gospel is that Jesus is Lord of all and there is therefore no one, no event, no system, that can claim immunity from his rule. He is not just Lord of the church, he is Lord of the cosmos. Whereas the redemption gospel feels more specialised – because it is religious.

Rev Dr Brad Jersak explores Christian knowing through Plato, Plantinga, and Paul the Apostle. This is an incredibly important topic for Christians today as most of us feel caught between the conservative ‘Biblical’ view that dominates Sydney evangelicalism, and a more liberal humanist view that seems to threaten the pillars of faith. Brad has a rich mind and insightful perspectives, including a deep understanding of the early church fathers. He will offer us a much wider paradigm of knowing and revelation that does not toss out the Bible but balances it. In so doing he will demonstrate that far from this being a dangerous liberalising of truth, we are only recapturing the dominant orthodoxy that characterised the early church.

Video: youtu.be/9RxQb7VW_yc

iTunes, Spotify, and SoundCloud: GospelConversations.com/podcast

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Poem: BrianZahnd.com/2013/09/reading-bible-right

How broad are God's plans? Tony shares his life story: from his childhood in Fiji to becoming a teacher and then, to everyone's surprise, a strategy consultant to some of Australia's largest corporations. He began to see God working everywhere and this led him to ultimately discover Christ's Cosmic Redemption—which is good news for the entire cosmos!

Video:
https://youtu.be/8fq7xvqQoHQ

Slides:
https://www.slideshare.net/gospelconversations/my-journey-into-christs-cosmic-redemptiontony-golsbysmith-217420845

iTunes, Spotify, and SoundCloud:
https://GospelConversations.com/podcast

Social Media:
https://Facebook.com/GospelConversations
https://Twitter.com/GospelConvers
https://YouTube.com/user/GospelConversations

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Brad Jersak (Feb 14th), Esther Lightcap Meek, Rikk Watts, Tony Golsby-Smith, Ron Winestock, & Leisa Aitken will help us explore "Knowing and Mystery"—2020 theme. Talks will include:
—Is Design the new theology?
—What is the Gospel's offer of hope to a postmodern world?
—Will Artificial Intelligence save humanity or make us obsolete?
—Loving to Know
—Mystery in the Quantum world
—What were Maximus the Confessor and Origen's views on Mystery?

Video:
https://youtu.be/_w2BkOKbWdk

iTunes, Spotify, and SoundCloud:
https://GospelConversations.com/podcast

Social Media:
https://Facebook.com/GospelConversations
https://Twitter.com/GospelConvers
https://YouTube.com/user/GospelConversations

Website:
https://GospelConversations.com

Gerard Manley Hopkins only lived a short life and he never published a single poem during his lifetime. However, this intense and brilliant Jesuit priest revolutionised forever how poetry was written and laid the foundations for twentieth-century poetry. He is arguably the greatest religious poet of all time, and yet some psychiatrists also believe that nobody wrote about depression with such penetrating insight as he did. He was a true manic genius. The theory of ‘inscape’ underpinned lots of his poetic philosophy and inspired such greats as Tolkien. In this talk, Tony will open up the wondrous world of Hopkins for us.

Sarah will extend our series on Poetry and Faith by taking us into the world of Samuel Taylor Coleridge, the great philosopher and poet of Romanticism, who lived at the tumultuous time of the French Revolution abroad and the Industrial Revolution at home. In the face of this tumult, Coleridge and the Romantics championed humanity, the imagination and the mystery of Nature as the source of all meaning. Coleridge, a troubled Anglican spirit, found the origin of humanity’s imagination in the great ‘I AM’ of God.

Robin's final talk in our series explores perhaps the most significant question of all: "How does a belief in universal salvation influence my life and service in the world—including things like evangelism, counselling, and taking funerals?" Robin is a pastor as well as a theologian, and he brings a wealth of practical experience to this huge question. Does universal salvation mute the gospel and just make us melt into a kind of uncritical pantheism? Robin argues that universal salvation, far from muting our voice in the world, amplifies our voice, and the many ways through which we can bless the world.

In this third talk of our Hope and Hell conference, Robin paints a sweeping picture of the story of salvation beginning with creation and ending with the eschaton. He then poses the significant question—which fits best into this picture—hell or universal salvation? This talk is quite awe-inspiring—not because it advocates universal salvation (which it does) but even more because it stretches our horizons beyond individual redemption into the purpose of the cosmos. In developing his theme, Robin draws heavily on the magnificent Patristic fathers and their grand conception of the irresistible goodness of God. 

Universal salvation raises the critically important question of how we read the Bible—or ‘hermeneutics’. That is what Robin covers in this talk. He sweeps us through a big landscape in three succinct waves—each bigger than the one before. Firstly he confronts the foreground question of biblical texts—and he makes the point that everybody has problems here. How do we reconcile God’s love with his omnipotence? He then moves onto slightly broader terrain—we need the read texts in their context BUT the meaning of the texts will often be bigger than even the author intended or realised. And finally, he finishes with a new horizon of interpretation—the future. He talks about the ‘trajectories’ of the biblical canon, which stretch beyond themselves for future generations—like ours—to articulate. He uses the development of the doctrine of the Trinity as an example. So this talk is as much about how we read the Bible as how we do or don’t find ‘universal salvation’ in the Bible.

This is the second talk from our Hope and Hell conference.

Slides:
https://www.slideshare.net/gospelconversations/hermeneutics-and-hell-by-robin-parry

Tony introduces Rev Dr Robin Parry by explaining what Gospel Conversations is all about—expanding our view of God and that means inquiring into mystery. One of the best ways to inquire is to map out the landscape of a debate—and that is exactly what Robin does in this marvellous talk. He gives us a birds-eye view of the long debate over universalism. But he goes further—and he gives us a map to navigate the territory. He defines what universalism is and is not. He explains the different pathways that have led many orthodox Christians to consider it seriously—Bible, experience, patristics, and ‘gospel logic’. This takes a lot of confusion and heat out of the debate and gives us a clear view of the topic. But it also hints at a bigger view of God, and a broader view of Christian thinking. Robin gives us the gift of years of learning and thought in one hour.

This is the first talk from our Hope and Hell Conference.

Sarah’s talk is a celebration of the glory in the mundane. That is the theme of the two wondrous Gwen Harwood poems that Sarah takes us through. But this leads naturally onto a view of the incarnation—the ultimate revealing of glory in the mundane. And Gwen Harwood pursued this glory in the mundane as a woman and mother—which leads her (and Sarah) to advocate a distinctly feminine view of incarnation and Christ. A view that Sarah brilliantly touches on in Luke’s gospel where the gentle domestic view of the women—and the mothers—seems a deliberate counterpoint to the chest-beating imperialism of the male disciples. This gorgeous talk is a work of art and will reward repeated listening.

This is the first talk in our Great Poets on the Mystery of Faith series.

Anyone who is not shocked by Quantum Theory has not understood it.
—Niels Bohr, father of Quantum Theory

Ron gives us a crash course in Quantum Theory and explains why it has profound implications for our understanding of reality and Creation's everlasting significance.

Slides:
https://www.slideshare.net/gospelconversations/how-to-design-an-eternal-universequantum-theory-implications 

Video:
https://youtu.be/N1Mg2yzeGQk

iTunes:
https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/gospel-conversations/id878549160

Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/show/2GBc4WgSRu75WDiJLM2NGh

Website:
https://www.gospelconversations.com/topics

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This is the second talk on the incarnation in which Tony develops the expansive picture of how the incarnation defines and secures the ultimate destiny of humanity. This expansive vision only makes sense in a big picture of the cosmos so that is where Tony begins. He finishes with a summary of probably the most sophisticated framework of the incarnation that the church has developed—Irenaeus' theory of recapitulation.

Tony’s latest series of talks will position Ron’s talks on Mind over Matter in a biblical context. Ron’s talks have humanised creation and reintroduced mystery to nature. In this talk, Tony's asks how does this apply to our theology of: 

• Creation?


• The relationship between man and God?


• God and the natural world?

All of these questions come to a head in our view of the Incarnation—was it a ‘detour’ or was it actually necessary as defining the destiny of all creation? Was Irenaeus right when he said that the Incarnation was necessary even without sin? This debate has been pivotal in the Christian tradition and has vast implications. Tony will overview some of the history of the debate, and then move to its implications for the Incarnation, and for the Incarnation’s implications for our topic of Mind over Matter.

In this talk, Ron puts humanity back at the centre of the cosmos. He begins by admitting that the cosmos seems to dwarf us human beings. We are intimidated by the scale of the universe and thus we can feel small. The universe’s immensity is framed by space and time: these are the dimensions that make the cosmos ‘big’ and us humans ‘small’. But then Ron explains how Einstein’s theory of relativity turned that world upside down. It turns out that light is the only constant, and space and time shrink the faster we approach the speed of light. All the time that Ron speaks, we were thinking about Jesus when he said, ‘I am the light of the world’…

Ron takes the debate over to mind vs. matter into language—which is where the mystery of mind is best revealed. He gives us a crash course in philosophy in ten minutes—and uses the colour 'red' to reveal the immense complexity in simply naming the world. The highlight though belongs to his one-year-old grandson, Levi—and he uses Levi's early experiments with words to celebrate the wonders of the mind at work through language and how we acquire it.

Is the mind a machine, or is it a soul? This is the fast emerging modern debate—which began slowly with the materialist world view but has accelerated in the era of Artificial Intelligence. At the end of this road, lies Jesus - who has set the archetype for what it means to be human—fully human. It is immensely helpful to consider this debate over the course of its history—and in this talk, this history is what Ron lays out.

This short talk climaxes our investigation of apokatastasis from a very unusual source—the book of James. James is not noted for his audacity or profundity as. theologian compared to Paul or John, but here we find possibly the most succinct summary of both the doctrine—and its consequences. Tony connects the passage to our psychology—and he does this by telling a story of his visit to the dark historical site of Port Arthur in Tasmania.

Our Hope & Hell series has raised a lot of interest; people like the ideas a lot but everyone has questions. We created a panel of three to address eight of these questions that our listeners sent in. In this talk, Ron, Andrew, and Tony give their responses in a free-flowing, exploratory, and honest dialogue. Mark Ridgway facilitates the dialogue.

As we continue to ponder the hope of 'apokatastasis', we confront some of the 'so what's' beginning with evangelism. At face value, it looks like a doctrine of 'universal salvation' makes evangelism unnecessary—why preach if everybody gets saved eventually anyway? Tony addresses this question by first changing the question—and then building a far bigger picture of 'salvation' into which we can place 'evangelism'.

Tony finally confronts the scary verses in this talk—the passages that at face value talk about hell, judgment, and wrath. Traditionally they have so gripped the dark imaginations of the church that they have totally overshadowed the even clearer verses that declare universal hope. But we need to answer the question—What do the 'Bad News' verses really say about eternal hell? What do they really tell us?

St Augustine laid the foundations for the doctrine of Hell in his epic tome the City of God. But did he get it right? Tony gives a penetrating diagnosis of where Augustine's thinking had 'code errors' that distorted the gospel and predisposed him to the idea of hell as never-ending torment. Unfortunately, the church of Rome validated his thinking and excluded the broader eschatology that we are now beginning to realise was the orthodoxy of the Patristic Fathers.

In this talk, Tony advances Gregory of Nyssa's picture of the Restitution of all things. The question of 'universal salvation' needs to fall onto a big eschatological landscape not onto a narrow one. Only then does it make sense. That is what Gregory does. Tony gives us a detailed summary of his epic eschatological vision of creation in 'On the Making of Man', which explores the profound implications of being made in the image of God.

Our second talk builds a richer view of 'judgment'. What house is God building? is a better question—and it immediately opens up a new view of judgment. Architects judge as part of their creative process. This positions 'judgment' out of the penal system and inside a creation system. Tony explores this new perspective in this talk.

We recorded the questions and discussions that followed Tony's first talk. We have not done this before, so we hope that some of you will find it valuable to hear the inquiries and comments that followed the talk.

Hell is the question we all avoid but it is the corollary of hope. How do we fit the two together? Is the traditional model of hell right? Or scriptural? Could everyone get saved in the end? Tony begins to address these vexed questions by first examining the landscape of the debate—the language and assumptions, the possibilities, the history and the problems of all the usual positions. He ends by suggesting a better question to frame our thinking.

Rikk finishes his series on Design as the new Theology in this talk. He spends time synthesising his argument thus far—that the language of design offers a fruitful lens to view the gospel because it makes sense of some of the deep paradoxes of creation like change and agency—in fact, more sense than traditional theology does. Then he concludes with a breathtaking reading of Genesis through the lens of design—which leaves us with the picture of God as the original designer.

Rikk lays out the groundwork for why 'design' is a richer angle to understand God and His work than 'theology'. Design opens up a messier world and a world where change is a good thing—which in turn challenges our traditional picture of the omnipotent and unmoving God. Instead, we find a God who is dynamic and involved in life's dramas—in fact, an incarnate God.

This series is deliberately provocative. Rikk takes us on a journey to rid ourselves of the prison of religious language and open up a broader, more accessible and more comprehensive vocabulary to both explore and express the wonders of our God and his working. He calls this 'the grammar of life'. Rikk has been on this journey personally—with great effect and he begins his talk with that personal experience.

Coleridge famously defined imagination as the human mind's replication of the divine creation of the world. In this pyrotechnic talk, Sarah unfolds Coleridge's extraordinary grasp of human creativity—and how we mirror the divine—through his touching introspective poem 'Frost at Midnight'. This poem is both a theological tour-de-force, as well as one of the great pieces of literature on the creative dynamic. Sarah completes the picture with her dynamic and passionate delivery.

How can we be confident about what we know—especially in an age of scepticism? This is the question that John addresses in this compelling talk on the 'Need to Know'. You would think that Christians are on the back foot here because we rely on faith to know—but John turns the tables on the sceptics and proves that 'radical doubt' is everybody's lot in life. Strangely this leads to the only conclusion—'radical faith' must match radical doubt. The Q and A session at the end is a treasure.

Leisa Aitken is a practising psychologist who has discovered the significance of hope in human flourishing—but equally, she has discovered the shallowness of the profession's grasp of hope. She is now advancing a doctorate to integrate the richness of Christian hope with the practice of psychology. In the first talk, she takes us on her personal journey and introduces the points of interaction between theology and psychology.

In the second half of her talk, Leisa takes us into more detail into the applications and consequences of her new frameworks of hope. This is very significant and promising, as it lays the groundwork for a new paradigm in Christian growth as well as an enriched paradigm in counselling.

Slides:

Hope: Psychology and Theologyin conversation

Moses was the most innovative designer of a social system in world history. The ten commandments sit at the heart of this design. But where does the Sabbath fit? It is the only ritualistic member of the ten words, and it seems out of date in today's world. Tony claims that in fact the Sabbath is the linchpin of the whole design, and is vitally relevant to today's world. Discover why in this talk.

Tony looks at Moses as a social designer—which is a modern way of describing his role as prophet and king/leader. And not just any designer, but arguably the most innovative social designer in history. For in fundamental ways, he laid the foundation for the modern world. How did he do it, and what can we learn from him about how we might act, out of faith, in the public space?

In this talk, Tony introduces our theme for the year—the theology of Hope lays the foundation for action in the world. But Hope has not been well understood or developed by the church over the centuries, so we have narrowed this foundation down to a mere 'return of Jesus'. Tony explains that Hope in the Bible reframes how we look at everything in reality. It thus becomes the grounds for reform, optimism, and design.

If the traditional evangelical gospel does not work for the postmodern world, what is the alternative? This is the question that Tony explores on this talk. His answer is to shift our framing of the argument from sin to creation. This does not deny sin, but it starts with a far bigger picture of the issues and one that is much more relevant to the hearts and minds of the postmodern generation.

Tony Morgan describes how he found God in Insurance. For years he was stuck in a dual carriage pathway that separated his faith from his work, but then he discovered that ‘insurance’ was not just the context for expressing his faith—it was co-working with God and thus it was true worship. Insurance also brought him face to face with one of the most imponderable areas of God at work—i.e. areas of huge natural loss.

Tony begins our Faith at Work series by stretching the scope from 'Faith at work' to 'God at work'. This immediately opens up the topic beyond the normal approaches of evangelism and ethics, to the role and nature of faith in the public space—indeed to the broad question of the relationship between the individual and the state. He gives us a broad framework with which to think about this important area in a fresh and expansive way.

Tony interviews Mark Scott about his experience of leading large organisations as a 'follower of Jesus'. Mark ran the Australian Broadcasting Commission (Australia's equivalent of the BBC) and helped it transform into the digital era. He now leads the NSW Dept of Education. How does a believer lead such large 'secular' organisations? Mark talks with remarkable candour and authenticity about how his worldviews framed his leadership and how his inner journey is fed by his highly personal walk with Jesus.

Lots of people think Iain shines best in question and answer sessions. He really ponders the questions and welcomes tough questions. He does not offer glib answers but has the gift of going behind the face value of the questions and addressing the assumptions they are making. The questions in this extended session were deep and wise—so it brought out the very best of Iain.

Iain finishes these first three talks by asking ‘So what?’ How are we expected to live in the face of the vast tension between our view of creation, and our experience of suffering and evil?  He makes a very significant claim at the start of this talk—how we frame our response to this tension will dictate our choices and views of the world and our faith. He gives us a simple but profound series of pathways to living the good life in the face of the Jerusalem view of the world—the Jerusalem Guide.

Perhaps this talk is the most radical of all the talks in this series. Having painted a wondrous picture of the Jerusalem view of creation and humanity, Iain confronts the question of evil and suffering. In fact, he claims that you simply cannot just paint a positive picture without addressing the dark side as well. How do we interpret the presence of evil and suffering in the face of Jerusalem story? Why do I say this talk is so radical? Because Iain differentiates from suffering and ‘evil’ that was caused by sin, from suffering and pain that existed in creation BEFORE the Fall and cannot be attributed to the Fall. This is a very important, bold and clarifying talk.

This talk builds the foundation for the rest of Iain's talks in this series. In it, Iain describes the critical paradigm shifts that separated the ‘Jerusalem’ story from the rest of the great philosophies of the ancient world—from Greece to Egypt to China. Despite all of their differences, these philosophies came from a common worldview—the cosmos is eternal, the cosmos is built for the gods and humans being are an afterthought who survive by serving the needs of the gods. Moses smashed this view and laid the foundation for enterprise and human rights with a ‘blue sky’ conceptual structure that was not a gradual development of these views, but a radical innovative alternative.

As always Iain shines in this important and extended question and answer session. As one participant observed to me about Iain’s ability to answer questions—‘He has the gift of understanding what the questioner was really trying to say and what lay behind the question—even if the asker could not articulate it well themselves.

This talk is a fitting climax to the grand sweep of this series. Iain finishes with ‘hope’ or the vision of the future that Jerusalem gave the world. Importantly he begins by demolishing the Greek notion of the intrinsic immortality of the soul, and he explains that this is not the vision of hope here. He grounds God’s promises of the future in the great covenants of the Bible and their increasing scope until they climax in the incarnation where God became human in order that humans might become like God forever.

This is a talk lots of us have been waiting for—what kind of position should believers take in politics? Iain confronts the fear that many people hold – ie involving faith and politics will result in a kind of ‘Christian Taliban’. Many Christians feel caught in a no-man’s land between the hard choice of involvement and detachment. We want our faith to be involved in politics and society but fear becoming hardcore fundamentalists—the ‘Christian Taliban’ comment. But we also fear to retreat into a totally private world of faith. Iain’s talk charts a brilliant third way and as such is one of the most important talks you will ever hear.

Having diagnosed the deep roots of modern thinking Iain moves on to the consequences. What are the practical implications of living within the ‘Jerusalem’ mindset? This talk is simple and profound: living with the Jerusalem legacy means building our lives around three archetypal relationships:

1. Our relationship with God and the creational vision of cosmic reality


2. Our relationship with our neighbours—where we find we ARE our brother’s keepers


3. Our relationship with the creation

The first talk from Iain Provan's series titled Seriously Dangerous Religion.

The eminent historian, Edwin Judge, takes us back to the mind of the Roman Empire as they faced the burgeoning growth of Christianity. Furthermore, he recreates the self-identity and characteristics that defined early Christianity—including that this new thing was not a 'religion' in the minds of either the Christians or the Romans. This jewel of a talk/interview merits a couple of hearings as it is packed with the depths and profundity of Edwin's lifelong journey.

Almost no doctrine is more controversial than 'original sin'. It has branded the Gospel as a dark message in the minds of many people—but most Christians just have a foggy notion of what it might mean. In this important talk, Tony challenges the mental models behind 'original sin' and then gives us a much richer model for sin—its beginnings and its imputation. Tony uses Romans 5 and the 'two Adams' to shine a better light on the topic, and then leaves us with suggestions as to how we might frame the Gospel differently in the light of these insights.

One of the great stumbling blocks to evangelism and faith is the doctrine of predestination. Calvin was the most vociferous advocate of it, and he built it around his belief in total depravity. But was he right. In this talk, Tony explains where Calvin went wrong because his frame was limited. Tony turns to Ephesians 1 and builds a much grander picture of what predestination means.

Tony looks at the prayers of the church in Revelation and compares them to the prayers of the angels. The difference shines the light on a radical humanism—because the church (i.e. humanity) sees so much more than the angels do, and is closer to the heart of God. This opens the door to a radical humanism based on the incarnation of Jesus.

In this breathtaking overview, Rikk Watts zooms across the landscape of the four gospels and puts them all in a historical and biographical context. He argues that their narrative structure is their most defining feature—and that in fact, the narrative structure implies a breakthrough new theology. His climactic point is that this structure was the brainwave of Jesus himself.

Tony keeps exploring how 'resurrection' reframes 'judgment'. In this talk, he focuses on 'inheritance' as the dominant motif for the latter part of Hebrews and develops the theme that this is a double-edged sword. It expands our vision of God's plans for us, but it also sobers us as God is trusting us with an awesome responsibility.

In our previous talks on Hebrews, we revealed the strong foundation built by Apollos through Melchizedek and the resurrection, a foundation that renders the law obsolete. Now the question is, how does he build on that? How does he build accountability, how does he build responsibility, on top of all this wondrous talk of the resurrection?

In this talk, we open a door to an expansive new paradigm, something we will continue exploring in future talks. The key to this new paradigm can be found in his extraordinary use of “the word being made perfect”. It’s a very strong theme in Hebrews, and it’s applied first to Jesus, and then to us. Just as the resurrection was first applied to Jesus, and then applies to us. He was there creating the universe, sustaining the universe.

So what mental model does Hebrews have around this claim that the divine Logos, the Christ, went through some kind of process of perfection? Being made perfect? What does this mean? If we can crack that, if we can get inside that, we’ll open a door to what our trajectory and pathway is. Because the whole argument of Hebrews is that we should fix our eyes on the Logos, on the Divine, on the Christ. As we do that the implications for our lives will become clear.

That’s the bundle of ideas in this talk. God bless you. And enjoy it.

Drawing on Nietzsche, Professor Volf will explore two pervasive and mutually reinforcing nihilisms of our time—our misplaced search for meaning, and our wrongheaded pursuit of pleasure—and counter common critiques of religion by arguing that faith in God intensifies and deepens the enjoyment of the world, uniting both meaning and pleasure.

Professor Volf will tie this in with his personal story, his speech at the UN at the time of 9/11, and his participation in the World Economic Forum’s Global Agenda Councils.

Drawing on Nietzsche, Professor Volf will explore two pervasive and mutually reinforcing nihilisms of our time—our misplaced search for meaning, and our wrongheaded pursuit of pleasure—and counter common critiques of religion by arguing that faith in God intensifies and deepens the enjoyment of the world, uniting both meaning and pleasure.

Professor Volf will tie this in with his personal story, his speech at the UN at the time of 9/11, and his participation in the World Economic Forum’s Global Agenda Councils.

Drawing on Nietzsche, Professor Volf will explore two pervasive and mutually reinforcing nihilisms of our time—our misplaced search for meaning, and our wrongheaded pursuit of pleasure—and counter common critiques of religion by arguing that faith in God intensifies and deepens the enjoyment of the world, uniting both meaning and pleasure.

Professor Volf will tie this in with his personal story, his speech at the UN at the time of 9/11, and his participation in the World Economic Forum’s Global Agenda Councils.

In this fourth talk Tony explores Hebrews 7-10 where Apollos brushes aside Moses' law as 'useless' and in its place paints an epic picture of Christ's grand entrance to the heaven of heavens after his ascension and his establishment of a new covenant between God and humanity, and his building of a true eternal tabernacle—a new created order in which matter and physicality can finally contain glory and thus commune with God freely.

In this talk we move past the grand opening of Hebrews into the guts of the argument; how Jesus is superior to the entire religious system of the law but not only that—how he has totally eclipsed the religious system of law and Moses with the 'system of the resurrection'. All of these grand themes are crystallised in the strange governing theme of 'Melchizedek'. We unpack all of that in this talk—and we also confront the scariest passage in the NT along the way! May this bless you and help transform your minds.

Hebrews opens with two very important chapters that take Jesus out of the religious box, lifting him to the Maker of the Universe. From that lofty position, Apollos makes his biggest move and uses Psalm 8 to put humanity right there beside Jesus—ruling the cosmos. Through his explorations, Tony will translate these rich theological themes into in language that speaks to our world today.

The Epistle to the Hebrews breaks new ground in the debate over religion and grace. In this talk we look at who wrote it, and what problem it is trying to solve—really important questions since it is such an alien book to us modern people in many ways. We delve into the book of Acts in detail and uncover the deep struggle between Jerusalem and Rome that defined the faith in its early days. And we find in the writer to the Hebrews, the man who arguably took over the baton of thought leadership in the early church from Paul and pushed the gospel to its natural boundaries far from the confining views of Jerusalem.

Dr Sarah Golsby-Smith will be giving her second talk on "Reading the Bible as Literature". In her first talk, she introduced us to the rich resources that a literary reading brings to the Bible. In this talk, she will take a deeper dive in Genesis and give us a more detailed picture of these exciting tools at work in a major book.

Dr Sarah Golsby-Smith takes us on a journey to discover the riches of reading the Bible using the toolkits and methods of literary analysis. She argues that Christians tend to read the Bible as an instruction manual—not literature—and this narrows its richness and indeed our view of God. Instead, she opens up the more living and vast world of reading the Bible literature.

What do we mean when we say "The Bible is the Word of God"? Does the Bible itself make this claim? In today's postmodern world we cannot afford to make glib claims like this—we need to think through what we mean. In this talk, Tony goes back to literary and rhetorical theory to lay a much stronger foundation for how we should treat the Bible, and interpret it.

To wrap up the year we structured this event differently. Instead of a talk, we had a time of dialogue structured by the question, “What areas of interest and questions have Gospel Conversations raised for you this year?”

We push the boundaries in Gospel Conversations, but often don’t have the time to explore the ideas further on the nights after the talks. We didn't aim to always arrive at clear cut answers since some topics may simply be too complex for us to come to easy conclusions about.

Following three remarkable talks by Professor Edwin Judge, Mark has been tracing Paul’s role in three great shifts in western thought and life: from Closed Cosmos to Open Cosmos, from Closed Society to Open Society, and from Closed Heart to Open Heart. In this last session, Mark will focus on how Paul’s translation of the gospel ends the obligation to the law and the grip of morality, religion, and superstition. On the back of his implicit critiques of dualism (Closed Cosmos) rank and status (Closed Society), Paul built an unprecedented vision of every person as unique, equal, and gifted. What emerges is a renewed sense of calling as an empowered agency within the world.

Last month Mark began his series building the picture of the apostle Paul’s extraordinary contribution to the shape of western thought and society. These are legacies in which we all live whatever our convictions. This month Mark focuses on how grace opened the way for a society without the markers of ethnicity, gender, status or religion, marked instead by love and gifting. Mark will also outline why he reads Paul, contrary to many scholars, as a radical advocate on behalf of women.

More and more philosophers recognise that the three giants of classical thought, and the shapers of western thought down to our day, are Plato, Aristotle and—Paul. In large part, Plato and Aristotle refined and codified a tradition much older than themselves. But Paul represents the great turning point of western thought away from the hold of classical tradition.

In three recent seminal talks, Professor Edwin Judge demonstrated how the story of Jesus implied three great shifts:

1. from Closed Cosmos to Open Cosmos


2. from Closed Society to Open Society


3. from Closed Heart to Open Heart

In three further sessions Mark, who studied with Edwin, will show how Paul’s translation of the Gospel affected these three shifts. Taking Paul out of the religious framework where many have boxed him, Mark will help us appreciate the vast, pervasive, and revolutionary impact he has had on the whole world, not just Christianity. Mark will base his sessions on Paul’s extraordinary letter to his friends living within the shadow of Caesar in Rome.

More and more philosophers recognise that the three giants of classical thought, and the shapers of western thought down to our day, are Plato, Aristotle and—Paul. In large part, Plato and Aristotle refined and codified a tradition much older than themselves. But Paul represents the great turning point of western thought away from the hold of classical tradition.

In three recent seminal talks, Professor Edwin Judge demonstrated how the story of Jesus implied three great shifts:

1. from Closed Cosmos to Open Cosmos


2. from Closed Society to Open Society


3. from Closed Heart to Open Heart

In three further sessions Mark, who studied with Edwin, will show how Paul’s translation of the Gospel affected these three shifts. Taking Paul out of the religious framework where many have boxed him, Mark will help us appreciate the vast, pervasive, and revolutionary impact he has had on the whole world, not just Christianity. Mark will base his sessions on Paul’s extraordinary letter to his friends living within the shadow of Caesar in Rome.

This month we welcome Rikk Watts from Regent College, Canada to talk on Mark's Gospel. In Gospel Conversations, we like to peel back the layers and get close to the core of what we believe. You can’t get closer to the core than Mark’s Gospel—the shortest and the first of the four biographies of Jesus. It used to be viewed as the simplest and least sophisticated of the gospels but that has changed in recent times, and now Mark is viewed more and more as a great literary text in its own right. Rikk Watts is one key thinker leading this new appreciation of Mark and of Mark's role, in giving the world its greatest every story.

• But can we believe the story?


• Is it myth or history?


• And if we can believe it, how do we read it intelligently?


• How can we get back behind two thousand years of culture to read like the world Mark wrote it for?


• How do we get a new conversation going with Mark's gospel?


• Most importantly what does Mark tell us about Jesus?


• Does he really claim that Jesus was the Son of God? If so, what did he mean by this?

Rikk will build us a breathtaking picture of Jesus, as viewed by Mark. He will peel back the layers of tradition and put us squarely in the first-century world that was first rocked by this story. But we won’t stop there, we will also ask the ‘So what?’ question.

• What are the consequences of this story?


• How should we then live?

We will answer these questions through three minds. Rikk, Mark Strom and Tony Golsby-Smith have been talking about this ‘so what’ world for years together, and this is our first opportunity to get on the same stage together. So Rikk will address it from the perspective of Mark’s gospel. Mark Strom will then address it through the window of history (How did the story change the world of the first and second centuries?). And Tony will address it through the world of a twenty-first-century business consultant encouraging large organisations and their leaders to redesign themselves. We three believe that we have put the gospel in a religious box for too long and it is time to take it out. After all, we believe that this big story changes EVERYTHING, not just church and religion.

This month we welcome Rikk Watts from Regent College, Canada to talk on Mark's Gospel. In Gospel Conversations, we like to peel back the layers and get close to the core of what we believe. You can’t get closer to the core than Mark’s Gospel—the shortest and the first of the four biographies of Jesus. It used to be viewed as the simplest and least sophisticated of the gospels but that has changed in recent times, and now Mark is viewed more and more as a great literary text in its own right. Rikk Watts is one key thinker leading this new appreciation of Mark and of Mark's role, in giving the world its greatest every story.

• But can we believe the story?


• Is it myth or history?


• And if we can believe it, how do we read it intelligently?


• How can we get back behind two thousand years of culture to read like the world Mark wrote it for?


• How do we get a new conversation going with Mark's gospel?


• Most importantly what does Mark tell us about Jesus?


• Does he really claim that Jesus was the Son of God? If so, what did he mean by this?

Rikk will build us a breathtaking picture of Jesus, as viewed by Mark. He will peel back the layers of tradition and put us squarely in the first-century world that was first rocked by this story. But we won’t stop there, we will also ask the ‘So what?’ question.

• What are the consequences of this story?


• How should we then live?

We will answer these questions through three minds. Rikk, Mark Strom, and Tony Golsby-Smith have been talking about this ‘so what’ world for years together, and this is our first opportunity to get on the same stage together. So Rikk will address it from the perspective of Mark’s gospel. Mark Strom will then address it through the window of history (How did the story change the world of the first and second centuries?). And Tony will address it through the world of a twenty-first-century business consultant encouraging large organisations and their leaders to redesign themselves. We three believe that we have put the gospel in a religious box for too long and it is time to take it out. After all, we believe that this big story changes EVERYTHING, not just church and religion.

This month we welcome Rikk Watts from Regent College, Canada to talk on Mark's Gospel. In Gospel Conversations, we like to peel back the layers and get close to the core of what we believe. You can’t get closer to the core than Mark’s Gospel—the shortest and the first of the four biographies of Jesus. It used to be viewed as the simplest and least sophisticated of the gospels but that has changed in recent times, and now Mark is viewed more and more as a great literary text in its own right. Rikk Watts is one key thinker leading this new appreciation of Mark and of Mark's role, in giving the world its greatest every story.

• But can we believe the story?


• Is it myth or history?


• And if we can believe it, how do we read it intelligently?


• How can we get back behind two thousand years of culture to read like the world Mark wrote it for?


• How do we get a new conversation going with Mark's gospel?


• Most importantly what does Mark tell us about Jesus?


• Does he really claim that Jesus was the Son of God? If so, what did he mean by this?

Rikk will build us a breathtaking picture of Jesus, as viewed by Mark. He will peel back the layers of tradition and put us squarely in the first-century world that was first rocked by this story. But we won’t stop there, we will also ask the ‘So what?’ question.

• What are the consequences of this story?


• How should we then live?

We will answer these questions through three minds. Rikk, Mark Strom, and Tony Golsby-Smith have been talking about this ‘so what’ world for years together, and this is our first opportunity to get on the same stage together. So Rikk will address it from the perspective of Mark’s gospel. Mark Strom will then address it through the window of history (How did the story change the world of the first and second centuries?). And Tony will address it through the world of a twenty-first-century business consultant encouraging large organisations and their leaders to redesign themselves. We three believe that we have put the gospel in a religious box for too long and it is time to take it out. After all, we believe that this big story changes EVERYTHING, not just church and religion.

This month we welcome Rikk Watts from Regent College, Canada to talk on Mark's Gospel. In Gospel Conversations, we like to peel back the layers and get close to the core of what we believe. You can’t get closer to the core than Mark’s Gospel—the shortest and the first of the four biographies of Jesus. It used to be viewed as the simplest and least sophisticated of the gospels but that has changed in recent times, and now Mark is viewed more and more as a great literary text in its own right. Rikk Watts is one key thinker leading this new appreciation of Mark and of Mark's role, in giving the world its greatest every story.

• But can we believe the story?


• Is it myth or history?


• And if we can believe it, how do we read it intelligently?


• How can we get back behind two thousand years of culture to read like the world Mark wrote it for?


• How do we get a new conversation going with Mark's gospel?


• Most importantly what does Mark tell us about Jesus?


• Does he really claim that Jesus was the Son of God? If so, what did he mean by this?

Rikk will build us a breathtaking picture of Jesus, as viewed by Mark. He will peel back the layers of tradition and put us squarely in the first-century world that was first rocked by this story. But we won’t stop there, we will also ask the ‘So what?’ question.

• What are the consequences of this story?


• How should we then live?

We will answer these questions through three minds. Rikk, Mark Strom and Tony Golsby-Smith have been talking about this ‘so what’ world for years together, and this is our first opportunity to get on the same stage together. So Rikk will address it from the perspective of Mark’s gospel. Mark Strom will then address it through the window of history (How did the story change the world of the first and second centuries?). And Tony will address it through the world of a twenty-first-century business consultant encouraging large organisations and their leaders to redesign themselves. We three believe that we have put the gospel in a religious box for too long and it is time to take it out. After all, we believe that this big story changes EVERYTHING, not just church and religion.

Edwin Judge interviewed by Tony-Golsby-Smith:

• What does it mean to be a human being?


• What does it mean to be a good human being?

Edwin will challenge some of our basic assumptions around these 2 central questions. He will challenge the view that the immortality of the soul is a basic Christian belief and the view that all values are much the same and arise from mere common sense.

Dr Tony Golsby-Smith interviews Professor Edwin Judge on the history of the open society that we take for granted. He argues that without understanding the origin of our freedom, we are in danger of losing it.

This month Tony Golsby-Smith interviews Edwin Judge. As one of Australia’s most admired History professors, Edwin offers us an invaluable perspective on one of the most important and misunderstood topics of our time—the fraught relationship between science and faith. He turns the tables upside down on the commonly accepted view that the Greeks gave us science but Christianity screwed that up with the myths of faith. This rich philosophical talk is a must for anyone who suspects that you can believe without losing your mind… but would like some more facts to be sure.

Ron finishes his series on Tzimtzum with a stunning and simple talk on Jesus as the ultimate expression of God's 'Tzimtzum' character. But Tzimtzum is about more than character—it is about how God works. So Ron paints a gorgeous picture of Jesus as Governor of the created order—and our invitation to sit beside him. This is rare and profound material. Ron's framework of God could well have spared the early church their vexed debates on exactly what the 'divinity' of Jesus means.

Ron continues his talk on Tzimtzum. With an introduction from Tony, we look for an articulation of the wonder of what Christ has done with a logic that is not rooted in sin and redemption.

This talk will expand your horizons and blow your minds—in a good way. Ron, building on his Jewish heritage, begins with Job and the complexity of life. It isn't straightforward or fair. He then traces how the great Jewish thinkers combed through the OT for centuries looking for answers to Job's big questions. They came up with the brilliant concept of 'Tzimtzum' around the 11th century AD. In essence—it means God's greatness manifests itself in containment and concealment, not explosive 'power'. Elijah's still small voice. We finish with a picture of God that seems to point straight to Jesus and the mystery of the Cross. You will have to listen a couple of times!!

What do we mean by calling the Bible 'The Word of God'? In this talk, Tony addresses this question from first principles. He steps right back and begins with God's intention to communicate. From there he builds a model of revelation that begins with history and the great Jewish belief that their God participates in this narrative of life. From there he explains the second layer—people commenting on the history in the form of texts. And all of this is in pursuit of the third layer—the knowledge of God for the purpose of relating to him. Having constructed a grand architecture like this, Tony repositions the Bible as part of the plan, not the whole plan.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

John is Professor of Old Testament at Wheaton College. He has pioneered the study of Ancient Near Eastern cosmology and its impact on our understanding of the Old Testament—and the work of Moses and Genesis in particular. This kind of study has only been possible in recent years as vast treasures of ancient texts and inscriptions are being discovered and translated. The result is that we understand the cosmology of ancient peoples in far more depth than previous generations.

In this talk, we look at the 'normative' aspect of Trinity thinking. Our learning goal is to have our minds transformed to God's agenda rather than ours. We look at the typical evangelical interpretation of the gospel and reveal its shortcomings. Tony does that by synthesising the four spiritual laws onto a one-page architecture which reveals its shortcomings. He then asks, "Is there a better way?" and finishes by offering an alternative framing of the gospel that blows open the scope of Christ's achievement and lifts our thinking to awesome heights. A must listen talk!!

Tony argues that we have narrowed Christian growth by framing it as a religious effort. He spends the first part of this talk, diagnosing the religious mindset and explaining how it distorts the gospel. But the question becomes, "Is there a better way to frame our growth journey?" Tony turns to the structure of the Trinity as the architecture for what makes us truly human and thus truly Christlike. He offers a simple but powerful Trinitarian model to guide our growth agenda—as a life agenda rather than a religious agenda.

Ron moves on to the topic of cosmology—ie what is the origin of the universe. This is mind-boggling stuff and dwarfs the more conventional 'evolution' debates. He explains the anthropic principle that is fast emerging among scientists and which is ironically putting this little old earth back at the centre of attention. He describes the earth as the ark of humanity—a wonder of life in the midst of a barren universe. He contrasts the scientific view of cosmology with the Jewish view. Listen for some of the great discussion here—particularly as we develop the metaphor of the car to explain all of this.

Ron confronts the question, "How well does Genesis 1 fit in with the new science?" Most people wonder whether Genesis fits with evolution, but Ron takes a far broader view and compares the implications of Genesis with cosmology—the theory of relativity and the origins of the universe. He concludes that Genesis is surprisingly modern, although it does not try to be a science textbook. Then he compares the whole secular and Greek view of reality with its great rival the Jewish tradition—a topic he will develop in his next talk.

In this talk, Tony opens up how the doctrine of the Trinity frames our whole role in creation. The creating God has mandated that we humans will continue his expansive work in creation. We can only do this, by sharing his nature, which equips us to be Trinitarian agents. This culminates in the rule of God. Tony then suggests how this stupendous framework challenges the agenda for sin-based Christianity. He declares that we need to reframe the agenda of the Christian life away from religion towards co-creation.

This is part two of Tony's talk on the Trinity and creativity. Having established the intrinsical creativity character of the Trinity, he moves onto the role of humanity in this creative process as 'trinitarian agents'. At the end of the talk, he addresses the question of the role of sin and the 'Fall' in this otherwise optimistic and expansive picture. Again, a set of Powerpoint slides accompanies this talk (see the slides called 'Trinitarian agents'.

This talk comes in two parts. In this the first part, Tony outlines why the creative act lies at the heart of the Trinitarian Godhead. He bases this part of the talk on Jonathan Edwards' great essay "The Ends for which God Created the Worlds". Look out for a very important interaction with Mark Strom towards the end of the talk, which turns the Christian engagement with the world on its head - from 'application' to 'discovery'. There are Powerpoint slides to accompany the talk which are on the website, so use them as you listen. Enjoy!

Tony introduces 'language' as the archetypal view of the Trinity. He argues that the 'Trinity' is the utterly novel invention of the Christian church - it is an enigma that is unique and central to the Christian belief system. We do well to peer into it. He explains how the doctrine developed in the fourth century, and then how it slipped into neglect after the Reformation. The climax of the talk is the stunning moves Jonathan Edwards made to not only recover the Trinity but to lift the whole debate to a new breathtaking level. This new view radically reshapes how we look at creation and ourselves. Listen to the talk with the accompanying Powerpoint slides.

Ron takes his discussion of the new physics beyond matter to mind and language. Is matter the ultimate reality? Last time we discovered there is more mystery to matter than most people realise. But this time we move into the even more important question of whether matter is the only building block of the universe - or whether the mind and language, are just as primary as matter. Of course, it suits materialists like Dawkins to say that matter is the only real stuff. But Ron challenges that view here. He introduces us to the 400-year-old debate over this topic and shows how inadequate a 'matter is all that matters' view really is.

Ron opens up for us the wonder of the ‘new physics’ that restored mystery to matter in the 20th century. If you think that we get more concrete, the closer we get to atoms and molecules, you will never think that way again after hearing Ron’s talk. In fact the closer we get to matter—the little ‘bits’ of it, the closer we get to mystery and strangeness. Please note that Ron used an extensive set of Powerpoint slides to support his talk. We have posted these slides on the Gospel Conversations website so you can follow the slides through as you listen to his talk.

Mark explains how the knowledge of good and evil (morality and binary thinking) has captured our minds and distorts Christianity into a religion rather than life. A mind-blowing and life-changing message.