Heroes & Humans of Football

Emma Hayes, one of the most influential figures in women's football, is embarking on a new chapter in her illustrious career. After 12 transformative years as the manager of Chelsea Women, Hayes is set to take on the role of head coach for the United States Women's National Team (USWNT). This episode explores Hayes' remarkable journey, her impact on the sport, and the legacy she leaves behind at Chelsea.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction to Emma Hayes and her career transition

02:30 - Hayes' early life and journey into football management

05:15 - Building Chelsea Women from the ground up

09:45 - Hayes' coaching philosophy and leadership style

14:30 - Pioneering approaches to women's health in football

18:20 - Major achievements and trophies at Chelsea

22:10 - Personal challenges and growth as a leader

26:35 - Hayes' impact on the professionalisation of women's football

30:50 - The move to USWNT and future aspirations

34:15 - Legacy at Chelsea and in women's football

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By joining our official H&H Supporters Club on Patreon, you’ll unlock access to behind-the-scenes sneak peeks, bonus content, and special Q&A sessions with your hosts, Mehreen and Simon. Whether you're looking for deeper insights into football’s biggest personalities or just can’t wait for the next episode, we’ve got something for you.

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In this special episode before the Euro 2024 final between Spain and England, Mehreen Khan and Simon Kuper answer your questions about the heroes and humans featured in the tournament. They discuss the performances of key players, why France and England have been so boring, and the perennial issues of politics, race and multiculturalism that have been a constant over the last month. Will Gareth Southgate’s controversial tenure be extended ? And why has Jude Bellingham evolved from golden boy to internet meme? How did the Netherlands go from Johan Cruyff to Wout Weghorst? And Simon refuses to self-sabotage by predicting who will win Sunday's final, but they do argue about Spain and England.

Don't forget to get in touch to add your thoughts on the heroes and humans of Euro 2024 via social media @heroesandhumans. 

Timestamps:

00:22 Special episode ahead of Euro 2024 final between Spain and England

00:45 Simon's experiences in Germany and reflections on the Dutch team

03:18 Talking about the final, Spain, and England

05:29 Question about Didier Deschamps staying on as French national team manager

06:24 Discussion about Gareth Southgate's future with England

13:39 Comparison of Spain and England's team compositions for the final

16:15 Political activism in football: French players' stance against the far-right

21:21 Analysis of Jude Bellingham's public perception and "villain arc"

28:28 Analysis of Euro 2024 compared to past tournaments

34:13 Question about the impact of urban planning on footballing styles

38:28 Discussion on playing styles in Euro 2024 including the Dutch shift to long-ball tactics

41:21 Predictions and analysis for the Spain vs England final

44:25 Final question about explaining Johan Cruyff to children at Taylor Swift concerts

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In this special pre-Euro 2024 final episode, Mehreen and Simon delve into the stories of Lamine Yamal and Nico Williams, the two young stars who have lit up the tournament and represent a new, diverse Spain. They discuss the remarkable journeys of these players, their backgrounds, and the societal and cultural implications of their success. From Yamal's record-breaking goal to Williams' impactful presence on the field, this episode is about football and so much more.

Timestamps:

00:00:29 - Introduction to Lamine Yamal and Nico Williams

00:02:23 - Background on Lamine Yamal's early life and football journey

00:12:00 - Nico Williams' incredible family story and his rise in football

00:20:02 - Discussion on the significance of Yamal and Williams in modern Spain

00:26:35 - Analysis of their playing styles and contributions to the Spanish team

00:31:58 - Historical context and comparisons with past Spanish teams

00:35:03 - Issues of race and identity in Spanish football and society

00:45:07 - The future prospects of Yamal and Williams

00:50:29 - Closing thoughts and reflections on Spain's new era in football

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Fifty years ago this week, Johan Cruyff took one of the most exciting teams in football history to the 1974 World Cup final. But his Holland lost to West Germany, largely because of what has gone down in Dutch history as “The Swimming Pool Affair” – a German tabloid’s front-page scoop that cost Cruyff great anguish and many hours in a phone booth calling his furious wife. We tell the story of Dutch “total football”, of the rock-star team that lived it large both on the field and off it, of the manager who was simultaneously coaching FC Barcelona, and of Johan Cruyff himself: the man who invented modern football, and fought with everybody, including with his biggest fan, Simon. 

Timestamps:

00:00:29 - Introduction to the story of the 1974 Dutch national team and Johan Cruyff

00:02:23 - Explanation of the Dutch team's revolutionary playing style

00:03:19 - Background on the development of "total football" in Amsterdam

00:08:18 - Discussion of Cruyff's upbringing and early career with Ajax

00:10:05 - Cruyff's childhood and the impact of his father's death

00:11:30 - Introduction of Rinus Michels as Ajax manager

00:14:01 - Development of Ajax's new playing style under Michels and Cruyff

00:15:29 - Description of the dynamic between Cruyff and Michels

00:19:07 - Lead-up to the 1974 World Cup and the Dutch team's preparations

00:24:36 - Context of the 1974 World Cup in West Germany

00:27:02 - Description of the Dutch team's behaviour during the World Cup

00:28:17 - Cruyff's unconventional decisions in team selection

00:30:31 - Discussion of the Dutch team's appearance and iconic orange jerseys

00:33:03 - Description of the Dutch team's revolutionary playing style in action

00:36:07 - The "swimming pool affair" and its impact on Cruyff before the final

00:43:03 - The World Cup final against West Germany

00:45:55 - Aftermath of the final and Dutch reaction to finishing second

00:47:20 - Legacy of the 1974 Dutch team and Cruyff's impact on football

00:49:28 - Simon's experience interviewing Cruyff years later and subsequent fallout

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The Afghan women’s national team doesn’t exist – not according to FIFA, anyway. The Taliban banned women's football when they took control of Afghanistan in 2021, forcing the team to flee the country for fear of their lives. But FIFA now refuses to recognise the team in exile, allowing the Taliban to continue their gender apartheid. Today, the team is fighting for FIFA recognition and their place in football. Living in exile and risking their lives to play football, the Afghan women's players are determined to return to the international game.

Mehreen and Simon talk to Khalida Popal, the woman who defied the country's misogynistic norms to set up the national team. She became the first female captain, coach, and executive in Afghanistan's history. This is a story of a team’s courage and comradery in the face of death threats and sexual assaults.

To support the Afghan women's team in their fight for recognition, you can sign this petition and follow Khalida Popal on LinkedIn: 

https://www.change.org/p/fifacom-standwithafghanwomen-recognise-afghanistan-women-s-national-football-team-in-exile-follow-alivekicking23

https://www.linkedin.com/in/khalida-popal-64a29176?originalSubdomain=dk

Timestamps:

00:00:02 - Introduction to the episode about Afghanistan's women's football team

00:03:47 - Khalida Popal joins to discuss founding the team

00:03:55 - Growing up in Afghanistan before the Taliban

00:05:09 - Early exposure to football in Afghanistan 

00:06:09 - Returning to Afghanistan after 2001 and facing resistance to women playing football

00:08:56 - Setting up a girls' football team at school despite challenges

00:12:51 - Men discover and threaten the girls playing football

00:14:57 - Story of a teammate forced to stop playing by her family

00:18:06 - Establishing the Afghan women's national team

00:21:07 - Negotiating with the Afghan Football Federation for recognition

00:25:16 - Difficulties of managing the national team and facing abuse

00:30:10 - Fleeing Afghanistan due to death threats

00:33:56 - Evacuating players as Taliban returned to power in 2021

00:41:29 - Current players describe obstacles they faced playing in Afghanistan

00:43:01 - Players' experiences when Taliban took over in 2021

00:45:04 - Campaign for FIFA to recognise the exiled Afghan women's team

00:48:03 - FIFA's lack of response to requests for recognition

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It's bizarre how long it took Argentinians to learn to love Leo Messi. His exile from his declining homeland always made him suspect. The comparison with Maradona hung over him from the start. And why was he hardly ever as good for Argentina as he was for Barcelona? We tell the story of the world's best player's complex relationship with his own country, and how it finally had a happy end.

Timestamps:

00:00:02 - Introduction

00:01:18 - Messi's fraught relationship with Argentina

00:06:24 - Messi as the embodiment of the Pibe archetype

00:11:36 - Messi's early international career and struggles with Argentina

00:18:52 - 2014 World Cup and Argentina's attempt at a "Messi strategy"

00:24:06 - 2014 World Cup disappointment and Messi's frustrations

00:29:19 - Psychoanalysis of Messi's perceived lack of Argentinian-ness

00:36:58 - Messi finally wins Copa America in 2021

00:39:35 - 2022 World Cup in Qatar and initial struggles

00:40:24 - Argentina's resurgence and Messi's leadership

00:42:15 - Winning the 2022 World Cup as a team

00:44:26 - Messi's place in Argentinian history compared to Maradona

00:46:10 - Speculation on Messi's life without football

00:48:02 - Would the hosts want to hang out with Messi?

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Gareth Southgate's tactical and managerial qualities still split fan opinion as he leads England in his fourth major tournament at the Euros in Germany this summer. But one thing that can't be disputed is Southgate's ability to unite his players in a team whose confidence has been battered by two decades of under-achievment. The former Aston Villa captain has been a leading voice against racism directed at young black English players and is arguably redefining the notion of Englishness in modern Britain. 

Simon and Mehreen discuss the steps and experiences that how Southgate came to manage another golden generation of English footballers, growing up in a respectable family in South London, learning from the negatives, and bouncing back from *that* penalty miss in Euro '96. But will Gareth Southgate go down in history as a unifying England manager or just another nearly-ran? 

Timecodes:

00:00:43 - Proposition: Gareth Southgate is a very laudable, commendable figure, but is he a national hero or overhyped mediocrity?

00:02:22 - Southgate's background and upbringing in Crawley

00:05:52 - Joining Crystal Palace as an apprentice and experiencing class division

00:08:31 - Southgate's playing career at Palace, Villa, and Middlesbrough

00:12:04 - First meeting with Southgate and the Euro 1996 penalty miss

00:19:25 - John Major's encouragement after the penalty miss

00:22:22 - Southgate's unfulfilled club career and disappointment

00:27:56 - Becoming England manager in 2016 after a national humiliation

00:33:06 - Resetting expectations and creating a high-performance culture

00:39:20 - 2018 World Cup and learning to love the new England team

00:43:16 - Black Lives Matter movement and Southgate's stance

00:50:00 - Euro 2020 final against Italy and the penalty misses

00:54:10 - Expectations for the 2022 World Cup and Southgate's limitations

01:00:22 - Southgate's vision of an inclusive and modern Englishness

01:04:34 - Conclusion and Southgate's potential legacy

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On the eve of Euro 2024, Henry talks about nearly 30 years of dealing with England managers and players, from Glenn Hoddle to Harry Kane - with some very kind words for Jack Grealish.

Henry Winter is one of the best known and most respected journalists in the English language. Having covered football for over 38 years, conducted over 1500 interviews, and attended thousands of matches, Henry might have a story or two to share. In this episode, we talk to Henry about football journalism, how it's changed over the decades, and the rise of modern media, as well as how he navigates the complicated relationships that journalists have with players and managers.

Timestamps:

00:13:06 Discussion about how football clubs and players are doing more community work than the government, particularly during the COVID-19 pandemic.

00:16:22 Reflection on the changing relationship between football players and the press, from adversarial in the past to more cooperative now.

00:17:14 Discussion on the growth of fan-related content and how it reflects fans' frustration with mainstream media.

00:21:28 Admission of making a mistake by making fun of Ronaldo's weight on Twitter, learning a lesson about not personalising criticism.

00:22:39 Reflection on the moral substance of many football players, particularly in contrast to politicians.

00:27:14 Discussion about the most interesting people to meet in football, including Sir Alex Ferguson, Pele, and Jurgen Klopp.

00:29:57 Talk about who is best at discussing football itself, mentioning Glenn Hoddle and other players who didn't have much pace but became good managers.

00:30:56 Question about who one would be happy never to see again, with a reluctant mention of FIFA president Gianni Infantino.

00:31:33 Suggestion: Jurgen Klopp is one of the most misunderstood people in football, with more science behind his emotional style than people realise.

00:33:34 Discussion about England's chances in Euro 2024, praising players like Jude Bellingham, Phil Foden, and Declan Rice.

00:34:48 Talk about how social media affects players' mental health, with many going off social media due to abuse and intensity.

00:36:52 Pondering what one would be doing if not a football writer, suggesting possibly stacking shelves at Selfridges.

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Jude Bellingham could go down as the best English player to never play in the Premier League, but how did he go from a shy and polite young boy from Stourbridge, to an integral part of Real Madrid's push for the Champions League title this season?

This episode describes the careful and precise decisions of Jude Bellingham's career so far that have led him to the biggest stage of world football, despite still being 20 years old. From the thinking behind his shirt number at Birmingham, to rejecting England's biggest clubs in favour of a move to Germany. 

Timestamps:

00:00:00 - Introduction to the podcast episode on Jude Bellingham.

00:02:07 - Discussing Bellingham being compared to the fictional character Roy of the Rovers.

00:07:00 - Bellingham's background and upbringing in Birmingham.

00:10:12 - Insights from Bellingham's youth coach Paul Robinson on coaching him at Birmingham City.

00:16:13 - Bellingham's decision to join Borussia Dortmund instead of clubs like Manchester United and Chelsea.

00:22:48 - Bellingham's time at Borussia Dortmund and his relationship with players like Erling Haaland.

00:29:27 - Bellingham's performance at the 2022 World Cup in Qatar.

00:32:07 - Bellingham's transfer to Real Madrid in 2023.

00:41:44 - Bellingham's incredible goalscoring form for Real Madrid in his first season.

00:49:54 - Discussion on Bellingham's potential legacy and future.

00:57:20 - The rising trend of incredibly talented young footballers emerging at a very young age.

01:05:00 - Speculating on what profession Bellingham could have pursued if not football.

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Carlo Ancelotti, son of poor Italian farmers, could be about to win a record fifth Champions League with Real Madrid. That’s pretty good for a guy whose managerial career started with him refusing to sign Roberto Baggio. This episode describes how the nicest man in football learned how to handle the egomaniacs around him, give players the power, and always made sure that everybody ate well together. The secrets of “quiet leadership” all around the world, from the coach whose own role model is Vito Corleone.

Timestamps:

0:00 - Introduction to the episode on Carlo Ancelotti

0:29 - Ancelotti's background as a player and coach who won multiple Champions Leagues

2:21 - Ancelotti's qualities of being funny and having empathy

2:59 - Ancelotti's early life and family background in a farming village in Italy

6:22 - Ancelotti's time playing for Arrigo Sacchi's revolutionary AC Milan team

9:27 - How Ancelotti dealt with egos like Silvio Berlusconi as a player at Milan

11:51 - Ancelotti's early coaching jobs and transition to a more flexible style

14:50 - Ancelotti getting fired just before halftime at Juventus 

16:31 - Ancelotti's successful stint at AC Milan as a manager winning the Champions League

19:00 - Ancelotti's time at Chelsea and getting fired in the tunnel after winning the double

22:19 - Ancelotti building Paris Saint-Germain into a top club after their takeover

25:39 - How Ancelotti managed egos like Zlatan Ibrahimovic at PSG

28:19 - Ancelotti's first stint at Real Madrid and his relationship with Cristiano Ronaldo  

34:49 - Ancelotti's short tenures at Bayern Munich, Napoli and Everton

36:57 - Ancelotti breaking his Champions League wins record in his second Real Madrid stint

39:41 - Ancelotti's empathetic man-management style with players like Vinicius Jr, Bellingham

44:13 - Ancelotti potentially becoming Brazil's next manager

46:27 - Discussion on Ancelotti's leadership style and legacy

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Mohammed bin Salman may be the most influential person in global football, even though he doesn’t seem to like the game. In 2021, the Saudi millennial crown prince became the ultimate owner of Newcastle United, when the Premier League club was bought by Saudi Arabia’s sovereign wealth fund. The country’s de facto leader is also pumping billions into the Saudi Pro League, where Cristiano Ronaldo and Neymar are on the crown’s payroll.

MBS is almost certain to win the ultimate prize of hosting the FIFA World Cup in 2034, and probably also the Women’s World Cup 2035 – despite Saudi Arabia’s not very woman-friendly reputation. All this for a man who seems to have never taken an interest in football, neither as a fan nor as a player.

In 2014, hardly anyone even in Saudi Arabia had heard of him. How did he go from a nobody to the most powerful ruler in the country’s history? And why did he then jump into football? Mehreen and Simon chart the life of a once unremarkable, and not very wealthy, lowly prince, who has risen to become the most authoritarian leader in Saudi’s modern history.

It’s a story of a rapid rise to the top, dictatorial power, extra-judicial killings, and trillions of dollars that are being deployed to refashion the Saudi economy. With his nation’s petrodollars, MbS is now taking over golf, Formula 1, and even snooker. But MbS’s most controversial foray into global sport is the world’s most popular game.

Why is MBS in football, and will he stay?

Timestamps:

00:01:04 - Introducing Mohammed bin Salman (MBS)

00:01:32 - Mehreen discusses her connection to Saudi Arabia as a Muslim

00:03:02 - Discussion of MBS's background and rise to power in Saudi Arabia

00:06:44 - MBS locking up his own mother early in his reign

00:08:25 - MBS's attempts to modernise and reform Saudi Arabia

00:12:19 - MBS's envy of Qatar hosting the 2022 World Cup

00:14:13 - MBS's appearance at the 2018 World Cup opening match in Russia

00:16:15 - The murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi by Saudi agents

00:20:28 - MBS's decision to host the 2034 and likely 2035 World Cups in Saudi Arabia

00:23:24 - MBS's purchase of Newcastle United FC

00:28:10 - Saudi investments in bringing star players to the Saudi Pro League

00:32:42 - Analysis of MBS's motivations for investing heavily in football/sports

00:39:19 - Comparing MBS to Roman Abramovich's ownership of Chelsea FC

00:42:37 - What career MBS might have had if not a Saudi prince

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Jürgen Klopp resigns as Liverpool manager this month after a nine-year love affair with the club and city, where he became practically a benign cult leader. Above and beyond the Champions League and English title that he won with his “Heavy metal football”, he offered a model of leadership so lacking in our time. 

The most charismatic manager in football—those teeth visible from outer space, that laugh, that way with words—won't be forgotten. In this episode, we tell Klopp’s story, from his origins in the Black Forest through a long career as an unskilled lower-division footballer to finding his vocation in coaching. We ask: How can we all be a little bit like Jürgen Klopp? And what might he do next?

Timestamps:

00:57 Reflecting on Jurgen Klopp's final days at Liverpool after a nine-year tenure.

01:26 Speculation on Klopp's next steps post-Liverpool.

01:45 Discussion on Klopp's transformation in appearance and style over the years.

03:21 Praise for Klopp's human qualities and leadership style.

04:07 Summary of Klopp's career achievements with Mainz, Dortmund, and Liverpool.

05:22 Insights into Klopp's challenging childhood and relationship with his father.

06:30 Exploration of Klopp's cultural and regional background from Swabia, Germany.

07:23 Klopp's spending habits and moral stance on financial matters in football.

10:46 Transition of Klopp from a player to a coach at Mainz.

11:32 Initial scepticism and humour around Klopp's appointment as Mainz manager.

16:12 Klopp's rise to fame in Germany through television during the 2006 World Cup.

18:00 Klopp's emotional farewell from Mainz.

19:44 Klopp's move to Dortmund and his impact there.

23:44 Klopp's personal approach to managing and connecting with people at Dortmund.

28:33 Klopp's eventual move to Liverpool and the cultural fit with the city.

32:41 Klopp's first press conference at Liverpool, where he calls himself "the normal one."

35:42 Klopp's impact at Liverpool, leading to a Champions League win and a Premier League title.

39:52 Klopp's energetic and emotional celebration style.

46:01 Liverpool's comeback against Barcelona in the Champions League semi-final.

49:56 Discussion on Klopp's decision to leave Liverpool at the end of the 2023–2024 season.

57:31 Speculation about Klopp's future after leaving Liverpool and his potential impact outside of football.

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Hakan Şükür is Turkey’s greatest ever footballer, highest goalscorer, and still the man who holds the record for scoring the fastest goal in a World Cup after just 11 seconds in 2002. But for the last nine years, he’s been living in self-imposed exile in the US, moonlighting as an Uber driver, and having his legacy wiped from the records of Turkish football history. Turkey’s ruling AKP party has branded him a “terrorist”, and even saying his name on TV can get you the sack, as one commentator found out during the Qatar World Cup. 

This is the story of a footballing hero who has suffered a humbling fall caused by politics, upheaval and a failed coup in Turkey. Şükür, whose father was born in Bosnia and his mother in North Macedonia, helped Turkey finish third in the 2002 World Cup and led his Galatasaray team to a UEFA Cup triumph in 2000 – the first European trophy won by a Turkish domestic side and the high watermark of Turkish football this century. Known as the “Bull of the Bosphorus” for his goal-scoring instincts, Şükür combined his football career with membership of Turkey’s Hizmet movement, a religious organisation led by Islamic scholar, Fethullah Gulen, which has been dubbed as part of Turkey’s “deep state”. The movement recruited lawyers, civil servants, politicians and footballers – and were active in the Galatasaray changing room in the 2000s, says author and anthropologist John McManus. 

During the 90s and 2000s, Şükür is a Turkish superstar, and Gulen is allied with Turkey’s Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the leader of the conservative AKP party, who became prime minister in 2003 and the country’s current president. After retiring from football in 2007, Şükür became a member of parliament for Erdogan’s party while retaining his Gulen affiliations, but claims he was always a reluctant politician. In 2013, Gulen and Erdogan have a spectacular fall-out and Şükür, a national hero, is caught in the middle of an internecine struggle for power and influence in Turkey. In 2015, he flees to the US after being prosecuted over a tweet which “insults the president”. Şükür would never return to his homeland. 

The episode charts the spectacular cancellation of a footballing icon whose political allegiances put him on the wrong side of an increasingly authoritarian government. In telling his story, Simon and Mehreen attempt to uncancel Hakan Şükür.

Timestamps:

00:00 - Introduction to the episode on Hakan Şükür

01:23 - Simon's first impression of watching Şükür play for Turkey

02:00 - Şükür's peak at the 2002 World Cup  

04:25 - Şükür's background and early career

06:25 - The "Welcome to Hell" match between Galatasaray and Manchester United

11:23 - Şükür's performance at the 2002 World Cup, including scoring the fastest ever World Cup goal

14:04 - Explanation of the Gulen movement and Şükür's involvement

23:54 - How Şükür likely got recruited into the Gulen movement  

27:52 - Şükür's career after retirement and move into politics

31:04 - Breakdown of Şükür's relationship with Erdogan starting in 2013

34:15 - The failed 2016 coup attempt and Şükür being branded a terrorist  

38:20 - Şükür living in exile in the US and working jobs like an Uber driver

41:40 - Şükür continues to criticise Erdogan from exile despite threats

44:36 - Discussion on whether Şükür can ever return to Turkey

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Who is Arne Slot? Simon Kuper, who grew up in the Netherlands and remains a Dutch football obsessive, reveals all about the new Liverpool manager. Join Heroes & Humans for our first ever emergency episode to hear about the new Klopp mini-me.

The Dutchman from a family of schoolteachers is Klopp without the charisma and the teeth visible from outer space. He’s even practically German (well, ten minutes’ drive from the border). We have other comparisons: Slot’s playing career as the slowest Dutch midfielder since Louis van Gaal. And Simon discusses Slot’s similarities and differences with the dreaded Erik ten Hag, and why he’ll probably do better than poor Ten Hag has done at Manchester United. But we also draw a more encouraging parallel: why Slot-for-Klopp looks a lot like Bob Paisley replacing Bill Shankly.

Above all, listeners get a free lesson in how to pronounce Slot’s name.  

Timestamps:

00:02 - Introduction to the podcast "Heroes and Humans of Football"

00:48 - Simon expresses excitement about a Dutch manager being hired at Liverpool

01:04 - Discussion about pronouncing Arne Slot's name correctly

02:06 - Details on Liverpool potentially paying £10 million to secure Slot from Feyenoord

03:40 - Comparison of Slot to Erik ten Hag and Bob Paisley

06:43 - Slot's background: growing up in a small village near the German border

09:06 - The potential influence of Billy Beane (Moneyball) in Slot's hiring at Liverpool

12:28 - Slot's coaching style and philosophy, similar to those of Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp

16:43 - How Slot got Feyenoord to buy into and execute his high-pressing system

18:21 - Funny anecdote about Slot laughing at Diego Simeone after beating Atlético Madrid

19:23 - Mehreen's take on Slot's appearance and communication style

21:03 - Why Slot may succeed at Liverpool, where Ten Hag struggled at Manchester United

23:35 - Slot's reliance on wingers and fullbacks suits Liverpool's current squad

25:19 - Feyenoord's limited budget that Slot had to work with

26:21 - Potential weakness of Slot being vain/having high self-esteem

27:43 - Caution about difficulty of replacing a legend like Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool

28:31 - What profession Slot would have if not football (school teacher ... again)

29:09 - Whether they would enjoy spending an evening with Slot

30:24 - Slot has to try to beat his hero Pep Guardiola at Manchester City

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From innovator to "specialist in failure," this riveting episode charts Arsène Wenger's steep fall at Arsenal. His pioneering vision had remade English football, introducing new tactics, diets, and a cosmopolitan ethos that redefined excellence. The unbeaten "Invincibles" season cemented his legend, but also marked the start of a tragic decline.

As richer clubs co-opted Wenger's methods, his stubborn penny-pinching while Arsenal's debt piled up from their new Emirates stadium ended up creating fan toxicity. The famous (and hilarious) battle of "Pizzagate" at Old Trafford in 2004 signalled the start of the unravelling.

With raw insight on Wenger himself, the episode explores the personal costs of his uncompromising obsession, which alienated even die-hard fans. From glorious highs battling Sir Alex Ferguson to humiliating lows like a 6-0 loss on his 1000th game, it traces Wenger's descent from manager to "specialist in failure" caricature. And yet all through it, he loved his job at Arsenal.

This unsparing portrait captures the complexity of a man who remade the modern game yet stubbornly clung to his principles amid changing circumstances. The biggest victim was Wenger himself. His rise, fall, and self-reckoning are the story of a man who ended up feeling he had devoted too much of his life to football.

Timestamps:

0:00 - Introduction to Arsene Wenger and framing his rise and fall 

3:00 - Wenger's meteoric rise, pioneering approach and creation of the "Invincibles"

9:00- The "Pizzagate" incident at Old Trafford in 2004 signals the start of Wenger's decline

14:30 - Wenger's aversion to spending and friction with new free-spending owners like Abramovich

19:00 - Poor decisions like selling Van Persie as criticisms mount

23:00 - The Emirates Stadium move precipitating years of austerity and player sales

28:30 - Wenger becoming alienated from fans, a "specialist in failure" meme

33:00 - The lingering pain of the 2006 Champions League final loss  

38:00 - How Wenger coped by doubling down on his autonomy as results worsened

43:00 - Rise of fan channels like AFTV amplifying "Wenger Out" toxicity

48:30 - Wenger's forced 2018 exit after protracted decline 

53:00 - His struggle adapting to civilian life and reflections on sacrificing family

58:00 - Reassessing Wenger's complicated legacy as a transformative pioneer

1:03:00 - Looking ahead - could Arsenal find a role for him?

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From his humble beginnings in an Alsatian village to his revolutionary tenure at Arsenal from 1996 to 2004, Wenger's journey is a testament to his innovative spirit and enduring influence on English football. Exploring Arsène Wenger's meteoric rise at Arsenal, this first episode of a two-part series delves into the origins and golden years of one of the Premier League's most unforgettable managers.

Starting in Duttlenheim, where Wenger grew up in the post-WWII era, his early experiences in a village transitioning back to French control from Germany set the stage for his European outlook and multilingual skills. His transition from a modest playing career to groundbreaking coaching stints across Europe, including a life-changing period in Japan, laid the groundwork for his Arsenal legacy.

With three Premier League titles and a remarkable undefeated season with "The Invincibles" in 2003-04, Wenger's Arsenal redefined footballing excellence. His emphasis on a cosmopolitan approach, meticulous attention to player development, and a pioneering embrace of sports science and dietary regimens marked a departure from traditional English practices.

When Simon and Mehreen reflect on Wenger's journey, a picture emerges of a man whose dedication to football verged on obsession, often at personal cost. His love for the game and commitment to innovation left an indelible mark on Arsenal and the Premier League. His early triumphs remind us of the profound impact one individual can have on a sport, a club, and its global fanbase. Wenger's story is a blend of ambition, innovation, and the relentless pursuit of excellence—qualities that made him great and defined an era of football that continues to inspire and resonate.

Timestamps:

00:00 Excitement for Wenger, his legacy, and fan culture.

04:22 The French manager becomes known for his unstylish appearance.

08:20 Father's health recovered after World War 2.

11:50 University of Strasbourg graduate, economist, Arsenal manager.

12:52 Fascinated by Germany, no war hatred. Coaching.

17:57 Wenger, an economist, uses data to analyse football performance.

21:49 Wenger arrives at a small, hidden stadium. Different.

22:19 Club guest talks to woman about crucial figure.

27:41 England offers the manager a job; Wenger turns it down.

30:45 Players arrived at training under the influence of alcohol.

35:24 Wenger identifies talented players, signs them.

37:14 Wenger's scouting approach and successful player development.

40:39 The manager uses data to guide player substitutions.

42:53 Drogba's "impressive" performance against Arsenal for Chelsea.

45:34 Arsenal's confident old city, winning medals profusely.

49:09 Wenger goes from admired to joke.

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Mohamed Salah is the greatest player to emerge from a football-mad part of the world that has rarely produced elite talent on the level of the clinical, curly-haired winger: the Arab world. 

Born in a humble town in Egypt, the Arab world’s most populous country, Salah is an icon in Africa and the Middle East and ranks among the greatest Muslim athletes of the modern era. The 31 year-old’s breakthrough in European football may never have happened were it not for the tragic breakdown of law and order in Egypt in the aftermath of the Arab Spring in 2011. A young Salah had his dream of playing for one of Egypt's big clubs taken away from him following the Port Said stadium disaster, one of the deadliest episodes of football violence in the 21st century. 

He burst onto the scene in European football with Swiss side Basel, putting in man of the match performances against Chelsea in successive cup competitions, scoring three times against the Blues who went on to sign him at the age of 22. Liverpool missed out on his signature because they didn’t think he was worth his £11 million transfer fee. 

Salah suffered his worst season as a professional under totemic Chelsea coach Jose Mourinho, who loaned him off after a year in one of the worst transfer decisions ever made by the club. After a stint in Serie A, Salah returned to England with a vengeance with Liverpool in 2017 and has become an Anfield legend, winning the Premier League and Champions League under Jurgen Klopp. 

Simon and Mehreen tell the story of a footballer whose impact goes far beyond Liverpool FC or football. He’s probably the only sportsman who has been empirically proven to have helped reduce racism against Muslims in the UK, with his quiet piety, prostrating goal celebrations and boundless dedication to his craft. 

A generation of young Egyptians who had their freedoms and aspirations brutally suppressed by Egypt's military dictator following the end of the Arab Spring find rare hope in Salah. Liverpool’s Egyptian King is a beacon for millions who will never get the chance to fulfil their dreams in the autocratic, repressive state. 

Timestamps:

00:00 Salah stands out as unique Arab footballer.

04:59 Mohammed Salah overcomes obstacles to pursue football.

06:48 Salah emerges as rising football star in Egypt.

09:48 Port Said Massacre led to end of Egyptian revolution.

15:33 Limited play, occasional impact, inconsistent performance.

18:08 Salah's successful transfers lead to record deal.

21:32 Salah's uncertain start, followed by remarkable success.

24:19 Ramos highlights need to eliminate key player.

27:33 Egypt's football journey, Mohamed Salah's pressure, World Cup politics.

30:15 Salah's impact on Liverpool's success and growth.

34:49 Muslim soccer player connects with fans, transcends stereotypes.

36:07 Salah's influence on a Liverpool fan's transformation.

40:52 Salah may end career in Arab world.

42:41 Salah's success is rare amidst Arab adversity.

46:15 Salah's existence sparks debates and political expectations.

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Born in the Catalan village of Santpedor, Pep's early life was steeped in the resurgence of Catalan identity post-Franco. His childhood, which was characterised by his village's isolation and cultural defiance, served as a prelude to a career that would challenge and redefine football norms.

Pep's footballing philosophy began to take shape here, in the fertile grounds of Barça, under the guidance of Johan Cruyff, the father of total football. Cruyff saw in Pep not just a player but a kindred spirit, a conduit for his revolutionary ideas on the pitch.

Pep's playing career at Barcelona manifested his cerebral approach to the game. He was slow and couldn’t tackle, but his understanding of space, movement, and tactical coherence made him indispensable. Yet, it was off the field, in conversations & debates with Cruyff, where Pep's future as a coach was being forged. Their shared vision for football's possibilities became the foundation of Pep's approach to management.

Guardiola's transition to coaching was as unexpected as it was meteoric. Chosen to lead Barcelona at just 37, he embodied the club's desire for a Catalan at the helm, a move that might seem narrow-minded to outsiders but was very meaningful to those within the close-knit Barcelona family. Pep's journey had its challenges. His relationship with Mourinho, once marked by mutual admiration, evolved into a rivalry that mirrored their contrasting football philosophies. Meanwhile, Pep's commitment to Catalan independence, juxtaposed with his affiliations with Qatar & the UAE, painted a complex picture of a man navigating the intersecting realms of politics, identity, and sport.

Pep Guardiola's legacy is not merely a collection of trophies but a testament to the power of ideas in shaping the beautiful game. His story is a celebration of intellectual curiosity, tactical innovation, & the enduring impact of a coach who, despite reaching the zenith of football management, remains a student of the game.

Timestamps:

00:00 Pep Guardiola's legacy.

09:51 Despite his limitations, Cruyff saw potential in a young Pep Guardiola and even changed his position to central defence, despite his lack of speed and defensive abilities.

25:19 Barcelona interviews Guardiola but prefers Mourinho due to set criteria.

26:36 Pep Guardiola becomes Barcelona's head coach unexpectedly.

35:38 Pep guides Messi and recommends he become a false nine.

45:22 Mourinho and Pep have conflicting coaching styles during their time at Madrid and Barca.

48:40 Pep resigns, takes sabbatical, Tito steps up.

53:47 Pep coaches kids soccer & Nathan Redmond during games, showing non-partisan sportsmanship.

59:57 Evolution of management; Foden challenges Pep, culture change in football.

01:09:56 Catalan movement, Pep criticised for lack of consistency.

01:13:22 Guest, John Carlin, met Pep Guardiola in New York, became good friends. Dined together, mutual close friends, empathises with him.

01:20:09 Football evolution and shift in the game has been largely driven by Pep's influence, with teams adopting a fast-paced, pressing style of play.

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Roman Abramovich's story unfolds with the complexity of a man who came from Russia to reshape Premier League football. Starting life in a nondescript communist town, orphaned and adopted within an anti-Semitic Soviet Union, Abramovich's acute sensitivity to others' desires propelled him from selling rubber ducks to amassing a fortune amid the chaos of post-Soviet privatisation. 

His acquisition of Chelsea FC in 2003 marked a pivotal moment, introducing unprecedented investment into the sport, but also igniting debates around sports washing and the ethical dimensions of football ownership. 

Abramovich started at Chelsea painfully aware of his big handicap: he knew no more about football than the average fan. So he displayed another secret of his success: he is a good listener. Despite being the master of all he surveyed at an historically mediocre club, initially he barely opened his mouth.

Under Abramovich, Chelsea claimed 19 trophies in 19 years, but underlying his tenure was a mysterious relationship with Putin and sanctions following geopolitical tensions. 

After his fall from grace and forced sale of Chelsea amidst accusations and personal risks, including poisoning, Abramovich's legacy in football remains divisive. Admirers cite his contributions to the club and community. For Mehreen, as a Chelsea fan, there is a part of her that still adores him even in 2024, when it’s not PC to say that, while acknowledging the darker aspects of his oligarchy and influence. 

His story is a testament to the intricate dance of power, identity, and the indelible mark one man can leave on a beloved sport.

Timestamps:

00:00 Abramovich: From unknown to controversial football tycoon.

10:03 Canadian deputy PM Chryssia Freeland's book discusses Russian oligarchs, including Abramovich and Berezovsky. It mentions their deals and legal battles, with a spoiler about Berezovsky's fate.

10:40 A select few men gain immense wealth and political power in Yeltsin's Russia, controlling the country's economy and influencing political decisions through ownership of natural resources, media, and political influence.

20:39 Abramovich celebrates buying Chelsea with Evian water.

23:06 Various theories on Abramovich's purchase of Chelsea FC, including Putin's involvement and connections among oligarchs and media magnates in Moscow.

29:56 Learning how to own a football club. Exploring Europe, attending 3 games per day.

36:13 Abramovich values loyalty and shows it lavishly.

40:51 Putin suggests recruiting Abramovich for World Cup bid.

46:13 UK report links oligarch to Kremlin and Putin.

47:53 Abramovich's political and business manoeuvres regarding Chelsea, including potential sanctions and the sale of the club in light of the war.

52:59 Abramovich supports Jewish causes, including the Elad group, but faces criticism for promoting settler tourism.

01:00:01 Possible involvement in geopolitical hotspots, rehabilitation potential

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Tracing Kylian Mbappé’s path from the suburbs of Paris to the pinnacle of global football. With two decades of living in Paris, Simon brings an insider's perspective to Mbappé's early life, highlighting the city's rich football culture that has nurtured talents like Pogba, Kanté, and Mahrez. 

The Paris region is the biggest talent pool in global football, ahead of Buenos Aires. To understand the essence of Mbappé, it is necessary to understand the role of Parisian banlieues and artificial fields, which produce an unprecedented number of football stars. Yet, understanding the household that shaped his path is perhaps even more crucial.

In the heart of Bondy, Mbappé's upbringing unfolds—a tale of ambition, community, and family. His parents, Wilfrid and Fayza, pillars of their community, guided their son with a blend of strict education and football mentorship. From his father's coaching at AS Bondy, to listening to dressing-room tactical talks from age four, Mbappé's childhood was steeped in football.

Mbappé encountered broader social and political challenges, growing up as a black-Arab kid in the suburbs, against a backdrop of rising far-right sentiment in France. His early awareness of race and identity issues, alongside his family's careful navigation of fame and society’s expectations, paints a portrait of resilience and conscious ambition.

As Mbappé's talent becomes undeniable, every club wants to sign the kid. The family makes the very canny choice that he’ll start his career at Monaco, where there’s a fast track to the first team, and the club also employs teachers who can school him for the Baccalauréat, the French equivalent of A-levels. Doing ‘le bac’ is non-negotiable for his parents. 

From his developmental years at Monaco to his record-breaking move to PSG, calculated decisions shaped his journey. Insights into Mbappé's personal growth, interactions with football legends, and his impact at the World Cup provide a glimpse into his evolution from a promising talent to a global football icon.

Timestamps:

00:00 Paris suburbs & footballing legacy.

08:48 Mbappé's diverse family, community pillars.

15:24 Mbappé meets Ronaldo, Zidane, awestruck by car.

19:03 1998 World Cup, racism controversy, young player.

21:54 Far right leader criticised nonwhite French players.

28:15 Mbappé faces rigid hierarchy, navigates his place in the dressing room.

31:31 Skilled footballer with versatility and tactical acumen.

38:36 Mbappé surprised by World Cup success, humbled by celebration.

44:49 Mixed reception in France for wealthy black celebrities.

48:31 Connecting with a frustrated young French generation.

53:34 Messi competes and pushing each other's performance.

01:00:08 Mbappé's potential to surpass football legends discussed.

01:03:18 Tune in next week for Roman Abramovich.

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Simon Kuper and Mehreen Khan take the heroes of football and show you the human behind them. Uncovering the very strange journeys some of them have made to the place where we got to see them, their life stories, and the societies that gave birth to them, we get to know these football people through a new lens. 

The two hosts love football in very different ways. Is the World Cup just for football tourists trying to pretend they love football just as much as we do? That’s what Mehreen says, commenting on Simon having been to the last nine World Cups.

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