Irregular Warfare Podcast

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For nearly two months, three powerful dynamics have converged in Gaza: lawfare, a humanitarian crisis, and urban combat. This episode examines those subjects and explores how they play out and influence one another in Gaza. Our hosts are joined by retired General Joseph Votel, the distinguished chair of West Point’s Combating Terrorism Center and former commander of US Central Command, and Dr. Raphael Cohen, the director of the Strategy and Doctrine Program of RAND Project AIR FORCE. They explore Hamas’s hybrid strategy in Gaza and Israel’s traditional counterterrorism approach in the Middle East, the importance of addressing lawfare and humanitarian considerations head on, and the challenges of operating in urban terrain and navigating geopolitical complexities that may require the United States and its allies to reconsider their global force structure.

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When two adversaries confront one another militarily, they are rarely the only participants. Either side might delegate portions of its war efforts to proxies, for example. But there are a wide range of other roles that intermediaries also play. This episode explores those roles and features a discussion with Dr. Michael G. Vickers, former US under secretary of defense for intelligence, and Dr. Vladimir Rauta, an associate professor at the University of Reading.

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In the first installment of a three-part miniseries on irregular warfare in Israel, Adam Darnley-Stuart speaks to Dr. Levi West, a renowned counterterrorism analyst, about the history and strategy of Hamas. Dr. West offers nuanced insights into Hamas operations and the likelihood that the organization's tactics might spread and be adopted by other groups around the world. The discussion links the tiers of national security together from tactics to strategy, exploring the effects of current events on the enduring friction between Israel and Iran, for example, and the broader impacts on the geopolitical environment.

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What do the Cod Wars—a years-long series of confrontations between Iceland and the United Kingdom over North Atlantic fishing rights—and the operations of the marine conservation organization Sea Shepherd teach us about irregular warfare in the sea domain? How do the actions of states and both nonstate and substate actors intersect to shape the maritime operational environment in which irregular warfare at sea plays out? In this episode, Kevin Bilms, a career civil servant in the Office of the Secretary of Defense, and Dr. Claude Berube, a retired Navy commander who teaches at the US Naval Academy, join hosts Ben Jebb and Lisa Munde to explore this fascinating and important subject.

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As the global information environment rapidly changes, revisionist states are increasingly enabled to wage information warfare. They leverage networked information systems to sow political chaos in target societies. But as states weaponize strategic narratives to advance their interests, what can democracies and their populations do to protect against foreign information operations? To explore this challenging topic, this episode features a conversation with Dr. Andreas Krieg, a senior lecturer at the School of Security Studies at King’s College London and the author of Subversion: The Strategic Weaponization of Narratives, and Dr. Andrew Whiskeyman, an associate professor at the National Defense University’s College of Information and Cyberspace and former chief of US Central Command's Information Operations Division.

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Why do states engage in hostage taking to advance their interests? What incentives are in place that make them choose hostage taking over other, more traditional instruments of power? How do conventional international relations concepts like deterrence apply to the unique challenge of hostage taking? This episode examines these questions and more, as our hosts are joined for a fascinating discussion by Ambassador Roger D. Carstens, the special presidential envoy for hostage affairs at the US Department of State, and Dr. Dani Gilbert, an assistant professor of political science at Northwestern University whose research explores the causes and consequences of hostage taking and hostage recovery.

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What are the fundamental tenets of China's political warfare? What does it look like when Beijing employs political warfare in the real world? And how is it different, in both theory and practice, from traditional Western conceptualizations of warfare and its political component? This episode explores those questions and more. It features a conversation with two guests whose deep expertise gives them important perspectives on the subject. Dr. Ross Babbage is a nonresident senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, served as the head of strategic analysis in Australia’s Office of National Assessments, and is the author of the book The Next Major War: Can the US and its Allies Win against China? David Stilwell is the assistant secretary of state for the Bureau of East Asian and Pacific Affairs, a retired US Air Force officer, and former director of the China Strategic Focus Group at US Indo-Pacific Command. Together, they examine China’s practice of political warfare and how other states can counter it.

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Relations between the United States and China are characterized by growing competition and tension. This is true in a wide range of arenas, but particularly so when it comes to technology. US policy in recent years—from the move to keep companies such as Huawei out of US infrastructure to the CHIPS and Science Act enacted in 2022—is aimed at both preventing Chinese spying and containing China’s very ability to access high-end computing power. But where is US-China tech competition headed? In this episode—part of an episode swap with FP Live, produced by Foreign Policy—you’ll hear from Dan Wang, who explores that question along with Ravi Agrawal, Foreign Policy editor in chief. A visiting scholar at Yale Law School’s Paul Tsai China Center, Wang explains whether US regulatory measures are effective in actually curbing China’s ability to produce high-end semiconductor chips and proliferate its technology around the world. He also describes his pessimism about China’s long-term economic rise and his belief that the continued rapid pace of China’s technological development is not inevitable.

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Irregular warfare, by its nature, includes activities that distinguish it from those traditionally conducted by conventional forces. But if congressional oversight is designed with the latter in mind, does this create gaps in oversight of irregular warfare? If so, what can Congress do to address the problem? Our guests on this episode are Dr. Oona Hathaway, director of the Yale Law School Center for Global Legal Challenges, and Dr. Thomas Campbell, professor at Chapman University’s Dale E. Fowler School of Law and a former member of Congress. They discuss the complexities of the congressional Authorization for the Use of Military Force, the unique considerations surrounding Title 10 and Title 50 activities, and the responsibilities of various committees in overseeing these actions. They conclude by sharing their insights on what this means for both practitioners and policymakers.

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In what ways do irregular warfare and counterinsurgency overlap? Is China engaged in irregular warfare against its adversaries? What are some of the failures of the wars and conflicts of the last twenty years and why did they occur? What do IW practitioners need to do to avoid the mistakes and to ensure they learn the hard-won lessons of the last twenty years in IW and COIN? This episode explores these deeply important questions and features a conversation with two of the leading experts on the subject: David Kilcullen and John Nagl.

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What happens when authoritarianism expands into online environments? A form of digital repression takes shape. But what does that actually look like? What are the specific ways that authoritarian regimes use new technologies to control their populations? And how are resistance groups adapting to overcome digital repression? This episode addresses those questions as hosts Matt Moellering and Adam Darnley-Stuart are joined by Steven Feldstein, author of the book The Rise of Digital Repression: How Technology is Reshaping Power, Politics, and Resistance, and John Tullius, who retired from the CIA in 2019 and now teaches classes on intelligence at the Naval Postgraduate School.

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What does it mean when a state’s security sector undergoes what scholars call “elite capture”—a form of corruption in which military and defense resources are leveraged to benefit a small, powerful segment of society? What problems contribute to elite capture and is it possible to disentangle them? From a US policy perspective, what can be done to limit the risk of elite capture when engaging with countries vulnerable to it?

This episode addresses all of these questions as Ambassador Anne Patterson, retired Lieutenant General Karl Eikenberry, and Dr. Louis-Alexandre Berg join host Julia McClenon. They bring their combined experience and expertise to a wide-ranging discussion on a deeply challenging policy issue.

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Why do states engage in proxy warfare? How does what scholars call principal-agent theory explain the way proxy warfare actually plays out—particularly the challenges that arise when the interests of a principal and a proxy diverge? And as the US military continues to prepare for large-scale combat operations, how should the ability to leverage proxies factor into planning? This episode addresses these questions and more in wide-ranging discussing featuring three guests. Dr. Nakissa Jahanbani is an assistant professor in West Point's Department of Social Sciences and a researcher at the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point. Dr. Vladimir Rauta is a lecturer in politics and international relations at the University of Reading and the editor of the forthcoming Routledge Handbook of Proxy Wars. And retired Lieutenant General Ken Tovo served for almost forty years in the Army, including as commanding general of US Army Special Operations Command.

Note: This episode was originally recorded and released by the Social Science of War podcast, a coproduction between the Modern War Institute at West Point and West Point's Department of Social Sciences.

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Is it possible to deter adversaries in the cyber domain—and if so, how? What should the US Department of Defense be learning from the role of cyber in the war in Ukraine? How do activities in the cyber domain overlay on—and influence—irregular warfare? In this episode, hosts Matt Moellering and Adam Darnley-Stuart are joined by two expert guests. Ms. Mieke Eoyang is the deputy assistant secretary of defense for cyber policy and Dr. Erica Lonergan is an assistant professor at the Army Cyber Institute at West Point and coauthor of the book Escalation Dynamics in Cyberspace. Together, they examine some of the deeply challenging questions presented by the increasing prominence of cyberspace as a warfighting domain.

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When the US military set out to combat ISIS in Iraq in the mid-2010s, it did so determined to operate “by, with, and through” partner forces. That approach would prove to have advantages in the case of Operation Inherent Resolve. But it can also prove deeply challenging.

This episode features a conversation with Brigadier General Pat Work, who served as the commander of 2nd Brigade Combat Team, 82nd Airborne Division during Operation Inherent Resolve, and Mr. Jeff Martini, a senior researcher at the RAND Corporation and coauthor of a 2022 report on US ground force contributions in the fight against ISIS in Iraq. They discuss the conditions that encouraged an approach that placed partnered forces at the center of operational plans, before examining Operation Inherent Resolve's effectiveness and exploring the question of how the United States can best prepare for future partnered operations in global operational environment characterized by strategic competition.

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In the blurred spaces between peace and war, a contest over influence plays out. But how is the contest won? What are the components of an effective strategy in this gray zone? What role do irregular warfare campaigns play? And how do strong alliances enable these campaigns? This episode explores these questions and more, specifically looking at the competition for influence in the Indo-Pacific region, where China’s gray zone strategy is in competition with a network of actors, among which the strong US-Australia is a prominent feature. Hosts Adam Darnley-Stuart and Julia McClenon are joined by Clementine Starling, director of the Atlantic Council’s Forward Defense program, and Australian Senator David Van.

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For nearly two decades of constant operations during America’s post-9/11 wars, Army special operations forces played a central role at the tip of the spear. But how will they best contribute to future irregular warfare campaigns that take shape on a very different strategic landscape?

In this episode, hosts Ben Jebb and Kyle Atwell are joined by Lieutenant Jonathan P. Braga, commanding general of US Army Special Operations Command, and P. W. Singer, a New York Times best-selling author and renowned national security futurist. Together, they explore the range of future threats that Army special operations forces will encounter, discuss how to harness the power of innovation to enable them to meet these threats, and recommend ways to optimize these uniquely trained and equipped soldiers and units for the future of irregular warfare.

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How much of a role have cyber warfare and digital information operations played since Russia's invasion of Ukraine? What about since 2014, when Russia seized Crimea and backed proxy forces in the eastern Donbas region? What lessons on cyber resilience emerge from an examination of Ukraine’s defense against Russian cyber actions? And what do Russia’s cyber operations against Ukraine tell us about the way it conceptualizes and organizes cyber activities?

To explore these questions, this episode features a conversation with Gavin Wilde, a senior fellow in the Technology and International Affairs Program at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and former director for Russia, Baltic, and Caucasus affairs at the National Security Council, and Jason Kikta, who served for over twenty years in the United States Marine Corps, including seven years at United States Cyber Command designing and managing the national counter-APT and counter-ransomware missions.

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It’s been described as the “terrorist’s dilemma”—the trade-offs between maintaining security and exercising command and control that terrorist organizations must make. But how can counterterrorism campaigns be designed to exploit that dilemma? What do government agencies and organizations charged with countering terrorist threats need to know about those pressures? And how should an understanding of the dilemma inform the development of counterterrorism policy?

To explore those questions, hosts Jeff Phaneuf and Adam Darnley-Stuart are joined by two guests with deep expertise on the subject. Dr. Jake Shapiro directs the Empirical Studies of Conflict Project at Princeton University and is the author of the book that forms the basis of this discussion, The Terrorist’s Dilemma: Managing Violent Covert Organizations. And retired Colonel Chris Costa is currently the executive director of the International Spy Museum and has decades of experience running and participating in intelligence and special operations around the world.

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What are the origins of America’s longstanding policy of strategic ambiguity regarding Taiwan? How effective has that strategy been and, more urgently, how effective is it likely to remain? How has the military balance of power in the Taiwan Strait shifted, and what coercive methods does Beijing have at its disposal to subjugate Taipei?

In this episode, our guests explore these questions and more in a discussion that considers the prospect of a cross-strait conflict between China and Taiwan and the asymmetric defensive capabilities that Taipei needs to stave off an invasion by the People’s Liberation Army. Michael Brown is a visiting scholar at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University and previously served as the director of the Defense Innovation Unit. And Professor Larry Diamond is the William L. Clayton senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, where he cochairs the programs on China’s Global Sharp Power and on Taiwan in the Indo-Pacific Region.

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As the character of warfare changes, emerging technologies are influencing the direction—and the magnitude—of that change. But what can past technological revolutions teach us as we prepare for the new challenges combat leaders will face on the modern battlefield? In what specific ways will new technologies, from artificial intelligence to advanced cyber capabilities, affect militaries’ ability to mass combat power? And at the strategic and policy levels, what must leaders do to prepare forces for future, large-scale combat operations?

Ben Jebb and Adam Darnley-Stuart are joined on this episode by two guests who help explore these important questions. Lieutenant General Xavier T. Brunson is the commanding general of the US Army’s I Corps who has led US soldiers in multiple theaters around the globe. And Mick Ryan is a retired Australian Army major general who commanded soldiers at the platoon, regiment, task force, and brigade levels and is the author of the book War Transformed: The Future of Twenty-First Century Great Power Competition and Conflict.

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How does the National Defense Strategy distill guidance from the National Security Strategy down to the Pentagon? How does the US military operationalize the document’s guidance in practice? And how does the National Defense Strategy specifically shape the way the US armed services implement irregular warfare? We’re joined by two expert guests to address these questions and more. Dr. Kori Schake is a senior fellow and the director of foreign and defense policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute and has held senior positions across the US defense, national security, and foreign policy enterprise. Retired Brigadier General Chris Burns is a senior advisor to the Irregular Warfare Center who led US special operations units at multiple echelons during his thirty-six-year Army career. They share their insights in a fascinating discussion on this episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast.

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This episode explores the concepts of zero trust and persistence theory within the cyber domain and features a conversation with two guests: Mr. David McKeown serves as the acting DoD principal deputy chief information officer and Dr. Richard J. Harknett is professor and director of the School of Public and International Affairs and chair of the Center for Cyber Strategy and Policy at the University of Cincinnati.

In the discussion, they first define these two concepts—zero trust and persistance theory—before highlighting how they complement each other in practice. They continue by explaining the importance of seizing and maintaining the initiative in the cyber domain and how it would be more helpful to shift to a mindset of persistent campaigns and away from the idea of isolated cyberattacks. They conclude with thoughts on the implications for future cyber strategies.

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Somalia’s security landscape is complex, making the challenge of understanding the terrorist group al-Shabaab especially challenging. The group uses intricate methods to maintain its foothold in East Africa, complicating both international and indigenous efforts to counter the threat it poses. To examine al-Shabaab and the critical contextual influences unique to Somalia, this episode features a conversation with two guests. Mary Harper is the Africa editor at BBC World Service News and author of Everything You Have Told Me is True: The Many Faces of Al Shabaab. Sam Wilkins is an Army Special Forces officer with operational experience in Somalia. Together, their insights and expert perspectives help to paint a picture of the Somalia-based terrorist organization and its effects on security and stability in the region.

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What lessons can be found in India’s experience with counterinsurgency? Are there elements of India’s philosophical approach to counterinsurgency and its tactical innovations that can be applied by the United States in expeditionary counterinsurgency operations? In this episode, we’re joined by Sumit Ganguly, distinguished professor of political science at Indiana University Bloomington, and Sajid Shapoo, a decorated senior Indian Police Service officer and PhD candidate at Princeton University. Together, they tackle these questions and more as they assess the Indian approach to counterinsurgency.

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What are America’s interests in the Arctic? Are the traditional institutions that have governed interstate relations in the region equipped for an emerging period of intensified competition in the High North? And how is climate change affecting the strategic calculus of the United States, Russia, China, and other states? This episode tackles these questions and more as our guests—the Honorable Sherri Goodman, former deputy under secretary of defense for environmental security and current senior fellow at the Wilson Center, and Brigadier General Shawn Satterfield, commanding general of Special Operations Command North—join the podcast to examine the evolving relationship between climate change, Arctic security, and geopolitical competition.

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In this episode, we're joined by two guests to discuss how airpower can be a critical aspect of building partner capacity. Retired Brigadier General John Teichert and Colonel Tobias Bernard Switzer guests begin by highlighting past success of air advising and explaining aviation’s role in establishing access and influence with partner nations. They go on to explain how key air advising capabilities are being divested, presenting a capability gap between what combatant commanders are requesting and what the services can provide. Finally, they describe the implications of emerging technologies on future air advising and how models of air advising can adapt and be reprioritized.

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What role does promoting liberal values, such as human rights and democracy, play in security cooperation? How should the inherent tension between promoting liberal values and accomplishing national security objectives be managed when working with partner nations? Should policymakers deliberately seek to tie US values to security force assistance in the future? Our guests on this episode, Ambassador Dennis Ross and Dr. Renanah Joyce, share their insights on these questions and more.

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This episode explores how America’s security cooperation programs can help shape regional security environments by training foreign militaries. We're joined by two guests whose extensive practical and research experience is extraordinarily relevant to the subject. Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling is a national security and military analyst for CNN who served thirty-eight years in the US Army, culminating in command of US Army Europe. Professor Derek Reveron is the chair of national security affairs at the US Naval War College and the author of the book Exporting Security. Together, they address why America settled on security cooperation as a pillar of its global strategy, describe the important nuances associated with the implementation of security cooperation efforts, and discuss how past military cooperation efforts have shaped today’s regional security environment in Eastern Europe and what America can do to optimize its approach to security cooperation in the future.

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Is peace the natural order of things for the human race and war an aberration? Our guests on this episode, Dr. Chris Blattman and Mr. Teny Gross, argue that it is. They describe five theoretical mechanisms that cause breakdowns in societies and discuss why different groups end up resorting to violence. They then compare and contrast the characteristics of violence at the interpersonal, communal, and international levels. Finally, they end by discussing how third-party mediation at the local and transnational echelons can effectively employ peace-building mechanisms to bring an end to violence at all levels.

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This episode explores the interplay between urban spaces and irregular warfare. Our guests are John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point, and Sergeant Major Charles Ritter, deputy commondant of the Noncommissioned Officer Academy at the US Army's JFK Special Warfare Center and School. They begin by examining how demographic and economic shifts are increasing the importance of urban centers around the globe. They then explore the realities of urban combat and discuss the ways that densely populated areas and local politics can complicate irregular warfare activities, including the question of whether urban spaces favor the insurgent or the government. They end by discussing how the United States can address shortcomings in its force structure and training to optimize its approach to urban conflict in the twenty-first century.

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This episode explores the French experience with irregular warfare in the Sahel region of Africa since 2013 and features two guests. Brigadier General François-Marie Gougeon is a career officer in the French army who served as chief of staff for the UN Multidimensional Integrated Stabilization Mission in Mali from 2019 to 2020. Professor Will Reno is the chair of the Political Science Department at Northwestern University, the author of three books on African politics and warfare, and currently conducting research on foreign military assistance in weak states. They begin by explaining why the French were involved in combat operations in the Sahel and how their forces were organized against several armed insurgencies. They go on to explore the effectiveness, and shortfalls, of the light-footprint approach utilized by the French in Africa, to include in the area of building partner-force capacity, before emphasizing the essential role that local political dynamics play in irregular warfare success.

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This episode explores the conceptual structures that undergird irregular warfare. Dr. Thomas Marks and Chief Warrant Officer Maurice "Duc" DuClos join our hosts, beginning the discussion by addressing the various ways the US government defines irregular warfare. They continue by examining the interplay between nations and nonstate actors—and how sovereign states are increasingly adopting methods traditionally employed by irregular actors to achieve their larger geopolitical aims. Finally, they reflect on different frameworks that strategic- and operational-level professionals can use to plan, implement, and evaluate irregular warfare campaigns more effectively.

This episode contemplates lessons learned from America’s twenty years of war in Afghanistan. To do so, we're joined by Dr. Carter Malkasian, author of The American War in Afghanistan: A History, and James Cunningham, a senior analyst with SIGAR—the Office of the Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction. The discuss whether, in the year following the US withdrawal, the United States and its allies have sufficiently reflected on lessons learned from the war. They then describe various reasons why the intervention in Afghanistan failed, based on their extensive research and on-the-ground experience—to include multiple lessons from SIGAR reporting and Dr. Malkasian’s argument that the Taliban won because it fought for values close to what it means to be Afghan, including religion and resistance to occupation. Our guests conclude with policy implications we can draw from twenty years of strategy that ultimately resulted in failure.

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This episode explores both the recent history and the future character of insurgency. Our guests are former US Ambassador to Iraq, Turkey, and Albania James Jeffrey and Dr. David Ucko, a professor at the National Defense University and author of the book The Insurgent’s Dilemma: A Struggle to Prevail. They begin by arguing that insurgency will play an important role in great power competition, although states’ objectives will change from the transformational nation-building goals of the post-9/11 era to more hard-nosed security and political objectives. They then argue that despite perceived recent failures in counterinsurgency in cases such as the US intervention in Afghanistan, insurgencies rarely win—this has led insurgent groups to adopt new theories of victory. Lastly, our guests discuss policy implications, especially how to balance military and civilian means to counter insurgency.

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This episode dives into the internal workings and communications of al-Qaeda and uses that insight to draw lessons for counterterrorism strategies. From the 2011 raid that killed Osama bin Laden to the recent strike against Ayman al-Zawahiri, targeting key leaders has been a cornerstone of recent counterterrorism strategies, but what do these terrorist leaders have to say about the effectiveness of the campaigns against them? Retired General David Petraeus and Dr. Nelly Lahoud join hosts Laura Jones and Jeff Phaneuf to discuss how decapitation strikes fit into broader counterterrorism strategies, including what insights we can glean from the treasure trove of digital information gathered from the Abbottabad compound after bin Laden's death.

This episode focuses on the US intelligence community and its role in supporting the spectrum of national security missions, from the heavy counterterrorism focus of the post-9/11 era to today's environment of strategic competition. Dr. Amy Zegart, author of the book Spies, Lies, and Algorithms: The History and Future of American Intelligence, and Ms. Susan Gordan, former principal deputy director of national intelligence, join the podcast to explore the evolution of the intelligence community, particularly since 9/11. They explain the increasing influence of technology and cyberspace and reflect on ways in which the intelligence community might continue to adapt and retain its competitive advantage while the United States continues to face a multitude of threats and missions across all domains of warfare.

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How do terrorist organizations and other nonstate armed groups finance their activities? And just as importantly, how can the United States and its allies counter those streams of money? Those questions are the focus of this episode. Our guests are Dr. Margaret Sankey, research coordinator at Air University's Office of Sponsored Programs, and John Cassara, a twenty-six-year of various federal intelligence and law enforcement agencies whose career focused on anti–money laundering and terrorist financing. They address both of these overarching questions before offering insight on interagency cooperation and tracking the money pushed into combat zones or to partner forces.

In this episode, the second in our two-part series focused on irregular warfare in Ukraine, we're once again joined by Michael Kofman and Kent DeBenedictis. After hearing them discuss Russia’s conception and employment of irregular warfare in Ukraine in the previous episode, the conversation now turns to the Ukrainian response to Russian attacks, to include how Ukraine has utilized irregular warfare to counter Russia and built resilience in the Ukrainian population and infrastructure. Our guests also discuss the effectiveness of external assistance provided to Ukraine before and during the 2022 invasion.

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In this first episode of our two-part series focused on irregular warfare in Ukraine, we're joined by Michael Kofman, the research program director in the Russia Studies Program at the Center for Naval Analyses, and Kent DeBenedictis, a US Army officer and author of the book Russian ‘Hybrid Warfare’ and the annexation of Crimea: The Modern Application of Soviet Political Warfare. They begin by exploring how Russia conceptualizes and implements irregular warfare at the macro level. They then explain how it has been operationalized in Ukraine specifically over the past decade, before discussing the interaction between irregular and conventional warfare in Ukraine between 2014 and the lead-up to Russia’s invasion in 2022.

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Plan Colombia has been described as a model of successful counterinsurgency and foreign internal defense at a time when large footprints in Iraq and Afghanistan have had mixed results. In this episode, we're joined by two guests. Alberto José Mejía Ferrero served as the general commander of the Military Forces of Colombia and has worked closely with American forces throughout his career. Dr. David Spencer is a professor at the William J. Perry Center for Hemispheric Defense Studies at the National Defense University and coauthored of A Great Perhaps? Colombia: Conflict and Divergence. They reflect on their extensive firsthand experience to outline the key components of Plan Colombia, and more broadly to discuss its successes and shortcomings as a model for counterinsurgency and military intervention in the future.

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This episode explores how cyber tools and weapons are used at the tactical level within irregular warfare. Our guests, Dr. Trey Herr and Major Sally White, highlight some of the limitations of executing tactical cyber operations. They also provide insights into how information operations and cyber tools can be integrated together in the irregular warfare space for better utility and to influence target populations through both physical and digital effects. They conclude by noting that tactical cyber capabilities are still at the developmental stage and face constraints with authorities and legalities, and offer their takes on how to best utilize the domain for tactical irregular warfare operations.

Since completing its terraforming and island reclamation projects in the Spratly Islands in 2016, the People’s Republic of China has shifted its emphasis to asserting dominance over the South China Sea. A key component of this pivot has been the expansion of China’s maritime militia—a force of vessels ostensibly engaged in commercial activity, but which in fact conducts operations in concert with Chinese law enforcement and military institutions to help the party-state achieve its military and political aims in the South China Sea’s disputed waters. Gregory B. Poling and Colonel Sean Berg join this episode to discuss China’s gray zone strategy in littoral Asia, and the role that the maritime militia plays in advancing China’s illegal sovereignty claims.

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In this episode, we consider how extremists of all types have exploited maneuver space online, and what this means for efforts to counter violent extremism today. To do so, we're joined by Nick Rasmussen, executive director of the Global Internet Forum to Counter Terrorism, and Dr. Daniel Byman, professor at Georgetown University’s Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service whose most recent book is Spreading Hate: The Global Rise of White Supremacist Terrorism. They discuss how the online environment has changed over the past fifteen years, creating opportunities for violent extremists and challenges for the stakeholders working to counter their efforts. They also describe both emerging and enduring threats facing the counterterrorism community, before considering how governments and civil society can work to identify, disrupt, and prevent violent extremism in ways that balance security, free expression, privacy, and trust.

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From dynamite in the early twentieth century to drones, bioweapons, and private-sector satellite constellations today, lethal technologies are increasingly available to nonstate actors and individuals. At a time when states are focused on competition and potential conflict between great powers, the decentralization of today’s low-end technologies could equip nonstate actors, private companies, and terrorists with unprecedented irregular and asymmetric capabilities. In this episode, Professor Audrey Kurth Cronin and Major General Patrick B. Roberson join to discuss the history of technological innovation, examples of current and burgeoning technologies that will impact future warfare, and how governments can (and sometimes cannot) regulate the development and distribution of potentially dangerous technologies to malign actors.

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It has become axiomatic that cultural intelligence is key to success in counterinsurgency operations. But is it? This episode examines this assumption, exploring whether the cultural training we receive in the military is indeed the linchpin to success—or a red herring, even a harmful distractor, in the absence of coherent strategy. Why does cultural awareness tend to be absent at the strategic level, and does this really matter? Our guests on this episode, Sir Simon Mayall and Dr. Christian Tripodi, discuss these questions and more, including what cultural awareness should mean in the context of counterinsurgency and, looking ahead, in the era of great power competition.

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How do significant historical events and Russian cultural memory—especially those surrounding the collapse of the Soviet Union—shape the Russian worldview? How do they motiviate Russia President Vladimir Putin? And what impact does that have on the way Russia employs hybrid warfare? In this episode, Shashank Joshi and Dr. Rob Person join to discuss these questions and more, including potential Western responses to an increasingly aggressive Russia. They conclude by exploring some of the implications for both the public and the practitioner.

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Russia, China, and Iran have all been learning how to conduct irregular warfare from the United States, modeling their approaches to IW on observations of recent US interventions in the world. This episode examines strategic competition with these three states—specifically how it plays out in the Middle East. Our guests, Dr. Seth Jones and Rear Admiral Mitch Bradley, discuss how all three of these US competitors have used irregular warfare to achieve a position of geopolitical advantage over the United States. They go on to propose a solution, one that employs irregular warfare as part of an integrated strategy of deterrence and that requires the United States to look beyond platforms and invest in education, talent management, and human capital.

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​​A fundamental change in warfare is occurring, one that risks rendering the American way of war obsolete. As China uses technology to enhance the primacy of its kill chain, the United States has pursued a method of war that is platform-centric—and could prove dangerously outdated. Our guests on this episode, General David Berger and Christian Brose, discuss the radically different approach to warfighting the United States needs to avoid finding itself completely outmatched by China militarily—with devastating consequences for America’s place in the world and for the global norms which we now take for granted.

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What is the role of security force assistance in achieving national security objectives? Where did security force assistance work well in the post-9/11 era, and where was it unsuccessful? How did policy considerations differ from tactical implementation? And most importantly, how can research and experience from the past twenty years of war inform ongoing partner-building activities in a decidedly different Indo-Pacific theater? Retired Lieutenant General Larry Nicholson and Dr. Barbara Elias join this episode to tackle these questions and more.

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Irregular warfare is executed across all domains. In the air, the responsibility for IW falls to Air Force Special Operations Command. Today, the command stands at an inflection point in which it must prepare to compete against great powers while continuing the fight against violent extremist organizations. How must AFSOC change in order to meet divergent demands for specialized airpower? This episode featured a conversation with two guests who address that question: Lt. Gen. James C. Slife, commander of AFSOC, and Dr. Richard Norton, a retired Air Force officer and adjunct professor at the Joint Special Operations University.

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In counterinsurgency warfare, how can powerful states reform corrupt or repressive governments into legitimate ones? Our guests on this episode, Jacqueline L. Hazelton and Anne-Marie Slaughter, discuss this fundamental challenge and explain two competing models of counterinsurgency that take different approaches to it. The first is the good governance model, which has dominated both scholarship and COIN practice over recent decades. But the second, the compellence model, might actually better explain COIN success in the past. The discussion concludes with a reflection on both the opportunities and the limits of US power in potential future interventions.

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In the aftermath of the military withdrawal from Afghanistan and the country's chaotic collapse, it is easy to forget the prominent role that the United States played in building, leading, and sustaining a forty-nation coalition for the war effort—a task that required some determined diplomacy and a sophisticated understanding of what each country brought to the table. As the United States pivots to the Indo-Pacific region and the competition with China for legitimacy and influence below the level of armed conflict, the question becomes whether coalition building is the right approach for new challenges and a new strategic environment. Retired US Army Lieutenant General Douglas Lute and retired Australian Army Major General Duncan Lewis both have deep experience working with coalitions, both as senior officers and in diplomatic roles. They join this episode to share their experiences and lessons for the future.

hroughout history, IW organizations have undergone dramatic changes at all levels to meet the demands of new operating environments and threats. The book The Changing of the Guard: The British Army since 9/11 explores the difficulties the British Army faced trying to reorganize for irregular warfare in Iraq and Afghanistan. Simon Akam, the book's author, is one of our guests on this episode, and he provides listeners with lessons learned and key takeaways from the British experience that can guide ongoing organizational changes. Our other guest is retired General John Allen, who draws on his decades of experience at the highest levels of military leadership and policy, giving his perspective on how IW organizations can successfully meet the needs of strategic competition.

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What is the intersection between cyber and irregular warfare? Should the United States consider cyberspace a typical or exquisite domain? How did the counterterrorism fight serve as a proving ground for the application of these emerging capabilities? This episode examines the character of cyber warfare—both in its relationship to irregular warfare and in its applicability to broader national security approaches—and features a conversation with Dr. Jacquelyn Schneider and Admiral Mike Rogers.

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Will the role and capabilities required of special operations forces change in a geopolitical context characterized by great power competition? How will SOF balance enduring counterterrorism missions with new requirements to deter great power rivals? This episode examines those questions and more and features a discussion with General Richard Clarke, commander of US Special Operations Command, and Linda Robinson, a leading researcher on special operations forces and author of two books on the subject.

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What lessons should the United States and its allies take from twenty years of irregular warfare since 9/11? What will the future of irregular warfare look like? Episode 38 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast is a recording of the keynote policy panel, featuring prominent scholars and practitioners, from the inaugural Irregular Warfare Initiative conference held on September 10, 2021. The panelists address these questions and discuss the overarching theme of the changing character of irregular warfare.

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Foreign fighters play an influential role in Islamic extremist groups. They tend to be more violent, more committed, and more resistant to reconciliation than their indigenous counterparts. Perhaps most significantly, they act as vectors of extremism, moving between zones of conflict, and sometimes returning to their countries of origin to instigate acts of terrorism. Our guests on this episode, Jasmine El-Gamal and Nate Rosenblatt, have researched the problem extensively for almost two decades. They predict that the next wave of extremism fueled by this phenomenon is gathering momentum even now and could pose an even greater threat to global security than its predecessors.

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When information can travel globally at the tap of a finger, irregular warfare professionals must contend with an ever-changing environment. How does strategic messaging tie into operations on the battlefield? How can we build a more information-savvy force? And how can information act as both weapon and warfighting space? Raphael Cohen and Brent Colburn join this episode to discuss these vital questions and more.

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What lessons should the United States military take from twenty years of war in Afghanistan? This episode focuses on US efforts in the Pech valley, where the United States waged an enduring counterinsurgency and counterterrorism campaign over many years. Our guests, Wesley Morgan and retired Colonel Bill Ostlund, argue that the Pech represents a microcosm of the broader US war effort in Afghanistan, and that the collapse of the Afghan government following the withdrawal of US forces from the country in August 2021 was foreseeable by looking at what happened in the valley after US forces withdrew years earlier.

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How does China operate in the space between war and peace to gain strategic advantage in Asia and globally? What do these gray zone activities look like, and how do they facilitate China’s influence in the region? What are the consequences of inconsistent US policy and posture in the Pacific in countering China’s rise? This episode features a conversation with Ambassador David Shear and Dr. Zack Cooper, who explore what China's efforts in the gray zone mean for the United States.

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The United States and other nations have spent billions of dollars and invested untold effort, not to mention lives, in a global campaign against Islamist terrorism—and yet the threat landscape is arguably worse now than it was on 9/11. Despite the importance for national security of understanding how to wage irregular warfare effectively, something in the American way of war, the fundamental culture of the US military, prevents us from doing so. William Wechsler and retired Colonel Liam Collins join this episode to discuss the question of what needs to be done to reverse this trend and thus ensure that the United States can recover from the mistakes of the past, restore its credibility, and return to its place of prominence on the global stage.

The US military and its allies are faced with the challenges of shifting focus toward great power competition while still maintaining the ability to counter threats on the fringes. Where does irregular warfare fit in this new strategic landscape? This episode explores the role of land forces within great power competition. Chief of Staff of the Army General James C. McConville and Dr. Peter Roberts of the Royal United Services Institute discuss the implications for land forces within this strategic shift from counterterrorism to a national security strategy oriented on great power competition, including the role of irregular warfare and shaping the environment as ways to deter near-peer competitors.

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US Army Special Forces units continued to quietly operate in Afghanistan when conventional troops withdrew around 2015. These soldiers have worked closely with Afghan commandos and government partners to hold the hard-won and fragile stability. What happens when they leave the country this summer? This episode examines that question and features two guests with experiences and perspectives that uniquely equip them to do so. Jessica Donati covers foreign affairs and national security for the Wall Street Journal, having served as the paper's bureau chief while reporting from Afghanistan between 2013 and 2017. Colonel Brad Moses is a US Army Special Forces officer who most recently served as the deputy chief of staff for strategy and policy, United States Forces Afghanistan and Operation Resolute Support.

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Special operations forces have been a favorite national security tool during the United States' post-9/11 wars. However, the release of the 2017 National Security Strategy pivoted the United States’ strategic focus from terrorism to near-peer competitors China and Russia. What will be the role of special operations forces (SOF) in this era of great power competition? Where is SOF falling short in the shift to meet this new focus area? Former Under Secretary of Defense for policy Michèle Flournoy and retired Admiral Eric T. Olson join this episode to discuss.

A new US administration is eager to reengage with both allies and competitors, reasserting the role of global leader that the United States has claimed since World War II. At the same time, former partners wary of indications of US withdrawal from the global stage no longer look to the United States for leadership and current adversaries emboldened by apparent US apathy toward their breaching of international norms are no longer cowed into restraint. Retired Lt. Gen. Michael K. Nagata and Dr. Anthony Cordesman join this episode to discuss how these conditions developed and what can be done to reverse the apparent decline.

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How did the United States leverage local partners in the fight against the Islamic State? What were the unique dynamics of partnering with the Kurdish People’s Protection Units, particularly the Women’s Protection Units? What can this case teach us about warfare, will, and relationships? Gayle Tzemach Lemmon, author of the New York Times best-selling book The Daughters of Kobani, and retired General Joseph Votel, former commander of US Central Command, join this episode to discuss these questions and more.

What would a conflict with China look like? How will irregular warfare fit into a conflict before and during large-scale combat operations? Retired Admiral James Stavridis and Elliot Ackerman explore the theme of escalation to large-scale conflict in their New York Times best seller 2034: A Novel of the Next World War, and they join this episode to discuss those questions and more.

In this episode, we discuss US counterinsurgency efforts in Iraq's Anbar province, Iraq—from the 2006 surge through the rise of the Islamic State in 2013–2014—with two guests who both experienced the US COIN fight firsthand. Retired General Robert Neller served as the commandant as the Marine Corps and in 2005–2007, he was the deputy commanding general of I Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward) in Anbar. Dr. Carter Malkasian is a historian who served as an advisor to US military leadership in Iraq and is the author of Illusions of Victory: The Anbar Awakening and the Rise of the Islamic State.

How can the military and civilians work together to prevent or manage conflict? Two seminal policy initiatives, the Stabilization Assistance Review and the Global Fragility Act, provide important answers by emphasizing an alignment of defense, development, and diplomatic efforts and delineating clear roles for respective actors in addressing violence and instability. This episode examines how they have fundamentally reshaped the way the US government conceives and responds to conflict around the world based on lessons learned from places like Afghanistan and Iraq.

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Aviation has played an important role in irregular warfare, from its use by the British against rebellious tribesmen in Iraq and Transjordan in the interwar period to the era of the unblinking eye and precision strike in Afghanistan. Our guests in this episode—retired US Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas Trask and Dr. James Kiras—discuss this evolution in the use of airpower to support ground forces. As they explain, rapid technological advances have helped perfect the employment of airpower, and yet the role of aviation in war has not significantly changed to this point. However, that with the transition to more distributed operations across the globe, it will no longer be possible to provide the level of responsive support to which the US military has become accustomed.

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Irregular warfare practitioners have played a major role in just about every war over the past 250 years. In this episode, Dr. John Arquilla and Maj. Gen. John Brennan explain how the masters of irregular warfare have been able to achieve strategic effects even while losing tactical-level engagements—and offer recommendations for how to prepare and employ irregular warfare capabilities to address the major threats to US national security in the future.

SPECIAL NOTE: We recently announced the launch of a new project—the Irregular Warfare Initiative. Along with the podcast episodes we release every two weeks, we are now publishing regular written content—commentary and analysis on a range of topics related to irregular warfare. If you would like to submit an article for consideration, please email [email protected].

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As policymakers’ focus shifts from counterterrorism to great power competition, the implications for special operations forces are unclear. In this episode, our guests—Senator Joni Ernst and Owen West, a former Assistant Secretary of Defense for Special Operations and Low-Intensity Conflict—argue that SOF is uniquely suited to address irregular warfare challenges in the era of great power competition. However, limited understanding of these threats among policymakers in Washington, budget constraints, and outdated authorities hinder SOF’s ability to evolve. According to our guests, civilian leadership and oversight can help overcome these challenges.

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What drives illicit violence by substate groups such as terrorists, insurgents, and criminals—and how can states counter these threats? Our guests in this episode, Juan Zarate and Gary Shiffman, argue that social science provides tools to understand why illicit violence occurs. And by understanding why it occurs, states can develop targeted sanctions and military strategies that disassemble and disrupt violent nonstate groups. This approach has implications for how policymakers and practitioners can counter violent actors from the strategic to the tactical level.

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Australia is undergoing the most fundamental strategic realignment since the Second World War, toward a focus on threats closer to home without reliance on the United States. In that context, what role does irregular warfare play in Australian national security strategy? What lessons does the Australian experience hold for the United States as they both transition from the post-9/11 wars to great power competition? David Kilcullen and Andy Maher join this episode to discuss.

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In 2016, the Colombian government and FARC rebels signed a peace deal, ending over five decades of guerrilla war. What lessons can be gleaned from the case for the irregular warfare community? Former US Ambassador to Colombia Kevin Whitaker and former assistant secretary of defense for special operations and low-intensity conflict Caryn Hollis argue that effective US interagency coordination, bipartisan congressional support, and a focus on building institutions and stabilizing the security situation were key ingredients to success in Colombia’s efforts against the insurgency. But more important than anything was that the Colombian government and population owned the commitment to resolve the conflict.

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Information in its many forms has become a significant component of national power—the primary medium of competition between the United States and its adversaries. Our guests in this episode tackle that subject. Lt. Gen. Lori Reynolds is the US Marine Corps’ deputy commandant for information and Dr. Thomas Rid is a professor of strategic studies at Johns Hopkins University’ School of Advanced International Studies. Both are experts in their respective fields, each looking at this competition from opposing perspectives—one as a practitioner focused on the employment of military information power toward US national security goals, the other as a political scientist and historian who has investigated the strategic use of disinformation against the United States.

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What role do information and intelligence play in counterinsurgency? How can artificial intelligence assist in tracking and identifying insurgent or terrorist activity? What are some of the opportunities and challenges of using AI in irregular warfare contexts? Retired Gen. Stan McChrystal and Dr. Anshu Roy tackle those questions and more in this episode. They argue that AI allows counterinsurgent and counterterrorist forces to aggregate and process massive amounts of data that illuminates and even predicts insurgent activity. However, there are challenges that come with this groundbreaking opportunity.

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Where does irregular warfare fit within the framework of national security policy? Does the recently released Irregular Warfare Annex to the National Defense Strategy attenuate focus, or relegate irregular warfare to a policy afterthought? How can irregular warfare concepts become enduring elements of a comprehensive effort toward competition and conflict with US adversaries? Those questions are at the center of this conversation with two guests: Retired Col. David Maxwell, a thirty-year US Army veteran and senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, and Mr. Deak Roh, the acting principal director in the office of the deputy assistant secretary of defense for special operations and combating terrorism.

What role do private military companies such as Russia’s Wagner Group play on the modern battlefield? How should US policymakers and US and allied troops in conflict zones manage threats from armed groups when Russia denies their existence? Is war by private armies a rising trend in modern conflict? The guests featured in this episode explore those questions and more.

When, why, and under what circumstances does security force assistance work? This episode focuses on best practices of security force assistance, along with challenges, realistic expectations, and the role it will play for the United States in an era of great power competition with guests Dr. Mara Karlin, author of the book Building Militaries and Fragile States: Challenges for the United States, and Brig. Gen. Scott Jackson, commanding general of the US Army's Security Force Assistance Command.

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This episode features a conversation with retired Gen. David Petraeus. He served over thirty-seven years in the US military, including as commander of coalition forces during the surge in Iraq, commander of US Central Command, and commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan. He outlines lessons he argues the United States should have learned from two decades of fighting Islamist extremists, explains how US dominance in the particular areas allows it to support partners against violent extremist organizations using small and sustainable footprints, and provides his thoughts on the recently released Irregular Warfare Annex to the National Defense Strategy and how irregular warfare is situated within the context of rising great power rivalry.

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General David Petraeus served over 37 years in the U.S. military to include as commander of coalition forces during the surge in Iraq, commander of U.S. Central Command, and commander of coalition forces in Afghanistan. Following his service in the military, Gen. Petraeus served as the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. He is a 1974 graduate of West Point and received his Ph.D. in international relations from the School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton University. General Petraeus currently is a Partner at KKR, a global investment firm, and Chairman of the KKR Global Institute.

What are unconventional warfare and foreign subversion? Will they be important in an era of great power competition? What are some of the second- and third-order effects when states use subversion to undermine their rivals? Retired Lt. Gen. Ken Tovo and Dr. Melissa Lee join the Irregular Warfare Podcast to discuss these topics and more.

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This episode is a deep dive into insurgency and counterinsurgency in the Philippines, presented through the perspectives of two guests with many years of experience in Philippine counterinsurgency efforts. Dr. Joe Felter and retired Col. Dennis Eclarin discuss the history and evolution of insurgency and counterinsurgency in the Philippines, with a focus on US support to building effective counterinsurgency forces in both the pre- and post- 9/11 eras. Based on shared operational perspectives and collaboration on research—specifically an extensive micro-conflict database—they describe what makes COIN forces effective. They then discuss the implications of their lessons learned for counterinsurgency and security efforts around the world.

What is the human domain of warfare, and will it be more or less relevant in great power competition? Who should own it? What does it take to change how the Department of Defense thinks about war? In this episode, Nick Lopez and Kyle Atwell dig into these questions and more with retired Brig. Gen. Kim Field and Dr. Sue Bryant. The conversation goes beyond defining the human domain of warfare, as the guests reveal how policy changes are considered within the Defense Department bureaucracy based on their experiences.

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Are the US Marines better at counterinsurgency than the US Army? How about the British Army? If so, why? If not then what else might explain success and failure in different counterinsurgency campaigns over time? In this episode, Kyle Atwell and Nick Lopez discuss these questions with Dr. Colin Jackson and Dr. Austin Long.

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In Episode 8 of the Irregular Warfare Podcast, hosts Nick Lopez and Shawna Sinnott speak to best-selling authors August Cole and P.W. Singer to discuss how they see the future of irregular warfare and implications for policymakers, practitioners, and academics. The guests have conducted extensive research on how technology will drastically affect society, the economy, and all things defense-related. They use this research to tell action-packed stories, to include the best seller Ghost Fleet: a Novel of the Next World War and their recently released Burn In: A Novel of the Real Robotic Revolution.

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In this episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast, Shawna Sinnott and Kyle Atwell discuss the history and context of proxy and partner warfare in the Middle East with Ambassador Ryan Crocker and Dr. Eli Berman. This is the second of a two-part discussion on fighting irregular warfare through proxy forces.

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In this episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast, Kyle Atwell and Shawna Sinnott discuss proxy and partner warfare in Africa with retired Maj. Gen. Marcus Hicks and Dr. Eli Berman. Eli and Mark discuss the objectives of proxy and partner warfare, the tools available to influence local agents, and whether the United States should increase or decrease its military and diplomatic footprint across Africa in an era of renewed great-power competition. The episode is the first in a two-part series on proxies and irregular warfare.

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In this episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast, Kyle Atwell and Nick Lopez discuss the inner workings of nonstate armed groups in Syria and Iraq with Dr. Vera Mironova of Harvard University and Dr. Daniel Milton of the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point. The conversation is based on analysis of ISIS documents captured on the battlefield and hundreds of interviews with civilians and fighters on the front lines.

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What are the mechanics and politics that determine how the US government approaches irregular conflicts? That's the question at the center of this episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast. Hosts Nick Lopez and Kyler Atwell are joined by Mark Mitchell, former acting assistant secretary of defense for special operations and low-intensity conflict, and Pete Villano, who spent a decade as a professional staff member on the House Armed Services Committee.

This episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast features a conversation with two guests about an important question: Does building partner military capacity work? Dr. Stephen Biddle is a professor of international and public affairs at Columbia University and served as an advisor to Gen. David Petraeus and Gen. Stanley McChrystal during the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Matt Cancian is a doctoral candidate in political science at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a former Marine officer who has researched Western efforts to build partner capacity among the Kurdish Pershmerga during the fight against ISIS.

Intro music: "Unsilenced" by Ketsa
Outro music: "Launch" by Ketsa
CC BY-NC-ND 4.0

In the second episode of the Irregular Warfare Podcast, a collaboration between the Modern War Institute and Princeton University’s Empirical Studies of Conflict Project, hosts Nick Lopez and Shawna Sinnott speak to Dr. Jenna Jordan and Dr. Asfandyar Mir. They discuss counterterrorism, the use of drones, and whether targeting terrorist groups' leaders is an effective strategy.

Intro music: "Unsilenced" by Ketsa
Outro music: "Launch" by Ketsa
CC BY-NC-ND 4.0

The Irregular Warfare Podcast is a new collaboration between the Modern War Institute at West Point and Princeton University's Empirical Studies of Conflict Project. In this inaugural episode, hosts Kyle Atwell and Nick Lopez talk to Jake Shapiro, co-director of ESOC and Col. Pat Howell, director of MWI. The conversation tackles important questions about what are often called "small wars," including material covered in Jake's book, Small Wars, Big Data.

New episodes of the Irregular Warfare Podcast will be released every two weeks.

Intro music: "Unsilenced" by Ketsa
Outro music: "Launch" by Ketsa
CC BY-NC-ND 4.0