Human Nature Odyssey

You are listening to a bonus episode of Human Nature Odyssey. This is a conversation I had a little bit ago with D. Firth Griffith: farmer, author, and host of the Unshod podcast. Together we talk about the Tower of Babel as a metaphor for civilization, our relationship with technology, and whether humanity is the hero, victims, or villain of our global story. 

As Daniel wrote for the episode description:

"The metaphor of the Tower of Babel serves as a philosophical lens through which we examine civilization's complexities and our relationship with technology. Are we building a society without understanding its true purpose, and how does this impact our local engagements? Alex and I also reimagine classic narratives, pondering if true heroism lies not in saving the world, but in developing a reciprocal relationship with nature and ourselves. This is a candid exploration of humanity's environmental role, challenging the notion that we're merely defenders of a world in peril." "Inspired by Daniel Quinn’s “Ishmael,” our conversation turns to humanity’s impact on Earth, from ancient health paradigms to modern civilization's paradoxes. The conversation dives into embracing diverse worldviews, especially indigenous perspectives, and exploring the cultural narratives shaping our interactions with nature."

Daniel's new book The Plain of Pillars: A Celtic Story is available now.

What will happen to our scientific knowledge if civilization collapses? Will astrophysics survive a future stone age?

In this episode, we rest from our journey to talk with astrophysicist Tom Murphy, who’s been on an odyssey of his own—moving from academia to a growing concern about the collapse of civilization, to an ever expanding appreciation of the cosmos.

Together we’ll gaze at the grandeur of the stars and marvel at the complexity of one of our oldest cousins: the amoeba. If you’re seeking a moment to marvel at the interconnectedness of life on Earth and the universe its interwoven with, this is the episode for you.

Tom Murphy is an Emeritus Professor of Physics and Astronomy/Astrophysics at the University of California, San Diego.  After a career studying colliding galaxies and testing General Relativity using lasers to the moon, Murphy retired early to shift focus onto Planetary Limits and the intrinsic incompatibility between modernity and ecological longevity.  Creator of a textbook on energy, the Do the Math blog, and the Metastatic Modernity video series, his main plea is that you bypass these resources and read the book Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

More from Tom:

Do the Math blog

Metastatic Modernity

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Looking for a game to play over the holidays? Why not try the real world global economy? Too late, you’re already playing it! 

Have you ever noticed how the most popular board games just so happen to reflect core components of our civilization? Settlers of Catan involves the extraction of raw materials. Risk is the imperialism and war between nations. Monopoly demonstrates the pitfalls of capitalism.

Now in the real world, I rarely celebrate resource extraction, imperialism, or capitalism. But the board game versions are so much fun. Maybe that’s why we’re all playing it at a global level. As horrible as the side effects of these things are, enough people are having so much fun playing. 

And not just those winning. Sure, winning is awesome. But don’t count out how much fun it is to be down just enough to think if you keep trying you can get back in it. Your competitiveness takes over and you can’t put the game down. 

And then for even more people, they have no choice in the matter, they have to play, even though there’s no hope for winning, they’re just trying to survive and stay in the game. 

At this point, most of the world has been roped into this game of conquering, exploitation, and finance. We’re so convinced this is just normal life, most people don’t even think they’re playing a game. But unlike most board games, it doesn't come with an instruction manual. That is… until now. 

In this episode, we use sociologist Immanuel Wallerstein’s seminal text, World-Systems Analysis, as our instruction manual to the game of colonization and exploitation. We explore how dominant countries rise and fall, the dance between capitalism and the state, and the unexpected truth about what real power looks like. 

Join us for a deep dive into empires, markets, mafias, and everyone’s favorite Monopoly piece: the thimble. Macro-economics has never been this entertaining and fun for the whole family.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

CREDITS

Additional Writer ... Weslie Lechner

Voice Acting ... Patrick Boylan and Weslie Lechner

CITATIONS

World-Systems Analysis: An Introduction [book] by Immanuel Wallerstein (2004)

The Emergence of France [article] by Gabriel Fournier and John Frederick Drinkwater (2024)

The secret history of Monopoly: the capitalist board game's leftwing origins [article] by Mary Pilon (2015)

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Gather around the campfire for a ghost story about the most destructive monster in history: civilization itself. 

In this episode, we delve into the countercultural writings of Fredy Perlman, whose strange 1983 book “Against His-Story, Against-Leviathan”—riddled with grammatical errors and misspellings—blends myth and history to explore the nature of power, subjugation, and the struggle between the rulers and the ruled.

Our journey takes us back to ancient Sumer, where egalitarian hunter-gatherer communities transformed into peasants and slaves bound by a mysterious force even the rulers couldn’t control. 

We trace the rise of the first Lugals, the original kings of Mesopotamia, from Urukagina of Lagash, whose reforms sowed the seeds of his downfall, to Sargon of Akkad, who conquered all of Sumer only to become part of the Leviathan’s vast machinery.

Together, we’ll explore how power and control first took root in the world's earliest cities—and how those ancient systems still shape our world today.

This is a spooky episode. The hair on the back of your neck might stand up. But we can stay seated and relax. It is just a story after all. A fairytale, as Fredy would call it.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

CITATIONS

Against His-Story, Against Leviathan [book] by Fredy Perlman (1983)

Sargon of Akkad [article] by Joshua J. Mark (2009)

Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles [book] by Albert Kirk Grayson (1975)

Akkadian Empire victory stele circa 2300 BC from Louvre Museum

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Additional Credits

Vanhan ajan sota, taistelu, miekkailu / Ancient, old time battle, combat, horses snorting and galloping, men shouting and barking, fencing, swords clanging, mix by YleArkisto -- https://freesound.org/s/258207/ -- License: Attribution 4.0

In the spring of 1992, twenty-four-year-old Christopher McCandless left society behind, hitchhiking 3,000 miles into the Alaskan wilderness.

Two years earlier, Chris had donated his entire life savings to Oxfam, burned his social security card, and headed west seeking life on his own terms - without telling a soul, particularly his parents. 

In this episode, we delve into Into the Wild's larger cultural implications, exploring the conflict between self and society, community and solitude. Philosophers like Henry David Thoreau, John Muir, and John Locke will weigh in. As well as George Carlin and Malcolm and the Middle.  

We’ll investigate the concept of “wilderness” - how Euro-American settlers viewed it versus their Native American counterparts.

And for those of us who dream of escaping the troubles of society, we’ll explore McCandless as an inspiration and cautionary tale. 

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

CITATIONS

Into the Wild [book] by Jon Krakauer (1996)

Into the Wild [film] directed by Sean Penn (2007)

George Carlin’s appearance on Late Night with Conan O’Brien (1996)

Malcolm in the Middle [sitcom] (2000-2007)

How Chris McCandless Died [article] by Jon Krakauer (2016)

Myths of Wilderness in Contemporary Narrative [book] by Kylie Crane (2012)

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Is it possible to escape industrialism, capitalism, imperialism or are we trapped? Crazy Town podcast hosts Jason Bradford, Rob Dietz, and Asher Miller join us for a wide-ranging discussion of big topics like modern civilization’s converging crises, the concept of 'red pilling', and the 1993 Bill Murray classic film Groundhog Day. 

With equal parts humor and in-depth analysis, Asher, Rob, and Jason safeguard their sanity while probing crazy-making topics like climate change, overshoot, runaway capitalism, and why we’re all deluding ourselves.

In addition to hosting the Crazy Town podcast, they are also leaders of the Post Carbon Institute in Corvallis, Oregon. Founded in 2003, PCI’s mission is to lead the transition to a more resilient, equitable, and sustainable world by providing individuals and communities with the resources needed to understand and respond to the interrelated ecological, economic, energy, and equity crises of the 21st century.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

Learn More:

Crazy Town Podcast

Post Carbon Institute

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

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Opening and closing music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio

What death is required for life to grow? In our culture’s resistance to death we seem to have caused so much of it.

And what if humans aren't inherently a destructive force on the planet? How might we actually be another symbiotic part of our ecosystems?

Jake Marquez and Maren Morgan are the hosts of Death in the Garden, a podcast exploring the complex intersection between myth, civilization, climate change.

Mandy Magill is a regenerative agriculture educator and cofounder of the Earth Regeneration Alliance. 

In this episode we’re sharing exerpts from both these conversations to explore our culture’s aversion to death, how food is the nexus of civilization, and alternatives to conventional farming that can regenerate ecosystems and recreate our relationship with nature.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

More on Mandy's organizations: Rooted in REAL (Regenerative, Ethical, Authentic, Local) is an upcoming app that will educate and guide subscribers to food and beverage businesses that are sourcing REAL food and products, along with creating community and philanthropy around living regeneratively. Earth Regeneration Alliance is focused on educating the public, introducing and guiding regenerative legislation, and creating community around the many ways to heal and regenerate Planet Earth.

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Civilization is an interactive immersive experience. Worldbuilding isn't just for sci-fi and fantasy, but how we can change our society.

Abraham Burickson, co-founder of Odyssey Works—an organization dedicated to crafting personalized, immersive experiences—has long been captivated by the transformative power of design. Whether in the structure of a building or the verses of a poem, he explores how these creations shape our perceptions and interactions with the world.

In his latest book, Experience Design: A Participatory Manifesto Abraham encourages us to envision societal change as a collective act of worldbuilding. Join us as we explore how societies formed through the experiences we design—spanning from weddings and funerals to conferences, protests, and the holidays we commemorate.

How would you redesign how we experience the world? How could fantasy worldbuilding be used for real-world change? 

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI    

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https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f

In this very special episode, author Daniel Quinn’s wife Rennie Mackay Quinn joins us for her first ever interview: sharing untold stories, new insights, and reflections on her life and journey with her beloved late husband & Daniel Quinn.

Rennie tells us about the 15 years it took Daniel to write Ishmael, the childhood dream that sparked it, how the word "hamburger" changed their lives, how they navigated the response and acclaim to Ishmael, and much more.

CITATIONS

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

Providence by Daniel Quinn (1994)

You can read more of Rennie and Daniel’s story at Ishmael.org and see Rennie’s paintings at RMQabstracts.com.

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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In this climactic culmination of the Ishmael series, we ask the question : how do we transform an entire society?

Ishmael doesn’t give us the “10 Simple Steps to Save the World” instead, he offers us a map and compass to navigate our intergenerational civilizational transformation ourselves. Where we go from here is up to us.

We’ll meet the fantastical Prince who first concocted the criminal justice system, have a final reckoning with our Taker Mythology hat, and return to the abandoned land of Ashbourne.

Thank you to Honan and Dylan for their voice acting.

CITATIONS

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

Washington Post "Turner Prize" by David Streitfeld (1991)

creativity-found.org/ted-turner

AV Club "CNN’s doomsday video" by Sean O'Neal (2015)

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI    

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Is it possible to build a civilization that flies? (metaphorically speaking of course)

How did we eventually learn to fly? It wasn’t by defying gravity and disobeying aerodynamics but by learning how to work with them. 

Daniel Quinn, in his novel Ishmael, argues there are laws of nature that we have to learn to live within, rather than resist, if we are to continue as a society. In this episode we explore what this “Law of Life” could be.

This is an episode of short stories, cinematic sound effects, and wacky voices. Strap in for liftoff. 

Citations

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

Scientific American (2020)

Thank you to Maddy and Austin for their voice acting. You can listen to Madima's music on Spotify here.

"Vadim Krakhmal - Journey To The Toucan Isle" is under a Creative Commons (CC BY-SA 3.0) license Music promoted by BreakingCopyright

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Who first told the story of the Garden of Eden? Could it have been a way to explain the unfolding Agricultural Revolution from the perspective of the people who were there?

The Garden of Eden has been told and retold for thousands of years. Why do we keep telling it? With insight from modern biblical scholarship, we investigate the origins of this ancient story and what warning this active myth still has yet to be heeded today.

It’s an adventure to the far flung lands of Alex’s 5th grade classroom as well as the lush old-growth forests of the Middle East (before all the desertification). 

There’s parables, characters, and plenty of special effects. You’ll want to bring some popcorn for this one. And don’t listen to anything that serpent tells you on the way in.

This episode is largely indebted to the research and writing of J. Snodgrass and his fascinating book “Genesis and the Rise of Civilization”. If you would like to learn more, you’ll find an exclusive interview with J. Snodgrass on the HNO Patreon.

Citations

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

Genesis and the Rise of Civilization by j. Snodgrass (2011)

Sapiens by Yuval Harari (2011)

Indigenous Continent: The Epic Conquest of North America by Pekka Hämäläinen (2022)

The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race from Discovery Magazine (1999)

Beat Provided By https://freebeats.io Produced By White Hot

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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In this episode we take a step back from Ishmael to better view the philosophical context it was written in.

We explore the history of the terms “civilized” and “primitive” and how their definitions have evolved over time.

Topics include: Rome’s influence on Western European colonization, noble savage theory, primitivism, and the rise of the identity “indigenous”.

When we say civilization who do we include and exclude? Who is civilized and what does that mean?

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

Citations

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

The Dawn of Everything by David Wengrow and David Graeber (2021)

Of Plymouth Plantation by William Bradford (1620-1647)

Indigenous Continent: The Epic Conquest of North America by Pekka Hämäläinen (2022)

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Ishmael theorizes our culture is held captive by a story, a mythology we take for granted, act out every day, and is leading to the destruction of the world. So in this episode we tell this story out loud, from beginning, to middle, to end. 

Along the way we chat with a 6-year-old animal expert, discuss adult imaginary games, analyze the subliminal cultural messages conveyed in religion and philosophy, and meet a sassy imaginary top hat with a poorly performed Brooklyn accent.

Taker Mythology, the grand sweeping narrative playing out behind the scenes of our culture, just might explain how we got here and where we’re going… if we don’t find a way to tell another story.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

Citations

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

A Sand County Almanac by Aldo Leopold (1949)

Leviathan by Thomas Hobbes (1651)

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI    

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Why can’t we seem to stop destroying the world? Like seriously though?

Ishmael, the telepathic gorilla from Daniel Quinn’s philosophical novel, suggests we’re captives of a society where our individual society depends on our collective destruction.

As we embark on our quest through the landscape of ideas in Quinn’s novel, we’ll travel to a dystopian future where Nazi Germany won the war, meet our long lost furry and feathery cousins, explore a sinister layer where villainous henchman plot the end of the world, conduct an investigation into a planet-wide crime scene, and meet the gorilla we’ve all been waiting for.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

Citations

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn (1992)

Gerta Keller, Professor of Paleontology and Geology in the Geosciences Department at Princeton University

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/world/sixth-mass-extinction-accelerating-intl/index.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/un-environment-programme_us_684562

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0959378094900035

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI    

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We’re all on our own quest to live more meaningful, healthy, and fruitful lives.

To more fully understand the situation we’re in, we’re going to have to expand our scope in geography and time.

This is a sociological examination of the personal, and a psychological examination of the social.

Alex takes you back in time to a fateful childhood summer when the world was a magical place to explore, yet seemed like it was ending just as he was getting to know it.

It was then that Alex first read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, the book that begins the quest of Human Nature Odyssey.

If you’d like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts, leave us a review, and visit humannatureodyssey.com.

Join us on Patreon and get exclusive access to audio extras, writings, and notes.

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

1.  Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI    

2.  iTunes: 

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You are living the latest chapter in a 10,000 year story. Join storyteller Alex Leff on a search for better ways to understand and more clearly experience the incredible, terrifying, and ridiculous world we live in.

The first stop on our quest through a landscape of ideas and stories is the 1992 novel Ishmael by Daniel Quinn about a telepathic gorilla with great hope for humanity.

Next episodes every month beginning May 4th, 2023.

===

Music: Celestial Soda Pop

By: Ray Lynch

From the album: Deep Breakfast

Courtesy Ray Lynch Productions © Ⓟ 1984/BMI 

All rights reserved.

Amazon: Celestial Soda Pop 

https://amazon.com/music/player/albums/B000QQXURI   

iTunes: Celestial Soda Pop 

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Spotify:  Celestial Soda Pop 

https://open.spotify.com/track/2THDVIVytLuGX7S7UghuC1?si=20ea63807bba401f