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Every day, people surround us wearing art, history, and culture, but we usually don’t pay attention. Most people think about jewelry as an afterthought or accessory. But jewelry can tell a larger story, one reflecting the connection between contemporary culture and that of yesteryear.
Is jewelry clothing, art, status symbol, or something more? The jewelry world seems to be hidden in plain sight and little understood. The Jewelry Journey podcast explores the many aspects of jewelry and its status as art. We talk with those who live and breathe this form of adornment: makers, dealers, gallerists, academics collectors and more. The goal is to elevate the conversation beyond Etsy or big diamonds and see jewelry in a new light, so that we can appreciate the little pieces of wonder that float by each day.
The podcast Jewelry Journey Podcast is created by Sharon Berman. The podcast and the artwork on this page are embedded on this page using the public podcast feed (RSS).
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sharon Berman
Sharon Berman is managing principal of Berbay Marketing & Public Relations, specializing in working with professionals to create the visibility and credibility that fuel revenue growth. After 20 years of positioning lawyers and other trusted advisors as experts, Sharon launched Arts and Jewelry and expanded her scope to include professionals in the decorative arts and jewelry fields.
A passionate jewelry collector, Sharon is studying for her GIA Graduate Gemology diploma. She is on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum, and is a member of the Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts, American Society of Jewelry Historians, Society of Jewellery Historians and Society of North American Goldsmiths.
Sharon writes and speaks frequently about business development and marketing for professionals. She has been a speaker at the Antique & Estate Jewelry Conference (“Jewelry Camp”).
Sharon earned her undergraduate degree at UCLA and her MBA at USC.
Additional Links to Articles About Sharon and Her Life:
For donations in lieu of flowers, please follow the next link to Simms Mann program at UCLA, which was important to Sharon and Jonathan:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone! Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast.
Jonathan: In fact, it's not going to be Sharon today. I'm Jonathan Kramer, known to some as Mr. Sharon Berman, and I'll open this podcast with some news, not unexpected in some quarters. Sharon passed away in August 2024 from the long-term effects of cancer. Sharon lived a long and productive life. Even after her cancer diagnosis some nine years ago and her prognosis that she would only live for five years, she soldiered through, did an amazing job of prolonging her life, and in some important ways, did that through this Jewelry Journey Podcast.
In the podcast you're about to hear, Sharon's jewelry journey is going to be the subject. My youngest daughter, Aleah Kramer, is interviewing Sharon. This interview took place a couple of months before Sharon's passing. It's going to be the same thing you've heard before about a person's jewelry journey, but it's going to be very personal to Sharon.
Sharon's jewelry journey with me began 32 plus years ago when we were dating each other, and it was very clear that we were going to get married. Sharon made it very clear that I should not bother to buy her an engagement ring and that she would take care of that herself. That was very typical of the Sharon I would come to know and love and typical of her approach to jewelry. She didn't want to leave it to me to pick out her engagement ring and just said to me, “Don't worry about that.”
She ended up ordering some diamonds to evaluate from Empire State Jewelers in the Empire State Building. I remember that. She picked out the stone she liked, and she picked out the setting that she wanted it to be and had it constructed. That should have told me three decades ago that I was with a very special woman who knew her taste in jewelry and wasn't going to be sidetracked in that. That was actually the beginning of my jewelry journey with Sharon.
Her jewelry journey has been one of passion and pleasure, and she's become quite the well-known person, even before she began this series of podcasts. I'm amazingly proud of what she's accomplished in terms of her own jewelry journey, and I have to say she's had an exquisite palate in the selecting and enjoyment of jewelry. She didn't just buy jewelry to collect it. She wore her jewelry all the time. It was a source of pleasure, and it made her feel comfortable. Her jewelry was a source of comfort for her.
She would find these incredible makers and go out and interview them and purchase their goods. She really supported emerging artists. That was one of the gateways to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She wanted to share that enthusiasm for the up-and-coming makers with people that she talked with all the time. The more she talked to people, the more people said, “You know what? You should do a podcast and share this.” That's how the Jewelry Journey Podcast really started, some 225-ish episodes ago.
We're going to leave the podcast up for people to listen to and hopefully enjoy and learn from. It will be a good and honorable tribute to Sharon's jewelry journey to do that.
With that, I'm going to let Aleah do the magic of editing here. She's been the editor of these podcasts and has done an amazing job pulling all of this together. I am deeply grateful for her participation in the podcast and, more importantly, the fact that she and Sharon were really partners in this jewelry journey. I am indebted to Sharon for really opening Aleah's eyes to the jewelry journey. Aleah has become an exquisite collector and has gotten as much joy out of collecting as Sharon. With that, we’ll go to the podcast that Sharon talks about her jewelry journey, and then I'll come back at the end to close this out.
Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey. I'm your host, Sharon Berman, and today we have a bit of a different episode. I have a few announcements to make, and then I'm going to share some of my jewelry journey. To help me with that, I'm going to introduce Aleah Kramer. First, thank you all for listening. If this is your first time, a big welcome. If you are familiar with this podcast, welcome back.
I'm sorry to report that we suddenly lost several gems in the jewelry world. One of them is Cookie Lewis, who I can't say had a defined role, but she was my best friend. I've known her for 30 years and have been very friendly for the past 20 years, and she really got me into jewelry.
Cookie was a very nice person, but I think anybody who knew her for any length of time would say she's a tough cookie. She had definite opinions that were difficult to change. I wouldn't always listen, but I knew she knew her stuff. I saw salespeople who would look at her when she contradicted them. They would look at her like, “Lady, you don't know what you're talking about,” but they'd go back and ask, and sure enough, she was right. Then they would take something out of one case and put it in another. She knew her stones and could always identify the flaws in stones much better than I could, despite all the study I've done. Cookie Lewis will be missed.
The next gem that we lost is Robert Allen. Robert did our transcriptions. Robert did transcriptions for me for eight to 10 years, but for the Jewelry Journey since its inception. He had great analytical skills, as did Cookie, but they were both creative in their different ways. In my experience, I've found that people who are good at analysis aren't really the best people for creative endeavors. I thought they both could look outside of their analytical areas and look at the creative aspects of their profession.
For instance, every year about Christmas time, Robert Allen would call me with a different idea. "Hey Sharon, I was thinking, what do you think of this?" Then he'd go into it. I can't tell you that I always accepted them or implemented them, but I thought it was really nice that he thought about it. I'll miss that.
Our new co-host has been involved in the podcast for a long time but behind the scenes. Now she's coming out of the shadows. Her name is Aleah Kramer, and she's been a producer, an editor, a transcriber, and a pinch hitter. She's also my stepdaughter. She's also joined me on several voyages that I've gone on for the Jewelry Journey, and I would say that is really her métier. She knows it very well, art jewelry.
Aleah: Thank you so much, Sharon. That was such a lovely introduction. Hi, everybody. My name is Aleah Kramer, and I am so excited that we're going to share some of your jewelry journey today.
Sharon, you always ask your guests a few important questions, and I've always wondered what your answers to these questions are. I wanted to ask you, how did you first become interested in jewelry?
Sharon: I think I first became interested in jewelry because I liked jewelry, but really it was Cookie Lewis who drew me into jewelry. She introduced me to estate jewelry, and from there I was off and running.
Aleah: What are some of your favorite types of jewelry?
Sharon: I like contemporary jewelry, some art jewelry. I used to like it a lot more. And estate jewelry of any kind. By estate jewelry, I mean used jewelry. That's how most people would define it.
Aleah: I often hear you ask your guests about collecting and what defines a collector. What do you define as a collector?
Sharon: That's a hard-to-answer question. I've been asked that before. I still don't have a good answer. What is a collector? A collector can be somebody who has three or more of the same kind of piece, three or more pieces by the same named jeweler or the same named maker. I really don't have a definition, and here I'm asking everybody who comes on what they define as a collector.
Somebody told me they thought they were a really good shepherd of jewelry, and I thought that was interesting. I'm not sure that really fits the bill, but it was interesting to hear. What do you define as a collector, Aleah?
Aleah: Oh, I'm too early in the biz to have any definitions. I'm interested in exploring all of the avenues and creating some definitions, but I am definitely not defining anything yet.
Sharon: Okay, I think that's very smart.
Aleah: Do you have a favorite piece of jewelry? I know you have a beautiful and extensive collection. Do you have a favorite piece of jewelry or a favorite artist?
Sharon: Well, I have maybe one or two pieces by named artists, Cartier, that sort of thing. But I don't collect Cartier. The name people, I might have one piece, not because I was collecting or gathering them together. Not, “Oh, I have a piece by A, now I want a piece by B or C.” They just came to me, or I liked them.
I don't have a favorite piece, except I would say there is a person in France who does beautiful, large rings. I happen to like statement jewelry. It has to be large, and it has to make a statement. It has to be a statement piece. Her name is Sylvie Corbelin, and she's represented here by Lionel Geneste. We just did a podcast with him. I'm probably butchering his name, but he represents her. She is a very talented and creative person.
Aleah: She makes some really exquisite jewelry with high-end materials, such beautiful gold and such beautiful gemstones. They end up looking like paintings and works of art that you can wear on your finger or on your neck or as earrings.
Sharon: It's a good way to describe it. Some of it is just very pretty! Pretty and unusual.
Aleah: How long have you been a part of Art Jewelry Forum?
Sharon: For about 10 years or more, but I was involved for maybe a couple of years. I'm not currently involved. I just look at what they have and the people they have on.
Aleah: How did you get involved? How did you find them?
Sharon: I found them because I was looking for ways to travel and learn about jewelry. When I found them, I didn't even know what art jewelry was, and I wasn't that interested. But when I saw that they were traveling, I was really interested. That's how I got involved.
Aleah: What specifically about traveling to see jewelry interested you?
Sharon: Because I like to travel and because there are very few places you can learn about jewelry by traveling. You know yourself there are only a few places. I could name them on one hand. I don't even need one hand.
Aleah: How do you feel about the jewelry market in L.A.?
Sharon: The jewelry market in L.A. is one-sided, and that's why I like to travel. Art jewelry really started out in Sweden, in Scandinavian countries, in the Netherlands. Here you don't see art jewelry. Here, I think it's very blingy, shiny. It has to catch your attention, and that makes sense. But it's not the kind I like.
Aleah: Let's talk about the trips. About how many trips have you been on?
Sharon: About seven or eight.
Aleah: Do you remember the first trip that you took?
Sharon: Well, you just reminded me. Abroad or with them?
Aleah: Let’s start with abroad trips, and then even national trips that you’ve done in America with Art Jewelry Forum.
Sharon: Well, I think some of the most memorable trips—we went to some places I never thought we would be, like Estonia. The Netherlands is de rigueur, but Estonia, I was really surprised I was ever there. Where else did we go?
Aleah: Do you remember the trips to Germany for Schmuck?
Sharon: That's right. We took several trips to Germany because Schmuck is there. That's the name of it. Schmuck means jewelry in German, and it's the largest market for jewelry. Art jewelry is displayed there. People go one year, they skip a year, then they go another year, so that's where we went.
I came across a sweater. It was an art jeweler sweater, but it was a sweater I got there. I thought, “Gee, I forgot I had this.” That was a lot of fun. That's what I found with Art Jewelry Forum. If you travel a lot, you've seen things they’re showing.
Aleah: What inspired you to start the Jewelry Journey Podcast in 2019?
Sharon: I'd been thinking about it for a long time, and I thought, “What better time than the present?” I wasn't sure what I was going to do with it, but I thought, “Just start it and see where it takes you.”
Aleah: What were some of the key goals or motivations when you launched the podcast?
Sharon: I'm thinking about that. Just to study jewelry in more depth. That was one of my key goals. I like talking and thinking about jewelry. That was another key goal. It gave me an excuse to talk to a lot of the jewelers I knew who wouldn’t talk to me. They were friendly, but they wouldn't necessarily talk to me unless I was asking them questions.
Aleah: That's a really interesting answer. I hadn't thought about that as well. Sometimes when you're just talking to them, they're not that open. But when you get them into a podcast setting, they really do open up. You have really asked some interesting questions of people. Thank you for that answer. I’m really interested in that.
In the 220 plus episodes that you've done, what have been some of the most memorable or impactful stories that you've covered?
Sharon: I don't know if I have any that are so impactful, except one came from a jeweler. He said that the most important thing you have to remember when you're selling jewelry online is what the return policy is. I thought, “Well, he's really right.” I've never forgotten that. That's probably the only thing I haven't forgotten.
Aleah: That’s a very important thing not to forget!
Sharon: Yeah, but I think he's right. It was a good point.
Aleah: What are some of the most important trends or developments you've observed in the jewelry industry over the past four years?
Sharon: I would say, and I think a lot of people would agree with me, is probably the use of lab-grown diamonds becoming more accepted. They are a lot more accepted. Today I would look at them a second time in my jewelry. If somebody showed me a lab-grown diamond several years ago, I wasn't interested, but they've become a lot more acceptable in the past few years.
Aleah: Which episodes or topics have resonated the most with you and with your listeners? I think you've really been impacted by cataloging.
Sharon: Aleah, I think that’s a very good point in that I've spent the past—what I thought was going to be three weeks—six months working with somebody to catalog my jewelry. Aleah and I tried various means. We tried Excel, and we tried all these different ways that were supposed to help you catalog your jewelry. I think we settled on one called Collector Systems. I resisted because that has a subscription of about $1,000 a year, but it's the best one. The best one I could find, at least.
I do have to give credit to Mara, who helped me do it. She also helped Aleah do it. When she asked how long I thought it would take, I really thought it was going to take three weeks, but it took forever. I had more than I thought, and we try and keep it up to date.
Aleah: It's absolutely been a fun challenge.
Sharon: When I'm going to sleep at night, I think, “Oh, I have to tell Mara that I sold that, or I gave it away or I acquired this, so we keep it up to date.” I'm usually behind the ball when it comes to that.
Aleah: What have been some of the biggest challenges that you've faced in producing a weekly podcast about jewelry?
Sharon: I haven't been able to think that far ahead. We've talked about starting a newsletter. I've wanted to be a few weeks ahead so I could announce things in the newsletter, but I've never been able to get more than a couple weeks ahead of what's coming up to let the listener know and to let the person that I'm interviewing know. By the time I contact them and they get back to me, which sometimes could be several weeks and occasionally it's been several months, it takes a lot longer. The thing that takes the most time on any podcast is the amount of time it takes. It's always lovely to get answers right away, but it doesn't happen that often.
Aleah: Which guests or interviews stand out as being particularly insightful and eye-opening for you?
Sharon: I have to think about that. I partially answered that question. It was Jeff Russak at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers who told me what I needed to know about selling jewelry online. Besides that, Robert Lee Morris was a very interesting episode. There are a lot of episodes where I was told the person didn't have a lot to say, so they said they would stay within the half hour or 20 minutes or whatever, and an hour in I'd have to stop them because they were still going, and I hadn't said anything. They were very interesting, nonetheless.
Aleah: How do you go about finding and selecting the guests you feature on your show?
Sharon: Sometimes they come directly to me, which in the beginning really surprised me. Now they regularly come to me. If I read a name in the jewelry trades or in the newspaper, I'll circle it and pursue them. It's as simple as that. I may not know anything about them except that they're in the jewelry business, and I'll work on finding out more about them. I would say those are the two main ways. I think it's two main ways, they come to me, or I go after them.
Aleah: In your opinion, what are the most exciting or innovative areas of art and contemporary jewelry?
Sharon: I've recently learned that the Art Deco period was followed on the heels of Retro jewelry, and I like both periods. I like some art jewelry, but not all. There was a time when I liked all art jewelry, but I found that I really don't. I'm very particular about art jewelry. Contemporary jewelry is contemporary jewelry. If it's not one of those categories, I think it's contemporary jewelry.
Aleah: I think that answered part of my next question, because I was going to ask how has the podcast helped expand your knowledge and appreciation of jewelry? Obviously, there are so many things you learn by just talking to so many people.
Sharon: There's a lot I've learned and a lot you do learn. There's so much to learn.
Aleah: What advice would you give to someone looking to start their own specialty podcast?
Sharon: This isn't the first specialty podcast I've been involved in, but on any specialty podcast, any podcast in general, you have to be prepared, and you have to know that it takes time. I would say the thing that takes the most time is finding people and following up with them, booking the interview or whatever it is. It takes a lot of time. People don't think about that, and they don't work that into their story.
Aleah: What have been some of the most rewarding aspects of hosting a long-running jewelry podcast?
Sharon: That it's been long running. Long running is very exciting and rewarding. When people come to me and say, “I would really like to be on the Jewelry Journey,” or “I found the Jewelry Journey online,” I'm excited and rewarded by that.
Aleah: I always think it's fun when people recognize you, too. When we're out at shows, they're like, “Wait, you're Sharon. Don't you host that jewelry podcast?” And I'm always like, “Yes, she does.”
Sharon: Yes, once in a while they recognize me. I don't show my face on anything, but somehow people have recognized me. You play a big part because you've taped some. We've done some live, and I hope to do more in the future.
Aleah: Yeah, I think you're out there more than you think you are.
Sharon: It's probably true. Other things I'm proud of are the three times I've been in the press. The first time was in the Financial Times. Then two or three weeks later, people called me and said, “I saw you in the New York Times.” I was very surprised because one thing led to another, as it usually does in public relations. It turned out I was in the Financial Times, and I was in the New York Times. In November of 2023, the New York Times had a section called "Jewelry Podcasts Pick Up Some Glitter,” and it mentioned me and other podcasts. I am so honored to be included among them. They list six, usually.
The third time, the equivalent of GIA in the UK is called Gems&Jewellery, and I was in the autumn 2023 issue. It comes out four times a year, I think, or no more than six times a year. I was very impressed. They were doing a special on jewelry podcasts, and I was honored and excited to be included with them. I questioned, “Why are they asking me?” But they wrote their little blurb, and it was very nice. It was very exciting to have that memory, to cut it out, and to put it on my Instagram, which is @artsandjewelry, by the way. I would say those are the things that are exciting to me.
Aleah: How do you maintain creativity and come up with new angles to explore in each episode?
Sharon: Well, how do you maintain creativity is probably one of the key questions I have in my mind that I ask the jewelers. How does somebody who's been doing it for 20 years keep fresh and creative? I don't know, and I haven't found the formula for that. As I'm talking to somebody, a question usually comes up that I wouldn't have thought of beforehand, but as they're talking it prods something.
Aleah: The best way is really to put yourself out there and listen to their story. You just hear it, and you want to know more. It’s very organic for you.
Sharon: Exactly, exactly. Organic is a very good word for it.
Aleah: What role has social media played in growing and engaging your podcast audience?
Sharon: Social media plays a key role. I don't know how I would distribute it or how people would find me if it weren't for social media. I have to remember that most of the people I talk with are on the younger side and they know social media, but a lot of people I talk to are exactly like me. “Can you tell me how to find the email again?” I have to remember that I play to both audiences.
Aleah: Have you encountered any unique challenges in covering the jewelry industry, which is a very visual industry, through an audio format?
Sharon: I haven't encountered any issues because this is a visual medium. What I've encountered is when a jeweler doesn't want to talk about their process. I've encountered that several times. It feels like they're giving away their secret sauce. They're afraid of it.
Aleah: They're almost afraid to say too much. They think someone's going to replicate it. Sometimes when I'm listening, I'm like, “No, you have your own perspective. It's okay, tell us!”
Sharon: That's true. If there’s a unique challenge, that would be it, visual versus audio. I think the audio holds it up. I've broached that subject when I've asked people, “Do you think I should make the podcast visual also?” Usually I get a nay, that people like to listen to the podcast. They're like me. You listen to a podcast when you run or when you're doing something else.
Aleah: You've expanded by adding photos on your website and adding photos on social media. Even though it's an audio-only format for your podcast, if you want to find more, it's always beautiful that you bring the photos to the website so that listeners can see more.
Sharon: Aleah, you have said it better than I could have.
Aleah: Which guests have provided you the most surprising or unexpected insights?
Sharon: I don't know why, but there’s a name that sticks in my mind a lot, probably because he's unique. I was thinking about it this morning. His name is Isaac Levy. It was Yvel jewelry, and Yvel is Levy backwards. I was surprised that he even said he would be on a podcast, because he really is an important guy. I remember him was saying, “Sure, why not?” and the way he said it was like, gosh, I wish everybody was that easy to ask if they can be on my podcast. He was such a nice guy but such an important guy, and he didn't start that way. His wife started it, and then he entered and worked with her.
Aleah: I remember that too. She was the one who knew how to string pearls, and she taught him. They grew the brand together, the both of them.
Looking back, is there anything you would have done differently in the early days of launching the podcast?
Sharon: Now I'm a lot more comfortable. I do more prep than I used to, but I'm a lot more comfortable doing the podcast. When I listen and remember how it was in the beginning, I was very measured in the way I delivered. I read from a script. I don't have to do that anymore. I would just tell people to start by being themselves.
Aleah: That's great advice. Do you have anything you'd like to ask of the jewelry world and of your listeners?
Sharon: Of the jewelry world, I'd like to ask if they have something they'd particularly like to listen to or a subject they're interested in. I’d like them to let me know so I can look at how I can do that.
Aleah: Is there anything I haven't asked that you've been thinking about, or that you want me to ask?
Sharon: No, I think you've covered everything in a lot more depth than I expected it to be covered.
Aleah: Thank you so much, Sharon.
Sharon: Thank you, Aleah.
Aleah: Before my dad, Jonathan, comes back to say a few final words, I wanted to take a moment to acknowledge that this is not the way we wanted to end this podcast, but since this was the end of Sharon's jewelry journey, and because she left an exquisite mark on the jewelry industry, we feel like this is the right way to leave a tribute to her. Her life was as beautiful as any piece of art or jewelry, and I'm going to continue to bring you stories, memories, photos and more from her jewelry journey. I would love to hear stories from you as well. In a moment, my father is going to tell you how you can share those.
Before I finish, I just want to take a moment to thank Olivia Consol. She has also been an editor on this podcast since the beginning and has done tremendous work. Olivia, thank you so much. It's always a joy to work with you.
Finally, thank you, Jewelry Journey listeners, friends and family. And now back to my dad, Jonathan.
Jonathan: That was Sharon's jewelry journey, and I'm really glad that you listened all the way to the end of it. I hope that you gained a better insight into my bride of 32 years, who was on her jewelry journey even before I met her, and how much pleasure she got sharing the stories of up-and-coming makers, the interesting people she met along the way, the wonderful trips she took with the organizations she belonged to, and just how much this jewelry journey fed her inner being.
We’ll be linking to various articles about Sharon and items of interest that will help to round out her experience, her jewelry journey, the organizations that she enjoyed, some articles about Sharon's collecting, and things we think would be interesting to you, including photographs that show you a portion of her jewelry journey collection. I hope you find them interesting. I certainly have.
I'd be very grateful if you would take a couple of minutes to leave your reviews of this podcast and your thoughts about Sharon, including anything you think would be interesting to share with us, her family, and with the larger community. I'll thank you for that in advance.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jennifer Merchant:
Jennifer Merchant is a studio t based in Minneapolis, MN. She graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from the Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time artist showcasing her work in galleries, museums and exhibitions. Her work has been published in several national magazines such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine.
Merchant is best known for her innovative layered acrylic process in which images and prints are layered between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers, appearing transparent from one angle of view while showcasing bold patterns and colors from another.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional resources:
Transcript:
Like the op and pop art that inspires it, Jennifer Merchant’s jewelry challenges your eye. Clear from some angles and bold and colorful from others, the jewelry is created by layering acrylic with images from art books. Jennifer joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her technique; how she chooses the images in her jewelry; and why art jewelers need to work together to push the discipline forward. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Jennifer Merchant. Jennifer was also a guest several years ago. She thought she would be a metalsmith but segued to acrylic jewelry, which is what she has become known for: creative and innovative acrylic jewelry such as necklaces, bracelets, earrings and brooches. They have eye-catching graphics embedded in them. I was also surprised to learn that hand carving is sometimes involved. Welcome back.
When you left college, did you know you were going to have your own business?
Jennifer: Not right away. I think it took me about five years to really get the confidence together to start my own business. I definitely spent that first five years after graduation very lost and not really sure what in the heck I was going to do with my jewelry degree, especially because I went to school in Savannah, Georgia. That's where I made all my art connections and jewelry connections. Moving back to Minneapolis, I was off on my own. I didn't have a community at that point. It definitely was a number of years of wondering, “How am I going to end up using this degree that cost me so much money?”
I had been waiting tables and was increasingly unhappy because I knew I had something different to offer the world. I ended up getting fired from a job. I had been speaking with a friend at work who had another friend that was putting on an art show. She had told me about it because she knew I was an artist. I remember getting fired from the job and calling her up right away, like, “I think I want to do that art show because I need to try to make some money.” It went okay, and it inspired me to say, “Jewelry is something you can do and make a living with. Let's give this a shot.”
I had to move back home with my mom for a couple of years and cut my expenses way down, because I wasn't going to take out another loan to start a business. I built it very small, very scrappy. I had a second bedroom in my mom's house where I had my workshop, and I started from there doing little local events. That's where it all started.
Sharon: Wow. What's the biggest piece of advice you can give to somebody who's just starting out?
Jennifer: I would say when you're just starting out, really try to find your voice.
Sharon: What do you do? What does one do when they find their voice? For instance, some people have found the voice, but they're homemakers or they work in an office. What do you do when you find your voice?
Jennifer: I think once you know what you want to say, the next step is finding out who wants to hear it. And that is a very hard step, finding your niche and finding your people that resonate with your voice. I think the only way to really do that is to get yourself out there, get your work out there.
I think with the Internet now and how accessible online stuff is, it might be a little easier to get yourself out there through social media, through the Internet, than maybe it was years ago when you had to have a physical presence out in the world. People can start by getting their work out there online and hopefully seeing who is interested, who connects with it, and then finding places in the real, outside world to continue that process and eventually find your market.
Sharon: Do you have people who come to you with the image they want to include already?
Jennifer: Not very often. I've had people ask me about that, but I think ultimately, I have to be drawn to the image specifically in order to be able to incorporate it in a piece. I did have a client that had a specific art piece she wanted in a bracelet for her daughter. That I was able to do because I resonated with the work and it was something that worked well within the form of jewelry.
I've also had requests where someone wants family mementos or something encased in the acrylic. That's a very cool, sentimental thing, but visually, it doesn't really work with my aesthetic as well. I'm not going to do something just because I get asked for it. I also have to be drawn to it enough in order to go through with it, because it is a labor-intensive process and it is an art of passion. If I'm not super excited about the thing I'm making, it's probably not going to turn out that great either.
I have tried to do things early on in my career specifically for a client that just didn't quite work out. We weren't on the same page. I think as you get more into it, you figure out the types of things you can push the boundaries on and the types of things that you can't. When someone's request is something that you can do and make them happy with, and when it's just not something that'll work out, you know.
Sharon: That's interesting. So if somebody brought you their wedding photo, it depends on whether you like the wedding dress or something like that.
Jennifer: Or if it has enough visual interest. I think the thing that makes my work successful is the images that I do use are interesting within a small scale of jewelry, and not all images can do that. I work with a lot of op art and pop art, and there's a lot of visual interest going on in a small space. With a photograph or something more sentimental, that's not always the case. It just wouldn't look as cool as they think it's going to.
Sharon: I've seen comic books used in your work. How did you come to that?
Jennifer: All of the things in my work that look like comic books are actually Roy Lichtenstein pieces. His pop art was inspired by comics, and he reimagined them into huge canvases and paintings. My jewelry does something similar, where I take Roy Lichtenstein's work and images and collect tons of books and rip out those pages and put that in my jewelry. It feels kind of meta. I've actually met some of his descendants and collectors and friends over the years, and a lot of them assure me that he would really appreciate what I'm doing with his work. It's a very similar idea as to how he repurposed art and things that he saw into something new and different.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I didn't know that. Did you study art history in college as you were studying jewelry and metal and all that?
Jennifer: Yeah, art history is definitely part of your Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. It wasn't always my favorite class because the art history classes were about art that was ancient and a lot of religious art and that sort of thing. I think I had one class where it was modern art in the 20th century, which, of course, is the most interesting to me.
But that art history background definitely sparked some interest in different art movements and art periods. Art Deco is a very favorite design motif of mine. As I was talking about earlier, I'm very inspired by pop art and op art. I think art history plays a huge role. I never thought at the time when I was in school that I would end up studying more about art history and specific artists and doing that kind of research, but it is really important to my work now.
Sharon: Can you explain what the difference between pop art and op art is?
Jennifer: Sure. With pop art, everyone knows Roy Lichtenstein and Warhol. They took popular things or everyday objects like a soup can and made them stylized and put them in the context of fine art as this kind of ridiculous thing. Op art deals with optical properties. A lot of op art is very linear. It kind of tricks your eye. It looks like it's moving, but it's a static image.
Funny enough, when I started working with op art, I was actually collecting those optical illusions books for kids. There'd be very few usable images in there, but there'd be a few black and white, scintillating-looking, squiggly-lined spirals or something like that. That sparked my interest in optical art and looking it up outside of the context of those silly books for kids. I found out this is a whole art movement, and there are artists like Richard Anuszkiewicz and Victor Vasarely and Bridget Riley that pioneered this in the 60s, when it really became a thing. I just find it so fascinating. But it's kind of funny that my two art movements that I use a lot in my work are pop and op. Like, who knew?
Sharon: Do you ever use any other kind besides those? You say you like Art Deco. I don't know what you’d use for an image, but I guess you could use an Art Deco image.
Jennifer: I think with Art Deco I am more inspired by the overall forms of pieces or the shapes. I like the ideas. I like the repetitive nature of Art Deco. They went from Art Nouveau, where it was all crazy and ornate, and then Art Deco kind of simplified things. It was a little more streamlined. I really like that. I think I carry those design principles through my work, not as much the direct visuals. Although if I could find great books with Art Deco prints of patterns or wallpapers or whatever, I’d love to use those. I just haven't quite found the right image sources yet for that.
Finding pop art and op art books has been pretty easy for me, and the images are just so striking, so that's why I’ve gravitated towards those. I'm open to other types of art and other artists. I just haven't moved on yet from the things I am working on. I can only focus on so many things at a time, but I could see myself doing some collections using Rothko paintings or Gerhard Richter with those interesting images, Jackson Pollock with the splashes. Those kinds of things I could see being very interesting within the context of layered acrylic. It just depends on where my book collection takes me.
Sharon: So, if we're looking at used books at a used bookstore, we should keep our eyes open for interesting things that could be used as interesting prints.
Jennifer: Yeah. I actually buy so many of my books online because physical shops only have so many things, and what I'm looking for is so specific. The art sections are usually kind of small, so I've ended up finding a lot of online retailers. I've gotten pretty good at being able to figure out whether a book is going to be visually interesting based on the online listing. I will even look at the size of the book, if they list dimensions, to give me ideas. If it seems like a good coffee table art book with lots of pictures, that's what I'm trying to find. Something with lots of great images.
Sharon: It sounds like people would be very interested in your leftovers.
Jennifer: I have a whole shelf of these books that are like little skeletons. You can see the sections where I've really gone to town ripping pages out, and then other sections that are left. There's plenty of things I leave in the book that I think are amazing, but they just aren't going to work for jewelry. Yeah, I've got a lot of skeleton books on my shelf. I keep them. I can't get rid of them.
Sharon: I like that, skeleton books. Once again, it’s a Herculean task, the whole thing of starting your own business. Would you say that there is somebody that inspired you and keeps inspiring you?
Jennifer: I wouldn't say it's a specific person. I think after that initial, tiny show that I did trying to sell my work, I think the most inspiring thing was seeing the other artists and seeing people that were making a living doing their work. I think that's what's really inspiring to me, finally meeting other people that were already doing what I wanted to do and realizing, “Wow, this is a viable career path.”
There's not a lot of artists in my family, so no one really had any advice to give me back in the day. They weren't necessarily unsupportive, but they didn't really know how to encourage my art, either. It's been very helpful getting out there and seeing people that are doing things and just being inspired. Different artists and different people inspire me for very different reasons. Some artists, their work is the thing that inspires you, and other artists have such a great work ethic or a really creative way of marketing. I try to keep my eyes and ears open all the time, and I let inspirations muddle around in my brain. And then one day some other thing will trigger an idea. You just never know. I try to always be open.
Sharon: I'm surprised; I usually see you at shows where there are a lot of other art jewelers, which is what I categorize you as. I see art jewelers, makers a lot. I'm thinking of New York City Jewelry Week, which is where I saw you once or twice. The last time I saw you, I wasn't able to say hello. I would think you'd be more—well, maybe it's the way I am, but I'd be more envious or competitive seeing all the other art jewelers, as opposed to finding inspiration.
Jennifer: I don't know. I don't think of it as a competition in any way. I think it helps me a lot because my work is so different from everyone else's, so there isn't a super direct comparison. I think maybe for some other types of jewelers it might be a little different because there is more of a direct comparison with their aesthetic or their materials. In that respect, there isn't really competition.
I used to be a lot more of a competitive person, but as I've gotten older and been in the business long enough and met all different artists, you just see that it's so much more about passion and drive. You can be successful doing just about anything if you're willing to put the work in.
I’ve met so many different people with so many different types of jewelry and art, and they're successful in radically different ways. Even if some other artist is successful in a way that will never work for me, I still love learning about what they're doing. Even if it doesn't directly apply to me, there's something in that lesson, in listening to them and their story that might click something for me in an indirect manner. So, I really do try to be open and inspired by everyone, and I definitely don't see it as competition.
I think it's great seeing more and more art jewelers getting work out there, making things that are big and bold and wild and weird materials. The more of it that's out there, the better for all of us, because then the consumer or the client is seeing more of it out in the world. Then when they come across my work, it might not seem as weird or as off putting. They might get it a little bit faster and a little bit easier because of all the other people that came before me and all the people that are alongside me. I think working together as a community, being inspired by each other, helping each other be successful, that can only help all of us.
Sharon: Do you think when people first see your art, they don't think of it as jewelry because it doesn't have diamonds or emeralds? Do they think of it as a throw away, in a way?
Jennifer: Oh, yeah. I've had the gamut of reactions to my work, and it really depends on the setting it’s in as well as how people respond to it. There are definitely people out there that, to them, jewelry is diamonds and gold, and that's fine. I might not be able to change their mind. Other people see the work and, right away, think it looks cool. Maybe they didn't even know it was a bracelet, but they were drawn to it. Then when they find out it's an actual wearable piece, they're even more blown away. You never know what kind of reaction you're going to get from people.
I've definitely had to do a lot of educating on my process and the materials because when someone sees a plastic necklace that costs $2,000, they kind of scratch their heads, like, “What is going on here?” And then I tell them all about the process and all the different steps and all the different things that went into it. Sometimes you win people over, and sometimes they're like, “Why bother?” I just try to pay more attention to the people that are won over and interested. If they're not, that's fine. I know my work is not for everyone, and I'm okay with that.
Sharon: That’s an interesting philosophy. You’ve given me a different perspective as well on your jewelry. Thank you for being here today, Jennifer.
Jennifer: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jennifer Merchant:
Jennifer Merchant is a studio t based in Minneapolis, MN. She graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from the Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time artist showcasing her work in galleries, museums and exhibitions. Her work has been published in several national magazines such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine.
Merchant is best known for her innovative layered acrylic process in which images and prints are layered between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers, appearing transparent from one angle of view while showcasing bold patterns and colors from another.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional resources:
Transcript:
Like the op and pop art that inspires it, Jennifer Merchant’s jewelry challenges your eye. Clear from some angles and bold and colorful from others, the jewelry is created by layering acrylic with images from art books. Jennifer joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her technique; how she chooses the images in her jewelry; and why art jewelers need to work together to push the discipline forward. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.
Today, my guest is Jennifer Merchant. Jennifer was also a guest several years ago. She thought she would be a metalsmith but segued to acrylic jewelry, which is what she has become known for: creative and innovative acrylic jewelry such as necklaces, bracelets, earrings and brooches. They have eye-catching graphics embedded in them. I was also surprised to learn that hand carving is sometimes involved.
Jennifer exhibits all over the country. She's been an active member of SNAG, the Society of North American Goldsmiths. She is also a member of other major jewelry organizations. Jennifer is going to tell us all about why she has chosen this route and her process in general. Jennifer, welcome to the program.
Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon.
Sharon: I'm glad to have you. Why did you start working with acrylics?
Jennifer: I actually started working with acrylic while I was still in college at the Savannah College of Art and Design studying metalsmithing and jewelry. Our professor gave us little chunks of acrylic one day, probably with the thought of using it for die forms. But I decided, “Hey, you can cut and sculpt this very similarly to working with waxes for lost wax casting.” I liked the immediacy of the acrylic, that once you carved it and sculpted it and polished it, it was a finished piece. It had a lot of really cool optical properties. So, I always kept it on the back burner as an interesting material.
Then when I graduated from college and I moved back to my hometown of Minneapolis, I didn't have the tools and equipment to keep working with metal. So, I kind of fell into, “Hey, there was that acrylic I worked with a couple of times in school. It was very interesting. Let's see what we can do with that,” because it was cheap, and I could cut it with simple tools. I started experimenting with it from there.
Sharon: And you make all sorts of jewelry with it. Do you know when you start out that you'll be making a necklace or a bracelet with the pieces you have, or do they talk to you as you put them together?
Jennifer: I make pieces both ways. Sometimes I'll design a piece very specifically and have an idea and a picture in my mind of what I'm making. But then there's other times, especially when I'm working with the scraps that are left over from pieces that I've made in the past. A lot of those scraps are still very interesting, and they'll be in weird shapes. Those will speak to me, and I'll create something new and different with some of those. I kind of work both ways.
Sharon: I know you're in a lot of stores and galleries. Do stores tell you what to do, or do you just say, “Here it is, do you like it”?
Jennifer: I'm more of a, “Here's what I've been making. Let me know which ones you like.” I think sometimes it's important to follow your own inspirations. People tend to be drawn to the things that I'm most excited to make.
That being said, some galleries have different clientele bases with different price points, so they’ll tell me, “Hey, these pieces were working really well.” I'll take some feedback. But ultimately, I focus on making the things that I'm drawn to.
Sharon: Do you have a studio inside your home or do you have a place that you go?
Jennifer: For years I did have a studio outside of my home that I really loved, but a few years ago my husband and I bought a home, and I decided to move my jewelry practice into my home. So, now I work from home. But who knows, maybe in the future I'll expand a little bit and have another space in addition outside the home. It can be kind of a challenge working at home sometimes, but I've done both. I like working both ways, so we'll see what the future has for me.
Sharon: Do you have assistants who work with you?
Jennifer: I've had assistants in the past. I don't anymore. I scaled my business way back during COVID and took a breather to reevaluate what I'm doing and where my motivations are. I'm only just beginning to build it back. At this point, I don't work with anyone, but hopefully in the future I can find someone to help out with some of the production.
It's a little challenging to find an assistant because my process is very unique. It's not something that people know how to do, so there's a lot of training involved. When I do work with people, it takes quite a while to get somebody that can help finish pieces to the quality standards that my galleries and clients expect.
Sharon: When you were reevaluating things, what did you decide? Did your method change during COVID?
Jennifer: I think things just slowed way down during COVID. 2020, honestly, it was going to be my year. I had a couple of really big events planned, one of which I got to do because it was in February, but the rest all moved online. There was such a lull in events and things to participate in. I had started questioning what my motivations are, because you really have to love what you're doing in order to be an artist as a profession. We had bought a house and were settling in. I've just been taking the last few years to figure out life so I can bring my A-game to my business again.
Sharon: Did you stop production because you were doing it yourself during COVID?
Jennifer: I did slow way down on production. If I had a client that was interested in something, or if I had an online event or that kind of thing, that would motivate me to produce some new pieces. But there were just fewer things going on to spark that creation.
I have a harder time making things just because. I like to have an outside influence, like a show that's coming up or events that are going to happen and people are going to see my pieces. When I don't know when those things are going on, I have a little bit of a harder time. I think that is why during COVID, everything slowed down for me especially.
But it also gave me a lot of time to think about what I want out of my business and where I want to go. And in May, I'll be launching my first web shop where you can actually buy my pieces directly from me.
Sharon: Wow. I know that's a Herculean task.
Jennifer: For me personally, the web shop is an extra big step because all of my pieces, even my production work, is one of a kind because of the images I'm using within my jewelry. They're all found images from art books and other sources. So, even if it's the same shape, like the marquee hoop earring, no two are going to be the exact same. So, every time I list a piece online for sale, I have to photograph each and every single one of them.
It's taken a long time to get some of those things down where I could do it quickly enough and efficiently enough to be able to post all of these pieces with the right listings. It's a lot more work than having a design where you can put a picture of it and sell 25 of them. It's been a daunting thing to tackle.
Sharon: Did you have to wait until you were efficient at photographing and making them so you could just churn them out?
Jennifer: My work is very difficult to photograph because it is clear and transparent from some angles, and then it's bright and colorful from others. It's also very reflective. So, trying to photograph it cleanly and communicate the piece in a single image is very difficult. My work tends to resonate more from multiple angles. It has taken years to figure out the best way to represent these pieces in an image or two.
Sharon: The online shop, do you think it's your most valuable social media outlet? Is there one? What do you think that is?
Jennifer: For me, I'm not huge on social media. Instagram, I think, is the most fun. It's very image forward, which is something I really enjoy. Definitely, as I launch my website, I will be on social media a lot more to market. I think up until now I've mostly worked with galleries and shops or done specific events, so I haven't cultivated my online audience as much. I'm excited to explore that new chapter and get more into it and see what I can do from my home. That way in the future, when something happens where in-person events may not be happening as much, I can still have a connection to my audience.
I've been getting asked for years, “Where can I find your pieces?” Because everything is one of a kind, if it's at a gallery in California, someone in Georgia is going to have a hard time getting their hands on it. I think it'll be really nice having my own shop so that people can have one destination to go, as well as all of the others, to be able to have that access.
Sharon: How did you start getting galleries and stores interested in you?
Jennifer: I have been contacted by most of the places that I work with. Earlier in my career, I did a lot more events and shows and I was able to meet gallery owners. Also, early on in my career, I met some of the people that work for the American Craft Council, which is based in Minneapolis. When they saw a local Minneapolis artist at a show in Chicago and met me and thought my work was cool, they were like, “You're in our city. Let's invite her to some events.” They really took me under their wing and wrote about my work and got me out there. I got a lot of contacts just from people seeing the articles that they had posted.
For me, it's been a lot of just doing what I do, and because my work is so unique and different, people that it resonates with will remember and contact me, like, “Hey, we've never seen anything like this. Let's try it out at our gallery.” I've been very fortunate in that way, where I haven't really had to go out on my own, cold calling and trying to get appointments and that sort of thing. I just try to make really interesting work, get it out there as much as I can, and then hope that it snowballs from there. So far, that's been working for me.
Sharon: Wow. I think it's great that you didn't have to cold call and that people were interested in your stuff, which is very unusual. I don't know anybody who does anything like that. So, you’re very lucky.
Jennifer: I'm very lucky that it worked out for me because I can be a little socially awkward with the cold calling and things like that. That was never my favorite part of the business. I am fortunate that my work speaks for itself. It's kind of a love it or hate it thing, which can be its own challenge, but it's definitely unique enough where when people see it, if they're interested, they will hunt me down and ask me about it. That's been very nice.
Sharon: If an outlet wants more than one, maybe they want five bracelets, do you tell them right away that you can make the five bracelets, but they’ll all have different graphics?
Jennifer: Yeah. I did a couple wholesale shows a while ago where it was that challenge of, “Well, here's a design, but they're all going to be different, and you're not really going to know until you get them.” I think most people that are interested in my work like that one-of-a-kind nature of it. That's part of the interest, so they trust me. If they get pieces that maybe that imagery doesn't speak to them or their clientele, we'll talk about it and I can swap it out, get them some prints and patterns that they like better. It's kind of a back-and-forth process. And the longer I work with a gallery or a person, the more I get to know what works there. Then I can tailor my offerings to them for what works.
Sharon: Where do you find your images and the pictures that you put in your jewelry?
Jennifer: When I first started, I was using magazines because they were readily available, fairly inexpensive, and that's how I started this whole process of layered acrylic. But the paper in those is not very good quality and the pictures fade. It's also a challenge to find enough usable content.
So, then I started purchasing art books. I would become interested in a specific artist and start collecting books about their work, and those books always had a lot of really amazing images. They're printed on really nice paper with good quality inks, and they're much more successful layering than magazines. Now I exclusively use books. I've become somewhat of a rare and vintage book collector. It's a really fun part of my job, hunting down these different books, figuring out artists that inspire me to start collecting things about their work and then finding really cool images.
If there's a particular book that has a lot of really great images that I like, I will start looking for other copies of it. There are certain books about Roy Lichtenstein's work. There’s one about posters that has a catalog in the back with all these smaller thumbnail images, and they're so great for making earrings, things like that. I must've bought that book like 10 times. So, that's where I get my images. It's all purchased materials like books that I then rip up and cut up and put in between the acrylic.
Sharon: Well, you answered the question. I was going to ask you if you cut the books up or what you do. You also mentioned that magazines got you going with layered acrylic. Can you tell us about that?
Jennifer: When I was younger, I subscribed to all kinds of fashion magazines and fun things, and I would keep them after reading them. I had shelves and shelves of magazines. When I first started working with acrylic, I had this idea that acrylic has pretty cool visual properties, optical properties, and when you put images underneath it, it looks so interesting. That's when I started going through my fashion magazines, lots of issues of Vogue. I would see cool prints on dresses and things like that, and I would rip those pages out and try to fit the prints and things that were in there within my jewelry designs. That's how I got started with the whole thing. It was just cheap materials I already had.
Sharon: What are your sales policies? Do you accept returns? If I'm a client and you give me something and I say, “No, that's not what I want,” do you accept returns? What do you do?
Jennifer: Yeah, I do accept returns. I think it depends. If it's a piece that already existed and they buy it and it just didn't work out, or it doesn't fit quite right or it wasn't what they were expecting, absolutely. It becomes a little more of a gray area when it's a custom piece, when someone wants specific imagery and this and that. That tends to be a little more delicate. That being said, I want people to keep my jewelry because they love it, not because they're trapped. So, even a custom order, if it doesn't come out quite as they were expecting, I try to work with people to either make it right or try something new.
Some of the events that I do, it's a museum show where they're handling the sales and they're getting a commission, I'm getting a commission from the sale. Even though I'm selling to the customer directly, because it goes through the museum, usually it's an all-sales-are-final type situation, just because of the nature of the commissions and if they've already paid me and then the person changes their mind. It depends on the venue through which I'm selling the work.
I would say most times, yes, returns are acceptable within a certain time frame, but there are certain instances where they are final sale. But even in that situation—I had a client come a couple of years later to a show, and she had this ring. I decided, “You know what? It's a really cool ring. Let's swap it out.” She wanted a pendant. I like to be a little flexible. Like I said, I want people to have my jewelry because they love it, not because they're forced to keep it.
Sharon: I'm curious; in your studio, do you have pets that keep you company?
Jennifer: I do. I've got a dog and a cat. My cat, Shackleton, likes to work with me. I have two workspaces in my home. Downstairs is the shop, the studio, and then upstairs I have an office where I do the bonding and the image gathering and looking through layouts. The cat, Shackleton, likes to hang out upstairs in the office and sit on all my papers and be in the way, but be very cute. Then my dog, her name's Sophia. She tends to stay out of the studio because it's loud and dusty. She'll come in the office and hang out, too, sometimes. But I don't know. She kind of does her own thing. She lets me work.
Sharon: Well, it sounds like nice company. Do you make more than one piece at a time? All the pieces and extras, let's say, do you put them in a closet and then pull them out if somebody wants them? What do you do?
Jennifer: I definitely always have some inventory on hand. I think as far as when I'm making pieces, as I was saying earlier, I tend to make when I have an event or I'm preparing for something coming up. Then I'll usually go above and beyond and make extra just to have. Also, because my pieces are one of a kind and the imagery is different on each earring, each ring, each bracelet, I will make more than I know I'm going to need or sell at a specific time, mostly to have options for my clients, because all the pieces are different and have different images. You never know what someone's going to be drawn to.
It's especially difficult with things that have a size, like a ring or a bracelet. Then I make tons of them because you have to have lots of options. With those kinds of things, I'll take a lot more custom orders because someone will see something in person that they love, but it's not their size. I do my best to recreate things for people. I don't generally remake things with the exact same images because usually it's impossible, but I will do my best to get something with a similar aesthetic or feeling for people.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gabriela Sierra
Gaby, designer and creator of Gabriela Sierra jewelry, is anything but a minimalist. Unafraid of color, she plays with bold shapes, textures and asymmetry. Her meticulously crafted pieces are meant to be conversation starters.
With a background in Industrial Design followed by a variety of courses at Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School, Gabriela Sierra merges design and fashion to create unique sculptural jewelry. The brand seeks to reflect the spirit of the slowmade process (quality over quantity). Founded in 2021, Gabriela Sierra is committed to good design by focusing on quality materials and the revaluation of craftsmanship.
Her work has been shown at different worldwide exhibitions:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Expertly combining bold colors and shapes in her jewelry, it’s clear that Gabriela Sierra has an eye for design. Beginning her career in furniture and packaging design, Gabriela made her lifelong dream of becoming a jewelry maker come true in 2021, when she opened Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her upbringing in Mexico and her current home in Montreal influence her work; why her business follows “slow made” principles; and how she became more confident about calling herself a jewelry designer. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, I'm talking with Gabriela Sierra of Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. Welcome back.
So, everything might not be handcrafted, but you have chosen those individual stones to go together or the kind of stone to work with. For instance, will you choose a faceted stone to work with? Could you have a combination of a faceted stone with a cabochon with a smooth curve?
Gabriela: Yes. I already have some designs before combining these different types of cuts. Yes, for sure. I'm not like, “I'm just going to work with cabochon and that's it.” No. I think t I'm open to work with different kinds of cuts. I like to work with cuts that are not the traditional ones. I just create new cuts and new cuts, and then as I mentioned, I make an order with my suppliers to have a sample to see if it really works, because in my mind everything works perfectly. I need to see the real thing physically, here with me in my hands, to see if everything is okay.
Sharon: Do you go to the Tucson Show in Arizona to choose stones?
Gabriela: No, I haven’t had a chance to go. I see the videos and I see that all the jewelers I follow go there. I do wish to go there, but I just recently received my American visa. That was one of the reasons why I didn't go to the Tucson Show. But I would love to have the opportunity to go. Maybe next year. For sure, I want to go. Next year it's easier.
Here in Montreal there's also a gem show, a smaller version. It was last year. I think it's here every year. I went there last year, and it was very good. Of course, to a new person it's just huge. There are a lot of suppliers from everywhere, from every part of the world, so I really wanted to go.
Sharon: How do you decide if it's a good quality stone versus one that's not as good? Is it just by eye, or do you look through a loupe?
Gabriela: I don't have a lot of knowledge. I’m not trained to really recognize if a stone is a very good quality stone. I think I just need to love the stone and see that it’s without any breakage, it's not with a hole or some kind of damage. I need to love the stone, and it needs to be a good cut in my opinion. I'm not an expert gemologist, so I cannot tell if it's perfectly cut. I just need to see the stone and if it's love at first sight. If I love the stone, it's perfect.
Sharon: Does it have to fit a certain bezel or do you make the bezel to fit the stone? Most of your gems seem to be bezel set.
Gabriela: At the beginning, when I first chose the stones and then designed, yes, I based my design on the gemstone. I created the bezel around it. But after that, when I had a clear concept, I designed first and then chose the stone. When I order the stones, they need to be the size that I need because I cannot change the design. But yes, basically all my gemstones are with a bezel.
Sharon: Do you have a studio outside your home, or a place inside your apartment or home where you design your jewelry?
Gabriela: In Mexico, my studio is in my house in Querétaro. Querétaro is the city where I live. It's in my house. The first floor is all my studio. Now Samantha is working there. But now here in Montréal, last year, last October, I found a place that rents a space for jewelers. I'm a resident there and I work from there. I have all the necessary things because it's an atelier. The atelier is called Artéfact. A lot of jewelers from Montreal rent their space and work there to create their pieces.
Sharon: Can you go any time, or do you have to sign up for certain times?
Gabriela: No, because I'm a resident, I can go if I want to go. During the night I can go. Any time I want. They give classes there also, but it doesn't matter if they are giving classes. I can go whenever I want.
In Montreal it’s a little bit different. It's difficult to have a studio in your house or apartment. You need a permit because you’re working with gas, with fire, with chemicals. It’s different. In Mexico we don't need permits to have a gas tank in our house. Here it’s a little bit different.
Sharon: Do you ever get nervous working with fire and chemicals? Does that make you nervous?
Gabriela: At the beginning, yes. Yes, of course. Because you’re working with gas, if you're not careful enough, there could be an accident. Also, because my studio is in my house, I was worried at the beginning that I needed to be very careful because this is my house. My husband lives here. My stuff is here. So, yeah, I need to be careful. I was nervous at the beginning because I was working with fire. But you just need to follow the steps. That's it. If you work carefully and follow the precautions, you are good.
Sharon: And you have a pet. Do they keep you company in the studio? Where do they keep you company?
Gabriela: Yes, I have a dog. Her name is Jude Right now, she is in Mexico, but I will bring her here very soon because I miss her so much. She was the one reminding me every day, “Hey, Gabi, it's time to go home. I'm hungry. Let's go home.” Home for her was the second floor of our house. I miss her so much. It's more than love for me and for my husband.
Sharon: Does she comfort you? If you're having a bad day with the stones, do you get comfort from her?
Gabriela: Yes. I don't know what dogs have, but they know if you are feeling bad or you are sad or you are happy. They just know. She approaches every time I feel bad or sad, or I break a bezel or I break a gemstone. She knows. Also because I scream a lot and I'm saying bad words.
Sharon: I want to talk to you a little bit about starting the business, deciding to start the business and keeping it going. You're newer in your making journey than some of the people I've talked to on the podcast. What made you decide that it was time to leave?
Gabriela: Well, COVID hit, and I think for many people, it was a time to reflect, and I reflected and reevaluated my path. That was the moment that I decided to quit my job as a packaging specialist. It was hard. A lot of people called me crazy because it was a very difficult time, but I was so sure. I don't know what COVID had at that particular time but it gave me a signal or something that I wasn't in the right place. That particular time was hard, but it gave me the strength to start my jewelry business and start to set up my studio.
During COVID, I took some classes to refresh the techniques that I had learned years before at Alchimia to start making jewelry. I learned a lot of techniques, but the years passed, and I needed a refresh. But it was hard. I’m not going to lie; it was really hard. Because I was new, I was scared. I was afraid of failure. In my mind, I was thinking, “Who is going to buy my jewelry? Who is going to like my jewelry? How will I pay all my bills.?” All those questions started to appear in my mind.
You asked me a question about how I introduce myself, and I told you that I felt comfortable to say I was a jewelry maker a year ago. I had a lot of insecurity. I wasn't sure that I was a jewelry maker because I wasn't prepared in a jewelry school. I didn't have the proper school, I didn't have a proper education for being a jeweler. It was tough at the beginning, but then my work started to get noticed, to get exposed, and I had the opportunity to be in different exhibitions. I think the trust grew from there, and I feel more and more comfortable calling myself a jewelry maker now.
Sharon: What is your distribution? How do people hear about you? Do people place orders at shows, or do you exhibit all over the world?
Gabriela: Mainly my clients buy the pieces from my webpage. I also have my pieces in some stores in Mexico City. Right now, I have some of my pieces in Vancouver in a gallery. For exhibitions, they could have been bought during the exhibitions, but the exhibition is just for a couple of days, and those exhibitions were one or two years ago. The other one was two years ago. The last one is actually right now. It's Earrings Galore. The last place this exhibition was in was Mexico City, actually. Before that, Earrings Galore was in New York City at New York City Jewelry Week.
Sharon: You exhibited there. Do you have to go into galleries? Are you a salesperson? Are you the salesperson, or do you put the jewelry out and people can decide what they're doing?
Gabriela: Well, I'm the one who gets all the customers’ messages and everything, but in the exhibitions, I cannot go to every single one of them, so I just send the pieces and there’s a person there in charge of showing the pieces and selling the pieces.
Sharon: Do you ever have to go to galleries and sell your stuff? You mentioned these stores in Mexico City that have your things. Did you have to show it yourself? Did they see your pieces and like them beforehand without knowing you? How did it work?
Gabriela: For example, that one in Mexico City, I couldn't be there because I was here in Montreal. So, they could go to the exhibition and see my pieces there and try them on, see if they like them or not, but I couldn't be there. I wish I could have, but I couldn't. I want to go and attend different expositions or craft fairs. I want to start doing those, probably next year or at the end of this year.
Sharon: Who buys your jewelry? Who buys your earrings? Do men buy them for women? Do women buy them for themselves?
Gabriela: My main customers are from the U.S., actually. And most of my customers, the majority are women. A few of them are men. Actually, they are the ones who message me first through my Instagram account and ask me, “My wife really likes these earrings. She's showing me these earrings, but I don't know if she is going to wear them. Can you tell me if they are too big or too heavy? Can you show me pictures or a video wearing them?” Sometimes I can do that because if you message me through my Instagram account, I'm the one who answers every single message. Maybe I can take a little bit long to answer back, but for sure you will get an answer.
Sharon: You mentioned COVID. Did that affect taking classes? Were you doing it through Zoom? Did it affect your business? How did you do it?
Gabriela: During COVID, yeah. Mexico had a lot of restrictions, but during COVID, I went to my friend's studio. She is an amazing jeweler also. She was giving classes to a small group of people. We were three people per class, with distance between each other. So, yes, we had the classes in person.
I basically didn't sell during the first year of COVID because in that year I was still working in packaging. The second year of COVID, I was almost ready. My studio was almost ready. I just started to show my work on my Instagram account, but I had just 20 followers or something. It was just the beginning. I really can’t tell you if COVID affected me as a brand because I was just beginning.
Sharon: What kind of brand were you after? Give us some buzzwords about your brand. Are you high end? Are you for everyone? Tell us a little bit about your jewelry.
Gabriela: Yes, of course. As I mentioned, I really like bold colors and shapes. I love to work with asymmetry and statement pieces. I love when my clients tell me that someone stopped and asked her, “I love your earrings! Where did you buy them?” I love them to be conversation starters. The main focus or the reason that I wake up every morning to make these pieces is to make people smile just looking at my pieces. I love to play with color. Bold colors, bold shapes, big earrings.
Sharon: You consider your jewelry a conversation starter. Is the way that people hear about your earrings, let’s say, by word of mouth? Tell us a little bit about that.
Gabriela: At the beginning when I started, my first customers were people from my city in Querétaro because I started to pay for some announcements, just in my city or in Mexico City. I started first with friends and family, as a normal startup or business that just starts. Then the word spread a little bit. Then it was like, “My friend Blanca told me about you and I love her earrings. Can you show me your earrings?” At that particular time, I didn't have a web page. I just had my Instagram account. So, with WhatsApp, I would send them some pictures of the pieces that I had at that particular moment, some videos of me wearing them. Also, if they wanted, because it was COVID still, I’d invite them to my studio to see the earrings in person.
Right now, because my journey started on Instagram, boutiques got in touch with me to ask for my pieces. Then the clients grew because I had pieces in Mexico City or in Guadalajara. Then I started to learn about a little bit of marketing, making advertisements on Instagram or Facebook to show my pieces to markets out there in the United States and Europe and Japan. It was amazing for me to see how Instagram helped me grow my business, to show my pieces in Japan or New Zealand or Europe. For me, it was amazing because I didn't think my pieces would go there and people from there were going to like my pieces.
Sharon: I could see how that would be exciting. Well, we wish you the best and that your business keeps going. Thank you very much.
Gabriela: Thank you so much, Sharon. Thank you so much for this opportunity and for your invitation. I really appreciate it.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gabriela Sierra
Gaby, designer and creator of Gabriela Sierra jewelry, is anything but a minimalist. Unafraid of color, she plays with bold shapes, textures and asymmetry. Her meticulously crafted pieces are meant to be conversation starters.
With a background in Industrial Design followed by a variety of courses at Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School, Gabriela Sierra merges design and fashion to create unique sculptural jewelry. The brand seeks to reflect the spirit of the slowmade process (quality over quantity). Founded in 2021, Gabriela Sierra is committed to good design by focusing on quality materials and the revaluation of craftsmanship.
Her work has been shown at different worldwide exhibitions:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Expertly combining bold colors and shapes in her jewelry, it’s clear that Gabriela Sierra has an eye for design. Beginning her career in furniture and packaging design, Gabriela made her lifelong dream of becoming a jewelry maker come true in 2021, when she opened Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her upbringing in Mexico and her current home in Montreal influence her work; why her business follows “slow made” principles; and how she became more confident about calling herself a jewelry designer. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.
Today, I'm talking with Gabriela Sierra of Gabriela Sierra Jewelry. Her Mexican heritage shines through because of the bold colors in her jewelry. You will immediately see that when you look at her jewelry. I'm talking to her today, and she's in Canada, where she travels.
She specializes in earrings. She uses recycled silver, and the stones she uses come from small, independent mines or mines that are located in Mexico. She believes in slow made. Her jewelry is meticulously crafted, and she does not have any inventory on hand. Almost everything is made to order at somebody’s request. Today, Gabriela will tell us about her business and how it works. Gabriela, welcome to the program.
Gabriela: I'm so excited to be here, Sharon. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Sharon: Can you tell us how you decided on jewelry as a profession?
Gabriela: Yes, sure. Well, I have always been drawn to jewelry since I was a kid. I was influenced by my mom and my grandmother. I remember her presence was always announced by the clicking of her bangles and her bold earrings.
I studied industrial design, and during university I took a jewelry class. That experience started everything, just initiated my passion. Basically, it started from that. I knew at that particular moment that I needed to find further training, so after I finished university, I took a four-month course at Alchimia Contemporary Jewelry School. I had an amazing time there, and also the teachers were absolutely wonderful. However, it took me some time to find the courage to start my own brand, which I did eventually, after eight years. Now I'm here.
Sharon: So, you studied industrial design before?
Gabriela: Yeah.
Sharon: Your passion for jewelry must have been underlying, and the industrial design really brought it out. So, after eight years, you decided to start your own brand. During most of that time, were you making different kinds of jewelry?
Gabriela: No, actually, when I came back to Mexico after taking the course at Alchimia, I was so afraid of failure. That's why I didn't start my own brand at that particular time. In my mind, it was better to find a normal job. So, during those eight years, I worked as a designer for furniture. I also specialized as a packaging engineer or packaging specialist. Basically, I wasn't working in jewelry those eight years.
Sharon: But you were working in design, right?
Gabriela: Yeah.
Sharon: Did your background help you in all of this? Does industrial design help?
Gabriela: Yes, of course. I think yeah, absolutely. Since the first job that I had, designing furniture, I actually like all the stripped elements. I take a lot of influence and ideas from what I see outside. You can actually see a few of my designs being an idea of a light bulb, for example. I think it helped a lot.
Also talking about packaging, especially the job that I had, it helped me a lot to understand a little bit of marketing and, of course, packaging. It gave me a big picture to understand a little bit more, not just the design part, but everything else, all the different areas involving the launch of a product.
Sharon: I'm sure you do a whole range of jewelry, but right now you seem to focus more on earrings. Is that true? And, if so, why?
Gabriela: Right now, yes, my main focus is on earrings. A month ago I started creating rings, a series of rings. But yes, I love earrings and my main focus is earrings. Why? The earrings are easier—not to create, but rings need to be sized. For me and in my experience, it’s easier to make earrings for everyone. Rings need to be sized, so it's not for everyone.
Sharon: Do you think you'll stick with earrings? Do you think you'll branch out from earrings to other things or stick with earrings?
Gabriela: No, I think I will start creating other things later on. Right now, I will create the series of rings. After that, I will probably start with some necklaces. But for sure, I will start doing things differently.
I’m from Mexico, but right now, I've been living in Montreal since last August. I came from another country and I’m learning about the culture here. Also, because I’m an atelier, I’m opening a new studio here in Montreal. I’m getting to know new artists and learning about them and their techniques. I think that travel helps a lot to create new things, just absorbing everything. So, I'm sure I'm going to create different things in the future, not just the earrings.
Sharon: Do you have ideas that you think about when you travel or see when you’re in Montreal? Does it give you ideas for different kinds of jewelry?
Gabriela: Yes, actually, my rings. I have made just three of them. I want to make 10. The concept behind the rings is winter. This is the first winter that I spent here in Montreal. What's beautiful is that it was the first time I saw snow. For me, it was beautiful. It was a big change. And it wasn’t just beautiful, it was also very hard.
I wanted to encapsulate this snow in these rings. They are quartz. They're carbon quartz, but the inside is similar to snow. What I wanted to create there was the idea of encapsulating snow, encapsulating that particular moment that I saw the snow on the street. They are big, they are bold. Yeah, they're big.
Sharon: Do you like the snow? Can you find it in Mexico, like in the mountains or somewhere?
Gabriela: Yes, you can find snow in Mexico, probably in the mountains or in the north of Mexico, like very close to the United States. But it’s not like here. The winter in Montreal is very tough. I think once we were -16 Celsius, so it’s very hard.
Sharon: Why do you manufacture in Mexico? I assume it's less expensive to manufacture there.
Gabriela: Well, my studio remains in Querétaro. My partner, Samantha, is in charge of making the pieces that can be replicated there. I'm the one in charge of overseas, making sure everything runs smoothly in Querétaro. Here, I work and make the one-of-a-kind pieces. Basically, most of the pieces are shipped from Querétaro. The silver is from Mexico. Most of the stones are from Mexico also. The pieces that I make here, most of the stones are from here or the United States. These particular pieces are shipped from here because I made them here.
Sharon: How do you decide which stones in which colors? You seem to flip, using the same color but a different combination, and some are totally different.
Gabriela: I think at the beginning when I didn't have a clear concept, I let the stones guide me through the combinations of the pieces. But after that, now that I have a clearer concept, I design first and then I pick the gemstones. Mexico is a country with a lot of gemstones, so I have a wide variety to choose from. I didn't have any problem finding beautiful gemstones there. But yeah, at the beginning, the stones basically guided me. I designed pieces based on the stone and the shape of the stone, then I created the pieces. Now, I’ve had more time designing and creating jewelry, so I first create the design and then decide which stone will be better with the design and the concept.
Sharon: When you say the stones guided you, do the stones ever talk to you and tell you what they should be or what they should be combined with?
Gabriela: Yes, absolutely. It's funny, but yes. It is something that I used to say. “The earnings are like this this because they told me they needed to be combined with this stone in this particular shape in this particular order.” Yeah, the stones talk to me a lot. It was more at the beginning, but now they just say, “Okay, I like your design, so yes, we can go together.”
Sharon: Do they ever say, “No, that's not right,” or “I don't like this”?
Gabriela: Yes, they do. For example, I first design a piece. Then I send the drawing to my supplier or different suppliers. I receive a sample, and then I see it with the silver, and I try them and finish that prototype. I need to see if they are good together, and sometimes it’s just not right. It feels not right. Maybe those stones don’t want to be next to the silver or this particular stone. I don't know. But yeah, totally.
Sharon: So you use different suppliers for stones?
Gabriela: Yes. In Mexico, as I previously said, we have a lot of options, and I have great connections with local suppliers here. The first one, the main one was Don Guille he was the first lapidary that I worked with.
Sharon: I'm sorry; is that a company name or a person's name?
Gabriela: I'm sorry. I called him by his nickname. His name is Guillermo.
Sharon: Okay. That's where you got your first stones from?
Gabriela: Yeah. He passed away, and now his son and grandsons continue his craft. I also have other suppliers in San Miguel. I also have one from India, Naseem. I also get some gemstones from India. Those three are my main suppliers. Now I'm here in Montreal and I am finding new ones because I prefer to work with the stones that are close to me in Canada. I also have a lot of gemstones in the United States.
Sharon: Do you have a favorite stone?
Gabriela: Yes, I have one. I don't know if you know this gemstone. The name of this gemstone is cotton candy agate. This particular gemstone is from Mexico. I love the color of this gemstone because it reminds me of a cherry blossom. It's a very soft pastel pink. That is my favorite gemstone, but I love all types of jaspers. I love gemstones with a lot of personality and different patterns and different colors. Actually, the first one that I mentioned, the cotton candy agate, most of my first designs and pieces were with this gemstone. I created a collection with this one.
Sharon: You use a lot of silver. Have you ever used a different metal?
Gabriela: No. All my pieces are made with silver until last week, because I finished a ring and I incorporated copper. But that's the only piece that I incorporated copper. I'm just experimenting to see how it looks, how I work with this new material, because I hadn’t worked with copper before. Mainly all the pieces that you see on my webpage are with silver, 10.50 silver.
Sharon: Going back to the cotton candy stone, the pale pink stone, tell us about working with something like that. Is it easier to work with?
Gabriela: That particular gemstone is easy to work with. The only difficult thing is that it's not easy to find. It’s from Mexico, but it's not easy to find that particular gemstone. That's why I have a few gemstones and that particular agate, but I'm saving them for the future because I haven’t found more of this gemstone.
Sharon: Do you get other stones or other pink stones? Is Mexico the only place that you can find them? Can you find them in the United States or in Canada also?
Gabriela: Yes, you can find it in the United States, but they are from Mexico. There are suppliers that bought this particular item from Mexico. But yes, you can find it in the United States on Etsy or Facebook, Instagram, different suppliers. But this particular gemstone is from Mexico and that's it. You're not going to find it anywhere else.
Sharon: Wow. So, they sell it to people in the States here. You're in Canada right now. Do you have any idea where you'll settle with your jewelry? Will you continue to work in Canada or move again?
Gabriela: Right now, I’m in Canada because my husband is studying a master’s here. Our idea or the main objective is to stay here in Canada. We love this city, Montreal. We have been here every year since four years ago. We love the culture, we love the weather, we love all the activities that are here.
The main thing that we love here is that we can see the difference between seasons. In Mexico, it's not that easy to see the difference between seasons. Mexico has very good weather. I'm not saying that. It’s just that you can’t differentiate between seasons, because mainly the entire year is the same temperature. It doesn't change a lot. But yeah, we want to stay here. We'll see. I hope we can stay here.
Sharon: As the seasons change the way you mentioned it, do they influence the stones? Do you make different kinds of jewelry in winter than in summer?
Gabriela: Yes, for sure. Right now, I haven't created new collections here because I just recently found a studio to work. I found it last October. I started to create collections a year ago when I was in Mexico, and I created three because of the change of seasons. Depending on the seasons, I try to look for particular colors of the gemstones. Maybe because it's summer, I'm looking for more vibrant colors. In autumn it’s more earth colors.
Also, when it's winter in Mexico, I try to make smaller earrings instead of bigger because during winter you are wearing scarves. In my mind it’s easier to wear smaller ones than big ones during winter.
Sharon: How do you introduce yourself? Do you introduce yourself as a jewelry designer? How do you describe yourself?
Gabriela: I always introduce myself as a jewelry maker, even though I also think I'm a jewelry designer. I think they go hand in hand. I think recently, in the last year and a half, I felt comfortable introducing myself as a jewelry designer.
Sharon: Jewelry designer, okay. What do you consider a collection? Is it the colors? Is it a number of pieces? What is a collection made of?
Gabriela: The collection that I created last year was my first one. So, for me, collection was a seasonal collection. I try to focus on the seasonal relevance at that particular time. I was inspired by the things during that particular season. For example, the one I created during summer was the candy collection. I created a collection of earrings resembling candies because they had vibrant colors, big statement earrings.
Sharon: When do you make those? It must be hard in winter to be thinking about summer jewelry, or in summer to be thinking about winter jewelry. That's when you're making the collection, right? Not in the season, but before the season.
Gabriela: Yeah, a little bit before. Just a little bit. I will admit that I’m not super organized. Sometimes I start making the rings or the collections just a couple of weeks before, so I’m seeing them in the middle of the season.
Sharon: So, it's right before. What are you designing now? What colors are you thinking about now as spring is going into summer? I don't know how it is in Montreal, but here it's really spring. If it started snowing, would you think of different colors? If you're already working on the spring collection and suddenly it starts snowing, for instance.
Gabriela: I'm a little bit behind, actually. I haven't finished the series of rings that I mentioned before, and for those rings the concept is winter. Right now I’m working with those. But at the same time in Mexico, Samantha is working on a collection for the web page with pieces that can be replicated. She's working with bold colors because spring is coming. We're working on new designs.
Actually, this week, she is making some prototypes that I just made. I need to see them and approve them in order to continue with the real production for these pieces. But they're going to be with bold colors. We are both working with glass and some jaspers, and also with carbon quartz.
Sharon: This is for production, but what were you describing by saying that you don't have a lot of inventory? That it’s one of a kind?
Gabriela: Well, we don't have a lot of inventory. The pieces that you see on our website are the pieces that we have in stock, and that's it. But those pieces that are not part of the one of a kind section, we can replicate them. The ones you are seeing on our web page are the ones we have available at the moment. If a client buys this piece right now, I need to make a new one in order to sell this new piece.
Sharon: Do you ever reject a prototype and say, “I decided I don't want green. I want red in it”? You reject the prototype, you’re saying yes.
Gabriela: Yeah. If I don't like it, yes, of course. I just reject it and try again. I iterate a lot until I find the right combination, the right size, the right color, everything.
Sharon: What do you mean by slow made? I've heard the term, but how do you define it?
Gabriela: For me, slow made is quality over quantity. It's attention to detail. Pieces are made to order, as I mentioned before. We don’t carry excessive inventory. We take our time to create each piece and to see that every piece is made at the right quality. Everything needs to be on point.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Terhi Tolvanen
Currently based in the French countryside, Terhi Tolvanen was born in Helsinki, Finland (1968). Following studies at the Lahti Design Institute, Finland, and the Gerrit Rietveld Academy, NL, Tolvanen earned a Master’s Degree in Jewelry at the Sandberg Institute, Amsterdam, NL.
Tolvanen’s works can be found in numerous distinguished private and public collections worldwide, including the Swiss National Museum, the Victoria & Albert Museum (London, UK) the Dallas Museum of Art (TX- USA) among others.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com:
Additional Resources
Transcript:
Terhi Tolvanen’s jewelry isn’t made of gold or diamonds, but in its own way, it’s just as precious. The Finnish jeweler uses natural materials like wood, raw minerals and shells to create jewelry that not only looks beautiful, but challenges viewers to reflect on the world around them. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her daily walks shape her work; how living in Amsterdam and rural France have changed her jewelry over the years; and her advice for emerging artists. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
We're so glad you're here today. I'd never heard of our guest, Terhi Tolvanen, before. I don't know how I missed her jewelry because I like large, statement-type pieces, and that's what many of Terhi's pieces are. I was really taken with them. Welcome back.
So, it’s finding things in nature that you put together in what you call a sculpture.
Terhi: Yeah, sculpture, jewelry. I do really make jewelry, but it's also all these wonderful materials that I manage to find. I'm also talking about, for example, light and movement. How do the trees, for example, move in the wind? This can be a big inspiration. Or an early summer rain, which gives a certain kind of light and color to things. I also have very many pieces where I'm talking about the metamorphosis of a flower, opening and being in full flower and then in the end fading away. The circle of life.
I'm very fond of moss also, which I find very beautiful. It also talks about time because moss is growing very slowly, and it takes over places that have not been really taken care of. What is taken care of? There are cultures, like in Japan, where they think moss is very important and beautiful. They pour sour milk over stone so that moss would grow better. Whereas in Europe the moss is taken away. They have pieces where, for example, it's a moss collection. I made my own moss, or I make my own mushrooms, which are also very fascinating.
Sharon: So, nature is where you get most of your inspiration from. From the things around you that other people might overlook?
Terhi: Yes, it's that. Yes, I think so. The starting point is a little bit in this experience that I had when I moved to Amsterdam. In Finland, it's so normal for everybody to have nature around, and it's so very normal to go to the forest and to be able to pick berries and mushrooms and walk around. When I moved to Amsterdam, I realized that this is not at all the case over there. Everything is planted. Nothing is wild. Even the forest is planted, and you should not touch anything. So, the nature experience is totally, totally different. This was not really shocking to me, but I found it very interesting at the time.
I think it’s really a human need to be in touch with nature, and in a city situation, it starts on the balconies. The very first pieces I made after school were about flowerpots and balconies where people are creating their own nature spaces in a mini way. I found that very interesting. When one has a little bit more space, this becomes a garden, and there are all different kinds of gardens, very well taken care of or very wild gardens.
I'm also very fond of all different garden wood. The best material for me is, for example, this curly hazelnut that has been pruned for many years, which makes it curl even more. This human interaction has been there already long before I get to this material in my hands. There are all kinds of fascinating situations with these thoughts.
Sharon: Are people surprised when they look at your work, like, “What is this? This isn't jewelry. There’s no diamonds or gold.” What is their reaction?
Terhi: Yeah, sometimes. I don't have so many new people around that I get to hear this kind of remark. But yeah, sometimes it happens like, “Really? It's very big and it must be very heavy.” They find it very strange that branches can make a necklace. I have the feeling that the big question is “But where is the value?” It’s easier to see the value when it's precious metal and shiny stones.
Sharon: How do you introduce yourself to people who don't know you? If people ask what you do, what do you tell them?
Terhi: I say I'm a jewelry artist, and then I have to explain. I say I’m a jewelry artist making contemporary jewelry because there are so many different types of jewelry. I have to explain that I'm selling my work through galleries and that there are collectors and museums buying, like it was any other art discipline like painting or sculpture. This explains the best, I think, the way I do work.
Otherwise, a remark I get very often is, “The Christmas market is very nice in that little town. Maybe this would be interesting for you.” Then I have to explain that I don't make pieces in series. My pieces are always unique pieces. I make some variations, but I never really copy a piece. There are some exceptions to the rule, but I haven't done it many times.
Sharon: You’re in many prestigious museums around the world. That must give you a lot of credibility when you're talking to people.
Terhi: Yes, of course. This is really fantastic, that my work is valued. It's very good for motivation, and, of course, it gives status. It's fantastic to be appreciated in my work. It's quite important. I would say it's very important for me, yes.
Sharon: It keeps you going. The first time a museum wanted to collect your work, did they come to you? Did they see it at a show? What happened?
Terhi: The museums and collectors are buying from the galleries, so I am not in direct contact with them. With the years, I have gotten to meet some of my collectors. I have quite a few in the U.S., and this is very far away. So, there are some I have never met in person. I would say I’ve met more in Europe at the openings. It's very nice and important to be there for my own openings and especially to meet people.
Sharon: Were you excited or inspired when you heard the museum bought your first piece or your second piece? Did it keep you going?
Terhi: Yes, absolutely. Yes. I have quite a good list now. I have a couple of museums I would like to have my pieces also, so I still have work to do.
Sharon: You mentioned that you're very busy in the studio right now. What are you working on?
Terhi: Yes, I'm always very busy. The whole year is a rhythm with solo exhibitions. For quite some years now, there’s a solo exhibition in one of my galleries every year. Then I have galleries that go regularly to fairs, and I try to have some new pieces for them. Right now, I'm finishing pieces for the Pearl Exhibition at Noel Guyomarc'h in Montreal. The Pearl Exhibition is touring now in several galleries, and then each gallery is asking other artists to participate. Noel asked me, among others. Then I'm also preparing some pieces for an art fair in Amsterdam. I'm also almost done with a customer order from Ornamentum Gallery.
Sharon: Would you say the market for jewelry is growing in France, or is it remaining stable?
Terhi: Well, it's quite stable, I would say, for quite some time now, which means in practice that I can't really work with any new galleries on a steady basis. I do participate in group exhibitions, of course, but I have four galleries now that I work with, and they wait all the time for new pieces. So, I'm full in work all the time.
Sharon: That’s a nice position to be in. At what point do the stones talk to you to say, “I'm going to be a necklace,” or I should be a ring or a bracelet”?
Terhi: Yeah, absolutely the materials talk to me. I'm a very materialistic maker in that sense. The materials are extremely important for me. This was already the case from the beginning. I'm only getting better in it, I think, and a little bit quicker. The way it goes is that I often let the wood—the branches that have certain shapes, I let them decide what shape the necklace would be. They tell me how they would be. There is a way in this puzzle work that when they are arranged in the best way, they also talk about movement or waves or so on.
The same thing with stones. For example, when I have a mineral, I carefully choose which side of this mineral I show, which is the front side, because there are differences. The back side is maybe not so nice. The color is maybe better from a certain angle. A lot also decides where I need to place the stones. For example, labradorite is very dependent on the light falling on the stone. When it is looked at from a certain direction, it gives this very strong blue and green light in the stone.
This is why I turn them around. Because jewelry pieces are three dimensional when they’re worn, I'm making my pieces on the mannequin. When I'm moving around my mannequin, I’m taking care that the stones are having light from all sides of the piece. It cannot be only from the front because a jewelry piece is never looked at only from the front.
I let the material decide a lot. With time I have learned to see. I'm really looking for certain qualities in the material. There are certain stones that absolutely need to be a ring because the stone is the most beautiful or spectacular or gives its best when it’s placed on the hand, where one can look at it and turn it around a little bit.
Sharon: Now, you've been doing this for about 20 years at least. What would you say to people who are just starting out? What would you tell emerging artists?
Terhi: I would tell them that when making, they have to give all the love they have to their work. This means that one needs to try to do his or her best every time because one cannot cheat on that. When you put all your soul and all the love you have into your piece, then it becomes a good piece. Love means it’s a good work because all artists are responsible for the quality of their work. In today's world, where there are so many objects, so many things that we don't need, what justifies the fact that art needs to exist? We have to do our best to make only really good pieces. This is possible when you give a lot of love. How do I know if my piece is ready and good? I, myself, find the piece really having a presence.
Sharon: So, that's what emerging artists or all artists should work towards.
Terhi: Yes, I think this is very important. With time, when they manage to concentrate on this question, at the same time, the technical skills and everything around it will develop as well.
Sharon: Well, thank you very much for talking with us today, Terhi. I hope we have a chance to do it again in the future.
Terhi: Thank you so much, Sharon, for having me. It was great.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Terhi Tolvanen
Currently based in the French countryside, Terhi Tolvanen was born in Helsinki, Finland (1968). Following studies at the Lahti Design Institute, Finland, and the Gerrit Rietveld Academy, NL, Tolvanen earned a Master’s Degree in Jewelry at the Sandberg Institute, Amsterdam, NL.
Tolvanen’s works can be found in numerous distinguished private and public collections worldwide, including the Swiss National Museum, the Victoria & Albert Museum (London, UK) the Dallas Museum of Art (TX- USA) among others.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com:
Additional Resources
Transcript:
Terhi Tolvanen’s jewelry isn’t made of gold or diamonds, but in its own way, it’s just as precious. The Finnish jeweler uses natural materials like wood, raw minerals and shells to create jewelry that not only looks beautiful, but challenges viewers to reflect on the world around them. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her daily walks shape her work; how living in Amsterdam and rural France have changed her jewelry over the years; and her advice for emerging artists. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. We're so glad you're here today.
I'd never heard of our guest, Terhi Tolvanen, before. I'll let her pronounce the name in Finnish. I don't know how I missed her jewelry because I like large, statement-type pieces, and that's what many of Terhi's pieces are. I was really taken with them. She uses a lot of materials found in nature, integrated with stones that we might see in other jewelry. Her work can be found in many prestigious museums around the world. She herself has studied in several countries, growing and perfecting her work. Today, we will learn a lot about Terhi and the inspiration and ideas you will find all around her. Welcome to the podcast, Terhi.
Terhi: Thank you so much, Sharon, for inviting me. It's great to be talking with you.
Sharon: I'm so glad that we have the chance to talk. Can you tell us why you moved from Finland to Amsterdam to France? Can you tell us how the materials varied in each area?
Terhi: I moved away from Finland. Originally, I was supposed to be going away for only one year, but after technical school, I was missing quite a lot to learn more about the reasons why to make things. At the time in Finland, there was no possibility to continue. That's why I started looking elsewhere.
I ended up then studying in Rietveld Academy in Amsterdam, in the Netherlands, and I totally fell in love with the school. The one year I was supposed to stay became six years. After four years, I also did a master course over there, and after school I stayed because it was great. I fell in love with jewelry. There were galleries, there were events, there were colleagues, there were things happening. During the school years, I made a lot of friends, and I found a place to stay and all that. Now for about 10 years, I've been in France. I moved to France because of love. I fell in love.
Sharon: Love, okay. And did you find materials different in each area?
Terhi: The materials, yeah, of course. Moving to France has changed the accessibility to my materials totally, because I moved to the countryside from the city. This meant that I was able to use more and more branches that I could collect and find a little bit everywhere. And I’ve continued what I started doing already in the Netherlands for finding all my minerals and stones. I would go to mineral fairs. Now that I'm in France, I go to Paris.
Sharon: Are there are a lot of materials in Paris? Do you find things to work with?
Terhi: There is a quite good mineral fair once a year, in the beginning of December. I almost always have to wait one year if I want to have something or find the same thing again or find new material. When I do that, I have to count that I have enough for working for one year. I buy a lot and I don't always use everything. Sometimes it can even take up to five years before I really know what I want to do with certain minerals, but this is always very exciting for me. I'm a very big fan of minerals and stones in any shape and color and format.
I have used a lot of rough minerals that I would cut just a little bit so that the dimensions would fit on a piece. For about three or four years, I've also been buying some cut stones. When I still lived in Amsterdam, I used to work with a stone cutter who would cut stones especially for me, and that was a very good cooperation. Since then, he has stopped working a little bit in that way. But he would save me things the normal goldsmiths wouldn't want to buy. He learned very quickly that was interesting for me. Mainly it was things that were a little bit different, a little bit less perfect than a traditional goldsmith would want to use.
Sharon: How long have you been a maker? Did you choose it later or did you choose it when you were young?
Terhi: I have been a maker since my graduation from the Sandberg Instituut. The master course in Amsterdam is called Sandberg Instituut. I graduated from there in 1999, and I had my first solo show in 2000. Of course, it took a little time to get going. But now it's 24 years ago. It’s long.
Sharon: And you knew when you graduated that you wanted to be a maker or a jeweler. That's what you wanted to do professionally.
Terhi: Yes. I was asking this question a lot while studying. When I started studying in Amsterdam, I was absolutely convinced that I don't want to be an artist and I don't want to make jewelry. But I thought, “Never mind. I will be able to learn a lot of important things anyway at school.” This meant that during a lot of school years, I was trying all kinds of different things. I was drawing a lot, I was making objects, I was working a lot with textiles, sort of half- clothes, half-sculpture pieces.
And then at one moment towards the end of the master course, when it really became a reality that soon I will have to get out of the school and go into the real world, I really decided, “Okay, I will make jewelry,” because my conclusion, after all these school years, was that that's the thing I can do the best. So, I really chose it. Also, because of the situation at the time in the Netherlands, it was possible to ask for working grants for jewelry arts. I had some very good school friends that were very much encouraging me to take the jewelry direction. So, yes, it was a very conscious decision at the time, and I have not regretted it.
Sharon: It was long periods when you were in a country. You said you were in Amsterdam for six years. Did you teach? I don't know, maybe I have that wrong.
Terhi: No, not there. I was there for school for six years altogether. Also, I stayed for the reason that it was cheaper to work at school than rent a studio. When I graduated from the Instituut, I stayed in Amsterdam because it was, work wise, very exciting to stay there. I had a job on the site. Then later I got a working grant. I had a nice studio, so I stayed in Amsterdam until 2013 when I moved to France.
Sharon: I have to ask if you knew the languages before you came to each country. Well, English in Amsterdam works. What languages do you speak?
Terhi: I'm multilingual. in Amsterdam I decided that I would like to learn Dutch because I thought it is very important for the quality of life. I managed to learn Dutch, so I speak Dutch quite fluently. At school it was a lot in English, of course. I speak Finnish, Dutch, English, and now in France, people don't speak so much English, so I really had to learn French. I had already studied French during all my school time in Finland, so I had a base for that, but I couldn't speak it so well. Now, of course, with all the years, I have learned to speak French. I'm teaching now in France at ENSAD Limoges, the École Nationale Supérieure d'Art et de Design, which is one of the national art schools. I'm teaching in French.
Sharon: As you learned each language, did your works change? Did it make it easier to work or harder? Did you see a change in your work?
Terhi: Well, living abroad, it's often lost in translation, of course. To know a language very well, you need to also understand the mentality and the culture of each country. I don't know if it's so much the language that's influencing the work. It's more the physical fact being in a certain place with certain surroundings. Of course, for me nature is very important. It's a richness, the language is. Definitely, yes.
Sharon: Your most recent exhibition, I don't know if you had another one since then, but last summer you were at Ornamentum Gallery. Your work was shown at Ornamentum Gallery, which is in Massachusetts, I think.
Terhi: It’s in Hudson, New York.
Sharon: Okay. I couldn't remember. Hudson, New York. The exhibit was called Moderate to Southwest Winds. What does that mean in jewelry? What did you think it meant?
Terhi: I chose the title. It's a weather forecast. It's taken out of a weather forecast. I chose that because while working for that show, I realized that what is really making the rhythm of my work and my thinking is the weather. I go out every morning for a walk, and this is a very important moment for me depending on the face in the work. Either I try to just empty my mind and observe things in nature. I look at colors and light and shapes and textures. Or, when I'm a little bit further in the work, then the moment of walking is very nice for finding solutions, so I'm working in my head.
And, of course, what is then very important is the weather. If it's nice weather, if the sun is shining, if it's raining, if it's the spring or the winter. In wintertime, there is not so much light, so I have to wait for the light to be able to go out. This is totally deciding the rhythm of my day. As I also wrote at the time for the text of the exhibition, all my life I've been following the weather forecast. I check every morning what kind of weather it's going to be. I plan my day. If it's raining in the morning, I will go and do my walk in the afternoon and so on. This is something that I learned from my grandfather in Finland who had a little summer cottage on a little island. It's important to know what kind of weather it is, if it was safe to take the boat to the mainland or not. This is a kind of habit. It's sort of a daily ritual for me.
I was also thinking that as the weather is the factor that is so important, I can also say that what was a little bit different for this exhibition was that the theme was a little bit more general. I let myself have the freedom of not deciding so tightly the theme that I'm working on. During COVID, I had put aside all kinds of different plans, all kinds of pieces that I wanted to make but I was not able to make at the time. I also had some materials that they had put on the site especially for the show at Ornamentum. I decided to make the show in that way, that I will make all these pieces that were waiting to be made. I found that, like the weather, the circumstances of the situation led to that conclusion somewhat and what I could say.
Sharon: How did COVID affect you and your work?
Terhi: I found it a very, very difficult time. I didn't stop working totally, but I was not able to really make my big pieces. It was quite military like, I would say. How to explain? The French system was very strict. To go out, you had to sign a paper and you had to tell what you were going to do, and you had one hour to do that. If you would not be back at home on time, then you would get fined. There was a very efficient fear campaign on television and so on.
It felt very uncertain, and I'm sure this was the case for everybody. It took away a lot of the safe feeling which is necessary to be able to really dive into a big work. In a way, the time was cut in small moments when it was possible to create. Ever since I started working, I think the COVID year was really the first year that I didn't have so much production.
Sharon: Were you allowed to go out to your studio? Is your studio in your home or is it separate?
Terhi: At the time, I had a studio in a little town close to home. When they announced that the lockdown is going to come, I moved the most important things from my studio to my home so then I didn't have to go. This would have been possible. I could have signed the paper and said, “I’m going to my work,” but I felt better working at home. Also, being in the countryside, it was more free to go out. It was an isolated house at the time. I have moved since, but it was much easier to be there than in a city situation. I'm glad I did it. I moved my goldsmithing bench and my main tools and my main materials.
Sharon: You moved them home?
Terhi: Yeah, I had a little room at home to be able to work.
Sharon: What did you want them to learn from the exhibition? Let's say your show at Ornamentum was the first time they were seeing your work or contemporary jewelry. What did you want them to learn by looking at it?
Terhi: I'm very concerned about wearability in my work. This gives the scale. For somebody who is not so acquainted with contemporary jewelry, a lot of times people find it very big. I like to say that my work is sculpture. Then one could say that it's wearable sculpture.
I'm also, first of all, talking about nature since the beginning. I'm working on the same theme in a way for about 20 years. I never changed because there are always new things. What I want to really put in the front—this is a little bit of a French saying, sorry—is that nature is very precious, and there are a lot of very beautiful things to see. How to put it very simply? I just want to show that it's very special. There are a lot of little things you can see when one walks in the forest. It’s worthwhile to really look.
This sounds a little bit like no explanation because there are so many factors. But I'm talking about a dialog between man and nature. I'm talking about respect towards nature. I'm talking about this kind of eagerness to control nature, and the nature is fighting back so this dialog is never ending. Of course, today this is a topic that is more actual than ever. There are so many wonderful things. It's amazing, I think. I mean, just the mineral world. It's amazing what nature can make.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Suzanne Martinez
Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang’s collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang’s Antique Jewelry University.
Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology.
Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional resources:
Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don’t have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store’s services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker’s marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. Welcome back.
Do you manufacture yourselves? Does Lang manufacture?
Suzanne: We have what we call our Lange line. Sometimes a piece of jewelry will come in and it's worn out. It doesn't have another livelihood, so we can't guarantee it to a customer. I'm talking about a ring in particular. We have, probably for more than 20 years, been making hand-fabricated rings that are in the style of or influenced by a real ring design. They're very similar to the older pieces, and we hand fabricate them.
In the last few years, we've had a greater demand. People don't want to pay for the cost of having a ring hand fabricated like the originals. It's very expensive when a mounting costs more than the diamond you're setting in it, and that's not unusual. So, we have done some work with partners that do CAD that have helped us create our designs in CAD, but we do very little of that. 90% of what we do, if we're going to take an old stone and remake a ring out of it, is hand fabricated. We try and stick to the tenets of the old jewelry that we sell.
Sharon: Do people come in and say, “Can you repolish this stone?” Maybe they have an old ring, a vintage ring, and the stone is beat up but they want it repolished.
Suzanne: That's a really good question. The stones that get beat up are things that are not a diamond. You have to be pretty hard on a diamond to beat it up or to chip it. But sapphires, if they've been worn for 15, 20 years even, they're going to have some abrasions on them. When we buy a piece of jewelry, that’s one of the things we do. We will remove those stones and repolish them before we resell them.
But as far as a customer coming in with their own personal collection, we don't have an in-house lapidary, so we don't do that. There are people that specialize in and help people refurbish like that, but it's not something we offer because we don't do it in-house.
Sharon: Was your business affected by COVID?
Suzanne: It was actually positively affected. I think people had more time. We know they had more time at home, and I think people did a lot more screen time. We had a lot more visitors to our website, and people got very excited about antique jewelry, especially colored stones and things they could wear on a Zoom call so people could see their jewelry, like a pair of earrings or a pendant. Business increased because of that, which was very good. I think the awareness grew. People found out about antique jewelry more. Look at Instagram. Instagram is different than it was three years ago, but there were a lot of people spending a lot of time on Instagram and other social media and just watching, because it's eye candy. People come to our website for the same reason. Who doesn't like to look at beautiful jewelry?
I just told this story to a customer that came in yesterday. It just came to mind. We used to keep our jewelry in our window. We used to have probably a thousand pieces in the window, tons of jewelry just packed in. I'd watch people walk by. They'd stop in the window, and then they'd walk away with a big smile on their face because jewelry makes people happy. It's beautiful. I think people gained an appreciation during that time period.
Sharon: Did you see an increase in sales because people didn't have things to spend the money on?
Suzanne: Well, they weren't traveling. They weren't going out to eat, so they were buying jewelry. We were lucky because part of our business is an e-commerce business, and it's something we've done for a long time. I think some of the jewelers that didn't have that ability to interact with their clients in the same way probably didn't gain from it. But it was good for our business.
Sharon: When you had a thousand pieces or a lot of jewelry in the window, did you take it out every night?
Suzanne: Oh yeah, every single piece. We had our windows designed so they were modular, so you could take a whole tray of jewelry out and put it on carts and take it to our walls to sell it. We made it work because if you had to take out one at a time, that would take you another couple of hours.
Sharon: Do you have local people, people in San Francisco or in Northern California, who come to the store just to look at the window or to look and see what's new?
Suzanne: It's really interesting, because when people come into our store, they're either going to have an appointment or we're a destination. They know who we are before they come. They might be coming to see what's new. They might be coming because they have a particular piece of jewelry they want to look at, and sometimes it's just part of their trip to San Francisco. They always come to Lang.
Sharon: Do you sell things besides rings, or is it all rings or mostly rings?
Suzanne: No, I would say rings are probably half of what we sell, colored stone and diamond rings, then all other kinds of jewelry. People wear brooches still, believe it or not. We sell a lot of pins and brooches. You don't see people wearing them as much, but we're bringing that back. We like them. They're beautiful, small forms of art, you know?
Sharon: I was intrigued because you used the word collectors. I looked at the store and it was all rings. As I was scrolling through, it seemed like one on every two pages was something that wasn't a ring.
Suzanne: Well, you have to filter, just like any website you're on. We have filters set up so that you can choose how you look at different jewelry. If you want to look at rings, if you want to dive in and just look at sapphire rings, if you want to look at Art Deco sapphire rings, you can do all of those things. You can look at all of our jewelry in one page, which is a few thousand pieces that are online. That's kind of an ominous task. So, filtering is a good way to use our website to find what you're looking for, or just to look. Like I said, it's eye candy.
Sharon: How often do you get things that might not be a ring that you would put on the website or people come to the store to see?
Suzanne: If you watch our What's New page, you'll see that we sell more things and post more things that are not rings. Rings are maybe 30 to 40% of what we put on our website. There are pendants, earrings, brooches, necklaces, a little bit of everything.
Sharon: In reading the description of your store, that it’s world renowned, it seems like you have everything related to vintage engagement rings or vintage rings.
Suzanne: That is what we're known for. We have over 800 diamond rings. That's a large collection of vintage diamond rings. We've curated our collection very carefully over the years. People buy from Lang because all of our rings have been fully restored. For example, the prongs are not worn down anymore. We will replace and put new prongs on the ring. If the diamond has a small chip, we remove the diamond and we'll repair the chip before we put it back in. All of our diamonds of one carat or larger, we send to the GIA for a lab report. We do a lot of work to make sure that the ring we're selling has all the necessary information for a customer to make a decision on whether they want to buy it.
When you look at an antique diamond, it has a different kind of beauty than a modern round brilliant. Most antique diamonds have a little bit of color to them. They are a J or a K color very commonly, and you have to kind of throw out the standard of the modern round brilliant-cut because you can't compare them. An old diamond has a different way of reacting with light. It breaks the light up into spectral colors more. It's just a playful, beautiful diamond, so it doesn't look like every other round brilliant-cut diamond. Each one is hand cut and unique. To me, that's a starting point of what makes an antique ring so special.
Then you get the way that the ring is manufactured. They're hand fabricated, and die striking is a very high-quality way of making a ring. It started because platinum was an expensive metal in the past. Now its price per ounce is less than gold. It's still harder to work in, but it was always the most expensive metal. It was always 10 times the cost of gold. Because of this, up until 1920, there were no white metals other than silver. White gold hadn't been patented. It was patented probably in 1918, 1919, but it didn't get into manufacturing techniques until 1920. If you see somebody that says it's a Victorian piece of jewelry and it's white gold, that is the wrong description. There is no way. There was no white gold manufacturing in the 19th century. 1920 is the demarcating line.
After that, they were able to offer white metal jewelry, which was popular in Art Deco, black and white jewelry. This could be offered to people because they were die striking white gold instead of hand fabricating platinum. It still was a high-quality product, but they were using the less expensive white gold versus the platinum. It also justified using a quarter carat diamond, whereas to hand fabricate a platinum ring with a quarter carat, you don't see that. Well, of what survived. That would be a rarity, to see something under a half carat.
Sharon: Do you have to explain this to a couple that comes in looking for a ring with a modern diamond that was a third of the price or half the price?
Suzanne: Usually, people that are already interested in vintage and antique, older rings, they're coming for a different reason. They've already decided this is what they want. They're not saying, “Well, why shouldn't I buy a round brilliant-cut diamond?” But we answer all their questions, and not everybody needs to do a deep dive. If you're someone who has no background in the jewelry business, to tell them about 1920 and die striking and all that, that may be a little too much information for them. We have it and we're there to give it to them, but we let the customer guide their own journey and ask the questions. We find it's a lot easier for them to manage. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yeah.
Suzanne: And just to clarify another thing, the man doesn't come in and buy the ring that often. The man and the woman come in together. It's very common for that. And we have women coming in together and men coming in together. We have all kinds of couples that are buying antique and vintage jewelry.
Sharon: I know how detailed it can be to look at a vintage and everything you're talking about. I can see myself saying, “Enough already. That's all I need to know.”
So, you're a jewelry historian. The Antique Jewelry University was already somewhat started by Christie Romero, but what motivated you to continue to develop it into such an in-depth resource?
Suzanne: Something that I have always done for myself personally, for my staff, with the GIA alumni, it's all continuing education. Whenever I go to the Tucson Gem and Mineral Show, I go to as many educational presentations as possible. I've been involved with the GIA Alumni for over 30 years. We bring speakers to our local chapter and continue their education and elevate people so they know more. There are so many topics as far as jewelry is concerned that it's just fascinating. You have gem cutters, you have people that manufacture, you have jewelers. What's your design process? There are so many ways to learn. We have miners that come and speak to us and talk about their journey into the earth and how they extract certain kinds of gems. That's just barely scratching the surface.
Continuing education is so important to me personally. In order for me to buy jewelry and understand it, I had to learn. How is anyone else going to understand my process so they are confident to buy from Lang? It's all part and parcel. It's all education. Someone comes in and, like you said, we do educate them to the degree that they want to be educated. All this information is free. Antique Jewelry University, we've never charged for it. We have more than one full-time staff person working on AJU every day. It's something that we do to give back to our community. It’s very important to me.
Sharon: How do you promote it? How do you let people know about it? Jewelry organizations I’ve been in, we know about it, but how do you let the larger world know it's available?
Suzanne: It's kind of an organic process. We share it with our customers in every way we can. I usually speak at least once a year. I'll speak somewhere, or I will go to a conference and set up a table. My partner in doing this is Starla Turner. We have a table, we'll bring different rings, we'll have a card on each ring and say, “Here's a loupe. Look at it, and this is what you're going to look for.” Then we have Antique Jewelry University running on a computer, and we have a big poster.
We want people to know about it, but most of the people that use it are in the trade. How do you educate somebody as to what they are buying? Is it authentic? That is a hard thing to do with the public because they don't have the basic knowledge to start with. So, Antique Jewelry University has many levels. You could be a novice and you just want to come in and find out when a piece was made. My grandmother gave me a locket. When do you think that locket was made? There's a place for you to find out that information. Then if you want to dive a little deeper, you can. What's the history of lockets?
Or someone who is a historian themselves, they might want to add to the knowledge they have, or share with us the knowledge they have to help us create a deeper knowledge base on a particular topic. Think of it as tiered information. We have people come to us, whether they’re shopping on our website, or they've found out about us through Instagram or Facebook or Pinterest and they want to find out more information, they go to Antique Jewelry University.
Sharon: Could I come to your store and have your staff look at a piece of jewelry and tell me what they think it is?
Suzanne: Absolutely. That's half the fun of coming to Lang. You get to really look at these pieces. It's kind of like a museum. You get to look at pieces and they’re for sale. You can touch them. You can have someone tell you about them. It's fun. It's really fun.
Sharon: Why did you continue it after Christie passed away?
Suzanne: Christie just did the timeline. That's what she started. I did the glossary of terms, and she gifted that to us before she died. We included that. I had already started the glossary. I met Christie. The two of us became friends. I call her one of my people. This is why you go to jewelry shows. This is why you go to gem shows. These are your people that understand and have the same passion that you do. She was very passionate. I was really grateful that she was in my life and that we had this part of our journey together.
Sharon: And you just continued adding to it when she wasn't available to do it.
Suzanne: Yeah. Christie passed about 20 years ago. We've been adding content to Antique Jewelry University since the day we started. I think it launched in 2020ish. That’s when we launched the website.
Sharon: Did you ever think it would be such a resource or so big?
Suzanne: Oh, no. It just kind of unfolded. At first it was just, how do you share a library? Let's just add some things so that people have a resource to find out about what they're buying. It was more for our customers. Then we realized there's a huge community out there, whether they're customers or not, and we all benefit from each other.
We're a community of people, and everyone that works at Lang is passionate about jewelry. I have gemologists on staff that are just—my friend Starla I was talking about, she's a black belt gemologist. We have Mary, who is an incredible historian that continues to write articles for Antique Jewelry University. The head of our marketing is Nicole Corsini, and she's a gemologist as well as, if you pick up the phone and want to talk to her about a piece of jewelry that you're interested in buying, she will tell you everything about it because she's got the history. She understands marketing and how to present information to you.
Everybody has something that they are special in as well as the passion. When you shop at Lang, you're shopping with passionate people that just love what they do. I'm very, very blessed to have all these people. It's a really special organization.
Sharon: It seems like it. I didn't know it was so extensive. I knew of Lang and the Antique Jewelry University, but I didn't realize it was so in-depth and extensive.
Suzanne, thank you for being here today. We really enjoyed it. We learned a lot. thank you very much.
Suzanne: It was my pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you, Sharon.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Suzanne Martinez
Suzanne Martinez is the co-owner of Lang Antiques, a San Francisco-based shop that offers the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang’s collection. She actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang’s Antique Jewelry University.
Suzanne started collecting rocks and minerals as a child, and by the time she was 13 knew that the jewelry world was her passion. For fun she makes enameled jewelry and studies natural history and Latin American cultural anthropology.
Images courtesy of Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional resources:
Lang Antique and Estate Jewelry is the prime destination for vintage jewelry lovers, but you don’t have to be in San Francisco to take advantage of the store’s services. Lang ships jewelry globally and offers Antique Jewelry University, a completely free online guide to maker’s marks and jewelry history. Jewelry historian and Lang co-owner Suzanne Martinez joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Lang curates its huge collection of antique engagement rings; the history of Antique Jewelry University; and what she looks for when evaluating an antique piece. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.
Today, we're talking with Suzanne Martinez of Lang Antiques in San Francisco. I should say that's where the brick and mortar is, but they sell all over the world. Lang Antiques is the country's, if not the world's, largest purveyor of vintage engagement rings. They have an unparalleled collection.
Suzanne herself is a jewelry historian, among other things. Lang Antiques has developed an online Antique Jewelry University. Researchers from all over the world use this as a resource to research the history of a piece of jewelry. If you're interested in jewelry, then this makes a very good read. I was looking at it last night again, and I didn't have any piece of jewelry in mind, but it was very interesting to read.
I’ve heard Suzanne give a talk at ASJRA, another major jewelry organization, and I’ve heard Suzanne give talks identifying a piece of jewelry, and she goes into tremendous detail. There's no way that you could not look at a piece of jewelry and know what you should be looking for. She'll tell us more about Antique Jewelry University. She'll also tell us how over the years, the store has become world renowned. They have done this by developing an unparalleled collection of jewelry, a reputation for professional expertise, and the longevity of this jewelry store. Suzanne, welcome to the program.
Suzanne: I'm happy to be here. Good morning.
Sharon: Can you tell us where the Lang in Lang Antiques and Estate Jewelry comes from?
Suzanne: We bought the store from Jarmilla Lang in 1991. She was the original owner of the store and a jewelry historian herself way before her time. She had worked in Europe in museums, so she had this breadth of knowledge of decorative arts and jewelry that she brought to San Francisco with her when she opened this store.
Sharon: Wow. There aren’t any certificates as a jewelry historian. It’s just knowledge, right? Knowledge and other people saying, “Well, you're a jewelry historian.” I presume you're a gemologist also. You look at so many rings. That’s very interesting.
What do you say to those who would never buy a piece of jewelry online because they have to feel it and see it and all of that?
Suzanne: Like you said, I am a gemologist and I have been for 45 years. Part of the gemological training is learning how to be forensic with what you’re looking at. Whether it's a gemstone or a piece of jewelry, if you are buying from someone who is knowledgeable enough to understand what they're looking at and share that information with you, that gives a huge degree of trust. I think that's one thing that stands out for Lang. We have a really good understanding of whether it’s a real piece of antique jewelry. How is it made? Why is this design important? Who else made this design popular over time and why? We like to give tidbits of history with every piece we sell.
I do call myself a jewelry historian, but by no means do I know everything. I have a library. I haven't read every single book in my library. However, if a piece comes in and I look at it, I know which book to look for to find a reference about it. And there are many jewelry historians that I look up to. It's a community.
Sharon: If I see a piece of jewelry on your website and I want to know more about it, or I want to know if I can trust this outfit If I don't know it, do I call you or send you the piece? Can you explain the process?
Suzanne: If you want to know more about your own piece of jewelry, that's why we have Antique Jewelry University. It's a place where you can do your own research. We have a huge database of hallmarks because one thing that we probably get the most inquiries about is, “Who made this piece of jewelry? Here's the mark I have.” We refer them to this database we have because it's pretty impressive.
Auction houses and appraisers and people all over use that database. Every piece of jewelry we have with a maker's mark, we do our best to research it. It’s not always easy. It’s not always possible. Then we photograph it, and we include it on our website. We try and add a little snippet about who the jeweler was, where they were located, and what years they did their manufacturing.
You have to match when a piece was made because some there are false marks, too. If a piece of jewelry is marked 585, which is the percentage for 14-karat gold, it was not made in the 19th century. They didn't mark jewelry like that. There is that forensic bit, too. Hopefully we can help people down that path. We call it the jewelry journey. We do. It’s finding out when their jewelry was made.
If they want to find out more about a piece of jewelry we have on our website that they might be interested in buying, we invite inquiries. We talk to them over the phone or by email, whatever they're comfortable with, and try and satisfy all their questions about it and add information as well.
Sharon: Did you develop the online Antique Jewelry University yourself?
Suzanne: When we started our website, that was back in 1998. We were kind of early adapters. There were no e-commerce platforms at that time, so we developed our own e-commerce platform. By the early 2000s, we were actually selling online. When we launched our website, Antique Jewelry University was a 1000-word glossary.
I had been collecting terms. Christie Romero was an incredible jewelry historian. She was here in Southern California, and she taught jewelry history. I don't remember which college it was down there, but she would put on symposiums and bring speakers in. Anyway, incredible woman. She started a glossary of terms and a timeline that, when she passed—unfortunately, she's no longer with us—she gifted to Antique Jewelry University. So, between her information and my glossary of terms, we started Antique Jewelry University and just built upon it.
Sharon: Do you continue to build upon it if you see a new term or something you haven't included before?
Suzanne: Absolutely. We are always researching. We have a woman who does a lot of our writing. Her name is Mary Borchert, and that is her job, just doing research. We have quite a library of reference books, so everything that we put on Antique Jewelry University is fully referenced. We notate that at the bottom of all our articles as well. We're not just copying it from somewhere else on the internet, which a lot of people do, and a lot of people copy Antique Jewelry University. That can be a compliment, but at the same time, we do all of our own work.
Sharon: That's impressive, considering how in-depth it is. Just look at it online. Why do you think that the interest in antique jewelry has grown so much in the past few years?
Suzanne: I think there's a lot of transparency. A lot of people are able to access information because of the advent of social media. Just think of all the people that are sharing their own personal information. We are on all the different social media channels as well, and I've seen them grow. If you have an interest in a particular type, like Art Nouveau jewelry, you can find Art Nouveau jewelers that have Instagram or Pinterest and look at beautiful jewelry and learn about it. In the past, when I started as a jeweler, if you didn't have a library, there was no place to go. You went to a museum, and that's where you found your information. Now I think it's a rich time for people to access information.
I think we also visually see antique and vintage jewelry worn on the red carpet, at the Met Gala, and we see jewelry that is inspired by antique jewelry. You have famous houses. Everybody knows who Cartier is. You have the most beautiful antique Cartier jewelry, and then you have people that have copied it. That's a big tribute, but you don't always know if it’s a Cartier or it isn’t. That's why it's important who you buy it from. But at the same time, it's permeated everything, antique and vintage styles. Whether it's somebody creating something new with a nod to something vintage or it's truly vintage, I think it's just what people see today. It's massive.
Sharon: Your selection of engagement rings is massive. Have you seen that grow in the past few years, the interest and the couples coming in and wanting to see your vintage only?
Suzanne: Because that's what we specialize in—we specialize in antique diamonds, so our vintage and antique jewelry is why people come to buy from us. They understand that it’s socially responsible, it’s recycled. That's one of the reasons they buy it. They also want a little bit of history. They want something that no one else has, something very unique. They want something that has a beautiful design and is executed in a way that jewelry isn't executed today. You get a beautiful Edwardian jewel, no one can make a piece of jewelry like that in today's world. They just don't. The jewelry today is made on CAD. Very few jewelers are hand fabricators or can fabricate something that delicate. If you want the real deal, you're going to shop at a store like Lang.
Sharon: What happens if you get a call from somebody outside of the U.S. or even on the other side of the U.S. that wants a piece? They want a vintage engagement ring, but they can't come to the store. What do you do?
Suzanne: Actually, more of our customers are outside of our store and shop just online because we have jewelry that no one else has. Where are they going to find it if they don't find it from a store like Lang? We have a very large selection. It's not unusual for a customer to narrow their choice down to two or three. Sometimes we just send them all three and they can try them on in the comfort of their own home. They have a period of time which they can return them. We make it work.
Sharon: I thought it was really interesting that you had that, the one, two, three. Maybe it's the person who writes about the antique jewelry. The one, two, three of what you look for to know more about a piece of jewelry. That was like first looking at the hallmarks. I looked at it last night but I don’t remember what’s next.
Suzanne: For a private individual, when they're trying to identify their own jewelry, style is really important. But for an individual, if you have family history and you know that piece was your grandmother's, at least you have a date within which to start. If you're just out in the world and you identify a piece of jewelry that you love but you don't really know how old it is, that's a little more difficult. How do you know it doesn't match the type of manufacturing techniques that were done when, say, an Art Nouveau piece of jewelry was made, versus something that is made today in the Art Nouveau style? That is something that's a little harder. That's why you need to rely on an appraiser, someone to help you with that.
But when I personally look at a piece of jewelry, how I select a piece of jewelry for our store, style is really important. Good design is always good design. Bad design is obvious, and it just doesn't make a great piece of jewelry. The techniques of manufacture have to be right. It has to be in excellent condition. There's a lot of things that I look at that go in the background, that not everybody sees when they look at a piece. They see a beautiful piece of jewelry when they're shopping, but the backstory is it has to be in excellent condition. It has to be correct.
Lang is very careful about letting people know when, for example, cufflinks have been out of style for quite some time, and a lot of the cufflinks that were made circa 1900 to 1930 are small. They're very small. They're really too small for men to wear. Men don't wear them, and they're very delicate. What we do is convert them to earrings. We make the most beautiful earrings out of these cufflinks that otherwise would lose their livelihood, and we've been very successful with doing that. But we tell people these were converted from a pair of earrings, whether it's Art Nouveau or an Art Deco cuff link. Those are the kinds of things that if we make a change, we tell people about it.
Sharon: If somebody wants to sell jewelry to you or to another place, let's say they take their family collection and show it to you, or they take it out of the safe deposit box and decide they want the jewelry to be out in the world, what do you say? Have you ever turned people away?
Suzanne: Absolutely. What if something was made in the last 25 years and its value is gold? It's something that is mass produced and there's lots and lots of them made and it's not in style anymore. It deserves to be recycled into something more beautiful again. In all pieces, it's back to that design, quality, authenticity and condition. Those are the things that I look for.
I wish I could say I could buy every single piece that comes through my door, but realistically we have a large collection. Let's say right now I have 30 hardstone cameos. If someone brought me a hardstone cameo today, I would have to make sure that it exceeded my current collection to add it to my collection, or it has to be something that I feel customers are buying right now.
The market goes up and down. Retro is a little soft right now. I like it. It's beautiful. The designs are gorgeous, but I'm not adding to our retro collection because we have a pretty extensive retro collection right now. Those are the kinds of things where sometimes I will say no. But usually individual, one-of-a-kind pieces of jewelry, that's what we're looking for.
Sharon: Can you recognize if something is one of a kind when it’s presented to you? I know you think about things and what you have, but do you research the piece? Do you look at it under the microscope?
Suzanne: Some pieces definitely need to be researched, but most pieces are jewelry where maybe more than one of them has been made. In our diamond ring collection, for example, during the 1920s and 1930s, a lot of those rings were die struck. They were made in a die and many of them were made, but very few survive. In all my years of buying and selling vintage engagement rings and antique engagement rings, maybe I've seen a handful that were the same as one I had already seen.
That’s because the piece may be struck on a die, but then its hand pierced, its hand finished. There may be a garland or small milgrain, or it may have small diamonds added to it and this one doesn't have diamonds added to it. Each one has a handprint of a person on it, the work master or the person that does the engraving or the setter. Each one has its own imprint, so they still tend to look one of a kind. But knowing the underlying structure of something is still one of the ways we determine when it was made. You know when you see a die struck ring, that's the period of time within which it was made.
Sharon: Do people bring lab-grown diamonds in? I know they're not vintage, but do you ever see lab-grown diamonds?
Suzanne: I think the secondary market for lab grown diamonds hasn’t really hit yet because they've only been super popular in the marketplace for three years. That's about it. And their prices have already plummeted on the retail marketplace. It’s not something we would ever buy because they’re not old, but it is something that we have to be careful of, and I think people have to be careful of. I have heard of jewelers that are buying low quality synthetic diamonds. They're buying a round brilliant and they’re recutting it to European standard because they have inclusions and might have some off color, then they're putting them in an old mounting. People that buy scrap end up with lots and lots of mountings, and sometimes they just resell them on the secondary market through dealers. So, here you have the possibility of someone setting a synthetic diamond recut as an antique diamond into an old mounting, so buyer beware.
That's one of my dilemmas, too, that I have to be very careful about. I would never want to buy that. That's when the microscope comes in handy, and that's when we use outside laboratories like the Gemological Institute of America to check the stones before we buy them, just to make sure they are correct. In our laboratory, we don't have all the equipment necessary to confirm that it is 100% synthetic or not. We have separation techniques, but a larger laboratory is able to do a lot more than we can.
Sharon: A lot of these lab-grown diamonds have inscriptions and numbers or something that identifies it. Do you look for anything like that?
Suzanne: If the GIA has looked at that diamond, they always inscribe them. But a diamond cutter can polish that off in a matter of 10 minutes. If you do see it, great, but it's not something that we've even seen. We don't buy round brilliant-cut diamonds. We've never bought round brilliant-cut diamonds. That's not what we buy and sell. Because we specialize in the older ones, like I said, I'm very careful about what I buy and I'm on the lookout for these supposed recuts.
We know they're out there for smaller diamonds because we see them in reproductions, the European cuts and single cuts. Primarily the European cuts are cut with what we call an open culet. Instead of coming to a point on the bottom, they have a facet there, and the facets in the contemporary cuts for small diamonds have a really big open facet. That's a generalization, but it's one of those things. If you see all the other characteristics that make you think it's not an old ring and you see those stones and they're perfectly calibrated, you can kind of say, “Yes, that's a reproduction, and this is why.”
Sharon: Do you or people who work at the store go out to trade shows or antique jewelry shows and look for merchandise to resell?
Suzanne: That's one of the things I do. Most of the jewelry that we buy and sell comes right in our door. People send me a picture of it and we strike up a conversation, and they mail it to us or send it FedEx or however we decide they're going to ship it for our consideration so we can see it in person. I do not buy anything unless I see it in person.
Another really good reason to go to trade shows is to do price research. I go to Tucson Gem and Mineral Show every year because the prices and availability of different gems change. It changes from year to year, and if you're buying a beautiful old sapphire, you want to make sure you're paying the right price for it, especially today as prices have gone up significantly, especially in emeralds, rubies and sapphires.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lionel Geneste
Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated.
Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends.
Additional Resources
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. Welcome back.
Let’s say people haven't seen the lines of these jewels or the independent jewelers that you represent. Do they say, “Oh, I haven't seen this. I want it for my store”?
Lionel: Right. They do that. Everybody has access to everything pretty much now, with Instagram or even stores posting on their websites. I tend to have a collection or a certain number of pieces with me, and then I distribute it amongst the stores I work with. I still give the list of everything I have within the U.S. So, if a client has seen something and it's not within their store, I will send it to them to present to the client. It's very interesting. Once the client knows the brand, they really go for it. They dig into the Instagram to see other pieces. I think you have to be very fluid and flexible, and you have to be able to move around your jewelry if you want to accommodate your plan.
Sharon: What are the first things you advise people, your new clients, on? Is it to get involved with social media?
Lionel: I know we all hear the stories of people selling off Instagram. I think the brick and mortar is still—at a certain level, we're talking about jewelry. It’s different below $8,000. It's very rare when someone buys it from a website. Even a website like Moda Operandi, for example, if there is a piece—
Sharon: Which one?
Lionel: Moda Operandi. It's a website that was launched on the idea of doing trunk shows on there. For example, they will very often ask for the piece to be sent so they can show it to their clients. It's rare that they buy it directly off the website. I think for pieces that are $500 to $2,000, maybe $3,000, but above a certain price, the clients want to see it, feel it.
Sharon: And touch it. When you look for new clients, what do you look for? What would you consider new? Would you consider if the way they make it is new?
Lionel: There are there a few things. If I take them, for example, Mike Joseph is very interesting. He has great technique. The jewelry is going to be well made. He made this entire collection of flowers in titanium, but he used the reverse side of titanium to have it as a matte finish, as opposed to a very glossy one. I think with this collection, when he was at couture, he won two prizes. So, I think he is both innovative and has great technique.
Vishal, I like his take on traditional Indian jewelry, which has a lot of gold and stones, but he makes it much more sleek. The thing is not to see the metal. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the portrait cut.
Sharon: No, I’m not.
Lionel: The portrait cut is a slab of diamond. It's the Maharaja who built the Taj Mahal who actually asked his jeweler to do this type of slab of diamonds to put on top of their portraits so it would bring a shine to the miniature. So, it's a technique, and Vishal does rings and earrings. I think that's an interesting new way. I'm always looking for people who bring something new to the table.
Sharon: You mentioned the perspective. How could their perspective be new? When you talk to other art jewelers, sometimes you look at a piece and it looks normal, then they tell you the stories behind it and you understand it better.
Lionel: True. You can always try to understand the story. When you see Vishal make some of these pieces, I think you almost don't need the explanation. You see that there is something new there. I'm not saying it's wrong to try to have the story behind it, but I kind of like when—I’ve had numerous jewelers come in. They're coming to me and showing me things, and the thing I hear the most is, “I couldn't find this on the market.” And I look at the pieces, and I'm like, “I can bring you in 10 stores when there's exactly the same thing.” And I think, “No.”
Sharon: So it's their technique with the materials they use.
Lionel: The technique, the material, the inspiration. With Vishal it’s the reinterpretation of traditional Indian jewelry, but it's still very modern and light. Sylvie has more inspiration from literature or drawings. She goes to museums to find her inspiration.
Sharon: I was just thinking, do you represent people who are goldsmiths themselves making the jewelry, as opposed to them designing it and they have a goldsmith make it?
Lionel: Mike and Vishal have their own factories, so they are really following from the beginning, from the start. Sylvie has an atelier. She draws.
Sharon: Were you a maker of jewelry?
Lionel: No. Never. I’ve always liked jewelry, but I was never a jewelry maker.
Sharon: Have you learned over the years how something is made?
Lionel: Yes. I've learned more about the stones. I’ve learned more about the techniques. It's important to sell something, as you said earlier, to bring the most information. People are really curious today about how it’s made and the story behind it.
Sharon: No matter who your client is, are they interested in the way it's made? Do they ask you questions?
Lionel: There are different profiles. People who just respond to the look of it are not curious, and it depends on the jewelry itself. With Vishal, because of this new way and this new cut of diamond, people are asking. It's always interesting to get the background on it because there is a new historical background. Mike, for example, with his flowers connection, people were really intrigued by the use of titanium and how it was not used traditionally. So, yes, you get questions on that.
Sharon: How often do you see something new that you haven't seen before? Is it once a year?
Lionel: It's rare, actually, when you see people who are bringing something really new, a new proposal. Some people are doing stuff in a great way. Not everything has to be groundbreaking, and I get that. I go to couture every year, so I kind of scout, but just for myself. I like to see what's going on. That's not where I'm going to have a new client or anything. It's interesting to me to see what's new. Sometimes I see someone, and I refer them to all the stores, saying, “You should go and see that brand. It’s really cool. It's new.”
Sharon: Do you advise a store to go look at the different jewelry?
Lionel: Yeah, I would, even if I don’t work with them. I think stores appreciate that I do that. I think the one thing I'm known for is taking on brands that are different and unique. When I point out someone that I think is great, they will listen.
Sharon: Do you only work with people who work in gold or emeralds? You mentioned John Hardy. He only works in silver.
Lionel: No. For John Hardy, I went for the one-of-a-kind collection that was very stone oriented. No, I don't. The next big thing I did, I worked with Hearts on Fire, which was kind of relaunching and just hired a new designer. That was very interesting, to work with a big company. The idea of bringing this new designer on and kind of starting from scratch was an interesting thing. We worked on opening different stores and more classic, more bridal. That was an interesting strategy to implement.
Sharon: Did you advise them of a designer or did you walk in and they introduced you to a new designer?
Lionel: They already had the designer in mind, so we looked at the collection. They asked me about their archive and what I thought they should bring back on. I think my background with fashion and jewelry always interests people because they know I still have a foot in the fashion industry in a way.
Sharon: If somebody is in the fashion industry now, can they segue? How can they segue to doing what you're doing if they got tired of fashion?
Lionel: I think I know people who did the transition from fashion to jewelry. In the end, it’s the same actors. In the press and the stores, it's the same people, except for the jewelry stores. But if you talk about all the concept stores that carry jewelry as well, it's easy to do. It's the same work, basically.
Sharon: So, they wouldn't be getting away from that. Do you do pop-ups? They have become popular here.
Lionel: They do. I don't necessarily do pop-ups. They call it differently. For example, Vishal did something at Bergdorf called the Residency. We were in for three months, and it was very successful. It is now going to be permanent for Vishal. We’ll be at Bergdorf all the time.
I think the model of trunk shows is a bit overused. It's kind of difficult to make typical trunk shows today. Again, in a certain world, once you’re at a certain price point, some stores are doing a lot of them, and it's the same people that you're soliciting over and over. There's only so much you can do.
Sharon: With Vishal, what do you consider successful? You said he was successful in this residency. Was that Vishal?
Lionel: Vishal. The brand is called VAK.
Sharon: What was successful? What was the purpose of the residency?
Lionel: The jewelry is very well-made. It's a beautiful product and not terribly expensive. I think the proposal is that the value is great, and it was new. It's a new look. The salespeople were excited about it, and I think they really reached out to their clients. That's what made it successful in the end.
Sharon: You say now he's there permanently.
Lionel: Yes.
Sharon: He has what, a cabinet?
Lionel: Yeah, a vitrine. There’s a vitrine now in the salon.
Sharon: Do you ever have to pay to have prominence?
Lionel: No.
Sharon: What are your favorite things to sell?
Lionel: I like two things. I like rings, and I like earrings. Sylvie Corbelin has a quote that I always liked. She’ll say that earrings are a gift for the other. You don't see it on yourself, but it's the people who see you, see the earrings. My mother, for example, would never go out without earrings. She would put on a pair of earrings to match, and it was for her to feel dressed. She didn’t feel that she was dressed if she was not wearing earrings. And I like big cocktail rings.
Sharon: What kind of jewelry do you like for men? Do you like bracelets or necklaces?
Lionel: I do like bracelets for men or a nice pinky ring, I guess.
Sharon: I was surprised. I went out to lunch with somebody who had what I consider a fabulous necklace, but I would never consider it for a man. He got so many comments on it.
Lionel: I’m sure. A lot of guys now are buying diamond pieces. I think there’s a way to wear it that’s chic.
Sharon: How long have you been in the jewelry business?
Lionel: 18 years.
Sharon: It's a long time. What changes have you seen over that time?
Lionel: A lot of jewelry coming. A lot more jewelry.
Sharon: Really?
Lionel: Yeah. You see all the brands. Now the big trend—I was just saying yesterday, Prada is launching fine jewelry. Saint Laurent has launched fine jewelry. There’s Dolce & Gabbana, Gucci. Everybody's betting on jewelry being the moneymaker. I think the biggest growth we can see right now is men's. Men are buying jewelry.
Sharon: Would you say there are a lot more independent jewelers today than there were?
Lionel: Not only independent, but also all the houses are launching their own lines. Clothing houses, like Prada is launching a line. Saint Laurent is launching a line. Dior did it 20 years ago, but everybody's hopping on the jewelry train.
Sharon: Why do you think that is?
Lionel: I think there is a real interest again for jewelry. A wider interest than just buying, but as an investment. I think also during Covid, jewelry kind of proved to be Covid-proof. I think a lot of people got the idea that jewelry was the next big thing, because it's true that 2021 was an extraordinary year for jewelry. However, I don't think it's really a trend. I think it was at the moment, and we've seen since that the numbers have been down. The money that women would put in clothes and handbags and shoes, they were not going out, so that money went to jewelry, which was great. But I think it was instant. It was not necessarily a trend.
Sharon: Did your business go up because of Covid?
Lionel: Huge. We saw a huge difference.
Sharon And you've seen it go down or be flat?
Lionel: Go down and then flat. But go down, definitely.
Sharon: When you take on new clients, do they have to be making a certain amount? What do they have to have? What criteria do you use?
Lionel: Well, yes, I make sure they have enough finance to launch a business and to make it start. First of all, you need to have at least three or four years in front of you. There's no instant success. However, I'm always conservative in their growth. I'm not going to ask them to put out a lot of pieces. I think it's always about opening two or three key stores that are generating enough buzz as marketing, if you will, to help grow. But try not to overflow the market.
Sharon: What if they’re independent and making things you usually don’t represent, but you think there's something there, an innovation or a passion? Maybe they make pieces that sell for $3,000 or $5,000. That's their niche. Would you take somebody like them on?
Lionel: Yeah, I do. All the jewelers I work with, the price point starts at $5,000, $6,000.
Sharon: I won't even ask you how much it goes up to. Thank you so much for being here today.
Lionel: Thank you.
Sharon: I feel like I roped you in from a plane ride or something.
Lionel: No, no. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me.
Sharon: Thank you for being here.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lionel Geneste
Lionel Geneste is a fashion and luxury industry veteran, having worked for John Hardy, Givenchy, Catherine Malandrino and Randolph Duke in various capacities, from global marketing to communications and merchandising. He is also the founder of the gift-giving service b.Sophisticated.
Born in Tehran to French parents, Geneste grew up as a modern nomad: Cairo, Istanbul, Lagos, Beirut, Paris are just a few places he once called home. And so he acquired an eclectic eye, at an early age, for the refined and urbane—only further encouraged by his clotheshorse mother and her like-minded friends.
Additional Resources
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
How does an independent jewelry brand get noticed? For some lucky jewelers, the secret is Lionel Geneste. Lionel is a jewelry strategist and advisor who has launched iconic brands, shown new collections at Paris couture week, and gotten small jewelry artists into top stores. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the jewelry industry compares to the fashion industry; the trends, opportunities and challenges jewelers are facing today; and how he chooses his clients (and why he has to believe in their work). Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.
Today, I'm talking with Lionel Geneste. He's an independent strategist in the jewelry industry. He does this after 15 years in fashion, so he knows fashion and jewelry. He's multi-lingual, and he represents many people abroad in the U.S., which is very, very unusual.
In fact, I met him through an independent jeweler, and I thought he had such an interesting background I wanted to talk to him more. Lionel, welcome to the program.
Lionel: Sharon, good morning. Thank you for having me.
Sharon: I'm really glad to have you. How did you come into this business?
Lionel: Well, I was in the fashion industry, then a friend of mine was taking over John Hardy. We're talking about 2006 or 2007. They were launching a one-of-a-kind collection, and they brought me on board to launch that collection and to develop it and then basically to do all the PR for John Hardy in general.
Sharon: I'm not familiar with John Hardy. Is it fashion? Go ahead.
Lionel: John Hardy is this company that does mostly silver. They're based in Bali. All their ateliers are in Bali and they have a big office in New York. John Hardy himself wanted to do a collection for his wife, which would be only one of a kind. That’s when we started that collection called Cinta, which means love in Balinese. People were noticing these rings, and the people from Neiman Marcus noticed them and asked if we could develop them into a full collection, which we did. I’d been more in fashion, in the couture world, and I thought I could do something. Basically, the ladies that were willing to wait for four months for a dress are also willing to have one-of-a-kind jewelry or even preorder them.
Sharon: You know, when you tell me who it is, I remember who John Hardy is, but I haven't seen his jewelry for a while. It's around. So, those are your clients? Are they mostly women? Do you represent any men?
Lionel: Yeah. These were the clients. The idea at the beginning, when I developed it, is I would do dinners in Paris during the couture shows, and we would present the jewelry. That was pretty much how it all started. If you look at it now, all the jewelry houses are doing presentations during the couture shows. A couple of weeks ago it was in Paris and everybody from Boucheron, Dior etc., presented their collection. It’s on the same calendar.
From then on, when I left John Hardy, I started a company with a business partner. The idea was that we were giving our clients not only the PR aspect and marketing, but also the business, because I was well versed in the business side as well. It was a kind of a one stop shop.
Sharon: I'm not familiar with the couture shows. Does the jewelry have a separate presentation?
Lionel: Yeah. The couture shows, it’s like when the houses like Valentino, Dior, Chanel, it’s all their shows that are only one of a kind. There are very strict rules that are enacted by the Chambre de Commerce in Paris. You have to have a number of atelier, you have to have a number of people working in the atelier, it's all handmade, etc.
There was a parallel with the ladies buying those clothes that are much more expensive than ready to wear and the jewelry industry, and I think everybody made the same link between those. Now, these shows are every year in January and July. The houses like Boucheron, Chanel, Chaumet, all of them hold presentations and invite the press, but also invite clients at the same time.
Sharon: So, they show their most expensive jewelry.
Lionel: Yes. It’s really the high jewelry collections that are shown there.
Sharon: Is there somebody showing them, presenting them, or is it just come and look and see?
Lionel: No, they are usually elaborate with more and more, actually. Everything is an experience. More and more they're doing elaborate dinners. For example, Boucheron at the Place Vendôme has dedicated the last floor to a big dining room, and there's also a suite. The best clients can come stay at Boucheron and stay in the building. The view on Place Vendôme is beautiful. So, now it's more a presentation with the designer himself or herself inviting their best customer, or hoping to get the best customer.
Sharon: Do you invite these customers?
Lionel: I used to do that a lot. I haven't done it in a year. Usually, I work with younger designers or independent and smaller designers, so I don't have the same budget. But usually what I do is I find a new, typical French bistro. I used to do it the night before the shows to make it something very informal, but still presenting the collection in a different format.
Sharon: Is that how people found you? They come to these dinners?
Lionel: When we talk about clients, there are two different kinds of clients. There are my clients who are the jewelers that I represent, and then I'm talking about clients who are the people who buy the jewelry. Basically, it's word of mouth. When I work with jewelers, some stores recommend me to other brands. Some clients know about someone who's launching a new brand and they refer me. That's really where I enter the competition. I make a proposal, and it’s more about that and referrals.
Sharon: Do you advise the high-end buyers of jewelry? Do you advise them? You say you have two kinds of clients.
Lionel: Yeah, I have some clients that are collectors. Not everyone is always looking for newness or paying attention to that. So, yes, I do advise them on what I think is a young designer that’s upcoming, and if they're serious about their collection, I think they should have a piece of that person in their collection. I launched Emmanuel Tarpin, for example, and at the time everybody wanted his earrings to be part of their collection.
Sharon: Who did you say?
Lionel: Emmanuel Tarpin. He's been having a lot of press lately. He's launched a collection of orchids. I don't work with them anymore, but I launched him at the beginning.
Sharon: Do you have to like the people that you work with?
Lionel: Absolutely. I do have to like the product. I couldn't sell something that I don't believe in.
Sharon: Do you ever work with men? Do they come to you for advice?
Lionel: They do. However, I find most men—no, I do, actually. I have some men that come, or they are strongly recommended by their wives. A lot of my clients are women who buy for themselves.
Sharon: Okay, so they find out about you through word of mouth, or do you advertise?
Lionel: But also, I do work with stores. Some of my jewelers are in stores such as Just One Eye in Los Angeles, Cayen in Carmel, Mayfair Rocks in East Hampton. I choose strategically the partnerships and in places where I know we're going to find the right client.
Sharon: I bet your clients, they’re abroad and you represent them in the states.
Lionel: Yes. Some of them I represent worldwide. I represent them also in Europe, in London and Paris. At the moment for my clients, I work with Sylvie Corbelin. That's how we met, you and I. Sylvie is based in Paris. I work with a brand that’s new-ish called Mike Joseph, and it was a big success at couture last year. He is based in Bangkok. Then I represent Vishal Anil Kothari, who is based in Mumbai. It's kind of a take on traditional Indian jewelry but with a much lighter frame. They use portrait-cut diamonds, emeralds.
Sharon: Do people find out about you? It seems like everybody is not finding out about you through shows or their friends.
Lionel: You know, friends, clients, stores, owners. They see how I work with them and recommend me to other people. I have younger friends in the industry that just started their business and ask me for advice. They recommend me or hire me.
Sharon: You travel a lot because you have addresses in New York, L.A., Paris.
Lionel: I was based in New York for 20 years. I moved to L.A. six years ago. I still go to New York quite often.
Sharon: But you were born in Paris or in France?
Lionel: I'm French. My parents traveled a lot, so I was born a bit by accident in Tehran, in Iran. But I'm French. I studied in France.
Sharon: Do you feel stretched? When I try and get hold of you, I wonder where in the world you’re going to be reading this or calling from.
Lionel: No, I like traveling. I think it's interesting. I find it very interesting to meet the clients. You were asking me earlier about feedback and if I give the designer I work with advice. I don't give them advice. I think they all have a strong point of view and they are not influenced by trends. However, I do give them feedback from clients. I think it's always interesting to see. Do they find the jewelry comfortable? Are the earrings too heavy? It's always interesting to see.
When you work for a designer, for a woman like Sylvie, Sylvie wears her own jewelry, so she knows if it's comfortable or not. That's always interesting. Mike Joseph tells me that he always has his sister try jewelry on and even live in it for a few days before he puts it in production.
Sharon: Do they tell you if it's too heavy?
Lionel: Sometimes they do. They do give feedback. Yesterday we were presenting some new sketches to a store, and some stones were kind of sticking out. The first question the store manager asked was, “Is it going to snag clothes?” The answer is they had to remake that and polish the edges so it would not catch on clothes.
Sharon: You were presenting sketches of the jewelry?
Lionel: Yes. I was showing jewelry to a store, showing the new collection. Kind of a preview of what we're going to do for couture. I wanted to get a sense. It's always interesting. You were asking me when I take on the client, do I have to like it? I do have to like it, but I also usually show it to one or two editors that I trust or a few store owners to see what their reaction is to it as well. It can’t be only my personal things, so it's always interesting to hear what other people have said.
Sharon: Do magazine fashion editors come to you to find jewelry?
Lionel: Yes, they do. They’ll ask me what I have, if I have anything new and interesting. I do like to work with more individuals. I always try to bring something interesting. You were asking how I choose the designers I work with. It's difficult today to find people who really bring something new, so I'm always looking for that. Someone who has already come up with a new invention or brings something to the world of jewelry.
Sharon: Do you work with them to expand? They’re independent and they grow. Do you help them when they launch a chain? Do they outgrow you, let's say?
Lionel: No, and I actually, I do like that. I like to be at the beginning, helping them find everything from their voice, how to place themselves, where to place them within the market, price point. What exists already on the market? After I work with them for five or six years, and if they really grow, I like to push them out and hire a real agent.
In general, the brands I work with, we try to keep it exclusive, to not have it in every store. It's very organic. We're not pushing. With strategy, I prefer to go within stores where you're going in what we call deep, like bringing 15 to 20 pieces to really show the depth of the work of the designer, rather than just five or six pieces just to have a presence, which to me doesn't really serve the purpose.
Sharon: Do you advise the jewelry stores you're bringing jewelry to on how to display it or things like that?
Lionel: Yeah. Some stores have a strong vision about how to do it, but yes, I will. I would ask them to take on some pieces that I find are really representative of the work, and if the pieces are not there I think it doesn't give the right image of the designer. I would try to push, even if they could be slightly reluctant in the beginning. I think some key pieces are important. Going back to Sylvie, snakes are an important part of her design. If I go into a store, I need to have some of these pieces because they're an important symbol of hers.
Sharon: So, you would advise the store owner how to show it off, how to get it right.
Lionel: Yes. Right.
Sharon: What skills do you think you need to be successful? If somebody wants to do what you do, how would they be successful?
Lionel: When you work with designers, it’s part business, part therapy. I think you really have to listen to them. That’s the important part, because you can't be totally at odds with what they're feeling and pushing for something they don't believe in. It's a dance, and it’s about listening to each other. I think the relationship with the designer is really what makes it successful. Mike Joseph, Vishal, Sylvie, we've been working together for eight years, so we know each other really well now. I think that's important.
Sharon: When you said therapist, what does the therapy involve?
Lionel: Designers, or the good designers, are really artists. You have to listen to what they're saying, what they feel. You have to be careful about bringing the commercial part in. You also have to respect what they're designing. So, it's a dance. Sometimes a feeling of rejection can exist, so you have to work with that as well.
Sharon: You were in fashion first. What kind of experience does someone in fashion have to have to go into jewelry?
Lionel: It’s little bit the same world, I think. You have to have a sense of aesthetics, and you have to like it as well. You don’t go into jewelry if you don’t like jewelry. But the transition from fashion to jewelry is pretty seamless.
Sharon: Do you see a difference in the fashion world and the jewelry world?
Lionel: I think there used to be a bigger difference in the sense that fashion was very fast-paced and jewelry was not. But I think jewelry is getting into that pace as well, where the designer wants to present two collections a year. So, we're getting a bit on the fashion calendar in that sense.
Sharon: The jewelers, if they have a presentation, I have a visual picture of them lugging their cases and setting up.
Lionel: Right. I think now people are presenting two collections a year. That used to be a fashion thing. I'm not sure it's the way to go. I don’t think you sell jewelry in the same way you sell clothes. It takes more time. I’ve witnessed clients being disappointed because there was a collection they liked, and then the collection is gone. I think that doesn't leave enough time for people to act upon something they don't necessarily want to buy within a month or two.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marta Costa Reis
Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That’s the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year’s Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year’s theme is so timely; how Portugal’s turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it. Welcome back.
Sharon: Are you a maker?
Marta: I am a maker.
Sharon: Have you been developing jewelry that's linked to power?
Marta: Actually, not so much. My themes are a bit more, maybe spiritual is the word. I don't know. I'm interested in themes that revolve around time and our connection to time and what is behind us. It's quite different, but this was already the theme of the first biennial. We have to move on and have different themes. Of course, I couldn't do work myself for this biennial. I don't have the time or the mindset to be making at this time. I'm fully focused on the biennial.
Sharon: I was noticing you have several curators. How did you choose the curators of different seminars and exhibits? How did you choose them?
Marta: I can speak, for instance, about the main show that is called Madrugada, daybreak. The main title. I wanted someone that was not a Portuguese person so we don't stay too closed in our own bubble. I wanted someone from another country but who could understand what happened here. Mònica Gaspar is Spanish. Besides being an amazing intellectual and teacher and writer and very knowledgeable about jewelry and design, being Spanish, they had a similar process as ours. They also had a very long dictatorship, and at almost the same time as we did, they became a democracy. So, she could understand more or less the same events. That was important, to have someone with that experience of changing from the dictatorship into a democracy.
We spoke last year Schmuck in Munich about it, and she was interested, but she has a lot of work, so it took a little while to convince her. It's because we are a team and we can share the work that were able to do it and Mònica is able to do it. Patrícia Domingues is the other curator. She's Portuguese, but she's younger than we are.
Sharon: Who is that?
Marta: Patrícia Domingues. She recently had a show in Brooklyn. I can write it down for you later, maybe afterwards.
Sharon: Okay. Patrícia. How do you spell the last name?
Marta: Domingues, D-O-M-I-N-G-U-E-S. I think I got it right. I know how to spell it, but sometimes saying it in English is more difficult. She has been living abroad for a quite a long time, but she's Portuguese, so she has a perspective that is both an insider but also an outsider. I wanted that very much, someone that is not closed here in our little bubble. She's she recently finished a Ph.D. She's younger. She's very much in contact with everything that is being reflected about jewelry in the world right now.
I think they are amazing curators, and they bring a lot to the biennial and to the show. I am there as well not only because I enjoy it, but I wanted to help out with the work, sending the invitations and keeping track of everything so that everything goes smoothly. We are a very small organization, and we do a lot of it ourselves on a voluntary basis. We have to take different jobs in this process. But I'm happy they joined us, and I'm very happy to be working with them on this show.
Sharon: Are you the main curator? Is there a main curator who chose the other ones?
Marta: Yes, that is me. I am the main curator for the whole biennial. Then there is a team and we discuss. We basically invited Mònica and Patrícia and they agreed. The other shows, for instance, the tiara show is curated by Catarina Silva, who is also the head of the jewelry department at ARCO. I'm also taking care of, it's called Jewels for Democracy. That's the show that I mentioned about the women being honored. There's a lot of people involved, but it's quite smooth.
Sharon: Somebody has to keep everything moving and coordinate. How are you promoting the show in Portugal and in general? Anything?
Marta: We will start promoting now. We have the two shows in April. We did the launch last November for the whole biennial. We try to be active on Instagram. Not so much on Facebook, but mainly on Instagram. We will start a more intense campaign. We have a professional communications person that will take care of this. We will start a more intense communication campaign very soon. We have it in two parts, so we are focusing on April. Then we'll have the other show in May, and then it's the end of June. It will be in different parts.
We will also announce the masterclasses very soon. I haven't mentioned the masterclasses yet. That's what I was forgetting. There will be two masterclasses, one with Lin Cheung and one with Manuel Vilhena from the 22nd to 26th of June. We'll open the registrations very, very soon. This week we'll open the registration. You'll start seeing more about it, and we will promote it in different venues. I did an interview for SMCK Magazine, the European magazine about jewelry. It just came out in their last issue. I did it in October or at the end of September, but it just came out. So, we're doing a number of things, but it will become more intense at the end of this month, in February. We will reinforce the communication and the advertising.
Sharon: How long are the shows in the biennial? Does it go through the summer, or is there an ending point or beginning point?
Marta: The main thing is that in the last week of June, everything will be open. The shows in the Royal Treasure Museum, the shows at the Design Museum, the colloquium, the schools, the masterclasses, the students, the galleries. Everything will be open in that last week of June. That will be the right moment to come to Lisbon. That's when we are concentrating everything. On the 30th of June, the two shows at the Royal Treasure Museum will close, but the show at MUDE, the Design Museum, will continue until the end of September, so it will go through the summer.
Sharon: Why do you call it a masterclass? Who's teaching it and what are they teaching?
Marta: It's Lin Cheung. She's from the UK. Manuel Vilhena is a quite well-known Portuguese artist and amazing teacher as well. It's five days. I'm not sure how to differentiate between a workshop and a masterclass, which I guess is a workshop with the masters, and they are masters. They are some of the top teachers I know. I did a small course with Manuel Vilhena a few years ago. Not yet with Lin, but I know they are amazing teachers. I'm sure everyone who comes will enjoy it.
Last biennial, we also had masterclasses, one with Caroline Broadhead and the other with Christoph Zellweger. They are very interesting moments of sharing and learning and deepening your understanding of your own work, not just for students but for artists in every moment of their careers. It's super interesting to be able to have these few days to stop and look at what you do, what you want to do next with very good teachers like they are. This can be a very special moment. For a long time, I did as many workshops and masterclasses as I could, and it was so great.
Sharon: The people who teach the classes, do they vet the people coming, or can anybody who wants to come into the class and take it?
Marta: There is a small vetting process, but basically you send a CV and your motivation, not even a letter, but a few words of why you want to do these classes. That will be the vetting process. But it's pretty much open to everyone in every stage of their education or career.
Sharon: The exhibits and going to galleries, are there charges? Are they free? What is the story with that?
Marta: To visit the galleries, some of the venues will be free. The museums have tickets, but most of the venues that are not museums are free.
Sharon: MUDE is the design museum that just opened.
Marta: Yes. It opened a while ago, but it was under renovation for a long time. It's the only museum in Portugal that has a contemporary jewelry collection. They have been building a collection, and hopefully it will grow. They also have lots of fashion and all kinds of product and graphic design. It's a very interesting collection, very interesting building. They haven't opened yet. We will be one of the first shows. The first temporary show after the renovation will be this one.
Sharon: Wow.
Marta: Yeah, it's exciting.
Sharon: Do you think there'll be a triennial?
Marta: Hopefully we'll do the next one. I have a few ideas. I cannot say yet, but yes. I like to start thinking about the next one while still doing this one. If the team wants to, if we get the support we need, for sure there will be another one.
Sharon: Now for somebody who wants—I started thinking of myself and other people, but members of the audience, if there somebody who wants to come alone, who wants to come to Portugal alone to see the exhibit, where do they stay? You said the end of June is the best time to come.
Marta: The last week of June, yes.
Sharon: Okay, and they stay at a hotel?
Marta: Lisbon is a wonderful, very safe and, I think, easy to navigate town. We don't have a special hotel to recommend, but you can reach out to us and we can help give some suggestions. Stay in a hotel, you will get your program, tell us you are coming. We will try as much as possible to help you out. If you want to organize a group, we can help organize the group as well. But it's easy. Uber goes everywhere, taxis go everywhere, you have the subway, you have buses, you can walk, bike. There are all kinds of ways to travel in town. It's not very big. We're not always able to do it, but many of the events, the venues, will be quite close. There will be a few groups in different locations, but you can visit a lot of things by foot that will be very close by. I think it will be very easy to come even if you're alone.
Sharon: Okay. As long as I have you, tell us about the market for art jewelry in Portugal. Has it grown? Do people care about it?
Marta: I think like almost everywhere else, it's a specialist market that certain people enjoy a lot. Actually, it's not very known by everyone. Most people, when you say jewelry, think about more traditional, more commercial jewelry. Like everywhere, there's a way to go, I think. But there is a group of interested people. There's certainly very interesting artists.
We've had contemporary jewelry, art jewelry being done and presented in shows here since the 60s. We've had a school, the specialized school in Lisbon, since the 70s. We have two galleries. One of them just turned 25. The other I think even more, maybe 30. So, we have had the market for a long time. Now, of course, it's a little bit slow, but I think that happened everywhere with the recent crisis. But it exists, and it's been here for over 40 years, 50 years now. Like everywhere else, it's a continuous work, but people love it. Many people love it. I think it will never stop being interesting and important to a number of us.
Sharon: Okay. Go ahead, if there's anything else you wanted to say.
Marta: About the market, that's basically it. It's an issue, and also what we wanted to promote. That's why we did the biennial, to help people see there's a lot more jewelry than the ones they're used to in the traditional way. That's part of the reason we're doing this, not just for ourselves or the ones who already know what jewelry content actually is all about, but for the ones who don't and might be interested in knowing. Getting the beautiful works that are done out there and reaching out to more people, that's it.
Sharon: Okay. I'm trying to read my handwriting here. I was reading your information last night again, but let's see. The cost, the people and most of the stuff is in English as well as Portuguese.
Marta: Yes, everything will be translated. The colloquium will be in English. Everyone will speak English at the colloquium, and in the museums you will have English. Everything will be translated. Our website is translated. Our Instagram, not all is translated, but because it translates automatically, it's not even an issue anymore, I think. But yes, usually you will always have Portuguese and English, except the colloquium that will be fully in English. It will be quite easy for everyone. English is indeed the common language for almost everything, so we just assume. In Portugal everyone speaks English more or less.
Sharon: Do they learn it in school?
Marta: Yes, yes. In school, movies. The movies are not dubbed. They are in the original English, so we are used to listening to English from when we are very young. It becomes a very common language.
Sharon: That's interesting. We'll have the Instagram and the website listed when we post this.
Marta: Okay, great. Going back, if people want to travel to Lisbon, if they by chance come before June, they will still have very interesting things to see besides the program of the biennial. There are the galleries that will have shows in Lisbon. There's Galeria Reverso and Galeria Tereza Seabra. They both will have shows as they usually have. In April and May, if you visit Portugal, come, because there will be jewelry to be seen. If you plan to come for the biennial, June is a very exciting month. The city is beautiful. It's when there are flowers, there's green, there's the sun. People are just happy in June, everywhere I guess.
Sharon: How is the weather then? Is it hot?
Marta: No, it's warm. June is still quite good. End of July, August is maybe a bit too much, but June usually is still quite good. I won't say the number because I would say it in Celsius so it doesn't mean anything, and I don't know how to say it in Fahrenheit. I won't say a number for the temperature, but it's really nice. The best thing is that the evenings are warm. That's the best, when in the evening it's still warm and it's nice outside. That's June.
Sharon: Are there a lot of people in the streets still when it's warm outside and warm in the evenings? I know you don't live in the center.
Marta: Yes, people will go out. As I said, in June you have traditional parties. The patron saint of Lisbon, his day is in June. From there, you have many, many parties. People go outside, they will eat outside. There will be concerts outside, there will be movies outside, everything will be outside and it will be very nice.
Sharon: I hope that we can all go. I have here the official name is the Second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial, right?
Marta: Exactly.
Sharon: What is the theme once more again?
Marta: The theme is political jewelry and jewelry of power.
Sharon: Okay. And PIN is involved with this also? PIN is the art jewelry—
Marta: PIN is the Portuguese Contemporary Jewelry Association, and it's the organizer of the biennial.
Sharon: Reading through this information I was ready to book my flight. It looks wonderful.
Marta: Yes. I'm happy you come. But surely, if people want to come, reach out to us. If you write to us through Instagram, the website, it will be easy to reach out to us, and we will help in any way. If you want to come, we can help make it happen in the easiest way possible for you. We're happy to have you and everyone who wants to come.
Sharon: Well, thank you very much for telling us about it.
Marta: Thank you for having me and helping us tell our story.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marta Costa Reis
Marta Costa Reis started studying jewelry in 2004, as a hobby, in parallel with other professional activities. She dedicated herself fully to this work in 2014. Costa Reis completed the jewelry course at Ar.Co – Centro de Arte e Comunicacção Visual, in Lisbon, and the Advanced Visual Arts Course at the same school, in addition to workshops with renowned teachers including Iris Eichenberg, Ruudt Peters, Lisa Walker, and Eija Mustonen, among others. In addition to being a jewelry artist, Costa Reis teaches jewelry history at Ar.Co, writes about jewelry, and curates exhibitions. She also serves as artistic director of the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial and as a board member of Art Jewelry Forum.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
How does jewelry symbolize power, and where do jewelry and politics intersect? That’s the central question that Marta Costa Reis and her fellow curators, artists and speakers will explore at this year’s Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. Marta joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why this year’s theme is so timely; how Portugal’s turbulent political history influences jewelry today; and how to plan your trip to make the most of the biennial. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week. Today, we're going to be talking about the Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I am talking with Marta Costa Reis, who is going to tell us all about it.
I met Marta about eight to 5 years ago at the first biennial in Lisbon, Portugal. One of the goals was to gather together examples and information about the history of modern Portugal and the jewelry that's associated with it. When we think of Portuguese jewelry, we don't automatically think of art jewelry. But it has a history of more than several decades about the work that's been going on and art jewelry in general. The second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial is coming up this summer in Lisbon. The last one was held in Lisbon, too.
Marta Costa Rice is going to be telling us about this biennial and what to expect this summer in Lisbon. There will be a lot going on in many venues. There is the exhibition at MUDE, which is a very well-known Portuguese design museum. There's an international symposium with people coming from all over the world to discuss the theme of the exhibition, which I'll let Marta tell you about. A lot is taking place at many of the galleries. One of the key exhibits is taking place at the Royal Treasure Museum. But I don't want to steal Marta's spotlight. Today, she'll tell us all about the second Contemporary Jewelry Biennial in Portugal. Marta, welcome to the program.
Marta: Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and for this very nice introduction. So, where should I start? I don't even know. There's so much to tell. I'm currently organizing the second Lisbon Contemporary Jewelry Biennial. I do it as a new chairwoman of PIN, which is a Portuguese contemporary jewelry association.
Sharon: PIN, P-I-N?
Marta: PIN, yes. PIN has existed now for 20 years. It will be 20 years this September. It was created to organize quite a big event. At the time, Cristina Filipe was one of the founders and was the chairwoman for a very long time. Of course, you know her by the Susan Beach Grant. She received the first Susan Beech Grant for Mid-Career Artists, and that allowed us to publish a book which came from Cristina's Ph.D. about Portuguese jewelry, contemporary jewelry in Portugal. That time, when the book was published, that's when she had traveled to Portugal and we met. We had this challenge for ourselves, saying that if we managed to do a good program to present interesting shows, good visits, we could be able to do a biennial. That's its inspiration, this trip, how all this came to happen.
Of course, the timing for the first biennial—we called it the AJF trip. It was like year zero, the pilot episode. The first biennial happened in the middle of the pandemic, so we were never sure that we really would be able to make it happen because there was still a lot of restrictions. But luckily it happened in September 2021, when people were able to travel a little bit. Then we managed to have a huge number of artists and collectors and interesting people. The theme was about the pandemic. It was jewelry of protection and connecting contemporary objects, contemporary jewelry of protection in the 21st century with very old relics and sacred objects that were shown together in an exhibition in a museum here in Lisbon. Of course, we did call it the biennial to force ourselves to do the second one.
Sharon: I wanted to ask, what does biennial mean, literally?
Marta: It's supposed to be every two years. That that's what it means. It's supposed to happen every two years. Of course, it's a little bit more than two years now. It's two years and a half between the first one and the second one. But because we have this idea to always have as a theme for the biennial something that is happening in the world at the moment. The first one was the pandemic. Now in Portugal 2024, we will have this very important event, which is the 50th anniversary of our revolution when we became a democratic country.
I don't know if people are aware that we had an authoritarian regime for 48 years, and it happened in 1974. It was a very smooth revolution. Let's just say that, because it happened without almost any gun being shot. Of course, it took a little while. The Democratic constitution was approved a bit later, but that is the fundamental moment when we became a democratic country or started to become a democratic country. It happened 50 years ago now, so it's really a whole new generation, a whole new world, and we want to celebrate that.
Jewelry, of course, has a lot to do with power or representations of power. There is also in contemporary jewelry a lot of political work. Many artists do work that is political or can be read in a political way. We wanted to consider those issues, jewelry of power and political jewelry. That's basically the idea of how it came about.
Sharon: Why is it called the Carnation Revolution?
Marta: That's an amazing story, actually. It happened because literally a woman that had some red carnations in her hands started to put carnations, the flowers, in the guns of the soldiers. Some of the most famous images of the revolution are soldiers with the flowers in their guns. It represents a lot of things, namely that the guns were not being shot. They were holding flowers. It happened by accident. It's suggested that this lady, apparently one of the soldiers asked her for a cigarette. She said she didn't have cigarettes, but she had a flower, and she put the flower in his gun. And then people started to replicate the gesture. Until today, the red carnation--there were also white carnations, but basically the red carnation is still very much a symbol of that movement, that revolution, and it took the name. For us, thinking about that, the gesture she had is also very much a gesture of adornment, the gesture of adorning that gun with the flower. So, we wanted to pick up on that and what it could mean.
Sharon: How is jewelry linked to power?
Marta: You have that example, for instance, in the Royal Treasure Museum that you mentioned, which shows the jewelry of the national treasure, jewels that belonged to the state—well, to the crown, basically. Some of them were private jewelry worn by kings and queens. Some of them are more royal estate jewelry. Basically, it's that representation of the power that it can show and the time when diamonds and precious stones and even precious metals were not used by everyone. It showed how powerful a person was, how important or how close to the eye of power. It's the idea of a crown or a tiara, of a whole set of diamonds, but also all the objects that you can put on your body, like the jeweled swords and things like that.
Jewelry indeed has a lot to say about power, how you show yourself as a person of power or representing a situation of power, being a king or queen or someone with a very high responsibility. That connection always existed. This museum is brand new. It will be two years ago in June. This jewelry was not accessible. It was not shown for a very long time. It was only in a temporary exhibition, so it's an excellent opportunity to see these pieces that are absolutely incredible. Although many were lost and sold, they're still a very nice collection.
Sharon: So, a biennial can be anything, theoretically. Every 10 years, it could be trucks. It could be jewelry, but it could be a biennial about anything, right?
Marta: We tried to connect it to things that are ongoing in the world at the moment. For 2024, our main motivation with this event was that we knew it would happen in Portugal. There will be a lot of other moments of celebration of democracy, basically. That that's what the celebration is all about. But if you look at the world at large, it's also very topical, this issue and the themes. It's something that people can relate to at the present moment, not just Portuguese. That's what we thought could be interesting, to see how our jewelers, our artists, are connecting to the world at the present and what they have to say about it through their work, through jewelry.
Sharon: How did you get involved in it?
Marta: I don't know. It's probably a personality trait. I like to get involved in things. I like this tendency to be of service to something larger than myself. I became involved first with PIN because in my previous professional life, I used to—I was not a lawyer, but I studied law, so I worked with law. I started to be involved with PIN about some situations that were happening with laws that were changing that affected jewelry. So, I started to cooperate with them on that issue. Then I was very much involved in AJF's first visit to Lisbon, and then in the organization of the first biennial.
Sharon: AJF means—I want everybody to understand that AJF means Art Jewelry Forum.
Marta: Art Jewelry Forum, yes. So, I was the person helping in Portugal. There were others, but I was one of them. I got very much involved in the first biennial and then Cristina wanted to leave and not do the second one. She was very tired and wanted to move on to something else. I said, "Okay, but we did this biennial. We need to try to do the second one." That's what happened. And I said, "Okay, I'll try to take over and do the second biennial." That's what happened. That's my mission at the moment at this organization, the Portuguese Association for Contemporary Jewelry, to do the second biennial, and from then on let's see how many more we can do.
Sharon: I noticed that she wasn't on the list of speakers. Are you giving any kind of prize or a grant like Cristina received 10 years ago to do her book?
Marta: No. The program is two exhibitions in the Royal Treasure Museum. One of the exhibitions will be contemporary jewelers doing work to honor a woman of their choice that had a role in the democratic transition, so a woman that was especially hurt by the dictatorship or was especially involved in the democracy. Many of them are artists because we also had censorship and artists could not be free in their work. Many of the women the jewelers chose to honor are artists. A few of them even had to leave Portugal and move to other countries to be able to do their work. But not only do we have anonymous women, we have some politicians. We had one of the first women prime ministers in Europe, so she will be honored as well. There are a few other women that people felt needed some recognition or wanted to give them their recognition.
In 1974, when the revolution happened, many of the actors were men because it was done by military men, and all the politicians were men. A few women started showing up afterwards. But before the end of our dictatorship, women had no representation at all in the public space. They were mostly shown as accessories. Good woman, good wife, good cook, but that's all. Only after 1974 did women start to have their own representation as professionals in other things besides being wives. We couldn't even travel to other countries without the husband's permission or have bank accounts or things like that. When I was born, that was still the reality in my country. It's not 200 years ago. It's very, very close to us. That's also why it's important to show those who have not lived through that that an authoritarian regime is a terrible thing. So, we are honoring these women.
We have another show of contemporary tiaras by a contemporary artist that will be shown next to the crown jewels. That will be an interesting contrast. These two shows will open in April. So, from April to the end of June, you can see contemporary jewelry in the Royal Treasure Museum, which will also be a first. It's a very endearing project, and there have been great, great partners.
Then in May, a show by the contemporary artist Teresa Milheiro will open as well. It's sort of an anthological show, but not only. She always had political themes in her work, so that's one of the reasons why she was chosen to do this solo. Then in the last week of June, between 24th and 30th of June, there will be an immensity of shows. The big show at MUDE that is curated by myself, Mònica Gaspar and Patrícia Domingues is an international collective show with artists from many different parts of the world. Not all parts of the world, because in many countries you still don't have a lot of contemporary jewelry. But we're doing our best to have it as broad as possible.
There will be what we call parallel events, which are shows organized by artists, collectives and students that are doing shows at the same time in Lisbon. There's the colloquium with international speakers from many parts of the world. The colloquium will be in English. It will also be accessible online for anyone who wants to stay at home and still be able to accompany that. It will also be about political jewelry and politics and politics of jewelry and power. This will still be the main themes.
There will be a show with schools from different countries, a meeting of the students and then an exhibition. The educational part is very present. I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot of things or there are things I didn't say yet. There will be what you call a jewelry room with galleries from different countries. Galleries are still, and hopefully will be for a long time, a very important part of the jewelry world, so we want them to be present as well and show their artists and their choices. The last week of June will be absolutely filled with contemporary jewelry in Lisbon. Plus it's an amazing month. It's the best month in Lisbon. There are parties on the streets. It's the best.
Sharon: Do the galleries choose what to show that's linked to this theme? What is the official theme?
Marta: There is a title, which is Madrugada. That means daybreak. This title is inspired by a very beautiful poem by a Portuguese poet, Sophia de Mello Breyner. It's very short, but basically it says this is a new dawn after a very long, dark night. It's a poem about the revolution. She loosely calls it a new dawn. This is the theme.
We asked the galleries to bring work that is connected to theme, to political jewelry, and we also asked them to present a Portuguese artist. Some of them already have Portuguese artists in their midst, in their group of selected artists, and some don't. What we want is for galleries to have a look at the national, Portuguese artists, and make their choice. That way, our Portuguese artists get more representation or more presence and maybe a little more representation in other countries.
Sharon: You mentioned the educational piece of the shows and symposia. What do you have planned, and what are the topics? Are they in English?
Marta: They are in English. The symposium is in English. I can give you some examples. We will have, for instance, and this could be interesting for you, the artist Cindi Strauss will speak about themes from the book she published recently on American jewelry in the 60s and 70s and the counterculture. She will be there. We will also have a Brazilian researcher called Dionea Rocha Watt, and she will speak about jewelry of power, like the jewelry that Imelda Marcos owns, or the jewelry from the recent scandal with the former Brazilian President Bolsonaro, who sold some jewelry he received, and other representations and connections between jewelry and power.
But we will also have, for instance, Rosa Maria Mota, who will speak about traditional Portuguese jewelry. It was used by popular woman from the countryside that bought as much gold jewelry as possible as a way to preserve their finances and their power. It's the connection between traditional gold jewelry and women power. Things like that. It's always around politics and policy and power and jewelry. Hopefully it will be very interesting.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
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Transcript:
Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That’s exactly why Gina D’Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gina D'Onofrio
With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management.
Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area.
Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers.
In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services.
She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That’s exactly why Gina D’Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again. Welcome back.
If you become a certain kind of appraiser, let's say real estate or antique jewelry or I'll call it regular jewelry, how do you continue your education in those areas? What do you do if you're a real estate appraiser and you want to be an expert, or an antique expert? What would you do to continue education in that area?
Gina: You mentioned real estate. So, you mean you're appraising houses and all of a sudden you want to appraise antique jewelry?
Sharon: No, if you're in a particular area, is what I mean. You work in jewelry. What do you do to further your education besides going to the conferences, handling the jewelry? Are there other things you can do to further your education in those areas? In that area, I should say.
Gina: If you're working in jewelry, you're basically filling all the educational holes that you might have. When you say you work in jewelry, if you work for a contemporary jeweler, then you need to have more exposure to vintage jewelry. If it's vice versa, maybe you're working with antique and estate jewelry and you're not as exposed to what present day Tiffany and Company and Cartier and Van Cleef & Arpels are doing, then you have to self-educate and gain more exposure to that kind of jewelry.
As a jewelry appraiser, anything can cross your desk. Quite often, I might receive a collection that belongs to somebody, and she may have something that she bought last week and she may have something that her great-grandmother owned and she has inherited. You need to be able to recognize and evaluate and appraise both pieces. So, you do need a very well-rounded education.
Sharon: You raised the point of Cartier and David Webb and the high-end pieces that designers make, but not everything you see is going to be that. As you said, there's the piece that the grandmother passes down. Heritage, I presume, isn't all Cartier. What do you do then? What do you do if a piece comes across your desk and it's not a Cartier or it's not a David Webb? Do you look at a David Webb as the benchmark and then go from there?
Gina: No, you don't, because a piece that has no stamp or signature doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a fine piece. That's where having an understanding of jewelry manufacturing is critical. You do need to gain an education on how a piece of jewelry is made. GIA is teaching a class called jewelry forensics. In that class, they teach appraisers and other members of the industry how to look at a piece and recognize how it was fabricated. Was it made entirely by hand? Was it made by carving a wax and casting it? Was it made via CAD/CAM design and 3D printing? Was made by using a die struck method? These are all different methods of producing a piece of jewelry, and as an appraiser you need to have an education in that so when you're holding that piece of jewelry in your hand, A) you recognize how it was made, and B) you recognize the quality of the workmanship. That plays into the value of the piece.
For example, you might have a piece of jewelry, and you recognize that it was made entirely by hand. A great deal of time and effort has gone into making it, and the workmanship is excellent. Flawless, in fact. That is going to inform you as to what it would cost to replace that piece if your client wants to insure it for another piece that has been made entirely by hand.
Or, you might look at a piece that is mass produced using CAD/CAM and 3D printing, but it's a piece that's not finished very well. It's poorly made, and the setting work is very poor, too. In fact, some of the stones are a little bit loose because they weren't set properly, or perhaps they're not straight in the piece. That's going to tell you that it's a mass-produced piece. If it's not signed, you're going to be looking at other mass-produced pieces of the same type of lower quality in order to determine what it would cost to replace that piece. Understanding production is really important.
Sharon: Can you be an appraiser without having this background of manufacturing and that sort of thing? Could you be an appraiser?
Gina: You can. I'm really sad to say that there is no licensing of jewelry appraisers. There is no regulation, no government regulation. We self-regulate. That's why if you want to become a professional appraiser and you want to be the best appraiser you can be, you should join an organization that gives you excellent education and network with other very experienced appraisers who can help guide you in the right direction to get the education that you need.
Unfortunately, anybody can appraise jewelry and nobody can stop you. As a consumer, it's best to look for an appraiser that has reached the highest level they can possibly attain within an appraisal organization that requires their members to requalify every five years. The International Society of Appraisers has a requalification program. So does the American Society of Appraisers. They do require their members to requalify every five years. Then you have the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers that have different strata of membership, different tiers of membership, so look for an appraiser within that organization that has successfully completed the Certified Master Appraiser program, the CMA, and at the very least is a certified appraiser. Someone who has sat for the exams.
Sharon: What is requalification? Is that a test on paper or a computer, or is it just that you came to class?
Gina: It varies. It depends on which organization. I failed to mention the American Gem Society, I apologize. They also have an Independent Gemologist Appraiser program. For requalification, you have to attend a minimum amount of education every year. You have to prove you have done that. There is also an exam you have to take as well.
Sharon: You answered one of the questions I had, which is what you would ask somebody you want to be an appraiser for you. What would you ask them to know if they're good or not? What should I ask? What would somebody in the public ask if they're looking for an appraiser?
Gina: Yes. Everything that I just told you. Make sure that they have reached the highest designation they can within those appraisal organizations.
Sharon: I took some antique jewelry to an appraiser not knowing that they did all kinds of jewelry, but they weren't an expert in antiques. Was there any way to suss that out in advance?
Gina: That's a great question, Sharon. That's tricky. As I mentioned earlier, I feel that it's difficult to get a formal education in jewelry history today, so you are getting it piecemeal from wherever you can, which is why I developed my courses. There is no way to look at an appraiser and have them prove to you that they are a specialist in antique and period jewelry. Unfortunately, that's something that comes by way of reputation. You may have to ask, "How did you become proficient?" You may have to just ask them to explain that to you. It's a tricky one. As a consumer, I'm not quite sure how that could be proven.
Sharon: What would you suggest the public ask if you want to know if an appraiser is credentialed, a credible appraiser?
Gina: You ask them what level of certification, what designation, they have achieved within their appraisal organization. Are they a member of the ASA, the NAJA, the ISA, the AGS? If they are a member—you could be a member and not attain any education. You could be a candidate member, or you could just simply be a member. Ask them, "What education have you completed with these organizations? Are you designated? What is your designation? What is your experience with antique and period jewelry? Are you proficient with that type of jewelry?" Just outright ask them to show you what their education and designation is.
Most appraisers who have achieved this level of education and designation have spent a great deal of time attaining it and are proud of what they've achieved, and they usually put up on their website for everybody to see. But if they haven't done that, you can ask them for their professional profiles so you can read through what they've achieved, and you can even check it. You can call those appraisal organizations to see if the information you've been provided is true and accurate.
Sharon: I'm thinking about something you said earlier. If somebody says to me, "I don't have a formal education in this, but I've handled a million and one pieces in this era, and I can tell right away if it's fake or not and who made it," what do you say to that?
Gina: That's quite possible. Absolutely. Then that makes them a connoisseur and a specialist in antique and period jewelry. But are they an appraiser? Do they have an education in appraisal report writing? Can they write that appraisal report for you? That's the other part. That's the other side of the coin. That's the other thing they have to have to be an appraiser. Otherwise, they're an expert in that period of jewelry, but they're not necessarily an appraiser.
Sharon: That's interesting. When I thought about being an appraiser myself, it was the report writing that scared me off. That's very detailed and very scientific in a way. Very precise.
Gina: Yes, and that education is something that you can study.
Sharon: Okay. I think I'll pass.
Gina: You almost looked like you were considering it, Sharon.
Sharon: No, I think I've heard too much about the classes for the report writing and how they're pretty onerous, in a in a good way.
Gina: They're fascinating. I highly recommend it. Anyone out there who is writing appraisal reports and doesn't have a foundation in appraisal report writing from one of the major organizations, I really suggest that you go out and get that education. You'll be amazed at what you'll learn. It's going to make you even better at what you do.
Sharon: Why would you say it makes you better at what you do?
Gina: This education is written by appraisers, not just one appraiser, but collaborative groups of appraisers who have been immersed in that profession for many, many years. They have learned the best approaches and the pitfalls. They have studied the government requirements. They may have had a lot of experience in appraising for litigation, and this collective information has been formally put into a course. It's only going to help you as an appraiser. It's going to help you avoid ending up in court or possibly being disqualified as an appraiser for the IRS because you did not follow the proper procedures. If you know what pitfalls to avoid and how to arrive at a more informed opinion of value, it's only going to make your appraisal a better product for the person that's using it.
Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. I keep going back to Antiques Roadshow. They talk about the auction value and the retail value and the insurance value. It drives me crazy because you see the glassy-eyed look in somebody's eyes. I want to say, "Didn't you hear what they said?"
Gina: As an appraiser and as a specialist for an auction house, this is the biggest problem. This is the biggest obstacle for a private individual, understanding that there is not just one value. There are multiple values for the same piece of jewelry. It just depends on the market. It depends on whether it's the auction market, whether it is the liquidation market, or whether it is the retail market or whether it is the antique and estate jewelry market. Is it being sold as a brand-new piece? Is it being sold as a pre-owned piece in a retail scenario? Is it a custom-made designer piece? The same piece of jewelry could have various values depending on what you need that information for.
Sharon: I wonder, you talked about this handmade piece. Is there a replacement? Yes, there's an insurance value, but could you find a replacement somewhere in the market?
Gina: That's a great question. You know what? Appraisal organizations, we all have forums, email chat groups where we ask each other questions and use the collaborative brain trust of your peers to help you solve a problem, and a problem came up today. There was a photograph of a bracelet that was posted by a professional appraiser. This appraiser recognized the designer. The designer and the manufacturer—they are one in the same—was a French designer called Georges Lenfant. He was a manufacturer of chains, particularly beautifully constructed chains and bracelets, and he manufactured for all the major jewelry houses, Van Cleef & Arpels, Cartier, goodness me, so many of them. He was very active in the 50s and the 60s and the 70s. He had his own trademark that he would put inside a piece, but he didn't sign it. The piece was often signed with the jewelry house, Cartier, and then it had the Georges Lenfant stamp inside the piece. He was a French maker.
I tell you all of this to explain that today, when pieces of jewelry come to market made by this particular maker, there is an extra layer of interest and value because these pieces are so beautifully made. This appraiser posted a piece of jewelry by this maker. This is one of those pieces that wasn't signed by a major jewelry house, but the appraiser was very good and was able to recognize that it was the Georges Lenfant trademark and posed the question, "Can anybody tell me where I can find examples of this piece so I can arrive at an opinion of replacement value?" It was a 1970s bracelet made by this French maker. Where would you replace a 1970s piece made by this maker? It would be with somebody who typically sells vintage jewelry, high-end vintage jewelry. That should have been the answer to this question.
Unfortunately, one of the answers provided was, "Contact the manufacturer and ask them what they would charge you to make it today." It's not being made today, not that particular piece. It's a vintage piece by a collectible maker. I guess that's a very long example to your question. You need to determine, is this a piece that's typically being made today, or is this a vintage piece that has collectible value? Do you recognize who the maker is? Is there a stamp inside there? Is there some way you can look this up? If you can't look it up, who do you go to? How do you find out? You need to know to ask all these questions. All this happens by networking with your peers, by attending appraisal conferences, by self-educating, and by handling a lot of this jewelry.
Sharon: Do you have a favorite period that you like to appraise, or a favorite stone that you are more partial to?
Gina: Oh, boy. Gosh. Well, my focus is 20th century jewelry. I have no favorites. I love all periods of jewelry, but because I am very much immersed these days in jewelry from 1930 to 2000, which I feel is an area of education that is not being covered enough, I tend to focus on 20th century jewelry and preferably the latter half.
Sharon: I can understand. How do you bring the jewelry in, and what do you do with it once you have it?
Gina: A typical day as a consignment director at Heritage Auctions. Well, that varies from day to day, but if you're talking about the consignment process, I could be going to visit with a client. It could be in his or her home. I could be looking at the jewelry and studying the jewelry and learning about the history behind the piece from the owner. Based on that information and based on the collection, I could be coming up with estimate ranges of what the piece of jewelry may sell for at auction. At that point, the owner of the jewelry may consign it to the auction house, at which point I take the jewelry with me and it goes through the auction process.
It gets shipped to headquarters, where it is professionally photographed. If there are any repairs that need to be done, it's done at that point. If lab reports need to be obtained, they are submitted to the labs for grading reports or gem origin identification reports. Then they go through the cataloging process, where the pieces are tested, gemstones are measured, and weight estimates are provided and entered into the system. Then all this information is compiled into the digital online catalog. If it's a signature sale, it also goes into the printed catalog and it goes to print. Those catalogs are distributed to all the bidders.
Then the marketing begins. Biographies are written and researched. Anything that will assist in helping to provide more information to a potential bidder is entered. Then the publicity begins and the public previews begin. The pieces are shipped and sent off to our major satellite offices where they are set up in jewelry showcases, and they are available for public preview. Sometimes special events are planned around these previews, and the planning behind those special events takes place as well. Once all of that is complete, then the pieces are offered up on auction day. When the pieces have successfully sold at auction, then they are packaged up again, money is collected, and the pieces are shipped to the new owners.
Sharon: Do you ever have repeat clients or repeat people who call you and say, "Gina, I have something I want to show you," because you've developed a relationship?
Gina: Yes, definitely. I have regular consignors and I have regular buyers, and sometimes they are one in the same. There are people that are constantly refining their jewelry collections, so sometimes they'll sell a piece that they no longer need, but they're also collecting pieces that are more to their evolving tastes. We have collectors. Then we also have repeat consignors. I have many clients who have accumulated lovely jewelry collections over the years, and they're very slowly thinning the collection or letting each piece go once they're ready to sell it.
Sharon: Is that because they're aging out, let's say, or they get tired of a piece?
Gina: It could be either. If you're a collector and you're refining your collection, then yes, you're refining it and you're selling pieces that no longer fit in with your style that is evolving. If you're downsizing, you could be downsizing everything in your life, including your home, your clothes and your jewelry collection. Sometimes lifestyle. Especially today, lifestyles change. We no longer wear the jewelry we used to wear, and it's just sitting around. Maybe it's time to sell those pieces to put it into something else. Maybe you want to start a college fund for your child, and that jewelry you're no longer wearing anymore is going to go into that fund. There are all kinds of reasons why people sell their jewelry. Sometimes it's a divorce settlement. Sometimes it's by court order. We've had many sales that have been by court order. The government wants to collect their taxes and it's a liquidation. Jewelry is going up for sale because it's by court order.
Sharon: It's certainly true that lifestyles change very fast and what you wore. I think, "Well, you're a middle-aged woman now. Am I going to wear what I wore when I was 20?" It's very different.
Gina, thank you very much for being here. I learned a lot. It was great to talk with you and I hope you will come back soon.
Gina: Thank you so much, Sharon. It was such a pleasure to talk to you as well.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gina D'Onofrio
With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D'Onofrio's experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management.
Gina operates an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm and has been catering to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area.
Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation, upon completion of appraisal studies, written and practical examinations and peer appraisal report review with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers.
In 2013 Gina received Los Angeles Magazine's coveted "Best in LA" award for her Jewelry Appraisal Services.
She conducts presentations and entertaining speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in Los Angeles and throughout the USA.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Auctions, appraisals, and the professionals who perform them are some of the most misunderstood elements of the jewelry industry. That’s exactly why Gina D’Onofrio, independent appraiser and Co-Director of Fine Jewelry at Heritage Auctions, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast. She discussed what a consigner can expect when selling jewelry with an auction house; how appraisers come up with values (and why they might change); and how consumers can protect themselves by asking their appraiser the right questions. Read the episode transcript here.
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.
Today, I am glad to welcome back Gina D'Onofrio, an appraiser who just returned from being an independent appraiser. She returned to the auction house Heritage as co-director of jewelry. She was also on the podcast in the very beginning, and it's good to have her on again.
I got to know Gina when she was head of the western arm of the Association of Jewelry Historians, a volunteer position. I got to know her further when she was an independent appraiser. She recently returned to Heritage Auction House as co-director of the jewelry department. Why did she return to Heritage? That's one of the things she'll be sharing with us as she tells her story. Gina will also be describing why she chose to become an appraiser and what the job entails on a day-to-day basis. She'll tell us how she deals with the dual challenges of not only bringing in jewelry to appraise, but nurturing relationships that make clients keep coming back to her with jewelry. Gina, welcome to the podcast.
Gina: Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to be back, Sharon. Great to talk to you again.
Sharon: I'm so glad that you are on the show again. Now, my first question is if I describe to you a piece of jewelry and you've never held it or seen it or anything, but I tell you it's this many years old and it's these stones, if it has stones, can you tell me how much you think it would be worth?
Gina: Well, appraising a piece of jewelry that I can't actually see and evaluate and hold in my hand to determine the different value characteristics it might have, it would be flippant of me to give you a value. I think it would be unfair, because you may describe it to me based on your knowledge of the piece or based on what somebody has told you about the piece. If I hold it in my hand, I might see something totally different. I may have a different opinion.
For example, you may say that someone told you it was an Art Deco brooch, that it was 1920s, and it was a sapphire and diamond piece. If I had a chance to look at it, I might determine that the sapphire was laboratory grown rather than natural, because they were producing sapphires in a lab in the 1920s. You may not have that piece of information. You may have part of it, that it's a sapphire, but you may not have the rest. So, for me to arrive at a value based on your description, it's just incomplete. It wouldn't be fair.
Sharon: Could you tell if a sapphire was lab grown or if it was natural if you just looked at it without a loupe or without a microscope?
Gina: No, not without a loupe. Definitely not. Sometimes I can determine with a loupe, depending on the sapphire and the nature of the inclusions it may or may not have. But I would have to say that nine times out of 10, I need that microscope to separate the lab grown from the natural. In fact, I was doing a lot of that today. I have a collection of pieces from a dealer, and they need me to tell them if it's laboratory grown or natural. Most of the pieces they have provided to me are circa 1920 through to 1940, and about 70% of them are lab grown.
Sharon: That's interesting. One would think that they're mostly all the same. They're all lab grown or they're all natural, or most of them are one or the other.
Gina: Yes, one would think. In fact, one of the pieces had both in the one piece. It had square calibre cut sapphires in the piece, and some of them were natural and some of them were lab grown. They were selected not for the value of the sapphires. They were selected so that they were all uniform in color. At the time, I have no doubt that those lab-grown sapphires were much more expensive than they are today, just like I imagine lab-grown diamonds will be 20 years from now. Right now, they are falling rapidly in price. I imagine in the future we'll be looking at those lab-grown diamonds just like we're looking at lab-grown sapphires that were produced in the early 20th century.
Sharon: That's interesting. Like this dealer, if I have several pieces of jewelry that I want to sell or I want to auction off, should I make the rounds of auctioneers and see what the best deal is, or should I choose the one I like, the auctioneer that I jibe with the most?
Gina: That's an interesting question. There's a lot of depends there. It depends on the piece that you have. Some auction houses will only take a certain price point and above in order for them to bring your piece to a successful sale. So, already, your piece may or may not be suitable for some auction houses.
The second part of your question, I think, is very important because the market is going to do what it's going to do. If the auction house is one of the more reputable, top-tier auction houses—Heritage Auctions is definitely one of them. If they are going to be putting the proper marketing behind your piece, professional photography, if they have an international bidding audience, then after that, it's going to be important to know that you have a comfortable relationship with the representative of that auction house and that they are going to be your advocate, because it's not just the estimate. In fact, the estimate is probably the very least important thing about your piece if you were going to be selling it at auction.
What's more important is what are they going to do for you? Are they going to represent your piece properly? Do they have the right audience for your piece? How many photographs of the piece are going to be taken? Is it going to be up for a public preview? Is it a traveling preview that your piece is going to be placed in? There are many aspects to this that need to be discussed with you as the consignor. Then also, what fees are you going to be charged? There's a lot of ifs. I wish I could give you a more direct answer, but if you were going to me, for example, at Heritage Auctions, I'm going to be exploring all those options with you so that you can make an informed decision.
Sharon: On the Antiques Roadshow, they say very often, "In a well-marketed auction, this would be X-Y-Z price." To me, a well-marketed auction is one that has to advertise. I'd see ads. That's it. What would you consider a well-marketed auction piece or auction?
Gina: Well, Sharon, coming from you, I think that's an excellent question since you are a marketing extraordinaire. These days, marketing is very different, isn't it? We're looking at more the digital aspect of marketing, because so many of us are online now, just like you and I are right now. Being online for marketing is what type of social media presence do you have? What type of email marketing do you have? Also, what is your bidding audience for marketing? How are you able to reach them? Through email, or are you just relying on more conventional forms of auction marketing, be it print advertising or be it public previews? I think in this present market, it's good to have a balance of both. But I am finding that digital marketing is becoming more and more critical.
Sharon: I would believe that. I'm curious, what are the fees involved? Is it the buyer who pays the fees or the auction house that pays the fees to the buyer? I never understood that.
Gina: Again, it depends. As far as the consignor goes, if you have the Hope Diamond, then I imagine that the buyer will have no fees to pay. It is such a highly coveted piece that everybody would be very competitive to have that on the cover of their auction catalog. But in the auction world, with most auction houses, both the buyer and the seller are paying fees. This is how the auction house survives. The fees are going to vary depending on the consignment. How many pieces are you consigning? What is the value of the pieces that you're consigning? That is going to vary.
On the buyer end, the fees are very much locked in. I have to tell you, I don't join Heritage Auctions again for another two weeks, so I don't have the most current buyer's fees. But I believe that it is around 25%, give or take, up until a certain amount. Above that, the buyer's premium starts to go down in price. It's tiered depending on the value of the piece, the hammer price of the piece that you are purchasing.
Sharon: Can you negotiate? Let's say you do have the Hope Diamond. What is negotiable? How many pieces you are putting in, but how much you're getting for each piece or reserved prices?
Gina: As a consignor?
Sharon: Yes.
Gina: Fees can be negotiable if you have something important. If it's a lot of work to sell a piece, and by that I mean if you have 100 pieces that are probably going to auction for $1,000 or less, then you will probably pay the full rate because it's a lot of work to sell all those individual pieces for the amount of money that the auction house will receive. It really depends on what you have. But if you have something very important with important provenance like the Hope Diamond, then that's definitely negotiable.
As far as reserves go, reserves are something that the specialist should really set for you. That is something they will suggest to you. You may or may not agree with them, but at the end of the day, once you arrive at an agreed reserve, then that goes into your contract. That is contractual.
Sharon: Can you explain to everybody to make sure we're all on the same page, what is the reserve, what's a consigner, and what's the opposite?
Gina: Yes, the language. The consignor is the person that owns the jewelry. They are the person that is loaning the jewelry to the auction house to give them the opportunity to sell it on behalf of the consignor. So, the consignor owns the piece.
The reserve is the absolute minimum that the piece will hammer for, and hammer means the final bid, the highest bid that someone will pay for at auction. That is the absolute minimum that it will go for at auction. That is the reserve. It is also the opening bid for Heritage Auctions. For example, let's say a piece has an auction estimate of $1,500 to $2,500, and I may suggest to you that the reserve for that piece should be $1,000. The opening bid, the minimum is $1,000, so the bidding begins at that amount. If nobody else bids on that piece except for one person who has bid the reserve, $1,000, that is the price it will hammer for. That is the final sale. Does that make sense?
Sharon: It makes sense. I was wondering how long somebody has to pull the piece back, as they say. If they have the feeling they won't like what the hammer price is, can they pull it back?
Gina: The reserve, that $1,000 for that piece is in their written contract. And in the written contract, they have agreed to allow the auction house to take it through to completion. By the time it is photographed, cataloged, shipped, insured, marketed, the auction house has invested a certain amount of money in that piece. So, if there is a contract, if there is an agreement for the auction house to try and sell this on behalf of the consignor, they have to be allowed to take it through to completion. That is why it is in the contract, because the auction house is investing money in the piece.
Sharon: That makes a lot of sense. Jumping subjects, in jewelry you can do a lot of different things. Why did you decide to become an appraiser? You could have done a lot of things with a GIA, a gemological degree. Why did you decide to become an appraiser?
Gina: That's a great question. For me, I didn't initially plan on becoming an appraiser. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry. I got my Gemological Diploma. I graduated in 1992. I got my FGA. I worked in retail and then I worked in design. At the time, I was also doing appraisals in Australia. We call them valuations. I was a valuer, but that was something that I did part time. I did what was required at the time. Then I worked for an antiques dealer and was involved in buying and selling of antique and estate jewelry. Then I worked for a manufacturer assisting in the production of jewelry. I worked in different areas of the jewelry industry.
Many years later I decided to open my own business, and that business was going to be doing custom design work because I was able to draw, do renderings and was very good with production. The other half of my business was going to be appraisals. I was doing both, and the business pretty much decided for me what I was going to do full time. After I was established, I realized that there was such a demand for an independent appraiser that I had to stop jewelry designing and just focus on the appraisal aspect of it.
Sharon: Why an independent appraiser? I would think that if you go to an auction house, I would like to think it's an independent appraisal. If the appraiser works for the auction house, whether or not they do, it would still be an independent appraisal. Is that true or not?
Gina: Well, to answer that question, we probably need to back up a little bit and define what an appraisal is. An appraisal is a researched opinion of value. In order for me to arrive at a researched opinion of value, I need to know what you, the client, want to do with the information. Are you purchasing insurance for your piece? If that's the case, we need to appraise your piece for what it would cost for you to walk into a store that typically sells that piece of jewelry. We research that market. We research all the stores that typically sell your jewelry. The most common price is what I would appraise it for.
If you are selling that exact same piece of jewelry, that ends up being a different value. So, I have to understand what you want to do with that information. If you, as a private individual, want to sell your piece of jewelry, your options are to sell it at auction, to sell it directly to a dealer or a store that sells pre-owned jewelry, or you could put it online on eBay or one of the online auction platforms yourself as a private individual. In all cases, there is a cost to selling that we have to factor in, and we also have to research what pieces like yours have recently sold at auction. We look at the most common price to arrive at an opinion of resale value. That value is going to be different to what you would pay for it in a retail store.
Sharon: You reminded me that earlier today I happened to be looking at an estate jewelry site and they said, "You can consign your jewelry with us." I thought that was interesting. I wonder, do they pay more for it? Where would we get the most for it? Is there a rule of thumb?
Gina: Well, again, it depends. What type of marketing, what type of audience do they have, what type of track record do they have? I really can't speak to the online vendor you're referring to because I don't know who it is. But basically, you want to sell your jewelry with the company or the platform that has the biggest audience and the best track record, and the ones that are going to do the most in the form of marketing for your piece. And then also you have to look at the cost of selling and take all that into consideration. Who is going to represent your piece in the best possible way?
Sharon: What was the process that you had to go through to become an appraiser once you decided that's what you wanted to do, plus the rendering and the custom design? What did you have to do?
Gina: For me, my skill set is a culmination of having worked in different areas of the industry. Everything that I had done up until the point where I started to appraise independently assisted me in being able to evaluate a piece. Aside from that, having a Gemological Diploma, having experience in different areas of the jewelry industry, having handled thousands and thousands of antique and period pieces of jewelry, having worked for a manufacturer and understanding the process of manufacturing jewelry, understanding the difference between a handmade piece versus a cast, mass produced piece. My past experience helped me with all of that. That's one side of appraisal education, hands-on experience.
The other side is understanding how to write an appraisal report and appraisal theory, which is some of what I was trying to describe to you earlier with some of the questions you posed. For example, understanding the difference between resale value, liquidation value, fair market value, writing an appraisal for the IRS, writing an appraisal as an expert witness for settling a dispute in court. This is all education that you can gain by attending classes with an appraisal organization. Reputable appraisal organizations have what we call principles of value. They teach classes on writing appraisal reports for different reasons.
You also need to have a solid foundation in jewelry history. Unfortunately, there's no one path to gaining education in jewelry history. It's something that you acquire through various appraisal conferences and appraisal organizations. It is ongoing. I myself found that there was a serious need for education in jewelry history, so I have developed my own courses and I have been teaching them. I've been teaching 20th century jewelry history to various organizations and also in shorter form for jewelry seminars. This is something that a jewelry appraiser really needs a solid foundation in.
The other part of being an independent jewelry appraiser is not just knowing jewelry history, jewelry theory, jewelry appraisal report writing and jewelry manufacturing, but they also need to understand who all the major jewelry designers are. They need to self-educate by going to those jewelry houses. Cartier, Tiffany and Company, David Webb, Chopard, all the major jewelry designers. Learn who they all are. Learn what is typical of their design. Start handling more and more pieces from these major jewelry designers at auction previews. Attend as many auction previews as you can. Attend as many conferences as you can, as many jewelry shows as you can. The more exposure that an appraiser has, the better an appraiser they will become.
Sharon: So, there's no license or something you can get that teaches you all this, like how to write the reports and the history and whatever else there is involved, which is a lot.
Gina: Yes, it's a lot. It's ongoing. I've been doing this for 35 years now. I'm still learning. I teach it and I'm still learning, and that's why I love it. It's never ending. You can learn the theory of appraisal report writing with an appraisal organization such as the ASA, the American Society of Appraisers, or the NAJA, National Association of Jewelry Appraisers or the ISA. I'm mentioning them all because I'm not showing favoritism for one over another. They all have their strengths. I'm a member of all three, but they all have education they can provide for appraisers.
Then there are organizations like the Accredited Gemologists Association, which I believe is a must because they provide education for the cutting edge of gemology, the latest treatments and techniques that you need to learn. They have conferences twice a year and also online education. Then you should join the American Society of Jewelry Historians so that you can network with other people who are trying to self-educate on jewelry history and become privy to some of the education that they provide.
There are also two major antique jewelry shows that you can attend in the US. One of them is the Miami Antiques Show that is in January, and the other one is the Jewelry Antique Show in Las Vegas at the end of May, early June. I attend the one in Las Vegas every single year. I attend as many jewelry previews as I can and visit many estate jewelry retailers, too. The more that you handle, the more that you inspect, the better you are going to be as an appraiser.
Sharon: What do you look for when you're inspecting and handling these pieces? What do you look for?
Gina: You're training your eye. I'm training my eye. I'm becoming a connoisseur. You can see behind me there are a lot of books there. I do read a lot of books on jewelry design, jewelry designers and jewelry history. Then I go out and look at jewelry from those particular designers, and I look for consistency in how a piece is being made. I look at how that piece has been found. I look at consistency in the design.
For example, if I am looking at pieces of jewelry by an American designer, David Webb, David Webb was very active in the 60s and 70s. He died, I believe, in the late 70s, but his jewelry designs are still being made today from his catalog of designs. He was a very active designer with an enormous collection of renderings. His pieces are still being made, and there's a consistency to how he liked to design his jewelry. His jewelry designs were always very big and bold. They were colorful, or they were very black and white chromatic. He had a way of signing his jewelry. He had certain influences that informed how he designed that jewelry. There was a consistency in all of that.
David Webb always liked to work in yellow gold and platinum. You don't typically see jewelry by David Webb that is white gold and platinum or white gold and yellow gold. It's platinum and yellow gold. That was his choice of metals. So, if you see something that's white gold and yellow gold, already, that's a red flag. But you wouldn't know to look for that unless you're handling a lot of pieces by that particular designer.
Cartier, for example, their jewelry was manufactured in Paris, but also some of the jewelry is manufactured in the US. They sign their jewelry in a particular way. They have certain collections that they designed over the decades. Until you start handling more and more pieces by that jewelry house, you would not know how to recognize it unless you're reading the books and cross-referencing. Sharon, I am giving you very long answers to these questions. I hope that it's helping.
Sharon: No, it's interesting. It's making me think of other questions. For instance, you talked about the replicas from David Webb. They're still doing things from the catalog. Would that be worth as much as an original David Webb, as when he was alive, if you had a replica?
Gina: Well, when you say replica, you mean a newer David Webb piece versus an older David Webb piece, right? Because a replica means somebody who is not David Webb has replicated it, has copied it, and that's a different thing. I'm just clarifying for the audience.
Sharon: No, please.
Gina: We're talking about a newer David Webb piece made from the back catalog. I guess it depends on the piece. There are collectors of David Webb jewelry who like to think that they're buying an earlier piece of David Webb jewelry when David Webb was active. But newer David Webb jewelry is still collectible and still very desirable.
Sharon: That's interesting.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Saudia Young
Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art.
The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single ‘Noir Rockabilly Blues,’ produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop’s 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12” debut ‘Unlovable’ in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany’s legendary Lightning Recorders.
Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series).
Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother’s legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara’s work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, we’re speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. Welcome back.
Were you aware she was doing this? Were you aware that she went to different galleries, that she didn’t have a sales rep when you were growing up? Were you aware of this?
Saudia: Yeah, of course. There was one point in the 90s where she had a showroom. Tony Goldman and Janet Goldman had a showroom called Fragments, and she was in the showroom for some years. She had different reps throughout her life. Ten Thousand Things was a store. They still exist, and they have incredibly beautiful work. For a while in the Meatpacking District, they had a nice cadre of artists, and my mom was one of the artists. They also did wholesale for her. So, they represented her work to other people.
Sharon: I have a few pieces, just a smattering, but do you have a lot of her work? Do you have an archive of her work?
Saudia: Oh, yeah. That’s part of what I’ve been dealing with. My sister and I have our own personal collections. Throughout the years, my mom collected the best pieces of each group and gave us our personal collections. Then I have basically all the work she left behind when she passed away. I’ve been trying to organize that. There was a big section of it shown at the Aspen Art Museum two years ago for about a year. Jonathan Burger had a show called The Store. My mom’s jewelry and sculptures were in one show. That was really exciting, to have both together. Actually, 14 small sculptures sold during that show and, fingers crossed, about seven pieces will be donated to an institution. I’m not going to say which one. That takes a long time.
Right now, there are pieces that are actively being sold. Lisa Berman—not a family member, just the same last name—from Sculpture to Wear sold some of my mom’s work at her first gallery. She also helped sell some pieces when I came out and was trying to figure out what to do and how to secure the legacy, meaning literally a storage space to hold everything. It's a big responsibility.
Sharon: You’re referring to Lisa Berman.
Saudia: Yeah, who is not your blood relation but of the same name. Obviously, she introduced us and was part of the first interview. She’s consulted with me. She’s another one of the angels. There’s a whole host of people who are still in awe of my mom’s work and in support and cheerleading. It includes Robert Lee Morris.
I’m still trying to figure out what to do with the work to secure the legacy. It is being sold at Studio Hop in Providence, Rhode Island. That’s introducing the work to some people who have not seen it before. It's introducing it to a new audience, which is really nice. Jussara Lee, who used to sell it in Manhattan and is now in Connecticut, has been selling it. Other than that, I have an Artwork Archive website for her so people can see the work. I’m not selling it from that website, but there is a section of it that’s still being sold. Then there’s a section I’m holding in case I can get it accepted into an institution.
Sharon: I remember a few years ago, I fell in love with a bracelet and I didn’t end up getting it. I think it was the first time I ever heard of her, and I thought it was so neat.
Saudia: Yeah, it sold a lot of work. They stopped selling after she passed away. They also had a hard time. Everybody is just recovering now from Covid. A lot of people had a very hard time in the past few years. Some stores closed and sales went down. There were several stores who were carrying her work who have closed since Covid.
Sharon: What did you do to make it through Covid and to have money come in?
Saudia: I cried. I don’t know. I did whatever I could. I was going back and forth between Germany and here. There was a grant in Germany—actually, it wasn’t a grant; it was a loan—but there was a Covid loan they were giving to artists in Germany. Here, I went on unemployment for a while and then I went off it, whatever I could. We all did what we could to survive.
Sharon: That’s very true. I know there were different things we had to do. I agree with you that people are just coming out of it now.
Saudia: And now we have two wars, so it’s like, “Great, thank you.” Can’t catch a break.
Sharon: Which is worse? I don’t know. I guess if you’re in the field over there, it’s worse.
Saudia: Yeah.
Sharon: A lot worse. How does it feel to have a mother who’s mentioned by people you don’t know? You say you’re the daughter and all of a sudden, they say, “Oh, I love your mom,” or “I love her jewelry.”
Saudia: What do you mean? How does it feel?
Sharon: Yeah. If I said, “Oh, I have a really neat bracelet,” and the person says, “I’ve not heard of that person,” how does it feel?
Saudia: First of all, a young man—he’s probably my age. It’s so funny I still think of myself as a teenager. Timothy Reukauf is a stylist. He’s another angel who introduced me to the manager and owner of Screaming Mimis Vintage clothing and jewelry store in New York. When I brought the work, because they brought the work to a vintage show, and they’re showing the work and trying to sell it, she was so enthusiastic and happy and excited. It was nice because it’s an extension of my mom, and I miss my mom. I feel like it’s that, as opposed to anything ego-based. It’s more emotional—now you’re going to get me emotional. But it’s nice to know because I really miss her, and when I hear people loving her work, it’s heartening. It’s heart filling.
Sharon: That’s a good word, heart-filling. I’ve heard different things. It’s Croninger with a hard g. I’ve heard that as Croninger with a soft g. Which one is it?
Saudia: Oh lord, that’s a good one. It’s Cara Croninger with a hard g, but people have called her Croninger with a soft g. People have called her Cara. She’s even called herself Cara, but it’s Cara Lee. Her Michigan name was Cara Lee Croninger, but it depends on who you are. Are you Dutch? Are you German? Are you from New Jersey?
Sharon: Did she support your career as an artist?
Saudia: Do you mean my dreaming? Yeah, she supported me being a dreaming, silly person, definitely. She put me in dance school. She always thought I should be a painter, actually. She’d say, “You should be a painter,” because I had a natural ability to draw and to work with my hands. After being a child laborer with her, I could make things. But all jokes aside, she was very supportive of me being an artist or whatever it was that I wanted to be, political activist or artist. My sister was an architect. She was very supportive of that. She was beloved by a lot of the young artists who were around Dumbo, our friends, our extended family. She was a positive influence, a positive auntie, elder, second mom, to a lot of people.
Sharon: It sounds like it.
Saudia: Yeah. I shared her as a mom figure with a lot of people.
Sharon: Tell us more about your singing. Do you think of her when you sing?
Saudia: Yeah, I think of her with whatever I do, for sure. There’s one song—I think you wrote it down on the question list—It Don’t Mean a Thing (If It Ain’t Got that Swing), doo wop, doo wop, doo wop, doo wop. I think it was Louis Armstrong. She was working on some kind of saying or branding because she was really into the earrings having a nice swing. She coined it when I was helping her make them. The holes had to be big enough so the lyre could be comfortable enough so the earrings could swing. She incorporated that into some of her branding.
But yeah, I listened to a lot of music growing up. She was very into Judy Collins and Kurt Weill, a wild range. She dated one of the Clancy Brothers—they were very into folk music in the 60s—and my dad and her were into soul and Otis Redding and Taj Mahal and Bonnie Raitt. I’m wandering, but yes.
Sharon: What years was she most popular? It seems like she had a real high.
Saudia: I think the 80s. The minute she started doing the resin stuff, she went into Sculpture to Wear, which was a very prestigious gallery. I’d say the early 70s through the 80s. Then Artwear closed and she was on her own. She did really well in the 90s as well. She was pretty prolific, but I think the 80s were the time when there were tons and tons of fashion articles and fashion shoots with all the supermodels of that time.
Sharon: Talk about wandering, because I’m looking at my list of questions. Tell us how you were involved in making her jewelry. You told us a little bit, but did you ever cut the hearts?
Saudia: The hearts were made in molds. She created molds and poured, and then we would open the rubber molds. I would help sand. I would help drill holes. I can drill a hole. I would help with polishing. Like I said, I would help with finishing work and stringing cords on the hearts. Trying to influence her businesswise, she was not having it.
Sharon: Would she say, “That color doesn’t look better in the green. It looks better in the purple,” or something that?
Saudia: No, not really because once something is poured, it’s a done deal. That would be like, after you’ve made 500 brownies, saying, “I wish we had blueberry muffins.” It’s too late now.
Sharon: She could say, “Well, you can have it then, and I’ll try and sell the purple one,” or something.
Saudia: No, the work was too labor-intensive. Once things were made, you really needed to get them out there. They were like donuts in a way. You need to get them out so they don’t go stale. Keep the energy, keep them moving. The only thing she was conflicted about was pricing. There was a point in jewelry where everything—remember when the Y necklaces came out? Everything was really tiny. There was a point where it was trendy to have really tiny jewelry, and that freaked her out because her work was so big and sculptural. She would get freaked out about that kind of stuff. The editors loved her work because it was big and you could see it. It went incredibly with beautiful clothes like Issey Miyake and these avant garde designers. The tiny stuff, you can’t see it in an editorial. It’s so funny; you’ll have a cover article and it’ll be like, “Earrings by whomever,” and I’m like, “Where are they? What earrings?”
Sharon: That’s interesting. Miyake or Yohji Yamamoto, they’re high-end, but they’ve become very—they’re not that valued anymore.
Saudia: Now they’re mainstream, yeah.
Sharon: Do you think your mother’s jewelry would be considered avant garde today?
Saudia: Yeah, it still is in a way because of the designs and the fact that it was really handmade. She was making her own work. Maybe Lisa would call that studio jewelry. She was in her studio making it herself. She did have a short relationship with a company in Japan where they were making work that would only be sold there. It was fine, but you could really see the difference and feel the difference. It wasn’t Cara. It wasn’t special, unfortunately. We’re grateful that they did it, that she had that relationship and that we could go to Japan and travel there. That was awesome.
So, I think she was avant garde as an artist. I don’t agree that Yohji is no longer avant garde. His designs are so beautiful. He’s really focused on craftsmanship, having amazing makers creating his work. In a way that is avant garde, as opposed to crap being made. You know what I mean?
Sharon: You’re right, 100%.
Saudia: In a factory.
Sharon: I can’t think of another one, but there are a lot of designers whose work you can’t afford—I’m talking about clothing—who have developed their own less expensive lines.
Saudia: Yeah. I remember when they would call it the junior line, and it would be for the younger kids. It would be lighter and cheaper and faster and funnier and all that. Now there are lots of layers of that, but you have these throwaway clothes being made by companies like H&M and so forth.
Sharon: Do you think she would fit in, like she’d make a smaller version of something that she made large?
Saudia: She did do some smaller things when she was working with the Japanese company. That led her into making some tiny silver hearts and medium-size silver. Then she had to do her big pieces. She could not let go of her love affair with big, sculptural pieces. I think she was conflicted about the McDonaldizing of fashion and accessories. Of course, she wanted to put food on the table, but she was really conscious of the environment. Even though she was working in plastics, she was very conscious of workers and workers’ rights. Where does something come from? How is it made, and what’s the impact of it being made?
Sharon: It sounds like she carried that through the 80s, into the 90s, into today.
Saudia: Definitely. She definitely had something to do with me being political, her and my father. She was very righteous.
Sharon: I know you do cabaret and rockabilly. What else do you do? What do you sing?
Saudia: My main focus is mental health. It’s a really hard time right now, I feel, but I think it’s actually a good time to continue to do the rockabilly, but to circle back to the dark cabaret I was doing before the rockabilly. So, I’m working on that. I’m working with a few musicians here in Philly, and I have some shows with musicians in other parts of the country. For Thanksgiving, I’m going to be in Illinois with Patrick Jones and 3 On The Tree. It’s a band. We’re going to do a rockabilly Thanksgiving tour. Then in March, I’ll be in California, in Orange County.
Sharon: Doing what?
Saudia: Doing rockabilly with The Hi-Jivers and Abby Girl. In Orange County, we’re going to do just a rockabilly R&B show. Then in April, I’ll be with Viva Las Vegas again, which is a rockabilly weekend. I’ll do an R&B show and rockabilly. In between, I’m just trying to stay sane, make a living, take care of my mom’s work, tell her story. I’m supposedly writing a story about my mom and my dad, sort of a solo show. I don’t know if it’s a solo show or a documentary, but it’s about their relationship as an interracial couple in the 60s and an interracial artist couple.
Sharon: That’ll be very interesting
Saudia: They were both known as being difficult people, but most artists are in a way. It takes a lot of energy to do that work, so you can ruffle a lot of feathers. So, that’s what I’m doing.
Sharon: I hope I’ll get to meet you then. Thank you so much. This was very interesting.
Saudia: Thank you so much.
Sharon: Thank you. Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
She would always think about, “What am I going to pour?” It might be a ruby red, which was really popular and beautiful. One of the most popular pours, I think I said in the last interview, was the black and white, where she would have black and white and it would come out in a striped formation. Then she would pour into her different molds, the bangles, the C cuffs, the earrings.
Just as important as the colors were the processes. For the slice earrings, she would pour the layers so it would be striped into a block like a loaf of bread, a small, little, long brownie. Then she would slice it on a bandsaw and you would get to see the stripes. Part of her process was the actual cutting, carving, sanding to get the shapes, and then making the decision whether she was going to have them polished or matte without polish.
Sharon: A mask?
Saudia: Matte, sorry. What the finish would be. If she had faceted bangles or hearts or whatever, she was very aware of not making anything perfect. She used the fact that it had scratches to show the layers of work and to show that it’s made by a human. It wasn’t something that needed to be absolutely perfect. She was very into wabi sabi, the Japanese art of the imperfect. She loved wavy shapes and asymmetry in her designs.
Sharon: Who did the selling for the first years, when you were getting it off the ground?
Saudia: I was a kid, so I wasn’t going to get it off the ground. I was just eating the food she was putting in the refrigerator. When she first started with the leatherwork, she was just going around to different boutiques in the Village or whatever and selling them, either having them buy it straight out or on consignment. I think one of the worker’s galleries was the original Sculpture to Wear. That was near where MAD Museum is right now. I’m forgetting the name of the hotel. That was one of her galleries. I’m sure there were other stores I don’t know about.
That was in 1971 or something like that. That was very close to when she started working in plastic. She got taken in and accepted really quickly. At that time, Robert Lee Morris was also selling at Sculpture to Wear. He was a wunderkind. He was opening up his own gallery, Artwear, and brought my mother into that gallery. During that time, that also gave the artists recognition and amplified their voices. They were able to have their work in stores in Boston and in California because of being in Artwear.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Saudia Young
Saudia Young is a New York City-born actress/singer and storyteller in theater and film. Born on the Lower East Side and brought up between Tribeca and LA, Young explores the notion of home, love, justice, and identity through her art.
The recently repatriated artist lived in Berlin, Germany, for a long chapter of performing, writing, and producing. The Ameripolitan Awards 2023 Female Rockabilly Singer nominee released her 7" single ‘Noir Rockabilly Blues,’ produced by Lars Vegas-DE and featuring 'The Wobble' on the A and Iggy Pop’s 'Lust for Life' on the B side, in 2017, followed up by her 12” debut ‘Unlovable’ in 2018. The LP was recorded live at Berlin, Germany’s legendary Lightning Recorders.
Young founded a Dark Kabarett and a Rockabilly Noir Blues band in Berlin, co-created the Lost Cabaret and the Schwarze Liste Kabarett theater projects and wrote and produced the award-winning short film The Gallery. While in Berlin, she was cast in the lead voice-over role of Oskar in School for Vampires (the English version of the Hahn Film cartoon series).
Young co-wrote and performed the solo show Sneaker Revolution and is currently writing a theater/film piece about her actor father, Otis Young, and sculptor/designer mom Cara Croninger.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
To jewelry lovers, Cara Croninger was a groundbreaking artist whose work was shown at iconic galleries Artwear and Sculpture to Wear. To musician and actress Saudia Young, she was just mom. Today, Saudia is working to preserve her mother’s legacy and secure her place in art jewelry history. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Cara made her pioneering resin jewelry; how Cara’s work evolved with the times; and why Saudia thinks of her mom every time she performs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, we’re speaking to my guest, Saudia Young, who is located in Philadelphia. She has an interesting background. Her mother was a very well-known jeweler, and her father was an actor. She was born in New York and grew up between New York and Los Angeles. She is New York material. You will be surprised to hear that she developed a career as an actress, a writer and a singer. She’s described as having a whisky voice, and I think that’s true, a caramel whisky voice. She was a nominee in 2023.
Saudia: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really glad to come on to your show for the second time. It was the Ameripolitan Music Awards. I was simply nominated for female rockabilly singer. There are lots of different categories and full bands. Jane Rose won for the rockabilly female singer that year. They’re moving on, but it was very exciting to come after 15 years in Germany to participate in that. I’ve met a lot of awesome people because of that.
Sharon: I know you’ve lived in several places, but I didn’t know for 15 years, you say, in Berlin?
Saudia: Yes.
Sharon: Wow! Now you’re in Philadelphia this evening.
Saudia: Yes.
Sharon: Is that your home?
Saudia: It is for now. It’s where my sister lives. I have a sister from my mother and my father. He had other children, so that’s why I clarify that. I’m spending some time with my sister. I’ve been back and forth in the States since my mom passed in 2019. I’m honestly trying to figure out where I’m going to live. It’s not clear because of Covid and my mom passing, but it’s been a lot.
Sharon: 15 years being in one place.
Saudia: Yeah, so I’m here for now. I feel like I can’t commit to saying this is my home. It’s like, “Let’s see what it brings. Let’s see what happens.” It’s great to hang out with my sister. I’m close to my mom’s work, which is stored now in Hackensack, New Jersey. I moved it from New York. My mom’s work has had more of a tour than I have.
Sharon: Cara Croninger is your mom’s name. Even though she passed—I’m very sorry to hear that—she’s still very well-known. She has an exhibit in the Smithsonian?
Saudia: No, it’s simply her papers, photographs, articles, fashion editorials. As you know, she bridged fashion and art. She was in both worlds. She had a toe or a foot or whatever in both worlds, so she has been accepted into the Archives of American Art at the Smithsonian. That means they have letters, her correspondence to other artists and gallerists and whomever, any type of reviews, sketches, all her boxes of papers and some photographs. It’s an honor. It was sad to let that go, but it’s also awesome because that means it’s helping to secure her legacy.
It will eventually be uploaded digitally so people will be able to look at it. You can go into the archives and look up different artists and see their papers. For example, one of my favorite things were letters from Floriana Frassetto, who founded Mummenschanz and was one of her best friends. She always wrote these beautiful letters to her. She would call her Cara Mia. She was Swiss-Italian. So, it’s just that, showing the ephemeral items in her life.
Sharon: You’ve been on this program before. You were among our first guests—
Saudia: Yeah.
Sharon: If you want to listen to it, it’s on TheJewelryJourney.com. We’re so glad to have you back again.
Saudia: Thank you.
Sharon: Tell me why your mom’s jewelry was different. What was the breakthrough? Why are they keeping her papers?
Saudia: I think because of that bridge. She wasn’t craft. She came as a sculptor. Her jewelry was made of acrylic and polyester resin, although she did work in other materials like metals. She started off painting, but the work was always very sculptural and almost avant garde. It went from very organic and indigenous and African influenced to futuristic. It was solidly in the art world, but also solidly in the fashion world when she was with Robert Lee Morris’ gallery, Artwear, and before that, Sculpture to Wear.
Artwear blew up and it was very, very popular in the press and in fashion magazines. All the top models were wearing it. People like Iman would come to the gallery openings. It was part of that whole exciting time in the 80s in New York, seeping a little bit into the 90s, but mostly in the 80s. It was in the late 70s and throughout the 80s that they had their heyday. There were other artists in this gallery that are now working and very well-known, like Ted Muehling, Robert Lee Morris himself. Carol Motty, may she rest in peace, was a very, very good friend of my mom. She worked in silicone.
Sharon: I’m sorry. I don’t know her.
Saudia: Carol Motty. She did wild, neon-colored, awesome pieces in silicone rubber. She was unique in that it literally was a bridge of art and fashion. That’s what she built. I think that was her significance. In terms of the materials, the pieces cost anywhere from $40 to $4,000 or more. She raised the level of this material, which is plastic resin and acrylic, polyester resin, to a very high level. It would get the same price that silver and gold and gemstone jewels would get because of the beauty, the workmanship, that she put into it. The work is known for having this sensual beauty. A lot of the pieces have a wonderful weight. They have a talisman magic to them. People often will collect the pieces. You even collected some pieces.
Sharon: Yeah, I did. I love them.
Saudia: It’s kind of magic. She herself as a person was a beautiful, down-to-earth, but funny and effervescent person. People loved meeting her. They loved collecting the work.
Sharon: What was the role you and your sister played?
Saudia: We were her daughters. We did help make work. There were points where we learned how to do the finishing work. We never did the pouring, creating the pigments or the molds, but we could help with finishing. We’d be her child laborers and work on the sanding machine or polishing or drilling holes or what have you. We were able to do finishing work. Because we grew up with it, we understood the shapes and her style, but even growing up with it, there was always some kind of tension. She would say, “That’s your style. That’s not mine.” It wasn’t easy because it was so organic and very unique. That made it hard for her to have people work for her.
Sharon: When you would attend these parties or an opening night at the galleries, did you know who the celebrities of the day were? Were you aware?
Saudia: Yeah, I was in my early 20s or so. At one point, my sister and I both worked at Artwear. We were both looking forward to working with Robert. That was always really fun. Even the artists were celebrities to us because they were so talented and vivacious and positive. I knew a lot of the models, the supermodels, Pat Cleveland and whomever, but since my dad was an actor, I grew up already having certain people in my life. I was trained for that to be not that big of a deal because I just grew up in that.
When my parents met, they were in the Village in the 60s. James Baldwin was a good friend of my dad, and he was allegedly my godfather. It was a smaller world in a way. Definitely, the 60s and even the 80s feel like a more innocent time than now for some reason. I met different celebrities just on my own, and you felt like they were New Yorkers. I knew Jean-Michel Basquiat and I was like, “He’s just a kid.” I had no clue.
Sharon: Wow! So, this wasn’t a new milieu to you. You knew the big names—I would call them big names—who would come over for dinner. They were around you.
Saudia: Yeah, but it wasn’t—now we’re going back even before Artwear. It was normal to me. I didn’t notice it. It was just part of being a kid in New York, a kid of artists. You know what I mean?
Sharon: But your mother was making this jewelry that I would call groundbreaking. Today we look at it and go, “Oh, it’s a piece of plastic,” but it was groundbreaking then.
Saudia: Yeah, it was definitely groundbreaking. I think it still is because there are few people who can work in it, like Patricia von Musulin, who’s an amazing artist who works with acrylics. There are some people who can work with it. There’s Alexis Bittar, who borrowed a lot of designs from my mom. There are people who can work with it and it’s beautiful, but often you see stuff that’s mass produced overseas. It doesn’t have a good feeling; it just feels cheap. Her work still has this magic weight to it. But as I said, as kids, we didn’t know. It was just, “My mom’s an artist. She’s working at her studio making her stuff.”
Sharon: Was her studio a separate place or was it where you lived?
Saudia: She had many different studios. She had a shared space in Gowanus in Brooklyn, a huge foundry that had 80-foot ceilings that she shared with approximately five other artists. Now, I’m jumping back and forth with timelines. I’m not great with timelines. She had a studio in Dumbo, Brooklyn, at 68 Jay, which was a 2,000-square-foot, awesome studio that she lived in illegally. Our formative years when we were little were on the Lower East Side, but we lived in Tribeca when it was still very industrial. We first started off on Washington Street in an apartment. I think it was a three-bedroom apartment that I recently got to visit again, which was amazing.
She cordoned off a little section of that Astor studio, and then what happened? O.K., when we were at Washington Street, she was able to be one of the resident artists in the Clocktower, which was a studio project where Alanna Heiss was organizing unusual spaces for artists to either create their work or show their work. My mom was one of several artists who were in the Clocktower. That’s where she actually met the artist who showed her how to work with plastics. I don’t know what his name was.
Sharon: So, she wasn’t working with plastic until she met these people?
Saudia: Yeah. She started off painting and doing leatherwork, painting on leather, sewing leather bags, fringe work, Japanese-style obi belts. That’s what she started doing first in terms of accessories and crafts.
Sharon: Did your friends know she was a big name, let’s say?
Saudia: No, we were all pretty clueless. A lot of our friends were kids of painters. We related to them as workers, like this is what they did for their work. My mom was the lady who made great bread. She made homemade bread, and she made great chicken. People would come over and eat. She was a very social person. We had extended family members, but I don’t think my friends thought of her as that famous, not really.
Sharon: I was going to ask you why she wouldn’t let you pour, but that made her work. That’s her name.
Saudia: I didn’t have any desire to pour. As a teenagers, at 18? No desire. I was off doing my own thing. I had my own ways of expressing and my own life. That was her thing.
Sharon: What colors did she like? I’ve seen some pieces, but I know she had a whole range.
Saudia: She worked in an amazing array of colors. She loved vibrant primary colors. She also worked in colors that were more organic, that were reminiscent of ivory or amber. She would do pours. I think we spoke about this. She would do a pour about once a year. It was always a big deal for her to get the emotional wherewithal to do a pour. Also, I think she was aware of the toxicity. She only wanted to pour during the summer, when the windows could be open and the heat would help the plastic pour faster.
Link to article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/20/fashion/jewelry-podcasts.html
Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey podcast. We are thrilled to announce an article on the Jewelry Journey podcast from writer Melanie Abrams released in the New York Times. The article is linked in the show notes, our website, and even Instagram. So please help us take the jewelry journey even farther by sharing, liking and commenting on the article. Hopefully in the coming months I will have some of the other hosts from the article so that we can learn more about their adoration of adornments.
Thank you again for listening.Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Esther de Beaucé
Esther de Beaucé is the founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, France. MiniMasterpiece is a gallery entirely dedicated to contemporary artists, designers and architects’ jewelry. The gallery is an invitation given to those who usually never design jewelry because their work evolves on a more monumental scale (i.e. sculptures). Esther’s passion is to convince those artists to change the scale of their work and accompany them in that new field of wearable art. She has collaborated with acclaimed contemporary artists such as Phillip King, Bernar Venet, Andres Serrano, Lee Ufan, Jean-Luc Moulène, and Pablo Reinoso.
A graduate of Brown University, Esther previously co-owned the gallery Schirman & de Beaucé in Paris, dedicated to young artists of contemporary art.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
For gallerist Esther de Beaucé, artist jewelry isn’t completely art or completely contemporary jewelry. It’s in a niche all its own—and that’s what makes it fascinating. As founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, she helps fine artists translate their art into jewelry, creating something entirely new rather than a smaller version of their typical work. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she challenges artists to think about their work differently; how interest in artist jewelry has evolved over the years; and why artist jewelry collectors are so open minded. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven't heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
I don't remember how I found out about Esther de Beaucé’s gallery in Paris. It is tucked back in the corner with other galleries. Welcome back.
Do you have collectors, people who like a certain artist or piece they've found in your gallery, and then they come back and look for others, or you send them a postcard telling them, “We're having a show of that artist,” or something like that?
Esther: Yes. I have shows at the gallery as well, maybe for a year. Most of the time they are solo shows. I like solo shows a lot because it's like for art, when when you have a solo show, you're surrounded by several pieces of work. You are emerging into their body of work. It's more interesting to me than having one piece by that artist and another piece by another artist. I like solo shows a lot, but solo shows are not easy to make because it means that obviously the artist had several ideas. It takes a lot of time to organize a solo show, but I try to make solo shows most of the time. I invite all my collectors to these shows.
It's always difficult to know what's going to happen between a collector and a piece of jewelry, what connection is going to operate at that time. Sometimes collectors choose or fall for an object, and they don't know the artist who's behind it, but they really fall for an object. I really like that idea. Sometimes collectors are very close to an artist, and they have several pieces of that artist in their homes. When they realize that artist has also made a piece of jewelry, then of course they're going to be interested in it. Most of the jewels I have at the gallery, I hope they speak for themselves. You were asking me about collectors and jewelry.
Sharon: You answered the question. But do have people who only collect, let's say, Pablo Picasso's jewelry or something that?
Esther: Yeah, of course. Some women only wear silver or only wear gold or only wear rings or never wear any brooches. I try to remember all that so I can show them what they like. But I also enjoy presenting them with other things, too, because it's always interesting to make discoveries.
And the collectors of artist jewelry are very open-minded people. It takes a lot of, I wouldn't say courage, but it takes a lot of personality to wear something that is different from common jewelry. You have to be strong because you're going to attract looks, and sometimes you have to speak about what you're wearing and answer people's reactions. Sometimes other people can be very narrow-minded, and you have to assume what you chose and what you wear on your body.
So, this type of collector, they're very interesting to welcome. What I mean is that even though they have their taste, they are easy to counsel as well because they have that curiosity. They want to learn, and they want to see so much. So, they are very interesting people.
Sharon: Do they go on to start liking the artist's other things, their paintings or drawings, after they started with the jewelry?
Esther: Yes, of course. I have a lot of jewels at the gallery, but I also have a lot of books, and those books help me explain the artist's work at large. Often, when I can, I try to offer a book to accompany the jewel to give them more background on the artist. Yeah, definitely.
Sharon: Do you make jewelry yourself? Did you ever make jewelry yourself?
Esther: No. Never. Maybe as a kid playing with leaves and flowers, but that's it. Or pasta.
Sharon: What did you study? When you were in the States, did you think about opening a gallery in France?
Esther: No, I studied anthropology. I really wanted to work as an anthropologist, but it didn't happen. After that first art experience that ended in 2012, I wanted a new project working with artists. I had seen the year before, in 2011, a great artist jewelry show at the MAD in New York. That was actually my mother's collection of artist jewelry. I went to New York for her opening, and it was the first time that I saw her collection in the museum environment, and I was so impressed. I started thinking of a new project for myself, and this show in New York was really—how would you say—
Sharon: Eye opening.
Esther: That's it. Eye opening and a decision-making moment. And as I came back to Paris, I started really talking about it and organizing my professional life to make it possible.
Sharon: That's interesting. When you said your mother was a collector, I thought, “Well, she must have started early, before anybody was wearing it or knew about it.” Today, more and more people know about it, but then she probably didn't have a lot of friends who were collecting the same thing.
Esther: Yeah, for sure. That show was 12 years ago, but she started collecting artist jewelry 40 years ago. There are few women in the world who have done the same thing. There are few. It's a large and important collection. She focused on that in a professional way.
Sharon: When you said that you thought it was a more active field in the 60s and 70s and then it sort of died down, why do you think that was?
Esther: It's a matter of different elements. I think it was in 1969, there was a great show at the MOMA in New York on artist jewelry that’s never happened since. You also had great artists, jewelry editors at that time in Italy. You had GianCarlo Montebello, who was a goldsmith and an editor, and he worked with fantastic artists like Fontana and the Pomodoro brothers. Montebello made fantastic pieces. In the south of France, you had François Hugo, who was a very important goldsmith as well. He's the one who made all the jewelry by Max Ernst and Man Ray and Picasso and Dorothea Tanning.
Sometimes it's just a matter of a few people. They really made the artist jewelry world very active at the time, but then they stopped and did something else, so it went quiet again. Hopefully, it's getting more intense now, but you need people behind it. Once these people do something else, then it dies a little bit. And then you have a new generation of editors and it starts again.
Sharon: By editor you also mean curator, right? It's a curator.
Esther: Also, yeah. By editor I mean what I do personally, but what also has been done by Luisa Guinness or Elisabetta Cipriani or Marina Filippini, those active editors, meaning you invite artists to make jewelry pieces. This is what I called editor. This is what I do.
Sharon: Do you only wear art jewelry that you have in your gallery or that an artist has made, or do you wear “normal” jewelry?
Esther: It might sound weird to you, but I'm a low-key person. I'm a discreet person. When I'm at the gallery every day, I choose a piece of work and I wear it all day in the gallery with an immense pleasure. But when I go out, when I go to a dinner party or visit a show, I don't wear jewelry. It might sound funny, but I wouldn't want people to think I am always promoting what I do and my work.
Imagine a regular art dealer. He wouldn't go to an art fair or to a to a dinner party carrying with him a painting or a sculpture. When I go out wearing a jewel from the gallery, I feel like I'm still working, and I don't like that idea. I don't want people to imagine that I'm always trying to sell jewelry. So, in dinner parties, I'm very often the only woman not wearing any piece of jewelry, which is very stupid. But yeah, this is me.
Sharon: That's interesting. Has anybody ever stopped you on the street and said, “That’s a really interesting necklace you have on”?
Esther: Yeah, but not very often because when you see me on the street, I don't have it on me. Of course, on special occasions I do, but I mostly wear artist jewelry in the gallery, and it's a great pleasure to do so. I change every day and wear several of them because it's very important for people to see those jewels on the body. A piece of jewelry on the body is very different from a photo of a jewel. You really need to see how it goes on the neck or on the finger. It really makes it alive.
So, to see me with artist jewelry, you have to come to the gallery. If you see me on the street, you would not really see any artist jewelry on me. I was telling you about collectors and how they are strong-minded, and I’m probably more shy.
Sharon: Well, based on the collection in your gallery, I wouldn't call you shy. I'm curious, when you get dressed in the morning, do you walk to the gallery without anything on and then you put something on when you come to the gallery?
Esther: Well, I have my clothes on, obviously, but I choose clothing that will fit the best with jewelry. I have funny pants and funny shoes, but I always have black or white tops. When you have too much information on a sweater or shirt, sometimes it draws away the attention from the jewel. So, this is something I pay attention to in the morning. This is why I have funny shoes but not funny outfits too much.
Sharon: How do you describe what you do if somebody says, “Well, what do you do?” when you're at a party?
Esther: I have a neighbor who's a great contemporary art gallerist, and he was introducing me to a friend of his a few days ago at an art fair. He said, “This is Esther, and she’s doing the most rare job in the art world.” And I was like, “This is an interesting way of putting what I'm doing.” It's true that I am part of the art scene, yet it's such a tiny niche. This is how he saw and how he described my job.
But I would say that what I do is invite those who never make jewelry because they are sculptors, and I ask these people, who are not jewelry specialists, to make a jewelry piece for the gallery. This is how I like to speak of my job. Otherwise, I say that I'm an artist jewelry editor, but then sometimes you have to give more explanations than just those three words. It doesn't explain well enough. So, to make it more clear, I usually say that I invite those who never make jewelry.
Sharon: Do you consider yourself part of the art scene or jewelry? Are you part of the art world or the jewelry world?
Esther: It’s a tricky question. I'm part of the two, but the artists I work with are not part of the jewelry world. Obviously, they are a part of the art world, and through our collaboration, I bring them to the jewelry world. But I would say I’m maybe 80% from the art world and 20% from the jewelry world.
I think artist jewelry is very interesting because it offers a new perspective on jewelry and contemporary jewelry. Because the artists I work with have nothing to do with jewelry, most of the time they're going to bring something new to the jewelry world, new ideas, new possibility. This is what makes it very interesting for the jewelry world.
At the same time, I think the invitation I make to those artists is also both a challenge and recreation time. It has to be fun and it has to be, for them, a means to work with new material like silver and gold. It's a new experience for them. The invitation also has to feed them, in the way that it has to bring them something new and challenging. Otherwise, it's not interesting for them. I really try to value that new experience for them.
Sharon: That's interesting what you're saying. Do you have to say some of that? Do you have to convince some of the artists that it will be interesting for them?
Esther: When I invite them, I say all those things. I don't even wait for them to need me to convince them. I say it all at once, that my invitation is full of all these aspects. Of course, it's going to be difficult for them to find a good idea, yet I'm here to accompany them, and the goldsmiths that I chose and that I work with are extraordinary people. It's a great gift that I give to artists, to be able to work with these people, because they are fantastic goldsmiths and very interesting people to work with.
Sharon: Do any of the artists ever call you and say, “Esther, I just don't have an idea. I don't know what to do. I've drawn 14 things, and I just don't like them.” What do you do then?
Esther: Yeah, of course. It happens. Sometimes they need a little more time. I don't put any pressure on them. When they're ready, they're ready. Sometimes when they are very focused on an idea that I don't believe too much in, I make a prototype just so that I can show them the prototype and explain to them why I don't think it's strong enough. Sometimes they have to see it for real. This is sometimes something that I do. Okay, you really want to make this? I am going to show you what it looks like, and then we can continue our conversation.
Sharon: Did you ever consider, before you started this or when you were thinking about what to do after the other gallery, did you think about selling a different kind of jewelry?
Esther: No, I'm very busy with the jewels already. There are many contemporary jewelers that come to me, and sometimes I really fall for their work because there are many great contemporary jewelers. But I try to restrain myself. Sometimes I buy a piece for my own pleasure. But the gallery’s story is something different, and I try to remain on that path because there is still a lot to do on it. I want to focus on that story for now.
Sharon: So, you're saying if somebody comes in and shows you something that you don’t think is on the path, let’s say, you might buy it for yourself. You might like it.
Esther: Of course, it has happened. Yeah, it has happened. But I have to tell you that I spend all my money on producing the artist jewels, because I produce myself. I pay the goldsmith who's going to work with the artist, so this is taking a lot of the gallery's budget. I don't have that much money left for buying other kinds of jewelry. But it has happened that I do.
Sharon: Does the artist sign the piece? Do you both sign it, or do you sign it?
Esther: No, no, no, I never sign. It's the artist's signature on it, of course. On certificates, I just add that it has been edited by Galerie MiniMasterpiece.
Sharon: How did you come up with the name of the gallery, MiniMasterpiece?
Esther: It was a conversation with my mother and my stepfather. We were looking for a name, and we wanted it to be linked to the art world more than the jewelry world. MiniMasterpiece is not a bad name. It is a reference to masterpieces, so to art. It has the mini, obviously, so it's a small work of art. But who knows? Maybe in the future I will find another name. But for now, it's this one.
Sharon: It's a great name. I was just wondering how you came up with it. Mini seems very American, or very English and not very French. That's all. That’s why I'm asking.
Esther: Actually, masterpiece is obviously an English name, because we would say in French chef-d'œuvre. But mini is something that is used in French also.
Sharon: Okay. So, the contemporary jewelry. I might do really interesting contemporary jewelry. I don't, but let's say I do, but I don't do pictures and drawings.
Esther: Well, then you're not really what I'm interested in, because I like the idea that there is a movement from another body of work, and a movement from that body of work to jewelry. I like working with non-specialists. I think it makes projects very interesting. To me, this is the story I want to tell, those rare moments when a piece of jewelry is going to be possible for those artists. It's not their specialty. They're not doing this all the time. It remains rare. It's just from time to time. I like that idea.
Sharon: Have they come to you and said, “I want to put gems in this piece,” or has an artist who's making the jewelry said, “I want to put gems”?
Esther: No, very, very rarely because to them, gems are very linked to classic jewelry, to contemporary jewelry, and they don't want to use the same vocabulary. They are more into material and shapes and volumes than in gems.
Sharon: Have you ever had the artists come in and describe their work? Do the artists come to the solo shows that you have and describe the work they do?
Esther: Yeah, during the opening, of course all artists are present. Or if we make a special appointments, of course.
Sharon: So, the artist says, “Yes, I want to make the jewelry for you.” What's the next step?
Esther: The next step is them finding the good idea. Once they have ideas, we start the conversation and we discuss what's feasible, what's not feasible. We keep a few ideas, and then we go to the goldsmith and we discuss with them what's possible. Slowly it builds up. The first thing is the idea.
Sharon: You come to the goldsmith or silversmith to say, “The artist is thinking about doing a loop. Can you do that?”
Esther: No, we go to the goldsmith with a prototype or a maquette. The piece is there already. It's not in silver, it's not in gold, but it exists.
Sharon: Do they ever look at you in surprise, the goldsmith?
Esther: Yes, obviously, but after 12 years, less and less. They're like, “It's going to be very difficult, but it's going to work out.” They are less and less surprised. They know me now, and they know the artist.
Sharon: A few last stray questions. Did you open in the courtyard where you are? Did you open the gallery where you are? Have you moved locations?
Esther: No, I have been here the whole time.
Sharon: And what would you say keeps your attention about jewelry, or artist jewelry, after doing it for so long?
Esther: I think my motivation and my love is still very strong, and maybe stronger and stronger because the artists themselves have new ideas very often. So, the story continues, and I also invite new artists. I have all these parallel collaborations, so it's very enriching for me. Also, the relationship I have with collectors is very nice and very interesting because I am also building with them their collection. We're all growing up together, and this is what makes it very special.
And maybe after 12 years, I'm also doing my job in a better way, with a better understanding of the project and a better understanding of what collectors are expecting. It's still a challenge and it's still a risky business, but I wouldn't do anything else. I wouldn't know what to do. I'm my own boss. I do what I want. I have to carry it all, but it's a great job. I'm very happy with what I do, and being surrounded by all these great artists is fabulous. Also getting that story more well-known and broadening the public for artist jewelry is a fantastic challenge. I love challenges.
Sharon: If you love challenges, you picked a good field for a challenge. Esther, thank you so much for being with us today.
Esther: You for inviting me, Sharon. Thank you very much. I enjoyed very much talking to you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Esther de Beaucé
Esther de Beaucé is the founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, France. MiniMasterpiece is a gallery entirely dedicated to contemporary artists, designers and architects’ jewelry. The gallery is an invitation given to those who usually never design jewelry because their work evolves on a more monumental scale (i.e. sculptures). Esther’s passion is to convince those artists to change the scale of their work and accompany them in that new field of wearable art. She has collaborated with acclaimed contemporary artists such as Phillip King, Bernar Venet, Andres Serrano, Lee Ufan, Jean-Luc Moulène, and Pablo Reinoso.
A graduate of Brown University, Esther previously co-owned the gallery Schirman & de Beaucé in Paris, dedicated to young artists of contemporary art.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
For gallerist Esther de Beaucé, artist jewelry isn’t completely art or completely contemporary jewelry. It’s in a niche all its own—and that’s what makes it fascinating. As founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, she helps fine artists translate their art into jewelry, creating something entirely new rather than a smaller version of their typical work. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she challenges artists to think about their work differently; how interest in artist jewelry has evolved over the years; and why artist jewelry collectors are so open minded. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey, exploring the hidden world of art around you. Because every piece of art has a story, and jewelry is no exception.
Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it's released later this week.
I don't remember how I found out about Esther de Beaucé’s gallery in Paris. It is tucked back in the corner with other galleries. I don't know, unless you are looking for it, if you would find it easily. It was an intentional destination for me both times I've been there. It is very hard to find. I was determined that I was going to find it, and after a little bit of time I did find it. It is a very cozy and comfortable gallery, and Esther herself is easy to talk to.
The gallery specializes in jewelry designed by artists. Some are French, some are Italian, and I'm sure there are others. The prices are very reasonable compared with other shops with jewelry by artists where you find a pretentious atmosphere. Esther speaks English flawlessly, having attended Brown College, and she has been on the podcast before, many moons ago. I'll let her tell you the rest of the story. Esther, welcome to the program.
Esther: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me today.
Sharon: I'm so glad to have you. So, why did you choose to sell jewelry by artists?
Esther: I wanted to work with artists, contemporary artists, because before MiniMasterpiece, I had a first gallery also in Paris, working with young artists on paintings and sculptures and drawings. That gallery had to end, and my obsession was continuing working with artists because I really enjoyed that, that work, but I had to find another way. There are many art galleries in Paris, and I wanted to find a more special way to work with them. I knew of artist jewelry, and there aren’t many places in the world and in Paris, either, for artist jewelry. So, this is how I started. Sorry, I think I said enough.
Sharon: No, please, go ahead.
Esther: So, at first, it was more for the pleasure of working with artists than that of making jewelry. After 12 years, I became very fond of jewelry, of course. I wouldn't say exactly the same thing, but back in time, 12 years ago, it was really my love for artists.
Sharon: It was your love for artists. How was it changing from the drawings and the paintings and all of that to jewelry? Was it natural? Was it different?
Esther: Yeah, it's a challenge for them, of course, when I invite them to think of their work at a different scale. They have to think of the body, which most of the time they never do because when you make a sculpture or a painting or a photograph, obviously it's not to be worn.
But this time it was a big challenge for them and also for me, because 12 years ago I knew little about jewelry making itself. We both had to learn. It was a challenge for them, and it was also a challenge for me. But I knew that it was possible because it's a story that goes back in time for about a century now, with Picasso and Calder and Giacometti, all those great visual artists who made a few wearable art pieces on the side of their main activity.
Sharon: Was it scary for you to start asking artists if they would do their jewelry, if they would make jewelry?
Esther: I started asking those artists I knew personally because they were family friends, or I had worked with them in the past with that former gallery I had. So, I didn't take many risks the first year. Then I got more brave and I started to ask other artists. I only ask those artists where I like the work. I am a big fan of their monumental work. They are mostly sculptors. It's because I like their sculpture, but I think of inviting them to make a sculpture to wear.
Sharon: Do they look at you funny, like, “What are you talking about?” Or, “I don't understand what you mean”?
Esther: Most of them understand the idea. I've had several artists say no, but not that many. Sometimes they even thought about making a jewelry piece but never had the occasion to do so because they need to be surrounded by the good people. Very often they need to be accompanied by a goldsmith because they haven’t mastered the work of gold or silver, so they need help on that matter. But once you invite them and tell them about that great story and how many artists have worked on that subject in the past, and that you can take them to the right goldsmiths that can help them understand their project, then it's much easier for them to accept.
Sharon: And have they ever rejected you and just said, “Forget it. That's weird”?
Esther: Yeah, of course they have. Sometimes it's because they don't get a good idea. Finding the right idea is not that easy. Sometimes they don't have time. Sometimes it's not a good time for them to spend some energy on that project. And of course, I understand that perfectly.
In very, very, very few cases, sometimes they don't take jewelry very seriously. They have that image of jewelry being something not serious. But there are many artists I can invite, and those who don't want to play with me, it's no big deal.
Sharon: Do you leave it to them to decide if it's a bracelet or a ring or a necklace or what they're going to make?
Esther: Yes, of course. I open possibilities for them as wide as they want at the beginning. Then once they have ideas, we talk. Once it gets more precise, if they are going to make only one piece of jewelry, sometimes I advise them to think of a ring or a necklace because they are the most iconic type of jewels. If they have several ideas, then why not add a bracelet or earrings? But if they have to make only one, I usually recommend them to make a necklace. Also, because a necklace leaves more volume and space for them to express themselves. Sometimes it's very difficult for them to condense their work into a very tiny piece. A necklace is bigger.
Sharon: What do you say to them if they say, “Esther, I'm a sculptor. I don't know how to make this small”? What do you say?
Esther: I say that what I'm interested in is the DNA of their work. An idea has no size. Basically, it would be the same as making a very large sculpture. But when they are invited by a museum or a gallery, they are given a space to make. Sometimes they make a sculpture especially for that space, a museum or a gallery. I just tell them, “Well, this time you have to make a piece of a sculpture for the body.” It is just another way of thinking, and artists like to be challenged. It's a very big challenge for them, but they are very often excited by that challenge.
Sharon: Are they doing other things? Are they making the jewelry for your gallery, and they’re working on a sculpture or painting at the same time? It might be a different subject, but I'm wondering.
Esther: Yes. I think they're on different topics at the same time. Also, when they have to think of making a wearable sculpture, sometimes it helps them to think of a new idea for a monumental work. This is something they have said to me on various occasions, that going from big to small and then back to big is also interesting for them. Sometimes it has an impact on how they think big afterwards.
Sharon: You're located in the antique district in Paris, right?
Esther: Yes. Not only antiques. It's called the Carré Rive Gauche. It's a very special geography because it's like a square with about six streets. It's very unique in the world because in that square you have about 120 galleries and antique shops of different specialties. You have contemporary art, you have antiques, you have Chinese art, African art, glass works, silver works. It's very unique to have such a strong—how would you say that—density of art shops.
It’s not like—you know the Marais? The Marais is another district that is very focused on contemporary design and contemporary art. Carré Rive Gauche and Saint-Germain-des-Prés reunites a wider range of art galleries, and I really like that mix. I feel very comfortable in that. It's a very enriching environment.
Sharon: From the beginning did you know that was where you wanted to be?
Esther: Yes, because it's the neighborhood where I grew up, and I'd never had a professional project in that area. And it’s a lovely neighborhood. I love it. A lot of tourists as well still go to Saint-Germain-des-Prés. There aren't many places for rent, and sometimes they are very expensive. This is also why I'm in a courtyard, where you have to find your way through. But once you've been here for the first time, then it's easy to come back. There are many courtyards like this in Paris, and it's also the Parisian charm of finding the remote places. I like that idea.
Sharon: It is very charming, and the Parisian charm is both in your gallery and the courtyard around it. Do you get people stumbling in? Tourists or French people who are just wandering around who find the gallery?
Esther: Yes, of course. I have a sign on the street also. There are actually three different galleries in the courtyard, so we have a sign on the street with the name of the galleries. The large doors are open all day long, and there are many plants. I have random people coming very often, for sure.
Sharon: When did you become attracted to jewelry?
Esther: As a kid, because my mother is a great collector of artist jewelry, and I learned a lot from her. Since I was a kid, I've seen her wearing those weird pieces of jewelry that were artist jewelry only, no stones, no diamonds, only artist jewelry. That was very different from my friends’ mothers, obviously.
So, it was very natural to me, but I never imagined myself being a professional in that area because it was hers. But I found a way of making it mine because she's a collector and I’m an editor. I make new projects. Sometimes when she likes them, she gets them for her collection, but not always. So, I found a way of having my own role in artist jewelry different from hers. But I was really fed by her passion as a kid.
Sharon: Did you think you were going to draw or paint professionally? What did you imagine yourself doing?
Esther: No, I have no artistic talent myself. I really love working with artists and I'm the person next to them, but I have no desire to create myself. Even after 12 years of MiniMasterpiece, I have no desire to make jewelry myself. Artists come up with such great ideas all the time that I really don't have to think about this myself. But they need me for other things, so I'm happy to take care of all the rest.
Sharon: When you say they need you for other things, I was thinking you are creative. You couldn't guide them, right?
Esther: Yes, but I don't have the idea. I know how to make their ideas grow and make it possible, but it's really their work. The starting point is their work and their idea. I make it possible after that.
Sharon: Who decides if it is going to be a limited edition and there are only a few? Who decides how many there are going to be?
Esther: It's a tricky question. I discuss it with the artist, and we take into consideration the costs of their making, obviously. Sometimes it's a series of unique pieces. I've done that on several occasions. So, it's not really an edition; it's a series of 10 unique pieces, for example. Most of the time we make 10 or 12 different numbers of the same piece to stick to what is commonly made in sculptures. So, most of the jewels from the gallery run in an edition of 10 or 12 pieces.
Sharon: You started to say that 30, though, is the limit to call it a limited edition, right?
Esther: Yes, 30 is the maximum for us to call it an original piece of work. Most of the time after 30, it's not an original piece of work. I don't know how you would call it, but it would be just a regular edition. It's very rare that I go above 30. It has happened in the past, because sometimes museum shops call me for a special edition if they have a show of that artist running and they want to have a piece of jewelry in their shops. This is a very special project for me, and in that case, we make a larger edition. But this is very site specific.
Sharon: How do you find the artists? Do you go to parties to look for them? Do you go to galleries? How do you find them?
Esther: I go to art shows and exhibitions for the most time. When I find an artist whose work I like very much, then I try to find a way to contact him or her. But the first thing for me is to grasp and understand and like their work. After that, I try to find a possible way to get in contact with them.
Sharon: Do they ever approach you first?
Esther: Yes, it has happened, of course. There's a great Chinese sculptor in France called Wang Keping, with whom I've had the chance to work for the past four years. I met him at an art fair, and it was a great encounter because he's a fabulous man and a fantastic artist. It was a great, almost random encounter.
Sharon: But he came to you. You looked at his work and liked his work, and he came to you?
Esther: Yes. I was about to go to him, and then we met and he also wanted to discuss with me. So it was a random encounter, and it ended very well.
Sharon: What is the overall state of artist jewelry—well, there are two questions—and art jewelry in France?
Esther: What's the difference for you between artist jewelry and art jewelry?
Sharon: That's an interesting question. I guess artist jewelry is by somebody who, it isn’t their primary medium. They do painting and sculpture, and once in a while they do a pin or a ring or whatever. And the other is jewelers who do different jewelry.
Esther: Yeah. It's their specialty. Making jewelry is their specialty.
Sharon: Yes.
Esther: So, you would call that art jewelry?
Sharon: Yes.
Esther: Okay.
Sharon: I would call both art jewelry. But the artist jewelry—
Esther: Yes. Well, I know of art jewelry, but not as well as artist jewelry, obviously, because only artist jewelry is my specialty. So, I wouldn't be able to speak of art jewelry as well. For artist jewelry, I think it's getting better because there are more editors working on the subject and inviting new artists, so it's more dynamic. It seems that in the 60s and in the 70s, the market for artist jewelry in France and in the world was more dynamic than in the 80s, in the 90s, in the early 2000s. For the past 15 years, maybe, it's getting more dynamic because new editors have started working on the subject.
Museum shows have also taken place thanks to great collectors that are organizing shows on their collections. Books also have come out. So, slowly, I think it's getting more dynamic. But still, it's a story that needs to be explained more, and a lot of people don't know about it yet. So, it's also our mission to explain that story and to tell and to show.
I think it's also the case for art jewelry. There aren't that many galleries and places in Paris that sell art jewels. I'm looking forward to the years to come because I believe it's going to get more and more dynamic.
Sharon: Are the people who come, who assemble on your gallery, are they coming because they think, “Oh, it's jewelry. I want to look at diamonds and pearls,” and you have to explain what it is?
Esther: Yes, all the time. All the time. Sometimes I talk for five, 10 minutes explaining the concept of the gallery, and they look at me and say, “Oh, so you are making the jewelry.” And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I’m not making the jewelry. I invite those who never make jewelry, and I ask them for a special project for the gallery.
So, it takes a lot of energy explaining. Of course, some people know of that story, so it makes it easier for me. But I also like the challenge of getting that story more well-known and convincing women and men that this is also part of the jewelry world. It's not because the piece of jewelry doesn't have stones or diamonds that it's not worth it. Then we talk about value and what makes a jewel precious or not precious. So, it leads to interesting conversation. But it takes a lot of my time explaining that.
Sharon: You said something I have to think about because I'm not sure I’ve thought about it, and that is that artist jewelry is part of the jewelry world.
Esther: Of course.
Sharon: Yeah. If you had asked me 10 minutes ago, I would have said yes, but I really would have had to think about it.
Esther: It’s contemporary jewelry, and contemporary jewelry has different compartments. I don't know how you would say that, but a small part of contemporary jewelry is that of artist jewelry, because it's being made today. So, for me, it's definitely part of it.
Sharon: Do you ever have shows, meaning you take your gallery, the artist jewelry, and you cart it somewhere and show it? Do you put it out for people to look at?
Esther: You mean outside the gallery?
Sharon: Yeah.
Esther: Yes. Several times a year I try to be in fairs. I've never shown in a jewelry fair because I've always want to place the jewelry in a design or contemporary art background. So, I always try to show in design or art fairs, which is not always easy because there aren't that many art fairs, for example, that leave space for art jewelry. So, it's a tricky thing for me, to find a good place outside of the gallery to show that kind of jewelry.
Although artist jewelry is part of art jewelry and contemporary jewelry at large, it's a bit different. I’m trying to connect it. I want the connection with the art and design world to be very strong, more than that of jewelry at large. I want to place it into an art environment as much as possible, so also for fairs.
Sharon: What if you don't like the first drawing or the first couple of drawings of something that an artist shows you for a ring, let's say, or a bracelet? What do you do?
Esther: If I don't like it, it's very often because it doesn't look like them. It's not connected well enough to their work, to what they are. Sometimes the first idea they have is an idea of a jewel, but it's more than just making a jewel. It's making their work into a jewel, you know? So, sometimes the first idea is not the right one, but it's not because it wouldn't make a nice jewel. It would. But you wouldn't recognize their work in that small piece. And it's very important for me that the link is very strong.
But for me, a good artist jewel is not a reduction of a bigger project. This is not very interesting, to make very small exactly what you make in large. It has to be a new project, yet you have to recognize the artist's work. This is the biggest challenge in the making of an artist jewel.
Sharon: I'm thinking, and I can't remember his name, that the Spanish sculptor who makes puzzles. He makes them large and he makes small, little pendants and things like that. He's Spanish.
Esther: Maybe he's Franco-Argentinian, Pablo Reinoso?
Sharon: No, that’s not his name. But has Reinoso been part of your sculptures, your gallery?
Esther: Yes, among many other ones. But, you know, I walked the path of artist jewelry for 12 years, and I've also evolved on that path. What I think today might be different than what I thought in the past, and it's the same for artists. I know their first idea is going to be nice, but maybe it's not going to be as interesting as the second idea or as the third idea. But I also have to respect their rhythm, that it's going to take a bit of time and that they have to grasp the idea of jewelry. Because this is so new to them, you also have to be patient.
Sharon: Do you make the first or second drawing they have, even if you don't like it, and then you wait for them?
Esther: No, I ask them to work hard for the first project as well, but I notice sometimes that the first project is very nice and interesting, yet the second one or the third one or the fourth one is even more interesting because it—how would I say that—it is more demanding. It is maybe less commercial. I have the feeling that the artist and myself have walked that path a bit more as it gets more interesting.
It's also more demanding for the collector. It's really from the artist to the collector. I'm sure you're not the same collector today as you were 30 years ago. And maybe what you choose to wear today or what you assume to wear today is different from many moons ago. I think we all go through that path, and it's very interesting. It doesn't mean that what you make at first is not interesting, but you have to go through all these steps.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ilona Schwippel
Ilona Schwippel has run the gallery Viceversa, in Lausanne, Switzerland, with her husband Christian Balmer for 20 years. She holds a bachelor in product design, jewelry and accessories from the High School of Arts and Design (HEAD) in Geneva and a diploma in luxury creations and artistic crafts from the University of Geneva. Since 2017, Ilona has lectured at the University of Applied Science, in Lucerne, in the XS Schmuck department.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript
Gallerists have a unique position in the jewelry world as the connectors between artist and wearer—and Ilona Schwippel holds sacred this responsibility. As co-owner of jewelry gallery Viceversa in Lausanne, Switzerland, she is always looking for the pieces that resonate with her and her clients. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why jewelry carries the memories of its previous owners; why jewelry gives artists more freedom than any other medium; and how giving context to a piece can change a customer’s perception of it—for better or worse. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
I went on Art Jewelry Forum’s trip to Switzerland to find Swiss jewelers that I didn’t know about. Art Jewelry Forum has an international trip every year, and they’re usually very interesting and very good. There I met Ilona Schwippel and her partner, Christian, who are owners of the gallery Viceversa. Welcome back.
If you see somebody who is interested and keeps looking at the piece, they keep coming back and looking at it, let’s say, do you then explain what the artist was trying to do?
Ilona: If I have the chance, which I think is great and I really appreciate, I tell him the first time, or I tell that person my idea and the context of the piece at the very beginning. It depends on the person sometimes, how open they are at the moment to see what kind of discussion, what kind of dialogue we can have, whether the person wants to hear it or not. This is always very unpredictable.
Sharon: Do you think art jewelry tells a deeper story than other kinds of jewelry?
Ilona: I think so. Yes, absolutely. I also think that a piece of contemporary jewelry tells a very different story to the observer once its worn. It’s a different kind of communication.
Sharon: It’s interesting. It’s probably true that once it’s worn, it tells a different story. Do you concentrate on certain artists? Do they have to be known? Are they up-and-comers? Any particular kind of artist?
Ilona: We have both. Next spring, for example, we will prepare an exhibition with Karl Fritsch. We’ve been working with him for many, many years. Maybe it’s the third or fourth solo exhibition that we’ve done with him. It’s always incredible how he continues to surprise us by only making rings. This is really incredible.
Sharon: Karl Fritsch?
Ilona: Karl Fritsch. For instance, sometimes he works with already existing jewelry, and he interferes; he changes the piece in my eyes. He doesn’t only change the aspect of the piece by enhancing it or by improving the design in a humoristic way, the way they improve the design of very classical pieces with fantastic design. Some of them have just been turning the piece into something else, and they said it was like improving the piece.
With Karl Fritsch, I think he is somewhere else. What I think is really interesting and very touching is that he changes it. For example, he takes an existing ring—each ring has a story. Each ring has its pedigree in terms of ownership. Sometimes you know; sometimes you don’t. Some people want to know; some people absolutely don’t want to know. What I think is interesting in his work is he takes this ancient piece, for example, and he changes the path of this ring. It doesn’t continue its way of living from owner to owner in a straight way. He takes a very sharp, radical turn. All of a sudden, it’s not only the piece that changes; it’s many things. The definition of the owner changes. I think that’s a very interesting part of his work.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear people don’t want to hear what it was originally and what it means today. Why wouldn’t people want to know? Do you have any idea?
Ilona: Maybe they’re just more comfortable with something unknown than to know the stories. They would like to wear the piece, but they don’t want to carry the story of the piece or the story of the ancient owner with them. I think there is a very strong relationship between the owner and jewelry. Some pieces are really marked by the story of the ancient owner. It’s something personal.
There’s this German-Vietnamese philosopher who is talking about objects. They are a souvenir of people, of situations. That’s where he says it’s a dramatic difference between data and tangible objects. I think objects really have the capacity to carry on memories, and I can understand that not everybody is comfortable with that. I think this is an incredible quality of jewelry.
Sharon: If somebody comes to you and they want to exhibit or have their pieces in the gallery, does it matter to you if nobody has ever heard of them if you like the piece?
Ilona: If you like the work, yes. The distinction between pieces of work—as a gallery, we like to build up a long-term relationship with the artists. We love following the work, seeing the evolution of the artist and seeing the new work in relation to the pieces that were there before. If you see only one piece, it’s difficult to read, and it’s difficult to talk about the universe. I think it’s always exciting and important to see the universe, to have a body of work. Not just single pieces, but a body of work that tells a story. Then, if the person is known or unknown, it doesn’t matter. It’s about the quality and the content of this body of work.
Sharon: So, if they want to exhibit in your gallery but they only bring one work or one piece, you tell them to come back and show four or five so you get the connection.
Ilona: Yeah, and it’s also to know about the artist’s aim, about the content of the pieces, to feel the intention of the artist, why he or she did these pieces. Why do these pieces exist? Why was it important to create them? Why do they have to exist?
Sharon: Has it changed your mind when they bring one piece and you think, “Oh, well, that’s not so great,” but then they bring four or five and it’s the connection you see?
Ilona: Yes, absolutely. You can really see a story and also see it more in depth. With one piece, it’s more difficult to see the depth of the intention. If it’s only one piece, it’s less evident, maybe.
Sharon: You operate the gallery with your husband. Do you have a division of labor? Do you look at the pieces and he writes the catalogue?
Ilona: A lot of things we do together. This gallery is something really personal. It’s also incredible that each gallery you visit is so different from the other. It reflects the passion of each gallerist. I think it’s important that Christian and I work together. There are many questions we have to discuss, to talk about the artist, about the pieces and the exhibitions we would like to build up. Inside, we do some tasks separately for sure, but a lot of decisions we have to make together. It’s very enriching to have discussions about artists’ work that we don’t agree on. This is very interesting.
Sharon: Can you walk into different galleries and feel a different—I don’t know what to call it—an air, a different feeling when you go into different galleries? Some of them are passionate and some are more utilitarian, let’s say. Can you tell?
Ilona: I think so, yes. I think it really reflects the gallerist who made this choice. I think it’s important that you see that. It’s not important that you see the difference, but it is important that the choice of the pieces and the works of the artists is something authentic with the gallerist.
Sharon: I guess I skipped a question. I wanted to ask why you like art jewelry.
Ilona: Good question. I think I’m fascinated with the power that pieces have, the power of this non-personal communication. I think there are two aspects. On the one hand, I am aware as a wearer, so I want to make these pieces on my body communicate to the person in front of me. It’s like being a team with this piece of art. We have the same bond; we have the same message to give.
On the other hand, as a gallerist, you have a different view of the piece. There, I see more of a connection to the artist, and I leave it open as to whom it will talk to, who is going to fall in love with it. Sometimes it’s myself. I think it is the content, and it’s something essential in communication.
Sharon: Have you seen a piece that you might want to put in your gallery, but you don’t wear it yourself?
Ilona: Yes and no.
Sharon: It just doesn’t communicate what you want it to communicate.
Ilona: Yes. There are pieces I really love, but I don’t feel this connection when I wear it. I guess this just happens. I think this is healthy.
Sharon: But some other people might still see a connection.
Ilona: Absolutely.
Sharon: Have you ever worked in another gallery?
Ilona: I did work at one when I was in Lisbon. I worked in the gallery at Artefacto3. At the time, it was Tereza Seabra that ran the gallery.
Sharon: Was there a difference in the air or in the feeling of the gallery compared to your gallery?
Ilona: It’s hard to say because at the time, I didn’t have any other experience with galleries, with contemporary jewelry galleries especially. But it was different, and I think that’s important. I think that’s something very important, these differences.
Sharon: When you say contemporary jewelry galleries, it makes me think that in Europe or Switzerland, there are more contemporary jewelry galleries. There are very few in the States. They exist, but there are very few. I wonder if there are more in Europe. I don’t know. Would you say that in the time you studied art jewelry, the market has grown in Europe?
Ilona: I think so. I think it’s also due to the schools. They are very active in communicating. The students are studying the works at the museums that collect, that show the connections, that have exhibitions or design exhibitions where they mix objects and jewelry. I see this as a precious education to make contemporary jewelry become more known by a larger public.
Sharon: Are they doing that on purpose?
Ilona: I think they choose the pieces because they have to be in the exhibition with the content they want to communicate and the pertinence of the piece. Maybe the side effect is that it is an education, that there is educational value in it, but I don’t think this is the first purpose. If we talk about education, it might be a principal purpose when they organize workshops, lectures, guided tours, meeting artists at roundtable discussions, something like that. This is actively finetuned. It keeps the discussion lively and brings people together to talk about these subjects and about this not-very-much-known field.
Sharon: When you talk about it, it sounds very exciting. What is it that’s kept your attention on art jewelry over the years?
Ilona: I think it captures the questions that come from society. If it seems that society is worried about something, they can communicate with the pieces. It’s a very lively art. I think it’s also something exceptional and precious, the freedom that jewelry artists have. They can really do the piece. Most of them can make the piece from the very first moment to the very last moment. So many are capable of finishing the piece all by themselves, which means during the thinking and creation process, they continue to evaluate. I think this is an enormous freedom, and this freedom also gives them a place for really absurd and surrealist things that you would never dream about in the field of jewelry. Jewelry is performance. It is linked so much to the body; it’s linked so much to the lively body, to the vivid communication that is part of the daily performance we do.
Sharon: That is very interesting. Ilona, thank you very much for taking the time to talk with us and to let us know about art jewelry in Switzerland.
Ilona: I’m very happy that we had the chance to talk and that you were curious about our gallery. We were really happy to talk to you in Switzerland. It was great to feel your enthusiasm and this energy you have. Thank you very much.
Sharon: Thank you. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ilona Schwippel
Ilona Schwippel has run the gallery Viceversa, in Lausanne, Switzerland, with her husband Christian Balmer for 20 years. She holds a bachelor in product design, jewelry and accessories from the High School of Arts and Design (HEAD) in Geneva and a diploma in luxury creations and artistic crafts from the University of Geneva. Since 2017, Ilona has lectured at the University of Applied Science, in Lucerne, in the XS Schmuck department.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript
Gallerists have a unique position in the jewelry world as the connectors between artist and wearer—and Ilona Schwippel holds sacred this responsibility. As co-owner of jewelry gallery Viceversa in Lausanne, Switzerland, she is always looking for the pieces that resonate with her and her clients. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why jewelry carries the memories of its previous owners; why jewelry gives artists more freedom than any other medium; and how giving context to a piece can change a customer’s perception of it—for better or worse. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Many of you know that I went on Art Jewelry Forum’s trip to Switzerland to find Swiss jewelers that I didn’t know about. Art Jewelry Forum has an international trip every year, and they’re usually very interesting and very good. There I met Ilona Schwippel and her partner, Christian, who are owners of the gallery Viceversa. The gallery has a mix of up-and-comers as well as those who are familiar names. They’re located in the center of Lausanne. It’s a great place to be located because there’s a lot of foot traffic. People must stop in the store never having heard of it, but they are attracted by the windows. I was really taken with the name of the gallery, which is Viceversa, and thought about what it could mean. Since I couldn’t come up with anything on my own, I’ll let Ilona tell you. Ilona, welcome to the podcast.
Ilona: Hi Sharon. Thank you so much for this wonderful invitation.
Sharon: I’m glad you’re here.
Ilona: Actually, to explain the name, I have to talk about the story of Viceversa gallery. Christian Balmer —actually my husband; we’re married—opened a small gallery in 1991. A couple of years later, in 1998, with a colleague, they opened a new store, a new gallery. All of a sudden, there existed these two stores. It was like vice versa—one of them in the other store. That’s why when I’m talking about organizing and summing up this whole project, each of them came up with the word, vice versa and vice versa. So, they stuck to the name and selected it for the new gallery.
I came to Lausanne. We had met a couple of years before. At the time, I was still living in Lisbon. I’m a jewelry maker, and I had an internship, a practice, in Tel Aviv with an Israeli jewelry maker. During a show we had in Basel, Christian came as a visitor, and that’s how we met. It was a professional meeting.
Sharon: I was surprised because in reading about it, the name of the gallery had been around for a long time, it seemed.
Ilona: Yes, this year in November, in three weeks, we will celebrate 25 years of the galleries.
Sharon: Wow! It’s a hallmark. There are not many galleries that can say that. So, you’re married. My next question was why did you and Christian decide to have the gallery together, your own art gallery? You are married. You studied in Lisbon?
Ilona: I did an apprenticeship. I started doing an apprenticeship in jewelry making with a master, as you can do in many places. It’s quite usual to do that. Also, in order to find my own way of working, of thinking, of seeing things, I wanted to go abroad and feel the edges, feel the limits, and go beyond them. I had chosen Lisbon to experience this new context and to work there as an independent jewelry maker and designer. Since there is a very good school, I had the chance to participate in several workshops. It was my first contact with contemporary jewelry at the time.
Once in a while, I had questions that I didn’t find the answers to. I was seeking dialogues. So, I saw in a magazine at the time an article about this Israeli jewelry maker, and I thought, “Well, these are the forms, the look he puts on jewelry and on the wearer.” I think it really taught me, even at that point. So, I got in contact with her. I did an internship with her for three months, and that’s when we prepared the exhibition. At the exhibition, they were paying her a visit.
Sharon: You said that was your first contact with contemporary jewelry, in Lisbon?
Ilona: Yeah, I would say so. I had a wonderful master to follow through my apprenticeship, very extraordinary pieces, only one-of-a-kind pieces. That was something completely spectacular and very generous. He is a wonderful person. I’m very grateful that I could work with him, that I could have this first contact with jewelry with him. But if you have such a strong master, it’s really important to find your own way of working, your own way of seeking, of questioning, to have your critical eye on your own work. It was important to me to go abroad and do something completely different, to jump into the cold water and to find my own task.
Sharon: Were you able to do that in going abroad?
Ilona: I guess so, yes. It was great. It was a wonderful time there, very special. It was the first time I was really imposing some limits or—how do you say—subjects and restrictions. I gave myself restrictions in my work to make it go to the essence of what I wanted to do, where I wanted to go while working, just getting step-by-step closer to what I really seek.
Sharon: Up until that time, did you look at antique jewelry, vintage jewelry, other kinds of jewelry?
Ilona: Yes, I did. I always thought it was really beautiful and touching, the care that was put into these incredible pieces and what they represented, not only for the person who wore it, but also for the people who saw it. It has this important symbolism, this important status, and this non-verbal communication to really tell things about yourself and your status with pieces.
I needed this freedom that jewelry can offer, or that the material and the body can offer, to seek something else. I thought it was beautiful and I appreciated it, but it was not really an inspiration. For example, my master, when I did the apprenticeship, was working with incredible stones. It was very spectacular and colorful and joyful. To find my own way, and so I didn’t continue doing his work, I restricted myself by saying, “Don’t do pieces with stones. No stones.” That was maybe my first restriction.
Sharon: So, you didn’t do anything with stones until now.
Ilona: Yes.
Sharon: Did he use a lot of stones?
Ilona: Yeah, incredible. It’s very colorful, exceptional stones. Like many stone cutters, like the most knowing ones, the most famous ones, they have with the most exceptional stones, first of all. His studio designed the very best stones, and then they went to other places. So, it was really old and very big.
Sharon: Do you show the stuff your master does in the gallery?
Ilona: Quite a while ago, we did a group exhibition and he was invited. He participated, and that was really nice.
Sharon: Do you have different kinds of exhibitions of jewelers that you didn’t know before you picked them for your exhibitions?
Ilona: Yeah. For example, for the 25th anniversary, we worked with five great artists of 25 years, five very exceptional artists. The first man is Sigurd Bronger, a Norwegian artist, who had a solo show at the in Munich in the spring of 2024. So, they were very excited that he’s in the show. He’s from Norway. Katrin Feulner from Germany, and a Korean artist, Ji Hee Hong, also someone we never worked with before.
Eric Loubser from South Africa is the only we’ve already worked with. In 2021, we organized a big double exhibition which was called Tangible Dialogue with 11 Japanese artists that are based in Japan. These 11 artists showed their work here in Lausanne. That was a wonderful, great exhibition. It was a very nice event. The year after, 11 Swiss jewelry artists were showing their work in Tokyo. So, we had this double exhibition, and that was where we had the first contact with Shinji Nakaba. So, we’re really happy that he’s in the show for 25 years now.
Sharon: Wow! What were your trepidations? Were you nervous about having people in the show that you hadn’t worked with before?
Ilona: That’s a very good question. It’s very exciting. We are really looking forward to setting up the show and organizing everything and then celebrating. Once you get the parcel and open it, it’s always this incredible discovery. If it’s the first time you’ve worked with somebody and you discover the piece, if it’s the first time you’ve touched it, you can see that it’s round and see the volume and the details, it’s always a very special moment. It’s very emotional.
Sharon: How do you find all these people?
Ilona: Schmuck in Munich. We’re so lucky, and I guess the whole jewelry world is so lucky, that it exists with such great enthusiasm and this great dynamic, and also this incredible quality. I think this is something very exceptional. Then we go see exhibitions abroad, like in Paris, to have a look at jewelry. This is always interesting to see artists that are not yet known, to discover talents. I think also that AJF is a great platform to discover, to get information. It is really fantastic. Yeah, there are different channels.
Sharon: Do you have to go out to find these people or do they come to you?
Ilona: Both.
Sharon: Both? How do they come to you, with photos?
Ilona: Either they come directly to the gallery or they email us, or we know each other. They talk to us in Munich. Different ways exist, but I would say mostly it’s by email because people are informed. They inform themselves; they read. Also, there’s Instagram. It’s the same, either Instagram or email.
Sharon: That’s interesting, Instagram. Did you have a slowdown during Covid? I don’t know how it was in Switzerland.
Ilona: Yes, we did. We had a shutdown twice. This was the first lockdown we had. We had moved into our new place and had our first exhibition to celebrate this new gallery, which was the exhibition with these 11 wonderful Japanese artists. Then a couple of weeks together, boom, it was a lockdown. It was really hard. Even though we couldn’t open the gallery, we came every day. Of course, there was a lot of email and things to do, but I had the impression that without the clients, without these people passionate about art jewelry, that the pieces were all orphans. They needed us to look at them and touch them, to manipulate them. That was a very strong feeling. So, we came and started to organize the next exhibition. It was also to have the artists keep believing in it. Yeah, it was really terrible.
Sharon: How do you decide which exhibitions you’re going to have?
Ilona: What is really important for us is always the fact that we have to be touched by the work. It’s a great pleasure for us to show this work, and we really look forward to proudly presenting it to our public. I think it’s a very important point to believe in the work and to be able to transmit that to the visitors. I see our work as governance. I see it as the link between the artist and the person that will fall in love with the piece. Without us, they might not meet. We can also give peace. We talk about the pieces; we talk about the artists. We give people peace to read the piece, to find details, to read the details of the piece and to see it in a certain context that was wanted by the artist. I think it’s important to have this emotional contact.
Sharon: We didn’t have that much time to spend at your gallery. Do you think there are pieces that people like, but you tell them what the artist meant, and they look at it in a totally different way? Somebody once said they have to meet the artist first, which I don’t believe in, but they said that. I have to like the piece. That’s important to me, but if somebody explained what they were trying to say, that might be different.
Ilona: I guess so. Every artwork, if you have the title or you see it in a certain context, like an exhibition with a theme or a subject, then you look differently at the piece. You read it differently. I think it can change the perception in both ways. It can make you more open towards the piece. It can also repulse you, because maybe it’s a story or a context that is not what you feel comfortable with. So, both ways exist.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gabi Veit
Gabi Veit is an Italian artist and jewelry designer with a passion for spoons. She lives and works in Bozen/Südtirol/Italia and in Aesch/Zürich/Switzerland. Having grown up in South Tyrol, she creates jewelry that celebrates the rough and jagged shapes and outlines of her home country’s rocks and mountains. Her unique spoons surprise the beholder with unusual shapes borrowed from plant life.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A spoon is one of the most basic objects we have: a line and a circle, designed for everyday use. In this simplicity, jewelry artist Gabi Veit saw a world of possibilities. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she started making spoons; why no two of her spoons are alike, even in a set; and why she is living proof that it’s never too late to study jewelry and design. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Gabi Veit’s work is definitely different than any other you will encounter. She makes jewelry, yes, but for the past few years, she has been very taken with spoons. It’s for a variety of reasons that I will let her tell you about. Welcome back.
Does the museum advertise your work? Do they promote it?
Gabi: Yes, they do. It’s not only my work in this case. There are 50 other artists who are showing their work. This exhibition is made to show the clients, the people, what’s happening now, what artisans and artists are doing at this moment. There are museums for applied art which are doing this. It’s a nice, ambient atmosphere there.
Sharon: Do you ever feel a little envious of what other people are doing? Do you look at their work and think, “I should try that”?
Gabi: It’s very interesting. Maybe because I started so late. I started with jewelry when I was 40. When I entered into this exhibition, when I had the possibility to have this exhibition, it was more, “Oh look, what does she do?” I’m in a wonderland when I’m exhibiting with colleagues, and I’m happy to have the opportunity to be part of this community. I’m more happy than envious. No, I’m not envious. I’m not an envious woman, I think.
Sharon: You don’t seem like you are. You were in advertising and graphic design before this. What made you decide to go into jewelry?
Gabi: I always wear jewelry. I always loved jewelry. When I was 26, I was always thinking about doing an apprenticeship in my region, but they said, “No, you are 26. You are too old to do that.” I believed I was too old, and I did my work. I also founded a theater in my hometown. I was completely—how can say it—I was most happy with my life. There were so many nice things going on in my life that I somehow forgot this wish. Then this wish came again, and I started giving workshops. I was thinking, “Oh, I need to know more. I need to learn the techniques.” So, I went to Florence. I was there for three years at Alchimia to study contemporary jewelry.
Sharon: When you say you gave workshops, did you give workshops in design or jewelry?
Gabi: I was a student of workshops.
Sharon: Oh, O.K.
Gabi: Now, I give workshops, but then I was the student.
Sharon: I read that in 2016, you gave a workshop in Edinburgh with two other Italians.
Gabi: No, this was a symposium. We were invited. Maria Garza, Gigi Mariani and I were invited to go to Edinburgh to meet other artists and to work together for one week. It was an interesting experience for all of us. Then we worked for a year at home, and then we made an exhibition about our experience.
Sharon: What was interesting about the experience? What was interesting to you?
Gabi: For me, it was very interesting that we went to the sea on the first day together. I noticed all the others were familiar with the waves and the sea. I had a lot of respect for the water, and I was also noticing that the water was bringing something. It was bringing shells and also garbage. You can stay there and the water brings you treasures, but if you grow up in the mountains, treasures are never floating directly on your feet. When you are in the mountains, you have to climb them. When you go down, you have to do it by yourself. I was like, “Oh, wow! There is another way to get inspiration.”
Sharon: Did you make some spoons from that idea?
Gabi: I made spoons out of shells I found there.
Sharon: What did they get out of it? What do you think they saw, Gigi Mariani and the other person?
Gabi: It was not the first moment, but it was a very intense moment for us Italians that the sea was also bringing refugees and dead refugees. Gigi and Maria Garza were dealing with these arguments, with these dead bodies and with these people who have the hope to get a better life that sometimes die in the sea. That was their way to look at the sea in this moment.
Sharon: You also make bowls. Two bowls of jewelry, I mean.
Gabi: Yeah.
Sharon: Do your bowls ever go with the spoons? Do you make a set?
Gabi: I’ve never made a set until now. They are good to combine, but I never did it as a combination from the moment I started.
Sharon: Has anybody that collects your things ever commissioned you and said, “I want five spoons and six bowls,” like a dinner set?
Gabi: No, that would be so nice. Please, if I received that, I would like to do that.
Sharon: You would do it?
Gabi: Yes, sure. That’s very interesting. Maybe I can tell the person that the pieces I make are not always the same. If you say, “I want to have 12 spoons,” they are not completely the same. Maybe they are a family, but like in a family, there are different characters. My work is all about unique pieces and not multiples.
Sharon: Do you ever tell people when they say, “What should I do with this? Do you hang it around your neck or a belt or something?” Do they hang it on a wall?
Gabi: Yes, there are a lot of people who say, “Oh, it’s so nice, this spoon. It could be a brooch.” Then I say, “No, sorry, that’s not a brooch, it’s a spoon. If you want to have this as a brooch, I would make it again, not in a spoony way, but in a brooch way. So, it becomes a real brooch, not only an object with—"
Sharon: A pin or something.
Gabi: Yeah. The spoon is born as a spoon. A spoon is a spoon is a spoon. There are people who put my spoons on the table only to look at them, but also on the wall. That happens.
Sharon: Do you have to hold yourself back if you think, “Well, I should polish it more.” A lot of your stuff is oxidized or it’s rough. Do you think, “I should polish it to make it shine”?
Gabi: I never polish. I really don’t polish, never, never. I know that in tableware, traditional spoons are shiny. But when they are made out of silver or sterling silver, they never could stay this shiny because they will oxidize anyhow. It’s impossible to get silver always in the same color and always shiny. I don’t want to go against the material. I like this Japanese idea of beauty, wabi-sabi, where the beauty is not made out of a perfect thing, but it’s made when an object is used, when an object maybe has an error, when an object oxidizes or has a part which is more shiny on one side. I really like this way to treat my work.
Sharon: Did you study in Japan?
Gabi: No. I would like to go to Japan.
Sharon: I know you’ve studied at different places. Where else have you studied besides Switzerland and Italy?
Gabi: I never studied in Switzerland. I studied graphic design in Austria. I studied graphic design also in Venice, in Italy, and then in Florence. I was not in other countries. In Germany, I did some workshops, but no other studies.
Sharon: When people ask you to do workshops, do they want you to show how to do the spoons?
Gabi: They are interested in working with wax, which I show them. There are so many different ways to treat wax. When the outcome is a spoon, I’m happy, but when the outcome is—I don’t know—a necklace part, a ring or an object, that’s also O.K. The participants of my workshop come with different ideas, and this is what I like. Maybe they are intrigued by my spoons or by my jewelry pieces, but it’s about their language and not about my language.
Sharon: Have you ever inspired somebody who has been told they were too old to do it, and then they went on and did it anyway because you went against the grain? Do you ever meet anybody who was told they’re too old to change fields—or not to change fields, but to do this and you’ve inspired them? You’ve said, “No, that’s not true.”
Gabi: I always say to everyone, “It’s not true.” I think you can do everything when you want. It doesn’t need to be radical. It can be an hour a day or an hour a week. You can achieve change or achieve things in many different ways.
Sharon: Why do you say that a spoon is a subject of experimentation and interaction? You’ve said that. Why is that?
Gabi: For me, the spoon is a big field of experimentation. There are moments when I’m having a hike or a walk and I see a spoon everywhere. Somehow, a tree is a spoon formally. It’s about my imagination and what I can see in whatever I watch. I also think the spoon theme is not finished. It never finishes because there are so many possibilities. Maybe that could be an explanation.
Then, for me, spoons are needed for cooking and scooping and eating. Eating in itself is an interaction and communication. I think the best way to talk to each other is to sit around the table and eat together. I’m sure there is at least one spoon.
Sharon: That’s true. What’s the largest? Have you ever made a spoon for a tureen, something large?
Gabi: I’ve made very small pieces, like three centimeters, and also very big ones like, 30 centimeters.
Sharon: What was your attraction initially to the spoon you were designing and advertising? What did you see in the spoon?
Gabi: I think it’s a very simple tool. Maybe it’s one of our first tools that humankind uses. Somehow, our hand is the bowl and our arm is the handle. We have our own spoons with us, but when it’s too hot or too cold, we need a tool. I think from the beginning, people did their own tools, their own spoons. This is so primary, so easy, so simple, which I love very much.
Sharon: Is that what keeps you going? That the spoon, the art jewelry, is never finished? You use a different spoon for everything.
Gabi: Yeah, I think so. I would never do a fork, and I would never do a knife. That’s not interesting for me. The spoon somehow is more interesting.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I didn’t even think of a different tool for you. Would a fork be too difficult?
Gabi: I would find a way to do it, but I’m not interested. I think this simple form attracts me much more than the spikey tree or the five spikes of a fork. I don’t know. It’s not so inspiring for me.
Sharon: Gabi, thank you for being here today and for explaining. It’s a whole table of spoons, and they’re really unusual. I really appreciate your being here today.
Gabi: Thank you very much.
Sharon: Thank you. Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gabi Veit
Gabi Veit is an Italian artist and jewelry designer with a passion for spoons. She lives and works in Bozen/Südtirol/Italia and in Aesch/Zürich/Switzerland. Having grown up in South Tyrol, she creates jewelry that celebrates the rough and jagged shapes and outlines of her home country’s rocks and mountains. Her unique spoons surprise the beholder with unusual shapes borrowed from plant life.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A spoon is one of the most basic objects we have: a line and a circle, designed for everyday use. In this simplicity, jewelry artist Gabi Veit saw a world of possibilities. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she started making spoons; why no two of her spoons are alike, even in a set; and why she is living proof that it’s never too late to study jewelry and design. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Gabi Veit’s work is definitely different than any other you will encounter. She makes jewelry, yes, but for the past few years, she has been very taken with spoons. It’s for a variety of reasons that I will let her tell you about. She grew up in an area which I would call rough, in that the landscape is rough. It is filled with jagged edges, which I think you will see in her jewelry and spoons. Her work also calls on the organic with branches and leaves incorporated in her work. Gabi also has an unusual perspective on the world. She’s the first person to show me a PowerPoint without having a PowerPoint, which is very interesting and creative. Gabi, welcome to the podcast.
Gabi: Thank you very much for having me.
Sharon: I’m so glad you’re here. Gabi is talking to us from Switzerland, right?
Gabi: Yeah.
Sharon: I’m not familiar with the Dolomites. You were born there and you return on a regular basis. Can you tell me about them and how they influenced your jewelry?
Gabi: Yes, I’m sitting in Switzerland now, but my home base—I was born in Italy, in the Dolomites. I grew up in the outskirts of Bolzano, which is a city with 100,000 inhabitants. The mountains surround the city completely. If you wanted to, you could take three different cable cars to go up to the mountains. I saw mountains every day, always, and we went hiking every weekend. Somehow the mountains for me, the Dolomites, are my home. They symbolize vastness and mightiness. They are powerful and dangerous somehow, but they are also cozy for me. I am familiar with these mountains.
Sharon: Did you have to take cable cars most places you went, let’s say to school or the grocery store?
Gabi: No, the city is down at 250 meters. My city is very hot in the summer, so to escape this heat, you take a cable car and go up 1,000 meters in 12 minutes. Then you are in a nice, warm but not hot area with forest and with animals. The city is like a city, but it’s surrounded by mountains, and these mountains are very near. You can’t not see them, so I am used to orienting myself by looking at the mountains. I know one is in the east; the other is in the north. I’m completely lost when I don’t have mountains around.
Sharon: Can you tell us what influenced your development of spoons? It’s so unusual.
Gabi: Not really. The spoon thing started with—I have two stories. One is that I like to eat and I like to cook, so you need a spoon at least. You need more than one spoon to eat and cook. The other story is that I was in South America. After this trip, I showed a friend my treasures that I brought with me, and she said, “Oh, you are collecting spoons now.” I denied it, but she replied, “But look, there are seven spoons, and seven spoons is a collection.” So, I started to be interested in the spoon as an object, and I started to collect the spoons. Now I have more than 800 pieces.
I started as a collector, not as a maker. I was looking everywhere for spoons: at the market, at the flea market. My collection of spoons is out of wood and metal and plastics and glass and bone and horns. It’s so interesting to see how spoons are used. They have holes when you need to take olives out of the salamoia. They are big or small. It depends on the purpose. That was my entrance into the spoon world.
Sharon: You said that it’s very simple. It’s an elementary shape. What makes your spoons so unusual? What’s different about your spoons?
Gabi: I think when I started to do spoons, I was not aware that my spoons were special. I was driven first to understand how I can do spoons. Normally, when I don’t know where or how to start, I start with a restriction. As I like to eat, as I told you, and as I also like to observe people, I noticed that people have different behaviors when they eat. Someone eats very fast; the other looks more at the plate of his neighbor and not at his plate. I was thinking that maybe I should start doing spoons for people that have strange behaviors.
As I grew up in an area where Catholicism was very strong, for me, it was simple to think about the seven deadly sins, because they concentrate all behaviors in seven ways. So, I started to explore these seven sins. I was driven by finding a solution for a spoon which doesn’t help you eat well somehow. I think when someone wants it all and wants it all now, maybe you don’t eat very well; you don’t have the pleasure to eat. I did this research for one year. I did a lot of forms which were not completely perfect for this aim, but they were beautiful. That was the starting point to get a lot of different forms.
For sure, there is a second very important thing for me. That’s nature. So, on the one side is the behavior of people, and on the other side there is nature, which I also observe a lot. As I grew up in a plant nursery, I am very familiar with growing and with how a plant finds its way to get its fruits somehow. Maybe I’ve been observing plants since I was a child.
Sharon: But there are spoons that have leaves; they have twigs; they have all kinds of natural things.
Gabi: Yeah, they have. It’s all looking. I can also explain, as you said before, the spoon is a very simple tool. It’s made of one line and one circle. The circle is the bowl and the line is the handle, but nobody tells me that a circle has to be round or a line has to be straight. When I started to think about this, I was able to make a lot of variation. This is also a way to start from a very simple form. It’s easier to find a lot of variations.
Sharon: Have you made a spoon with a square or a different kind of bowl?
Gabi: Yeah.
Sharon: Did you develop these theories from the beginning of making spoons, or did they come to you as you were developing spoons?
Gabi: Both. Somehow by observing a spoon, observing how I take it in my hand and how I put it in my mouth, every day I do research on the spoon. There are theories I read and there are experiences I made. That’s a long process because I started collecting in 2001 and started making in 2006. So, there is a long experience in dealing with this tool.
Sharon: I read somewhere that you incorporate stones in everything. Is that true?
Gabi: Not really. If you mean a precious stone, I don’t use stones. I don’t use precious stones. When I go for a walk, I always pick up stones. I’m happy to see a nice stone, but maybe in my jewelry, I make my own stones.
Sharon: In your necklaces and your rings, you make your own stones. What do you mean?
Gabi: I normally work with wax. This is my main material. When I work with wax, I can form it in different ways. I can cut; I can carve it. Somehow, I carve my stones. I cut my stones, but afterwards they are cast in metal. There are only two stones I use in my jewelry. One is the garnet from my region, which I incorporate in my jewelry. For two or three years I have used rough diamonds for my jewelry, not for my spoons. My spoons are always without stones, but the jewelry has these two stones sometimes.
Sharon: The garnets from the Dolomite region, are they red? Are they green?
Gabi: They are red.
Sharon: I didn’t see any stones in any of your work that you showed.
Gabi: I did a collection. The name is Rose Garden. In my hometown, you look at the mountain of the Dolomites, the name of which is Rose Garden. When the sun goes down in the evening, it becomes pink. There is an old legend that a king lived there in this rose garden, and that he kidnapped a princess because he was in love with her. He wanted to have her in his palace, but she didn’t want to, so he kidnapped her. Her brother and other knights found her only because they knew he had a rose garden. The rose garden somehow gave them the direction and they were able to liberate her. The king was so mad about his rose garden that he said, “You will never bloom again, neither by day nor by night,” but he forgot the morning and the evening. So, these mountain blooms glow really pinkish in the evening. It’s beautiful. Somehow the garnets I found in my region in South Tyrol, they also have this red shine. So, I called this collection Rose Garden.
Sharon: If you pick up a regular stone, a rock stone, do you come home and throw it in a drawer and say, “Maybe I’ll use it someday”? Or do you have an idea?
Gabi: Not yet. There are some collections based on the form of a stone, maybe. You can see that. But in this moment, I’m not so into these stones, I think. But it’s also true that next year on, I want to do a new collection, and I have no idea where it will go. So, maybe our talk brings me to the stones. I don’t know.
Sharon: Can you make your own stones? Do you ever make a stone out of wax?
Gabi: Yeah. There are different possibilities to make stones.
Sharon: What do people use your spoons for?
Gabi: My spoons are not spoons for the mouth. They are spoons to take sugar from a bowl and to put it in your cappuccino, your tea. My spoons are used for seeds, for pepper, for chili, for all these things you take from one bowl to your plate or to your bowl. I have one client, one collector, who has a different spoon for every use. He doesn’t buy the spoon he likes. When he comes to my exhibition, I notice quickly which spoon he likes most, but only until the moment he knows for which purpose he can use it, he won’t buy it. He always finds a purpose, and that’s very good for him.
Sharon: Do you know because he’s happier or he smiles? How do you know he found the one he likes?
Gabi: It’s very interesting. He’s very silent. He looks and watches for five minutes, 10 minutes, and then he takes one spoon and another. I notice when he finds one or when he falls in love somehow. It’s really nice to observe that.
Sharon: Where do you share your spoons? At your workspace, or do you take them on the road?
Gabi: I take them on the road. Normally, I create exhibitions in museums. There are some museums in Germany, in Leipzig and in Hamburg, where there are fairs in the museum, very nicely created. There I show my work.
Sharon: That’s interesting.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Esther Brinkmann
Esther Brinkmann is an independent jewelry maker living and working in Switzerland. Her work has been exhibited in galleries throughout the world and is held in the collections of the National Museum of Switzerland, Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris, Museo Internazionale delle Arti Applicate Oggi (MIAAO) in Torino, and the V&A in London. She established the Haute École d’Art et de Design (HEAD) in Geneva, the first jewelry education program of its kind in the country.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Jewelry artist Esther Brinkmann makes her rings with intention, considering everything from the meaning of the material used to the way the shape of the ring will change how the wearer moves their hands. She has passed this perspective down to hundreds of students at the Haute École d’Art et de Design (HEAD), the jewelry program she founded in Geneva. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how living in China and India made her question her identity and influenced her work; why many of her rings are designed to fit different sized hands; and what makes the relationship between artist and wearer so special. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
I recently went to Switzerland with Art Jewelry Forum. One of the afternoons we had was at Esther Brinkmann’s home. It was a very memorable lunch and afternoon. We got to see her studio, and on top of that, we had an unforgettable luncheon cooked by her husband, Warner. Welcome back.
Do you think you were taken by the design, the motifs and everything, because you’re a designer? For instance, would I be taken by it?
Esther: You would be marveled by all these beautiful things, and you would love to buy these things, but maybe you would not have the desire to do your own designs, whereas I immediately got the desire to introduce these new inspirations. I was really stimulated to introduce these things in my own designs and to evolve to develop new ideas.
Sharon: For those of us that were interested in the enamel rings, I think you said we had to be careful if we dropped them or banged them. They were like glass.
Esther: Yeah, enamel is a glass-like material. It certainly it is not the best idea to make rings with enamel, but I could not resist. As I love rings, I just had to do a few of those rings. This was a period when I did realize maybe 20 of those rings, but they are difficult to sell because they are difficult to wear. You have deal with them very carefully.
Sharon: What other jewelry did you make while you were there?
Esther: In India, besides these enamel rings, besides this collaboration, I also started to do pieces with some stones. I discovered, for instance, the polki diamond in India. You can find it only in India. It’s a diamond; let’s say it is not the best quality. It’s a piece of diamond with many, many cracks. They split it into very thin plates, very roughly faceted, not as we have the idea of a diamond with many, many facets. It is a very flat stone with a lot of cracks. It looks like broken ice or something like that. I love this kind of diamond. I started to make rings with that. I also started to purchase a number of not very precious stones, like peridots or topaz, etc. I started to introduce stones as a color element in rings especially.
Sharon: They call them polki diamonds? How would you spell that?
Esther: P-O-L-K-I. This might be the Hindi word for this specific diamond, but when you put it on Google, you can find it.
Sharon: That’s interesting. From what you’re describing, it’s what we consider Indian diamonds. Along with the monograph that was put out by Arnoldsche for some of your exhibits, you also have a book that just came out about your jewelry.
Esther: Yes.
Sharon: A lot of it describes jewelry provoking feelings or provoking people. Could you talk about that a little? How do you see it provoking people?
Esther: I think this is the main reason why I am so interested in jewelry, because jewelry is something I create. I make a piece that has a relationship to a body, to a person. I don’t know who the person wearing my piece will be. That depends on my practice. I work with galleries, but I create a piece with the idea that another person will choose it, and this person will wear it. This person will be like an ambassador of what I have created. This person will adopt what I have created for herself. She or he will wear it and show it, will translate it to others around her or him.
That is a very special thing, a very special relationship between an artist and a customer or a collector. When you buy a sculpture, the sculpture will have a relationship to a space, to your garden or your living room, but a piece of jewelry is something very intimate. When a collector buys something I have created, it’s not mine anymore. I am absolutely comfortable and very at ease with this idea, to give this away. What I know and what makes it so rich is that this person will adopt something and use it as an intimate mirror of her thoughts, of her emotions, of her mind, of her attitude. I think this is a very special thing. The piece of jewelry influences our gestures, especially the big rings. They influence our gestures. They influence our body language. We experience our body in a different way when we wear a piece of jewelry.
Sharon: Any piece or are you talking about larger, significant pieces?
Esther: No, any piece, any. I’m talking now about any piece.
Sharon: Oh, wow! That’s something to think about. You mentioned that you make the rings in gold and jade and silver. Do they have different meanings, the different materials?
Esther: Absolutely. I think any material has its own meaning. Of course, gold, silver and jade are so-called precious materials. They are considered by everybody as precious. I like them not because they are considered precious worldwide, but I like to work with them because of other qualities. For instance, gold and silver are very plastic materials. You can hammer volumes out of a flat sheet of gold or silver. You cannot do this with a simple hammer and iron, for instance, but gold and silver have these plastic qualities.
Then, of course, the color is a very important aspect. The weight of silver is very tender. Yellow gold is much stronger. I also know that silver is linked in many, many cultures to the moon and the feminine, and gold is linked to the sun and to the male aspect in us. Whether we know it or not, it is like an ancestral knowing that is within us and that we can feel. That’s also why different people are attracted by different materials. Not everybody likes to wear gold. Not everybody is able to have a big ring made of gold because it’s a statement you make.
Sharon: Do you think you’re influenced in these thoughts by your living abroad or living in different cultures?
Esther: I think so, yes. Of course, I learned a lot. For instance, jade has a strong symbolic meaning in China and for the Chinese culture. It’s a very strong material, which we may not understand immediately, only if we learn about it. I think living in other areas of the world, you become sensitive to how different materials are used. As a person who likes to transform material into something, into an object, or to transform very simple materials like a thread or a string into something precious, into something which has a specific character, it gives you another relationship to different materials. I choose my materials very consciously by what I want to transmit as a feeling.
Sharon: Would you call yourself a jeweler?
Esther: Yes, absolutely. I’m a jewelry maker, yes.
Sharon: I guess a jewelry maker is different than a jeweler. I have my own understanding of what a jeweler is. You’re a jewelry maker.
Esther: I have to say English is not my language. I might not make the difference between jeweler and jewelry maker. I know the difference between a jewelry maker and a designer. I’m not a designer because I make things myself. I create and I make. I realize things myself. So, I’m not a designer. I don’t consider myself a designer.
Sharon: What possessed you to start a whole department in Geneva, a jewelry department at the university there?
Esther: That was a very happy, glad circumstance. It was in the beginning of 1980. Switzerland joined the European Space for Higher Education. Art schools and schools for applied arts were things then, not universities. They had no universities for art. In the beginning of 1980, we joined the European Space for Higher Education. At the school where I studied between 1974 and 1978, and where I started to teach in 1982, we, the teachers, were asked to make a proposal for a new education program.
At that time, I was already very active as an independent jewelry maker. I could participate in international exhibitions, and I absolutely wanted to open a department for experimental and art jewelry in Geneva because we didn’t have that. We had this excellent program for luxury jewelry. That is what I learned. For four years, I had this education for luxury jewelry, and I thought it was the time in Switzerland, and especially in the French-speaking part of Switzerland. In this very luxurious environment, we needed something breaking this up. This is another idea of what luxury can be. It’s not only luxury and precious metals and very expensive stones; it can be something very different. That is the environment where I could start this jewelry design department at the school in Geneva, which is now called the School for Applied Arts, which has the same status as a university.
Sharon: As a university, did you first study basic university courses?
Esther: I was never in a university. I just knew them from my colleagues I met when we exhibited. I knew the Rietveld Academy. I knew the RCA in London. I knew Otto Künzli in Munich. I had this dream of doing something like that in Geneva, and I was given the opportunity and the confidence to start and create this department. It was a very lucky situation. I am a very lucky person in general.
Sharon: Well, you must be a good teacher because there are people all over that I met who said, “Oh, I studied with Esther Brinkmann.” You must be a good teacher. They wouldn’t have chosen this, would they?
Esther: I’m very much able to transmit my passion. I’m also able to support young people to find their own way, to express ideas, to find their own materials and, maybe the most important, to find the energy to develop and to not give up, to stay with an idea and to follow your intuition, to give you the skills and the force to realize something until satisfaction. This is a very, very important thing. Everybody has ideas; everybody can have excellent ideas, but you have to have the energy and the endurance to follow your way and follow your idea until materializing something to achieve a piece. That is something you need support for. I think that is a very important thing the teacher has to give, to transmit to her students.
Sharon: Was there a competition or was there stress in choosing you? Were they going to choose somebody for this position?
Esther: No, there was nobody. There were different people to propose different programs. I had a colleague who also proposed a program for watch design. We had a very small department for watch design open at that time, but nothing in the field of creative jewelry.
Sharon: Creative jewelry being contemporary too?
Esther: Yes, being contemporary jewelry.
Sharon: Tell us about the Magpies. We’ll finish with that. What about the Magpies?
Esther: I met the Magpies more or less at the same period. I met Theresa, who was the founder of this club called the Magpies. It was a small group of friends, of women. They were just fond of jewelry, although not of contemporary jewelry at that time. Two or three of them were involved in archaeology. They were fond of tribal jewelry, of jewelry from the Middle East. They were just interested in jewelry. When I met them, I could introduce them to contemporary jewelry. Since then, they were very supportive of my students as a group of women who were just enthusiastic and following what we were doing and also, of course, buying work, which is always very important. That’s how we kept going in parallel together until now.
What happened is that I would say in the last 15 years, this group has become less and less active because the women are getting elderly. They stopped organizing activities. Only recently a group of younger people are starting this group of collectors again and trying to organize activities around this topic. It depends always on people and privileged relationships that we can have with collectors, but also galleries. It’s the same with students. People can stimulate each other to excellence, to create things and to do activities which they would not do when they are alone.
Sharon: Do you see that happening with Magpies? Do these stimulate?
Esther: The fact that we were friends and that I could include them in our activities at the department, I think that was a very stimulating period of time for them. Somehow with my successors, it did not happen in that same way. But it seems that now, with the new generation at the school in Geneva, they are trying again to create this link and this relationship with collectors. They might succeed. I think so. It’s about transmitting your passion, and it’s about exchanging ideas. It’s about generosity from one part, and the other that makes things can make things happen.
Sharon: You certainly have made things happen. Thank you for being with us today. I greatly, greatly appreciate it.
Esther: Thank you for having me, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about all this. Thanks.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Esther Brinkmann
Esther Brinkmann is an independent jewelry maker living and working in Switzerland. Her work has been exhibited in galleries throughout the world and is held in the collections of the National Museum of Switzerland, Musée des Arts Décoratifs in Paris, Museo Internazionale delle Arti Applicate Oggi (MIAAO) in Torino, and the V&A in London. She established the Haute École d’Art et de Design (HEAD) in Geneva, the first jewelry education program of its kind in the country.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Jewelry artist Esther Brinkmann makes her rings with intention, considering everything from the meaning of the material used to the way the shape of the ring will change how the wearer moves their hands. She has passed this perspective down to hundreds of students at the Haute École d’Art et de Design (HEAD), the jewelry program she founded in Geneva. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how living in China and India made her question her identity and influenced her work; why many of her rings are designed to fit different sized hands; and what makes the relationship between artist and wearer so special. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
I recently went to Switzerland with Art Jewelry Forum. One of the afternoons we had was at Esther Brinkmann’s home. It was a very memorable lunch and afternoon. We got to see her studio, and on top of that, we had an unforgettable luncheon cooked by her husband, Warner. Esther’s work is very well known, although it’s not known so much here. It is found in prestigious museums. She was influenced by culture, especially in India and China, where she lived for more than 20 years with her diplomat husband. We also met a collectors’ club, the Magpies, which you’ll hear about. She’ll talk more about her philosophy and her jewelry. Esther, welcome to the podcast.
Esther: Thank you very much, Sharon, for inviting me to talk about my practice as an artist and as an educator. Thank you.
Sharon: You’re welcome. I’m glad you’re here. I was going to ask you why you think there are only certain areas of the world where your jewelry is known. For instance, I don’t think it’s known here. I don’t know it. I haven’t seen the jewelry here. If somebody said to me, “It’s an Esther Brinkmann piece,” I wouldn’t know what that meant.
Esther: That’s a difficult question. I guess it’s because I have never been collaborating with an American gallery, although I think I have a few pieces in American collections. My focus was, for many years, on European countries. As you were saying, we were living in China and India for 10 years, so I could show my work in those two countries. But America, it was a little bit far away, I think.
Sharon: Do you have more work in China and India and Europe than other places? I guess I’m asking that about China and India. Is your work more well-known there?
Esther: China and India are huge countries with numbers and numbers and millions and millions of people. I’m not very known in those two countries, but I am known in different universities, in different cities, as an ambassador for jewelry. When I was living in China and in India, I was given the opportunity to have a lot of lectures and workshops with students there, so I could introduce this idea, which was quite a western idea of artisan jewelry. In India as in China, it was not at all a topic.
Sharon: The lectures or conferences you had, was it because you were part of a school? Was it just private?
Esther: No, it was because when we lived in those two countries, I contacted different universities that had jewelry departments or fashion departments, design departments, and I offered to give lectures and workshops about art jewelry. I was welcomed with open arms.
Sharon: So, you basically made your niche, I want to say. You created it. You weren’t asked, but you created it.
Esther: I would not say I created it, but I participated, and I stimulated young people in those two countries to go into individual creative and experimental jewelry. Things happen also because there is something in the air. The time was right to do that, and they were interested in it.
Sharon: If you had come 20 or 10 years earlier, would they have been interested?
Esther: I don’t think so.
Sharon: Your favorite piece, the one most written about, is a ring that’s a double ring. It’s not made of two rings, but it’s comprised of two rings.
Esther: Yes.
Sharon: How did that come about?
Esther: That came in the early 80s, when I started as an independent jewelry maker. It was the trend at that time. All of us tried to make multiple pieces. That means a big number of pieces, inexpensive pieces, for everybody. At that time, I had the idea of a ring. It was made of an industrially made aluminum tube with an incision on top where I introduced a rubber ring. This ring could regulate the size of the inner hole. I realized that I created this ring for a functional reason. Many people could wear the same ring and they filled the same space more or less.
At that time, I suddenly realized how interesting it is to have a ring with space around the finger. I focused on this concept, on this idea, and developed many different other shapes from then on. That’s how the double ring came, a ring which is too big for your finger and a second ring which is open. The tubular ring is open and leaves space around the finger, and you fit in a second, smaller ring which holds the thing on your finger. That is quite complicated to explain.
Sharon: I didn’t understand the big ring was supposed to be big and the little ring—
Esther: The big ring is too large for your finger. The smaller ring inside fits and is held back on your finger. It’s an aesthetic decision, but it’s also functional because the bigger ring can be worn again by many different sizes of hands because the smaller ring fits inside. I can adapt to different sizes.
Sharon: Do you have blanks you use, where you cut and these rings are this size and these rings are this size?
Esther: With the many years of experience I have, I know more or less the range of sizes of rings and fingers. I know, for instance, that women in China usually have very small hands and fingers, whereas in Holland, women have much bigger hands. Also in America, you have bigger hands and taller people. I don’t send very, very small rings to Holland, for instance. This is the experience of many, many years. So, you get a feeling for what range of sizes is fitting to different women.
Sharon: Why do you think it is that different nationalities have different size hands?
Esther: I think it’s not about nationalities; it’s about the body shape.
Sharon: I tried on one of your rings which actually fits. You could slip a ring underneath it. I was surprised because I have large hands and mostly, they don’t fit me. I was really surprised. You started making those rings when?
Esther: I started around 1985, something like that. That makes a long period of time.
Sharon: What did you do with the rings or the jewelry when you were in China? Did you just keep on?
Esther: In the beginning, I was a little bit lost, not in translation, but lost in this very different culture. I had many, many experiences of being the alien within a huge group of other people. That was a very special experience for me. That’s when I had the idea to create this series of brooches called “Red Face and Double.” That was really a Chinese idea. I would not have had this idea elsewhere.
I had the idea of the “Red Face” because I was wondering, “How do these people perceive me? How do they see me? I see them like this and like that, and they are looking at me; they are staring at me. Who am I for these people?” Also, I didn’t know anymore exactly who I was. There were a lot of questions. That’s how I started to draw these faces. I thought, “It’s a brooch; it’s like wearing another face of mine.” It’s like showing that I’m not a person who is only one. I am multiple. With different people, I might be a different person. I think that is a reality. It depends on with whom we are. We are different people. Luckily, we are not like a stone or something which would not change. That’s how I got the idea of those brooches wearing another face.
Sharon: Do you think people understood what you were trying to do?
Esther: I think so. I think they could feel that it has something to do with who we are and how we see each other, how we look at the world, how flexible we are or what our competences to adapt in certain circumstances are, etc. What was certainly surprising for them was to see that you could express such ideas in a piece of jewelry. That was completely new for them. That was something very—not disturbing, but it was somehow questioning them.
Sharon: Did anybody ever say to you, “That’s unusual,” or “That is really making me think twice,” or anything like that?
Esther: Many people said it is unusual. I had a lovely experience with a very young student. They came to see my first exhibition in Guangzhou in the south of China. I explained to them about this idea of having another face on me, and she said, “But you know, you are new here. I’ve lived in Guangzhou for 20 years and I have never had this idea.” So, I said to her, “Yeah, you see the fact that I am a foreigner here. I am a person who is in a new surrounding, in a new environment, so I have a new perception of myself. I have also so many emotions, so many things that I discover every day and every instant.”
Sharon: Did you continue to make the rings while you were there?
Esther: Yes, of course, I continued to make the rings, but I introduced a new material. I started to work with jade. I was very much fascinated by this very Chinese stone there. You can see it everywhere. It’s a very popular stone. I was really fond of starting to work with and realizing pieces with jade. The second thing is, in doing so, I could start to collaborate with Chinese craftspeople, which is an interesting way to get into another culture, by doing things together, developing things together. Not only observing or being a consumer of artifacts, but sharing knowledge, sharing skills, sharing ideas and concepts is extremely enriching. That was a fabulous experience.
Sharon: Did you make the rings out of just jade or other things?
Esther: I made the models and then I got them carved by Chinese craftspeople. I couldn’t have done this myself. I don’t have the skill for that.
Sharon: How did you communicate with these people?
Esther: By bringing them a model. The first time I went to one of these carving studios with a drawing. I went with a translator. I could not speak Chinese in the beginning at all, so I went with a translator, and he said, “Oh, no, I cannot do this.” It was a very simple shape. They are able to carve Buddhas and cabbage and absolutely crazy, very complex forms and shapes, and he said, “Oh, no, I cannot do this,” and I said, “O.K., I have to find another way to communicate.” So, I went home, and I made the ring of wood. I went back and asked him, “Could you please copy this ring for me in jade?” and he said, “Of course, no problem.”
Sharon: The same person?
Esther: The same person. It was just the way to communicate. When he saw the drawing, he was not sure he was able to interpret the right thing, whereas with the model, he could measure. He could copy exactly the same thing. It wasn’t a problem anymore.
Sharon: Did you produce a few in jade?
Esther: Yes, I produced a few in jade. It’s getting dark here, Sharon.
Sharon: O.K., all right, I’m sorry.
Esther: No, that’s why I turned on the lights, so you could see me again.
Sharon: Yes, I can see you. How long ago did you start making rings on a continuous basis?
Esther: 35, 40 years. It’s a long time.
Sharon: Can you tell us about your experience with the rings in India?
Esther: When we arrived in India, the first impressions that I got were the fabulous world of colors and patterns on textiles, on temples, on saris. Wherever you look, you will see fabulous combinations of colors and ornaments, motifs and patterns, flowers, birds and things like that. I thought, “This is the moment for me to try to introduce motifs and decorations to my very simple shapes.” So, I started to draw flowers and birds influenced by these jewelry pieces from the Mughal Period, which I find absolutely fantastic. I was lucky to find an enamel master, a skilled craftsman in Rajasthan, in Jaipur, who could realize my rings. I made the metal ring gold or silver. I drew the pattern on it, the motif, and he realized the enamel.
Sharon: Was there any problem in communicating with them?
Esther: There were many problems because our temperaments are completely different. Of course, our sense of aesthetics is also different. In the beginning, he said, “Esther, I will draw you things in a better way. I can do this for you. I can make much better motifs than what you are drawing,” and I said, “This is not the deal we did. I have my own ideas. I don’t want to make Indian jewelry. I make my own jewelry, and I want you to realize, with your fantastic skill, the best enamel I can get.”
It also took some time to discuss and to find how to communicate. In the end, it worked very well, but it worked very well because I went to his studio. I stayed a few days there; I worked together with him. I could not work with him from this distance now from Switzerland. That would not be possible.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jo Ellen Cole
Jo Ellen Cole is the owner of Cole Appraisal Services and the director of fine jewelry at Abell Auctions. She earned her Graduate Gemologist Diploma at the Gemological Institute of America in Santa Monica and successfully passed the prestigious Gemological Association of Great Britain’s FGA examinations.
Additional resources:
Gemological and Jewelry Books for a Professional Library:
GEMOLOGICAL IDENTIFICATION BOOKS
Gemstones: Their Sources, Descriptions and Identification, Webster, Robert
Gem Testing, Anderson, Basil
Handbook of Gemstone Identification, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T.
Gem and Ornamental Materials of Organic Origin, Pedersen, Maggie Campbell
Gemstones of the World, Schumann, Walter
Photoatlas of Inclusions in Gemstones, Vols. 1, 2 and 3, Gubelin, Edward and Koivula, John
Color Encyclopedia of Gemstones, Arem, Joel
The Spectroscope and Gemmology, Anderson, Basil and Payne, James, edited by Mitchell, R. Keith
GENERAL REFERENCE
Gemology, An Annotated Bibliography, Sinkankas, John
The Complete Handbook for Gemstone Weight Estimation, Carmona, Charles
Dictionary of Gems and Gemology, Shipley, Robert
The Jewelers Manual, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T. and Copeland, Lawrence L.
Gemstone and Mineral Data Book, Sinkankas, John
DIAMONDS
Diamonds, Bruton, Eric
Diamond Cutting: Complete Guide to Cutting Diamonds, Watermeyer, Basil
Famous Diamonds, Balfour, Ian
Hardness 10, Vleeschdrager, Eddy
Diamond Handbook, Newman, Renee
Laboratory Grown Diamonds, Simic, Dusan and Deljanin, Branko
Fluorescence as a Tool for Diamond Origin Identification – A Guide, Chapman, John, Deljanin, Branko and Spyromilios, George
PEARLS
Book of the Pearl, Kunz, George F. and Stevenson, Charles Hugh
Pearls, Strack, Elizabeth
Beyond Price, Donkin, R.A.
JADE
Jade, A Gemmologist’s Guide, Hughes, Richard
Jade For You, Ng, John Y. and Root, Edmund
COLORED STONES
Ruby and Sapphire, Hughes, Richard
Emerald and Other Beryls, Sinkankas, John
Opal Identification and Value, Downing, Paul
JEWELRY HISTORY
Brilliant Effects, Pointon, Marcia
Understanding Jewelry, Bennett, David, and Mascetti, Daniella
Jewelry in America, Fales, Margha Gandy
Victorian Jewellery, Flowers, Margaret
Transcript:
In appraiser Jo Ellen Cole’s opinion, the best thing a jewelry lover can have is a well-stocked library. Information on gems and jewelry abounds online today, but much of that information is incorrect. For that reason, Jo Ellen—a Graduate Gemologist who also passed Gem-A’s FGA examination—turns to books when she has a question about a specific piece, hallmark or stone. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to share which books she recommends for every jewelry interest; how jewelry trends shifted over the years due to cultural forces; and how to quickly identify the characteristics of different jewelry periods. Read the episode transcript here.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jo Ellen Cole
Jo Ellen Cole is the owner of Cole Appraisal Services and the director of fine jewelry at Abell Auctions. She earned her Graduate Gemologist Diploma at the Gemological Institute of America in Santa Monica and successfully passed the prestigious Gemological Association of Great Britain’s FGA examinations.
Additional resources:
Gemological and Jewelry Books for a Professional Library:
GEMOLOGICAL IDENTIFICATION BOOKS
Gemstones: Their Sources, Descriptions and Identification, Webster, Robert
Gem Testing, Anderson, Basil
Handbook of Gemstone Identification, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T.
Gem and Ornamental Materials of Organic Origin, Pedersen, Maggie Campbell
Gemstones of the World, Schumann, Walter
Photoatlas of Inclusions in Gemstones, Vols. 1, 2 and 3, Gubelin, Edward and Koivula, John
Color Encyclopedia of Gemstones, Arem, Joel
The Spectroscope and Gemmology, Anderson, Basil and Payne, James, edited by Mitchell, R. Keith
GENERAL REFERENCE
Gemology, An Annotated Bibliography, Sinkankas, John
The Complete Handbook for Gemstone Weight Estimation, Carmona, Charles
Dictionary of Gems and Gemology, Shipley, Robert
The Jewelers Manual, Liddicoat Jr., Richard T. and Copeland, Lawrence L.
Gemstone and Mineral Data Book, Sinkankas, John
DIAMONDS
Diamonds, Bruton, Eric
Diamond Cutting: Complete Guide to Cutting Diamonds, Watermeyer, Basil
Famous Diamonds, Balfour, Ian
Hardness 10, Vleeschdrager, Eddy
Diamond Handbook, Newman, Renee
Laboratory Grown Diamonds, Simic, Dusan and Deljanin, Branko
Fluorescence as a Tool for Diamond Origin Identification – A Guide, Chapman, John, Deljanin, Branko and Spyromilios, George
PEARLS
Book of the Pearl, Kunz, George F. and Stevenson, Charles Hugh
Pearls, Strack, Elizabeth
Beyond Price, Donkin, R.A.
JADE
Jade, A Gemmologist’s Guide, Hughes, Richard
Jade For You, Ng, John Y. and Root, Edmund
COLORED STONES
Ruby and Sapphire, Hughes, Richard
Emerald and Other Beryls, Sinkankas, John
Opal Identification and Value, Downing, Paul
JEWELRY HISTORY
Brilliant Effects, Pointon, Marcia
Understanding Jewelry, Bennett, David, and Mascetti, Daniella
Jewelry in America, Fales, Margha Gandy
Victorian Jewellery, Flowers, Margaret
Transcript:
In appraiser Jo Ellen Cole’s opinion, the best thing a jewelry lover can have is a well-stocked library. Information on gems and jewelry abounds online today, but much of that information is incorrect. For that reason, Jo Ellen—a Graduate Gemologist who also passed Gem-A’s FGA examination—turns to books when she has a question about a specific piece, hallmark or stone. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to share which books she recommends for every jewelry interest; how jewelry trends shifted over the years due to cultural forces; and how to quickly identify the characteristics of different jewelry periods. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
I met Jo Ellen about six or seven years ago when I was studying for the GG, or the Graduate Gemology degree. In order to pass it, I needed to identify about 18 stones and get them all right, and I only had three chances to do that. This was daunting to me because I’m not a science person; I’m not a math person or anything. I wasn’t working with the stones. I wasn’t working in a jewelry store, so I really didn’t have the opportunity to handle the stones. I called another appraiser, Charlie Carmona, whom we’ve had on this podcast, and asked him for a recommendation for a tutor. I thought it was a pretty weird recommendation that I was asking for, but he immediately recommended Jo Ellen, and I never looked back. She’s been a great tutor. It was a few years ago, but she helped me a lot.
She knows a lot about jewelry, and not just jewelry, but I find her extremely knowledgeable about vintage and antique pieces. I have talked to and been to enough appraisers to know that this is its own specialty. She’s also been helpful when it comes to directing me to researchers for whatever I need. She pointed me in the right direction. Today, she’s going to share with us the books that she thinks will help us with our jewelry journey. Jo Ellen, welcome to the program.
Jo Ellen: Thank you so much for having me. I’m happy to be here.
Sharon: I’m so glad that you deigned to be on. Now, tell us, with a GG, which is part of the GIA, you can do a lot of things. So, why did you go into appraisal as opposed to other things?
Jo Ellen: Well, I found that I was lacking in salesmanship abilities, to say the least. I’m just not a salesperson, but I love to categorize; I love to research. Appraising seemed to fit that bill very well. Plus, when I realized that I was not good at sales, I met Charles Carmona, whom you mentioned before, at American Society of Appraisers—no, it was the AGA. I can’t remember what that stands for, but it was a meeting. I met him, and a couple of years later, he asked me to work with him and I jumped on it. It was a wonderful experience. He’s still my mentor. He’s so knowledgeable and knows so much about appraising. I always feel comfortable talking to him about any problem I might encounter. He’s been very instrumental.
Sharon: And a big name in the L.A. market, I would say.
Jo Ellen: He’s really gone worldwide. He has three laboratories in China and Thailand as well.
Sharon: I didn’t realize that.
Jo Ellen: Yeah, he’s really opened up his market. He also leads a lot of traveling groups and things. He’s very well-known.
Sharon: I knew he was well-known in Los Angeles, but I didn’t know he was that well-known around the world.
Jo Ellen: Having factories in Africa, he’s been around doing a lot of different things.
Sharon: I’ve stopped purchasing books when it comes to novels or something like that. I just listen to them. Why should I purchase a book as opposed to listening online when it comes to jewelry? Why should I purchase a jewelry book?
Jo Ellen: What I’ve noticed is that when I go online to research prices of jewelry, which I do often, I find that a lot of the information I find is not correct. I think part of the reason for that is because it’s so easy to list something online. It gets your name out there, so people do that. However, they don’t always double check their information. There’s a lot of misinformation out there.
Whereas in a book, it takes a lot longer to set it up, edit it, make sure everything’s proper. I’ve been able to count on the information coming from books a lot better than I have been from online sources. However, I must say there is certainly a good reason to look online as well. Some of the information is very good. It’s just that, personally, I feel more comfortable with a book form. Then, you can revisit that if you need to. It’s easier to find.
Sharon: Do you have to know if it’s right or wrong before you look at a book?
Jo Ellen: You have to figure that out on your own. But generally, if you have a good background in terms of knowledge of gems and gemology and antique jewelry from reading through books, a lot of times, you’ll find that information is incorrect when you go online.
Sharon: I know instances where I’ve found incorrect information about pearls or something like that. I wouldn’t say I’m any kind of expert, but I know it’s incorrect.
Jo Ellen: Yeah.
Sharon: Can you tell us quickly what you do every day? What does an appraiser do every day?
Jo Ellen: If I’m not reviewing a book for a gemological publication like The Gemologist or Gems & Gemology, which doesn’t do book reviews anymore—but a lot of times, I’m asked by people in the industry to review new books. So, I do that a lot, which involves going over the book line by line and figuring out what I think is proper and what isn’t, or what is clear and what is not. I do that a lot.
I also work at a local auctioneer two days a week, at Abell Auctions, as their fine jewelry director. I’m constantly cataloguing things and looking for prices on things, always encountering something unusual there. You get things from all over the world, and people like to use that venue as a way to sell their items. If I’m not doing that, I’m actually going to people’s localities to appraise their jewelry for them, either for insurance purposes or for estate purposes if somebody has passed or wants to set up a trust. I do that a lot, but a lot of my days are spent doing what I love, which is reading.
Sharon: You sound pretty conscientious to look at a book that closely when you’re writing a book review.
Jo Ellen: For me, it’s really important to get it right. Generally, most books, even if I don’t particularly like them, I can at least validate that their information is correct. I did have one book about a year-and-a-half ago that was just so egregious in its information I had to give it a bad review, which I’ve never done before. I called up the editor the week before it was due and said, “Why are you even covering this book? It’s so awful.” He asked why, and I started pointing out little things. He was like, “Oh,” but he published the review anyhow. I didn’t feel great about it because I don’t like to slam people for things, but it was just so awful I had to point it out.
Sharon: So, we should do our own reading, both online and with books.
Jo Ellen: Absolutely.
Sharon: Let’s talk about a book or books and talk about the history. If you want to learn about the history of jewelry through the ages, what would you look at?
Jo Ellen: There are a couple of really good books. When you write a book, it seems like the best formula is always to start at the beginning and take them through the ages. That’s what they do with jewelry history. Usually, they’ll start with prehistoric jewelry and how jewelry first came to be—it’s one of the oldest things that humans have done that marks them as humans—and then it goes through medieval times and Renaissance, and then to Georgian and Victorian and Arts and Crafts or the Aesthetic Period, and then through Art Nouveau and Art Deco and Retro and on up to modern jewelry for today. That’s usually how a book on jewelry history is set up. There are couple of really good ones out there that encapsulate what you need to know in terms of jewelry history.
Sharon: Before you tell us that, I wanted to tell our listeners that we will have all this information on the website. Yes, take notes, but you don’t have to write everything down; it’ll be on our website.
Jo Ellen: Yeah, I created a list of things that you can look for. One of the main books I recommend for overall jewelry history is a book called “Understanding Jewelry.” It’s by David Bennett and Daniela Mascetti, who were both cataloguers at Sotheby’s for many years and very knowledgeable in their field. It really helps to set up all those different ages of jewelry and gives wonderful examples and photographs. It’s a picture book as well as an informative book, but all the information they offer has always been spot-on. I’ve learned so much from that book. It’s one that I would definitely recommend.
Sharon: I’ve probably seen it in every jewelry office that has books. I see that book.
Jo Ellen: It’s a great book. It really is. Another good one that’s much simpler and has more pictures is a book called “Warman’s Jewelry.”
Sharon: Warman’s?
Jo Ellen: Yeah, W-A-R-M-A-N. The second edition was actually written by a good friend of mine, Christie Romero, who has since passed on. She used to be on the Antiques Roadshow. You’d see her on Antiques Roadshow a lot, a very knowledgeable woman. She had started her journey by traveling down to Mexico and learning all about Mexican silver and then just expanded from there. She used to give classes on jewelry at Valley College in Los Angeles. She just knew how to present things in such a way that it was very easy to assimilate that information.
It has tons and tons of pictures. It also has a jewelry timeline. It’s very thorough for being such an easily read book. There are even some prices in there, I think. It’s now an older book, and I think there have been other editions that have been written since hers, but I always liked hers because I’m familiar with it. So, that’s another good one that I would offer.
Sharon: What about a book if we want to be more specific, like Georgian or Victorian jewelry? It’s funny that when you say prehistoric, you could take many of the prehistoric pieces and wear them today and nobody would know the difference. But it seems to jump then to Renaissance.
Jo Ellen: Because it has to do with the Dark Ages. A lot of it is about human history and civilization. During the Dark Ages, people were in such terrible shape as a civilization, they didn’t have time to decorate themselves, so they usually used items from the past. There wasn’t a lot of information coming out between, let’s say, the 5th and 13th centuries. Then things started rolling again once society got more stabilized.
Sharon: Is there a particular book we should look at if we want to pick up where society picked up? Let’s say Georgian.
Jo Ellen: There’s a really good book on jewels of the Renaissance by Yvonne Hackenbroch. It’s quite a tome. It’s big, and it goes through the history of civilization as well as jewelry. It talks about the light occurring in the beginning of the Renaissance, when people started realizing there’s more to life than just eating and sleeping and staying alive. You can decorate yourself. You can show your social status by what you wear, some of it being jewelry. That’s a very good book for the Renaissance period.
There’s also another Renaissance book called “Renaissance Jewels and Jeweled Objects: From the Melvin Gutman Collection” by Parker Lesley. It shows wonderful examples of Renaissance-oriented jewelry. There’s one called the Hope Pearl Jewel. It’s this big, baroque pearl that’s decorated as the body of a man. It’s very well known. It demonstrates jewels like that.
Sharon: From there, does it continue to Georgian and Victorian?
Jo Ellen: Yeah, there’s a really good book, “Georgian Jewelry 1714-1830,” by Ginny Redington and Tom Dawes with Olivia Collings. It’s great because I had never seen a book specifically on Georgian jewelry. It’s not glamorous jewelry because the techniques weren’t there. It’s just that people wanted to adorn themselves to help their social status. It’s very collectable today. People collect Georgian jewelry all the time. It goes through the period before Queen Victoria took the throne and clarifies a lot of things. And, again, the information is spot-on. I’ve never had a problem with these books. When I go to confirm that information, I’ve never had a problem with it.
Sharon: I don’t collect Georgian jewelry, but I do know it’s very hard to find.
Jo Ellen: Yeah, it is, but it shows up at different auctions, sometimes in the most unusual places. Even at Abell Auctions you’ll see it. People just hold onto these things. A lot of Georgian jewelry isn’t available anymore because people would melt down those items to make new items in a newer fashion, such as a Victorian fashion. They would take the stones out, melt down the metals and then either recast them or remake them in some way into a newer-looking form. That’s why you don’t see a lot of Georgian jewelry anymore.
Sharon: How about Victorian jewelry? There seems to be a lot of it.
Jo Ellen: There’s a lot of Victorian jewelry. Even though people also did it then, where they would melt things down and make a new piece out of older pieces, there is a lot of Victorian jewelry because Queen Victoria, whom that period is named after, wore a lot of jewelry. She was a big jewelry person. She loved jewelry and she used it for sentimental reasons to give imagery, to bestow favor on people. So, there’s a lot of it around because people would want to copy her. Everybody started doing that. You’ll have mourning jewelry from Victorian times.
A lot of historical things happened during her reign, such as the finding of diamonds in South Africa, which changed the diamond market forever. Before then, there were diamonds from Brazil, primarily, or India, but they’re very hard to come by and very, very expensive. Once they opened up the diamond fields in South Africa, you started getting a lot more diamond jewelry.
Sharon: By mourning, you mean if somebody dies?
Jo Ellen: Yeah. A lot of times, when someone would die, they would leave a certain amount of money in their will to make mourning rings or pendants for their friends and family to remember them by. So, you have this memento mori-type jewelry which has its own collecting base. People collect their little pendants, which are like little baskets with a little enamel skeleton inside, little rings that say the man or woman’s name written around the inside of the band, all sorts of things like that. It’s kind of sweet because, when you think about it, jewelry is one of the few art forms that’s worn close to the body. It makes it more sentimental.
Sharon: And the diamonds from South Africa, were they different than the other diamonds, besides being less expensive?
Jo Ellen: The thing with Brazilian diamonds in particular is that they had what they call a lot of knots in them, where their crystals grow into crystals. You would have these harder-to-polish areas. With African diamonds, it’s such a pure form that they’re easier to polish. They didn’t take as much time to polish, and they didn’t break on the wheel the way that some of the Brazilian diamonds would break.
Sharon: They used those diamonds in Victorian jewelry?
Jo Ellen: They did.
Sharon: What books should we look at if we want to learn about Victorian jewelry?
Jo Ellen: There is a wonderful book—in fact, I used to know an antique dealer that used to give out these books to his clients because they were wonderfully organized. There’s a book called “Victorian Jewelry” by Margaret Flower, and it goes through the different phases of Victorian jewelry. There’s an early, a mid and a late phase. What she does is describe exactly what you can see during each of the phases, what types of jewelry. It’s very interesting, and it gives you an overall picture of how things came to be during that time period. It’s really nicely done.
There’s a much larger book I’m still reading because it’s so big. It’s called “Jewelry in the Age of Queen Victoria” by Charlotte Gere and Judy Rudoe. That also has a lot of very specific information on different types of jewelry, the makers during that time. What’s interesting is you’ll see the same authors over and over again because these people really use it. It’s their way to express themselves as a lifestyle, almost. They’re wonderful authors, and they do their research and know what they’re talking about. So, those are two Victorian jewelry books I would highly recommend. I think they’re wonderfully done.
Then, if you want to go into French jewelry, there’s another book called “French Jewelry of the Nineteenth Century” by Henri Vever. It’s an enormously fat book. I’m still reading that one as well, but again, it’s jewelry makers. It’s huge. It gives makers’ information and techniques, and it’s beautifully done. That’s a good book to have as well.
Sharon: First of all, it strikes me that you seem to look at the pictures a lot more. You read. Most people don’t read any of the book. They look at the pictures. That’s different.
Jo Ellen: They have pictures with jewelry; that’s sure to entice you to continue looking.
Sharon: Then what do you go into? Edwardian and Art Nouveau?
Jo Ellen: Before that, there’s actually a period called the Aesthetic Period, which is also covered in the “Jewelry in the Age of Queen Victoria” book. It was in the late 1870s through the 1900s. There were certain makers that specialized in it, like Child & Child of London. They would make these beautiful pieces that harkened back to classical times but using new techniques and materials. That was a specific period. It was a very small period, but all the jewelry that was done during that time is beautifully done. There’s a book by Geoffrey Munn called “Castellani and Giuliano,” and it talks about that specific time period. For example, Castellani was known for taking antique or ancient jewelry and refiguring it for that time period around the 1900s.
Sharon: He was a goldsmith?
Jo Ellen: He was a goldsmith. It was actually two brothers who were goldsmiths. One of the brothers was very politically active and lost an arm when they were demonstrating or something. He got put in jail, but the other brother kept on, and then their children took over after them. In Giuliano’s case, which was another manufacturer in Rome, he was known for his enamels. You will see jewelry specifically with black and white enamel accenting other colored enamels. The work is beautifully done, and it’s very detailed.
Sharon: We may be going back a few years. What was Berlin iron, and when was that popular?
Jo Ellen: Berlin ironwork, I believe, was like 1840 through 1860. It was a result of people giving up their precious metals for the Prussian Wars that were happening at that time. They would make this Berlin ironwork, which is very delicate and lacey, but it was made out of iron because they didn’t want to use precious metals for that; they wanted to use it for warfare. So, they would use ironwork as a substitute for precious metals. There are some beautifully intricate bracelets and necklaces. It looks like lace. It’s really beautiful.
Sharon: Is it wearable?
Jo Ellen: It is wearable. It’s kind of a Gothic look, so it’s a heavier look. I don’t know if you’d want to wear it every day because, again, it’s kind of—I hate to say gloomy, but it is kind of a sober look because it’s black and the tracery is so fine. But it’s certainly wearable.
Sharon: After the Aesthetic Period, we have Edwardian and Art Deco. What do we have?
Jo Ellen: What we start with is Arts and Crafts, which is actually my favorite period. I have a lot of books on it, but there are a couple that were really good in terms of pushing forward the information I knew. One is a book called “Jewelry and Metalwork in the Arts and Crafts Tradition” by Elyse Zorn Karlin, who’s a very active member of the jewelry industry. She gives lectures. It’s this wonderful book on Arts and Crafts jewelry and metalwork and leads you through the making of it with the guilds.
They tried to restart jewelry guilds in England where everything was made from first to last by the same person. The metal would be drawn and shaped by the person. If enamels were used, they would make the enamels themselves and apply them themselves. The stone setting was done by the same person. That was the beginning of Arts and Crafts, the person making the piece from beginning to end. Usually they’re not terribly intricate, but they’re beautifully fashioned with a lot of feeling. It’s a very comfortable look, and it’s infinitely wearable. The first part of Arts and Crafts started around 1883 through 1900. Then there was a repeat of it between around 1920 and 1935, around the same time as Art Deco.
What I forgot to mention during the Aesthetic Period was Carl Fabergé from Russia. He did a lot of Aesthetic pieces.
Sharon: He did the eggs, right?
Jo Ellen: He did the eggs for the Russian monarchy, but he also did jewelry for everyday people. He would make little, miniature enameled eggs for the general Russian population. Those still come up today once in a while. I saw an entire necklace of Fabergé eggs, all in different enamel colors beautifully done. Everything is so beautifully fashioned. You can tell they really took time in every single aspect of the making of that jewel. That’s what I love about it. It shows so much attention to detail.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Colette Harmon
Colette Harmon’s one-of-a-kind accessories are a dazzling blend of crystal, mixed metals and semi-precious stones. With an appreciation for meticulous craftsmanship, the metal meshing and intricate beadwork in each of her statement pieces are an audacious departure from mainstream minimalism.
Born in Sisters Village, Guyana, Colette studied fashion design in Toronto before apprenticing as a belt and handbag designer for a leather goods manufacturer. Harmon soon founded her own eponymous label, whose name became synonymous with maximalist glamour.
Harmon’s modern approach to vintage flair has earned her a devoted following of customers, fans and fashion stylists from across North America. Her pieces have been sold in Saks Fifth Avenue and Holt Renfrew Canada, and her work has been featured in Elle Canada, Flare, Martha Stewart Weddings and Nylon. She currently focusses on one-of-a-kind couture creations for select clientele.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Colette Harmon has seen many trends come and go over the course of her career, but she has never let that influence her work. She has always found an audience for her one-of-a-kind jewelry, even when her hallmark maximalism is supposedly “out.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she defines herself as an artist; how she nurtures her creative vision; and how her job as a leather accessories designer led to jewelry (and how that experience may come full circle in the near future). Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Colette Harmon, who is speaking to us from Canada. Toronto to be more specific. I have to say I’ve never met her, and I’ve never seen her jewelry in person, but it’s my kind of jewelry. It’s over-the-top kind of jewelry. You may have seen it on a celebrity on the stage or screen, but if you’ve seen it, you’d remember it. Welcome back.
Do people bring the dresses? Do they bring the materials or some things?
Colette: Yeah, sometimes they do. If they bring the actual garment, then I can see how the neckline falls and how the piece of jewelry would sit on the dress.
Sharon: Has somebody, a client or a stylist, ever come and tried the dress on and you just didn’t like the dress? Forget the necklace; you just didn’t like the dress on them.
Colette: Oh yeah, but if they’re wearing it, I can’t say, “I don’t like your dress.” Yeah, there have been people who have.
Sharon: You told us that you like the fact that people like your stuff, that’s pleasing to you.
Colette: Mm-hmm.
Sharon: What are some of the bigger obstacles you’ve encountered besides sales, let’s say?
Colette: In terms of?
Sharon: In terms of anything. Being in the business, what are some of the obstacles?
Colette: I mentioned before I found wholesaling difficult. Being a small business, I found that doing wholesale was challenging at times. Just being a one-woman show can be tough at times. There were times when I had people helping me, but often when you’re creating—as I’m working with the students at George Brown, it was difficult to tell someone because I don’t sketch. I create as I’m going. They are helping me create these pieces, but it’s difficult to tell someone what you’re creating if it’s in your head. A lot of times I might say to them, “O.K., do this this way,” and then they start doing it, and then I see something else and they have to undo it. It’s easier for me to create the original piece and then have someone duplicate it, as opposed to having people helping me create something.
Sharon: You said the college is George Brown. That’s the university?
Colette: Yeah, it’s a college here in Toronto. They’re doing a case study of me where they’re studying my creative process and documenting how I create.
Sharon: What’s the first step they documented of you creating?
Colette: The first session was just an interview of me and my background. The piece that we’re working on now—I brought a bunch of materials. I had no idea what I was going to do with them. So, they’re watching how I work and how I put things together. They’re asking me questions as I go on, like why did I do this? They’re documenting how I go from start to finish, if that makes any sense.
Sharon: Are they talking to a lot of creative people?
Colette: I think what happened was Leah saw my work on Instagram. I’m not sure how she found me. She found me on Instagram, but I’m not sure how she found my work on Instagram. She was really inspired. In her words, she said she was blown away by my pieces. Because we’re both in Toronto and she’s been in fashion for a number of years, she wondered why she didn’t know who I was. So, she contacted me and I went to see her. She asked me to bring some of my pieces, so I did.
Then she came up with this idea and approached the college for a grant. There’s myself, her, and two students she recruited, and they’re documenting my creative process. Like I said, there really isn’t a creative process. I feel like—what’s that word when they say that—people will find out I’m a fraud because there really isn’t a creative process. I can make it sound more than what it is, but I just play. I think everybody has a gift, and my gift is just the way I put things together. There isn’t anything technical.
Sharon: Can you tell us more about what you see the end product being with these students?
Colette: That’s the thing; I have no idea. I could send you a picture of the piece I’m creating now. I can tell you a little bit about that, but it would be—
Sharon: I’ll talk to you after the podcast about what we need for pictures. I want my listeners to know that usually I have a picture of somebody, even though I only post the audio, but I don’t even know what Colette looks like.
Colette: Oh, I can send you a picture.
Sharon: Are you the exotic-looking one in the ads?
Colette: In the ads? Which ads?
Sharon: The ads for the website, let’s say.
Colette: On my website?
Sharon: Are you the model? Do you have a model?
Colette: Sometimes I model. I’m not sure which images you’re referring to, but I think there are one or two images of me on the website. There are a couple of me on Instagram. I wouldn’t call myself a model, but I do model my jewelry on occasion. A number of the images of myself were taken by a friend of mine, a photographer whose name is Michael Chambers. I’ve done some work with him over the years.
I wouldn’t call myself a model, but I have modeled my jewelry. I have a shaved head, and I can tell you the story about that. My cousin worked in a hair salon. One day I was visiting, and there was a gentleman there; his name was Stephan. He had this beautiful, long, curly blond hair. He looked at me one day and said, “You know, I’m going to shave your head.” I was young, and when you’re young and crazy, I said, “O.K.” So, he took a straight razor—I would never do it again with a straight razor—and shaved my head.
Then we did a photoshoot where he made bird’s nests out of—I couldn’t even remember what it was made out of. I think maybe feathers and all these different, crazy things, and he put them on my bald head and we did this photoshoot. But I didn’t like it because I was young, and I was wearing a lot of hairpieces. Hair was very important to me and to everyone, so I didn’t like it. I don’t know if I told him I didn’t like it, but I was like, “Oh god, what did I do?” I remember I came home, and my mom was like, “Why did you do that?” Everywhere I went, everyone hated it. This was a time when there were no bald women around. It was before social media. I didn’t know that in Africa there are tons of women like that, but you didn’t see any bald women around.
I remember I would be walking by, and I would hear people whisper, “Maybe she has cancer.” A lot of people didn’t like it because it was such a drastic change from what I looked like before. Now all of a sudden, you have no hair. But I kept it for spite. Just because people didn’t like it, I thought, “I’m going to keep it.” I think I would shave it every week, like once a week or something. The more I did it, the more I liked it. Now that I’m saying it, I think that played a role with the jewelry because I would have this bald head, so the jewelry became more elaborate.
Stephan saw it. My logo is now my head, like a silhouette. The silhouette of my head is my actual logo. I think he saw something I didn’t see. Do you know what I mean? A friend of mine designed my logo. He took a picture of my shadow against the wall with the bald head. Then he took a picture of my jewelry and scanned it onto the image of the head. I would never change that. I think it’s such a beautiful logo. I love my bald head, and I think it really works with the jewelry. It's so striking, for a lack of a better word.
But I always remember after I did it, for years my mother kept saying, “Why don’t you grow your hair?” Then one day she looked at me and said, “You know what? I think of all the hair styles you’ve ever had, that suits you the most.” I do have a nice-shaped head, if I can say so myself, but everybody always compliments me on my—I can’t remember what your question was. I went off into a tangent, but I think you asked me. I don’t think of myself as exotic, but I think other people might use that word.
Sharon: The model on the website is Black. You’re Black, right?
Colette: Yeah, I can’t remember what’s on there. I think there are a couple of images of Black models on there. I think there are one or two of me on there with a shaved head, and then there are a couple on Instagram.
Sharon: You’re Black though, right?
Colette: I am a Black woman, yes.
Sharon: Do you sell a lot through Instagram? You mentioned it several times.
Colette: Do I sell a lot on Instagram?
Sharon: Mm-hmm.
Colette: No, I never pursued doing sales on Instagram. That’s why I was thinking of creating a collection of simple pieces like belts and bags, where I could sell online through social media. I find that the pieces I do, you have to try them on. If you’re not able to try it on, I think a lot of things would end up coming back just because you have to be able to see the scale.
I’ve never had a problem with returns. In all the years I’ve been doing this, I think I’ve only had one piece returned. It was a charm bracelet. It was a woman in one of the eastern states. She saw it in a magazine. She ordered it, and she sent it back because it was too big for her. She wasn’t used to wearing that. It’s a lot. You have to try it on. That’s why I was thinking of doing some simpler pieces where I could sell in volume if some pieces come back, if one or two are returned. But I think the pieces I create now, a lot of them would end up coming back just because you need to try them on.
Sharon: I never thought about that before, that if you don’t have hair, you need something else. You need the jewelry. You need something to replace it in a sense, to draw the eye.
Colette: I don’t think you have to, but I think it works well with the jewelry. It’s like a blank canvas. There is no distraction. Your eye goes straight to it. I have necklaces. I have a preference when I create. If it’s a line, I always start off with the necklace, and then I create pieces that go with that. It always starts off as an elaborate neckpiece. Then I might simplify it or do some more simple pieces that are very similar: earrings or bracelets, a belt, maybe a beaded belt or a chainmail belt or something. But for me, it always starts with the neck.
I used to wear earrings a lot when I was younger, but I haven’t worn earrings in years. Now, I mainly wear necklaces. I don’t like things on my hands, only because I work with my hands and I don’t really like things on my hands. It’s mostly neck pieces. I do a lot of belts, beaded and chain belts. A lot of the pieces I create in general are very versatile, where you can wear it on your neck or you can wear it on your waist. There are pieces I have that you can wear as a shawl; you can wear as a necklace; you can wrap it on your waist and wear it as a belt. A lot of the pieces I do are versatile. You can wear them many different ways. I do that purposely. I always try to create pieces that you can wear in multiple ways.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear that. What I have seen are the photos that are online, which are just repetitions of what’s on your website. Were you influenced by the baldness? I went through a period where I was bald, but I had people come up and say—
Colette: You did?
Sharon: Yeah, I did. People came up to me and they would say, “Oh, I wish I had the guts to do that.” Do they come up and say that to you or anything?
Colette: Not so much anymore. You see it now everywhere, whereas when I was doing it, when I started, there was hardly anyone. Now, nobody even notices. People just walk by, whereas when I first did it, people would actually stop and stare. Now nobody cares because you see bald women everywhere, especially on social media. There are bald women. You see it quite a bit. For how long did you wear your hair bald?
Sharon: Probably for a year, a year-and-a-half maybe.
Colette: What made you decide to do that?
Sharon: Well, basically I was going through chemotherapy and I lost my hair, but it really made me understand how important hair was to a woman or a man, what you did with it and all that. I hadn’t thought about it.
Colette: Right, I think hair is important to a lot of people. People think, “Well, why would you shave it?” but I’ve never really cared about what people think about anything. As long as I like something, I don’t care. Your thoughts are your thoughts. I don’t mean you specifically, but whatever. Your thoughts are your thoughts and what you think about me is—why should I worry about what someone thinks about me? I’ve never really cared about what people say or think about how I look or about my appearance.
Sharon: It’s interesting. I think most people think, “What will somebody else think if I do A, B, C or if I wear—?”
Colette: Yeah, I think so too. I think as I got older, when I stopped caring about what other people thought, it was probably at the age of 16. I remember if I went shopping with friends, if you’re trying something on and they say they don’t like it, I was like, “Well, I’m going to get it just because you don’t like it.” If I like something, it doesn’t matter to me who likes it or who doesn’t like it.
Sharon: I suppose you have to be that way with your jewelry. Your jewelry is gorgeous, but—
Colette: It’s not for everyone.
Sharon: Exactly.
Colette: It’s not for everyone. There are a lot of people who think that’s gaudy. Maybe it is gaudy, but I like it. I don’t really care what people think.
Sharon: It is an acquired taste. I flipped over it because I happen to like big, bold things, but there are some people who like delicate things.
Colette: Who like delicate things, exactly. A lot of times, people will come to me and say, “Why do you do stuff like this?” People are always giving you advice, “Why don’t you do this?” and “Why don’t you look at this person and do what they’re doing?” Why would I do that? That’s her and I’m me. I have to be me. Why would I look at someone and imitate what they’re doing? For me, I always have to be true to myself. I have to create what is in me. I think that’s what makes us all unique; we’re all different. I find a lot of times, everybody’s trying to create or do what everyone else is doing.
The last time I was out in the shops, it was maybe a couple of years ago. We have a mall here called Yorkdale. I was at Yorkdale Mall. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that. It’s a high-end department store here in Canada. I’m looking, and there was—I can’t remember the names, but I’ll just say there was a Gucci chain bracelet. Then I would go somewhere else, and it was Yves Saint Laurent, but it was the exact same bracelet. It was just a different label. I’m not joking. It was the exact same. I don’t understand that.
I find everybody, even with jewelry, it’s all the same. I don’t know if it still is because I haven’t really looked at anything, but it’s all the same. I’ve heard people say that to me too, that when they’re out, everything looks the same, like no one is different. I guess something sells, so everybody does it. There’s some jewelry, I think it’s Tiffany that does it. I don’t know what it’s called, but it’s links and it has balls on the end. It’s a chain link at Tiffany. I think Tiffany did it originally, but I see that everywhere, even high-end designers with the same link they just copied from Tiffany. I think, “Why not just create your own?” Anyway, I guess if something sells, everybody does it.
Sharon: We’re going full circle to why you’re an artist and not a designer, why you call yourself an artist. I really appreciate your being with us today. I hope we can do this again. Thank you very much, Colette.
Colette: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
Sharon: It was great. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Colette Harmon
Colette Harmon’s one-of-a-kind accessories are a dazzling blend of crystal, mixed metals and semi-precious stones. With an appreciation for meticulous craftsmanship, the metal meshing and intricate beadwork in each of her statement pieces are an audacious departure from mainstream minimalism.
Born in Sisters Village, Guyana, Colette studied fashion design in Toronto before apprenticing as a belt and handbag designer for a leather goods manufacturer. Harmon soon founded her own eponymous label, whose name became synonymous with maximalist glamour.
Harmon’s modern approach to vintage flair has earned her a devoted following of customers, fans and fashion stylists from across North America. Her pieces have been sold in Saks Fifth Avenue and Holt Renfrew Canada, and her work has been featured in Elle Canada, Flare, Martha Stewart Weddings and Nylon. She currently focusses on one-of-a-kind couture creations for select clientele.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Colette Harmon has seen many trends come and go over the course of her career, but she has never let that influence her work. She has always found an audience for her one-of-a-kind jewelry, even when her hallmark maximalism is supposedly “out.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she defines herself as an artist; how she nurtures her creative vision; and how her job as a leather accessories designer led to jewelry (and how that experience may come full circle in the near future). Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Colette Harmon, who is speaking to us from Canada. Toronto to be more specific. I have to say I’ve never met her, and I’ve never seen her jewelry in person, but it’s my kind of jewelry. It’s over-the-top kind of jewelry. You may have seen it on a celebrity on the stage or screen, but if you’ve seen it, you’d remember it. I couldn’t find a lot of information about Colette, so I’m going to let her tell you her story. Colette, welcome to the program.
Colette: Thank you so much, Sharon. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you. It took us a while to connect, to actually make this happen. Are you a designer? How do you refer to yourself? A Canadian designer?
Colette: That’s a good question. I don’t think of myself as Canadian, but I am a Canadian designer. I think of myself more as an artist as opposed to a designer. To me, a designer is someone who—can I start again?
Sharon: Yes.
Colette: Let me start again. To me, a designer is someone who creates things that can be worn by the masses, who is able to distill things and make them very simple so that everyone can wear them. Like you said, I’m more over the top. I don’t think about the masses. I create for myself. I create things that I, myself, would wear. I don’t really think about it, and I don’t really want the masses to wear my pieces. I want them to be unique. Maybe not one-of-a-kind, but limited editions. I don’t want to see my pieces everywhere on everybody. When you’re creating things that will be liked and appreciated by many, many people, it becomes distilled and watered down. To me, it loses its soul and its energy. Others might not think that, but that’s how I think of myself.
Sharon: I just wanted to ask you, you’re from Guyana. Am I saying that right? Guyana?
Colette: From Guyana, yes. I was born in a little place called Sisters Village, Guyana.
Sharon: When did you come over here? Were you young or a child?
Colette: I came at the age of five. I came with my parents, my mom and my dad. I have two brothers.
Sharon: So, you came with your family.
Colette: Yes.
Sharon: And when did you start designing jewelry or other things?
Colette: At a young age. I think I got my creativity from my mother. My mother was very creative. She was very musical. She sewed. She sang. She played piano. She was very creative. I think that’s where my creativity comes from. As a child, I was always drawing. I was very much in my head and my own little world as a child. I was always drawing and creating different things. I studied clothing design and thought I would be a fashion designer, a clothing designer.
How I ended up in jewelry was, when I graduated from school, there was a job advertised. I went to a school called Seneca College in Toronto. When I graduated, there was a job in the paper for an accessory designer; it was a belt designer. I had taken a course in college—I think it was just one semester—an accessory-making course. So, when I graduated, I saw the ad and thought, “I can make those.” So, I applied and got the job. I did that for about a year, year-and-a-half.
Then I left that job and started creating my own belts and handbags. One day I was doing a market show, and somebody asked me if I could make a pair of earrings to go with a belt they had purchased. I didn’t know anything about jewelry, so I just cut little squares and circles and covered them with leather. Looking back, they were horrible, but at the time I thought they were great. That’s how I got into jewelry. I never had any intentions of being a jewelry designer; I never thought of being a jewelry designer. That’s how I started. It just sort of happened. I have no idea. It wasn’t something I thought about, but I ended up becoming a jewelry designer.
Sharon: Do you have a lot of stylists as clients? They’re women, I presume. Are they stylists?
Colette: When I started doing jewelry, I started out wholesaling. I had an agent that would carry my pieces, and I sold to people like Holt Renfrew. I sold to Saks a little bit. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it, but there was a chain store here in Canada called Lipton’s. I sold to Lipton’s. I sold to better ladies’ boutiques. I got into doing custom pieces because it was very difficult wholesaling as a one-woman show. It was always very challenging getting paid on time, getting paid at all. When you’re small, I don’t know if it’s true for everyone, but with me, people like Saks, they would sometimes take six months to pay me if I got an order. It became very difficult waiting for money. So, I was doing wholesaling and custom work for a bit, and I segued into doing all custom.
Sharon: Did you leave manufacturing belts to have your own business?
Colette: I slowly moved away from the belts and got into jewelry. I can’t remember exactly how or when it happened, but one day, I ended up being a jewelry designer. I never thought about it. I didn’t plan it. Belts go in and out of style, so I guess there was a period where they weren’t selling as much. Belts weren’t in style, so I moved more towards jewelry. I guess I decided that I liked creating jewelry better than I did belts, and I just ended up in that field.
Sharon: I want to make sure that everybody knows that the jewelry you make is made with real stones and—I call them costume things—things that aren’t real, feathers and all kinds of things. Do you have an inventory?
Colette: Yes, I have quite a bit of stuff. I love to mix different things. I don’t follow any rules. I mix semiprecious with crystal and metal. Sometimes there’s sterling silver, and occasionally I’ll use a little bit of gold. A lot of it is plated. A lot of the metals are plated in either gold or silver. My strength is mixing, the way I combine different elements. I think that’s what my strength is. Some people only do semiprecious or only precious, but I like to mix and combine high and low things. I work with whatever I like. If I like something, I’ll use it. It has to speak to me. It may sound silly, but I think everything has an energy and they speak to you. They don’t speak to you in words or in language, but they have an energy and a feeling. I use what I like, what speaks to me.
Sharon: Do you create these pieces before there’s a need, before somebody comes to you and says, “I need a piece,” or do you create them when they say they need a piece?
Colette: I do a bit of both. Someone could come to me and say they’re going to an event. They might have a dress they need something to go with. A lot of times they just say they want a necklace and the colors and materials they would like to use, and they let me be free and do whatever. I prefer to work that way. I prefer to have creative freedom. A lot of times, someone will come and have something in mind, and I say, “That won’t work,” and they won’t listen. So, I do what they like, and you finish it and they say, “O.K., you were right.” I find a lot of people can’t visualize; they can’t see it. It usually turns out O.K. when I have creative freedom. I can’t create something that I don’t like. I have to like what I’m doing.
Sharon: What do you say if somebody says to you, “I want it this way,” and you think that’s not going to look good? What do you say or how do you deal with that?
Colette: I usually tell them. I’m usually very honest. Then I’ll do what they would like me to do. It usually turns out that it doesn’t look good, but that doesn’t happen very often. It usually works out pretty well. The people that come to me know what I do, so they know what to expect.
Sharon: Can you tell us a little about the people that come to you? Are they women? Are they stylists?
Colette: Mostly women. I do work with stylists. If someone’s doing a shoot, they might want me to create something, or they might pull from something I have. I don’t keep a lot of inventory. It’s mostly women that are going to an event or party. The past couple of years, there haven’t been very many parties, but they come to me if they’re going to a ball or a fundraiser or just for their everyday lives. They just want me to create something unique. People come to me because they want something different. I don’t pay attention to trends or what everyone is doing, so when they come to me, they know they’re getting something different.
Sharon: How do they hear about you?
Colette: Mostly through word of mouth. I’ve scaled back the marketing. It’s mostly through word of mouth.
Sharon: Do they see someone else and say, “Where did you get that?” and then they find you? How do they find you?
Colette: That happens. They might see someone else wearing one of my pieces. They might see something in a magazine. When I do editorials, people will call me. I’m in Toronto. I’ve had people call me from Vancouver after seeing something they like that they would like me to create for them. As I said, most of the pieces are either one or a limited edition. There might be pieces I’ve done when I can’t recreate them exactly, but they might be in different colors. Maybe that color is for a particular client or whatever material is not available, so it’s similar, but not exactly the same.
Sharon: What surprised you most about having all these requests?
Colette: I guess the most surprising thing is that there are actually people that love what I do. I don’t know if surprising is the right word. I guess it’s pleasing to know there are actually people that love it. I was known for these charm necklaces I’ve been doing for years. I had a woman that has maybe 30 of them.
Sharon: That’s a lot.
Colette: I guess it’s surprising and pleasing knowing that there are people that really love and appreciate my work.
Sharon: Do you have other collectors besides this woman with 30 pieces?
Colette: I would say I have maybe five people who—I know you’re familiar with Carole Tanenbaum. She has quite a few of my pieces. Should I say their names?
Sharon: It’s up to you.
Colette: There’s a woman named Nella Rosmand who has quite a few of my pieces. I have a client that lives in Yellowknife. Her name is Lisa Tousar. She used to have a store in Yellowknife. I think she’s closed it, but she’s bought a number of pieces. I had a boutique for a while. She bought a lot of pieces. She loves my work. There are maybe five or six people that have quite a few pieces.
Sharon: Do they wear them more than once?
Colette: I guess so. I guess they wear them. A lot of what you see on Instagram, what you mostly see, a lot of those are—I put the really over-the-top, elaborate pieces there. But I do simple pieces as well. They’re not always as elaborate as that. I also do some more subdued pieces.
Sharon: Your Guyanian and Canadian background, what influence does that have?
Colette: It’s actually Guyanese. Guyanian means people probably think I’m from Ghana. Guyanese is the term. I came when I was five and I’ve been back twice. I don’t know if being Guyanese has—maybe it’s something that’s subconscious, but it’s not something I think about because I grew up here. I grew up within a multicultural city, so there are influences from many places, I think. I don’t know if Guyana specifically has an influence on my work, unless it’s subconscious. I’ve had people say that my pieces look very African. I’ve had women from Africa say that it reminds them of it. But I don’t think it’s something I think about or do intentionally; I just do.
I’m doing a project right now with George Brown College here in Toronto. One of the professors, Leah Barrett, approached me about studying my creative process. I chuckled to myself because I don’t really have a creative process. I could sit down and sketch something, but once I start to make it, it turns into something completely different because I get ideas as I go. As I said, the materials speak to you. I create as I go along. If I have something in my mind from the start, when I finish it, it’s something completely different. I don’t really have a creative process. It sounds silly, but I just play. That’s what I do. I play.
I have to be honest. There are pieces I’ve created over the years that I don’t like, but a lot of times, those are the pieces that sell first. It’s like, “Oh my gosh, I don’t think anyone will ever buy that.” That’s the piece that goes first. I’ve sold a lot of pieces off of my neck. That’s happened quite a bit over the years. I remember once being at a party at a hotel in Toronto. I was in the washroom, and a woman said, “I love your necklace,” and I said, “Thank you,” and she was like, “I want that necklace.” I didn’t want to sell it, but she insisted. She wrote me a check in the washroom and I sold it to her. I actually regret it because it was one of those pieces I could never make again, but I find that people always want what I’m wearing. I’ve regretted selling a couple of pieces over the years because I could never make them exactly the same again.
Sharon: That’s interesting. You’re your own best model in a sense.
Colette: Well, I make them for me, to be honest. If I wouldn’t wear it, I couldn’t make it. I think that’s one of the reasons why I started creating my own leather accessories. I felt very restricted when I was working for—it was a company called Princeton Leathers. I always felt like I was in a box, and I just found it very difficult creating. There were two lines, one that was a luxurious line and one that was more simple. They would give me two findings and say, “O.K., now come up with something.” I was doing a dozen of these, and I found it very restrictive. If I won’t wear it, I can’t make it.
Sharon: Where do you get your ideas, if it’s not from somebody who shows you something and says, “I want something done this way”? Where do you get ideas from?
Colette: I don’t actively look for ideas. It’s just things you see and it’s collected in your subconscious. A lot of times, when I go and buy materials, I buy what I love, just pieces that I like. Sometimes they might be sitting on my desk for weeks and I have no idea what I’m going to do with them. Then one day, you might walk by and an idea just pops up in your head. I don’t actively look.
That’s one of the things I don’t like about social media. You’re seeing all of these things. I try not to look at other people’s jewelry, but you see it and it does influence your work when you’re looking at so many different things. I try not to look at it too much because I always want to be true to myself when I create. I don’t like looking at other people’s work too much because I find that it does influence you, whether you know it or not.
Sharon: Where do you look? Do you walk in the stores? Do you go downtown?
Colette: You know what? I was actually speaking to a friend the other day—he has a manufacturing company in India—saying that we should go out and see, because I have no idea what’s in the stores. I don’t pay attention to what’s in or what’s not in. Even at George Brown, in speaking with the students I’m working with, they were telling me that minimalism is back in style. I have no clue. I really don’t. I don’t know what’s in or what’s not. I don’t pay attention to any of that. I never really liked rules. If you love something, then wear it. Who cares if it’s in or if somebody else likes it? It doesn’t matter. You’re the one that’s wearing it. It’s how you feel in it. What other people think has no bearing. I’ve never understood that. This is in style or that isn’t in—if you like something, if you love it, then wear it. Who cares? I’ve never paid attention to rules.
Sharon: What was the context of them saying that minimalism is back in style?
Colette: I can’t remember what we were speaking about, but they were saying that maximalism is out and minimalism is in. You know how fashion goes in waves. I think that’s like when I was doing the belts. I guess we were going into a period where belts weren’t in style anymore, so people weren’t really buying. Eventually I started doing more and more jewelry pieces. That’s the thing; if you like belts, then wear belts. I guess with the wave of fashion and the way the system works, then the buyers aren’t buying. But I never really paid attention to what’s in.
Sharon: You closed your store. Now do you work out of your home or your studio?
Colette: I have a home studio, yes. I work out of my home.
Sharon: Do you have to go out and sell?
Colette: No, but I’m planning on opening up a showroom where people can actually buy things. I’m thinking about coming full circle and doing a line of leather belts and accessories and a little bit of jewelry as well, but I’m thinking about creating some leather pieces.
Sharon: Is that for stylists or is that for anybody who wants to come and look?
Colette: For anybody who wants to come in.
Sharon: Do they give you an idea of what they’re looking for most of the time? Sometimes they do and sometimes they don’t, as you said. But do most people coming in say, “I want something big,” or “I want something more muted”? What do they say?
Colette: You mean if someone came in and they wanted me to create something for them?
Sharon: Yes.
Colette: Sometimes they might come with a picture from a magazine or something and say, “I really like this,” in terms of style or size or whatever. So, I would create something with that feeling or those colors. Sometimes they bring a swatch of fabric to match, or sometimes they have an actual garment they want me to create something to go with. They might see something on my Instagram or on another person, something they saw someone else wear. It works in many ways. But if I were to create belts and bags again, I would do a line of pieces and people would just buy from what’s already created.
Sharon: Because it’s easier?
Colette: Yeah, because it’s easier. It would be easier. With the belts and bags, they would just buy from a line that’s already created.
Sharon: I can see how that would be easier than picking out jewelry or creating something to go with a garment.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gabriela Rodrigues
Gabriela Rodrigues is the CEO and jewelry designer of Latitude Jewelry. Born in Brazil, her lifelong love affair with aviation and travel was sparked at an early age by her mother, Lúcia who was an air traffic controller.
Gabriela has always had an artistic side and a flair for fashion, having studied for a degree in Fashion Design at college. Her interest in designing jewelry began later, when she did a yearlong goldsmith course to indulge her creativity. It was also a welcome escape from her stressful and challenging work life in air traffic control. Friends and family wanted to buy her designs and her very first jewels were inspired by her experiences and travel background. Latitude Jewelry was born in 2019, and Gabriela took Amelia Earhart, a pioneer in aviation, as the inspiration for her first commercial range, the A.E Collection.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Gabriela Rodrigues changed careers from air traffic controller to founder and designer of Latitude Jewelry, but she didn’t leave her past behind. Her jewelry collections are inspired by everything from the sunsets she saw from her air traffic control tower to the aviation icon Amelia Earhart. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she undertook her career transition; how she fleshes out her many ideas; and how her past career prepared her for the challenges of entrepreneurship. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today my guest is Gabriela Rodrigues. She’s founder and CEO of Latitude Jewelry. She’s speaking with us from Portugal, but she was born in Brazil and lived there for many years. Welcome back.
How else were you prepared? Were you prepared for the changes or the fast pace of business?
Gabriela: Since I decided to open this business, my goal in this business was always to be sold in all places—in as many places around the world. So, I was preparing myself for this. I studied about taxes, customs, pricing, currency and everything. I was very well-prepared, not only about the designing part of the business. I studied how to develop a collection, branding, marketing, but also how to manage a business, pricing jewelry, because it’s very different from other kinds of products. I’m always studying and preparing myself to be where I am. Does it mean I know everything? No. I’m far from it. I’m always desperate, but I think I’m doing my best to be here. So, I’ve been preparing myself since I decided to have a business.
Sharon: How is pricing jewelry different from other commodities?
Gabriela: That’s another problem from Brazil because we deal with the gold prices now, but this is something that everyone deals with in the industry. We also have the problem of currency because we negotiate all gemstones in dollars. The ups and downs of payout in dollars make it a mess for us to price our jewelry there. It’s kind of crazy because one day the currency exchange is O.K., the other day the dollar goes up. It’s insane how we do things there.
Of course, the gold is something the industry, wherever you go, is having trouble with. If there’s a rise in gold prices, all the industry will suffer from this. The dollar price exchange with the Brazilian real is a mess. It complicates a lot of our business there because we are not selling in dollars; we are selling in real, so if the dollar goes up—our costs are in dollars and also the gold prices. It’s insane, but we do our best.
Sharon: Does the inflation allow you to make money overall?
Gabriela: I think inflation doesn’t really get to people who have money to invest in jewelry. In general, of course. It’s more about reaching your target. I don’t think about inflation, but I think about the mood in the countries. If you try to understand how everything is going during a political problem, this can make it worse or better, but not inflation itself. People who really have money to buy jewelry, it won’t affect them that much, I think. So, you’re able to make money.
Sharon: You’ve mentioned that Amelia Earhart is an inspiration to you. Why is that?
Gabriela: Even before working on that airline, I knew her history about being a pilot during a time that there weren’t many women pilots. She was so adventurous, so smart. She worked as a nurse during the war. She had her own clothing line. She was an amazing and complete woman, not only a pilot. She was always challenging herself. Even before working in aviation, she was an inspiration for me.
So, when I came up with the name and what I was doing for my first collection, I felt she was a great person to take inspiration from for my first collection because of her strength, her adventurous spirit. I liked her even before working in aviation. So, that’s it.
Sharon: I didn’t know that she was all those things, besides being a pilot whom everybody knows. You mentioned a collection. If you have one pendant, that’s not a collection. Is it a connection to things? What is a collection?
Gabriela: The first collection we made was to Amelia Earhart. It was five or six pieces of jewelry, like earrings, necklaces, all with the same motif, the compass and her last flight route. That was one collection. I also have an Around the World collection where I have these pendants. This is a kind of collection that I consider Latitude classics. I’m always adding designs to this collection. It starts with small pendants, and now I have a smaller one. I have a locket. Now, we are about to launch a spinning globe where you can set stones in the places that are important to you. So, this is a collection I’m always adding new jewelry to, new designs.
There is the Twenty-Four Hours collection that was inspired by my sunset. Usually when I talk about collections, I mean at least three or four jewelry pieces with the same motif. But I always do one piece or one jewel or one ring outside of the collections just because I feel like it and I have an inspiration I think will work. So, I create pieces without collections also, not being part of collections.
Sharon: The pieces that aren’t part of a collection, do you think someday they might grow into their own collection?
Gabriela: The first collection grew. The first collection was the first five pieces. Now there are more than 10 because I’m always adding designs to this collection. Around the World also started with only one pendant and now we have pendants, earrings, necklaces, lockets because it’s all about the globe. Twenty-Four Hours is another collection. I want to add some new designs to this. If my mind and my creativity give me another idea, I can add a new piece to these collections. I don’t have any problem with it. I just do whatever my mind asks me to.
Sharon: What is your favorite gem you like to work with, like behind the gold map? Let’s say you overlay something.
Gabriela: Lapis lazuli. It’s my favorite since before having Latitude. I love the intensity of the blue, and I think it matches the globe perfectly, the map. The stones have inclusions, these fades, sometimes in white and gold, so it looks like you’re actually looking at the earth from outside when you put it behind the map. I love the way it looks in the world pendant, but it’s a gemstone I really liked even before. I really liked the color. I used to work with it on the bench with contrasting color stones. I have an earring I made myself with lapis lazuli and another stone. The contrast of the colors is amazing. I love that earring. Yeah, it’s my favorite stone, lapis lazuli.
Sharon: Is it harder to work with than other stones? Is it more difficult or less pliable, or does it shatter more easily?
Gabriela: No. This design is like a rounded cabochon behind the map. I have done it with different quartzes, smoky quartz, onyx. Malachite also looks great. It’s just your favorite color. You can choose and put it behind your favorite stone. There’s a friend who wants me to make one in amethyst. I promised her. I need to take care of it. I’m going to do it.
Sharon: Do you have a list on your website where the customer chooses the stone and sends it off to you for the order?
Gabriela: No. We have many options separated so you can choose, but we also have the contact form if they want. If they want to change any color or any stone, just contact us. If it’s a stone we don’t have and we’ve never worked with before, we are glad to look for it and tell the client if it’s possible. We will work on it. If it’s not possible to have it on that piece, we are very open. We like the ideas that sometimes come up. They come up with nice ideas, so we are there for them. We just want it to be meaningful to the person who buys it.
Sharon: You have talked about the map of the sky that looks like you’re looking down at earth from the sky. Have you considered making a map of the sky or a celestial map?
Gabriela: Yes, actually, I have a client who keeps asking me to design—we have a constellation in Brazil. We see it from there and it’s very known. I have this client. She keeps saying to me, “You need to design that.” I’ve been thinking about how to get this constellation into a piece for her. Sometimes I have this idea of working with stars and constellations, but I have so many ideas. I need to organize my mind step by step, choose what I’m doing next. I keep my ideas, my notes. One day.
Sharon: How do you home in on what you want to do next or what you’re doing now? How do you narrow it down?
Gabriela: I don’t. I’m a total mess in this case. I’m always doing one million things and seeing what’s coming, what’s ready first. I keep a huge amount of notes, a huge amount of designs. I send them to the manufacturer, to the 3D modelists, and I work with what I have in my hands. Someone gave me back this one that works, so let’s do this. Sometimes I sit down and organize everything.
We had a child’s collection in Brazil. That was very nice to work with. I had a person help me with the design, the sketching. The ideas were mine, but we worked together and created this beautiful collection for kids. Sometimes I just choose what I’m doing next, but I’m usually overwhelmed with ideas and designs. I never know exactly what is next. That’s how my mind works.
Sharon: Do you ramp up for the holidays? I realize you haven’t been in business that long, but do you do more because of the holidays, because of Christmas and New Year’s and everything that’s coming? Do you ramp up?
Gabriela: Yes, we usually get prepared four months before. We reorganize our inventory, see what has sold better. Maybe sometimes we come up with a new design to sell during the holidays. I think it’s the best time to sell jewelry. It’s Christmas and Mother’s Day, maybe, but mostly Christmas, Valentine’s—not for Brazilians. Valentine’s is another date; it’s not the 14th of February. In Brazil, we celebrate it in June, I think. It’s also a good time to organize and make pieces and to think about how to offer this jewelry and make more sales.
Sharon: When you were designing jewelry and doing air traffic control at the same time, did you daydream about being a full-time jewelry designer?
Gabriela: Yes, all the time. Since I decided to go with opening the company, opening Latitude, that was always my dream. But it’s hard because I had a very nice job, and every month my payment was there. It’s not a decision you make just because I wanted to live from my jewelry and from my creativity. It needs to be calculated. So, when I felt I was comfortable with the brand, the brand was reaching what I expected from it, then I decided to quit. For example, I wasn’t able to travel because of my job. It was contrasting. I couldn’t do what was needed for Latitude because I had a job. When it came to this, I decided to quit, but it was like four years of wanting to but I couldn’t. I’m not impulsive at all, so I do very calculated things to do them the best way possible.
Sharon: What was your calculation to leave? You couldn’t travel, let’s say. What was your catalyst? What was the big steppingstone?
Gabriela: I don’t think there was a big step, a milestone, for this. It was just step by step, seeing how Latitude was growing and selling better and appearing in some magazines, seeing that people really liked my jewelry. I wasn’t happy in my job. Now I remember. I was about to take part in Inhorgenta in Munich, the jewelry fair. I was working, and I said, “I won’t send anyone in my place to take care of the Latitude stand. I need to go there. I need to see how people react to my jewelry. I want to participate in that and then I can create.” By that time, I couldn’t have any vacation or holidays. I said, “O.K., Latitude is working nicely, making some money. I’ll be able to leave for Latitude. Now it’s demanding my full attention.” I think it was this, participating in Munich in the Inhorgenta fair. I needed to quit because I couldn’t send anyone else in my place. I really wanted to be there representing my designs, representing my brand. That’s why I think I was there.
Sharon: Was that part of your calculation, that you had to be in charge, or you had to be on the front lines seeing what people thought?
Gabriela: Yes, I think it’s important for you to see how people react to your product. Of course, we are designers; we love to create things. Sometimes, when you are a designer, you don’t really care about how people react to your business because you just want to create something that fulfills your creative side. But when you have a business and you need to make money from that, it’s your business; it’s your way of life now. You need to see how the customer will react to your product, and you need to make adjustments if they’re needed. Nobody better than me. Anyone could do this. Someone could be there in Munich and say, “People like your jewelry,” and those were the comments, but I needed to be there to see how they reacted. I’m the designer, but I’m also the owner of this company. I need to make it work.
Sharon: What were some of the comments you got that motivated you to take the next step, to leave air traffic control?
Gabriela: I was growing. I was appearing in some magazines. I was starting to sell more frequently, and I was unhappy in my job. It was more about how I was feeling in that job, and how I felt that I was failing with this new business because I couldn’t have my attention fully directed to the business. It was a time that I couldn’t keep doing that the way I was. It wasn’t about what people think.
Actually, people always say—not my mom; she was always very supportive—but people say, “You’re going to quit this job? It’s such an important job. You have your payment every month. You are going to follow your dream?” I went, “Yes, that’s it.” I don’t regret it at all. I miss my friends. I miss the job. At the end, I wasn’t happy, but I was proud of being an air traffic controller. But it wasn’t what I wanted to be anymore. People were saying, “Don’t do that,” and I went and did it. I quit and I’m very happy now. I’m happier than I was, and that’s it. You don’t have to follow the others. Just go with your plan. I always planned in advance, so it wasn’t a surprise to anyone that I quit because I was doing it step by step. When the moment came, I just quit. You don’t have to involve the others. Just don’t do it.
Sharon: Pardon?
Gabriela: Don’t care about the others’ opinions. Just don’t do it. If they really want what is best for you, it’s their idea of best and not yours. It’s not what’s going to really fulfill you and your dreams in your life. So, just go for it.
Sharon: That’s good advice. Thank you very much for being with us today. We really appreciate it.
Gabriela: Thank you, Sharon, for having me. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Gabriela Rodrigues
Gabriela Rodrigues is the CEO and jewelry designer of Latitude Jewelry. Born in Brazil, her lifelong love affair with aviation and travel was sparked at an early age by her mother, Lúcia who was an air traffic controller.
Gabriela has always had an artistic side and a flair for fashion, having studied for a degree in Fashion Design at college. Her interest in designing jewelry began later, when she did a yearlong goldsmith course to indulge her creativity. It was also a welcome escape from her stressful and challenging work life in air traffic control. Friends and family wanted to buy her designs and her very first jewels were inspired by her experiences and travel background. Latitude Jewelry was born in 2019, and Gabriela took Amelia Earhart, a pioneer in aviation, as the inspiration for her first commercial range, the A.E Collection.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Gabriela Rodrigues changed careers from air traffic controller to founder and designer of Latitude Jewelry, but she didn’t leave her past behind. Her jewelry collections are inspired by everything from the sunsets she saw from her air traffic control tower to the aviation icon Amelia Earhart. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she undertook her career transition; how she fleshes out her many ideas; and how her past career prepared her for the challenges of entrepreneurship. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Gabriela Rodrigues. How do you say your whole name?
Gabriela: Gabriela Rodrigues da Cunha, but Gabriela Rodrigues is O.K.
Sharon: And you’re founder and CEO of Latitude Jewelry. She’s speaking with us from Portugal, but she was born in Brazil and lived there for many years. In 200 episodes of the Jewelry Journey, I’ve talked to people all over the world. I’ve also talked to many people who did not originally start out in jewelry. Maybe they were in finance or another profession they didn’t find creatively fulfilling. Somehow, they discovered jewelry, and they were put on that path. I’ve talked to many guests, but this is the first time I’ve talked to anyone who used to be an air traffic controller. After working in this profession in Brazil for seven years, she decided she wasn’t being creatively fulfilled and started her jewelry journey. We’ll hear all about that today. Gabriela, welcome to the podcast.
Gabriela: Thank you, Sharon, for having me. I’m very glad to be here.
Sharon: That’s such a big swing, an air traffic controller to jewelry.
Gabriela: Yes, certainly. It’s been a crazy path.
Sharon: Had you ever studied jewelry making before?
Gabriela: Yes. In 2017, I was very stressed by my job as an air traffic controller, and I found out there were jewelry places in my city, as in most cities. I was very surprised. I went there to calm down my mind. Here I am now, a jewelry designer with my own brand.
Sharon: Did you think about designs as you were beating with the hammers to make something?
Gabriela: Yeah. The first day I entered, I learned some techniques. It was a very basic class just to show me what it was about, but in the second class, I was full of ideas. I created a ring that was my best seller then. It was a very nice and inventive ring. People loved it so much that I had to make a rubber mold of this ring. I sold like 10 of it, and I said, “Maybe I can do that.” That was how my business started and this new job and profession. I’ve always been creating things in my mind since that time.
Sharon: Did that ring, that rubber mold, encompass the latitude on the world map?
Gabriela: No, that was another design. It was like 2017, but it was very nice. I really wanted to bring it to my business, but it was kind of narrow, and it was for two fingers. It was a two-finger ring, and it was very inventive and beautiful. Latitude came in 2019, two years after, when I really decided to have a business. I did all the branding process to understand what I wanted to create, what I wanted to sell. Then we had all the development of the collection with the compass. The world pendant has another nice history. I can tell you.
Sharon: Please tell us.
Gabriela: It’s funny, because I was doing the class just to calm down my mind. I created this beautiful ring, but on the very first day, I also had this idea of creating the world rolled in gold and lapis lazuli. I created that pendant in my mind the very first time I went to the class, the second time. I could only see it in gold and gemstone four years later. I spent all the time doing this class with this piece in my mind. It was just a class where I wanted to create beautiful things and calm my mind, but that was the first piece I imagined. It was the globe with lapis lazuli and gold.
Two or three years later, when I decided to have my business and was doing the branding, I came up with the name. It was kind of a coincidence. One year or six months later after the launching of Latitude, I made that piece. I think it was meant to be called Latitude and be about travelling and my passion. So, the pendant came first. Latitude came after. It was like a coincidence, a very nice coincidence and maybe destiny, I might say.
Sharon: Like your fate, your destiny. Did you consider anything else besides jewelry when you wanted to start your own business?
Gabriela: I was very stressed in my job. I was always trying to figure out something to do, maybe clothing, shoes. I had been a shoe designer before, but I was like, “I don’t really believe in how fashion is going nowadays.” You have to create pieces, new collections, like every two weeks or you’re left behind. So, I wasn’t sure. I knew I wanted a business, a new life, but I couldn’t figure out what I would do.
Then I went to the class not thinking at all about a business, and I just fell in love. It wasn’t a choice. Jewelry chose me. That’s how it had been. It wasn’t my choice, like “I’m going to work with jewelry.” No, I just noticed how amazing this business is, to create something from metal and gold and how much effort and work you have to put in your creations. So, jewelry chose me, and I just follow it.
Sharon: What made you think you could run and build a jewelry company?
Gabriela: Good question. I wanted a business, and I wanted to quit being an air traffic controller. That wasn’t really a choice. I just did what I needed to do to accomplish what I wanted, which was working with something that fulfills me in other ways creatively and being able to travel to meet people around the world, creating beautiful and meaningful things that people connect to. I think it was natural. I just wanted people to get to know my pieces, my jewelry. It was natural that was creating a business.
Sharon: You became an air traffic controller because of something your mother said to you. What did she say to you? That’s what your website says.
Gabriela: Actually, she was an air traffic controller. So, it wasn’t something she said, but something she was. She became an air traffic controller when I was 15. By then, I understood what the job was. It’s hard. It’s stressful, but I didn’t have an idea of how challenging, how difficult and how smart she needs to be. When I was older, I went to work at an airline in the same airport where she works. She’s still an air traffic controller. I started to talk to the pilots and they said, “Your mom is an air traffic controller? Oh, she must be awesome. I want to meet her. This is such a hard job. She’s probably very smart and intelligent. I want to meet her, and I want to visit the tower.” I was like, “Oh.”
Working in aviation, I started to understand how big and important this job is. Then that spark hit me, and I said, “O.K., I can do that.” I always admired my mom, but I really didn’t have an idea of what she was doing until I started working with an airline. Then I went for the tests and all the training, and I became an air traffic controller myself for almost eight years, I think.
Sharon: When you decided to go into other things, because you did a few different things before you ended up in jewelry, did she say, “Gabriela, why are you leaving? You’ve put so much into this”?
Gabriela: I think she was always supportive. Anything I wanted to do or decided to do in my life, she was always there for me, supporting me. Of course, giving me advice and trying to show me what she thinks is best, but she was always very supportive. It wasn’t a quick change. I didn’t decide to start the jewelry thing and quit immediately. I worked in both jobs for almost four years. Since I decided to open Latitude, I spent four years working both in the company and in air traffic control. I quit air control to take care of Latitude full time last year in February. It’s been like one-and-a-half years that I’ve been only an entrepreneur and owner of Latitude and a designer. So, it was a long process that brought me here, and she was always there supporting me.
Sharon: Your website says you have a flair for fashion. Can you give us some examples of that?
Gabriela: Yes, when I was child, I really wanted to be a fashion designer or a costume designer. There was a time I really wanted to design costumes for movies and TV shows. I was always passionate about this. I know a bit about how to make clothes and design clothes. I was really into fashion. My major in college was fashion. I have a fashion design degree. I also worked as a footwear designer for a while. Almost a year, I think, I’d been designing shoes.
Sharon: If you were pursuing fashion, did you know you were going to be an air traffic controller at that time?
Gabriela: No. What happened is when I went to college, I really didn’t feel like I fit. I wasn’t comfortable there, but it was my dream from my teenage years, my childhood. I was like, “What am I doing here?” After graduating, I went to design shoes. I was a bit happier, but I still was not feeling like I belonged there. I was very emotional and sad, not knowing what to do in my life, and my mom told me, “Come back and start working at the airport.”
I found myself a job at an airline and I was thinking about my life. By then I was like 20 years old, 21 years old. I was very young. Then working at this airline, I decided to follow my mom’s steps. I’ve been totally in aviation. My mind was totally on aviation for 10 years. I can’t remember a day that I’d pick up a pencil to design anything. It was like 10 years of blank in my creativity. I didn’t create anything during this time.
Sharon: When you did travel, did that influence how you saw jewelry or how you drew jewelry? Did it influence you?
Gabriela: Now, when I travel, I’m always inspired, not only to design jewelry. When I’m traveling, I get overwhelmed with things. I see the color, the people, this mall of places and food, and I start creating everything. Even homeware is floating in my mind. I have so many ideas, and the way I choose to translate these ideas and these thoughts is jewelry because I feel comfortable designing jewelry. I think it’s a very meaningful object, and it’s long lasting. Jewelry is forever if you take care of it. I think the best way to translate my experiences is in jewelry. My travels help me to keep my mind running and full of colors and ideas.
Sharon: Do you ever take a pencil to paper and put down some of these ideas, the housewares or other things?
Gabriela: Yes, I actually have many ideas for housewares or leather goods. I want to have some leather goods in addition to jewelry because I think it matches. Like the cover of a jewelry box, those kinds of things. Yes, I’m always creating. I have notebooks full—and yes, they’re real notebooks, not iPads or anything. I like paper. I’m always sketching things, like, “One day I’m going to build this,” and maybe I will. I keep my ideas well preserved and saved for the time I will need them.
Sharon: Did you see jewelry as a way to connect to people?
Gabriela: Yes, most of the time it’s about family traditions and family histories. I want mine to be that. I create my pieces to connect people and start conversations, to make people talk about their experiences, their memories, their dreams, their wishes, their adventures. Jewelry is able to create these connections to people. I’m very proud to be working with such an amazing object.
Sharon: Do you consider jewelry, your pieces specifically, a conversation starter?
Gabriela: Yes, I think so. If you’re living in my world, I think most of the people who buy my jewelry have this kind of lifestyle, the same wishes and dreams. If I see someone with a piece of jewelry like the ones I design, I’m always getting information and trying to understand what the meaning behind that piece is. I’m sure my jewelry does this to people, because I receive emails from clients sometimes. All this is so meaningful. Someone started to talk to me, and I had to tell him about my history with this country or the Morocco collection. I told this person about the history of this pendant and how it is meaningful for me. So yes, I think my jewelry starts conversations and inspires people. They start talking about the meaning behind this jewelry.
Sharon: Have you ever seen somebody wearing a piece and gone up to them and said, “Hey, that’s mine,” or “Why are you wearing that?”
Gabriela: No, not like that, because the people that I would be able to meet, I’ve already had this conversation with them before they buy from me. But they always tell me why they are buying and how meaningful that jewelry is for them because of the stone, because of the history behind it, because of their lifestyle, their adventures, their spirit. I’m always in touch with these clients to know why they are buying this jewelry. They are always very happy to tell me.
Sharon: It’s like a focus group, but they’re not a focus group. They give you feedback, but they’re not formally giving it to you.
Gabriela: Right.
Sharon: On your website, you also say that you have some moments of pure beauty. They’re few and far between, but can you tell us some of them?
Gabriela: Yeah, on the website, we’re talking about the sunsets I experienced from the tower when I was an air traffic controller. I missed this view so much. I used to work in a very high tower with a view. The weather in Brazil at some times of the year is very dry, so the sky during the sunset gets the most colorful shades I’ve ever seen in the sky. It goes from very light blue, it becomes pink, and then you see that it’s red. The sky is fully red. Then it starts to become orange, then it’s violet, and here comes the night. It’s so beautiful. I’ve been traveling a lot. I’ve been to many of the most beautiful sunsets in the world, because every place you visit has the most beautiful sunset, but I’ve never experienced a sunset as I experienced in my tower where I used to work. It was just amazing. This view was the best ever during sunset.
Of course, I’m always traveling, so I’ve been seeing many beautiful things. My first trip was to the U.S. alone, by myself. I remember getting to the Grand Canyon, and it was such an amazing view. I was mesmerized. I didn’t have any reaction more than just looking. I was thankful and grateful. I was like, “This is what I want to do forever.” It’s just being able to see the beauty in the world. The Grand Canyon was a great experience. I think that was the place that started my wish to travel and experience the most phenomenal world.
Sharon: I’m impressed that you went to the U.S. by yourself and you traveled around by yourself. Wow! Tell us how your business works. Who are your clients? Do you have male jewelry? Do you just design? How does that work?
Gabriela: I mostly sell online in Brazil and worldwide. In Brazil, we usually work from Instagram and WhatsApp. We have an online store, but all sales are mostly done on Instagram and the international website. I can ship to any country in the world now. We have some genderless jewelry, but we are working on a male collection, and I think they’re liked. We’re also trying to get some retailers. We’ve been talking to some. Soon, I think the jewelry will be available in some stores around the U.S. and in Europe. Let’s cheer for the best. I think we’ll be taking over the world soon. I hope so.
Sharon: I hope so too, if only for your sake. So, you design and then you give it to somebody else to make.
Gabriela: Yes, I make all the designs. The designs are exclusive. I do everything, and I have the manufacturers here in Portugal and in Brazil produce the jewelry. I have a high standard of quality with gemstones and everything. I’m very careful with the quality of the product.
Sharon: I don’t know how it works, but you have an Instagram. If I order something from Brazil, is it the same as ordering from an international Instagram?
Gabriela: No, I have the same Instagram, but I have two websites. If you search for Latitude online if you’re in the U.S., you’ll find out our international website. If someone in Brazil searches for Latitude Jewelry online, they will find our Brazilian website. The Instagram is an account where we show our pieces, our jewelry. It’s still only one account, but I’m probably getting an international Instagram. In Brazil, all the business I make is on Instagram and WhatsApp. They just reach out to me and ask whatever they want to know about the jewelry they are buying. Of course, we can change to WhatsApp, but here and internationally, it’s only online. If someone asks me on Instagram, I can help, but the business is here. Internationally, business is done online, not on Instagram. That’s the difference between places.
Sharon: I know you can sometimes order from Instagram if you click “Buy” or whatever. What’s the most surprising thing you’ve encountered being an entrepreneur with Latitude Jewelry as opposed to an air traffic controller? What did you not expect?
Gabriela: I expected everything, to be honest. I was excited to open the business. I was very prepared emotionally for the pressure I would find, maybe not as much pressure. I’m used to working under pressure as an air traffic controller, but I think running a business, running a company, there’s a lot more pressure. So, at least I was well-trained as an air traffic controller. I can do pretty well with the pressure of being an entrepreneur. I wasn’t surprised because I was very well prepared to be where I am now.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Rosie Sayyah
Rosie Sayyah has been selling and repairing vintage and estate jewelry from her shop, Rhinestone Rosie, in Seattle since 1984. In the early 1980s, Rosie felt her family tradition of dealing in antiques calling to her. Upon leaving her corporate career in television, she decided to open a jewelry store that not only had unique, exciting items for sale, but also where she could restore greatness to jewelry that had fallen into disrepair. Teaching herself about vintage costume and estate jewelry culture and repair through books, hobby shops, and hands-on experience, Rosie has become a national expert in the field. In the late 1990s, she began appearing regularly on “Antiques Roadshow” on PBS TV and continues today as one of their expert appraisers.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional resources:
Transcript:
Rosalie Sayyah, aka Rhinestone Rosie, first got jewelry lovers’ attention as an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow. But she has earned her customers’ loyalty for her ability to repair vintage costume jewelry and perfectly match missing rhinestones when no one else can. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why so few jewelers will repair costume jewelry; what she looks for in the pieces she buys; and how to start a costume jewelry collection of your own. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, I’m talking with Rhinestone Rosie. You may already be familiar with Rosie. She has her own retail outlet in Seattle, and she does a strong mail order business. You may be familiar with her by seeing her on Antiques Roadshow giving the price of vintage jewelry to people who want to know. Welcome back.
Sharon: Why don’t they make them anymore?
Rosie: I don’t know exactly why, but take a company like Schreiner. They’re so collectable. Most of the stones that were put in that jewelry in the 50s and 60s came from a secret stash that he had from the early 20s and 30s. They just don’t make them anymore. A lot of new jewelry is Lucite, plastic stones, not glass, not crystal, so there is a problem with soldering, of course.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I didn’t think about that. Do you ever have a problem letting something go if somebody brings in a whole collection, and you’re going to sell 9% of the pieces, but you want one that you want to hold onto for whatever reason?
Rosie: I’m not sure I understand that question.
Sharon: Do you ever have a problem or a question of letting something go when somebody brings in 99 pieces?
Rosie: I want to buy it and they don’t want to sell it?
Sharon: Or they want to sell it and you think you should be selling it, but you can’t let it go, so you buy it?
Rosie: Of course, yes. There are pieces that never hit the sales floor, you bet.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Do you teach classes on vintage jewelry and rhinestones? You said you do a lot of talking.
Rosie: The only thing I’ve done lately has been the talks. I used to do classes in my shop. I would drag chairs from the tavern down the block. But we’ve rearranged the floor plan of our shop, and it doesn’t suit itself very well. I’m still very, very aware of Covid, I’m sorry. I do wear a mask when I’m in my shop. People don’t have to wear a mask if they come in. That’s why we’re only open three days a week, to limit exposure. I probably wouldn’t do classes that way for a while. I’ve taught a few one-on-one people how to repair, especially soldering. People wanted to learn, but it’s just practice.
Sharon: It is hard. That’s a good way to look at it. I don’t have the patience for that, but you’re right, it is practice. You say that you’re self-taught. Have you taken any makers’ classes besides reading books, any education?
Rosie: The only thing I’ve done is I’ve gone to a lot of—there were conventions and seminars back East and also on the West Coast over the years. Through the years, I’ve attended a lot of those, but it wasn’t repairing. It was just learning more about what things are, what they look like and what I want them to look like at the end. Both of my parents were older, so I grew up with an atmosphere not from the 50s and 60s, but the 30s, 40s, 20s. It just soaked into me how things looked, what they liked.
I’ve learned from other people, other dealers, about what they like, what they sell and sharing that information. I’ve also learned from my contemporaries on the Roadshow, invaluable stuff, but no classes. There is really nobody that could teach me that because in schools they don’t do what we do. I don’t use an open flame torch; I use a pencil soldering iron, various glues. It’s tricky. You can easily melt a piece and destroy it for a customer. You have to be very, very careful.
Sharon: Has that ever happened to you, that you’ve destroyed a customer’s piece accidentally?
Rosie: No, it’s been more of my own. I do a lot of repairing on my own. I’ll buy a broken piece and fix it. I’m knocking on wood here. I haven’t had that problem, totally destroying something.
Sharon: When you refer out to people who work with gold, let’s say, do they ever look down on you or look down on what you’re doing because it’s not real?
Rosie: If they do, they’d better not tell me because I’m sending them business. But I get that feedback a lot from people. They say they’ve taken this jewelry into their jeweler and they pooh-pooh it. “No, no, we can’t fix that. We don’t work with that stuff,” so they send them to me.
Sharon: I was thinking they say, “We don’t work with that stuff.” It’s too cheap or it’s not real or it’s whatever.
Rosie: Yeah, whatever it is. I don’t know. I think that’s not a good customer relations attitude.
Sharon: I think that makes a lot of sense. Did you have any—I’ll use the word compunction. Did you have any reservations or compunction about centering your life around costume jewelry and rhinestones?
Rosie: If you saw my house, you’d realize that I’m a major gardener. I’m very physical and active. I walk a lot. I read a lot. But I don’t bring my stuff home per se. I don’t have a storeroom here in my house. The pictures behind me are my husband’s. He’s traveled all over the world taking photographs. It is a life built around it. That’s fine and that’s who I am, but I’m also a different person that is totally devoid of any kind of sparkle.
Sharon: What is your favorite kind of costume? You mentioned 50 watches. What is your favorite kind of jewelry?
Rosie: I like necklaces. I think a necklace can transform the whole image of the outfit you have on and the way you feel about yourself. It’s one of the things we can see when we have it on. We can see rings, watches, bracelets. We can’t see earrings. We have to look in a mirror. But a necklace, it can be a real changer to you. I know a lot of people wear necklaces 24/7. I don’t. I don’t have a little gold chain on with a little diamond or anything like that, but I like necklaces and brooches. I wear more jackets in the winter, so I wear a lot of brooches, but I wear necklaces with my outfits year-round, so that would have to be it. I also wear rings and watches.
Sharon: What would you think if someone wanted to collect costume jewelry or rhinestone jewelry? Where should we start? Is there somebody we’re not looking at?
Rosie: I would say buy what appeals to you and wear it and see if you like it. I don’t like to focus anybody on a certain name or area. Most people, when I ask them how they started or how they collect, they say, “Oh, I buy these things that shine.” That’s one way to do it. If you happen to find a name you like, I would say you can focus on those pieces, but I don’t try to steer anybody in any certain direction. I just say buy what you like and enjoy it. It doesn’t matter what anybody else says to you. That’s how I buy.
Sharon: Do you think the stuff that is around today is as long-lasting as the stuff of yesteryear?
Rosie: No, not at all. Glue and plastic and that kind of thing, the way they’re made, no. Back in the 40s and 50s, these pieces were all hand-set. They were all prong-set or glued in individually if they were not prong-set. Today, it’s more mass hot glue gun, stick them on, pile the stones on, and they just fall off. The settings are not strong. I would agree with you. Contemporary jewelry does have some issues.
Sharon: I’ve been stopped sometimes in a good way, like, “Oh, that’s a pretty necklace. It’s shiny.” I don’t buy it, but I don’t not buy it because of the money. In my head, I think, “Oh, that won’t last that long,” not because it’s not made well, but because it’s a contemporary piece. Do you know what I mean?
Rosie: I do know what you mean, yes. People go to Hawaii and buy the nut necklaces. It’s what I call tourist quality. They even did that back at the turn of the century. When people were on the Grand Tour, they would buy little pieces of jewelry. They’re better made than our tourist quality today, but it was still way lower quality. That’s when the industrial revolution came in and made things able to be mass-produced. Then they could sell it better. Not just the aristocracy would have jewelry, but anybody could have jewelry. That really did change, too. The commoner can have a little pin or whatever.
Sharon: The necklace you have on has big, bold stones. Is that the way it started? Did people have less conspicuous things, and then they became used to that and started having things that are big and bold?
Rosie: Yes, in the 50s after the war, people wanted to celebrate the American way. This is America. This is screaming, “We are big and bold!” If you think of cocktail parties, cocktail rings, your jewelry wouldn’t just have one necklace. This necklace has a matching bracelet, earrings and a brooch and maybe even a ring. The women would be totally decked out in this. I think it’s totally an American quality, really out there, very proud of what they have, big and bold. That’s what happened in the 50s and 60s, but we didn’t get our ears pierced until the 60s. We were still wearing the clip-on earrings, because a loose woman would have her ears pierced. That was funny.
Sharon: My mom would say, “Whatever.” Have you ever seen a piece that’s too—I want to use the word gaudy without saying it’s gaudy, but it was too big and bold?
Rosie: Oh yeah, I have. Something about it would be a little demonic or something, but it had those elements to it. Oh yeah, I’ve seen that, but that’s O.K. It’s just an expression of what that person wanted to make, and I can totally understand that. There were two guys, DeLizza and Elster, and we call it D&E Jewelry. They just started making stuff they liked, and that’s usually some of the best jewelry, I think. You just let it flow. Make what you like.
Sharon: I didn’t mean to interrupt, but they were D&E and they segued to Juliana?
Rosie: Juliana, I think, and I might be mistaken, was the name of one of their daughters. They didn’t sign the jewelry. It only had paper tags, but there are certain industrial components to the jewelry that I can identify that it’s by D&E or Juliana. We call it Juliana. Schreiner is another company. There are certain elements of Schreiner jewelry you can identify if it’s not signed. Miriam Haskell had a certain quality to her jewelry that you could identify. There are other names, too. Trifari had a certain quality. Even though they had different designers, there was always a certain quality to the jewelry. You could pick it out. When I go to a sale, I can narrow in and get through all the other stuff and pick out certain pieces that I want.
Sharon: Yeah, with costume jewelry, the challenge is that so much is not signed.
Rosie: Yes.
Sharon: It is. That’s interesting, that you can pick out the ones you think are different makers or you can tell from the way they’re made.
Rosie: Exactly. Sometimes, the first thing I do is look at the back of the piece. I tell people, “Look at the back and see how it’s made. It’ll give you some clues.”
Sharon: What are you looking for?
Rosie: I’m looking for what kind of catch it has, the hinge and stem, the material it’s made of. Is the back hand-polished? Is it not hand-polished? How heavy is it in my hand? What type of stones did they use? How are the stones set? Are they fully pronged or is it just a glued-in stone? Those little clues tell me a lot.
Sharon: Do you think that’s over with? All the manufacturing techniques you’re talking about, do you think nobody’s doing them?
Rosie: I’m not up to speed on exactly—I know Iradj Moini, he had some fabulous, well-done pieces. He used all the old techniques, and that’s the newest designer I have. A lot of stuff is being made in China. Joan Rivers’ stuff is being made in China. J. Laine is being made in China. They’re good, but they still don’t have all of that total, hand-touched stuff. Heidi Daus, I like her pieces. They’re very colorful and bold. I got a whole estate of it, and they sold like boom, boom, boom. People were like, “Wow, I like this!” She uses bold colors, but they’re not prong-set; they’re just glued in. I have to say that fine jewelry maybe has some of those elements of the manufacturing process, but costume jewelry is slowly going away from that. They can’t afford to do it.
Sharon: Yeah, I can understand.
Rosie: No, mm-hmm.
Sharon: Especially with what’s coming in from China, it’s hard to tell what’s real and what’s a copy.
Rosie: Yeah. I do like a lot of stuff coming out of India. They do a very good job of stone setting and stone cutting. I like some of those contemporary pieces, but I’m just not—maybe somebody out there can give me a little heads up and tell me who’s doing what. I would definitely appreciate that.
Sharon: If we’re not in Seattle, you work nationally, don’t you? You work nationally and you have a website.
Rosie: Oh yeah, people can mail us stuff. I don’t go look at something in Alabama. I’m not going to travel to look at your collection, but you can always send me an email or a picture and ask questions or if you want something repaired. Definitely, go to our website, get the address, boom, mail to us. When I receive it, I look at it. I get you on the phone. I like to talk to you on the phone and say, “O.K., I’ve got your stuff. This is what I can do. I can’t do this.”
I have a lady in New York. She sells antique purses. She’s been a customer for years. She’ll send me huge boxes of purses. I have two hatpin collectors, dealers. They send huge boxes, one back East. Actually, I think she’s in Washington, too. Anyway, dealers have no problem at all once they discover what we do, because it’s very time-consuming to do and our prices are quite reasonable.
Sharon: Yeah, they are.
Rosie: Even the pieces we sell, the prices are very reasonable compared to a lot of other dealers. It’s like, “What are they thinking when they put that price on there?” If it’s a really cool and very rare piece, we will put a higher price on it, but people do buy it. That’s why we’re still in business after 40 years. They find us when they need us.
Sharon: That’s true. They probably need you very often.
Rosie: Yes.
Sharon: If we want to keep on top of what you have, would we look at the website? Would we look at Instagram? Do you not change things?
Rosie: The pieces online are not in the shop. They can be brought in. It’s a very small, limited, vetted collection that goes online, but in the shop, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of pieces. Just about anything you would need or want we could probably find for you.
Sharon: There’s a limited amount that you find on the website.
Rosie: Right.
Sharon: So, I would call you up and say, “I have a green dress and I need something, What do you think?”
Rosie: Oh boy! In that case, I could shoot you a picture of several things and tell you how much they are. If you’re interested, we’ll ship them out to you.
Sharon: I wish you had more on the website.
Rosie: It’s a lot of work to do a website. My daughter does all that. I would imagine if I ever retired, that’s probably how I would get rid of most of my inventory. I’d have to rethink and redo that. But now, if you really want to see what we have, you come into the store.
Sharon: That’s good to know.
Rosie: It’s interesting though, Sharon, my annual visitors, they come. I’m on their bucket lists. They come once a year. They fill up on their glitz and they’re very happy. We have cruise ships coming out of Seattle. They go to Alaska and people come in and say, “My husband’s not here. He could care less, but you’re on my list when I’m in Seattle.” People will come.
Sharon: It’s true. I think you’re the only person on our bucket list. If I had a written bucket list, that would be it. Thank you for being here today. We really appreciate it. I hope to get to Seattle soon.
Rosie: Thank you. Thank you so much. I hope to see you in person soon, too.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Rosie Sayyah
Rosie Sayyah has been selling and repairing vintage and estate jewelry from her shop, Rhinestone Rosie, in Seattle since 1984. In the early 1980s, Rosie felt her family tradition of dealing in antiques calling to her. Upon leaving her corporate career in television, she decided to open a jewelry store that not only had unique, exciting items for sale, but also where she could restore greatness to jewelry that had fallen into disrepair. Teaching herself about vintage costume and estate jewelry culture and repair through books, hobby shops, and hands-on experience, Rosie has become a national expert in the field. In the late 1990s, she began appearing regularly on “Antiques Roadshow” on PBS TV and continues today as one of their expert appraisers.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional resources:
Transcript:
Rosalie Sayyah, aka Rhinestone Rosie, first got jewelry lovers’ attention as an appraiser on Antiques Roadshow. But she has earned her customers’ loyalty for her ability to repair vintage costume jewelry and perfectly match missing rhinestones when no one else can. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why so few jewelers will repair costume jewelry; what she looks for in the pieces she buys; and how to start a costume jewelry collection of your own. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, I’m talking with Rhinestone Rosie. You may already be familiar with Rosie. She has her own retail outlet in Seattle, and she does a strong mail order business. You may be familiar with her by seeing her on Antiques Roadshow giving the price of vintage jewelry to people who want to know.
All I know is that whenever I have a piece and I can’t find the stone that’s the right size, or I know it would be impossible to find the right kind, the color of the stone, or I know it’s out of production—maybe it’s a really old piece—I turn to her. She hasn’t let me down yet. Many of her stones are out of stock elsewhere, but somehow she manages to find them. We’ll hear all about her business today. Welcome to the program.
Rosie: Thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure. I love to talk about jewelry.
Sharon: I’m so glad you’re here. How did you choose the name Rhinestone Rosie?
Rosie: It was kind of a joke. I was an English minor in college, and alliteration is something that’s very memorable. I was dealing with my sister over the mail. She was sending me pieces and I would sell them. Just as a joke, I signed a check Rhinestone Rosie and it stuck.
Sharon: So, from the get-go, from day one, the name of your business was Rhinestone Rosie.
Rosie: That’s right. That’s correct.
Sharon: Does Rhinestone Rosie refer to any kind of costume jewelry stones or just rhinestones?
Rosie: Oh no, we deal with all kinds of jewelry. Beads and metals and pearls, all materials, and actually all ages. We do a lot of repairs. In our shop, our inventory goes from, I would say, the 1870s through present day.
Sharon: I know you have some pretty old vintage pieces, but I don’t know how old the antique line goes. A hundred years?
Rosie: Exactly.
Sharon: When did you first become attracted to rhinestones?
Rosie: It’s hard to say. My parents had a secondhand business, and they repaired things and sold them. This was in Orlando, Florida. I helped my mom reupholster furniture, and sometimes in the old furniture, we would find a piece of jewelry and she would give it to me. It wasn’t always rhinestones. I collected rocks when I was a kid, and they always had cut glass in the store. They had a secondhand store, and I just loved that cut glass. I’ve always liked shiny things, so that must have been what led me to this.
Sharon: And that includes all the shiny costume jewelry.
Rosie: Exactly, yes. And I like to work with my hands. I’ve been doing that since I was a little girl. So, working with things, that was just a natural offshoot.
Sharon: How did you get into the repair aspect of it? From your parents?
Rosie: No, actually after I had my baby, Lucia, I had a friend who had a vintage store in Seattle, and I would help her. I would bring home clothing and patterns and do mending on clothes, and she always had broken jewelry. I asked her one day, “Do you ever fix this?” She goes, “Oh, nobody really does. I do it once in a while.” So, I did some research and found out that nobody really repaired this jewelry. I thought, “Hmm, this is something I can do,” and I went to the local hobby shop, the guys that did model cars and model airplanes. They told me what lead solders to use, what glues to use, what paints to use. They were very helpful. They told me all kinds of stuff. I’m self-taught, so there it is. I bought a bunch of books and read the books. I learned how to knot in between beads and practiced through trial and error. I had to go through a lot of stuff.
Sharon: But you did this all yourself. As you were saying, there aren’t that many other places that do it.
Rosie: No, I don’t think there’s a full business anywhere that does it. A lot of dealers will do some of their own. A lot of my contemporaries who did similar things have all either passed on or decided to go a different route. I think I’ve got a monopoly on it.
Sharon: I don’t know anybody else who does it or has a store like yours, but I didn’t want to say it without knowing for sure.
Rosie: I think you’re right.
Sharon: That’s why I’m surprised you’re not in New York.
Rosie: Oh, no, we left Florida in 1973. We got as far across the country as we could. We wanted a big city, which Seattle is, and water and a temperate climate. We ended up settling here.
Sharon: It sounds like you made the right choice, but in terms of jewelry and being surrounded by jewelry, I think of New York first, Chicago maybe.
Rosie: I know. A lot of my contemporaries on the Road Show are from back East. I am an anomaly for sure, but it is what it is. That’s what I do and I do it well, if I might say.
Sharon: I know in my jewelry cabinet, I have a pile of things and say, “Oh, that should go to Rhinestone Rosie’s because I know she can fix it. There’s nobody else that does that.” Until I found you, there were pieces I would toss or, like you’re saying, give away or just say, “I can’t do anything with it.”
Rosie: Exactly, I remember. You did come into my shop. It was a pleasure to meet you in person one time. We did close for about three months during the pandemic. Now we’re only open three days a week in the brick-and-mortar store, although our online is still going on. I have people coming in almost daily with their pile of stuff that’s been saved for two or three years. They’re finally in the shop to get fixed.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I noticed that you’re only open a few days a week, which seemed to be fewer than before.
Rosie: Yes.
Sharon: What percentage of your business is mail order?
Rosie: I would say mail order and repair—because we do local repair. Of course, people walk in, and then people mail us things from all over the world. I think it’s about a 50/50 split, for online sales and for walk-in sales and repair.
Sharon: Wow! I have a friend who was a little hesitant about sending something that was precious to them. It wasn’t a precious item, but it was precious to them. I did it. I didn’t have any compunction. She did it, too. Where do you source the stuff you have, your vintage pieces? Where do you get them?
Rosie: People just bring it into the store. Sometimes, I’ll go to a yard sale or something and pick a piece, but mostly it’s people that are downsizing or someone just passed. The family has chosen the pieces they want. Sometimes there’s even a note in the collection, “Take this to Rhinestone Rosie.” It’s kept me going, and I don’t have to go out and beat the bushes.
Sharon: That’s great. Have you found it’s harder to get things in or harder to find things because costume jewelry—
Rosie: Oh yeah, the good stuff. I know there were a lot of manufacturers at the time, but I’d say the high-end pieces are in collectors’ hands, and they go from one collector to another collector. They’re not normally available in the market. Every once in a while, you will see that someone found something in a box of junk or something. What was so fun on the Road Show is uncovering something like that, but most of the time, it’s hard. It’s hard to find the good stuff, so you’ve got to change your focus. Right now, it’s more modernist and clean lines, big, chunky necklaces. It’s different than it was in, say, the 20s, 30s and 40s. Some people change.
Sharon: Do you think that costume jewelry has become more popular over the years or right now?
Rosie: People need to learn about the vintage pieces because there are lots of ones like dress clips or fur clips. They have a different way of attaching to the fabric, shall we say, but today a lot of stuff is coming out of China and Korea. There are very, very good contemporary artists making costume jewelry.
Sharon: With eBay and all the online sources, do you think it’s harder to find? People know what they have, let’s say.
Rosie: I don’t think they know what they have, but I think there’s a lot of the lower-end stuff. You could buy costume jewelry in a dime store. You could buy it in a pharmacy. You could buy it in a department store. You could buy it at a jewelry story. Jewelry stores and department stores usually sold the best quality. A lot of people bought the lower-end pieces because they were cheap, 10¢, 25¢, sometimes $1. I’ve seen more of that and less of the higher-end pieces.
Sharon: The audience can’t see this, but maybe you’ll send a picture. You have a beautiful Juliana necklace on. Do you think people know if they have a piece of jewelry on, I shouldn’t bring that to you, I should try and sell it elsewhere?
Rosie: It’s funny because they say, “I didn’t think you wanted that big, ugly stuff. It’s too gaudy,” and I’m like, “I want that. I want big, bold and ugly.” This is what people don’t understand, especially in the plastics. It’s very hard to find good Bakelite and celluloid and other plastics these days because people just toss them. But if they have something like the necklace I have on, I think it would give them pause, and they would bring something like that to me and I would be glad.
Sharon: As the market changes, like you mentioned, if it’s cleaner lines or contemporary, do you change with it?
Rosie: Oh sure. Part of my job, Sharon, is educating people on what they have, how to wear it, where it came from, when it was made, what the materials are. I’ll have someone come in. Let’s say they’re going to a wedding and they want a pair of earrings, and they think rhinestones can only be that clear, diamond-looking thing. When they walk in the shop, they realize it can be red, green, blue, purple with an iridescent coating like the necklace I have on, and they go out with a green pair of earrings instead of the clear ones. My job is not only educating people on what they have, but how to wear it, how to take care of it and, yes, it can be fixed. Don’t let your high-end jeweler tell you that it can’t be fixed. Just keep looking and you’ll find me.
Sharon: That’s really true. I have found that a lot of high-end jewelers tell me they can’t do anything, and somebody who’s more an engineering type feels they can do something with it. They can fix it.
Rosie: Exactly, yeah. I spend a lot of time re-repairing things that someone else did. “My father soldered it or my husband,” or “I used this kind of glue.” A lot of our repairs are removing the glue and old solder and getting it down to a basic where I can rebuild it back.
Sharon: Is it you or does somebody else work with you on repairs?
Rosie: Me and my daughter, we both do it in the shop. We don’t send it out. We don’t work with gold, and we don’t do silver solder. We do lead solder. But yeah, these hands, that’s what they do.
Sharon: Did you approach Antiques Roadshow or did they find you?
Rosie: It’s funny. In 1997, they did the first launch of the program, and Seattle was one of the test cities. Some of my mentors who do fine antique jewelry said, “Rosie, you should have been there. We had so much costume jewelry come in and we didn’t know what to tell people.” Long story short, my background is in television. I used to be a producer. I made commercials, and I knew the producer was the one to call.
So, I called WGBH, a guy named Peter, and I said, “Hey, my name is Rhinestone Rosie,” and there was a beat. I said, “I’m not a stripper. I can walk and talk at the same time. I’m fairly presentable on camera and I know about costume jewelry.” He said, “Yes, we would love to have you.” So, in 1998 in Portland, Oregon, it was my first show. I don’t think I taped. I was a little bit afraid. I’ve always been behind the camera, not in front of the camera, but I got over that pretty quick. Yeah, I did call him up and I said, “You need me.” I did it for 20 years.
Sharon: That’s sort of connected to this question. I didn’t know how to phrase it, but it seems to me that a lot of stylists would come in and say, “I’m doing a 40s show. What do I need?” Does that ever happen, that you have a stylist come in?
Rosie: It happened a lot more before the pandemic. Whether things changed in that industry, I don’t know, but yes, we had a lot of stylists or a magazine shoot. If they were doing a shoot, they would come in and pick out pieces. We used to rent our pieces, but we don’t do that anymore because people just wouldn’t return them. But yes, we get stylists. We would get theater seamstresses, the designers, the costume makers for theaters. We didn’t get a lot of movie people in, but maybe this’ll help. We can help them if they need us.
Sharon: Is it hard to decide what color or what kind of jewelry somebody should have?
Rosie: What I do is ask them about their lifestyle and what they want the piece for. I look at them. I see how they’re dressed, how their hair is cut, and I can pretty well sus out if they’re an edgy person or they’re a modest person, kind of timid. We have tiny, little earrings, big, bold, down-to-the-shoulder dusters, and you can usually tell by talking to someone. Someone who’s got nose piercings and whole-body tattoos, they’re not going to go for something real mild.
You can pick up on their body language. That’s helped me a lot, plus I encourage people to bring in outfits and put them on. It’s like the Barbie doll thing, just dress them and put jewelry on. They can try it on, and if the necklace is too short, we can adjust things. We can change earrings. Most of our earrings are clip-on or screw-back. We can change them to pierced if they want. We do that with our jewelry, or we can do it with your jewelry.
Sharon: What’s your return policy if they decide they want to take it home and try it?
Rosie: They get a store credit.
Sharon: A few of the pieces don’t work. Maybe it’s your daughter who told me that something wouldn’t work. I can’t even tell the stone apart from the original stones. How do you decide that? How do you decide if it’s going to work? Can you tell us about some of the pieces that haven’t worked, where you’ve had to come back to somebody and say, “I can’t find anything”?
Rosie: Some of the older stones, I would say pre-1910 to the late 1800s, a lot of those stones, I can’t find. I’ve taken stones out of pieces. I try very hard. If the piece comes in and the stone I’m matching is slightly discolored, I’m not going to put a brand new, shiny stone in its place. I will try to find in my pile of stones one that is slightly discolored. I try very hard to match it.
But, yeah, there are times when we just can’t fix a clasp or it’s in a place that’s too thick for us to solder or the thread is so weak and the restringing cost is prohibitive. We do understand sentimental value. We try to let people know that we appreciate what they have and we understand. It doesn’t matter to us if it cost 25¢. If it’s important to you, it’s important to us. So, if we honestly can’t fix it, we tell them, “No, we can’t fix it. We can’t help you.”
Sharon: How did you get your inventory? You have quite an inventory of stones that you can put in pieces.
Rosie: 40 years. I do have a source for new stones. Sometimes I’ll even go to Etsy and try to find something, but I’ve taken a lot of stones out of pieces. There have also been people through the years—like there was a lady who made earrings that sold in Nordstrom. Her name was Nellie, and she called me up and said, “I’m going out of business. Would you consider buying some of my stones?” That kind of thing. Jewelry stores have back inventory. When they close, I love to go in and dig around in their storerooms.
But I can’t buy stones that are unfoiled. I don’t do a lot of that because if you glue an unfoiled stone in, the foil is what makes a rhinestone shine. It’s like a little mirror. So, if it has no foil on it, I can’t really use it. A lot of stones out there have no foil backing, and I can’t use those. But most of time, it’s just here and there. People hear about me, or they have a hobby or they know somebody who’s fixed their own jewelry and they’re wanting to sell. I’ll look and see what they have, and I’ll pick and choose what I might use.
Sharon: Did you have any reservations about opening this kind of store in Seattle?
Rosie: No. I had it all over the kitchen table, and my husband said, “Hey, you’d better start a business because this has taken over our house.” I had no idea how to do it, but all I needed was the license. I shared space. Actually, right next door to where my shop is now, I was in the front of her store. I just had a desk and some jewelry behind me.
Now, this is a really good story. Again, my background is television, but I also have a degree in advertising and public relations. So, I printed up business cards and marched into I. Magnin and Frederick & Nelson and the major boutiques in downtown Seattle. I said, “This is what I do. I can help you,” and I walked out of every place with something to repair. That gave me street cred, so I could say, “I repair jewelry for I. Magnin or Nordstrom.”
I’ve never been afraid of talking about my abilities to do what we do and that we do it well, and I’ve always been true and honest and open to my customers. I learned that from my parents. That’s how they ran their business. I started with very little cash. I didn’t get any loans. It was a bootstrap business, and it’s grown to what it is. I’m very proud of it.
Sharon: As I was putting these questions together, I kept asking myself, “What are you doing in Seattle?”
Rosie: Why in Seattle? I just ended up where I was.
Sharon: It’s a nice place, but I wouldn’t think of it as the first place I’d open anything.
Rosie: We’re busy enough. There’s a lot of money in Seattle and there are a lot of people. They might dress in Gore-Tex or flannel or whatever, but they like a little bit of bling. The thing is it belonged to grandma or Aunt Masie or somebody, so it’s sentimental. It’s not always something they’re going to wear all the time. I don’t wear jewelry all the time, but it’s something you look at and hold and treasure. I wanted to preserve that for people.
Sharon: You don’t wear jewelry all the time. That’s interesting. I don’t have jewelry on today. A lot of times I realize I don’t have any jewelry on. People used to say, “Well, you’re the kind of person who wouldn’t go out without earrings.” Do you stop and put on a vintage piece?
Rosie: Well, I’m not an earring girl. I wear rings, watches, necklaces and brooches. Usually, I only wear them when I’m in the shop or if I’m giving a talk, a lecture. I do a lot of lecturing for groups about the history and culture of rhinestones. Sometimes I’ll even dress totally vintage, the shoes, the hat, the dress, the jewelry, usually from the 40s. That’s what my era seems to be. This is a 50s, 60s necklace I have on. Of course, when I did the Roadshow, I always wore jewelry and people loved it. I would get so many emails, “I love your jewelry. That’s cool.”
Sharon: I always say something. If he’s watching the show, “Oh, it’s Rhinestone Rosie.” I can see why the jewelry gets attention.
Rosie: Oh, yeah.
Sharon: Do you collect anything?
Rosie: I didn’t start as a collector. I started as a merchant, so my collection is just based on what I learned about. Since I did so much lecturing, I liked to have a piece of almost every major name that I could show to people. I do have that type of a collection. For some reason, I collect vintage watches. I have maybe 50 watches. It’s insane.
As far as jewelry, I think my whole collection is very modest because I purge occasionally. I find if I’m not wearing it, I will take it to the shop. We’ll sell it, and people get excited when they find out it is something I have worn and loved. I don’t mind doing it. I’m not afraid to separate myself from some major pieces. Right now, I’m more into the clean, modernist lines, a lot of metals. Mexican 40s jewelry I really like to wear. Usually my clothes are very simple, one color, and then the jewelry is the standout part of it.
Sharon: Do you think that older Mexican jewelry is included in modernist?
Rosie: In what?
Sharon: In modernist?
Rosie: Oh yes, they were influenced by it greatly. In the 40s and 50s, some of that jewelry is –
Sharon: It is beautiful.
Rosie: Yeah, I would say it’s definitely influenced by a modernist approach, yes. It shows in the Pre-Columbian and the Spanish people that came over, but that’s what makes it intriguing. Look at Georg Jensen. You can have that flow, that feel in the 40s Mexican pieces. I have seen new designers make pieces that take my breath away. They’re crazy, like things that wrap around your neck and stand out, nothing I could possibly wear, but I certainly appreciate.
I don’t know what we would call today’s costume jewelry. This term came about because Coco Chanel, Elsa Schiaparelli, they made costumes. Their clothing was costume, and they said, “It needs something.” So, the jewelry that went with it, the term costume jewelry came from that happening.
Sharon: That’s interesting. What if they had made it out of real pearls and real gold?
Rosie: Chanel combined both. She wasn’t afraid to wear costume and fine jewelry at the same time. As matter of fact, the word rhinestone—the best costume or stones came out of Europe, near the Rhine River. The first piece of rhinestone was a water-washed piece of crystal that came from the Rhine River. So, the name rhinestone has become ubiquitous, like Kleenex or anything like that. It is actually from a piece of crystal from the Rhine River, because the best stuff still does come out of Europe.
Sharon: That’s interesting.
Rosie: They make the very best. Certain brands or names in costume jewelry use these incredible stones. You just can’t find them anymore. They don’t make them anymore.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Matthew Imberman
Matthew Imberman, along with his sister Carrie, are the co-presidents of Kentshire Galleries. Established in 1940 and spanning three generations of family ownership, Kentshire Galleries is one of the foremost dealers of fine period and estate jewelry. In 1988, Kentshire established a free-standing boutique in New York’s premier luxury store, Bergdorf Goodman. Their antique and estate jewelry department continues to occupy a select location on the store’s seventh floor. As the third generation of the family to lead Kentshire, Matthew and Carrie continue to refine the gallery’s founding vision: buying and selling outstanding jewelry and objects of enduring design and elegance.
Additional resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Through a partnership with fashion designer Ulla Johnson, Kentshire Fine Jewelry will have a permanent presence on the West Coast for the first time. While other dealers might change their approach to appeal to a new market, co-president Matthew Imberman continues to buy jewelry based on one criterium: whether he loves the piece or not. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history behind the collaboration with Ulla Johnson; why following trends isn’t the best way to buy jewelry; and how Covid changed his business in surprising ways. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Matthew Imberman, who, along with his sister, Carrie, is Co-President of Kentshire Fine Jewelry. Welcome back.
And that’s what you look for in the jewelry you’re purchasing, whether it’s Bergdorf—
Matthew: Absolutely. Look, it’s not to say there aren’t some things that excite that are unusual or might be something we’ve had before, but we still love them. There are certain archetypes of jewelry, like a great French tank bracelet. Those are out there, but there are great ones and then there are O.K. ones. I think we’re always looking to find one of the best or better versions of what we can find in the category. Are we going to say that every single item we get is unique? No, that’s not the case. These things were made in stereo even in their lifetimes, so we’re looking for the best examples, in the best condition and the best materials for those kinds of items.
Sharon: Do people bring you jewelry and say, “My mother died, and I want to sell this”?
Matthew: Yes, we certainly get that, or “This was in my safe deposit box.” Certainly, it’s part of it, which is a good part of it. There are times when we are able to source good pieces from our clients. I think it depends, because we deal in nostalgia and people who come to us with pieces that were left to them by family members. There’s a nostalgia link, and there can sometimes be a bit of telephone between what they were told. Let’s use, for example, if they say, “My grandmother left this to me, and my grandmother told me that this is where she got it. This is what it was.” The stories sometimes change over time, not from any evil intentions, but just because people didn’t save receipts or they don’t know exactly what it is.
So, somebody will come up and say, “Oh, I have this piece. It’s just like what I saw in your store, and my grandmother left it to me. I want to bring it in.” They’ll bring it in, and when you hold what they brought and what we’re selling next to it, they’re very, very, very distant cousins. It's not that theirs is inherently bad, but it’s not exactly the same thing. But people tend to look at items through a nostalgic viewpoint. So, they say, “Oh, I was left this,” “My grandmother told me this diamond ring is worth X amount.” It puts us in the awkward position of saying, “Well, it’s a lovely thing, but it’s not exactly what you were told it was.” Those are some of the stories, but by and large, we’re given the opportunity to see wonderful collections from our clients. We’re fortunate enough to have them be loyal, if they have more pieces, and to come back to us. We don’t frequently buy from the public, but it’s not something we never do.
Sharon: Where do you source a lot of your things from? Do you ask? Do you source it from abroad or whoever walks in the door?
Matthew: We mostly work with a small group of dealers like ourselves. They’re people who have been in the trade a long time. Trust is still a big part of our business. We have to know each other. We’re dealing in valuable items, things where trust is important and you want to know who you’re buying from. I think that’s the case in any business for the most part. But we mostly buy from dealers like ourselves who are in this world. Whether or not they’re retailing, they’re dealing with other jewelers to sell pieces they understand so they can place them.
For instance, I might have a client for a piece and one of my colleagues in England I know might have a version of what I need and I can call them up. In that way, it allows me to have a greater reach than just my inventory. The colleagues are not competition in the sense that we need each other to stay in business. It’s a small group of goods that we all admire and we all like to buy and sell, but we also have to do that with each other so we can have the inventory we need to service our clients. One of my colleagues in France can have something if they need it. So, it’s really an old-world business that way.
Then auctions are really hyper-retail, at the end of the day, for a lot of pieces. I think they’ve done a great job of convincing people that there’s a steal to be had, but when you look at the prices and how they land, if you’re buying a bracelet, it’s going to end up for around the same price, if not more, than what you’ll pay in my store or one of my colleague’s stores. But it comes with a three-inch-thick binder about why, if something’s wrong with it, it’s not their fault and how they don’t offer any post-sale service and yada, yada, yada. We all deal with the auction houses to a certain extent out of necessity, but we’re not very bullish on them, and I think for pretty understandable reasons. Every once in a while, we look at estate sales. People who buy estates are buying the entire thing, and we’re cherry pickers. We’re looking for the three or four really interesting items, and to do that, you usually have to buy the entire estate. So, we rarely do that, given that we’re working with a specific and small group of goods.
Sharon: Have you always been involved? You had a career before this, right?
Matthew: At this point, I’ve been in the business for about 22 years, I think, if I’m doing the math right. Not always on the jewelry side, although always around it. Like I said, we also had a large business in antique furniture, English and continental furniture and decorative arts at the same time we had jewelry. I was originally on that side of the business. Before that, I did a master’s in art history, so I was gone for a while. That was part of what made sense in terms of coming in the business, but also in terms of lending itself to jewelry. The specific studies we did, it was in decorative arts. You’re covering a lot of the different motifs and the techniques that were also happening in jewelry at the time. So, that planted the seed. I spent some time in contemporary art before that, working at the Met on their website, but that’s ages ago now.
Sharon: In the past few years, you mentioned people being less formal. Out here we’re so casual. Here you can wear nice jewelry, but a pair of shorts and a T-shirt. Have you seen a change in the kinds of things people buy? What are the trends you see?
Matthew: I think it’s challenging sometimes for people like us, who aren’t dealing in manufactured goods, to look at the trends and to understand if these are actually sales-driven trends or things that are catching an eye on social media. Instagram will load your feed with them, but does that translate to what is actually being bought and sold meaningfully? It’s interesting when I see little trends pop up on Instagram and people start running with them. Whether it’s a designer or a type of good or it’s the newest thing, they’re talking about vintage jewelry. They’re talking about something that people have been buying and selling for decades, if not centuries at this point. It’s always the phase of, who is deciding which trend is in?
For us, we’re trend agnostic. I don’t buy something with the idea of “This is going to be the next big thing,” or “Everyone right now is focused on this.” There’s been a moment of people buying Georges L’Enfant jewelry, but people have been buying Georges L’Enfant jewelry for a long time in America without knowing necessarily who the maker was. They’re just now catching up on, “Oh, that was a maker who was making for Hermès, VanCleef, Cartier, and who in their own right was an incredible designer who was making pieces for bigger houses.” They may know the bigger houses without knowing the maker. That can raise the price of L’Enfant overall, but for us, it’s not going to change specifically how we buy because we have to find a piece. If I walk out tomorrow and see three L’Enfant pieces, and those three L’Enfant pieces don’t belong in a collection, it doesn’t matter that they’re buying L’Enfant. It doesn’t matter that that may be trendy. If I don’t think they belong in a collection, then they don’t belong in the collection.
My sister has extremely rigorous standards, and I do too, so we buy the best examples of what we like. People say that all the time. They say, “What do you buy?” and we think “We buy what we like.” We wish we could explain it better, but it’s just how we are. Every couple of years, people will launch an article and say, “Oh, the brooch is back,” and I think, “That’s a bit lazy. The brooches never got away.” Some people will feel less comfortable wearing them, some people will feel more comfortable, or people might say, “Oh, it’s old-fashioned,” and this or that. But for dealers, we all buy and sell brooches. It doesn’t change my feeling. If I see a beautiful one, a beautiful pin, we want to buy it. If my sister sees a beautiful 18th-century brooch and she thinks it’s great, she’s not going to say, “Huh, well, brooches don’t sell.” Is it the right brooch? Does it represent something we think our clients should own?
One of my friends who’s out on the West Coast said, “Oh, so you’re going to bring a lot of astrology signs,” and I said, “If we have nice ones, absolutely.” I understood what they were saying. There certainly is a great market on the West Coast if you have a wonderful Cartier zodiac collection, for sure. We’re not going to buy that because they could do well out there. That’s not who we are. If we see one that’s particularly interesting and has a great weight and represents an acceptable value given how those have crept up in price over the years, yes. But just because we’re there, we’re not going to be doing that, if that makes sense.
Sharon: If somebody brings you a pair of earrings that don’t fit with what people are going to wear today, but in your opinion they’re well-made and well-priced, would you be interested?
Matthew: Absolutely, because we don’t approach it through other people telling us what people won’t wear today. We have clients in a lot of different areas of the world, different ages, different price points for what they’re buying. We can just look at it and say, “You know what? We think this is a good looker.” If there are 10 articles tomorrow by somebody in the know saying, “No one is wearing this kind of earring anymore,” that’s not going to affect our thinking because we’re not buying pieces retroactive to what trends are happening. We’re buying what we like, and we like to think that anyone, whether they’re trend-driven or not, can come and see our collection and find something that might speak to them.
Sharon: Have you seen a decrease in the age of people who come in and can’t find anything because maybe they’re looking for something that isn’t jewelry?
Matthew: I think for us, the understandable barrier to entry is always going to be price, withholding our costume collection, in which you can find pieces that are in the hundreds of dollars range. Fine jewelry in our collection by and large starts at $3,000-ish and creeps upwards to millions of dollars. We understand that not everyone puts the same value on jewelry as we do. So, for some people coming in, if they’re looking to buy a piece of jewelry, they might have a totally different price point in mind than what our collection is, and that we certainly understand. We’ve always tried to have a range of prices.
Part of the challenge, though, is because we deal in pieces that are made up of commodities, gold, diamond, things like that, and those commodities have prices that fluctuate. As gold has gotten very strong, the price for us to buy good gold jewelry has gone up because the gold is more valuable, so the price for our clients is more expensive. That’s also a good insurer for them, in that if you own gold jewelry, the value has continued to grow as the price of gold goes up. We don’t really buy that way. There are some dealers who will buy very specifically based on what the piece weighs if they have to scrap it and what the value of gold is today. We’re not buying pieces that we hope anyone would melt down at any point, especially when you’re looking at antique pieces. The amount of gold in an antique piece, because of the way they were constructed for the most part, they’re not going to be particularly heavy in terms of how much gold is going to come out of them. So, the value isn’t in the actual materials there. I think it just represents something a little bit different.
Certainly, on Instagram we get more information about what our younger clients are looking for. Everyone sees value in different places. How they want to spend it changes, and how we’re able to conduct the business in terms of skewing towards younger clients changes, but we’ve been encouraged to see our client base on Instagram start to fall in line toward what we see in the store. It really represents the spread of ages.
Sharon: There’s all this talk about younger people. I’m not talking about 18-year-olds or younger. Everybody in the world is younger than I am, but you hear about younger people not wanting to buy jewelry. They don’t buy as much jewelry even though they could afford it. They just don’t buy as much.
Matthew: I will say that our main client was never a “young” client simply because of the prices we’re talking about for most people. Even if they didn’t want these things or maybe were saving for a house, I think what’s different is if you look at the advent of how handbags have become such a status symbol, the prices of handbags are commensurate, if not much greater than a lot of fine jewelry. That creates a really interesting secondary market for handbag resale.
I think the story people got in the pandemic was everyone saying, “Oh, they just want experiences,” but we’re talking about a time period when everyone was fetishizing experiences because we were all locked inside and couldn’t do anything. We had robust sales, surprisingly, during Covid, and when we were coming out of Covid, too. We had a steady increase in new clients because I think people were excited to be out again, excited to be wearing something, excited to not just be dressed for a Zoom meeting. I think jewelry plays a part in that story most remarkably. It’s wearing your sculpture around and drawing attention to yourself in what we’d like to think is a unique way, hopefully wearing something that not everyone else has.
Sharon: You answered the next question before I asked it, which is did you see a change? I heard from jewelers that they were seeing an increase during Covid because people weren’t going to fundraisers or whatever, but they were spending their money.
Matthew: It’s interesting I answered something where there is sort of a long family story. I have a meandering way to answer any question, I know, but I’m glad I had one at least. Did we speak during Covid or right before when we had our first interview? I can’t remember, but I do remember thinking when Covid hit, “We had a really good Christmas. If we don’t sell another piece of jewelry for a year or so, we’ll be fine. We’ll just batten down the hatches,” but like anything else, people still wanted to collect. People wanted to look at something new, boost their spirits, what have you. People weren’t going to fundraising dinners or vacations, so this was something where they said, “Normally I would spend X amount eating out, but now it turns out I’ve saved all this money not eating out. I can afford a beautiful bracelet.” We were surprised that happened.
During Covid, the real challenge became finding goods. We could sell things and send them, but it became very challenging to see our colleagues, to find pieces, to do all that. That’s where we had to get a lot more clever and targeted for how we acquired things. Coming out of Covid, I think we’re all playing catchup, and not just from our business’ standpoint. Everyone is. Everyone’s calendar has changed a little bit. A lot of our clients who would go out to the Hamptons for the summer but would be here during the year realized that their job is more portable than they thought, or they’ve changed how they work altogether so they’re out of their house a lot more. So, they’re shopping on our website now instead of coming into the store. Or, they’re out at their houses, which they’re fortunate enough to have wherever they are, at other parts of the year, so when summer comes, they’re in New York at times and we don’t expect them.
Weirdly, our summers used to be rather quiet but tolerable at Bergdorf, and we would expect to get some of our bigger administrative projects done. Now we find that people are coming in and tourists are coming in in the summer, when it used to be very slow. We have to change when we take our vacations, when we need to do our projects, how we plan for the fall season, which has come and gone in terms of when the planning has to happen. It keeps us on our toes, but part of what’s good about being a small ship is that we’re nimble, so we’re able to course correct pretty quickly if we have to. We’ve been in Bergdorf long enough to know the rhythms of the store.
What I don’t think any of us anticipated was what tourism would be like in New York, especially with the story being what it was elsewhere. We found ourselves really blown away with the reaction of people coming back to the city and how many people were coming through. In my short walk between Rock Center, where we have our offices, and Bergdorf, which our staff will do multiple times a day bringing goods back and forth, it got to a point where you couldn’t walk down Fifth Avenue. I’d go to Sixth Avenue and walk down there because it was so busy. It’s been interesting to see the resurgence of people visiting the city. We have more people coming to Bergdorf, which leads to more sales. We keep ourselves busy trying to find new pieces.
Sharon: That’s very interesting. I hadn’t thought about that, especially when you say the jobs are more portable. I think I’m the only one who’s at home on their couch looking at Instagram.
Matthew: I can tell you from behind-the-scenes looks at our Instagram numbers, you’re not. Even for us, we have to be in our offices because we work with a physical, tangible good. I couldn’t be a person who works from home all the time. I also don’t think I would be well-suited to the routine of being in an office. But we need to be in and around the jewelry district to see new pieces as they come in, to run a repair. We physically have to be there, but even in the realm of what we do, we’re more flexible. If I need to work on the road or work from home or do something here or there, the technology has made it so we can do that, too. For all our clients, it’s the same thing.
The social calendar in New York has changed dramatically as some events have changed over and come and gone. What people feel they need to go to, how people are dressing for them, that’s changed a bit, too, so it’s changed how people buy. Obviously, the holiday season is always a very strong season for people in our world and when we do a lot of business, but we find it’s spread out around the year a lot more now as people are not buying for occasion-specific pieces. They’re not just saying, “I’ve got this birthday, this anniversary.” The pace of their lives has changed it.
Sharon: That’s interesting. You preempted my question. I was going to ask you about changes. Does that impact how you think about Los Angeles or the West Coast, where there are no seasonal changes really?
Matthew: In terms of seasonal changes, I have friends who work in different areas, whether they’re in a hifalutin financial position or they’re consultants at luxury groups, and they come and say, “We want to help with this.” They’ll look through and figure out how to optimize or create a strategy. When they spent time with us, they realized, “We do not know how you do what you do.” It doesn’t really subscribe to the more traditional models of how somebody might run this kind of business.
I understand that if you are Tiffany and you’re doing things on the West Coast, you might change how you skew your line sheet for what kinds of pieces people might wear, because that kind of style isn’t going to work when somebody is wearing a shift versus a sweater. We are not clever buyers like that. Again, we look at things and think, “This is a great thing. We can see one of our L.A. clients wearing this. Let’s send it out there.” So much of what we do is by feel and a kind of very educated guess. It’s easier in some ways, the variety of pieces we can send out West because we’re not worried about people taking gloves on and off when it’s a ring. When you’re in the city and you’re taking a ring on and off, maybe it could get caught. I don’t know how much they’re concerned about that in New York now. We tend to think the same way.
If you’re a collector of vintage cars and you understand you’re buying a vintage car, you know it’s going to require special handling at times. You can’t drive it down every road. You might need to bring it to a different mechanic than where you bring your daily driver. We expect, to a certain extent, that people buying fine vintage jewelry understand the spirit of that too. They’re not bringing it to the person at their mall to have it fixed. They’re not wearing it in the pool. There are parts of these changes we’re happy to walk people through, but whether you’re East or West Coast, there’s a certain sensibility we think goes with wearing the pieces.
Sharon: Do you think people gear up for the holidays? You said you also do during the year, but do you gear up?
Matthew: We acquire year round, and we put out a catalogue usually in the fall. That’s always a challenge for us in that we love doing it and we spend a lot of time putting it together, but as we finally get to finish the product and it goes in the mail, the pieces have already been available. So, you get this heartbreaking moment when a client calls and says, “I got this catalogue. I’m out in California. What’s on page three?” and we say, “I’m so sorry. It’s sold.” But it allows you to start the conversation and say, “We can try to find you something you like. Maybe we have something that wasn’t in the catalogue that’s new, and we can talk you through it.”
We have a sense for how people respond, but in terms of the West Coast specifically, I don’t know. We’re curious to see what that’s like. I assume that titans of retail who also make their money on the West Coast around the holidays are doing things somewhat in lockstep with what we’re doing on the West Coast. People still celebrate holidays and buy gifts out there. We think it’s probably going to be the same way, but again, we don’t live or die based on holidays. People come every day and say, “Oh wow! That must be crazy,” and I say, “You know, we’re not the right lid for that pot.” Not to say we don’t sell things based around that, but we’re not specifically holiday-driven dealers. We’re not looking to get in a million hard pieces for Valentine’s Day and have everyone get something for their sweetie. Our core client is women who are buying jewelry for themselves. It creates a different experience than when you’re making a gift purchase.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Matthew, thank you very much. I hope we all get to come out to Bergdorf and see your stuff. I hope you’re not deluged with people coming to your administrative offices. You can direct them to Bergdorf. Thank you very much. I learned a lot today. Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Matthew: Thank you for having me. We look forward to seeing you out West soon.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Matthew Imberman
Matthew Imberman, along with his sister Carrie, are the co-presidents of Kentshire Galleries. Established in 1940 and spanning three generations of family ownership, Kentshire Galleries is one of the foremost dealers of fine period and estate jewelry. In 1988, Kentshire established a free-standing boutique in New York’s premier luxury store, Bergdorf Goodman. Their antique and estate jewelry department continues to occupy a select location on the store’s seventh floor. As the third generation of the family to lead Kentshire, Matthew and Carrie continue to refine the gallery’s founding vision: buying and selling outstanding jewelry and objects of enduring design and elegance.
Additional resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Through a partnership with fashion designer Ulla Johnson, Kentshire Fine Jewelry will have a permanent presence on the West Coast for the first time. While other dealers might change their approach to appeal to a new market, co-president Matthew Imberman continues to buy jewelry based on one criterium: whether he loves the piece or not. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history behind the collaboration with Ulla Johnson; why following trends isn’t the best way to buy jewelry; and how Covid changed his business in surprising ways. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Matthew Imberman, who, along with his sister, Carrie, is Co-President of Kentshire Fine Jewelry. At Kentshire, fine jewelry encompasses almost everything that you would categorize as fine jewelry: bridal, engagement rings, signed pieces, retro and even fine costume jewelry. They’re the third generation to be involved in jewelry. Their administrative office is on Fifth Avenue in New York, and their retail location is on the seventh floor of Bergdorf Goodman.
Matthew is a returning guest who was with us several years ago in the pre-Covid days. Now, I’m excited to hear about his collaboration with the designer Ulla Johnson in their new store in West Hollywood. It’s not often that New York jewelers come out this way, so I’m looking forward to hearing all about it. Matthew, welcome to the podcast.
Matthew: Thank you for having me.
Sharon: I’m so glad you’re here. What about the West Coast clientele surprised as you were doing the store?
Matthew: We have deep roots on the West Coast despite not having our own Kentshire branded store out there. We’ve been longtime exhibitors at the San Francisco Fall Show. The show has had some changes through the years, but we’ve been exhibiting for more than three decades, easily. Because of that, we’ve tracked with some of the West Coast feeling of our clients. Throughout the years, we’ve done different shows in L.A. At one point, we did have an agreement where we sold our pieces at Gump’s. It’s not that we are new to the West Coast, per se, but we have taken a bit of a hiatus. So, we were interested in getting out there and bringing what we have to our clients who are there.
But by and large, it’s not that we have a different sensibility about what we do for the West Coast versus the East. Kentshire has its viewpoint, which is a simple one. Carrie and I buy things that we think to be interesting, made well, rare. Whether it’s from a famous designer or not, something that’s not something you see every day and that we think will please a variety of our clients’ sensibilities, but primarily it also has to please ours. At the end of the day, we end up looking at the pieces, whether they’re with us for just a day or whether they’re with us for a few years, so we buy things we like. We think that’s a good viewpoint for anyone.
So, for our West Coast clients, we are not such nose-in-the-air New Yorkers. We love our West Coast clients. We have family on the West Coast. We’ve spent a lot of time there, so for us, it wasn’t like, “Oh, my god! We have to think through a whole new client type.” It was, “No, we’re so excited to bring something we do to clients that, in some cases, do know us because we’ve been out there or they visit us at Bergdorf, but also clients who we haven’t seen and who are friends of friends or know us through Ulla.” So, we touch all bases there.
Sharon: I think you mentioned earlier Gump’s San Francisco Show. I don’t even know if they’re still having that show.
Matthew: It did take a few years off during Covid. It is happening again. I believe it’s the 14th or 15th of October—I’ll have to look back on the dates—at the Fort Mason Complex in the Festival Pavilion. I know this year Lauren Santo Domingo from Moda Operandi is attached as one of the social chairs. They have a fantastic gala evening. The show is run by Suzanne Tucker’s entertainment team, who is just a consummate professional. What a combination of taste and savvy there. So, we’re excited to be there, but we did the show when it was at the Santa Monica Air Hangar in the years back. We’ve done different shows off and on. It’s been harder, I think, for a show to stick there, so to speak, but we also think it’s a good fit for us. We’ve certainly started and stopped a few different shows in L.A., but it’s been a long time since we’ve been in the city proper.
I should add, actually—I’m leaving out the most glaringly obvious thing we did there. When Opening Ceremony had their larger line with accessories before the company went through restructuring during Covid, we also had our fine jewelry in Opening Ceremony. That both had a fashion bent and had a lot of store-within-a-store feeling, similar to what we’re doing with Ulla. We had a targeted collection that was there in L.A. that represented us on the West Coast. We did that for, oh gosh, at least five years, I think.
Sharon: I must have missed that because there’s not any fine jewelry, except for maybe the big, commercial jewelers that are out here in Los Angeles. From what I’ve been told and from what I see, the clientele is very different.
Matthew: It’s funny. You know more because your boots are on the ground. We have a different feeling, but I’ll say even looking at clients reaching out to us through Instagram or our website, we find that certainly the West is very well represented. The information, the data behind it, can sometimes be skewed because we have clients who come into Bergdorf, and they must happen to mention to us, “Oh, I’m visiting from the West Coast.” Maybe we’ll get a little more granular detail, but I do know that when we look at the information, which we try stay up on for how people approach us and our work, we certainly feel that the West Coast is no slouch when it comes to looking at jewelry. I think that also shows with some of the dealers out there.
Sharon: There’s money out here to buy it. Maybe it’s because I’m not really wild about the kind of jewelry they tend to wear. Who did you work with in terms of Ulla Johnson? Did they come to you, the designer?
Matthew: I wish Carrie were here for a number of reasons. She’s my business partner and obviously brings a tremendous wealth of knowledge and experience to the business, but she and Ulla have been longtime friends. I’ve known Ulla for a very long time, too. Ulla’s husband and her family have been close for a long time because my sister and I share a friend group, and she’s got some really wonderful friends. They’ve just had an affinity for each other and known each other, came up through a variety of different jobs together, and have always been very close.
Ulla has always had a fantastic eye and really understood antique pieces, understood how a combination of design, manufacturing and color all come together to set some of these pieces apart. Throughout the years, she has grown in her notoriety, which now is incredible to see looking at the store on the West Coast in a picture, which we don’t get to see in person until we go out in September. We’re going to do a little trunk show, which I’ll do a shameless plug for, on the 20th of September. We’ll have more info for you as plans come together.
Ulla has been a client of ours and borrowed things from us. We’ve worked together because we’re friends, but sometimes friends don’t always work well together. In this case, it’s been beautiful because she’s got such a clear vision of what she designs. It suits our inventory. Again, there’s a reason she and her are friends. People tend to share a visual vocabulary. It’s been a really good, seamless blend of both being in allied fields, jewelry and fashion obviously marching together to the same step, but also our viewpoints of what matters in terms of how things are designed, how things are proportioned, how colors work together or don’t work together, how these things can interplay. We’ve been fortunate to count Ulla as a client, but much more fortunate to count her as a friend and somebody who inspires what we do when we look at things and address clients. What is she looking at? How are those things playing together? There’s a lovely synergy there.
Sharon: Were you involved in picking the jewelry, or was it Carrie and Ulla who picked the jewelry to go in the store?
Matthew: I take a much more hands-off approach in terms of that because Carrie and Ulla do not need to hear from me. I’m always happy when my opinion is asked for, but I also understand, and given that Carrie and Ulla are old friends—really, friends are not the same. They’re very, very close. My influence is surplus to their needs. They’ve got it beyond spades, what they need to do, and they play off of each other.
Ulla has a very clear vision of what she wants. She’ll look at our collection or see things as they pop up on Instagram and get in touch and say, “What about this? What about that?” Similarly, when Carrie and I shop—because, again, we look for clients that we like. We love clients who are buying for themselves with a clear viewpoint, and that is Ulla to a T. So, we’ll look at things as we’re buying them and say, “This is the kind of thing that is for Ulla or her store or this kind of client.” One can never expect that means if you buy that piece, it sells in that way, but it does pull a spring at times on how we’re acquiring certain parts of our collection. Thus far, it’s proved pretty accurate.
Sharon: I’m surprised. I’m the same as you; I’ve only seen the pictures of the store. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of jewelry, at least from the pictures.
Matthew: In the press pictures, it’s hard to see. When they did the press pictures and when the store opened are largely different things. Obviously, one has to get the message out ahead of time before they open the doors. In one of the pictures, you can actually physically see the showcases, but I can send subsequent pictures that show you the jewelry displayed in them. There are two lovely floor cases, top-down vitrines that you’d be looking into.
We’re not looking to have 20 showcases. Given our requirements for how we purchase things and what they need to look like and the requirements we have for how we buy inventory, if we needed a whole new inventory for an entire store of jewelry, it would be extremely difficult. Right now, with the stock we have—not that everything sells immediately, but buying things is challenging because we do have a viewpoint and specific standards. Not to say there aren’t a few things here and there that might be more bread and butter or commercial pieces.
Even when we’re sending things out to Ulla, we’re looking for things where it doesn’t matter. It’s not like, “Oh, we’re sending them out to another collection, so it can be different from what we put at Bergdorf.” Everything has pretty strict standards. In Ulla’s space, they have two lovely, very interestingly built cases, I have to say. They’re things I would never be clever enough to design in a million years, but it’s displayed very, very beautifully. It’s a very focused collection. We’re not talking about 500, 600 pieces.
Sharon: So, you do have vitrines and showcases.
Matthew: Yes.
Sharon: Nothing shows. It looks like you just have a few pieces.
Matthew: That’s just in the press photos. I understand with these things, there’s always pressure to get the press photos out so the major press can be done, and the major message there should be Ulla. We are kind of an inclusion below the fold, but inasmuch as we are there, as they merchandise and get the pieces out there, this is the soft opening, as they say. Every store has to work out some of the kinks when it opens. In this case, it’s easier for us given the nature of what we sell and it being valuable things that can’t be just mixed in and around the inventory to cover Ulla after the fact.
The formal opening is going to be closer into October, when we come out. By then, we’ll have better photos of how everything is displayed in the store. People will come here and say, “There’s always a new way to do design that somebody hasn’t seen.” At the end of the day, it’s still jewelry on props. Whatever they are, you still want people to see it and go after it. I think it’s a tremendous success, given that they have a wonderful designer they worked with. Ulla herself has such a vision, and we were happy to be in the mix.
Sharon: I think it’s a really nice idea. It adds a lot to a store because you usually see—I don’t mean to disparage it—but costume jewelry or whatever the store is selling. You don’t see fine jewelry. How do you keep it secure?
Matthew: It’s all locked up at night, similar to what we do at Bergdorf. Things are in a locked case. If a client wants to see a piece, they work with a sales associate who will show it to them, and then everything is secured at the end of the day. Any proper jewelry store should be doing that. We’re extremely careful and have all our little operations in place. We know their team is a crack team, too, and we will be doing everything to keep it very safe.
Sharon: It looks like quite a large store from the pictures. Everything I’m talking about is from the pictures.
Matthew: Yeah, but if you think of it this way, we operate in Bergdorf, which is a tremendously huge store and has so much going on. Once you know the order of operations and the sales associates understand the specific rules for showing jewelry, it’s fairly straightforward and pretty easy.
Nowadays it’s different. Everything is very secure. Everyone has cameras in their spaces. We were doing retail for quite a long time before the advent of cameras and different sensors and all these ways of keeping things safe through technology. We feel very confident.
Sharon: Do you think it’s bigger than most of the stores in that area? That was my impression.
Matthew: This is where I have to say I couldn’t myself say. I am not an expert on that area of Beverly Boulevard or how the different retailers are size-wise. I know that when we started, it was quite a large store. We felt very comfortable because we’re working with partners who we know well, who are leaders in their fields and have people working with them that are excellent.
Given that Ulla is quite an accomplished designer and has a sizeable presence in New York already and obviously sells in other outlets and units, I would imagine that her store is commensurate with the level of success she’s seen in our store, which is to say appropriate to what she does. Whether bigger or smaller than one of her colleagues, I don’t know.
Sharon: Do you or Carrie have any input in the design of the store?
Matthew: No. Again, this is a lovely partnership and a meeting of minds, but our partnership is—like you said, where some retailers out there might fill their jewelry section with costume jewelry they’ve licensed out to someone else to design, or maybe they have a third party doing it. I think what Ulla saw in us is the idea that we have a similar viewpoint for how we present what we do. Part of the reason, even when you see on social media—if you look at Ulla on the internet, you see how she’s wearing her own designs and her jewelry. It works so well together.
Similarly, with the store, our input wasn’t needed or even appropriate because it’s Ulla’s space to let her designs shine. But we know that whatever she does, her pieces are going to look good within the context of that collection. Despite what the store looks like, the main imprint is still, visually, that all of her wonderful clothing designs and our pieces have worked thus far. We obviously have the utmost confidence in both her and her designer to create an environment that would be wonderful for us to show our jewelry.
Sharon: I don’t know what Bergdorf carries, but do people come to you with one of her designs and say, “What can you recommend to go with this?”
Matthew: I could certainly ask my sales staff. At Bergdorf it’s not uncommon, whether it’s Ulla or other designers, because we work across the store. We have our own specific private salon right on the seventh floor next to the restaurant. It’s a little different than the main jewelry shown the ground floor. It’s just our material, just our sales staff that works for us specifically, and we serve as an outlet for the rest of the store for what is essentially the antique and estate department at Bergdorf.
What happens frequently is, whether it’s an associate who is working in Ulla’s section or somebody working in Chanel, they’ll come and say, “I have a client who’s looking at a gown and needs something to wear with it. This is a picture of the gown. What can you recommend?” Then the client would be able to try on the dress or whatever they’re looking at with our pieces. If something works for them and they like it, then great; we can help them out that way. Certainly, that’s part of it.
One of the benefits for us to be in Bergdorf, aside from the fact that obviously it’s Bergdorf and it gets a wonderful assortment of people who come to shop at the store, it puts us in the context of what people are wearing. While we have collectors who might specifically collect the pieces and wearing is secondary, by and large, our goal is for people to wear what they buy. We firmly believe things should not sit in the safe deposit box. They interact with the designer’s clothing while the client is trying it on with our pieces. That’s the best effect overall, I think, for a client looking at how the pieces are represented when they get them home and when they wear them. They look at them with the real eye.
Sharon: Is there a decrease in the kind of people who are buying a Chanel piece, let’s say, or a Chanel gown, a red carpet look?
Matthew: Oh gosh, in terms of a red-carpet look, that’s where my knowledge of Bergdorf sell-through would be behind. “I don’t know” is the answer, but I can certainly say Chanel is experiencing a slowdown, at least judging by the number of people who shop at the Chanel departments at Bergdorf. Overall, I don’t think I’m any genius or original thinker for thinking this. People have become less formal overall, but that hasn’t really changed what we do.
Yes, we have pieces that might be, to some clients, extremely occasion-specific and one or two pieces that would have to be worn for a red-carpet look, but what we’re mostly buying is something that, given somebody’s own personal comfort level, they can wear with anything. Whether it’s a Deco diamond bracelet or it’s a really simple pair of gold earrings, it’s not for us to say, “Oh, you can only wear that at a fancy dress occasion,” or “Oh, that’s just casual.” We like to think that’s where one’s own sense of creativity comes into play, because we buy things with the idea they’ll be worn. We’re not looking to pass on family heirlooms to sit in a box all year long. We really love our clients to experience their goods, wear them, have the confidence to wear them however they’re going out. At the end of the day, it’s one of those simple, little items that can really change how an outfit looks or how you feel.
Sharon: I keep thinking about the jewelry in L.A. The collaboration you have, did that come about because you all were having dinner one night and you said, “Why don’t we do this?” What happened?
Matthew: In this case, Ulla, in opening her West Coast store—and I’m speaking secondhand because she and my sister initially had the conversations, but Carrie and I do everything together. So, it became a discussion we all had at one point. I think it was something as casual as, “I’m opening up a store on the West Coast. It would be great to have some Kentshire pieces there.”
We feel so fortunate to have Ulla as a partner in this, specifically because she’s such a good friend and has been so supportive of us when we took over the business. She has been herself one of the more inspiring collectors we have. Looking at the variety of pieces she’s purchased that range from very modern to very old to things that are almost costume to things that are extremely fine—everything together, there’s such a personal viewpoint about how these pieces come together. I took it as an incredible honor when she said she wanted to include us, because I don’t think Ulla necessarily needs us to sell her fashion. She’s so capable of creating a look that is beyond what we’re able to think about. We’re jewelers. We don’t think about fashion that way necessarily, although we’re certainly around it and we love it.
In this case, I think it was a much more casual meeting of the minds where she said, “You know what? We all love each other. Let’s work this out.” Then Carrie and Ulla talked about the details and figured out how it would work, and I played a supporting role in doing whatever I could do. Now we’re seeing the fruits of that together as the collection is coming out West and people are starting to see it.
Sharon: You mentioned some of the—I’ll call them baby things you’ve tried out here, but do you think this is a beginning? Do you intend to do other things and make your brand more known out here?
Matthew: Certainly, we would like our brand to be more known out there. In some ways, it’s the biggest no-brainer for us, in that we have a lot of clients out on the West Coast, not just specifically the Northeast. We have a lot of clients who’ve purchased from us over the years. The challenge for us is always that I can’t call up the factory and say, “Send me another 300 of those antique bracelets I sold.” We’re a piece at a time. So, the challenge is always finding enough material that meets our qualifications so we can service all our clients.
I think what we’re hoping to see happen, all of us, is that this becomes successful, and we continue to grow our presence with Ulla and create a bigger collection for her there, which allows us to run similarly to how we run in New York. It’s a comfortable setting for us, being in a fashion space and having clients coming in we know are already in the mindset of looking at jewelry and clothing together. I don’t know if we necessarily have the appetite to open our own store out West, all things being equal, simply because it’s more than a full-time job between Bergdorf and the website. So, for us having a partner like Ulla who can handle the day-to-day operations—and her team is so wonderful. To be able to do that is invaluable to us.
We’ll be doing trunk shows out there where we come and meet people at Ulla’s store and introduce them to her brand and our brand, absolutely. That’s something that will be starting in September on the 20th in the afternoon there. Then we’ll continue as it goes and as we all find a good rhythm for how that works.
Sharon: So, she did buy high-end. She bought what I call regular pieces that you wear every day and really high-end, over-the-top, red-carpet stuff.
Matthew: We don’t deal in things that we think are over the top simply because we’re not looking to sell such specific pieces that way. It’s not to say we never have, but it’s by and large not a focus of our collection. I think what is incredible about Ulla’s eye is she’s looking specifically for what she likes. She’s not looking at the of-the-moment piece or asking, “What do I see happening in the next year?” and it shows with her clothing. Ulla has this specific viewpoint. She’ll see something in our collection and the first qualification isn’t, “Oh, does it cost a lot or a little?” or “Is it by this designer?” It’s, “Do I like it?” It’s the simplest question, “Do I like it?”
I think that nowadays, it’s easy to get misled, even in the vintage jewelry world, with what’s the hot thing now or who’s the hot maker. At the end of day, for us, the most important consideration is, “Do you love it?” I know it sounds pedantic to say that, but I think it’s easy sometimes to have the other parts of the piece drive it. Somebody will say, “Oh, who is it?” first or they’ll say, “How much is it?” or “What’s the size of the stone?” or what have you. This can all be important. I’m not saying they’re not, but I think we’re a good match for Ulla because we all approach the concept first of, “Do we love this? Does this excite us?” And then, “Why does it excite us?” Then, as you start to uncover the parts of what the piece is, if it’s by somebody, if it’s from a certain place, if it’s from a certain time period, if it’s got a rare stone, then those add to the excitement. But it has to be something inherently beautiful and unusual.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Machi de Waard
Machi de Waard is a designer-jeweller and jewellery tutor. Jewellery has been her full-time pursuit since early 2007, and Machi’s work has been shown at galleries, fairs and exhibitions. Machi combines her studio practice with teaching, having taught jewellery making for over ten years in various locations throughout the UK. Her interests in modern art, particularly in sculpture and minimalism, influence her work.
Additional Resources:
-www.machidewaard.co.uk
-insta: @machi_jewellery
-www.janetrichardson.co.uk
-insta: @janrichardsonjewellery
Book links:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney,com
Transcript:
Working with metal might seem like something best left to the pros, but Machi de Waard’s new book smashes that misconception. Written with Machi’s friend and co-author Janet Richardson, “Silver Jewelry Making: A Complete Step-By-Step Course,” includes seven projects that help beginner makers build on their skills and make real jewelry at home with simple tools. Machi joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the serendipitous way the book got published; why silver is the best metal for beginners to start with; and which common mistakes DIY makers should watch out for. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone, welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Machi de Waard. She, along with Janet Richardson, is the coauthor of the book “Silver Jewelry Making.” They are both jewelers and teachers in Great Britain, and that’s where she’s speaking to me from. Welcome back.
That’s what I wanted to ask you. Do people say to you, “Why do you work in silver and not gold?”
Machi: I’m happy to do any commission in gold. We both do commissions in gold. It’s just harder to afford to do large pieces in gold unless somebody’s already paying you to do it. It’s just very, very expensive.
Sharon: Do you ever rhodium plate your silver with Argentium, or whatever that brand name is?
Machi: Argentium. I use a lot of Argentium in my own work, almost exclusively but not quite, because it doesn’t tarnish as much as sterling silver. Janet uses some Argentium silver and sterling silver. I do not rhodium plate partly because rhodium has actually become very expensive as well, and I prefer not to plate things because if there’s a plate, it can come off. You don’t want the customer to have a piece that looks great and then you have to replate it over a few years. So, I don’t really like to plate my pieces unless absolutely necessary. I don’t think Janet does much plating either.
Sharon: What’s your favorite kind of thing to make? Is it a bracelet, a ring, a necklace?
Machi: Oh, I like all of it. I think Janet and I are both—what’s the word—I was going to say obsessed, but maybe passionate sounds better. We are both never bored of jewelry. We like to make pretty much everything. I would say at the moment, my favorite thing is brooches, but I’m happy to make anything.
Sharon: I’m not any kind of maker, but it seems like a brooch would be easier because you only have to make one of those, as opposed to an earring or something where they have to match.
Machi: Yeah, I suppose so, although earrings don’t have to match.
Sharon: Today they don’t. That’s true.
Machi: In the 20s they wore mismatched earrings, so you can always use that excuse. I guess with the brooch, the important thing is the pin. You want a really good pin that’s going to hold the brooch up and it’s not going to flop forward. It will hold on to whatever you’re wearing but also not be impossible to put on and off. There are different things for each piece that you have to look out for.
Sharon: What do you teach your students about pins? Before you even start, do you have to think about what kind of fabric it’s going to be worn with?
Machi: Yes, absolutely. A really small brooch, you could wear on linen, but you have to think about the size of the pin, the material you’re going to put it through, how it’s going to hang, how heavy it is, whether you want a double pin. There are all kinds of different things you can put it on. It depends what you want to use it for, because it’s totally different if you want it for, let’s say, a winter wool coat versus holding on a silk scarf. It really depends on the end use. You have to think about that before you start making.
Sharon: What are the other things you counsel your students to think about before they start?
Machi: The order of fabrication. If you don’t think about it and then you get halfway through your project, then you realize, “Oh, I should have done that before that,” that can cause problems. It’s important to have at least a basic plan of the order you’re going to do things in so that it works out.
Sharon: Does your book talk about that? It talks about fabrication?
Machi: Yes.
Sharon: Did you have to look for a while before you found a publisher? I can’t remember.
Machi: It was actually quite funny. I had been talking to not only Janet, but my other jewelry friends, and I said, “Oh, Janet and I are going to write a book,” and of course it didn’t happen. Then one of our jewelry friends was at a craft fair and a publisher, which turned out to be Search Press, approached her and said, “Do you want to write a book about jewelry making?” and she said, “No, absolutely not, but I know somebody who does.” Then Janet and I approached Search Press and proposed what we wanted to write, and it was exactly what they were looking for. It was total serendipity. We wanted to write exactly what they wanted somebody to write for them.
For us, it was fantastic because Search Press is an award-winning craft publisher. Not only are they excellent at editing and putting together the actual book and the layout and so on, but we had a professional photographer for, I think, five days and we worked in the photography studio. We made the things in the studio and the photographer could take pictures of every little detail. We were worried that maybe there would be a limit on the number of pictures they would take, but he took thousands of pictures. We got all the detailed photographs we wanted, which was so important for visual learners especially, to be able to see exactly what we were talking about.
Sharon: Do you have to be a visual learner for this to work?
Machi: I don’t think so, but that’s because I’m a reader and Janet’s a visual learner. She’ll look at all the pictures and I’ll look at all the words. It turned out to be perfect for the balance, because I was constantly checking the words and she was constantly checking the pictures.
Sharon: I guess I’m not a do-it-yourselfer. Can I learn how to make the jewelry that you talk about in this book?
Machi: Yeah, totally. If you want to, absolutely.
Sharon: If I want to, that’s the question. Did the two of you ever teach together in a classroom or any kind of school?
Machi: No, we generally teach our own classes, but we’ve covered each other’s classes quite a bit. When her husband was unwell, I covered her classes, and when I was doing this degree, she covered my classes. We’re very comfortable taking over from each other because we know what the other is doing.
Sharon: Did you think about doing this book with somebody else?
Machi: No, it had to be Janet.
Sharon: What would she tell me about working with you?
Machi: I think she would say that we complement each other very well. Janet can do everything she wants to with computers, but it’s definitely not her favorite thing. So, I did all the typing. We did everything together. Part of it was during lockdown, so we did loads over Facetime. We would talk over Facetime while I was typing. I typed everything, so that worked out really well. She definitely would have gotten mad at the computer at some point and probably thrown it out the window.
Sharon: Was one of you responsible for CAD or anything like that? When you talk about computers, I think of things that are much more intricate than typing.
Machi: This was just typing. It was just about formatting the text so the publisher could take it and rework it into the format they wanted for the book.
Sharon: Did the publisher tell you how long they wanted it to be or what they wanted in the book?
Machi: Yeah, that was way back at the beginning. When we sat down with them, they said, “O.K., it’s going to be 192 pages.” “O.K.” From the get-go, they knew exactly what they wanted, and then we worked with them within those parameters. It’s also quite funny; jewelers notoriously have terrible nails because they’re constantly getting their nails dirty and breaking. It was actually in the contract that we had to get a manicure before we got the pictures done for the book so our nails wouldn’t be too disgusting.
Sharon: Wow! That’s like a manicurist. A manicurist usually has nails that aren’t done.
Machi: Actually, yeah.
Sharon: So, you had to get manicures before the photos were done.
Machi: Yeah.
Sharon: What kind of troubleshooting tips do you give in the book?
Machi: This is where our experience with teaching really shows because we know in a classroom setting when students get stuck and when they get frustrated. The troubleshooting is about the points that are more difficult. For example, with soldering, there are a lot of little details that can go wrong, and people get frustrated. There’s a whole section about solder troubleshooting.
Then there’s also quite a bit about making joins. Whenever you put something together, like a ring or a bangle or a jump ring, the join has to be really good. It has to be clean, and it has to fit fairly well. So, there’s a whole section about what to do if your join is not good and how to fix it.
There’s also troubleshooting for stone setting because there’s a bit of a temptation, especially with your first-ever stone setting, to get excited and put the stone in to test if it fits before you should put it in, before the item, whatever it is, is finished. Then people get their stones stuck. There’s a whole section for four different ways to get your stone out of a setting because you’ve put it in too early.
Sharon: Can you do something if a join doesn’t fit? If a jump ring doesn’t fit, what can you do?
Machi: Yeah. A clear example is when you make a ring and it’s too small or too big. What do you do? If it’s too small, you can put it back on the ring mandrel, which is like a steel-tapered tool you form the rings around. You can put the ring on it, and then you use a mallet, which is a soft hammer, and you hit it down the mandrel so it stretches it. Just because your ring is too small, all is not lost. You can still stretch it. If it’s too big, you can cut out a little piece and then resolder it and make it the right size. There’s usually some way of fixing it.
Sharon: Do you talk about that just in your classes, or do you also talk about that in the book?
Machi: It’s in the book.
Sharon: Wow! Is the book available everywhere that you would buy an art book?
Machi: I checked and it’s available on Amazon U.S., of course, and Target. I’m trying to remember the other American things. I looked up on the internet where it is. To my surprise, it was available in the Brooklyn Library, which is nice.
Sharon: I’m surprised it’s available in the U.S. I hadn’t thought to look, but I guess it makes sense with Amazon U.S. being so big. I’ve encountered books that are just in Great Britain and they’re not in the U.S., so that’s what I was thinking.
Machi: I think that’s part of the advantage of working with Search Press because they have so much experience in this arena. They got the book absolutely everywhere. It’s on Amazon U.S., U.K., Holland, Japan, Scandinavia, everywhere. It’s also on Penguin U.S., I think on the website. I’m not totally sure if it’s on the website, but it’s definitely available everywhere, basically.
Sharon: Did they do the translating?
Machi: Yup.
Sharon: So, you didn’t have to be involved or worry about any of that.
Machi: No, I don’t even know the details of that. They just took over all of that because they’re super-experienced with these things.
Sharon: That’s pretty good. What’s your next book?
Machi: We vaguely have an idea to do a follow-up book for this, but I think I might have to convince Janet of it. We’ll see.
Sharon: Focusing on silver jewelry again?
Machi: Yes, definitely. We both love making and we love teaching. We just enjoy watching our students go from strength to strength and make their own pieces. Giving people the ability to work on their own is definitely very satisfying.
Sharon: You talk about picking a project in the book and taking it further. Can you give me some examples of that?
Machi: We do the preliminary part of that, and at the end of every project in the book, there’s a progression section which says, “Well, now that you can do this, you can do that.” For example, once you have done all the projects, all the way at the end, it shows that you can also make cufflinks and tie tacks based on the information you’ve learned throughout the other projects. We tried to cover as many different types of pieces of jewelry as possible, so that at the end you can do that.
After that, there’s a section in the back about how to design your own jewelry and how to move forward with thinking about how to design and progressing to make other things. It’s all building blocks. You need the core skills, which are described in great detail, and you can constantly refer back to those, but you can keep building and building and then using the troubleshooting sections to get you out of problems.
Sharon: It would seem like after you write one book, you’d say, “That’s it. I’m done.” What makes you want to write another book?
Machi: I’m not so sure we will because this one took three years from beginning to end. It was a lot of work. It was really, really satisfying, especially because Search Press gave us such a good photographer. It really made it to a quality level that we were very happy with. It had so much detail in the photography and the words. We were really pleased with the outcome and with the feedback we’ve had. We’ve had really good feedback from people saying, “I always use this book to get me out of problems when I’m working on my own.” That’s really satisfying. Whether we’ll actually do another one, I don’t know. I have to talk to Janet again.
Sharon: What would be on your wish list? I keep going back to this. Would it be gold? Would it be silver? Would it be copper?
Machi: I think silver again because this is just seven projects, but there’s no end to how many projects you could do. For example, I’d be interested in adding a project about doing a box, working with hinges, doing gold foil—which is called keum-boo, where you fuse gold foil to silver—or making a large bangle. There’s no end to the possibilities, but just moving it up with different levels of complexity.
Sharon: Fusing gold to a silver object, that seems like it would be asking for trouble in the sense that you’re asking for something to come off.
Machi: Well, the gold foil fusing is actually bonding, so it becomes one metal. It can’t come off. You could scratch it, but you can’t take it off if you do it correctly.
Sharon: Do you see this being the start of your empire, you and Janet, the start of an empire of silver and then going on to bronze or gold or some other metal?
Machi: Both of us just really love silver and the accessibility of silver. Some other people have written very good books about gold. Gold is a whole other thing. I think with silver, there’s so much more to explore that still stays accessible in terms of cost. I think we would probably be more interested in that. I am not sure. It depends. I have to bribe Janet.
Sharon: I’ve heard people say they don’t like silver because you have to polish it and polish it—I’m talking about sterling silver—if it’s not plated. Somehow that stops it from tarnishing.
Machi: There is no getting around that. Sterling silver will tarnish, but it does tarnish more if you don’t wear it. Like a ring, if you just wear it all the time, it generally is going to tarnish less, although it does depend on your skin. Some people’s skin reacts with silver more than others. That’s why I use a lot of Argentium silver, because it tarnishes far less than regular sterling silver. It’s technically more tarnish resistant. It doesn’t not tarnish, but it’s definitely less, so there’s less maintenance with it. That’s why I use that. Janet also uses it to some degree.
Sharon: Is it more expensive?
Machi: A fraction, but nothing significant. Sterling silver is 92.5% silver with the rest being copper, and Argentium silver is 94% silver. It has a higher silver content. It also is copper, but it has a little bit of germanium. The germanium forms an oxide on the outside of the metal, which stops it from tarnishing so it stays white. Well, it doesn’t entirely stop it from tarnishing, but it keeps it from tarnishing as much as sterling. It definitely stays cleaner. If you’re very bothered by tarnish or if you find that you’re cleaning your jewelry, I would say to look for Argentium silver jewelry.
Sharon: Is that something you talk about in the book or in your classes?
Machi: I do talk about that in my classes. It’s not in the book, but that’s partly because when you start, it’s just easier to access sterling silver. Now, you can get Argentium in the U.S. and here, no problem, but Argentium was changing slightly. The inventor of Argentium changed the alloy slightly last year, so it’s better than it was before, but it was still shifting; things were changing. We didn’t discuss it in the book because it would have been too much other information. There’s only so much you can cover with jewelry that we had to limit it somehow.
Sharon: 192 pages is still quite limiting.
Machi: Yeah, and there’s still a lot in there.
Sharon: What is the difference rhodium and Argentium?
Machi: Rhodium is really used only for plating. Argentium is another silver alloy. So, there’s sterling silver and Argentium silver.
Sharon: So, you would make something first and then dip it. I don’t know. I have this image of dipping it in the rhodium, but you would make it out of Argentium first.
Machi: Yes, rhodium is a very traditional thing to plate with. White gold especially is often plated with rhodium to keep it very white and then it doesn’t tarnish. Silver is generally not rhodium-plated, or at least not for individual makers because it wouldn’t make sense cost-wise. It would add a significant amount of cost. Most silver you buy from an individual maker is not going to be plated.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’ve been told that white gold in its natural form yellows over the years. I don’t know if that’s true or not.
Machi: Yeah, that’s why white gold usually is plated with rhodium gold, especially if it’s commercially imported, to guarantee it’s rhodium plated. At the moment, there’s a bit of a shift going on in the industry with rhodium, partly because it was getting so expensive and partially for environmental reasons. It’s not that environmentally friendly. A whole bunch of the platers I use in London were moving away from rhodium to different white metals to change the way they plate so there were fewer environmental issues. So, there’s a bit of a shift going with that. You’ve got to watch the space. Things are changing on that.
Sharon: So, you go back to the same people to buy your stuff from. You keep going back to the same to people buy it. That’s interesting.
Machi: Yes, and we have a list in the book—no, we don’t have a list. We mention a couple of suppliers, but there’s actually a list on the publisher’s website for suppliers because suppliers change, of course. In the U.S., the main supplier is Rio Grande, and in the U.K., the main supplier is Cooksongold. Those are the big suppliers. Their websites are excellent, which makes it much easier to order the materials.
Sharon: Are they related, Cooksongold and Rio Grande? I know Rio Grande. Are they related?
Machi: No, not as far as I know. Their owners aren’t the same, so I don’t think so.
Sharon: O.K. Machi, thank you very much. I’m glad to know that it’s not Machi, it’s Machi. Thank you. I looked at that and thought, “It sounds right.” It’s M-A-C-H-I, and the last name has a “D-E” and then a capital “W-A-A-R-D.” The book is available now. It’s “Silver Jewelry Making,” and it’s available from Search Press.
Machi: Yes.
Sharon: You can find it in the U.K. and in the U.S. and all over the world, it sounds like, or they can contact you. Thank you, and thank you to Janet. We’ll look forward to your next book.
Machi: Thank you very much.
Sharon: Thank you for being here today.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Machi de Waard
Machi de Waard is a designer-jeweller and jewellery tutor. Jewellery has been her full-time pursuit since early 2007, and Machi’s work has been shown at galleries, fairs and exhibitions. Machi combines her studio practice with teaching, having taught jewellery making for over ten years in various locations throughout the UK. Her interests in modern art, particularly in sculpture and minimalism, influence her work.
Additional Resources:
www.machidewaard.co.uk
insta: @machi_jewellery
www.janetrichardson.co.uk
insta: @janrichardsonjewellery
Book links:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney,com
Transcript:
sWorking with metal might seem
d and co-author Janet Richardson, “Silver Jewelry Making: A Complete Step-By-Step Course,” includes seven projects that help beginner makers build on their skills and make real jewelry at home with simple tools. Machi joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the serendipitous way the book got published; why silver is the best metal for beginners to start with; and which common mistakes DIY makers should watch out for. Read the episode
internet is maybe not—I’m not going to say incorrect, but not the best advice. c Sometimes it can be a bit confusing. So, it’s having all the information in one place, and because Janet and I both have so much experience teaching, we know everything in here works. Also, sometimes when you’re reading things or you see stuff on the internet, it’s like, “You must do it this way.” But jewelry making has been around for several millennia, so everything could pretty much be done two or three or even more different ways. We try to emphasize that you could do it this way or you could do it this way, and the important thing is finding the one that works for you.
Sharon: You mentioned that you have a lot of experience teaching. You both have won awards for your jewelry, is that correct?
Machi: Janet has—I just finished an MA at the Royal College of Art in jewelry and metal. I finished two weeks ago. My work was chosen as one of the best of the graduate work this year in the country, which was fantastic. Janet’s jewelry has actually been in Vogue Magazine and is part of the collection of the Dallas Museum of Art, I believe.
Sharon: I think it’s Houston or one of them in the state. Why did you decide to write the book on silver if you have all this experience in different areas?
Machi: Both of us mainly work in silver, so that’s our main metal. We know how to work it really well and we have a lot of experience in it, teaching it as well. I can’t remember if I said this already, but Janet has been teaching for over 45 years. I’ve been teaching for over 15. So, we know what happens in the classroom and when people have problems working with silver. We have a lot of advice.
Sharon: Is silver easier to work than other metals?
Machi: No, it’s just different. Every metal has its properties and its own ways of being easier or harder. I would say it’s just different. For example, if you know how to work with silver, it’s quite easy to then move on to gold, although you will have to adjust certain things. We work a lot with copper and brass as well because those are similar in their working properties, but much cheaper. You can practice things in copper if you wanted to before making it in silver. Each metal has its own pros and cons, and you just have experience with it. The more experience you have, the more different metals you can work with.
Sharon: Why did the two of you decide you had to write a book? Why was it the two of you as opposed to writing on your own or Janet on her own?
Machi: We’ve known each other a long time now, so we already knew we could work together. Actually, we’re good friends, but we also cover each other’s classes. Sometimes I can’t teach, so she does mine and vice versa. A few years ago—it must have been quite a while ago now—I realized that she had really refined her teaching strategy. She had a really good, 10-week program that had projects that build and build the core skills. At the end of the 10 weeks, the student could move on to their own designs. I thought, “This whole structure is so beautifully done. It works so well. It would be ideal for a book.” So, it was my idea to write a book, but it’s her experience and her class structure that we used.
Sharon: Did you have to think about it a while before you actually wrote the book? Did the two of you have to think about it?
Machi: No, we already knew exactly what we wanted to do because our teaching style is very similar. We knew the projects we wanted to include. We knew basically exactly what we wanted to do. So, that was a good thing.
Sharon: Can somebody spend $10 or $20 or $50? How much do they have to spend in order to have the stuff to start making something?
Machi: The way we structured the book, it’s sequential. You should start at the first project and then build on that. Each project has a list of tools you need for that project, and then the next one says what more tools you need. A lot of the tools are things you have at home already, like a glass bowl and a marker pen and a piece of paper, that kind of thing.
Then there are a few specialized tools you need to get. At the beginning of the book, we have a large section about all the tools and which ones are worth investing in a higher-quality version, which ones aren’t, which ones can be substituted with a regular household item like a teaspoon. It really depends on how much money you want to spend because many of these tools—there’s a huge trade in secondhand tools. If you have time, you can shop around and get a good deal.
To answer this question, this morning I had a look at the first project. If you buy everything new, if you don’t already have some of the household things like a glass bowl, it’s roughly 120 pounds, which is $150, to get all the tools new. That means you could definitely spend less than that. For example, if you’ve done beading before, you will already have pliers. It’s kind of a woolly answer, but it depends on what you already have; it depends on how much time you want to shop around; it depends on whether you go to car boot sales, which are not called that in the U.S. What are they called? Garage sales. If you to garage sales, that’s it.
Sharon: I’ve done only a little bit of silversmithing, but the big thing I remember is the safety and the gases and all of that. How do you deal with that?
Machi: Silversmithing is bigger, so there are more issues, but jewelry making is quite small. Generally, the safety is about protecting your eyes and your hands and feet, so goggles, gloves and closed shoes. Then there’s really commonsense stuff, like if you have long hair, you should tie it back. You shouldn’t wear dangly scarves or anything that could get caught in the machinery. When you’re working that small, there are some precautions, but you don’t need any of the fancy equipment. The main thing I would say is you need to have some sort of ventilation. You can’t work in a completely closed room with no windows.
Sharon: Why did you decide that you had to write a book like this? What was the catalyst?
Machi: I have a huge collection of jewelry books. It’s sort of embarrassing how many I have. I have pretty much all of the ones that have been written. But sometimes the problem is that they would explain a certain skill that I was interested in, and then I sat down to do it and there wasn’t quite enough detail to do it. I would sit there and be like—it would say something like, “And now solder,” and I was like, “But how?” and “What do you mean?” and “Which solder?” and “What are the details?” We tried to breach that being extremely detailed and acting like we were there in the room with you saying, “Don’t forget to do this. If it doesn’t work, try this,” all those little details that make it possible to do it successfully.
Sharon: Can you wear this stuff afterwards?
Machi: Oh yes, absolutely.
Sharon: So, you make earrings or a necklace, something you can wear.
Machi: Yes.
Sharon: What do you do with the things you’ve made? Do you exhibit them?
Machi: My own work you mean?
Sharon: And Janet’s.
Machi: Oh yes, both of us sell. We have work in galleries and craft fairs and exhibitions and a little bit online as well, but mostly we do in-person craft fairs and shows and things where we sell our jewelry.
Sharon: What made you decide you wanted to get a master’s in—I don’t know what you call it there, but here we call it a master’s—in the different kinds of metals?
Machi: Yeah, it is a master’s. The Royal College of Art here has an incredible amount of equipment, so it was partially to try new equipment that I wouldn’t have any access to normally. Also, their technicians there are phenomenally skilled. It was all the little things that are like, “Yeah, I could do that a bit better.” It was a year to really push my skills to the next level. It was an enormous challenge to spend that much time making something absolutely perfect.
Sharon: What did you learn that you didn’t know before?
Machi: I generally make jewelry, so I made some larger pieces. I did something called scoring, which is like origami except with metal. You make a tool which you score the metal with. If you can score paper, you just fold it, but you can’t fold metal. You have to make a little groove to fold it. So, I made the tool to make those little grooves, and those little grooves are at exact angles depending on how far you want to bend it up. If you do 45 degrees, then you can bend it so you can get different angles on a larger piece. Essentially it was miniature silversmithing. So, that was interesting.
Sharon: Was that your choice?
Machi: Yes, that was my choice. The other thing I did was learn how to use a hydraulic press and make steel dies to press forms, which was a totally different thing for me. That was really fascinating, to learn how to make tools myself.
Sharon: I would have been afraid of smashing my fingers or something.
Machi: Funny you should say that. I did smash my finger and I ended up in the hospital, but luckily it wasn’t too bad. I did not do any lasting damage, but yes, it’s definitely possible to hurt your hands. I wouldn’t recommend it because it really was not good. I had my finger in a bandage for three weeks. I could have never finished this degree without Janet because she had to be my right hand for a couple of weeks. So, I feel like we both earned this.
Sharon: Did you tell her what to do step by step or did she know what to do?
Machi: She’s very experienced, and she helped me with the hydraulic press because I couldn’t pull the lever anymore because I had this huge bandage on. So, she was helping me, and she had to saw for me. She knew what to do, but it was definitely a team effort.
Sharon: Did you learn something about safety in doing that?
Machi: Yes, because I hadn’t worked that much with steel. When you put steel on a lathe, which is what I was doing, the edges can become ludicrously sharp, like sharper than the sharpest knife. I didn’t realize that, and now I will never forget it.
Sharon: So, steel is harder to work with than if you’re working with silver.
Machi: Yes.
Sharon: You can cut yourself. Can you do this on your own at home? You say you have a kitchen table or—
Machi: Not working on steel, no. Silver is much softer. You’re not going to hurt yourself like that; I mean, thankfully not. I was working with some really big equipment at the college, which you normally would never have any access to. Just working with silver, what we’re doing in the book with jewelry, it would take some doing to hurt yourself. We’ve highlighted all the safety issues at the beginning of the book and also per project. So, you should be totally safe.
Sharon: Aren’t there any issues with fumes or anything like that?
Machi: Not for the projects we have in the book. I’m trying to think if there’s anything. No, nothing specific that we have in the book. We use Platinol, which is an oxidizing solution which is not dangerous, but it smells terrible. We advise ventilation because it smells like rotting eggs, but if you smell it, it’s not going to be dangerous for you in any way. I wouldn’t inhale it on purpose because it smells terrible, but it’s all right with some basic ventilation.
Sharon: What is it called?
Machi: It’s called Platinol. That’s a particular brand name, but it’s basically a sulfur solution. It’s also sold as liver of sulfur. That one is slightly different because you can get different gradations of oxidation with liver sulfur. Platinol, the brand, just gives you that dark gray color that you get with antique-looking jewelry.
Sharon: Can you transfer these skills to other metals?
Machi: Yeah, definitely. It’s most transferrable to brass, copper and gold because those behave in a similar way, but each one has their own special thing that is different. Gold obviously has different karats. So, when you’re working with silver—and we explain in the book that there are different solders. So, when you move to gold, then you would use gold solders, but with gold solders, you need to match the karat so the color matches. If you’re working with 18 karat, you would use 18-karat solder, whereas with silver, you’re just going to use silver solder because there are no carats.
Sharon: What attracted you to jewelry, to any kind, initially?
Machi: I have always liked jewelry making. Even when I was really small, I used to make beaded jewelry. I would pick up little things like a little chain and put paper on it, anything to make jewelry. I always found it really fascinating. It’s an art form, and it’s like miniature sculpture. It’s wearable sculpture.
Sharon: Would you say that Janet has the same idea? When you were younger, did you like to work with your hands?
Machi: Yes, my whole family is very artistic. My mom is a painter, and my sister works with quilting and knitting. My grandmother got awards for her—I’m trying to think of the English word where you arrange flowers. I forgot what that’s called. But anyway, she got awards for her bouquet making. She also did cross stitch and knitting and tapestry making. My whole family is very artistic, and Janet has been interested in art.
Sharon: Is it necessary to have that kind of interest?
Machi: No, not at all. I see it with my art students. Janet and I over the years have had a lot of students. Some people who come in get into it immediately, and some people have no interest or no background in art in particular. They come in a little bit nervous, like, “I don’t have any real artistic skill. Do I need that?” But it’s not about sitting there and drawing something. It’s about working with the metal and then seeing where it goes for you. The first projects you do are about learning the skills. You don’t have to already have an idea or anything. I find that all my students, after a while, think, “Oh yeah, I made this, so now I can make two of those. Oh, what if I combine them?” Then they can start combining things and it just goes from there. So, there’s no need to have any kind of previous experience in any other art.
Sharon: Do you ever combine gems with your silver? Not real gems, but any kind of gem?
Machi: Oh, yeah. Janet actually uses more gemstones than I do. She uses quite a bit of—let me think of what she generally uses. Topaz and aquamarine and diamonds and all kinds of things. I don’t use that many in my own work, but I do a lot with my teaching, and Janet does as well. We do all kinds of different stone setting.
In the book, there is puzzle-set cabochon stone. A cabochon stone has a flat bottom and then it has a rounded, buffed top. That’s generally where you start with stone setting. You start with that type of stone because it’s the easiest one to set. Then you move on to shapes like ovals and marquise, which is the one that’s got a pointy top and a pointy bottom and then curves on either side. They’re very pretty. Then you can move on to faceted. All the different stones have different stone settings.
Sharon: Did you start with a cabochon and then move on?
Machi: Oh, yes, absolutely. So did Janet, although she started a long time ago.
Sharon: Let me see. What other questions did I want to ask you. What continues to attract you to silver?
Machi: We were talking about this on Sunday when we got together, and both of us said there’s something about silver. It’s so beautiful. The color is amazing. It’s this white shininess. The shine, of course, is very well-known, and the material itself is very ductile and malleable. So, if you give a hundred people a piece of silver and say, “Make something,” you will get a hundred different things. Once you know how to use it, it becomes like a friend. It just does what you want it to do, and it moves in ways that you want it to move. There’s so much you can do with it, so many different ways. I would say there are endless possibilities with it. It’s just a beautiful metal while remaining relatively affordable compared to gold.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.s
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Nicola Heidemann
Nicola Heidemann is a German art jeweler who seeks, through her work, to express her closeness to nature. Heidemann is interested in the ways the shapes and colors of the natural environment inform our sense of beauty, and she considers herself to be a collector—of allusions, impressions, associations.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Like nature itself, Nicola Heidemann’s jewelry can never be completely controlled. Using heat coloring techniques to create jewelry that evokes the beauty of the natural world, Nicola allows the material to tell her when the piece is finished. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the materials she uses the most; why the ability to touch and carry her jewelry is central to her work; and why she hopes her jewelry bonds the wearer to nature. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Nicola Heidemann. She’s based in Germany, in Stuttgart, and she founded Nicola Heidemann Jewelry. Welcome back.
I have the earrings and I have the bracelet. It’s a bunch of connections. Do you think about that? Did you sketch out the earrings before you started, or do you sketch out a necklace?
Nicola: Yes, I do. Also, I have a leitmotif to have a memory of how I did it. Most of the time, I also sketch the shapes of the pebbles. For example, the bracelet you have, the pebbles have to match together. I sketch this connection of the pebbles and the shapes of the pebbles so that they are fitting together.
Sharon: Is that how it forms a bond? You say that jewelry forms a bond with nature. How does it form a bond, and what kind of bond does it form?
Nicola: Mainly through my memory or my soul. I feel quite connected with nature. I’m a gardener. A lot of time I spend in my garden and outside in the woods. It’s like a sense or a feeling. It’s my feeling with my bonds to nature. I hope to trigger this. When a person is seeing my jewelry, I hope it’s functioning. I don’t know.
Sharon: Do you think it’s important that somebody understands that before they buy a piece of jewelry? Some artists think it’s important that somebody knows the philosophy. Some do. Some don’t. Do you think it’s important that people know the philosophy behind your jewelry?
Nicola: For me, no, it’s not important. First of all, it’s important that the people have a feeling and they fall in love and they have their own ideas with a piece. Maybe later they can read about my philosophy, but on the first side, I hope the piece is triggering these feelings. So, for me, philosophy is later.
Sharon: I’m curious. How do you sell? Do you sell mostly at popups like Schmuck? Do you sell to galleries, or do you ramp up because Christmas is coming? How do you work?
Nicola: I sell exclusively with galleries. For me, that’s the best way because they know the audience; they know my work. I have wonderful gallerists and gallery owners who are supporting me and I am in connection with them. I always have discussions with them. It’s really supportive. I love this gallery system because I can work at my studio. I send them my pieces and they say, “O.K., people love it,” or sometimes, “Please make it a bit shorter.” I love that.
Sharon: Do they ask you for changes sometimes? Like you said, they want it shorter. Do they say to you, “We need more bracelets,” or “We need a ring,” or “we need necklaces”?
Nicola: Yes, sometimes. One of my really important gallery owners is Gallerie Slavik in Vienna. She’s really supportive, and she makes amazing work at her gallery. For me, the information I get from her about how my pieces are—
Sharon: How they’re seen? If I see them in a case, first of all, they’re distinctive. I know it’s your piece. If I see it, I know automatically who made it. Do you think other people see that?
Nicola: I think yes. I think I’m quite known in the field for now.
Sharon: Known in the field throughout Europe? I don’t see your jewelry in the States. I wonder, are you known here? Are you known in Eastern Europe? Where are you known?
Nicola: In Europe. I used to work with the States, but for the moment, it’s so complicated. I leave it up to the gallery owners to send the pieces. It’s a part of the work I don’t like, this paperwork and customs. I’m really grateful that gallery owners do that for me.
Sharon: Did you always like jewelry or small things? You said you like small things. Did you always like jewelry?
Nicola: Yes. I started quite early with some wire and, as I told you, some wooden pieces or pebbles. I started to learn it in my own studio. I think that was 38 years ago. Yes, I started with my own studio.
Sharon: Wow, that’s a long time!
Nicola: Yeah, and I was really researching and experimenting. I wasn’t a trained jeweler. I was taught by myself.
Sharon: Did you work with other metals besides titanium and copper? Did you experiment with other metals and come back to the titanium?
Nicola: I started with copper and brass and silver. The titanium I think I found maybe 10 years ago; I’m not sure.
Sharon: What did you like about it? It seems like you made a lot.
Nicola: In former times, I used to put color into my jewelry with gemstones. I really love color, and this was a possibility to put silver jewelry with some of my gemstones, but it was too small for me. I wanted to have bigger fields of color. When I explored the titanium, I fell in love with the color possibilities. On the other side, it’s really weightless. You can make really big, bold jewelry pieces, but they are very comfortable to wear because they are so light.
Sharon: Yes, they are.
Nicola: It’s two qualities. It’s really light and it’s this colorful quality.
Sharon: When you’re gardening, what do you find? Does that give you ideas? You mentioned flowers. What do you like to garden?
Nicola: I did learn in my garden as well. I can put some flowers in, but nature will decide if they can stay there, and nature sends me different flowers. Some people call them weeds, but for me, it’s wildflowers. My garden is full of wildflowers and vegetables. It’s a bit of a chaotic mixture, but it’s like in nature. The colors are beautiful. I’m always surprised about how my garden is developing similar to my jewelry. I’m surprised.
Sharon: It seems like it is similar to jewelry in that you wait for the garden to come up. You don’t start and think, “It has to be this way.” That’s interesting.
Are you starting to make a lot of new pieces? Is there a demand for new pieces at Schmuck and for Christmas? Are you busier now than other times of the year?
Nicola: Now, I’m not. For me, Christmas is not so important. The galleries are selling all year, so Christmas is not so important. Sometimes I prepare an exhibition when I try to make a bigger collection, but normally I work as I like and as I feel.
Sharon: Do the gallery owners, the gallerists, ever call you up and say, “It’s been a long time since we’ve seen anything from you”? Do they bug you? Do they notice if you haven’t sent something?
Nicola: I’ve been in good contact with all my gallery owners. That’s maybe a reason why I like to have gallery owners in Europe. I visit them. I really love to visit my gallery owners. I go to Amsterdam or Vienna or Ravensburg. For me, the contact is really important.
Sharon: Do you they know you’re coming or do you walk in?
Nicola: No, they know. We have an appointment.
Sharon: What do you want people to remember when they wear your jewelry? What kind of feeling do you want them to have?
Nicola: I want them to remember that our planet is beautiful. We are part of nature and we can be very, very lucky to spend some time here and to enjoy nature’s beauty.
Sharon: Do you think it’s important that somebody recognizes that?
Nicola: Yes, definitely. Facing all of our problems with climate change and extinction of fauna and flora, yes, I think it’s really important to remember that nature is our home and we are a part of it. Definitely.
Sharon: Sometimes I wonder when it is art jewelry. There’s a meaning there, but I tend to like the jewelry. Maybe the meaning is important, but I once heard somebody say they wouldn’t buy unless they met the artist. I didn’t understand that, really. Besides the heat treating of the metal, have you tried other techniques?
Nicola: For coloring, sometimes I use pigments and powder coating and some lacquers to get different colors, like a grass green or red. Other techniques, I forge. Some years ago, I was weaving titanium like basket weaving. That was a different technique. It was also blue-colored titanium wires. I was weaving some pieces like baskets.
Sharon: Wow! You mentioned that you use a different technique to get green like grass, but a lot of your titanium pieces seem to have that without anything else.
Nicola: There is a green appearing on titanium with heat, but it’s a bit more bluish. When I want to have a green more yellowish, I add some transparent paint so I can also see the metal surface. It’s not completely covered. The heat coloring is shining through the transparent layer of, in that case, a yellowish green.
Sharon: How often would you say you do this, and how many pieces? Is that an exception, that you paint, or is it something you do often with different techniques? The things I have seen have been titanium. They’re blue or green.
Nicola: It’s just an addition, I think. Sometimes I want to have this yellowish green, and I try to reach this, but most of my colors are only heat colors.
Sharon: You’ve been doing this for 38 years. How did you come to this? You kept experimenting and found different techniques?
Nicola: Yes, experimenting and making mistakes. I think I made a lot of mistakes and failures through the years. Maybe that’s also the reason why my technique is so personal and so special.
Sharon: Do you ever want to revisit some of the other techniques you might have used earlier? Maybe you made a mistake, but you want to change the mistakes and do it again so it’s O.K.
Nicola: I think all of my works are spoken in the same language, but 38 years ago, I wasn’t able to make it really good or advanced. Now I can do things better and be more focused on my ideas, but the path is really important. Like a child is starting to go, it’s important to learn every step. You don’t go back, but it’s always a part of you.
Sharon: That’s interesting. You don’t go back. I have to think about whether that’s true or not. Don’t you think you try things over? Do you say, “I did it this way before. That didn’t work and I want to do it this way. Maybe it will be work”?
Nicola: Sometimes I make an experiment. This piece is in my drawers for years, and then I take it out and say, “Oh, now, I have a solution.” Years later, I know how to deal with it and how to combine it into a piece of jewelry.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. Do you have a drawer full of things like that?
Nicola: Yes, many drawers full of things, full of unfinished pieces.
Sharon: Most of the things you’ve described, and the things you say you like, are small. Have you ever done large pieces, sculpture, public art or anything like that?
Nicola: Actually, I tried to do it once, but I realized that’s not my scale. I really like the small things, the things you can put in one or two hands or hang around your neck. It’s not my scale to make sculptures.
Sharon: How did you find out that it wasn’t your scale? You just felt you couldn’t carry it?
Nicola: I wasn’t content with the outcome of this big piece. It’s not my language.
Sharon: If it had been smaller, would you have been more content? Would you have been content if it had been the same thing but smaller?
Nicola: Yeah, probably, because it was also my language, but it was a big sculpture. It’s not me. I don’t know how to describe it differently.
Sharon: Was it outside for a gallery, for your garden? Where did you put it?
Nicola: I think it ended up in my garden and I forgot it. Probably now, it’s underneath a layer of moss or grass; I don’t know.
Sharon: There is a sculpture near here, a large one that people pass all the time. Unless you know it’s there, you don’t stop. Sometimes people are startled because they happen to notice it. I think I understand a little bit what you’re saying. If the sculpture had been on a chain you could put around your neck, a small thing, would you have liked it more?
Nicola: Yeah, of course.
Sharon: What do you like making most?
Nicola: You mean what kind of jewelry?
Sharon: Yeah, what kind of jewelry.
Nicola: A difficult question. I think I love everything. I love necklaces, long necklaces, bracelets. I love playing with rings. For me, earrings are not for the wearer, but for the person who is seeing the wearer because you don’t see your earrings by yourself. But I think I love everything.
Sharon: And when you make it, you don’t have a preference? If somebody gave you gems, would you incorporate them if somebody gave you a handful of gems and said, “I want these in a necklace,” or “I want these in a bracelet”?
Nicola: I don’t know. I have a lot of drawers with gems. For the moment, I don’t think I want to work with gems. Probably I would hide them inside a piece. But yeah, for the moment, I don’t want to work with gems. It’s too much. I have my colorful jewelry, and I think it would be too much to add colorful gems to my colors.
Sharon: I’m noticing the necklace you have on because it’s a pretty blue. Did you make that? That’s a very bright blue.
Nicola: Yes, I made that recently. The inside is polished and the outside is rough. Also, it’s this contrast between the different faces. It’s just inside that’s shimmering.
Sharon: Is that for the wearer, that it’s shimmering, or for the person who’s looking at you? I’m looking at you, for instance, and it’s rough. Did you do that intentionally because you wanted to remember the roughness?
Nicola: Yeah, the outside is rough. If you touch it with your finger, you can feel this rough surface. I like that haptic sensation, that surface feel.
Sharon: And the shiny side, is that also rough?
Nicola: No, the shiny side is polished. It’s quite smooth, and it’s inside.
Sharon: Oh, I see. It’s a good example of what you make of your philosophy. Thank you for being with us today. We really appreciate it. It’s good to learn a lot more about you and what you do.
Nicola: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me, and thank you for your passion and your curiosity for our field. I really appreciate that. Thank you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Nicola Heidemann
Nicola Heidemann is a German art jeweler who seeks, through her work, to express her closeness to nature. Heidemann is interested in the ways the shapes and colors of the natural environment inform our sense of beauty, and she considers herself to be a collector—of allusions, impressions, associations.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Like nature itself, Nicola Heidemann’s jewelry can never be completely controlled. Using heat coloring techniques to create jewelry that evokes the beauty of the natural world, Nicola allows the material to tell her when the piece is finished. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the materials she uses the most; why the ability to touch and carry her jewelry is central to her work; and why she hopes her jewelry bonds the wearer to nature. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Nicola Heidemann. She’s based in Germany, in Stuttgart, and she founded Nicola Heidemann Jewelry. I had first seen her at Schmuck before Covid. Schmuck, for those of you who don’t know, is the annual—I call it a trade show. Everybody knows it. I ask if you’re going to Munich or you’re going to Schmuck, and it’s the same thing. She was at a table at a popup that was all over the city, but there were a couple of people who had stopped to look at her jewelry. I would have missed her totally, but it was this small group that made me curious. I stopped to look, and I was really taken by the blues and greens in her work and the shapes she uses in crafting her jewelry. It’s also very deceptive. If you were to put it down on grass or on stones at the beach, it would be hard to tell her jewelry apart. It also looks heavy and it’s very, very light.
Today, she’ll tell us about her philosophy when it comes to both jewelry and metal and also nature, which plays a very important part in what she does. Welcome to the podcast, Nicola.
Nicola: Thank you, Sharon. Thank you for inviting me. Hi.
Sharon: Hi. You have a lot of inspiration from nature. Do you see colors in everything, other colors? You have so much that’s blue and green. You get inspiration from nature, but is it from all nature, or only the sky or the ocean, which is blue, and grass?
Nicola: Nature for me is indeed the most important inspiration. I think our sense of beauty is informed by nature, by the shapes you find in nature, by the colors, the color combinations. That’s my idea, to work in color combinations which you could find in nature as well. In nature, you don’t have monochromatic colors or colors which are not matching to each other. This is my inspiration indeed.
Sharon: I saw some red, for instance. It’s unusual for you. I saw a piece that had red in it. The inspiration for the red, and you have on a purple dress, do those come from nature or do they come from other places?
Nicola: Yes, of course. Reds you can find in flowers or in volcanic soils. Red is quite a common color in nature, but the reason why you don’t see red in so many pieces of mine is that my main material I use is titanium. Titanium has a big range of plain color possibilities which don’t include red, so I can make it blue and green and turquoise and yellowish, but red, I can’t reach. So, for the red pieces, I must use different techniques to get it.
Sharon: I’m going to jump around because you said that titanium has a lot of different colors and that it gives you a lot of different ideas, new ideas. Do you write those down because there are so many of them?
Nicola: I don’t write down. I draw a lot, but quite often the material is driving me through the process because there are some parts of my work which I can’t control, and that’s the heat coloring. I know it’s quite good what I do, but there are some uncontrollable effects. Sometimes the material tells me, “O.K., that’s the right color. Stop now.”
Sharon: If you’re doing a piece and you see a color—let’s say a gold that you didn’t intend the piece to be—do you file that away mentally or in your drawings and think, “I’m going to try that next time or another time”? Do you think about it?
Nicola: Yes, sometimes I stop immediately and say, “O.K., this piece has to be gold now because it’s such a beautiful gold.” I will stop because, when you stop the process of heating, the color remains. When I see it’s so beautiful, I decide, “O.K., this piece has to be gold now.” I leave the decision sometimes to the material or to the—I don’t know the word—for the moment.
Sharon: Do you go from a blue color to a green color to a gold color? I don’t know how the process works. As you’re heating, do you see blues and then greens and then golds?
Nicola: There’s a shade of colors, a color palette. It starts with gold from a magenta. Then it’s a lilac or violet, then it’s blue, then it’s turquoise, then it’s yellowish and then the process again starts to go to pink, magenta, and then the green appears. It’s a long task, and it depends on the temperature of the piece you’re heating.
Sharon: You had mentioned the term shibuichi. I don’t know how to say it.
Nicola: Shibuichi is a Japanese alloy which is one part of the Mokume Gane technique. It’s the dark alloy of this Mokume Gane. Shibuichi is an alloy with a lot of copper, and it’s also possible to heat color it. It has a warm red when you heat color it.
Sharon: So, it’s a metal?
Nicola: Yeah, it’s a metal alloy. It’s 70% copper and 30% silver.
Sharon: Is it something that you go to your supplier and say, “I want to make this and I need some,” or do you make it?
Nicola: No, I order my metals from my supplier. I order titanium and copper and silver as wire and sheets.
Sharon: How often do you start new pieces?
Nicola: Pretty often. Sometimes a piece takes years because I’m not content, and I think, “No, it’s not going to be good.” Sometimes I leave a piece for years, and then I see it again and put it out and say, “Now I have the idea. Now I can finish it.” I have a lot of pieces parallel which are not finished yet but in the making.
Sharon: Some of your pieces have dimension. Your pebble pieces seem to be folded over. What made you decide to add dimension?
Nicola: It’s like in nature. On a pebble beach you have really beautiful, different shapes, and a volume is needed, I think, to tell the story I want to tell. Sometimes I want to touch a piece. I want to have it in my hand and hold it, and the volume is filling up my hand.
I don’t know if I’m describing it right. For me, it’s all about understanding nature. There are different terms for the word understanding in German. One is verstehen. It’s like in English, understanding, but the other is begreifen, which literally means to touch it with your hand. A very important point in understanding nature is to touch it, to have this haptic experience.
Sharon: Do you live near the beach? Do you see pebbles just when you go outside?
Nicola: I live near a river beach. I often stroll around and collect pebbles. I did it when I was a child. I think that’s also a reason why I love to make jewelry. It’s something small you could put in your pocket and take with you. It’s a beautiful pebble or a shell or a piece of wood, and for me, it’s like jewelry. It’s the same. It’s a beautiful piece you can take with you. You are allowed to touch it with your hands. You can take it with you everywhere you go.
Sharon: Is some of your jewelry like that? Do you intend to make a piece of jewelry that somebody sticks in their pocket and knows is there?
Nicola: Sometimes, yes. They are allowed to do anything with a piece. Of course, it’s also possible to wear it, but for me, this haptic sensation is so important and this idea to take it with you.
Sharon: To take the jewelry with you.
Nicola: Yes.
Sharon: Do you feel it? Let’s say you’re feeling stressed or talking to somebody and trying to explain something. If you feel the piece in your pocket, you feel more confident. That’s what I’m looking for, confidence. Do you feel that?
Nicola: Yes, but most of the time, I touch the pieces. A ring, for example, I always play with a ring on my fingers, or I play with a chain around my neck. It’s like a talisman, the piece, to be more relaxed or comfortable. The quality of the surface is often—some pieces are rough; some pieces are polished. I like the sensation the pieces cause on my fingertips when I touch them. So, yes.
Sharon: Is that why some of your jewelry is smooth and some of it’s a little rougher? Is it to imitate nature, to imitate what you see?
Nicola: Yeah, maybe not to imitate, but to give a hint or to give a memory, to let people remember that we are part of nature. I think that’s my story, to give a person the synch. We are part of nature and beauty is nature.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Did you have that mindset when you started making jewelry or did you come to that?
Nicola: When I was a child, I collected small pieces. I built miniature landscapes in the garden, and when I painted, I painted miniature pictures of landscapes or trees. It always was a connection to nature. This is my background.
The idea to make jewelry was just to take these beautiful pieces with me. I wanted to keep them with me and to have them always with me. I’m not a trained goldsmith, so when I start a piece, sometimes I don’t think about what it is. It’s not going to be a necklace or a bracelet. First of all, it’s an idea of a shape, a color, a face. Then later the idea is, “O.K., I want to make a necklace with this or a bracelet.”
Sharon: You don’t start out where you have gold and you think, “I’m going to make a chain with it.” You shape it and it starts to take a form.
Nicola: It’s the other way around. Jewelers normally have some gold; they make a chain and that’s it. For me, first of all, the idea is important. Then comes the function and the wearability.
Sharon: I’m asking you because you have your pebble collection or your series of pebble jewelry, which is very interesting. Do you see pebbles and think, “I want to make a piece just like that”? How do you think about it?
Nicola: I think it’s more a love affair. I love pebbles. I love the different shapes and faces. Also on a pebble beach, there’s this collection of so many different pebbles. All of these come from different regions, and nevertheless they are matching or they are beautiful in this collection on a certain beach. For me, it’s a desire, a desire for nature’s beauty.
Sharon: It’s interesting because you show some of your pieces lying on the pebbles, and it’s hard to tell what’s your work and what’s nature’s work. Is that what you were after, to have it blend in?
Nicola: I am content because I think my jewelry is almost as beautiful as nature is. Then I’m happy.
Sharon: Is that what you mean by saying that the heat colors are harmonious? I didn’t understand what you meant by harmonious.
Nicola: Yeah, that’s true. When you fire this metal—and it doesn’t matter which metal. The heat colors of copper and the heat colors of titanium are matching or harmonious with each other. It’s a harmonious match. It’s like in nature. You don’t have any color combinations in nature.
Sharon: Are you saying that sometimes you work with copper and sometimes it’s titanium, and you get a gold color and they’re similar to each other? Is that what you’re saying?
Nicola: Yes, similar or matching in a way. They are not fighting each other. They are harmonious.
Sharon: Can you give us an example where you found something very harmonious that you didn’t think would be harmonious when you started out?
Nicola: I made a series of earrings. I started with silver, and I sprinkled some copper inside and I heat colored it. It’s a white ground with sprinkles of heat-colored copper. The top of this earring is a polished titanium, also heat colored. The colors are different, but in a way harmonious. It’s three different metals, but they are playing a wonderful game together.
Sharon: Did you heat the silver first alone and then you sprinkled it?
Nicola: Yeah.
Sharon: You did. And then you played with it to see—
Nicola: Yeah, I played with it. All the silver or the metals are playing with me.
Sharon: You also said that the incomplete fascinates you. What did you mean by that?
Nicola: Sometimes you tell a story, and I probably tell stories with my jewelry as well, but it’s not always visible. Sometimes I have a pebble with holes, and inside you can see a sparkle, but it’s not describing or explaining on the first side what it is. Sometimes people say, “Oh, what’s inside? What is it?” and I cannot explain what it is.
For me, secrets are really important. Secrets mean that you are curious; you want to explore something, but a piece of the secret always remains. It’s not perfectly explained, but it makes us curious.
Sharon: Are there pieces you make with a secret that only you know or only the wearer knows?
Nicola: Maybe that. It’s triggering questions. Maybe they find an answer or not, but it’s a hint, and a hint always triggers you to think about it and to communicate. Sometimes my jewelry is causing communications because the people ask, “What is it, and why is it so shimmering inside? Why does it sound so interesting?” It starts a communication, and that’s an effect I really love.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. There’s not a lot of jewelry that facilitates communication. Why do you think of yourself as a creator and not a collector?
Nicola: Or the other way around.
Sharon: You think of yourself as a collector. I pose the question: why do you think of yourself as a collector and not a creator?
Nicola: Because there’s always a part which I can’t control. I collect some ideas. I collect pieces and I put it together, but I’m not able to control every step of the work. That’s why I say I’m a collector. Sometimes I put some ideas together, some techniques, and then something is growing and I’m not responsible for every part of it. Maybe that’s the answer.
Sharon: It seems like you have a lot of ideas. I wonder how you keep track of them. If you wake up one morning and you can’t think of anything to do, do you go back into your mental file drawer and think, “Well, I wanted to try this”? How do you work?
Nicola: Yeah, it’s working quite easily. Sometimes I make drawings of my ideas, but most of the time, I really live with it. I go to bed with it and in the morning, I think about it. It’s a bit like a permanent meditation. I am lucky enough to spend all my time with that. So, it’s quite easy for me.
Sharon: When you sketch, what are you sketching? Are you sketching colors or pieces?
Nicola: I used to sketch more often and with colors, but for now, I sketch only with a pencil. Sometimes I draw some connections, sometimes technical things, how I can connect some pieces.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Joe Vilaiwan (Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong)
Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry is the work of creative artist and designer Joe Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong, a second-generation jeweler. In his native Thailand, Joe grew up in his family’s diamond jewelry business and developed an instinct for identifying quality stones and metals. A natural-born artist, Joe began designing jewelry at age 14, when he created avant grade diamond rings that hinted at his future career.
As an independent visual concept designer for major retailers in the United States and Asia, he quickly became known for his bold, eye-catching store window installations. In 2005 in Los Angeles, Joe returned to his roots and launched Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, which caught the attention of store buyers who recognized his unique blend of art and ornamentation. His meticulously hand-crafted, statement necklaces, cuffs and earrings became top sellers in museum stores and exclusive boutiques as stylish women in international fashion capitals began wearing and collecting his glamorous wearable arts.
A favorite among fashion editors, stylists and celebrities, Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry has been featured in magazines, on runways and in film. Joe recently collaborated with Disney Consumer Products to create the couture jewelry collection for the major motion picture, “Oz the Great and Powerful.”
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Although Joe Vilaiwan is known for creating large, over-the-top jewelry, he insists that anyone can wear his work—and almost everyone has, from Joan Rivers to Iris Apfel. As the founder of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, he has made it his mission to find the perfect piece for every client who connects with his work. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he gets inspired; how he sources the unique materials he uses in his jewelry; and how he has gotten A-list press for his brand without a large budget. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, Joe will tell us how he started his business and who his clients are. Also, we’ll hear how he comes up with his ideas. Welcome back.
Do you find that your jewelry sells better in a certain part of the country?
Joe: If I find my right clients, I believe that in every part of the country or a certain part of the world, I think every part of the world, they will have a group or niche who are beautiful inside and out, who are intelligent, who have great taste, a good sense of design. They’re very niche, but if I find them, they’ll always be my clients. It could happen any time. I have rare clients. There are clients in Palm Springs, in New York, in Europe, in Paris, in Asia. I don’t think there’s any particular area, but if I find the right group, obviously everywhere in the world they will be my clients.
Sharon: Your company name is Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry. To me, it’s wonderful jewelry, but it’s also fashion jewelry. Have you considered changing the name?
Joe: No, not at all, and I intentionally called it that. Actually, we also have a fine jewelry collection. You must see it. I do not bring it to the Beverly Hills Art Show because it’s a little dangerous because it’s outdoors. But we’ve had a fine jewelry collection for the last six or seven years already, and it’s actually been doing very well. We use diamonds, real gemstones, because I have my family backing me up on that in the factory and with sources. My parents bought them in cash and it was a kit, so we have a great source of stones.
However, even when I started with custom jewelry, I still want to call it fine jewelry. For me, fine doesn’t have to be diamonds. It’s just personal taste, but fine for me means fine craftsmanship, fine material, fine production. You find out about the inspiration and the way I design them. Everything is for fine people. That’s what the meaning of fine jewelry is for me. That’s why it’s become fine jewelry for everyone. Even though it is crystals and shells, the way it’s made is not different from the production we use with emeralds or blue sapphire or anything. The craftsmanship is always the best. I think I might be the only company in the world that has a lifetime guarantee. If something happens in the next five or six years when you wear it and you break it, we fix it for you.
Sharon: That’s good to know. Is most of your jewelry made here in the States? Where is it made?
Joe: Everything is made in the States. However, I do have a lot of suppliers all over the world in terms of the craftsmanship or some stones. Some type of the necklace might be made in Thailand, might be made in Italy, because in its culture, they might be very, very good in some particular process. Makers in Thailand are very good at finding all those gemstones, the collections for the fine jewelry. In Italy, they are really good with the way they work with metal. So, I have a supplier who has expertise in different techniques, but everything is completed and finished in the U.S.A.
Sharon: Let’s say they’re good at something in Italy. At the same time, do you go around to different stores and show them their things and hope they’ll buy something?
Joe: No, usually I view them as the artisan in his country. I just use them as my suppliers. There are some companies where I don’t even know what the finished product will be. Let’s say it’s the pearls you got, right? Those are actually made from seashells. They blend them and then put them together as a big, look-alike, gigantic pearl. My source for that pearl is South Korea; however, they don’t know what I’m going to do with the pearl. I’m the one who puts together the necklace and everything. Therefore, they will not know what the finished product would be, and I don’t need to go to South Korea and see who is also using it.
Just by myself with my private clients, I almost don’t have enough jewelry to sell to them. Mostly we used to do trade shows, and most of the clients who went to my trade show were museums. We’re in museums in London and San Francisco. We are in over 34 art museums all over the world that carry my line, and they’ve been selling very well. The Metropolitan Opera sells very well with my jewelry. Those are the people and the buyers who will meet me two times a year at the trade shows.
I’m very picky about who’s going to carry my line. I’m very picky about my clients as well. I’d rather have a good amount of clients, but they’re quality clients. Then we can create a friendship, a relationship. Life is too short, and I like to work in that way so I can be happy and enjoy their company and they can enjoy my company. We can actually have interaction towards my art, and I think that will make everything fun and loveable.
Sharon: If I go to one of the museums in London, and I want to buy a necklace but there isn’t one there, is that it?
Joe: That’s it, yeah. You will be the only one who has it. That’s why having my clothes in your closet, you see they have my signature on it. People really collect them. In the past, we had some collections that have art pieces for design, but the maximum is the other pieces. Some pieces have eight to 10, but that’s it. That’s the maximum. This way, everything is one of a kind. There’s only one of these necklaces in the world, and you will be the only person who has it. I love it that way.
Sharon: I like to know that, but I’m surprised to hear that. Do you have certain craftspeople who work for you?
Joe: Yes, I do have a good team of people who work for me, and I help them as they are single mothers. I give them projects so they can work at home. We meet and I teach them how to do it, and then they can just submit their work that we are planning to do. My things are not mass-produced; they are not machine-made.
That’s why I say it’s important that these pieces carry the energy of me, who designed them or made them, and the craftsmanship of the people. This is not talking about the stone itself. That also has its own particular energy. It’s the cosmic, pure energy to be a great piece of art. We can actually feel that. People can sense that energy. That’s why it’s important to give the right piece to the right person because then the magic happens. It’s going to make you feel completely different. It’s like you find the best version of yourself. I do believe everyone deserves that throughout every life.
Sharon: That’s good to hear. I’ll think about that when I wear it. I haven’t worn it yet. You said you named the company after inspiration from your mother, or you attribute it to your mother. Where do you get your other inspiration from?
Joe: I have inspiration all over. I don’t have a program of design. My challenge is to start designing. I get inspired so easily. I could see the dirt on the floor and think about the textures, and I have to write it down or schedule it so quickly. One of your questions is do I find the stone first and then design it, or do I design it first and then find the stone? It happens both ways. Sometimes I find a stone that is very interesting and see the picture of the design in my head right away. Sometimes I have the design in my head, and then I find some stone that will suit that design.
For me, inspiration comes from everything. I think you can use this with every perspective of your life if you persevere. You can get inspired from everything around you. You can look at the sky; you can look at nature; you can look at what people wear. I’ve gotten inspired many, many times with the way the homeless dress in L.A. We have the homeless, and sometimes they dress very funky, very inspiring, and I get inspired from that. You can go to museums or look at things around you. If you are creative and you can actually manage that in your head, you can get inspired very easily.
I get inspired getting things I haven’t made yet. Actually, I have to screen that and think about how I’m going to put it into the collection. What would suit what clients if this piece is coming out? Who is the client I would think of? That’s how I use my knowledge of advertising, to screen those designs and see what the best time to launch that collection is, who the best people to show this to are. But prior to getting inspired, it’s so easy for me. It’s not a big thing at all.
Sharon: How do you turn it off? Are you going to bed at night?
Joe: Yeah, that’s very challenging. That’s what my problem is. My friend was helping me try to find something that pulls my attention. I really can’t turn it off because I enjoy it so much. For me, it’s like playing. Sometimes I really need to get away and watch something completely different or go work out or travel so I can turn it off. If not, I would always get excited, like, “Think about this. It’s going to be so cool.” For me to keep it balanced at this point, my age is very important.
Sharon: Have you thought about or have you had men ask you to design something?
Joe: Yeah, I have a lot of new clients that come in both sexes. A lot of them are gentlemen who are very busy, and they know their wives would love my jewelry. I have a big group of those clients. I always choose the gift for their wives for their anniversary. I have a group of gentlemen who also like big and bold jewelry. Once in a while, I do make some men’s jewelry as well. I have clients who love buying men’s cuffs and men’s rings from me. I do have those kinds that buy for themselves as well. So, it’s two groups of gentlemen buying. They are very fun, and so far, I have never failed them in choosing the right piece for their wives or their girlfriends. They’re all very good about this.
Sharon: Do they call you or your assistant and say, “It’s my wife’s birthday”?
Joe: Yes. They call me directly or they call my assistant, or they will make an appointment. For my clients, I only take private appointments. If I’m in town in L.A. or even in New York, people will come to New York and everyone will make an appointment. I have a client who is the first person to make an appointment when I go to New York. She wanted to be the first person to pick everything. I usually have a private appointment for those clients, for some family close to their anniversary or their birthday or a special occasion. They come to an assistant or they call me, and then we’ll make an appointment. We’ll discuss the design I already have and anything particular or special they want to have in the piece for that certain occasion, and we make it happen.
I have to say that not only do we do jewelry, but we also do a presentation for them. We wrap them. We have the flowers in the box. If their wife collects teddy bears, we have little teddy bears on the card. The gentleman just needs to sign. They appreciate it so much because my team and I prioritize not just the beauty of the creations, but also the feeling, the energy, the complement of the relationship we have with our clients as well. For me, that’s the part I enjoy the most: meeting my clients and having my clients in my life. I want to continue doing that. It’s not always the product or the jewelry itself. The experience of it is also important for us.
Sharon: Does a person ever come to you and say, “I don’t really know what I want,” and you can look at them and see something in them?
Joe: Many times, they say, “Is there something you think will be me?” Many times, I introduce new colors into their lives. I have clients who only wear black all the time, and I introduce a new way for them. I say, “You have to do this because it will make you have much more fun in your life.” I had one client who has now become one of my collectors. I said, “In three months, I’ll take it back. You can exchange it to be any black piece you want.” Now she has new colors in her life. Now, she buys red shoes. Now, she wears some lipstick. Introducing new colors in people’s lives is something I really like to do because people have to have fun. Colors are made to go. They give you so much fun, such a sensibility in your life, and you should enjoy it. It’s my honor to be able to do that and help them have more fun because colors are designed in their lives. Sometimes they just don’t know they could pull that off.
At the same time, if they find something I don’t think would suit them, I would be honest with them. I would say, “Don’t get this because I don’t think it will actually complement your skin very well. If you have it, return it.” I would be honest with them. I want to choose the piece that would help them make the neck look longer, make them look taller, complement their eye color. That is my job, to suggest those to them.
Sharon: Do you have people who bring you their designs? Do your craftspeople ever bring you their designs and say—
Joe: No.
Sharon: “I think this is a good design”? Never?
Joe: Never, because people know I want to custom make for clients. I only design what I design. I have only made what I design. So, no, I never have anyone that brings in their design and asks me to do it, because for that, they don’t need me. They can go to any jewelry production or jewelry company, and they’ll have them do the work. It’s easy. They come to me because they want my signature and my design and to wear them.
Sharon: Has anybody ever said to you, “I want this piece incorporated in what you’re making. I want this flower. I want you to put this in the necklace somehow”?
Joe: So far, for the past 16 years, I never had that before, maybe because of my brand and my personality. My work speaks very strongly of who we are. People perceive them very quickly and get very quickly that we are one of a kind; we are special; we are unique. People respect that. They know if they ask us to put something, they will usually come in to find my creation that will suit them or ask me to help them find my creation that will suit them. I think that would be the best answer to that.
Sharon: If somebody wants to get ahold of you, what’s the best way?
Joe: The best way to get ahold of me is through social media on Instagram, @VilaiwanJewelry. The website is Vilaiwan.com. People often send me messages through Instagram or email me at [email protected]. That’s the best way you can reach me. Mostly I will post my answer back myself because I like to be involved. I like to know, and I’m excited to know, who is interested in my jewelry because my jewelry is not for everyone. I’m fine with that. I like to look at it that way. If it’s not for everyone, then I want to know there is that one person who thinks they will potentially be my client. I would love to know them. So, I always respond to those messages myself.
Sharon: You mentioned, for instance, that in fall you have dark colors and the old color scheme. What if somebody says, “This spring, the colors are”—I don’t know what they are, but maybe melon and bright green. Do you have colors that go? Are you influenced by the colors that are popular?
Joe: I’m not influenced by colors so much. The people that know me know I always put together very interesting colors, very unique color schemes. I love to put very dark green with salmon pink, or I would put orange and purple together. That’s my signature, too, the combination of colors that people cannot think of, or the colors that people did not know could create a harmony that’s interesting. It doesn’t have to be a popular color. It can be any colors at any time. If I get inspired and feel like it will be interesting, I will put it together with the design I have, and it will be a fantastic piece. I don’t know how to explain it, but if you go through the pictures or see my Instagram, you will see a lot of those pieces I have posted are very unique colors. There are a lot of colors that not a lot of people would think to put together, and those mostly sell very quickly.
Sharon: I was going to ask you, is there anything left? If somebody sees something on Instagram or Facebook and they say, “Joe, I like that one and I really want to get it,” is that left?
Joe: The best is to say, “I want it definitely,” and then they’re presented right away. I will put what’s sold in the books. I will post “sold” in dollars, and many times, people say, “Well, can you make it again?” and I say, “No, we cannot make it.” A lot of times, it’s only one piece of that scale of ruby that I find. So, they are unique. That’s why we don’t even have enough pieces to supply. With only my private clients, I was still swamped with it. I appreciate that, and I’m really grateful for those clients and the support they have for me through our pieces for 15, 16 years.
Sharon: Wow! I didn’t realize it was that long.
Joe: Yes.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today and for telling us. I’m glad things are going so well.
Joe: Thank you, Sharon. Thank you so much for having me. It was great meeting you at the Beverly Hills Art Show. We’ll be there again in October, and you will see how completely different it is. Everything you saw at the Beverly Hills Art Show that day is ours. It will be completely new collections that you will see. I’m looking forward to it.
Sharon: So am I. Thank you very much.
Joe: I had so much fun talking to you and your friends. I like people that enjoy life and appreciate art. I appreciate things that are very similar. I think that’s what makes it fun, right?
Sharon: That’s right. Thank you so much.
Joe: Thank you very much.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Joe Vilaiwan (Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong)
Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry is the work of creative artist and designer Joe Polthakorn Viboonviriyawong, a second-generation jeweler. In his native Thailand, Joe grew up in his family’s diamond jewelry business and developed an instinct for identifying quality stones and metals. A natural-born artist, Joe began designing jewelry at age 14, when he created avant grade diamond rings that hinted at his future career.
As an independent visual concept designer for major retailers in the United States and Asia, he quickly became known for his bold, eye-catching store window installations. In 2005 in Los Angeles, Joe returned to his roots and launched Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, which caught the attention of store buyers who recognized his unique blend of art and ornamentation. His meticulously hand-crafted, statement necklaces, cuffs and earrings became top sellers in museum stores and exclusive boutiques as stylish women in international fashion capitals began wearing and collecting his glamorous wearable arts.
A favorite among fashion editors, stylists and celebrities, Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry has been featured in magazines, on runways and in film. Joe recently collaborated with Disney Consumer Products to create the couture jewelry collection for the major motion picture, “Oz the Great and Powerful.”
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Although Joe Vilaiwan is known for creating large, over-the-top jewelry, he insists that anyone can wear his work—and almost everyone has, from Joan Rivers to Iris Apfel. As the founder of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry, he has made it his mission to find the perfect piece for every client who connects with his work. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he gets inspired; how he sources the unique materials he uses in his jewelry; and how he has gotten A-list press for his brand without a large budget. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
I was walking through the Beverly Hills Art Show this year. I always said I wanted to go, and this year I finally went. I went in the hopes of finding some unusual jewelry, and that’s exactly what I found. If you know me, you know I like statement jewelry, and that’s exactly what Joe Vilaiwan’s jewelry is. He is the founder and creator of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry.
If you know me, you know exactly what I like. I couldn’t decide what to choose: the over-the-top necklace or the more recognizable pearls with diamonds set in. The pearls were larger than anything you would see in real life, so you immediately knew they weren’t real and presumed the diamonds weren’t real, either. What to choose, the white pearls or the black pearls? They’re both fabulous. Clearly, I wasn’t the only one who had to have this jewelry, as the booth was swarming with people. Today, Joe will tell us how he started his business and who his clients are. Also, we’ll hear how he comes up with his ideas. Joe, welcome to the program.
Joe: Thank you for having me. My name is Joe Vilaiwan. I’m the designer and owner of Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry.
Sharon: Fine jewelry. I didn’t even try and tell you what his real name is because I don’t think I could spell it, and I don’t know if I could say it.
Joe: Joe is my nickname in Thai because everybody in Thailand has a long, complicated last name. So, it’s a last name. Everyone has a big name, so my parents also called me Joe. My friends call me Joe as well. Vilaiwan is actually my mother’s name, which means beauty in Thai. I use that to honor my mother, who is my inspiration and who taught me about business. My family had a diamond business in Thailand. I grew up with it, and that’s how I learned and got inspired and knew about jewelry.
Sharon: That’s really nice, that it means a nice thing in Thai and that you wanted to honor your mother.
Joe: Yes.
Sharon: Did you work for somebody else first or did you come here?
Joe: For the jewelry business, I have to say the only person I worked for is my mom and the other was a cat. When I was 12, I started helping my mom in her jewelry business, in her diamond business. I helped her when I was very young. However, I got my bachelor’s degree in advertising. Then I came to the U.S. to continue my education and my master’s degree, which is in interior design and research communications. I took my shot at being an interior designer and concept designer for many, many years and got really successful in that field.
I wanted to have something on my own before I’m 30, so I decided that jewelry would be the best business for me. However, growing up, I’m learning about myself. I tend to notice that I’ve been drawn to big pieces or very bold and strong concepts of art and commercial arts. Therefore, I wanted to do more handmade, fine costume jewelry because I cannot use gems in big pieces of mine. That’s how my business started. Vilaiwan Fine Jewelry was started in 2002. So, it’s over 15, 16 years ago.
Sharon: I saw that you have done a lot of work, and you’ve gotten a lot of press for your designs. I can see why that would be of interest to you.
Joe: I’m very, very blessed with all of the praise and everything, considering that I don’t have, or I’ve never hired, a PR firm. All the praise I got, it just went directly to me, with the project we did for Disney for the movie “Oz the Great and Powerful,” with all those fine fashion shows, fashion weeks, the praise all over the world, all the museums that carry my creations. I’m very blessed that I met people who actually appreciate my creations and believe in my talents.
Sharon: Would you say you decided to go after this PR, even though you didn’t have a PR firm?
Joe: Yes, I did not have a PR firm. I did not hire a PR firm. I come from an advertising background, so I have a definite perspective about this even though I don’t have it. That’s why I say I’m very fortunate that those people and those players try to find me and contact me directly. That’s how I got all that praise and all those awards.
Sharon: Would you say that most of your jewelry or all of your jewelry is statement jewelry? I thought you had a great definition of it.
Joe: People now come to me, and I will not have simple little things or small, little diamonds or small, little pieces. People come to me because they want unique. Either size, big or small, that I create—the smallest one was too big for some people, but they come to me because it’s very special. It’s one of a kind. It’s the sole concept itself. That’s what I’m known for.
Sharon: If I had a special dress and I wanted you to design something for it, but I didn’t know who you were or I didn’t know anything about your jewelry, what would I do?
Joe: Usually people find me. I have to say I’m very blessed again, because the best thing that happened to my business is actually my clients. Mostly the clients recommend other clients. Good people will bring good people to your life. I have this empire of great clients because my clients recommend clients. When I say my clients, they’re not just saying it to be nice, but they seriously make appointments for their friends or make sure their friends make appointments to come see me. Sometimes they even set their appointment so they can make sure that me and the friends come together, and that those friends get in to see my creations. All my creations are one of a kind, so they run out very quickly. They sell out very quickly, so they’re always waiting for the new pieces that will come out and try to get them before anyone else. Basically, clients recommend clients.
I also have social media. Do I want jewelry on my Instagram? Do I want fine jewelry on Facebook? People also can find me on those. The reason I don’t carry in department stores is because, again, it’s one of a kind, so they will run out quickly. I cannot go into the retail system. Also, I want my clients to be special, to be the only person who has the piece. When she wears that piece of jewelry to a particular event, she will be the only one. She would definitely be the star. I wanted to keep that spiritually and to be the lady of my life.
Usually, I never have a client who actually brings me a dress and tells me to design something for that dress. Mostly, they get the jewelry and find the dress to work around my jewelry. If they have the dress and they want to wear that dress particularly, they will come and choose the pieces they already created and I already have. I will help them find the right pieces. I have never done anything custom for a particular dress before. I actually find something I already have, that I already created, and is suited.
So far, for the past 16 years, we’ve been a success. There’s actually an interesting story. Some of my clients who always wear big designer brands—you can name it from the top of the world. She was going to an event. One time, she bought this necklace from me. This necklace was very over the top, and she said she saw my fashion show in August. That one was in Palm Springs. It’s called El Paseo Fashion Week. I had a silver and black dress, but it’s a very sweet kind of dress, and she asked me, “Who’s the designer?” She wanted to get one and buy that dress with my necklace.
So, I sent her the recent necklace she bought with that dress in her size. I did not tell her who the designer was, and she wore it. She brought so much attention, so much praise about it. Finally, she asked me, “Who’s the designer?” and I told her that the dress was only $19. I actually bought it in downtown L.A. and it could be worn in five ways. That was a shock to her. Basically, if you have my jewelry, you can honor it with other designer dresses, but you don’t have to be caught up to wear something expensive or some very well-known brand. You can buy something very basic and simple. The first thing seen is not my jewelry; it’s you. My jewelry is just supporting that dress to help you shine your own light at that particular event.
At the same time, you do not need to wear it so dressy for a night event. Mostly all my pieces are practical because they are handmade. You can actually wear them casually with a T-shirt and jeans, and you will look like a rock star as well. That’s why my clients love my jewelry; because they can wear it casually or dressy. Also, that’s why they love to collect them. Mostly all my clients are collectors, and they are my clients for at least five or six years. I have many of them that have been my clients for over 10 years. When I say over 10 years, it doesn’t mean they buy one time and then in the next 10 years another time. No, they’ve consistently been buying almost every month or every few weeks for the past 12 years or 13 years because they collect them.
Sharon: Do you have a seasonality? Do they come to you because they know it’s the fall season and you’re going to have new stuff? Is it something different for Christmas?
Joe: Interestingly, my jewelry doesn’t have any season. I don’t have a season where this piece will do well, then this piece or something like that. I know for sure that my vacation is during the holidays. Before the holidays, yes, it’s busy, but during the holidays, everyone is doing our own thing. I also visit my family, and then it will get picked up again after the holidays in January or February.
I don’t necessarily think the world now relies on, “Oh, it’s spring and summer. You need to wear bright colors, pastel colors. In fall, you need to wear darker colors and something sparkling.” I don’t think those kinds of rules are any expectation anymore. Sometime in summer, I have something in white or something that really sparkles, too. People wear whatever they want to wear, whatever can make them feel good about themselves, whatever they are actually comfortable with.
So, my answer is my jewelry is not seasonal. People will choose and always love what I create. They will wear what they want to wear in any time of their lives, in any season they want. They enjoy it because the most important thing is that when you put the right piece of jewelry on the right person, the combination of the energy of the person itself and the energy of the creator, the designer, the craftsmanship and everything, everything will be in harmony. That makes you grow. The aura comes, and it will make you feel good about yourself.
The emphasis is on that because even though it’s a big and bold piece of jewelry, I have to finish everything on the real form. It needs to blend in well with the ongoing structure. It’s not going to be something that’s big and bold and just attached to your body. It needs to blend in and be a part of your body, so you feel like this is a part of you. It will help complement your energy and your own ability, and that is why it sparkles. The smile will be more beautiful, and you’ll become your own self and the best version of you. I think that’s my job as a designer.
Sharon: So, people bring their dresses to you, and you make the jewelry. That’s what you’re saying?
Joe: No, what I’m saying is that mostly they will buy my jewelry and find a dress themselves. Or, if they bring one in, they will find what I already have.
Sharon: I see.
Joe: I will help them in that process, to help them find what I already have that will complement the dress they bring. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yes, now I understand. Do you find that some people say, “Oh, that’s too much. I could never wear that. It’s too big. It’s too over the top”?
Joe: Yes, I’ve actually experienced that many times. What I’ve learned from my experience is they will say that the first time, but once it’s on them, once they try them on, everything’s just fine. Then they will say, “I could not wear anything small anymore. I want something that’s big and bold.” They know it’s not the size; it’s the personality. That’s what is actually more important. If you have a personality that’s big enough, that’s great enough, that’s fine enough to carry my jewelry, whatever size that is, that’s what you will find.
I have a client that’s very petite and only wears big jewelry. Another client used to be one of my collectors as well before she passed away. She was very petite. Most people have necks that are 15 to 16 inches, but everything she bought, I had to customize the neck for her to be 14 ½. She’s very small, very petite, and she only wears big, huge pieces of mine. Another collector only wears huge pieces of mine. Sometimes she will put two or three of my necklaces together on top of each other. It’s not about the size, but yes, for people who’ve never known me, who have not seen my art jewelry before, sometimes the reaction is, “Oh my God, that is so big. That is so sparkling.” I always request them to try them on because you will see that sparkle in the eye. You will know that’s the right piece on the right person.
Sharon: Do you ever watch the red carpet, the award shows, and see your jewelry on them?
Joe: Yes. In the business, you basically have to pay for PR for those actors and actresses to wear it. I don’t have a lot of PR money. Every season they contact me so I can have my pieces worn on those red carpets, but I don’t believe in that. My pieces are doing very well. All my lovely clients, if they want my pieces, have to pay for them. I never give my pieces out for free. Every single client of mine pays the same price as my regular clients. All my clients are the same, as I always say, and I treat them the same. If you love it, you need to respect the artist and you have to possess them. I don’t believe in paying someone to wear your jewelry on the red carpet. I don’t believe in that. Therefore, when I watch it, it’s mostly the brands that can afford it: Chopard, Cartier, expensive, real diamonds or pieces they have the budget to put in.
For me, it’s a little bit boring. Once in a while, I will see some pieces that are strong and interesting, but mostly it’s not. I have a lot of clients who go to red carpets, not as an actress, but they go there as a producer, their lawyer, their agent and other things. They will buy my jewelry, and they bring more attention from all those stars. I don’t attach to those kinds of things, that it needs to be famous on a red carpet. For me, all my clients are the same, whether you are a famous actress or you’re a housekeeper. Everyone is treated the same.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Dirk Allgaier:
Since April 2015, Dirk Allgaier has headed Arnoldsche Art Publishers, an internationally active publisher of art books that offers a unique list of titles in the fields of fine art, applied art and design. With great expertise, sheer hard work and a passion for his profession, he and his team ensure that books from Arnoldsche become what they are: high-quality, individually designed publications and book objects that transport the broad range of creative endeavor in all its diversity across the globe.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
No other publishing house in the world has published as many books on jewelry, ceramics and other applied arts as Arnoldsche Art Publishing. Led by Dirk Allgaier, Arnoldsche is the go-to source for anyone who wants to learn more about the decorative and applied arts, the people who create them, and the museums that exhibit them. Dirk joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he selects the 10 to 15 books Arnoldsche publishes each year; how he works with artists to create a beautiful and informative book; and why a language barrier doesn’t always prevent someone from reading an art book. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
My guest is Dirk Allgaier of Arnoldsche Publishing. They’re art publishers, and if you have any kind of design library—and that includes jewelry, ceramics, monographs on artists, furniture and more—you no doubt have books that have been published by Arnoldsche. Welcome back.
Do you have people come that you haven’t heard of, but they have great expertise? Maybe they’re a professor or somebody else that has a lot of expertise in their area?
Dirk: I know our field quite well; it’s a small field, but it happens that people approach me and send me a suggestion for a new book project and I don’t know the artist. There’s always something new to discover. I say every book we are doing, not only in jewelry but also in ceramics or in wooden art, in metalware, in furniture, in textile, in glass, it opens a new window. It gives me a new prospectus to see new things which I did not know before. This is a reason why I like my job. I love my job very much.
It happened last year at the Art Jewelry Forum. Susan Cummins suggested to me to publish a book about Keith Lewis, the American jewelry artist. I really did not know his work. I read the manuscript in the evening when I was home. I was reading; I looked at the images. I was thinking, “That’s fantastic, what he did. It was the 1980s. He was so progressive. He was so political in that time, so important. Today what is he doing?” That was totally new, and now we are publishing his book. It’s designed. We are now doing the images. In about four weeks, we go to press for that book. So, it happens on the jewelry scene that artists are suggested to me, are recommended, which I do not know. But most artists, of course, I know more or less their work.
Sharon: Susan Cummins had brought you several books before this Keith Lewis one. Does that reflect? Did you take that into account when you were deciding?
Dirk: We met each other and decided to cooperate, to collaborate, because she has fantastic topics in jewelry. It’s very political, the book about Laurie Hall. It’s about Northwest American jewelry. We say in Germany it’s narrative jewelry. This kind of jewelry was not so well-known in Europe.
We have a very strong distribution. We sell our books worldwide, so we bring this topic through the book to an international audience, to the international market. It's important for this American artist to be represented through the book internationally, so it’s a win/win situation. Susan has wonderful topics for publications. We produce the books and distribute them internationally. It’s a very good joint venture.
Sharon: You distribute them. I haven’t seen them in the States, I don’t think, except the Art Jewelry Forum books. I’m seeing those, but that’s it.
Dirk: We have a distributor in the United States. It’s ACC Art Books. Every book is stored in the United States in a warehouse, and we have representatives in the United States. You can go to a bookshop and order our books, but the books are such special books that they are only in special bookstores, mainly in museum bookstores, like the Metropolitan Museum or the Museum of Modern Art in New York.
The bigger bookstores and art bookstores have our books, but everything changed in the last 10, 15, 20 years. There are not so many bookshops left, so mainly art books are available online. This is an online trade. If you did a book about Sam Kramer, if you Google Kramer, you find immediately that you have to buy our book either on Amazon or on Book DE or on Instagram. You can order the book online. It’s really a change to selling books. 60% to 70% of books we are selling now online, not through bookstores.
Sharon: Does somebody come to the website and see a book they want?
Dirk: We have a web shop. You can order the book from our web shop. That’s also possible. Wherever you are living, you can order it. For example, when you are living in the United States, you can order it from the web shop, and our American partner or American distributor will send you the book within a short timeframe. Within three or four days, you will have the book.
Sharon: Now, some of your books are only in German.
Dirk: Yes.
Sharon: Since I don’t speak a word of German, what do you do? Do you have some in English and some in German and some half and half?
Dirk: It depends on the topic. We publish in many languages, but the main language is English. That’s definitive. English is very important, but there’s also German if it doesn’t have a major audience. Then it’s also a question of money or financing. There are translation codes, which are very extensive. You have to make an extra typesetting. You need more pages. You need more printing. Then we say, “O.K., we leave it only in German. We know we would not sell many copies in the English-speaking market, so we leave it in German.” But mainly the books are in English.
A few are only in German, but if the artist comes from another country, we also publish books, for example, in the French language, in Italian, in the Norwegian language, also in Estonian, in Catalan. We have two books in the Hebrew language, in Arabic and even in the Japanese language. It depends where the artist is living and in which country the topic is, and then we publish in different languages.
Sharon: Wow! The jewelry you mentioned, and in looking at your books, it’s so contemporary. Is that what you look for? It’s really unusual.
Dirk: Yeah, because for us, jewelry is art. There is no difference. It’s studio jewelry. It’s art jewelry. It’s like an art book. We have to publish jewelry books like an art book, and that’s very important. The style of the jewelry, its artistic value, is represented in the book, so the quality must be very high. You must see the high value of jewelry. You must see it in the book. That’s why it’s important for us.
Sharon: That’s interesting. So, you wouldn’t publish a book on “normal” jewelry.
Dirk: We do books about higher-range costume jewelry because they’re fantastic topics. In the 1920s in Germany, in the Art Deco period, there were companies who did articles of fantastic jewelry. Next year, we are planning a book about the New York jewelry designer Marcus & Co. So, we have books about art and costume jewelry, but not about the regular jewelry you can buy in a regular shop. This is not our interest.
Sharon: Have you ever started a book and then said, “Forget it. This is too complicated,” or “There’s not a market”?
Dirk: No, normally we don’t. If I start something, I bring it to an end. That’s very important for me, even if it’s very, very difficult. Usually, once we start on a book, we finish it. That’s very important. I remember a book we did 20 years ago. It was about an Italian topic, and everybody told me at the time, “You would never publish that book. You would never finalize it,” but we did it. That made me very proud; that we did this book finally. Every book we’ve started, we finished the book.
For me, it’s important to publish a book together with an artist or with a partner—the person is a partner for me—with a lot of mutual respect and to achieve a result which satisfies everybody: the publishing house, the artist, the museum. If we work together for three, four, five months, it’s like a partnership. You work very intensively together with an artist, and the results just have to be right. That’s very important. You put the book together; you celebrate; you’re happy. That’s how it should be, and that’s how it is, usually.
Sharon: Do you go to book trade shows where they have new books? I don’t know if they still have them. They used to have book trade shows.
Dirk: They had it some years ago, but there’s no big importance anymore. There are book fairs in Frankfurt, so we go to Frankfurt. 20 years ago, we went to the Chicago Book Fair, to the American Book Fair, to London, but we don’t do that so much. We have our books at the Schmuck in Munich, of course. You can buy them at the Schmuck Fair, or if there are special ceramic fairs, special jewelry events. We also have bookshops that go there. They have their stands there, and there are books at these events.
Sharon: I was looking online at your books. I noticed there were books about Babetto and I was surprised. None of it looked at the jewelry; they looked at the furniture and the drawings and things like that. What made you decide to do a second book on Babetto?
Dirk: The first book—I think it was the year 2009, 2010. Pinakothek der Moderne is a big museum, and every year during Schmuck, they have a big exhibition on the roof of the rotunda. Every year they show a different artist. They showed Thomas Gentille, for example, Anton Frühauf, Hermann Jünger, Peter Skubic. 15 years ago, they showed Giampaolo Babetto. We did a small but very special book on Giampaolo Babetto on the occasion of the exhibition. That was 2008, 2009.
Last year, Giampaolo asked, “Can you come to Italy? Can we meet? I’m planning a new book.” He planned a complete oeuvre catalogue of all his work in jewelry, in metalware, in architectural design, in religious pieces. So, we did an oeuvre catalogue. All his work from the beginning until 2022 is published in the book. Those are two different approaches. One was very personal for the exhibition, and this last was the catalogue about his work. It’s a total Babetto.
Sharon: That’s interesting. There didn’t seem to be that much jewelry in the Babetto books. It was more his other designs, his other things.
Dirk: One half of the book is jewelry. The other half is his metalworks, his furniture designs and the other things.
Sharon: For those who don’t know what Schmuck is, do you want to describe it?
Dirk: It’s an annual event in Munich on the occasion of the International Art and Crafts Fair. It’s an international trade fair for crafts and design. In 1959, it was founded by Herbert Hoffmann. It was a competition where contemporary jewelry was presented in a small part of the fair. That was the beginning over 60 years ago. It was a very small event, but every year it became bigger.
Now it’s still the Herbert Hoffmann Award, the Herbert Hoffmann Exhibition, but throughout the whole city, there are about 50, 60 galleries showing jewelry in contemporary galleries. They rent a space, they show jewelry, and they come from all over the world. It’s a huge event which lasts five days. You can see a lot of jewelry. You have gallery exhibitions. You have some museums that show jewelry. The Mesa is a big exhibition. The whole world of contemporary art jewelry, of studio jewelry, is in Munich.
Sharon: I’ve only been a couple of times, but I didn’t know Herbert Hoffmann was so integral in it. I know they have a prize.
Dirk: Yeah, the award. You can go online. You can look up the Herbert Hoffmann Award and see the prize winners from 1959. You read these names, and it’s really the top of the top of international jewelry artists. It’s very interesting to read the award winners of the Herbert Hoffmann Prize.
Sharon: Wow! I didn’t know it was so old, either. These people, the authors who want to write a book or a museum, do they have the person in mind who’s going to put the book together? Do they have the illustrator? Do they have the photographer in mind, or do they let you decide?
Dirk: It’s important if you write a book to have photographs available. Every artist has an archive of photographs, and every artist’s archive is different. Some have a very accurate archive with good photographs, and they know exactly what goes into the books. Some other artists have only images or older slides. Here we can be of help. We can make sense of old photographs. Usually, an artist has photographs for the book and they know which pieces should go into the book, but often I sit together with artists and we go through the materials, through the pieces. For an artist, it’s often difficult to make a decision, to take this piece or that piece. Then we sit together and say, “It’s that piece and not that.”
Photography is very important. An artist can have a designer, or we have the designer and we do image editing for the images. We do printing, and then we include the book in our book program, into our publishing list. Then we send the book worldwide on our list. This is the way.
Sharon: What country are most of your sales in? I don’t know if it’s Germany or Switzerland or Austria.
Dirk: We are selling one-third of our books in German-speaking countries, in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. They still have a strong market for art books and for jewelry books. Two-thirds we sell outside the German-speaking countries. England is a very important market. Scandinavia buys our books, and, of course, the American market is important for us. We sell books in China. We have one representative and he’s Chinese. There are big distributors in China, so we are sending books to the distributors, and they are selling the books to the individual bookstores and individual customers in the country. Japan is very difficult to sell books. South Korea is an important market for us. We sell some books in Australia as well, but I can say Germany, England, America and China. These are very important markets for us.
Sharon: If somebody doesn’t speak the language—I’m thinking of myself—do you just look at the pictures? What do you do?
Dirk: There’s a society of booksellers here in Germany. They made a test with people. They asked a thousand people, “What are you doing when you buy a book with images such as an art book? What are you doing with the book? Do you read it? Do you look at images?” They found out that only 10% of the book buyers are reading a book. 90% are looking at the images and reading here and there a little bit, but almost nobody is reading a book from the beginning to the end.
Sharon: I don’t feel so bad because I look at the pictures. What languages have you thought about? Have you thought about French? Are there other languages you’ve thought about putting your books in?
Dirk: I think English and German are the most important. In France, it’s difficult to sell books because the market is very small. When we have a French artist, of course we publish the book in French, but if the artist is not French, we don’t publish a book in the French language. It’s a small market. The book trade market is quite difficult, so the artist should be French-speaking, and then you publish it in French.
I would like to publish a book in the Chinese language, in Mandarin, because we didn’t do this yet. We have a book about New Zealand artists coming in two years, and it would be wonderful to have at least one essay in Māori, in the native language of New Zealand. That would really be a task for me to do, but it would appreciate the First Nations people of the country.
Sharon: Any other plans besides other languages? What are your plans besides the books in production? What else would you like to do?
Dirk: Generally, for me it’s important that every half-year we have a catalogue. All our new books are featured in a catalogue which we send out every half-year. So, for me, the most important challenge is to have a good program to find newer catalogues which I present to people every half-year. This is the most important.
And to find a place for our special books, because it’s not easy to find places. It’s a niche program to find readers, to find people who buy the books and to find new people who did not know anything about artistic jewelry or studio jewelry. So, to find new people to bring a fascination for art into the world and to find new friends, new people who really love our work. That’s the most important thing for me.
Sharon: I hope that you do. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.
Dirk: Thank you very much, Sharon. Thank you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Dirk Allgaier:
Since April 2015, Dirk Allgaier has headed Arnoldsche Art Publishers, an internationally active publisher of art books that offers a unique list of titles in the fields of fine art, applied art and design. With great expertise, sheer hard work and a passion for his profession, he and his team ensure that books from Arnoldsche become what they are: high-quality, individually designed publications and book objects that transport the broad range of creative endeavor in all its diversity across the globe.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
No other publishing house in the world has published as many books on jewelry, ceramics and other applied arts as Arnoldsche Art Publishing. Led by Dirk Allgaier, Arnoldsche is the go-to source for anyone who wants to learn more about the decorative and applied arts, the people who create them, and the museums that exhibit them. Dirk joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he selects the 10 to 15 books Arnoldsche publishes each year; how he works with artists to create a beautiful and informative book; and why a language barrier doesn’t always prevent someone from reading an art book. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
My guest is Dirk Allgaier of Arnoldsche Publishing. They’re art publishers, and if you have any kind of design library—and that includes jewelry, ceramics, monographs on artists, furniture and more—you no doubt have books that have been published by Arnoldsche. As I was browsing the books online, I kept seeing so many books I have that I didn’t know were published by Arnoldsche. For the most part, they are in English and German, and the books are beautifully printed. Dirk will tell us how his path took him to where he is today. Dirk, welcome to the program.
Dirk: Thank you very much, Sharon. Very glad to be here.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you here. Dirk was just telling me that he has lived in Stuttgart for 30 years, 25 years, a long time. Can you tell us what a publisher does?
Dirk: That’s a very good question, Sharon. There’s really a lot to it. I tried to explain to you some things, to tell you about some things. Mainly it is my job to see that we put together an attractive book program every six months, every half-year. This is in the field of applied arts, which is our main series of books. It’s jewelry, ceramics, textiles, wood and glass, but also the areas of visual design, of the visual arts and design.
I receive many book proposals. I have to check them. I have to calculate them, but I’ve also got to be active by myself from my side, and I have to talk to artists. I have to meet museum curators. For example, I go to museums, to exhibition openings. I go to Schmuck in Munich, so I’m really traveling a lot. I visit all these places. You also have to be in the field where our publishing areas are, in the field of jewelry, of ceramics. I have to be there; I have to be active.
In parallel, we have to put out used books. We have 10, 15 books always in parallel production, and we have to approach miniatures. The production is supervised by the project managers, but I’m integrated into the processes of each book because I have to know the exact starters of every book project. I must be approachable by the artist, by the museum curator, by the director if any problem arises or if important decisions have to be made.
So, one part is traveling; the other part is production. I’m also responsible for sales and marketing. We have a colleague who does this, but I also have to look at how things can be optimized, how we can sell the books in the best way internationally. Unfortunately, a lot of administrative tasks have to be done. They are also very extensive. Finally, I write some articles for newspapers, for magazines. I give talks. I hold speeches for exhibition openings. I attend meetings, or I’m speaking for podcasts like now. This is also a very interesting and exciting part of my role as a publisher. All in all, there’s a lot of work, enough work to work for at least seven days a week.
Sharon: Are you saying that right this minute, there are 10 to 15 books that are being worked on?
Dirk: Yes, that’s it. About 10 to 15 books are always in production parallel, in the different steps of production. Either we are actually starting the editing, or we are preparing the design, or we are doing translations, or we are doing the color separations. Today, the Schmuckmuseum of Pforzheim curator was here. We’re doing a new book about jewelry and metalwork, and we checked the colors. We checked the color proofs today. We discussed the cover. There are always a lot of book productions in parallel here at Arnoldsche.
Sharon: This is something that is just occurring to me. Do they have input? If they don’t like the color, can they say to you they don’t like the color?
Dirk: That’s very important. I try to show everything to my partner, to the museum or to the artist. I show them the design concept of the book so we are not only designing the book. Before we start with the real design, we make some tests on pages, and we send the pages to the artist or to the museum. We say, “Oh, look, the book could look like these pages. Here is a type that’s the kind of like the images. The captions are like that. We have some special colors.” Then the museum can say, “Oh, I like it. Please continue,” or “Oh no, I want to have a different kind.” This is very important for me in the production, to work as closely as possible together with the museum or the author.
Sharon: Can the museum come and say, “I had something totally different in mind”? Can whoever is working on the book say they had something else in mind?
Dirk: Yes, they can say it. Usually, we get a briefing and the museum tells me, “Oh, I want a very modern book,” or “Very conservative,” or “I have some crazy ideas.” But it must fit to the topics; that’s very important. We publish books about 18th century arts and crafts, about porcelain from the 18th and 19th centuries. Here’s a design that has to be quite conventional, or conservative is a better word. But if we work with a very unusual, contemporary designer, we can be much more provocative and contemporary in the design.
Sharon: How did you come to publishing art and applied design books? Do you have a background in it?
Dirk: Yes, I’ll tell you shortly the story of the company. Arnoldsche, our publishing house, was founded in 1985. This is now almost 40 years ago. The founder of the publishing house—he passed away five years ago—his name was Dieter Zühlsdorff. He had previously, back in the 1970s, lived here in Stuttgart. He had a gallery for fine arts, for paintings, but his real passion was not the fine arts; it was ceramics. In the late 70s, early 80s, he closed the gallery and wrote an encyclopedia of ceramic marks. He traveled throughout Europe. There was no email, no websites. Maybe a fax machine was the most modern technical thing. He traveled for five years and wrote the “Ceramic Marks Encyclopedia” on the Art Nouveau and Art Deco period from 1880 to 1930.
When the manuscript was finished, he went in search of a publisher. He didn’t plan to found a publishing house, but no publisher wanted to publish his “Ceramic Marks Encyclopedia,” so he was not sure what to do. He sold a painting from his collection to a large bank in Germany. He used this money to print his “Ceramic Marks Encyclopedia,” and that was the beginning of Arnoldsche Art Publishers. That encyclopedia became a best seller in a total of four editions.
The name Arnoldsche comes from his wife at the time. She’s living. Her name is Gabriela Arnold; Arnold is her last name. Arnoldsche is still a little bit complicated for English speakers. Here, Arnoldsche sounds much better in German than Zühlsdorff, which was the last name of the founder. That’s a Pomeranian name, very complicated. I think the English people would not be able to pronounce that name. So, we decided on Arnoldsche, and in German, we say Verlaganstadt. Verlaganstadt means publishing house. That sounds a little bit old-fashioned, but I like that old-fashioned name. In English we say Arnoldsche Art Publishers.
Dieter Zühlsdorff, he acted very wisely when he founded the company because he realized there were many publishers in the area of fine arts or architecture, but there was no publishing house that explicitly dealt with the applied arts, with jewelry, ceramics, glass and furniture. So, we can say internationally, Arnoldsche is the only publishing house in the world that focuses on jewelry, ceramics, glass and textile, and we realized a lot of publications in that field.
Sharon: Did you have a background in it?
Dirk: I’m a trained archaeologist. I’m not an art historian. I studied archaeology. I made my degree. I like it very much, but artistry has fascinated me from a very young age. When I was a child, I went with my parents to see museums, to meet artists. My parents had a collection of paintings.
When I completed my studies, I did a separate training course to become a publishing house clerk. This training course lasted one year. It included a three-month internship in a publishing house, and you had to take care of this internship by yourself. I had no idea where to apply. I was in Stuttgart, and I had a friend who was a bookseller. She gave me a recommendation. She told me, “Apply to a small art publishing house here in Stuttgart. They make the most beautiful books, and they are just around the corner from the place where you have the training.” She was speaking about Arnoldsche.
So, I went there about 30 years ago, in 1993, and I got the job for a three-month internship at Arnoldsche. It started for three months, and now I’m working for 30 years at Arnoldsche. I’m very grateful to my friend for her recommendation. We still meet regularly even though she now lives in northern Germany. I’m very thankful to her for recommending me. “Go to Arnoldsche, ring the bell and apply for a job.” I did that 30 years ago.
Sharon: Wow! Like you said, you must be approached all the time by people who have ideas and say, “Why don’t you do a book on this?” or “I have all this material on that.” How do you decide which books to do?
Dirk: That’s always a difficult decision because we receive a lot of proposals for book productions. For one thing—and I think that’s very important—the book has to fit in our program. For example, a book about the photography of the Alps or about Renaissance art would not fit well in our program. For us, it’s very important to find new topics; in other words, topics that have not been published before. It makes no sense for us to publish a 50s book about Picasso or about Matisse; that’s not our interest.
There has to be a market for a book. It has to be saleable. We have to publish books about artists who have worked for many decades in their fields. Also, younger artists come to me. They’re in their late 30s or their 40s, and they ask for a book. I often say, “Wait another 10 years. You need a bigger work of art, a mature work, and then you can come back to me and we can think about a book.”
Very important art books on the theme of jewelry are the books about the great masters of jewelry. These are really important publications. Just to name a few, for example, Otto Künzli, the Swiss artist, Bernhard Schobinger, Manfred Bischoff. Last year, we published a book about Joyce Scott, the American artist, and the Israeli artist Deganit Stern Schocken, Therese Hilbert. Here, a large body of work over many decades can be wonderfully presented in a beautiful book form. That’s really exciting.
There are publications on collections of contemporary jewelry. This is also very important. These are mainly museum collections. For example, we have published about the jewelry collection of Eva and Peter Herion in Munich, which you can see when you go down to the basement. It’s a major publication about the collection of the jewelry museum in Pforzheim, the Schmuckmuseum. We did it in 1998 with the legendary former director, Fritz Falk. There’s the GRASSI Museum in Leipzig, a very important museum in East Germany. There’s a very traditional collection and there’s a collection of jewelry. They started to collect in the 1920s. We did a book about the jewelry collection of Sylvia Seal and of Art and Design in New York also. These collections are very exciting for us. I do not want to forget to mention the legendary publication by Helen Drutt, “Ornament as Art.” It’s about her collection, which is now in the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston. People call that book the “orange book” or the “Bible of jewelry books.” I think you know that book.
What’s also very important for us are theory books about jewelry. We have a book on the jewelry of Marjan Unger from the Netherlands. She did the book “Jewelry in Context.” These books are very important for students, for example. They are quite affordable in price. They’re 15 Euros, so students buy these theory books.
If you come to Arnoldsche, there’s finally one topic that is very important because it’s the most elementary, because every book can’t be one: special books. We are publishing in a niche; it’s a real niche, and the quantity of books, the editions, are not so high. Every book needs special financial support, so we ask for financial support from foundations. The potential sales is low compared to the very high cost of distribution. You do not usually recoup the high production cost. So, museums, collectors, foundations themselves make books financially possible in the first place through a corresponding purchased quantity. That is how a book can be realized through financial support; by purchasing books in advance. A special part will be paid by Arnoldsche and for the other part, we look for sponsors or our foundations to financially support it. These are the different things to consider for Arnoldsche book publishing.
Sharon: When you are out and about—let’s say you’re traveling—do you find exhibits that you didn’t know about or things you can approach people about?
Dirk: Yes, I go to exhibition openings. Of course, I go to Schmuck in Munich, a big Schmuck event. I go to Munich, to exhibition openings. I go to Norway, to Switzerland, and I always meet the artists. I also meet authors and they tell me, “Oh, I’m working on a project. I’m working with this artist or with that museum. They are looking for a publisher. Would you mind if I make a contact?”
For me, it’s very important to visit these places, to go to openings, to meet curators because we are like a big family. Everybody knows something and people speak with each other. They say, “Here’s a project. There is a book. It’s planned to be an exhibition. They are looking for a publisher. They are planning a book for next year,” and I say, “O.K., please, if you can make a connection and the person can contact me.” Then we are discussing the possibility of collaboration for the book project.
Sharon: Do they come with photographs or do you say, “I want to photograph this”?
Dirk: For me, it’s important to have an exposé, a short summary of the book. What is in the book, what is the sense of the book, whom do I want to reach with the book, who is the audience? And to send me some photographs, some preliminary information to get an idea of how the book will be, what the topic of the book is. That’s enough for me, and then we continue our discussion.
Sharon: Do you or your production assistants decide the cover of the book and what it will look like? Who decides?
Dirk: We have freelance designers. We work together, but often artists or jewelers or ceramic artists who are planning a monograph about their work, they bring their own graphic designers with them. That’s often fine with me because the collaboration between artist and designer is very intensive, and artists and designers should work together personally as often as possible. Often at Arnoldsche, we are responsible for the design, but always in collaboration with the artist.
We have a graphic designer. We’ve worked together with her for almost 13 years. She designs many of our books and many artists know her. They come to us. They say, “We’re planning a book, but we want to have this designer. We trust this designer.” There are artists who give us the whole material. They give us the photographs and the text, then they make a book and she makes a design. We show it before printing and they say, “Oh, make this little change. Oh, make that little change. Go to the press.” There are other artists who look very carefully, who ask for changes, but every one is absolutely fine for us.
We love to work together with her. She designed the book on Helen Drutt for “Ornament as Art,” the orange book, but she also designed important jewelry monographs; for example, the book on Sam Kramer, a jewelry designer. She did the book about Giampaolo Babetto, about Fritz Maierhofer from Austria, about Georg Dobler or Claus Bury, two famous German designers.
Usually, we say if a graphic designer designs the inside pages of a book, they also have to design the cover. The inside pages and cover have to be in accordance with each other. It should fit to each other. That’s very important, to have one designer for the whole book. A designer is also like an artist in a way. You cannot ask an artist to make this part and another artist makes this part. The whole book has to be in the hands of one designer.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jeff Russak
Jeff Russak is principal of Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers. Jeff's expertise in antique and 20th century jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition, and style directs the acquisition process. His proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. In demand as a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows, he also volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When it comes to buying jewelry, nothing is more important than trust. That’s why Jeff Russak, principal at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers, won’t hesitate to leave a purchase behind if his inner voice tells him something is wrong. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he vets his purchases and the dealers he works with; what red flags buyers should watch out for; and why a receipt is more powerful than you might think. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Jeff Russak, one of the principals of Lawrence Jeffrey. They are estate dealers located in Litchfield, Connecticut. Jeff has had decades of experience buying and selling. He’s also extremely knowledgeable about estate jewelry. Welcome back.
What are the mistakes you see people make, whether in the receipt, in the returns or not asking the right questions? What are the mistakes you see?
Jeff: The mistakes I see boil down to trusting the wrong person. There you are, and they’re showing you a five-carat ruby. It’s fire-engine red and pretty clear. It’s in a nice ring, and it’s $12,000 to $14,000. I can think of a half dozen booths I’ve seen at shows that had jewelry like this. Well, it’s a good deal, and they’re going to tell you it’s a good deal. They’re going to tell you how beautiful it is, but somewhere your brain must be going, “I’m a little worried.” If you’re a little worried, stop. I can tell you that those rubies were glass-filled. Of course, they looked good. Were they rubies? The GIA would call them a red, man-made product rather than a ruby. I’ve gotten a report on such a stone, and that’s what they said.
I think you have to listen to your voice. The less you know, the more wary you need to be, and the more questions you need to ask. The more questions you ask, eventually you’re going to hear things that are going to lead you to either trust and buy or not trust and not buy. If I were a neophyte, I would be like, “Wow, that’s a really good price. That’s so much less than I’ve seen for similar pieces. Is the stone natural?” If they say, “Oh yes, this is an all-natural ruby,” I would say, “Will you write that on my receipt?” Then you have recourse. Now we’re getting into federal law.
Again, we’re talking about someone who doesn’t know. You have to ask questions to try and get a sense. It’s like questioning your six-year-old who’s definitely got cupcake crumbs on his fingers. You know something has happened. You’re not quite sure what, but you’re pretty sure. You want to give him a chance. “So, what have you been up to?” “Oh, nothing.” “What’s on your fingers?” They’re going to look at their fingers. “Nothing but these crumbs.” “Crumbs, really?” So, you begin to get an idea.
The truth is there’s no silver bullet for solving these issues. I tell my clients to decide what fun money is to you. For some people, that’s $100. For other people, that’s $10,000. If you don’t want to become more expert in something you want to buy a lot of, if you’re going to spend more than fun money, ask an expert. Bring someone in who’s knowledgeable, who’s an expert, and take it from there. I do that too. I’m pretty expert in a lot of stuff. When I buy a very high-end sapphire, I have someone out on the West Coast who is strictly an expert on sapphire. I will often send it to that person to have it evaluated in much greater detail than a lab report. I will speak with them, and they will walk me through tracing all those factors in the marketplace and how they relate to establish what a wholesale price for it would be, and even sometimes what a retail price would be. A small difference in color in a five-carat stone could be a $10,000 to $20,000 difference at retail.
Sharon: That’s certainly true. Can you look at a piece of gold and tell who the designer is or where it’s from?
Jeff: The first thing I do is look for the hallmarks. I’m deft with reading hallmarks, and if I don’t know—just this morning, I was taking a picture of a hallmark I couldn’t find anywhere. Our shop has a library off the main floor, and the walls are covered with books on all the various designers, on gemology, on the history of jewelry. Then there are cases, which are closed, and they’re filled with catalogues, every Tiffany catalogue from 1951. We have probably 60 or 70 Cartier catalogues. We have primary reference material we look at and use, but the short answer is about a third of the time, I can look at something and tell you who made it. But until I look at those hallmarks, it’s just a really well-informed guess.
Sharon: Can you tell the age of something? If you don’t know who made it, can you tell the age just by looking?
Jeff: Yes, by examining the piece and taking cues from both the aesthetic choices the goldsmith made, but also from the resources the goldsmith had when they were doing the fabrication. That usually is what tells me when something was made. The resources often dictate the mechanical style. For instance, the French often prefer not to physically join pieces in necklaces. They have a particular way of hinging them. It’s sort of a pin with a mushroom cap. When you see that, you almost always know that’s a French piece or it was made by someone who studied in France. If it’s a Genevan piece, well, the Genevans often studied across the border. There are a lot of clues. It just takes time to learn them.
Sharon: The people who work for you or with you, what do you suggest they learn? Do they follow you around, or do you show them each piece?
Jeff: I have a really knowledgeable staff. They know a lot. Truthfully, I tell them all the time that they know a lot more than they think. They get to a certain point and I stop telling them; I just ask. In the beginning, though, they’ll hesitate. They’ll say something and it’s almost always right. They have good instincts. When they’ve handled enough pieces, when we’ve pulled the books off the shelf—like when I look at Georgian pieces, I don’t just go, “Oh, this George III,” or “Oh, this is George IV,” or “This is early Victorian.” They look different aesthetically in many cases, but the way the mountings are made, for instance, changes in subtle ways over a period of time. So, I’ll go back to a reference book, and I’ll pull out a dozen pictures from each period, say from 1740 to 1780 and then 1780 to 1800, and try and make sure to narrow it down. Some people have that in their heads. That one still hasn’t stuck for me, so I always look it up to make sure.
And I have a photo repository. There are many museums that allow you to take photographs. I have extensive photographs of pieces from the Treasury in Vienna because they allow photographs. I believe the British Museum has a vast collection—I don’t believe; I know they have a vast collection of Victorian. They allow photographs, whereas the V&A, I don’t think they do; I’m trying to remember. So, we have those resources as well. We’re always trying to learn, and we take staff trips to museums. I’m hoping to take the staff on a museum tour, maybe in London at some point because there’s so much to learn there. Every time I go, it reinforces what I’ve seen before.
Sharon: Are there tours? I’m asking for a personal reason. Are there tours like you’re talking about?
Jeff: I think there are some jewelry tours. I want to say maybe get involved with Jewelry Week, the folks who run that. I don’t know of any. We would just go on our own. I know where to go and what to look at and which dealers to visit, the rock stars of our world.
Recently the Vegas Show went on, which is a dealer-only show. I was standing in a taxi line with my creative director, and we just struck up a conversation with one of the Heyman brothers from Oscar Heyman. I had no idea who he was, and we’re just talking about stuff. I didn’t even know he was in the jewelry world. Then he said something, and I was like, “Oh, you’re at one of the shows. What do you do? Who are you with?” He said, “I’m with Oscar Heyman. I’m such-and-such Heyman,” and I said, “Oh, wow! We love your work so much. We follow you. We look at your work. You have such an amazing reputation.” They’re the nicest people. He was so lovely. He looks around like he’s looking for somebody and says, “Did my mother send you?”
There’s a group of people who are fantastically honest. I would recommend anyone to buy their jewelry, to deal with them, to use them as a resource if you have a Heyman piece. You can get in touch with them, and they will help you. They’re really an example of the absolute pinnacle of an exemplary firm, and arguably maybe the most important American firm today.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear you say that you go from high to low or low to high in terms of looking at jewelry.
Jeff: One of the things I wanted to talk about was all the different ways we can buy. We have so many choices today as a buyer. I think it’s confusing somewhat, and some of the choices open up the opportunity to confuse people on purpose. You have dealers. You have dealers who have shops. You have dealers at shows. You have dealers who have online shops and in-person shops. You have dealers who only have online shops. You have online gateways. That’s like a 1stDibs or an eBay, where dealers have their own space on these. You have flea markets, estate sales, tax sales. You have auctions in person. You have online auctions. Now, you have guaranteed preowned. You can go to Cartier and buy an estate piece guaranteed preowned like you buy a guaranteed preowned Mercedes. A number of those stores are doing that. Then you have buying from a friend, a private person, The RealReal, or Poshmark. There are places where regular people have somebody else sell their things or maybe they sell their own things. You have Facebook moms’ groups. You have Facebook Marketplace.
That’s a lot of places to buy things, but here’s the thing: the rules for how you buy are exactly the same no matter who you’re buying from, and the laws that control these sales are exactly the same no matter who you buy from. That’s a hard thing to remember. If you’re shopping for an engagement ring, a mom who’s selling her engagement ring may not want to give you a proper receipt. She might not even know she’s supposed to, but she may only sort of remember what the diamond weight was. Maybe she didn’t buy a diamond at all, or maybe she was given a diamond ring and it wasn’t a diamond; maybe it was a Moissanite; maybe it was a synthetic diamond. All the more reason why you need a receipt. I’m not even saying that anyone is trying to do something dishonest in this situation. I’m saying that you’re spending a decent little chunk of change or a big chunk of change, and you have to protect yourself. The more risk, the more careful you have to be.
I’m just as careful as an ordinary buyer. I have a lot more knowledge that helps, but I’m just as careful. We buy from other dealers, obviously, all the time. There’s a psychology of dealers selling to one another. Even though we’re dyed-in-the-wool retailers, we still sell very specialized diamonds. We have several dealers in Europe who buy very specialized, historic pieces from us that are worth a lot more to their customers than they certainly would be to mine. It's not my specialty; it’s not my niche. So, I have all the same issues buying from another dealer that a regular person might have buying through a moms’ group. It’s the same problems and issues, and it’s the same task in terms of making sure you’re getting what you think you’re buying.
Sharon: Do you sell a lot online? Do you notice a difference in the questions people ask?
Jeff: I’m going to say off the cuff that I think there are more questions from my online buyers than from my in-person buyers. I think there are more questions, and more detailed questions. I think they’re smart. The online buyer does not have the opportunity to look me in the eye, doesn’t get to see where I’m standing or a sense of whether there’s an exchange of information. Maybe they ask, “How long have you been in business?” “Well, we’ve been here in Litchfield for 26 years. We own the space we’re in, so I’m hoping not to go anywhere else. This is my ideal. You’ll find me here next year and hopefully in 10 years, in 20 years.” Beyond that, I’m not sure I can say any more, but I think the online buyer has to be just as wary, but perhaps in different ways.
Sharon: What kinds of ways? As to the right questions?
Jeff: The questions I get asked a lot: I get asked if I could send a video of the piece in natural light because they’re concerned about the color. You know what? They should be. We have great photographic resources. Frequently I will decline to let my team sell a piece online because we can’t get a picture that properly shows the color of a colored stone. Even though it looks right on our screens, which are calibrated, it’s going to look really different on a phone. Phone screens are the best. It's going to look better on a phone than it might even look in person. It’s going to look different on different screens.
So, I think it’s not a bad thing to ask some questions. Personally, I would call and say, “What does this look like in person? Can you describe it?” That’s a frequent question, and I think it’s a good one. People ask about the guarantee. You and I have discussed many times that the 10-second lecture on buying online is all about the guarantee. You have to be guaranteed that you can return something you don’t like for any reason, no questions asked.
Sharon: If I knew I could return something without any questions asked, I’d probably feel more comfortable, at least on some of these purchases.
Jeff: I agree completely. There are many situations where you can’t return pieces that are online and where you can’t inspect them in person. As dealers, we can deal with having a certain amount of loss. Maybe in this particular situation, you buy from them several times a year, and maybe two or three pieces aren’t right and you have to fix them. You hope to sell them for something close to what you paid and you move on. People say, “Well, it’s just the cost of doing business.” As long as you feel like you’re doing well overall, then O.K., that’s great. But I think if you have a bad experience as a buyer, as a consumer, I would probably not go back to that situation. I would try to find some place you trust more.
Sharon: That’s probably good advice. Jeff, thank you so much for giving us your tips. I’m sure there are a lot more we didn’t cover, but thank you very much.
Jeff: You’re so welcome.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jeff Russak
Jeff Russak is principal of Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers. Jeff's expertise in antique and 20th century jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition, and style directs the acquisition process. His proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. In demand as a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows, he also volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When it comes to buying jewelry, nothing is more important than trust. That’s why Jeff Russak, principal at Lawrence Jeffrey Estate Jewelers, won’t hesitate to leave a purchase behind if his inner voice tells him something is wrong. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he vets his purchases and the dealers he works with; what red flags buyers should watch out for; and why a receipt is more powerful than you might think. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Jeff Russak, one of the principals of Lawrence Jeffrey. They are estate dealers located in Litchfield, Connecticut. Jeff has had decades of experience buying and selling. He’s also extremely knowledgeable about estate jewelry. Along the way, he has learned about what a good dealer should be doing and what you should know in order not to be taken advantage of. There are lots that dealers know about good dealers that the ordinary buyer doesn’t know. He will fill us in on some of that today. Jeff, welcome to the podcast.
Jeff: Thank you for having me. I’m thrilled to be here.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you. This is the second time you’ve been on. I’m glad you decided to come back.
I bought a diamond tennis bracelet several years ago—well, a long time ago—that I was told was Art Deco. Then, when I showed it to somebody else, they said, “That cut wasn’t done until the 80s.” I still like the bracelet, but how could I have avoided that without knowing everything there is to know about diamonds?
Jeff: That’s a really great question, and it’s actually kind of a complicated one. The person who looked at it did something which is very basic. They looked at the cut of the diamonds. That’s one of the things I do when I’m determining the age of any piece. We look at the stones. We have a good general idea of when different cuts, for diamonds or otherwise, were established.
The short answer is I think the only way you could have avoided that would have been to have a better handle on whether this dealer is expert enough to make that determination or not. That can be a hard thing to do. We’ve talked about how to buy, and a lot of how to buy is all about who you decide to trust. I think for the average buyer, figuring out who you trust and who you feel comfortable with is really the bottom line.
I’ll tell a story about one of our better clients. We didn’t know this for years, but they’re people who have become friends. They started buying from us when we were very new to the business. They didn’t buy just jewelry, but they bought decorative arts. We didn’t know it, but every single piece they bought from us was going to one of the top appraisal firms in New York and being appraised and verified. After quite a number of years, they told us this. That that was one of the reasons why they kept coming back, because everything was O.K. We passed the test for authentication and for value. Perhaps that’s a bit extreme for most people, but it’s certainly one way.
I would say it’s listening to that little voice in your head. I think today a lot of what I’d like to talk about is how I buy, because the way I buy is no different from the way I recommend that everybody buys. Of course, there are things I know that an average buyer is not going to know, but a lot of what I do is simply being a good detective and listening to that voice in my head. When the voice in my head says, “Don’t buy something,” even a little bit, I just don’t buy, or when the voice in my head says, “I don’t know if this relationship is for me.” Maybe I think the person is a lot smarter than I am. That happens. So, how am I going to know I’m making the right connection, buying for the right price so I can present pieces to my clients for the right price? A lot of it is your instincts. Trust your instincts. It’s so tempting to buy something that looks great or you’ve been told is great or you’ve been told is a good deal, but if you don’t have that sense, that feeling you should, then you shouldn’t.
Sharon: Is that how you buy all the time or most of the time?
Jeff: That is definitely part of what I do. It’s a big part. We tend to make relationships, and we buy a lot from individual relationships. Some buyers are like bees who are busy pollinating every flower in the field. I think that’s really funny. If that’s your style, I think you should do it and you should enjoy it. That’s a different risk level and a different set of rules. If find people who I really trust, people who are open and transparent with me, who answer my questions in a very forthright way, then those are the folks I go back to again and again. I have the same advice for anyone.
Sharon: Are they here or are they in Europe? Are they everywhere?
Jeff: They are everywhere. I have great contacts in the U.S., and I mean contacts from dealers that I might see in a flea market. I have a couple of local folks who run estate sales. One of them is the finest generalist I know. He is so incredibly smart and knowledgeable. I totally trust him. If I ask a question, he tells me what he knows and what he doesn’t know.
Sharon: If he or one of these people that you trust called you up and said, “I have a piece I think you’ll really like. I don’t know anything about it, but I think you’ll really like it,” and maybe they’re far away or you don’t want to go, will you buy it sight unseen?
Jeff: This goes back to what you and I discussed briefly. I think it’s all about the return policy. Yes, I will agree to buy something, but I don’t think it’s sight unseen anymore. They’re naturally going to send me a picture using smartphones. That technology is great, but the pictures don’t always tell the whole story. Someone who’s really honest doesn’t have any fear of taking something back if it doesn’t work for the client. I don’t think there’s anyone I deal with who won’t take a piece back if it’s not quite right for me.
Sharon: It’s interesting you say that. It’s probably true, but I hadn’t thought about it. There probably isn’t anything that’s sight unseen anymore with the internet and everything.
We talked a little bit about receipts. Should we make sure we have the receipt?
Jeff: The rules for everyone are the same. There are a lot of laws in place, mostly federal laws. Some of them are laws that relate specifically to jewelry. There are several pages of regulations, and also there are laws that simply are contract law. Your receipt is your contract. You need to ask that every piece of information is included on the receipt.
Let’s say you’re buying a diamond ring and it’s supposed to be by Cartier. You want to know that it’s 18-karat gold. You want to know what the diamond grade is. You want to know about the color and clarity. I want to be clear that I’m not trying to create an environment that’s very hidebound. We all understand that people do their best to approximate, but they need to be close, let’s say. So, you’re going to want the diamond colors and clarities, and then you’re going to want it to say, “authentic Cartier” or “this ring is by Cartier.” Here’s a little trick: if they say, “This ring is signed Cartier,” that doesn’t mean it has to be made by Cartier.
Sharon: Who is it made by?
Jeff: It could be made by you and me and we got someone to engrave the word “Cartier” on it. Signed Cartier does not mean it is Cartier. It means they are guaranteeing that the word “Cartier” is on the piece. “Authentic” Cartier or “by Cartier” means that it is Cartier. There are quite a number of situations, especially online, where you do often see the phrasing “signed Tiffany,” “signed Cartier,” “signed Van Cleef & Arpels.” Now, they may fully mean that it is, but I’ve seen quite a number of situations where it was clear it wasn’t.
Sharon: You’re asking for a lot; maybe a lot that people don’t put on the receipt normally. Have you had any push back? Were people getting annoyed with you?
Jeff: No, I think this is really simple. At my shop and at shows, I have definitely been asked to include all the information on my tag, which is all the information I’ve mentioned and more. People have said, “I would really like that on the receipt. Could you make sure it’s on there?” I think if you get pushback, then I would decline to buy the piece no matter what. If they’re someone who can’t write that information on a receipt, for me, suddenly, there are alarm bells. Something is wrong. Now, maybe it’s just a person who doesn’t like doing that. That’s possible, and they’re a totally honest person, but if they don’t want to put the information regarding the piece on the receipt, that’s a problem. You have no recourse because your receipt does not state the proper information.
Here’s the deal: that contract is forever. People will tell you you can’t return things. People will tell you, “Oh, that was two years ago. That’s expired.” If it says 10 carats of diamonds and it’s only five carats, you can return it. You can return it tomorrow. You can return it in five years. Your grandchildren can return it in a hundred years. That’s a contract that has to be accurate. It doesn’t matter. It could be tractor parts.
Sharon: It’s easier for you. If I see a piece and I have fallen in love with it—if you want it, you overlook a lot, whereas you can say no to a lot and pick out one where you think the person is trustworthy. Is it easier for you?
Jeff: I think you’re making a good point. I made some notes before we started. Here’s what I wrote about this: this is how I buy, but there are various rules. Let’s just say we’ve discussed them. If I think I should start spouting the law, I remind myself to zip it and just move on. There’s lots and lots to buy. It’s not my job to tell people what the law is. It’s not my job, except on this podcast.
The thing I’m not comfortable with is when someone skirts the law and won’t make a proper contract. If you were buying a house and they refused to get a survey, I would say, “Hey, something’s up.” I think it’s reasonable to ask for a proper receipt, always, and it doesn’t matter whether it’s Walmart or Sotheby’s or any number of famous dealers I can name all over the country. It’s perfectly fine, and anyone who is selling things in an honest way won’t have any problem with that. If it is what they say it is, why not write it? This shouldn’t be any issue. I understand it’s uncomfortable.
Sharon: I’d rather somebody tell me, “I don’t know,” than guess and say, “I don’t know what it is. I don’t what it’s made of,” that sort of thing.
Jeff: That’s a great point. I would much rather people tell me, “I don’t know.” But here’s the thing: the “I don’t know” price should be half of the “I think it’s a sapphire” price, or maybe a quarter. “I don’t know” means the price should be falling, falling, falling. If you say, “Oh, this is a beautiful turquoise necklace,” is it natural turquoise or is it reconstituted? Now, by law, they’re required to tell you. If they say, “I don’t know,” the law then requires you to insist they find out.
Once again, it’s uncomfortable. If they say, “I don’t know,” chances are you really should just walk away. Let’s say this gorgeous turquoise necklace is gold. It’s got all of these stones, and it’s $12,000. Well, $12,000 is a lot in my world. Maybe it’s not that much money to other people, but “I don’t know” doesn’t go together for me.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’m coming from the items I bought when I started getting into jewelry. Now I know a little bit more. For instance, there are people who seem to have a natural affinity for detail I don’t have. They can tell. I’m thinking of a girlfriend who once said, “That’s not an Art Deco. That’s an Edwardian piece.” It was, and I thought it was Art Deco. I thought she was ridiculous.
Jeff: I think it’s amazing when people know. There are lots of people who are so good at that. I think as a buyer, you should—I’ll go back to what I said in the beginning. You find someone who you trust and who’s going to explain to you what you’re buying, and who will rely that on the receipt and who wants to have an ongoing relationship with you. If you have a problem, they will sort that problem out. Look, Jeff Russak at Lawrence Jeffrey is not made of sold gold. He does not have a brain the size of a Volkswagen. We make mistakes. When we make mistakes, we have to fix them. That’s the way it is.
Sharon: I’ve heard the phrase, “Somebody has a dealer’s eye.” Do you think there’s such a thing as a dealer’s eye?
Jeff: I think there is. I think what that refers to is someone who just knows when something is a good deal. I have a customer. When I get a piece I know is a good deal, that we bought well and the retail price is a great price, I tease her and say, “You’re like a hound. You can smell the jewelry, that there’s a deal.” I think that’s totally true, absolutely.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Well, I certainly don’t have that. If a display case says that all the gems or stones inside are certified, what does that mean?
Jeff: That actually doesn’t mean anything at all. It’s meaningless. This is where we need to start being detectives. The question is certified by whom?
Sharon: Well, who can certify them?
Jeff: People often think it’s a government agency, or they think, for instance, that it’s a lab like the GIA, or they think the dealer is certifying. A dealer who’s smart, who’s on the up and up, isn’t going to certify anything. Certifying means you agree that the information is true. Most appraisals, for instance, are very careful to have at the end something that says, “We’ve done our best job to approximate, to use our knowledge to establish what things are,” and then when they say, “I duly sign,” or “I hereby certify,” all they’re certifying is that the signature is theirs. They’re not certifying the information. They’re saying, “We’ve done our best job.” They probably have, and the information is probably correct, but certifying is different.
Like at the GIA, when you study to become a gemologist, they wrap your knuckles with a ruler if you say certificate or certify. They don’t certify things. They produce laboratory reports. It's a report, not a certificate. It doesn’t certify anything. It is a laboratory process they have performed to the best of their abilities, which is pretty darn good.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kristin Beeler
Kristin Beeler joined the faculty of Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design at the University of Dundee, Scotland UK in 2023.
From 2002-2023, she was Professor of Art and Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork at Long Beach City College in the Los Angeles, California area. She is native to the Blue Ridge Mountains of central Appalachia and is a second generation graduate of historically interracial and craft-centered Berea College receiving a BFA in Crafts and Applied Design with a minor in Philosophy (1989). Her Master of Fine Arts in Jewelry from the University of Arizona (1994) was followed later by post graduate studies at Alchemia Jewellery School in Florence, Italy (2011) and Atelier Rudee, Bangkok, Thailand (2013).
Solo exhibitions include Integumentum 2021 at Baltimore Jewelry Center, Baltimore, Maryland, Archive of Rag and Bone at Mesa Contemporary Arts Museum, Phoenix, Arizona (2016) and Beauty and Other Monsters at Velvet da Vinci Gallery, San Fransisco, California (2007).
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com
Transcript:
After two decades as a professor at Long Beach City College, artist and jeweler Kristin Beeler is heading back to school herself at Dundee University in Scotland. Although any international move comes with fear, Kristin has relied on a sense of curiosity to keep pushing her work froward. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why certain artists are drawn to metal; how she tries to create context through her work; and why some of the most important lessons she learned were from submitting her work to competitive exhibitions. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
If you look at Kristin Beeler’s jewelry, she looks like she’s a risk taker, but that’s not really true. She has followed a well-worn path, but she also has risk in her work. She received her master’s and then became a professor of art at Long Beach City College. She teaches both metal arts and jewelry. She is the Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork for Long Beach City College. Welcome back.
Did you have to do a lot of looking to find a school like that in the U.S.?
Kristin: It was a school my mother went to, so I was second generation.
Sharon: Wow! What are your thoughts about metalwork versus jewelry arts? I saw that you did some gloves in Tyvek. It was hard to pin down what you do because it’s very esoteric. It has a lot of meaning. I kept asking, “Why this?”
Kristin: The work I do is more driven by an idea and trying to build a full context for an idea. The jewelry is part of that context. It’s a bit like going to the opera. I love opera, and I love it because it’s a full context. The stage is opera. The music is opera. The singing is opera. The costuming is opera. It is all of those things, and those things come together to produce this one idea. I wouldn’t say my work is theatrical, but I think it has some operatic qualities when it works well. It’s not meant to follow one particular pathway because, as I said, not everything is a piece of jewelry. Some things are meant to manifest through other things, and jewelry is a part of that.
Sharon: I see that you’ve been in a lot of competitions, where your jewelry is judged. Do you have trepidations? I can’t imagine doing anything like that.
Kristin: It’s really hard at first. It’s one of the hardest things to get my students to do because when you do it, the risk of failure is huge. You’re going to be rejected, but it is such good practice. That’s what being an artist is about: trying to find the place where your work fits, and if your work isn’t fitting into the place you want to go and into the trajectory you want, figuring out how to make it go into that trajectory. It makes shifts to what you’re working on.
I haven’t done it in quite a long time; most of what I do now is invitational work, but I do find it interesting to enter competitive exhibitions. It does a couple of things. Usually if I’m applying for a competitive exhibition, it could be because I want to get my work in front of a juror, or it’s in a location where I want to go, where I have friends. Or it’s a theme I like and I find interesting. But I had to go through a period of doing it and becoming O.K. with someone saying no and doing it anyway. When I was in graduate school, I was told, “Be prepared to wallpaper your room with rejection letters. Get rejected as much and as often as you can because it is a skill to build up and not let that stop you.”
Sharon: Are you ever rejected if it’s invitational?
Kristin: If it’s invitational, it’s because they’ve seen my work and they want something in particular.
Sharon: That must have been a big hurdle in the beginning. To be rejected must have been a big hurdle.
Kristin: It probably was. Looking back on it now, it’s funny. I was silly to be so worried about that. I think I was lucky that my work was pretty readily accepted. I think I did quite well. Even going into this new career—I’m basically going into a second career—there are moments when I think, “I don’t know if I can do this. What was I thinking?” and I can go back to those moments previously where I tried to do something where uncertainty was guaranteed, or I didn’t know how it was going to work out. I can say, “Well, I did that, and it worked out O.K.”
Sharon: Did SNAG help you? You were on the board of SNAG. Why don’t you tell us what it is?
Kristin: The Society of North American Goldsmiths is the organization for the field. I have worked with SNAG since 1999 or 1998. That was when I first started volunteering for them. I started working with SNAG because I would go to the conferences at the encouragement of my graduate faculty, and I was kind of terrified. There were a lot of people there whose work I would see in publications or I’d hear about them. I was quite shy, so the easiest thing for me to do was offer to volunteer for something. If I don’t know what to do, I’ll work, so volunteering was a perfect thing to do. It was intuitive.
It wasn’t planned at all, but I met so many interesting people by volunteering at the conferences. They would say, “Oh, would you be able to do this?” and I would say, “Well, yeah,” and then I would meet more interesting people. I don’t know that it was a great expansion time for my work because there are only so many hours in the day. When you’re putting your energy out for one thing, it’s not necessarily going in the other direction. So, I don’t know that I was accomplishing as much in my studio, but I was meeting really, really interesting people and having some really interesting conversations. I think that that was one of the most valuable things about being involved with SNAG, just getting to know the community in a deep way.
I served on the board of SNAG for five years between 2001 and 2005. I’ve had some job with SNAG almost every year since then, some small thing, helping with exhibitions. I have worked with the Diversity, Equity, Access and Inclusion Committee. I have worked with the Educational Endowment Committee. Currently I serve as trustee for the SNAG Educational Endowment Scholarship Trust. That is my primary role with SNAG at this point.
Sharon: Do you recommend it to your students as a way to learn about the field?
Kristin: Always, yeah. That and listening to Jewelry Journey.
Sharon: I don’t know about that. I was thinking about you listening to other people’s opinions. I once heard someone say that they felt they had to know who the artist was before they could wear the piece of jewelry. I just felt like, “Well, is it pretty? Do I like it?” and that sort of thing. That’s why I would be intimidated.
Kristin: It was interesting to humanize all of those things. Often the work can be much richer once you have a better idea of the person who made it. It can alter your perspective on pieces to know who made it. Sometimes you might not want to know, but I think one of the great blessings of this field is that it is full of generous and warmhearted people who are so willing to share what they know.
Sharon: Do you consider yourself one of those people willing to share what you know?
Kristin: I hope to be, yeah.
Sharon: I’m struck by the fact that you say you were shy, because you don’t come across that way at all. Does that present itself in your reluctance in going abroad and when you started teaching? Was that a concern?
Kristin: Yes, I was pathologically shy, but more than that I was curious. I think curiosity trumps those reluctances if you allow it to. Being curious takes you outside of yourself. You can become involved in other people’s stories and other people’s interests. When you change that reflection, then it’s much easier to get to know people and enjoy them. As I said, my go-to was to do some work and find other people who are doing work and just help them. Carrying the load together is always a good way of lifting yourself up as well.
When I started teaching full-time, I spent probably the first several years pretending to be someone who is comfortable in front of a classroom. I don’t know that I was, but I could pretend to be someone who was. I think going to Scotland, now that the challenge is there, it’s exciting and terrifying by turns, but I’m so curious. I always want to know what happens when you do this or what happens when I do this. Pulling into that curiosity is a life raft.
Sharon: Do you have a history with the country? Did your family come from there? Did you visit it a few times?
Kristin: No, I had never been to Scotland before I interviewed, but my family has lived in Appalachia for about 400 years.
Sharon: Where?
Kristin: Appalachia.
Sharon: Oh, 400 years, wow!
Kristin: Yes, so they have been there for a very long time. Many people from that area came from Scotland, England, Wales, Ireland, so Scottish history was something we grew up with because of this strong connection to Scottland and Ireland. The music that was local to where I grew up came straight from Scottland. The local dances, the crafts in particular. Things that had been brought 400 years earlier were still practiced, and a lot of those skills came from Scottland.
Sharon: Do you lie in bed at night, or are you grocery shopping and an idea comes to you and you start on it?
Kristin: For my studio practice?
Sharon: Yeah.
Kristin: There are probably two tracks to that. One is that it’s all a long inquiry that never stops. It‘s one little thing that leads to the next. It doesn’t have a beginning or an end. It’s kind of all in the middle and ideas roll in one direction or another. Pieces may not finish, but I’m committed to finishing bodies of work. I’m really terrible about it, actually. In terms of solutions—I think maybe what you’re asking about is solutions to particular problems—those are things that revolve as well. Sometimes I’ll see something, or I’ll be making something that doesn’t make sense in the moment, but I’ll just hold onto it. It’s like I’m looking for an answer to a problem. It’s like, “Oh, there it is in this book or in this drawer of samples I made.” If I waited for ideas to come to me, I’d be waiting a really long time. I have to go out and hunt for them. They’re constantly generating, but the solutions to problems plug in at different locations on a very long timeline.
Sharon: For instance, on some of the projects, whether you’re invited or you decide to enter a competitive situation, once that’s done, do you say, “O.K., that’s nice. That’s done. Now, I’m on to the next thing,” or is it done?
Kristin: These pieces often cycle in and out. Unless a piece is purchased, they all belong to this collection of pieces that are shown in different iterations. For group exhibitions, there may be between two and four pieces that are shown together, but for solo exhibitions, there’s a larger body of work. Every time I show that body of work, it may have different pieces in that collection that are shown.
Sharon: What happened to the gloves that are made of Tyvek? How did you come up with the idea of Tyvek?
Kristin: Oh, I love Tyvek. It is such a fun material. Certain materials just didn’t appeal to me, and I have all of these Tyvek mailers. I would get things in the mail, and they come in those Tyvek mailers. I saved all these mailers for years and thought, “I’m going to do something with them.” Then I realized you could just buy it. I had kept it because it has this beautiful, papery, silky quality to it which is really nice. It’s virtually indestructible until it’s not, so it has this strength but this vulnerability as well. I like that about it.
From time to time, I have made gloves over the years because I think they’re interesting objects. There’s such a strong relationship to the body and what we do with our hands. Those gloves in particular were designed with this young woman in mind who had this scarf. I already said I love opera, so having these opera-length gloves, I used a vintage pattern for that. I had her scarf embroidered on these very delicate but strong gloves that were kind of ethereal. That was perfect for my purpose.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I saw the pictures, but I wasn’t sure what it was. That’s very interesting. Thank you very much for being with us today. Good luck in Scotland. We’ll be reading about you.
Kristin: Thank you so much, Sharon. This was so fun.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kristin Beeler
Kristin Beeler joined the faculty of Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art and Design at the University of Dundee, Scotland UK in 2023.
From 2002-2023, she was Professor of Art and Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork at Long Beach City College in the Los Angeles, California area. She is native to the Blue Ridge Mountains of central Appalachia and is a second generation graduate of historically interracial and craft-centered Berea College receiving a BFA in Crafts and Applied Design with a minor in Philosophy (1989). Her Master of Fine Arts in Jewelry from the University of Arizona (1994) was followed later by post graduate studies at Alchemia Jewellery School in Florence, Italy (2011) and Atelier Rudee, Bangkok, Thailand (2013).
Solo exhibitions include Integumentum 2021 at Baltimore Jewelry Center, Baltimore, Maryland, Archive of Rag and Bone at Mesa Contemporary Arts Museum, Phoenix, Arizona (2016) and Beauty and Other Monsters at Velvet da Vinci Gallery, San Fransisco, California (2007).
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com
Transcript:
After two decades as a professor at Long Beach City College, artist and jeweler Kristin Beeler is heading back to school herself at Dundee University in Scotland. Although any international move comes with fear, Kristin has relied on a sense of curiosity to keep pushing her work froward. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why certain artists are drawn to metal; how she tries to create context through her work; and why some of the most important lessons she learned were from submitting her work to competitive exhibitions. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week. If you look at Kristin Beeler’s jewelry, she looks like she’s a risk taker, but that’s not really true. She has followed a well-worn path, but she also has risk in her work. She received her master’s and then became a professor of art at Long Beach City College. She teaches both metal arts and jewelry. She is the Coordinator of Jewelry and Metalwork for Long Beach City College. She has been at the college for at least seven years, and this is her last term there.
She is not afraid to put herself and her work out there, as evidenced by the many exhibitions and jury situations she has been in. She’s not afraid for others to judge her work, but her biggest risk is upcoming. That is to be a lecturer in the metal arts department at the University of Dundee in Scotland. We’ll hear more about this today. Kristin, I’m glad to have you on the podcast.
Kristin: I’m so glad to be here, Sharon. Thank you.
Sharon: It’s great to have you. First, what are your trepidations about going across the world?
Kristin: It is an adventure for sure. I’ve actually been at Long Beach City College for 21 years. This was my 21st year, so it’s been quite an adventure. It’s been an amazing time to spend with the students and an impressive faculty at the school. It’s been an incredible privilege, and it’s also given me the opportunity to develop a really strong program. Our jewelry entrepreneurship program is only a few years old, but we’ve been able to grow exponentially because of it.
It’s interesting going to Scotland. I’ll be joining the faculty of Duncan of Jordanstone College of Art & Design and the Jewelry and Metal Design Program. It’s an amazing faculty there. They’re one of the top design schools in the U.K. They have an amazing track record, and the faculty has also been working together for a long time. Here, I know where the funders are. I know where the suppliers are. I know where the galleries are. There, it’s all going to be new. I don’t know the funders. I don’t know the suppliers. I don’t know the metrics well enough. All these things are going to be so sparkly and new, so I hope they’re patient with me.
Sharon: Did they come to you, or did you go to them?
Kristin: It’s an interesting story. I have put quite a lot of time into the program at Long Beach City College. As I said, it had grown exponentially, and a lot of that growth happened during the pandemic. There was a lot of extra work that had to be done, and last fall, I took a term off to recover. I was a bit worn out. I was really burned out. So, I took a term off and had some time to think about what I wanted to do with myself after teaching for 20 years. I realized that what I wanted to do was go back to school. I was a bit jealous of my students because they were having such a good time. I’d always wanted to get a Ph.D., so I started talking to programs in the U.K. and EU because there are no practice-based Ph.D.s in our field in the U.S. I was looking for programs that I might be able to start either while I was still teaching and going into semi-retirement or after I retired.
I had had a wonderful conversation with Sandra Wilson at the University of Dundee. They have a wonderful Ph.D. program in jewelry. There are a number of programs they have practice-based Ph.D.s in, and I had a wonderful conversation with her. She was very supportive. I was getting ready to start putting together an application when they posted a full-time lecturer research position, so I thought, “Well, maybe I’ll try that.” I applied for the position and didn’t hear anything back for quite a long time. The university processes have their own pace. I think it was a Friday when I got an email saying, “Can you come and interview next Thursday?” There wasn’t even time to ask if I could do a Zoom interview. I talked to my family, and they said, “Just go.” I left on Tuesday, interviewed on Thursday, and they made their first offer on Friday and I accepted it. It was serendipitous that I happened to be looking at Sandra Wilson’s Instagram. I’d go for days and weeks, months without looking at Instagram, and I happened to look on the right day and see the post about the position opening. Now I’m surrounded by packing boxes.
Sharon: Wow! When you say a practice-based Ph.D. or a practice applied Ph.D., what does that mean and how is it different?
Kristin: Normally we think of Ph.D.s as being text-based. You present a dissertation that is all textual, and you have a verbal defense of the Ph.D. A practice-based Ph.D. can have other formats. Mine will likely have a text component, but also the practice, the work we do in the studio is part of the work for the Ph.D. That is a huge portion of the research. It requires very particular methodologies for approaching that research, but it’s an approach that isn’t very common in the U.S. It’s much more common in the EU, U.K., Australia. I can’t remember if there are any in Asia, but it’s not found that much in the U.S., a practice-based Ph.D.
Sharon: Yeah, you think of a Ph.D., at least the way I know it from the U.S., as “piled higher and deeper.” You’re going to be in a big city. It’s mostly what happens.
Kristin: It’s a wonderful acknowledgement of the actual work and contribution that artists make as opposed to, “Anybody can do that.” When you start to follow a line of inquiry to a very deep level, it allows so much more to unfold. You are able to connect with people who are doing similar work in different fields. I will be talking to people in the life sciences department. They have one of the top life sciences departments in the U.K., so I’ll be able to work with them to do some overlap. It provides some really interesting opportunities for study, which I’m very excited about.
Sharon: How long would it be if you walked in the door and were accepted? How long of a program is it?
Kristin: It’s difficult to say. Three to five years would be normal, I think. As I’m teaching, it’s actually a part of my job to do that research. I’d be similar to someone who’s in the lab doing research for a research lecture. So, I don’t know how long. We’ll see.
Sharon: I had trouble pinning it down because you’re described as professor of metal arts and jewelry arts, applied design and an artist, so I didn’t know. What are you, in a sense?
Kristin: I would hate to have to pick one of those things. We’re very multilayered creatures, aren’t we? I love making tacos, but I’m not someone who only makes tacos. I think that as makers we have our preferences, but just depending on what someone’s interests, inclinations or curiosities are. I primarily work in jewelry because it is a method of approach, a method of inquiry, but what is interesting to me is the relationship to the body, and I particularly enjoy the history of it, its attachments. It has a lot of layering that I find really interesting, but when I get bored or stuck on a problem, I’ll make a garment or I’ll do drawings. It’s not part of my practice to only do one thing. Not everything is a piece of jewelry, even though that’s what I am primarily known for.
Sharon: How does that fit with metal arts?
Kristin: My training is in metal. Understanding both the properties and the way metal works is an interesting challenge. It’s what I teach the most; working with metal and how to master it and develop skill bases. In my own practice, metal is a part that is foundational, but not complete.
Sharon: Do you see a difference in the way the mind works for the students who are more interested in jewelry versus those who are interested in metal? For instance, how do you differentiate? Is there a way the mind works that’s drawn to metal versus a different mind for somebody drawn to jewelry arts or a different area?
Kristin: A teacher that I had a long time ago said, “People who are drawn to metal are people that like a little pushback. They like a little resistance.” Metal has its own logic, and you have to understand and follow that logic. Clay, for example, has a lot of process. It’s very technology driven, but it also can be very intuitive. Painting can be very intuitive. You can go backwards and forwards. With jewelry, there’s a massive skill base that is required technically, so the students who like the idea of working with metal in particular love that challenge. They are turned on by that challenge. They light up when something goes right, and sometimes they even light up when things go wrong because now they have more information.
For students who are attracted specifically to jewelry, often that is a gateway. They’re attracted to the idea of jewelry. Sometimes they’re attracted to the idea of being able to actually make a living in the arts. One of the important things that jewelry has to offer is that you can actually support yourself with your design and art skills. Sometimes, once they get to know the properties of working with metal, they may love it or they may not. Often, they do. Often, they’re really compelled by it. Sometimes they have to find their own way to work with materials that have more flexibility in the processing. You’re right. They are different mindsets in that way.
Sharon: It seems like there would be.
Kristin: You’re absolutely right.
Sharon: You’ve been there for 21 years at the college. Did you pick up your master’s and your Ph.D. while you were teaching, even though some of it’s an applied Ph.D.?
Kristin: I will be starting my Ph.D. in Scotland. That’s part of that plan. I did my Master of Fine Arts at the University of Arizona. That program has closed now. Michael Croft was my primary graduate advisor. Michael is a very gifted educator, fierce when we were in graduate school, but incredibly knowledgeable. He’s not someone whose work you’re going to hear a ton about because he doesn’t aim for the spotlight. He’s a quiet guy, but he made a name for himself in the 70s. He's a very highly respected jeweler and educator.
His partner is Eleanor Moty, who you may know of. Eleanor Moty was a consistent presence. Even though she was at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she was a consistent presence in Tucson, where our graduate program was, so she had an influence there. Arizona at the time had four graduate programs in jewelry and metalwork. There was a very strong jewelry and metalwork community in Arizona up until the early 2000s. All of those have either changed or closed in the meantime. So, my inculturation to the jewelry and metalwork community was formed inside, literally, a crucible of the desert of Arizona. There was a very strong community.
In some ways, my undergraduate education was equally or possibly even more formative than my graduate education. I went to Berea College in Berea, Kentucky. It was a small, private, liberal arts college that is one of the very few work colleges in the U.S. That means every student who goes there works for the school and, in exchange, pays little or no tuition. It is one of the top schools in that region, particularly in the south. It’s an amazing place.
There are a couple of things about it. It was founded by abolitionists in 1856 and since that time has had a history of coeducation. It was the first coeducational college in the south. Since that time, that has been its mission: to educate everyone equally. It has also been one of the very few schools that has its own crafts program. The students actually work in college-run craft industries. There is a huge ceramics industry; there’s a huge weaving industry. They closed the jewelry industry right before I got there. The work is made by students, produced by the school and sold by the school, and it’s sold nationally. It has a new designer residence program. Stephen Burks has been the first designer in residence. He is connected to Berea through Design Within Reach and a chair manufacturing company—
Sharon: Herman Miller.
Kristin: Herman Miller, thank you. The program has a tremendous amount of reach, and that program had a huge influence on how I think about craft and community.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Anna Johnson
Anna Johnson is a studio artist, craftswoman and educator residing in Asheville, NC. At a very young age she stumbled upon jewelry making and from then on it became not only her creative outlet, but a space of untampered personal expression that guided her through her educational, professional, and personal development. Equally taken by the depths of the natural world, organic elements began to be her main source of inspiration as her language in jewelry developed.
Today her work revolves around the question of where and why our culture perceives value by creating jewelry - often used to display worth, lineage, cultural hierarchy, believe affiliations, etc - with raw elements from directly from the natural world, unique and unpretentiously beautiful, in efforts of providing a fresh line of visual communication, a display of acknowledgment, consciousness, and in alliance with our natural world.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com
Transcript:
Most people who are drawn to Anna Johnson’s jewelry for the first time have no idea it’s made from leaves, animal bones and other items from nature—and that’s exactly what Anna wants. Adapting techniques to highlight natural materials, she hopes that her jewelry will make people reconsider the world around us. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what attracts her to delicate materials and how she works with them; how she defines jewelry; and why she considers herself an artist first. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Anna Johnson’s jewelry is very different. It’s made of the bones of small creatures—for example, the mandibles of small reptiles—mixed with gems. You’re so taken with the designs that you don’t even realize what they’re made of. Welcome back.
So, you came in with the idea that the artistry was metalsmithing and jewelry, but metalsmithing brought you to jewelry, and that was all part of the artistry. Am I understanding that correctly?
Anna: Sometimes it’s hard for me to articulate because one, I do feel like my work is a bit vague, so I communicate and it’s easier to read through that. The thing that probably got me to jewelry was this fascination and curiosity with the small. It just happened to be this perfect storm of, “Oh, I want to make small, detailed things that highlight the things I am fascinated with.” At the time when I was going to school, it was like, “O.K., if I want to make small metals, it’s got to be jewelry,” but I also love jewelry. In a weird way it’s a conflict, because I’m not saying that I never liked jewelry—because I do.
I love making jewelry, and it’s so important to make jewelry wearable. If it’s going to be jewelry, then it’s very important for it to make you feel good, make you feel right, make you feel good about yourself, make you feel good when you’re wearing it. In order for it to be jewelry, it does need to, in my opinion, fit into the framework of being wearable. You see big art pieces which are amazing but maybe not so wearable. Sometimes that’s intentional and makes sense with the concept of the piece. Other times, it confuses me with the way I think about jewelry. Why jewelry then? If it’s not going to proudly interact with the body, then is it jewelry? I don’t know.
Sharon: I understand that with a lot of jewelry. I’m sort of lost at where the bones and the plants came into place with the jewelry.
Anna: Those are my inspirations. Before coming into it, when you’re developing your creative voice, hopefully you grow in your medium. Especially with artists and craftspeople, people that are really connected to what they do—and I think it really works as a language for me. I was able to delve in and learn and explore in my own way. I had a love of plants and animals and stones, and I was interested in the shapes and forms across them. As I continued to learn jewelry—or metalsmithing, really—and I continued to learn that craft, I realized how they had come together. That was amazing for me, because I could cast the plants with the bones, and they were so beautiful. I was doing a lot of fragile, little elements, but to me it was so important. It was important enough for me to incorporate them into the work. They were so beautiful I wanted to include this in my pieces.
Then I had to troubleshoot to actually make it wearable and sturdy, so I added a whole other element to my work, and that was with the stones. I use a lot of raw minerals that would be more fragile, so I had to figure out how to stabilize them and back them in such a way where I felt comfortable putting them into the jewelry pieces. That became a big part of my work, and I think that also shaped it. I was constantly getting hit with different things that could have made me be like, “Oh, I just can’t include this in the jewelry.” It would be so beautiful to me that I felt like there must be a way. What could that be? It forced me to think outside of the box.
For example, if I had a casting of a leaf that didn’t come out all the way, and it had really delicate edges or something like that, that would normally be too fragile to wear on the body. They might get caught on clothing or something. I had to figure out a way to strengthen it to reinforce it. Then, with the materials I was using, I could set a possum tooth and do some stone settings, and those could create more structure to the piece to make it wearable. I had all these “aha” moments of realizing how much more interesting it would be. It might be more complicated for me in the beginning, but it was so worth that extra effort to get to the end result. The end result had a lot more weight and was more successful and different. That’s how I carved out a voice.
Sharon: Did you have to explain this to gallery owners and people when you exhibited? Now, today, do you have to?
Anna: Yeah, it takes a little bit of both. I feel fortunate that I think my work will resonate with a lot of people, and it has resonated with people who look at it. It will strike them in some way that initially grabs them. Sometimes, if they don’t realize what the materials are at first, they might get a sense of it by taking a closer look. Then I’m like, “Oh, you really like that piece. Well, this is a mandible, and this is a mineral that you don’t see that often. I’ve supported it to make it wearable. Then this is the bud of a daylily.”
I hope—and so far, it seems like this is the case—that the work speaks on its own, but it doesn’t need the explanation to make it speak. I think that’s a thing with art. It’s when it hits someone at their core. Especially if you’re thinking about social media and how everyone is getting constant simulation, if you’re walking down the street and there’s lots of chaos and a mural makes you stop and say “Whoa,” what is it? If you’re scrolling on Instagram and you see a piece of jewelry or a piece of ceramic, what is it that makes you stop on something and take a closer look? That’s when the piece itself speaks more than whatever the words are behind it. I’m not saying that the words aren’t important, but—
Sharon: No, I think that’s what I was saying, in that the design attracts you first. I still don’t know what the parts of the things I have are made from. You didn’t have to explain them.
Anna: I remember a couple of the pieces. You’ll have to send me a photo so I can tell you all the bits and pieces that are in them.
Sharon: I like the design.
Anna: Yeah, exactly.
Sharon: Is that what you mean by artistry?
Anna: Yes. You weren’t drawn to it because you were like, “Oh, there are bones and plants in there.” It was the overall composition. It’s just that the composition is made up of all these really beautiful things that exist in nature. I just pulled them out of context and put them in this form. We might walk by these things every day, and we don’t have the time to sit and contemplate and really take in the beauty that’s all around us. I think my work is repackaging it in a way that, consciously or unconsciously, it’s a connection to the natural world around us.
Sharon: This may be a silly question, but do you think that, if one of the little snakes or something that was alive saw that you incorporated their jaw and put a pearl next to it, they would appreciate that? Do you think they would like that?
Anna: I do. That’s another thing. It’s something that has been prevalent since the beginning of humankind and across so many cultures, and that’s honoring ancestors or animals. It’s really important to me that these are things I have found or people I know have found, so I can feel confident that they weren’t killed or anything for their bones. I need to find the things in nature so I know where they come from or that they came from someone who understands and appreciates that sentiment.
A lot of times, I’ll bury things. If I find something, I’ll bury it and let it continue its lifecycle, which I think is just as important. I’m pulling from things in nature, but it is number one that I’m doing it with the most respect for these different elements and the environment and sustainability. I feel like it’s convoluted, and I don’t think anyone who is creating objects and using resources can actually say they’re sustainable, but it’s doing as much as I can with as much respect as I can to move toward that as much as possible. At the point when I’m using it in my work, it’s completed; it has cycled in a lot of ways. With the tissue and everything, its energy has been able to transfer. Then I can take these things and give those another life as well. All that is really important. I hope they would appreciate it.
Sharon: To me, it’s nice. If the animal or the blade of grass knew what was happening to it after it died, it would be happy.
Anna: Yes. I also think there’s a disconnect. It’s so easy to disconnect from the natural world and not see these things that are living around us. You see a snake or something, and people are like, “I don’t know,” and get freaked out by it, but that snake is just living its life. We are living our lives too, and they probably see us and are thinking the same thing about us, acting more in defense. Their reaction is probably much more reasonable than our reaction. Another part of it is that it shifts a bit. Even if someone is wearing vertebrae earrings, there is some part of them that’s connected to that. They’ve looked at that. They’ve obviously seen something in that as valuable, which is why they’ve purchased the earrings and are wearing them. With that, maybe they’re able to show a little more appreciation.
It’s my way of creating this connection wherever I can. Songbirds are really protected, which is amazing, so I think we appreciate birds. There are great resources so you can identify bird sounds, and because of that, we’re like, “Oh, they’re beautiful. They’re wonderful,” and you’re not freaking out when you see a robin in a tree. In a way, it’s by identifying something. If there’s more understanding for things, then we empathize more. I’m not saying my work is doing that in any major way, but I do think it’s an interesting way of subtly crossing little wires, giving things a little more context, and that makes us naturally empathize. We name things. If you find something, you should name it. Say you were to get a stray kitten. If you’re like, “Oh, I’m going to call you Sebastian,” now you’ve become attached to it. I think there’s something in that. It’s like, “O.K., we’ve identified it,” and then, “Oh, this is beautiful. I’ll pay money for this, and a little more to protect it.”
Sharon: Anna, thank you very much for explaining this. It’s not easy to explain. It gives me a little more appreciation for what I have. Thank you very much.
Anna: Thanks for asking me. Sometimes I don’t know if I break it down in the best way, because I feel like there’s a lot of little things going on, and because I am really passionate about what I do with the materials I use. So, sometimes it’s hard to articulate that clearly, but I appreciate the chance to get to do that.
Sharon: Thank you very much. It’s greatly, greatly appreciated.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Anna Johnson
Anna Johnson is a studio artist, craftswoman and educator residing in Asheville, NC. At a very young age she stumbled upon jewelry making and from then on it became not only her creative outlet, but a space of untampered personal expression that guided her through her educational, professional, and personal development. Equally taken by the depths of the natural world, organic elements began to be her main source of inspiration as her language in jewelry developed.
Today her work revolves around the question of where and why our culture perceives value by creating jewelry - often used to display worth, lineage, cultural hierarchy, believe affiliations, etc - with raw elements from directly from the natural world, unique and unpretentiously beautiful, in efforts of providing a fresh line of visual communication, a display of acknowledgment, consciousness, and in alliance with our natural world.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryjourney.com
Transcript:
Most people who are drawn to Anna Johnson’s jewelry for the first time have no idea it’s made from leaves, animal bones and other items from nature—and that’s exactly what Anna wants. Adapting techniques to highlight natural materials, she hopes that her jewelry will make people reconsider the world around us. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what attracts her to delicate materials and how she works with them; how she defines jewelry; and why she considers herself an artist first. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Anna Johnson’s jewelry is very different. It’s made of the bones of small creatures—for example, the mandibles of small reptiles—mixed with gems. You’re so taken with the designs that you don’t even realize what they’re made of. That’s exactly what happened to me. I loved the earrings I saw, and I have several pairs, but I didn’t realize they were made of different parts of animals until a jeweler said to me, “Oh, look what these are made of.” I didn’t even realize it.
Anna is a city girl who grew up in Appalachia and went to college in Boone. She’s won several international awards and has been exhibited in a lot of different galleries, but she’ll tell us all about that. Anna, maybe you can tell us. I know with Covid, it must have been really hard for you. Can you tell us about how you came to work with all these animal parts?
Anna: First, thank you so much for having me, Sharon. I’m so excited to have the opportunity to chat with you again. I’ve been working with lots of different elements from nature, and those have really spoken to the development of my body of work. I think of all the little bones in the same way I think of plants and the gems and minerals I use in my pieces. In looking at nature, the animals and their lifecycles, which would include the bones, are equally important to highlight. They’re also so beautiful and interesting in their shapes and textures and all of those things. The bones are also durable, especially when you pull the idea of taboo off of them. I feel like a lot of times when bones are used, they’re used in the context of the taboo or the macabre. I’m trying to take the focus away from that and put them in the same context of how I use plants and minerals, which are elements that you see highlighted and recognized as being beautiful more regularly. It’s leveling the playing field a little bit, if that makes sense.
Sharon: It makes a lot of sense. From what I understand or what I’ve seen, all of it is one of a kind, right? It’s not production.
Anna: I do have a body of limited-edition pieces I can repeat. Those are things I would be able to multiply. For example, I have a collection, my serpentine collection, and that whole collection was born from this little scientific specimen a friend of mine found in an abandoned high school in Boone, North Carolina, which is where I went to college at Appalachian State University. She had gone in and found all these specimen jars. There was a crawfish and hermit crabs. One of them had this perfectly coiled little snake. It was just incredible. She gave it to me, and I cast it because I couldn’t know if I wanted to have an infinite supply of tiny snakes. One, I have a great respect for snakes, and two, when do you come across an item like that? I was able to take a mold of the original casting and make multiples. Because of that, I was able to develop a limited-edition line of the serpentine collection. But for the most part, my work is one-of-a-kind pieces.
Sharon: That’s what I thought. You’re in a lot of different galleries, right?
Anna: Yes.
Sharon: I first saw you in Mora Gallery, but looking at your website, I see you’re in a lot of different galleries I’ve never heard of. Maybe you could tell us.
Anna: I’m in Mora Contemporary Jewelry in Asheville. I’m in Hecho a Mano, which is located in Santa Fe. I’m in the gallery shop at the Metal Museum located in Memphis, and I’m in Galleria Alice Floriano located in Brazil.
Sharon: Are you a distributor? Do you go to these places, or do they come to you?
Anna: These were places that came to me. I used to show at a lot more galleries, but because of how I produce and how I work, I can’t produce as quickly. So, I had to limit the amount of places because if I show somewhere, I want to have a strong, full collection of work there. The galleries I work with now are places where I value the relationship I have with the staff and where I know they want to know my work and share that with the consumers. It’s enabled me to focus on them and create that relationship. Because I make my living off of it, it’s important that I’m working with places that are going to actually connect the work with the clients. I really like the places I work with.
Sharon: What did you do during Covid? If you’re doing one-of-a-kind, did you line them up and hold them in your studio and then release them?
Anna: Somewhat. Covid was a funny time. It’s interesting, especially talking to creative people and people in general. Covid affected everyone in a bunch of different ways. Talking to different artists, I heard a lot of folks that dove in and thrived during that time and were able to be really creative. Unfortunately, it really shut me down. I think the brain is such an interesting thing. I heard it described this way: think of it as though you’re trying to sip through a straw, and stress and anxiety start to close that off. The creativity is what you’re trying to get through that straw, and all of a sudden it’s constricted. It’s funny. It’s weird, because I would have never thought it would have affected me in that way.
In a lot of ways, when everything was happening at the beginning, I was trying to find the positive in it and thinking that I was going to have this time I wanted. I could go in without having as many deadlines and having to focus on producing rather than the artistic and creative side of it. I was like, “O.K., this will be great.” Except that it shut that down for me. It was a struggle, but it was interesting. I think I was creative in different ways, but not necessarily where I normally expressed it. There was a lot of gardening. It was such a weird time, and I wish I could say I was able to go in and just produce, but that wasn’t the case for me. I feel like after that, I was with a lot of people also in that boat, trying to regroup and reprioritize and feel grounded again. I feel like it put a lot of things in perspective. Yeah, it was a weird time.
Sharon: When you talk about reprioritizing, did you say that gardening was more important than jewelry making?
Anna: No, because I wanted it. I would go in my studio and try. It’s just that things weren’t flowing the way they normally would. It was really frustrating, having to force something that normally flowed pretty well. Another thing was the structure of the business. I’m running a business as a creative person and having to do the business side of it, but also the business is based off my passion and that spirit and how much I believe in what I create. I kind of lost my train of thought. I think the gardening thing came in with things that I didn’t have time for before. Then when I started doing it, I really dove into that.
Another reason was that it was very much in the creative vein and still feeding the work. Because I do cast a lot of plants, I was able to focus on getting out of the studio and looking at different plants. A lot of plants I grow I am actually able to cast. I think it brings it full circle, that I can be working in my studio but also be outside. Examining and cultivating plants is also cultivating my work, in a sense.
Sharon: How did you come to the fact that you like plants and animals so much? Your videos and your website show you’re looking for these things. How did this come to you?
Anna: I think it’s just in me. As a small child, we would come up to the mountains a lot and go hiking, and I think it sparked a lot of my imagination. Actually, the other day, I was going on a hike in this area that I specifically remembered going to when I was a child. If you’re hiking, sometimes there are little offshoots; they might be little deer trails. I called them bunny trails. I would always want to go down them, and I appreciate my parents for being really tolerant of letting me follow my imagination, which in that sense would be following a little bunny trail. It was like, “Ooh, what’s going to be there?”
I remember this one trail I went on. I was walking, and I specifically remember following a little trail. It was a rock face, and I remember it being filled with tiny, little garnets. It very well could have been, because there are garnets found in this area. It was so magical. Of course, I loved hiking to the big landscapes and waterfalls and all that stuff, but I was really engaged with the tiny, little elements and animals. That was something I always liked. I just loved animals.
I was talking with one of my old assistants a couple of years ago. I told her this story, and she looked at me like, “Well, this makes sense of what you do.” This was probably in early elementary school. It was kindergarten, I think. It could have even been before that. There was a little baby robin that had fallen out of the nest, and my sister and I found it. It was in my backyard, and we took it in and were feeding it. You have to feed baby birds constantly, and my mom was helping. The bird stayed alive through the week, but then my sister and I both went to spend the night at friends’ houses. When we came back, the bird was not in good shape and ended up passing away. We buried it in my backyard.
I had three pet snakes when I was little. We would find lizards and frogs and all these little things. Sometimes we would keep them, and sometimes we would bring them to the nature center. Anyway, we buried this little bird. Some of my best neighborhood friends down the street were at the beach. When they came back, they had missed the baby bird, but I wanted to show Hannah, my neighbor. So, not understanding, I was like, “I’ll just show you,” and I started to dig up the bird. My dad comes and sees it, and he’s like, “Oh no,” and stops me. I just didn’t understand. Luckily, I didn’t open it because I probably would have been mortified, but it was interesting at that point.
I wonder if that had an effect in some way on what I make. At that point, there was this innocence of not understanding the separation between life and death and what’s acceptable and what’s not acceptable. There are these little events in people’s lives that might tick them or might not. Aside from that, I always had this fascination and this really strong imagination when it came to looking at these elements.
Sharon: So that’s how you got interested. Coming from a city girl aspect, were you afraid to touch some of these things or pick them up or look at them?
Anna: Going back to the snake thing, I was little; I just loved them. Now I don’t love them quite as much. I don’t seek out holding them, but I still have a tremendous amount of respect for these different animals. My mom was and still is a wonderful gardener. I used to go out and help her with gardening. There were worms in the yard, and I’m like, “Hooray!” I would get so excited about these different elements.
For some reason, it didn’t dawn on me to be grossed out or scared of those things. I just embraced that. My grandfather also always had a big vegetable garden, and I would be out there helping him. I think there was this fascination in watching the plants grow. Seeing this cycle really resonated with me. l never lost that. That fascination stuck with me, and I found this way to not only express and continue that curiosity, but also share it with others so people can be like, “Oh yeah, that is amazing. That’s not gross.” I feel fortunate that I found what I consider a gift. Hopefully I can share that excitement with other people in my work.
Sharon: What led you to incorporate it into jewelry?
Anna: That was another love as a small child. That’s something that always stuck with me. I’ve loved doing things with my hands ever since I was a small child, and jewelry was one of the first things that landed. I think it was because I could, going back to what I said before, enjoy focusing on these teeny, tiny little objects. I first started with macramé, little friendship bracelets, very simple things. Then I went to a bead store. At some point in elementary school, my brain exploded with the possibilities and all of these tiny, little curios that were filling space and how I could put them together.
I always liked to pick up different mediums. I went through an origami phase. I was playing with sewing, but jewelry always popped back up. It continued to challenge me and intrigue me. I could always make things that were different, which was exciting. There were textures and colors. It was engaging for me as a child, through adolescence and into adulthood.
Sharon: First of all, I want to know about Boone College. Were your professors or teachers supportive or understanding about what you wanted to do?
Anna: I went to Appalachian State University through their metals program. I went into the program of studio art knowing I was there to go into the metals program. I knew that coming into it. It’s in the Appalachian Mountains, so because of the area, it makes sense that I was pulling from nature for subject matter. So were other people in the class. I think if people are going to that school, they’re probably there in part because they love the outdoors.
Margaret Yaukey was my metals professor until she went on sabbatical. My senior year, Angela Bubash was my professor. I was very lucky to have had both of them. They were really supportive. The first casting class I took was when I discovered casting plants. It was so exciting because all of a sudden, I could take these plants I loved and actually put them into jewelry. Otherwise, they wouldn’t hold up; they’re not permanent. This was the amazing alchemy of turning plants into metal. That was so exciting.
Sharon: You are described in different places as an artist, a metalsmith and a jeweler. I didn’t understand how the artistry came in. What do you consider yourself?
Anna: I love this question, especially because I’m at a point right now where I’m looking at that a lot. The first thing I consider myself wholeheartedly is an artist. I came to that because I really consider art an expression. To me, it’s a language. It’s also a space for me to feel innovative, even if I’m working within a medium. So, because it’s such a form of expression to me, I consider myself an artist.
Again, I always like the little, tiny, small things. I love jewelry, and I am a jeweler for sure. I make jewelry, but I didn’t come to it to be a jeweler necessarily. I think it was the fascination of focusing on this small scale. I was also into miniatures and collections and things like that. I was attracted to that, so jewelry made sense because it’s the idea of little things that don’t have a function. They’re little tchotchkes. I feel like it doesn’t get enough credit for the potential it can hold, but jewelry has this innate sense of preciousness. I also have always loved jewelry. I always wear jewelry, so it was enjoyable for me to make something I could actually put on my body and bring out into the world.
I think jewelry is also interesting because it’s a craft. It’s considered a functional object, but it’s not functional in the same way that a cup is. It doesn’t serve a utilitarian purpose necessarily. It’s site-specific, which seems like that’s the function of it to me, but so is sculpture. If it’s a sculpture that’s meant to live outdoors, you have to accommodate the space it’s going into. With jewelry, it’s site-specific, but it can still be artistic and sculptural.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Heidi Lowe
Heidi Lowe owns and operates her own gallery, Heidi Lowe Gallery, where she teaches, makes jewelry and shows her work and other artists. She received her BFA in Metals and Jewelry from Maine College of Art in Portland, Maine. A year later she went to graduate school at the State University of New York, New Paltz where she earned her MFA. Her next steps lead her to NYC where her gallery experience began as an assistant to the director at a prominent contemporary art gallery in Chelsea.
After her time in New York, Lowe moved back to Delaware 2006 and opened Heidi Lowe Gallery which exhibits contemporary art jewelry. The gallery also functions as a teaching and studio space. The jewelry that she creates draws on intuition, nature and the history of metalsmithing. Her work is shown within her gallery as well as in numerous exhibitions at other galleries in the United States. Lowe also taught jewelry design as an adjunct professor at Towson University for eight years and currently teaches workshops at colleges and craft centers around the country. She is also a certified business and life coach for creative entrepreneurs and students throughout the US and Canada.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Links:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript
Heidi Lowe may be the owner of a jewelry gallery, but that doesn't mean she’s your average gallerist. Known for her traveling pop-up sale Earrings Galore, Heidi is passionate about introducing collectors to art jewelry and pushing artists to the next level—and she’s willing to take risks to do it. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the inspiration behind Earrings Galore; how she balances managing Heidi Lowe Gallery with making her own jewelry; and what she looks for when choosing new artists. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
My guest today is Heidi Lowe, founder of Heidi Lowe Gallery. If you ever thought you needed a guide to show you the ropes, either for making a piece of jewelry or helping with your own jewelry business, you’ve come to the right place with Heidi Lowe and her gallery. Welcome back.
You’re known for your rings and your wedding bands. Can you read a couple when they come in? Can you tell what they’re looking for?
Heidi: We do it a few different ways. We have a wedding ring class where they can come and make their own wedding rings. That’s just bands. It’s called Lovely Rings by Hand. These are couples from all over. It’s usually the East Coast, but sometimes they come from farther. It’s just me and the couple, and they come into the studio and physically make their rings out of white gold, yellow gold, rose gold. Then they leave with their rings. That is such a special day. It’s lovely. It’s so much fun, and they’re ecstatic when they leave.
We also do a lot of commissions. I’ll meet with somebody, and it’s like a poem. I think of it as poetry. I ask for three words about the meaning of the ring or the person they’re making it for or the next chapter, whatever it is they’re symbolizing. I ask for three words about that, and then I ask for three words about their style, the person who’s either getting it or wearing it themselves. Are you more organic? Are you more straight-lined? Are you delicate? Do you like bold, whatever that is? Then I ask for three words about what they know about the piece, whether this is, “I want a ring, and I want it to have the three sapphires from my mom’s favorite piece of jewelry,” or “I want it to be a piece that symbolizes the journey I went through getting cancer, and we’re making it out of the scientific part of that.” Whatever it is, I’m trying to get to know them in an efficient manner that brings us closer together. I feel like that little poem brings me there right away. Usually, the first drawing is what we go with.
Sharon: Do they bring you a stone, or several stones, if they want a stone?
Heidi: It totally depends. If they have a stone and they know they want to use that, they can bring that. It could be a chip stone they saw their mom wear their whole life and they want to use it. It could be a fancy diamond their grandmother had, or it could be something they purchased. Or they come to us and say, “I know I want a blue stone, but I don’t know exactly what I want. I want you to find it.” Then I go on a little hunt, which can take a week; it could take a month. It just depends, because we want to find the right thing. I have my resources and I go to them, and sometimes they go to their resources.
It’s all about meeting the customer where they are and bringing meaning to the piece they’re looking for, so every time they see this piece, they think, “Oh, my mom,” or “Oh, I have this new chapter of my life.” A lot of times they have raw material from some event or something that happened, and we get to transform that into something they’re looking for.
Sharon: When did you know you wanted to have a gallery? How did you decide you wanted to be a jeweler?
Heidi: I knew I wanted to have a gallery when I was at SUNY New Paltz studying with Myra and Jamie Bennett. I noticed there were very few galleries and very few places to interact with art jewelry, and I have always been a businessperson. When I was 13, I had my own jewelry business. I made earrings. My mom had a kid’s store. When we were there, I would go the bead store and make beads and then I’d grab her. She had screens which I stole from her house, and then I put ribbon around them and made them earrings. Then I would put the name, Cosmic Creations, and a little bio, and then I would sell them to stores in town. I thought, “This is winning in life. I am rich. I just sold 10 pairs of earrings.” That was the start of it.
Then in high school, I made my first ring because my art teacher in school, Mr. Gardowski, let me make jewelry. He had all the tools. In my senior year, after begging him for many years, he sent me in the back with a big piece of silverware and was like, “Go hammer that.” I was making a ring, like the same ring class I teach now, and he thought he could wear me out. He was like, “You go hammer,” and I was like, “I am not going to get sick of this.” I hammered for four days straight, and I made my first ring. I never left the art studio for the rest of the year. I probably made 50 rings that year.
Then, when I was going to Maine College of Art and I studied with Tim McCreight and Alan Perry, I knew where I was going. I didn’t have any questions. I love printmaking, and I mix that with my jewelry sometimes. They were across from each other in the hall, and I was going to be in those two spaces if you wanted to find me. I feel so lucky to have found what I love to do so early, and to have it be so expansive that you can always learn more things to do with it. You are never bored in jewelry because there are so many things, so many techniques, so many ideas. It’s just one of things that has kept me interested for many years now.
Sharon: Did you mix this with one or two business classes? Did you just know how to do that?
Heidi: I think I just had a desire to do it. With my other business when I was 13, I’d walk down the street and ask all the business owners if they wanted lunch. I would go get them lunch, and then I’d come back and they’d give me a dollar or 50 cents or whatever. I was like, “I didn’t expect that, but that was amazing.” It’s a problem, kind of, because you have to be careful. All of a sudden, you have four businesses. I just have four that exist under the same roof.
Sharon: Maine College of Art. I’ve seen ads in magazines, but is it known for its jewelry making?
Heidi: Oh, yeah. Tim McCreight pretty much wrote the textbook for jewelry making class. When you go, you don’t know what you have until you realize what you have. I went to the first Seattle SNAG conference with Tim McCreight. I got there, and everybody was shaking his hand. I was like, “Why are people so interested? Doesn’t everybody write their textbook?” You don’t know what you don’t know. I didn’t realize he wrote the textbook for the entire country, so I went there and was like, “Oh, I guess he’s a big deal.” He was a big deal to me, but I didn’t know he was a big deal to everybody.
Sharon Portelance is there. She is an amazing teacher. They have great continuing ed, and they have great BFA and MFA programs. It’s in such a beautiful part of the country. The building overlooks the harbor. It was a dream, and it was a perfect step for me to go from a small town to a small city. I applied to Boston, but that might not have been the best fit for me. Maine College of Art was a great step in the right direction. It felt good.
Sharon: I can’t see you in Boston. That would be limiting. How do you decide what’s going to be in your gallery when they’re not your pieces? How do you decide? What do you look for?
Heidi: It’s funny; before I moved the first time, when I was in Rehoboth, I was doing a lot more solo shows, one-person shows. We’re getting ready to start our exhibition series, which I’m planning on opening for next June. I’m giving myself a little space. I’m going to have a show in September so I can welcome our local community. Then I’m going to have Earrings Galore in November, which will go to New York City Jewelry Week and then come to us. For the following spring, I’m going to start our exhibitions again.
I’m really interested in group shows right now. I’m interested in this conversation between work and how we can help people understand art jewelry through a bigger grouping. I feel like that’s exciting. We’ll probably have a solo show every year, but we’re going to have a few group shows that are talking about a theme or a formal expression. Whatever it is, we’re going to cultivate some group shows that are going to be more of a conversation and are going to get the people coming in to have a conversation. I’m excited about that, I’m excited about the display, and I’m excited about the new artists. We’re starting that conversation now.
Sharon: It’s a lot on your plate at one time.
Heidi: Yes, I gave myself a year. I’m like, “Oh, I’m going to wait until next year to start that.” I didn’t cry and go crazy.
Sharon: You must have pictures come in over the transom a lot and have people saying, “Can I be in your gallery?” What do you look for? Have you ever chosen any of those, or do you only stick with people that you know, that you’ve taught, that you’ve seen their work?
Heidi: We are definitely always looking for new work. We want people. I would love the gallery to be more of a conversation and more of a forum for the artist. When people have ideas, I want them to bring me their ideas and say, “Hey, can I do this thing?” We’re having Lyndsay Rice, who is an amazing curator. She is going to curate a show for next year. She’ll bring her ideas and her expertise and her artist database in her head into the gallery. We like artists to bring in a group that makes sense to them because that’s what they’re interested in. It doesn’t happen as much as I would like it to. I think people feel like there’s this space between the gallery and the artist, but I am really into punching through that space and allowing the artist to have a little more say and be excited about something.
I would welcome people to come with ideas and their own work. We want it to be beneficial for everyone. Sometimes that’s beneficial in that you get to show your work and it does its thing. Sometimes it’s a successful show that sells a lot of work, but I don’t make that the main focus of why we’re showing work. That’s not my main focus. If it’s great work and it needs to be shown, then it needs to be shown. If it’s sold, we’re excited, but if it’s shown and it got that artist to the next place, then that’s a worthwhile endeavor.
Sharon: When you say it has to be shown, is it because you’ve seen something in the work or in the pictures that’s different? What would that be?
Heidi: Yeah, it has energy that’s something new. It has energy that’s talking about something. They’ve got a way with what they’re making. They are filled with something we haven’t seen. If that’s the case, then I want that work to be out there, and it deserves to be out there. So, yes, send me images. If you want to write a proposal for a show, and you’ve got five people you think should be in that show—sometimes we’ll use a curator if it’s actual curation. It’s one of those things where we’re open to a lot of things. We are in Delaware, so people have to come here to see the work, or they’ll see it online. Sometimes things travel, but not everything travels.
Sharon: How did you make it through Covid? You said you had one gallery that you moved out of, but how did you make it through Covid with everything going on?
Heidi: Covid was an amazing experience for us. We were on a dead-end street. It was very much studio based. I had one employee at the time. She and I just decided we were going to be in this together, so we were going to work every day. I think we went from 10 to four, four or five days a week. We enjoyed our lives, but it was a very focused time where I got to do fewer things and really focus on a few things. We made a lot of work and sold a piece a day over Instagram. Almost every day during the lockdown, we sold one piece.
We had people calling us from all over the country like, “We want you to be there when we get back. We want to pay your rent.” I was like, “Are you kidding me? This is the kindest thing I’ve ever heard.” It was one of those very heartwarming moments in my world. I realized how important every single relationship I had over 15 years had been. All of those times where I had probably spent too much time talking to that customer paid off tenfold. That was probably the opposite of what a lot of people were feeling, but I felt very invigorated and was really happy with that movement and that process of, “Well, this is what I’m going to get out of this. I’m going to move through this in a way that feels right for me.”
Again, it’s back to that little bit of financial conservativeness. I hadn’t overextended myself, so I was not really stressed. I was not intensely financially upset about the three months I knew I wouldn’t be able to open. Delaware did a good job being moderate about how they did things. When we could open, we were open, and we just followed some guidelines. In three months, things were back to almost normal for us. We were teaching classes.
Sharon: That’s a pretty short time. That’s good. Did you know when you graduated that you wanted to have a gallery and make all that stuff, or was that something you came to?
Heidi: I knew when I was at SUNY New Paltz that I wanted to have a gallery. I was in grad school, and I wanted to expand the public’s interaction with art jewelry, which I feel is really important and probably one of the most contemporary forms of art out there today. I feel like art jewelers are so special and smart and thoughtful and detail oriented. They deserve to be highlighted, and I felt like there weren’t enough places for them to do that. It was one of those things that was very important to me, to make one more space for that interaction.
Sharon: When you say art jewelry, do you mean gold and platinum or wood and whatever?
Heidi: All those things. I consider it art jewelry when anybody is bringing an idea to a piece of work and using the medium of jewelry to express it. I don’t care if you’re using gold and doing it in a thoughtful way or if you’re using paper or silver or wood. Whatever that is, my main concern is that you’re investigating something. Whether that be formal aspects of a circle—O.K., that’s an interesting investigation—or the ring through history or how plastic bonds or how to mix patterns. I don’t know. All of these things are interesting, but I want to know what your investigation is. As long as there’s an investigation and the end result is something innovative and cool, I’m down.
Sharon: When people submit their work, do they have this philosophy behind them?
Heidi: For sure. They are definitely investigating an idea. 99% of the artists are so deep in an investigation, and most people don’t even know it. That’s how they get to where the piece is, but most people don’t know how. Jewelers by nature are investigating. They’re also anal retentive and detail oriented. They are going deep, the ones I’m friends with and the ones in my gallery. They’re going deep into something. I am always in awe of how smart and thoughtful and amazing these jewelers are. They have gone beyond what people think.
Sharon: Wow! As you’re talking, I’m thinking about all the reasons I’m not a jeweler, especially when you said detail oriented. Do you care what age they are, if they’re 60?
Heidi: No. We have second-career artists. We have artists who started when they were really young. We have artists who are just out of school. We show a wide variety as long as it’s engaging and there’s thought behind it. Those are my two criteria. I don’t even know who would enter into this world without those two things.
Sharon: What do you consider art jewelry? You’re saying art jewelry is made by artists. If a piece is made by an artist, but it’s not what I would consider art jewelry; it’s just a one-off, let’s say, is that art jewelry? Do you have a definition for art jewelry?
Heidi: I think there are varying degrees of art jewelry. There are artists making work, and some of them are investigating an idea or a medium. Then some are taking it to that next level, which is showing in museums and going to that next level of research and development and thought. There’s a continuum, but they may come from there and end up here in their lifespan. When I think of Amy Tavern, she makes the most amazing production jewelry, but she also makes the most amazing art jewelry, and then she makes work that wouldn’t be considered jewelry. There’s this continuum.
I also choose the work out of what they’re making. I don’t want the things that are super-production-y and not as thoughtful and not as one of a kind. I would prefer to have more work that is—maybe it’s in their production line, but it’s one of a kind. I feel like there’s a continuum and it’s broad. I really want to usher people into art jewelry, so I might need to start them there to get them here, to get them through the bridge.
Sharon: Do you have this written somewhere? Do the people who submit know what they’re doing, that they shouldn’t present a ladder, that they should present the earring or the necklace?
Heidi: I think people know what we do. In this new space, I have Sarah Holden, who shows her art jewelry in the gallery, but now we have a space for the first time ever. That’s this wall. This week—it just got to the gallery—she’s going to put this collar she made that goes on the wall. It’s actually totally a combo of art and jewelry. It’s this life-size Elizabethan collar made of steel and pearls, and that’s going to go on the wall. I was like, “Oh my gosh! Look at this piece!” but we never had space for that before. This is a new endeavor, and we’ll see how that goes.
I’m limiting it in a way, but I’m not limiting it in another way. I think people understand when they send their work to us. Maybe they’re trying something one year and that may not get in. They usually know, and then they go further and get it because they’ve expanded what they’re doing into a more interesting realm. They were starting here, but I’m open to things that other galleries wouldn’t be open to because I’m trying to usher people in.
Sharon: Can you give me an example of what you might be interested in that another gallery would pass on?
Heidi: I don’t know exactly what that would be except for Earrings Galore. Earrings are kind of the evil stepchild of art jewelry. I just embrace earrings. I was like, “Here we go. Let’s do this because this is something people can change every day.” People love earrings. They can be big. They can be small. They can be asymmetrical. They may pass on earrings, and I said, “Let’s highlight the earrings.” That’s a prime example of where we’re not going to follow the rules of a gallery. We’re going to expand our idea of what a gallery can be.
Also, those things are all different now than they used to be. There used to be hard rules about these things. Now we can play with what we’re doing and figure out new ways of doing it and new ways of drawing in new collectors who may be interested in this whole new realm that they don’t even know exists, because none of us knew this existed. I started with making rings. I thought that was where jewelry began and where jewelry ended. Now, thank God I was given the standards I was given by Maine College of Art and Oregon College of Art and Craft and SUNY New Paltz because they allowed me to expand my way of thinking. I really am thankful for that broadened expanse of what jewelry can be, but I also understand the public is not starting there. They are starting at a whole different place, and I want to meet them where they are and move them in.
Sharon: Is that what a collector is to you, that they are just starting out and then gathering stuff?
Heidi: I have one collector that comes from D.C. every summer and buys four or five pieces. She buys things from the Smithsonian and Jewelers’ Werk in D.C. She’s got a jewelry collection to die for. Then I have people who have more traditional work. Maybe they started with my work because they love me, but hopefully they get sick of me and then move on to other artists. I see myself as a thread that brings them along to the more controversial, bigger, more risky work, what we consider art jewelry.
Sharon: Is everything one of a kind in the gallery?
Heidi: 90% of it is. Some artists will make their work multiple times, but it’s in a similar vein. But most of it is one of a kind.
Sharon: If it’s one of a kind, is that with two extra made behind it so you can ship off the second in case the first one sells? Or is it that the first one sells and that’s it?
Heidi: That’s it. You’ve got to buy it while it’s hot. We’re always changing. People come back for things and they won’t be there. This is the work we have, and we have an expanse. You can buy something here or you can buy something here. You can enter at any point. I think that’s just who I am. I want to engage the public in different ways, so we’re welcoming; we’re not, “Well, this is a gallery and you’re not going here.” We’re like, “Come in. Let’s talk about it and let’s get excited.” People will laugh and cry and ask questions. They know they have somebody who will help them or just talk about it.
Sharon: Heidi, thank you very much. When will you open your outpost on the West Coast? That’s what I want to know. We’re a wasteland out here. Thank you very much for telling us about it. Are you near the Rhode Island mansions? You’re in Delaware, but I don’t know the geography at all.
Heidi: Delaware is close to a lot, like three hours from D.C. and New York and Baltimore. That’s great because we have a huge hub that comes here for the summer. Boston and Rhode Island are like seven, eight hours; Maine is 10. We can go for a long way and get a lot of art in this short distance. In the space of California, we can get a lot in there. Jewelers’ Werk is in D.C., and Ellen Riven has an amazing gallery. We can head up to things like the contemporary jewelry galleries in Boston. I try to always work jewelry into my vacations.
Sharon: Thank you very much. On my next vacation, I hope it encompasses your gallery. I want to see this big collar you have on the wall. It sounds really interesting. Thank you very much for being with us. I really appreciate it.
Heidi: Thank you so much for having me. I so appreciate it also. It’s so much fun.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Heidi Lowe
Heidi Lowe owns and operates her own gallery, Heidi Lowe Gallery, where she teaches, makes jewelry and shows her work and other artists. She received her BFA in Metals and Jewelry from Maine College of Art in Portland, Maine. A year later she went to graduate school at the State University of New York, New Paltz where she earned her MFA. Her next steps lead her to NYC where her gallery experience began as an assistant to the director at a prominent contemporary art gallery in Chelsea.
After her time in New York, Lowe moved back to Delaware 2006 and opened Heidi Lowe Gallery which exhibits contemporary art jewelry. The gallery also functions as a teaching and studio space. The jewelry that she creates draws on intuition, nature and the history of metalsmithing. Her work is shown within her gallery as well as in numerous exhibitions at other galleries in the United States. Lowe also taught jewelry design as an adjunct professor at Towson University for eight years and currently teaches workshops at colleges and craft centers around the country. She is also a certified business and life coach for creative entrepreneurs and students throughout the US and Canada.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
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Transcript
Heidi Lowe may be the owner of a jewelry gallery, but that doesn't mean she’s your average gallerist. Known for her traveling pop-up sale Earrings Galore, Heidi is passionate about introducing collectors to art jewelry and pushing artists to the next level—and she’s willing to take risks to do it. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the inspiration behind Earrings Galore; how she balances managing Heidi Lowe Gallery with making her own jewelry; and what she looks for when choosing new artists. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
My guest today is Heidi Lowe, founder of Heidi Lowe Gallery. If you ever thought you needed a guide to show you the ropes, either for making a piece of jewelry or helping with your own jewelry business, you’ve come to the right place with Heidi Lowe and her gallery. She teaches classes in jewelry making, but she’s also known for her earring pop-ups and her wedding bands, which she has gained a lot of notoriety for. People know her for her wedding bands and the jewelry by other designers that her gallery carries. She consults with designers on their jewelry businesses. She has learned through the school of hard knocks what works and what doesn’t.
She recently moved her gallery from Rehoboth Beach, Delaware to Lewes, Delaware. Her gallery captures summer tourists and couples looking for that special wedding band. She’s going to tell us about that today, including when it’s the right time to open a new gallery and all the changes that entails. Heidi, welcome to the podcast.
Heidi: Thank you so much for having me.
Sharon: How did you decide to have a combination of selling your work and consulting? What made you decide to do that?
Heidi: I had always had interns and people I mentored. I realized I could get better at that, so I did iPEC coaching, which is the Institute for Professional Coaching Excellence. From there, I was able to gain knowledge about how to mentor people more efficiently and correctly, which led to me offering it as a service. I also have a class called Abundance for Creatives, which helps artists change their mindset from starving artist to abundance. They can see how much information they have and how equipped they are to run a business because they’re problem solvers. They think outside the box and have a great skillset to do something like this, but they’ve been always told they can’t engage that part of their brain.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I like the word “abundance.” Is that something you learned in your coaching class?
Heidi: Abundance is what we all strive for. We want abundant lives, whether that’s abundance in love or abundance in creativity or abundance in financial gain. We want to have the life we want, and everybody’s looks different. Being able to help people identify what that is and then move through that, that is what I love about coaching and the Abundance for Creatives class.
Sharon: Do you find that you get the same the same feeling of abundance if you’re helping somebody make jewelry?
Heidi: Yes. Also helping somebody understand their business or understand their skillset in business. I love to see an artist succeed, and like I said, success looks different for everyone. I want them to succeed in the way they want to succeed, whether that’s making one piece a year that goes in a museum, whether that’s making hundreds of pieces and traveling across the country, or whether that’s being in galleries all around the world. Whatever that is for them, I want that to be where they’re heading.
Sharon: Is that something you ask them at the outset?
Heidi: Yeah, we talk about that in the beginning, “What would you like your lifestyle to be, and what is your ideal for your life?” We really home in on that so it’s not society’s idea of a good life; it’s your idea of a good life.
Sharon: From everybody I’ve talked to, I presume they don’t normally teach this in jewelry making school. How did you learn the business aspect of jewelry making and having a gallery?
Heidi: My dad was a business owner, so a few things I gathered from him. Tim McCreight of Maine College of Art was very good at giving us the basics, like keep your receipts, have a different bank account, make sure you’re paying attention. I really heard that and listened to that. Then a lot was from owning a gallery and going, “O.K., what is a business? How does this work? I need to make more than I spend.” The first year I didn’t do that because I gave away too many things at a discounted price. I learned that year.
When I did iPEC, it was for myself. I didn’t think I was going to be coaching after that. I was doing it as help for my own business. It was a way of understanding what I wanted, how to run a business, and how to come from your core values and let them shine in your business, which is why people like you. You don’t need everyone to like you; you just need your people to like you.
Sharon: Do you think you have learned through the school of hard knocks in jewelry making?
Heidi: Yes. Of course, I’ve made lots of mistakes and I’ve learned from them, but I never consider them mistakes. I always consider it as, “Oh, that didn’t work. O.K., let’s move on.” I don’t home in like, “Oh, I’ve got to wallow in this thing that didn’t work.” I’m like, “Done and done. Got to get through it. Over to the next thing.” I’ve learned things that work and things that don’t and things I needed to add.
A big thing was I have a lot of parts of my business, and that’s not by accident. In order to make this whole world go, I had to have multiple parts. That’s what I teach, and that is a form of advertising. My teaching lets people understand why jewelry costs money and what they can get from jewelry. Within 15 minutes of every class, they go, “I’ll spend more on my jewelry now,” and I’m like, “Oh, great. I’ve won.” They’re paying for the cost and understanding jewelry better. It’s great for all the parts. They either decide, “I want to take more classes,” or they decide, “I never want to do this again, but I’ll buy more jewelry.”
Sharon: I’m in the part that says, “I’ll buy more jewelry,” as opposed to having to make it, which is great if you know how to do it. Why did you think it was necessary to have a new studio? What was wrong with the old one?
Heidi: Nothing was wrong with my old one. I just outgrew it. My old studio was a cottage from the 1950s that was 500 square feet. I would pretend it was much bigger, but it was 500 square feet, and that included the studio, the office, the bathroom and the gallery. I have no idea how we did the things we did there.
I had investigated rebuilding that place. We were taking steps to rebuild it, but as I was going to get permitting, I had a feeling it wasn’t the right thing to do. I listened to those feelings, and then three months later, Covid hit. I had moved my space to a dead-end street in the middle of the highway, which I was planning on staying in for one year. All of a sudden, I was in the best spot ever for going through Covid. I didn’t have to deal with the general public; they had to come to me at specific times. We could really limit things. It was great because that space was more studio than gallery. It was perfect for the time period.
I was there for three years. About two months before I left, I had that feeling like, “I’m done here. I’m ready for the next step. I don’t know where that is.” Then this space became available in Lewes, which is walking distance to my house. It’s almost like a dream. During the iPEC coaching, we envision a lot of things, like if we could have everything we want, what would that look like? I closed my eyes and did the exercise, and I was like, “Where will you be in a year?” I envisioned this brick building. It was near the water; I could walk to it and it was old. I was like, “This doesn’t even exist in my town.” We have industrial buildings. We don’t have those sorts of things. So, I was like, “Well, that’s terrible because I’m going to have to move,” but I was like, “Whatever, the universe is doing its thing. I’ll just let it do its thing.” The building I’m in is brick. It has things like archways. It’s from 1868. It looks over the water. It’s in walking distance. It couldn’t be better. I have a studio downstairs and a gallery space upstairs. I’m one block from the main street. I’m like, “Oh my, gosh, I found it!”
It was in the works seven or eight years ago. I hadn’t found it yet. Once I found it, I called the people. I have a lot of connections, so I’m very lucky. I knew it was becoming available, so I asked if I could have it and they said yes. Then I just waited to see what the universe was going to do, and they were like, “Yeah, it’s yours. Do you want it?” and I said, “O.K., it can happen. It was ready for me, and I was ready for it.
Sharon: Wow, it sounds fabulous! The industrial look and being able to walk to work and overlooking the water. Who could say that?
Heidi: I feel like, “Pinch me. I can’t even believe it.” It’s such a great space for other people’s work in the gallery, and it’s a great space for my work. Then there’s the fact that downstairs there’s a little more space so we can do two things at one time, which was the problem at the last space. It facilitates all my needs. It was great.
Sharon: Having moved twice now, what would be the biggest piece of advice if a jewelry designer was saying, “I’m thinking about moving the gallery,” or “I’ve been working from my house and I’m going to open a gallery”? What would you say?
Heidi: Mine is very energy-based. I just let my radar find it and listened to my gut. I would say listen to your gut. Where is your space? Put out there exactly what you want and then let it find you. It will find you. Allow yourself to expand your thinking and allow things to be better than you expected, and make smart choices.
I’ve always lived within my means. I don’t go too far outside out of what I can handle financially. I made a big splurge on the display cases this time, but it was still a splurge within my means. Even though it felt like, “Oh, my gosh, I’m getting these custom-made cabinets,” I said, “This is really special. They’ve got these drawers and my cabinetmaker made them beautifully.” I also was still working within my means, and that is huge. You don’t want to put yourself in the stress that you’re so extended that you can’t focus on the good parts of your business, like meeting people and all of that. I think that shows. I think people feel that.
Sharon: They feel the stress.
Heidi: They feel the stress. In our space, we cultivate positive, really good, engaged energy because that’s not a huge stress. Even though this is a much bigger space and it’s a much bigger risk, it’s still within the means of what I think I can realistically do, yet it’s extending me in a different way.
Sharon: Was it a big challenge? Was it stressful to have new promotion done or to expand your promotion to let people know you moved?
Heidi: I live in a small town, so they all knew before I knew. They all knew. We put it out there. Social media is great for that, and people were very excited. I don’t know how I’m so lucky. People come in and they’re so happy for me. I feel very lucky. People come here from all the cities around us like New York and Baltimore and Philly and D.C. During the pandemic, they were calling and saying, “Can we pay your rent? We want to make sure you’re there. It’s important to us.” It’s a miracle.
Sharon: Wow! How do they hear about you if they come from New York or big cities? I imagine they have a lot of choice already.
Heidi: Yeah, they have lots of choice, but it’s hard to find that jewelry. If they’re interested in the arts, our name comes up quickly. If they’re coming to my shop, I’m telling them about other galleries, like Peninsula Gallery. It’s not hard to find your people in this town, and when you do, they’ll send you to other people right down the street. We’re not working with such a large area, so we can really home in on the people.
Sharon: That’s great, but it seems like somebody who comes from a big city already has so much choice by the time they get to you. I first knew you by your earring pop-ups. Tell us about the backstory to that. I kept smiling when I was reading it.
Heidi: Earrings Galore. It’s funny you say they have lots of options, but a lot of my pop-up clients came to that show. A lot of New York City comes to Rehoboth because of that show. The real impetus was I couldn’t decide what jewelry to bring with me to the SNAG conference because I didn’t have enough time to make those decisions before I left.
Sharon: The SNAG conference being?
Heidi: It’s the Society of North American Goldsmiths conference, which I go to nearly every year. You have to bring the jewelry. You can’t show up there without jewelry. So, I brought a box with all my earrings because I was like, “Well, as long as I’ve got good earrings, I’ll be fine.” I put that in my jewelry case with my clothes and zipped off to wherever I was going that year. When I got there, my friends came into the room and all of a sudden—and I know all the jewelers I carry, or most of them, and I know the earrings; I knew how much they were. It’s just one of the weird things I can keep in my brain.
So, I was at the SNAG conference and I was like, “Oh yeah, those are this artist and they’re $340. Those are made by Harriete Estel Berman and they’re this much money, and those are this much money.” It was my jewelry, but I, being a business owner and O.K. with letting go of things, sold like 20 pieces of my jewelry out of my collection that I had bought from the gallery. I was like, “Oh, my gosh, I can’t believe this. I guess this is an untapped marketplace, and I’m going to do something about this.” We want to buy other artists’ work, and it really wasn’t something the SNAG conference was doing. It wasn’t part of their mission, and it wasn’t what they were doing. So, I was like, “Well, next year I’m going to have a pop-up. This is so exciting.”
The following year, I transformed the hotel room in Seattle, I believe it was, into a gallery space. I put these heads on the wall, and it was all covert because you can’t be doing this in a hotel, but I had it looking really great. I moved the bed and put things up, and it was thoughtful and respectful. I put little pins in there and had one earring on the head, and it was gangbusters. People were so excited. People were sharing a pair of earrings. People were buying a pair for their friends. They were buying high end, low end, all the in between. They were so excited to support one another. It was great. It was such a fun experience.
The following year, I didn’t do it, but then the following year, I did do it. I didn’t want it to be too much. I wanted to let it do its organic thing. This show happens at my gallery. It happens at whatever conference I’m going to that year that’s jewelry oriented. Now it usually travels to another gallery during the year. It’s become a really fun thing that people look forward to. It’s almost like a starter show for jewelry enthusiasts and a way to collect one another’s work for jewelry makers.
Sharon: Starter show is a good way to describe it because it is. You can go and pick a few things and know you haven’t spent a fortune.
Heidi: Yeah, and you can start your collection there. Many people in the different arenas I work with, whether it’s a local person here or somebody who knows about art jewelry or a docent from the Smithsonian who’s on vacation, they are like, “Oh, this is so exciting.” They might buy this pair this year, but then next year, they buy this pair, and then the next year they buy this more adventurous pair. It allows people to get into collecting art jewelry.
That is how I see myself as a gallery owner. I want to be the bridge between spaces. I want to be the bridge between traditional jewelry and a more meaningful piece that then leads to a more artistic piece. I want to be the person who’s showing the exhibition and gets them thinking about it, but also helps them find something they feel comfortable wearing that brings them where they’re going. It’s understanding that art jewelry is a whole thing, and it’s working with the medium of jewelry as a form of expression.
I could do different things, but I love being the bridge between not knowing what art jewelry is and then having an art jewelry collection. Then I talk to them about, “Oh, you could give it to the Smithsonian. You have a collection. You have five pieces. You’re working on a collection. This is what I think about your pieces, and this is where these could go.” Then they start bringing in their grandchildren, and then their grandchildren understand making and maybe they make a piece. It becomes a building upon a building, and it really is special.
Sharon: Did it expand into necklaces or anything else? It seems like a wonderful way to do it, a wonderful bridge like you’re talking about.
Heidi: Yes. The earring show is its own thing and it’s something people look forward to, but of course we carry 25 artists or more all year round, and they have their collections. They’ll have two beautiful pairs of earrings, and then they’ll have two stellar necklaces and a few pendants and some rings. We want to highlight their work, so whatever it is they’re working on that fully shows the breadth of what they do is what we want to show. The earring show is just a way to get them to buy into what we’re doing.
Sharon: How do you find the makers for the earrings and the other art jewelry aside from that? There are so many at your pop-ups. How do you find the makers?
Heidi: We have a call for entries that goes out. It used to be in January, but now it’s in the August or September time period. We are planning for New York City Jewelry Week. We do a call for entries worldwide. We usually have about 200 applicants, and we pick between 40 and 60, depending on what our space can do that year. It is so hard to decide because they’re so good.
That is a way I get to know artists. Then they may end up in the gallery from that show because we get to know are we good at working together, do we collaborate well, is the work working with my audience? Sometimes I don’t care if it’s working; I just want to bring the work so people can expand. Sometimes if it’s going to be a longer-term thing, you want it to be beneficial on both sides.
Sharon: How many pieces do you usually get? You have 200 applicants, and you pick 40 to 60. Do they bring multiples of each?
Heidi: No, it’s six pairs to begin with. Some artists, we’ve sold six pairs before they even hit the wall and I’m like, “Oh, my gosh!” which is awesome. It doesn’t happen often, but when it does, it’s amazing. We’ll do an unwrapping on Instagram, and people will get excited and they’re like, “Oh, I want those, and I want those.” I’m like, “I don’t even have them in the inventory yet. Hold on.” But it’s an excitement. They don’t necessarily have production. It’s all one of a kind, but they can send six more or they can send four more. If halfway through we’ve sold half of them, we’ll send them an email and say, “Hey, can you provide us with a few more? They’ve been selling.”
Sharon: Do you find that they come from a particular area in the world? I presume that most of them come from the States, but do they come from France or Germany?
Heidi: Yeah, all over. We sometimes will get Metalwerx from Massachusetts. I think one year they made an effort to push their students and their employees and people they know, so we got like 25 applicants from Metalwerx in Massachusetts, which is so cool. Usually, it’s somebody who has seen it a few times and they want to be part of it. It’s a great show to highlight emerging artists and a great way to get your first yes. I love to be the first yes.
Sharon: It’s a good point, the first yes.
Heidi: It’s an honor to be someone’s first yes on both sides. I have tons of artists who have been with me for a long time, but I was their first yes. A lot of galleries will say, “We only work with artists who have been in the field for five years.” Well, you’ve got to start somewhere. You’re going to end up as a banker otherwise, and most of us don’t want to end up as a banker. I really take that seriously. I will take a risk, which is not that much of a risk for either of us. We’re just trying to show work that’s cool and innovative and fun and thoughtful. It’s a way to get to know new artists and a way to push people, to get them to know that their work is worth making. Sometimes people struggle with that if there aren’t some yeses, because you need those.
Sharon: Do people come to you during the year and say, “How do I become part of this?”
Heidi: Yeah.
Sharon: Are there some that you consider art jewelry and some that you don’t out of the earrings or jewelry that is submitted?
Heidi: Well, they’re all made by artists. We want them all to be one of a kind, made by artists, and we want there to be a variety. There are some that appeal to someone who’s a little more conservative in their dress, and there are some that are really out there in the way they’re speaking about a current event, or they are asking a lot of the wearer. So, we like to have a wide grouping, and we really do think about the grouping. One year I felt like we had all oxidized black jewelry, and I was like, “How did we end up with this?” You want there to be a lovely variety for people to choose from and see.
We realized we overdid that variety one year when we decided to change our display a little bit. We used to put jewelry everywhere. Every head was a different pair, and then we made every row a different person. So, there are five pairs on display in each row. It gives people a little space in their heads to say, “Oh, this is this person’s work. I understand it better because I’ve seen five pieces,” and “Oh, this is what I have to choose from.” Sometimes things take a long time. I think it took us seven years to get to that, but that’s what it takes.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kim Nunneley:
Kim Nunneley is a Los Angeles-based IATSE Local 600 photographer specializing in unit photography, gallery, lifestyle and portraiture. She has held various roles, from photographer at a fashion merchandising company to photo assistant, and she has worked at one of the world’s most prestigious photo studios in NYC. She has developed a niche as a jewelry photographer working for major jewelry companies.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A simple photo can never quite capture the real-life beauty of a diamond, ruby or sapphire. That’s why photographer Kim Nunneley relies on a variety of tools, software and experience to make jewelry photographs that shine. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the mistakes she made when she first started photographing jewelry; her tips for burgeoning jewelry photographers; and what questions jewelry brands should ask to choose the right photographer. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
My guest today is Kim Nunneley of Kim Alexis Photography. She is a photographer who specializes in jewelry. She’ll tell us some of the tricks we should know to take a nice photo. Welcome back.
Does the stone matter? Is it easier to photograph some stones than others, like a ruby as opposed to a sapphire?
Kim: What’s actually more important is the age and condition the stones are in, more so than the color. It’s more so the cut and condition. I have one client who specializes in antique and vintage jewelry. A lot of the pieces are very old, and they’re not as easy to photograph as the jewelry from my other client who makes her own stuff. It’s all sparkly, brand-new pieces, and they’re so much easier to photograph. The diamonds are easier to photograph. The gold is easier to photograph. With these antique pieces, they’re much more complicated because we have to make these stones that are 100 years old or more look sparkly and shiny and beautiful. A lot of times you’ll see—what is it called, an incision? Is that the word for these stones? Is that what it is, incisions in the stones?
Sharon: I don’t know.
Kim: Like a cut on the inside.
Sharon: Yeah.
Kim: Yeah, some of these old stones have that. I think it’s more crucial in learning how to photograph those older conditions.
Sharon: Because antique jewelry is so popular today, what advice would you give somebody who has been handed a 100-year-old ring?
Kim: I would say practice on newer pieces to learn how light reflects and how it hits. Once you know that, you’ll be able to adjust your lighting for these older pieces. You’ll know what to do with those situations if you have already photographed newer pieces. I would say start off with newer pieces to sharpen your skills.
Sharon: What if somebody hands you a diamond and says, “I want to show that this is a diamond of a certain cut, an old one versus a new piece”? Can you do that with photography?
Kim: Yeah, you absolutely can. Like I said, sometimes we just can’t get it as sparkly as a new diamond. Even with lighting and Photoshopping, it will never look the same, but there are tools you can use. That’s also important; it doesn’t necessarily have to look as sparkly or new because it’s not. It’s not a new one and there’s beauty in that. There’s a perfect example of a rose cut. I love a rose cut diamond, but they are so difficult to photograph, especially the older ones.
Sharon: What do you do if you are feeling frustrated by a rose cut diamond? Do you just go with it?
Kim: These photoshoots are always done with my clients present, so we will change. We’ll modify the lighting. We’ll try different setups. We will incorporate different techniques, like using a fill card or a white bounce card or a little black card, or a piece of silver or gold cardboard to shine light on it. I have all these different tools we will use and attempt. We’ll try to do the best we can, and at the end we say, “That’s the best we’re going to get it.” The clients are happy. We get something that is an accurate representation of the piece.
Sharon: It’s interesting that you have clients present. Usually, a client will look after the photograph is done. They’ll look at the images on a lightbox, but they’re present for the photography.
Kim: I have very hands-on clients. I have a couple of clients who are a little more hands-off. Like you say, I deliver the images. I do my magic and I deliver images afterwards, but I do have some clients that are very hands-on. They want to be present, and it’s important for them to be there while I’m shooting. We’ll adjust things. We’ll make adjustments. This is more so with the higher-end pieces and the antique pieces. They’re very particular and want it to look as accurate as possible.
Sharon: Have you ever had a client reject everything you’ve done, all the images, and say, “Start again”?
Kim: No, that would be a nightmare. Thankfully, no, that’s never happened. I would say by the time you have clients, you want to have enough experience where that doesn’t happen. But yeah, thankfully no. Maybe once in five years, there’s been like two pieces we had to reshoot, but that’s all.
Sharon: Does the size of the piece of jewelry matter, if you’re given a ring with a big stone?
Kim: I prefer bigger jewelry, actually, funny enough. One of my clients makes very dainty, little pieces, very thin pieces. They’re beautiful, but they are so difficult to photograph because they are so tiny. I like photographing bigger pieces. I’m trying to think why it’s easier for me personally. I think it’s because these bigger pieces are typically less—well, it depends; sometimes they can be really reflective. I think what’s more difficult is high-polish pieces, the really glossy, high-polish jewelry because you see everything. They reflect everything, as opposed to the gold in an older piece that’s more matte. I don’t know if that’s the appropriate term, but it’s not as shiny. That’s a lot easier to photograph because we can get clean gold or silver or whatever it is. We can get it really clean looking. But I love photographing big, chunky pieces; that’s my favorite.
Sharon: When you say big and chunky, that’s relative. Do you mean a big piece, or do you mean bigger than the norm? What do you mean by that?
Kim: I guess bigger than the norm. Yeah, you’re right; it is relative. Bigger than the norm. It wouldn’t be your everyday jewelry. It would be for an event or a cocktail ring or a red-carpet piece. I love photographing that kind of stuff; it’s really fun for me. I also like a challenge sometimes.
Sharon: That’s interesting. So, a stylist might give you several pieces and say, “Gwyneth Paltrow is going to be wearing this.”
Kim: Yeah, exactly. I might get something like that to photograph. I think it’s always fun seeing a piece that I photographed published in a magazine. Maybe an actor is wearing it on the red carpet or my photography is published in magazines. It’s nice to see that. At times, it will be published. It’s always nice to see my work and have it be kind of tangible.
Sharon: Because of the difficulty—and it does sound very difficult—do you charge more for jewelry photography?
Kim: Yes, it is very tedious; it is very difficult. It is a learned skillset. So yes, jewelry photography is not cheap. It’s also because you’re paying for their years of experience. They’re not going to waste your time trying to shoot this ruby or diamond. It’s like, “No, I know how to shoot that. We do this,” and it’s done in three to five minutes, onto the next piece. There’s that aspect of it, and it’s so tedious with the focus stacking. You have to have a lot of patience for photographing jewelry. It’s very, very tedious. That’s another reason why it is a little pricier than other types of photography, as opposed to a family portrait or something.
Sharon: It sounds very difficult, so I should expect to pay more. Are people taken aback by the price?
Kim: No, they’re not. The ones that are taken aback are the newer companies that are just starting out, or maybe it’s a passion project for them, a more personal project, and they just want photography. Larger companies know what the pricing is like. There’s a standard rate, roughly, so it’s not too surprising.
Sharon: I’m surprised from leafing through a magazine, they say, “Nails by somebody,” and I’m going, “Who?"
Kim: I know; it’s so funny. There is a specialty for everything. It’s so funny.
Sharon: Is there a specialty for jewelry photography? Is somebody who calls and says, “Oh, you have to have Kim. She knows everything about jewelry”? How do you get your work if you’re not on staff?
Kim: That’s a good question. Word of mouth is a huge part of it. I do a little bit of advertising and email reach-out, just pitching myself. It’s a combination of all that.
Sharon: If I’m trying to decide between jewelry photographer A and B, what should I ask?
Kim: I would ask if they’ve had experience with whatever you specialize in. Maybe it’s antiques or tiny, intricate, precious little pieces. Whatever that specialty is, I would ask if that photographer has experience photographing that. Obviously, I want to see a portfolio. Also, if they’re open to it, I’ll do a test shoot with maybe three pieces, like a trial day. You just give them a free trial. I’ve had clients do that, where we do a trial day to see not only if they’re happy with the images, but if you enjoy working with each other. I think that’s important as well.
Sharon: I don’t know how you are, but I presume I would take tear sheets if there are publications with their jewelry. Is that what you would show to say, “I know how to do antique stuff”?
Kim: Yes, in my portfolio, I do have tear sheets in there as well. I have a mixture of tear sheets and product shots because I think that’s important. Like you mentioned, it provides credibility and shows you’ve accomplished it.
Sharon: How long do you think it took you to feel confident that you could take nice pictures of jewelry?
Kim: Oh gosh, I don’t know. I’m going to say about four years ago. I think that’s when I started to feel that I’m really becoming an expert at this and confident in my skillset.
Sharon: So, it took you about five years to feel confident, and that was four years ago? I’m trying to understand this.
Kim: I’ve been doing jewelry photography for about eight years now. I was doing a good job, but I was acquiring different clients as well during that time. Maybe the first two years I had one client, and it grew from there. As I kept shooting, you keep learning these different techniques. A lot of it is learning on the job. Even today, there are some pieces that surprise me, where I wouldn’t have thought to use a certain lighting technique.
Sharon: What did you do during Covid? Did people stop sending you jewelry?
Kim: Funny enough, during Covid—and thank goodness for technology—a few of my clients decided to do Zoom photoshoots. They would either send me the pieces or I’d go pick them up. I’d set up my whole station, and it’s called shooting tethered. I basically connected my camera to my computer, and as I’m photographing, I have images pop onto the screen. I share my screen and my clients can see the images coming in live. So, they might say, “Hold on, that looks a little crooked,” and I have to tick it. “The diamond’s not shiny.” “Can you get that more blue?” They would do that. We switched to that, which was so helpful. It felt like quite a few photographers and companies started doing that.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I have a friend who’s a makeup artist, and she basically stopped working during Covid. Nobody called her. She couldn’t be blowing into somebody’s face.
Kim: Yeah, that’s difficult. I do portraits as well, and obviously that did stop, but I was so thankful for my jewelry clients. You don’t have to be there. It’s products, so you can do it virtually. I felt very grateful for that.
Sharon: Kim, thank you so much. I learned so much about jewelry photography. First of all, I don’t want to ever try it. Thank you for being here today. We really appreciate it.
Kim: Thank you so much for having me.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kim Nunneley:
Kim Nunneley is a Los Angeles-based IATSE Local 600 photographer specializing in unit photography, gallery, lifestyle and portraiture. She has held various roles, from photographer at a fashion merchandising company to photo assistant, and she has worked at one of the world’s most prestigious photo studios in NYC. She has developed a niche as a jewelry photographer working for major jewelry companies.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A simple photo can never quite capture the real-life beauty of a diamond, ruby or sapphire. That’s why photographer Kim Nunneley relies on a variety of tools, software and experience to make jewelry photographs that shine. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the mistakes she made when she first started photographing jewelry; her tips for burgeoning jewelry photographers; and what questions jewelry brands should ask to choose the right photographer. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
I’m sure you’ve struggled with making the piece of jewelry that was in front of you look as good in a picture as it does in real life. A good picture attracts customers. The quality of a picture can tell people a lot about your business. After all, you’re selling luxury, and the quality of the picture tells a lot of the story. My guest today is Kim Nunneley of Kim Alexis Photography. She is a photographer who specializes in jewelry. She’ll tell us some of the tricks we should know to take a nice photo. Kim, welcome to the podcast.
Kim: Hi, Sharon. Thank you for having me. I’m really excited.
Sharon: How was it that you came to photographing jewelry? People photograph all sorts of things.
Kim: It’s such a specific niche. About 10 years ago, I had a friend who came to me. She majored in sculpture, and she had just started dabbling in creating jewelry pieces. She said, “Can you photograph some of these?” I had no idea what I was doing. I didn’t realize how reflective jewelry was, any of that. It’s photographing little mirrors, but I did my best. I didn’t know anything about focus stacking, which is really important in jewelry photography. I did my best, and we got some good photos. To this day, she’s still my client 10 years later.
After that, about a year later, I actually got a full-time position as a staff photographer at a fashion merchandising company in New York. Some of the things we had to shoot were jewelry pieces, and then and there I really learned to hone my skills. I learned to use a lightbox, tools that are helpful. I can get into that later, but there are certain tools that are very helpful. I learned a lot at that job. Honestly, just from there, I’ve grown.
Sharon: It’s true that photographing jewelry is harder than other things, would you say?
Kim: Oh, yes. I think it’s the most difficult thing to photograph. I do various types of photography, and I say it’s the most difficult.
Sharon: I never tried. I wouldn’t want to try.
Kim: Making the diamonds sparkly, the opals really saturated. There are techniques for doing that.
Sharon: Is that like where you look at a picture and you know the model has makeup on and everything? Is that what you do in jewelry? Do you make a sapphire bluer?
Kim: Sometimes yes. We make it blue. We tweak it, saturate the colors. There are also composited things, which is a big part of it when you photograph a ring, for example, maybe either a diamond ring or an opal, whatever stone. I shoot the band in a certain lighting situation and then I’ll change the lighting setup and photograph it just for the stones. There’s a technique called compositing where I crop the stone into the other photo. It’s the same with lots of different kinds of photographs, like a poster for a huge blockbuster film where they composite the airplanes, the props, whatever it is. It’s the same thing. You just plug them in.
Sharon: What tools does an amateur photographer need? I always hear about a lightbox.
Kim: Yes, that’s the number one. The most important thing you need is a lightbox. For people that don’t know what a lightbox is, it’s literally a box that’s white or ideally translucent. I use a translucent paper. I actually built my own lightbox. You want it because you want to avoid reflections. That’s basically what you’re trying to do. If you put a ring on a table, you’re going to see reflections coming from everywhere. So, you put it in a lightbox and shine your light through the box, which is why you want translucent paper ideally. That’s the number one thing for anyone, whether you’re an amateur or you’re doing it just for fun. The second thing you need is a macro lens, which allows you to get really, really close up to these little, tiny pieces.
Sharon: Can you have a macro lens with an Apple camera, or do you need a special camera?
Kim: Yes, you need a DSLR. You need a special camera. If you’re just starting out and you don’t have access to that, you can use something not as high quality. But when you’re getting into professional photography, you do need a DSLR camera and what’s called a 100-millimeter macro lens, which allows you to get up close.
Sharon: You’re making me not want to try it. Is there anything else that’s essential besides the camera and the lightbox and the special kind of lens?
Kim: Then what it comes down to is the props and tools. For example, if we’re photographing earrings—I’m giving away all my secrets—we’ll use an earring stand, but ideally you want it to be clear. Everything that goes in the box should be clear. Sometimes, maybe at the trade shows, you’ll see black velvet. You want to use clear everything, so you’ll use clear earring stands or a necklace holder that’s clear. Usually, it’s made out of plexiglass, so it almost looks like it’s floating in the air. Some clients like to add shadows to their pieces; some don’t want shadows. Everyone has their own distinct vision for the jewelry photography of their own pieces, but that’s really important.
Sharon: I’m going to be a lot more aware of it. Do the outlines of the plexiglass show, or do you just shoot through it?
Kim: Not many people would think to ask that. Yeah, it definitely shows. You can see the outline. That’s something you have to remove in Photoshop. That’s when those Photoshop skills are important.
I didn’t realize this until I started really getting into jewelry photography. I used to just grab an item and put it in with my hands, and then I’d photograph it and go, “Oh, my gosh, I can see my fingerprints.” That’s how close up you can get with these lenses. It’s insane. It's wild. It’s amazing, but yes, you need special jewelry cloth to make sure you’re not getting dirt on it. You don’t want to see any dirty spots on the pieces. You use special tweezers and tools like that. You want to make sure you’re using the right things. If you have a piece in there and you say, “Oh, it’s not symmetrical,” I used to just grab it with my fingers, and I’d either get fingerprints on it or I would turn it too far. Everything in jewelry photography is so slight and subtle that you need various delicate tools. You need to ever-so-slightly move the piece for placement.
Sharon: What did people do before Photoshop? I always wonder about that.
Kim: That is a great question. I wasn’t around for that, but I’ve heard stories where you would hand paint it. You would do it by hand.
Sharon: Oh, gosh! Did you come to this photography because you like jewelry so much or would any kind of photography have satisfied you?
Kim: It’s a combination of it starting off with my friend who’s now a jewelry designer. That really launched it. I have to say, as I started photographing more jewelry, I’ve come to love jewelry so much. It’s funny because I never knew my style, but now that I’ve seen so many pieces, I know what I’m into; I know my style. I have such an appreciation for that art. It’s really beautiful.
Sharon: What’s your style?
Kim: I love anything with starbursts or hearts. I love opals even though they’re a little difficult to photograph. I love classic pieces, like the classic gold band, a chunky ring. Actually, right now I’m wearing my favorite everyday ring. It’s one of my clients, Fox & Bond. I like anything feminine.
Sharon: Do you have to worry about photographing it if you’re wearing it, if there’s someone with an opal?
Kim: No, you don’t. I’ve discovered the trick for photographing opals. Right now, I’m in my room. If I’m looking at it now it looks a little flat, but out in the sunshine, then you see that colored marbling. It’s the same thing with artificial light. When I have it inside the lightbox, I need to almost recreate sunshine. I use what’s called direct light. That means I don’t have an umbrella on it. There’s no diffusion on it. It’s just hard light, and that’s when you really see all the saturated colors and what makes an opal so beautiful.
Sharon: I hesitate to ask, and you can tell me if this is too technical for somebody who knows nothing, but what is focus stacking?
Kim: Focus stacking is the technique of taking multiple photos of a single piece and quite literally stacking them together. The thing with a macro lens is that you’re getting so up close to the piece that it blurs out the rest of it. You might have the diamond sharp and in focus, but the shank is blurry; it’s out of focus. So, I very slowly twist my lens to get every piece in focus. It’s the diamond, then the beginning of the shank, then the middle, the back, every piece of it. This is especially important when you have engraving on the back of the band and you want that to be in focus. I typically take about 15 to 20 photos per piece. I use a special software called Helicon Focus. You plop those photos in that software and it knows how to stack them. It stacks them for you, and it spits out one sharp image. It’s really interesting. It knows what’s sharp and what’s out of focus and merges them all together.
Sharon: Wow, it sounds interesting! What are the top three mistakes you see when you look in magazines or at trade shows?
Kim: Oh, I see a lot. Some reflections are O.K. They help add dimension. Highlights and reflections add dimension to any piece, but I think when it becomes distracting, when it’s huge and you can’t see what’s going on or you go, “I see a person reflected in there,” that’s when it becomes distracting. That’s a big mistake.
And I think just making the stones look dull. That’s another mistake I see. You want them to look shiny and crisp. You want to showcase the piece at its best. That’s really, really important. Third, not photo stacking. I think it’s important to photo stack. I see a lot of websites where the back is out of focus. It’s soft. It would be nice to see the whole piece sharp and see how it looks because these pieces are so expensive. You’re sitting on a computer, and you really want to know what you’re ordering. I think it’s important with these luxury items.
Sharon: Do you think it’s true of less expensive items that aren’t thousands of dollars? I’m thinking of when I go to trade shows and they say to me, “What do I need good photography for?”
Kim: I think it’s important because, again, it showcases the piece in accuracy. Especially when you’re listing investment pieces or an engagement ring or whatever it is, I think it’s crucial. If it’s something that’s costume jewelry or lower end, maybe it’s not as crucial, but especially with these luxury pieces, you want high-quality imagery to showcase it.
Sharon: Sometimes I’ve seen pictures of jewelry where I’ve had to look for the jewelry itself because of the background. Maybe it’s a plant or something, but the jewelry has gotten lost.
Kim: Yeah, I was going to ask you that, actually. From your standpoint, when you’re online looking at social media, in front of the screen, is it distracting? I would love to hear your perspective. You have it from my perspective.
Sharon: Once in a while I come across a photo where I really have to look, like, “Where’s the ring you’re talking about?” or “Where are the earrings?” It all runs together.
Kim: Oh no, that’s not good. You definitely don’t want to not be able to find the piece, and you definitely don’t want anything distracting in the background. I want a solid-color background, ideally white. I’ve even had some of my clients—if there’s a reflection in it, maybe it’s the camera; it looks like a spot or a line—tell me that some customers think the piece is dirty. They don’t realize it’s a reflection. It’s important. It can make or break a sale.
Sharon: I have to ask you. My feeling is that jewelry is not as big here as it is on the East Coast in New York. Did you find a difference, and did you find a difference in finding clients where you were out here?
Kim: I really started my jewelry journey here in Los Angeles. Like I said, I was working a full-time job. I was a staff photographer at a fashion merchandizing company, so I wasn’t really pursuing clients. I think you’re correct in that the jewelry world is probably bigger on the East Coast, but from my own experience, I don’t know. I moved to Los Angeles and started here almost from scratch, but it’s been good.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jan Krulick-Belin
Jan Krulick-Belin, a museum and art consultant and art and jewelry historian, has more than forty years of experience at such institutions as the Corcoran Gallery of Art, Denver Art Museum, Beaumont (Texas) Art Museum, and Smithsonian Institution. Retired as director of education at the Phoenix Art Museum, she still works with museums, art organizations, and private collectors and served as guest curator at the Sylvia Plotkin Judaica Museum, Phoenix.
Additional Resources
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript
As an art and jewelry historian and museum educator, Jan Krulick-Belin was uniquely qualified to follow the surprising journey she went on to write her first book, “Love, Bill: Finding my Father Through Letters from World War II.” Bringing together her knowledge of World War II-era culture and her research skills, writing the book was a labor of love. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her tips for self-publishing; what sweetheart jewelry is and why it became so popular during World War II; and what it was like to be at the forefront of the museum education field. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
One of the eternal questions is whether one has to be a jewelry historian to appreciate the background of jewelry. Do you have to be a jeweler to appreciate jewelry? My guest, Jan Krulick-Belin, can answer all our questions. Welcome back.
Jan: I’ve had people come up to me and show me stuff they’ve had, that their mothers or grandmothers or aunts had and left, and they didn’t know what it was. I said, “Well, that’s a piece of sweetheart jewelry.” They had no idea what it was. DUPLICATION OF END OF PART ONE.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Is it a more contemporary thing? Do they call it sweetheart jewelry?
Jan: It is still known as sweetheart. There are a handful of books that have been written. Off the top of my head, I can’t remember some of the authors, but there are not very many. I’ve seen people who will do lectures or write about jewelry from different periods of the 20th century. They will mention it during the 1940s. They will talk a little bit about sweetheart jewelry and jewelry made during the war.
In terms of writing books just on sweetheart jewelry, there are very few out there, but if you go to a bunch of different sources and learn about what was happening in the fashion world during the war, that will come up. You’ll learn about rationing and the War Bureau and all their rules and regulations. It was interesting that Marcus of Nieman Marcus was actually head of the War Production Board and came up with all these rationing roles for fashion. If you start delving into different areas, you’ll be able to pick up little bits and pieces and put it together.
Sharon: That’s interesting. People don’t know what it is. The other thing that interested me when I was reading about you was the fact that you were in only the third museum education class.
Jan: Yeah, I know. I feel ancient. I was in the class of 1978—that gives it all away, doesn’t it?—in grad school. It was the very first program of its kind in the country where you got a master’s degree in museum education. It was started by the professor I referred to, Dr. Marcella Brenner, who was an incredible woman. She was in the education field, but she married Morris Louis, who was an important abstract-expressionist artist. So, she was part of the art world, and she noticed that in museums, there was a lot of stuff going on that wasn’t very helpful to the general visitor.
Usually, people who developed materials or wrote the labels on the walls came from an academic or scholarly curatorial background. A lot of what they wrote was for their peers and the general public didn’t understand it. She felt that there needed to be a combination of people who are familiar with art—or whatever museum you’d go work in, because it was a multidisciplinary program, whether you worked in a science museum or a history museum. But the illness was the same no matter what museum you’d go to, and she felt it was important to teach people not just the background of the field and the type of museum they wanted to go into, but to understand how people learn in a museum setting and how to teach and how to communicate. She developed this program at George Washington University in the education department, and I was in the third graduating class of that program. We were newbies and the field was just forming.
I had a couple of mentors, one who I worked with in Denver and who I consider the first generation of museum educators. I’m stuck in the second generation of museum educators because we came along and solidified certain things within the field that really made it a field. My goal was to work with curators and other museum professionals, even designers, and help them understand how people go through a museum, understand what happens and how to communicate without patronizing. I think that’s the fine line. You don’t want to talk down to people. My goal is to teach people how to look, what to look at. We’re born to see, but we’re not born knowing how to look carefully or knowing what to look for or what to look at. I think that notion carries through into my art history as well as my jewelry history. It's getting people to look and think based on what they see and getting them curious enough to go further with the information.
Sharon: Do you find that you teach adults differently in looking? If they have a piece of jewelry, does an adult look at it differently?
Jan: I think there’s definitely a difference between teaching adults and children, especially in a museum setting. Just as if you were a teacher of any subject, you’re either an elementary school teacher or not. I feel more comfortable talking to high schoolers or adults. I think adults like more information. As part of my jobs over the years, I was always in charge of training the docents or the volunteer guides to work with school groups or adult groups.
I can tell you in evaluations, I overheard a lot of things I would cringe at. When you’ve got a group of fifth graders and somebody’s sitting there lecturing nonstop about the history of X, Y, Z, and it was related to the surrealist movement, these kids don’t know that. You start with what they see. Describe what they’re looking at and ask, “What do you think this might be about?” or “How are you reacting to this?” I found, particularly in an art museum setting—and I think a little bit in the jewelry world too—quite often, if people don’t have the background, you have to start where people are. You have to very slowly give information and be very careful explaining any new terms.
One of my minors as an undergraduate was also theater, so when I worked with children in a museum setting, I incorporated a lot of theater. It wasn’t unusual for me. Everybody used to think it was unusual, crazy, whatever. I would teach whole art history classes in period costume. We created things we called art carts, which were trunks for the fashion and costume collection. In the Beaumont Museum, I had a huge armoire with things hanging in it and different samples of textiles so people could see and touch and feel. That’s the opening; being dramatic. When I was in Denver, I also got a big National Endowment for the Humanities grant to teach art history classes to kids in the galleries using real objects. Again, I conned a lot of my professor friends at Denver University to come in costume and teach as if they were a historical figure. I think adults like that too. I think they’re a little taken aback at first, but who doesn’t enjoy something like that? I think they all love theater a little bit.
As far as jewelry, I don’t know that I’ve ever worked with kids in talking about jewelry. It wasn’t part of what I was doing back then, and I haven’t worked with kids very much in the last 20 years or so. All of my teaching is with adults, but I think you have to start where they are, find out what they know. I think kids—and, believe me, a lot of adults; you’d be surprised—don’t have those hooks that some of us take for granted, like understanding the stories of the Bible or knowing basic history. All those things come into play when you’re talking about art history or jewelry history or any kind of history. People just don’t have that knowledge base anymore. You sometimes really have to start from the ground level and figure out what your audience knows and then go from there.
Sharon: From the jewelry history you have taught, from when you taught kids, would you say that boys say “Yuck” to a heart and a girl might be attracted?
Jan: Maybe. Again, I’ve never had that experience. Anytime you’re teaching any audience, you have to find the hook you think will make sense. We used to laugh when you’re working with kids in school because the grosser you can get, the better you get to the boys. It’s sort of the same thing. If you’re showing them a diamond brooch—and I’m pulling this out of thin air since I’ve never had to do this—you ask, “Where do you think these things come from?” and you can talk about how diamonds are formed. You can get excited and scientific about it in a simple way, then you can get them hooked. Or you say, “Do you know that men used to wear more jewelry than women?” You just go where you think you will grab them. That’s with any audience, but you have to think quick on your feet with kids to figure out what’s going to catch their attention. That’s why I used to use theater a lot, because they can’t ignore you when you’re dressed in a Victorian corset with a long dress and you’re talking about Victorian paintings or the wild west or cowboy art. You go with what you’ve got.
Sharon: What made you decide to go into this area? I would have been a little hesitant to go into such a new area.
Jan: It was interesting. As an art history major, when I graduated as an undergraduate, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do next. I knew I didn’t want to pursue and get into the Ph.D. track. I’m more of a people person and not a lone researcher. I really didn’t know what my options were. I tried to apply for internships around the country at art museums. I always felt very comfortable growing up in New York City. Going into an art museum was something we did. I didn’t get any internships, except I did get one finally. It was an offer from the Smithsonian, but it was from the Department of Performing Arts. They noticed that I also had a theater degree, a minor. So, that’s how it started.
I was working for a wonderful woman who was really encouraging me. That was 1976, and it was the Festival of American Folklife on the Mall in D.C. It was big; it was a bicentennial year. This was normally a two-week folklife festival that happened every summer, but this was now all summer. We were talking, and she asked me, “What do you want to do?” and I said, “I have no idea once this is over.” She said, “Well, I know a couple of people who are starting this new graduate program over at GW, and it sounds like everything you’ve done. You were a camp counselor. You like to be around kids. You love theater. You love art. This sounds up your alley.”
I had no idea what museum education was, nor did most people, actually, and I wasn’t ready to go to grad school. Then, after a year of knocking around and not being able to find a decent job, I applied, and there you go. It’s funny how things happen. I don’t say it was an accident because maybe I was on a path. I know that was the path I was on, but it was just something new, and it fit. When I started looking into the program, it was just the right amount of time where I could finish a degree, and I was already living in Washington, D.C. at that point, so it was perfect.
Sharon: Based on all that and from everything you’ve told us, what is your favorite period of jewelry?
Jan: That’s a tough one. I’m an equal opportunity jewelry lover, everything from fine to vintage and costume. I do have a soft spot for Art Deco jewelry. I do like that, but coming from my background as a museum educator, I wasn’t supposed to specialize in one period because I had to work with every exhibition that came along. I had to be a fast study and cram. I had to be a good generalist, and I had to be knowledgeable enough so I could communicate with curators in their areas of specialty so they would respect my body of knowledge. I think I’ve always felt like I needed to be knowledgeable about every area.
I get to specialize when I do a particular lecture. That’s when I can do a deep dive: when I’m preparing a talk in a specific jewelry area. I like all different time periods for different reasons, but it’s probably the one I just finished researching.
Sharon: You wrote that if you have another book, you’ll be able to rectify the mistakes you made in the first one.
Jan: I didn’t know how you even begin writing a book and how you go about getting it published and all of that. I’ve learned a lot since then, believe me; the good, the bad and the ugly, and all the little things. I didn’t know you’re supposed to find the endorsements for the back of your book even before it goes to the designer, or even making decisions about what color paper or what font. I had to know all the practical sides of publishing and making a book happen strictly because I self-publish, but with a company I worked with to make it all happen. I didn’t know how important social media was, which I never wanted to get involved with. That was a lot of the learning curve.
I had to be more knowledgeable about how to go about picking the people to work with because I literally went in blind. I just didn’t know. I went to one conference locally when I thought about putting this into a book. I made notes, and fortunately I found a local lawyer who was a copyright attorney. He helped me deal with that. Now, I know all that stuff, which is probably a bad thing because I know enough that I don’t know if I want to go through this again. It’s hard. It’s really hard. I don’t care what people tell you. If you go with a traditional publisher, there are goods and bads. If you go with self-publishing, there are goods and bads. I always said, when things started happening, I just wanted to write a book; that’s all I wanted. I was like, “I’ve got to jump through these hurdles and hoops.”
I had a bad experience with the first publisher of my book, and it was very painful. Fortunately, now it’s back out there with a different publisher, but it was a hard lesson to learn when your publisher goes AWOL and takes all your digital files and scams you out of all your royalties for two years. It’s ugly. I’m not the only person this has ever happened to, I’m sure, but it kind of burns you. I think that’s why when people say, “Are you going to write a new book?” I was hesitant to answer. I just don’t know if after all that, I wanted to go through anything like that again. But hopefully I’ve learned. I know more people and I can reach out to more people to put me on a different path than what I went on last time.
Sharon: It sounds like a very interesting subject. I don’t know about writing a whole book.
Jan: You’re lucky.
Sharon: I’m anxious to read it. Besides the diamonds, do you have anything else rolling around? What else do you have?
Jan: I think the reason the book got written is because it was such an emotional, important, personal story. It was cathartic for me to go through this and work out the emotions I’ve had for my entire life, growing up without a father and knowing so little about who he was. When I finished that—I laugh because literally, the book wasn’t even hot off the press when people started asking, “What’s your next book?” It’s like, “Can I please enjoy this one? It’s taken five-and-a-half years out of my life, from not even thinking I’d write a book to getting it to the editor, thank you very much.” I always said if I wrote another one, the idea and the need to write it would have to be as gripping for me.
Like I said earlier, I knew with first book that I couldn’t stop my brain from racing at two in the morning. I would have these ideas, and these thoughts and sentences would pop into my head. I would have organizational ideas in the middle of the night and they wouldn’t let me go. So, that would have to happen if I’m going to write another book. It has to be needing to come out. I have to get excited about it and I have to be invested in it. I’m getting closer. It depends on what’s happening in my life.
I’m still lecturing and doing things like that, but I’ve done a bunch of research trips. I have a couple more planned than I probably need to do, just to fill in my head. The hard thing is I’m thinking of a jewelry historical fiction. I’m not a fiction writer. I’m a non-fiction writer. I’m a historian. Trying to figure out how I can blend the history side of me and the truths with a little bit of fiction and make it all work, that’s why I’m struggling so much moving past where I am right now. I’m not sure how to do this. I know a wonderful, exciting history about this particular diamond. I know who owned it from one point to the last point we know it existed. It’s filling in the before and the after and the middle. How do you do all that?
I haven’t had another idea that’s as compelling to me. I think this particular diamond has been on my mind since the very first jewelry history lecture I’ve ever written. I can’t let it go. It’s stuck to me and I can’t shake it off. That’s why, if it’s another book, it probably will have to be this one, because it’s the only thing I can’t shake off.
Sharon: It sounds very interesting. I want to thank you for being with us today. We really appreciate it.
Jan: My pleasure.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jan Krulick-Belin
Jan Krulick-Belin, a museum and art consultant and art and jewelry historian, has more than forty years of experience at such institutions as the Corcoran Gallery of Art, Denver Art Museum, Beaumont (Texas) Art Museum, and Smithsonian Institution. Retired as director of education at the Phoenix Art Museum, she still works with museums, art organizations, and private collectors and served as guest curator at the Sylvia Plotkin Judaica Museum, Phoenix.
Additional Resources
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript
As an art and jewelry historian and museum educator, Jan Krulick-Belin was uniquely qualified to follow the surprising journey she went on to write her first book, “Love, Bill: Finding my Father Through Letters from World War II.” Bringing together her knowledge of World War II-era culture and her research skills, writing the book was a labor of love. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her tips for self-publishing; what sweetheart jewelry is and why it became so popular during World War II; and what it was like to be at the forefront of the museum education field. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
One of the eternal questions is whether one has to be a jewelry historian to appreciate the background of jewelry. Do you have to be a jeweler to appreciate jewelry? My guest, Jan Krulick-Belin, can answer all our questions. She is an independent museum educator and a jewelry historian. She is also the author of a book called “Love, Bill: Finding my Father Through Letters from World War II.” She most likely would not have been able to diligently research or write the book without being a historian. Being a historian was important to her becoming a museum educator, jewelry historian and an author. She’ll weave the pieces for us together in today’s jewelry journey. Jan, welcome to the podcast.
Jan: Thanks, Sharon. It’s great to be with you again.
Sharon: I’m glad you could make it this time. I know you’ve been traveling all over the world. Every year, you go somewhere exotic and wonderful.
Jan: We try.
Sharon: I know you came back from the Netherlands for the Vermeer exhibit.
Jan: The Johannes Vermeer exhibition, which was a once-in-a-lifetime exhibit that was amazing to have been able to bring together. I think it was 28 of the 36 or 37 known or attributed works by Johannes Vermeer. There will never be anything like it again, so I was happy to go. I’m also very fascinated by Dutch painting and have actually lectured on jewelry in Dutch paintings.
Sharon: Were you able to learn anything this time around?
Jan: I had the opportunity, as I said, to see a lot of his paintings together in one place, side by side, and I had the luxury to really look at them longer than most other opportunities. I think the way they did the exhibition, they encouraged looking. There was no audio guide. You weren’t allowed to go through on a tour. There was very little labeling. It was all about looking carefully. To me, looking is part of learning.
Sharon: As a jewelry historian and an art historian, which one was more important in this exhibit?
Jan: Probably the art historian part of it comes first because I think the focus of the exhibition was to understand this artist’s work, what made it different than other work at the same time period during the Dutch Golden Age. What was his focus? His interest in light? His interest in painting about love and relationships and religion or nonreligion? His interest in optics? All of those things came into play in understanding his work. I think the art history brain was working a little harder than the jewelry history brain.
Sharon: Do you think of art history as your vocation or your avocation, and jewelry history as an avocation?
Jan: That’s a good one. I’m trained academically as an art historian and a museum educator. That is what I spent most of my professional career doing. Jewelry history, as a field, came a little bit later, almost towards the end of my formal work in the museum setting. It was something I’ve always been interested in and attracted to. My mother loved jewelry. As a little girl, I can always remember diving into her jewelry drawers when she wasn’t paying attention. The attraction to jewelry has always been there.
In the last few years, working my last job as education direction at the Phoenix Art Museum, the museum did fundraisers every year which involved an art and antique show. That’s where I met some important people in the jewelry business who had booths there. In conversation with them, they told me about a program that was run every summer back east called Jewelry Camp. I think Sharon could smile because that’s where we first met. I decided that when I stopped working full-time, I would take the opportunity and attend. That was the beginning of diving into this offshoot of art history.
It’s all related. Art history involves not only paintings and sculptures, but the decorative arts. Jewelry is one of those decorative art forms, and I think they go hand-in-hand. It was an avocation at first, but now I’m lecturing in both, so I guess it’s now become a vocation. It’s gone around full circle.
Sharon: Do you think that once you write a book on jewelry and jewelry history, it will become more of a vocation?
Jan: Oh gosh, that’s a good question. The book you mentioned, my first and only book, had absolutely nothing to do with either one of these two things. People kept saying, “What’s your next book?” and I thought, “Oh, God.” It was such a process getting one book out that I thought, “That’s it,” but I have been playing around with an idea. I’ve been doing research towards it. I’m not sure yet if I’ll ever bring it to fruition, but it does relate to art history and jewelry history, so it’s more in my wheelhouse. It’s more of an art historical, jewelry historical fiction. We’ll see how it turns out. It is based on an actual diamond that existed and disappeared shortly before World War II, when it was stolen in Paris. I’m playing with the idea. Maybe finally I can bring in all the things I’ve done professionally and for fun into my writing.
Sharon: That’s a fascinating book. I can’t wait to read it. It sounds like an interesting subject. You talked about the fact that you couldn’t have written the first book you wrote, “Love Bill.” You went through all your father’s—who you never met, who died when you were six.
Jan: Six, yes.
Sharon: How did being a historian play into that?
Jan: Number one, for the audience members who aren’t familiar with the book, being a historian and understanding basic research skills and diving into primary source documents and that type of thing was necessary. It never started out as a book. I joke about it when I speak to groups; I’m kind of an accidental author.
My dad did die when I was only six years old. A year or so before my mother passed, she mentioned that she had saved all the love letters he had written her from World War II and that she had been saving them for me. That was an interesting occurrence in and of itself because my mom hardly ever talked about my father growing up. I don’t know if it was grief or if she didn’t want to get into it. As I wandered down this lengthy path of family and family secrets, there were things she did not want me to find out about. Obviously, had I read all the letters in her presence before she passed, the questions and answers that she didn’t want to talk about probably would have had to come out. She gave me the letters when we were moving her into assisted living, and she made me promise I wouldn’t read them until after she was gone. It took about another five years for me to gather up the courage and the emotional want to sift through the letters.
It really started out as a journey of understanding who my father was. The more I got into it, my interest in visiting all the places he was stationed during the war grew, as well as my interest in trying to track down a very close friend he made while he was stationed in Morocco in North Africa at the very beginning of the Americans’ involvement in the war. I had all these crazy ideas of, “Oh, I’m going to find this man and his family,” blah, blah, blah. As I was going on this actual journey and doing the research to try to find this person and to learn more about my father’s time in the army and all of that—research, as I said—I was telling people the story. As the events were getting more and more interesting and crazy and incidental and miraculous, everybody was telling me what a great book it would be.
It’s all fun when people tell you, “Oh, you should write a book. It’s the easiest thing in the world to sit down and do.” In my professional career, I’ve done lots of writing, but not a book. I started warming to the idea. I have two nieces who are very special to me. They obviously never met their grandfather, and I decided it would be something I would do and give them a little bit of their legacy, as well as finally understanding my own legacy more. So, it did turn into a book and learning about that world and how you go about self-publishing and marketing and all of that. That was a whole new world for me. I always say now I divide my life into my author, World War II journey, and the other is my art and jewelry history world.
Sharon: You talked about something that I would have done if I had been writing this book, and that is putting it down and saying, “I can’t do it. Forget it.”
Jan: I can be a wonderful procrastinator. I think there is that element in all of us. In this time period, the journey began when I stopped working full time in the museum world. I was picking up projects and doing consulting. When somebody asked me to do a project, it was much easier to say yes to that because that was familiar, and then I could push the book aside. But after a number of years of constantly pushing it aside, every time I went back to it, I noticed that I’d lose my train of thought and my voice would change, and the author’s voice is so important in writing a book. So, I finally said, “O.K., that’s it. I’m not going to take any new projects. I’m going to do it,” and that’s what I did.
It’s like anything else. It’s a discipline. I literally sat down at my desk in the morning, just like I was going to work, from 8:30 or 9 in the morning until 5. I said, “O.K., if I get a page today, great. If I get 10 or 15 pages, even better.” That’s what people were telling me in the author world. A lot of writers I was meeting at author groups I got involved with here in the Phoenix area, they said you just push, and it’s not easy.
I do remember I had a wonderful professor in graduate school who actually was the founder of the museum education program at George Washington University, which I attended. One time I said to her, “This is hard,” when she gave a writing assignment. She goes, “Why did you ever think writing was easy?” It was like, “Boom!” It was a revelation to me. I just assumed that people who sat down and wrote books and articles and doctoral theses and all of that, they could just whip it out. It’s not like that. I was able to take a deep breath and go, “O.K., that’s what editors are for, so just do the best you can.” That’s what I did. I just pushed through.
Sharon: I remember when we first met, we were having breakfast and you told us about the idea for the book. I thought, “Oh, yeah, when I see it, I’ll believe it,” and you’ve written the book.
Jan: Yeah, it took a few years from the time we first met, but as I said, I just decided to do it at one point. You realize when you’re up in the middle of the night and you can’t shut off your brain and you have all these ideas going. It wouldn’t let me go.
In a way, I feel like my dad was sitting on my shoulder. The one thing I learned about him in working on the project was that he always wanted to be a writer himself. His dream was to own a bookstore. There’s this little part of me who felt like he was a part of the process. He was there guiding me. So many strange and wonderful things happened during that whole journey. I felt like he was there opening doors for me, things that were coincidental or almost miraculous, the things that would happen. I followed that path and those signposts until I finally had this finished project. It was exciting. Of all the things I’ve accomplished in my whole career at all levels, I think I’m proudest that I’ve published a book and it’s done well in terms of critical review.
Sharon: I give you a lot of credit.
Jan: Thank you.
Sharon: Do you think that’s related to your interest in sweetheart jewelry? First, explain what that is, then, does that have a connection?
Jan: The idea of sweetheart jewelry really started during World War I, but by World War II, it became a full-blown thing. During World War II, a lot of precious materials and metals and things like that were rationed for the war effort, things like pearls and crystals and rhinestones and diamonds. All of these things were unavailable due to the war and shortages, and there were enemy countries we couldn’t trade with anymore for some of those raw materials.
So, there was a new type of jewelry. Women’s clothing was rationed. Women were wearing very simple, very straight, very—shall we say—boring clothing during the war, and they felt that they needed to glam it up and jazz it up a bit. The type of jewelry that became very popular was whimsical and made with fun materials like plastics, Bakelite, wood, metals, fabrics, textiles. They were also buying and making and designing things with patriotic imagery. It was part of boosting morale in this country during the war. It was a way to lift your own spirits and look a little more glamorous or more fun in your dress. A lot of these things, because they were fairly inexpensive, were sold to raise money for the war effort. On the flip side, you could buy things here in the States, but GIs overseas were also able to pick up things that would say, “My sweetheart,” or “Mom,” those kinds for things, for the women in their lives back home.
It’s a really interesting type of jewelry. This time period was short-lived in a way, but it said a lot about who we were in America during the war and how we felt and what we thought about those servicemen overseas. Some of them are really fun. Maybe a GI would buy a pin for his girlfriend, and it was a picture of a soldier with a heart that would say, “I’m taken,” just to remind men who were left behind in the States that she’s got somebody overseas. There are some wonderful themes. You’ll see a lot of “V for Victory” pins.
So, it was something I started learning about. My very first piece of sweetheart jewelry I found was actually by accident. I didn’t know what it was. It turned out it was what I now know is called a MacArthur Heart. It was a pin that actually wound up on the cover of Life Magazine. It was a large heart with a keyhole, and it was suspended from a skeleton key. It was red Bakelite, and as I said, it wound up on a model on the cover of Life Magazine in the early 40s. They said, “General MacArthur holds the key to our future and the key to our hearts and minds.”
I found it at a flea market; I didn’t know what it was. Someone at Jewelry Camp said, “Hey, that thing is really important. Do you know what it is?” I said, “A heart? I don’t know.” That’s what happened. So, I started looking it up, and I was fascinated by this whole area of jewelry. I have really started collecting it. Once I got involved in working on my dad’s story and on the book, I was even more into all things World War II. It was like two parts of my world and my life coming together in one thing, which was an interesting occurrence. I still collect it. Each of the different branches of the armed services had their own, even including the women’s armed services divisions. They each had their own type of sweetheart jewelry, and I’ve collected a lot. Dad was in the Army Air Corps, so I do focus a lot on Army Air Corps-related sweetheart jewelry, but other stuff as well if it is interesting or fun or something I don’t have already.
Sharon: Do you find that, since most people don’t know what it is, you find it at flea markets or antique stores?
Jan: All of the above. Once eBay came along, you can find a lot of things on eBay that required you to hunt in flea markets and antique malls and antique stores. A lot of people don’t know what they are, so quite often if I scan a case and see one, I will educate the person who has the booth because they don’t know what it is. You can find it anywhere else you’d go look for antique jewelry.
Sweetheart jewelry was also made by some of the high-end houses. Cartier is known for making a handful of very famous sweetheart jewels that they designed and sold around the war. Again, fine materials were difficult to come by, but when France was occupied by Germany, Cartier did a very subversive brooch called the Caged Bird Brooch. It is a little bird in a cage, and the colors of the stones on the bird were red, white and blue, the colors of the French flag. When France was liberated, they developed what they called the Freed Bird Brooch, which is the cage door swung open and the bird looks like it’s about to come out. Tiffany made some wonderful pieces as well. Gips did a great bracelet. They also made cuffs that had gold and silver stars on them.
We know during the war and still to this day, we talk about a gold star family. During the war, you would fly a banner in your window. You would have a blue star on the banner for each service person in your family overseas or serving in the armed services. A silver star would mean somebody was wounded in action, and a gold star meant you lost somebody who was killed in action. So, Tiffany made a cuff bracelet with gold stars on it. It wasn’t only the cheaper variety and costume jewelry, but that was more prevalent and much more pervasive during this time period.
Sharon: Did people know what they were buying?
Jan: Oh, yes. It was definitely a conscious decision. As I said, it was a way to support the war effort. It was a way to show the pride you had if you had a loved one in the service overseas. As I said, the GIs were able to buy this stuff. There was a lot of stuff being sold at canteens on the bases, particularly in the Pacific theater. There was a lot of mother-of-pearl jewelry that would say “Mother” on it or “Sweetheart.” There was wooden stuff or even trench art. Soldiers were making jewelry from artillery shells or whatever things they could get their hands on and sending them back home just send their love and say, “I’m here. I’m O.K. We’re doing our part.” It was very common knowledge then; not so much now.
Sharon: Now, people don’t know what it is.
Jan: I have a lecture on it because it is something that people are very interested in once you start telling them about it. I’ve had people come up to me and show me stuff they’ve had, that their mothers or grandmothers or aunts had and left, and they didn’t know what it was. I said, “Well, that’s a piece of sweetheart jewelry.” They had no idea what it was.
Sharon: That’s interesting. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sally Spencer
Obsessed with jewelry and gemstones, Sally Spencer has been designing and making jewelry since 1995. Her love affair with stones started when she was small, spending many happy hours collecting pebbles on the beach. The stones may have become more expensive over the years, but she is still fascinated by them and has studied both colored stones and diamonds with the Gemological Association of Great Britain (Gem-A). As a Fellow of Gem-A, she continues to love researching about gems and teaching gemstone courses. She is the author of “Jewelers’ Quick Reference Guide to Working with Gemstones,” written specifically for jewelers to live on the bench, ready to answer queries when designing or working on a piece of jewelry.
Additional Resources:
Sally's Website (Book available on her webisite)
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Gemology is such a vast field that it’s impossible for a jeweler to understand everything about the stones they’re working with. That’s where Sally Spencer comes in. As an educator and author, Sally is passionate about teaching jewelers and consumers about the qualities of the stones they’re buying—or think they’re buying. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the issue with mislabeled synthetic and treated stones; the one thing that every jeweler who works with stones must understand; and why she hopes to see more consumer protections and verification options for gemstones. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, we’re talking with Sally Spencer from the U.K. You may already know Sally if you’re a jeweler, or at least know of her. We are all going to learn about the rest today. Welcome back.
You have different kinds of jewelry on your Facebook page and on your website. Did you design it and then have someone make it or did you actually make it?
Sally: No, I’ve made everything there.
Sharon: There’s a lot. What is the symbolism or the importance of the marine life on everything?
Sally: My happy place is by the sea. I think that has influenced my work. The ammonites I use in my work, I found the originals of those on the beach off the South Coast of England. The others have evolved literally from my love of being by the sea, which is ironic because I live in landlocked Oxfordshire in the middle of England, a long way from the sea.
Sharon: I’m surprised you can still find things on the beach. In California, you don’t find anything except litter. That’s my understanding or my perception of it.
Sally: Particularly at Charmouth, the coast there is being eroded by storms. It’s a clay beach, so every time there’s a really high tide, it washes some of the clay away. That releases more material onto the beach, so it’s continually being topped up with amazing things.
Sharon: Tell us about the classes you teach. What are the subjects and when do you teach them?
Sally: At the moment, I’m concentrating on gemstone classes. I teach in-person gemstones for jewelers classes where we go through a little about what gemstones are, what gemology is. I give them an understanding of that, give them a bit of background on how gemstones react to light, how gemologists use that information. I give them the opportunity to try some of the gemologists’ instruments for themselves, the polariscope, the dichroscope, the spectroscope, so they can have a little flavor, a little feel for how gemologists identify gemstones.
Then we start looking into treatments and imitations and synthetics and man-made stones. I want them to be aware of what’s out there on the market, so they are more aware when they’re shopping and working with stones. I have boxes of stones that I take with me on these courses, so they get a chance to study not just the natural stone, but I also have contrasts. I have a natural and an imitation so they can see them side by side and understand the differences.
I have had so much fun with the online live Zoom classes, particularly with two wonderful ladies in Florida who were an absolute delight. I loved every second of my time with them. We do something similar. Obviously, I can’t do the hands-on bit to show them the gems in person, but I give them an understanding of durability of gemstones, why that’s important, why the correct identification of the gemstone is important. If you don’t know what you’re working with, you don’t know what will or won’t potentially survive while you’re working with it or when the customers are wearing it, and you can’t tell your customer what they’re buying.
I think it’s essential that we take more responsibility for that. In the U.K., we have hallmarking laws where you have to have pieces of jewelry independently assayed to determine exactly what pieces of metal are in there. Then they’re stamped with the appropriate marks to say they’ve been independently attested, and you have the guarantee that’s what the metal is. There’s nothing at all like that for gemstones, so I think it’s important for jewelers to take on the responsibility—maybe that’s not the right word, but to take up the mantle to say, “O.K., we have this protection for consumers with the metal we’re making the jewelry with, but what about the gemstones?”
I’m buying this gemstone cheap off the internet from who knows where. You say it’s a ruby. Great, I’m going to put it in this 18-karat gold ring. I’ll send the ring away to be assayed and independently tested to show that it’s 18-karat gold, and then I put this ruby into it and sell it as a ruby. It might be a ruby. It might be a glass-filled ruby that’s part glass, part ruby. It could be red spinel. It could be red tourmaline. All of them have different monetary values and different properties. There’s no consumer protection around the gemstone side of jewelry. So, I’d like to try and get jewelers thinking about that and get customers more aware of what they could be buying and asking questions. I want people to be asking more questions.
Sharon: I think that’s important. I usually don’t buy things with stones, but if you buy something, you think, “Is it pink? Is it green?” That’s what you think about. That’s all I think about with a stone. How big is it? That is the dealer’s responsibility.
Sally: It’s interesting, because as a customer, you think, “I love that piece of jewelry. I love that pink stone in it. It says it’s a pink sapphire. Great. The price equates to that quality of a pink sapphire. I love it. I’ll have it. It’s wonderful if it’s a pink sapphire.”
The thing that really distresses me is when I see retail jewelers suggesting things like tanzanite for an engagement ring. Now, tanzanite is a soft stone, so it doesn’t resist scratching very well. It’s not the toughest of stones and it cannot withstand day-to-day wear, which, if you’re fortunate in your marriage and you work hard at it, could be 40 or 50 years. A tanzanite just cannot survive that long being worn every day, whereas a diamond, everybody knows a diamond is hard. It’s more durable. Sapphires and rubies are hard, durable stones, wonderful engagement rings. Emeralds, not so good. They are not as hard, so they will scratch. They’re brittle, so they can get damaged. If you knock it, you’re likely to chip it. All these things are just more information.
Sharon: That’s important. Pictures of tanzanite are always gorgeous.
Sally: Just mouthwatering. Who wouldn’t want a tanzanite ring? Come on. They’re beautiful, but as a dress ring, what we used to call a cocktail ring, a going-out ring. Not an everyday, doing-everything-that-needs-to-be-done ring.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I never thought about it. I didn’t know that, but I’ve learned a lot and now I would think about it more. Your classes are very short. They’re one day or two days. It’s not like your signing up for six months. The picture you have online looks small, like they only have a few people in class, so they get individual attention. Is that true?
Sally: It seems. I wanted to keep them to a one-day class so if people needed to travel a distance, they didn’t have to pay for overnight accommodation. They could do it there and back in a day. I also wanted to keep class sizes smaller because there is a lot to look at, lots of questions, and I want to give people the best opportunity I can to learn as much as they can in that one day. I want to give them value for money for their day with me or their Zoom class with me.
Sharon: That’s good. I look at the classes and think, “Gosh, they look—not elementary, but wouldn’t a jeweler know all this?” They don’t, really. You teach the gemology or gemstone class. Do you teach any others? I can’t remember.
Sally: I’m sticking mainly to gemstones at the moment. I do a diamond and pearl day for people who’ve done gemstones for jewelers because there’s too much to include diamonds in that day. We touch on it briefly when we talk about synthetic gemstones, but you know how enormous a subject gemology is. It is vast. So, I’ve put together a diamond and pearl day to give jewelers an overview of that classic combination of gemstones as well.
Sharon: They would have to have the diamond class, but couldn’t you just have a pearl class? There’s so much to learn about pearls.
Sally: There’s a huge amount to learn about pearls. I don’t know a lot about pearls. Because gemology is such a vast subject, you tend to find that gemologists specialize in a particular area because it is so huge. You can’t cover the whole range of the subject in any text. I don’t think it’s physically or mentally possible. Fine gemologists tend to focus on a certain area. For me, it’s the more unusual stones, getting into gemology for jewelers, but also the less familiar stones. They’re not necessarily the expensive stones that are coming onto the market, but things like Kyaikto granite, which is granite from Kyaikto Mountain. They weren’t very exciting when they named it, but it has what appear to be ink spots within it. These are azurite crystals that developed in gaps in the granite after the granite formed. It’s beautiful, and being a granite, it’s hard-wearing; it’s a tough stone.
Traditional gemologists focus on the traditional, crystalline, higher-value stones, whereas my interest, as much as I love them—I mean, who wouldn’t? They are sparkly. But I do love these unusual stones as well, and the stones are more accessible price point-wise for jewelers just coming into the trade or who want to do it as a hobby. They don’t want to spend a fortune on cut stones but want something a little bit different.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I was reading through what you said. There are several stones I’d never heard of before, so I thought, “Oh, my gosh!” Now, if you told me something is Kyaikto granite, that sounds awful. I would probably say, “Thanks, but no thanks. It sounds awful.” When you explain it, it sounds very pretty, or at least worth looking at again. But it’s the name.
Sally: It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think a lot of jewelers by their very nature are visual creatures. We have an appreciation, and we can see something better than we can understand if it’s written down or explained further. We like the visual. If you saw or were glancing around wondering if I happen to have a piece of Kyaikto granite, I don’t. They’re all stashed away somewhere, unfortunately. Otherwise, I would have a piece here to show you.
I think for gemstones, particularly the more unusual ones, it’s not just the stone itself, but it’s the story behind it or where it came from or how it formed. There’s usually something in the background that’s a little bit different, an interesting combination of minerals that hasn’t traditionally been thought of as a gemstone until someone thought, “Hang on a minute. That’s quite pretty. If we cut it small enough and polish it in this way, that would look great in a piece of jewelry.”
Sharon: That’s interesting. You might look at the visual. I like to hear the backstory. “O.K., it came from this fountain, and this is what it is.” Where do you find these stones? You exhibit or sell at about six shows a year. It seems like at least six, so where do you find all the material? Do you buy for other people, or do you have an inventory? What do you do?
Sally: I have a few dealers I work with. Over the years, I’ve started with the more affordable stones for those learning to make jewelry. I was thinking this year that I would like to change the focus slightly and focus on the more phenomenal gems. You can’t necessarily sell these very easily over the internet because a phenomenal gemstone interacts with light in a particular way. It has a unique appearance. This would be something like a star stone. You have seen a star sapphire or a star ruby or a cat’s eye stone, where if you tilt it back and forth, the cat eye moves across the surface of the stone. I like stones with unusual inclusions. There are some feldspar that have hematite and ilmenite inclusions, but when the light reflects off them, you get almost a rainbow effect off these particular, perfectly-shaped inclusions. I think you need to see these in person for them to show you what they do, which you can’t really capture and sell over the internet.
I would like to introduce more jewelers to these types of stones and give them confidence to try them. I put some unusual stones in the “Jeweler’s Quick Reference Guide,” some of the less common stones, because I wanted to give jewelers more confidence so if they came across them when they were out shopping for gemstones, they wouldn’t walk by thinking, “Never heard of it. Don’t know if it would survive. Don’t know what I could do with it. I’ll leave it. Thanks very much.” Whereas if they have an understanding of its durability and whether it may or may not survive, they might think, “That is a really unusual stone. Let’s give it a go.” Then they can share that information with their customers. Once again, we’re getting more information out. It’s all about the information.
Sharon: I think of people who care about the stone and don’t care about anything else. At the shows, are people mostly looking for gems for their own work? Why do they come?
Sally: These particular shows are a combination of jewelers, gemologists, crystal healers, and mineral and gemstone collectors, but they all have this interest and this passion in gemstones, crystals, rocks, minerals. I’ve been selling the stones, I would say, 40 percent to fellow gemologists who think, “I love that stone. I have to have it,” and 60 percent to fellow jewelers thinking, “I know what I’m going to make with that stone and it’s going to be amazing.” It’s interesting that I’m talking to and sharing with both sides of me. I’m a Gemini, and I feel I am a true Gemini because I am half jeweler, half gemologist.
Sharon: If people want to order the book in the States, they can’t order it directly. Can you ship it directly to the States? I thought there was some catch.
Sally: We can ship it. I can ship it to a lot of countries. I’m delighted to say we have a distributor in the States now, so people can buy a copy direct from them. They are Brickyard Books. I’m doubting myself if that’s what they’re called.
Sharon: We’ll list it with the podcast. I’ll have the information.
Sally: Thank you. Also, we’ve just gotten a distributor in Europe in the Netherlands called Bijou Moderne. People can now buy copies in Europe without having to get them shipped across from the U.K. It’s very exciting.
Sharon: So, you’re ready for your next book. We’ll have you back on when that one is published.
Sally: Thank you.
Sharon: Thank you so much. We’ve really learned a lot.
Sally: Thank you so much for having me. I’ve really enjoyed it.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sally Spencer
Obsessed with jewelry and gemstones, Sally Spencer has been designing and making jewelry since 1995. Her love affair with stones started when she was small, spending many happy hours collecting pebbles on the beach. The stones may have become more expensive over the years, but she is still fascinated by them and has studied both colored stones and diamonds with the Gemological Association of Great Britain (Gem-A). As a Fellow of Gem-A, she continues to love researching about gems and teaching gemstone courses. She is the author of “Jewelers’ Quick Reference Guide to Working with Gemstones,” written specifically for jewelers to live on the bench, ready to answer queries when designing or working on a piece of jewelry.
Additional Resources:
Sally's Website (Book available on her webisite)
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Gemology is such a vast field that it’s impossible for a jeweler to understand everything about the stones they’re working with. That’s where Sally Spencer comes in. As an educator and author, Sally is passionate about teaching jewelers and consumers about the qualities of the stones they’re buying—or think they’re buying. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the issue with mislabeled synthetic and treated stones; the one thing that every jeweler who works with stones must understand; and why she hopes to see more consumer protections and verification options for gemstones. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, we’re talking with Sally Spencer from the U.K. You may already know Sally if you’re a jeweler. You may have her most recent publication, “Jeweler’s Quick Reference Guide to Working with Gemstones.” You may have that on your worktable right now. You may know Sally because, if you were a jeweler and you got into trouble with any kind of stone—and by that, I mean perhaps you accepted a stone from a client but you really didn’t know about the stone—you might call Sally and ask her if it can be fixed or if they should buy a completely new stone, depending on what it is. You may have seen Sally at fairs she attends where she exhibits her wares. Perhaps you’ve taken one of her classes and know her through that. In any event, you’ve probably heard of Sally Spencer or at least know of her. We are all going to learn about the rest today.
Sally, you’re the author of “Jeweler’s Quick Reference Guide to Working with Gemstones.” I think I read that title several times. Did you think about writing the book for a long time before you actually wrote it?
Sally: I did. Thanks for having me on with you today. I’m looking forward to chatting gemstones with you.
Sharon: I’m so glad we connected.
Sally: I did think about the book for a while. It was in the back of my mind because, as I was teaching jewelers to make jewelry, I would occasionally see, out of the corner of my eye, that they were about to do something with a gemstone that was not going to land well for that gemstone. I kept thinking, “If they just had a little bit of gemological knowledge, they wouldn’t attempt to do that.” I wanted to know, over the years, how many gemstones are inadvertently destroyed by jewelers not having that extra bit of information that could make their life easier, and potentially save them money as well by not having to buy a replacement stone.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear you say that jewelers don’t know that much about gemstones. I shouldn’t be surprised. I’ve taken classes where they teach you about diamonds but nothing else. I am just surprised that jewelers don’t know about gemstones, or at least they don’t find out what they’re working with before they use it. I would be afraid to give one of my precious pieces to somebody and say, “Fix it,” when they don’t know what they’re working with.
Sally: It is a modern field. I learned a lot about gemstones over the years, but there is so much more to learn. Even now that I have my qualifications, every day I learn something new. Every day I discover something about a gemstone, and that sends me down a different path to research something else, not necessarily about that gemstone. It might be about another one within its family. It's a massive, massive subject.
Jewelers don’t need to be gemologists. They don’t necessarily need to know crystal structures or how stones interact with light or different inclusions, but the one thing they really do need to be more aware of is the durability of a gemstone. That covers its hardness, which is its resistance to scratching; its toughness, which is its resistance to breaking under pressure; and its stability. It will all change if it’s subjected to chemicals or heat or ultraviolet light.
I think, as a minimum, that should be taught to jewelers, particularly in the university courses where they’re gaining a lot of information about making jewelry. That will take them to the next level and give them an even greater understanding and readiness for when they’re out there making their own pieces of jewelry.
Sharon: That’s a good point. I have learned about crystal structure at a top level, but I’ve never had to think about it, really. Would you say that writing the book has increased your business?
Sally: It changed my business. It changed my focus. It came about during all the lockdowns with Covid because, like everyone else, everything stopped. All my classes, all my shows stopped. I have worked all the time since I left school, and I didn’t like being stuck, twiddling my thumbs wondering, “What do I do? I don’t understand. What’s going on?” I thought I needed something to focus on. While the world around us was going completely crazy, I needed something to focus on and lose myself in for a little bit of mental clarity and mental peace. I thought about this book I’d been thinking about off and on over the years, and I thought, “Well, let’s make a start.”
Every day I would sit down at the computer and sit down with my books, do more research and start planning it out. Then I got all the information together and looked at how I wanted to lay it out. As a bench jeweler, what would be quick and easy to use? So, then I worked on the layout. There was a group of five of us who were all jewelers. I would say to the four other amazing ladies over Zoom or email, “Does this make sense? Do you understand what I’m trying to say here?” None of them are gemologists, so I knew they were looking at it purely as jewelers. Then I had the entertaining time—entertaining is not the right word—it was especially frustrating and drove me absolutely crackers—of trying to photograph all the different stones I wanted to illustrate in the book because, as we were in the middle of Covid, I couldn’t go anywhere or see anyone. I didn’t know who to contact, and I thought, “I’m just going to have to get on and do this myself.”
By the end of the lockdowns, I had pulled together the quick reference guide. I still can’t quite believe I did it, that I actually got to the end and got it printed and it’s out there. The thing I find astonishing—and I almost have to pinch myself—is that it’s being used in over 20 countries. I just find that mind-blowing. It’s out there doing what I hoped it would do, sitting on jewelers’ benches. If they’re sat there working a stone with a bit of heat, if it’s all going to go wrong, they can very quickly look in the book and have some reassurance of “No, just don’t,” or “Yeah, that will work. That’s fine.”
I still can’t believe it, Sharon, but the whole experience during the lockdowns altered the course of the business. It took my focus away from making jewelry to thinking, “I really want to help other jewelers understand stones better.” Then taking it a step further, I want them to understand what they’re buying. There are some absolute horrors out there being sold, where treatments aren’t being disclosed. This is where a gemstone has been artificially altered by man to improve its color or its clarity or its durability, which is absolutely fine. I have no problem with that at all. What I don’t like is when people do it and they don’t disclose it. They don’t tell the person who’s buying stones from them, and that trickles on to their customer because if the jeweler doesn’t know, they can’t tell their customer. I would really like to get jewelers and their customers more aware of the big, wide world of gemstones and give them a little bit of insight into it. Sorry, that was an extremely long answer.
Sharon: No, it’s a good answer. As reality settles in and you realize you wrote this book, have you been thinking about a second edition or a different book?
Sally: I am working on a book about buying gemstones. There are some incredible books on the market. I have bookshelves full of wonderful books about gemstones. The information that’s in “Jeweler’s Quick Reference Guide” is out there, but it’s buried deep in lots of different textbooks. If you’ve sat at the bench, time is money, and even as a jeweler, you don’t necessarily have these gemology books. You just want to know, “Can I do this?”
There are incredible books about buying gemstones, but I want to do a similar, quick-reference guide to buying gemstones to give people a heads up. I can’t make them gemologists through osmosis through a book; I really wish I could, but I can hopefully give enough information that they will feel confident to say to somebody, “Is this gemstone treated?” and if the person they’re buying it from says, “I have no idea. What do you mean?” or, “It doesn’t matter,” that in itself tells me something about the person they’re buying it from. They’re making a far more informed purchase than just trusting and believing what they’re being told what’s in front of them. Without this little bit of background knowledge, they wouldn’t necessarily know to question it.
Sharon: Do they sometimes call you before they purchase something? Do they call you and say they don’t know?
Sally: No. It’s more trying to get the information out there at the moment, writing magazine articles. You very kindly invited me on your podcast. Just trying to get this information out there to make people more aware. Doing talks. I love doing talks. I can talk for hours about gemstones. It takes a while to shut me up.
Sharon: We have a lot of time. You have an FGA and a DGA. Are they licensed separately? What are they?
Sally: When I wanted to learn more about gemstones in a more structured way, rather than doing bits of ad hoc research myself over the years, I looked into qualifications. I decided to study with The Gemological Association of Great Britain, and the FGA initials are a Fellow of the Gemological Association of Great Britain. I studied and passed their colored stones gemology declaimer. The DGA is their diamonds declaimer. I studied and passed that one first because I don’t like chemistry, and I knew there was going to be some chemistry involved in this. I thought, “Diamonds, carbon. I can cope with one chemical element. Let’s go for diamonds. Let’s give that a go.” They chucked in a little bit of nitrogen and a little bit of boron, and I thought, “Hey, I’ve tackled three. I’m doing well.”
I had the most amazing tutor. She gave me so much confidence and pleasure in my studying that I thought, “You know what? I’m going to tackle the colored stores. I’m going to tackle all these other chemical elements that I’m not very good at. I’m just going to go for it.” I was fortunate enough to have her as my tutor for the first year of that course as well. A wonderful, wonderful lady. I can’t thank her enough.
Sharon: Did you have to go to the Gemological Association and take their basic course before the diamonds and colored stones?
Sally: I did online distance learning because I’m some distance from the physical building of Gem-A. That was quite a challenge. You had to be very disciplined and sit down and study the set material for the week because if you didn’t, you could quickly fall behind. Then we did intensive lab courses where we went in and did an intensive week studying the stones, putting into practice all the theory we’d been learning. Then on Saturday, we had the exam. They were intensive weeks.
Sharon: I bet. I know here with the colored stone tests, they give you three stones, let’s say—I don’t remember—but you do it once and that’s it. You get it right or you get it wrong and that’s it. You don’t do it again. It’s that simple.
Sally: You can retake the exam again, but you have to wait. I can’t remember now. I think you have to wait until the next round of exams, which for many means they have to wait six months. It reminded me why I disliked exams at school. When I got to the end of them, I must admit I said, “That’s it. I don’t want to do another exam again.” I find them quite stressful. I think that is the best way of putting it. I put myself under a lot of pressure, but I’m pleased to say I got through them all intact.
Sharon: It sounds like you accomplished a lot. I don’t work in the business, so I can’t imagine learning the stones without being somebody who works with them every day or, like you said, knows what the problem is. Were you already teaching classes when you did this?
Sally: At the time, I was teaching jewelry making in a school as part of a GCSE and A-level design and technology class. I was teaching 14- to 18-year-olds, which was so much fun. It made me look at teaching in a completely different way. Being around them as they discovered they could make something and it looked good, and then they could wear it with pride, was an incredible feeling. I think four or five of them have followed me into the industry. I cannot tell you how proud I am of them all. They are all amazing. It was such a privilege to be there as they discovered a shared passion for jewelry. It was incredible.
Sharon: I was taken by a word you used in your literature, that you had a passion for gems and gemstones. To me, that’s interesting, but it’s different than jewelry. Usually, people say they have a passion for jewelry and the gemstone comes along with it, but you just look at the gemstone. What’s the difference between a gem and a gemstone, anything?
Sally: No. It’s just an abbreviation, a shortened word. I’m generally not quite sure. I was trying to think back whether it was jewelry first or gemstones first. I think it was possibly gemstones first, then the jewelry started to overtake the gemstones. Then the gemstones fed into the jewelry and have now ultimately leapfrogged the jewelry in the cabinet.
Sharon: When did you start teaching courses on gems? After you wrote the book or during the book?
Sally: Before. I knew that jewelers needed a little more information, so I started trying to give introduction to gemology classes to raise their awareness. Oh, my word, I had so much fun with those, so I started doing that. It was pretty much as I finished my qualifications because I wanted to share the information and get it out there.
Sharon: When you say you had fun, why was it fun?
Sally: Watching them discover what gemstones do and how they react and interact with light. You’ve done your GIA, haven’t you?
Sharon: I haven’t taken the test, but yes.
Sally: So you know that when you look at a piece of glass through a polariscope—which is a piece of equipment that has a light source at the bottom, and then it has cross-polarizing filters so it makes the light wave go in one direction coming up through the bottom filter. Then you cross the top filter so it can’t get through, and then you put a gemstone in between the two and move it around and see how it alters the path of light or interacts with light. It was hearing them saying, “Oh, wow, look at this!” To see a piece of glass in there, showing its strain with this anomalous extinction, if it’s got those rising snakes of black going through, that is just amazing. And showing them dichroic stems with a dichroscope.
Sharon: That’s probably why I didn’t continue. I feel like some people will get the detail and some people don’t. I just don’t. Were you teaching experienced people?
Sally: They weren’t experienced gemologists, but they were jewelers. Some of them were complete beginners at jewelry making; some of them were very experienced jewelers.
Sharon: They made things, but they didn’t know anything about the stones that were in them.
Sally: Yes. They knew what they bought, but they weren’t necessarily aware of the durability properties of the stones, whether it would survive being put in a ring or whether it was softer and less durable and it would better in a pair of earrings. They had to hope they bought from reputable dealers, that the stones were what they were being told they were.
Sharon: Do people call you afterwards and say, “I think I ruined this,” or “I did ruin this. What I should I do next time? What did I do wrong?”
Sally: I do get questions. The biggest question I get asked is, “I had a moment while setting the stone, and I’ve either cracked it or scratched it. What can I do?” The one thing I’ve resisted delving too deeply into is the black art of lapidary, the stonecutters craft, because I have a horrible feeling that if I did start delving into that, I would try to set up another workshop. I would get lots more equipment down there. So, I’m resisting it at the moment, but I don’t have the knowledge to know how they could polish out a scratch in a particular material. At that point, I have to point them to a lapidary who is far more qualified to answer that question.
Sharon: Is that what you call a jeweler who also knows gemology, a lapidary? I know what a lapidary is. Yeah, you would need somebody who can look at something and be able to fix it.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Barbara Lo Bianco
Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists’ jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript
Barbara Lo Bianco’s mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she’s trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
We’ve had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor. Welcome back.
I look at art. I give a cursory glance at the art that might not be at a gallery, let’s say, but at a jewelry store. It’s decoration, but it’s not to sell.
Barbara: You see a lot of restaurants in Milan that exhibit artworks by artists that are just there for the exhibition, so I think Italians are more acquainted with it. They do see it, and they might even ask questions because it’s another environment. They’re talking to somebody that is not doing that for business. They knew I was not going to sell to them. I was just saying, “You like it? Look, this is the business card of the artist. Just call him.” They feel free to ask him questions about it.
Sharon: That is different. It’s different from the experience I’ve had here. How do you divide historical contemporary from contemporary? I was surprised to see on your website what I would consider contemporary, but they were maybe historical. You had some Dalí. I can’t remember exactly.
Barbara: Yeah, we have Dalí. You cannot say it’s contemporary. He’s dead, so I cannot work with him anymore, unfortunately. He was last century. He’s modern; he’s not contemporary. There is this small distinction between modern and contemporary. There are some artists that are modern and others that are contemporary. Contemporaries are the ones that are living now and the ones that are working still. Those who are no longer working cannot be called contemporary. They are modern, yes, but they’re not contemporary.
Then there are some that are contemporary, but they’re already established. Some others are emergent or mid-career. What I’m focusing on now is mid-career, moving a little bit towards established. I’m between that field. I don’t do emerging, and I don’t do contemporary jewels. I do contemporary art, yes.
Sharon: It seems like a tremendous incentive. They show their art and a jewel or two they have made for you, and they talk with people who are aficionados.
Barbara: Yes, what is nice is that when we finish the project with the artist, we do an exhibition. I do exhibit works the artist is usually known for so you can recognize his style; you can recognize his message alongside the jewels he or she created. You can see the starting point or the inspiration point and the actual work they did, the new project, which is not often just a small reduction. It is something else, but you can still recognize the style and the message of the artist.
They do come to the exhibition, of course; they do speak with the people, but during the period of the exhibition, I always try to organize another talk or some sort of small event by appointment. There are 20, 40 people at most, so they get a chance to talk with the artist and ask them questions if they want—even if, most of the time, artists like to have their works speak for them. They are not so keen on speaking, especially in a larger group. In a small group, it works better.
Sharon: Do people see the connection?
Barbara: Yes, once they see them outside, they do. You do understand it. If you see the work by itself, it probably is not that easy, but if you see the works alongside the jewels, you do see the same end, the same meaning. It is like a speech that works within different media.
Sharon: Would you give us an example where you saw the connection?
Barbara: For example, there is an artist we work with. She made a sculpture which is about two meters high. It was treated as if it were a mirror in a bronze cage in front that looked like a medieval prison. So, you walk in front of this sculpture and suddenly you see yourself within a prison. You should start asking yourself, “Am I free or not? Why do I see myself within a cage?”
The piece of work is called The Golden Cage, because even if we are free, we are actually closed in a golden cage, more or less, because of all the limitations we give ourselves, because of all the routine, because of all the relations we have, because of all the boundaries we give ourselves, because of where our family or our business or our everyday life leads us. We wanted to give the same idea within a jewel.
It was quite hard because of the sizes. You cannot reflect yourself entirely within a cage. We tried and it came out very nice, but then we had an idea, “O.K., why don’t we put something precious in it?” We started putting in a precious stone, and that gave the message. The stone doesn’t get any light from anywhere, so it doesn’t follow the rules of jewelry where you have to give light to stone; you have to embellish it; you have to make it shiny; you have to show that it’s worth it. In this case, we put this stone within a cage, and it doesn’t get any light from anywhere. You can see it because it’s huge. The message is no matter how beautiful you are, you can never shine if you are within a cage. So, you get the same feeling; you get the same taste of the poetry of the artist, but in a different way.
Sharon: Do the artists you exhibit have favorite stones that they work with more than others?
Barbara: It depends. Some of them don’t want to work with any type of stone. Some work with stone. It depends. They are totally free. Another one is Alex Pinna. His bigger sculptures are usually made in big rope, like the ones for boats and other ships. We made the jewels with ebony, gold, silver, even rope. They give exactly the same feeling of his sculptures but made in a different way and with different shapes. He makes mixed sculptures. He’s a little bit individual. He makes these very thin human beings, but not in detail, that are sort of waiting for something that will happen or just happened; you don’t know. He captured exactly the same sense of being suspended in his sculptures and in his jewels.
Sharon: Do you tell the artist what you’re looking for? Do you tell them, “I want bracelets”?
Barbara: No.
Sharon: You don’t tell them. They have free reign.
Barbara: I tell them, “Don’t try to do what is easy; try to do what you think would be good, and leave it to me and the goldsmith to try to figure out the way to realize it. Don’t go for the easy thing.” The medallion would be the easiest way, but it’s banal; it’s something that has been seen tons of times. I think that in some way, art has to go beyond, has to go a little bit further. That’s what I tell them.
Sharon: It’s in your name, Beyond Sculpture.
Barbara: Yeah, that’s right.
Sharon: When I hear the word unique, it means I won’t see anything like it. Is that different at your gallery?
Barbara: No, that’s right. We work with unique pieces, unique within a series, or we work with very small editions. That means if it is unique, it is just one piece and that’s it. No way are we ever going to have another one again. If it is unique within a series—for example, we worked with one artist that made 13 rings which were all similar, but all very different. They are unique within a series. The series is of those 13 rings, but they are all different from one another. They differ in color. They differ in material. They are different in treatment. They are different because one might be made with enamel; the other might be without. It depends.
Otherwise, it can be a small series. We usually work with eight pieces because in the sculpture world it can still be defined as unique, but we do declare that it is one out of eight or two out of eight. In some cases, we talk with the artist, especially if they want to make the price a little bit lower. We might be working with a series of 20 or 30. In three cases, we did something for charity, so we worked in a series of 99.
Sharon: Do your artists care if it’s a unique piece? Is it important to them that they have a small series of 12 or eight?
Barbara: Some of them do want to keep it unique or in a very small series because that’s how they work with their art. Some others don’t mind. For example, Emilio Isgrò, who is one of the most accredited artists in Italy now, didn’t mind working with the larger series. So, we worked with 30 pieces. He doesn’t really mind. If it helps spread it and makes it something people would wear more, let’s do it. It depends.
Sharon: Do your clients come from all over Europe or from Italy?
Barbara: We have clients from Japan, from the U.S., from Canada, from the U.K., Belgium. We do work everywhere because with the technologies now, that’s a little bit easier. With some clients, they ask us to ship it. We wear it and do some videos to show how the ring looks or how the necklace looks, and then we ship it. We are doing some fairs. Last year we did Basel, the design fair. We had great contacts and clients from all over the world. It depends.
Sharon: You did Design Basel?
Barbara: Sorry if I interrupted you. Actually, I might say that more clients are foreigners than Italians. The Italians are still a little bit more toward traditional jewels.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear that.
Barbara: Yes, there’s still not too much of a culture for artist jewelry.
Sharon: Do you see that changing?
Barbara: There’s a little bit more interest, but it’s still quite hard because in Italy there’s the tradition. Jewelry is often a present, and jewels by artists is something you buy for yourself because it’s a liaison between you and the artist and the piece of art. Usually if somebody gives it to you, it’s because they know you very well; they know you like that artist. Otherwise, no. It is a little bit harder that way. Italian women especially don’t buy too many jewels by themselves.
Sharon: So, most of the jewelry you’re seeing is run of the mill, the kind you’d give as a gift. It’s not what you carry.
Barbara: Yeah.
Sharon: O.K.
Barbara: What were you asking before?
Sharon: I was just going to ask what your dream would be for the business, what the next step is.
Barbara: The next step is to keep working with major artists. The thing I would really like is to make it easier to exhibit at fairs. Last year, as I was telling you, we exhibited at Basel, but we were in the bazaar in the pavilion, because the business was considered an applied art, which I don’t think is fair. It is art. It is just a small size that can be worn. The same artists that were exhibiting their jewelry, they were in the art pavilion with other works of art. Why can’t they stay together? That’s one thing.
Another thing is that they often tell me, “No, you have to exhibit either the piece of art or the jewelry,” and I don’t see why. Art should have no limits. If it is an art exhibit, it is art. That’s something I’m really trying to make the curator of the fairs understand, but it’s hard.
Sharon: That sounds like a big hurdle, a big one to get over and get past.
Barbara: Yeah, I don’t see why. We had pieces from artists and their other artwork was on the other side. We had Gilardi, and Gilardi was on the other side. Why can’t they be in the same space, in the same location? Applied art doesn’t mean it’s less valuable than normal art.
Sharon: That’s interesting. It’s been about four years since the first time we talked to you. I hope by the next time, you will have resolved a lot of these issues.
Barbara: Thank you. I’ll try.
Sharon: Thank you very much.
Barbara: I’ll keep trying. Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure to see you again.
Sharon: It’s nice to see you. Thank you. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Barbara Lo Bianco
Barbara Lo Bianco is the CEO and Owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, Italy. An art enthusiast with a long-time passion for artist jewelry, Barbara opened BABS in October 2018. As the first gallery in Italy dedicated to artists’ jewels, BABS collaborates with contemporary artists to create wearable art.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript
Barbara Lo Bianco’s mission is to smash the arbitrary line that divides art and jewelry. As owner of BABS (Before Art Beyond Sculpture) Art Gallery in Milan, she works with fine artists to create their first pieces of jewelry and translate their vision to a new medium, breaking all the rules of what art or jewelry are supposed to be. Barbara joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she’s trying to change the way art jewelry is displayed at fairs; the types of artists she likes to represent; and some of her favorite pieces from BABS. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
We’ve had a lot of entrepreneurs on The Jewelry Journey. Barbara Lo Bianco is an entrepreneur, but in a different category. Her forays before art and jewelry and having a gallery were in unrelated fields. She was involved in a fitness center and was a real estate investor, but her passion has always been in art and jewelry. BABS stands for Beyond Art Before Sculpture. She opened a gallery which showcases artists she knew. They were doing sculpture, but she convinced them to do jewelry. They didn’t know their creativity was also in this area until she gave them the space and encouragement to do it. We’ll hear all about her art gallery today.
Barbara: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me again.
Sharon: I’m so glad that we connected. Why did you decide to locate in Milan?
Barbara: It’s very normal. It’s just that I live here. It’s the easiest thing. Milan has a long tradition in artist jewelry. Actually, artist jewelry in Italy started in Rome right after World War II, when some of the sculptors were commissioned to do unique pieces in order to recreate an interest in our jewelry, which was not something necessary right after the war, when everything had to be reconstructed again. So, you had to make jewelry that was a little bit different.
Then, in the 60s, it moved to Milan. In Milan, there was GEM by Montebello, who has been the biggest and most famous editor of jewelry by artists in Italy. They worked with more than 50 artists and created more than 200 jewelry pieces. So, there is a tradition, but there had never been a gallery doing that. So, I was in Milan. Why not? Actually, I’m still the only gallery in Italy.
Sharon: In Italy?
Barbara: Yes.
Sharon: I’m thinking about Thereza Pedrosa. She gathers pieces she likes, not pieces that have been commissioned for the gallery.
Barbara: Yeah, this is a little bit different. We don’t focus on contemporary; we focus on jewels made by artists, visual artists, painters, sculptors, photographers. We ask them to do a piece of jewelry. We also exhibit some historical pieces, but it’s not our major business.
Sharon: I was wondering if you live in Milan. I don’t know that much about Italy, but I’ve heard Milan is the fashion capital.
Barbara: It is. It’s so busy.
Sharon: Did you have a reason to start there?
Barbara: It’s the most motivational and vibrant city in Italy. It is very European, although in size, it’s quite nice. It still has a local atmosphere although it’s quite international. The other cities in Italy are more for tourists. This is one is more a business city, and it’s more where you do things. It’s the most business city we have, but it’s nice.
Sharon: I’ve heard it’s an up-and-coming city. It was industrial and now it’s really changed.
Barbara: Yes, in the 70s, it used to be a little bit more industrial. Now, it’s mainly services.
Sharon: Was that one reason you decided to open in Milan, besides the fact that you lived in Milan? Did you consider other places?
Barbara: No, honestly, I did not. I think it is quite a good location because a lot of the expertise, especially for goldsmiths, is in this area anyway. I would have had to work mostly from here. Plus, it is quite convenient if you do road shows or if you want to do exhibitions. It’s very logistically easy. There are some cities in Italy which might be a little bit more artistic, like Florence or Venice or Rome, but I still think working in Milan would be the best place.
Sharon: Did you consider other artists you didn’t know, or artists that were in other parts of Italy?
Barbara: Oh, yes. We do work with them. I started with just a few whom I knew. I had been buying their work because I am an art enthusiast. I did buy some pieces of artists I liked. That was just the beginning, but I’m still working and starting to get work from other artists, not only Italians, but also foreigners.
Sharon: Did you find it difficult to start because they didn’t know who you were?
Barbara: Yes. I have to say yes, because at the beginning I was totally new and a very young gallery. It was the only gallery doing this in Italy, so it was quite strange to approach an artist and ask, “Excuse me, would you like to do this?” Second, it was because I don’t come from the art world. I’ve not been in the system. My husband is not a collector. He’s not a gallerist nor is my family. We’ve always been very enthusiastic about it, but we’re not related to anyone and haven’t worked with museums or galleries. So, connections were not that easy at the beginning.
I’m usually a little bit humble, but this time I have to say it because I’ve been having a lot of appreciation lately. I’m working a lot and trying to work well and consistently, so people are now approaching me, and once I approach them, they’re willing to work with me. So, it’s getting easier.
Sharon: What did you do during Covid, when nobody would talk to anybody?
Barbara: Well, we needed to work. We worked at trying to build up an archive. We were organizing, taking pictures and trying to exploit social media and what technology gave us. We were quite a young gallery because we opened in the autumn of 2018. After a year and a half, we were already closed for the pandemic, but that gave us some time to slow down a little bit. We had been doing exhibitions every two months, which was a lot. So, we had time to slow down and reorganize the archive, reorganize the website, reorganize the Instagram, and try to understand how all those types of media work, because I had never been using them. I didn’t need them in my previous business. So, there was everything to learn.
Sharon: Is this what you focus on mainly, besides the gems? Have you given up the gems? Have you given up the real estate investing? Is this your main business?
Barbara: No, this is my main business. I gave up fitness. I’m still doing real estate and financial investments because that’s a family company. I work for them, but that doesn’t take too much time. I have to say that the gallery absorbs 90% of my working time.
Sharon: Wow! Do you have people who work for you in the gallery?
Barbara: Yes, I have a couple of assistants.
Sharon: How do you find new artists? Do they submit things to you?
Barbara: Sometimes they submit them. Sometimes I work with curators and consultants. I explore new artists and try to see what’s new in this world, plus I go to classes. I’m doing a class with an art historian with a focus on contemporary artists. So, I see the artists I like or artists I might find interesting for what they have to say. I always get inspiration.
Sharon: Is that an official class, or is that something you do because you like to?
Barbara: No, that’s just because I like to. At this time in my life, I’m doing things just because I like them. It’s always been an interest, so I want to pursue it; I want to do it. I do study a lot of art because that’s not my background. My background is in law and then taking classes for an MBA. I’ve been working in a totally different field, so there’s always a need to learn more. Of course, I’ve grown up surrounded by art, but that’s mostly ancient art. That helps you build a critical eye and makes you a little more curious about exploring things, but somehow you have to continue pursuing what you like. So, I do study.
Sharon: Do people send photos to you of things you’ve never heard of?
Barbara: Yes, artists do propose. There are not that many, I have to say. They propose themselves mostly if they are emerging artists. A lot of contemporary jewelers do promote themselves, but I do not work with them most of the time because that’s not my business. That is a very nice type of art, but it’s not what I’m focusing on. What I do in the gallery is work with regional artists that usually do not do jewelry. I ask them to create something with their poetic position, with their aesthetic eye, with their meaning, and with the message they usually try to correlate with their art. I propose that they exploit a new medium to convey the same type of art, which is a small sculpture.
Sharon: Do they understand what you’re after?
Barbara: Yes.
Sharon: And if you’re low on rings or bracelets, let’s say, and you need more, you don’t tell them that.
Barbara: No, usually not. I ask them to do something and leave them free—at least at the beginning, I let them feel free to explore, to draw, to create a prototype in paper, in concrete, in clay, in wax, in whatever they like. That’s a starting point. From that starting point, we start creating things. Maybe we say, “O.K., this one doesn’t work as a bracelet, but maybe we can transform it into a necklace or into a pendant,” or “This doesn’t work as a ring, but it could be an earring or vice versa.” It depends.
Sharon: Are they open to your changes, if you have changes?
Barbara: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If they do not want to change the work, but the work is not wearable, sometimes we discharge that project. We do another thing.
Sharon: If it’s not wearable?
Barbara: Yeah, because there are some limitations. If you want to create a ring in gold and in a particular size, but it doesn’t fit because it would be way too heavy, then I cannot make it. If you want to make an earring and it weighs too much so that your ear falls down, there is no way we can do an earring. We can do something else, or we can change the material and try to find something lighter. Sometimes they do accept it; sometimes we just don’t do that piece.
Sharon: You mentioned that you like the fact that you can show your art and jewelry in different places where you don’t usually see it, like a gym.
Barbara: Since I’ve always been passionate about art, I’ve always thought people are quite shy about walking into a regular art gallery, especially in Italy. You have some sort of fear. “What if they ask me to buy it and I cannot afford it? What if I don’t understand and I ask the wrong question?” Especially with contemporary art, it’s always harder to approach it.
I had a chain of very high-end fitness centers. Very nice people were coming to the gym, and they were coming quite often. I had a lot of walls, so I said, “Why not exhibit some young artists or some contemporary artists?” I did, and it was appreciated by other people. They did approach the art and they liked it. Twice a year, I was doing a bigger exhibition with sculptures. For the rest, I was just exhibiting flatworks. It was quite a successful experience for everyone. We had nicer spaces for the clients that were seeing something new, and the artists sold pieces quite a few times. It was a win/win situation.
Sharon: Wow! We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Charon Kransen
Charon Kransen established Charon Kransen Arts in New York City in 1993, in order to promote exciting jewelry from around the world in North America. The work is presented annually at various American art fairs, such as SOFA New York, SOFA Chicago, SOFA Santa Fe and Art Palm Beach and the Int. Art and Design Fair in New York and at select galleries specializing in contemporary crafts and design.
As a private dealer, Charon Kransen Arts welcomes individuals, collectors and museums to the Upper West Side of Manhattan.
The collection consists of jewelry, hollowware and accessories by both renowned and emerging artists, whose work may be found in museum and private collections around the world.
The focus is on the artists' personal vision and on an innovative approach, characterized by the use of a wide spectrum of materials from paper to precious.
The educational branch of Charon Kransen Arts includes lectures and seminars throughout the USA, Europe, Australia and South America and the distribution of books and exhibition catalogs on all aspects of jewelry, metal and design
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
It takes a certain type of person to appreciate art jewelry, and it’s even rarer for someone to wear it unabashedly. Charon Kransen proudly considers himself the latter. As the founder of Charon Kransen Arts, he is a gallerist and educator who hopes that more people embrace and express their differences through jewelry. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the challenges that galleries are facing today; why people wrongly assume that traditional jewelry is a better investment; and how education can help people find the confidence to wear art jewelry. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to The JewelryJourney.com.
My guest today is Charon Kransen, and he’s truly a man of the art jewelry world. He studied in several countries and speaks several languages, and he teaches and lectures about art jewelry globally. Welcome back.
I was rereading the transcript from last time, and you had described this market as being somewhat elitist. I was surprised to reread that. I think of it as more of a mass market thing because it’s more affordable and you can change it more.
Charon: What I mean by elitist is, in general, you have to have a certain sophistication. You have to have educated yourself. You have to have a certain courage. You have to have a certain emotional intelligence to be able to appreciate this work and look at it not like—what do people say?—“This is different.” That’s what I mean by elitist. Most people couldn’t care less. In general, they want to wear something really small; you barely see it. I don’t mean elitist in a pretentious way, but yes, you have to have a level of sophistication in order to appreciate it, right?
Sharon: Yes, if you want to think of elitism being that. There is only a certain segment of a population that’s going to understand it or even stop to think about it for a minute.
Charon: For many years, I’ve done the art fairs in Florida in Palm Beach, and I was the only contemporary jewelry dealer in that fair. There was a lot of high-end jewelry and estate jewelry, and so many times I heard people walking into my booth saying, “Oh, this is so inspiring. This is so refreshing,” and then I saw them across the aisle buying something high end and very expensive because that is, in the end, where their decision lies. “Oh, this is too much fun. I’d better put my money in something that is made of precious metal,” or whatever. I’ve seen that happen so many times. That is what gives people the kind of certainty that they’re not throwing their money away by buying something very out of the ordinary. This is generalizing, of course, but I’ve seen that for so many years. That’s just the reality of this field.
Sharon: Do you think that it is trending toward the lighter, the more fun, the jewelry that’s interchangeable, or that you can afford to have some choices?
Charon: I think it brings up the issue of listening more closely to who you are, what your mood is. If you want to use the word fun, it’s how to embrace fun in your life and not try to be somebody who, from the outside, is all together and all blah, blah, whatever. Yeah, it brings a certain lightness and a certain freshness and a certain leaving your comfort zone energy.
Sharon: Has the way you’ve sold this jewelry, your jewelry, changed over the years? Have you emphasized the lightness of it or the affordability or anything because something changed?
Charon: There are definitely people—and I’m not just talking about since the pandemic, but even before that—who’d say, “Charon, you need to sell more traditional jewelry, more commercial jewelry, more low end,” meaning very low end. I thought about it many times, but that is not something that has my passion. That’s just not the kind of work I want to present. In the end, I have to live with me; I have to be surrounded by work that I find inspiring and energetic. You’ve known me long enough that I have always shown work that, for a large part, is very colorful. The format of certain jewelry might be a bit traditional sometimes, but in terms of color and material and content, this is the kind of work I want to represent. It’s pretty obvious.
Sharon: Can something that’s made out of a material you’ve seen before and thought was innovative, and now you see it in a different format, can that be considered innovative, or is it only the first time?
Charon: Essentially what I think makes a work innovative has a lot to do with a certain uniqueness. When I lecture or do seminars, I talk a lot about what it is that makes a piece of jewelry so special and unique. I think that is something that has a lot to do with how you as a maker infuse your uniqueness into this piece. It could be how you infuse it by manipulating a certain material, but in a way only you can do. I really believe deep down that everybody has a uniqueness. It might be totally underdeveloped, but I do believe people have that. That, to me, is what makes a work unique and even innovative. It’s a combination.
Maybe the best way to describe it is this. I get packages for artists, several every week, and you open a package and think, “O.K., Charon, in all the years you’ve seen it all. You’re probably a bit jaded.” Then I open it and I jump, like, “Wow! I thought I had seen all of it.” In many ways, my opinion is often the thing that needs to be developed more than anything. You can call it the voice of an artist. That makes me jump, like, “I thought I’d seen it all. Wow!” It’s seeing something I’ve never seen before, and I don’t even know how to describe it. It’s not about analyzing how it’s made, but more of the energy that it expresses. It’s interesting that after all these years, I can still have that sensation. It just is what it is.
Sharon: I’m surprised. Is there anything left that would surprise you? That’s my thought.
Charon: Absolutely, yeah.
Sharon: Yes?
Charon: The mind is endless. There is no limit to the mind, and people come up with things. That’s why I’m still doing what I’m doing. I’m far from retiring.
Sharon: How did you make it through Covid? Did that affect your business?
Charon: It was basically dead the first half-year, and then—you’re talking to somebody who in many ways is kind of old-fashioned. I’ve never done social media. I’ve developed clientele on a very personal level. But this time, it was just horrendous. I kept thinking, “Well, no art fairs. Galleries are closed. No exhibitions, no nothing. How are these artists going to survive?” I’m part of the system that pays them money so they can live and work. So, I forced myself to start with Instagram, which was a big stretch for me because I don’t really like it.
Then I approached a lot of people describing the situation, how it really is for artists. I wasn’t that concerned about my own survival, but I thought about all these artists who do not have any income. How can I expect them to be motivated to sit in their studios and make work and say, “O.K., this is difficult and challenging situation. We just have to sit it out”? I felt a lot of their financial pressure, their stress. I approached so many people for help understanding the situation, and of course offering them a bigger discount so I would be able to send checks to artists. Many wonderful, loyal people responded.
I would say it’s still kind of problematic because to develop new clients, you have to do the art fairs, but the art fairs are extremely expensive. You end up paying so much for the whole thing. Financially, I really question whether that is still the way to go, especially in jewelry. When you do these fairs and see artwork, sculptures and paintings that sell for $100,000, yeah, O.K. We’re talking jewelry here. What is the price range? You have to sell a shitload of work in order to break even. So, I’m rethinking that whole art fair model. Everybody also says the market has changed big time. The 90s and the early 2000s, they were golden years. It’s amazing what people would spend. That has changed big time. I hear it from other colleagues also, not even in our field, but in other fields, too.
Sharon: There have been a lot of changes, yes. I can see that in what people buy and how much they’re willing to spend.
Charon: We’re talking here about work that is worn on the body. When you just look at images, you miss the three dimensionality. You can’t imagine it, really. You miss the tactile aspect, the sound aspect. We’re constantly looking at two-dimensional images, and not everybody is able to translate that. I’m trained as an artist so I can do that, but most people can’t. It’s different than looking at an object. How is this going to be on my body? That is a big issue. If you look at commercial jewelry that’s sold over the internet, it’s simple; it’s accessible; it’s understandable; you can totally figure it out, but this kind of work is a completely different story.
Sharon: That’s true.
Charon: That is where we are. We’re looking at images. I send things on approval because I want people to see them and try them on. With this kind of jewelry, I think it’s very difficult to sell on the internet. I really do.
Sharon: I think you’re right. When I think of the images I see when I’m scrolling through Instagram, most of them are things you don’t have to imagine. You know how it’s going to look.
Charon: Right.
Sharon: In your mind, do you have some art fairs you think you’ll still go to that are reasonably priced?
Charon: None of them are reasonably priced. I had several meetings with the director of SOFA Chicago. SOFA Chicago is not happening again this year, and they’re rethinking the whole idea. We’ve been talking about a much smaller fair with exquisite objects. When I think of SOFA Chicago as it was at Navy Pier—
Sharon: SOFA being Sculpture, Objects, Functional Art and Design?
Charon: Yeah, it’s huge. People go there to be entertained without any intention of buying anything. I think there is definitely a market for people who are interested in exquisite objects in glass, in wood, in ceramic jewelry and textiles that would attract them. I might be talking to them about developing something in that different format. I think that would totally work. Right now, I’m focusing on New York Jewelry Week. I’m going to do something I’ve wanted to do for a long time but never did, and I’m very excited about it.
Sharon: I hope to be there. I think that’s the place if you want to experiment.
Charon: I’ve now had two years to focus on the Far East with five or six countries, Korea, Japan, China, Taiwan, Thailand—what am I missing? That was great because this is the aesthetic we mostly don’t see.
Sharon: We don’t.
Charon: It was great, but it was a lot of work for us. I showed the work of like 45 artists. Anyway, I have a theme in mind, and I think it could be great.
Sharon: I’ll keep my eyes open. I’ll wait for round three until after New York Jewelry Week, and I’ll ask you what you’ve done next year post-Covid. I think everybody is changing the way they operate with Covid.
Charon: Quite frankly, I think we’re all in survival mode and reinventing ourselves, and we’re understanding also that somehow it has to make sense. Many years ago, I heard this term which was new to me, “I need to spend money in order to make it.” But the past three years have been horrendous, and not just for me but for so many people, I think. But I’m still here; I’m still getting excited about it.
I am involved in something that unfortunately I cannot quite talk about. Well, I can say this much: I was invited to be a judge of a major international competition. It’s interesting to go through all these submissions and see where we are as a field. This is not just jewelry. There are so many artists. I remember in one of your questions you sent me, you wrote something about education, like “Who needs to be educated most?” I might get a lot of reaction to this, but I think artists need to be educated mostly.
Sharon: On what will sell?
Charon: No, most artists are incredible. They’re talented in what they make, but once the work leaves the studio, there’s a whole world out there that is foreign to them. I think especially during the pandemic, artists started to sell themselves individually, whether they had a relationship with a gallery or not. It is a problem. It’s an issue, but what do you do as an artist when you’re desperate financially and you can barely survive? It brings up a lot of new issues. I won’t bore you with examples, but there are lots of examples where I feel like, “Well, maybe galleries are obsolete. Maybe the relationship between artist and gallery is changing because everybody has been going through a very difficult time.” It’s going to be interesting to see how that continues, but it does bring up a lot of issues and a lot of problems.
Sharon: When that’s developed more, that’s something I’d like to talk with you about. It sounds very interesting. Thank you for being with us today. I look forward to the next time.
Charon: When we meet.
Sharon: It was great. Thank you for being here.
Charon: Thank you for the invitation, and like I said, to be continued. Thank you for having me.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Charon Kransen
Charon Kransen established Charon Kransen Arts in New York City in 1993, in order to promote exciting jewelry from around the world in North America. The work is presented annually at various American art fairs, such as SOFA New York, SOFA Chicago, SOFA Santa Fe and Art Palm Beach and the Int. Art and Design Fair in New York and at select galleries specializing in contemporary crafts and design.
As a private dealer, Charon Kransen Arts welcomes individuals, collectors and museums to the Upper West Side of Manhattan.
The collection consists of jewelry, hollowware and accessories by both renowned and emerging artists, whose work may be found in museum and private collections around the world.
The focus is on the artists' personal vision and on an innovative approach, characterized by the use of a wide spectrum of materials from paper to precious.
The educational branch of Charon Kransen Arts includes lectures and seminars throughout the USA, Europe, Australia and South America and the distribution of books and exhibition catalogs on all aspects of jewelry, metal and design
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
It takes a certain type of person to appreciate art jewelry, and it’s even rarer for someone to wear it unabashedly. Charon Kransen proudly considers himself the latter. As the founder of Charon Kransen Arts, he is a gallerist and educator who hopes that more people embrace and express their differences through jewelry. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the challenges that galleries are facing today; why people wrongly assume that traditional jewelry is a better investment; and how education can help people find the confidence to wear art jewelry. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
My guest today is Charon Kransen. Even if you think you don’t know him, you’ve probably already bumped into him. He was familiar to me years before I met him. I asked a lot of people, “Do you know Charon?” and they would show me what they had bought from him. He’s truly a man of the art jewelry world. He studied in several countries and speaks several languages, and he teaches and lectures about art jewelry globally. There are few book fairs where he is not present with his books and jewelry. He talks to those making art jewelry everywhere. If you’re on his mailing list, he keeps well-apprised of the new things coming out.
He was one of the first guests we had on the podcast. We called that episode “Having the Confidence to Create and Wear Contemporary Jewelry.” I read that title and thought, “That says a lot.” I’m looking forward to hearing about the ups and downs of the intervening years. I know some of them have been very, very hard and some of them have been O.K. Charon, thank you for coming back for round two of the podcast.
Charon: Glad to be here.
Sharon: First, is there a difference between art jewelry and contemporary jewelry in your mind?
Charon: I’ve always tried to avoid the term art jewelry. It’s a very strange term. When you talk about contemporary jewelry, the definitions that people understand are so varied. People call modern jewelry contemporary jewelry or studio jewelry. As a matter of fact, I’m not really interested in what to call it. It feels like a very contrived term.
Two weeks ago or so, I was invited to the preview and award ceremony of the Loewe Craft Competition, which showed the work of 30 finalists. Three of the artists I represent were included in that show. Anyway, the big winner was Eriko Inazaki from Japan. She was Japanese, totally overwhelmed when that was announced, and with the help of a translator, she had to improvise and say something. You can Google the winner. It is just an incredible piece. It’s a porcelain object. But the way she talked about it was, “I don’t really care how you call it, whether it’s art or whether it’s craft,” and I totally related to it.
For many years, when people asked me those kinds of questions, like, “What is it, craft or art?” I don’t think that way. All I can say is all these people have graduated from an art academy somewhere in the world. They’re trained as artists, and the best way to describe how art jewelry is different from commercial jewelry, estate jewelry, fashion jewelry, you name it, is these are artists who have chosen the medium of jewelry to express what any artist wants to express in his or her medium. So, when I think about the word “art jewelry,” it is about something. It is content based. There is a story to it. I’m not talking about a literal story, but it has something to do with—I’m using my own invented words or description when I talk about art jewelry. There is something about the quality of content and learning to see that.
In the 54 years I’ve been in this field, I’ve obviously seen a lot of jewelry. There is room for every option in the jewelry field, but the more I see—and there’s a lot that I see—I’m just not interested. What I’m more and more interested in is, “I don’t know what I’m looking at, but there is a quality of content.” It’s mysterious. It’s not literal, and it brings up a lot of questions. It’s not about elegance, necessarily; it’s not about beauty; it’s maybe about a different definition of beauty, but it’s very content based. You know what I’m saying? You walk past things that are beautifully made, but what is it about, and what do I get to receive from the artist’s mind?
Sharon: Would you say that is what attracts you to art jewelry? You’re saying, “What do I see? What do I understand from the piece? I don’t know what the piece is.”
Charon: I would say that is what touches me. Of course, one can be touched in many different ways. When you go to the Hermitage in St. Petersburg and go to the treasure room, you see the most incredible jewelry and objects made with craftsmanship that is just amazing. I can appreciate it for that reason, but does it touch me personally? No, not really. At this point of life, all that matters to me is that I want to be engaged with it; I want it to bring up questions. That’s where I am right now.
Sharon: That’s interesting. As you were talking, I thought that while contemporary jewelry is fashion, it’s commercial, it’s not the kind of thing that would attract you, I would guess. I think all of that is pretty or I might want it, but I do have questions. What does it mean, what did the artist want to say, that sort of thing.
Charon: Right. What does it do to me? What does it trigger in me, and which part of whoever I am does it resonate with? I want that connection.
Sharon: Do you think that’s how you grow the field? By educating people, the makers and the buyers, that there is a connection?
Charon: After I graduated in 1975 in Germany, I went back to Holland. This was a time where things were just starting to happen in terms of a different kind of jewelry we didn’t have a name for. I’m talking about the environment. There were no galleries; there were no museums that collected jewelry; there were hardly any publications. There was nothing, really. So, you can then say, “Well, if we want to make a living at some point, we need to educate the public. We can’t just put it out and say, ‘O.K., you people have to understand it and appreciate it and put money towards it.’ No, this is all about education.” I’m probably more of an educator than anything else because the things I do constantly require education, because we’re talking about work that is more or less foreign to most people. Most people want and wear what already exists, right?
Sharon: Right.
Charon: That is their comfort level; that’s their comfort zone. Who am I to say that’s wrong? No, it’s not wrong. But in order to find the connection to this different kind of work, let’s call it, it requires education and, I would almost say, emotional and psychological education. Am I going to wear something so people will look at me like, “Where are you from? What planet are you from?” because they have no reference whatsoever? Am I able to withstand that? Am I able to ignore that and say, “Hey, this is what I want to wear”? It involves a lot of things that certainly have an emotional and psychological component. Do I have enough courage? Do I need to be seen? No, I don’t need to be seen, but this expresses something in a nonverbal way about who I am, and thank God there is this. Do you know what I mean?
Sharon: Yes.
Charon: It’s essential. It still is in many ways because we’re a relatively small field compared to the global, bigger jewelry fields. That’s just the reality of this separate option in the bigger jewelry field. It’s complicated. It’s challenging. I’ve always known that. This is not going to be a big market. If you compare it with the market for estate jewelry, for high-end jewelry, for commercial jewelry, it’s tiny.
Sharon: Why did you choose it? The things I’ve seen you wear are different. Is it because they are expressing who you are? I’ve mainly seen you wear brooches at fairs and things.
Charon: It expresses who I am. It expresses my mood, and that can change from one day to the other, obviously. It can feel like protection. That’s how I wear jewelry. Of course, sitting here, I’m not wearing jewelry. I’m not always wearing jewelry by any means, but yes, it does speak a language I use because I want the world to know this part of me.
Sharon: Do people come up to you—women especially—and say, “Gee, I wish my husband had the courage to wear a brooch or something besides cufflinks. Do you think my husband could do that?”
Charon: That’s an interesting question. It’s not just women who talk about their husbands. It’s also women who say, “You can wear it because—” fill in the blank. “You’re tall. You have a long neck. You have the right personality,” etc. It’s always something in comparison. When I hear something like this, I always think this is just a way to say, “I’m not really interested.” Fine, but to always put it on the other, like, “You can do it. You can wear it. You can get away with it. You, you, you, not me.” Well, why not me? Why not? And that, of course, brings up a lot of questions.
I don’t have issues wearing jewelry; I don’t care what people say, but we live in a pretty traditional society. I have certain couple clients where the husband has slowly ventured out to wearing small lapel pins, and he’s becoming a little more courageous under the constant education of the wife. But let’s face it: most men do not wear it. They’re afraid of color. They won’t wear anything that draws attention, because God forbid what that would do. That would open up a discussion that a lot of people just don’t want to have.
Sharon: What do you think the difference is? Karen Rotenberg from Gallery Loupe talks about how women come in and say, “Oh, I could never wear that,” and then they leave wearing something that’s contemporary or really out there or something they thought they couldn’t wear. Why does that happen?
Charon: In the past few months, I’ve had some rotator cuff problems. I’m going to PT two to three times a week, and there are two physical therapists, both men, and me being me, I comment on the fact that the colors they are wearing are so boring. It’s almost as if I’m back in the 50s in Holland, in a Calvinist country where we wouldn’t see colors. It was gray, beige, dark blue, black, basically. My apartment is full of color. I wear a lot of color. So, we talk about it sort of jokingly, and it’s like, “Oh no, you can’t do that. That is not very manly to wear color.” I’ve been going there now for a few months. Last week—and I kind of tease them also—one of them said, “You know what? I bought four very colored T-shirts.” That is education, but in a light way.
I think there are all kinds of traditional attitudes attached to it. God knows what they are. “Men don’t wear color.” Well, look in nature. I lived for a year in Lapland. If you see how the men dress in Lapland, their whole chest is full of jewelry. There are so many different cultures where men wear jewelry. Look in nature. So, what have we done to the man?
Sharon: That’s a good point. Most physical therapists who are male wear dark colors, whereas the women might wear peach scrubs or something like that.
Charon: Why is that? Is it that you’re afraid to show who you are? What is that all about?
Sharon: That’s a good question. People think that’s male.
Charon: Right. Adornment belongs to women, or whatever is in your mind. I think all these people miss out on a lot of pleasure, a lot of leaving your comfort zone. Yeah, it might be a little scary, but in the end, it’s great, especially when you hear comments from people. A lot of it is fear-based, I think. What will other people think?
Sharon: You must get a lot of comments on a piece of jewelry, a brooch or something. It opens the door.
Charon: It does. At the opening of the Loewe preview, I wore a big brooch and saw people looking. There were very few people who actually commented on it. I think it was just too awkward for most people. Can you believe it in the New York crowd? I think it brings up a certain confusion. They see a man wearing something very colorful, a brooch or whatever. Maybe that’s the confusion. They don’t know how to approach it. They don’t know how to respond to it, instead of saying, “Wow, that looks great. I don’t know what I’m looking at, but it looks great, and it has great energy.” You know what I mean?
Sharon: Yes. Like you said in the title of the last time you were on, you have to have confidence to create it and to wear this kind of jewelry. You have to be confident in yourself. There must be a piece of yourself that’s confident about it.
Charon: It doesn’t just apply to jewelry. It applies to anything in life. How do you want to be in life? Who do you want to be? How do you want to dress? How do you want to develop friendships? It’s anything. There’s a lot of talk about how we can develop younger collectors. I’m generalizing of course, but the problem with younger collectors is that they haven’t really grown into their own. There are a lot of things that will guide them towards Cartier or Tiffany because that’s recognizable, and that tells the viewer, “I belong to a certain status; I wear Tiffany or I drive a Mercedes.”
I think it comes with age that at a certain point, you look back and say, “Now, who’s going to determine what I do, what I say, what I wear, what I eat? Is there somebody like me who says, ‘It makes me feel a certain way, and that is why I’m doing it this way. That’s why I’m wearing it’?” There are so many phases in life where you’re preoccupied with all these questions. You look at adolescents and teenagers, and thank God I’m not in that phase anymore, because it’s so much about blending in and being like the group. You’re talking to somebody who has, in many ways, always has been an outsider, so maybe you need to embrace that in yourself, whatever way you are different than other people.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’ve never heard anybody talk about the issues of having collectors be younger or nurturing them. I’ve never heard anybody explain it that way, in that you have to grow into it in a sense.
Charon: Right, it’s being different or an outsider. Maybe this is way too philosophical, but I think we spend a lot of time coming to terms with that and viewing it as, “What’s wrong with me?” versus saying, “I embrace the difference in me. I embrace it. I don’t judge it. It’s not a negative thing. On the contrary, it’s inspiring, and this is how I want to live.” I think time and experience help you get to that point, and then you can start living your life and wear whatever you want. In Western Europe, we call it Calvinism. In Scandinavia, you call it Janteloven, but it all comes down to, “Don’t think you’re anybody special. Try to blend in as much as possible. Don’t draw attention to yourself.” Well, if you want to live that way, be my guest.
Sharon: That’s not my image of New York, blending in, but I suppose. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ed Lewand
Edward A. Lewand, GG, ASA, AAA, is a professional, independent appraiser of fine and antique jewelry. He has earned a Graduate Gemologist degree from the Gemological Institute of America, is a Certified Member of the Appraisers Association of America and a Senior Accredit Member in Gems and Jewelry from the American Society of Appraisers.
Mr. Lewand also teaches a course that he developed on appraising jewelry called the Art of Appraising Jewelry at the NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies. He lectures on appraising and antique jewelry. He maintains his insurance brokerage license in P&C and has a certificate in Paralegal studies from Adelphi University.
He specializes in antique jewelry appraisals and works with attorneys on estates, trusts, insurance matters, and copyright issues as well as appraisal theories and concepts. He is also an outside expert for the IRS and consults with numerous galleries and dealers in New York on antique jewelry.
Mr. Lewand is also the director of Jewelry Camp (JewelryCamp.org), now in its 43rd year, held at PHILLIPS Auction House in New York, an international conference on antique jewelry and art pertaining to jewelry.
He does work for international accounting firms as well as appraisals for the sale of major companies.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A good jewelry appraiser can give you much more than just an estimate of what your jewelry is worth. As a professional, independent appraiser of fine and antique jewelry, Ed Lewand draws on his historical knowledge of jewelry and his connections in the industry to give his clients a deeper understanding of what they have in their collections. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how to know you’re working with a qualified appraiser; why less expensive jewelry, like lab-grown diamonds and art jewelry, is on the rise; and why you should always read the fine print when making a purchase. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, our guest is Ed Lewand, who was one of our first podcast guests several years ago. He’s a professional independent appraiser. Welcome back.
Ed: So, I do recommend product knowledge. As far as theories and concepts, a lot of places like to make appraisals more important than they really are. As long as you do your research and your documentation, provide whatever is needed for that particular assignment, explain what you’re doing in your scope of work, and maintain all your files and notes, you’ve pretty much got it. [End of repeat of first part]
It’s also establishing the right market for somebody. I don’t know who wrote the books a long time ago. There are 12 principles about appraising and theory. I always put every little note down. I’m valuing the second retail. The model is no longer in current production. The value is based on auction comps and comps on the internet from sites such as 1stDibs. I put that in my notes. I don’t put the actual comps in; those are in my notes, but I put that on the appraisal just so people understand where the numbers are coming from.
One of the misconceptions—I just ran into this last month in Nashville; I don’t run into it in New York—is that everybody is like, “Why isn’t the item appraised for double?” It’s a real item. It exists in the real world. Appraising it for double isn’t doing anybody any favors. It’s misleading. The appraisal should reflect a real number that exists and that the piece sold for. This way you understand that it’s the value of the piece. It’s just like when you’re buying a house. The appraisers value it based on comps in the marketplace, the location and everything else. They’re not going to give an appraisal for double on the house, because the bank’s only going to give you money based on that loan and what they could sell it for if they have to take over the house and you default. The same thing with an engagement ring. If everybody in the area sells the ring for $5,000 for a comparable ring, then the price of the ring is going to be $5,000 on the appraisal. How is it presented? If the color and clarity are correct, this is a $5,000 ring. “Well, my mother always taught me to appraise for double.” Well, if it was worth double, why weren’t they selling it to you for double?
Now, when we get down to value, a lot of people don’t understand value. I don’t fight people on value. I fight people on documentation. I fight people on research, on comps. Value is whatever somebody wants to pay for something, whatever anybody wants to charge for it. There’s nothing wrong with that. If you feel this ring is worth $10,000 and somebody buys it from you for $10,000, even if all the appraisers say it’s worth $2,500—but I really love the ring, so to me it’s worth $10,000—that’s fine. The guy didn’t do anything wrong. That’s what he wanted for it. That’s what you paid for it. It’s just like with certain things I collect. If I want it badly enough, I’m going to pay what they’re asking for it. Even if they think it’s high, I’m not buying for investment; I’m buying it for my own enjoyment. As you can see from the background, I have a lot of things in the house on the walls, the bookshelves and everything else. This is my private office. The wife is not allowed to go past the door of my office. I enjoy collecting weird little tidbits here and there. You have to understand; there are certain things you argue, certain things you can’t argue. It’s basically representation.
Now, if you’re buying a new piece—in fact, a situation just came up. I can’t mention the names, but the salesperson represented the price with four numbers. She never added the zero. She had said 1625. She said to them, both the husband and wife, 1625, and they took that to mean $1,625. I think anybody would. Now, if you said 16250, that’s $16,250. You never add the zero on this particular item. The people came back from their cruise and took it to a local jeweler, and the local jeweler said, “Oh, it's only worth $8,000.” So, they called me. I said, “Well, there’s a conflict here. I can’t physically give you an appraisal. This firm is connected to an accounting firm and a bank that I do work for, so I can’t do that; it wouldn’t be fair.” It affects all the companies and businesses too. So, I suggested and recommended that they call the company and see what they can negotiate. I looked at the earrings, the item, and I agreed they were only worth $8,000. Actually, between $6,000 and $8,000. I think they had a very valid thing, and they’ll end up getting money back or being able to return them.
What I always advise people is know what the rules are before you buy something. When you’re traveling it may seem like a good deal, but jewelry is jewelry, no matter where we go in the world. It has a certain value and that’s it. Sometimes you can negotiate. Maybe somebody has things marked higher so they’re expecting you to negotiate. It just depends on what region of the world you’re in. Always check. Is it a returnable item? Are there no returns? If you’re traveling, I also suggest—I’m not an expert or anything, but from my own personal experience, I strongly recommend that you use a regular Amex card, not a credit card, because there is a difference. Some companies have rules that you can’t dispute anything more than 100 miles from your home. You’ve got to be careful with what you do and read the fine print. Unfortunately, today, the fine print is 30 or 40 pages on some things. So, you’ve got to be very, very careful with that.
Sharon: I missed something, or I didn’t understand. If you have a platinum card, let’s say, and it’s not a credit card, or you use a green Amex, what’s the difference?
Ed: It’s a charge card. Amex is a charge card. It’s an international bank. It’s not a local bank. With Visa and Mastercard and some of these others, you have to see what the rules are for disputing something beyond a certain range from the address of the card. Some companies don’t do it. Amex is an international company, so they handle things everywhere you go. They’re very, very good to their members—they call us members. That’s something I always tell people. Do a little research before you buy something. It takes you five minutes to Google, read the fine print, see what their policy is. In this way, if something goes wrong, you don’t have a problem a month later. It’s always a good thing, even here in the States. If you buy something and the pricing is too good to be true, it probably is.
Sharon: Have you ever bought anything in your travels that you thought was a good deal and then you came home and found it wasn’t?
Ed: No, because when I used to go the islands or to Europe and I’d find something for myself or the family, it’s basically some souvenir. I like antiques. I collect Sorcerer’s Apprentice, Mickey Mouse paraphernalia and stuff. I know what the markets and the values are, but sometimes I’ll overpay. If I’m down on the islands and I go into one of these little shops with the balloons and stuff, I’ll buy the kids those; they’re a few bucks.
Have I ever bought anything overseas where there was an error or mistake? No, luckily, I haven’t. I never did. I think when I started, I had some very good teachers who I used to travel with, and they would say, “Oh, don’t do that. Don’t do this. Don’t do that.” We flew to Europe right after 9/11. They took away my tweezers at the airport, but we got on the plane. We’re flying business class and first class. When we got on the plane, they gave us steak knives with the dinnerware, and we’re going, “Wait a minute. They took my tweezers away as security, but you’re giving me a real steak knife? That’s classic.” We’re sitting there trying to understand this concept.
I think on the trip back, we flew out of Geneva. The people I was with, we all bought Swiss army knives, and we said, “O.K., make sure we put it into our checked luggage, not in our carry-on.” One left it in his carry-on, and we were sure it was going to get confiscated. They called him over. They took everything out, looked in his bag, took everything. We get to the gate and there’s a duty-free store. What were they selling there? Swiss army knives. Remember they used to have the little clerks that would go around the plane and sell souvenirs and things? What were they selling? Swiss army knives.
Sharon: You did better than I did. They took away my plastic steak knife and I couldn’t believe it.
Ed: I’m telling you, it’s weird. It’s very, very strange. Our government has developed TSA PreCheck. They’ve developed Global Entry. There are all different things you could do. There’s Clear, which I strongly suggest people use. It makes life so much easier, and it moves so much faster. But you’re always going to run into a problem traveling. Like I said, if people take five minutes to read the fine print, they avoid a lot of problems later for themselves. That’s what I suggest. That’s the story.
Sharon: Yeah, I can believe that. What should we look for in a good appraiser?
Ed: That they have kept updated with the latest USPAP, the Standards of Professional Appraisal Practices, that they have obtained a certain level in one of the appraisal organizations for gems and jewelry, that they’re providing you with an adequate description of the item with a photograph, and that they’re charging a fair price and explaining the value to you. In other words, they’re not just saying, “O.K., here’s a ring. It’s worth $3,000. Thank you, goodbye.” No. “It’s worth $3,000. We checked the internet. We made a few phone calls. We looked at the Rapaport List. We looked at the guide. This is the number we came up with for you, and here’s the reason why.” It takes a few minutes to explain it to people. Your explanation should be a narrative of the report, or for a standard retail replacement appraisal, it should contain a very good description for replacement purposes. It should have a fair value on it, which makes sense. Now, if it’s not a new purchase, if it’s an older purchase, if it was mom’s engagement ring, it should still be based on information related to what it will cost you to go out and buy a new ring in a store in this area or nationally.
I take into account the internet because I see a lot of diamonds coming off the internet still. Remarkably, you can buy some very large, expensive stones on the internet. I’m shocked; five, six, eight carats. I’m fascinated that people spend that kind of money, but they do. The other thing, too, when you’re buying diamonds, is making sure you have an accompanying GIA web report. They’re not certificates; they’re reports. A certificate in different states means warranty, but they’re lab reports. GIA developed the system we use today. They are still the premier lab that everybody wants to use for identification and grading. I think you solve a lot of headaches for yourself that way.
And, be forthcoming with your appraiser. If you’re going to have jewelry appraised or if you’re selling something, the appraiser is going to ask you certain questions. Do you have the original box and papers for this watch? Do you have the original receipt? What type of store did you buy it in? Are there problems or situations? Professional appraisers are there to work for you. I can do a standard engagement ring in about 10 minutes. The more information you give me, the better I can research everything you’re looking for and help figure out if there’s a problem. So, don’t withhold the certificate. It’s not a game. We’re here to work for you. We’re charging anywhere from $150 for a ring under a carat to $400 or $500 for something that’s five carats. We’re charging you a lot of money to sit there, talk to you and explain and investigate your piece of jewelry so we can derive a value that’s in the correct marketplace.
Sharon: Do you look for a hallmark on a piece or something that would be a manufacturer’s signature?
Ed: Just to clarify something, a hallmark is a government-issued stamp for taxes and content for the gold. A trademark is the seller’s mark or the manufacturer’s mark. They’re two different things. One of the best people that knows about that is—I just forgot his name. He used to teach at Jewelry Camp. He’s a good friend; I talk to him all the time. It’s Bill and Danusia, who do a great class. They wrote the World Hallmark Book, which is right behind me.
Sharon: I didn’t know Danusia wrote a hallmark book.
Ed: Danusia is going to be mad at me if she listens, but Bill, Lindy and Danusia wrote World Hallmarks. It’s a great book. They put so much time and effort into that. It was never about profit; it’s just about education. They have the most information. They are the top people in identifying marks, and Bill is a walking encyclopedia. If you ever get to hear them lecture—I think this summer they’re lecturing for Gail Levine at her NAJA Conference. If you have a chance, you definitely have to hear them talk. They’re fantastic.
That’s another good little jewelry organization that just specializes in jewelry, the NAJA. Gail tries her best to bring people the best information they can possibly get. The difference between a jeweler appraiser and a professional independent appraiser is not much. If the values are there and they do the work correctly and their report is defendable, then they’re doing a good job. Niklewicz, that’s Danusia’s name.
Sharon: So, a hallmark is like a Tiffany mark?
Ed: No, that’s the manufacturer’s mark. Hallmark is like the eagle’s head for 18-carat gold in France, the wolf’s head or dog’s head for platinum, whatever you use. You could date a piece with it. You could date an antique from the cut of the stone. You could do a lot of things from understanding products. When was platinum first used? When did it develop? When did the torch come, which combined oxygen and gas to give a hotter, higher flame so you could work in platinum? When you see black platinum pieces, it’s because it was a white metal. They used to back silver in gold; otherwise, it would rub on your skin and everything and turn black. They were doing that with platinum early on. Platinum stands by itself, but by understanding hallmarks you can understand if the piece is all platinum. If the piece is platinum in 18-carat white gold, you can understand the country or where it comes from; you can understand a timeframe.
Understanding history is very important if you’re an appraiser. I tell people I don’t authenticate. It’s not my place to do that, but I will value something. If the stamps and everything are correct, I will value something based on those markings. Do I guarantee them to be genuine? To the best of my knowledge, they might be, but again, I’m not authenticating it.
To this day, with the major houses and the major pieces, you still have to go to them to get the best authentication. From what I’m told right now, they’re not doing it. There’s a new service out there that will verify, I think, Winston, Cartier, Tiffany and Van Cleef. They do those four houses. I think auction houses are finding them quite useful. They’re still not the company itself, but they’re accepted. They are very intelligent, knowledgeable people who are doing it. They’ve all worked for those companies. Like I said, you may have to hire someone or find other people who know more than you do, but the sign of a good appraiser is they will ask other people who have more knowledge than they do about something. I do that all the time, especially with antique and aesthetic jewelry. I always ask a dealer I know, who’s like a walking encyclopedia. I ask for their opinion, their thoughts, their input, what their prior sales were, so I can provide the best information, not only to cover myself, but also to protect the client. That’s important. You’re there to protect your client no matter what and to be honest and truthful.
Sharon: Yeah, that would be very important.
Ed: I think so.
Sharon: One last thing I wanted to ask. I was going back and reading the transcript of the very first time you were on the podcast. You talked about the fact that brooches originally were heavier, and people don’t want them now because they stretch fabric. What do you think today?
Ed: It’s still taste. They’re not as popular as they once were. People would wear them because you could wear it with a scarf; you could wear it with a jacket; you could put it on a hat. There were a lot of different things. I do see some designers and people still making a brooch or two, but it’s not something that’s a mainstay. People don’t want heavy things on their clothing. Clothing is lighter. With some people, it’s less clothing. So, they’re still not super-popular, but they’re still there and collectable. A lot of times they’re worn on a chain, or they’re made with a pendant attachment.
A lot of people don’t realize jewelry was sometimes made for several purposes. I’ve seen pieces made by some of the finer houses where they could be attached onto a bracelet, they could be a brooch and they also had a pendant fitting. Some of them even had tiara fittings to be worn as a tiara back in the day. But as times, styles and people’s choices change, so does the jewelry industry and the art world.
Right now, I know that art jewelry is very popular. It’s a hard item. There’s a lovely lady—I’m getting old; I can’t remember her name. She’s going to hit me when she sees me, but she represents artists, and it’s fun jewelry. Is it super-expensive? Yes and no. If it’s a noted artist, it could be worth $20,000, $25,000, but most of the time it’s not. She’s been to Jewelry Camp a number of times. Some of this stuff is so amazing, how they can concoct it and how they make it and design it. It’s a lot of fun. People should consider art jewelry. It’s a statement, but it’s fun to collect. It’s not super-expensive, and it’s a piece that when you wear it and walk into a room, people go, “Look at that ring. Oh my god, I’ve got to ask her about it.” It may be made out of tin. I’ve seen some weird stuff, but it really is interesting. Not to show my age, but as we used to say, it’s really cool. People love to wear it. Some of the finer houses have just now started seeing auctions. I know Heritage had one on art jewelry. You don’t see them a lot, but they are starting to come about a little bit more.
Sharon: That’s interesting, just became I happen to like art jewelry and it’s been behind the scenes for so long. Ed, thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.
Ed: My pleasure. It was great seeing you and talking to you. Hopefully somebody can use this knowledge. If people contact you with a question, feel free to forward it to me and I’ll help them out anytime I can.
Sharon: Thank you very much. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ed Lewand
Edward A. Lewand, GG, ASA, AAA, is a professional, independent appraiser of fine and antique jewelry. He has earned a Graduate Gemologist degree from the Gemological Institute of America, is a Certified Member of the Appraisers Association of America and a Senior Accredit Member in Gems and Jewelry from the American Society of Appraisers.
Mr. Lewand also teaches a course that he developed on appraising jewelry called the Art of Appraising Jewelry at the NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies. He lectures on appraising and antique jewelry. He maintains his insurance brokerage license in P&C and has a certificate in Paralegal studies from Adelphi University.
He specializes in antique jewelry appraisals and works with attorneys on estates, trusts, insurance matters, and copyright issues as well as appraisal theories and concepts. He is also an outside expert for the IRS and consults with numerous galleries and dealers in New York on antique jewelry.
Mr. Lewand is also the director of Jewelry Camp (JewelryCamp.org), now in its 43rd year, held at PHILLIPS Auction House in New York, an international conference on antique jewelry and art pertaining to jewelry.
He does work for international accounting firms as well as appraisals for the sale of major companies.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A good jewelry appraiser can give you much more than just an estimate of what your jewelry is worth. As a professional, independent appraiser of fine and antique jewelry, Ed Lewand draws on his historical knowledge of jewelry and his connections in the industry to give his clients a deeper understanding of what they have in their collections. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how to know you’re working with a qualified appraiser; why less expensive jewelry, like lab-grown diamonds and art jewelry, is on the rise; and why you should always read the fine print when making a purchase. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Welcome back to the Jewelry Journey everybody. We’ve had about a month-long spring break. It’s really good to be here again. Even though I missed all of you, I’m always hearing your suggestions. I also want to know who you want to hear, the speakers that would be of interest to you or whatever ideas you have. Please write me at [email protected], or you can send your ideas to me via Instagram @Arts and Jewelry.
Today, our guest is Ed Lewand, who was one of our first podcast guests several years ago. He’s a professional independent appraiser, and he’s had a lot of experience. He’s worked for banks. He’s worked for all the big houses. He’s travelled, I would say the world, but I know he’s gone to New York. Today he’s going to be talking about the importance of appraising. I think that’s something we all want to hear about. I know it’s so important; especially living in California, you have wildfires when you wake up in the morning or you have a mudslide in the backyard. Whether it’s fire, theft or something else, appraising is important, especially when you have to prove to somebody else what something is worth.
Ed is also the director of what is colloquially known as Jewelry Camp. The Antique Jewelry and Art Conference is its real name, but it’s known as Jewelry Camp. It’s really where I got my start. I learned very quickly that I could sit through a whole day of jewelry-related meetings and not even think about the time, but if it was anything else, if it was work-related, I didn’t have the patience. It really helped point me toward what I liked and what I thought I should like, but I found out I really didn’t like. So, I have homed in on jewelry. Without further ado, I’d like to welcome Ed to the program.
Ed: Thank you, Sharon. How are you doing?
Sharon: I’m doing O.K. It’s good to have you since you were one of our first ones. One thing I wondered is how you kept your business going through Covid.
Ed: That’s very interesting. One, I still flew, believe it or not. I got on planes and flew. Yes, you wore a mask, and yes, you sat in alternating rows and everything else like that. Not many people were traveling. New York, where I had an office—I still do; I share an office now—was on lockdown, but essential businesses were still allowed to operate and see people. Guess what? Appraising fell under banking and accounting. So, I was still able to see people. We did a lot of Zoom work for the accounting firms and banks. Of course, that was mainly verifying investments. As long as I saw the piece, I was O.K. with figuring out what was needed for that particular assignment. It wasn’t that bad. I didn’t see a lot of private people like I normally do, but I was still doing work for the companies.
Sharon: When you were traveling, it was a lot easier I suppose.
Ed: It wasn’t crowded. I had to go to Florida for a client and see my sister. That was the first time I was ever on Delta Airlines, in the terminal in Orlando, and I was the only person there. There was nobody else there. I was like, “Whoa, this is like the Twilight Zone. Orlando, Delta Terminal, no one there.” Four or five other people finally trickled through, but I was still able to do stuff remotely for people. One of the weird things was if I was going live in person, I carried a UV lamp with me to scan everything. Supposedly the UV light was killing the Coronavirus. So, I would scan everything before I touched it, and I would scan it again before I gave it back. I would tell people, “I can’t wear a mask while I’m working, looking in a microscope with a mask on.” I just couldn’t do it, and nobody had a problem with that. So, business still went on; it was at a different level or a different procedure.
Sharon: I’m really surprised to hear that appraising came under banking and accounting as an essential service.
Ed: Well, you’ve got to understand, you actually get values every day. You get an estimate to have your car fixed, and there’s a number at the bottom of the page. That’s sort of like an appraisal. Your house gets appraised for a loan or a mortgage. Your insurance company comes in after a car accident. They’re valuing what the car is going to be. Appraising is a general term, and it’s very important. It’s not proof of ownership, but it does help establish that you are in possession of the product. It establishes a value and identifies the product; it’s not necessarily always authenticating.
Sharon: I’m learning something then, because I always thought if you have the piece, then you own it. I guess you could steal it and have the piece.
Ed: Yeah, something could go wrong. You could lose it. It’s good to have a record. That’s what an appraisal basically is; a record. I do a lot of work where people aren’t insuring their jewelry. They’re just keeping a record for themselves in a safety deposit box. As a matter of fact, with some of my better clients now, the kids decided they don’t want the jewelry. They’re my high-value clients, and we’re doing a value of what the jewelry could be sold for after their time of death, so the kids don’t have to go crazy. At first, I thought it was nuts, but I understand it better. I’ve been getting a lot of calls from my high-value clients to do that.
Sharon: I can see how that would eliminate a lot of bickering afterwards.
Ed: A tremendous amount. So, appraising is used every day. Besides jewelry, which is my specialty, I still did floor plans for some companies and manufacturers for another firm that would call me in. A lot of stuff is looking at numbers and checking and doing the research and valuing it in that aspect. Appraising is basically a lot of research and comps and documentation. You don’t always have to put everything into the appraisal, but you do have to keep it in your notes.
Sharon: If you were doing all of this during Covid, was there a change in what you were appraising? Was it one-offs versus a whole estate where somebody had died?
Ed: No changes. The only change was the research. It was very limited because people weren’t in. Things stopped, so I couldn’t research or make calls or do anything as much as I normally would. I had to put a disclaimer in their reports saying, “This is during the time of Covid, there’s a national lockdown, blah, blah, blah,” and that research, which might be necessary, is not obtainable at this point.
Sharon: Today do you see a change in terms of the things you’re seeing?
Ed: That’s very funny. A change in procedures, no. When things go back to pre-Covid and things are moving smoothly, people again want an appraisal for insurance. They may still want an appraisal because they’re looking to get an occasional order to be sold or just for their own knowledge. So, procedures are back to pre-Covid.
What is different now is that people are learning. The internet has become very, very big in the jewelry industry. You could find almost any piece of jewelry you want on the internet, and you’ll probably find it for a very good price. There are so many sites that sell loose diamonds—and if you’re in the trade, you’ll understand what I’m going to say—and there’s a price list of things, and they’re discounted. Some of these sites are literally wholesaling diamonds for the public, sometimes better than a jeweler can pick them up for.
In my opinion, it’s created a problem in the industry and for me. Do I use those sites as a comp, or do I have to take into reality what a jeweler might put on the price to make his fair markup? Which isn’t much on a diamond. A fair markup on a diamond today could be 5% to 20%. In some situations, it’s more, but there are reasons why, price points, things like that. When you’re appraising, it’s a lot of market research. As a matter of fact, a lot of organizations now require that the appraiser put in a market analysis for the appraisal. Is it really necessary? Yes and no. In some appraisals it is and other ones it isn’t.
Sharon: Have you had anybody come back and argue or dispute an appraisal that you’ve had?
Ed: I’ve had people come back and say, “I had it appraised in 2008 for more money,” and I explain to them and show them that times have changed and markups have changed. Once it’s explained to a person, they understand that. I can only value something on a certain date. I can’t predict the future or anything like that. So, is it sad? Yes.
We just got done with a situation where one report from a government agency, who will remain nameless, said that the diamond business increased in value from 2013 to 2020, and I’m like, “No, it didn’t.” I used one of these lists, the Rapaport List, and I showed them the decline in the marketplace. Why are you saying it went up 30% when it declined? I do a lot of reviews and a lot of work within the trade for estates and trusts of people. There’s a lot to it, to establish certain markets and things like that.
I think today, what I’m seeing at the little office in Nashville I use—the appraiser there got ill, and she can’t work anymore. So, I go up and take care of clients and give her a percentage of everything, so she can afford to pay her bills at least. What I have noticed there is an increase in sales of lab-grown diamonds.
Sharon: I was just going to ask you about that. Do you see more of those?
Ed: I’m seeing more, which is unusual, but then again when I go to Nashville, I’m dealing with the public. I really enjoy going to Nashville. The people up there are great. I have such a good time appraising and having conversations. I do see more and more of it coming. I have to admit that, even with friends of mine, even though some people disagree and there are reasons why they don’t like LGDs, but to me, it’s a diamond. It will test as a diamond. It is a diamond. You can’t pick up a loupe and look at it and say, “This is lab-grown.” It’s a real diamond, and they’re very, very inexpensive.
We’ve got to look at these things. You’ll have reports coming out saying, “Well, they don’t hold their value.” O.K., is a person really buying a diamond engagement ring for value? Because if you pay $10,000 and you go to sell it, you’re only going to get $4,000, so it has lost value. Are you buying the ring for value or an investment, or are you buying the ring for love and a symbol? I think a lot of younger people—and I hate to say this, but even us older people are realizing it’s for enjoyment. It’s for fashion, and it’s a symbol. It is not a symbol of, “Look, I spent $25,000 on a two-carat ring.” I have a two-carat ring, but it only cost me $4,000.
I have a very dear friend. His son wanted to get a stone, and he asked me for the lab-grown. I said, “Fine, what do you want?” He said, “Well, on this website it's $15,000. Dad said you could do better.” I said, “Let me make a call to a supplier I know.” Yes, I got him a five-carat D VS1 oval cut for $5,500. The equivalent stones can be very, very expensive, tens of thousands of dollars more. Is he happy? Yeah. Will anybody realize the difference? The guy’s in law school. Daddy has money. No, they’ll probably think it’s real or a natural stone.
I even recommend them to my family. My son, my daughters, they all end up doing lab-growns because you’re wearing it on your finger or your ear. If you spend $2,000 on something, it’s not the same as spending $15,000. So, yes, I do recommend them. As a matter of fact, a lot of people I know recommend them now. I’m seeing an uptick. Even secondary market jewelers who do things for their clients are starting to get requests for lab-grown diamonds. They’re taking their market share.
Sharon: I can understand that.
Ed: It’s funny. Originally, I was trying to get something going where there had to be fines and things like that for lab-growns. Going back five or six years, most people were saying it was just a fad that wasn’t going to develop into anything. Well, guys, it’s developed into something very fancy. I don’t have the stats right now because I haven’t checked in a while, but I’m sure if you called JA or one of these groups that monitors things, we’ll see a large increase in the sales of lab-growns.
Sharon: That’s interesting. It took me a while to get used to it, but you’re right; it’s exactly the same as the diamond. What does it matter?
Ed: Exactly. Again, like I say to people, you’re not buying it for an investment; you’re buying it as a symbol of love or devotion or whatever you want to use it for. I’ve seen women buying themselves diamond studs that are lab-growns. They’re like, “Well, why should I wait for my boyfriend to buy me one?” It’s not $20,000 anymore; it’s $2,000, $3,000, and they’re taking it upon themselves to buy it for themselves.
Now, don’t get me wrong. If the average person who wouldn’t have the money for a five-carat diamond buys a five-carat lab-grown, yeah, people wouldn’t know it’s not a real stone, or a natural diamond I should say. It’s still a diamond, but people would not suspect this person could afford it. They would think it’s CZ or moissanite or something like that. But as long as you stay within the realm of what your circle is, nobody would ever suspect that you have a lab-grown diamond.
Sharon: That’s interesting. It’s worth a second thought.
Ed: Yeah. I strongly recommend them.
Sharon: I know you do a lot of teaching, too.
Ed: I don’t teach regularly. I host classes down here every two years because we all need to get our seven-hour update. Between you and me, not much changes, just the wording, but I have an old friend, also from Jewelry Camp, who comes in and does it. She’s a certified instructor and does the seven hours. To be honest with you, it’s really done for selfish reasons, which is mainly so I get my time in and I get to travel somewhere.
Believe it or not, business down here in the southeast is quite plentiful; it’s quite important. Do I see large, 20-carat diamonds? No, that’s New York or Florida or California, but I do see a lot of people. One of the things about appraising, you have to have a good bedside manner. You can’t insult people. I had one instance where I said to a gentleman, “These items are going to be appraised for less than a certain price point at $1,000. I don’t think you need to have them appraised and spend $150 an item on me, but if you want them appraised, I’ll do it.” I said, “It’s your prerogative.” He said he had a strand of pearls worth a lot of money, and I didn’t see a strand of pearls worth a lot of money. Standard cultured pearls under five or six millimeters is not a $20,000 necklace, but whatever. People are told things from relatives.
Funny thing: I had one person once, when I lived up in New York, and I looked at the string and said, “This is a textbook example of a synthetic sapphire.” “Oh no, my grandfather told me it’s a real sapphire and it’s worth a lot of money.” “I’m sorry to disappoint you, but no, it’s not.” I didn’t charge for the appraisal. A few weeks later, a colleague and close friend of mine, Barry Block, gets the same stone and said, “Ed, it’s a synthetic.” I said, “Yeah, I know.” “I’m trying to explain to her it’s synthetic.” I said, “Barry, don’t.” From what I understand, later on she took it to the GIA. They called it a flame fusion synthetic sapphire, and she still didn’t even believe them. You get people, when they’re told a story, they believe it. You can’t prove anything wrong because they believe it, even though you’re showing them pictures in the book and showing it through the microscope. They don’t quite want to hear what’s right or wrong. It’s interesting human nature.
Sharon: You brought up an interesting point. Last night I was watching a rerun of Antiques Roadshow. I was wondering if you look at the jewelry on there and think, “That’s not really the appraisal,” or “They never mention a buyer’s premium,” or that, if somebody gets something for $500, they’re going to pay at least more than half in fees.
Ed: Yeah, as I tell people, if you’re buying at auction, you’ve got to see what the fees are going to be. If you’re selling at auction, are there going to be fees? An estate I did here, after several months, the family decided to sell it. I had an auction company from New York I knew would do well with it come down and look at. It had some interesting pieces in it. Some of the pieces were not correct, and the client knew that, but they got some strong cash offers for the collection. As a matter of fact, the sale is coming up in Phillips this June. They decided to do that, and I was like, “That’s great.” I don’t care. I’m not making money on it. I did my fee for the appraisal, and I made the introductions and I was there. I was paid for my time, so it didn’t matter if they sold it for cash or sold it through auction. In that particular instance, there were a lot of pieces; it was a great collection. The client is paying nothing, but there are situations where the client does pay 15% or 20%.
When you’re figuring value, you’ve got to figure in the buyer’s premium when you’re buying at auction. Some places are as high as 20%, 25%. If you don’t figure that into your purchase price, you may overpay for something. Auctions are great because they’re a lot of fun, especially live when you’re in the audience. You watch people bidding, and then somebody really wants something. The auctioneers do their best to represent the best they can get for anything. They try to make sure what they’re giving you is accurate, but as I tell everybody, if you want to buy at auction, check the rules. Check what they have disclosed, check what they’re liable for, read the condition reports, look at the piece yourself, try it on. They all have previews. Decide that way, because that’s the best way, especially if you’re spending a lot of money.
You could save money on diamonds—natural diamonds; I can’t see putting a lab-grown up for auction—but you should be able to save a considerable amount of money buying something at auction. Again, like I said, going online to buy a diamond, you can save considerable amounts of money. I don’t recommend buying colored stones online because color is a personal preference, so you want to see that in person. But with diamonds, the normal person is not going to notice too much difference with their naked eye. As a matter of fact, I don’t notice too much either anymore, unless I have my glasses on. That’s about it on that, but I do recommend people are aware. Like I said, buying at auction is fun and educational for people.
Sharon: I’m surprised when they give a price and say, “The retail price would be this,” or “I think this would be conservative at retail.” I always want to jump in and say, “Oh, that’s retail,” but it isn’t really.
Ed: I know some smaller auction companies do that. I know some online sites that are selling people’s merchandise for them will say suggested retail, what the retail price is, and what they’re selling it for. It’s not misleading in my opinion. It’s just letting you know that the price was originally $7,000, and today you’re able to get it for $2,500. If you went into the store and bought it, you’d pay $7,000, but right now, it’s used; it’s in excellent condition; all the boxes and papers and everything else you need are here; it’s complete for $2,500.
Now, people who sell on those sites also have to keep in mind what the site is charging you as a fee for selling, because there are no buyer premiums there. The seller is paying that commission to those sites. You’ve got to keep that in mind when you’re doing something like that. People will go, “Well, I’m going to go have it appraised,” and I say, “Well, if you’re selling, why are you having it appraised? I’m not buying it.” In certain situations, I do the appraisal because there’s a reason. But if you’re selling something, I recommend you go to several places to get estimates. You’ll see the comparison, and the estimates will be very close to each other, and you’ve established a guideline.
Paying for somebody to appraise it who’s not buying it, I’m not putting my money where my mouth is. I could tell you, “You should be able to see up to $4,000,” and you go to four different jewelers, and they all turn around and say $1,800 or $2,000. I’m not buying it. I’m not working off a formula. I’m actually making calls to dealers, seeing what they’re offering, what the market is bearing. That’s how I come up with a price if somebody wants to sell something for them. I normally don’t recommend it because you’re paying me for my time. Like I said, if you go to three legitimate, honest, old-world jewelers, they will all be within the same range and be willing to work with you and get you a price. That’s what I suggest to people.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I wouldn’t think about not having it appraised. It makes a lot of sense. What kind of licenses or training do you need to do this?
Ed: There’s no licensing for personal property appraisers. There is licensing for real estate appraisers. If you want to appraise, you should take a class. Some of these organizations offer excellent classes to give you a background in valuation theory. There’s a number of books one can read. There are one or two schools that still teach valuation theory that I recommend, depending on what you want to go into. If it’s jewelry, the group ASA offers several good classes. AAA, another appraisal group, offers very good classes. ISA offers some very good classes.
One of the more important things a lot of people forget is product knowledge. How are you going to appraise something if you don’t have knowledge of the product? That’s where places like Jewelry Camp come in, where other lectures and talks come in. They are very important because, without product knowledge, you could hire an expert to look at it and tell you, yes, it’s real, but you should be able to do a lot of that yourself, unless you have a suspicion something’s not right. So, I do recommend product knowledge.
As far as theories and concepts, a lot of places like to make appraisals more important than they really are. As long as you do your research and your documentation, provide whatever is needed for that particular assignment, explain what you’re doing in your scope of work, and maintain all your files and notes, you’ve pretty much got it.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to The JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About John Moore:
With unbridled self-expression at its core, the work of multi-award-winning artist John Moore inhabits a nameless realm of possibility without frontiers. Currently represented by Elisabetta Cipriani Gallery in London and Charon Kransen in New York, he is a unique and evolving presence in the world of art jewellery. His distinctive creations have appeared at high profile fairs and exhibitions in the UK, Europe and the USA, including Masterpiece London, Design Miami, SOFA Chicago, MIART Milan, PAD Monaco and PAD London.
Moore’s work has been recognized with a number of awards, most notably The Goldsmiths Company Award both in 2016 and 2019. Affectionately known as The Jewellery Oscar, it is ‘only given when, in the [Goldsmiths Craft and Design] Council’s judgement, an entry achieves the highest standard of creative design and originality.’ Commissioned by international collector Tuan Lee, renowned for her taste in statement pieces, his 2019 winning entry, Lacewing, is the latest in the Verto series. Made from sterling silver discs embellished with 48 diamonds set with 18ct gold, Lacewing takes precious jewellery into a new realm, commanding attention and challenging the notion of jewellery as an accessory.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jeff Russak:
Jeff Russak is the owner of Lawrence Jeffrey Estates Jewelers. His expertise in Antique and 20th Century Jewelry combined with an uncompromising attitude toward quality, condition and style directs the acquisition process. Jeff’s proficiency in signed pieces and hallmarks is especially useful in identifying and dating each piece. He is a speaker on antique jewelry at museums and shows as well as volunteers as a guest appraiser for charity.
Additional resources:
Circa 1950s, France. 8.80 carat Mandarin Orange Sapphire and Diamond Ring
Circa 1980s, New York City. Angela Cummings for Tiffany & Co. Pair of Inlaid Stone Gold Bangle Bracelets
Antique Mogul Earrings c1820-80, a Trio of Necklaces c1860s Spain and Three Diamond set Bangles by Katy Briscoe c2000s
Circa 1960s One-Of-A-Kind Swiss Modern Gold Cuff Bracelet
Circa 1920s, New York City. Double Clip Seahorse Brooch by Marcus & Co.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About National Association of Jewelry Appraisers
Founded in 1981, the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers is the largest international professional appraisal association exclusively devoted to the valuation and appraisals of gems and jewelry, watches, and the specialized needs of jewelry appraisers. The Association’s primary purpose is to make available the services of highly qualified independent and professional appraisers of gems and jewelry to the public. In addition, NAJA promotes the trademark and professional designations earned by members in order to ensure that they are among the best-informed appraisers in the industry.
About Gail Brett Levine
Gail Brett Levine is an independent personal property appraiser who has been in the jewelry trade for 30 years, specializing in insurance, estate, claims and donation appraisals of antique, estate and contemporary jewelry, precious metals, loose diamonds and colored stones and gem consulting. Gail began her jewelry career as President of the antique shop Presidential Antiques Co., Inc. based in Alexandria, VA, where she focused on antique, period and estate jewelry. She received her Graduate Gemologist in residence (New York) in 1980.
Gail is the Executive Director of the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers, a role she has served in for 15 years. She has also been the Secretary-Treasurer for the Manhattan Chapter of Gemological Institute of America’s Alumni Association since 1982.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cristina Filipe:
Cristina Filipe is a leading figure in Portuguese art jewelry and has a Ph.D. in Artistic Studies from the Catholic University of Portugal. She is a professor, researcher, artist and author of “Contemporary Jewellry in Portugal: From the Avant Garde of the 1960s to the Early 21st Century.” Cristina was awarded the Susan Beech Mid-Career Artist Grant from the Art Jewelry Forum for the publication and translation of her book which examines the history of Portuguese contemporary jewelry, accompanied by a visual narrative.
Throughout her artistic career, Cristina has participated in various exhibitions, showing her own work and as a curator. She has organized several projects and events, including symposiums, workshops and exchanges, both in Portugal and abroad. Her work is represented in public and private art collections, namely at MUDE – the Design and Fashion Museum in Lisbon. She is the author of several articles, essays and texts about contemporary jewelry. In 2004, Cristina founded PIN, the Portuguese association for contemporary jewelry.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About JoAnne Spiller
JoAnne Spiller is the Director of Education at the Jefferson County Historical Society based in Madison, Indiana. She has more than two decades of museum education experience with an emphasis on children’s educational programming. She recently organized the exhibit “Bill Smith: Madison’s Visionary Jewelry Designer,” and is currently conducting research for a book on Bill Smith’s life and career.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Bill Smith was a trendsetting Black jewelry designer who did everything from Cartier collaborations to costume jewelry. His designs were seen on the likes of Lena Horne and Cicely Tyson. Yet in the 30 years since his death, his impact has been largely forgotten. JoAnne Spinner, Director of Education for the Jefferson County Historical Society, hopes to change that with her recent exhibit, “Bill Smith: Madison’s Visionary Jewelry Designer” and a forthcoming book she is currently researching. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about Bill’s trendsetting designs; how he found his path as a gay Black man from a small town; and why his work is worth collecting. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, we’re talking with JoAnne Spiller, the Director of Education for the Jefferson County Historical Society located in Madison, Indiana. She recently curated an exhibition about Bill Smith who came from Madison, Indiana. Welcome back.
Tell us a little bit more about the body jewelry. You mentioned that and we haven’t really talked about it.
JoAnne: Oh, the body jewelry! He designed clothes made of, say, pearls or metal chain or gold-colored coins, fake coins; halters and skirts and crazy little headpieces, collars. The body jewelry really set him apart. Barbara Walters interviewed him and had a runway show with his body jewelry. I’d love to have a clip of that, at least to look at it and hear Bill’s voice because I don’t know what he sounds like. His body jewelry put him on the scene. It was crazy, and it was meant to be worn over clothing. Some of it was skimpy clothing; it just depended on the runway and where they were having their show. If it was a lady’s luncheon, then they were wearing leggings and turtlenecks underneath, but some of the actual fashion shows were a little more risqué. That was the timeframe. Everything was loosening up as far as dress code, I suppose, but it was out there, and it went crazy.
Richelieu thought it was gimmicky, but Bill pressured them into manufacturing some of them. They were all done by hand and sent to high-end department stores for display to catch your eye when you walked by. Who was really going to wear a garment made of giant pearls? People ate it up. They loved it. Pretty soon, they were having orders that were hard to keep up with, according to Clifton, and all the fashionistas were wearing it. I have an article that states that even brides were excited about wearing his pearl jewelry. I would love to get a hands-on look at someone wearing pearl jewelry for a wedding. That’s got to be out there.
That was his big start, just big, bold, in-your-face, why-would-you-ever-wear-that jewelry. It’s very experimental. Some of the chains were heavy. To wear a halter or a cape or a skirt made of that must have been uncomfortable. Some of his pearl scarves are six feet long. I can’t imagine carrying that weight around.
I did a reproduction of one of his pearl dresses for my exhibit. I called her Pearl. My boss put her on a Christmas tree stand and she actually twirls, so you can see the movement in the garment. It’s on just a plain mannequin. It took me probably 15 hours to make it. I did the halter. I did the whole thing. It’s the showstopper, but it is the only way we will ever have that kind of garment in our collection. We can’t afford it. We’re small. We’re so small. We would love to have one, but it’s just out of our reach. So, for $53 for the design, I made Pearl. She twirls, and she’s wonderful.
Sharon: Those were on Vogue covers, weren’t they?
JoAnne: Absolutely. High society ladies were wearing them because it was so—I don’t want to say obnoxious. It was one of those things where it was in your face. I don’t know how you sat in it, but they would wear them.
Sharon: The literature I was reading said he designed for Naomi Sims and Lena Horne and a lot of other well-known people. Do you think it’s stashed in a drawer? They don’t have any idea whose it is?
JoAnne: I’m going to guess yes. He and Naomi were very good friends. There’s a magazine spread that shows the two of them, and she’s wearing the cuffs he designed for Cartier. That’s another example of the high-end stuff, these cuffs, but I haven’t seen them in a while. He did the covering for her hair for her personally. That was her own item. I know Lena Horne wore his things, and Cicely Tyson and Loretta Young wore them on her TV show.
When I have time, I go through photo archives just hoping to find something I can attribute to him, someone wearing that. Not a whole lot of luck right now. Naomi Sims has passed away. I believe Cicely Tyson and Loretta Young are no longer with us. The field of people who may have his jewelry is very small, at least the people I know about, and it’s hard trying to find that connection, as if maybe they do have a piece I can at least look at. I don’t need to have it per se, but I sure would like to see it and photograph it and include it in my book. I’m sure there’s a treasure trove out there and somebody with no idea what they have.
Sharon: You mentioned your book. You intend to write a book, right?
JoAnne: Absolutely. I’ve had about two dozen people say, “You need to write a book. You know so much about him,” and I say, “Well, I’m working on it.” Like I said, I have a 5½-inch binder of research. I’ve spoken to Clifton, who worked with him for two years. I spoke with John Higgins, the fashion designer, a few weeks ago. I messaged him on a whim. I said, “I know you two collaborated on some things,” because John used a lot of Bill’s jewelry in his runway shows. Bill even designed a belt buckle for him, which would be fun to see. He reached out to me, and we had a 45-minute conversation about their friendship and their collaboration. That’s going to go into the book because it shows his personality.
But there are very few people I can still speak to that know anything about him. His family is basically gone. He had one sister. She had two sons. One son passed away early, and the other one did not want anything to do with Bill. When Bill’s sister, Gladys, passed away, this nephew got rid of all the jewelry. Everything that she had of his is gone. I have no idea where it is. He said it was a big box. I can’t imagine. Some of those pieces have probably come back to me, but he did not want that connection and basically severed it that way. I hope they’re not in a dump somewhere. I hope they’re out there and someone is enjoying them in their collection, but there’s no one left in his family to speak to.
He would have been 90 this year in November, so my field is very limited with people he may have worked with. My goal is next month, I’m going to New York City for a research trip, and I need to go to the New York Public Library. I need to speak to Sebastian Grant; he’s at the Fashion Institute. He and I had a conversation. He wrote an article on my exhibit, a very lovely young man. I’m hoping to meet with some people and see where his original store was and maybe where the factory was and try to nail down some specifics about his death. So, I’ll be in the big city, but I’ll be doing work.
Sharon: That’s why I don’t go to New York for research trips; I don’t get much work done. I can’t just sit there for a conference when everything’s going on around me.
Why don’t we know who he is today? Nobody knows who he is. I couldn’t even find anything that talked about his death.
JoAnne: I have conflicting dates on his death. His great niece thinks it was November or December of 1989. John Higgins, when I spoke to him, said, “Oh, that can’t be true. I saw him in an elevator in either 1990 or 1991.” Now I have more Bill Smiths to look into, but it’s very difficult to find a William F. Smith—he went by Bill—in the obituaries. There are hundreds of them.
Sharon: There must be.
JoAnne: I have a list of about 12 possibilities, which is also why I’m going to New York. I’m going to try to at least look at the death certificate—because he did pass away in New York—and nail down the date so I can say definitely that this is when he passed away. John’s adding a couple of extra years to that really threw me for a loop because the great niece was so certain he passed away in a certain year, but John was certain that he saw him in an elevator. So, I don’t know which one is true.
We have a genealogist on staff here. She just retired, and Linda couldn’t find him dead or alive. If an expert can’t find him, I’m not sure how I’m going to find him. I am going to New York to try to find him to get some closure, because I think the great niece would like to know where he is as well. He was most likely cremated, but she did not indicate that the family has his remains.
Sharon: As a designer, did he retire?
JoAnne: There are indications that he felt unappreciated, and that people were no longer excited about his work. Part of that may have been because in the 80s, if he did pass away in 1989, even it was 1990 or 1991, he died of AIDS-related pneumonia. He probably wasn’t well, and with the stigma of AIDS, people probably did not want to be associated with him. At the time, they had no idea how it was transmitted, and he would have been ostracized because of that. It must have been a very difficult time in his life, to go from being on top and being lauded as a wonderful designer with all of these awards.
Sharon: He was the first Black man to win a Coty Design Award.
JoAnne: Especially for jewelry design.
Sharon: Yes, for jewelry.
JoAnne: Yes, that was a pretty big deal. He did win the Great Design Competition for Swarovski before that. He designed this crazy collar that was inspired by space. There are a lot of wires and balls and things like that. By the way, he also designed the crown for Miss Black America in, I think, 1970. I have to look at my notes. There are so many dates running around in my head. That’s another thing I have to track down; I wonder if the crown still exists and where it is. I’m excited to see that as well. I have a photo of the woman wearing it, but I’d like to see it in person.
Sharon: Yeah, you know a little about it.
JoAnne: That was one of the things I came across in my research, and it was like, “Hold the phone.” I went down this rabbit hole to try to find a conclusion to the research on this crown.
You asked why nobody knows about him. I think a lot of it was because he didn’t sign a lot of his jewelry. That was a contractual thing. He only signed the high-end versions of his jewelry. In the jewelry industry, from what I understand from Clifton, and I could be extremely wrong, but you have your really high-end stuff that’s signed, and then you get your higher-end department store version of it not signed, and then you get your secondary department store version and it’s a little rougher; it doesn’t have the quality of materials; it’s less expensive and it’s not signed. So, how would you know you have something he designed?
Sharon: How did you know when you were looking at auctions? How did you know it was Bill Smith? Were they all signed?
JoAnne: Not all of them were signed, but I do have hundreds of photos of his work. I look at auction sites and try to follow ones that are reputable, with dealers that know what they’re talking about. Some people will say, “Oh, this is a Bill Smith,” and I say, “Oh, I don’t know. It might have been the right timeframe, but it’s not signed, and I haven’t seen an image of it.” I have hundreds of sketches from newspapers and photos from magazines that show his work. I keep those with me because I am obsessed, and that helps me when I’m looking at auction sites. When I’m out and about, I can reference what I have. I also have photographs of everything in my personal collection and here at the museum on my phone so I can reference good images if I’m out and about.
There are some things where I can be pretty sure it was his design because of the chain or the way the cabochon was set, but I don’t know that it’s worthy of us having it here in the museum in our collection per se because it’s not signed. We have limited real estate, what we call storage, and we can’t keep everything. I had some lower-end stuff in my exhibit because I wanted people to see that trickle-down of jewelry design I just spoke about, where you get the really high-end stuff, and then you get one the next level down that looks a lot like it, but it’s not as nice. Then you get the plain-Jane stuff at the end, but it’s still his design; it’s just for the everyday person. It’s not couture. We are trying to curate the best possible collection of his. I recently acquired a couple of pieces from a website, not only for here, but for myself. That was a bad day when I discovered that, but they’re all signed.
Sharon: Wow!
JoAnne: Yes, they’re all wonderful. I think I purchased three or four for the museum and 11 for myself.
Sharon: Did the website know the value or that it was Bill Smith?
JoAnne: He had not heard much about him. Is it Melinda with The Jewelry Stylist? She’s out in California as well. I’d have to look her up. She’s got a website. She has two jewelry websites, and she wrote a book on Napier jewelry.
Sharon: Oh, Melinda Lewis, yes.
JoAnne: I bought a zodiac piece off one of her sites and then noodled over to the other site, and there was another zodiac piece. I bought that, and PayPal went, “I’m sorry. What? You just spent how much money on two different websites within minutes of each other?” It kicked back the transaction. So, she called and said, “Did you mean to cancel this? What happened?” I said, “Well, I think PayPal just had a hiccup,” and she said, “Why are you buying two of these pieces?” So, we spoke. She’s like, “I didn’t know that about him,” and I said, “Absolutely.”
There’s a little danger, I think, of me sharing my knowledge because then everybody’s going to scoop his stuff up. I’m a hoarder; I want more. We want the best collection we can have because he’s from here. So, there is a danger in mentioning and raving about his stuff because maybe the good stuff is going to go for twice what I can afford now. The market’s certainly going to go up and I won’t be able to afford anything, but I do feel passionate about telling his story and getting it out there. It is so important because he was from a small town. He was Black. He was gay. He had all these things stacked against him in the early 50s, when we still had segregation going on in some parts of our town. His high school was only desegregated his senior year. He went to a mixed school his senior year. He went to an all-Black school for K-11. So, it’s a huge story that he went out and made it big. He knew a lot of famous people and designed a lot of great jewelry. When a jewelry designer and a fashion designer tell you that his story is important and it needs to be told, that reaffirms to me that I do need to tell that story of Bill.
Sharon: You sound like you could tell a story and the book would write itself almost.
JoAnne: Possibly. I have enough pictures to fill it for sure.
Sharon: Well, thank you so much for being with us today. Hopefully we’ll come across some of those pieces and send them on to you.
JoAnne: I hope so. That would be fantastic. I appreciate that you think his story is important to talk about on a podcast. That makes me very happy because it does need to be told, and the more people that help me tell it, the better. I really appreciate the time you’ve taken with me today.
Sharon: My pleasure. Hopefully I’ll get to talk to you when you publish your book. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About JoAnne Spiller
JoAnne Spiller is the Director of Education at the Jefferson County Historical Society based in Madison, Indiana. She has more than two decades of museum education experience with an emphasis on children’s educational programming. She recently organized the exhibit “Bill Smith: Madison’s Visionary Jewelry Designer,” and is currently conducting research for a book on Bill Smith’s life and career.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Bill Smith was a trendsetting Black jewelry designer who did everything from Cartier collaborations to costume jewelry. His designs were seen on the likes of Lena Horne and Cicely Tyson. Yet in the 30 years since his death, his impact has been largely forgotten. JoAnne Spinner, Director of Education for the Jefferson County Historical Society, hopes to change that with her recent exhibit, “Bill Smith: Madison’s Visionary Jewelry Designer” and a forthcoming book she is currently researching. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about Bill’s trendsetting designs; how he found his path as a gay Black man from a small town; and why his work is worth collecting. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, we’re talking with JoAnne Spiller, the Director of Education for the Jefferson County Historical Society located in Madison, Indiana. She recently curated an exhibition about Bill Smith who came from Madison, Indiana. A lot of you haven’t heard of Bill Smith. I had never heard of him. He was one of the first, if not the first, Black jewelry designers to garner attention. He was very well-known in the 60s through the 80s but is just a footnote today. JoAnne is going to tell us all about Bill Smith. JoAnne, welcome to the podcast.
JoAnne: Thank you for having me. I’m very excited to speak with you.
Sharon: I’m so glad you’re here. You came to Bill Smith through your education and your role. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
JoAnne: I have been the Director of Education here for 23 years. In the process of educating students, I have been building a file of famous Madisonians and Jefferson Countians from here who have gone on to do wonderful things. We are a very small community, and I think a lot of children don’t feel like there’s a lot of opportunity. Many of them don’t leave here; they stay. Their families have been here for generations. I wanted to let them know, especially among our minority community, that you can come from a small town and go on to do big and wonderful things out there in the world.
So, my file included Bill Smith. An article was given to us a few years ago with a note saying, “Hey, did you know anything about him?” and we did not. That started my journey of finding information about Bill. It has become quite an obsession if you ask anybody that knows me, especially my family.
Sharon: I had never heard of him, but he must have been something because he’s all over Google.
JoAnne: Yes, he is. He was born here in Madison in 1933. He had one sibling. They were a working-class family, and he went onto IU at the encouragement of his art teachers here. He was very much into creating, sculpting, making jewelry, and he was also a dancer.
Sharon: That was his first thing, being a dancer, right?
JoAnne: Yes, being a dancer. He went to IU to dance. He took art classes and was extremely encouraged by the art teachers there. After three semesters, he left. His teachers felt like he was ready to move on and do big things, so he left to go to New York to become a dancer. He could not find enough roles as a Black man in the 1950s. He graduated high school in 1951, so this would have been about 1953 or 1954 when he went out to New York, and he just couldn’t find the roles to support himself. So, he turned to jewelry making.
According to my research, he became an assistant or apprentice or helper to some jeweler in New York who needed help following some kind of accident. That’s what I’ve read. Bill stepped in and was extremely talented at what he did. Somewhere in that process, he struck out on his own and had his own experimental design company. This was in the late 50s. He met Raymond St. Jacques, who was a Black actor out in Hollywood. He was in a lot of westerns and rough-‘em-up kind of movies. Somehow, they formed a partnership and became Smith St. Jacques. Raymond was the financial backing for the early company, and Bill was the creative director. That business went on for several years until he caught the eye of Massimo Sargis at Richelieu, and then he started his big, wonderful costume jewelry career.
Sharon: He always worked in costume, but did he ever work in gold or silver?
JoAnne: I do have an ad in a magazine that shows Cartier work. He did work briefly for Cartier and Georg Jensen, who was a silversmith. For Cartier, he had some pendants I’ve seen that are polished stones, flat, and they are embellished with gold, I’m assuming, because it’s Cartier. They’ve turned them into belts, like some of his other funky belts we have examples of. But as far as I know, those two companies are the only ones that would have had the finer materials. I have read that he did work with some high-end materials early on, before Smith St. Jacques. He did special orders and he worked for some of the higher-end department stores, but I do not have examples of those. Everything I have seen and have my hands on has been costume jewelry.
Sharon: You have one of the largest, or maybe it is the largest, collections in the country that people know about.
JoAnne: It’s possible. It is very possible. We have more than 100 pieces of Bill’s. I would say two-thirds of them are signed. The others I can positively attribute to him because I have spoken with the person who helped with those designs. So, I can absolutely, concretely say that these things are his design. I personally have about 35 in my collection.
Sharon: In your personal collection?
JoAnne: Yeah, for my personal collection. They’re ones that speak to me, or maybe they’re duplicates of the ones we have at the museum, but I still like them. I actually wore one out the other night. Nobody understood it. They all looked at me sideways, but I had a good deal of fun wearing it. It was one of his early ones, the trueskin with the horse and the bird on a big, fat, heavy chain. People who know me know that’s not really my style. I was feeling bad that day, so I wore it. I wanted to get the story out. I wanted people to comment and ask so I could share my knowledge.
Sharon: I guess that’s leading into my next question. You curated this exhibit. What were the comments from people who came and had never heard of him?
JoAnne: They thought it was fantastic. I know they figured it was going to be this itty-bitty, halfway-put-together exhibit, and it wasn’t. People were actually astounded at what we had on display. We may be a small museum, but we have the glass cases and panels and things like that. We really did put together a very excellent display on him, and it was up for about a month. It was supposed to be exhibited in July instead of October, but I did not feel like I had enough of a collection to do that. I ended up getting more information on him in September that led me down another route, and then it was time to put the exhibit together.
Sharon: People walked away saying, “Well, that’s a great exhibit,” but did they walk away saying, “I never knew about him”?
JoAnne: A lot of them did. When I spoke earlier, I said a lot of people don’t leave this town—and they don’t; their roots go back generations. I am not from here. I’ve been here long enough where you could maybe consider me a native, but a few people that went to school with him came in and said, “Oh, we always knew he was going to do great things because he had such talent.” Unfortunately, they couldn’t give me much more than that. I don’t think they had a close relationship. They just knew of him and wanted to sneak a peek at what he had become later in life.
We did have a woman who loaned us a suede choker from one of his early collections. It has brass cutouts on it. It looks like a dog collar. She loaned it to us for the exhibition, and after seeing the display, she gave it to us. She gave it to the museum. She said, “This is where this piece belongs. It belongs with his collection.” Another woman, who is a recent native to our town, came into the museum three times to see this exhibit. Every time she came in, we had a discussion about it and she wanted to learn more. She would come in and say, “Hey, I saw this piece on eBay. What do you think of it?” She was bitten by the bug. She ended up gifting us an absolutely fantastic, rare piece before Christmas because she knew the story was important and she wanted to be part of it. She saw this piece and knew it was perfect for our collection, so she gave it to us. It was absolutely wonderful. It’s one of the ones I show when I do show and share.
Sharon: What were his heyday years?
JoAnne: That is an excellent question. I feel like it came and went in waves according to the company he was working with. Some of it is difficult to ascertain because his work is not always signed. Unless you have the backstory or you happen to know concretely that he did work on this collection, it’s hard to say when that big wave started. I do know that according to the 5½-inch binder of research I have—I’m not kidding you—most of the articles I have were from the late 60s into the early 70s. When he left Richelieu in 1970, he went to work for the parent company, O’Dell, which had Cartier and Ben Kahn fur. So, he did some furs. He worked for Mark Cross doing leather goods.
I mentioned the Cartier jewelry earlier. There’s a definite collection I know is his that’s all arrows, because arrows are his thing. He’s a Sagittarius, which he mentioned several times; it was the 60s. Arrows were very important to him, so I know that one of the Cartier collections with arrows is his, but it is not signed. It was very rare for a designer to sign their work at that time. For him to be able to sign it was pretty phenomenal.
Sharon: He didn’t seem to work for Cartier for that long.
JoAnne: He did not. I guess that was under the parent company. Unless I can find an article or a magazine photo that attributes it to him, I can’t be sure of all the collections he worked on. Of course, like any fashion, you design in one season, say the winter, but it’s for the spring collection. He may have worked for one company or another designing a collection, but it was launched after he left. There’s still a lot of investigation I need to do. The timeline for him, I don’t have it quite tightened up yet. I’m still working on it.
Sharon: You mentioned some of the costume jewelry companies he did work for. Let’s say O’Dell.
JoAnne: The parent company after Richelieu. He worked for Laguna. I do have a few pieces of his that are Laguna.
Sharon: Are they signed?
JoAnne: Yes, they are. I missed out on an auction the other day, and I kicked myself for a week. I’m still kicking myself. There are things I look for to complete a collection. Laguna is one of the ones he designed for. That company, if you Google it now, is all beach ware; it’s Laguna, California. It might be difficult to find things because I don’t think he did too many collections for them.
He also worked for Hattie Carnegie, but I can’t find anything of his that was signed. I have a newspaper article that shows a necklace, but the image is so poor I can’t tell what it looks like. I could have one in my collection; I wouldn’t even know it because I can’t tell from the image.
Sharon: What was his big break?
JoAnne: It was the body jewelry.
Sharon: The body jewelry?
JoAnne: The body jewelry he did with the pearls. I interviewed Clifton Nicholson, who himself is a very well-known designer in his own right. He lives 20 minutes from here. I spent an afternoon at Clifton’s studio, and he gifted me probably 150 pieces of jewelry.
Sharon: At one time?
JoAnne: Well, it was over two times. He came to see the exhibit in October. He called me a week later and came in with a big shopping bag full of jewelry that Bill had told him he could have when Bill was closing his Long Island studio to go work for Richelieu. Clifton grabbed whatever he saw. A lot of it was Bill’s original designs that aren’t signed but are definitely his. That was quite a gift. Then when I went back to have lunch with him and do an interview, he gave me another small bag of jewelry, still fantastic. There are several I have that are now positively identified because I found photos of them, so I can put the photos or the advertisements with the jewelry. I just love doing that; I love making that.
Sharon: Let’s say you have an unsigned piece. Can you look at it and say, “Oh, that’s Bill’s,” or “It looks like Bill’s”?
JoAnne: I can because I’ve been looking at them daily. He has a certain flair. There was a woman that came in and said, “Oh, I have this Richelieu bracelet and it’s a Bill Smith.” I looked at it and said, “I’m sorry, but it’s not. It’s too late. It’s too modern. He was not working for them at the time.” It was a late 80s design, and I said, “He was gone by then. That can absolutely not be identified as his.” I have a pretty good eye. I spend a lot of time when I travel looking at antique malls and flea markets hoping that something will call to me, and I will be able to find a piece I don’t have or I’ve never seen before. Then I ask my husband for the credit card so I can buy it. But I do think I have a fairly good eye for that. I can tell.
His early stuff is very rough and unfinished. Clifton told me a lot about the jewelry industry and designers and how that all worked. They riffed off each other all the time. You make a collection of crosses, and Avon’s got one too, and Kenneth J. Lane has one too. They’re all similar, but Kenneth’s are very, very polished and look extremely high-end. Bill’s stuff is a little more brutalist; it’s a little more rough around the edges. So, I can look at something and go, “Hmm,” or “It’s a knock-off.” Joan Rivers has stuff that looks like his early stuff. There’s no new design in jewelry, but I think I have a pretty good eye. It’s not fail-proof. Since Clifton gave me that early jewelry, I can look at it and get a feel for that time period. When I look at things online, I can say, “Maybe. That’s a strong maybe.”
Clifton was also very helpful because I had created a catalogue, so to speak, of all the jewelry I’ve seen on the internet that I know is Bill’s or maybe is Bill’s. Because they worked together for two years, we flipped through the whole book and he would say, “Yes, no, maybe, yes, no.” It was wonderful, because who else is going to be able to tell me that in a positive way? The zodiac collection, which I’m kind of obsessed with, is not signed, but Clifton, during one of my interviews, said, “Yeah, that’s Bill Smith’s design. He sketched it, I carved it,” so I can say that is one of his pieces even though it’s not signed.
That was a gift to me from Bill from above, I think. He sent Clifton to me. Clifton needed closure. I needed to have a conversation with someone that knew Bill. We met, and it was wonderful. It’s been so very helpful. I’ve been able to take my research to another level that I had not considered before. It was quite a blessing that Clifton came in, was wowed, and knew that this is where the pieces should be. He said, “I don’t know why I’ve been keeping these all these years. It must be because of this.” He’s been hanging onto those as long as I’ve been alive, I’m telling you. The bag of jewelry and I are the same age. It’s been a long time, but it was quite a gift. He knew we would take very good care of it, and he wants to help me to tell his story.
Sharon: He was Black, but he was also gay. When he went to New York, did he find more acceptance in the design community there?
JoAnne: I believe he did. At the time, in the early 70s, there was a boom of Black designers that were finally getting noticed, whether it was fashion or jewelry or some other kind of art form. They were finally getting some recognition and publicity outside of the Black community. The Black community supported them very well.
As far as the part about being gay, he was not as comfortable here in Madison as he would have been in New York. He needed to be away from a small town to be able to realize his potential. He could have gone to Chicago or Detroit, I suppose, but he took himself all the way to New York because he could, and he did. He knew that’s where he needed to be, and he did not give up; he persevered. I think he really was more accepted there than he was here.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Melanie Georgacopoulos
With a background in sculpture, jewellery designer Melanie Georgacopoulos works with materials in new ways to release their potential and stimulate new interpretations. She began her exploration of the pearl during her Master’s degree at the RCA in 2007, after which she worked as a freelance designer under Antoine Sandoz for major international brands, before establishing her eponymous label in 2010.
In Melanie’s work the paradoxical, intriguing nature of pearls and mother of pearl is at the core of every piece, whilst the aesthetic remains simple, structured and timeless. She continually strives to challenge the existing preconceptions of these organic materials and that of traditional jewellery design itself. It is this unique approach which has given her the opportunity to showcase her pieces regularly at fairs, exhibitions and galleries worldwide.
Melanie became well known internationally for her work with pearls, leading to her collaboration with TASAKI, which began in 2013. Directional line M/G TASAKI was born, marring Melanie’s flair to cross design boundaries with the Japanese jewellery company’s world renowned craftsmanship. Following the huge success of the seasonal collections Melanie was appointed Head Designer for M/G TASAKI in 2015. She has been a visiting lecturer at Central Saint Martins for the last four years whilst she continues to create her own collections and one-off pieces for special projects.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, we’re talking with Melanie Georgacopoulos. Melanie occupies some unusual niches. She’s a specialist in designing with pearls, which is very unusual. For those of you who are listening who think that pearls are too old-fashioned or too formal, she has really changed the way pearls are viewed. She lives in Hamburg but has her office in London. She’s also the Chief Designer for a collaboration with a Japanese company, Tasaki. Welcome back.
Do you work with pearls in all colors?
Melanie: Absolutely. This journey over the last few years has also been a journey for myself. I also started with this idea that there are only white, round pearls out there, and that’s not true. There are Tahitian pearls, South Sea pearls, Akoya pearls. There’s a whole world of natural pearls. There are different shapes, different sizes. Some are extremely rare, like conch pearls or melo pearls. Some are very common, like freshwater pearls.
During this journey of discovery for myself, I’ve tried to launch some collections which focus on a certain kind of pearl to highlight it. For one of the collections I did, the Nacre Collection, I paired a pink pearl with a pink mother of pearl in way that’s like the return of the pearl to its oyster, or a golden South Sea to the golden sea mother of pearl shell. Sometimes I’m sent messages through Instagram by suppliers or pearl farmers who say, “Hey, have you seen this? Do you want to work with what I make?” I’m like “Wow! This is new to me.” I’ve been working with pearls for 10 years and it keeps on giving. I find that fantastic.
Sharon: Do you have a favorite pearl? Do you think one is better than another? Is a South Sea pearl better or easier to work with than an Akoya?
Melanie: I don’t think there’s a better one. In terms of value, of course the more expensive the pearl, probably the better it is for investment. Another common thing I’ve heard said is that at the end of the day, you just have to like what it is you’re buying. You want to wear it. You don’t want to necessarily buy it and put it in the safe because you’re too scared to wear it or use it because it’s something too valuable.
I really enjoy working with South Seas because they are so large. I’ve almost finished a bracelet which has a mix of Tahitians and Akoyas, and it’s black and white. So, I’m mixing different kinds. The challenge with pearls is that they don’t all come in all the sizes and the colors you want. So, depending on the size or the color you want for a design, you have to get it from a specific place. A lot of times, people don’t mix a Tahitian pearl with a freshwater pearl because it’s not considered to be right. You just have to use Tahitians or you just have to use freshwater. Because I’m very design-led, I will say, “No, if I want to have a pearl graduation from a two-millimeter pearl to a three-millimeter pearl, then I’m going to mix the pearls.” But color-wise, they’re going to look exactly the same and they’re going to match together. So right now, it’s definitely South Seas, but ask me next year. I might have a different answer.
Sharon: I want to know where you find a three-millimeter pearl. That’s a big pearl.
Melanie: You wonder if it’s hiding something inside.
Sharon: Do people come to you and say, “Here are my grandmother’s pearls or my mother’s pearls. I want something different made out of them”?
Melanie: I have that too. They’re probably the most challenging pearls to work with because first of all, they’re very sentimental to their owners. It’s the one thing you can’t throw away, but you also don’t want to wear it and you don’t know what to do with it. A lot of those poor pearl necklaces stay in boxes, and it’s challenging to say to someone, “Can I drill that necklace? Can I change it quite a bit? Are you sure, or do you want to keep it original the way you inherited it?”
But I have some great clients that text me photos and are like, “Oh, I have this necklace and I don’t know what to do with it. Maybe you have an idea.” Then I say, “O.K., but then you have to tell me who you are,” because it’s designed for them. It's not even a piece they chose to buy themselves. It’s something they inherited. They never decided, “This is the pearl size I like or that suits me.” A lot of times, I need to add or change it quite dramatically so they can incorporate it into their daily life and feel that it’s part of them. But I love those challenges, I have to say. I invite those challenges. I learn a lot from them.
Sharon: Do you look at a necklace and see what it could be?
Melanie: I have to get the measurements. This is the age of digital now, which means photos. I ask them to take a photo of the necklace next to a ruler so I understand how big it is, how long the necklace is or how big the pearls are, because you’re not going to ask a person you’ve never met to send you their pearl necklace. We have a lot of conversations before anything actually happens. I need to understand what their budget is—that’s also important—and what their expectation is. Sometimes they want a bracelet; sometimes they want earrings. So, we need to discuss that. Then see what I can actually do with the piece they have, because sometimes they have unrealistic expectations. I have to rein them in a little bit.
Sharon: When you say unrealistic expectations, do they expect you to make the pearl larger when it’s really small?
Melanie: Yeah, I think sometimes they have an idea of a pearl necklace or a piece of jewelry, a bracelet, and that’s not possible with the pearls from the necklace they have. So, we either need to add pearls, or we need to start fresh and use the existing pearl necklace for something else.
Sharon: You also mix gold and other things with your pearls. You had a couple of necklaces with gold woven in.
Melanie: Yeah, I use gold, 18 carats. I also use diamonds. I’ve worked with sapphires before, anything really. I used silver chains at the beginning. A few years ago, I was doing larger pieces, so it made more sense to use silver. I used palladium at some point.
You can’t do everything with everything. The best thing is to figure out what you want to make and then the best way to make it. Sometimes it’s a question of cost. Sometimes it’s a question of what the client wants. Sometimes it’s what I want the design to be and how much I’m willing to compromise, but at the end of the day, it needs to be a piece of jewelry that can be worn and enjoyed. That’s when the piece of jewelry really becomes alive.
Sharon: So, you have your own brand and your Tasaki collection. That’s a lot of designing.
Melanie: Yeah, I love it. I’m really lucky. It’s exactly what I wanted.
Sharon: Have you ever been approached by other places who see what you do with the pearls? Do they say, “Hey, that’s really different. Why don’t you come do it for us?”
Melanie: Yes, but so far, my relationship with Tasaki is working so well that I don’t need to look anywhere else. I’m also not greedy. I’m very loyal. I want this to run its course, until whenever it’s meant to go, and see what happens. Obviously, there are elements I can control, and that is how much I love to work for them and how good the designs are. There are a lot of cultural, social, political elements I can’t control. There’s no way to know when this is going to end or slow down, but for now I haven’t found another partnership that has offered me the degree of freedom I have and the satisfaction I get from seeing the M/G Tasaki pieces on demanding Japanese clients.
Sharon: Has anybody ever brought you a whole bunch of conch pearls or melo pearls or natural pearls and not realized what they had?
Melanie: Not yet. I think that’s part of my wish list, that someone comes with a suitcase full of conch or melo pearls and says, “How much are these strange-looking pearls?” I would send them straight to the bank or to an auction house. I think it’s the age where more people know what they have because they’re able to find a lot of information on the internet. I think more and more it’s the sentimental aspect of what you have. Of course, if you are a millionaire, then it’s different, but I’m not. I think a lot of times, we cherish things that have no monetary value, but they’re highly, highly sentimental. So, we’ll see. Maybe someone does have one.
Sharon: Do they bring natural pearls to you?
Melanie: Some do, yes. They have natural pearl strands, but the pearls tend to be quite small. They were made at a different time. A hundred years ago, you didn’t have access to cultured pearls. That trend had just started. So, there are still people who have inherited a small, thin strand of natural pearls.
Sharon: You won a prize for the Diamond Fishbone Bangle, which I thought was gorgeous. Tell us about the prize and how you heard about it. Can you wear this bracelet with the mother of pearl? It looks very fragile. That’s what it looks like.
Melanie: It’s not as fragile as it looks. No one really goes around banging their hands when they’re wearing jewelry. I think you’re a bit conscious when you wear something. Even when you’re wearing a nice pullover, you’re not going run your arm on the wall. You’re a bit more self-conscious. The prize was great because it’s a wonderful group, the Cultured Pearl Association of America, if I’m not mistaken, and Jennifer Heebner is the executive director. We’ve been in touch with her. It’s a great recognition. It’s always nice when your peers recognize something good you’ve done.
Recently I got another award in London from the Goldsmiths, which is a very old institution. They awarded my lapidary work. I submitted a bangle made of mother of pearl which was carved. I had two old mine-cut diamonds inserted and set with gold prongs. I think they recognized the audacity and the search to present something new. This is how I took the award, and it gives me energy to carry on what I do. But I get the award and then the next day, I still wake up and take my kids to school. Life goes on very quickly after the awards, but it’s still a nice recognition.
Sharon: Why did you name it the Diamond Fishbone?
Melanie: Because I’m not very good with names of jewelry. I always try to stay quite close to reality. Because the sheets of mother of pearl are layered in a fishbone pattern, I thought I would name it the Fishbone.
Sharon: I see, O.K. Originally, I thought, “Why is it a fishbone?” Did the prize make any difference in what you do?
Melanie: If it had been accompanied with a check of $500,000 U.S. dollars, it could have made a big difference. I could have bought some conch or some melos. No, it doesn’t really, but it’s a nice recognition. Unfortunately, they don’t come with monetary prizes, which would be nice, to be honest, because it’s nice to get that kind of support. But it’s already a really nice accolade. That’s why I entered last year also, and that’s why I try and present work to these awards. I think it is important that other people become aware of the work I do. I think it’s quite inspiring to students to see that these pieces are possible to make and that someone is doing them.
Sharon: Some people feel like they entered and didn’t win, so why are they going to all this trouble? Do you feel that way at all?
Melanie: No. I entered the Susan Beech Award recently over Christmas. I spent a big chunk of my Christmas writing that proposal. I didn’t get shortlisted, and that’s O.K., but that was quite a difficult entry for a competition. You have to write down the budget, and it was a lot of work. It wasn’t just, “Oh, I’m submitting a photo and the dimensions of the piece.”
Sometimes someone comes a few years later and says, “Hey, I was part of the award panel, the judging panel. You didn’t get it, but I still remember that piece you did. Maybe you want to do something now.” So, even if the result is not immediate in that I might have expected to win the award, other things are happening in the background that I’m not necessarily aware of and which might surface a few months or a few years later. So, it’s a process. It's not really about winning. It’s more about making steps, connecting to people, being active and not expecting things to come to me. I really see it like this.
Sharon: I have questions about several things you said. I read this on your website or Tasaki’s website; I don’t remember where. Actually, I remember a couple of things. You talked about a statement piece. I happen to like statement pieces, but every time I look at statement, they’re not my kind of statement. But you had really different statement pieces, so I thought, “Well, that’s interesting.” You described pearls as gems. Do you consider them a gem of sorts?
Melanie: They are officially gemstones.
Sharon: Are they?
Melanie: Yeah, they are classified as gemstones. There are other organic gemstones such as coral, but there was a time when pearls were considered the only organic gemstones. That’s why I also call them gems. I think the way they’re made is fascinating, because even if they’re cultured—most pearls are cultured these days—you still need a little oyster to do the work for a couple of years to get one. Of course, the oyster is inseminated, but you still need that little animal to do this. For me, this is magical. It feels like a gem anyway because it is precious, but I think officially we call them gemstones.
Sharon: I don’t think of them as gemstones, but that’s interesting. What I was surprised at was that you developed cufflinks for men. Not many people design jewelry for men. What does that do for you?
Melanie: I think this is a sector which is going to grow. I think more and more men are interested in their appearance. You see the cosmetic industry growing. Fashion, of course, is growing. If you look at red carpets, the Oscars, you see more and more men wearing not only jewelry, but pearl necklaces. That has happened in the last year, year-and-a-half. It’s always the classic white pearl necklace, because I think this is the contrast they’re looking for in terms of cultural significance. I don’t know if it’s going to progress into different kinds of pearl jewelry, but there is a lot of interest from men now to extend their style into jewelry, and cufflinks are quite a big part of how they dress formally, although not in their everyday lives necessarily.
Sharon: I have been told that men collect cufflinks. My husband doesn’t wear them, but I have been told that men do collect cufflinks. You’re very international. Is it that your dad is Greek and your mom is Greek and French?
Melanie: My dad is Greek. My mother is French. Now I am married to a German, hence living in Hamburg, and my brother lives in Switzerland. We’re still European, so I guess not that international, but it’s interesting to grow up with two languages. It’s the same as my kids now, growing up with two languages and just being open to the world.
Sharon: So, you learned French before, and then you learned English just by going to school and learning?
Melanie: Yeah, English is the first international language taught in Greece. From the age of seven, I learned Greek at school. Then when I was able to study in Edinburgh, that’s where I really learned English in the sense of everyday life. Now I’ve learned German, so I speak my fourth language.
Sharon: Wow! How does it happen that you have a London office? You live in Hamburg, but you have a London office. How did that come about?
Melanie: That is because after I finished my studies at the Royal College of Art, I stayed there. I had my office and my business, and when we moved to Hamburg seven years ago, I decided to keep that. Moving to Hamburg was for personal reasons, and it made sense to keep all my contacts and my clients and my business where it started. Of course, there was Covid in between, but now what I’m trying to do is grow the German part. The business in London is still there. I have someone working for me there.
I’m able to fly quite often now after Covid, and now I’m in the process of looking at what kind of fairs I can do here in Hamburg. Of course, in Munich, there is a very big jewelry scene. I was at Munich Jewelry Week last week. I think there’s a lot to do in Germany because there’s a lot of jewelry manufacturing, and there are a lot of jewelry artists and practitioners. I haven’t had the opportunity to connect with this part of my life here in Hamburg yet, but I’m in the process of doing that now. It’s exciting.
Sharon: Were you unusual in that you opened your business right after school, right after the Royal College of Art?
Melanie: I don’t think so. That’s a positive and a negative, but if you finish a college like Central Saint Martins or the Royal College of Art, you are expected to be a designer or to start your own practice. I say it’s a negative because a lot of times you’re not encouraged or not given the possibility to work for other people so you really learn more about how a business is run with all the steps. You’re supposed to start everything from scratch by yourself. Obviously, this has its own challenges, but I think lots of us started our own brands straight after. Of course, over time, some people do end up working for others, and some people continue to do their own practice like I have.
Sharon: That’s very hard. Did you have business classes in school?
Melanie: No.
Sharon: No, nothing.
Melanie: After all the possible mistakes—and I’m going to make more—I’ve come to a conclusion that I’ve learned a lot from all the mistakes, and I’ve figured out how to do things my way. If I could go back, I think I would work longer for someone else, simply because it’s an invaluable experience. Once you’ve started your own company, it’s hard to then work for someone else, but it is what it is. I feel like I can stand on my own two feet now.
Sharon: Well, 10 years is a long time. It’s a short time and it’s a long time.
Melanie: Hopefully it’s a short time for me.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today. We really appreciate it.
Melanie: It’s been a pleasure talking with you Sharon. Thank you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Melanie Georgacopoulos
With a background in sculpture, jewellery designer Melanie Georgacopoulos works with materials in new ways to release their potential and stimulate new interpretations. She began her exploration of the pearl during her Master’s degree at the RCA in 2007, after which she worked as a freelance designer under Antoine Sandoz for major international brands, before establishing her eponymous label in 2010.
In Melanie’s work the paradoxical, intriguing nature of pearls and mother of pearl is at the core of every piece, whilst the aesthetic remains simple, structured and timeless. She continually strives to challenge the existing preconceptions of these organic materials and that of traditional jewellery design itself. It is this unique approach which has given her the opportunity to showcase her pieces regularly at fairs, exhibitions and galleries worldwide.
Melanie became well known internationally for her work with pearls, leading to her collaboration with TASAKI, which began in 2013. Directional line M/G TASAKI was born, marring Melanie’s flair to cross design boundaries with the Japanese jewellery company’s world renowned craftsmanship. Following the huge success of the seasonal collections Melanie was appointed Head Designer for M/G TASAKI in 2015. She has been a visiting lecturer at Central Saint Martins for the last four years whilst she continues to create her own collections and one-off pieces for special projects.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Melanie Georgacopoulos has done a few things to pearls that would make an old-school pearl lover gasp. She’s cut them, drilled them and combined them in taboo ways, but the result is elegant, modern jewelry for a new generation. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her collaboration with Japanese pearl brand Tasaki; which types of pearls she loves to work with; and why she didn’t appreciate pearls until she saw what was inside. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, we’re talking with Melanie Georgacopoulos. Melanie occupies some unusual niches. She’s a specialist in designing with pearls, which is very unusual. For those of you who are listening who think that pearls are too old-fashioned or too formal, she has really changed the way pearls are viewed. She lives in Hamburg but has her office in London. She’s also the Chief Designer for a collaboration with a Japanese company, Tasaki. We will hear all about her jewelry journey today. Melanie, welcome to the program.
Melanie: Thank you for inviting me, Sharon. I’m delighted to be here.
Sharon: Melanie and I went through a lot of iterations with the time, so I’m glad we did connect. Tell us about your jewelry journey and how you started working with pearls.
Melanie: I have to say I am very lucky, because I’ve known from quite a young age that I wanted to be creative, and more specifically that I wanted to work in the field of jewelry. I must have been around 12 or 13 years old when I started making things with my hands. I didn’t quite know what to do with them, so my brother suggested I use them as jewelry somehow. That gave me a purpose to create objects that related to the body somehow. By the time I finished school, I was 100% focused on the idea that I wanted to involve myself in jewelry.
I grew up in Greece, by the way, so my first step was to study in Athens. I found a private vocational school where I learned about traditional Greek jewelry techniques, handmaking and production. It was more focused on technique rather than design. After those three years, I decided to broaden my horizons, so I went to Edinburgh College of Art and studied sculpture. I went from something quite small to something very large. I did a BA there. After that, I felt that I still needed help to figure out exactly what my voice was.
I was very lucky; I applied for the Royal College of Art and got a place in the jewelry department, which is a master’s of two years. I had a fantastic time there. It was during those two years that I discovered pearls. At the time, I was working with a lot of different materials, and I was designing a lot, but I hadn’t really found my voice yet. By chance I started working with pearls. My first thought was, “What’s inside them? They look intriguing.” I cut one up and saw those broad circles, and I was fascinated; I was surprised; I was intrigued, and I started learning about pearls. I graduated from the RCA, the Royal College of Art, with a collection of deconstructing the pearl necklace.
After graduating, I decided to stay in London. I worked as a jewelry designer for a brand. We designed for other companies. A few years later, I decided to start my own brand because there was still a lot of interest in what I was doing, and I felt there was a niche to be explored. That was 10 years ago already. There was a niche to be explored about contemporary pearl jewelry. There wasn’t really anything exciting being done in the field, I felt. This is how my journey started into pearl jewelry.
Sharon: Did you have the emotional support of your family in this?
Melanie: I was very lucky. My parents encouraged me from a young age to find what I was interested in and pursue it. I was very passionate from a young age, and they recognized and encouraged that. They supported me for my studies, which in hindsight I’m also very grateful for because I was completely free to focus on my studies without any financial constraints. They said to me, “We just want you to find what you’re really interested in and the rest will follow,” and it has, actually.
Sharon: Did you come from an artistic family? Were they creative? Were they sculptors?
Melanie: In a way. My dad is a lawyer, but he always liked to build things with his hands and work in the garden. He really enjoyed that. My mom is an interior decorator. We always credit her for the artistic name in the family, but I think my dad secretly was also quite artistic, just not for his work. My brother ended up becoming an industrial designer. We were both encouraged to be quite creative. There were no constraints. At the time in Greece, there was a lot of focus on either becoming a doctor or a lawyer. Thankfully they kept us away from that career path.
Sharon: I’m very surprised that English schools would accept somebody who hadn’t already gone through their system.
Melanie: I think I was lucky. Going to the Royal College of Art was easier because I had graduated from Edinburgh. In order to get into Edinburgh, I needed to pass an English exam for the language and submit a portfolio which I had worked on. It wasn’t just, “O.K., if I show up, I’m going to get a place.” I had to compete for that.
I have to say it was quite a shock culturally to move from Greece to Scotland, but at the same time, it was an excellent training for my English. It was a place where you have to figure things out by yourself. There is no one there to hold your hand, so it made me quite resilient from the beginning. Also, I think it might be the English or British mentality that you have to work hard for what you get. No one is going to be there to hold your hand and provide things to you. You have to find your own way to make things happen, which is what I have continued up until today.
Sharon: When you went from Edinburgh to the Royal College of Art, was it a big change then, or was it just a continuation?
Melanie: It was a big change because I basically had no understanding of the impact it was going to have on me. I was moving to an extremely creative environment, very competitive, but also the people who are chosen to go to the Royal College of Art are extremely talented, extremely focused, extremely passionate. You come in thinking, “Oh, I’m going thrive here. I’m going to be the best,” and you realize that the other 20 people in your class are exactly the same as you, if not better. But it was a very nice context. It wasn’t competitive in a bad way; it was actually competitive in a good way.
It was very international. I still have contacts all over the world because I studied there. It was also a change because London is still a very international city in comparison to a place like Edinburgh. In hindsight, I’m so grateful to have come to Edinburgh because I did get a taste of Britain, whereas in London, you get a taste of the world, but not necessarily that much of England.
Sharon: So, you were studying, and you saw a hole in the marketplace? Tell us about that.
Melanie: When you do a master’s, you obviously try to do a lot of things at the same time. You’re trying to figure out who you are relatively, what is your own point of view in whatever you study, but let’s say it’s jewelry. I was trying to find my voice because there are all different kinds of jewelry, as you know. There’s high jewelry, artistic jewelry, fashion jewelry, and I was trying to figure that out. At the same time, you study a lot of things. You have to write essays. You have to do projects with market research. You have to do specific projects with companies during your studies, like a weeklong project, for example. Part of those projects is to understand not only the context you’re thinking of going into in terms of jewelry, but understanding the general context of what is out there. I think it helps you to find your place if you find certain niches or areas that you feel are potentially unexplored.
When I came across pearls, at the beginning, I had absolutely no prior relationship to them the way some cultures do. I didn’t really understand the impact of pearls or their cultural significance. I also had no fear because after all these years, I realized people have a lot of connotations about pearls. Wit the more valuable pearls, you are to treat them with respect—I put that in brackets. You’re not supposed to cut them, and you’re not supposed to do things to them. But because of my sculptural context, I actually saw them as a material, not necessarily as a precious gemstone. That made me free to explore them as a material, but also culturally and design-wise in my subsequent designs. I think that was a very good start for me, to be in this comfort zone of studying where I could be very experimental and put down some solid foundations, which then I was able to grow and expand after my studies as a young professional and as someone who has to make a living out of what they do.
Sharon: When you first looked at the pearls, did you just see, like most people do, strands you put around your neck?
Melanie: Absolutely, yes. The context was really the single pearl strands, the little earrings. There was hardly any pearl jewelry—and by that I include fashion jewelry—on the high streets. Slowly but surely I started seeing fashion jewelry on the catwalks, with brands like Alexander McQueen. Later there was Christopher Kane. Now, for example, there is Simone Rocha, who started putting pearl embellishments on her clothes. All this has the effect that it trickles onto the high streets. Then, the 14, 15, 16, 17-year-olds start wearing plastic pearls, and they slowly understand that it’s not that old-fashioned. Then by the time they’re 30, they can pay a bit more. They want to wear more expensive jewelry because they can afford it. They start to invest in fine jewelry and keep progressing.
Over the years, I realized I have two sorts of clients. One is the older client who has the classic necklace and earrings, probably the white ones or the darker ones depending on where she’s from. She’s looking for something different, because I think now is the time that people look for individual jewelry that expresses their style rather than copying something they see in a magazine.
The second type of client is a younger customer who is not particularly interested in pearls but likes the design. They might also happen to have pearls. I think it gives me a nice challenge to try and create pieces that attract both of those clients, because clearly, they look for different things, different scales. Also, they have different budgets.
Sharon: Besides the one in Japan, do you design for companies? Do people come to you and say, “I want my pearls different”? How does it work?
Melanie: I have been in touch with Tasaki since 2012. By that time, I had already started my brand. I was wholesaling in a few stores, and I decided to focus on pearls. When Tasaki approached me, they wanted to take the sliced idea I was known for and turn it into M/G Tasaki Jewelry. They wanted to slowly build an M/G Tasaki brand with me. Unfortunately, my last name, as you know, is very long, so we decided to do M/G Tasaki rather than Melanie Gerogacopoulos, which would be far too long. So, I design exclusively for them.
Then on the side, I have my own brand where I’m able to be creative completely without any boundaries. This is also where I have expanded the last two years on working with mother of pearl, as you may have seen. So, I have clients who approach me because they’ve seen my work for Tasaki and they want to buy Tasaki pieces, which they can also do through the Tasaki website or in the Tasaki shops. I also have clients who approach me because they want a special piece, a commission, something else I have done for my own brand.
Sharon: When I look at mother of pearl, it looks very fragile or like you have to be very careful with it. Am I wrong with that?
Melanie: You have to be careful, but it’s not as fragile as people think. Actually, mother of pearl has been used quite a lot in watches and dials. It’s been used in fine watches for a long, long time. We’ve seen it more and more in fine jewelry in the last few years, but you have to treat it differently than pearl. This is one aspect of it that I find fascinating. It’s so close to a pearl. It’s the actual oyster that makes the pearl, but you buy it in flat sheets. It’s translucent. It’s also got the same colors as pearls. You can do different things with it. Even though it’s like the first cousin of the pearl, it allows you to do other things that you wouldn’t be able to do with pearls. It’s a similar material. It’s in the same family, yet it’s a completely different thing altogether.
Sharon: Do you buy your pearls one by one, or do you say, “Send me a batch and I’ll pick the ones I like”?
Melanie: It depends on whether I’m designing a collection. In that case, I have suppliers, for example in Hong Kong, for freshwater pearls. I ask for different sizes and strands that they have in different colors. They send me photos and price lists, and then I decide. I always try to buy more than I need because I think there’s no point getting something sent from Hong Kong if it’s just for one pearl. So, I’m trying to buy a bit more to have more stock in the office.
Then I have suppliers in London. If I have a special commission, there’s a system where they can lend you a few pearls or strands on approval, which means you can borrow them for three weeks, I think, to show them to the client. They can keep them for a few days, and then they return them to you when they’ve made a decision. It’s part of the experience when you work with a private client; they get that extra service so you can customize something for them. You give them the luxury to look at the gemstones, in this case the pearls, before they are mounted on a piece of jewelry. They can look at the pearls against their skin color, for example, and decide before having the finished piece of jewelry in their hands.
So, how I source the materials depends on what I intend to do with them. Because I make collections as well as individual pieces, I have suppliers who can give me access to pearls or other gemstones, depending on what I’m going to be using them for.
Sharon: Did Tasaki approach you because—if you think of Japan, you think of pearls. Well, I do at least.
Melanie: I think we all do, yes. I think it was just extremely good timing. They saw my pieces in the High Street Market in London, which is a big shop and a very conceptual store. They found the products interesting because I was cutting them and joining them and making necklaces, and they were selling very well. They thought, “O.K., someone’s doing something interesting. We’ve never seen this before. It’s different than what exists out there, what other competitors are doing.”
I’m sure you’ve heard of Mikimoto as being a Japanese pearl brand, and they were looking to offer a different perspective on pearl jewelry at the time. So, I was lucky that they saw my pieces when they were searching for new ideas. They suggested we do this joint brand. Every time I think about this, I’m so grateful they placed so much trust in me, a young 30-year-old, Greek/French sculpture jewelry graduate with a young brand, a creative person. A year after we met, we launched the first collection. Luckily it went well, but it could have equally been rejected by the very discerning Japanese customers.
Sharon: You’re saying you did the collection a year later. Do they have their own stores, or would they put it in department stores?
Melanie: Yeah, they are a pretty big company, but they’re not very well known in the west. They’re working on that, but they have a lot of stores in Japan, Korea, China and Taiwan. They’re actually quite well-known there, and they were able to place the collection straightaway in their stores and some of the biggest department stores there. Since then, we’ve made on average one or two collections a year. We launch between 20 to 30 different pieces a year. I’ve designed over 30 or 40 collections and we’re still working together, which is a huge compliment for myself to be designing for a Japanese company for so long.
Sharon: If they’re so well-known, is it like if your boyfriend brings you into Tiffany? Your boyfriend brings you to Tasaki?
Melanie: I guess, yeah. I have to say, I really admire that they are Japanese. The stereotype of Japanese people making things extremely well, that’s totally true. Being appreciative of tradition and craftsmanship is totally true, but at the same time, they’re really wanting and looking for something extremely avant garde. You can see that in the fashion and the fashion companies. I find it very brave of a company to go in that direction in pearl jewelry, because pearls are very culturally significant in Japan. They have a completely different relationship to them than we do. To propose sliced pearls as a first collection, I think that was very daring, and it worked.
Sharon: How did you introduce it? Let’s say somebody is 50 and has their pearl necklace they’ve had for 30 years. You were slicing pearls and doing different things. How did you move them to a younger vibe?
Melanie: I think people always look for something they don’t have. There’s no point in making another classic pearl necklace if someone already has it, and you’re not going to persuade a young person to buy one if they are associated with their grandmother, or the one that stayed in the safe for the last 30, 40 years. I am particularly interested in design more than as a jeweler, more than the value of stones. I feel that my strong point is to create designed pieces which are hopefully innovative and stand through time, but represent the time we’re in. They do stand the test of time, and I hope this is what attracts younger people to the jewelry. It’s something they haven’t seen before, something they feel represents the time we’re in now. The way to do that is by introducing good design. This is my hope for the jewelry that I present.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Thereza Pedrosa
Thereza Pedrosa (Rio de Janeiro, 1985) is an art historian, independent curator and gallery owner. She graduated in Conservation of Cultural Heritage at Ca’ Foscari University in Venice with a thesis on art works on paper belonging to the Peggy Guggenheim Collection. She continued her studies and obtained a MA in Management and Conservation of Cultural Heritage at Ca’ Foscari University in Venice with a thesis on the use of niello in contemporary European jewelry. In 2009 she collaborated as assistant registrar at the Peggy Guggenheim Collection, cataloging all the museum’s works on paper. Her work led to the exhibition Revealing Papers: The Hidden Treasures of the Peggy Guggenheim Collection, for which Thereza was the scientific coordinator (Lucca Center of Contemporary Art). Since 2011 she has been working as an curator, creating exhibitions, catalogues and projects for artists and galleries in Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France and the Netherlands. In 2012 she founded the blog Beautiful People Live Art, dedicated to art, design, architecture, photography and art jewelly. In 2019 she established with her business partner Elinor Garnero a contemporary art gallery with a focus on art jewelry, the “Thereza Pedrosa Gallery”. In 2021 she joined as an expert the examining committee of the Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School in Florence. She brings a genuinely international perspective to her curatorial activity also thanks to her residencies in Switzerland, Germany and, since 2015, the Netherlands.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
For Thereza Pedrosa, no form of art is more important than another. At her gallery, contemporary jewelry, sculpture, paintings and other fine art are all given equal standing, and she’s helped numerous art collectors discover jewelry for the first time. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why contemporary jewelry is still unknown to most art collectors and why that should change; how she balances raising children with owning a gallery; and what she discovered at this year’s jewelry fairs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Thereza Pedrosa of Thereza Pedrosa Gallery. Thereza is speaking to us from Asolo, which is right near Florence. It’s supposed to be a very lovely medieval village. She and her partner and friend, Elinor Garnero, founded the gallery in 2019. Welcome back.
I was wondering about this. If you have people who come in and say, “I like this painting,” or “I want a painting,” and then they look at the jewelry, do they walk out with the jewelry, or do they walk out with both? How does that work?
Thereza: Yes, it’s happened a couple of times that someone came inside because they saw the paintings. When you are walking in the street, it’s easier to see the paintings from outside than the jewelry. So, they come to see the paintings and discover we have contemporary jewelry, but they don’t know about it. It happened a couple of times, where they may buy a painting and also a piece of jewelry. It happens more often that they open their minds to the field of contemporary jewelry, and they come back later to buy jewelry. Normally, if they come inside the first time just thinking about paintings, they are not ready yet to move to contemporary jewelry, but they come back. They fall in love with it. They come back to discover more, and then they can start buying contemporary jewelry.
Sharon: Would you call yourself a collector, somebody who collects?
Thereza: Yes. I don’t know how many pieces I have in my own collection, but I sure love to collect myself. I cannot resist. I’m an art lover, and I love to collect paintings, sculptures, books and contemporary jewelry, absolutely.
Sharon: Are they different from each other, the art people who come in and just want a painting versus a jewelry person who comes in and looks at the art? Are they different kinds of personalities or people?
Thereza: I don’t think they are different kinds of personalities. Normally, they are people that, like me, love art and design in all forms, especially people who love paintings and discover contemporary jewelry. What happens more often is that they just didn’t know the field before. They didn’t know contemporary existed. What happens often with these collectors is that they come inside, and they are like, “Oh, I love art. I love sculptures. I collect them. I never knew about contemporary jewelry. I never thought art you can wear existed.” They are excited to discover it.
This is how I was. I always loved art and paintings and sculptures, and I grew up in an artist family. I grew up with my walls surrounded by art all my life. For me, when I got involved in contemporary jewelry, I was like, “Wow!” I love art. I love to have art pieces in my house, but contemporary jewelry is a piece of art I can wear when I go out of the house. It’s amazing.
Sharon: Do you consider it that? Do you consider contemporary jewelry art you can wear?
Thereza: I do.
Sharon: You do?
Thereza: Yeah, I do. For me, yes. I also consider them art pieces. There are many jewelry artists, but they make sculptures. If you see this object, you can imagine it big and it would still be amazing. They just decided to make them small and wearable, but they are still art pieces. For example, in my house, I like to keep some pieces of contemporary jewelry around the living room on shelves we have around the house, just off the coffee table because I have two small kids, but in places at least a little higher. I keep one piece here and one piece there because they look like small sculptures. They are interesting to see even when you are not wearing them.
Sharon: That’s interesting. People have suggested to me that I frame some jewelry when I’m not wearing it, but I’ve never thought about it. The first time somebody said it to me, I thought, “Well, that’s really stupid.” I didn’t understand what they were talking about.
Thereza: Sometimes people come to my house and say, “Oh, my god, you keep this piece here. You should close it in a safe or something,” and I’m like, “This is an artwork. It was made to be seen and to be enjoyed. It was not made to be hidden away. If I need to have something in a safe, if I never look at it or see it or enjoy it, then I cannot own it. What is the purpose for it?” The jewelry in my collection is the same thing. I like to enjoy the pieces, even when I’m not wearing them. I cannot wear 20 pieces at the same time, so I like to see them around me. They make me happy.
Sharon: You’ve been in a lot of different countries. You’ve been in the Netherlands. Where else? I know you’ve been in a lot of countries, selling and creating.
Thereza: I was born in Brazil, in Rio de Janeiro. I grew up in Italy. I lived for a couple of years in Switzerland and a couple of years in Germany. Actually now, I live in the Netherlands. It’s been almost eight years that I’ve lived in the Netherlands. My art gallery is in Italy, but I actually live in the Netherlands.
Sharon: Oh, wow! Do you find that the different cultures and places you’ve lived or studied influences what you do?
Thereza: I think yes, for sure, even if I don’t think about it on purpose. For sure I think of it in a more international way. I don’t really feel myself as Italian or Brazilian, and I have big difficulties when someone asks me, “Where are you from?” I’m like, “What are you asking me? Are you asking me where I was born? Are you asking me where I grew up? Are you asking me where I was living before I moved to this country?” It’s always hard for me, but I like to take the positive sides of everywhere I was living and growing up.
What I like most is to see my kids growing up internationally. My kids are six and four, and they speak four languages and have friends from all around the world. They have friends from Tokai, from China, from Germany, from France, from the U.K., the U.S., Canada, anywhere. We go out on Sunday to have lunch together with some friends. They come to our place or we go to their place, and my kids can try food from India or Tokai, or different festivities, a different region, a different tradition. I think that’s the best way for them to learn that we need to respect everyone and hope they will respect us. There is no color of skin or religion or culture that is more important than the other ones. We are all different and we are all the same, but sometimes it is difficult to teach that. If they can live it, I think it’s the best way to grow up with this concept.
Sharon: Do you expose them to a lot of art, more than usual? Do you take them to art galleries? I don’t know what there is in Italy. How do they learn about art?
Thereza: Some of my friends think we are little bit crazy. When we were expecting my first son, they told us, “Oh, you should put away everything that can break.” Now I’m sitting in my kitchen in Iceland, and I can see here I have a glass sculpture that is full of small, fragile pieces. When friends come over, they are like, “How can you keep that thing there with two small kids around?” I think if you teach them to respect the artworks, they can grow up with them around. I grew up with them around. My parents always had paintings and sculptures around the house. They never put them away because we were children, and I tried to do the same with my kids.
I would like them to enjoy that we have these pieces at home. With a marble sculpture or a bronze sculpture, they can touch it and feel the difference between the materials. I love it when they talk about these pieces and they go around the house and say, “This is my favorite painting,” or “This is my favorite sculpture,” or “I like this one because it’s cold,” or “I like this one because I like the shape of it.” I love abstract art, so the paintings we have at home are all abstract, but my kids go around and say, “Oh, I see an ice cream in this painting. I never saw that ice cream before.” Then I start seeing things they see. Obviously, we like to go with them to museums. I go to art fairs sometimes and they can come with me. It’s a pleasure to bring them around to contemporary jewelry fairs as well.
Sharon: You went to Schmuck this year. Do you go to Schumck every year?
Thereza: This year was the first year we were participating as a gallery because the gallery’s only three years old. We opened it in 2019. Then Corona came, and Schmuck was not there for a couple of years. Before that, I went to visit three times, I think. I visited the last couple of years before Corona came because I was busy with my babies. They were really small, but I went. In 2014, 2015 and 2016, I went. I took a break with my babies for a couple of years, then I opened up my gallery, and this was the first year of participating as a gallery.
Sharon: Did you find new artists there or new work by artists you have? What did you find? What was interesting to you?
Thereza: Everything was different for me because that was the first year I was not free to go around so much as the other three years. I needed to be in our exhibition during the day all the time, so I didn’t have much time to go visit other exhibitions. But it was wonderful to meet many artists of the art gallery that we don’t get to meet often. If we organize a solo exhibition at the gallery, normally the artist comes for the solo exhibition, but otherwise we don’t get to see the artists from other countries so often. I didn’t have time to count how many artists of the gallery we met last week, but I think almost 20 of them were there. It was very nice to meet everyone in person.
I met artists of the gallery I had already met other times before and we are friends, but I also met some artists of the gallery that we represent that I’d never met in person before. Finally, we got the opportunity to meet in person. That was also really nice. We got new pieces to bring to the gallery from some of them. It’s always a good excuse to meet in person to receive some pieces for the gallery. I also met some artists that I invited to be artists of the gallery. I’m really happy to have had all these exchanges.
Sharon: The people that you asked to be artists, they’re people that you don’t have now, but you saw they had work you were interested in.
Therbeza: Yes. I invited some artists I already knew I wanted for the gallery, but I just didn’t have time to invite them yet. Then I met them in person. In person is always better to talk and invite them to work with the gallery. It’s a pleasure. It’s better than just writing an email.
Sharon: Was that a chance to see work you usually don’t see, besides meeting artists? Was it work you don’t see?
Thereza: Yeah, every time you visit Schmuck, you have the opportunity to discover an artist you didn’t know before. You study and you try to keep in touch with everything, but there are always some artists you don’t know or have yet to discover. It’s always wonderful to go there because in one week, you see so many different things, displays, artists’ pieces. It’s really, really interesting.
Sharon: I’ve been wanting to ask you about this. There was a long and very interesting interview with you that Art Jewelry Forum did, and you used the word “authorial jewelry.”
Thereza: Well, with authorial jewelry, I don’t know if it’s a mistake in the translation from Italian. It really means alto jewelry. I think it’s also used in English sometimes, but in Italian we use it to divide art jewelry from design jewelry. Alto jewelry is more about artists that also made jewelry, instead of contemporary jewelry artists that work only in the field of jewelry.
Sharon: What holds your attention about art jewelry as opposed to art? What keeps you going with art jewelry? What do you like, and why do you stay attracted to it?
Thereza: There are a lot of things I like. One of them is how many different media contemporary jewelry artists can use to make jewelry. You often find some artist who uses materials you never thought before could be used to make jewelry, and sometimes you see something that looks like one material, and then you go to see what it is and it’s a different one. It always surprises me in a good way when I’m surprised with the aesthetics of a piece, the quality of the piece, but also the materials that are unexpected and different from what I was thinking or expecting
Sharon: Is that what you look at? Besides the fact that it has surprised you, do you look at the quality and the craftsmanship and the way it’s done?
Thereza: Absolutely. That’s really important. It’s important to look. The aesthetic is important in a piece because that’s what you see, but then there’s the quality of it, the durability of it. You don’t want it to be broken in one week. It needs to be well-made, it needs to be wearable and it needs to be of good quality. Especially for a young artist, sometimes they don’t finish a piece, or they just want to have many pieces done and they don’t finish them properly. No, it’s really important to finish them properly for the quality of the piece, but also the wearability. It’s important that you try the piece on until it works, it doesn’t hurt and it doesn’t break. That’s important because it’s an art piece, but it’s also jewelry. It needs to be wearable; otherwise, it's a sculpture. Jewelry needs to be wearable for me.
Sharon: No, that’s really important. You’re right; a lot of young makers don’t understand that it has to be something you can wear. Thereza, thank you so much for being here today and telling us about Schmuck and your gallery. Asolo is—what did you say? A couple of hours, less than a couple of hours from Florence?
Thereza: It could be more. It’s actually one hour from Venice. It’s in the northeast of Italy, 50 minutes from Pauda and one hour from Venice.
Sharon: You’re right in the middle of things, then. Thank you so much for being with us today. We really appreciate it.
Thereza: It was a pleasure. Thank you, Sharon.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Thereza Pedrosa
Thereza Pedrosa (Rio de Janeiro, 1985) is an art historian, independent curator and gallery owner. She graduated in Conservation of Cultural Heritage at Ca’ Foscari University in Venice with a thesis on art works on paper belonging to the Peggy Guggenheim Collection. She continued her studies and obtained a MA in Management and Conservation of Cultural Heritage at Ca’ Foscari University in Venice with a thesis on the use of niello in contemporary European jewelry. In 2009 she collaborated as assistant registrar at the Peggy Guggenheim Collection, cataloging all the museum’s works on paper. Her work led to the exhibition Revealing Papers: The Hidden Treasures of the Peggy Guggenheim Collection, for which Thereza was the scientific coordinator (Lucca Center of Contemporary Art). Since 2011 she has been working as an curator, creating exhibitions, catalogues and projects for artists and galleries in Italy, Switzerland, Germany, France and the Netherlands. In 2012 she founded the blog Beautiful People Live Art, dedicated to art, design, architecture, photography and art jewelly. In 2019 she established with her business partner Elinor Garnero a contemporary art gallery with a focus on art jewelry, the “Thereza Pedrosa Gallery”. In 2021 she joined as an expert the examining committee of the Alchimia Contemporary Jewellery School in Florence. She brings a genuinely international perspective to her curatorial activity also thanks to her residencies in Switzerland, Germany and, since 2015, the Netherlands.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
For Thereza Pedrosa, no form of art is more important than another. At her gallery, contemporary jewelry, sculpture, paintings and other fine art are all given equal standing, and she’s helped numerous art collectors discover jewelry for the first time. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why contemporary jewelry is still unknown to most art collectors and why that should change; how she balances raising children with owning a gallery; and what she discovered at this year’s jewelry fairs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Thereza Pedrosa of Thereza Pedrosa Gallery. Thereza is speaking to us from Asolo, Italy—I don’t know if I said that right—which is near Florence. It’s supposed to be a very lovely medieval village. She and her partner and friend, Elinor Garnero, founded the gallery in 2019, and it features art and art jewelry. Thereza has been in many countries studying, curating and exhibiting. She just took part in Schmuck, which, if you don’t know, is one of the world’s biggest art jewelry exhibits. Everybody in the world is there. We’ll hear all about her jewelry journey today. Thereza, welcome to the program.
Thereza: Thank you for having me, Sharon.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you considered artistic? Are people surprised when you tell them what you do?
Thereza: I think someone who knows me from when I was a child would not be surprised that I work with art and jewelry right now. I grew up in the family as an artist. My father is an artist, and I always went with him to exhibitions and art fairs. I loved to go with him when he was making Murano glasses and blown sculptures. I would go to the studio with him and take photos of him working. So, I think those who saw me growing up will not be really surprised that I love art and work with art.
Sharon: It doesn’t sound surprising at all. I didn’t know you were really exposed to art. Tell us about your jewelry education, then. How did you learn about jewelry?
Thereza: I started out with my father because he’s a plastic artist, mainly a painter and sculptor. Sometimes during the 55 years of his career, he made Murano glasses, sculptures, mosaics, paper, iron, brass; any kind of media. Around 2000, when I was around 15 years old, he made a collection of jewelry. To make this collection of jewelry, he bought a machine for soldering. He did this beautiful collection, and then he moved back to painting and other kinds of sculptures. I asked him, “Well, you have the machine. You know how to do it. Why don’t you teach me how to solder so I can make some jewelry for myself?” He taught me the basics and I made some jewelry for myself. Then some design shops sold my pieces and they wanted to start selling them. This is how I started to get involved with contemporary jewelry.
I grew up less than one hour from Padua, where there is a really important jewelry school, the Selvatico, where Babetto and Pavan and many others are from. Growing up, I saw some exhibitions of Giampaolo Babetto and Annamaria Zanella. I saw their works and I got to love their work. That’s how everything started.
Sharon: So, you didn’t learn classically, right? You didn’t go to school and learn. That’s not the way you learned.
Thereza: No, when I needed to decide what to study in university, I said, “O.K., I want to stay in the field of art,” but I didn’t see myself as an artist. I didn’t think I had it in me to make things except for designing my jewelry. I said, “O.K., what can I study? If I study history of art, then I can go into teaching; otherwise, what do I do with history of art?”
In Paris, in the university environment, there is this interesting course called conservation of cultural heritage. In conservation of cultural heritage, we had exams about the laws of art when you work in a museum or salon. Nationally and internationally for an exhibition, there are a lot of laws involving how long the piece can stay away from the museum and these kinds of things. I studied chemistry of conservation for paintings, drawings, and sculptures, and museography, which is what kind of temperature you need in the rooms and the lighting. So, everything you need for the economics, how to find funding for the exhibition. Everything you needed to be a curator or a registrar in a museum, that was what I studied.
I thought I would love to work in a museum as a registrar because I’m shy. I didn’t see myself as a curator that needed to be the first in line. I said, “A registrar, he’s more in contact with the art pieces, but a little bit in the background.” That was my dream at the beginning, but then I started moving around so much that it was difficult to find a permanent position in a museum. I started organizing exhibitions as a freelance curator for galleries in collaboration with some museums.
Sharon: You did that on your own with a museum? Did you come up with the idea, or did they come up with the idea for the exhibitions you did?
Thereza: The exhibition I did was a coordination with the drawings of the Peggy Guggenheim Collection, a collection in Venice, and I did the coordination with the Lucca Center for Contemporary Art in Tuscany. The idea for the exhibition was mine, and it was based on my bachelor’s thesis. When I was writing my bachelor’s thesis, I decided I wanted to write about the Guggenheim Museum in Venice, but I wanted to write about something new. I told them I wanted to write about the drawings, and I asked if could study the archives. They said, “Yes, I’m sure it would be lovely, but we never made a catalog of the drawings of the museum.”
So, my thesis became the cataloging of all the drawings in the museum. It covered how they arrived in the museum, how they received them as a gift from the artist. She bought them from the artist or from some galleries, so that’s how they arrived in the collection. I also cataloged which exhibitions they participated in, which books they were published in, the state of conservation, everything you needed to know about the drawings of the collection. Then we made the Peggy Guggenheim Collection, which was at the Lucca Center of Contemporary Art and was only about the drawings of the museum.
Sharon: That sounds like a huge thing, the Peggy Guggenheim drawings. How many were there?
Thereza: I think there were around 80. More than 70, around 80. Drawings are sometimes considered less important artworks, but I’ve always loved paper media. Actually, in the collection, there are many works that are not just a preparation for a big painting. They are actually works in themselves. Klee, Kandinsky, many important artists from the collections also have works on paper. It really was a beautiful collection.
Sharon: How did you come to own an art gallery, you and your friend Elinor? How did you start an art jewelry gallery, I should say. What happened?
Thereza: I was organizing exhibitions for other galleries. I opened some exhibition galleries in Germany, in the Netherlands, in France. At the same time, I was still making my own jewelry. Then I got pregnant with my first son, and I decided to take a break from my jewelry to organize exhibitions. When my second child, my daughter, was around six months old, Elinor and I were talking and I was saying, “I would love to open my own gallery one day, but I cannot do it now because my kids are two and six months old.” They were too young, and I wanted to be there for them. I said, “I can do it in the future, but right now, I want to be flexible to stay with my kids. If I open a gallery, I need to be there.”
She told me, “Well, I don’t feel like I can open a gallery alone,” because her background is architectural. She was in architecture and then art management, but she didn’t study history of art as a main course. She was thinking, “O.K., I could be at the gallery, but I don’t feel like I can organize the exhibitions myself and do everything by myself.” So, we complement each other very well because she’s the one to actually stay at the gallery all the time, and I am the one that organizes the exhibitions and makes the selection of the artists for the gallery and the online shop, the online website. She’s the one who stays at the gallery and deals with the collectors.
Sharon: How did you come to art jewelry? It doesn’t sound like that was your initial interest. Did your father do art jewelry when he showed you jewelry? Would you call it art jewelry?
Thereza: Yes, he was an artist that made jewelry during some periods of his life, like many other artists like Picasso and Talbert. It was not their main thing, but between other things, they also made some jewelry. Also, in 2012, I opened a blog. The name was Beautiful People Love Art.
Sharon: Beautiful People Love Art.
Thereza: Yes, Beautiful People Love Art. I went on with this blog for seven, eight years. The main thing of the blog was to show how all forms of art are important and interconnected. All sides are the same thing. I don’t see drawings as less important than paintings, or sculptures as more important than jewelry. I think they are all important, just different media. When I opened my own gallery, I decided we would be an art gallery. We’ll have paintings and sculptures, but I was already showing a lot of contemporary jewelry with my blog.
I fell in love with contemporary jewelry while I was visiting Schmuck and Joya Barcelona and getting to know the artists. Actually, when I was finishing my master’s degree, I wrote a thesis about contemporary jewelry and the use of niello in contemporary jewelry. I got in contact with many artists, Giampaolo Babetto, Annamaria Zanella, Phillipe Cizetta. I got to know the field better and I really fell in love with it.
When I decided to open my open my own gallery, I wanted contemporary jewelry to be part of it. I truly believe the contemporary jewelry field should be more open. Not a niche, but more open to art lovers in general. I think to be an art gallery, it helps to make contemporary jewelry be known to people that love art. Really often, they don’t even know that contemporary jewelry exists. So, with the gallery we try to get the field of contemporary jewelry to be known outside of the field and the collectors of the field, to get it known to art collectors, design collectors, people that love art in general.
Sharon: Do you find a lot of resistance where people say, “I like the art, but the jewelry is just jewelry”? What do you find?
Thereza: We find everything. My experience at Schmuck was really interesting in this way, because we organized a contemporary jewelry exhibition with 15 artists we represent at the gallery. We were guests of Petenbone Auction House. They were having an auction week with design and glass, so a lot of people that were coming during the week weren’t there for the contemporary jewelry exhibition. They would just come inside the auction house and look at the jewelry and go out. There were people coming to see the purview of the auction house and the design and glass. They were just there to see the pieces of the auction and go out without looking at the jewelry.
But there were also a lot of people that came inside to see the jewelry, and they looked at me and were like, “Oh my God, these Murano glass pieces are amazing,” or “Look at this piece from the 70s or this lamp from the 60s. There are so many beautiful pieces here.” There were some people that came to see the purview of the design auction and discovered our exhibition, and they were like, “Oh wow, we’ve never seen contemporary jewelry before. We didn’t know it existed,” but they asked a lot of questions and were interested in understanding the different artists. There are some people that collect one kind of thing, and they want only that. Then there are people that love art in general and get excited about everything. It was very nice last week to see people going around and discovering contemporary jewelry or glass and design. It was a good mix.
Sharon: How do you choose your artists? When you have an exhibit, how do you decide which ones to have?
Thereza: For example, last week, we had an exhibition for Schmuck. We represent around 45 artists at the gallery, but we had limited space to show pieces. I wanted to show them as well as I could. I also wanted some space so you could enjoy each piece and show a little bit more of each artist, so even if you didn’t know that piece, you could have an idea of his work. I decided to invite 15 artists and not bring all the artists we have at the gallery to permit people to enjoy the ones with small pieces and finalize the decision about, “O.K., I want to show a little bit of what we have at the gallery.”
It was the first time for us at Schmuck, so I invited some artists that are really well-established, who showed that we have masters of the field. I also wanted to show that we have young artists with careers and artists that work with traditional materials, and others that work with different materials like paper or food or plastic, resin and anything else. I really liked the mix. I don’t like to show all pieces from the same artist here and five pieces of the other artist there. I like to mix them, and I like to have a dialogue between the pieces. I wanted the artists of the exhibition to have harmony when you saw it together. That was the important thing I wanted to get across with the exhibition, and I hope people enjoy it.
Sharon: It sounds like they would enjoy it and be exposed to things they wouldn’t see a lot. Tell us a little more about who buys from your gallery.
Thereza: All kinds of people. We have contemporary jewelry collectors that love contemporary jewelry, and they come back all the time nationally and internationally. We work in an area where there were many important contemporary jewelry galleries in the past. In the last 10 years, they all closed. They closed more than 10 years ago, because the gallerists retired one after the other. For example, in Padua, there aren’t any galleries specializing in contemporary jewelry anymore. We have a lot of collectors that live there who don’t have a gallery close by anymore to find contemporary jewelry, so now they come to us.
We also have art collectors that love paintings and sculptures. They come inside to see the paintings, but then they discover contemporary jewelry. They get involved with contemporary jewelry and start buying contemporary jewelry also. That’s very nice. We like it when that happens.
Sharon: When you say people are collectors of contemporary jewelry and art, are they people who might say to you, “I want a Babetto piece. Call me any time you get one,” or do they just come in and look around?
Thereza: Both. Sometimes there is someone who is really looking for a Babetto piece, and they come to us because they are looking for a specific piece or a specific artist. We also have collectors that just come inside because they want to have a look, or they come every two or three months to see what is new at the gallery.
With the internet, now we are working a lot online also. It happens often that whoever comes to the gallery was already checking our website, especially our Instagram page. So, when they come to the gallery—because we publish almost every day—often they come to the gallery and already know what they want to see in real life. They come and say, “Oh, I saw this artist and that artist on your Instagram page or on your website. I want to see this and that piece in real life and decide between them.”
There are people that come inside without knowing what they are looking for. There are people that come to have a look at specific pieces, and there are people that really collect. They decide before, “I want a piece of this artist,” and they come to see what we have of this specific artist.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Melinda Lewis
Jewelry historian Melinda Lewis spent 11 years researching the history of a single American jewelry manufacturer —The Napier Co. Determined to bring the first book about this company to the public, she interviewed over fifty former employees from around the country spanning multiple generations. Those interviewed included the great-grandson of William Rettenmeyer, the designer who started in 1891; to designers who worked for Napier from 1941 to the close of the plant; as well as executive management, including the former CEO, Ron Meoni; and traveling salesmen, whose careers were no less than 30-plus years with the company.
After publishing her book, Lewis and her husband have spent the last year curating an extraordinary collection of vintage jewelry from around the country for her customers with The Jewelry Stylist and Vintage Jewelry Collect.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/thenapierbook/
THE NAPIER BOOK: https://napierbook.com
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/thejewelrystylist2
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thejewelrystylist/
THE JEWELRY STYLIST: https://thejewelrystylist.com
VINTAGE JEWELRY COLLECT: https://vintagejewelrycollect.com
CJCI : http://cjci.co This forwards to https://www.costumejewelrycollectors.com/
Transcript:
Some collectors don’t give costume jewelry a fair shake, but for jewelry historian Melinda Lewis, vintage costume jewelry has only brought her happiness. She spent over a decade researching The Napier Company, an influential costume jewelry manufacturer, and created a community of fellow costume lovers along the way. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the process of researching and writing her book, “The Napier Co.: Defining 20th Century American Costume Jewelry”; what costume jewelry is trending and where the hot markets are; and why the joy of jewelry often lies in connecting with others. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, we are talking with Melinda Lewis, the author of the definitive work on Napier Company jewelry, “The Napier Co.: Defining 20th Century American Costume Jewelry.” She’s also one of the founders of Costume Jewelry Collectors International. If you look at their website, CJCI.co, you’ll be able to find all you want to know about costume jewelry. Welcome back.
Why did they start making costume jewelry? What I’m always surprised by is that everything was just as nice about it, but it wasn’t a real ruby. That’s all. It was a synthetic one. [Repeat from Part one]
Melinda: I think the reason why it became popular was that it allowed more people to adorn themselves. If you think about it, you had a real piece that might cost $2,000, but you could offer a lovely, finely crafted piece of jewelry for $20. It allowed the average person to feel as beautiful as the socialite that was wearing the $10,000 piece. It made things more democratic. It opened up the market to people that perhaps would not have been wearing that expensive piece of jewelry. I think that’s why it made it more accessible to the masses.
Sharon: Would you say it was manufactured? Everything about it was the same except that it wasn’t “real”?
Melinda: A lot of the manufacturing companies used the same manufacturing techniques as fine jewelry. Many of the people, particularly in the 1920s, had come over from Europe and had worked for the jewelry houses of Paris, so their techniques, their skill levels, were unsurpassed. They were jewelry makers. That’s why some of the early pieces look just like fine jewelry, because there really wasn’t a difference in the manufacturing with the stones, the setting and the design aspects. We were really fortunate, if you think of it, to have all of these fine jewelry designers and manufacturers immigrate to the U.S. and give us, as a society, the opportunity to buy jewelry that wasn’t $10,000.
Sharon: Is it still true? Would you say the quality is still as good?
Melinda: I think it’s line specific, but certainly jewelry today is probably not made to the same quality standards as costume jewelry was during the beginning of the 20th century. There certainly are going to be pieces, but most of the jewelry we see in department stores is not made in the same way it was made a hundred years ago. I can’t really explain it. Often, it falls apart. It doesn’t have the same plating. We don’t use the same quality stones. I don’t think the designers have a full understanding of the design aspects or design aesthetics they had a hundred years ago. It’s hard for me to say it has the same quality that it did.
Sharon: Are you a flea market junkie or a swap meet junkie?
Melinda: Yes, my treat to myself is to do that on occasion, to go to an antique fair. But Covid certainly changed a lot of things in the last three years. The majority of my acquiring comes from online, but there’s certainly something about spying that piece in a pile of jewelry. Someone has no idea what they have, and that’s when your years of study pay off. You’re able to recognize something and think, “Oh, that has value.”
Sharon: Do you still have a store online?
Melinda: I have three online stores. My husband and I have three. One is for the Napier book, and then two others are online venues for vintage jewelry. One sells Napier jewelry exclusively, and the other two sell regular costume jewelry.
Sharon: Except for this exposure to costume jewelry, I don’t know that much about it. I hadn’t heard about your website. I thought I knew everything about all kinds of jewelry. Tell us about your websites with jewelry.
Melinda: One is called TheJewelryStylist.com. That has higher-end costume jewelry. Vintage Jewelry Collect is my other website. That one has mid- to upper-level costume jewelry and probably a deeper array of things, from wood jewelry and Bakelite and rhinestone jewelry. My objective with The Jewelry Stylist is to have the higher-end collectables on that side. Then TheNapierBook.com is where I sell my book as well as vintage Napier jewelry.
Sharon: Do you have people—stylists I guess—who come to you because they’re doing a movie or a TV show and they need something?
Melinda: I used to do that. In the early 2000s, I did a lot of work with Edward Enninful’s team and had a lot of jewelry featured in Italian Vogue. I had my jewelry used for MAC cosmetics. I’m going blank on the other ads, but yes, I did do that in the early 2000s. However, it’s a lot of work. It’s not a paid gig; you do it for exposure. I stopped doing that probably around 2008 or 2009. It was a lot of fun and certainly exciting to see your pieces on the cover of Vogue Italia. My focus at that point was on the book, so doing that type of print work interfered with me moving forward with completing my book. So, I put it to the side.
Sharon: Did you stop everything and focus on the book? What did you do?
Melinda: I was trying to do both. We founded CJCI in 2009, so I had a lot going on. Incidentally, it’s CJCI.co, not com.
Sharon: Thank you. It stands for—go ahead.
Melinda: Costume Jewelry Collectors International. We were formed to promote the study, enjoyment and promotion of costume jewelry. We started our club when we learned about the retirement of Lucille Tempestas’ jewelry club. She had a jewelry club named the VFCJ. I knew there was going to be a void for people, because we really enjoyed getting together with jewelry clubs. I talked it over with my husband and decided I was going to ask my cofounder, Pamela Siegel, if she would join me on this journey of starting a new jewelry club. She said yes, and within three days, we had a website up; we had created groups on Facebook. Within three months, we had published our first magazine. In 2011, we had our first jewelry convention.
Sharon: You’ve had one every two or three years, like a convention or conference.
Melinda: We had one for seven years straight.
Sharon: Wow! It’s a lot of work.
Melinda: It’s a lot of work. Right now, our focus is on the website. We acquired a database from another website called Research In Costume Jewelry, which was a website created by Dotty Springfield. That’s why people come to our website, to get information about jewelry marks. That was a very big project. We had to integrate all of the data from one website and incorporate it into ours. It was a costly and timely project, but we were able to do it. We get about 13,000 unique visitors a month to our website to look up jewelry marks.
Sharon: The marks specifically?
Melinda: Yeah.
Sharon: I did hear that you might have a cruise.
Melinda: One thing we’re considering is perhaps doing a jewelry cruise next year. Pam and I will be talking about that this year to see if it’s feasible. That might be in the works for 2024, but nothing’s set in stone yet; we’re just looking at our options.
Sharon: Nothing for 2023 this year.
Melinda: No. It was a tough decision. We had to make a financial assessment of whether or not it was viable for us, and still with Covid and the uncertainties and the contract obligations you have as an event promoter—if you don’t fill it, you still have to pay the bill—we decided it was in our best interest to not have a convention this year. It was very sad choice for us, but one we needed to make.
Sharon: How did you and the businesses stay afloat during Covid? How did you manage?
Melinda: CJCI is donation based, so we were greatly affected by it and by not having conventions, which is our main source of income to try to cover the expenses of hosting a website and such. That income wasn’t there. My personal businesses actually had a little bit of an uptick during Covid. That was a nice surprise, and certainly one I wasn’t expecting.
Sharon: I’ve heard that a lot of jewelry websites or people who sold jewelry did find an uptick during that time because people were at home. What else did people have to do?
Melinda: Right, and a new buying community has opened up, like I mentioned with the Chinese market and Russian market. It’s really gratifying to see other communities taking an interest in our American jewelry heritage.
Sharon: What are they looking for? Not that it’s American, but that it’s high-end or lower?
Melinda: High-end, and they’re actually taking an interest in the history, which is fascinating and wonderful. I’m not sure that Americans in the same age group have the same interest in our history.
Sharon: I’m thinking about some of the smaller antique fairs I’ve been to. I don’t collect costume jewelry specifically, but I’ve been surprised at some of the prices for high-end costume jewelry.
Melinda: It’s been phenomenal. In the last two years, it has really peaked—perhaps not peaked; it has spiked.
Sharon: I’m sure it’s good for you, yes. Sometimes I think, “Why didn’t I start with costume jewelry?” You can buy a lot more, but it’s really gotten expensive.
Melinda: Yes, it has. My advice to people is buy what you love and get the best you can afford. Grow your collection that way, but don’t necessarily buy it for investment purposes. The market can be fickle, and it’s generally a long game when you buy a piece. You have to have a pulse on the market. You have to know just the right time to offer it. Most people aren’t following the market that closely.
Sharon: But that’s something you do, follow the market for costume jewelry?
Melinda: Oh yes, every day.
Sharon: Do people come to you and ask you to appraise things?
Melinda: They do, but I don’t offer that service. For one, I believe in California you have to be licensed to appraise. I give them guidance on what they can do. It’s the same things I would do, like looking at closed auctions or websites that provide finished auction prices I do get that a lot, but I decline answering that question.
Sharon: I think you are correct in that you have to be licensed. Why should somebody like me, who clearly doesn’t know that much about costume jewelry, why should I be interested? Why would I start turning my eye towards that as opposed to other antiques? Is it a progression? Do they go from one thing to another and end up with something else somewhere along the line?
Melinda: For me, with collecting costume jewelry, there is not only a recognition of the art form, but it’s the community that is fostered during the research and the study. It’s having that connection with other people who are interested in our history and the meaning behind that history. That is my biggest source of joy for collecting it. So, it is about the piece of jewelry, but it’s not. It’s also about the community that comes with the study of costume jewelry.
It’s a wonderful time right now to become connected with others for research and collaboration and what I like to call jewelry genealogy. It really is, and that’s exciting. When we learn a new detail about a piece of jewelry, there’s nothing more rewarding. You get those endorphin hits. I think that’s the thing I like about it. You get a surge of energy, a surge of joy. “Oh my gosh, I just discovered something new. I didn’t know what that meant. Wow!” You collaborate with others and pull together your knowledge base. That’s what makes it fun.
There are so many groups right now, like on Facebook, that people can join to aid them in their jewelry journey. These groups just weren’t available a decade ago. It has expanded. In the last two or three years, the amount of jewelry groups for different aspects of studying it—and a lot of them specialize in one area. There are Schreiner groups. There’s my page, and I have a group per se. There’s the Alice Caviness group and the Hattie Carnegie group. People hone on in their interest and share their knowledge. That’s the essence of what collecting is all about.
Sharon: Do you find yourself ever wanting to go astray? Do you ever see a piece of Hattie Carnegie, let’s say, that you think is wonderful and buy it?
Melinda: Of course. I have a folder on my computer called “Want to Buys” for areas I want to learn more about. They are my bucket list pieces, and they’re not Napier; they’re other pieces. I’m like, “Oh, my gosh, I really want that piece. That is so polar opposite. I had no idea they made a line like that.” I think that’s true for most collectors. The great thing about being in a group with other jewelry collectors is that you expose yourself to things beyond what you’re accustomed to seeing. It makes it wonderful.
Sharon: Do you wear a piece of costume jewelry every day or every time you go out, no matter what you’re wearing?
Melinda: No, unfortunately where I live, I don’t think it would be appropriate to wear a piece of jewelry. When we go out to dinner, I’ll put on something, but I don’t wear it every day. I play with it every day. I love handling it or picking up a piece or refreshing my memory about a piece. That I do, but I don’t wear it every day.
Sharon: I find myself wondering—there are communities, but if you have more of a community because you wrote the book and developed this community, do you have more than other people? How do I have community if I didn’t write this book?
Melinda: The book certainly helped form my community. My book actually wouldn’t have been published without my community. That’s very true. When I say my community, in that sense, I mean my costume jewelry collecting community. It wasn’t a Napier community. My community supported me such that we were able to raise the funds to do the printing. The Napier book would not have happened without the jewelry community supporting me. There are groups on Facebook that have been formed that specialize in specific designers. They don’t necessarily have a book behind them or an author behind that group, so I’m not sure.
Sharon: What’s your next book on? Are you continuing this one? Is it part two, or are you starting fresh?
Melinda: I’m not sure if there’s another book in me. It takes a lot of work. There are certainly revisions I would do. I hope once we sell out of the hard copy, if I do an e-book, it will have revisions and updates. I’ve learned so much since we originally published. I’m on the internet every day looking at archives, looking at newspaper ads and clippings and identifying more specific years that things were made. That’s a habit for me, to try to collect articles to further my understanding of Napier.
Sharon: It does sound like it takes a lot of work, a lot of time. What would you revise first, prices or the pictures? Would you say, “This was done elsewhere”?
Melinda: The latter, yes. If I had dated something, say, at the late 50s, but I found the ad that said, “No, it was 1962,” I would move it; I would put it in its proper age spot. Even though I was off by five years, I was trying to be as specific as I could. I would update some of the years for things and perhaps add more pieces or more dating I’ve since discovered.
Sharon: I don’t know if there’s any room for more pieces. You have so many. I was looking and I thought, “How did you do this?” The photos are really beautiful. They’re clear and very detailed. It’s very nice. Do people contact you because of the book itself?
Melinda: Yes, I do get that. When I was writing the book, I had a spreadsheet so I could keep track of everything. Everything was kept on spreadsheets, down to making comma changes and other things. I had a very extensive database so I could track where everything was to make sure it was in its proper place when I was laying out the book.
Sharon: Did your family help you? Or did they say, “Don’t bother me,” or “I’m tired of hearing about it,” even though they were involved from a monetary standpoint?
Melinda: My mother helped with some of the editing. I had a number of friends helping me with the editing. My husband found the printer. We used the same printer as Condé Nast and Assouline Books. My husband went out and got the best printer we could get. In terms of the template for the book layout, he contracted with a couple of people that wrote for Consumer Reports, and they helped devise the template. From there, I worked with the template they provided to fill out the book. We had the foundation designed for us. My husband probably was my biggest support, following me all around the country. I couldn’t travel without him. He was the one carrying all the equipment and what not.
Sharon: So, you would go to the collections? You would go wherever—
Melinda: Yeah, and I’d stay with the employees. They were most generous. I stayed with Henry for a week and talked Napier. We stayed with a gentleman named Bill Hurlbutt and his wife, Alice. We stayed with them for a week. We met with Napier employees on our honeymoon. I decided to go to Meriden and have a lunch date with Napier employees instead of taking a honeymoon. It was a lot of fun.
Sharon: I hope your husband had some inkling at the time when that happened. Thank you so much for being with us today. We’ll look for part two. I’m sure all of us will be looking at jewelry and turning it over and trying to find the marks you’ve mentioned that we didn’t know might be there. Thank you so much, Melinda.
Melinda: Thank you for having me, Sharon.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Melinda Lewis
Jewelry historian Melinda Lewis spent 11 years researching the history of a single American jewelry manufacturer —The Napier Co. Determined to bring the first book about this company to the public, she interviewed over fifty former employees from around the country spanning multiple generations. Those interviewed included the great-grandson of William Rettenmeyer, the designer who started in 1891; to designers who worked for Napier from 1941 to the close of the plant; as well as executive management, including the former CEO, Ron Meoni; and traveling salesmen, whose careers were no less than 30-plus years with the company.
After publishing her book, Lewis and her husband have spent the last year curating an extraordinary collection of vintage jewelry from around the country for her customers with The Jewelry Stylist and Vintage Jewelry Collect.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/thenapierbook/
THE NAPIER BOOK: https://napierbook.com
FACEBOOK: https://www.facebook.com/thejewelrystylist2
INSTAGRAM: https://www.instagram.com/thejewelrystylist/
THE JEWELRY STYLIST: https://thejewelrystylist.com
VINTAGE JEWELRY COLLECT: https://vintagejewelrycollect.com
CJCI : http://cjci.co This forwards to https://www.costumejewelrycollectors.com/
Transcript:
Some collectors don’t give costume jewelry a fair shake, but for jewelry historian Melinda Lewis, vintage costume jewelry has only brought her happiness. She spent over a decade researching The Napier Company, an influential costume jewelry manufacturer, and created a community of fellow costume lovers along the way. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the process of researching and writing her book, “The Napier Co.: Defining 20th Century American Costume Jewelry”; what costume jewelry is trending and where the hot markets are; and why the joy of jewelry often lies in connecting with others. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, we are talking with Melinda Lewis, the author of the definitive work on Napier Company jewelry, “The Napier Co.: Defining 20th Century American Costume Jewelry.” She’s also one of the founders of Costume Jewelry Collectors International. If you look at their website, CJCI.co, you’ll be able to find all you want to know about costume jewelry. Melinda is passionate about costume jewelry, which we might consider a pejorative term, but once you take a look at this book and the range of jewelry that was produced and the manufacturing techniques that were pioneered, you’ll never think about costume jewelry in quite the same way. We’ll hear about her jewelry journey today. Melinda, welcome to the program.
Melinda: Thank you for having me, Sharon. It’s my pleasure.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. How did you get into this?
Melinda: I was interested in costume jewelry as a teen by playing with and holding my grandmother’s costume jewelry, but it wasn’t until my late 30s, early 40s, that I really became interested. I went to an estate sale and bought a couple of sets, one being Hobé. I went home to begin my research and became completely fascinated by it. I stumbled upon an email list called Jewelcollect, which was owned by Liz Bryman, and from there, I went to my first jewelry conference held by Christine Romero at the Center for Jewelry Studies. I became completely intrigued with costume jewelry.
Sharon: Did you know you were buying a Hobé, or did you just like the way it looked?
Melinda: I loved the way it looked. It was marked, but I didn’t know what Hobé meant. It meant nothing to me because I had never really owned a piece of jewelry before. It opened up a whole new world for me.
Sharon: Had you liked any other kind of jewelry? Had you been a collector before this?
Melinda: No, not at all. I was working in hospital pharmacies, so it was a complete change. I appreciated fashion because my grandmother was a hat designer during the 20s, and I think a little bit of that rubbed off on me. I wanted to be a fashion merchandiser before I got into hospital pharmacy, but I never had any interest or knowledge about costume jewelry prior to going to that estate sale.
Sharon: Wow! Did you start collecting once you became more knowledgeable?
Melinda: I did start collecting and going to more estate sales. I was able to purchase the inventory from a business that was going out of business. My first big purchase literally filled my Volvo station wagon, front to back, with costume jewelry. From there, I opened up a shop. I had a physical shop for a year and went online after that.
Sharon: Was this jewelry that filled up your Volvo all different kinds?
Melinda: Yes, it was all different kinds. It was great fun.
Sharon: Why did you think it was necessary to write a book? Melinda has corrected my pronunciation. How do you say it?
Melinda: Napier.
Sharon: Napier, O.K. Do you think most people know that?
Melinda: Probably 50/50. I always tend to correct people. I think when people say it “Napié,” it maybe has more prestige to it, but Mr. Napier was Scottish, and in the Scottish pronunciation it’s Napier.
Sharon: Did you ever meet him?
Melinda: No, he died in 1960. But through my studies and after interviewing 53 former Napier employees, I was very clear about his preferences. He was a very strict man.
Sharon: I’ve been saying it wrong. I remember the ads I used to see in Seventeen Magazine a long time ago. I always read it as “Napié,” but I never had a reason to say it out loud.
How did you decide to write this book? I have to say to anybody who hasn’t seen the book, this is the definitive work. It’s beautiful and it’s big.
Melinda: It is big. In 2002, I had the opportunity to purchase part of the Napier archive. When it arrived at my home, I had all this jewelry and knew nothing about it. So, I went on the internet and saw the same paragraph being repeated over and over on all of the websites. I knew there was a void that needed to be filled, so I began my journey of doing research on the company.
I started with one name. Mr. Ron Meoni was the President of Napier before it was sold. I wrote a letter to him explaining that I wanted to write a book on Napier and asked if he would give any guidance or assistance. From there, he gave me six names. I reached out to all of those folks, including my coauthor, Henry Swen, who has since passed away. Henry worked for the company for 35 years. During my research, Henry and I literally corresponded every day for eight years back and forth. He really gave me the inside knowledge of how the industry worked and the history about Napier. It was a phenomenal experience. I’m forever grateful to him for his assistance.
Sharon: So, you’re ready to write your next book on a different company.
Melinda: I don’t know. I still research Napier all the time. There’s still more information, but I put them up on our Facebook page.
Sharon: There are so many illustrations and drawings. It’s hard to believe there are more.
Melinda: Oh, there are a lot more. I just put a fraction of it in. Finally, I had to say stop, because I could have kept going when the book was already way larger than what I had anticipated.
Sharon: How long did it take you to write this?
Melinda: It was 11 years of writing and research, 12 years altogether with the layout. So, the project was 12 years long, but 11 years of that I spent researching and writing.
Sharon: When you say it’s different than what you thought it would be starting out, did you think it would be a paperback or a pamphlet? What did you think?
Melinda: Normally books in this genre are about 288 pages, so that was our goal. But what I realized as I was writing was that there was so much I wanted to include that hadn’t been included in other costume jewelry books: the marketing, the manufacturing, the designers, so many aspects that were different than just having a picture book. The more we got into that, the bigger the book became. I have about 60 pages just on marks and bindings and that type of thing alone to help guide the collector to circulate their jewelry.
In the beginning, I thought it would be a normal price book with a little bit of history interjected here and there. I felt if I did that, I was doing the company a disservice because I wouldn’t be representing it as fully as I felt it needed to be represented. It really became an encyclopedia; it’s so huge.
Sharon: It’s a beautiful book. Besides the pictures of the jewelry, there are things about the business you’ve never seen. That was interesting; the marketing, the design, the manufacturing.
Melinda: Yes, I think because we covered those areas, it can give the collector a greater appreciation of what went into the manufacturing of the lines. I’m quite proud of that.
Sharon: Did you have any resistance in terms of people who wouldn’t provide information or photographs? Would they say it’s a company secret?
Melinda: The one thing I felt and experienced was that everyone was very protective of Mr. Napier, extremely protective. He had been gone for over 40 years, but his privacy and their unwillingness to share things sometimes because they didn’t want to paint him in a negative light was quite interesting. So, yes, some employees were very protective of Mr. Napier. They respected him highly.
There are certainly stories I learned about him that will never be published, but his reputation was protected by his employees. They never really said anything negative about him. He was a very strict manager, so to speak. He held his employees to the highest standard, and if you didn’t comply with that, you were out with no ifs, ands or buts. Napier means “without equal,” and he stood by that as a company mantra. He expected nothing but the best.
Sharon: What language is that in? I didn’t think it meant anything.
Melinda: I’m not sure. I thought it was Scottish. The employees talked about that, about Napier meaning without equal. I haven’t studied the etymology of that particular word, so I can’t say for certain.
Sharon: Tell us about the book. You have so many beautiful images and pictures and photographs. Tell us how many pictures and how you got them.
Melinda: The book is 1,012 pages long. There are over 4,000 images and 250,000 words. A lot of the pictures came from employees themselves, especially the early renderings for E.A. Bliss and pictures in the 1920s. A lot of it came from Napier employees supplying me with the information. Unfortunately, I did not have access to the Napier paper archives, so basically everything in the book was given to me by Napier employees, in terms of ads and that type of thing.
99% of the pictures are images I took of the actual jewelry. While I traveled across the country, I would photograph the collections, and then we had them edited for the book.
Sharon: Did employees tell you, “This person has a collection in Wyoming,” or “This person is in Kentucky”? How did you find it?
Melinda: I found it through the collections of the employees I interviewed. I didn’t interview anyone that was outside the company. Some people did supply their images. When I noticed something on eBay, I would write them and say, “I’m writing a book on Napier. Would you be interested in allowing me to include your image in the book?” So, some of them are from people in the trades who were selling on eBay, but for the most part it was either Napier employees’ collections or pieces I had acquired from the archives.
Sharon: Do you think that Napier, because he pioneered a lot of the manufacturing techniques, do you think it’s true that it was without equal? Or were all the costume jewelry companies doing the same thing?
Melinda: The thing that made Napier stand out from the other companies was that it used multiple manufacturing techniques. It had die-stamped jewelry, things that involved wire bending or casting or what they called stranding. They did pioneer some new techniques, especially during the war time when they were under government contracts. So did other jewelry companies, but what made them unique was that they had the ability to manufacture jewelry in multiple ways so they could respond to the market quite easily.
Sharon: I always think of the big three of costume jewelry being Napier, Trifari—I talked to a Trifari expert who told me that’s wrong, but Trifari, and the third one is—
Melinda: Monet.
Sharon: Monet, that’s right.
Melinda: Yes.
Sharon: What made Napier different?
Melinda: Monet did what’s called metal. Trifari did color, more rhinestones. Marvella, which was another big one, did pearl. Napier did all three. It could go into a department store and fill the needs of a jewelry department with its entire line. That’s what made it quite competitive. They would go in, probably often before the other salesmen got to go meet with the jewelry buyer, and they would sell their entire lines. If that store needed metals, they could supply metals. If they needed pearl, Napier could provide them with pearl. If they needed color, Napier had that.
Now, Napier’s color or rhinestone jewelry sometimes had a distinct look because they utilized the dye-stamping technique. You’d get those really great, embossed, highly detailed metal pieces that were accented with rhinestones. But Napier also did rhinestone jewelry like Weiss—I mean the styles and techniques would be similar to Lee Serge or something like that. People are often surprised when they see the glitzy Napier rhinestone jewelry and don’t realize Napier did that too. Yes, they did. They were able to offer the jewelry buyer a broad spectrum of inventory. They were a small company playing in a big pond with big players.
Sharon: Were they mostly manufacturing back east?
Melinda: Yes, in Meriden, Connecticut. Later they had a satellite factory for their model making in Providence, Rhode Island, because that’s where most model makers lived. They did some of their manufacturing in Providence, but mainly it was in Meriden, Connecticut.
Sharon: Somebody who’s into costume jewelry—I can’t remember who—told me that one of them is still collectable and reasonably priced. It wasn’t Napier, but I think it was Trifari. They said if you saw a piece of Trifari, you should grab it. Would you agree with that?
Melinda: Trifari is very hot right now. So is Schreiner in part because of the Chinese and Russian markets. 90% of the higher-end Trifari or Schreiner is going out of our country right now to collectors in China and Russia. That’s a new phenomenon. Costume jewelry collecting tapered off a little or hit a lull, but these new markets have really changed things in the last year or so. The realized prices have been phenomenal.
In terms of Monet, there are still a lot of bargains to be found. There are some things that may cost a couple of hundred dollars or so. With Napier, the prices have remained steady over the last 10 years, but I’m now shipping to China. That’s a new phenomenon. I’m starting to sell a lot of the higher-end Napier to our Chinese customers.
Sharon: There are not that many department stores around anymore. I can think of two maybe, but when you see costume jewelry, do you go in and look at it? If you haven’t seen it before, do you look at the back? Do you look at the way stones are put in it? What do you look at, or do you look?
Melinda: I do. You look at all of the above. The back is just as important as the front in terms of looking at the construction. On occasion, when we go to the city, I’ll go look at the jewelry departments, but I haven’t really been looking at new contemporary jewelry because my focus has always been on jewelry that’s made prior to 2000. I don’t go shopping that much for the new lines.
Sharon: I guess I’m thinking of Oscar de la Renta, which has a costume jewelry line. They license it to whoever did it. Do you look at the back? Do you look at whether it was done 20, 30 years ago?
Melinda: Sure, you look at the back and the front. Oscar de la Renta has been made in the U.S. by Gem-Craft in Providence, and it’s really beautiful. A lot of the contemporary pieces for the Oscar de la Renta line are wonderfully made. It’s a great example of a contemporary line being made in the U.S.
Sharon: I’ll find myself saying, “Oh, it’s just costume.” Why do you think “costume” was pejorative? At first it wasn’t pejorative, but now it’s become, “Oh, it’s costume.” What happened?
Melinda: For me, I haven’t experienced that. Maybe that’s because of the people I surround myself with. Costume jewelry elicits feeling of happiness. I don’t think of it in a negative term, but perhaps some of our younger people who are minimalists do. If you were a minimalist, I could see why you wouldn’t want to deal with costume jewelry. That’s just frivolous. There are more important things to deal with. But in my community, costume jewelry is nothing but a positive. I don’t have that negative attachment to it.
Sharon: Maybe it’s just me. Why did they start making costume jewelry? What I’m always surprised by is that everything was just as nice about it, but it wasn’t a real ruby. That’s all. It was a synthetic one.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lisa Koenigsberg
Lisa Koenigsberg is President and Founder, Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) and an internationally recognized thought-leader in visual culture. Koenigsberg’s work is characterized by commitment to authenticity, artisanry, materials, sustainability, and responsible practice. Over 20 years ago, she established IAC’s multi-disciplinary conference series on visual culture and has since been responsible for launching its web-based webinars and other offerings. She has held leadership positions at NYU where she also served on the faculty, at several major museums, and at the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission.
Koenigsberg’s writings have appeared in such books as The Art of Collecting (ed. D. Jensen), Auspicious Vision: Edward Wales Root and American Modernism, Architecture: A Place for Women (eds. E. P. Berkeley and M. McQuaid), The Gilded Edge: The Art of the Frame (ed. E. Wilner), in journals such as Gems and Jewellery (the publication of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain), American Art Journal, Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society, and Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, as well as in magazines and in Trendvision’s Trendbook.
A frequent speaker, she has also organized symposia and special sessions at universities, museums, and professional organizations throughout the US and abroad, including at the State Art Collections of Dresden, NYU, City University Graduate Center, the Smithsonian Institution, the Norton Museum of Art, and the United Nations, and has organized and chaired sessions at the American Association of Museums, the Goldsmiths Company (London), the Society of Architectural Historians, Yale University Art Gallery, the Aspen Institute, and the Jewelry Industry Summit and at JCK.
She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University and from Yale University from which she received her PhD. She is president of the Board of the Morris–Jumel Museum, a trustee of Glessner House in Chicago, and is a member of the Advisory Board of Ethical Metalsmiths and of the board of the NY Silver Society.
Additional Resources:
Photos are available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
What is sustainable jewelry? According to Lisa Koenigsberg, it’s about much more than the materials used. As founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), Lisa has organized dozens of conferences to encourage people to explore sustainability, stores of value, visual culture and more, all through the lens of jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what visual culture is and why it’s significant; what it means for makers and jewelry professionals to maintain purpose; and what we can expect from IAC’s upcoming conferences. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg speaking to us from New York and environs back east. She is the founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture, which is focused on a number of issues such as women in western art. There’s also a conference, which I just noticed, on arts and crafts in the art world. She is an internationally recognized authority on material culture. This July, she is chairing an important conference called “Maintaining Purpose” with a focus on how to make something we all love, jewelry. We’ll learn more about her jewelry journey today and hear more about the conference. I didn’t go into all the details of the conference and her background because it would take too long. Lisa, welcome to the program.
Lisa: Thank you. It’s so nice to be here.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you a jeweler? Were you educated as a jeweler?
Lisa: No, I am not a jeweler. I am the child of two people who are very object-driven and, of course, a mother with extraordinary taste. But in terms of how you might say I studied jewelry, jewelry was part of what we looked at when thinking about—a term I find not felicitous, but I’ll use it for the moment—decorative arts, so fitting into the range of the useful and the beautiful. Silver, for example. Jewelry certainly had a space there, and that was the earliest point for me that was non-life-driven.
One of the great blessings that happened to me was that I did my graduate work at Yale. That was when the arts and crafts movement wasn’t codified in the same way it is now. We sat around and talked about it in the back room of the American Arts office. There were objects there, and we had the opportunity to hold, see, explore. At the time, I also used to wash silver and jewelry for an extraordinary dealer who wrote a wonderful book, Rosalie Roberian. One of the things that did was give me a sense of weight, dimension, proportion, of engaging closely with materiality. Although the arts and crafts is one dimension, I think that illustrates well one of the things that has been so important for me, which is looking for the opportunity to hold, the opportunity to talk with makers. For example, every year, The Goldsmiths’ Company in the U.K. does something called the Goldsmiths’ Fair. At the Goldsmiths’ Fair, there is one week with 67 or so makers. During that time, you can go and speak with any of the makers, explore the work in your hand, look closely at it. I think the journey of looking is probably one of the most important things.
I’ve been interested in jewelry as a manifestation of the aesthetic of any era for a very long time as well. My background and training are cross-disciplinary. I’m an American studies person. For me, one of the things I always look for is what we are seeing as characteristic of an age, for example. I see jewelry as very much a part of the tangible expressions of an era. For example, if you’re talking about a brooch, you can be working on a sculpture for the body, similarly with neckwear. It’s one of the most intriguing forms of expression there is. Making jewelry, the impulse to craft out of whatever the culture sees as precious material, is one of the innate impulses we have, along with the urge to adorn.
If you step back and think about it, jewelry is intertwined with so many events of state, events of faith, events of heart. The Pope, for example, wears the Fisherman’s Ring, and at the passing of each Pope, that ring is shattered; a new ring is made. We’re all currently fixated on the crown jewels as Charles’ coronation comes up. All of that is actually jewelry. It’s jewelry indicative of state, of lineage, obviously of aesthetics. The band that many of us wear on one left or right ring finger, as simple or as elaborate as it may be, that is jewelry. It’s a signifier. It’s also invested with tremendous emotion.
Jewelry plays an enormously powerful role in culture. It’s another kind of historical document. So, if we look at jewelry, we can learn things. For example, you can explore the kinds of ornament it was thought only men wore, but by actually going back and looking, as it was done in the exhibition “Golden Kingdoms,” you can see that women also wore certain kinds of major ceremonial ornament. You can learn from the inscriptions. You can learn about stylistic transmission from the aesthetics.
One of the things we don’t think about so much is what we leave behind. When we go and look at how we have explored previous cultures, past cultures, one of the things we see is that the documents are often what have been termed luxury arts. They are art that are made of objects that are deemed precious within a culture. They demonstrate a certain egis over resources and talent, but they also serve as documents of that culture. They tell us things about religion, about aesthetics, about faith, about ritual. We need to be thinking about that with regard to jewelry in our own age as well. What are we leaving behind?
Sharon: You cover so many things in Initiatives in Art and Culture. You talk about gems and sustainability and art. It’s so many things. How did you start this, and what is the conference about?
Lisa: I founded Initiatives in Art and Culture in 2004. One of the reasons it was started is because I had developed a series of conferences that had, at their core, a concern for visual culture. What does visual culture tell you? Because there is much to be learned about materiality. What’s it made of? How do we get those materials? And that opens the door to discussing sustainability. Then, what’s done with those materials? What are the forms? What are the means of expression, whether it’s three-dimensional, such as a ring, or two-dimensional, except that it really has a third dimension, however subtle it may be. So, within the category of good, better or best, what differentiates an object from another? Then taking it a step further, what does that object mean in terms of the way we use it, in terms of its place in society, in terms of what it says? Beyond that, how is it linked to the time, or does it presage the future in some way? I’m sure I’ve left out some foci related to political and social concerns, but it’s that wholeness that is inherent in visual culture. That is the focus of what IAC does. We have deep commitment to artistry and materials as well as a commitment to responsible practice.
Sharon: Several questions. Were you always interested in all of this, or is it something your professors taught you and you learned as you read? It’s not the way I would look at something. I think it’s really interesting. How did you start looking at this?
Lisa: I was born into a family that was and remains very visually engaged and involved with art, very involved with looking. Well before I had what one might think of as a professor, I had my parents, who in effect included me in their world of looking from moment one. My experience of art, of objects, has been part of my life since the very beginning. For us, a shared experience was very often looking, whether it was going to an exhibition or a trip planned specifically to see certain things. This was very much part of my world, or the world I was lucky enough to be born into. That included the people that were friends of my parents, and that included curators and collectors and people who were very engaged in the world of looking. My mother herself is a very well-recognized either fiber artist or artist who does sculpture using wire to explore grid and void. I say that to avoid the nomenclature wars.
I was very lucky to have some extraordinary teachers, but one of the best teachers I had was in high school. We reenacted the Ruskin Whistler trial. I was the attorney for Ruskin, so I had to know all about each one of the witnesses, each one of the people who appeared and testified in the trial, and that made art come alive in a way that was exceptional. Another thing was that during those years, there was something called the myth and image school. It’s the idea that an era has emblems that are representative, that are invested with particular meaning. There may be a flip side to that emblem or a parallel that represents its opposite, but this idea, one which is very cross-disciplinary and often ranges through literature and art, was incredibly formative for me. This is the stuff my teachers exposed me to when I was 13, 14. I was reading these books because they had read them in school, in college, and they shared them with us. For me, going to university—I went to Johns Hopkins and did a BA/MA in history—it was, on the one hand, a new chapter and transformative, but on the other hand, it was in some ways a continuation of what I had been doing all the way along.
Sharon: Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like—I’ve watched your conferences for a long time, and it seems that you focus on art and gems and other things. This idea of maintaining purpose and an emphasis on sustainability seems to be in the last few years. Am I incorrect? Do you just put on a conference when you think it’s a really important subject and it’s coming to the fore?
Lisa: Sustainability is a dicey word when it comes to what exactly that means. At root, it is to survive, but in our thinking, sustainability is linked to responsible practice, which can involve how you source materials, how you make an object, what the circumstances and conditions of that making are. We actually have been interested in that since the first project. It was called “Green,” and it was in 2008. The reason that happened was there was an increasing concern with what was then called sustainability, which was often associated with the color green. We had something I definitely want to revive, which is a conference of 20 years of looking at fashion jewels, the zeitgeist of culture, photography, literature, etc. This term sustainability was being used, green was being used, and one of the things I didn’t want to do was a superficial one-off.
So, we decided that for the 10th year—I think it was the 10th year—of that conference, we would do something called “Green: Sustainability, Significance, and Style.” In that conference we looked at color, of course; we even looked at green diamonds, but we also looked at coral and organic material that’s made into jewelry. The issues pertaining to coral were at peak interest at that point, and we did quite a lot in that conference with gold.
That was the first time I worked with Toby Pomeroy, with whom I’ve been fortunate enough to be both friends and colleagues since then. At that point, Toby had done something that was then radical, which was to approach the refiner Hoover & Strong to see if it could be demonstrated that the materials, the scrap, that he came in with was the only material that was in the batch that was refined and that it remained segregated from everything else. That was what you might call an exploration in chain of custody, in the sense that he had a sense of origin of these materials and he wanted to ensure that he could attest to their integrity. Hoover & Strong met the challenge. At that point, Toby was making quite a lot of jewelry, and there was a term that was being used called Eco Loops. Toby has since gone on to do remarkable work with regard to mercury elimination, and he will be involved in the conference, “Maintaining Purpose,” that we are doing.
With “Maintaining Purpose”—and actually with the “Green” conference, we had Mike Kowalski, who was then the chair of Tiffany, involved in the conference. There was a great deal of focus on things like land reclamation and after-mining and that sort of thing. Having said that, one thing I’d like to stress is that one of our speakers, who at that point was the head of Bono’s RED, got up and said, “I know you’re all wondering, ‘What’s a red person doing at a green conference?’” I felt as if I had been hit over the head with pipe, because I had never thought about environmental sustainability or integrity as being isolated from social condition and well-being. Now, when you look at the 17 SDG, you’ll see so many different issues broken out, but one of the things I thought was, “Gosh, we’ve got to do red now,” because this is a split I wasn’t thinking about or perceiving. Green and red basically led to the creation of a conference.
Our initial thinking was to do a conference that would look at precious substances. We did a coral conference; we did a diamond conference, which we were very privileged to do. We had wonderful support from Sally Morrison for that project. Then I woke up and realized we had never done gold, so effectively what happened is that the conference on precious substances became the Gold Conference. The Gold Conference is now entering its 13th year. We broadened gold to include gold and diamonds because we wanted to draw people’s attention to stores of value, which these materials are, and also comparative approaches to things like mining, whether it’s formalized or otherwise. And also because, of course, metal and stone go together. That’s not to say we do not explore and include focus on other stones. We’re very proud that Cruzeiro Mines, which is a tourmaline and rubellite mine from Brazil that has exemplary practices and absolutely beautiful stones, is participating in this year’s conference.
But the way the Gold and Diamond Conference evolved was it came to use jewelry as a lens for a 360-degree approach to the life and the issues associated with the material in question. On the one hand, you have great artistry, like Giovanni Corvaja. We were privileged to have Daniel Brush speak, whose loss I feel keenly. Every year we welcome wonderful jewelers. At the same time, we think about the issues related to extracting material or recycling material and what those words mean. What is recycling? We have repurposed since the dawn of time, so what gives something that halo of recycling? Do we have to think about what we’re using? And, of course, jewelry is a created object. What are the environmental ramifications of extracting, creating the jewelry business writ large? Often in our heads, we think about jewelry and we see a craftsperson, a maker. That aspect of things is very dear to our hearts, and we’re keenly interested in artisanry. At the same time, you have other aspects to this jewelry industry, large corporations that produce for particular market segments. You have the luxe maison.
In some ways, they’re all compatriots in a world, in other ways competitors in a world, and yet bound together by a common concern for ensuring that this world we have continues. Without this world, without this air, without this earth, we are nothing. We can’t make anything. We have effaced ourselves. I think there is a point of critical mass that’s been reached where there is a deep and general concern. One of the things I fear and that I hope I can help with is building community to encourage people to keep going forward despite the fears that we may have about doing something a different way. Last year our conference was “Boldly Building the Future.” How do you boldly build the future? We have many declarations that have been stated about gold, for example. There was a declaration drafted and shepherded through for the gold industry by LBMA and the World Gold Council. They have principles. Principles are not blueprints. How do you get from that vision, the abstract vision, to its implementation? How do you transform?
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lisa Koenigsberg
Lisa Koenigsberg is President and Founder, Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) and an internationally recognized thought-leader in visual culture. Koenigsberg’s work is characterized by commitment to authenticity, artisanry, materials, sustainability, and responsible practice. Over 20 years ago, she established IAC’s multi-disciplinary conference series on visual culture and has since been responsible for launching its web-based webinars and other offerings. She has held leadership positions at NYU where she also served on the faculty, at several major museums, and at the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission.
Koenigsberg’s writings have appeared in such books as The Art of Collecting (ed. D. Jensen), Auspicious Vision: Edward Wales Root and American Modernism, Architecture: A Place for Women (eds. E. P. Berkeley and M. McQuaid), The Gilded Edge: The Art of the Frame (ed. E. Wilner), in journals such as Gems and Jewellery (the publication of the Gemmological Association of Great Britain), American Art Journal, Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society, and Journal of the Society of Architectural Historians, as well as in magazines and in Trendvision’s Trendbook.
A frequent speaker, she has also organized symposia and special sessions at universities, museums, and professional organizations throughout the US and abroad, including at the State Art Collections of Dresden, NYU, City University Graduate Center, the Smithsonian Institution, the Norton Museum of Art, and the United Nations, and has organized and chaired sessions at the American Association of Museums, the Goldsmiths Company (London), the Society of Architectural Historians, Yale University Art Gallery, the Aspen Institute, and the Jewelry Industry Summit and at JCK.
She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University and from Yale University from which she received her PhD. She is president of the Board of the Morris–Jumel Museum, a trustee of Glessner House in Chicago, and is a member of the Advisory Board of Ethical Metalsmiths and of the board of the NY Silver Society.
Additional Resources:
Photos are available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
What is sustainable jewelry? According to Lisa Koenigsberg, it’s about much more than the materials used. As founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), Lisa has organized dozens of conferences to encourage people to explore sustainability, stores of value, visual culture and more, all through the lens of jewelry. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what visual culture is and why it’s significant; what it means for makers and jewelry professionals to maintain purpose; and what we can expect from IAC’s upcoming conferences. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg speaking to us from New York and environs back east. She is the founder of Initiatives in Art and Culture, which is focused on a number of issues such as women in western art. There’s also a conference, which I just noticed, on arts and crafts in the art world. She is an internationally recognized authority on material culture. This July, she is chairing an important conference called “Maintaining Purpose” with a focus on how to make something we all love, jewelry. We’ll learn more about her jewelry journey today and hear more about the conference. I didn’t go into all the details of the conference and her background because it would take too long. Lisa, welcome to the program.
Lisa: Thank you. It’s so nice to be here.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you a jeweler? Were you educated as a jeweler?
Lisa: No, I am not a jeweler. I am the child of two people who are very object-driven and, of course, a mother with extraordinary taste. But in terms of how you might say I studied jewelry, jewelry was part of what we looked at when thinking about—a term I find not felicitous, but I’ll use it for the moment—decorative arts, so fitting into the range of the useful and the beautiful. Silver, for example. Jewelry certainly had a space there, and that was the earliest point for me that was non-life-driven.
One of the great blessings that happened to me was that I did my graduate work at Yale. That was when the arts and crafts movement wasn’t codified in the same way it is now. We sat around and talked about it in the back room of the American Arts office. There were objects there, and we had the opportunity to hold, see, explore. At the time, I also used to wash silver and jewelry for an extraordinary dealer who wrote a wonderful book, Rosalie Roberian. One of the things that did was give me a sense of weight, dimension, proportion, of engaging closely with materiality. Although the arts and crafts is one dimension, I think that illustrates well one of the things that has been so important for me, which is looking for the opportunity to hold, the opportunity to talk with makers. For example, every year, The Goldsmiths’ Company in the U.K. does something called the Goldsmiths’ Fair. At the Goldsmiths’ Fair, there is one week with 67 or so makers. During that time, you can go and speak with any of the makers, explore the work in your hand, look closely at it. I think the journey of looking is probably one of the most important things.
I’ve been interested in jewelry as a manifestation of the aesthetic of any era for a very long time as well. My background and training are cross-disciplinary. I’m an American studies person. For me, one of the things I always look for is what we are seeing as characteristic of an age, for example. I see jewelry as very much a part of the tangible expressions of an era. For example, if you’re talking about a brooch, you can be working on a sculpture for the body, similarly with neckwear. It’s one of the most intriguing forms of expression there is. Making jewelry, the impulse to craft out of whatever the culture sees as precious material, is one of the innate impulses we have, along with the urge to adorn.
If you step back and think about it, jewelry is intertwined with so many events of state, events of faith, events of heart. The Pope, for example, wears the Fisherman’s Ring, and at the passing of each Pope, that ring is shattered; a new ring is made. We’re all currently fixated on the crown jewels as Charles’ coronation comes up. All of that is actually jewelry. It’s jewelry indicative of state, of lineage, obviously of aesthetics. The band that many of us wear on one left or right ring finger, as simple or as elaborate as it may be, that is jewelry. It’s a signifier. It’s also invested with tremendous emotion.
Jewelry plays an enormously powerful role in culture. It’s another kind of historical document. So, if we look at jewelry, we can learn things. For example, you can explore the kinds of ornament it was thought only men wore, but by actually going back and looking, as it was done in the exhibition “Golden Kingdoms,” you can see that women also wore certain kinds of major ceremonial ornament. You can learn from the inscriptions. You can learn about stylistic transmission from the aesthetics.
One of the things we don’t think about so much is what we leave behind. When we go and look at how we have explored previous cultures, past cultures, one of the things we see is that the documents are often what have been termed luxury arts. They are art that are made of objects that are deemed precious within a culture. They demonstrate a certain egis over resources and talent, but they also serve as documents of that culture. They tell us things about religion, about aesthetics, about faith, about ritual. We need to be thinking about that with regard to jewelry in our own age as well. What are we leaving behind?
Sharon: You cover so many things in Initiatives in Art and Culture. You talk about gems and sustainability and art. It’s so many things. How did you start this, and what is the conference about?
Lisa: I founded Initiatives in Art and Culture in 2004. One of the reasons it was started is because I had developed a series of conferences that had, at their core, a concern for visual culture. What does visual culture tell you? Because there is much to be learned about materiality. What’s it made of? How do we get those materials? And that opens the door to discussing sustainability. Then, what’s done with those materials? What are the forms? What are the means of expression, whether it’s three-dimensional, such as a ring, or two-dimensional, except that it really has a third dimension, however subtle it may be. So, within the category of good, better or best, what differentiates an object from another? Then taking it a step further, what does that object mean in terms of the way we use it, in terms of its place in society, in terms of what it says? Beyond that, how is it linked to the time, or does it presage the future in some way? I’m sure I’ve left out some foci related to political and social concerns, but it’s that wholeness that is inherent in visual culture. That is the focus of what IAC does. We have deep commitment to artistry and materials as well as a commitment to responsible practice.
Sharon: Several questions. Were you always interested in all of this, or is it something your professors taught you and you learned as you read? It’s not the way I would look at something. I think it’s really interesting. How did you start looking at this?
Lisa: I was born into a family that was and remains very visually engaged and involved with art, very involved with looking. Well before I had what one might think of as a professor, I had my parents, who in effect included me in their world of looking from moment one. My experience of art, of objects, has been part of my life since the very beginning. For us, a shared experience was very often looking, whether it was going to an exhibition or a trip planned specifically to see certain things. This was very much part of my world, or the world I was lucky enough to be born into. That included the people that were friends of my parents, and that included curators and collectors and people who were very engaged in the world of looking. My mother herself is a very well-recognized either fiber artist or artist who does sculpture using wire to explore grid and void. I say that to avoid the nomenclature wars.
I was very lucky to have some extraordinary teachers, but one of the best teachers I had was in high school. We reenacted the Ruskin Whistler trial. I was the attorney for Ruskin, so I had to know all about each one of the witnesses, each one of the people who appeared and testified in the trial, and that made art come alive in a way that was exceptional. Another thing was that during those years, there was something called the myth and image school. It’s the idea that an era has emblems that are representative, that are invested with particular meaning. There may be a flip side to that emblem or a parallel that represents its opposite, but this idea, one which is very cross-disciplinary and often ranges through literature and art, was incredibly formative for me. This is the stuff my teachers exposed me to when I was 13, 14. I was reading these books because they had read them in school, in college, and they shared them with us. For me, going to university—I went to Johns Hopkins and did a BA/MA in history—it was, on the one hand, a new chapter and transformative, but on the other hand, it was in some ways a continuation of what I had been doing all the way along.
Sharon: Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems like—I’ve watched your conferences for a long time, and it seems that you focus on art and gems and other things. This idea of maintaining purpose and an emphasis on sustainability seems to be in the last few years. Am I incorrect? Do you just put on a conference when you think it’s a really important subject and it’s coming to the fore?
Lisa: Sustainability is a dicey word when it comes to what exactly that means. At root, it is to survive, but in our thinking, sustainability is linked to responsible practice, which can involve how you source materials, how you make an object, what the circumstances and conditions of that making are. We actually have been interested in that since the first project. It was called “Green,” and it was in 2008. The reason that happened was there was an increasing concern with what was then called sustainability, which was often associated with the color green. We had something I definitely want to revive, which is a conference of 20 years of looking at fashion jewels, the zeitgeist of culture, photography, literature, etc. This term sustainability was being used, green was being used, and one of the things I didn’t want to do was a superficial one-off.
So, we decided that for the 10th year—I think it was the 10th year—of that conference, we would do something called “Green: Sustainability, Significance, and Style.” In that conference we looked at color, of course; we even looked at green diamonds, but we also looked at coral and organic material that’s made into jewelry. The issues pertaining to coral were at peak interest at that point, and we did quite a lot in that conference with gold.
That was the first time I worked with Toby Pomeroy, with whom I’ve been fortunate enough to be both friends and colleagues since then. At that point, Toby had done something that was then radical, which was to approach the refiner Hoover & Strong to see if it could be demonstrated that the materials, the scrap, that he came in with was the only material that was in the batch that was refined and that it remained segregated from everything else. That was what you might call an exploration in chain of custody, in the sense that he had a sense of origin of these materials and he wanted to ensure that he could attest to their integrity. Hoover & Strong met the challenge. At that point, Toby was making quite a lot of jewelry, and there was a term that was being used called Eco Loops. Toby has since gone on to do remarkable work with regard to mercury elimination, and he will be involved in the conference, “Maintaining Purpose,” that we are doing.
With “Maintaining Purpose”—and actually with the “Green” conference, we had Mike Kowalski, who was then the chair of Tiffany, involved in the conference. There was a great deal of focus on things like land reclamation and after-mining and that sort of thing. Having said that, one thing I’d like to stress is that one of our speakers, who at that point was the head of Bono’s RED, got up and said, “I know you’re all wondering, ‘What’s a red person doing at a green conference?’” I felt as if I had been hit over the head with pipe, because I had never thought about environmental sustainability or integrity as being isolated from social condition and well-being. Now, when you look at the 17 SDG, you’ll see so many different issues broken out, but one of the things I thought was, “Gosh, we’ve got to do red now,” because this is a split I wasn’t thinking about or perceiving. Green and red basically led to the creation of a conference.
Our initial thinking was to do a conference that would look at precious substances. We did a coral conference; we did a diamond conference, which we were very privileged to do. We had wonderful support from Sally Morrison for that project. Then I woke up and realized we had never done gold, so effectively what happened is that the conference on precious substances became the Gold Conference. The Gold Conference is now entering its 13th year. We broadened gold to include gold and diamonds because we wanted to draw people’s attention to stores of value, which these materials are, and also comparative approaches to things like mining, whether it’s formalized or otherwise. And also because, of course, metal and stone go together. That’s not to say we do not explore and include focus on other stones. We’re very proud that Cruzeiro Mines, which is a tourmaline and rubellite mine from Brazil that has exemplary practices and absolutely beautiful stones, is participating in this year’s conference.
But the way the Gold and Diamond Conference evolved was it came to use jewelry as a lens for a 360-degree approach to the life and the issues associated with the material in question. On the one hand, you have great artistry, like Giovanni Corvaja. We were privileged to have Daniel Brush speak, whose loss I feel keenly. Every year we welcome wonderful jewelers. At the same time, we think about the issues related to extracting material or recycling material and what those words mean. What is recycling? We have repurposed since the dawn of time, so what gives something that halo of recycling? Do we have to think about what we’re using? And, of course, jewelry is a created object. What are the environmental ramifications of extracting, creating the jewelry business writ large? Often in our heads, we think about jewelry and we see a craftsperson, a maker. That aspect of things is very dear to our hearts, and we’re keenly interested in artisanry. At the same time, you have other aspects to this jewelry industry, large corporations that produce for particular market segments. You have the luxe maison.
In some ways, they’re all compatriots in a world, in other ways competitors in a world, and yet bound together by a common concern for ensuring that this world we have continues. Without this world, without this air, without this earth, we are nothing. We can’t make anything. We have effaced ourselves. I think there is a point of critical mass that’s been reached where there is a deep and general concern. One of the things I fear and that I hope I can help with is building community to encourage people to keep going forward despite the fears that we may have about doing something a different way. Last year our conference was “Boldly Building the Future.” How do you boldly build the future? We have many declarations that have been stated about gold, for example. There was a declaration drafted and shepherded through for the gold industry by LBMA and the World Gold Council. They have principles. Principles are not blueprints. How do you get from that vision, the abstract vision, to its implementation? How do you transform?
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cameron Silver
Cameron Silver is the Fashion Director of the H Halston and H by Halston brands. Bringing extensive knowledge about the history of the iconic American brand, Cameron works with a design team to offer seasonal inspiration and styling guidance in line with the Halston brand legacy and unique design DNA.
As a global celebrity stylist, international best-selling author, and fashion expert appearing regularly on shows such as Good Morning America and CBS This Morning, he is widely recognized as a fashion and style authority. Cameron is also the founder of Decades, an acclaimed vintage retail store in Los Angeles worshipped by fashionistas and collectors alike for an unparalleled collection of designer clothing and accessories dating from the 1920s to today. In 2012, he published the global best-selling book, DECADES: A Century of Fashion, and has written for publications including Harper's Bazaar and C Magazine. Cameron brings his expertise on the history of fashion to speaking engagements around the world, focusing on the past, reflecting on the current state of fashion, and contemplating the future of fashion.
Cameron also starred in the Bravo television show Dukes of Melrose which profiled his store, Decades. Named one of Time Magazine's "25 Most Influential Names and Faces in Fashion,” he has styled celebrities for major red carpet appearances including the Golden Globes and Academy Awards and consulted for fashion and luxury brands around the world.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Decades Showroom:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jeremy May
Jeremy May is a Landscape Architect born in Suffolk, UK. After having worked in his field of design for over 10 years, Jeremy created the first paper ring in September 2007. Jeremy’s literary jewels were first introduced to the public in January 2009, transforming the paper that aspires to last beautifully and bring joy, colour, and love to all those sustainably minded individuals. The jewels have been presented in London, Paris, Osaka, Athens, Hamburg and Saint Petersburg. Currently Jeremy is working on private commissions and on creating collections of jewels under a thematology to be presented in exhibitions around the world. He lives and works in London.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
It takes an adventurous jewelry designer to eschew traditional materials like metal and diamonds in favor of paper. But as a former landscape architect who left his career for more thrilling creative pursuits, Jeremy May was up for the challenge. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why he was drawn to paper when he first discovered jewelry making; how he came up with his one-of-a-kind technique; and how he works with clients to create the perfect, meaningful piece. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, speaking to us from London is Jeremy May, who creates unique literary jewels from pages of vintage books. He transforms these books into unique pieces of paper jewelry with quotes carefully cut from the book. Each piece is unique to the wearer. We will hear more about the books and how he creates his unique jewels today. Welcome back.
So, you’re proud of everything you do, you said. Have you ever told a client, “That book isn’t the right book for you”?
Jeremy: Yeah. I’ve had clients come and say, “I’d like you to use this book,” and I’m like, “No, not really. Can you think of something else?”
Sharon: You don’t think the book reflects the person they want to give it to? It’s too blah?
Jeremy: I haven’t really thought it through. If they say, “I want you to reuse this book because of this and this,” then I’ll say, “O.K., that’s fine. It’s not my personal choice. I don’t particularly like that style of writing. I don’t like that author,” but sometimes you get a feeling they want me to make a piece of jewelry and they haven’t really thought through what the title is or what it means or what the story represents. Sometimes after we’ve had a chat and I’ve explained my feelings about the book, they go, “O.K., yeah, you’re absolutely right.” They come back with another title and I go, “O.K., that’s great.”
Sharon: So they listen to you, basically. Besides the jewelry, they listen to you. You describe your jewels as sculptural, and you haven’t put them together. Is that something you intend to do?
Jeremy: That’s right, to put them together.
Sharon: Put them together to make a larger sculpture. Do you intend to do that?
Jeremy: Yeah, potentially. Sometimes I think about things and they don’t come to fruition for years. I’m a very messy designer. I don’t have notebooks. I’m not that way. I just have loose pieces of paper, much to my wife’s annoyance. I’ll take a piece of paper and just sketch. I have an idea, and then I’ll put that in a drawer. I’ll be looking for something six months later and I’ll go, “Oh, yeah, I forgot about it.” Sometimes it takes a while. I would love to make something bigger, actually combining books together to make one piece. Yes, absolutely. It’s definitely possible.
Sharon: The people who find you are mostly men. What happens when a book is in a different language, like you described how you were in Japan and you had an exhibit? What do you do when it’s in a different language?
Jeremy: I find a translation online, or I can go and buy another book in English. The majority of books—this sounds very pompous—are in English, and then they’ve been translated into another language. When someone comes to me, I can go, “Yeah,” and I can find that quite easily. Basically, I find a translation in English.
Sharon: That’s interesting. What kind of creative outlets did you think about when you were leaving architecture?
Jeremy: How do you mean?
Sharon: You had mentioned that you left architecture because you felt you could do other things and you’d done it for 12 years.
Jeremy: Yeah.
Sharon: Did you think about other creative outlets you could do instead?
Jeremy: No, the jewelry came at the time when I thought I was happy doing landscape architecture with design. I realized by working with jewelry and creating jewelry that I was happier in a way. I had more creativity, more ideas, more output. I was like, “Oh, there’s a bright light. I’m just going to go over here.” I was quite happy where I was until I was given something else to take my attention. I didn’t think about anything else.
Sharon: You’re following the shiny penny.
Jeremy: Yes.
Sharon: Did you immediately transition from architecture to jewelry? The way you described it, it didn’t sound like you did both for 10 years and then segued to jewelry.
Jeremy: No, I created a few pieces of jewelry over about two years. I was still working in an office as a landscape architect, and slowly I was spending more time making jewelry and experimenting. Then it came to 2008 when the recession happened here in the U.K., and a lot of my projects I was working on with Watkins Dally Architects were put on hold. Then I was given the opportunity to spend more time working on my new passion. I worked on that for about six months. I was so enthusiastic about it, but I wasn’t getting enough work. I wasn’t paying the bills, let’s say. So, I went back and worked with Watkins Dally Architects for another year and was still working on jewelry at night. After that, I went into creating my jewelry full time. So, there was a transition of a few years.
Sharon: What made you decide on jewelry? A lot of people have it as a hobby. You came home from your landscape architecture job during the day and then did jewelry in the evening.
Jeremy: Yes.
Sharon: Describe your feelings there.
Jeremy: I felt so passionate about it. This is what I wanted to do. This was my calling, if you like. It’s what really got me excited and got me out of bed in the morning. I was really happy about it. It was a big leap of faith, and my wife was super understanding. I just went for it and so far, it’s paid off.
Sharon: You have an understanding wife. I probably would be saying to my husband to go get a job. You mentioned that you ask your clients for their favorite quotes within the book. Is that correct?
Jeremy: I ask them for their quotes. I also take my own quotes.
Sharon: It’s encased in the jewelry then, if I’m understanding it correctly. Right?
Jeremy: I take the book as the foundation for the design. I then take the quote as the detailing of the jewel.
Sharon: Does the quote come directly from the book?
Jeremy: Yes. There will be a particular quote I get inspired by to complete the piece of jewelry. It’s also within the jewel. Sometimes it appears on the surface and sometimes it’s inside. There have been times when clients have asked me for a particular quote to appear on the actual jewel so it’s visible, which is very passionate to them. It’s a combination of the two, I would say.
Sharon: If it’s in the jewel, if it’s not on the outside, what’s their feeling? Do they get upset or do they trust you that it’s there?
Jeremy: They trust me, which is amazing.
Sharon: How do you get more color? Do you get more color into the jewel if your client wants more color?
Jeremy: Yes, I have two ways of doing that. One is I stain or dye the paper if I want a particular shade or color I can’t find using colored paper. That’s the other way I add color to my jewels, from colored paper, which I find everywhere with wrapping paper. I find it and store it. I have drawers of different colored paper.
Sharon; Do you use that paper?
Jeremy: Yeah.
Sharon: Has anybody ever come to you with a comic book and said, “Do something with this?”
Jeremy: No, they haven’t, but I have used Japanese manga books. They were absolutely amazing to use.
Sharon: Why?
Jeremy: Because they have so much depth and color and texture. When you’re laminating from a book using just text, you have the color of the paper and then you have the black text. When you’re using a coloring book or a manga book, then the actual color from the ink is there. You end up with this very multicolored surface and technique. It’s much more vibrant.
Sharon: It sounds very nice.
Jeremy: Yeah, it’s super nice. I was fortunate enough to go to Japan, and I came back with a second suitcase.
Sharon: Do you have favorite books you like to do, favorite jewels you like to do? What are your thoughts about that?
Jeremy: No. I go to secondhand bookshops and charity bookshops. I go there every week and look for whatever takes my fancy. I’m a bit of a magpie when it comes to that. Then books will sit on my bookshelf. This is for when I’m making jewels for my own collection to exhibit in museums and galleries. They may sit there for a few years or a few months, and then I’ll be inspired to take that book and read it.
I look to choose books that I would never normally find. That’s why I like to go to secondhand bookshops, because you never know what you’re going to find. It’s there, and you can sit there and actually look. When you to go to a new bookshop, they’re all pristine and perfect and in alphabetical order and everything. I like to go rummaging. I like to go through big piles and boxes of books and discover something I would never find normally by going online or into a new bookshop.
Sharon: When a client brings you a book you haven’t read, do you read the book first?
Jeremy: Absolutely. I read all of the books. Even if I’ve read it before, I read it again because it gives different emotions, which I then translate into the design. I always read the book, no matter if I’ve read it two or three times before.
Sharon: When you say you are passionate about jewelry, how does that compare to passion for landscape architecture? It sounds like that really caught your fancy in the beginning.
Jeremy: Yes, the similarities between the two are that they both change people’s lives. I think with landscape architecture, you’re working with the greater public and you’re designing an environment which is going to change their lives for the better, hopefully. With jewelry, you’re creating something beautiful which is going to change someone’s life. That’s just one person’s life, but they’re quite similar.
Sharon: In the beginning, did your passion to change people’s lives with landscape architecture influence the way you do jewelry?
Jeremy: In the beginning, yes. I was designing urban parks and working directly with the public. You have lots of conversations with them and you work up their exact needs. Sometimes a lot of people don’t know what they need, so you need to ask them other questions to find out about their lives and how they’re going to use the landscape. Then you come up with a design that way.
Sharon: If somebody needs a jewel and comes to you and says, “I need a jewel for an anniversary,” what do you ask? Tell us what you ask.
Jeremy: It’s quite funny because there are a lot of transferrable things from working with landscape architecture and designing a park with making a piece of jewelry. I ask people to send a small bio about who it’s going to be made for so I can actually understand who they are. Otherwise, I’m designing blind. I get inspired. I take a lot of inspiration and discovery from the text, but I also need to understand who I’m creating for because all my jewelry is completely unique. I’m not producing the same ring or necklace over and over again, so I want to know who I’m designing for. I don’t ask specific questions. I want the person to explain to me and give me little nuggets of information that fill me with joy. When a gentleman comes to me and says, “I want a ring for my wife,” you go up into the clouds and he’s like, “Yes, she’s lovely.” I love that. I really love that.
Sharon: Do people find it hard to write about another person?
Jeremy: No, I have never noticed that because it’s about your loved one. It’s someone you deeply care about that you want to have this piece of jewelry designed for them. I’ve never had anyone say, “I don’t know.” It’s very spontaneous, I think. I’ve had pages sometimes, and sometimes it’s just been a couple of paragraphs.
Sharon: I can see writing about somebody else. If I had to write about myself, that would be harder.
Jeremy: Yeah, but sometimes people give a little biography. Sometimes people want me to use a book that was given to them by their father and the father has passed away. They’ll explain more about their father or their mother or someone who’s passed away and explain why this book is so personal to them. They may say a little bit about themselves, but there’s more about why they want this book used. You end up designing a ring for that person, but you’re also understanding where that desire to have that jewelry comes from. It’s for the passing of a dear friend or a relative. It all adds into the soup.
Sharon: The mixture.
Jeremy: Yeah, the mixture of the design. All those things are swimming around in my head. That’s what I really love about it.
Sharon: Can you describe how it is when you jump out of bed, or do you jump out of bed? What do you start or how?
Jeremy: In the morning, it depends on the day, but most of the days I’m ready to go. There are some times when I take a weekend off and I’m super, super eager to get back into the studio on Monday morning. I have itchy fingers.
Sharon: Do you ever have kids—let’s say their parent comes and they say this is for their mom, but the kids give the book and want you to create the jewel?
Jeremy: Yes, yeah.
Sharon: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. It’s great. Your work is in a collection, you said.
Jeremy: Yes, I am. I’m about to go off now to the private view. That’s happening now. I’m super excited about that. That’s going to happen over the next few days. I’m super, super excited.
Sharon: I wish I could be there to see all your jewels. Another year. Jeremy, thank you very much.
Jeremy: Thank you very much. It’s been an honor.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jeremy May
Jeremy May is a Landscape Architect born in Suffolk, UK. After having worked in his field of design for over 10 years, Jeremy created the first paper ring in September 2007. Jeremy’s literary jewels were first introduced to the public in January 2009, transforming the paper that aspires to last beautifully and bring joy, colour, and love to all those sustainably minded individuals. The jewels have been presented in London, Paris, Osaka, Athens, Hamburg and Saint Petersburg. Currently Jeremy is working on private commissions and on creating collections of jewels under a thematology to be presented in exhibitions around the world. He lives and works in London.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
It takes an adventurous jewelry designer to eschew traditional materials like metal and diamonds in favor of paper. But as a former landscape architect who left his career for more thrilling creative pursuits, Jeremy May was up for the challenge. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why he was drawn to paper when he first discovered jewelry making; how he came up with his one-of-a-kind technique; and how he works with clients to create the perfect, meaningful piece. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, speaking to us from London is Jeremy May, who creates unique literary jewels from pages of vintage books. He transforms these books into unique pieces of paper jewelry with quotes carefully cut from the book. Each piece is unique to the wearer. We will hear more about the books and how he creates his unique jewels today. Jeremy, welcome to the program.
Jeremy: Hello. It’s an honor and a delight to speak to you.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. How did you start?
Jeremy: I started in 2007. I made my first ring for my wife for our first wedding anniversary. I made it from a newspaper, and that’s basically how it all started for me in the jewelry world. I studied as a landscape architect, and I did that for about 12 years. When I made the first ring, that was like the catalyst. I saw my new profession, and I decided that landscape architecture was not for me. I started making jewelry.
Sharon: With landscape architecture, had it been in the back of your mind, “I have to find something else”?
Jeremy: I started landscape architecture from a very young age. My parents were both in the horticulture world, so it was in the forefront of my mind. My grandfather was a head gardener, so plants and horticulture were always at the forefront of my mind. It was second nature. For me, a progression into landscape architecture was great because I loved art and design, and that was my output, if you like, for creativity. From a very young age, about the age of 12 or 13, I decided I was going to be a landscape architect.
I researched and worked out how I was going to do this, what courses and classes I needed to take. I ended up going to Greenwich University, and it was very much an art-based course. It was less about horticulture and plants and more about design. I loved it; I adored it, actually. It was less writing and exam-based and more about design and making artwork, really. I was in my element there, and then you get to the end of the course and go, “O.K., now I have to go and get a job. That’s fine.” For 10 years, I loved it; I really did. I was working with the public. I was creating urban parks in London and having so much fun, but my biggest problem was that the projects were taking too long. They were taking years and years to come to fruition. I started to get itchy feet, so I decided I was going to change, but I didn’t know what and I didn’t know how. This went on for two years.
In the meantime, I made my first ring for Eva, and then it was like, “Oh wow! I can do this.” I had never thought about jewelry before. I had never thought there was this whole world out there. I had no understanding of it, but I knew I was getting excited about it. I was like a dog with a bone. I went to see friends who were jewelers and watchmakers and product designers, and I asked them questions. I had lots of chats with them and they helped me a lot. They gave me books and introduced me to other people, but everything they were saying wasn’t interesting to me. They were showing me things that had already been done by people who had already worked with metal, with pearls, with diamonds, and it didn’t really interest me.
I really wanted to understand paper, so people were showing me origami and folded paper. I was like, “O.K., that’s great, but it’s not really what I’m interested in.” I wanted to discover something new. I wanted to invent something or do something that no one else was really doing. I was just playing around, and I started stacking paper up. It was like a eureka moment. I compressed them under high pressure, and then it was like, “Oh wow! That works!” It was almost like turning paper back into wood. I created a material—it was a bit like plywood—but I wasn’t using any glues or resins. It was also purely natural. It was just paper. I was like, “Oh wow! If I do it like this and I do that, maybe I can make a ring out of this.” That’s basically how I started.
Sharon: With all the art they taught you, did they touch on jewelry at all?
Jeremy: No, never. It was fine art. It was painting. It was a little bit of collage, and we were working with clay. We were working with a lot of materials. We were given the opportunity to experiment and do anything to get the mind working, to be inspired and then to help you come up with a design. They were trying to get you to have a catalyst to get you inspired.
Sharon: Inspired for landscape architecture work or everything?
Jeremy: Well, it was good training for anything, but in this situation it was for landscape architecture. If ever you got stuck with a design and you didn’t know where to go, they were saying, “Why don’t you do a collage? Why don’t you do a painting? Why don’t you make something with your hands?” It would help you become un-stuck and inspire you.
At university, my teachers were constantly saying, “Think about something new. Think about something different. Don’t go down the same route. Don’t copy.” That formed me. What molded me into me now is that I don’t want to copy people. I don’t want to copy a design. I don’t want to copy my same design. I want each piece I make to be unique and one-off. It bores me, in a way, to repeat myself. I can’t do it. If someone says to me, “Oh, I like that ring. Can you make one the same?” No, I can’t.
Sharon: That’s interesting. When you went to these jewelers to ask them their opinion or get ideas, you already had it in mind that you wanted to do something different.
Jeremy: Yeah, because I didn’t know what it was to work with paper. I thought about working with wood or some other material. They gave me books, “This is what other people have done,” and I was like, “That’s great, but it’s not what I want.” I wasn’t inspired. It wasn’t like, “Oh, wow! Maybe I can work on that and come up with another solution, another idea.” When I went away, I was a bit disappointed and frustrated, but after sitting there daydreaming—which is one of the things I love, just to daydream, to have the opportunity to sit back and look out the window and let your mind wander. I find a lot of solutions and problems are solved that way. Yes, my friends helped me a lot in showing me what I didn’t want to do.
Sharon: These people, these jewelers, probably thought you were nuts when you mentioned paper.
Jeremy: Yes, in a way. They were classically trained jewelers working with precious metals and I said, “O.K., I want to do something different. I don’t know what I want to do. Can you help me? I really want to work with paper because paper is the first material for a wedding anniversary.” That was my starting point. From there, it was like, “O.K., maybe you could do this. Maybe you could that,” and I was like, “O.K.”
Sharon: How do you choose the paper and the book? If I come to you with a book, do you say, “O.K., I’ll take this book and use it,” or do you have input?
Jeremy: Clients come to me and say, “I want you to make me a piece of jewelry.” Some of them will say, “This is the book I want you to use,” and I go, “O.K., that’s great.” Other clients say, “I don’t know what book I want to use. Can you help me?” and I give them parameters. I say, “If you have a thick book, then the piece of jewelry can be bigger. If it’s thin, then you can do a smaller piece.” It comes down to the quality of the book, whether it’s hardcover or softcover, the age of the book, the country the book was published in, because that can lead to different qualities of paper. You have a chat with the client about that, but then it comes down to the clients, what book is personal to them. Books are very, very personal, and it means a lot to them to have a particular novel or author.
Sharon: Do you have a library yourself that you pull from and say, “How about this book?”
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely I do. My shelves here are absolutely full. I can say, “What about this one? What about that one?” but the majority of the time they say to me, “I’ll send you a book,” and they’ll go to their own library and clip it out. Or, if they say, “I want this book,” I can start researching to find a suitable copy. I prefer to work with vintage books, ones that have been read or are being used. They feel like they have a history to them. I don’t particularly like using new books that have just been printed.
Sharon: Do you say to them, “Pick the book,” and give them parameters, and then do you say, “Pick the quote in the book you want”?
Jeremy: No, after I receive the book, I read the book completely. While I’m reading, I’m sketching. Within the words, I get inspired for the design of the jewel. From there, I pick a particular quote, and that then inspires me to finalize the design.
Sharon: So, you might start out with a ring and then read the book and say, “This should really be a pin,” or “It should be a necklace.”
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon: Does the client say anything to you? Do they argue?
Jeremy: I am so lucky that clients go with what I say. There have only been a few times when they said, “I really would like some reds. I would like it a little bit bigger.” I’m so lucky that clients just go, “Yup, that’s great,” which is completely different from when I was working as a landscape architect. You would take your design to the client and they would go, “I don’t know. Maybe you could change this. Maybe you could change that.” You go through so many revisions. Now I’m producing sketches, and I send them to clients and they go, “Yeah, great, fantastic!” I’m like, “Really? Are you sure? Would you like little changes?” “No, I love it. Let’s do it.”
Sharon: That’s very nice that they don’t have that many changes, only once in a while. Tell us about the process. How do you make pages stick together? How do you make your jewelry stick together, because it’s made of different pieces, right?
Jeremy: Yeah. That is a little bit of magic and a little bit of a secret, but I don’t use any strong chemicals. I don’t use glues or anything like that. I’m basically using high pressure and squashing them together. I use a form of Japanese lacquer to coat them, but the strength of it comes from the actual paper, the lamination. I’m folding the paper. I’m overlapping it and then compressing it into the actual form.
Sharon: Does paper jewelry last like a jewel?
Jeremy: Absolutely. I made the first one for my wife in 2007 and it’s as the day I made it. You do have to respect it. It is paper. It’s not metal, so if you do bang it hard, you can chip the corner or it can split. I’ve had that a couple of times from clients. They didn’t realize it, mainly because it’s so light. I’ve had this in galleries. People have come up and gone, “Wow,” and they pick the ring up and then immediately drop it because they expect it to be heavy. It’s paper, so I understand that it can damage if they drop it onto a concrete floor or something like that, but I can easily repair it.
Sharon: The high pressure and the techniques you use, are they things you learned being a landscape architect?
Jeremy: No, this was completely separate. It was through experimentation. Over the years, I’ve just experimented and changed my techniques over the last 15 years or so. It’s a beautiful material to work with because it allows you to do pretty much anything in any form, and I’m constantly experimenting with the form. I’m constantly looking for new techniques or a way of fine-tuning it to be able to make bigger or smaller pieces. I’ve started to experiment with larger sculptures because I think my work is sculptural. It’s sculpture you can wear, and I’ve thought, “Oh, maybe I can make this slightly bigger.” I use books, so I’m confined by the size of the book. If I can find a big book, then I’m super excited. I have made three or four sculptures now.
Sharon: Can you put books together for larger pieces?
Jeremy: I suppose I could, but I’ve never actually done that.
Sharon: Would you say what you do is art jewelry?
Jeremy: Yeah, I think so. I always think of jewelry as precious materials and gold and stuff like that, so I see my work more as sculpture, jewelry sculpture. I always find it weird to call myself an artist or a jeweler. I don’t know exactly what I am, but it’s a point to say, “You’re this. You’re that.” But I create sculpture people can wear, I think.
Sharon: How do you describe it to people who walk into a gallery and see all this metal, whether it’s an art gallery or a jewelry gallery, and then they see paper jewelry? How do you describe what you do?
Jeremy: All my jewelry is set within the book. So, after I’ve read the book, I’m cutting exactly the amount of paper I need from the book in the shape of the jewel. When I’m finished, the jewel goes back into the book. In the gallery, I present the piece of jewelry with the book, so immediately when they see it, they make the connection, “Ah, it’s paper.” Sometimes they say, “Why are you putting clay jewelry in books?” They can’t understand. Then I say, “No, it’s from the book. It’s paper.” “Oh, wow!” I do try and put text or some sort of reference to the book visible on the ring so in an exhibition, people can actually make the connection.
Sharon: That’s interesting. That’s why I asked you how long it lasts. I think of paper jewelry as being really delicate and not long-lasting, but you say you laminate it. Do you make one-offs only?
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. I do one-offs because I get inspired by the book, that individual, unique book. When I read another book, I get inspired in a completely different direction, which makes it super exciting. When I start reading, I don’t know what I’m going to make. By the end of the book, I know exactly what piece I’m going to make. It makes my job super exciting. I never get bored.
Sharon: So, you’ll pick a book that a client hasn’t brought you, but just a book you wanted to read, and you design something while you’re reading it.
Jeremy: Yeah, exactly. For an exhibition or a gallery exhibition, I’ll produce a series of works where I’ve chosen the book. Normally I choose a theme. I’ve done exhibitions revolving around Harlem novels or fantasy novels or romances. I do it within a library or a genre.
Sharon: How do people find you? What’s your biggest way of getting the word out?
Jeremy: I honestly don’t know. A lot of it has been luck. When I started, a friend of mine had a shop in London and she said, “Why don’t you come and do a few pieces in my shop? I can sell them there.” I said, “O.K., great.” From that, someone was walking past. They saw the work and said, “Oh, come and exhibit in Paris.” I said, “O.K., I’ll come and exhibit in Paris.” From there I got an exhibition in Japan. It’s all been like that. I never really went out looking for galleries or anything. I never pushed my work. People just found me, which has been really nice. Blogs have found me over the years. They come across my website and they’ve written about me. Then other people write about me through the internet. People are finding me that way. Then Instagram came along, which is fantastic as well.
Sharon: Your website is very nice. Tell us the name of the link on your website. We’ll have it at the end.
Jeremy: It’s Littlefly.co.uk. That’s Little Fly because in the beginning I didn’t know what to call myself or what to call my work. My first ring was inspired by my wife. When she was young, she wasn’t given a name, and her eldest brother called her Little Fly. So, I decided that was great. I called it Little Fly and it stuck.
Sharon: How old was your wife before she had a name?
Jeremy: I think she was three or four.
Sharon: When you present something to them and it’s finished, do you say to them, “Here’s the book. This is where it came from, and this is why it’s meaningful to you”? What do you tell them?
Jeremy: Yes, I come up with a design. I’ve spoken a lot with the client and they tell me about themselves. The majority of my clients are men and it’s a gift for their partners.
Sharon: Oh, that’s interesting.
Jeremy: Yeah, 90% of my jewels are for men for their partners. In the process, I speak with them and get an understanding of who they are. I understand what they need. After I produce a sketch and I’m showing it to them, then I don’t know. Something just kind of clicks. I’ve had people crying when I’ve made jewels.
A gentleman came to me. He said, “I want you to use the book ‘The Whale Rider,’ and I want you to make a ring for my wife.” I said, “O.K., great.” “When you come to London, could you come and meet her and give it to her?” I said, “Yes, of course.” So, we met in a restaurant. I came up, and they were already eating. I handed her the book, and she opened it and burst into tears. I was like, “Oh, no, she doesn’t like that. Is it because I’ve destroyed her favorite book?” But no, she was so excited that she loved it. She immediately connected with it. I don’t know how to fully describe it, what I do in relation to the client’s desire for a particular piece or colors or form. I’ve done it for so long, I just seem to get that feeling, that emotion from them. I seem to understand what they need, if that makes sense.
Sharon: It does make a lot of sense. Do you think men buy from you for their wives if they feel like their wives already have diamonds and pearls?
Jeremy: This is a completely different emotional level. Gentlemen come to me and say, “I’ve been looking for something different for my wife for years. I found you, and you need to make a piece for her. This is her favorite book.” I had a gentleman who wanted to propose to his wife. This couple had traveled around Australia for two years, and they had used a Lonely Planet travel book for it. Inside there were notes and rips. The book was falling apart, and he wanted to use this exact book for me to make a ring for him to propose to his wife.
I’ve been nervous other times about starting to cut a book, but this is the first time I had this intense emotion that I was cutting the book itself. You could go and buy a new copy for a few pounds, but this book was so emotional and so charged that it was very difficult for me to—I put it off for a long time. It sat on my desk. “Oh, I’ll do it later. I’ll do it later.” I did it, but sitting there with a scalpel—because I use a scalpel for most of my work—I sat there ready to cut the first page, and that was very difficult.
Sharon: Have you ever had a book that’s so dog-eared and worn that you haven’t been able to use it?
Jeremy: Yes, absolutely. I’ve explained that to the client. No one’s actually sent me one, but I have wanted to use a book because it’s so beautiful, but it’s falling apart. It would just fall apart while I’m creating the jewel.
Sharon: Can you put it back together if it’s worn?
Jeremy: No. I’ve actually kept them. If books fall apart, I put them on the shelf because I think they’re so beautiful as they are. I don’t want to repair them because they’ve had a life. I’d rather go and find another copy that is usable. My shelves are littered with these old books, hundreds of years old.
Sharon: Tell us about something you’re very proud of, the thing or one or two things you did with—let’s call it vintage book jewelry. I don’t know what else to call it.
Jeremy: That’s a very difficult question because I’m always happy about the pieces I’m working on at the moment. I’m proud of all my jewels. I’m super happy with all of them, but what gets me out of bed in the morning is the piece I’m making right now. As soon that one’s finished, I don’t think about it; I’m thinking about the next one.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Noel Guyomarc’h
Noel Guyomarc’h is the founder of Gallerie Noel Guyomarc’h. Established in 1996, the gallery exhibits outstanding collections of contemporary jewelry and objects created by Canadian and international artists. The only gallery in Canada dedicated specifically to contemporary jewelry, it has presented over 100 exhibitions in its space, which is considered to be one of the largest in the world. This internationally acclaimed gallery is a must for collectors, museum curators, and anyone who wants to discover and become acquainted with art jewelry.
Additional Resources:
Galerie Noel Guyomarc’h Website
Galerie Noel Guyomarc’h Instagram
Galerie Noel Guyomarc’h Facebook
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Although Canada’s art jewelry scene is relatively small, it has a devoted champion in Noel Guyomarc’h. Noel founded Galerie Noel Guyomarc'h in 1996 and has spent nearly 30 years bringing art jewelry to Montreal—and bringing Canadian jewelry to the world. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he chooses artists and exhibitions for his gallery; how he introduces art jewelry to first timers; and his hopes for the Canadian art jewelry scene. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, we’re talking to Noel Guyomarc’h in Montreal. He is the owner and founder of Galerie Noel Guyomarc'h. He wants people to see that artists create works of art and that these pieces, when they’re worn, it amplifies their significance. A relationship is established between the person who wears the piece itself and the viewer. He encourages visitors to cast a new eye on jewelry. Welcome back.
Do you travel a lot for your work? Do you go to New York City Jewelry Week or Munich Jewelry Week?
Noel: Yes, in fact, there are two fairs I’m doing now. There are two events. I’ve done the New York City Jewelry Week three times and I’m going to do my second edition at Munich.
Sharon: Oh, wow!
Noel: I’ve done it this past July.
Sharon: Munich, for those who don’t know, is one of the biggest art jewelry fairs in the world. How do you decide what to show there? Is it larger than your gallery?
Noel: No. Have you been already?
Sharon: Before Covid I went.
Noel: So, you know you have all the events in the city, then you have the fair and the Schmuck exhibition. All around it’s galleries, and I’m part of those galleries now. To select the work is quite challenging because you can’t represent the same work in other galleries, so we have to do a selection that you can show in fact. I’m showing some Canadians, some Americans and many international as well, but those are very much represented by the other galleries.
Sharon: Have you ever chosen work you thought you would show and then gone and seen—there’s the handwerk mesa, which is the back commercial place, and then there are a lot of galleries all over the city. Have you ever gone and thought you’d show something, and then you saw that somebody else was showing the same thing and you changed your mind?
Noel: No, it hasn’t happened yet, but it’s the artists who have to let me know if they’re going to show somewhere else. When I’m doing the handwerk mesa, I have no time to go to the city and look at what’s on display because we’re doing long hours from 9:00 in the morning to 7:00 p.m. It’s very long hours. I don’t have time to visit the other shows in town. We have to work with confidence with the artists. Otherwise it’s not fair, but it never happened. The artist can tell me, “O.K., I may show some work with this gallery in town. It’s not the same work.” It’s usually very different. It’s not the same connection, so it’s not the same work.
Sharon: It’s interesting. I always think that for a person who’s going to buy just a piece or two, it’s a place to see what’s going on in the world in terms of art jewelry or art things going on. Do you find that?
Noel: I went a few times to Munich before, but just as a visitor. Yeah, if you want to be aware of what is happening, you have to go there. It’s what I did, and I still feel the same. It’s very avant garde. If you want to see new ideas, new approaches, it’s the place to be and to go.
Sharon: Have you ever seen an artist there and you said, “Oh, that’s new. I think I’ll ask them if they’re represented or if I can carry them in the gallery.” Have you ever done that?
Noel: Oh yeah. I even took some shows. I think it was in 2019, I went and there was a show with Taiwanese artists. I said I wanted that show in my gallery because I found the treatment, the ideas, the way they were working with materials, everything, it was very interesting, and I said, “O.K.” At the end of the fair, we organized everything and I showed the work in my gallery.
I’m meeting a lot of new artists. Last year I met Nikita—I forget his name. He’s working with onyx, and he has done great work by carving onyx at Idar-Oberstein. I decided to show his work, and I brought it and showed it in New York City Jewelry Week. I was showing this work there. So, it happens sometimes that I meet new, fabulous artists.
Sharon: Who is it, Idar-Oberstein? That’s a gem-cutting center.
Noel: Exactly, yeah.
Sharon: He was cutting onyx there and then he incorporated it into jewelry?
Noel: No, they look a little bit industrial. It’s like tubes, but they’re quite large tubes carved in onyx. He built it to look like tubing, but it’s not only tubing, it’s also quiet and calm pieces. At first glance, they look like PVC tubes, but they’re made of onyx.
Sharon: Wow, that would be hard to do.
Noel: Yes.
Sharon: Why do you stay in the gallery world? I presume it’s difficult, but the gallerists I’ve talked to say it’s hard. Even though they like it, it’s hard. Why do you stay?
Noel: Why do I stay? I think I feel like I’m part of something bigger than just me. It’s to help the artist pursue what they really want to do, to have a space for them. I like the contact with people also. For me, it’s very important to know. Recently I met a young couple that are both living in the Montreal area. They jumped into the gallery by accident, and they found what they really liked. They were so pleased, and they never stopped coming back. Just to meet those people who are so open-minded and open to receive what I show them and explain to them, that’s the reason I like to do this shop.
I also like the idea of community, to be all together. I like when students have traditional training, but they come to the gallery and they’re curious. I can explain to them what’s happening in the field, because sometimes it’s not taught when contemporary jewelry is. Also, it changes, communication with people I really like.
Sharon: Do you find that people come from all over Canada or the U.S.?
Noel: All over the world.
Sharon: Yeah?
Noel: It’s very nice. Some people recently came from Australia. We talked and I said, “There are really nice galleries in Australia,” and they had never heard about them. It’s nice to share that as well, “O.K., you can go to Funaki Gallery. You can go to other galleries there.” They were shocked to learn that they have such places like mine, but in their own country. I think it’s nice to share that, to be all of us in the community and support each other. It’s nice.
Sharon: Let’s say I’m an artist. How do I come to you and say, “Will you carry my stuff?” Do I send a picture, or do I come and bring the actual material to you?
Noel: I like when they make an appointment with their pieces at the gallery. I like it when we have an appointment because we’re always working on projects, so we’re always busy. Now, I’m working on Munich because Munich is in three weeks, so I have much to do. After that, I have a show with Monica Brigger, a German artist who lives in France. We’re always working for the future. We’re always working on projects, so that’s why for the artist, when they come to the gallery, I like to be ready to receive them. So, it’s nice to get an appointment. For sure, it’s happened over 27 years. Some artists came and were wearing their pieces, and I said, “O.K., what’s that?” and talked to them, but I like when it’s organized.
Sharon: Have you seen an interest or understanding of art jewelry growing in Canada and/or around the world?
Noel: It’s pretty difficult to answer that question. I think in the past 40 years, there were many collectors and buyers, and I think all the things we’ve seen have been very dynamic over the past years. Now I think we are in a challenging time because there are fewer and fewer collectors, and I think it’s difficult to create new collectors. To pursue what the collectors did in the past and to add new collectors, it’s very difficult.
Sharon: Yeah, I think that’s something that all jewelry organizations talk about. How do you get young people involved? What do you think? Do you think it’s having a young collectors society? What’s the demographic of the people who buy from you?
Noel: There are a lot of people because even if I have a gallery, mainly the reason is because I have collectors from outside Canada, not Canadian collectors. I have some very important American collectors, and some are international as well. It’s very difficult because in Canada, there are just a few, not many, and they’re not buying every month. If they can buy three or four pieces a year, it’s already a lot. After that, to create new buyers like the couple I recently met, they’re buying quite a lot because I know they want to build a collection. I always give all the right information for them to have and to get in their collection. Also, the pieces I’ve sold are not just for collectors. They’re just people who like that specific piece and they’re ready to buy it. So, they can buy a piece every two or three years in their goal to build the collection.
Sharon: How do you build a collection? Is it buying a certain artist? Is it just buying and keeping things? How does one build a collection? How do you build a collector?
Noel: What a challenging question! Because there are two kinds of collectors. I have some collectors that are just buying pieces by an artist. They have pieces not just by one artist, but they focus on a few because they like their work, and they believe in their work. They have bought pieces from different periods of time and different pieces and different collections, and they’re building that collection because they like that work. They believe in what has been done and where this work is situated in the field and in the career of the artist.
I have collectors that just fall in love with pieces. They like to buy and add pieces in their collection because it’s very different. It’s an interesting way of expressing what the artist did, so they’re ready to buy that. They’re not focusing on a specific artist, but other work. But to build collectors, it’s another story. It’s very difficult.
Sharon: I know. It’s a hard question. It’s hard to find them. I understand that. I hear so many definitions, but I’ve wondered about it myself.
Noel: I think it’s different from painting and sculpture because in jewelry, we don’t buy for an investment, which is the case sometimes when you buy paintings or sculptures. They feel like, “O.K., over the years, it’s going to take a value.” We’re not sure that it will happen in this field, even if I can see an auction and think that some jewelry is selling very well and higher than what they were at the beginning. It’s a good sign. It’s a really good sign. I think you have to share your patience for that, and I think if there is somebody who likes it or receives it very well, you can mention that you are starting a collection.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Whether it’s jewelry or art or sculpture, I think of a collector as somebody who buys and says, “I like this artist’s work. I’m not necessarily going to wear it, but I like what they did,” and then they take it home and put it in a drawer and never take it out again. So, I don’t know what a collector is. Is a collector somebody who buys something, or is it somebody who collects because, like you’re saying, they want to be able to show a progression or “He did this 20 years ago and this is what he is doing today”?
Noel: Yeah, it’s difficult. I know that some very important collectors—you interviewed Susan Cummins not a long time ago. She’s a major collector, but she’s never worn a piece of jewelry.
Sharon: Yes, I know.
Noel: And she said, “They’re in my drawers,” but she’s a very important collector. So, it’s interesting to see that. Is it the right way to initiate people for contemporary jewelry and to start to collect? Because I think we have to show them. We have to show how they can be worn, what’s happening when you wear them, because that’s your behavior, the way you start a communication with others. Also, the fact that you’re wearing a piece makes it different. So, is it the right way to introduce people to contemporary jewelry? I don’t know. It’s difficult to say that I like when pieces are worn, not just kept in the drawer.
Sharon: Let’s say somebody comes in and doesn’t know what your jewelry is and they buy a piece. Let’s say it’s their first piece. Maybe they have an intention to buy more. They don’t know if they will or they won’t buy more, but do you talk to them about a collection or say, “This is a great way to start a collection”?
Noel: Yeah, I always mention that. I think for my 20th anniversary, I got some written notes, one from Susan Cummins, one from—
Sharon: Notes?
Noel: Just some words about the fact that it was my 20-year anniversary.
Sharon: Like testimonials?
Noel: Yes, a horrible word.
Sharon: O.K., and Susan Cummins is a very important collector.
Noel: She wrote something about the collection, and then I put it on my wall so people could read the different testimonials I’ve received on the walls in the gallery. Just the fact that I have that, it’s always a very nice way to introduce people. “Oh, O.K., jewelry can be collected.” It’s a step. Through that, I think it’s nice, because I can’t explain much more than those words on the wall. Then people are thinking much more about what they are planning to buy.
Sharon: Whether they are planning to buy a ring to match what they already have, or to buy another piece by the artist? Either way?
Noel: Yes, either way.
Sharon: Not to put you on the spot, but who else? You mentioned Susan Cummins. Who is a big collector in Canada that you can talk about, or anywhere in the world who you say is a big collector?
Noel: There’s Deedie Rose. I don’t know if you know Deedie.
Sharon: Deedie Rose in Texas, yes.
Noel: She buys very often from the gallery and her sister and daughter-in-law, Catherine, as well. Those are the two that really support the gallery. They really like what I have. From time to time there are other collectors for sure, like Susan Bentley.
Sharon: Do they come in person, or do they come online?
Noel: Online.
Sharon: Online. That’s interesting. I don’t get to come to Montreal that much, but I hope I can get to see your gallery because I know how many people are going online now. Thank you very much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.
Noel: Thank you very much for the invite. Thank you, Sharon.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Noel Guyomarc’h
Noel Guyomarc’h is the founder of Gallerie Noel Guyomarc’h. Established in 1996, the gallery exhibits outstanding collections of contemporary jewelry and objects created by Canadian and international artists. The only gallery in Canada dedicated specifically to contemporary jewelry, it has presented over 100 exhibitions in its space, which is considered to be one of the largest in the world. This internationally acclaimed gallery is a must for collectors, museum curators, and anyone who wants to discover and become acquainted with art jewelry.
Additional Resources:
Galerie Noel Guyomarc’h Website
Galerie Noel Guyomarc’h Instagram
Galerie Noel Guyomarc’h Facebook
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Although Canada’s art jewelry scene is relatively small, it has a devoted champion in Noel Guyomarc’h. Noel founded Galerie Noel Guyomarc'h in 1996 and has spent nearly 30 years bringing art jewelry to Montreal—and bringing Canadian jewelry to the world. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he chooses artists and exhibitions for his gallery; how he introduces art jewelry to first timers; and his hopes for the Canadian art jewelry scene. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, we’re talking to Noel Guyomarc’h in Montreal. He is the owner and founder of Galerie Noel Guyomarc'h. He wants people to see that artists create works of art and that these pieces, when they’re worn, it amplifies their significance. A relationship is established between the person who wears the piece itself and the viewer. He encourages visitors to cast a new eye on jewelry, which art jewelry really does. We will hear about all of this as well as how he came to operate a gallery and what he thinks about art jewelry in Canada. Noel, welcome to the program.
Noel: Thank you. It’s nice to be here.
Sharon: We just had a long talk about how to say his name because there’s an apostrophe before the H. Guyomarc’h. So, tell us about your jewelry journey.
Noel: I started about 35 years ago in Montreal. I was working in a jewelry place which showed fashion, some art jewelry and some antiques from Asia. It’s there where I started to be more aware of jewelry, but there was no contemporary jewelry or art jewelry, a very small collection, in fact. That place closed, and I decided to support local artists. I said, “O.K., I should open mine,” and it’s what I did 27 years ago.
Sharon: Wow! That’s a long time. You were the only place around. I only know of one other place in Canada that has art jewelry.
Noel: Yeah, since the past 25 years, many places have closed. Now I think we have two galleries in Canada which are presenting art jewelry, so it’s not much. The other gallery, Lapine Gallery, presents only Canadian artists, but all different crafts, not only jewelry. My gallery is only dedicated to contemporary jewelry.
Sharon: Oh, my gosh!
Noel: There is not much in Canada. It’s really sad.
Sharon: When you look at a map, it’s a big area.
Noel: Oh, yeah.
Sharon: We’re a smaller area on the West Coast, but we don’t have as much as the East Coast does. Tell us a little more. Would people be surprised if they found out this is what you’re doing today? Were you artistic? Did you make jewelry?
Noel: From the people who knew me a long time ago, yes, they would be surprised because it was not what I was planning to do in my life. I was working in administration. I’m originally from France, and I moved to Canada 25 years ago. My background was more in economy and administration, so nothing to do with art or even jewelry. There were never jewelers in my family. When I moved to Canada, I met people who were making jewelry. In a way, I started to be more introduced to jewelry.
Sharon: Tell us about your gallery and how you introduce people to it, because you have very alternative materials in terms of jewelry. How do you introduce people?
Noel: I like them to come in. They know already that there’s something different because the front windows always display unusual work. So, when they come in, they are surprised by the diversity. They look at things, and when I see that there is some question in their eyes, I go to them and start to explain the work they’re looking at. That way, they look at all the works in the gallery differently. Sometimes you’re more attracted by one specific thing because of the colors, because of the materials, because of the idea. So, the fact that I explain the work, they understand that all the other works I have at the gallery are in the same group. They all have a specific meaning, a specific way of being done, of being worn, of being realized by artists. It’s interesting, the effect.
Sharon: Are people attracted because it’s work by artists or because it’s just different jewelry?
Noel: They’re curious because the format, the colors, the treatment of materials are very unusual. They’re just surprised. It’s funny because there are two sides of showing such jewelry. You have people who are curious; they want to learn more. There are others that say it’s not jewelry because it’s too stylized. It’s very interesting to see the two behaviors in front of such work, in fact.
Sharon: Do you have people who come in and say, “Oh, this looks interesting,” and they walk out with something they never experienced before?
Noel: Exactly, yeah. Very often it’s not the first time they’re going to buy something. They need to get used to looking at them, to get used to eventually wearing it. It’s a process. It’s a work in progress, and a working process as well because they have to get used to such pieces. It’s very interesting.
Sharon: Are most of your customers women?
Noel: I can say yes, 75% are female and 25% are men.
Sharon: 25% is a pretty large amount.
Noel: Yeah, I don’t know what’s been happening the past 15 years. It’s like the men started to wear jewelry or they started to buy for their wives, but they want to buy something they like more than their husband or wife will like. It’s very interesting, but it’s not the same. I don’t know. The past 15 years I’ve seen a difference. Before, people wanted to buy something to seduce their wives or husbands, and now they’re acknowledging—because of me, maybe; I don’t know—but they want to be sure that the piece pleases them before it will please their wife or husband. It’s a slightly different way of buying, which I like.
Sharon: Were you a jeweler? Did you ever make anything?
Noel: I took some jewelry classes before I opened the gallery, but I realized that was not for me. That was very fast. After a few years, I realized that no, it’s not for me to make them. I had ideas, but I didn’t have the patience for the making aspect. I was surrounded by talented people, so why do something I will not be pleased with? But it was a good thing because I learned many techniques that way, so when I look at some work, I know the quality as well. I can see if it’s well-made or not because I took those classes.
Sharon: What do you consider art jewelry? What do you say when people come in and say, “What’s art jewelry?”
Noel: I try to explain that it’s a result of a vision, of questioning, of reflection by one artist about what jewelry can be. It can be inspired by real jewelry, by the environment, by the field as well. No matter the techniques of the material used, it’s the expression, the idea. The main goal is for them to express themselves.
Sharon: Do you always say it’s art jewelry by jewelers, or do you say it’s jewelry by artists?
Noel: Most of the time, I say by artists. That’s interesting because now—it’s not new—there are some people that were in different fields and they started to make jewelry, but they don’t have the background of it. Just the fact that they use different kinds of materials, they don’t need to have that goldsmith or metalsmith training. They choose jewelry to express themselves. Sometimes they know silver or precious materials. So, it’s more the artists than jewelers. It can be jewelry artists, which means they’ve had the training, and artists.
Sharon: Can you look at a piece and tell if it’s somebody who has classical training, but then started to make jewelry with paper or plastic?
Noel: Oh yeah, we can feel it. But when you have many training experiences, it gives you freedom to do what you want. I think it’s nice when you have good training, for sure.
Sharon: What was your catalyst for starting the gallery? Why did you decide, after working in these other places, to start a gallery?
Noel: I worked in that place for five years, so it’s where I learned a lot of things. Slowly, that place was showing more artistic types of work. Among those jewelry artists there, there were a few that I started to be very close to. Then the place I was working at closed because of the economic situation, and I said to those artists, “I’ve got to open something in a few years to support you and encourage you.” It’s what I did after maybe three years that the place where I was working closed. I opened my gallery to support a few Canadian artists at the beginning, but it has grown very fast. We started to invite artists from everywhere and curate shows.
Sharon: How do you curate shows? How do you decide somebody warrants a whole exhibition or if it’s a group showing? Tell us what you have now and what’s upcoming, that sort of thing.
Noel: Sometimes it’s curated shows. I did a few with invited artists or asked curators to do shows for the gallery. Sometimes, I’m doing a selection of artists because of their work. Sometimes it’s from countries. I have done a show last year with Japanese artists. I selected seven with different backgrounds and different aesthetics, but I found it interesting to get them all together. Some of them have been trained in Japan and some outside of Japan, so the results were very different. Now, I have a show called “Animal, Vegetable, Mineral,” and that show has been curated by Melanie Egan. She’s the head of the Craft and Design department from the Harbourfront Centre in Toronto.
Sharon: What is her name?
Noel: Her name is Melanie Egan. She’s the head of the Craft and Design department at the Harbourfront in Toronto. She curated that show. It was presented last September. I was part of the project in a way because she wanted that show to travel to Montreal. I said yes, but the show was really big, so I did a short selection of work because we don’t have the same space, even if my space is big. It was very interesting to see why she selected specific work. It was about Nordic work. She invited people from Sweden, Norway, Iceland and from Canada, different places from Canada. It was a very interesting show.
Sharon: As you were going through to decide what to take from the show, since you couldn’t show everything she had, how did you decide?
Noel: It was more simple because sometimes she had similar items. I said, “O.K., instead of six necklaces, I’m going to bring four over because I don’t have space for more.” They were by an artist from Finland. She has done huge, huge, huge pieces. They’re not wearable art pieces. The dimensions are oversize. It’s always more jewelry for the wall than jewelry for the body. So, it was big, big, pieces, and I picked the bracelet because it was three meters by two meters big. It was very big. Can you imagine if the bracelet was that size, what was in that piece? So, I just took the bracelet.
Sharon: Did you look at the pieces and how they were made?
Noel: Yes, I went to the opening in Toronto to look at all the work, to do the selection, to make the right selection for the gallery.
Sharon: What do you consider the right selection? What will sell?
Noel: Most of the pieces were not for sale because the Harbourfront Centre is a nonprofit organization. They invited the artists and got a grant to bring everything in. So, I have done that show in Montreal, but I’m not supposed to sell because all the pieces have to be returned because of customs issues. Finally, I sold a few so the artist had to ship them back to me, but at the beginning it was not a project to sell the work. But I had demand, so it was nice. It was great. It was a great turnout.
Sharon: What’s your favorite thing to sell? What do you like most about art jewelry? Do you like brooches? Men like brooches—I call them brooches. When I think of a man wearing jewelry who’s not wearing a leather bracelet, I think of the brooches I see men wear, with lapel pins on their lapel. What do you like and what do you sell?
Noel: I have a lot of brooches at the gallery because I like the format. It’s very nice for the artist. They like to work in that format because they can express themselves. They know much more challenging things. A necklace can’t be too heavy, earrings not too heavy, well-balanced, rings not too big. There are always questions of sizes as well, so it’s a challenge. The brooches are a very rare form to express themselves. So, I like them, but I don’t sell many brooches. It’s not the best-selling item, but I have a lot because I like them.
The best seller is necklaces and earrings and rings. Those three are very good, but brooches, I’m wearing them a lot. Slowly I succeeded to sell a few because I’m wearing them. When people come in, it’s like, “I never thought about wearing brooches,” because they feel that it’s not contemporary enough. The perception is like their grandmothers were wearing brooches, not them. But it’s changing a little bit.
Sharon: I guess when I see art jewelry exhibitions, I always think of brooches. You only do one. With earrings, you have to make sure they match and that sort of thing. It seems better for an artist to do a brooch.
Noel: Yeah, but it’s a piece that can encapsulate very nice ideas. I think that’s why it’s a favorite that I like to do. But sometimes, like I said, it’s not always the best seller.
Sharon: That leads me to the next question. They say that having a gallery, no matter what kind of gallery but especially an art jewelry gallery, is something of a passion. It’s not because you want to make a lot of money; it’s a passion thing. What do you think about that?
Noel: It’s absolutely true. I’m pleased because I’ve succeeded to make a living from it, but for sure, it’s not where you’re making a lot of money. Even the six or seven first years of the gallery, I had a job outside the gallery just to get an income. It was very challenging at the beginning. Now, I’m glad because it’s balancing well, but I do it just because I’m very passionate about jewelry and I like to show the artists’ work. I like to present it, but the return is not much. The return comes from the artists or when you meet someone. You like the work and buy it, and that means that you have done a good job.
From the beginning, I didn’t want to have debts by running a gallery. For me, it was not the purpose. For me, it has to pay for everything, and as long as I can gain a little income from that, I feel O.K. But it’s true that we have to be passionate about the selection of work as well. I think for the gallery, I’m not doing easy sales pieces. I always try to challenge myself and challenge the artists themselves, so I have to keep motivated to do it. At times, it’s very challenging.
Sharon: Do you ever say to an artist, “This would be wonderful if you made it pink or blue or you added this,” or do you just let them do it?
Noel: I don’t want to be behind them and say, “You should do this because you’re going to sell them easier.” No, my job is to create wonderful settings. I really trust them. I believe them. I don’t want to influence that.
Sharon: Do you see a difference in art jewelry between the U.S. and Canada or the rest of the world?
Noel: Yes, there are some differences. It’s the fact that we don’t have a long story here about art jewelry. It’s not that old. And it’s the fact that there are not so many schools as well in Canada, and the fact that we don’t have so many galleries to show those works, I think it’s—what can I say?—it’s very challenging for the artist here. So, they’re not making the same type of work. Sometimes they’re doing a more commercial type of work and one other kind of avant garde of work, but there are not enough galleries to show their work. I think if there were more, it would be more motivating. I’m almost the only one here, and I can’t say yes to everybody.
It’s going better for the jewelry fields because there are some platforms, like the one from Toronto. There are also some events like the New York City Jewelry Week. There are a lot of Canadians going there and going to Europe as well. There are some fairs where the artists can go so they can show their work, not always through a gallery, but they can organize by themselves or pop up at events to promote themselves. I think that helps for the creation as well.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Carole Tanenbaum
Carole Tanenbaum has been collecting costume jewelry for over twenty-five years resulting in an unparalleled collection of over 30,000 pieces dating from the Victorian period to today’s collectibles. Carole Tanenbaum Vintage Collection is one of North America’s premiere collection of vintage costume jewelry. Every piece in the collection has been hand-selected with an eye for design, creativity and exceptional workmanship. The collection integrates vintage costume jewelry as wearable works of art into the fashion world.
As a world-renowned collector, Carole has given a number of lectures on vintage costume jewelry at museums, universities, and social clubs. The collection continues to be featured in a multitude of fashion publications, and film and television productions.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When it comes to vintage costume jewelry, few people can match Carole Tanenbaum’s passion. Her 40,000-piece collection covers the history of costume jewelry from the Victorian era to the 90s, along with some emerging contemporary designers thrown in for good measure. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her interest in Schreiner jewelry; how she wrote her two books on costume jewelry; and what she looks for when adding to her collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Carole Tanenbaum speaking to us from Toronto. She and her husband have been collectors of everything, including vintage costume jewelry, for years. She herself has written two books on the subject of vintage costume jewelry. “Fabulous Fakes: A Passion for Vintage Costume Jewelry” is the first one, and the newest one is a book on Schreiner jewelry, “Schreiner: Masters of Twentieth-Century Costume Jewelry.” Each week, she holds an auction of vintage costume jewelry, and she’ll tell us all about that. Welcome back.
That’s really interesting. It sounds like you’ve looked at a million and one pieces. I was under the impression that your auctions were weekly. When I say get rid of it—if you have 40,000 pieces—
Carole: No, but what I do occasionally is deaccession my earlier pieces through a couple of the national and international auctions I trust. I do that because if they’re sitting in my drawers and not doing anything, it’s not that I lost respect for them, it’s that I want other people to enjoy them. So, I would say twice a year, I have an auction at Ripley’s Auction, I have an auction here at Waddington’s Auction. When we were selling our toys, because we’re at an age now where you have to start thinking about where these things are going, I did it at Miller and Miller in Canada, a wonderful auction house. Those are the types of auctions and that’s the reason why I do them, but they’re only occasional. I always post them on my different sites so the public is aware of them.
Sharon: Where do you find the pieces you do buy? Just looking around and going to these places on the outskirts?
Carole: First of all, we are very fortunate because people know my name. They know about me, so they have offered pieces on many occasions. I’m even buying back pieces from people who don’t wear them anymore and want them passed back to me, but I would say that’s just by happenstance. We love antiquing, so it doesn’t matter whether we find or we don’t find. It’s getting much harder, as I told you, because there are fewer outlets. A lot of the small antique dealers went under and don’t have places where they can show their pieces other than the net. I do think the net now is the best place to look outside of shopping for them, but if you’re shopping for them, don’t have high hopes, because the very high end is being bought out by savvy collectors.
Sharon: I guess that’s something that crossed my mind. Sometimes, like you say, the pieces can go for thousands of dollars. Have you ever overpaid, do you think? Do you just love something so much that you paid more than you thought you could at some point?
Carole: I wouldn’t use the word “overpaid.” I would use the word “I paid more than I expected to,” because if I want a piece, I get it. I haven’t been wrong so far, but if I’m wrong, so be it. I feel it’s the right way to think about it. If you can afford it and you purchased it at a higher price and you got it, that’s fine, because who knows what it’s going to be in the future? That was also a good lesson for me. A couple of pieces I really overdid in my purchase are worth four times the amount today than when I originally bought them.
Sharon: Tell us the story about the books, then.
Carole: What really started my business career was at the very beginning of the 80s, I was showing my pieces in trunk shows in hotels and for charities. I wasn’t really a business, but in about 1990, I pitched my collection to Holt Renfrew in Toronto, the equivalent of Neiman Marcus. There was a wonderful director there at the time who I pitched to. He was quiet and he was thinking about it. I wanted to do a trunk show because I wanted to expose people to costume jewelry, and this gentleman said, “Carole, I’m sorry. I won’t do a trunk show, but I’m going to give you a department.” They gave me a department at Holt Renfrew, and they branded me Carole Tanenbaum Vintage Collection.
In 2006, when I really had a large following, I figured they deserved to see what I feel is the best of my collection. That’s how I started “Fabulous Fakes” through Madison Press, which is no longer around. In four months’ time, the book was sold out. In a year’s time, the book was sold out internationally. People were starving for visuals, and it was kind of a tabletop book. It was my selection from my personal collection. I loved doing that, but I wasn’t interested in doing it again.
Then, I saw that I really have to educate the audience about Schreiner because nothing has ever been written about Schreiner other than a paragraph or two. Him being my favorite designer, I wanted to do a book on him, but I couldn’t find anybody to do the research because he was kind of illusive. He was a very small manufacturer. But a person who was working for me as part of our outfit said to me one day, “Why don’t you do a book on Schreiner?” and I said, “I’ve been thinking about it for years, but I don’t want to do another picture book. I want to do a book where people can learn, because I want to show them what to look for with many examples.” At this point, I had about 400 pieces of Schreiner. She said, “I’ll do the research. I love to do research,” and I gave her the commission.
She went off to New York. She went to the public library there, and she saw a Schreiner address in the outskirts of New York. She knocked on the door of this person, and it turned out to be the grandson of Henry Schreiner and they invited her in. She’s a charming woman, Eve Townsend. She’s the one who did all the research for the book. She’s a terrific gal. They loved her. She had repeated visits to them, the only person who was really permitted to spend time with them. She’s the one that gave all the knowledge to the book “Schreiner.”
Now we’re completely sold out, but I just reprinted. The reprints are coming out in February. I was selling it for $125 because I was selling my personal stash, but the Chinese community, who are very active in the vintage world, were purchasing the book in China for $400. Now people will be able to buy it again for $65. I’m very proud of that because it was a small quantity that I did last time and it’s another small quantity this time.
Sharon: There was a large gap between the two books. Did you have it with the picture books and say, “That’s it. I’m not doing another book”?
Carole: I wasn’t interested in doing the picture book, but I felt it was my duty to my clients whom I was educating along the way to show them what great pieces are. I had a wonderful publisher. They were terrific to work with, and they laid it out in a way that people could understand the design and comparison to others. I was very happy I did it, but I had no desire to do another one until Eve came around and said, “Carole, we’re going to do the book.” That’s how the Schreiner came into being.
Sharon: How do you define vintage costume jewelry?
Carole: The actual definition for vintage is 40 to 100 years old. Antique is from 100 to 300 years old, but in my operation, we sell from the Victorian era to the 80s and 90s. That’s our cutoff. Now we’re starting to show contemporary designers who I think are valid for future collecting, but that’s Carole Tanenbaum Vintage’s decision, to focus on that area of time.
Sharon: What do you say if somebody says it’s not real? I have people say to me, “It’s not real. It’s fake.”
Carole: It’s a great question. I say to them, “Yes, it is real. It’s real vintage. If you handed me a $10,000 piece of gemstone and showed me a wonderful piece of vintage for $10,000, I would probably purchase the vintage because the vintage pieces have historical value to me as well.” I have always been asked that question, Sharon. It’s always been sort of a bone of contention because I really had to educate people that vintage costume jewelry is one category, like apples and oranges. Gemstone is another. They both happen to be jewelry, but they’re both valid in their categories.
Sharon: Are there people who collect the Schreiner and another who collect the Monet?
Carole: Yeah.
Sharon: So, you know who.
Carole: Yeah. I don’t know who, but they come to me and say, “Do you have any Monets?” I love Monet. Actually, he’s one of the best kept secrets on the market now because his prices haven’t risen in the same way that others have. I would say, “I’ll show you a tray of them,” and then my staff would photograph a tray and they would go, “Oh.” At least it introduces them to more than one. That’s how we operate our business. People do come to us with very specific requests. Most of the time, we can show them examples of that. Other times, I’m not interested in the designer, and I have very few of them. We refer them to somebody else I know in the field who might have them.
Sharon: I’m learning a lot here. Schreiner is a person and a company. Monet is not a person; it’s a company. It’s interesting that they were originally people.
Carole: They were people, exactly. People with very good eyes.
Sharon: That’s very interesting. How did you come to be in business? Like you said, you didn’t have to go into business. How did you start a business?
Carole: Through Holt, that’s how I started my business. I had no idea they would add me as a counter, as real estate, or that they would have me for three weeks because I said I wanted to expose people. I thought they would have me for three weeks and then be gone, but he said to me—and it’s a very important thing I pride myself on—he said, “The way you are different from other people who have approached me is that you have a singular eye, and your collection is curated by that eye. I like your eye and I know your family were collectors. That’s why I am taking you on.”
That’s a good point, because I happen to have the benefit of coming from a family of great collectors, people who have a specific eye and all the pieces they collect are from that eye, and the pieces they collect happen to be very good pieces. That’s a real attribute to their inventory and their collection. Other people buy a lot of 50 pieces and go through it to see which ones are sellable. Every piece in my collection I pick personally. I have a wonderful staff and they know the collection, but I feel that my collection is known for my eye. I feel a responsibility in that sense.
Sharon: That’s interesting because different definitions of a good eye come to mind. I have a friend who’s not a dealer, but dealers have told her she has a dealer’s eye. She can spot the thing in the back of a cabinet. My father-in-law was a great collector of art. I didn’t like any of it until I saw it framed, and then it was like, “Oh my God, that’s wonderful!” I don’t think I have an eye. That’s the thing.
Carole: You don’t know. Are you a collector?
Sharon: I’m one of those who has a lot. I wouldn’t say I collect anything. Yes, I don’t collect anything.
Carole: You have an eye for everything you collect. If you put it together, somebody in a field that understands it would say, “There’s a certain rhythm there. There’s a certain continuity with what you collect.” Your clothing is of a certain area. You’re either conservative or out there, and then you choose things that go with your aesthetic, whatever it is. You might not think you have an eye, but you have a very specific eye. We don’t know what it is, but you might look at it that way and find out what it is.
Sharon: Somebody who does collect said to me exactly what you said. If they put it all together, they can see what I liked or what I collected. You collect the Schreiner, let’s say, but I don’t. I don’t have something like that. What happens when somebody comes to you and says, “I have a fabulous outfit. I have a great dress, but it needs something. I’ve looked at all the contemporary stuff and there’s nothing that pleases me. What do you have?”
Carole: Actually, that’s a good part of my business. We do bridal. We do the bride’s parents. We do women who are having an event in their family. We do movies. We do television. We’re set up in our operation to meet the needs of almost anybody who asks for it. If a stylist comes in here and they’re working for a 20s movie, we know exactly what to bring out to her. We do a prep for it. She comes in and goes through areas we know we have.
Don’t forget we have about 40,000 pieces, but we organize it in such a way that it’s very easy for them to see. It’s very easy for us to accommodate almost every request of ours. We love dealing personally, by the way, because it brings out the child in many people who are a little constricted. You get a sense of their personality, and you pick accordingly. It’s very easy for us. We love to do that.
Sharon: Do people come to you and say, “I have a fabulous “real” pin, but it’s not enough. It doesn’t have the wow factor”? Do you bring them something else?
Carole: We show them what we feel they could like. Don’t forget, Sharon, if somebody comes to us, they’ll see about 20 pieces. There’s always a piece they love. Nobody has ever left us without buying something because we’re trained in that. My staff is trained to understand the person when they’re telling them what they need.
Sharon: How do people find out about your operation? I stumbled on it. I didn’t realize it was so large.
Carole: We’ve been in business for about 40 years now, but my name is out there because I’ve been in the field. I’m very generous to other dealers; they’re very generous to me. The public knows me through the various clubs I belong to. I belong to the Sherman Club, who’s a Canadian designer. I belong to the Schreiner Club and various clubs. You show pictures of what you have, so they see what I have and love it.
I don’t let a lot of people into the house because I don’t feel safe with everything I have here, but we do a lot of business on the iPad. My staff will get a tray together, put together a professional photograph and show the person who’s looking, and they’ll always be able to pick something from it. Also, don’t forget I’ve been in a lot of magazines and newspaper articles. Those public stands are very important for me. A lot of the stylists use my pieces and my story to inspire.
Sharon: I think the big leap that a lot of dealers or people who sold jewelry had to make—I’ve heard people say, “I have to hold it. I have to see it. I have to feel the piece of jewelry to know it, to see if I want it.” Have you had that? Have you faced that?
Carole: Locally people have asked if they could come down after we showed them the pieces. Generally, if we know where they’re coming from, we permit them to come up and have fun, but internationally, no. I have a very large Asian clientele and they buy strictly from photos. I have a very large Russian population in Paris and Italy. I think they’re savvier than the average collector, so they know exactly what they want. It’s very easy to satisfy them. With the Asian community, which actually have been voracious collectors over the last five years, they’re very specific with what they want. There’s only a handful of designers they love, but when we get new pieces in, we know who they are.
Sharon: There’s a handful of pieces from designers that Asians or Russians know they want. You mentioned you also have some emerging designers. Who do you think the emerging designers are? Are they costume or are they real?
Carole: Never real. I’m really not in the gemstone business. But there are emerging designers or contemporary designers that people don’t know about, such as Rafael of Montreal, Vidal of Montreal, Thomas Mann, who has a charming eye and does really playful but sophisticated jewelry. Colette Harmon is another emerging artist.
There are other old-timers that still have not made the money mark yet, such as Avon and Art and Fluenza and Napier, whom there’s a wonderful telephone book-size book on, yet people haven’t really discovered him yet. The prices are very reasonable. He was a wonderful designer of the 50s, and he’s somebody who isn’t really there yet. He’s dead, but he deserves to be recognized.
Then there are areas of collecting, like copper. Some of the great studio pieces in copper, whenever I see them, I grab them. I grab wood pieces that were designed at the same time as Bakelite. The wood pieces are really like folk art; they’re wonderful. Rarely are they more than $125. I bought them for like $40. Each one of them I wouldn’t trade for my three $1,000 pieces because they’re really charming. So, there are areas you can start buying without worrying about.
Sharon: Carole, thank you so much for being with us today. We’ve learned so much. I know I have learned a lot. I’m ready to go, “Oh my God, they’re overlooked so much.”
Carole: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it, Sharon.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Carole Tanenbaum
Carole Tanenbaum has been collecting costume jewelry for over twenty-five years resulting in an unparalleled collection of over 30,000 pieces dating from the Victorian period to today’s collectibles. Carole Tanenbaum Vintage Collection is one of North America’s premiere collection of vintage costume jewelry. Every piece in the collection has been hand-selected with an eye for design, creativity and exceptional workmanship. The collection integrates vintage costume jewelry as wearable works of art into the fashion world.
As a world-renowned collector, Carole has given a number of lectures on vintage costume jewelry at museums, universities, and social clubs. The collection continues to be featured in a multitude of fashion publications, and film and television productions.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When it comes to vintage costume jewelry, few people can match Carole Tanenbaum’s passion. Her 40,000-piece collection covers the history of costume jewelry from the Victorian era to the 90s, along with some emerging contemporary designers thrown in for good measure. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her interest in Schreiner jewelry; how she wrote her two books on costume jewelry; and what she looks for when adding to her collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Carole Tanenbaum speaking to us from Toronto. She and her husband have been collectors of everything, including vintage costume jewelry, for years. She herself has written two books on the subject of vintage costume jewelry. “Fabulous Fakes: A Passion for Vintage Costume Jewelry” is the first one, and the newest one is a book on Schreiner jewelry, “Schreiner: Masters of Twentieth-Century Costume Jewelry.” She must think highly of that. Each week, she holds an auction of vintage costume jewelry, and she’ll tell us all about that. Besides that, we’ll also learn why she focused on vintage costume jewelry and everything they collect, what she looks for in terms of evaluating a piece of vintage jewelry, whether it’s for her own collection or to sell, and how you too can get involved. Carole, welcome to the program.
Carole: Thank you for inviting me. It’s good to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. You collect everything.
Carole: We are collectors of many things. We collect photos. We collect vintage toys, African sculpture. But how you know I loved to antique; we still do. When we were in London in the 70s, I came upon a collection of fantasy jewelry, jewelry that wasn’t gemstone, but it had the most beautiful vision to me aesthetically. I was hooked, and I bought about 20 pieces at that time. I always know when it will go forward, so it wasn’t just a one-shot deal that started me in collecting.
Sharon: Had you been attracted to glittery things or colorful things before that?
Carole: I love fashion, and I’ve always loved the wow factor in fashion. The collection I saw was large pieces, so immediately I responded to it as things I could wear and love and feel really shi-shi in them. I bought the pieces I loved. There were about 50 pieces, and I was very discerning. I always know what I want to have. That was my first experience of hundreds. I have about 40,000 pieces.
Sharon: Did you buy the first 20 or 50 from the same person, or was this from several people?
Carole: No, it was from the same person. In the 70s, vintage costume jewelry wasn’t really a collectable. It was a throwaway, so there weren’t many dealers to choose from. This one person who had them really had the only great pieces of jewelry in the whole show, other than gemstone jewelry. I was lucky that I was able to focus on this one person. I still have a couple of those pieces in my private collection.
Sharon: Wow! Did you recognize right away that it was being ignored and that it was going to be collectable?
Carole: No, I didn’t care. For me, they were objects d’art. I never am influenced by what’s in and what’s out. I trust my eye. When I did see this collection, I knew I had to have them, that they were beautiful and highly collectable despite what was happening universally.
Sharon: Did you own, I’ll say, “regular” gems? Was this a way to wear something and if you list it, it was not a big deal?
Carole: It was always a big deal for me. Everything we collect, whether it was $2 or $20,000, has the same weight aesthetically to us. My husband has bought me some wonderful, real Deco jewelry, big, chokey necklaces, but gemstone. I always loved those because it was still my aesthetic. But when I started this collection, it showed that these pieces have the same wow and the same effect on me as gemstone, and I started looking and researching. Very few books were written on the subject in the 70s, but I started looking at the pieces that were being offered by the theater, by movies, by starlets, etc. I realized it’s a field I wanted to start collecting. I realized that very early on after I bought these pieces.
Sharon: Did you have the support of your husband that this is art?
Carole: I always have the support of my husband. I’m a very lucky woman. Actually, we share our loves of whatever we collect. He’s a great collector of Daguerreotypes. Whenever we’re at the antique shows, I hunt for those as well as for what I love. We always share our collections as one collection. In fact, Howie will run around the show, or used to run around the shows, and he would come over to me, “Carole, come here. I have to show you something at this other dealer’s showcase.” I would go there and I would love what he picked.
Sharon: So, you don’t go to as many shows as you used to, it sounds like.
Carole: Since Covid, I have to tell you it’s very small pickings. I go to whatever is available, but now the market has changed completely. Whenever I can, I go to shows. I go to shows in the outskirts of New York, sometimes to the New York Metropolitan Show and some of the local shows here. Oftentimes I get lucky, but I don’t get the breadth of pieces I had earlier on.
Sharon: Since Covid, I found I’ve been really hungry for shows. I go to whatever there is. Do you find that a lot of people have moved online?
Carole: That’s a very good question, Sharon, because now, the way to buy vintage costume jewelry is on Facebook. There are about 40 different people who have weekly shows. I don’t have weekly shows of that auction. I don’t have the patience for it. It’s not a part of my business, but I go to the shows that are online. There are people who went to a country show to show their fare and don’t have an outlet, so they’re doing it at their home. Oftentimes you can get very lucky with that. They sometimes don’t know what they have, and since it’s an auction, you might be lucky. For people who are starting now, it’s a great way to develop a collection, Sharon, because you have the world at your shoulders.
Sharon: Let me back up. You said there weren’t many books on the subject. Is that what brought you to write a book about it?
Carole: No, that’s a different story. When you start asking me about how I became a businesswoman, that’s one of the ways I started. I’ll tell you about that journey.
Sharon: Do you find that the jewelry in Canada and Toronto is different than what you find elsewhere in New York or when you’re at smaller shows?
Carole: It’s on a lower scale, number one. You’re less able to find something in Canada—although the search is always as important to me as the sale—than you would be in New York or Boston or any of the big cities. Oftentimes, I will go to a major city, rent a car and go to the peripheral areas. There you can find antique stores and go in, and you know you’re going to find that masterpiece. The search is a lot of fun. When you find something, of course it’s glorious.
Sharon: I bet it would be. That’s interesting. I never thought of Boston. I always think of the east coast as New York and the south. They say there’s nothing out in Los Angeles or on the west coast, but on the east coast, Boston just doesn’t occur to me.
Carole: Boston is a very interesting city because it’s a university city. It’s a city where the university kids go looking for bargains. They have one major store on their street. I don’t remember the street that has floor-to-ceiling vintage. That’s a place that people go. When I go, I go there, then I go to Cambridge, and then I go to the outskirts of it, Quincy or some of the other places. You never know what you’re going to find. Sometimes it’s a bust, but other times, I’ve found some wonderful pieces.
Sharon: Does your husband come with you?
Carole: Yeah, because he’s also looking, don’t forget. He’s a collector, and he’s looking for other things we collect. He’s also looking for my welfare, what would I like. He knows my style; he knows my eye. Oftentimes when he says, “You have to look here,” he’s right on.
Sharon: Wow! I’m surprised to hear you say it. It sounds like it’s not too late to start.
Carole: It’s not too late to start. It’s more expensive to start if you’re looking for the high-end pieces. For example, when I started collecting Schreiner, my average price of Schreiner was between $150 and $300. Now, these pieces go for $10,000.
Sharon: Wow! We’ll have a picture when we post this. It’s gorgeous.
Carole Those are called ruffle pins. They started at maybe $250, and I only bought them because I loved them. I wear three together, but when I saw that they’re now going at auction for $10,000—they’re the most coveted piece of Schreiner. They’re called ruffle pins.
Sharon: Is Schreiner marked?
Carole: Many of them are marked and many of them aren’t marked. There’s a wonderful group on the internet. By the way, Sharon, I learn so much every day on the internet. A young collector will learn a lot by going through different sites on the internet. I’d be happy to share some of them with you.
But the signature of Schreiner. When Schreiner started going into the stores, he would not use the signature on many pieces because the stores wanted to use their signatures on the pieces. When he worked for the couturiers in the 40s, they wanted their names on the pieces. So, there’s 50% that are signed and 50% that are not signed. The pieces that are not signed are now verified by the Schreiner Group, which is a group on the internet of experts in the field, people who, like myself, have been collecting Schreiner for 30 and 40 years. They’re verified by a group of three collectors. So, each piece that is shown to them is on their database when it is a Schreiner. You’re not fishing; you’re not looking in the dark for a signature. You actually know it by the actual designer.
Sharon: Would you know it by the way it’s made? Are they made better? Are they made differently?
Carole: They’re made as fine gemstone jewelry is made. There’s never any discoloration. The metalwork is marvelous. He was really fanatic with that. The constructions are so intricate that they can’t be copied, so you’re safe when you look at it. If you look at the back of the Schreiner, oftentimes it’s as beautiful as the front. You get to know what to look for in the setting. Are the prongs the right prongs for Schreiner? You can do that with other designers like Kramer or Weiss. They have specific prongs, so you learn how to recognize what is or what isn’t by a designer if you’ve seen enough of it.
Sharon: It seems like every time I go to a show, there are things that say Schreiner or Weiss, the big names, and no marks. Is there anything left to find?
Carole: Yes, there’s a lot left to find. Most of it is unsigned, but again, you’re very confident once you ask the group if it’s a valid Schreiner. Most of the time, they’ll answer you almost immediately. If they have any doubts, they’ll discuss it and look at it in detail and decide whether or not it is a Schreiner. You have to buy what you love. I bought Schreiner because to me, as we are collectors of art, we think Schreiner is a work of art.
Everybody has different tastes. There are collectors of Weiss who know exactly what stones Weiss uses so those are easy for them to know, but sometimes if the Weiss is not signed, other people just have to enjoy the aesthetics. My message is that I always look at the aesthetics first. If the piece pleases me, if I love the design, if the quality is great and it’s not repurposed, it’s a piece I would buy.
Sharon: When you say repurposed, what do you mean?
Carole: In jewelry now, people are taking the liberty of adding to pieces to enhance them. Of course, it destroys the value of them because no matter how great the finished project is, it’s not a Schreiner; it’s not a Schiaparelli; it’s not Chanel. We call it repurposed because some collectors today love those pieces and they collect only repurposed, but I won’t touch these pieces.
Sharon: I’m laughing because somebody please explain to me why Chanel is so expensive. I don’t get it. You mentioned three qualities you look for, whether it’s for your costume jewelry, your collection or other people. You say it’s originality.
Carole: First and foremost, it has to please you. Whether you’re buying a $10 piece or you’re buying a $10,000 piece, it has to appeal to you. You have to know you love it; that’s first of all. Then, second of all, the workmanship. If it’s fine workmanship, meaning if the gold tone is clear and not murky, that’s a good sign. I try to buy pieces that are clean. I call them clean because there’s no imperfection on the metalwork.
Then the things I look for are that they’re not soldered, because the soldered pieces have a tendency to be weak in that area. Even the greatest soldered pieces, in my opinion, could come apart, and I would rather pass on those pieces and look for something that is in fine condition. Then the peeling of pearls. If you’re finding pearls and you’re a pearl collector, you have to look carefully because a lot of the vintage pearls peel. I wouldn’t buy a necklace unless I knew a great restorer who has those colors in pearl. Then, the original stones are very important to me. There are a lot of great repair people out there that have a breadth of stones. They can restore many pieces that are missing stones, but they have to be perfect. If they’re not perfect, an expert can always tell. If I’m selling a piece, I would like it to be perfect in that sense, or I would like the repair person I use to have it perfectly set. That’s another thing.
Then there are no missing parts. That’s another thing. This is an interesting story, and maybe a lesson to beginners. About 30 years ago, I found a wonderful piece of what I considered Reja. I was an Indian piece, a figaro with dangelis. I felt so lucky. It was the most beautiful Reja I ever saw. I learned that if something looks too good to be true, it generally is. I found out afterwards that the dangelis were added. So, it was a very good lesson to me. Sometimes when you look at piece, there’s something about it that doesn’t sit right to you. Ask questions to the dealers. They’re honest generally. If they don’t know, they’ll say, “I don’t know,” and then it’s up to you to research.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. It sounds like you’ve looked at a million and one pieces. I was under the impression that your auctions were weekly. When I say get rid of it—if you have 40,000 pieces—
Carole: No, but what I do occasionally is deaccession my earlier pieces through a couple of the national and international auctions I trust. I do that because if they’re sitting in my drawers and not doing anything, it’s not that I lost respect for them, it’s that I want other people to enjoy them. So, I would say twice a year, I have an auction at Ripley’s Auction, I have an auction here at Waddington’s Auction. When we were selling our toys, because we’re at an age now where you have to start thinking about where these things are going, I did it at Miller and Miller in Canada, a wonderful auction house. Those are the types of auctions and that’s the reason why I do them, but they’re only occasional. I always post them on my different sites so the public is aware of them.
Sharon: Where do you find the pieces you do buy? Just looking around and going to these places on the outskirts?
Carole: First of all, we are very fortunate because people know my name. They know about me, so they have offered pieces on many occasions. I’m even buying back pieces from people who don’t wear them anymore and want them passed back to me, but I would say that’s just by happenstance. We love antiquing, so it doesn’t matter whether we find or we don’t find. It’s getting much harder, as I told you, because there are fewer outlets. A lot of the small antique dealers went under and don’t have places where they can show their pieces other than the net. I do think the net now is the best place to look outside of shopping for them, but if you’re shopping for them, don’t have high hopes, because the very high end is being bought out by savvy collectors.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Dr. Sara E. Cole
Sara E. Cole is Assistant Curator of Antiquities at the J. Paul Getty Museum (Villa). She holds a PhD in Ancient History from Yale University. At the Getty, she is part of the Classical World in Context initiative, which seeks to highlight cross-cultural interactions in antiquity and explore the diversity and interconnectedness of the ancient Mediterranean and Near East through a series of special exhibitions and related publications and public programs. She has curated or assisted with exhibitions of Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Neo-Assyrian, Persian, and Nubian art.
About “Nubia: Jewels of Ancient Sudan” from the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston
October 12, 2022 - April 3, 2023
Getty Villa Museum
For nearly 3,000 years a series of kingdoms - collectively known as the Kingdom of Kush - flourished in ancient Nubia (present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan). The region was rich in sought-after resources such as gold and ivory and its trade networks reached Egypt, Greece, Rome, and central Africa. This exhibition presents highlights from the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston's extensive collection of Nubian objects and features superbly crafted jewelry, metalwork, and sculpture exhibiting the wealth and splendor of Nubian society. Learn more about the exhibit at https://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/nubian_jewelry/
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Nubian jewelry is often overshadowed by Egyptian and Greco-Roman jewelry, but the ancient Nubians were the world’s first jewelry pioneers. Their influential work is currently on display at “Nubia: Jewels of Ancient Sudan,” an exhibit at the Getty Villa featuring pieces from the collection of the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. Dr. Sara E. Cole, assistant curator of the exhibit, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Nubians developed their own enameling techniques; why jewelry is the key to understanding ancient cultures; and how iconography was shared and adapted throughout the ancient world. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Sara Cole, who’s the Assistant Curator of Antiquities at the Getty Villa in Malibu, California. She’s the curator of “Nubia: Jewels of Ancient Sudan,” an exhibit at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston which showcases Nubian material. These finds were jointly executed early in the last century by Harvard and the Museum of Fine Arts. The exhibit is now open until April 3. Welcome back.
Can you look at a piece of jewelry and say, maybe not exactly where it came from, but the period? It’s late; it’s early? Can you look at one and know?
Sara: To put it in a bigger perspective, something about this collection of material that makes it so special is that it is all from documented archaeological excavations that were carried out in the early 20th century. Jewelry can be quite challenging if you have no context for a piece other than by comparing it stylistically to other known examples. It can be quite difficult sometimes to try to approximate when and where something was made, or to say with 100% certainty that it’s even ancient if you have no context for it. A lot of the same materials and techniques that were used in antiquity are used or can be mimicked today. But with all of this material, it came from documented archaeological excavation, so we know exactly where it was found. Thanks to that context, we are able to say approximately the time period in which it must have been made and used and placed in the tomb. I suppose you could compare other surviving examples with what we now know from the archaeological record, but with this material, we are able to be absolutely certain of its authenticity and the time period in which it was being made and used because we have that archaeological context.
Because Nubia had such a close relationship with Egypt and they engaged in so much exchange, there are some pieces that are found in Nubian contexts that might have been made in Egypt and imported to Nubia. It’s often very difficult to say precisely where something was made because they were using very similar techniques and materials and iconography. So, there are a number of pieces in the exhibition that we think might have been manufactured in Egypt and then imported into Nubia. But even where that’s the case, those objects clearly have value to the Nubians because they speak to their cultural and religious beliefs and priorities.
Sharon: So, people would wear this jewelry in life, the pectorals or amulets. Did they have the same thing in their grave? Were they buried with what they wore, or did they have something special for it? Is it something made just to be buried with?
Sara: It’s both, actually. These royal tombs contained rich assemblages of jewelry. Some of the items do appear, based on signs of wear, to have actually been worn in life and then placed in the tomb with the deceased. There are also pieces that appear to have been made specifically to go in the burial, things that are very, very delicate and seem like they would not have been able to work in real life, or certain objects that are made specifically for funerary contexts.
There’s one piece in the exhibition from the Napatan Period that’s really exquisite. It’s this large, gold repoussé image of the goddess Isis, who is kneeling and stretching her wings out in a protective gesture, but at the tips of her wings and below her legs are these little tabs that each have a hole punched in them. The piece is too delicate, it seems, to have been something that someone would wear in life. And because of those little tabs with the punched holes, we believe it was probably manufactured specifically for this king’s burial, and that it was meant to be sewn into the linen mummy wrappings that were used to mummify his body. Often there were amulets, protective icons, pieces of jewelry that were incorporated into the wrappings during the mummification process. So, it’s both. Some of these pieces were probably worn in life and then taken to the tomb, and some of them were made specifically for the burial context.
Sharon: I’m surprised you can even tell the difference between Egypt and Nubia with the cross-pollination. You talk about Isis. Being an expert, how does somebody know it was Egyptian? The only thing I’ve heard is that earrings were Egyptian. There weren’t earrings before that.
Sara: It’s actually the other way around. This is one of the areas where the Nubians may have influenced the Egyptians. Earrings appear in Nubia before they appear in Egypt, so it’s possible the Egyptians got the idea for earrings from the Nubians. As I mentioned, too, the fly pendant ornament originates in Nubia and gets adopted by the Egyptians. So, there is influence going in both directions, and where the Nubians incorporate Egyptian religious ideas, religious iconography, protective icons, they’re still adapting it. They’re not directly copying it necessarily. They’re adapting it to their local traditions, to the types of materials they work with, to the types of objects and ornaments they make. It’s not necessarily just a direct copy.
In some instances, it is hard to tell whether a specific piece was made in Nubia versus Egypt. But with the burials themselves, we know these are Nubians and not Egyptians because we’re looking not just at the jewelry, but at the overall burial itself, the whole object assemblage, the types of materials they’re being buried with. In addition to the jewelry, there would be things like vessels, pottery, tools, weapons, things that give us a bigger picture. The cultural identity is not just the jewelry, but also the way in which they’re buried and the place in which they’re buried. In the Kerma Period, they used a very distinctive type of burial. They used tumulus burials, these big, beehive-shaped mounds, which was a distinctive type of burial. Over time those mounds get larger and larger, and we can tell that some of them must have belonged to Kerma rulers.
Even though there are now written records during that period, we’re going strictly by the archaeological record. In the Napatan Period, they actually used Egyptian hieroglyphs for monumental inscriptions. We do start to get some written records that we can read, and when these kings’ and queens’ tombs were excavated, there were often items within the tomb inscribed with their names. So, we know who these tombs belonged to, and they belonged to Nubian and Napatan kings and queens. It’s really looking at the big picture and not just at the jewelry specifically to identify who these items belonged to and whose burials they come from.
Sharon: First, I want to know how anybody even knew these tombs were there. Everything you’re describing, at least from the description of what was in the tombs, is what Carter found when he opened the tomb just a few years later, maybe 10 years later. I’m just wondering how they knew these tombs were there. How did they know that? Was it just the beehives that were standing on a farm?
Sara: The material that’s in the MFA Boston was all excavated in the early 20th century, from 1913 to 1932, by a joint Harvard/MFA Boston expedition led by an American archaeologist named George Reisner, who worked in both Egypt and Sudan. He took a team to Sudan that ended up excavating at Kerma, Napata and Meroë. He was tremendously successful in what he discovered, and he essentially rediscovered the city of Kerma. There have been excavations within the city itself, but they also discovered this vast cemetery outside of the city containing tens of thousands of these tumulus burials. Then at Napata and Meroë, they’re utilizing pyramid burials, which are still visible on the landscape. You can walk up to them. He was really the first to do these rigorously documented, professional archaeological excavations of these places, and he found a tremendous amount of material.
I should also mention the way it ended up in Boston is that, at the time, Sudan practiced the partage system, so he finds would essentially be split 50-50. About half the materials remain in Sudan, where it is now in the national museum in Khartoum, and about half the material was allowed to be taken back to Boston by Reisner, where it became part of the MFA collection. So, the MFA is now home to the largest and most significant collection of Nubian archaeological material in the world outside of Khartoum.
Sharon: Did they suspect that there were these kingdoms, but nobody ever found them? Is that what happened? How did he start digging?
Sara: To be perfectly honest, I would have to go back and double check how he determined exactly where he wanted to begin.
Sharon: Why should we care about the Nubians? Why should we care about these kingdoms? You describe how it kept moving further south. That’s usually because of agriculture. What caused them to move, besides invasion?
Sara: That’s a broad question. I don’t know that we necessarily know for certain what was motivating them to move from one city to the next. In terms of the question of why we should care, that’s something we could ask about any ancient civilization. It does raise this broader question about relevance that a lot of audiences are asking.
I would say for Nubia especially, this is the region in northeastern Africa where some of the earliest civilizations of ancient Africa are arising. This is an incredibly important region that was also a real crossroads for international trade, given their connections to the Red Sea, into central Africa, into sub-Saharan Africa, and eventually out into the broader Mediterranean world. This was a very interconnected place with rich natural resources where some of the earliest complex civilizations of ancient Africa arise, so I think we absolutely should care about it.
Speaking in terms of jewelry specifically, this is the place where some of the most exquisitely crafted, sophisticated pieces of ancient jewelry in the world were produced. They were incredibly skilled artisans who developed techniques for working with these materials that in some cases, like I mentioned with the enameling, were believed to have been invented in the modern era until recently.
Sharon: That’s amazing. I always have to think about the fact that they didn’t have electric lights and they had to work by candlelight. They had to deal with sunlight only.
I don’t know exactly how to phrase this, but most of the time, if I were to take a piece from the little room of jewelry at the Getty Villa, and I want to take it out and put it on my wrists, nobody would know the difference. Would you say that’s the same with a lot of this?
Sara: I think so. It always strikes people how contemporary some of these pieces look. They look like things that could have been made today.
Sharon: Were they going back or was this the start of it? Were they going back and building on what had been done before?
Sara: They were really pioneers. They were developing new techniques and new styles for working with this material. In the pre-Kerma phase, in the archaeological record, there are items of personal adornment that are made from things like shell or imported faience sometimes, simple strings of beads, that kind of thing. But then as they develop kiln technology to make pottery, they’re also able to apply that to making faience and eventually glass. They develop, as I mentioned, these very sophisticated techniques for working with different semiprecious stones, for working with gold, for working with glass and enameling. They’re really not looking back to any existing precedent. They are developing these techniques for the first time.
Sharon: That’s amazing. You wonder why each civilization or each culture seems to have certain things that are ubiquitous, like a ram’s head. You wonder, where did it start? What keeps your attention about all of this? Is it the cross-pollination?
Sara: I don’t even know where to begin answering that. I find this material endlessly fascinating. Every time you look at it, you see or appreciate something new, the intricacy of it, or as I mentioned, the ways in which this jewelry for the ancient Nubians is not just a status item. It’s not just something beautiful to look at and wear. It’s imbued with all of these layers of meaning. It reflects so many aspects of Nubian society and Nubian beliefs and Nubian practices. Because of the relative lack of written records from ancient Nubia, we are reliant on the archaeological record. So much of this jewelry helps us more broadly understand ancient Nubian society. I think you can come back to it and look at it over and over again and find new levels of meaning in it every time, as well as being able to appreciate how beautiful it is.
Sharon: But you must have seen a lot of ancient jewelry. You’ve seen Greek and Roman and Egyptian and Nubian. What keeps your attention? What’s so fascinating that it would keep your attention for so long?
Sara: I think everything I just mentioned. The jewelry across ancient societies is fascinating for those same reasons, that it typically is not just about beauty and personal adornment. It’s also reflective of cultural and religious beliefs, but I think it’s the fact that this material is some of the earliest of its kind as well. As I mentioned, they’re pioneers in developing new techniques or adopting techniques from other places and reengineering them as they did with faience, which was being made in Egypt prior to Nubia. They reengineered it, figured out how to make it for themselves. They were developing these unique techniques like the glazed quartz, the enameling techniques. It's incredible to think that 3,000, 4,000 years ago, people were making these items and developing these technologies and with handmade tools and natural light, and it would be very difficult to control temperatures of a kiln. It’s incredible.
Sharon: It is incredible. I know the Getty Villa is different than the Getty Center. The Getty Villa is a replica of a Roman villa, and it has a little room that has just jewelry. It’s very small. It’s a jewel box of a room, really. Do they have Nubian jewelry in there?
Sara: We do not. We do not own any ancient Nubian jewelry in our permanent collection at the Villa. The Villa is a separate site from the Getty Center. We are home to the Getty Museum’s Antiquities Collection specifically. Our permanent collection of antiquities is predominantly Greek, Roman and Etruscan. This Nubian exhibition is part of a broader initiative we’ve been engaged in in recent years, where we’re trying to bring in special exhibitions featuring material from other ancient cultures and civilizations so our visitors can get a bigger picture of the ancient world. It’s also so we’re not perpetuating this idea that in antiquity, Greek and Roman are all there is. There’s so much more than that. What’s reflected in our permanent collection is Greek and Roman. So, through this special exhibition program, we’re able to highlight other cultures. We also recently had a big exhibition on ancient Persia that included some stunning items of Persian jewelry.
Sharon: I missed that one.
Sara: We don’t have any Nubian or Egyptian jewelry in our antiquities collection, so this is a unique opportunity. As I mentioned, this material is housed at the MFA Boston, so it’s a unique opportunity for people on the West Coast to see a major exhibition of ancient Nubian material, but it is quite different. You can see some stylistic similarities like I mentioned with the Meroitic Period, when they have those trade connections to the Greco-Roman world. You can see stylistic similarities between some of our Greco-Roman pieces and some of the pieces in the Meroitic section of the exhibition, but it is very distinctive. It’s a nice counterpoint.
We have at the Getty a pretty significant collection of ancient, engraved gemstones as well as some Hellenistic gold jewelry and finger rings. You can see similarities. Finger rings with carved bezzles became very popular during the Meroitic Period as well, so you can see some similarities there with the rings being made in the Greco-Roman world.
Sharon: If you haven’t seen the little room with jewelry there, you could take any piece from the Greco-Roman era—and it’s probably true of the Nubian era, too—and put it on, and nobody would know the difference if you went to the market.
Sara: Yeah.
Sharon: Something I came across mentioned the role of women in Nubia, that there was a stronger role. Can you tell us something about that?
Sara: Yes, it seems throughout ancient Nubian history, in the Kingdom of Kush, royal women held particularly high status. We can see that in a few different ways. We can see that in their burials. We can see it some of their individual items of jewelry, which I’ll mention, and we also see it in some of the practices that were being implemented, the roles that royal women had. In the Napatan period, there were a group of royal women who became associated with the god Amun and were sent to Thebes in Egypt, which was the Egyptian center of the worship of Egyptian Amun. These women were made into high priestesses of the god at his temple there. So, they held these very high-ranking, powerful positions, and these were royal women who were relatives of the Napatan kings who were also ruling in Egypt. They had great religious significance in this very important role, where they were sent to Egypt as god’s wives of Amun, what we call them, or high priestesses of Amun.
During the same period, there are some items of jewelry in royal women’s tombs at Napata that speak to their importance. For instance, there’s a piece in the exhibition that is easy to overlook because it’s very small, but it’s definitely worth taking the time to look at. It’s a little silver pendant that shows the goddess Hathor, who I mentioned previously is the goddess of love and fertility and motherhood who gets adopted and becomes very important in the Nubian culture. It’s an image of Hathor, and she is nursing a Nubian queen named Nefrukakashta. The item was found in her tomb. So, she is receiving, essentially, divine lifeforce from Hathor through being nursed by her. This is important because this was also a composition we see in Egypt, but there it’s only the kings who appear being nursed by Hathor. The king is embodying a divine role as pharaoh, so he receives divine lifeforce from Hathor. You never see royal women in ancient Egypt in this pose being nursed by Hathor, but in Nubia, we see it. The status of royal woman is higher there. They’re considered worthy of being show in this position of being nursed by the goddess herself.
By the time we get to the Meroitic Period, the final phase of the kingdom, there’s actually a series of queens who take the throne for themselves and they rule as sole rules. These were very powerful women ruling over the Kingdom of Kush in its final phase, one of whom even famously fought off attempts at invasion by the Roman emperor Augusts. She signed a peace treaty with him to protect the border between Nubia and Egypt, which at that time had become a Roman province. So, royal women in ancient Nubia achieved very high status.
Sharon: I think that’s very interesting. I could talk to you for hours about the history of women and what happened after that. Thank you so much, Sara, for being with us today. I just want to remind you about the exhibit. I listened to a webinar and looked at the press release. It looks like it will be a very interesting exhibit. I look forward to seeing it in person live. It’s through April 13. Dr. Sara Cole is the assistant curator. Thank you very much for being here today.
Sara: Thank you so much for having me.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Dr. Sara E. Cole
Sara E. Cole is Assistant Curator of Antiquities at the J. Paul Getty Museum (Villa). She holds a PhD in Ancient History from Yale University. At the Getty, she is part of the Classical World in Context initiative, which seeks to highlight cross-cultural interactions in antiquity and explore the diversity and interconnectedness of the ancient Mediterranean and Near East through a series of special exhibitions and related publications and public programs. She has curated or assisted with exhibitions of Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Neo-Assyrian, Persian, and Nubian art.
About “Nubia: Jewels of Ancient Sudan” from the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston
October 12, 2022 - April 3, 2023
Getty Villa Museum
For nearly 3,000 years a series of kingdoms - collectively known as the Kingdom of Kush - flourished in ancient Nubia (present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan). The region was rich in sought-after resources such as gold and ivory and its trade networks reached Egypt, Greece, Rome, and central Africa. This exhibition presents highlights from the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston's extensive collection of Nubian objects and features superbly crafted jewelry, metalwork, and sculpture exhibiting the wealth and splendor of Nubian society. Learn more about the exhibit at https://www.getty.edu/art/exhibitions/nubian_jewelry/
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Nubian jewelry is often overshadowed by Egyptian and Greco-Roman jewelry, but the ancient Nubians were the world’s first jewelry pioneers. Their influential work is currently on display at “Nubia: Jewels of Ancient Sudan,” an exhibit at the Getty Villa featuring pieces from the collection of the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. Dr. Sara E. Cole, assistant curator of the exhibit, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Nubians developed their own enameling techniques; why jewelry is the key to understanding ancient cultures; and how iconography was shared and adapted throughout the ancient world. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Sara Cole, who’s the Assistant Curator of Antiquities at the Getty Villa in Malibu, California. She’s the curator of “Nubia: Jewels of Ancient Sudan,” an exhibit at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston which showcases Nubian material. These finds were jointly executed early in the last century by Harvard and the Museum of Fine Arts. The exhibit is now open until April 3. Sara received her Ph.D. from Yale, which is amazing. She’s an expert in ancient history and a specialist in material culture of Greco-Roman Egypt. She has studied the cross-pollination of cultures, and we’ll hear a lot more about it today. Sara, welcome to the program.
Sara: Thank you for having me.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your own journey. Did you come to jewelry through antiquities or archaeology, or the other way around?
Sara: Yes, through my study of archaeology and Egyptology as a graduate student. That was primarily my introduction to this material. I became familiar with Nubia primarily through the MFA Boston’s tremendous archaeological collection of Nubian material. When I was a graduate student at Yale back in, I think, 2011, I took a graduate seminar on Nubian archaeology with a Nubian specialist named Maria Gatto. In one of our classes, we took the train to Boston and got to spend a day going through the storerooms of the MFA looking at Nubian material. We were primarily looking at pottery that day, but we did get to see some other objects as well.
In 2014, MFA put on its own small exhibition featuring their Nubian jewelry collection, so that brought that material a little bit more into public view. Then in 2019, the MFA did a big exhibition bringing out highlights of their full Nubian collection that was called “Ancient Nubia Now.” Since 2019, they very generously sent parts of this collection to different museums for exhibitions around the world. We’re very fortunate at the Getty Villa that we were able to borrow some of these stunning pieces of jewelry and personal adornment from that collection for this current exhibition.
Sharon: I have to ask you. When you were younger, you say you were interested in Egypt and ancient periods, but very few people go into archaeology. How is it that you stuck with it?
Sara: Museums were really my entry point to the ancient world as a child, which I think is true for a lot of us. I grew up in a small town in Virginia and wasn’t exposed to major museum collections as kid, but we had a small, local museum. It featured mostly local contemporary artists, but one summer they put on view a small touring exhibition of Egyptian material from the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts in Richmond. I was probably 11 or 12 years old. That was my first exposure to ancient Egyptian material, and I just found it incredibly captivating and compelling, and I stuck with that interest.
I ended up doing a bachelor’s degree in classics and then my Ph.D. in ancient history, where I studied a combination of Egyptology, classics and art history. But I’ve always had a great passion for museums in particular because it was my personal entry point to the ancient world. We do have the opportunity, through putting on exhibitions like this, to reach such wide audiences and to bring this material to their attention, things they’ve maybe never seen or considered before. It’s a really wonderful opportunity.
Sharon: It really is. When you say Nubia, a lot of us haven’t really thought about Nubia or Nubian jewels. That’s the entry point or the foundation. What is Nubia? What do you mean by Nubian?
Sara: That’s a great question, because I think a lot of people have heard of Nubia but they’re not quite sure what it is. Traditionally it has received a lot less attention than ancient Egypt, which is this huge, looming civilization. When we talk about ancient Nubia, we’re really talking about a geographical region that was located immediately south of ancient Egypt. They were neighbors. In terms of modern-day geography, it reached essentially from Aswan in what is now southern Egypt down to about Khartoum in present-day Sudan. The contemporary political border between Egypt and Sudan cuts across part of what was ancient Nubia, when the border was located further north between Nubia and Egypt. So, it’s essentially this geographical region going across part of what is today southern Egypt and northern Sudan. For parts of its ancient history, Nubia as a region was actually home to several different cultural groups. It wasn’t always a single, unified culture. So, when we talk about Nubia, we’re talking about the geographical area, and then there were different cultures that lived within Nubia.
Around the third millennium B.C., a political institute called the Kingdom of Kush—because the region was known as Kush in antiquity—arose at the city of Karma in what is today Sudan. It eventually came to conquer essentially all of the region of Nubia. The Kingdom of Kush lasted on and off for a period of almost 3,000 years, and it moved to different capital cities in different phases. It first arose at Kerma in the third millennium B.C., then moved further south to a capital called Napata, which was also along the Nile River, around 750 B.C. Then in its final phase, starting around 350 B.C., it was centered at a city even further south on the Nile River called Meroë. So, when we talk about ancient Nubia, we’re talking about that region, but for this exhibition, we’re really focusing on items of jewelry that were worn by royalty and the elite of the Kingdom of Kush that were found at these three successive capital cities.
Sharon: I was going to ask you if Napata and—is it Morocco?
Sara: Meroë.
Sharon: Meroë. I’ve heard so much about it, but did they all have jewelry? Did the royalty all have jewelry at all three of these sites?
Sara: Yes, absolutely. Throughout human history, I think in all cultures we see personal adornment as a universal means of self-expression. It’s a means of expressing status and power. But also in antiquity, much of this jewelry, either the materials themselves or the iconography incorporated into it, had symbolic religious significance. Items of jewelry were often amuletic and protective, or they could signify one’s status in society, one’s role. They reflect a lot about an ancient culture’s social organization, religious beliefs, communities, etc. These items of jewelry speak to so much more than being aesthetically beautiful status items. So, yes, even very early in Kerma and even in pre-Kerma archaeology, we find items of jewelry in the archaeological record. Jewelry was very essential, especially for rulers and for individuals of high status, to express themselves in ancient Nubia.
Sharon: Did both men and women have jewelry?
Sara: Yes, they did. Men, women, children, and sometimes even very prized royal animals were adorned with jewelry.
Sharon: Were these from tombs or graves?
Sara: Yes, essentially all of the items in this exhibition were excavated from royal and wealthy burials. This was material that people valued in life but also chose to take with them to the grave. As a I mentioned, a lot of these pieces have iconography that is protective or amuletic, which would have particular significance in the context of the tomb. These are images that are going to protect you as you are making your transition to the afterlife. So, all of the material was excavated from burials. That is primarily where we find these high-status jewelry items still surviving. They survive because they were buried, and people didn’t have the opportunity to reuse them or repurpose the materials.
Sharon: First of all, I think I forgot to say that this exhibit is only on until April 3, which comes up quickly. I can’t remember if I said that or not.
Sara: Yes, two more months to go see it at the Villa.
Sharon: When you say it’s like a dynasty or the Kingdom of Kush lasted 3,000 years, I have this idea that it rose high and then it was—I don’t want to say nothing, but they weren’t reading. It was like the Dark Ages in a sense, really dark, and then it rose again in a different place. How did that work?
Sara: The Kingdom of Kush went through fluctuations over that 3,000-year period. I wouldn’t necessarily call it dark ages. The Nubians simply never developed the same tradition of extensive written records like we get from Egypt, so much of our knowledge of Nubia comes from the archaeological material. We just don’t have extensive written historical documentation from this region. It wasn’t part of the culture. They had a very complicated relationship with their neighbor to the north, Egypt, which is largely the reason for these periods of rise and fall.
The Kingdom of Kush arose, like I mentioned, at Kerma in Sudan, during which time in northern Nubia, there were other cultural groups inhabiting that region who were in conflict with Egypt. The Kingdom of Kush eventually was able to take that region and unify Nubia under its rule. Kerma flourished for almost 1,000 years, from about 2,400 B.C. until roughly 1,550 B.C.
But what happened around 1,550 was that Egypt entered into a very powerful period in its history, the New Kingdom, the rise of the Eighteenth Dynasty, and those kings invaded Nubia and took over. They occupied Nubia for about 500 years, during which time we don’t have a tremendous amount of archaeological evidence for what was going on. But it seems like Nubians and Egyptians were essentially coexisting in Nubia during this period. As you can imagine, over 500 years, there’s a huge amount of cross-cultural exchange as a result of the Egyptian presence in Nubia. Some Egyptian religious ideas get incorporated into local Nubian tradition, as does a lot of iconography. There are a lot of ways in which the Nubians start adapting some Egyptian concepts to their own local practices.
Then the Egyptians get pushed out of Nubia around 1,000 B.C. approximately. The Kingdom of Kush starts to regroup and rebuild itself, and it reappears fully around 750 B.C., now at the capital city of Napata. What’s interesting at the beginning of the Napatan phase is that the Nubians turn the tables on Egypt and invade them. They take over Egypt and rule for about 80 years. For that 80-year period, staring around 725 B.C., the Kingdom of Kush is at its greatest extent, going all the way from what is today Sudan up to the Mediterranean coast, ruling over both Nubia and Egypt.
After that 80-year period, they get pushed out of Egypt but are still ruling the Kingdom of Kush from Napata. We see some really interesting ways in which the rulers of that 80-year period adapted an Egyptian mode of self-presentation. They’re trying to present themselves as legitimate pharaohs in Egypt. They start presenting themselves in a way that is adapted from earlier pharaonic styles of self-presentation. Even though the Nubian kings are spending some time in Egypt, they choose to be sent back to Napata for their royal burials, and they start using pyramid tombs during this period. They start practicing mummification and incorporating some Egyptian-style object assemblages into their burials. We see some of those practices get adapted during this 80-year period, including the incorporation of a lot of Egyptian religious iconography into their jewelry. We see those trends continue later, even when they’re no longer ruling in Egypt.
Then during this Napatan phase, which lasts roughly 400 years, they start to gradually shift the capital further south to this third city of Meroë. By around 350 B.C., both the administrative capital and the royal cemetery have moved to Meroë, and this is the final phase of the Kingdom of Kush. This is a phase that lasts from roughly 350 B.C. to 350 A.D., when the Kingdom of Kush falls. It corresponds with the conquests of Alexander the Great throughout the eastern Mediterranean and ancient Near East, the rise of his successor kingdoms and then the rise of the Roman Empire. But throughout all of this, the Kingdom of Kush maintained its political independence. It never became part of Alexander’s territories; it never became part of the Roman Empire, unlike Egypt, which did.
They had a complex relationship with Rome, who at times tried to take Nubia unsuccessfully, but they were also connected to these vast trade networks that connected the Mediterranean and the Near East throughout the Roman Empire. It was a very cosmopolitan place, ancient Meroë. They were very closely connected through trade networks to the rest of the world. They were also producing some incredibly high-status pieces of jewelry with really exquisite craftsmanship. Then the Kingdom of Kush falls around 350 A.D. That’s the big picture of what we’re looking at here, with the history of the Kingdom of Kush and its different phases.
Sharon: When you say Nubia, is that the same as the Kingdom of Kush? Do you mean the Kingdom of Kush or Nubia are one in the same, I guess?
Sara: Nubia in antiquity was known as Kush, and then the Kingdom of Kush is the political entity ruling over that region.
Sharon: Did the jewelry change over the years?
Sara: It did, yes. We do see that even across these different phases, each one has a distinctive aesthetic. There is no single, unified Nubian look to the jewelry. Different fashions change over time. Different popular materials come in and out of fashion. In Kerma, in the earliest phases, we see jewelers making items out of locally available and imported organic materials. They’re making use of things like hippo and elephant ivory to create cuff bracelets. They’re making use of shells they imported from the Red Sea coast and fashioned into different items. They were also importing faience from Egypt. Ancient faience was a man-made, blue-green, glazed, quartz-based ceramic material that was very popular in Egypt. The Kermans were importing it initially, but then they developed their own faience-making technology and were able to produce their own. So, we start to see the use of this man-made material.
They’re using gold. Nubia in antiquity is known primarily as a land of gold because of their rich gold resources in the Eastern Desert. That was their main coveted natural resource. They had incredibly skillful techniques in working with gold. We see them using locally available semiprecious stones, things like carnelian and amethyst. They work with quartz in some really interesting ways. Quartz is found alongside gold, so it was probably symbolically associated with gold. Gold was valued not only because it was this very prized economic resource, but it was also an imperishable material. It was associated with immortality and the sun, and it was very highly symbolically valued.
They would take quartz and do an interesting treatment that, as far as I am aware, is distinctive to ancient Kerma. They would take the quartz, either shaping it into spherical beads or taking chunks of it in its raw form to use as pendants, and they would put a blue-green glaze over it and fire it in a kiln to create a hard, shiny, translucent blue surface that creates this stunning, glass-like appearance when it’s done successfully. It was a delicate technique. You had to be very careful, because if you raised the temperature in the kiln too quickly, the quartz would fracture and burst, and you would lose your item of jewelry you were making. They had to be very careful in this process, but again, as far as I know, this is a distinctive Kerman technique, a distinctive way of working with quartz. Those were the types of materials they were utilizing to make items of jewelry.
There’s also a particular ornament we start to see in Kerma that is really interesting and later gets adopted by the Egyptians, which is the fly pendant. They are these large pendants that were often worn in pairs strung around the neck, and they represent flies. We have an example in the exhibition where the head is made of gilded bronze and the wings are carved out of ivory. These are found in soldiers’ tombs. They appear to have been given as a medal of honor to high-status members of the Nubian military. We can ask why they would choose a fly of all things to honor a member of the military, and we believe it’s because if you go to Egypt, if you go to the Nile Valley, you will experience that the flies are very big and mean and aggressive. So, we think these fly pendants are a way of associating the aggression and the tenacity of the Nilotic flies with the aggression and the tenacity of Nubian warriors. Later these fly pendants actually get adopted in Egypt as well as a military medal of honor. So, those were the kinds of things we find at Kerma.
As I mentioned, that period comes to an end with this big invasion of the Egyptians around 1,500 B.C. Then when the Kingdom of Kush rearises at Napata around 750 B.C., they invade Egypt. They take over, and we start to see how this 500-year period of intense cross-cultural interaction has resulted in the introduction of a lot of Egyptian iconography into the royal jewelry. We start to see a lot of images of goddesses like Hathor and Isis, who became very important in the Nubian pantheon. There is an Egyptian god called Amun who becomes introduced as the supreme god of ancient Nubia, but in his Nubian form specifically, he takes the form of a ram or a man with a ram’s head. We believe that before this period, there was probably an indigenous ram god who Amun became assimilated with. So, we see a lot of ram iconography in the jewelry.
There’s a lot of iconography associated with the goddess Hathor, who was this Egyptian goddess of love, fertility, beauty and motherhood with whom Nubian queens and royal women became particularly associated. We see a lot of that kind of iconography. We see protective icons that have been introduced from Egypt, things like the Eye of Floridus, the scarab beetle, that kind of thing. They’re working a lot in faience still. There are some queens’ tombs from this period where these large faience plaques are very popular, again in the shapes of religious protective imagery, amuletic icons, gods and goddesses. They were big plaques that were strung on strings of beads and worn around the neck, essentially meant to sit over the chest to protect the pectorals.
We see a lot of that kind of thing, this incorporation of new iconography, new religious ideas, sometimes a very Egyptian mode of self-presentation that they’ve adopted from the Egyptians. They’re working in faience; they’re working in gold. We do see some silver during this period. Silver was not locally available; it was an imported material, but we do see a lot of skilled gold work during this phase. They are developing some very sophisticated techniques for how to fashion items of jewelry, but also things like golden vessels. This is a phase where we start to see that Egyptian influence and some increasing sophistication in the techniques with which they’re working, with both these man-made and locally available resources.
In the Meroitic Period, we see those gold working techniques really hit their stride. There is some tremendously sophisticated gold work made during the Meroitic Period, where they’re using techniques like granulation and filigree and very delicate wirework. At Meroë, they also start producing glass. Glass beads start to appear in the jewelry. Something that Meroë distinctively is also known for is the use of a wide range of enameling techniques. They would take powdered glass and apply it to the surface of items of jewelry, and then heat it to fuse it and create it a hard, shiny, colorful surface. There were multiple enameling techniques they developed at Meroë, some of which, prior to their discovery at Meroë, were thought to have not been invented until the modern era. There were techniques they developed at Meroë, and the knowledge of that technology was lost and rediscovered in modern times.
This is also a phase during which we see, as I mentioned, a kind of cosmopolitan international style developing. We do see some Greco-Roman influences coming into play in the form of large, dangly pendant earrings and the development of new color schemes, for instance. There was a color scheme at Meroë that was especially popular, which was red, white and black. They would use cornelian, which was a popular material, to achieve the red and then import obsidian for black and travertine for white. Each phase has its own distinctive repertoire of objects and iconography and manufacturing techniques that were being used.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
END OF PART ONE
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Shirley Mueller
Shirley M. Mueller, MD is an internationally known collector and scholar of Chinese export porcelain, as well as a physician board-certified in Neurology and Psychiatry. This latter expertise led her to explore her own intentions while collecting art, which, she discovered, are applicable to all collectors. This new understanding is the motivation for this book. Mueller not only lectures and publishes about the neuropsychology of the collector; she also was guest curator for Elegance from the East: New Insights into Old Porcelain at the Indianapolis Museum of Art (now Newfields) in 2017. In this unique exhibit, she combined export porcelain with concepts from neuroscience to make historical objects personally relevant to visitors.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When you’re a collector, determining what will happen to your collection in the future is a difficult but necessary process. Whether that means selling, donating or auctioning off your pieces, it’s hard to let go of beloved possessions. As a neuroscientist who studies how collecting impacts the brain (and as an avid collector of Chinese export porcelain herself), Dr. Shirley Mueller knows all too well how bittersweet it is to deaccession a collection. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her experience auctioning off some of her pieces; why collectors are different from dealers; and what to consider when passing on your collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Today, my guest is Dr. Shirley Mueller. She is an M.D., Ph.D., professor and neuroscientist. She’s also an internationally known collector and scholar of Chinese export porcelain. She’s the author of “Inside the Head of a Collector: Neurological Forces at Play.” She’s also been our guest on the podcast before. Welcome back.
Is there a difference between collecting or deaccessioning and curating? I have let go of a lot of the lower-end pieces I might have wanted when I was 20, but do I want it when I’m older?
Shirley: I would say good for you for curating your collection.
Sharon: Is there a difference between the two?
Shirley: Yes, curating a collection, for me, is just what you did. It’s selecting what is not as high-end as it could be and selling it. A lot of people use that money to buy something better. Or, as one ages, it’s just to get rid of pieces. It’s selecting out. I’d be curious to know where you sold these pieces. Was that a struggle to find an auction house?
Sharon: We’re talking about a different level. I don’t have pieces in the Met, so it doesn’t matter. First of all, I couldn’t, because even though I might not use it or wear it, what’s the difference if it’s in the bottom of my box or not? It doesn’t matter.
I have a friend who’s a collector and a dealer. When she gets a piece, she thinks about how she can make a profit selling it, even though she loves the piece too. I never think about that. I just think, “Do I love it or not?”
Shirley: Right, but she’s a dealer and you’re not. She’s a dealer/collector.
Sharon: Yes. I think it takes a certain chutzpah to be a dealer, and I just don’t have it. I’d rather know that somebody has something, or I have it, and not have to ask for the money.
Shirley: I think I have not always had a high respect for dealers, especially some dealers, but recently I’ve been involved with a dealer in New York who is taking some of my things and will try to sell them for me. When I see the work he has to put into his shop and into selling, and he has to acquire a high degree of knowledge about the pieces in order to help people understand what they are and how they might fit according to their desire, I have a much higher respect for dealers. They work hard. Not all of them are as good as this dealer I’ve been working with in New York City, but I think many of them are.
Sharon: I think you said it, in that you have to know your dealer and trust that whatever they say is the right thing, and then you can go from there. I have respect for dealers because I’d rather somebody else goes out and looks for it and researches it and knows the history as opposed to me. They do work very, very hard, and then they have the business.
Have you deaccessioned some pieces besides giving it to the Met or to your granddaughter? Have you deaccessioned some of your pieces besides that?
Shirley: I’m selling at Christie’s, and I think I will do what you just talked about with some of the lower end pieces. I think I will sell them. I’m going to have to sell them, not at Christie’s New York or Bonhams New York. They’re probably going to have to be sold locally. It definitely scares me to sell them locally, but if I want to have more space in my house, I’m going to have to do that. We currently, Sharon, have most of our closets filled with porcelain. While other people would have linens or coats in their closets, we don’t; we have porcelain in our closets, and we need more room.
Sharon: Aren’t you afraid it’s going to break if you have it in your closet?
Shirley: No, the closets have shelves. If they didn’t have shelves, they do now.
Sharon: I guess my first thought was you don’t live in California. With the earthquakes, you get nervous.
Shirley: Right.
Sharon: What have you seen when it comes to letting go of prize possessions? You said some have gone to a museum. Let’s say a person like me is not going to have a piece in a museum, but it’s a prize to me and I think it’s worth a certain amount of money. What if I thought I’d never get what it’s worth?
Shirley: Then you have to make a decision.
Sharon: Yeah, I guess I do.
Shirley: Right. You have to make the decision whether you’ll take less or not. If you take less, then you have the money and can do with it whatever you want. Alternatively, if someone else sells it for you, they’ll take whatever they got, probably even less than what you would get because they don’t have any bargaining power or knowledge.
Sharon: That’s true, but I have seen collectors who have turned over the collection to a museum who, within a few years, have as much or more than they did before.
Shirley: You mean they keep buying?
Sharon: Yes, so I guess I don’t know why. I feel like, “Why don’t I just hoard the whole thing?”
Shirley: Right. Is it their second collection after they give their first collection to a museum? Is their second collection the same or something different?
Sharon: It’s the same. It’s a higher end. I think they still buy with the idea of a museum. When it comes to collecting, do you ever talk to museums and say, “Are you missing something from this that I should keep my eyes open for?”
Shirley: No, but that is commonly done, what you just spoke about. In terms of my relationships with museums, many curators have visited our home, and I pretty much know what they’re interested in. Subtly they’ve let me know what they’re interested in. It doesn’t mean I’m going to give the piece to them just because they’re interested in it. It means I have to have a relationship with that curator and like that curator.
Sharon: If somebody was going to let their collection go to somebody else, and the curator came and said, “I heard you’re going to let them go,” and really developed a relationship very quickly and ended up with the collection, could that happen?
Shirley: It could happen, yes.
Sharon: It could happen?
Shirley: Museums buy for the most choice collections. Often it is the director of a museum or the curator from the museum that establishes a relationship. After that, a deal has to be had, and it’s during this dealmaking that sometimes the museum and the collector break up because the deal is not suitable to the collector.
Some collectors will disburse their choice collection among like 12 museums in the United States. That’s actually been done. They have some of their collection, let’s say, in Palm Beach, some of their collection in Minneapolis, some of their collection at Winterthur. It’s because one museum didn’t make enough of an offer that they liked, so the whole collection didn’t go to one place. They just made arrangements with different institutions.
Sharon: When you say deal, you mean a deal that’s made just with a handshake, without money, without anything. I’m not talking about money, but it’s a deal relationship.
Shirley: Right, like these pieces that we received from you will be on display for 25 years or in perpetuity—that hardly ever happens; it probably never happens anymore—or basically as long as the person is alive and their relatives are alive, they’ll be on display, and the museum won’t sell any of them, because museums deaccess too, just like collectors do. There was almost a scandal about deaccessing a few years ago with Covid. I guess museums had more time on their hands because there weren’t so many visitors, so a lot of museums did deaccess. Also, I think it was in line with museums’ standards for a year so the museums could gain money by deaccessioning, since they weren’t making any money through visitors coming to the museum.
I know a number of people at our museum, the Indianapolis Museum of Art, now called Newfields, that were offended because the objects they had given were deaccessed. Presumably the person who gave the object is called and notified about it, but that didn’t always happen. That makes hard feelings of the donor towards the museum, and the museum doesn’t likely get anything from that particular person again.
Sharon: I have heard of deaccessioning your own collection and it sat in the back. They never made a deal, and it was kept behind the scenes.
Shirley: Exactly. It’s in storage forever, and then at some point, probably, they just sell it. So, part of the negotiation has to include in writing that whatever is given to the museum will be shown for so many years.
Sharon: How about a reserve with an auction? Do you have to put a certain floor?
Shirley: Right. Generally, the specialist at the auction house will recommend a floor. That floor may or may not be suitable to the collector, but the person at the auction house doesn’t want to make the floor too high because they rightly think if a floor is too high, people will be discouraged right at the beginning. What the people at the auction house likes to do is make the floor low to get the bidding started. Then it’s more likely that people will bid it up.
However, there’s a nuance here, too, because people bid it up more when it’s a live auction in the room and people are bidding against each other and can see each other. When it’s an online auction, it’s much more remote and isolated. People don’t get that hot adrenaline going, saying, “I want this piece and I’ll bid against the other person.” It’s cooler when it’s online.
Sharon: When you were in the room, you said you were anxious to see these pieces you prize so much. How did you feel if some of them didn’t sell? Did you feel like, “Oh well, next time”?
Shirley: Not good, and seeing them come back was also a not-good feeling because you have to pay to have them shipped out, and then you have to pay to have the ones that didn’t sell shipped back.
Sharon: As we get older, I think deaccessioning is such a big topic of conversation. Whether it’s jewelry or whatever it is, I see a lot of times when somebody has passed on, the collection is now at retail or wherever. All of this is the formal collection of ABC, as opposed to somebody else. I think this is something you really have to think about.
When you say you’re the definition of a collector, don’t we all have that area in our brain that lights up?
Shirley: We do. We all have the nucleus accumbens, our pleasure center, but what makes a collector is nature/nurture experiences. The collector has a special drive, and it manifests itself in the pleasure center lighting up when the collector finds the unique piece that he or she is looking for.
Sharon: Don’t we all have a special drive? I don’t like sports cars, for instance, but do we not have a special drive for those if that’s what lights up your pleasure center?
Shirley: Yes. Did you say you do or do not—
Sharon: I don’t, which is just as well I suppose. Besides a budget, I don’t have anywhere to keep a sports car collection.
Shirley: Some people like ballet; some people like—what else? There are so many other things: plays, Shakespeare, but every person is unique. What stimulates your pleasure center is different than what stimulates my pleasure center. Each of us does need the requirements of life. We need food, water, shelter, the basics of life. After that, we have the first-world luxury of being able to use our leisure time to do what we want, which could be collecting or going to ballets or watching Netflix.
Sharon: Could there be a hierarchy? Like yours is export porcelain, and then maybe ballets and then Netflix?
Shirley: Right. Yes, I do like all those things.
Sharon: O.K. People say I collect. I would not call myself a collector of certain things. I have more of those things than somebody else might have, but it’s still a hierarchy, I guess. I like your definition. This is totally switching the subject, but people have said a collector is a steward of something.
Shirley: Yes. We are just taking care of these objects until someone else can take care of them. Agreed, stewardship.
Sharon: It’s almost time to end my collection, but if you looked at what I have, I don’t have 20 by this designer and 20 by that designer. Would I still be a collector? Let’s say I have 20 different bracelets, but not even two by the same person.
Shirley: That’s fine. If you have a passion for the bracelets and they demonstrate something to you and you have a story behind each of them, that’s your collection.
Sharon: I guess that’s a collection. Well, thank you very much. I will look for your book on deaccessioning as we all go through that agonizing process, the different ways to deaccess a collection. Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate it.
Shirley: I’m so glad you’re bringing this to the attention of people because deaccessioning is a part of collecting. It’s a painful part, so people feel uncomfortable about it, so I think bringing attention to it is very positive. You’re very welcome, Sharon.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Shirley Mueller
Shirley M. Mueller, MD is an internationally known collector and scholar of Chinese export porcelain, as well as a physician board-certified in Neurology and Psychiatry. This latter expertise led her to explore her own intentions while collecting art, which, she discovered, are applicable to all collectors. This new understanding is the motivation for this book. Mueller not only lectures and publishes about the neuropsychology of the collector; she also was guest curator for Elegance from the East: New Insights into Old Porcelain at the Indianapolis Museum of Art (now Newfields) in 2017. In this unique exhibit, she combined export porcelain with concepts from neuroscience to make historical objects personally relevant to visitors.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When you’re a collector, determining what will happen to your collection in the future is a difficult but necessary process. Whether that means selling, donating or auctioning off your pieces, it’s hard to let go of beloved possessions. As a neuroscientist who studies how collecting impacts the brain (and as an avid collector of Chinese export porcelain herself), Dr. Shirley Mueller knows all too well how bittersweet it is to deaccession a collection. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her experience auctioning off some of her pieces; why collectors are different from dealers; and what to consider when passing on your collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Dr. Shirley Mueller. She is an M.D., Ph.D., professor and neuroscientist. She’s also an internationally known collector and scholar of Chinese export porcelain. She’s the author of “Inside the Head of a Collector: Neuropsychological Forces at Play.” She’s also been our guest on the podcast before.
She’s interested in something I have heard a lot of talk about lately, which is deaccessioning a collection. She has done research in this area and has published her research articles in Fine Art Connoisseur and Psychology Today. Today, she’ll talk to us about her own collecting experience, what makes a collector different from others and what she has found out about deaccessioning a collection. Shirley, welcome to the program.
Shirley: Thank you, Sharon. It’s great to be here.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you. What was your collecting journey like with export porcelain, which is different than a lot of us? What is export porcelain?
Shirley: It was a long journey, not a short journey. I started really in the 1980s, and I have been collecting since then. I think my largest time in terms of spending the most money and devoting the most time was probably the 1990s and early 2000s. After that time I became more selective, so I probably purchased fewer things, but of higher quality. I think most of the pieces I have I purchased early, and then as every collector knows, as we develop, we want more and more choice things.
Sharon: Right, yes.
Shirley: Which are harder and harder to find.
Sharon: And cost more money.
Shirley: Exactly.
Sharon: Were you young or older when you discovered that you’re a collector?
Shirley: I was not a young person. I was in my mid to late 30s. I found that collecting relaxed me, and that reading about this particular area, Chinese export porcelain—that is China which was made in China and exported to the west—gave me a different perspective on life. I was a physician practicing up to 80 hours a week. I couldn’t stop thinking about my patients, which is really unhealthy because one wants to be more objective about one’s patients. It’s also good to relax once in a while so you can have a fresh perspective on your patients, but that seemed to be difficult for me. When I’d go home at night, I’d be thinking about them. Quite accidentally, I picked up a book about Chinese porcelain and found that I was totally absorbed, that the world was outside of me, and I was inside my special area with this book reading about something that interested me a great deal.
Sharon: Export porcelain, is that different than regular porcelain?
Shirley: There’s Chinese porcelain. When we talk about Chinese porcelain, we’re talking about a whole array of porcelain including early porcelain, which would have been made as early as the 14th and 15th centuries. When we talk about export porcelain, we talk about porcelain made specifically for the western market, that is for the European market. Early on, it was made for a market that was more local to China, which would be Malaysia, Japan, India. Those trading routes were the water routes that China had discovered. It wasn’t until later that a ship could sail to America, and so we finally became part of the trade then. Before that, of course, a Portuguese ship was enroute around the Cape of Good Hope to go to China. All of these routes were established in time, but early on, the specific export route for Europeans was not available until after 1492.
Sharon: That’s when it became the export, because they were then sending things around in a different way.
Shirley: Yes, right. At first it was the Silk Road, some water routes. Later, in order for Europeans to join in in any major way, they had to use a water route around the Cape of Good Hope.
Sharon: What’s your definition of a collector?
Shirley: A collector is someone who has a special interest in an area that fascinates them and as a result, they want to gather objects in that area. Now, what they gather can be as simple as fruit jars. It could be the tags that say “Do Not Disturb” on your hotel room door; there’s even a collector who collects that sort of memorabilia. Or it can be high-end art that costs thousands or millions of dollars. So, the range is from very little money to a great deal of money, but all these collectors are equally passionate, except the ones that collect to make a profit only. They may have someone actually select the art for them, and then the idea is that in 10 years, they can sell it for more. The collectors that are only interested in making a profit lack the passion that the collectors who collect for love have for their objects. Those who collect to make money are dispassionate about the objects, but passionate about the money they might make. I don’t even consider them collectors.
Sharon: They’re dealers, right?
Shirley: Right. In a way, yes. Some of them will select objects themselves and others will have a third person, another person, pick for them. They even keep them in storage sometimes. They don’t even see or use the objects. But 80% of collectors collect for love, and it enriches the collector’s life. The whole idea of collecting is to make your life better. I mean, Sharon, think of going to work every day, maybe at a job you don’t especially like, eight to five, eight to six, and coming home. You may have children and family, but what else is there? There has to be something else.
For us collectors, it’s what we collect; it’s our passion. We have a collection, but the collection always requires love, care and filling in the gaps where we don’t have a specific object. The collector knows what the collector needs. It isn’t a want; it’s a need because you have to have the spread. If you collect something between 1800 and 1900 and you have a 10-year gap between 1840 and 1850, oh boy, you have to keep looking. You have to fill it.
Sharon: So, it doesn’t matter where the money is. It doesn’t matter if the money is there or not. You mentioned hotel hangtags. You have to pay the money to go to a hotel.
Shirley: Right, it can be so minor. It can be a little thing, but it has organization and there’s some thought about what to do with it. There was an exhibit in Zurich recently called “Collectomania.” They had the objects from about 20 different collectors, and one of the collectors actually did collect those doorknob hangers from hotels.
Sharon: That would be an interesting collection. Don’t we all collect? Is the brain any different for a collector?
Shirley: That’s a good question, and I wish I could answer that fully. All I can say is that for a collector, what he or she collects stimulates his or her pleasure center. When I see a piece of high-end Chinese porcelain that I don’t have in my collection and I know I’d like to have it, my pleasure center can just go wild when I see it. You could see the same object and it would mean nothing to you. You might say it’s pretty, but I don’t think—
Sharon: Yeah, I would probably not even notice it. I’d say, “Shirley, it’s nice.”
Shirley: I think what leads to this is genetics, essentially nurture, nature and experiences that lead us into a particular area that lights our fire, lights up our brain, stimulates our pleasure center. I think on one of the last programs I explained that I thought my love for Chinese porcelain came from a movie I saw in high school, “The Inn of the Sixth Happiness” with Ingrid Bergman. She was the equivalent of a missionary in China helping all these Chinese children when the Japanese were invading, and I thought, “I want to be like that person. That’s what I want to do when I graduate from medical school.” When I graduated from medical school, I had a husband and a daughter, a small child, and I couldn’t go to China because I had other responsibilities. Mao Zedong might have stood in my way a bit too.
At any rate, I think when I picked up that book about China, it’s like it was a circular pattern. I realized I can do more with China. I can learn about it; I can buy objects from it; I can associate with like-minded people who also are interested in the arts of China. There are avenues open to me to supplant my previous plan. So, that’s what happened. Since then, I’ve been to China five times, two with the invitation of the government, and probably will be going again. Now I do interact with a lot of Chinese people, and I would say to a certain degree, my original purpose has been fulfilled.
Sharon: Wow! When it comes to deaccessioning, can you let go of them?
Shirley: It’s a problem. All that love, attention, money, care, organization. I exhibit what is called the endowment effect, according to neuroeconomics. That means that what belongs to me, because of everything I’ve put into it, means so much to me, and thereby if I were to put a price on it, it would be higher than the price the market would probably put on it. I would think every piece I have would be worth thousands of dollars, and someone else might think they’d be worth hundreds of dollars.
Sharon: Can you deaccession something that has sentimentality?
Shirley: Exactly. The sentiment is there. I think that’s why people keep their family possessions even though they may not be worth a great deal. The sentiment is worth a great deal. You don’t want to throw away your family possessions like the quilt my mother made. I don’t want to ever throw it away; I want to keep it. You’re absolutely right about that.
I had an experience recently when I did sell at Christie’s in New York City, and it was so painful for me. It wasn’t just because I was selling some of my best objects, but it also was because early in the sale, nobody bid on my objects. I was a nervous wreck because my objects reflected me and my very being, my very self. If nobody was bidding on them, what did that say about me? Maybe I didn’t choose wisely. Maybe I’m not the person I think I am. Maybe I’m not as good at selecting Chinese porcelain as I thought I was. I wrote in the article in Fine Arts Connoisseur that I ended up even having to take sleeping pills for a few nights because I was so bent out of shape. I was very stressed about it. I think I may not have been as pleasant to my representative at Christie’s as I could have been, and I think that may lead to my never selling at Christie’s again.
Sharon: That’s putting yourself on the line, though.
Shirley: It is. Finally, I just had to accept that things did not sell at the high price I thought they should. I wrote in my column that what brought me peace was that I knew, in time, inflation would make the prices of all of them higher. Because porcelain is breakable, there will be fewer pieces as time goes by, and when there are fewer pieces, that will increase the price as well. I finally felt O.K. because I had to. If I didn’t accept it, I would continue to be miserable.
Sharon: Do you think all of us should think about deaccessioning before we die, before the time comes when we have to let it go and it doesn’t mean anything anymore?
Shirley: Absolutely. It is so much better if we collectors direct deaccession instead of our families. The whole estate is just given to an auction house and they take care of it. We still know the value of our pieces better than anyone else, we know where they could be sold better than anyone else, and we know what museum might want them better than anyone else. We know what family members might like them. I personally think it’s always a nice gesture to leave some things to the family that they might have even picked out. I can give them a choice of five pieces, and they could pick out whichever one they liked. It’s a lovely gesture to do that, to give part of yourself through your piece to someone else when you are reaching a certain age.
Sharon: What if you think you have time, but you don’t? Let’s say your car goes off a cliff and you can’t direct anything.
Shirley: If it’s a very costly collection, the family will fight over it. If it’s a less costly collection, they’ll just give it to an auction house that suits it. If it’s high-end, it’ll be Christie’s or Sotheby’s or Bonhams, and if it’s lower-end, it’ll be a local auction house. The sentiment will be gone. If the relatives aren’t involved any more, there’s no knowledge of the person and his or her relationship to these objects. I think you have jewelry, so you know every object has a story. Every object has an experience associated with it which makes it meaningful, not only to the person who had it, but to some family members as well.
Sharon: I’m thinking about a pin that I doubt I’ll ever wear, but it was my mother’s, the first piece of jewelry she had. I just can’t give it up. It’s just too hard to give up. What if your family doesn’t want the silver? They don’t want anything of their parents’, not because they don’t have a good relationship, but they just aren’t interested. They want experiences. What do you do then?
Shirley: If a museum won’t take it, they have to sell it, and they’re likely to get a better price than any relative who sells it. Then there will be more in the estate for the family who doesn’t want the actual collection. The other thing that can be done these days, and which is a wonderful alternative, is to put your collection on the internet so there are pictures of the collection and a record of what is in your collection. Other people who are interested in the same things then would go to your site and would be able to appreciate what you had as a collection. It would require some work. You’d have to hire a website designer and have professional pictures taken, but it is a way to document a collection without actually having to sell it. Of course, the relatives might be interested in the collector selling it because it would increase the estate assets.
Sharon: It seems like there’s a lot of fighting over collections that families have if they’re not told in advance which piece should go to which person. It can cause a lot of problems. What are your thoughts, or what actions are you taking with your collection? You said you sold at Christie’s a few years ago, but do you keep collecting?
Shirley: I have stopped collecting now that I’m writing about it so much with the book and other articles in Psychology Today. I have four pieces at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, and there will be more there. It’s possible that there will be an exhibit there that will be almost exclusively porcelain from my collection. If this exhibit takes place, there are a lot of pieces, maybe 150 at least. That means that part of my collection, which was originally 600 and now is down to 500 or so, that would bring it down to like 450.
Then I would give people I know choices about what they might like to take. In fact, my granddaughter has already expressed what she wants. It actually is in my will that she will get that piece. It’s very important to me that she gets what she specifically indicated she liked. This is exactly what she said, Sharon. She looked at the piece one day and said, “Grandma, do you think I’ll ever be able to afford anything like that for my home?” You have it. It’s yours, but I didn’t say anything.
Sharon: I’ve heard of relatives who’ve come through and said, not to me, but to other people, “Can have this when you die? After you pass away, can have this ring?” I don’t know what you do.
Shirley: When a kid does it, it’s O.K. She didn’t even say, “I want it when you die.” She just said, “Do you think I’ll ever have anything like it?”
Sharon: No, that’s different. That’s a nice way of hinting.
Shirley: But this bald-faced saying, “May I have that when you die,” that’s too much.
Sharon: Is there a difference between collecting or deaccessioning and curating? I have let go of a lot of the lower-end pieces I might have wanted when I was 20, but do I want it when I’m older?
Shirley: I would say good for you for curating your collection.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Eric Hoffman
Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.
Additional Resources:
Introductory Articles on Jade:
http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf
https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who’s extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He’s also an author. Welcome back.
But you said there’s a white jade that’s a nephrite, and then there’s another kind of white jade that’s a jadeite, right?
Eric: That’s right. When you’re talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it’s nephrite or jadeite. White nephrite is very desirable. White jadeite is kind of a waste material. In fact, it’s often dyed or polymer-treated to make it look like something it’s not.
Sharon: When you say something it’s not, what do you mean? Is it to try and fool people? Why do carvers value white jade so much?
Eric: Again, you have to distinguish between the two types of white jade. The nephrite is desirable to carvers because it can be carved thin and it’s not going to break on them while they’re carving. The jadeite is generally valued for jewelry, and people don’t want a white stone ring. They want the nice, imperial green, apple green jadeite. Back in the late 80s, around 1989, someone figured out how to polymer treat and dye white jadeite to make it look like the imperial green, desirable jadeite.
Sharon: Wow, there’s a lot to learn when it comes to stone. The white nephrite that’s called jade, when it comes to carving, it’s harder to carve. Am I right?
Eric: All carving is hard, but at least the nephrite’s not going to break on you. It’s not going to crumble. It’s not going to cleave like some minerals like fluorite, for example, might do. There are carvings in jadeite as well. It’s a little less tough and a little bit harder.
Sharon: But jadeite is what was in Burma. Maybe I’m getting confused. I’m trying to keep it straight. When you talk about the Chinese, that’s more of the nephrite jade, and when you talk about the Burmese, that’s more of the jadeite, right?
Eric: In terms of where they come from, but there’s not much of an industry in Burma carving jadeite. The jadeite comes out of the ground in Burma, and it goes immediately to China where it is made into jewelry and carvings and artifacts and so forth.
Sharon: I’m just getting confused. If somebody says to me, “This is a jade bracelet,” and it’s green, what do I ask? Where it came from, or is it nephrite or jadeite? What do I ask?
Eric: The question would be is it nephrite or jadeite. The answer will probably come back that it’s jadeite. When you see jade bangle bracelets, for example, they’re usually but not always jadeite. Usually if it’s a vivid apple green, it’s probably jadeite. If it’s a darker grayish green, it’s probably nephrite.
Sharon: What if it’s white? I’m thinking of a hand-made bangle. If they say it’s white jade, is that just treated jadeite?
Eric: They would probably not stop at white. They would try to dye it or polymer treat it to try to fool you into thinking it’s a more valuable type of jade.
Sharon: So, when somebody says to me, “This is jade,” they really mean jadeite, right? There’s nephrite, but most things are jadeite. I’m just trying to understand this.
Eric: It’s a complicated subject for sure. Most of the jewelry, but not all that you encounter, will be jadeite. There is nephrite jewelry, but it’s probably 10 to one in favor of jadeite.
Sharon: When I was talking to Elyse, she was saying that most of the time the carvings are too large to be used for jewelry, as you were saying, but there are smaller things such as beads and things like that. Is that jade jadeite? Why are they made into small items?
Eric: Jade is found in small quantities, so that’s one thing that limits the size. It’s costly material, at least the higher grades of jadeite. That would be another thing that limits the size.
Sharon: What would icy jade be? Tell us about icy jade.
Eric: That’s another interesting subject. When you’re judging jadeite, you’re looking at the color. You look at what’s called the texture, which is the fineness of the individual, microscopic crystals. It affects the kind of polish the jade can take. You look at the clarity. You’d like to find jade that doesn’t have inclusions or black spots in it. There’s also something called translucence. As jade becomes more and more translucent, you get to where you can almost read text through it. That’s called icy jade.
Sharon: Do you look at whether it’s jade or icy jade? Do you look at it under a microscope to decide if you’re going to buy it or judge it?
Eric: No, you can see right away that it’s an example of icy jade, but it’s fairly rare material. It didn’t used to be worth anything particularly more than other jades until Christie’s, some years ago in a marketing coup, changed the name from water jade to icy jade.
Sharon: Water jade to icy jade.
Eric: And it took off. In the many pieces I’ve handled over the decades, I only have one piece of icy jade.
Sharon: That’s you’ve handled or that you would be willing to part with?
Eric: Both.
Sharon: Putting icy jade aside, when you evaluate a piece of jade, do you look under a microscope at all? Is that part of your process? I don’t know what you look for.
Eric: Generally, no. Generally, a 10x loupe is about all you need to evaluate jade. For example, with a 10x loupe, you can look and see if dye is seeping into the little boundaries between regions on jadeite. The other instrument that is sometimes useful would be a refractometer, which is occasionally brought into play to distinguish between a nephrite and a jadeite.
Sharon: Somebody brought my mother a gift back from China, and she said it was jade. Would that have been an imitation jade? I don’t know what she paid for it. I don’t remember. Was it a jade jadeite versus—I mean, nephrite doesn’t sound like it’s in the picture.
Eric: It could have been any one of those. There are some fairly simple tests of hardness and specific gravity and so forth that you can run to tell what you’re looking at.
Sharon: As a collector and, as you can tell very obviously, somebody who knows nothing about jade or nephrite or Mawsitsit or icy jade, what would you say to a collector just starting out? What should they look for? What should they have with them? I got rid of my refractometer a long time ago. I said, “Forget it. I never use it.” What would they do with it?
Eric: The one thing you should always have with you is a 10x loupe. The other thing you should always have with you is a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume that any ancient jade I’m shown is a brand-new fake until proven otherwise. When you’re shown a gorgeous piece of jade jewelry, you should be a little skeptical as to whether it’s natural or has been treated in some way.
Sharon: Treated meaning coated with color to make it look a different color or a stronger color?
Eric: There have been examples of coating, but I was really referring to was what started back in 1989, with the polymer treatment of pretty much worthless white jadeite.
Sharon: How would I know? How would a collector know?
Eric: It’s a problem. At a certain price level, you would go to the GIA. They would look at your piece with an infrared spectrometer and tell you yes or no, whether it’s natural or colored or had been treated. But this test, of course, costs a few hundred dollars, so you’re probably up in the $20,000-$30,000 price range before it becomes worthwhile doing that.
Sharon: If you’re buying a less expensive piece that’s not a $20,000 piece, what would you say a collector should look for? Should we look for translucency? If they tell me something is old, how do I know?
Eric: If you don’t have a $100,000 spectrometer laying around in your basement, you should probably look for a dealer you can trust who does have access to one, either directly or through a lab like GIA.
Sharon: I can tell you’re on the East Coast if you say a basement, because who knows what a basement is out here? In fact, I did see a house with a basement, and I was floored. I thought a house with a basement in Los Angeles—
Eric: No basements in Los Angeles?
Sharon: No basements out here, or maybe just a few old, old houses. So, what attracts you? Do you like the color of the jade you buy? Whatever you put on your site, do you like it?
Eric: Yes, the colors of nephrite are more subdued and softer and more subtle, but I find them attractive. The colors of jadeite are brighter and a more vivid green. There’s also lavender, which is very attractive. So, yes, the color is one thing, and the extreme toughness of nephrite, what it lets carvers accomplish.
Sharon: If something is lavender, depending on price range, you could add polymers to make it lavender? Is it nephrite or would that be jadeite, or both?
Eric: That is jadeite, yes. Unfortunately, lavender is faked as well. Polymer-treated lavender does exist. It’s usually so garish looking that you can dismiss it right out of hand, but a really good imitation can be a little harder to tell. Once again, you rely on an infrared spectrometer to tell the difference.
Sharon: Do you have one lying around your house?
Eric: I have no infrared spectrometer.
Sharon: In the thousands of years they’ve been carving jade, whether it’s in China or Burma or wherever, is there natural lavender jade? What are the natural colors?
Eric: Oh yes, there is natural lavender. It’s a softer, more subtle lavender. It comes from Burma along with the other jades, so it does exist.
Sharon: Are there any other colors? There’s green; there’s white; there’s lavender. There are different shades of green, but what else? Is that it for all the jades?
Eric: There is a red. There’s a reddish brown, russet and black.
Sharon: And they all come from Burma and then they’re shipped off to China? Or are they in China?
Eric: The jade is all from Burma and it’s almost universally carved in China.
Sharon: So, if somebody shows me a piece—I keep going back to this example of a bangle bracelet—and somebody says it’s from China, it’s really been dug out of the ground in Burma and shipped off to China to be made into something. Is that what you’re saying?
Eric: That’s correct. If it’s jadeite, the raw material came from northern Burma and the work was almost certainly done in China.
Sharon: O.K. You must really take people aback when you start asking them questions. They probably think you’re just another person who doesn’t know anything about jade.
Eric: Once again, you want to find a dealer you have some faith in.
Sharon: Do you think you have those dealers? Because you’re a dealer, do you think the people you get your material and your carved objects from, are they trustworthy? If they call you and say, “Hey, do I have a deal for you,” do you say, “O.K., let me hear about it”?
Eric: There are dealers I buy from and there are dealers I sell to. I also sell jade books, books about jade.
Sharon: Tell us about some of the things you’re written about or the names of the books.
Eric: At one point, I might have been the number one seller of jade books in the world. I’ve written about that. I’ve sent a lot of the best ones to China. Even though the shipping cost can be horrendous for a big, heavy book, it doesn’t seem to bother anybody in China to pay it.
Sharon: You must have clients from all over the world.
Eric: Yeah, I’ve probably shipped to about 20 to 30 countries.
Sharon: Besides the books, who contacts you from all over the world to say, “Hey, I saw this object on your site”?
Eric: I get that all the time, people showing pictures. Invariably it’s imitation ancient jades.
Sharon: How about when they want to buy something from you? Do they come from all over the world?
Eric: I ship all over.
Sharon: Tell us what you’ve written about. If you’re the number one seller, people really trust what you have to say about jade. Are you writing from a mineral perspective for what to look for? What are you telling them? What are you writing about in the books?
Eric: As an engineer, it’s the technical aspect I appreciate the most. Telling jade from pseudo jade has been a side specialty.
Sharon: I shouldn’t send my bracelet from the swap meet to you because I should just assume it’s pseudo jade. That’s what you’re saying, right?
Eric: It pays to have a healthy sense of skepticism. I assume everything is fake until proven otherwise.
Sharon: How would somebody prove otherwise to you? Because it’s old and they’re brushing the dirt off of it? How would they prove it?
Eric: Perhaps the most reliable thing in dealing with ancient jades is to take a close look at the tooling techniques and looking for modern toolmarks, which would not have been used a thousand plus years ago.
Sharon: Do you often find when you’re evaluating a piece for you to buy to resell, will someone tell you, “Oh, this is made with old tools,” and then you’ll find a modern tool mark and hand it back?
Eric: There’s no handing back. A lot of times, you have to buy in a dark, dingy corner, no recourse, no refund, cash only.
Sharon: I guess I’m thinking about a big show or something like that. You’re saying they pull you aside. Do they open their raincoat or something?
Eric: At a big show, of course, the vetting has already been done for you. But that’s reflected in the very high prices, so it’s hard to buy anything at a big show for resale.
Sharon: As a collector, if we were going to buy or evaluate a piece and we don’t have our handy refractometer with us, what should we be doing in terms of the sense of skepticism? It’s like how on Antiques Roadshow you see people all the time who believe they have pre-Columbian artifacts and they’re proven to be fake. Should we look for contemporary toolmarks? Is that one tell?
Eric: You’ve opened another new subject, and that’s pre-Columbian jade. Jade was carved in Central America roughly about the time of the Chinese Zhou Dynasty. In fact, there’s some thought that perhaps there was communication between China and the jade carvers in Central America because a lot of the motifs are the same. But in Central America, at that time, they were using string and abrasives and stone files, not metal tools.
Sharon: When was this?
Eric: This would have been maybe 500 to 1,000 years ago.
Sharon: Not that long ago, really, when you compare it to China or even other places in the world.
Eric: That’s right. For the first several thousand years, China carved with the same kinds of tools before they had metals.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. Tell us a bit more about when we should come to a person like you, what we’ll find in the books and chapters you’ve coauthored. Are we only going to find technical stuff, or are we going to find history? Are we going to find anything else?
Eric: There are jade books that cover all of that. Unfortunately, they’re not all in the same book. The book I worked on most recently was by Richard Hughes in Bangkok. It’s a big, heavy book. It’s costs $200 just to mail it from Bangkok to the United States. It’s not the kind of investment everybody will make, and it does focus on the gemology aspects of both nephrite and jadeite.
Sharon: When are you going to be writing your book about history? You say there’s not a book that encompasses it all. Forget the minerology, but the history, the carving, how it’s done. When are you going to write it?
Eric: I don’t think you should wait for it. I’ve been assembling notes for about 20 years. Elyse asks that same question about once a week.
Sharon: So, I should come back to you in 10, 15 years?
Eric: 10 years would be good.
Sharon: For somebody like me, it would be an easier book to write because I don’t know the technical stuff. The history and the carving would be interesting and fast to write.
Eric: While you’re waiting the 10 years, there is actually a book that was written called “Jade Lore.” I’m not sure when it was written; possibly in the 40s. That does cover, in a very readable way, a lot of the history along with a little bit of the technical.
Sharon: But isn’t it out of print because it’s been so long?
Eric: It’s out of print, but you can find copies. It was written by a journalist who was on-site in China around the time the Qing Dynasty was falling apart, and a lot of these pieces were coming onto the market.
Sharon: When was that? How long ago?
Eric: The Qing Dynasty fell in 1911, 1912. I think this book was written either in the 30s or 40s. It was written by somebody who really knew how to write a lively story.
Sharon: Where have you been? If you’re saying you look at these objects or jewels, have you been to some of the places and seen them directly, or is it mostly when somebody brings you into a dark corner?
Eric: I’ve been to Taiwan. I have not been to mainland China. As I mentioned earlier, the Chinese really want to repatriate and bring back into the country the best jades as well as jade books. To get pieces of jade now, you pretty much have to stumble across American collections or European collections.
Sharon: I think that’s true of other pieces too. It seems that the Chinese are very interested in repatriating a lot of older jewelry. We’re being told they’re the ones who drive the prices up. Is that also true in jade?
Eric: Oh, absolutely. In fact, there’s a book on that subject as well.
Sharon: Which is?
Eric: On the whole subject of repatriating these pieces back into China.
Sharon: What do people do with them when they have them back in China?
Eric: What do they do with them in China?
Sharon: Yeah.
Eric: Some of those will end up in museums in China. Others end up in private collections of millionaires.
Sharon: Eric, I see Elyse in the corner there. You have to go pack your bags so you can get ready for your next trip to Myanmar or mainland China. You’ve been to Taiwan. Thank you very much for being with us today.
Eric: It’s a pleasure. Thank you for inviting me.
Sharon: It’s been great. We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Eric Hoffman
Eric Hoffman is an aficionado of Chinese jades for over 40 years. He is the owner and operator of Far East Gallery, which is dedicated to lovers of Chinese arts, antiques, antiquities, and—most especially—jades and snuff bottles. A member of the worldwide organizations Friends of Jade and the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, jade consultant to the Chinese Cultural Relics Association, and contributing editor to Adornment magazine, Prof. Hoffman has written many articles and reviews on this fascinating subject.
Additional Resources:
Introductory Articles on Jade:
http://hoffmanjade.com/Adornment_Jade.pdf
https://asianart.com/articles/hoffman/index.html
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Jade is a popular gemstone that even the most avid jewelry collectors often know little about. Much of the confusion stems from the fact that two distinct stones share the same name. Enter Eric Hoffman, a jade dealer and author who is an expert on identifying different types of jade. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jadeite jade vs. nephrite jade; why jade can either be extremely valuable or basically worthless; and how new collectors can find quality pieces. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today my guest is Eric J. Hoffman, who’s extremely knowledgeable about jade. Eric is the owner of Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com. He is both a seller and a buyer, and he knows a lot about what makes jade valuable. He’s also an author who has written about jade. I don’t know about you, but I know nothing about jade. So, Eric is going to tell us about his path, tell us about jade, and educate us about collecting the gem. Eric, welcome to the program.
Eric: Thank you for inviting me to talk about my favorite subject.
Sharon: Thanks for being here. Tell us about your journey. I know you didn’t start out in jade. You started out in a different field, but how did you get into jade?
Eric: I definitely did not start out in jade. Around 1970, I was on the bench designing communication circuits for satellites. My technician was an amateur minerologist, a rockhound, and he dragged me off one weekend to a gem show in Pennsylvania. At the show, they had a gem-carving contest. This was pretty much the first time I realized you could carve gemstones.
The winner of the contest was a gorgeous cat sitting on its haunches, about six or seven inches tall, carved out of tiger eye. It was on a platform that was rotating under a spotlight, so you got all the play of color off the tiger eye. It was an incredible thing to see, and it really got me interested in carved gemstones. It didn’t take too long to realize the best stone to carve was jade, and the best carvers at carving jade were the Chinese. They’ve been at it for 8,000 years. That’s how I got started.
Sharon: Tell us about jade. You mentioned you have a gallery and that you’re a dealer. I have a lot to ask you. Tell us a little about jade itself.
Eric: Jade is a very interesting gemstone. There are a lot of gemstones that go by multiple names, but I think jade is the only example where two different stones go by the same name, jade. There’s nephrite jade and there’s jadeite jade. Both of those are carved. The jadeite is more commonly seen in jewelry and the nephrite is more commonly seen in carvings and artifacts.
Sharon: So when I hear or see something about nephrite, it’s jade, no matter what you’re saying.
Eric: That’s right. Both nephrite and jadeite are properly called jade. There are a lot of jade imitators around that are not jade, but those two stones are.
Sharon: What are the differences between nephrite and jadeite? When I read about jadeite, I don’t know the difference. Is that jadeite is or is it jade?
Eric: Nephrite jade is the historically first jade. It’s the jade that has been carved for 8,000 years by the Chinese. It’s a calcium magnesium silicate, and the thing that makes it unique is that it’s the toughest of all the stones. It’s the hardest to break of all the stones.
Jadeite, which has very similar properties, is a sodium aluminum silicate. It’s a different stone. In fact, both of these stones are rocks. Technically they’re mixtures of minerals, but we call them rocks. The thing that makes nephrite so tough is its fibrous structure that’s matted together, like the fibers in the felt in a felt hat, which makes it extremely difficult to break and allows carvers to work it very thin.
Sharon: Is white jade nephrite? What is white jade? Where does jade come from? It’s in the ground, but is it in the same place in the ground? Does somebody do something with it afterward? Do they add a chemical or something?
Eric: They’re found in very different regions. Actually, they’re found all over the world, but most commonly the nephrite that the Chinese were using, at least for the past 1,000 years or so, has come from a region in western China called Hotan. The jade you’re likely to encounter in jewelry is jadeite. It comes from the northern part of Burma, and it was only in the late 1700s that it became commonly seen in China.
Sharon: When you say it’s been carved for thousands of years in China, the nephrite jade that’s in the Hotan region, what was it about this stone that attracted carvers and kept it going for so long?
Eric: The initial thing that attracted the Chinese carvers 8,000 years ago—this was even before metals came into common use in China—was the extreme toughness of jade. It could be used for hammers, axes, adzes, chisels, tools, weapons. It was like the high-tech material of its day 8,000 years ago.
Sharon: When you say that other people are carvers, I think of objects. Was it made into objects also?
Eric: It started out being made into functional objects, tools and then weapons. But it was in such high regard that it soon became kind of a kingly material used in the royal court, and it started to pick up significance other than being a practical material.
Sharon: When people started to want jade jewelry, they moved to the other kind, jadeite.
Eric: The jewelry that was used in the ancient days is not something we would probably wear today. They tend to be more like plaques worn from robes, maybe suspended from a belt. Around the late 1700s China got control of the northern part of Burma, which was a warlike tribal area, and that’s where jadeite is found. Jadeite had brighter, more attractive colors than nephrite, so it immediately caught on for jewelry in China.
Sharon: Tell us about your business with both kinds of jade, I presume. Will people pay more for the nephrite from your gallery? Will you pay more knowing you can resell it for more?
Eric: I didn’t intend to get into business. What happens if you’re a collector is you always want some particular object, so you buy the first one that comes by. Then a better one comes along maybe a year or two later, and now you’re struck with two of them. I’m constantly selling the extras and using any proceeds to acquire new items.
Jade can be a very expensive stone. We normally think of jade lumped in with the semiprecious stones, but in the highest grade, jadeite and red diamonds are the two most expensive, valuable gemstones. An extreme example of that would be the famous Barbara Hutton jade necklace, which is 27 spherical beads of jadeite. It sold a few years ago at auction for $27 million, $1 million per bead.
Sharon: Wow! Which is stronger? Are they both as strong, the jadeite and the nephrite? Can you throw both of them against a wall?
Eric: Nephrite is the tougher stone by a little bit. As I said, it’s the toughest of all the stones. In fact, it may be toughest natural substance in the world. I’m not certain about that, but it’s certainly the toughest of the stones, the hardest to break. Jadeite is a little less tough but a little bit harder, so it makes a better ring stone, for example.
Sharon: How long ago did you decide to start an online gallery, Far East Gallery and HoffmanJade.com? You’ve coauthored books about jade. How long ago did your collecting become more of a business?
Eric: Far East Gallery goes all the way back to the early 70s, which precedes the world wide web and the internet. As soon as the web arrived, I started a web-based business, which is worldwide at this point.
Sharon: You said there was something you had planned for online, another web page or more information.
Eric: Just a few days ago, in fact, I added a page on jade jewelry. This was at the urging of my wife, the jewelry historian.
Sharon: That’s Elyse Karlin, I should say.
Eric: Elyse Karlin, whose computer I’m using right now. Other than that, the website consists of jade objects, some of which can be used for jewelry and snuff bottles, which is another side interest of mine.
Sharon: When I see a piece of jewelry and the person I’m buying it from says it’s jade, should I ask if it’s nephrite or jadeite? Should I assume it’s jadeite or nephrite? I don’t know what I should do.
Eric: It always pays to ask. If it’s a carving, it could be either. If it’s jewelry, it’s probably jadeite, but there is also nephrite jewelry.
Sharon: I think I told you that I was in Santa Fe, New Mexico a few years ago before Covid, and somebody was trying to sell me Mawsitsit earrings. I had never heard of Mawsitsit. They told me it was a very unusual kind of jade and it was going to overtake jade in a sense. Since I knew nothing about it, I didn’t know if they were giving me a line. Tell us about Mawsitsit.
Eric: If it was a good price, you probably should have bought them. Mawsitsit is a very interesting stone. It’s kind of a cousin of jadeite. It has a lot of jadeite in it, but also some other components such as kosmochlor and other minerals. It’s found in only one tiny, little region in Burma. It’s sort of a vivid green with black streaking through it.
Sharon: If I remember—this was years ago— it was sort of black with blue and green. Is Mawsitsit something special? If I talked to a person who really knows jade and I say Mawsitsit, do they know what I’m talking about?
Eric: I would say probably yes. It’s a desirable stone in its own right, although it is technically not jade. It has a lot of jadeite in it.
Sharon: I think it’s the first and only time I have ever encountered this stone. When you say it’s harder than any known natural substance, is it harder than diamonds? You usually think of diamonds as the hardest thing there is.
Eric: Actually, what I said is it’s tougher, which means it’s harder to break, but it’s not especially hard. Hardness is the resistance to scratching, and of course diamond is at the very top of the scale. Nephrite comes in at about a 6.5 on the Mohs scale, which means it’s just barely good enough to make a good ring stone and not get scratched up.
Sharon: You see both kinds, the jadeite and the nephrite, in the ground. Diamonds are cubic. Are they cubic? I can’t remember. Shows you what I know. What form is it? Is it in squares or cubes?
Eric: Jadeite is usually mined out of the ground mostly in northern Burma. The nephrite forms up in the mountains, at least for the past thousand years. If you go back 7,000 or 8,000 years, there were sources of nephrite in China itself. But for the past few thousand years, it forms up in the mountains, tumbles down the mountains in the course of time, and bounces down the rivers and gets rounded off into pebbles or cobbles that are plucked out of the rivers in Hotan one at a time.
Sharon: 8,000 years ago in China, they would go up and mine this nephrite, and today they just pick it up when it comes down the mountain? Is that what you’re saying?
Eric: They were always picking it out of the rivers because river jade, or alluvial jade, is more desirable than mountain jade. But because jade is so tough, the things they have to do to wrench it from the mountain are so destructive to the jade that it puts cracks through it and creates all kinds of problems for the carver.
Sharon: Tell us about your business today. Do people call you and say, “I have this carving or this piece of jade from a thousand years ago. Are you interested?” Tell us what you would do when you encounter that.
Eric: That does happen sometimes. Pretty much all of my customers come via the website, and we have discussions back and forth by email until finally a sale is made. It is very hard to evaluate ancient pieces from pictures or jpgs alone, particularly so since there is quite an active industry in China cranking out fakes.
Sharon: Is there an industrial use for jade?
Eric: Not that I can think of. It seems to me that it would make a good bearing material for things like ship propellers, but as far as I know, it’s never been used in that regard.
Sharon: So, you have the opportunity to touch an object or get your hands on it to see if it’s an antique or not. What do you do when somebody from China contacts you and says, “I like the piece you have on your site”? What do you do?
Eric: Oddly enough, I send a lot of jade back to China. They’re very interested in repatriating old pieces, so when I get them, a lot of it goes back to China where it started out.
Sharon: But you have the opportunity to see if it was actually an older piece as opposed to a fake.
Eric: Unfortunately, there’s no scientific way to date a piece of jade, so it does come down to my experience and opinion and the opinions of others. There are some scientific tests for other kinds of antiques like ceramics, but not for jade.
Sharon: Can you tell us about the articles you’ve authored? You’ve coauthored two articles that are in very well-known books. There’s a book about to come out and one book that has already come out and seems to be very well-regarded. Can you tell us about those?
Eric: One of the things I love to talk about is jade versus pseudo jade. Jade has so many different imitators, and learning to distinguish one from the other is a main interest of mine. The articles in the books go into that. The first three jades I bought when I was starting out in the early 1970s were not jade. I made my mistakes early. I guess as Elyse says, in jewelry, if you’re not making mistakes, you’re not buying enough jewelry.
Sharon: So, that means I should go out and buy more then. How did you find out they were pseudo? Did somebody tell you?
Eric: No, that would be too simple. You can run some fairly easy tests, such as hardness testing and specific gravity or density testing. That helps rule out many of the pseudo jades.
Sharon: What is it that attracts you? Why jade? Why not another stone? You saw the tiger eye and fell in love with it. Why didn’t you just keep all the tiger eye?
Eric: There are a lot of wonderful carvings done in tiger eye, which is a chalcedony. It’s a little bit harder than jade. It’s nowhere near as tough as jade, so it cannot be carved as finely and thinly. You can’t do the various things that are done with the jade material because of its extreme toughness.
Sharon: Is it because you thought, “I have to get it back to Los Angeles. It’s easier. It’s not going to break”? Is that why you brought that to Los Angeles? I guess I still don’t have an answer to why jade.
Eric: I guess the answer to that is that I’ve always been interested in the Chinese decorative arts, and when it comes to carving, the Chinese always pick jade. They have carved other stones along the way, but jade is always at the top of the heap.
Sharon: Is that because there’s a lot more jade in China? I guess I think of different things, not so much the stones, when it comes to China.
Eric: No, there are a lot more other kinds of stones in China than jade. Jade is not particularly rare in the average grades, but it’s more uncommon than the jade imitators.
Sharon: But you said it’s not in the lower grades or lower echelons. It’s not as expensive or as valued. It’s the white jade that’s valued by carvers.
Eric: White jade is an interesting subject. In the case of nephrite, white jade is very desirable and very much in fashion right now. A particular kind of white jade called mutton fat jade is highly sought out and very expensive. Now, when you switch to the other jade, jadeite, white jade is almost worthless. In fact, it wasn’t too long ago that white jade in Burma was crushed and used as a road fill. That’s how little was thought about it. Yet that same stone in its very highest grade formed those million-dollar bead necklaces. I don’t think there’s any other stone that has such a wide range of value.
Sharon: It was used to be crushed for roads at the lower end, and at the higher end, it was used in very expensive jewelry. That’s what you’re saying?
Eric: At the highest end, you have the Barbara Hutton necklace at $1 million per bead. At the lowest end, it was crushed and used for driveways and road fill. It’s the same stone, jadeite.
Sharon: But you said there’s a white jade that’s a nephrite, and then there’s another kind of white jade that’s a jadeite, right?
Eric: That’s right. When you’re talking about white jade, it makes a big difference whether it’s nephrite or jadeite.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jessica Collins
Jessica Cadzow-Collins fell in love with jewelry and gems aged 18, whilst working as an intern at Sotheby’s, and trained as a professional gemmologist. For over 30 years since then, she’s held senior roles in fine jewelry at luxury retailers such as Harrods, Garrard and Asprey where she helped all kinds of amazing clients with their precious pieces, from tiaras to engagement rings, all over the world.
Jessica is now a personal jeweler. She started a business, Jessica May Jewels, to help people find their dream designs and remodel their unworn pieces. Using her high-jewelry know-how, she creates bespoke pieces that don’t compromise on luxury, quality, service, value or ethics.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
When Jessica Cadzow-Collins isn’t designing jewelry, repurposing her clients’ old jewelry, or developing her own line of jewelry, she’s talking to people about jewelry on her podcast, Inside the Jewel Vault. A lifelong jewelry lover, Jessica joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it means to be a personal jeweler; what she would include in her fantasy jewel vault; and why wearing jewelry is distinctly human. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Jessica Cadzow-Collins speaking to us from London. She is the founder and designer of Jessica May Jewels. She is also the creator and host of the podcast Inside the Jewel Vault. Welcome back.
If you’re at a party, how do you describe what you do? If somebody says, “What do you do,” what do you say?
Jessica: At the moment, I say I’m a personal jeweler and I can make your jewelry wearable or make it new or make the jewels of your dreams. That’s what I say if I’m asked what I do. [REPEAT OF ENDING OF PART ONE]
Sharon: What’s kept your attention about jewelry for decades? What’s kept your attention?
Jessica: It’s the connections. It’s the story. It’s everything that ripples below a piece of jewelry. It could be a treasured gift that reminds you of the people that gave it to you. It could remind you that you’re loved, that somebody loves you for it. For instance, I wear my signet ring my father gave me. Actually, it’s not a proper signet ring. You can see it’s just a pinky ring, but that was me being different when I was 18. Every time I put that on in the morning, I think of my father and my connection with him. It could be a piece you bought yourself to celebrate an achievement or a promotion, something that celebrates a brighter goal or future you’re dreaming of.
There are all of these things connected with a piece of jewelry, and when I’m involved in creating that piece or selling that piece or finding that piece for somebody, I feel a little part of that story as well. That’s what I love. The other thing that is so special about jewelry is it’s not like a piece of fashion or an accessory. These are pieces that endure, that will travel with you all your life. Then one day it will travel along with somebody else, which I think is so special.
Sharon: It is special, especially when you look at an estate piece or an antique piece that’s been owned by several people. You want to know the story behind it.
Jessica: Oh, absolutely. I love those stories. Sometimes I’ve recreated them into a piece. For instance, for one lady, I had three diamond rings that had been worn by her grandmother, her mother and herself in her previous marriage. She wanted to combine all of these symbols of strength, these symbols of strong women in her life, and turn them into a ring for her right hand. It was a power ring.
That was a wonderful thing to do. Each gem was a different style of cut. Her grandmother’s ring was an old mine cut, a rather brilliant cut. Then she had an oval cut in her own engagement ring, so they’re all totally different. I created a rough mount around the ring for her, which was really unusual and really suited her. She was from this strong line of Caribbean women. She was a wonderful client to work with. All my clients are wonderful because they have their own stories and their own futures as well. I love my job, as you can tell.
Sharon: I can tell. Do you ever feel stymied, like, “What am I going to do with this?”
Jessica: Yes, sometimes I do. What I tend to do is say, “Look, I need a week or so and I’ll get back to you.” When you’ve got a little problem, and you let it sit there and play around in your mind, quite often—I don’t know about you, Sharon, but I find just before I go to sleep is the time when my brain sends me all the pictures of things I should be designing or need to design. That’s my good time. Quite often I will see the piece in my mind’s eye. Then I just need to sketch it and work on it with the CAD artist I use and we’re off.
Sharon: Have you ever presented something and people said, “That’s not really what we had in mind”? Or do people not know what they have in mind?
Jessica: Yeah, people are different, aren’t they? Some people are really good at taking a sketch off the page and seeing it and playing with it in their mind’s eye and turning it into 3D. Other people, you have to do a full-on set of renders of different pieces, which is brilliant because 3D technology is so good now. I can send them a 3D CAD so they can touch the screen on their phone.
In fact, I’ve done that for an engaged couple. He wanted to propose to his girlfriend, and we didn’t have time to go around and find the right diamond and sketch out the right mount and everything. So, we adapted a CAD sketch I already had and tweaked it to make it into something he thought she would want. He proposed with it on his phone. That was the best; I loved that. It was a digital proposal, and she said yes. He didn’t need to change it that much. That was certainly a wonderful way of doing things. You see, anything is possible.
Sharon: It is possible. I like that term, digital proposal. I bet that’s a term you can coin and do something with. I’ve never heard it before. Can you imagine life without jewelry?
Jessica: No, Sharon, I can’t. I’m sure you know this, Sharon, but humans are the only beings on the planet that have draped themselves in things they find attractive. If you go back all the way to early man’s beginnings, 90,000 years ago in the Blombos Caves in South Africa, you find pieces of jewelry that are made from shells from the coast a few miles away from where the cave system was. It’s a deeply human need, I think, to carry something that gives you good luck, like an amulet, or makes you special. It could just be because these people find something lovely on a beach and think it’s beautiful, and they want to carry it with them. It’s such a human thing. I personally can’t imagine a life without some sort of jewelry.
Sharon: Do you think people want jewelry, or do they come to you because they want something valuable or sentimental? What do you see on your podcast?
Jessica: The most valuable vault from the podcast was by Josie Goodbody. She had the Red Moussaieff Diamond in there, which is probably one of the most expensive gems on the planet. Arguably, there are some in the Smithsonian Museum in Washington that could be also. I’ve also been lucky enough to go around the treasury in the Kremlin. That’s closed to westerners now, obviously. That was a staggering display of gems. There are some stupendous pieces in people’s choices. That’s the fun of it; it’s a game. The podcast is a game. Select six pieces you would put into a fantasy jewel vault. I wonder, Sharon, what you would put in.
Sharon: I don’t know. That’s an interesting question. I would throw the question back at you. You ask everybody in the world what’s inside their jewel vault.
Jessica: I haven’t asked you, but there you go. I have now asked you, so maybe you can tell me what you want. I definitely like the Moussaieff Red as well. Alisa Moussaieff was my boss for a short while, and she’s an amazing connoisseur of gems and the very best of the best you can find. Goodness knows what she’s got in her own personal safe, her private safe. I love color. I love diamonds, so when you put the two together in a spectacular large stone like the five carats the Moussaieff Red is, that would be something else. I’ve never seen it in the flesh, but I’d love to.
I think the other piece I would want is the Koh-i-Noor, the diamond that’s in the Queen Consort’s crown. We’re going to see a lot of that in May during the coronation here in Britain. The Koh-i-Noor has a fantastically tangled, bloody history. It really is the gem of kings. I would love to have it, but not the way it was cut by Prince Albert in 1852. I’d want it cut in the traditional Indian rose style so it would look like a mountain. So, there’s those two.
There was a sea green diamond I bought early on in the 90s, before colored diamonds were a big thing. It was very inexpensive at the time. It was probably around 10,000£ or so, and I knew I could sell it for a better price in New York. I flew with it over the Atlantic to New York to sell it there. It was so valuable we had to insure it. Our insurers wouldn’t let me travel without an armed bodyguard when I got to New York. Remember, New York was quite a scary place in the 90s, especially if you were young and female and carrying a large amount of goods. My insurance company insisted on having an armed bodyguard, so I asked my friends in the trade how to find an armed bodyguard when I went to New York with this diamond. They said, “Phone the NYPD. There’s always an off-duty detective who can act as an armed bodyguard.” I did that, and when I flew over with this sea-green diamond and landed at the customs desk on entry, there were these bodyguards who looked just out of central casting. These off-duty NYPD officers were chewing their gum with their hats on and holding a paper cup for coffee. I got into their car and we set off. I said, “So, which one of you is packing the piece?” The smaller of the two said, “I’m not, but he is.” My bodyguard had an armed bodyguard.
So, I left the sea-green diamond there in New York. I flew back without any bodyguards, but that was so much fun. The sea-green diamond was the most beautiful color. It sold for a fortune. I would love that stone because it’s my fantasy. I would love to have that stone. So, those are my three.
Sharon: That sounds gorgeous.
Jessica: It was the most beautiful color, quite indescribable, really. Sea green is the best I can come up with. It was quite a big stone. It was just under five carats and a radiant cut. It was just gorgeous.
Sharon: That’s an interesting question. I was thinking about what I would choose. I wouldn’t choose very many gems. I love color, but if I think about my own jewelry, I’m not a gem person. I think somebody once said, “What can you say about a gem? You could say it’s big; it’s large, it’s this cut; it’s that cut. Where is the artistry?”
Jessica: I know what you mean, yes. That’s a good point. There is artistry in how you would set it. For me, it would be fun to look at this stone and think of all the things you could do with it.
Sharon: Have you ever had somebody come and say, “Just do whatever you want with this jewel. I don’t like any of the jewels in this jewel box. Just do what you want. My mother-in-law gave me this stuff and I just don’t like it. Do whatever you want, however you think it should be”?
Jessica: Yes, sometimes ladies say that. More often than not, there will be something obvious you could do with it—well, something obvious to me. Probably not obvious to them at all, because they look at me and say, “Can we make a pair of earrings out of this brooch?”
But I had a lovely customer just last month who had a number of antique pieces, including a big diamond brooch she never wore because most people don’t wear brooches anymore. She also had a big cluster ring she never wore either. There’s no money in these big brooches, so I literally cut up the brooch into a pair of detachable drop earrings. Out of the cluster ring, we made a negligée pendant with the rest of the brooch, and it really worked.
So, out of two pieces of jewelry she never wore and one that was really worth nothing—even the secondhand market isn’t that good for these brooches—she had something she could wear, and it looked amazing on her. Should she ever want to put the pendant drop into a ring again, she can easily do that because all we did was carefully slice the shank off the band and leave the head intact. Although she couldn’t put the brooch back together, I can’t imagine the brooch ever being worn again as a brooch. It was a big Victorian lump of a thing. So, she was thrilled by that. I did a number of other little things for her as well. She completely transformed her jewel box into pieces she could wear and have fun with now.
Sharon: You must have been ecstatic.
Jessica: Yeah, she’s very happy. It’s nice. What I love is seeing people’s snaps. She sends a couple of pictures when she’s all dressed up in new jewels, and that’s always fun. I love working with young girls. I’ve done a dozen rings for people who’ve inherited their granny’s jewelry, and it’s really fun for these girls in their teens and early 20s to be designing jewelry. It’s such a fun thing to do, isn’t it?
Sharon: Is it because they come with more of an idea when they’re younger? Or can you turn it into something you relate to more? What is it?
Jessica: It’s making something for them that will be with them forever, that they can hold every day and think about. It’s a little bit of them and a little bit of the past all in one piece. I find that very invigorating.
Sharon: What do you like about being a podcaster? What holds your attention there? Is it finding guests? Is it the human connection?
Jessica: I think you’re absolutely right, Sharon. It’s definitely the human connection. Tell me, is the reason you do your podcast so that you can chat with people?
Sharon: I like the term you used, passion project. It’s a passion project. It’s the same thing you’re saying. What reason do these people have to talk to me, really? It’s a passion project. I think that confuses people because I don’t have a jewelry store; I’m not a designer; I don’t have a brand.
Tell us about the brand you’re developing. Is it a Jessica-made brand?
Jessica: No, it has its own name. That’s the amazing thing, Sharon. I’ll start at the beginning. The reason it’s coming together is because enough of my friends said to me, “I’m looking for a gift or something for me, but I don’t want to spend half a year’s salary. I want to spend a few hundred pounds, but I want something that’s going to last. I don’t want to buy plated jewelry, like all those other repetitive designs out there online. I want something that’s quality, something you could make me, Jess. Something top-rated, top quality, built to last but beautifully designed and completely different from everything else.” So, I thought, “Well, enough of them have asked me to do this for them.” I felt we could have a business here.
So, I’ve been putting together this brand. It is taking a very long time because I want all the sourcing to be transparent and totally traceable. I want these things that are at the top of my agenda, the ethical, sustainable sourcing story, to be very clear. I think that is the foundation the brand needs to sit on because my customers for this brand are younger people. They’re younger men and women who are looking for jewels that reflect their own spirit, something that’s different, bold, contemporary and made with fine jewels, fine materials, fine metals. The bit I’m adding to it is the fact that everything is ethically sourced.
Sharon: Wow! That’s a lot. You have to really think about the pricing and who’s going to produce it. Between launching your own business and the podcast and everything, has it allowed your inner entrepreneur to blossom?
Jessica: I love it, Sharon, thank you. An inner entrepreneur. Yes, I suppose so. For so many years, I was working for other brands. Now I have to dig deep and create a brand from nothing. It isn’t going to be named after me. It has a name we’re still working on. It’s a strong name. It’s got a story behind it. As soon as I’m ready with it, I will tell you, Sharon.
Sharon: Yes, I’d love that. When do you expect to launch this?
Jessica: We’ll do a soft launch in the late spring. I was hoping to get some pieces ready for a launch on International Women’s Day, but it’s also a brand for kids. I have two sons. My eldest son is quite conservative; he just wears a signet ring, but my youngest son loves jewelry. He wants new pieces. He wants an index finger ring; he wants a pearl necklace. So, it’s a multipurpose jewelry line, and it can be worn by girls and boys.
I want a few pieces I can launch in the spring. It was going to be launched on International Women’s Day, but because of the gender-fluid aspect of it, that’s not that appropriate. It doesn’t matter if it launches a bit later, so long as I’ve got a few pieces that will do the brand justice. I don’t have to have all the pieces out at the same time. That can come as months roll by, but I’m very much hoping I’ll have some pieces for the spring.
Sharon: Wow! We’re at the end of 2022 right now. You must be very busy. I know it’s a very busy time of year. It’s hard to get ahold of guests and that sort of thing. Are you busy with a lot of people coming to you?
Jessica: Yes. I don’t know how to say it, but it is Christmas, so it’s crazy. The thing I love about Christmas is that it’s a date we all know.
Sharon: Yeah, that’s true.
Jessica: It’s at the same time every year, yet these last few days before Christmas are bonkers. It’s just hilarious. So, yeah, I’m working through the night and through the weekend. Finally, I’ll pack up my digital shop and take a long break for Christmas and New Year’s.
Sharon: I would guess that people say at the last minute, “Oh my gosh, I have to get something. I’d better talk to Jessica about designing something because I don’t have anything.”
Jessica: There’s nothing I can do now about designing something new, but I’ve definitely got some pieces that have longer delays than I would have liked, or people have thought of them a little bit too late ahead of time for me to be totally relaxed about it. I’ve got some last-minute orders that are still in the workshop that I need to get out within the next couple of days. Here in the U.K., we’ve been blighted by rail strikes and tube strikes and post strikes, every sort of strike. So, we’ve had to be quite inventive. I feel like a little human shuttle darting around with jewels.
Sharon: It must be very challenging. Good luck. I will let you get back to your drawing and everything else you have to do for the holidays. Thank you so much for being with us today. I really appreciate it.
Jessica: Sharon, it’s been a joy. It’s been so nice speaking to you. I’m so honored to be a guest on your show. Thank you very much for asking me.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jessica Collins
Jessica Cadzow-Collins fell in love with jewelry and gems aged 18, whilst working as an intern at Sotheby’s, and trained as a professional gemmologist. For over 30 years since then, she’s held senior roles in fine jewelry at luxury retailers such as Harrods, Garrard and Asprey where she helped all kinds of amazing clients with their precious pieces, from tiaras to engagement rings, all over the world.
Jessica is now a personal jeweler. She started a business, Jessica May Jewels, to help people find their dream designs and remodel their unworn pieces. Using her high-jewelry know-how, she creates bespoke pieces that don’t compromise on luxury, quality, service, value or ethics.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
When Jessica Cadzow-Collins isn’t designing jewelry, repurposing her clients’ old jewelry, or developing her own line of jewelry, she’s talking to people about jewelry on her podcast, Inside the Jewel Vault. A lifelong jewelry lover, Jessica joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it means to be a personal jeweler; what she would include in her fantasy jewel vault; and why wearing jewelry is distinctly human. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, my guest is Jessica Cadzow-Collins speaking to us from London. She is the founder and designer of Jessica May Jewels. She is also the creator and host of the podcast Inside the Jewel Vault. She’s a gemologist and a designer, and she has worked with many well-known jewelry houses. Jessica, welcome to the program.
Jessica: Thank you so much for having me, Sharon. It’s so lovely to be your guest. It’s nice to be on the other side of the process instead of being a host for a change.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. When you were a child, were you interested? Were you artistic?
Jessica: Yes, I was artistic. I was also quite academic. I was an all-arounder. I grew up in Scotland. I was educated in Edinburgh, and I had my heart set on being an art dealer as a teenager. That’s what I wanted to do more than anything. So, as soon as I could, I got into my old, beaten VW and drove all the way from Edinburgh to Florence. I stayed with the Prince and Princess Corsini as their paying guest, and I did studies in Italian and history of art.
Luckily, I managed to win a job as an intern at Sotheby’s. I had a very menial job filing, but the desk next to mine was the jewelry expert’s. She would value the pieces that came into the Florence office, and I would send them to London if they were good, or New York if they were very good, or they’d go onto Rome. That is how I got into jewelry. It was so amazing seeing these piles of new pieces. Every day fresh pieces would come in, and we would stand and talk about the age of them, the condition, the composition, and the gems.
She said, “You shouldn’t do paintings. You shouldn’t be an art dealer. You should do this.” So, I did. I phoned my father that evening and said, “I’m going to London. I’m going to study gemology,” because that is what she told me she had done. So, there it was. It was just fate.
Sharon: You were an art history student and then you went into jewelry?
Jessica: Yes, that is the way it worked.
Sharon: There are not that many courses for jewelry history except gemology. Tell us about that.
Jessica: I went to London. What I loved about studying gemology was it was glamorous and academic and unusual. None of my friends were doing it. At the time, the only course I could take was in London, in the city. It was night school. I was only 18 at the time. I was studying gemology at night, and I had to get a job in the day. So, I won a job again. It was a long process, but I got a job basically as a tea girl.
I was in the trading department of this old jewelers on Bond Street called Collingwood. Really, from the get-go, I was expected to trade. I was trading loose stones and antique period jewelry. I would take a bag of jewels and go to Miami and New York and Boston, all over Europe, trading, buying and selling jewels for a 10% profit or whatever, just as an antique dealer would. I wasn’t a very good dealer, I have to say. I was too keen on being able to sleep at night and a bit too fair to be a very good dealer. That’s how I ended up in retail in the end.
Sharon: You say it’s glamorous. I don’t understand why gemology or gems are glamorous.
Jessica: Oh, it is. I loved it, absolutely loved it, because I was surrounded by gems in my day job, and in the evening, I was understanding how they were formed in the earth’s crust and the processes they take to go from the mine to the market. It was fascinating. I absolutely loved the whole world. I’ve been very happy in this world now for 34 years—no, 35 years. I was definitely in the right job.
Sharon: But you said you couldn’t sleep at night because you wanted to make sure everybody was treated fairly.
Jessica: I think a really good dealer would need to be a little bit sharp. I think I was a bit too concerned about being fair.
Sharon: Most of the time, dealers say they have a hard time letting go of the things they acquire.
Jessica: Yes, I know that feeling, but this is perhaps why the job I do is perfect. I’m making something for someone. When they’re happy and their face lights up, you know you’ve done a good job. That’s a joy. That’s the thing I love most.
Sharon: So, people come to you to have things designed, or do you design them and put them out?
Jessica: That’s right. That’s what I do now, but most of my career I was running departments or boutiques on Bond Street for all the first-class brands, especially those with royal service like Asprey and Garrard. That was my world.
Sharon: Wow! When did you decide to go out on your own? What was the catalyst for that?
Jessica: It was perfect. I had just begun a new project, a very exciting major project, and then Covid came and everything went dead. My new job collapsed. It just fell in on itself. I think that was the catalyst for me saying, “Well, do you know what? This is the sign to set up my own business I’ve been waiting for. Let’s just get on with it.” So, it all kicked off during Covid at the same time as starting the podcast.
Sharon: So, that was the catalyst.
Jessica: Yes.
Sharon: Covid was the catalyst.
Jessica: Yes. I seized the opportunity, because suddenly the whole world seemed in flux. It was an exciting time if you could seize that wave and roll with it and see where you went. I must say I’ve been very happy working for myself as my own boss ever since.
Sharon: So, the podcast is Inside the Jewel Vault.
Jessica: Yes.
Sharon: Tell us about it. It’s so different. Did it take you a while to come up with the name? Tell us, what does the podcast entail?
Jessica: Thank you for mentioning the podcast. It is a passion project of mine. It was during Covid. It was shortly after the first spring lockdown in 2020. I’m lucky I have friends who are very talented, including my neighbor, Lizzie Wingham. She’s a digital editor who’s worked for the BBC. She’s very well regarded, and she has an interest in jewelry herself. I was talking to her over the garden fence, and she said, “I’ve been looking, and there are no podcasts on the subject of jewelry that really spark my imagination as a specialist. Jessie, you should do one,” and I said, “Oh, my goodness, I’ve never done a podcast in my life. I have no idea what to do.” She said, “Well, I’ll help you. I’ll be your producer.” The tea ended and the wine came out, and we began a project.
The idea for the format is just to ask our guests questions. The guests are drawn from across the jewelry world. They’re people who have good stories to tell, obviously, but are exceptional in their own field. When you start to look at the world of jewelry, it’s huge. There are not only designers, but there are scholars; there are dealers; there are minerologists; there are curators. The list is so huge. That’s how it all came about.
The idea was to ask these people to come up with six gems. They could be ones they’ve worked with. They could be ones they’ve owned themselves or handled, or maybe handled once and then lost. They could just be pieces they lust after. It’s like the jewelry equivalent of Desert Island Discs, which is a very popular BBC radio show.
Sharon: What is it called?
Jessica: It’s called Desert Island Discs. It’s one of the staple BBC radio shows in the U.K.
So, we just got started, and it was a wonderful excuse for me to speak to some of my heroes. We’ve uncovered all sorts of ancient gold and royal gems and fabulously valuable diamonds and goodness knows what else. Lizzie’s job is to turn all of those recordings I enjoy doing into produced and intelligent podcasts that follow a good line. That’s what we’ve been doing.
Sharon: The name is such an unusual idea, Inside the Jewel Vault. Did you come up with it over wine, or did you have to really think about it? Tell us how you did it.
Jessica: After a glass of wine, certainly. Good ideas seem very compelling then, don’t they? It just came about while we were chatting about it. As I said, it sort of follows the format of Desert Island Discs, where you speak to a guest. In that radio show, they select eight tracks or pieces of music that mean something to them, whereas we are selecting six gems or jewels that really turn them on.
Sharon: How often do you have a new episode—I call it an episode—or a new person?
Jessica: I don’t do this full time. It’s not a well-oiled machine like yours, Sharon, I’m afraid. You’ve done nearly 200, I think, over the last four years, haven’t you? Whereas I’ve only done about 40. There are a couple more in the can waiting for approval and final edits, but we’re a bit slower off the mark than you are, Sharon.
Sharon: How do you choose a guest, first of all? You must know so many people. How do you choose the guest?
Jessica: I have to admit that I don’t know the guests. Quite often it’s a cold call or a cold email, I suppose. They’re somebody who is lighting up their own corner of the world of jewelry. I’ve yet to ask an auctioneer; I’ve yet to ask a foreign collector; I’ve yet to ask all sorts of people on my dream list. 2023 will be the year I start sending out these cold emails again.
Sharon: What’s the reaction you get when you ask a guest to be on Inside the Jewel Vault? How much time do you give them? It can take a while.
Jessica: It’s entirely down to the guest. Most people are so busy, especially the people that I’ve been speaking to. They tend to fly around the world as it has opened up. When I first started, it was rather easy because people were sitting at home. They were able to sit by their laptop and start typing, and everyone got so good at Zoom. It’s a bit harder to track people down and to twist their arm enough for them to tell me what six pieces they would put into their fantasy jewel vault, but it is great fun. I love doing it.
Sharon: It sounds wonderful. I’ve listened to it and it’s very interesting. The guests you choose, is it because they do something original or they’re well-known? You could always choose a diamond dealer. You don’t, but how do you choose a guest?
Jessica: That’s a really good idea, Sharon. I must speak to a diamond dealer. That’s one I haven’t spoken to yet. I have a set of running lists that I keep adding to. It’s just finding the opportunity to approach people. It’s very much a passion project, but I must admit it: I do need to give it a bit more time and attention. I think we only manage about one a month at the moment, and it’s quite a slow process. I need to work a bit harder on it, but there’s always so much to do. That’s my excuse. I’m always so busy looking after my clients, making their pieces. Also, I’m about to launch my own brand, which is taking up an awful lot of time. It’s very exciting, but also very hard work.
Sharon: So, you have your own jewelry brand in addition to retail stores. Tell us how you work right now.
Jessica: At the moment, I’m a personal jeweler, which means I take care of people’s pieces. I can repair or upgrade their existing pieces or entirely start again from scratch. I make engagement rings. I make new pieces out of old pieces. It’s really down to the customer. Quite often, people come to me with their jewelry box and say, “I hardly wear any of these pieces, but so-and-so gave me this and my mother-in-law gave me that. I can’t get rid of them, but I don’t wear them. What do we do with them?” I’ll transform them into pieces they can wear and absolutely love wearing, pieces that are adaptable and suit their lifestyle. I help people with all sorts of things, from signet rings from their 18th birthday to their first diamond pieces in their 20s through to push presents and all the rest of it. Everything a person would do, I do, and I love that.
Sharon: How do people learn about your services?
Jessica: It’s word of mouth and the fabulous Google. I don’t do any advertising. It just seems to be luck that people find me through searching or asking.
Sharon: Your website is very nice and clean and easy to read. Your LinkedIn is also. I think it’s great what you’re saying. If I were looking for an original jeweler, if I were looking for an engagement ring, I might go to you and say, “I have no idea, and I have no stone or anything.” What would you do?
Jessica: If it was for you, then it makes it a whole lot easier. Sometimes I have to work with the groom or friends of the bride to be. We have to work out what she loves. Sometimes it’s crystal clear because she’s seen a ring that is her dream ring. Actually, a lot of brides do get involved in designing their dream rings. Occasionally I’ve done some complete, total surprise dream rings, and they’ve been wonderful to do. For others I’ve worked very closely with the couple, and we produce something together that encapsulates their unique love for each other and their story and all their hopes and dreams. It’s the most wonderful process.
Sharon: That’s a lot to have in one ring, a lot to communicate in one piece of jewelry. Tell us what’s been the most surprising with Inside the Jewel Vault when people come to you. What are the surprises you’ve had, things that have been different?
Jessica: Oh, gosh! I’ve had such a broad array of different guests. I think any of the pieces Darren Hildrow chose are quite extraordinary. He chose a piece you wouldn’t normally consider a piece of jewelry. It was more like a piece of body art, to be honest.
Sharon: What’s his name? I haven’t heard of this person.
Jessica: He’s a jewelry entrepreneur called Darren Hildrow, and he chose one piece that was extraordinary. It’s called Rocket Man by Walter van Beirendonck, which is more like a piece of body art. That was pretty surprising.
Some of the guests have chosen stunning pieces that everyone would know of, but other guests have chosen pieces that are by smaller designers. That’s always fascinating to hear. We did a lovely broadcast with the GIA’s field gemologist in Bangkok, Wim Vertriest, and he chose some amazing gems that he had stories of throughout his career. The wonderful thing about gems and jewels is that there are stories attached to almost everything. It’s the human connection that makes jewelry so special. I think the Rocket Man was the most unusual case, but everything else is particularly special because it does have a story.
Sharon: I’m curious if people ask you if you look at it differently because of your background. You’re Scottish from Edinburgh, and then you went to Italy. You must speak Italian. Do people ask if you have a different perspective than somebody like me who just grew up and went to school and that’s it?
Jessica: I’m sure that’s not the case, Sharon. You’ve spoken to hundreds of people in your career now. It’s the joy of hearing somebody else’s point of view, somebody else’s story, somebody else’s jokes. There’s always an opportunity to learn from people, don’t you think?
Sharon: Yes, that’s why I’m asking. If you’re at a party, how do you describe what you do? If somebody says, “What do you do,” what do you say?
Jessica: At the moment, I say I’m a personal jeweler and I can make your jewelry wearable or make it new or make the jewels of your dreams. That’s what I say if I’m asked what I do.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Wayne Werner
Jeweler, goldsmith, and educator Wayne Werner is a third-generation metalsmith from Maryland. He has been jewelry maker for over 30 years with clients worldwide.
Wayne Werner has traveled around the world to learn with metal workers from Italy and Egypt to Java and Bali. Specializing in cold forging precious metals, Werner has incorporated the traditional techniques of gold and platinum smithing with his artistic vision of paying homage to the fertility cults of the ancient world.
Werner’s work explores the relationship to metals liquid opus and the opus of mankind, both being a product of the earth cooling down. Through his work Werner attempts to remind people of the miracle of life and the cosmic happening that we all are.
Primarily making a living retailing his work, Werner has participated in over 250 high-end craft shows nationally. He has received many awards for his work including the World Gold Council’s Gold Distinction award and the MJSA Vision award for Mokume Gane. Werner is a former instructor at the Fuji Studio in Florence, Italy, and was adjunct faculty at the Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore for 17 years. He has also taught over 100 workshops in universities and craft schools around the country. In 2006 he was asked to demonstrate his craft at The Mint Museum of Craft and Design in Charlotte, NC, an event marking his 40th birthday. He is founder and host of THE ALCHEMIST PICNIC, a metalsmithing retreat at Touchstone Center for Craft, now in its 6th year. Werner is also an accomplished musician who has appeared on both television and movies as himself. His clients are some of the most interesting people on earth.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript
Known for his psychedelic designs that reference ancient myths, fertility cults and the splendor of the sun, it’s no wonder that metalsmith Wayne Werner has connected with clients like the Grateful Dead. A self-taught jeweler who learned traditional techniques by visiting metalsmiths around the world, Wayne has found success by selling his pieces at craft shows. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his tips for building a long-lasting career in the jewelry industry; how he chooses the shows he attends; and why metalsmiths are all part of a global creative community. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today my guest is Wayne Werner. Wayne is a very unusual and accomplished goldsmith. He is self-taught. As well as a goldsmith, he’s an educator, artist and world traveler. Welcome back.
Wayne: I’m so lucky to have that energy be part of me profiting from a passion I have. I’m probably diverging. I’ll have a sip of bourbon.
Sharon: You were talking about developing your niches. One of the things you told me was that you limit shows. You say you pick and choose your shows so you don’t have to go to a hundred shows. Yes?
Wayne: Yes. I’m at the ripe old age of 56 now. I started when I was, I think, 21. I’ve done over 350 shows. I did actually count them a few years ago. There were 350 shows all over the United States. I had some gallery representation for a while. It was something I didn’t need as much of if I were doing lots of good retail shows. These are everything from a museum show and sale to the American Craft Council’s show and sales to arts festivals or even just art in the park. I had gone out and done these and ran myself ragged. I decided what I was willing to do and not willing to do.
In the course of that, I met my wonderful partner, Barbara Bayne, who is also a silver and goldsmith. Now we talk to each other and have these little executive board meetings in the hallway or wherever in the house. We say, “What do we want to do this winter? Let’s apply to some shows in Florida. Where do we want to find ourselves in August? How about Sausalito Arts Festival”—when that was happening—"or go up to the mountains in Idaho.” Now Barbara works with me, and she has a lot to say about setting the course. We go out and do shows in spurts.
She’s really good at throwing the applications out there, and we’re really good at traveling together. Sometimes we’ll share a booth, or we’ll have separate booths and just help one another, but we’re getting really selective. There are a lot of reasons. Sometimes it’s places we want to be because they’re pleasant at that time of the year. Sometimes it’s the safety or the not safety of being in a big city. I have to acknowledge that running around America with all your work in a backpack can create some stress, let’s say. I’ve never been robbed, but I’m always aware.
Now we’re doing between five and eight shows a year, the ones we want to do, the ones where we love and respect the promoter and we feel the love and respect back from the promoter. That’s very important to me, because what I really want is that warm feeling. I made it and you bought it, and there’s no middleman. I have grown to cherish that. It’s become a focal point of my business, to say, “I make it, you buy it.” There’s nobody between the love or the affection towards my work.
Michael Good grabbed me and said, “You know what your job is, Wayne? Your job is to connect and reconnect with the people that connect with you and your work.” He walked away and I said, “Wow! Good lord, that’s it! He just boiled it down.” I thought about the Ramones; they’re a punk rock band. They knew like four chords. All the songs sound about the same. It’s just a bunch of guys with leather jackets, but they found a way to connect and reconnect with people that connected with them. They weren’t the greatest at what they did, but they kept doing it and they made it available to their fans, their people, by doing shows and things like that.
I’ve done a lot of shows around the United States. A lot of them were not worth my time, but I did learn from them. At a lot of them I met the most amazing traveling artisans of my life. The biggest and best influences I ever got were from visiting my mentors between shows and seeing their studios. I’d say, “Wow! This is what you get to do for a living.” A couple of them said, “Yeah, it’s a living, but you’ve got to be on top of doing this stuff. You’ve got to have that business thing going.”
Sharon: Did you start becoming a teacher and educator because you wanted to share what you were doing? Was it because they inspired you, or it was happenstance?
Wayne: It was happenstance. It was a combination of a number of things. It was like finding another facet to your existence, another flickering point of what you were doing. In 1996, when I traveled around the world, I went to Florence, Italy and fell in with Kathy Knipple and Fuji Yamamoto. They had the Fuji Studio in Florence, Italy. I did a little residency there. They asked me to teach, and I said, “O.K., I haven’t done that much teaching.” In the back of my mind, I always felt that some teachers should make a living as an artisan before they teach. I thought, “Well, I’m going to try to teach,” and I stumbled through it with Fuji Studio.
When I was back in Maryland, within a year or two after doing that, a friend of mine was working at the Maryland Institute of Art. It’s a pretty prestigious private art school. It’s a cornerstone of Baltimore and all the artisans there. I said, “Yeah, I’ll come down and teach at the Maryland Institute of Art, but I have no master’s degree. I have no degree in art at all.” They said, “That’s O.K. We’re going to do it by recommending you. We’re going to offer you an adjunct position.” I didn’t know what the hell that meant, but I knew this much: The person who hired me said, “You’re going to make some waves here because you’ve got a job teaching with no degree.” I said, “Then I want to do it. But I’m warning you. I’m going to use you all as my guinea pigs. I’m going to learn to teach here and get paid for it, and then I’m going to go and teach all over the United States at art centers and craft campuses like my mentors, like the people I know that are mainly artisans, but they go out and teach a few workshops.”
So, I started offering the workshops. The first thing I learned immediately was I wasn’t a teacher. I was a maker. People got to watch me work and then I helped them work, but I would always say, “Mistakes are good. You need to make them. I’m not here to make your piece for you.” Teaching was just another facet to polish up, and it’s been very rewarding. It’s been a little frustrating. I probably learned more about myself than anybody in the class doing metalwork, but I cherish the students and young people.
These workshops are all ages, so you learn how to be in a group environment where you’re not in control. It’s very different than being in the studio or being at an art show. I joked and said, “At least in the studio, I can leave or ask somebody to leave.” When you’re in a room with 10 people and they paid money to learn to set stones, I’m a jester in the deck or a loose cannon. I’ve got to watch what I say. I can’t joke around as much. There are powers that be that won’t appreciate certain things I might say or do.
It's interesting seeing somebody on the path they’re on, and then I get to play the part of the person who gets to take them a little further down their path. It could be somebody who’s just retired that always wanted to make a ring, or some 20-something-year-old kid that I look at and think, “He reminds me of me when I was that age. What an asshole he’s going to end up being. He knows it all and he doesn’t know anything,” and then I get to be the big brother or the mentor figure. I’ve got some great relationships like that all over the country, all over the world now. I tell people, “Call me.” I’ve made that mistake before. “Call me. I’m your pal. You don’t owe me anything. Call me.”
I’ll tell you this funny story. In 1986, I sold my work in the parking lot of a Grateful Dead concert for $20.
Sharon: Say that again. You sold what? Something for $20?
Wayne: Yeah, I sold hippie jewelry in a parking lot when I was young. Within 10 years from selling hippie jewelry in a parking lot at a Grateful Dead show, I was selling to a gallery on Madison Avenue in New York City. That still blows my mind, but anyhow, last summer, I went up to Philadelphia and I swear I saw myself. I met this young kid from Idaho. He was doing some crystal wrapping and casting. I said, “Wow, man, it’s like meeting myself years ago.” The young man came to my house a few days after this concert, and I gave him a bunch of tools and a little goldsmithing lesson. It feels great. It really makes me feel good.
Sharon: It makes you feel good because you’re helping to put somebody on a path?
Wayne: Yeah. There’s a vibrant community of makers around the country, making things and making jewelry, but goldsmiths and platinum smiths and stone setters, there’s real demand for it. There’s a big DIY movement that’s been happening for many years, but there are going to be plenty of jobs for someone who wants to be self-sustaining as a metalsmith if they have experience in goldsmithing and stone setting and what I would call applicable skills to the trade. Now, you take those and do that and make a coin, but then you have money to go out and do far-out, really weird things or explore some other aspect of your libra. I’m a Libra, so I look for that balance. I still size rings and do antique restoration, but at the same time, I’m making pieces for an upcoming show I’m doing at the Boca Museum for an upcoming touring exhibition. I don’t make money off my art jewelry is what I’m trying to say. I don’t think my interesting pieces pay my rent and keep my boat afloat. I have to do production work to have at a show, and I do some repair and antique restoration. I spread it out.
That’s kind of the thing I like to instill in these little creatures that say, “I’m going to be a metalsmith.” I say, “Well, if you have this fantasy like I did about having a surreal job with rainbows and butterflies and psychedelic lights and everybody’s going to throw money at you, well guess what? You’ll come down off that cloud and you’re going to say, ‘Oh shit, today I’ve got to sweep to floor. Today, I’ve got to apply to shows. I’ve got to do my taxes or keep myself busy.’” That serpent that eats its own tail, that is the death of itself.
Sharon: Is that why you say you’re the joker in the pack, the joker in the deck? You’ve used that expression with me.
Wayne: I think you had been to my website and looked at some of these crazy little pods and this fertility goddess worship I try to bring into my work. I heard a great word the other day, “cryptographic.” They’re little stories or things I like to put down about my fascination with life, with sperm swimming to eggs or our liquid opus, everything being liquid. A lot of my pieces, they’re sexy; they’re fluid; they’re pods; they’re coming from an ancient fertility goddess world. I always thought the joker in the king’s court was pretty cool because he could be a fool and make a fool of himself, but at the same time he could speak divine truth, and because it was a ha-ha joke, he wasn’t put to death by the king.
When I talk about this infinite jest in making pieces that revolve around how amazing it is to be alive in the first place, a lot of people say, “Oh, this joker’s just making these little designs, pressing buttons, trying to get people to think about stuff.” That’s really what I want. I don’t mind doing that as long as the message gets through. I think you’d have to look at my work to delve into it and understand that, yeah, I’m putting these things together. They are sperm; they are egg; they are all about life and the creation of life. Joker in the deck. If that’s the job to do today, I’m here showing up and punching my card.
Sharon: Do you think about that when you start a piece? Do you have something in mind when you make a piece of jewelry?
Wayne: Yeah. The last cool piece I made—I think I sent a picture of it—was for the Tellus Museum. Elyse Zorn Karlin had a wonderful show at the Tellus Museum, and she was nice enough to tell me what it was about. It was called “Jewelry in the Space Age.” They were looking for alternative materials, so I used some meteorite in a couple of pieces. With the meteorite, I also did this little design in the middle of a pod in the form of an egg being born in the top. In the middle of the pod was a little sun. The sun was shaped like little sperm swimming at the center of the piece, so it looked like sun rays. This was something that Rick Griffin, a psychedelic poster artist that worked for the Grateful Dead—he did the Aoxomoxoa album cover for the Dead—he had done that. So, I threw that into the piece.
The curator came to me and said, “O.K., how does this fit into my show?” I said, “Well, there’s meteorite in the piece and it talks about star seeds and things like that. If you go back to ancient Egypt, you end up with this idea of splendor solis, the splendor of the sun, and how we are all creatures that are made possible by the splendor of the sun, the fertility of the earth, plants, animals, everything. It all goes back to the sun and sun worship. I used this sun pattern that came from ancient Egypt. I used meteorite, but I also wanted to use these other symbols of eggs and being born and gestation phases and things like that.” She scratched her head and said, “Nobody’s going to get that. Nobody’s going to see that in your work.” I said, “That’s O.K. If they want to talk about it, that’s O.K.,” but I do think about that.
I’ve been told by different people, “You’ve got to get away from this theme of sex and fertility and things like that. You should get away from that theme,” and then I said to myself, “Well, why? This is an ancient idea. Hermes and Mercury and Thoth and all these enlightened deities, that’s what they were talking about.” I try to stay true to it, but it creeps in all the time. I want to try to be a visionary goldsmith. I would like to have people scratch their heads a little bit, but whenever they get into it, they say, “Oh, that’s interesting.”
Take a second and think that we’re all cosmic miracles and little happenings under the splendor of the sun. If people thought about that more, I think they’d think less about walking into a grocery store and shooting up a bunch of people or going into a school and doing this. It’s so disturbing to watch the news every night and see some of this creep up. If we would all just take a minute and walk around with our jaw open and go, “Wow! Far out! We’re all a bunch of little miracles and cosmic happenings.” We need to find a way for this to work, for us to appreciate each other and live with each other. Deep down a rabbit hole, Alice. Here we go.
Sharon: Is that the suggestion or advice you would give someone at the beginning? Somebody who says, “I don’t know. This is a really hard path. Should I do this or should I go get a job?”
Wayne: Like advice for young people?
Sharon: What’s your advice for emerging jewelers, let’s say. People who are just emerging, just starting out.
Wayne: I’d say you’re just as lucky as I am to have found this stuff and picked it up and touched it and for it to touch you back. Automatically they’re lucky. Some people aren’t going to do this for a living. They just want to explore the craft. Some people are like, “No, this is my living.” I think a young person needs to know what they know and what they don’t know, which means they can go about making jewelry with their skillset, but when it gets out of their comfort zone, maybe repair or doing something else for somebody, they need to know when not to do that. Hopefully they have in their group of friends or their tribe an older person or a younger person who knows how to do that.
Another thing—I had this conversation with a fellow not long ago because he was frustrated. I said, “Look, we are a big mosaic. Metalsmithing and jewelry making is a big mosaic, and we all make up the picture. You’re never going to know it all, do it all, be it all. It's not all about you or me. This is about a collective community that has been lucky enough to find materials and to have the patience to make things. Look at it like a big mosaic, and don’t be so upset that all eyes aren’t on you all the time, because it’s not going to be that way. It’s very flattering to be speaking to you right now at a heart-to-heart level. It’s very flattering, but tomorrow, I’m going to be just another monkey on the vine of this big banyan tree of other metalsmiths.”
I have to realize that even the metalwork I don’t like, I have to find something about that metalsmith or that work that I appreciate or respect, just because they’re out there doing this stuff. The big mosaic is something I like to remind people of. I like to remind young people that it’s the jewelry business. It’s half business, half art, and if you have to split your day up that way, have at it. I’m a musician as well, and one of the best things I learned from one of my musician friends was, “You’ve got to be it all the time. You’ve got to take care of your business. You’ve got to plan what you’re doing six to nine months from now today.”
Today, you have to concentrate on where you’re going to be six to nine months or a year or five years from now. You need to consciously address that, whether it’s applying to shows or getting your résumé together or getting slides taken or documenting or putting it on, whatever the hell it is. You need to think about what’s far down the road, and then stop and go to the bench and do whatever the task of the day is, making jewelry or whatever. You need to have time to wear the hat of the businessperson. If you’re not willing to do that, you’ve got to get somebody to do that for you, because business is everything; everything business. If you want to have a surreal job and be surreal busy, you’ve got to ride that surreal white horse to that job and do that job.
Sharon: That’s a great piece of advice—well, pieces of advice, but the last one resonates with me in other areas, not just jewelry. Thank you very much for being here today, Wayne. I greatly appreciate it.
Wayne: Thank you. Again, I’m flattered to be here, and I love what you’re doing.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Wayne Werner
Jeweler, goldsmith, and educator Wayne Werner is a third-generation metalsmith from Maryland. He has been jewelry maker for over 30 years with clients worldwide.
Wayne Werner has traveled around the world to learn with metal workers from Italy and Egypt to Java and Bali. Specializing in cold forging precious metals, Werner has incorporated the traditional techniques of gold and platinum smithing with his artistic vision of paying homage to the fertility cults of the ancient world.
Werner’s work explores the relationship to metals liquid opus and the opus of mankind, both being a product of the earth cooling down. Through his work Werner attempts to remind people of the miracle of life and the cosmic happening that we all are.
Primarily making a living retailing his work, Werner has participated in over 250 high-end craft shows nationally. He has received many awards for his work including the World Gold Council’s Gold Distinction award and the MJSA Vision award for Mokume Gane. Werner is a former instructor at the Fuji Studio in Florence, Italy, and was adjunct faculty at the Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore for 17 years. He has also taught over 100 workshops in universities and craft schools around the country. In 2006 he was asked to demonstrate his craft at The Mint Museum of Craft and Design in Charlotte, NC, an event marking his 40th birthday. He is founder and host of THE ALCHEMIST PICNIC, a metalsmithing retreat at Touchstone Center for Craft, now in its 6th year. Werner is also an accomplished musician who has appeared on both television and movies as himself. His clients are some of the most interesting people on earth.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript
Known for his psychedelic designs that reference ancient myths, fertility cults and the splendor of the sun, it’s no wonder that metalsmith Wayne Werner has connected with clients like the Grateful Dead. A self-taught jeweler who learned traditional techniques by visiting metalsmiths around the world, Wayne has found success by selling his pieces at craft shows. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his tips for building a long-lasting career in the jewelry industry; how he chooses the shows he attends; and why metalsmiths are all part of a global creative community. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today my guest is Wayne Werner. Wayne is a very unusual and accomplished goldsmith. He is self-taught. As well as a goldsmith, he’s an educator, an artist and a world traveler. He has traveled from Italy to Egypt, Java and Bali to learn different metalworking techniques and to be the best possible metalsmith. We’ll hear all about his journey today. Wayne, welcome to the program.
Wayne: Thank you, Sharon. I’m flattered to be here.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being here. Tell us about your jewelry journey. You came from a family of goldsmiths, you said.
Wayne: Yes. I hope the journey has not already happened. I think it’s still happening as we speak. But, yeah, I came from a family of makers, I would say. My one grandfather worked on the World Trade Center in New York and the George Washington Bridge among other things. He was an ironworker. My grandfather on my dad’s side worked for the government. He worked for Aberdeen Proving Ground. He did metalwork. He made hand grenades and guns that shot around corners and weird things like that.
My mom was a decorator, but it was my uncle Russ Springer who really blew my mind and affected me when I was a child. Russ Springer, a German immigrant on the east side of Baltimore, was a watchmaker, clockmaker and repairman. He made jewelry, but he also did movie projections. He was a projectionist. He did things like help put movies on airplanes back in the 60s. When I went to see uncle Russ, he was working at the Essex Movie Theater on the east side of Baltimore. My mother took me there. She would leave me at the movie theater because he was working in the projection room, and she would go shopping. I was there to watch 101 Dalmatians, but Russ had a work bench in there, and while he was running the projectors in this small projection room, he was working on watches and clocks and carvings. Imagine being six years old, walking into a tiny room with flickering lights and big wheels turning, movies turning, and there’s an old man with a skinny moustache and a German physique hunched over a workbench over little mechanical things that look just like that movie projector. I didn’t want to watch the movie; I wanted to be in this little room with flickering lights and my uncle Russ. For me, that was the most fascinating. It was something out of a carnival, but all on a microscopic level. It really affected me.
The highlight of my six-year-old life was to go to Russ’ house. He had a hundred clocks, and they would all chime or go off or do something. If I could just be at his house to hear all these clocks chime and go off at noon. It was Pink Floyd time. It was bing, bong, boom. It was so exciting, the anticipation and all that. So, Russ Springer was the one to hand me some wax as a child and light a fire of fascination with small things.
One thing led to the other. I started sculpting with Sculpey and things like that. When I was a young kid, I’d go to Bethany Beach and pretend to be a sculptor. I’d hang out under the boardwalk and do sculptures out of clay. Lo and behold, a man came up and talked to me and gave me a commission—I think it was for six dollars—and these little things fuel your fire. So, I was sculpting and doing wax carvings.
When I hit my teenage years, I was really getting into wax carving. The Grateful Dead came to town and my friends took me to a Grateful Dead concert. There were all these crafts in the parking lot and really cool counterculture stuff, so I started doing little wax carvings at 17, 18 years old and selling them in the parking lot of Grateful Dead concerts. I ended up selling work to the Psychedelic Shop in San Francisco and the Psychedelic Solution in New York City. These pieces were $12 to $20 each, but it fueled the fire for the next step.
That next step was to discover the American Craft Council. That was a really enlightening thing for me. I had a teacher at community college who was upset that I wasn’t an art major, and he said, “Go down to the Baltimore American Craft Council’s show. I want you to see the business of art, of jewelers and silversmiths, glassblowers, leatherworkers, all those kinds of people.” So, the American Craft Council in Baltimore was the first place I experienced contemporary craft.
Sharon: Did that make you want to go around the world?
Wayne: It’s funny you should say that, but it did. I found myself, God forbid, growing up and needing to make money and do something, and I felt like I was getting good at metalwork. I was in California. I went to the Revere Academy for a few classes. I wanted to be in San Francisco around the Psychedelic Shop, but I was getting involved with shows. I met some successful craftspeople, and I realized it was something to commit to. Between the ages of about 22 and 29, I began doing ACC shows. I wanted to do crafts at Lincoln Center, which was interesting, but I put the brakes on it. I thought to myself, “I see how this could become you.” Becoming a craftsperson was a commitment. I would do it, but it was a commitment. Before I committed to being in a bunch of galleries and doing a bunch of shows, I wanted to pause and take a trip around the world. At the time, I had just done a commission for the band Blues Traveler. They commissioned me to do platinum rings for the band. I had worked for other rock bands before.
To get back to your question, if it made me want to travel around the world, absolutely. My 30th birthday gift to myself was to take a trip around the world, and I did that. I planned it for close to a year. This was 1995. I wrote letters to some galleries, artists and schools saying I had an intent to travel and visit these places. I literally paused my creative endeavors of trying to have a studio and trying to be a contemporary American craftsman. I paused and said, “Wait, let me take a trip around the world first, because I don’t think I will be able to do it later.” This was pre-millennium and everything else, pre-9/11. I knew in my stomach that in the future, I felt like the world wouldn’t be as easily traveled. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yes.
Wayne: How did I decide to do that? I just wanted to do it. I wanted to say I did it. I wanted to visit metalsmithing places and villages, everything from King Tut. I wanted to see King Tut. I wanted to walk the Ponte Vecchio in Florence. I wanted to go see the metalsmiths in Java and Bali and get into their world, walk in and out of the door, at least for a day.
Sharon: Did you know they were metalsmiths? Did you know they had something you wanted to learn, something specific? Or did you just want to see what they did?
Wayne: A little bit of everything. One of the first things I did was go to Goldsmiths’ Hall in London and see the show there. I had some friends there, made some friends, interviewed people like Wendy Ramshaw and Gerda Flöckinger. I was meeting people and I would interview them. I ended up in Pforzheim, Germany and Italy, but where it really got interesting was when I went to Egypt. I was in Cairo hanging around with metalsmiths in the market, who had all the time in the world but not the technology.
One of my destinations I had to see was Java, to see the kris-makers of Java. They used to make knives out of meteorite and iron. They’re kind of supernatural and super fascinating. A kris blade is something that every Indonesian man possesses. It was the same thing with the Balinese doing granulation work. I had it loosely mapped out in my head. I had written my letters. I’d gotten some letters back saying, “You’re welcome to come here,” or “You’re welcome to come use the bench for the week.” It was really cool that I found this global family, not just the American craftsman family, but this global family. They’re still there. They’re out there for all of us.
Sharon: When you came back, did you find the travels influenced what you made or how you made it?
Wayne: Yeah, it really did. First of all, I realized there was some kind of metallic cultural heritage in different regions around the world. We talk about how in Toledo, Spain, they do inlaid work. I already mentioned the kris blades, Balinese granulation. That influenced me, knowing that being a metalsmith was being part of a cultural heritage. Being from Baltimore, the American Craft Council show was so important at the time. I realized I was a hammer person. I ended up using a hammer and forging when I did sculpting, and that led to Douglas Legenhausen, who I worked for. He worked for Ron Hayes Pearson. So, I found myself in that little tribe of makers.
The other thing I was developing at the time was not just making craft, but I was trying to bring in ancient techniques or ancient religious ideas. A lot of the travels I did revolved around going to temples like the Temple of Artemis at Ephesus in Turkey and the Temple of Isis in south Egypt. Those were fertility temples, and a lot of my work was a quest to document how amazing it was to be alive and how mother nature and all these things were such a force. That was the story I was telling. It got influenced by these ancient temples and religious things. The facts that mattered to ancient culture were written in metal or stone. It all started churning up, fermenting, but it all started with my fascination with psychedelic art and the art of Rick Griffin. He was a poster artist, and he did a lot of work that revolved around these fertility cults and temples. So, did it influence my work? How couldn’t it influence my work?
You also have to accept the fact that there are some things that are much larger than any one maker. I realized I was in this mosaic of creative people; they just happened to be metalsmiths. They could have been musicians or poets or whatever, but they were metalsmiths. It was a crazy, life-changing adventure. It was survival. There were a lot of things that went wrong. There were a lot of things that happened that I never would have guessed. I didn’t think I would have ended up in a workshop in Cairo, Egypt, looking over the shoulder of someone who was doing filigree work the way their father and father and father probably five or six generations before him had done.
It was amazing to me to realize that if the workshop had a dirt floor, the people in that workshop were very in tune with their creative process and the material. When you got into a room with a concrete floor and all these fancy machines, I think it really separated them from the earth and the earth, air, fire and water scenario. I found that the primitive metalsmiths were more tuned into their material. It’s when I started to really pay attention to the material and what it could do, what it would do, and especially what I could and couldn’t do with the material. Did that answer your question?
Sharon: Yeah, you did. I’m wondering if what you’re saying is what resonated with the rock musicians you also talk to. Maybe you’re making a different ring, but it’s a different story or a different piece of jewelry, I guess.
Wayne: We’ll back up to Psychedelic Solution. I was in New York. Jacaeber Kastor was his name, and he had a gallery where you could buy rock-and-roll collectable things, not only collectable posters, but original artwork from different artists like Rick Griffin and H. R. Giger. I guess they’re psychedelic artists, outsider artists, pop or visionary artists, whatever you want to call them. I also sold to the Psychedelic Solution in San Francisco. That was more of a head shop, but they had some collectable posters. Through both of them, I met a lot of interesting people. I was just a lucky kid who had a relationship with his creativity, which happened to be metal, and things would happen.
Bill Graham and some of the Grateful Dead would have me do pieces. I met Jerry Garcia’s guitar maker, and then Jerry Garcia said, “I’d like to have some little pins with my logo on them. I’m going to give these away.” It was interesting to be near those people. Blues Traveler, I made some platinum rings from them. Prior to that, they were silver rings. I found myself growing comfortable around certain bands. I remember riding on the road with one of these musicians and I said, “Man, you’ve got the coolest job ever,” and he said, “No, you’ve got the coolest job ever. You’re playing with fire. You’re sitting at home. You’re listening to records, staying in your studio. You don’t have to deal with what I have to deal with.” It’s kind of cool to have a rock musician say, “No, you have the coolest job, not me.”
They were into the same stuff. When I told somebody where I traveled, I said, “Yeah, I saw the pyramids a couple of times and I went to see my cousin, King Tut.” He said, “Wow, man, that’s great. Make me something. Bring these designs forward. Reinterpret them.” Again, I’m just a regular guy who got fascinated with metalsmithing and history and world religions and things like that. Whenever I sat down to write a story, it was in metal. It was all part of the fascination. I was a guy on the hustle, Sharon, like you wouldn’t believe. I was not, in any uncertain terms, going to get a regular job and have a regular life. I thought there was a way to have a surreal job and a surreal life as long as you were willing to work at it. To me, the artists, whether they were musicians or whatever, they were professionally themselves. They were outsiders. They may have been socially inept, but they figured out a way to be professionally themselves. That was the goal. “The harder you work, the more luck you will have,” as someone said to me. I said, “All right. I’m going to go work hard at this surreal thing I have going on.”
Sharon: Is that when you decided to go into jewelry making, because he said it was a neat job? Did you realize, “This my thing. This is the way I am creative the way I work hard and grow”?
Wayne: I think any creative person has a time in their life when they have to make a decision. Do you bet it all on your creativity, and then you have the business aspect of this creativity? Because business, no matter what you do as an artist, is super important. They call it the music business; they call it the art business, because of half of it is art and half of it is business. For me, I got to a point where I realized I was getting some chops. Honestly, I was told by JoAnne Brown, who ran the American Craft Council’s shows, “Wayne, you’re one of the youngest goldsmiths to do these shows as a goldsmith. Not as a silversmith, as a goldsmith. You’re really betting it all here.” I just had to laugh. I said, “I’m totally unemployable. I’ve tried it and I can’t work for people. I have to figure this out.” All I wanted to do was find my niches and find other facets of a creative career to go into.
It’s funny; I don’t know if I made the decision or the decision made me. I swear to God, if this didn’t find me, I would have had a very different path in life. Probably it wouldn’t have worked out so good, but I love it. I love the craft. I love the makers I work with. I love everything about it. Alan Revere said something I thought was asinine at the time. He said, “Wayne, you’re becoming a metalsmith. You could become a lawyer and people would come see you when they’re in trouble. You could be a doctor and people would come see you when they’re sick, but you know what? You’re going to be a metalsmith and a jeweler. People are going to come see you when they’re in love. Whether it’s a wedding band or a gift or whatever, they’re going to come see you when they’re in love. You’re going to be part of their love, their relationship.” I looked at him like he had two heads, of all the things to say.
After years of doing this, every time I make a wedding band, I thank the customer. I say, “You know what? Thank you.” The ultimate compliment I can get is for someone to say, “Make my wedding ring.” This week I’m restoring a wedding band that’s close to a hundred years old. It was someone’s grandma’s, and that’s pretty cool. I have to admit I’m so lucky to have that energy be part of me profiting from a passion I have.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please had to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Inesa Kovalova
Coming from the architectural background, Inesa Kovalova started her career in jewelry with an internship in Van Cleef and Arpels and then worked for international fine and high jewelry companies. Driven by the recent challenges of the luxury industry, Inesa moves on to create jewelry reflecting our life today.
Art, design and architecture inspired, Inesa's jewelry explores the relationships between material, craftsmanship and design. Her pieces range from re-defined precious classics to contemporary 3d printed art jewels.
She is also the founder of Draw Me a Jewel, a jewelry illustration school and community for professionals and jewelry enthusiasts. Since launching online in 2020, more than 500 students all over the world have taken her courses. Inesa also teaches at Central Saint Martins, the Victoria and Albert museum in London and DiVA museum in Antwerpen.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A jewelry designer doesn’t have to draw to create beautiful jewels—but it certainly doesn’t hurt. The ability to render gems and jewelry before creating them can help designers communicate ideas, market their brand, and show clients one-of-a-kind pieces before they’re finalized. That’s the idea behind Draw Me a Jewel, a jewelry illustration school founded by designer Inesa Kovalova. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jewelry illustration techniques; why the definition of high jewelry should expand; and how her Ukrainian heritage inspires her architectural designs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, I’m pleased to welcome Ukrainian jewelry designer Inesa Kovalova. In addition to her innovative jewelry designs, which clearly demonstrate her training as an architect, she’s also the founder of Draw Me a Jewel, a school that teaches jewelry illustration. Welcome back.
Are all your courses virtual, or do you teach them in person too?
Inesa: They are 90% virtual, but I also collaborate with museums. When I was living in London, I was teaching a drawing gems course in the Victoria and Albert Museum, so it was an occasion to go and learn offline. It was a couple of years ago. Here I also collaborate with the DIVA jewelry and diamond museum. From time to time, maybe a couple of times a year, I run weekend master classes.
Sharon: This goes back to what I asked before. Can you teach this drawing virtually?
Inesa: Yes, that’s very easy. It’s video tutorials. There’s online education everywhere.
Sharon: I know you’ve lived all over the world because you’re talking to us from Amsterdam. You’ve lived in London. You started interning at Van Cleef. How did you find the influence of architecture and being Ukrainian and high jewelry? How did you find that?
Inesa: In the very beginning, you can clearly read architecture influence in my jewels. When I think about the architecture that inspired it, it was really unconscious influence. I grew up in an industrial town. There was a lot of machine building production, as it is a big industry in the area. When you think about steelworks plants, you have a lot of straight lines, a lot of volumes intersecting, sometimes just due to practical reasons, not because of the design. The design is completely rational, and there’s this heavy industry. It’s how it looks inside. When you see the plant from a distance, you see a lot of straight lines intersecting, and then you can see lights blinking here and there. That’s actually how things inside look. The same metalworks plant still exists in Donetsk. In my hometown, there was a commercial building plant. This was one of the largest in the Soviet Union during Soviet Union times, and on a Ukrainian scale, it was quite a big production center.
I never thought about this architecture as an inspiration for my work. I thought mostly about master plans. I worked in urban planning. When you look at the city, you see the master plan. Many cities have straight grids, so when I worked on my first collection that was called Urban, influences—
Sharon: Which was what? I’m sorry.
Inesa: The name of my first collection, which was my collection from Central St. Martins. I named it Urban.
Sharon: Urban?
Inesa: Urban, yeah. It was definitely an influence of architecture. Afterwards, when I started showing my pieces to my friends I studied with in Ukraine from the same landscape, they all recognized the influence of industrial architecture. They basically recognized all the commercial building plants. It was a friend of mine who said, “Well, I don’t know what inspires you to design this way, but I can clearly see the metalworks part in it.” It was really insightful.
Indeed, when I look at my mood boards, I have a lot of grids; I have a lot of lines. I think it’s all together. When studying architecture, I was really interested in industrial areas. One of my diploma projects was about revitalization of industrial areas, like how to bring abandoned industrial sites to life. I even forgot about it when I started designing jewelry, but all of a sudden it pops up very unconsciously.
Sharon: Do you find you have other influences unconsciously, say, high jewelry or modernist or art jewelry?
Inesa: Yes, obviously, like French modernists at the beginning of the previous century. They are my great inspiration. That’s actually another point and driver of my research. I always look at materials and techniques, how they influenced the jewelry industry. When we think 100 years back, it was exactly what the Exposition of 1925 brought into jewelry. It was all about new materials. It was all about new industrial inspiration at that moment. Now our world has changed completely, so we have much more innovative materials developed that are not perceived as precious, but they do find their place in jewelry, including high jewelry.
I really believe the definition of high jewelry should expand. The closest one, to me, seems to be the definition given by the Committee of Exhibition when they describe what modern jewelers should aim for and what they are willing to accept to exhibit at an art fair. They look for innovative and excellent craftsmanship and excellence in design. There are few companies that really make jewelry an art. Without any technical or material innovation, when we go back to traditional jewelry and we keep on producing the same things for 100 years, it becomes much less interesting. What I take from modernism as my inspiration is that I love to have jewelry that is from today, from this century.
Sharon: When did you decide you wanted to have part of your business be illustration, as opposed to 100% of your business doing design?
Inesa: When I started the illustration school, it was probably a lucky chance. It all came from passion. I really like jewelry painting and I love drawing by hand. There was a moment when I was not yet working anywhere abroad, but I saw more and more digital models replacing drawing, and I was worried that people had stopped drawing. I had students. I had people who wanted to learn, and it just grew naturally. There were people asking for classes. When there were too many people, it was completely reasonable to make a group and teach a group class. Then when there were even more people from different cities, it was completely reasonable to record. In fact, our illustration school is a wonderful community of people. I met so many people thanks to it. I love it.
Sharon: Do you teach other things besides hand drawing? Do you teach people how to use CAD?
Inesa: No, it’s very specific. It’s a couple of techniques I find important working in jewelry design. Gouache is a great tradition. It’s purely for external communication when I talk to clients. Sometimes gouache might not be reasonable for smaller productions. There are people whose process through making, not through drawing. That’s also completely fine, but when I think about gouache, I think of a particular craft that is a pleasure of its own and could have no practical implementation. As a sketching technique, it’s essential for any designer who would make it specific for jewelry. We don’t sketch a building or an apartment, but we do sketch a ring. So, it’s something for people to understand. It’s super helpful for many designers when they communicate with jewelers, when they communicate inside the company, when they quickly need to sketch their ideas to explain.
Sharon: Has anybody brought you a design or an idea that’s art jewelry or made of very different materials, and you felt like, “What is this?” or “Can I help?”
Inesa: It’s also myself. My 3D printed jewels, I cannot draw them. So, when making them, I don’t start with a drawing. I do, but it’s mostly a compositional drawing. Then I have my own process that is based on making. I cannot design that sort of jewel just with a pencil in my hand.
Sharon: Have people come to you and said, “I’m afraid to take your class because you might steal my designs”?
Inesa: Yes. You may see my designs. Luckily, this didn’t happen. Of course, confidentiality is a thing in the jewelry business, but there were more people coming and saying, “I’m afraid to take a class because I’m not sure if I will be able to draw it.” Someone could stay afraid, but there are those who dare to try. They do.
Sharon: But they haven’t brought you anything you couldn’t help with, that you couldn’t shed some light on?
Inesa: No, I haven’t had that yet. When it’s something I don’t know how to draw, I try to look for a solution with the person. Last year, I ran a masterclass. They all had different ideas, very brave, very experimental ones. Something could be more difficult to draw than simple classical designs, and then I tried to break the jewel into smaller, more understandable parts. Sometimes I looked for examples of how it could be done to try to come up with idea of how to illustrate a jewel in a way that will translate what this jewel is about. We might keep some detailing, for example, that can give an impression of the volume. We can help a person to understand what is in front of us.
Sharon: Do you consider yourself an artist or an illustrator? What do you consider yourself?
Inesa: I consider myself a designer. I like to think about ideas and concepts. Then, when it comes to designing objects, that is a result of an extensive thinking process and research.
Sharon: I also use the example of you’re at a party or work event and people say, “What do you do?” You say you’re a designer.
Inesa: I say I’m a designer. When they ask, “What do you design?” I say jewelry. Most of the people there are very surprised, because there are not many jewelry designers working on the streets. There are, but you need to know where to look.
Sharon: If I heard somebody say they’re a designer, I’d want to know, “Can you design a cup for me? Can you design this for me?”
Inesa: When a person is a designer they can design anything. Of course, maybe you will need to study. You’ll need to research how to design specific mechanisms. You need to learn the process, what is happening with the object, how people use it or what this object should do. Then you probably will be able to come up with a solution.
It’s a great thing from architecture. It’s all about thinking three-dimensionally. It’s also about thinking about the contexts, about a bigger city as a living organism and the intersection of different spheres, like social, sometimes political. You think about all this when designing a city. Of course, you don’t think that when designing a material; you think about other things. You think about the processes in your flat: how you open a cupboard, how you take your cup out of it, and that drives the design solutions.
Sharon: Do you ever look at people’s jewelry they have on and say—
Inesa: I do look. I don’t always dare say, but I memorize jewels well. I might forget the name, but I would remember the jewel.
Sharon: But do you look at the jewel and think, “I would have done it this way instead”?
Inesa: No.
Sharon: No, O.K.
Inesa: I think it’s very personal. There are so many different reasons and so many different options a person chooses. I find it’s very, very personal. You could just be happy that a person found what she or he likes.
Sharon: Do you start your school with people signing a confidentiality agreement? It seems like you would be inspired or have the influence to buy their ideas or what they’re trying to do.
Inesa: No, we don’t sign those types of confidential agreements because everything is not about design; it’s about illustration. People can work with their own designs since they would like to illustrate during the process, but we also work a lot with references of existing jewels. You choose what you want to draw and then you draw it.
Sharon: How did you learn about gems and jewels if you didn’t study it? You studied architecture and illustration, and you said you learned about how light reflects on different gems and jewels. How did you learn about that?
Inesa: How light reflects in general I learned from art school. Then I studied in a creative academy. It’s a private school run by Richemont Group in Milan. It’s a very specific training for people who’d love to work as designers for luxury brands. The school teaches you a lot about the luxury industry, starting from marketing management and communication. They also have specific training in illustration and design and different techniques you might need to apply. So, the courses are a combination of what I practice myself as a designer and what I know from art and architecture school. I put together a lot of insights from different learning experiences, and, of course, it all comes from practice.
Sharon: Did you have to learn different illustration techniques for new things like 3D printing?
Inesa: Yes, I had to learn 3D. We design these integrated structures that I print with a 3D printer afterwards. I cannot brief anyone to design it for me, so I have to open the program and do it myself. I had to learn at least the basics of the program. I’m not a very advanced user. I know things that I need to create my volumes, but if I would need to create something else, I would look for tutorials and probably would do it that way.
Sharon: I really appreciate you being with us today. I hope next time we’ll hear a lot more about the school and the people who come and your designs. Thank you very much.
Inesa: Thank you, Sharon. It’s been a pleasure to talk to you.
Sharon: It’s been so nice to talk to you.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Inesa Kovalova
Coming from the architectural background, Inesa Kovalova started her career in jewelry with an internship in Van Cleef and Arpels and then worked for international fine and high jewelry companies. Driven by the recent challenges of the luxury industry, Inesa moves on to create jewelry reflecting our life today.
Art, design and architecture inspired, Inesa's jewelry explores the relationships between material, craftsmanship and design. Her pieces range from re-defined precious classics to contemporary 3d printed art jewels.
She is also the founder of Draw Me a Jewel, a jewelry illustration school and community for professionals and jewelry enthusiasts. Since launching online in 2020, more than 500 students all over the world have taken her courses. Inesa also teaches at Central Saint Martins, the Victoria and Albert museum in London and DiVA museum in Antwerpen.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
A jewelry designer doesn’t have to draw to create beautiful jewels—but it certainly doesn’t hurt. The ability to render gems and jewelry before creating them can help designers communicate ideas, market their brand, and show clients one-of-a-kind pieces before they’re finalized. That’s the idea behind Draw Me a Jewel, a jewelry illustration school founded by designer Inesa Kovalova. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about jewelry illustration techniques; why the definition of high jewelry should expand; and how her Ukrainian heritage inspires her architectural designs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today, I’m pleased to welcome Ukrainian jewelry designer Inesa Kovalova. In addition to her innovative designs, which clearly demonstrate her training as an architect, she’s also the founder of Draw Me a Jewel, a school that teaches jewelry illustration. She has worked and studied at some of the most well-known names in jewelry around the world. Inesa, we’re so glad to have you today.
Inesa: Thank you, Sharon. It’s a pleasure to talk to you. I love your podcast a lot. That’s the complete truth.
Sharon: This is a little different today, but we’re managing. Tell us about your jewelry journey.
Inesa: I feel like I’m still in a journey. It’s still a process. I’m Ukrainian, and I was born and raised in a small town in the eastern part of Ukraine, Kramatorsk. It’s far away from where I’ve been. When I think about my jewelry journey, it feels like a time lapse. I’m remembering some moments, like me working in a small jewelry enterprise in Kramatorsk. Then five years goes in a blink, and I remember myself being in Paris. Then I have another blink that brings me to London. In a few blinks, I arrive where I am now.
Sharon: Does everybody ask you about the fact that you’re Ukrainian? How do you feel about that?
Inesa: Nowadays, I’m asked a lot about this. Of course, I am Ukrainian, and I have my family and friends there. I’m constantly following the news and trying to help as much as I can these days.
Sharon: When did you know you wanted to become a jeweler? Were you artistic when you were younger? You’re young now, but—
Inesa: I started in art school. It’s a funny story. I definitely had no talent in music, so my parents brought me to drawing school to study art. I grew up drawing since I was very young. I didn’t know that a professional jewelry designer existed, but I was always curious. I remember myself drawing elaborate garnets, with attention to earrings or necklaces. I clearly had this interest always.
Sharon: Could you see any of this around you? Was there a Tiffany or a Van Cleef?
Inesa: No, there was no Tiffany or Van Cleef. I didn’t know these names, but luckily in my city, there were a few jewelry enterprises. They were basically small manufacturers producing mass market jewelry. That’s actually how I started. My first experience working in jewelry was as a sales assistant in one of the small shops in Kramatorsk during the summer. The owner, who was also the manufacturer of a little jewelry brand, knew I studied architecture and I liked drawing. My mom is a lovely lady and suggested that I try to design something. I was clearly very keen to design something.
Then the director of design for this small enterprise gave me a bag with a few sapphires and said, “Come back in a week and bring some sketches for them.” I was shocked, but I tried to do some things. In a couple of weeks, I arrived back with a number of sketches. When she looked through them, 70% she chewed up. Then she picked up the others and said, “Yes, this can be done. Our jewelry designer will explain to you what to adjust, how to put things together, which details to add.” That’s how I was taught.
Then I joined this company working for about a year. It was the place where I learned everything. For Kramatorsk, for the Ukrainian scale, it was quite a decent sized company. It was like 100 people working, and they had a full cycle of production. There were people who were working with 3D models. There were jewelers who were working on a piece from casting to setting everything. I didn’t know anything about gemstones or production at that point, so I was really lucky to learn how the jewelry enterprise operates as a cycle.
I read as many books as I could. I think the books in the library influenced me a lot, and I still have this passion. There was this book of modern design from a French jewelry brand. It was really one of the first books I got enchanted with. I started learning about high jewelry, the history of jewelry, how it caused a sensation in Paris.
Sharon: Do you think architecture influenced the fact that you could draw?
Inesa: Yes, obviously. Of course, I have quite a good drawing background. I went to art school and was taught still lifes and drawing portraits. Ukrainian education in the field of architecture, when I started, was pretty based on construction and drawings. So, we had extensive training in drawing every week up to about week eight. We had 12 hours of drawing every week as well during the first years. So, the ability to draw and to synch dimensionally is something that is always helpful to have when it comes to designing anything.
Sharon: You started an illustration school to teach people how to illustrate the designs they have in mind. You have several courses. I’m looking at some of the things you have. If you wanted to design an engagement ring but you don’t know how to express it, you could learn that. Did you find that people had trouble learning to draw?
Inesa: Yes, I definitely found that people have trouble learning to draw. I myself, knowing how to draw and having a very good foundation of drawing, when it comes to jewelry drawing, it’s a specific technique. Partly it’s a technique, and another part is an understanding of the volume. That’s actually what I try to teach through my courses. Everything is based on understanding volume and thinking about light and shadow, how these volumes interact with the light and how we can depict them. It’s actually a sequence of logical facts, like here have a shadow; here we have the light, and when we place them here and here, we will see it’s a sphere or it’s cube.
Of course, jewelry is a different plane, but you can always break every complex object into simple ones. That’s definitely something I take from architecture, from constructive, three-dimensional drawing, from this architectural background and understanding the volumes and how they’re placed in space. It helps me teach and helps people clarify for themselves what they’re drawing and why they need to do this or that.
I’m a big fan of the question “why.” Answering a question and making everything reasonable actually places me in illustration. You can have different types of illustration and a lot of thinking about it strategically. Which technique do we need to choose to draw a certain type of jewel? It also depends on what we want to tell, to whom we want to show it. I see illustration as a really important tool for communication in jewelry.
Sharon: I like that, communicating. That’s very interesting. That’s the problem. Do you find that people come to you—let’s say they have an idea, but they say, “O.K., forget it. I can’t do it. You do it. You make the item or draw it”? Do you make the item?
Inesa: The school is more about illustration, not the design. Clearly, we are not designing for our students, and the students come to learn from our templates. We have templates to practice gemstones. We have certain volumes, like when it comes to painting metals. There are templates to draw bowls, cylinders and everything. It’s definitely not about designing a piece the students want to design, because design is a separate process.
I cannot create a volume for a person who wants to design, but when they come with certain questions like, “I have this design and I need to illustrate it,” then of course we can talk about it. When we have a course going on live, we have webinars. Students can come with their questions, and we can review what they need to do. I don’t draw it for them, but I do explain how to approach it sometimes. I can help break the piece into smaller details and help a person see their volume. It helps them to proceed further. Then they can say, “Ah, understood. Yes, indeed. There is a cylinder, and then there’s a line going there. It’s bent.” That’s how we are communicating about it.
Sharon: Let me ask you. I personally do not have any background in drawing human forms or architectural forms or designing jewelry or anything. Could you teach me? What happens? Who attends your school?
Inesa: We have students from different levels. There are indeed many people who have no background in drawing. Therefore, when it comes to very specific illustration, I try to simplify everything step by step. I would say it’s a 90% chance that you will do everything good enough to evolve if you follow the step-by-step instructions. That’s how the process is organized. We have step-by-step videos. At first comes the theoretical part, so you understand what is happening here and why we are drawing the shadow here. I quite enjoy breaking the diamond into two simple volumes and then analyzing the transparency and how the light shines through it. Then as a practical exercise, you would also need to learn which materials we use, how we use the brush. Most people succeed, and it’s always a pleasure to see sterling examples. Our students’ drawings are really good.
Sharon: Are they mostly young people? Are they people who work in the business? Do they come with different kinds of jewelry?
Inesa: I would say the audience is quite different. We have a very small percentage of professional designers who work in the industry. They come with very practical questions, and it’s always a pleasure to teach them. You can go further with them. You can explain more, and you also enjoy their progress a lot. We also have a lot of people working around the jewelry business. It might be a gemologist; it might be a jeweler, but not all jewelers draw. Many jewelers come to learn to draw. Among these people, some have some experience but very little, or some of them start from the beginning. That is about learning tips and tricks. What would be the most useful for you in your business? Why do you need these drawings? Some of them need to illustrate their process to create social media content to communicate with their clients. It actually becomes very helpful to them. They can communicate more clearly, and there is always a certain magic attached to something created by hand by yourself.
You asked about age. They are all ages. The youngest participant I remember, it was years ago. She wanted to draw, and she found this course. I don’t know if I was helpful to the parents, but she was keen to learn. She has a wonderful Instagram with many books she has already created at this age. We help many older people. I would probably say the same age as me. We have people about 50, 60. Recently we had a student who was 63. She talked openly about her age, so I think I can mention it.
Sharon: You mentioned gouache. Is everything done that way, or do you have different kinds of paint for different kinds of stones?
Inesa: We have two major courses. It’s also about answering the question of what we need to draw. When we need to draw simple jewels with volumes and perspective, then there is a sketching course. In the sketching course, we work with markers. It’s all about volumes, like how to sketch jewels in perspective.
Sharon: Which kind of course?
Inesa: Sketching jewelry.
Sharon: Sketching.
Inesa: Yeah.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to the JewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Michele Cottler-Fox
Michele Cottler-Fox is a physician jeweler, with a studio practice focusing on translating fiber techniques to metal, primarily crochet, knitting, and twining, and often incorporating found objects to tell a story. She was one of four metal artists chosen for the Heavy Metal exhibit by the Arkansas committee for the National Museum of Women in the Arts.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Physician-jeweler Michele Cottler-Fox struggled with dyscalculia—a math learning disability—as a child. When she began to study jewelry, she found math-heavy jewelry fabrication methods and measurements nearly impossible to understand. But instead of stopping her jewelry career in its tracks, this disadvantage pushed Michele to make her freeform crocheted metal designs. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she embraced her creative process; where her career as a physician and her career as a jewelry artist intersect; and why she loves crocheted designs.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. I am pleased to welcome Michele Fox to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. In addition to making a very unusual kind of jewelry, Michele is a physician who now works part time at the University of Arkansas Medical Center. Welcome back.
I have to say I was very impressed with how creative Little Rock was. I never thought I’d ever be in Little Rock, but it was a very creative town.
Michele: It has a strong art community. It was surprising to me how strong it is considering how small Little Rock is compared to Baltimore and Washington, but maybe I wasn’t as hooked into the communities in the city as I am here.
Sharon: Was it a big change to go from Baltimore or Washington to Little Rock?
Michele: It was a huge change. I came in 2000. When we got to Little Rock, there was no bakery making anything I recognized as bread. I thought, “How am I going to live here?” There was one butcher. There was almost no cheese that I recognized from Europe. But about a month after we got here, a couple who had lived and worked in San Francisco at very good food places came home, and they opened what they called Boulevard Bread, which is now Boulevard Bistro. Everything I had been missing was suddenly present.
Sharon: Did your profession influence the jewelry you were making? Did it matter at all?
Michele: It hasn’t influenced me very much. There’s a lot of plastic tubing in the machines I work with. At one point, I took the tubing home, filled it with stones and made a few necklaces, but it wasn’t satisfying somehow, not enough for my hands to do. So, I went back to the crochet hook.
Sharon: Do your patients comment on the things you’re wearing? Maybe you’re just wearing a lab coat. I don’t know.
Michele: I don’t wear a white coat at all because it makes people freeze. I want them to see me as a person, not a thing, so I always wear one of my brooches. It’s very often that the brooch breaks the ice in our conversation when I first meet a new patient. Some of them are so unlike anything people have seen before that before they even think about it, their mouth says, “What are you wearing? That’s so interesting.” I take it off. I let them hold it. We talk about it, and suddenly I’m a person, not a doctor. It’s a much better relationship that way, I think.
Sharon: It sounds like it’s surprising. They must be surprised that you would take off your pin, your necklace, and let them play with it.
Michele: They’re always a little shocked in the first place, but then they hold these things. As I said, the metal is so tactile, it almost feels like fabric. People turn it over, upside down, around and around, just because of the tactile sensation.
Sharon: Is that what attracted you to art jewelry versus, say, traditional jewelry?
Michele: I’m not 100% sure what it was that attracted me, except me that it was interesting and different. It allowed me to see what I made as part of a spectrum rather than just something weird and out of left field. I liked feeling that I was part of a new community that I had not realized existed.
Sharon: It’s interesting that you mentioned Betty Kessler because she was one of the first people I ever saw. I remember her, but I don’t remember the jewelry at all.
Do you go on trips to get ideas? Why do you go on the Art Jewelry Forum trips?
Michele: Very much to get ideas, but more to see how other people approach making things. Sometimes I’ll go round and round in my head for years trying to figure out how two things might relate to each other or might go together. Suddenly, on a trip, I’ll see something that makes me go, “Oh, dummy, why did you never think of that before?”
Sharon: That’s interesting.
Michele: I know what I’m supposed to be doing now.
Sharon: Do you usually come home and feel energized?
Michele: Always.
Sharon: When you go on these trips through Art Jewelry Forum, they are trips of the same 25, 20 people going year after year. I’ve seen people say, “I love what you’re wearing,” and you’ve taken it off and shown it to them. Would you say to a gallerist, “Here it is. I can make 25 of them”?
Michele: I’m still not sure how you best approach gallerists if your object is to sell something or become represented, but I have been in galleries where the gallerist has admired what I’m wearing, and I always take it off. I let them hold it and look at it, and I say, “This is my own work,” because I want to see what they think. I want to hear a spontaneous comment. Most of them have been very kind. One of the best criticisms I had early on was from Charon Kransen, who looked at my work and said, “It’s nice work, but you don’t need to be afraid.”
Sharon: Charon Kransen in New York.
Michele: It took me a long time to understand why he said that. I realized I was working in a very tight, very small fashion at the time, and that was the first clue I had to the fact that I could relax and start to open up what I was making. I didn’t need to be so tight and tiny and people could still like it.
Sharon: Did you ever go back to him and show him larger, more expansive pieces?
Michele: I’ve seen him at Schmuck in Munich wearing a piece of my bigger stuff.
Sharon: Wow! Are your colleagues surprised? Do you share that you make things? I’m thinking of my dentist. He has photographs around. Are they surprised you’re a maker?
Michele: When they first discover I’m a maker, yes, but I’ve been at my institution for 22 years now. A lot of people know I make jewelry. Most of the time what someone will say is, “Is that one of your pieces you’re wearing? I really like it.”
Sharon: Do you ever wear anybody else’s things, or only your things? I’ve only seen you in your things.
Michele: I have a nice collection of other people’s work. I do sometimes wear it, but I’m more likely to be wearing my own pieces.
Sharon: How do your colleagues find out that’s what you do? Do they overhear something?
Michele: They sometimes overhear. Two other jewelers and I have done a Christmas show at one of their homes for many years, and I always send colleagues invitations. So, some of them find out that way. I always tell them, “You’re welcome to bring friends if somebody else you know is interested.” In Little Rock people do things like that. They bring friends.
Sharon: These two jewelers who you do the show with, are they traditional jewelers? Are they hard-metal jewelers?
Michele: One is very much a high-end stone jeweler who designs custom jewelry, whose work I love and own. The other gal is somewhere between mine and hers. She works primarily with PMC.
Sharon: The polymer clay.
Michele: Yeah. It’s a good range in style and price. Every once in a while, somebody buys something from all three of us, which is a big day.
Sharon: Have you considered making other jewelry with anything else besides wire and the knitting?
Michele: I have worked with anything that looks and acts like string. I particularly love working with 30-pound-test fishing line because it comes in very bright colors and a broad range of colors. I actually find people have more difficulty dealing with those pieces than they do with the crocheted metal.
Sharon: You have to choose the color and the weight and all that, right? For the person who’s choosing the jewelry, that would be hard. I’ve never seen you wear it, but you do make brighter things.
Michele: Yes. The fishing line pieces are often the biggest pieces I make. I make flowers that will fill the entire center of your chest.
Sharon: Like a Sex and the City flower that was so popular. Do you ever crochet just for your own pleasure with yarn?
Michele: I really don’t crochet yarn. Having become accustomed to making solid, three-dimensional objects in wire, I’ve gotten to the point where yarn is frustrating because it’s soft and it collapses. I have combined yarn with metal and enjoyed doing that. I have combined plastic crocheted work with pearls and felted fabric that a friend makes.
Sharon: The stuff you wear, I’ve always seen just plain metals. You do have other things you make. Do you sell those? Do you put them out? Do you have them in galleries?
Michele: Everything I make, at the very least, goes out at the Christmas sale so I can get feedback from people. The one thing I love about selling, aside from the fact that it’s very nice to see people want your work enough to actually pay for it, is to see people react to the new pieces. I get to see whether they like it, whether they don’t like it, and, if so, why. It helps me get a better understanding of how other people see my work.
Sharon: Have you ever liked something a lot that other people didn’t like? Did you modify what you were doing? Has it impacted you?
Michele: It’s disappointed me. I really love the fishing line work, but there aren’t a lot of other people who do, at least in Little Rock. It hasn’t stopped me from making the pieces. I just have a lot of it at home; that’s all.
Sharon: I have to start going fishing. It seems a little awkward—I don’t know if they would do it in L.A.—but would they come up and say, “Oh, that’s so good. I’ve got to try it myself”?
Michele: Oh yeah, sure, but I warn them that it’s quite a different thing to crochet metal than to crochet yarn. The way they’re used to working with the hook is not going to work with the metal. When I started there were no books about it, so I had to work things out on my own. There are now several books that will tell you how to crochet with metal, but the other thing about my work is that I don’t crochet traditional patterns. There are other people who do fabulous pattern work in wire, whose work I admire and some of which I own, but that’s not what I do. I’m literally sculpting a form out of a sheet of metal fabric as I work.
Sharon: Do you think if you were more, I don’t want to say exacting, but if you didn’t have this issue with the numbers and measuring, do you think it would be different?
Michele: I’m sure it would be. I don’t know that I would ever have started crocheting. I would probably have stuck with fabrication.
Sharon: Is a lot of your work freeform because of it? You’re not counting; you’re not following a pattern; you’re not saying how big it should be.
Michele: Exactly. My eye is very good at judging size and distance and shape. As a kid, I would frustrate my geometry teacher enormously because she would see that I had produced on a test exactly the shape I was supposed to produce, but she could see that the points where my protractor had been were absolutely incorrect. She couldn’t figure out how I was getting the right shape. I just coped with what could have been a major hindrance. There are always workarounds. They are ways to do what you need to do if you just keep at it.
Sharon: Is that something you’ve had to explain to people who don’t do what you do, who may have been stopped by the fact that they couldn’t count how many stitches? Do you say that?
Michele: I tell them that what I’m doing is nontraditional and I can’t help them with understanding the patterns. I just encourage them to work at it, to not get frustrated. The other thing I learned was that as I’m making something, it will always look ugly early on. There’s just no way around it. At some midpoint in making a piece, it suddenly turns into what I want. That moment, when it suddenly becomes a thing, is really wonderful. It’s precious.
Sharon: Your jewelry can be worn in so many ways. Do you make something that might be a pin or might be a hairclip? Do you decide before you start what it’s going to be?
Michele: I know what I think I’m making when I start. More than once, I’ve discovered once I finish it that it’s really something else. I also like playing with my jewelry, as you know, so I have many pieces that are multifunctional. One of my new favorites is a bracelet, or what I meant to be a bracelet, which turned into a pin. I prefer it as a pin to a bracelet, but it also works as a pendant. I need to decide how I’m going to sell these things. Should I tell someone, “You think you’re buying a pin, but if you unwind the pin back off it, you have both a bracelet and a pendant.” Most people don’t want to play with their jewelry. They want it to be a thing and worn as that thing.
Sharon: I relate to that because I want it one way. Would you then go back and make something that can be made into a pin??
Michele: I can. If someone says, “Could you please make it a permanent pin?” that’s easy. To make it a permanent pendant, all I’d do is take the pin back off and string a chain through it. But to my mind, a multifunctional piece is a lot more fun.
Sharon: What if somebody came along and said, “I’m looking for a bracelet,” or “I’m looking for a necklace”? Would you say to somebody, “I could just make a bracelet,” not even showing them what you have? Could you make a bracelet that’s just a bracelet?
Michele: Oh, I do make things that are just one thing. I have a very tall bottle which I have stacked bracelets on. It was like a bracelet tower. Although I have noticed that sometimes I take round bracelets and put a chain through them and suddenly have a pendant. I can’t help myself.
Sharon: I have to say I have seen people, at least from our group, grab what you have and want to touch it or buy it. They’re like, “Oh, this is so different and unusual.” My number two thing I always remember about you is something I was so surprised by. You said to me once, “Go look at this place. They have bracelets.” Bracelets are my thing. You said, “You might like them.” I was really surprised, because there are a lot of bracelets in the world and a lot of bracelets I don’t like, but I felt like Michele knew what I liked. I think that’s very surprising when it comes to jewelry.
Michele: I spend a lot of time looking at how other people wear jewelry, trying to understand why someone chooses to wear what they wear. I think I have a good gestalt sense of what people might like. Sometimes they surprise me, but I’m a pretty good judge of what somebody’s going to like.
Sharon: When you’re making things you know are going to go on a Christmas sale, do you make, let’s say, more pins because you know people like more pins, or they want more bracelets or more necklaces? Do you think about that?
Michele: No, actually, I try to make, or at least take to the show, roughly equal amounts of different kinds of things. Someone who wanted all bracelets last year quite often will come back this year and want necklaces.
Sharon: That’s interesting.
Michele: The other thing I’ve noticed is that, with my work at least, people often buy earrings first because they’re smaller. They’re not sure about this crocheted metal stuff, but if they like the earrings, they’ll very often come back and want a bracelet or a necklace next year.
Sharon: Do you think it’s different in Little Rock than it would be in a larger place? Would they be more discombobulated, maybe? That’s not the right word, but—
Michele: I think in the beginning people in Little Rock had a lot of difficulty deciding what they thought about my work. There were always a few people who were enthusiastically positive. As they wore the work around, people got used to seeing it and it wasn’t so strange anymore. Over time, I think generally women have been changing what they wear for jewelry. It’s not so much the gold and big stones. It’s a “nothing else matters” kind of approach to jewelry. People are more willing to take a chance on something that looks a little different or a little bit funky.
Sharon: I don’t think I’ve even seen any of your kind of jewelry. We’ll have pictures, as I said, on the website, but I’ve never seen jewelry that looks like yours. Thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your background.
Michele: It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Michele Cottler-Fox
Michele Cottler-Fox is a physician jeweler, with a studio practice focusing on translating fiber techniques to metal, primarily crochet, knitting, and twining, and often incorporating found objects to tell a story. She was one of four metal artists chosen for the Heavy Metal exhibit by the Arkansas committee for the National Museum of Women in the Arts.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Physician-jeweler Michele Cottler-Fox struggled with dyscalculia—a math learning disability—as a child. When she began to study jewelry, she found math-heavy jewelry fabrication methods and measurements nearly impossible to understand. But instead of stopping her jewelry career in its tracks, this disadvantage pushed Michele to make her freeform crocheted metal designs. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she embraced her creative process; where her career as a physician and her career as a jewelry artist intersect; and why she loves crocheted designs.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
I am pleased to welcome Michele Fox to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. I’ve gotten to know Michele through several of the trips we’ve taken as part of Art Jewelry Forum. In addition to making very unusual jewelry, Michele is a physician who now works part time at the University of Arkansas Medical Center. We’ll learn all about her jewelry journey today. Michele, welcome to the program.
Michele: Thank you for having me, Sharon.
Sharon: I’m so glad. It’s great to have a chance to talk to you uninterrupted. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you artistic as a child? Did you know you wanted to be a doctor?
Michele: I come from a family where women didn’t sit with idle hands. My grandmother taught me to crochet and knit before I was six years old. I can remember very clearly her saying to me, “Don’t ever crochet. You do not know how to count properly.” I put the crochet hook away at an early age, picked up the needles and never looked back. I taught myself to embroider and to do needlepoint, but my family, for the most part, never thought about me as being a creative type. I did have a great aunt, very much an Auntie Mame type of person, who was a dress designer. She thought I was creative and tried very hard to encourage me, but the rest of the family, being engineers and physicians, they won.
Sharon: So, your family was more science oriented.
Michele: Very much.
Sharon: Can you tell us about your jewelry education? Did you go to GIA? What did your jewelry education entail?
Michele: I was self-taught from the beginning almost to the end. I grew up in a family where jewelry was the gift of preference for all special events. My father had worked as a teenager in an import/export business, so he knew many of the people involved in stone cutting and stone selling in New York City. I would tag along with him as a kid when he went to say hi. One of my favorite experiences was meeting a man who sold opals and being allowed to choose my own gift from everything in the case. It was overwhelming. While being seven or eight years old, there was a little glass bubble filled with opal chips and liquid that hung from a pendant. I still have it.
Sharon: Wow! And you still have it. Do you wear it? I haven’t seen it, I don’t think.
Michele: I pretty much stopped wearing anything around my neck when I began working in the hospital full time. Necklaces have a tendency to go straight down into patient’s faces which when you are trying to listen to their lungs or their heart.
Sharon: Were you attracted to glittery things besides this case?
Michele: I loved stones. I loved the color and the shape and the light when you move them. In fact, after graduate school, I took a class learning to cut stones and to polish them. I ran up against the fact that I’m both dyslexic and dyscalculic, which means measuring and numbers are very difficult for me. Although I could polish stones beautifully and evenly, I could never figure out the faceting machine. So, I gave that up.
Sharon: Did you want to be a maker after school?
Michele: I thought for many years that I wanted to be a maker of some sort, but there was really no time to go to school. So, I started designing jewelry and trying to find people to make it for me. There were a lot of gold and silversmiths in the Baltimore/ Washington area. I would look at what was available at the ACC Baltimore Craft Show and try to find a maker from my area who was showing there and talk them into making something for me. I rather rapidly learned that describing what you want to someone when you don’t understand what’s involved leads to some major disasters.
Sharon: That’s a really interesting idea. I never thought of that. It seems like on this side of the country, there’s not much going on.
I met you through Art Jewelry Forum, so I’ve only seen you be attracted to what I would call avant garde jewelry. What attracted you to that?
Michele: It was a very slow shift from classic jewelry onwards. I had exposure to good design from makers sold by Tiffany and Georg Jensen as a child and teenager. I didn’t know at the time that I was seeing Georg’s work and very famous Scandinavian gold and silversmiths. My husband and I lived in Sweden after I had a degree in research biology and before I went to medical school, and I discovered that all the things I liked best were Scandinavian. So, I started learning about classic Scandinavian jewelry while we lived there.
When I came back to the States after medical school, I started looking for galleries and more modern makers in the Baltimore/Washington area. I was very fortunate in meeting a gallerist who had a gallery at the time in Baltimore called Oxoxo, which no longer exists. The gallerist retired many years ago, but I would stop in on my way home after a Saturday on call at the hospital and she’d let me play. I would try everything on in the gallery. I would always find the one thing that wasn’t properly made. I’d say, “How does this work?” and then it would break in my hands, to the point where I felt I was a disaster. But the gallerist had a different take on it. She said, “You need to come the night before I open a show and try everything because then I’ll find the one thing that isn’t going to work. I wouldn’t have it in the show to scare people.” We got to be good friends, and she helped educate me about what I was looking at and the makers. One day she said, “You have such good ideas about what you’re looking at. You really need to learn how to make something like this,” but there was no time. The Maryland Institute College of Art, MICA, was literally visible from my office window in the hospital, but there was no time to go, which was very frustrating.
Then I was offered a job in Little Rock and took it. I suddenly discovered I had three hours a day in my life that I never had before because I was no longer commuting. There was a night school attached to the art center, and I started to take classes. Again, I came head-to-head with the fact that I’m dyscalculic, which means I can’t measure worth a darn and I can’t count, so fabrication drove me crazy. I couldn’t stand it. So, I stopped taking classes and I thought, “All right, I’m just going to figure this out on my own.”
I was home sick one weekend. I had a spool of wire I had bought for something that didn’t work, and I had crochet hooks and knitting needles at the side of the bed because that’s what I did when I was home alone. I thought, “I wonder,” and I picked up the spool of wire, which was silver. I threaded on some random beads and started to crochet, and the necklace self-assembled. I had no idea what I was doing, but my hands made something that was beautiful and wearable, and I thought, “O.K., I’ve got to do more of this.” I still have that necklace, which is amethyst beads on silver wire.
Sharon: You thought it was so beautiful. Did you consider selling it? What happened?
Michele: Absolutely. Selling started as an accident, as most good things in my life have been. I walked into a local gallery, and the gal behind the counter—who was the owner, it turned it out—looked at what I was wearing, my own work, and said, “Do you sell your work?” I said, “Well, I’d like to. Why?” She said, “I want to carry it.” So, I gave her some earrings and a couple of necklaces. Being very young at the business, I said to her, “Here’s my beeper number. I’m a physician. I’m always on call. If somebody actually buys one of these, please let me know.” She laughed, and I’ll be darned if two days later I didn’t get a beep saying, “Your earrings sold.”
Sharon: Did you make more?
Michele: Of course. I was hooked. It was a novel experience, that I could suddenly make somebody happy. I’m trained as a hematologist/oncologist, and most of what I have to tell patients does not make them happy.
Sharon: I can believe that.
Michele: This sense of joy that people got from picking up and trying my stuff on was an overwhelmingly positive experience that I wanted to continue.
Sharon: Did you consider yourself a salesperson?
Michele: No. I’m bad at it. The gallerist is now one of my best friends. She grew up in a retail family, and she shakes her head every time we do a show together. She knows how to present her work. She knows how to sell her work. I just tell people what I made, why I made it and how I did it. It’s good enough. They take my stuff home anyway.
Sharon: So, you don’t have to sell it; it sells itself.
Michele: It’s a very tactile form of jewelry, and it is very different from what most people are accustomed to seeing. I learned that there are some people who look at it and say, “Well, it looks like a Brillo pad. Why would I pay money for that?” and that’s O.K. I have no ego about it, none. I want my pieces to go to someone who loves it. I prefer that people who are not enthusiastic about it not have it.
Sharon: I have to stop here and say even though we show images on the website, we’re not showing what you’re talking about. Everything you have is crocheted or knitted wire. It’s all, like you said, the Brillo pad look. I never thought of a Brillo pad, but it’s wire crochet. It’s very interesting and freeform, much of it. What do you do?
Michele: My hands figure out what to make. For many years I thought that meant I wasn’t really an artist, until I started reading what artists I admired said about their own manner of working. I read an essay by Becky Kessler, who is a Dutch artist I love, and she said exactly the same thing I’ve been saying. Her hands decide what to make and she just goes along with it. As her hands work, she has many different options, but the choice of what to make is her hands’ choice.
Sharon: Do you have wire next to your chair or your bed and you just decide to do it?
Michele: That’s exactly right. The spools of wire are in a basket at bedside. The crochet hooks are in a copper bowl at bedside.
Sharon: Are you knitting or crocheting? I know the difference, but looking at it, I can’t tell.
Michele: Most of the time these days, I’m crocheting. Knitting is a little bit more difficult physically for me. I have to do it around the needle or it falls off continuously. The stitches don’t slip off the way they would if they were yarn, so it’s easy to recover, but it was more frustrating, I think. With the crocheted pieces, my hand can make round things or flat things. I noticed a long time ago that the hook is in my right hand, but my left hand actually forms what I’m making as I move. So, even when I teach someone to make exactly what I make, it never looks the same because their hand forms it differently.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Michele, there are two things I remember about you. One is that you didn’t speak any Swedish before you went to Sweden to medical school there, right?
Michele: That’s absolutely correct.
Sharon: That is amazing to me. And now you say you don’t know numbers or fractions. What you did is really amazing.
Michele: There are workarounds for everything if you’re determined. I think “determined” ought to have been my first name rather than Michele.
Sharon: Were you determined to be a doctor, a physician, a scientist, a bio-researcher? What were you going to be?
Michele: At the age of 12, having read science fiction hidden in my physician uncle’s library, I decided I wanted to go to space, but I knew even back then that, as a woman, I was going to have difficulty getting into an official program for space. I decided that if I were a physician and I had gone through a psychology major in college, I might have a better shot at it. I was thinking, “Be a surgeon. Have a backup plan as psychologist, and maybe there will be a position for me on a space station or a colony on the moon.”
Sharon: Where you can crochet.
Michele: I wasn’t even thinking about that. My grandmother had said, “Put it away. You don’t know how to count.” Once I decided that’s what I was going to do, I just walked in a straight line. I applied to colleges that had strong psychology programs. I ended up going to Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts, which was the only school that Sigmund Freud had visited. It was also a college where Robert Goddard, the father of rocketry in this country, had worked. I had exactly what I wanted all in one place. Of course, taking the introduction to psychology class disabused me completely of the notion of being a psychologist. I ended up a biology major with a minor in English.
Sharon: That’s an interesting combination. I bet you’re the only one who has a biology major and a minor in English. What would your grandmother say now that you crochet and that people want the things you make?
Michele: I think about that often. I see her shaking her head or rolling her eyes. The English major put me in very good stead because I’ve been a language editor for all my working life. I primarily help people who do not have English as a first language but need to write in English.
Sharon: Do you read what they’ve written and say, “This is what you really meant to say,” or “This is how you’d say it in English”?
Michele: I fix it for them.
Sharon: I know you still work part time, but when you decided to retire, was your plan that you would have more time to make jewelry?
Michele: That was exactly what I had planned. I thought it would be a very easy segue from full-time physician to full-time artist. My initial plan was that I’d take the first year after retirement and go to school to learn better techniques. Of course, I chose to retire in July 2019, which meant I found myself confronting the pandemic.
Sharon: So, you had a lot of time on your own.
Michele: I had two straight years at home. I focused on making things that were much bigger than I had the time to make beforehand. As I was thinking about all the changes the pandemic was inflicting on us, I started to work in series. My first series I called “Social Distancing is Awkward.” As the pandemic progressed, I made a series called “Controlled, Constrained and Confined.”
Sharon: Was that just the name you gave it, or did you form it around the name?
Michele: In that case, I actually had the name first and I was thinking about how I could represent it. My hands gave me a way. I’ve always worked in series to some extent because as I make one thing, I see a different way I could have done it, and I need to make that in order to see if it works. After “Controlled, Constrained and Confined,” I made one called “What Galaxy Do You Live In?”
Sharon: When you said you made them larger, did you mean you wanted to bring them to a gallery? Were they too large to wear?
Michele: Very few of my things are too large to wear, particularly since I have a good friend and fellow member of AJF in Little Rock who says it’s not big enough. I have a couple of galleries in Little Rock that take my work. They’ve never shied away from any of the things I bring them, and I have brought several big things. People aren’t nearly as frightened of them as I always thought they would be, which has been a pleasant surprise. This year I’ve been working on a series called “Broken People” because of what I see around me.
Sharon: That’s a good name. I have to say I was very impressed with how creative Little Rock was. I never thought I’d ever be in Little Rock, but it was a very creative town.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Matt Burkholz is an antique dealer with a focus on fine 1920s and 1930s Celluloid and Bakelite jewelry, and the owner of Route 66 West in Palm Springs, a fine, vintage, retro and couture costume jewelry store. Route 66 West is the culmination of a decades-long journey as a historian and purveyor of fine vintage jewelry and decorative accessories.
Matt is an art historian by training and his approach to jewelry reflects his academic vision and combines it with 40 years of owning and operating galleries in New York City, Miami Beach, upstate New York and Palm Springs. He is the author of “The Bakelite Collection,” the foremost leading reference source on the subject. Additionally, Matt has written for numerous magazines and publications, and has appeared on Martha Stewart TV, Antiques Roadshow and other television programs as a highly respected subject matter expert.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Beatriz Chadour-Sampson
Beatriz Chadour-Sampson studied art history, classical archaeology and Italian philology at the University of East Anglia, and at the University of Münster, Germany. Her doctoral thesis was on the Italian Renaissance goldsmith Antonio Gentili da Faenza. In 1985 she published the jewelry collection of the Museum für Angewandte Kunst, Cologne. Since 1988 she has worked freelance as a jewelry historian, curator of exhibitions and academic writer in Britain. Her numerous publications on jewelry, ranging from antiquity to the present day, include the The Gold Treasure from the Nuestra Señora de la Concepción (1991), and 2000 Finger Rings from the Alice and Louis Koch Collection, Switzerland (1994). She was the consultant curator in the re-designing of the William and Judith Bollinger Jewelry Gallery at the Victoria & Albert Museum (opened in 2008), London and was guest curator of the ‘Pearl’ exhibition (2013-14). She is an Associate Member of the Goldsmiths’ Company, London.
Today Beatriz Chadour-Sampson works as a freelance international and jewelry historian and scholarly author. Her extensive publications range from Antiquity to the present day.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Working in jewelry sometimes means being a detective. As a freelance jewelry historian and curator of the Alice and Louis Koch Ring Collection at the Swiss National Museum, Beatriz Chadour-Sampson draws on her wealth of knowledge to find jewelry clues—even when a piece has no hallmark or known designer. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she creates jewelry exhibits that engage viewers; how she found her way into the niche of shipwreck jewelry; and what it was like to catalogue 2,600 rings. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. My guest is Beatriz Chadour-Sampson. She’s been the curator of the Alice and Louis Koch Ring Collection at the Swiss National Museum for almost 35 years. Welcome back.
Beatriz: You asked about the catalogue. We didn’t know if the exhibition was going ahead at one point, but I was asked by V&A Publishing to do a book on pearls, which I did. So, yes, we did a book which was for sale during the exhibition. That was in 2013. We redesigned the jewelry gallery, and 2008 was the end of that. The pearls exhibition was in 2013, the beginning of 2014.
Sharon: Why was it redesigned, the gallery?
Beatriz: The jewelry gallery. With all galleries, there comes a point where they need to be refreshed and renewed, and the previous design needed it. You even had gates you had to get through, and if you weren’t quite as slim as myself, you would have problems getting through the gates. When it was redesigned, it was a completely different aesthetic. As I said, the boards have to tell the story, so when the visitor walks in, they have to understand the story and go from one to the other. Some people say the gallery is very full, but it is a study collection. We asked the education department artists to do certain things.
I was very keen on going “from cradle to grave.” The gallery is chronological, so you want a display before you start to know why you wear jewelry. A child wears jewelry or a mother wears jewelry to protect them at childbirth, or they wear it for status or religion or whatever it is. Jewelry is multitasking, multifunctional. Today we think of jewelry as decorative, but that is not the case. Jewelry was made for an occasion and a reason. With status, you always have the big diamonds and the big stones. That has always existed, in recently centuries definitely. But there are so many more reasons for jewelry, for mourning and birth and good luck. That sort of exists today, probably with charms. So, jewelry is multifunctional.
Then we have a screen with pictures from different centuries showing portraits because, at a jewelry gallery, you can’t see the pieces on someone. They need the body, but they don’t have the body. So, it’s good to have a screen showing how the jewelry was worn through the centuries, which is very important. Also in the display, each board—let’s say you had earrings, a necklace and a bracelet. The concept was that what you wear on the top of the head goes on top. What you wear around your neck comes next and then the base, so you have a feeling of an abstract body in a way. It’s not always obvious, but I try to think of it logically.
Of course, with the contemporary, we couldn’t do that. It is all chronological until you get to about the 1950s, and that’s it. You have to find a completely different concept. So, we decided to do it by materials. Good chronology at the beginning, but then it comes into materials. Natural materials, new metals, techniques. You couldn’t do decades. That couldn’t work. So, we did it by materials, which is an interesting aspect because you have all the different materials they use in comparison to all the gold and silver you see throughout the gallery. Suddenly, you’re seeing a whole wall of completely different materials.
Sharon: What is your role as co-curator? You’re curator and co-curator of so many places. What’s your role as a co-curator? What do you do? What do they call in you for?
Beatriz: It’s an advisory role. The Victoria and Albert Museum is a bit more than just an advisory role. You’re working with the team, with the architect. It’s a team procedure, but as I say, everybody has their own role to play. It intermingles, of course.
Sharon: At other times, you’ve talked about a different museum in Switzerland where you came, and it looked just—was it at eye level? Was it low? Was it too high?
Beatriz: Oh, that one, no. You remembered that detail. The eye level, that was the Victoria and Albert Museum. That is in the center of the gallery because we did a display for a tourist who goes to the museum and only has 10 minutes to look at jewelry history. So, in the center you’ve got these curved glass cases. The jewelry is on special mounts. You remember that. I asked my colleagues of different heights, from four foot something to six foot something. In the storage room, we had glass doors where there was a lot of storage space with artifacts in it, and I used Post-it Notes to put the different heights of people to see what a good eye level is. So, if you’re looking at a broach or a tiara or something, you want it on the level where you more or less visualize it on your body so you can see it well. So, yes, that’s the Post-it Notes. I used not only double-sided tape and pieces of paper, but also Post-it Notes, trying to find the right height for the pieces.
Eye level is hugely important, but the other museum you’re thinking of may be something I’m current advising on. This is really an advisory role. It is a museum that will open next year, the Dubedeen, a German museum. Of course, there are gemologists there that are very specialized, but their museum experience is missing. So, I’m giving a little bit of advice on the background of things. Don’t put a plinth that you can fall over. Don’t make drawers that a child can get their fingers caught in. You learn these things from places like the Victoria and Albert Museum. There’s health and safety. There’s also the height of displays, the attention span of visitors. Text shouldn’t be too long. It's more of an advisory role than an active role.
Sharon: I’m thinking about attention span. You must have seen that really go down. It seems nobody has more than two seconds for attention anymore.
Beatriz: There is an element of that. I think the Koch Collection of rings in the Jewelry Gallery is one of the most visited in the England museums. When you get to sparkle and glitter, there’s more attention span, but not so much on the text.
Sharon: Yeah, that’s probably true. You’ve also done a lot of work on shipwrecks. That’s very interesting.
Beatriz: That goes back to 1989. By sheer coincidence, I came to work on shipwrecks. I was in New York when I was working on the Concepción Collection. I met Priscilla Muller of the Hispanic Society of America in New York, and I helped her with some Spanish and Portuguese jewelry. When she was asked, she just didn’t have the time to work on the shipwrecks. She thought with my Spanish and Portuguese knowledge, I would be suited for that, so I was asked by Pacific Sea Resources in 1989 to work on an incredible shipwreck called the Nuestra Señora de la Concepción from 1638 that sank. It was the usual thing, mutiny and the wrong person taking care of the ship. That’s a private story, not a jewelry story, but the interesting thing is that the jewelry was basically made for Spaniards in the Philippines. The jewelry was made in the Philippines, the majority of it for Spaniards. It was a Spanish colony at the time.
When I was first went through it, I thought, “It looks quite European. It looks O.K.” I signed the contract, and little did I know how much research was involved for the material, which I hardly knew. It was because of the influence. The Spaniards definitely had European design books they brought with them. By then, you had printed books with designs in them, and they must have had them there. Chinese craftsmen were working for them in the Philippines, and of course the Chinese had great skills with outside countries. Some of it looks very European, and some of it is Indian influences, Siamese influences, and influences from Java, Sumatra. The chains, heavy gold chains, were certainly Chinese filigree. In fact, I told the Ashmolean Museum it belonged to Sir Elias Ashmole, whose portrait and chains still exist in the Ashmolean Museum, and I told them that one of the gold chains he had was Chinese. It was given by the Kuffners from Brandenburg, and I happened to find out that the Kuffners from Brandenburg travelled to China. So, that all fit. That was a little like detective work. That was published in 1990.
I’ve recently been working again on shipwrecks, just a few pieces of absolutely fascinating jewelry found off the shore of the Bahamas, which has now been in the Maritime Museum on the Bahamas for only a few months. I also worked on the Atocha in Key West. I organized an exhibition in Hanover for them, where we did a display of the Atocha and Santa Margarita events. But what’s so fascinating about shipwrecks is that we see so many portraits of beautiful jewelry from the Renaissance, the 16th, 17th centuries, where they really documented beautifully painted jewelry in paintings. Thanks to that we can study them in detail. All this jewelry doesn’t exist anymore, especially gold chains, because gold chains were the easiest thing to melt and reuse for more modern jewelry. As I have said, I have a smile when somebody talks to me about recycled gold being something new. Well, it's nothing new. Recycling gold goes back centuries.
Sharon: I’m surprised because in the pictures, you always think it’s a straightforward gold chain with no Chinese engraving or anything. You think of it as a gold chain.
Beatriz: Some of it is simple, what they called a P-chain. You saw loads of it, especially on Dutch paintings. But in the Atocha there was a spiral. You can see they’re very tidy on the portraits, but it looks as if they had a spiral at the back holding the chain so they flowed down properly. Some of those chains we had were definitely Chinese filigree because those chains are filigree. In the 1655 shipwreck from the Bahamas, there’s a chain like that, and that’s mainly why they asked me to look at it. That certainly reminded me of some of the Concepción work, which was Chinese craftsmanship.
The trade was amazing. You had trade happening in the Philippines. Even the Dutch were trading with the Spaniards. The Dutch were trading silks and spices from China and so on. These big galleons went from the Philippines to Acapulco and Vera Cruz and then to Havana. They went on a route around South America, loading and offloading things from Europe. It’s interesting because in Seville, there’s the Archivo General de Indias, and there they have all the books on the shipping material. Like with the Atocha, they found out which ship it was because the gold bars have a text mark on them, and that coincided with the documents they have in Seville. It’s fascinating. It’s a fascinating field.
Sharon: It seems like it.
Beatriz: It’s a mystery and it’s global, of course. Made in Asia; there’s nothing new. It’s hundreds of years. There would not be any porcelain in 18th century Europe the other way around.
Sharon: Do you get to see the ship right away? When it comes up, do you see it when they pull it from the ocean?
Beatriz: No. When I was asked to work on the Concepción, I had to travel to Singapore where it was being cleaned and conserved. In one instance I had to say, “Stop cleaning because I think there’s enamel underneath, black and white enamel. Stop.” You have to be careful because you have to get rid of the marine dirt. No, I got to see it after it was cleaned or while it was being cleaned.
Sharon: Wow! And then what? It goes to the museum? What happens afterwards?
Beatriz: It nearly got split up and sold at auction. I’m glad it didn’t because it’s a historical find, but unfortunately you have to go the Mariana Islands to see it. You can’t see it always. The material is put together, and it was published in a black and white archaeological report. It was published in 1990, so at least it’s documented. National Geographic did a beautiful spread with color, so you know what it’s like.
Sharon: What have you learned from parsing these shipwrecks, from researching the shipwrecks?
Beatriz: The extent of influence in Europe of some motifs and how far they went. It was made in the Philippines and sold in Europe because everything that was made and transported on this galleon, the Atocha, at some point went to Seville and then it was traded on. We definitely know that the emeralds the emperors were after came from Colombia and then went through Havana to Seville. It’s a fascinating trade, but the trade is something we never think about. In Roman times, the Roman emperor wanted pearls, so they traveled to southern India to get pearls. History does amaze one.
Sharon: It does. You’re working on many projects now. What can you tell us about some of them?
Beatriz: I can tell you what’s half-finished and what’s coming. I’ve had a year of three books. I co-edited a book with Sandra Hindman, founder of Les Enluminures. I need to add Les Enluminures because for many years, I’ve been their jewelry consultant. They’re based in Chicago, New York and Paris and are specialized mainly in Medieval and Renaissance jewelry, but this has nothing to do with the book we did. It just happened to be that we worked together again. Sandra and myself did something called a liber amicorum in honor of Diana Scarisbrick, a leading jewelry historian. It was for her 94th birthday, and we kept it a secret until her birthday. It had 20 authors in three languages all writing in her honor. That has come out. It’s now available. It was published by Paul Holberton. It’s on varied topics, from archaeology to today, really. 20 authors contributed towards that.
Today I received my copy of a book I worked on for the Schmuckmuseum, so it’s now published. The launch is on Sunday, but I won’t be traveling to Germany for that, unfortunately. It has to be a Zoom celebration for me. It’s to do with the humanist Johann Reuchlin. He was from Pforzheim. He lived in the late 15th to the 16th century, and it’s about script and jewelry from varying periods. It’s a lot of contemporary jewelry as well. The cover doesn’t really tell you that because it was the 500th anniversary of, I think, his death date. So, he was honored in this book, which has just come out, with essays from many people. Lots and lots of jewelry. That was published by Arnoldsche, and it’s called—I have to think of it—German sounds so much easier in this case. It means script and pictures worn on the finger. I worked on rings with script on them.
Sharon: With writing you mean?
Beatriz: Yeah, writing, that’s it. There are a lot of other topics in the book as well, but jewelry is certainly the dominant. Yes, they are rings. Mary Queen of Scotts is somebody who wrote her inscription inside the ring and was loyal to the queen. Had that been seen, her head would have gone to the chop. It’s rings with prayers on them or rings with some sort of amuletic inscriptions. It’s all inscriptions on rings in my case, and it’s about Josiah Wedgwood who gave this ring to John Flaxman. You’ve got a whole history behind it. It’s rings with script on them, highly visible on the bezel, either visible on the bezel or inside the hoop.
Sharon: In English or German?
Beatriz: It’s basically German, I’m afraid to say, but with lots of good pictures with excellent captions, which are international. I am bilingual in German and English, but I haven’t written German for a long time.
I’ve actually written a third book that’s coming out, but that won’t come out until January. That was a huge task. It’s on jewelry from Bossard from Lucerne. It started in the early 19th century, but the two I worked on were a father and son from 1869 until 1934. That was the period of historicism. It was also a time of fakes of Renaissance jewelry being made, because there were so many collectors who wanted Renaissance but couldn’t afford the real Renaissance jewelry. So, it was very tempting for fakers to make fake jewelry. When I started, I didn’t know what I was in for, but I have come to the conclusion that it’s pure historicism, what Bossard made. I had very little jewelry to go on, just a few pieces in private hands, but I did find by sheer coincidence a drawing, and I found the bishop who it belonged to. You have a hundred drawings by the Bossard Company over this whole period, and it’s very interesting material to see their designs they were making. In some instances, it’s real Renaissance. I don’t know if they were Renaissance or if it was actually made later. Then it gets critical. It’s a very complex period, but a very interesting archive in the Swiss National Museum in Zurich.
Sharon: For next year, do you have other projects going on?
Beatriz: Yes, the coming projects. I mentioned the gem museum, which is opening next year. I’m in the midst of advising. I’m going to be working very shortly—I’ve already started a bit—on the jeweler Eileen Coyne from London. She’s been working on jewelry since the 1970s and continues to make jewelry very, very different to anything I’ve worked on before. What I find so fascinating is that her imagination and inspiration come from the material. It comes with the material and the tools. She also uses interesting gemstones and beads that come from ethnic backgrounds. She uses the most amazing materials. Also jades, carnelians, all kinds of things. So, we’re going to do a book. She had a shop in the 80s and into the 90s. Her jewelry was displayed in Harvey Nichols in London, and she had a shop where all the celebrities and royals went shopping. It was quite an interesting clientele. We’ll see if we get photographs or if they allow us to show some of the things they bought. It’s very much about discretion in such cases. So, that’s interesting, a completely different type of jewelry.
I’m really excited about it, but at the same time, I’ve also been involved, and am more involved now, in an artificial intelligence project. That is a ring that has been designed by Sylvia Reidenbach and John Emeny in England. Sylvia Reidenbach is German, but she teaches in Glasgow and London and all over Europe as well. She has created, with John Emeny, a ring with artificial intelligence based on one or two rings from the archaeological museum in Munich, a few rings from the
Germanisches Nationalmuseum in Nuremburg, and 150 rings from the Koch Collection. There’s one design. The machine makes the design, mixes it all and combines it into one design. The ring is now being made. The stone is labradorite. It’s been on display since Wednesday last week in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum but will be coming to Zurich afterwards. So, I’ll be learning a lot about AI and design. That is completely different from anything. I like the natural materials and history, and then the contrast is the AI.
Sharon: The AI is the dimensions of all these hundreds of rings?
Beatriz: Yes, the images are put into the machine, the AI. Don’t ask me the technology of it because I haven’t got a clue about AI technology. I’m at the beginning of it all. I’m learning, but I have seen how it develops. The images are fed into the machine, like the 150 rings from the Koch Collection and the others, and the machine designs one ring out of that.
Sharon: Wow! So, it’s already made and in the museum.
Beatriz: Only just now. It’s hot off the press, but there’s more to come on that. There will be more to come on that, yes.
Sharon: You’ve written several other books. You wrote “A Life in Jewels.”
Beatriz: That is the book we did for Diana Scarisbrick, honoring her. I’ve written books since 1981, so it’s added up quite a bit. Sometime I can give you a list.
Sharon: How about the influence of women on 20th century jewelry? Has it changed jewelry? Has it made it more feminine?
Beatriz: It’s an extremely complex story, the role of women in design. You have to see it from the role of the woman in history. Just recently by coincidence, I’ve seen some material on women painters from the 16th and 17th centuries. In Bologna, for example, there were quite a few, and it’s only now coming to the fore. You also have to see high jewelers’ workshops in the field of jewelry. You don’t have a Renaissance piece of jewelry and know, “So-and-so made it.” That didn’t exist. It’s only in the 19th century that we start that. The hallmarking system in England goes back to the 13th century, but jewelry was considered smallware, so they didn’t consider putting a hallmark on it.
That changed later on, the but the name of the designer is something that we very often don’t know. The high jewelers of the 19th century, when you knew the name of who made it in Paris or New York, you never know the name of the designer. That is something that came in in the 20th century. You have some classical examples. With Cartier, it was Jeanne Toussaint. She designed some of the iconic pieces for Cartier and the Duchess of Windsor. She worked for I don’t know how many decades designing jewelry. She was a very important female designer. Then you’ve got Coco Chanel. She designed jewelry, mostly costume jewelry, but she also designed diamond jewelry. Not that she wanted to, but it was for the nation and probably the economy that she did it. Elsa Schiaparelli, with her fantastic surrealist jewelry, made that incredible neckpiece with beetles in plastic. If you had to date that as a jewelry store and you didn’t know the background, you’d easily say 1970s or 80s. It’s so amazing. In that period, you also had Suzanne Belperron with her really unique designs in jewelry.
Of course, the role of the woman changed after the First World War. You had millions of widows, and they had to work. The whole society was changing. After the Second World War, it became even more evident that women were working. I was very cheeky. I did a lecture. It was in the British Museum, and I was talking about the changing role of men and women buying jewelry. You can imagine the shock of some of them. I said, “Women go out and buy their own jewelry.” Before it was classical: the husband bought the jewelry for the wife. They were the earners, so they bought it. There were a few examples in the early 1900s, like the Duchess of Manchester, whose tiaras are in the Victoria and Albert Museum. She was one of these Dollar Princesses and quite a character. She liked smoking cigars and all. She went off with the family diamonds to Cartier and said, “Make me a tiara, and use up the garments.” You have Lady Mountbatten, who, after the birth of her daughter, Pamela, decided to go to Cartier and buy herself a nice bracelet that she could also wear in her hair in the 1920s.
There are a few examples. On the whole, it was always the husband buying the jewelry, but past that, you have women earning money and buying their own jewelry. The 60s sets off in that direction, and then it becomes jewelry that’s more affordable. Jewelry has never been so diverse as in the last decades. It’s never been so diverse in all its history. If you look at the Royal College of Art, I think you’ll find that, in general, there are a lot more women in training to become jewelers. You find so many names of women designers, now one doesn’t even talk about it. Whether it’s a man or a woman, it’s just become a norm.
Sharon: That’s interesting. If you stop to think about it, I don’t even know if there are that many male designers. I’m thinking about when I go to studios. You see more women than you do men.
Beatriz: It’s more and more, yes. There are more and more women, absolutely.
Sharon: What would you advise? What piece of advice would you give emerging jewelers or people who want to follow in your steps?
Beatriz: Remember that if you’re a jewelry historian, you’re an academic. Remember that. You have to really enjoy what you’re doing. In my case, I was very lucky. I’ve worked for so many different projects and so many different jewelers internationally. I’ve specialized in that, but it’s very difficult. Maybe, depending on the economic situation, people can volunteer in a museum to learn the trade. I think what you really have to know is do you want to work in a gallery, or do you want to work in an auction? Do you want to work in a museum? They don’t always mingle, so you have to learn where you want to go. It depends on what your interests are. If you have anybody, send them to me privately. I’m happy to talk it through.
Sharon: Thank you for being with us.
Beatriz: My pleasure.
Sharon: Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Beatriz Chadour-Sampson
Beatriz Chadour-Sampson studied art history, classical archaeology and Italian philology at the University of East Anglia, and at the University of Münster, Germany. Her doctoral thesis was on the Italian Renaissance goldsmith Antonio Gentili da Faenza. In 1985 she published the jewelry collection of the Museum für Angewandte Kunst, Cologne. Since 1988 she has worked freelance as a jewelry historian, curator of exhibitions and academic writer in Britain. Her numerous publications on jewelry, ranging from antiquity to the present day, include the The Gold Treasure from the Nuestra Señora de la Concepción (1991), and 2000 Finger Rings from the Alice and Louis Koch Collection, Switzerland (1994). She was the consultant curator in the re-designing of the William and Judith Bollinger Jewelry Gallery at the Victoria & Albert Museum (opened in 2008), London and was guest curator of the ‘Pearl’ exhibition (2013-14). She is an Associate Member of the Goldsmiths’ Company, London.
Today Beatriz Chadour-Sampson works as a freelance international and jewelry historian and scholarly author. Her extensive publications range from Antiquity to the present day.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Working in jewelry sometimes means being a detective. As a freelance jewelry historian and curator of the Alice and Louis Koch Ring Collection at the Swiss National Museum, Beatriz Chadour-Sampson draws on her wealth of knowledge to find jewelry clues—even when a piece has no hallmark or known designer. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she creates jewelry exhibits that engage viewers; how she found her way into the niche of shipwreck jewelry; and what it was like to catalogue 2,600 rings. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week. My guest today is Beatriz Chadour-Sampson. She’s been the curator of the Alice and Louis Koch Ring Collection at the Swiss National Museum for almost 35 years. She’s also a jewelry historian, art historian, educator, author and a whole bunch of other things I’m sure I’m missing out on, but she’ll fill us in today. Beatriz, welcome to the program.
Beatriz: Thank you very much for your invitation.
Sharon: Can you tell us about your jewelry journey? It’s been quite a journey.
Beatriz: Yes, the journey starts many years ago when I was a small child, in fact. I’m not a young chick at the moment, but I started off in my childhood with jewelry. I have to tell you a little bit of the family history. I was born in Cuba. My father was Russian and my mother was British. There’s a whole story of European history, including being five times refugees from Europe within Europe. That’s the aside, but my father learned how to cut and polish diamonds during the war in Cuba. After the war, he opened an import/export business for gemstones. It’s not unknown. You’ll probably find on the internet a picture of me, age three, sorting stones in his office in Cuba. We left Cuba during the Cuban Revolution. I was a Cuban subject as well as my father, but we left and never returned.
He opened a business called Chadour Charms, Inc. in New York. I always spent my holidays in New York. My mother was working in a company where I couldn’t tag along. I spent most of my free time as a child on 47th Street, which was called the gold and diamond alley at the time. My father designed charms. He had the gold cast and then set the stones himself. On 47th Street we had many friends we visited. One had a refinery for gold and silver; the other one sold supplies for goldsmiths, which was quite exciting. I encountered pearls, corals, diamonds and all sorts of jewelry experiences.
That was from three years to early childhood. It was about three years altogether in New York. Then my father was offered a job in Frankfurt am Main in Germany. He spoke fluent German. It was an American company building a pearl business in Frankfurt. That’s when I got even deeper into jewelry. Of course, there was also the trade. You can call it child labor today. In those days maybe it was seen slightly differently, but I did my homework with the secretaries. After that, I was stringing pearls, writing invoices and doing all kinds of things with pearls. When I was slightly older, I was allowed to make pearl pairs. Don’t think that a pearl is white. It’s nowhere near white. There are so many different colors and lusters that come in the pearl. So, I was setting pearls, hundreds of pearls, sorting them by a quarter of a millimeter, and then pairing them for earrings and matching the pearls in their luster so they could be worn as earrings.
From there we went on to jewelry, so stones and charms. Something interesting with the charms—I have a little anecdote. I was researching a book, “The Power of Love,” which came out in 2019, and I was looking in an auction catalogue for a famous love ring that Sir Laurence Olivier gave to the actress Vivian Leigh. Late at night, as I do very often, I was searching on the internet for the auction catalogue, and suddenly I see a charm bracelet. I couldn’t believe my eyes. One of the charms she had on the bracelet was designed by my father. I can prove that because I have the same charm on my charm bracelet. It was a ship in the sunset, as you see in the background. So, that was going down memory lane.
When I reached the age of 18, I said, “I don’t want to have anything to do with jewelry ever again.” I had enough. I grew up in the jewelry trade. It was all trade. Lo and behold, I then decided to study art history in Germany and England, but I did my thesis in Germany at the University of Münster. My subject at the end of this was Antonio Gentili, a Renaissance goldsmith. He came from Faenza. He worked for the Medici and the Farnese families, two very high families. He also did works for the Vatican. I remember in my early years after my dissertation, I used to see the Easter Mass on television in Germany. I was looking to see if the cross and candlesticks I worked on were on the show on the altar, which most years they were.
I then got into goldsmiths’ work. It’s through my jewelry background and my thesis on Renaissance goldsmiths’ work that I was awarded a scholarship to write the catalogue of 900 pieces of jewelry for what is now called the Museum for Applied Arts, the Museum für Angewandte Kunst. The collection covers 5,000 years of jewelry history. I was really plunged into the deep history of jewelry. There weren’t so many books at the time. They were more archaeology books. This explosion of jewelry books is something that came after I had finished the catalogue. There was a lot of research that was quite complex, but I enjoyed it. It was wonderful to gain that experience and knowledge of a wide part of jewelry history. That was in 1981. I finished the catalogue. It was published. That was also my first experience doing an exhibition because when the catalogue was launched, we had an exhibition with the jewelry. More recently I’ve been with the Cologne Museum since 1981. It was the first time. They’re now doing a new display of the jewelry. They’re still planning it. I think it’s due to come out next year, so there will be a new display of the jewelry I catalogued.
Then I was offered a job in Hanau, Germany. Many will not realize that Hanau has a history in jewelry that goes back to the 17th century. Up to the First World War, it was a center for producing hand-manufactured jewelry. Today, they have an academy where you can learn how to make jewelry. That goes back to 1772. So, it’s a city of great tradition of jewelry. I was Managing Director of the Gesellschaft für Goldschmiedekunst. I was organizing exhibitions and competitions and catalogues, and it was all contemporary jewelry. When I was working in Cologne, that was my first encounter with contemporary jewelry. I met people who I became great friends with. I also took part in the many events of the Forum für Schmuck und Design, which still exists. So, those were my early experiences with contemporary jewelry, but when I got to Hanau, I was plunged right into it. I had all kinds of jobs to do, as I said, exhibitions, catalogues and competitions.
I stayed there for about three and a half years. In 1988, I was asked if I would catalogue the Alice and Louis Koch Collection. Louis Koch was a very famous jeweler in Frankfurt au Main, Germany, and he and his wife collected rings, among many other collections. It was a family of collections. By 1904, they had about 1,700 rings. There are over 2,600 rings now. I was asked to catalogue the 1,700 rings, which took me quite a long time, but I was doing all kinds of other projects in between. The collector allowed me to do that, which was great fun. In 1994, the historical collection was catalogued fully. It’s like an encyclopedia of rings from ancient Egypt on. It covers 4,000 years of jewelry history.
In about 1993, just before we finished the catalogue—and there are a few contemporary rings in the 1994 publication. I believe this collection from Louis Koch in 1904 went to a second and a third generation after he died in 1930. The fourth generation, we discussed it, and we came to the conclusion that they should make it their own and continue where their great-grandfather had finished. Now, their great-grandfather was, as I said, a very famous family jeweler in Frankfurt. The shop was called the Cartier of Germany, so you can imagine royalty wearing it and the national business. He was a quite a jeweler. They also expanded to Baden-Baden. He was a very fashionable jeweler, and he was a contemporary of René Lalique. He didn’t buy rings from any other contemporaries, but he bought a ring by René Lalique, so he must have realized there was something very contemporary about Lalique. He was the modernizer of French jewelry at the time, using glass and gold that was unthinkable.
So, we went on this venture from 1993 until the publication in 2019. We amassed a collection of 610 rings from the 20th and 21st century, which are all catalogued. Then the collection went into the Swiss National Museum. There was a small exhibition, but since 2019, there’s a permanent display of 1,700 rings. May I add that the 610 contemporary rings are all on display, so we reduced repetitions within the historical part of the collection. Interestingly, this room’s showcase is also round like a ring. With 1,700 rings, it’s not an easy task because you have to go in a circle. We had big, brown panels of paper and played around with the rings. It starts with themes and then goes on chronologically to the contemporary. You couldn’t make a mistake because once you got to ring 200, you couldn’t go back to number 50. You can imagine going up to 1,700. I can say there are two rings that are not in the right place, but that’s not too bad with 1,700 rings.
Sharon: Did you have to photograph them?
Beatriz: I’m very lucky to finish up on the Koch Collection. I’m now consultant curator to the Swiss National Museum in Zurich. I was responsible for the display there together with my colleagues in the museum. That was quite an experience. It’s wonderful after 35 years to still be able to do this. I think they were a bit concerned about my babies and that I would want to run away from it, but that isn’t the case. I really enjoy working with them. It’s a pleasure. It’s so rewarding, after 35 years, to see the collection on display, which was always in private hands from the 1900s onward.
I’ve just written six blogs for the Swiss National Museum. One is on the Napoleonic Wars, and the stories are all told by the rings. The next one coming out in November is on Josiah Wedgwood and his sculptor, John Flaxman. Rings tell lots of stories.
Sharon: Are the blogs in English?
Beatriz: Everything in the Swiss National Museum is English, German, French and Italian. So, you take your pick which one you want.
Sharon: Did you have to photograph everything? When you say you catalogued them, I think of a catalogue being a photograph and description.
Beatriz: Oh, no. The photographs of the historical collection were all done by a photographer. It’s very difficult because we had to choose one background for all. That was complex. It’s pre-1994, so it’s sort of an old, pale, gray blue. One color fits all because it was the encyclopedic nature of the books.
With the 2019 book, I was working with the photographer in Zurich. I spent many weeks and months in Zurich sitting next to the photographer and choosing which angle because contemporary rings don’t just have a hoop and a bezel. It’s a piece of sculpture, so you have to know exactly which angle to take the photograph to show as much as you can of the ring. I was actually working together with the photographer. You learn a lot with such jobs.
Sharon: Wow! Today there are all kinds of degrees you can get with exhibitions. Was it something you learned hands on or learned by doing?
Beatriz: I was working at the practice in my second home of the Victoria and Albert Museum, because I was consultant curator to the William and Judith Bollinger Jewelry Gallery. I worked there for four and a half years on the displays. When you see the displays in the gallery, the concept was from me. I had little black and white photographs of the old gallery, nothing in color. It didn’t matter that I knew the pieces by heart and each piece of jewelry was about the size of a small fingernail, and I got a damp hand from cutting out 4,000 images of 4,000 pieces of jewelry, very high-tech, of course. I had my pieces of paper, and I started thinking that every board has to tell a story. For me with an exhibition, the exhibit has to tell the story, and the text below on the captions really helps you understand it. Visually, I think it’s very important that the pieces also talk. So, yes, I started before the architect was allocated and we worked together with 4,000 pieces. My colleague, Richard H. Cumber, worked on the watches, but otherwise all the jewelry is designed on black and white photographs on white sheets of paper with double-sided tape.
Sharon: Do you have thoughts about why you got so immersed in jewelry? You said you didn’t want anything to do with jewelry, but here you are immersed in it. What were your thoughts?
Beatriz: You mean deep diving in it?
Sharon: Yes.
Beatriz: I grew up in the jewelry trade and experienced the Cuban Revolution and hardships, being refugees in New York and so on and then moving again to another country. It was complex. As a child, it wasn’t quite easy. It didn’t do me any harm. I’ve survived, but it was a really hard trade. What I was doing later, and still do now, is historical jewelry. It’s a very different thing. I think I’ve gotten my love of jewelry back, yes, but I’m very keen on the wide picture of jewelry covering thousands of years.
In fact, I’ve been doing courses for the Victoria and Albert Museum since 2008. When I do the “Bedazzled” one, which is a history of jewelry, I start with 150,000 B.C. I jump off it pretty quickly, but for me, it’s so important for people to go back to that time to understand what jewelry was about. To me, it was certainly more amuletic rather than status. It was status as well probably. We can’t follow that, but certainly I think amuletic to protect from the dangers. They lived in a very natural world, so the dangers were much worse than we could imagine. I think it’s fascinating to see what was in other periods of jewelry history. It makes it much more exciting to understand what’s happening now.
Sharon: When you came to contemporary jewelry—it seems that you’re pretty immersed in that also—what stood out to you? What made a piece different or jump out at you? There seems to be so much copycatting in many ways.
Beatriz: Definitely, a lot of copycatting. I’ve worked on a collection of 450 pieces of, and I can tell you that’s one of the most copied ones. On Instagram, I have to be careful that I don’t get nasty remarks because I do point out, “Yes, we’ve seen that before. He was ahead of his time, but his style is still modern today.” When we were putting the Koch Collection together with the 610 rings, 20 from the 21st century, the individual l idea was very important for me. It has to be innovative; the idea has to be new; it has to be interesting. For the materials, it should be an experiment with new materials; different materials; materials you wouldn’t use for jewelry. We talk about sustainable jewelry. Pre-1994 we have two rings in the collection made of washing-up bottles. We were way ahead of the times. Of course, Peter Chang used recycled materials, and we commissioned a ring from him. We did commission people that never made rings before just to put them to the test. It was very interesting.
Sharon: I didn’t know that Peter Chang was recycled.
Beatriz: The materials are all recycled materials, yes. That is the amazing part, the recycled materials. These two crazy rings we bought from a German jeweler, it’s just washing-up bottles. If you’re creative and imaginative, you make something interesting.
We have many important names who made rings. We have some wonderful rings from Wendy Ramshaw and so on. We have a lot of big names, but that was not the point. We have a lot of ones that just graduated or were young or completely unknown. It’s more the idea and what they made. Of course, I was approached many times regarding rings and I had to decline, saying, “Sorry, we already have something like that.” I couldn’t say it was not exciting. The idea was already there, so it makes it difficult. Unless it was interpreted differently, yes, that’s fine.
So, I think we got a lot of crazy pieces. The collector always teased me. He said, “Can you wear the ring?” I said, “Of course, could you wear the ring? What do you think?” I always choose rings for wearing. Of course, I have to admit there are a few that are not wearable. I’ll admit to that, but I think with a collection like the Koch Collection, you’re allowed to do that. There are few you really can’t wear, or you can wear them with great difficulty.
Sharon: Yes, I think about that. I always think about how it would be to type with a ring like that, or how it would be to work at a keyboard, something like that.
Beatriz: I always say you don’t wear the big, high jewelry pieces when you go shopping or washing up.
Sharon: That’s true.
Beatriz: I won’t say any company names, but the high jewelers of New York, Paris, wherever, they make those pieces. Those are rings. If they look great, they’re wearable, but you wouldn’t wear them every day while you’re washing up or shopping or doing other tasks around the house.
Sharon: That’s true. That’s probably why people don’t buy them as much anymore. They don’t have places to go, Covid aside.
Beatriz: I think with Covid, the interesting thing is that we have rings that are sculptures. If you’re doing a collection and somebody makes a ring sculpture, I think it’s valid to be in the Koch Collection. We do have a few ring sculptures, including Marjorie Schick. But it’s interesting that you mentioned Covid and when the pandemic was on. I don’t want to go into the pandemic, but we have a much-increased Zoom culture. It did exist before the pandemic, people trying to reduce travelling and climate change and so on. It did come before the pandemic, but it is definitely an increased media. You can’t really wear a ring and say, “Well, here’s my ring.” You have to wear something that’s in the Zoom zone. That’s earrings and brooches. Fortunately, I’m somebody who likes earrings and brooches. I always have on earrings and brooches.
Sharon: What you have on is very Zoom culture. It shows up well.
Beatriz: The color shows up, yes. The earrings, they’re made of silver and made by Eve Balashova, who works in Glasgow. Zoom is not a problem with this jewelry because, as I said, I love the earrings and certainly the brooch that goes with it. In fact, when I bought the earrings I asked, “Can you make a brooch I can wear with it?”
Sharon: Wow! When you go out, do you see rings that make you say, “That should be in the collection”? Can you add new ones?
Beatriz: Since the display in 2019, there are only a few additions. It sort of finished with the publication and the display, but there have been the odd new rings. I write a lot about that. We have had a few, and I’m hoping that next year they will be on display. Maybe half a dozen rings; not many. We might have another exciting one, but we have to wait. Until the collector has actually gotten his hands on it, I don’t want to jinx things.
Sharon: But you identify them and then they say yea or nay.
Beatriz: Yes. They have bought things on their own as well, but we’ve done this together, yes. I’ve identified and advised. For me, it was wonderful. First of all, they don’t know the collector. It’s always the Koch Collection, but the family’s name is different, so it was always very modest, without great names. I was the one who negotiated everything, and it always gave me great pleasure when I could stand up and say, “We’ve chosen a ring for the collection.” You find this great joy on the other end, especially for those young or unknown ones. You could imagine what it meant for them. It’s always great joy.
I love working with contemporary artist jewelers. I worked for 13 years as a visiting tutor under David Watkins. I always said I learned more from them than they learned from me, but I helped them with their Ph.Ds. I really enjoyed working with them, and it continued with being able to buy or acquire what they made for the collection.
Sharon: You do a lot of teaching. You’re teaching other classes in January at the V&A.
Beatriz: Yeah.
Sharon: It started online.
Beatriz: Yes. In 2021, I did an online course, “Bedazzled.” Next year, in January and February, it’s called “Jewels of Love, Romance and Eternity,” which is a topic I’ve worked on because I published the book “Proud Love.” We have a few other speakers who can bring another slant into it. Again, I start with antiquity, because you can’t talk about love jewels without actually talking about Roman jewelry. Many people don’t realize that the engagement ring or the proposal ring or marriage ring started with the ancient Romans.
Sharon: I didn’t know that.
Beatriz: Diamonds in engagement rings started in the 15th century. It might be a little bit earlier, but that’s more or less the dateline. So, there are lots of interesting things to talk about.
As I said, I’ve been doing courses since 2008 at regular intervals. Also at the Victoria and Albert Museum, I was co-curator of the pearls exhibition. I did a lot of courses on pearls as well, and that is a fascinating topic. It was wonderful to work on that exhibition. It was together with the Qatar Museum’s authority, but I was asked by the Victoria and Albert Museum to create an exhibition for the British public, which was very different to what they had in mind, of course.
Sharon: There are so many new kinds of pearls, or at least kinds that weren’t popular before. Tahitians and yellow pearls, that sort of thing.
Beatriz: Yes, all these extra pearls are the cultured pearls. It’s a history of the natural pearl. Qatar was a center where they were diving for pearls, so we did all the diving history, how merchants worked in that area in Bali and Qatar. The cultured pearl is, of course, Mikimoto. There are theories that the Chinese started the cultured pearls, but the one who really got the cultured pearls going was Mikimoto. He certainly did the science with it. He worked together with scientists and had the vision. Natural pearls were very, very expensive, and his philosophy was that every woman should wear a pearl necklace or be able to afford a pearl necklace. I think his task is fulfilled.
It’s interesting because the natural pearl doesn’t have quite the luster of the cultured pearl. By the 20s, you have the cultured pearls coming in, and then by the 50s—when I did the exhibition, we had so many stories being told. Of course, some ladies from the Middle East are probably kicking themselves because they sold the family natural pearls because they didn’t have the luster, and they bought the nice cultured pearls that are more flashy. Of course, now the value of natural pearls is unthinkable.
Sharon: Was there a catalogue?
Beatriz: With cultured pearls, you have the golden pearls and the Tahitian pearls and so on, but the color of the pearls depends on the shell they grow in, unless you have some that have been tampered with and are colored. But there are Tahitian pearls, golden pearls and all these different shades. Melo pearls have an orangey color. The color of the pearl is dependent on the shell it grows in. The rarest pearl is the pink pearl that comes from the Caribbean. That’s the conch pearl; that’s hugely expensive. You asked about the catalogue.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Linda Orlick
Linda Orlick is a longtime public relations expert in the jewelry industry as well as an accomplished business executive with experience branding high-end products, people and companies. She is co-founder of the influential Women’s Jewelry Association, a volunteer organization founded in 1984 that began with 10 women in an apartment in Manhattan and blossomed to become a formidable entity and powerful voice for women in the jewelry industry worldwide. Linda served as its President for a four- year term.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on ThejewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Linda Orlick entered the jewelry industry when gold was $35 an ounce and jewelry designers were unknowns who worked behind the scenes. Due in no small part to Linda’s passion for the industry and her work to brand and promote emerging designers, retailers and shows, jewelry is now a respected part of the American fashion scene. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history of the Women’s Jewelry Association; why it’s so hard for people to leave the jewelry industry once they enter it; and how she helped facilitate the design of the 4.25 carat canary yellow diamond ring Hilary Clinton wore to the 1993 inauguration. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. My guest is Linda Orlick. Linda has spent her whole career in jewelry. She has been very successful as a retailer and a consultant to retailers. She’s one of the cofounders of the Women’s Jewelry Association, and she helped build it into a powerhouse. Welcome back.
Linda: I think I was also instrumental in launching the American Jewelry Design Council. That was founded by Jose Hess and Jean Francois Albert, with a lot of wonderful designers. As a matter of fact, I’ll tell you a story. We used to meet once a year and have a retreat. I must include Michael Van Danzer. as one of the outstanding designers. One year, we had an appointment to meet at De Beers in London to talk about jewelry design and diamonds. There were 30 of us. I have to mention Susan Helmich, Susan Fabric as well. They were also women that were very much a part of the American Jewelry Design Council. Those were the women that stood out.
That morning, one of my good friends called me and said, “You can’t go to London,” and I said, “Why?” They said, “Princess Diana just died.” Well, too late, we were all on our way to London. We arrived in London and were walking to Kensington Palace, not knowing if we were going to have our meeting De Beers. Everything was up in the air. It was the most sorrowful experience that we all shared together. My group did meet at De Beers. It was a very short meeting. Chairs were abundant, but there was just no stopping them. Although we had time enough to meet, there was also the trip home at Heathrow Airport, when the funeral procession was going on. Every person in that airport was hysterically crying and cried all the way home. It was such a personal tragedy for so many of us, but we carried on as best we could.
Another retreat we went to was in Jackson Hole, Wyoming. We went there in September, when the aspen trees were golden in their bloom. These retreats really gave the designers a chance to talk about how they were going to continue their designs and how they were going to keep building, how they were going to invite new designers to come in, and how they were going to expand the world of jewelry design. One of the things they did was pick a theme, whether it be a wheel or a teardrop, and every designer that was part of the American Jewelry Design Council would a create piece with this theme. Then one of us had the idea to display them in different museum settings as an exhibit. It was also at the JA Show and eventually the JCK Show.
Now, I had been on the board of Kent State University School of Design for 18 years. When I first joined the board, I fell in love with the school, and Henry and I were invited to be guest speakers. It was then called the Shannon Rogers and Jerry Silverman School of Design. We were invited to their fashionomics course that happened every Friday. So, we would get on a plane from New York to Cleveland, which is an hour flight, and spend the day at the school speaking to the students, answering questions, having a lovely dinner, and then getting on a flight that night and going back to New York. I continued that for 18 years. Every Friday in the fall semester, I would bring different designers or an editor from Vogue Magazine or another magazine and then come back the same day. I loved it.
One day, the amazing president—her name was Elizabeth Rhodes—said to me, “We’d like to rebrand the school. Jerry Silverman is such a big name. How can we do that?” I said, “I have an idea. Come to my office in New York, and let’s have a branding session. Let’s talk about a strategy to rename the school, since it’s more about design.” My dear colleague Michael Carter sat with the deans and the professors. Every one of the teaching professionals of Kent State was in a New York conference room, and we renamed the Kent State School of Design. It was that simple, and it’s been that way ever since.
For many years after that, I continued to travel to the school, bringing other guest speakers to their fashionomics course. It was very rewarding. I also helped them develop a New York program, where students worked in a studio in New York in the garment district. They housed students, and they had students come to FIT or be assigned to different designers, like Donna Karan or Diane von Furstenberg, to work with them so they could increase their skills as designers. That was an exceptional time to see the emergence of this wonderful talent come to life.
Sharon: Wow! It sounds like you have quite a history. What is your connection to jewelry today? Do you have a connection?
Linda: I will always have a connection. When I went to school and studied to be a medical technician, I worked for an amazing doctor on Park Avenue and 78th Street until I was almost nine months pregnant. I had the privilege of having patients like Neil Simon, Mel Brooks, Anne Bancroft. I once gave flu shots to all the cast of a Broadway show. I never in a million years thought I would be in the jewelry industry.
My uncle, my mom’s brother, had a company called Raquel and Landy. He was one of the first jewelry manufacturing companies to make high jewelry in platinum and diamonds. He said to me, “Your great uncle was the founder of the first jewelry boutique on the Bowery of New York. He used to make jewelry for the Duchess of Windsor.” I said, “Hm. Jewelry, my great uncle, my uncle, my cousins.” It was meant to be for me.
Most people who go into the jewelry industry, especially in the beginning, if you ask them, “Did you study to be in the industry?” they would say, “It just happened. I happened to fall into it.” Once you fall into it, you love it. I can call anybody I met back in the 70s as if I was with them yesterday. The jewelry industry has a special bond. Once they love you, once you give them your integrity and your honesty, you have friends for life. I worked with the well-known Mark Hanna, who is now with Warren Buffet’s company. In the very beginning, he and I worked for a company and developed jewelry. We have maintained our friendship throughout the years. There isn’t a person I’ve met that I’m not still in touch with.
When I moved to Florida in August of 2019, purely by accident, we were about to have a hurricane, which never happened. My best friend said to me, “Come on, we’re going to the mall. I’m going to show you what it’s all about.” This is the first time I ever lived outside of New York City. We walked into the mall and into Neiman Marcus. Keep in mind that Henry Dunay was the most important jewelry designer at Neiman Marcus for probably close to 50 years, and along with him I used to make personal appearances. I used to help them with many of their promotional campaigns. I helped them with their events. In fact, there were times when they hired me to create in-store promotions for them or tie-ins with other designers. We used to have in-store events and try to bring the store together, which I was very involved with. I can’t remember what I was thinking about.
Sharon: Neiman Marcus.
Linda: We walked into Neiman’s, and I walked straight into the fine jewelry department. Neal Acartio, who was one of the managers in another store was there, and he looked at me and said, “What are you doing here?” I said, “Well, I just moved to Florida. There’s no hurricane, so my girlfriend took me shopping.” He said, “You know, there’s a position open as a sales associate.” I said, “But I never did retail,” and he said, “It doesn’t matter. They’re interviewing tomorrow.”
I got the job. I was working the next week just like that. I had so much fun. It wasn’t easy being on your feet for eight hours, but I met childhood friends. I immediately made strong relationships with beautiful clients that had me shopping for them. I absolutely loved it, and I probably would still be there, but on March 17, 2020, everything closed down, the store, the mall, the country. The pandemic was here. Everything closed. There was no place to go. I stayed in the house for 18 months. Neiman’s started to hire very slowly afterwards, but it took a very long time.
I can happily say I’m still very involved in the industry. I most recently volunteered to work with my friends and colleagues at the Women’s Jewelry Association, which is coming up on our 40th anniversary, which I can’t believe. The Women’s Jewelry Association is going to be 40 years old next year, so I’m going to be actively involved and will attend the 40th anniversary of the Women’s Jewelry Association. Through my Facebook connections, through my social media connections, I would say I am as involved in the industry as I could be. Living here in Florida, I have a deep love for it, a deep respect for the way it’s grown. I watched these designers, who tried to lead with all the different and beautiful works they put out, getting better and better each year.
To any young designer coming in, do it. Embrace it with both hands. One of the schools that stands out is FIT. Their jewelry department has expanded dramatically. I used to guest lecture. We started the Women in the Know Conferences at FIT through the Women’s Jewelry Association. That’s something that happens every year. The other design schools out there are very good, like Parsons. USC has a very important program. Kent State, when we went back, expanded their jewelry department. It was very impressive. It’s exciting to have seen it from the 1970s. It’s now close to 2023.
I have another story I’d love to tell you about. My dear colleague at the Diamond Information Council called me one day and said, “Linda, Elizabeth Taylor needs a mask to wear for an event in honor of AIDS, to raise funds for AIDS research.” I said, “O.K., let me think about this for a second.” I went to Henry and said, “Henry, Elizabeth Taylor needs a mask.” When you say that to somebody with a wealth of designer possibilities like Henry Dunay, you can’t image what’s coming next. You’ll see by the picture of Elizabeth holding the mask that he didn’t just create a little pin and mask. It was a life-size mask with 936 diamonds supplied by dear friends at William Goldberg Diamonds and platinum from the Platinum Guild. The Gold Council donated the gold.
This extraordinary mask, which was valued at over $1 million, was supposed to be carried by Elizabeth the day of the event. She wanted to auction it off at Christie’s. The night before, she got the flu, so she couldn’t attend the event. A model was the one who wound up carrying it, but Elizabeth’s connection with the mask was strong. We had beautiful photography that shows her with the mask. Henry designed mini mask pins for her and several of the guests, like Anna Wintour, so they would always have a keepsake from that evening. The mask went all over the world. It went to Wichita, Kansas, to raise funds for pediatric AIDS. In about two hours, it raised over $88,000 for AIDS. It was absolutely breathtaking, as you will see in the pictures.
Sadly, the mask was pulled apart because the diamonds had to given back. Though Henry’s intention was to replace it with other diamonds, I don’t think it ever happened. Everybody used to say, “Oh, Elizabeth Taylor, she’s such a diva. You’re going to have such a hard time working with her.” I couldn’t tell you how absolutely wonderful and genuine she was. The few times we met her, when we presented the mask to her and at another event, where Henry designed a special necklace for her, she was as loving and generous and warm and friendly as anyone could imagine. Her dedication to raising awareness for AIDS was like none other. I will never forget those moments I had with her. It was very exciting.
Sharon: It must have been. Linda, thank you for sharing all the history and different perspectives you have. You’ve seen a lot, and you’ll see a lot more, I’m sure. Thank you so much for being here today.
Linda: Thank you so much. It’s been a wonderful journey to share with you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Linda Orlick
Linda Orlick is a longtime public relations expert in the jewelry industry as well as an accomplished business executive with experience branding high-end products, people and companies. She is co-founder of the influential Women’s Jewelry Association, a volunteer organization founded in 1984 that began with 10 women in an apartment in Manhattan and blossomed to become a formidable entity and powerful voice for women in the jewelry industry worldwide. Linda served as its President for a four- year term.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on ThejewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Linda Orlick entered the jewelry industry when gold was $35 an ounce and jewelry designers were unknowns who worked behind the scenes. Due in no small part to Linda’s passion for the industry and her work to brand and promote emerging designers, retailers and shows, jewelry is now a respected part of the American fashion scene. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history of the Women’s Jewelry Association; why it’s so hard for people to leave the jewelry industry once they enter it; and how she helped facilitate the design of the 4.25 carat canary yellow diamond ring Hilary Clinton wore to the 1993 inauguration. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
My guest is Linda Orlick. Linda has spent her whole career in jewelry. She has been very successful as a retailer and a consultant to retailers. She’s one of the cofounders of the Women’s Jewelry Association, and she helped build it into a powerhouse. I’m sure many of you are members of the Women’s Jewelry Association. Today, we will learn a lot more about her jewelry journey. There’s a lot to say. Linda, welcome to the program.
Linda: It’s so good to be here. Thank you, Sharon.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey.
Linda: Well, I hope we have a lot of time. In 1974, when gold was $35 an ounce—
Sharon: Wow!
Linda: I guess, wow. My family and a few friends spent the summer in the Catskills. At that time, there were three ladies who had a company and were selling a collection of gold jewelry to other women like a pyramid scheme. It was a combination of chains and necklaces and earrings. I said to a friend of mine, “We should do this.” So, we went ahead and invested $400 each, and we got our first collection.
We thought we would be brave enough—we lived in Riverdale in the Bronx—to take a trip into the city and go into office buildings in the garment center, introduce ourselves to the receptionist, go into the bathroom and set up wares. There you have it: we were selling our jewelry. Women used to come in and give us hundreds of dollars in deposits, and we would come back and deliver pieces to them. The two of us looked at each other and said, “I think this is fun. This is good. Better than doing it out of our home,” because we both had small children. That’s how it all started. Again, gold was $35 an ounce. Can you imagine that was 48 years ago?
My next introduction was to a silver designer by the name of Minas. He was from Greece, and he had a beautiful collection of 18-carat pieces. In fact, I’m wearing two of his pieces. I fell in love with his collection. I had never sold to a retailer before. I didn’t know how to go about it. I walked into Bloomingdale’s one day with my little jewelry roll, and I said, “Knock, knock; I’m Linda and I’d like to introduce myself.” The buyer—her name was Susan; I can’t remember her last name—said, “Do you have an appointment?” I said, “Oh, did I need one?” Before I knew it, I was showing her the collection. She fell in love with it also, and she bought a nice selection of it. Now, mind you, a ring like this was $22. Again, it was 18-karat gold and silver. Everything was very affordable, so they sold out immediately. I kept the money from the order, and then I started to work full time for Minas, and I kept the relationship with Bloomingdale’s going.
Along the way, gold went from $35 an ounce to $800 an ounce. It was at the same time that Minas decided he was going to turn his business into all 18-karat gold. He felt that staying in the United States, it would be difficult for him to continue to sell his collection in all gold, so he decided to go back to his homeland in Greece and continue with his collection. By chance, I was at the Sheraton Center when the JA had their shows there, and I got a part-time position with Marsha Breslow, who was a wonderful colorist. She used to do lapis and 18-karat bead jewelry for Cartier and had her special collection for them. She used to take semi-precious beads and make the most extraordinary necklaces and earrings.
It caught the attention of Vera Wang, who was then an assistant at Vogue Magazine. Vera kept coming up to the office and working with us on different collections. Vera was working on a collection for Calvin Klein for one of his original runway shows. She asked Marsha to create a collection that would go on his runway. Excitingly enough, it also made the cover two seasons in a row of Fashion Times Magazine. For a jewelry designer to be on the cover of Fashions Times was unheard of.
Along the way, I called Women’s Wear Daily, who never featured fine jewelry. I believe it was Agnes Carmack, who was then an assistant, who answered, and I said, “I’ve got a gorgeous collection of earrings,” and she said, “O.K., bring it over.” We went up on the rooftop. I had a friend who was a model. This wonderful photographer they had, Tony Palmieri, photographed about six different earrings on her, and they landed on the front page of Women’s Wear Daily. It was the first ever.
I started to think to myself, “If Seventh Avenue can promote by name, why shouldn’t the jewelry industry?” I went back to Bloomingdale’s and told them about the Marsha Breslow collection. After being in Vogue Magazine and with Vera Wang putting it on Calvin Klein, people began to really take notice of the designers and names. We were in Bloomingdale’s, which was a Federated Store. The parent company was associated with Associated Merchandising Corporation. I became friendly with the CEO of AMC, Lee Abraham, and he called me one day and said, “Linda, I want something different for Bloomingdale’s that no other store has.” I said, “O.K., give me a few days to think about it.” I called him back and said, “Lee, I want to have the first design boutique ever in a department store, and I want it to be in Bloomingdale’s, in the 59th Street store.” He said, “You got it. The buyer Marty Newman, whom everybody loves so dearly, and the DM will be visiting you in the next week.”
Sharon: The DM is what? I’m sorry.
Linda: The department manager. “It’s our secret, but they are going to listen to your story about a designer boutique and it’s going to happen.” Sure enough, a week later, I get a phone call from Marty Newman, who went on to be one of my dearest friends. He said, “I’m not sure what I have here, but I want you to create a collection. We can give you six feet of showcase space.” If you walk into Bloomingdale’s and see the Louis Vuitton store to the right, there’s always that big flower. Exactly where that beautiful flower is was the showcase that he wanted us to work with.
So, we put in a collection. We were responsible for designing the showcase and hiring our own salespeople. They gave us a sales goal. We quadrupled that. Lee and the buyer were so impressed, he said to me, “Now you can go to the rest of the Federated stores,” which included Woodward & Lothrop. I created the first designer boutique. What can I say? The rest is history. Marsha Breslow went into these stores and the word “jewelry designer” came along with it.
It was a slow process because jewelry designers were still not recognized. It was a real uphill battle. In 1981, I was invited by the Manufacturing Jewelry and Silversmiths of America, MJSA, and I eventually met the man who became my former husband, Henry Dunay. I was invited to do direct mail advertising and public relations for the first group of American jewelry designers that were invited to the Baselworld Fair. Basel didn’t want any Americans to come to it. They fought and said, “Americans, what do they know about jewelry design? They design in 14-karat gold. They have no sense of design.” So, they stuck us in a little corner behind the cafeteria where nobody could see them. We did a mailing to hundreds and hundreds of retailers across the world. Little by little, when you have a designer like Henry Dunay or Jose Hess, names who were emerging designers, and they’re not being sold by weight, which is what they did early on. You sold your jewelry by weight. People started to recognize it. They became a real force in Basel. They were invited back every year, and every year the collections grew more and more incredible.
The American jewelry designers outdid all the other countries as far as designing metals and working in 18-karat and precious and semiprecious stones. I went to the Basel Fair for 21 years and became very friendly with the then-head of the fair. Eventually, the Basel Fair hired me to promote the fair to American retailers to try and get more American retailers to come to Basel. That was when there were so many competitions in New York. There was the emergence of JCK, the JA show, which launched the Couture Show, the JCK Show, which launched Luxury. They converged on Las Vegas and took over the ability for retailers to come to one place and see extraordinary designs. Then, of course, you had the European retailers wanting to come, too. It gave Basel a real run for its money. I had done public relations for the JA Show for many years, and I helped create a lot of exciting highlights for the Couture Show. I had a very close relationship with Robb Report magazine.
Sharon: Which magazine?
Linda: Robb Report magazine.
Sharon: Robb Report, O.K., yes.
Linda: Robb Report is very high-end luxury jewelry. I created a Robb Report event at the Couture Show after the major entertainment, which was always sponsored by Vogue Magazine. It had over-the-top musicians performing, and it was a luxury fair the couture jewelers could go to with over-the-top desserts and interesting things. That grew to be very big and kept the tour very special until Couture and JA decided to make its move to Vegas.
When that program was over, I became the public relations and marketing person for the JCK Show. I was also watching the Luxury Show within the JCK Show. We came up with a lot of programs and conferences that would create wider visibility for the show. In fact, because of my 21 years in Basel and my relationships not just with jewelry designers, but with the watch companies, I was able to create the first watch luxury show. I introduced the concept to my colleagues at JCK and I brought my dear friend, Steven Kaiser, on board to oversee the show. The Luxury by JCK Watch Show is still in existence today and is the first and only luxury watch show in the U.S. So, that was very exciting.
The rest, as they say, is history. I watched the industry go from $35 an ounce and deciding how much I should pay for this based on a scale, to a showcase with the most beautiful designs ever created in the world. I have to give a lot of credit to my former husband, Henry Dunay, because in my opinion he was—and still is—one of the greatest jewelry designers in the industry. He set the tone for finishes on jewelry with his love for pearls, his love for precious and semiprecious stones, his ability to search out stones and create a design around it.
For instance, my dear friend who worked at the Diamond Information Center, called me one day and said, “I have a 4.25 canary yellow diamond that was found in a mine in Arkansas by a local jeweler. If Henry could create a ring for Hillary Clinton to wear at the inauguration, she will wear it.” Henry was leaving for Europe the next day, and I said, “You’re not going. To design a ring for Hillary Clinton and have her wear it at the inauguration, that comes first. Please put off the jewelry trip for another few days.” Sure enough, he created the most beautiful cinnabar ring. It was from the argosy of Arkansas. You saw pieces of platinum and different textures in the 18-karat gold that depicted the topography of Arkansas, with the 4.25 diamond set inside. It was a cushion shape. It was never cut. It came out of the ground just the way you see it in the ring. It was extraordinary.
Sadly, the jeweler wanted the diamond back rather than having the whole ring donated to the Smithsonian as it should have been, so Henry had to take the ring apart. He said, “One day, I’ll have a stone made that looks exactly like it and I’ll reset it.” I don’t think that ever happened, but people got to see it. It went on view in the Museum of Natural History. It became part of one of the exhibits at the Museum of Natural History. It was an extraordinary ring. I do have pictures of it to share with everybody.
Sharon: We’ll have those on the website.
Linda: It’s an exciting journey. Back in the early 80s, I made lots of good women friends in the industry. I think it was in 1982. There was a blustery, snowy night, and we were all at the JA show. It was at the Hilton in the Sheraton Center. We were invited by two representatives from New England to a meeting to tell us about the women’s group they put together, New England Women in Jewelry. We thought it had a lot of merit, and my friends and colleagues and I kept going back and forth and back and forth. Do we need this organization? What do you think?
We finally decided we would call our friend, Ronny Lavin, and 10 women we were close with to talk about it. There was Nancy Pier Sindt, who was an editor with National Jeweler; a designer, Joan Benjamin; Jo Ann Paganetti, who was a professor at FIT; Marian Ruby, who was the jewelry buyer at Finley at the time. I hope I’m not leaving anybody’s name out. We said, “O.K., I think we should do this. Let’s become mentors. Let’s create a scholarship program. Let’s create a platform for women to share their ideas and grow their businesses.” We voted on the name Women’s Jewelry Association.
Nothing could have prepared us for what was coming next. I sent you our original newsletter. We came on like such a force that we expanded our bylaws to include the rest of the country. The New England group became our first general chapter, and the rest is history. Most importantly, of course, there was somebody we all loved and respected, Gerry Friedman, who was the editor in chief of National Jeweler Magazine, and we were going to ask Gerry to be our first president. She was like, “Of course.”
We had several meetings where we put together a group of programs of other women to talk about what’s going on in the industry, what suppliers and vendors to use, the world of design and all different topics. Gerry always had a group to her home for dinner, and one day we were talking about what’s going to make us stand out. There are lots of men’s groups or enough men’s groups, and they had dinners. All of a sudden, it came to me: We had to create the first awards in the jewelry industry for women, by women. We all agreed we would do this. Through Gerry’s connections at the Lotos Club, we created the first Awards for Excellence dinner. It was at the Lotos Club, and it was a total sellout. We had to move it to the Harmonie Club, which was a little bit larger in space, again through Gerry’s connections. Again, it was a sellout. We honored Helene Fortunoff and Bess Ravella. We honored Angela Cummings for best designer, Marian Ruby for best retailer. We had Nancy Pier Sindt for best editor. The list goes on and on. It became such a sense of pride for all of us, to recognize each other for our accomplishments in the industry.
The award dinner kept growing and growing. We moved to Tavern on the Green, and again, it was a total sellout. We kept growing. For the last two years, it’s been at Chelsea Piers. There are over 700 women and men that attend. The awards have literally become the ticket in the industry. It’s a current event. It’s a great place to network. It’s a great place to catch up with your friends and your vendors in the industry, and it’s a beautiful, beautiful evening.
I am proud to say that from those original 10 women in Ronny Lavin’s apartment, there are now 20 chapters all over the world with, I believe, a membership of 17,000 women and men worldwide. The Women’s Jewelry Association is a force to be reckoned with, and now they have programs in all different regions. They have ongoing programs. When I look back on my career, the Women’s Jewelry Association stands out as one of my greatest highlights. Along the way I’ve gotten beautiful emails from members who said I actually changed the course of their lives by creating the Women’s Jewelry Association. I take those comments very seriously and to heart, because I was always trying to do something different and trying to make room for people to grow. If somebody got laid off from a job, I was the first person they would come to. I would always help them find a position or help them with what they’re going through and perhaps help them look at a different career within the industry.
When I started in the industry, there were barely any women. One of the women that stands out to me is Helene Fortunoff, because she was one of the very first women to ever have retail experience. She took all of her children to work with her every day. Five of her children worked with her every single day. Now not only are her children in the business, but Esther and Ruth have carried on their mother’s incredible journey in the jewelry business. It’s remarkable to see how, from the beginning to where we are now, the jewelry business has become one of the major industries in the world. Diamonds and precious and semi-precious stones, pearls, pearls, pearls—because I love pearls—are now the mainstay of what people look for when they’re going shopping for birthdays, anniversaries, holidays, or just when a woman wants to buy her own jewelry.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Eva Eisler
A star of the Prague art world, Eva Eisler is an internationally recognized sculptor, furniture/product designer, and jeweler. Rooted in constructivist theory, her structurally-based objects project a unique spirituality by nature of their investment with “sacred geometry.” The current series of necklaces and brooches, fabricated from stainless steel, are exemplars of this aesthetic. In 2003, she developed a line of sleek, stainless steel tabletop objects for mono cimetric design in Germany.
Eisler is also a respected curator and educator. She is chairman of the Metal and Jewelry Department at the Academy of Arts, Architecture and Design in Prague, where she heads the award-winning K.O.V. (concept-object-meaning) studio. Her work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Brooklyn Museum and Cooper-Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum in New York; Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; Museum of Fine Arts, Houston; Renwick Gallery, Smithsonian American Art Museum, Washington, D.C.; Montreal Museum of Fine Arts in Canada; Pinakothek der Moderne, Munich; and Museum of Decorative Arts, Prague, among others.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Eva Eisler is the rare designer who works on projects as small as a ring and as large as a building. What connects her impressive portfolio of work? An interest in sacred geometry and a desire to discover new ideas that can be applied in multiple ways. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she communicates a message through jewelry; why jewelry students should avoid learning traditional techniques too early; and her thoughts on good design. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. My guest today is Eva Eisler, Head of the Jewelry Department of the Academy of Arts in Prague. She’s probably one of the most well-known artists in the Czech Republic. Welcome back.
How long were you in New York? A long time?
Eva: 25 years.
Sharon: Wow! I didn’t realize that. And did you teach the whole time?
Eva: I taught for a few years at Parsons School of Design, and then New York University pulled me in. It was Judith Schwartz, who was the Director of the Department of Art Education, who wanted to expose the students to metalworking. So, she asked me to come and teach there.
Sharon: Did you do jewelry and other things because you wanted to have not so much grayness in the world, to have color, to have joy?
Eva: Are you asking?
Sharon: Yeah, I’m asking. Did you break out, in a sense, because of the world around you?
Eva: I think that one challenge after the other gave me strength and conviction. This is something I can work with, the medium of jewelry, because it’s so communicative. I had so many incredible encounters through wearing a piece of jewelry. For example, I went to a party at Princeton University. I’m talking to this professor of physics. He’s telling me how they are developing an artificial sun, and he’s looking at my piece. When he finished talking about his project, he said, “Is this what I think it is?” I said, “Clearly, yes.” It was a piece of metal bent into an S, one line and one dot. It’s basically telling you that it depends on a point of view and how you perceive things. I used to like to come up with a concept that I would play with in different theories.
Sharon: Did you expect to be in the States for 25 years? That’s a long time.
Eva: No. We were allowed by Czechoslovakia to go for one year. After one year, we politely applied for an extension. It was denied to us. So, we were actually abroad illegally and we could not return because we did not obey the rules.
Sharon: When you came back, did you teach? We saw some of your students’ work. What do you tell them about your work? What do you teach them?
Eva: It’s a different system. In New York, you teach one class at a time if you’re not a full-time professor at the university. In New York, it’s very rare. The intensity and the high quality of professionals in all different fields allows schools to pull them in, so they can take a little bit of their time and share with students what they do. It’s not that you devote your full time to teaching.
In the Czech Republic, it’s different. At the academy where I have taught for 16 years, you’re the professor, and you have a student for six years with a special degree in the master’s program. For six years, you’re developing the minds of these young people. I don’t teach them techniques. We have a workshop and there is a workshop master. I talk to them about their ideas. We consult twice a week for six years. It’s a long time. I would be happy if somebody talked about my work for half an hour once a year. I would have to ask somebody because I need it as well. It’s a different system, the European system of schools.
Sharon: You’re head of the K.O.V. Studio. How would you translate that?
Eva: The academy is divided into departments, and each department is a different media: Department of Architecture, Department of Industrial Design and so on. We are part of the Department of Applied Arts, which is divided between ceramics, glass, textile, fashion. My studio is about metal, and for metal in Czech, you write “kov.” When I took over the studio, I put dots in between the letters, which stands for “concept, object, meaning.” In Czech, meaning isn’t even a word. That way, I could escape the strict specialization for metal, because when you’re 20 and you go study somewhere, do you know you want to work for the rest of your life in metal? No. Today, we are also exploring different materials, discovering new materials. I am giving them assignments and tasks. Each of them has to choose the right material, so the person comes up with using concrete or cork or wood or paper or different things, glass or metal.
Sharon: How do you balance everything? You have so much going on. How do you balance it?
Eva: I have to do three jobs because teaching does not make a living, even though I’m a full-time professor. It’s an underpaid profession, maybe everywhere.
Sharon: I was going to say that, everywhere.
Eva: Then I do my own art, and I do large projects like designing exhibitions, curating exhibitions, designing a design shop. Things like that to make money to support those other two. It’s a lot, yes. I have grandchildren.
Sharon: A family. Yes, it’s a lot. You’ve done jewelry shows and you’ve evaluated shows. What’s important to you? What stands out? What jumps out at you?
Eva: I sit on juries. In 2015, I was invited to be a curator of Schmuck, the jewelry exhibition in Munich. It’s a big challenge, selecting out of 600 applicants for a show that at the end has only 60 people from all over the world. When I looked at the work, we flipped through pictures one after the other. It’s so incredible what jewelry has evolved into, this completely open, free thing, many different styles, many different trends and materials. There’s organic and geometric and plastic. I noticed these different groups and that I could divide all these people into different groups, different styles, different materials. Then I was selecting the best representation of these groups. It made it quite clear and fast when I came up with this approach.
Sharon: Does something jump out at you, though, when you’re looking through all these—let’s say you’ve divided all the glass, all the metal—
Eva: Very rarely, because we go to Munich every year. I go and see exhibitions all over, so it’s very random. You can see something completely different and new. I worked on a very interesting exhibition that year at the Prague Castle. Cartier does not have a building for their collection, a museum. They have the collection traveling around in palaces and castles and exhibition galleries around the world, and each place has a different curator. I was invited to curate it in Prague. It was the largest Cartier exhibition ever displayed. It was around 60 pieces for this show, and it was in Bridging Hall of the Prague Castle, an enormous space.
That was very interesting because at the moment I accepted this challenging job, I had never walked into a Cartier anywhere in the world, in New York, Paris, London, because I was never curious. It was real jewelry, but when I started working with the collection, which is based in Geneva, and I was going to Paris to these workshops and archives, I discovered the completely different world of making jewelry, how they, in the middle of the 19th century, approached this medium and based it on perfection and mechanisms and the material. So, the best of the best craftsmen were put together in one place. It was very challenging.
Another exhibit I worked on was for a craft museum. It was called The Radiant Geometries. Russell Newman was the curator, and I was doing the display faces. My work was part of the show as well. That was a super experience.
An interesting show I had was at Columbia University at the School of Architecture. The dean was Bernard Tschumi, the deconstructivist architect. He invited me to do an exhibition of jewelry and drawings for their students of architecture. Can you imagine? The students looked at the work, and they thought they were small architecture models. I developed a new system for how to hold them together. For that exhibition, I built cabinets that I later developed into a system with vitrines. After the exhibition with vitrines, I started making chairs and tables and benches, and later on I used it again for an exhibition when I was in Brussels. One thing leads me to another. One thing inspires the other. I go from flats, from drawings and paintings, into three-dimensional objects. I need a lance, so I design it and then some company makes it.
Sharon: Wow! What do you think has kept your attention? We’ll have pictures of the jewelry on the website so people can see it. I love the necklace you have on. It’s avant garde. Everything in the exhibit and everything your students did was avant garde. So, what holds your attention about it? How would you describe it?
Eva: I think making something like many people did before you doesn’t make any sense. We are surrounded by so much stuff. It only makes it worth spending your talent and time when it’s something new. You’re discovering something new that somebody else can learn from and apply somewhere else. For example, this necklace is just held by the tension of the spring wire. Next time, maybe I can use it for some lighting. Who knows?
Sharon: I’d like to see that if you do it. What makes a good exhibit? You’ve been in charge of so many exhibits. What makes a good jewelry exhibit?
Eva: It should be based on a common theme or concept, and all the objects should together tell a story. Also, the exhibition design or architectural design of the show is very important. A lot of exhibition architects are creating something so powerful that you can’t see the work that is showing. My rule is that the installation basically should disappear. The work is the most important thing, right?
Sharon: Yes, that’s true. You mentioned a story, like each area or part should tell a story. Would you agree with that?
Eva: If it’s large exhibition of jewelry in different styles, let’s say, it should be grouped into similar topics so it empowers them. If you have one piece of this kind, another piece of a different kind next to each other, then—I don’t know; it can be anything. It depends on the curator or the architect. Look at the Danner Rotunda in Munich. Their collection is strung together. Maybe the curator or the artist who did the installation wanted to create a dialogue of completely different characters, like when you have guests for dinner and you’re thinking who sits next to whom. You want to create an exciting dialogue.
Sharon: When you came to New York, do you think you stood out? In Czechoslovakia did you stand out? Could you hold your own within these different parties?
Eva: I’m not the one who can judge it, but yes. I heard from different people what caught their attention, and why, for example, Judy Schwartz said, “I was waiting patiently all these years,” whenever she finds the time to teach at NYU. I was always amazed by her education. Toni Greenbaum wrote a beautiful piece when we first met. She was intrigued by what I wore and how I looked, but mostly by a piece of jewelry I wore. I sewed the dress a day before because I thought, “What am I going to wear?” I designed it myself. If somebody asks me what I collect—mostly everybody collects something—I usually say I collect people. People together create society, create culture. One cannot stand alone. Through the work I do, it brings me to people. I try, and the results bring me to better people. That’s what I value most.
Sharon: That’s interesting. That was going to be my next question, but you answered it. Everybody does collect something, and people have different definitions of collections. Collecting people is a collection, yes, and you collect people all over the world. Thank you so much for being with us today, Eva. I really appreciate it.
Eva: Thank you so much for inviting me and talking to me. I’m saying hello to everyone who is listening.
Sharon: Well will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Eva Eisler
A star of the Prague art world, Eva Eisler is an internationally recognized sculptor, furniture/product designer, and jeweler. Rooted in constructivist theory, her structurally-based objects project a unique spirituality by nature of their investment with “sacred geometry.” The current series of necklaces and brooches, fabricated from stainless steel, are exemplars of this aesthetic. In 2003, she developed a line of sleek, stainless steel tabletop objects for mono cimetric design in Germany.
Eisler is also a respected curator and educator. She is chairman of the Metal and Jewelry Department at the Academy of Arts, Architecture and Design in Prague, where she heads the award-winning K.O.V. (concept-object-meaning) studio. Her work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, Brooklyn Museum and Cooper-Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum in New York; Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; Museum of Fine Arts, Houston; Renwick Gallery, Smithsonian American Art Museum, Washington, D.C.; Montreal Museum of Fine Arts in Canada; Pinakothek der Moderne, Munich; and Museum of Decorative Arts, Prague, among others.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Eva Eisler is the rare designer who works on projects as small as a ring and as large as a building. What connects her impressive portfolio of work? An interest in sacred geometry and a desire to discover new ideas that can be applied in multiple ways. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she communicates a message through jewelry; why jewelry students should avoid learning traditional techniques too early; and her thoughts on good design. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
My guest today is Eva Eisler, s. She’s probably one of the most well-known artists in the Czech Republic. Her work is minimal and refined. She also designs clothing, furniture, sculpture and so many other things I can’t tell you about. She has taught and studied at Parsons School of Design, and she’ll fill us in on everything she’s learned. I’m sure I’m leaving something out, but she’ll fill us in today. Eva, welcome to the program.
Eva: Thank you for having me.
Sharon: Great to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you study it? Were you artistic as a youth?
Eva: I only thought about this yesterday. You’re the first person I’m going to tell this story to. During the war, my grandfather, because he was very practical and forward-thinking, was buying jewelry from people who needed money to have safety deposits for later, whatever happened after the war. When I was born in 1952, there was still a little bit left of the treasure he collected and enclosed in a beautiful wooden treasure box. When I was a good girl, I could play with real jewelry in gold and stones.
When I grew older, I never thought of jewelry as something I would design. It was something I could play with as a girl, but when I got older, living in a communist country—Czechoslovakia turned into a Soviet Bloc country after the war—everything was so gray and constrained and monotonous. People were afraid to say whatever they thought, and I was feeling that I had to start something provocative, to start some kind of dialogue about different things. So, I started making jewelry, but because I didn’t know any techniques, I did it in the form of ready-mades, looking for different metal parts out of machines, kitchen utensils, a stainless-steel shower hose, a clock spring, sunglasses, all different things. I didn’t know people like that existed somewhere else, like Anni Albers, who in the 40s created a beautiful necklace out of paperclips. I learned that much, much later.
I was not only making jewelry. I was also making lamps and small sculptures, because creating things always made me happy. My mother was an art teacher. My father was a scientist. He was one of the founders of robotics in the 50s, and he ended up teaching at the most famous universities around the world later on. That’s how I started making jewelry, but I wanted to proceed with a profession in architecture. That was always my main interest. After school, I worked for a few years as an architect. Later on, I got married and had children, and I wanted to be free from a steady job and do what I loved most, create.
Sharon: When you were an architect, were you designing buildings?
Eva: I was part of a team for experience. I was given smaller tasks that I had to do, mostly parts of the interior.
Sharon: Did you do sculpture and jewelry on the side? Your sculpture is such a big part.
Eva: Yeah, we’re talking about when I was 25, 26. In 1983, my husband and I and our two children moved to New York, because John was invited by Richard Maier to come and work for him. That was a big challenge that one should not refuse. So, we did the journey, even though it was not easy with two little children.
Sharon: Did you speak English at all, or did you have to learn when you came?
Eva: I did because my father, in the 60s, when it was possible, was on a contract with Manchester University in England teaching. Me and my brothers went there for summer vacations for two years. One year, I was sent to one of his colleagues to spend the summer, and then I married John, who is half-British. His British mother didn’t speak Czech, so I had to learn somehow. But it was in Europe when I got really active, because I needed to express my ideas.
Sharon: Does your jewelry reflect Czechoslovakia, the Czech Republic? It’s different than jewelry here, I think.
Eva: There were quite a few people who were working in the field of contemporary avant garde jewelry. I can name a few: Anton Setka, Wasoof Siegler. Those were brilliant artists whose work is part of major museums around the world, but I was not focused on this type of work when I still lived in the Czech Republic, Czechoslovakia at that time. It was when I arrived in New York. I thought, “What am I going to do? I have two little children. Should I go and look for a job in some architecture office?” It would be almost impossible if you don’t have the means to hire babysitters and all the services. So, I thought, “I have experience with jewelry. I love it, and I always made it as a means of self-expression and a tool for communication. O.K., I am going to try to make jewelry, but from scratch, not as a ready-made piece out of components that I would find somewhere.”
I didn’t know any techniques. Somebody gave me old tools after her late husband died. I started trying something, and I thought, “Maybe I can take a class.” I opened the Yellow Pages looking at schools, and I closed my eyes and pointed my finger at one of the schools and called there. This woman answered the phone, and she said, “Why don’t you come and see me and show me what you did?” When I showed it to her, she said, “Are you kidding? You should be teaching here.” It was one of my ready-made pieces. Actually, a few years before I came to New York, I went to London and showed it to Barbara Cartlidge, who had the first gallery for contemporary jewelry anywhere in the world in London. She loved it. She loved my work, and she bought five pieces. She took my work seriously, because basically I was playing and wearing it myself and giving it to a few friends who would get it as a present. So, I was shocked and very pleased.
This is what I showed this woman at the Parsons School of Design. This woman was the chair that took care of the department. I said, “I cannot teach here. I don’t know anything,” and she said, “Well, clearly you do, but you’re right. You should take a class and get to know how the school works, and maybe we can talk about you teaching here a year later.” I took a foundation course in jewelry making. It was Deborah Quado(?) who taught it. One day she said to my classmates, “This woman is dangerous.” I forgot to say that before I started this class, the chair invited me to a party at her house to introduce me to her colleagues. It was funny, because I was fresh out of the Czech Republic, this isolated, closed country, and I was in New York going to a party. I needed those people that became my friends for life.
That was a super important beginning of my journey in New York into the world of jewelry. A few years later, when I made my first collection, someone suggested I show it to Helen Drutt. I had no idea who Helen Drutt was. She was somewhere in Philadelphia. I went there by train, and Helen is looking at the work and says, “Would you mind if I represent your work in the gallery?” I said, “Well, sure, that’s great,” but I had no idea that this was the beginning of something, like a water drain that pulls me in. The jewelry world pulled me in, and I was hooked.
From then on, I continued working and evolving my work. When I started teaching at Parsons, students would ask me whether they could learn how to solder and I said, “I advise you not to learn any traditional techniques because when you do, you will start making the same work as everybody else. You should give it your own way of putting things together.” At the end, I did teach them how to solder, and I was right.
I tried to continue with the same techniques I started when I was making these ready-made pieces, but with elements I created myself. Then I tried to put it together held by tension and different springs and flexible circles. I got inspired by bridges, by scaffolding on buildings, by electric power towers. I was transforming it into jewelry, and it got immediate attention from the press and from different galleries and collectors. I was onto something that kept me in the field, but eventually, when my kids grew older, this medium was too small for me. I wanted to get larger. Eventually, I did get back into designing interiors, but it was not under my own name.
Sharon: When you look at your résumé, it’s hard to distill it down. You did everything, sculpture, architecture, interior design and jewelry. It’s very hard to distill down. Interior design, does it reflect the avant garde aspect?
Eva: Yes, I am trying to do it my way. I love to use plywood and exposed edges to make it look very rough, but precise in terms of the forms. If you think of Donald Judd, for example, and his sculptures and nice furniture, it’s a similar direction, but I’m trying to go further than that. I’m putting together pieces of furniture and vitrines for exhibitions and exhibition designs. While I am taking advantage of the—
Sharon: Opportunity?
Eva: Opportunity, yes. Sorry. I don’t have that many opportunities lately to speak English, so my English is—
Sharon: It’s very good.
Eva: On the other hand, yes, I’m interested in doing all these things, especially things that I never did before. I always learn something, but it’s confusing to the outside world. “So, what is she? What is she trying to say?” For example, this famous architectural historian and critic, Kenneth Frampton from Columbia University, once said, “If one day somebody will look at your architectural works all together, they will understand that it’s tight with a link, an underlying link.”
Sharon: Do you think you have an underlying link? Is it the avant garde aspect? What’s your underlying link?
Eva: It’s the systems. It’s the materials. It’s the way it’s constructed. I’m a humble worshipper of sacred geometry. I like numbers that have played an important role in the past.
Sharon: Do you think the jewelry you saw when you came to the States was different than what you had seen before? Was it run-of-the-mill?
Eva: When I came to New York a few years later, I formed a group because I needed to have a connection. I organized a traveling show for this group throughout Europe and the group was—
Sharon: In case people don’t know the names, they are very well-known avant garde people.
Eva: All these people were from New York, and we exhibited together at Forum Gallery and Robert Lee Morris on West Broadway. That brought us together a few times in one show, and through the tours I organized in New York, Ghent, Frankfurt, Berlin, Vienna and Prague.
Sharon: Wow! We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About William Harper
Born in Ohio and currently working in New York City, William Harper is considered one of the most significant jewelers of the 20th century. After studying advanced enameling techniques at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Harper began his career as an abstract painter but transitioned to enameling and studio craft jewelry in the 1960s. He is known for creating esoteric works rooted in mythology and art history, often using unexpected objects such as bone, nails, and plastic beads in addition to traditional enamel, pearls, and precious metals and stones.
His work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Museum Craft+ Design, the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, the Victoria and Albert Museum, the Philadelphia, the Hermitage Museum, totaling over 35 museums worldwide. A retrospective of his work, William Harper: The Beautiful & the Grotesque, was exhibited at the Cleveland Institute of Art in 2019.
Additional Resources:
William's Instagram
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Rather than stifle his creativity, the constraints of quarantine lockdown and physical health issues helped artist-jeweler William Harper create a series of intricate jewels and paintings imbued with meaning. After 50+ years as an enamellist, educator and artist in a variety of media, he continues to find new ways to capture and share his ideas. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his creative process; why he didn’t want his art students to copy his style; and why he never throws a piece in progress away, even if he doesn’t like it. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. I’d like to welcome back one of today’s foremost jewelers, William Harper. To say he is a jeweler leaves out many parts of him. He’s a sculptor, an educator, an artist, an enamellist, and I’m sure I’m leaving out a lot more. Welcome back.
Yes. Is that how you got to the collection you did during lockdown quarantine?
William: Yes. I live in New York, and New York had almost a complete shutdown. My husband and I were afraid we were going to come down with a disease if we intermingled with too many people. We essentially were in lockdown or quarantine for several months. In that period, I decided I wanted to do something absolutely different from anything I had done before, and I wanted it to be politically motivated. So, just as Goya or Manet or Picasso did important paintings based on criticizing a political body—in Guernica, for instance, Picasso was painting the disruption of the small town of Guernica in Spain. Very powerful. I wanted to see if I could do that in jewelry, which was really strange, I have to say.
I had been playing for at least a year with the idea of trying to do a piece inspired by the expression “the tainted fruit of the poisoned tree.” That’s an obtuse way of approaching a piece of jewelry, but I thought of it in terms of the bottom of the tree, the poisoned tree, was our ex-president. At the top, there were elements that represented his monstrous children. You see my politics right there. It’s a beautiful piece. If you know the substance behind it, it will mean more to you, but you don’t have to. I wanted each piece to be beautiful. Now, my idea of beauty can be unlike a lot of people’s, but I think an artist has to know his guidelines for what he wants to be beautiful. There’s nothing wrong with the term “ugly” if it has an aesthetic purpose. I did this entire series on that idea.
Sharon: Does quarantine mean something besides—
William: No.
Sharon: Do people ever choose your pieces because of the political message?
William: In this last group, the Quarantine Pieces, there were 10. The first two I sold were to a collector who appreciated very much the political leanings behind it. You don’t have to know. If I had someone come in that I knew was a staunch Republican, I wouldn’t tell them what the motivation was. Well, maybe I would, and then I’d tell them they weren’t special enough to own one of my pieces.
Sharon: I was asking about quarantine, and you said you didn’t mean more. Let me ask you this. You taught for more than 20 or 25 years at Florida, right?
William: I taught for 21 years at Florida. Before that, I taught for three years at Kent State. Before that, I taught for three years in a Cleveland high school.
Sharon: So, it’s 30.
William: Yes. I came to the conclusion not too long after I started teaching in college that a lot of people were there and didn’t really know what they were doing. They were able to get tenure simply by hanging on long enough. But in teaching at a high school, it forced me to be very exact about what I wanted them to do, and yet allow them to have a lot of leeway to do anything original and outside the box. I consider those three years in high school to have been very important to me as a college instructor. I guess it worked, because at the end of my 21 years at Florida State, I was named a distinguished professor. So, I guess my teaching methods paid off.
Sharon: Do you think you can impart your ideas? It sounds like you imparted them to high school students, but can you teach your ideas?
William: No, I don’t want to teach my ideas. I want to teach a subject matter or a format in terms of a specific media. Maybe it’s a drawing problem. I remember early on in my first year of teaching, I came across a group of toadstools in the yard that were starting to shrivel. I picked up enough to give each table triple toadstools. I simply put them on a piece of white paper on the table, and I said, “This is your inspiration. Now, what do you do with it? And it has to be in pencil.” That was how I handled that situation. If a student’s work starts to look like mine, they were not a successful student and I was not a successful instructor.
I have always urged students to find their own voice. A lot of people can’t do that. They have mastered a technique, but if the technique leaves you cold when it’s finished, then it’s not very successful. I want some kind of emotional connection with whatever they feel when they’re creating or painting or making a piece of jewelry. I want to see that they have made a connection to what they are deep, deep down and have it come out in their work.
When I taught at Florida State, I was a very popular teacher. Students who were in engineering or communications or theatre would take my course and then decide they wanted it to be their major. I would tell them their father was paying far too much money for them to go to college to major in something that was going to be totally useless to them when they were out of college. I considered that a very important part of my teaching, because I didn’t want people getting bogged down. I didn’t need high numbers of students. As long as I knew they were taking it as an elective, I was fine with it. If said they wanted to major in it, I had to make sure I foresaw that they would have it in them to do well.
Sharon: When did you decide you could part ways and make a living from this?
William: That was a rather difficult thing to determine. It was a goal, but I didn’t know if I would ever get to it. In 1995, I had been represented for a few years by an outstanding New York gallery, Peter Joseph Gallery. He handled high-end, handmade furniture. It wasn’t anything you would find in a furniture store; it was artist furniture, and he decided he wanted to add me to his group. I was the lone jeweler within the group of artists in his gallery, and it was a gallery that only represented a small number of people. I think when I was in it, there were only 11 or 12 artists he represented. He was able to sell my work very well.
I always wanted to be able to just throw in the towel and see if I could do it on my own. In the spring of 1995, when I found out I was being named distinguished research professor, there were two other gentlemen in meteorology who were also named. I was always upset at how low my salary was in comparison to a lot of other people. In Florida, every library had to have a book of what every professor made and what they taught in terms of their load. The gentlemen in meteorology were making three times what I was making.
I spoke with my then-wife and said, “It’s time to take a chance and see if I could do it by myself.” I prepared myself the next day with a folder that had a resignation letter in it. I went to the vice president who was in charge of everything and said, “There’s a disparity of treatment with the three of us.” They were all making three times as much money as I was, and I at least wanted to be brought up closer to what I should have been paid considering what my title suggested. When I told the vice president that, he said, “Bill, you know you have the weakest team in the college. I can’t depend on your department to bring any enhancement of reputation,” and I said, “Well, in that case, I resign.” He looked at me quizzically, and I pulled out my letter and said, “Here it is,” and I signed it and gave it to him.
It was the only way I could do it. Then I was forced to go home and get a studio and do things I knew could sell enough to keep us at the same level we had been at when I had a university job. I should say the one cog in the wheel I was able to overcome—and people don’t necessarily know this about me, but in 1990, both of my retinas detached. I had to have emergency surgery. After several surgeries, my right eye was fairly stabilized. I don’t have much peripheral vision, but it was stabilized. My left eye, I’m totally blind. I’m halfway towards Beethoven, who wrote his last symphony without being able to hear the music. My one eye serves me well enough, obviously, to continue making rather intricate work.
Sharon: How come your jewelry is so different? It’s certainly not mainstream. It’s gorgeous, but it’s not mainstream. What would you say makes it so different?
William: I’m just special. It’s the format I’ve already described. I don’t want to make jewelry that’s like anybody else’s. I definitely don’t want to fall into categorization.
Sharon: Have you thought about doing production, more than one?
William: I tried it once and it was a total failure. My daughter had a boyfriend who knew someone who was the vice president of one of those TV networks where you could call and buy things. Carl said, “Bill, come up with a group of pieces, and I’ll see that so-and-so is able to see them so you can become part of the team.” I worked and worked and worked, and they weren’t me, and I didn’t think they were vanilla enough for the home shopping network to carry. So, that was the end of that. I knew it wasn’t within my set of talents to do that. You asked how it is—
Sharon: I can’t remember what I asked. Do you see people on the street, let’s say two women, or a man and a woman who wears a brooch and says, “Oh, that’s a William Harper. You must know him,” or “I know who that is”?
William: My funniest story about that is when my ex-wife and I were in Venice. It was a foggy morning, and we sat down in a café to have some cappuccino or hot chocolate or something like that. I had to turn my head because I don’t have any sight in the left eye, but from my left I saw a couple coming. They were chattering away, and then I could tell the gentleman was trying to describe to the woman the piece of very large, spectacular jewelry my wife was wearing. They passed close enough so I would hear it. They thought they were insulting me. The gentleman said, “You see that piece of jewelry? There’s a man in the United States named William Harper, much, much better than that.” I didn’t correct him. I thought it was a story I could hold onto the rest of my life. Actually, it was a compliment.
Sharon: It is. Why do you say your work is fearless? I would say it is fearless, but why would you say that?
William: The word I was trying to think of before was branding. I’m not a brand.
Sharon: Right, you’re not a brand.
William: But anyone who sees one of my works, if they’re remotely familiar with the field, they will know it’s mine. Many ladies tell me that they were wearing a piece of my jewelry and a stranger would come up to them and say, “Excuse me. That’s a beautiful piece of jewelry. Is it a William Harper?” Or maybe they didn’t even know who it was, and the wearer would say, “Yes, it’s Harper. Isn’t it beautiful?” That’s happened a number of times. I love when a lady reports that back to me.
Sharon: Is it fearless?
William: It’s not your everyday piece of jewelry that a lady’s going to wear. It is more potent than that. I also hope—although I can’t force it, obviously—when someone owns a piece of mine that they dress accordingly, where the outfit they have is secondary to the piece of jewelry. I have seen my jewelry on the lapels of a Chanel jacket, and that combination doesn’t help either one of us.
Sharon: I can see why that doesn’t work. When you’re deciding how to do something, are you thinking about how you can be different or fearless, or how the piece can be different?
William: I don’t worry about that. I have enough confidence in my creative ability to know that it will come out strange enough. Even within the art jewelry movement, my work is fairly in the category of not being a decorative pin, let’s say, that has no life to it, that’s put on somebody’s sweater. That kind of work becomes an adornment to the costume the lady is wearing. I want my work, as I said, to be strong enough that the lady is going to have to sublimate what she would like to wear and get clothes that are very plain.
For instance, the red blouse you have on would be a perfect foil for one of my pieces in navy blue or black. In a way, she is becoming like the wall that holds a beautiful painting. It’s the same way. Her body is the presentational element for my piece of jewelry to really perform.
Sharon: What have you been doing in terms of your jewelry since the restrictions lifted?
William: When I finished the tenth piece in the Quarantine Series, which was March 22, 2020, I had worked until 2:00 in the morning. I was very happy with what I had done. I had just finished the piece absolutely and I went to bed. The next morning, I woke and could not move anything in my body. I thought I had had a stroke, but after several days in the hospital, I was diagnosed with a very rare affliction. It’s an auto-immune disease called Guillain-Barre syndrome It’s not fatal, but it’s a menace because you lose almost everything, like walking. I couldn’t sign my own name, for instance. I had to go through a long process of physical therapy. I’m 95% functional, but I don’t feel that I’m ready to take a chance with a torch or deal with anything where I could hurt myself or, god forbid, burn down the apartment. The entire building would shake.
So, I tried to keep away from that, but in the process, I knew I had to do something. My husband and some close friends said, “Bill, you love to paint. You love to draw. You love collages.” So, I have spent the time since then doing very intricate collage drawings that became very, very colorful. They’re all 24x30, I believe, and they’re really very beautiful. About a month ago, I was giving a lecture at Yale, and when I showed these slides and drawing collages to the head of the department, he said, “I can see they’re absolutely you. They look just like something you would have done without looking like your jewelry.” That was the highest compliment he could give me. I really have enjoyed doing it. I think making those saved my mental health because I’ve had something to do.
It’s still hard for me to go to a museum because I can’t stand long enough to walk around, and I refuse to go in a wheelchair. I don’t want to do that. So, I’ve been restricted to what I can do in terms of being ambulatory. For instance, it was just this week that I finally, with the aid of my husband—who’s also a Bill, incidentally—to start using public transportation. Until then I had used car services, which over a month’s time, when you can’t do anything else and you have to go to doctors and physical therapy and stuff like that, becomes disgustingly expensive. I knew I didn’t want to keep doing that. It was eating into my savings. So, I thought, “O.K., Bill, it’s time to start using public transportation.” I’ve used it three times without any problem, but my husband is with me. I have trouble going up and down steps sometimes, so he wants to make sure I don’t trip and fall and get mangled by all the other troops coming out of the train that just want to get wherever they’re going to.
Sharon: But you give lectures still?
William: Oh, yeah, for a long time. Colleges, art schools, universities with art departments. We’re not really in session, so there wasn’t any lecture to give—
Sharon: I keep forgetting, yes.
William: —when all those things are shut down. The lecture at Yale—and that’s a pretty good place to start—was the first time I had done that for years.
Sharon: Wow! I want to say thank you very much because I learned a lot about you today.
William: Thank you, Sharon. It’s been lovely to be here with you.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About William Harper
Born in Ohio and currently working in New York City, William Harper is considered one of the most significant jewelers of the 20th century. After studying advanced enameling techniques at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Harper began his career as an abstract painter but transitioned to enameling and studio craft jewelry in the 1960s. He is known for creating esoteric works rooted in mythology and art history, often using unexpected objects such as bone, nails, and plastic beads in addition to traditional enamel, pearls, and precious metals and stones.
His work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, The Museum Craft+ Design, the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, the Victoria and Albert Museum, the Philadelphia, the Hermitage Museum, totaling over 35 museums worldwide. A retrospective of his work, William Harper: The Beautiful & the Grotesque, was exhibited at the Cleveland Institute of Art in 2019.
Additional Resources:
William's Instagram
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Rather than stifle his creativity, the constraints of quarantine lockdown and physical health issues helped artist-jeweler William Harper create a series of intricate jewels and paintings imbued with meaning. After 50+ years as an enamellist, educator and artist in a variety of media, he continues to find new ways to capture and share his ideas. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his creative process; why he didn’t want his art students to copy his style; and why he never throws a piece in progress away, even if he doesn’t like it. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
I’d like to welcome back one of today’s foremost jewelers, William Harper. To say he is a jeweler leaves out many parts of him. He’s a sculptor, an educator, an artist, an enamellist, and I’m sure I’ve leaving out a lot more. His work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the American Museum of Crafts, the Museum of Fine Arts, and most recently he had a one-person show, “The Beautiful & the Grotesque,” at the Cleveland Institute of Art. I can’t do justice to all of his work, so I’ll let him try to do some. Bill, welcome to the program.
William: Thank you. It’s great to see you again.
Sharon: It’s so great to see you after everything we’ve gone through. Give us an overview of how you got into jewelry and enameling, your art, everything. How did you get into it?
William: One of the questions you gave me to ponder ahead of time was if I was interested in jewelry when I was a child. I was not even interested in jewelry when I was in college, except for taking one course to make the wedding rings for my now ex-wife, but that was it.
A few years later, I got a phone call from Florida State University asking me if I would like to interview for a job teaching jewelry and metals and enameling. I wrote back and said, “I don’t think I’m the person you want, because I don’t know very much about jewelry.” So, I said no. Two days later, they called me again, and I told them the same thing. Then two days later, they called me again and I said, “Let me think about this. You’re on the quarter system. Are you willing to pay me for one quarter, when I’m not there and I’m cramming on how to teach jewelry?” The head of the department said, “That sounds like a great idea. As long as you can come three weeks ahead of the students, we’ll be happy.”
I’m basically self-taught except for watching people at a few workshops. I think being self-taught is a very valuable tool because I was not chained to the style or techniques of any major professor, which happens so much, especially to students coming out with MFAs. For years, their work will look pretty much like what their instructor was doing. I didn’t have that. I was my own instructor, and I was able to play out, in my 55-year career, how to do what I saw vaguely in my mind.
I should say at this point, I had synesthesia—I could never say it correctly—which is the ability to hear music and see colors or see a painting and hear music. I’m blessed with that. I used to think it was a chain around my neck, but I appreciate the fact that I can do something that very few people can do.
Sharon: You mean you see a painting or you hear music and you think about how that translates into art or jewelry? I’ll call what you do jewelry.
William: Yeah. The strangest one is I can smell an odor, whether it’s bad or something overly sweet, like old lady rose perfume or cigars, and I have an instant reaction where I see—I don’t see things; I sense things in my mind. That’s the way it works.
Sharon: You’ve talked about the dichotomy in your work. Does that play into it?
William: Oh, absolutely. I’ve always been in opposites. Long before I was doing jewelry, I had a very successful enamel career. I would usually make two different objects in the same physical format, but one would deal with sensations that are opposite of the other, such as light and dark, good and evil, colorful and noncolorful. That informed that work. Now, after all the years doing jewelry exclusively, I try to build diametrically opposed ideas into the forms.
You mentioned the exhibition the Cleveland Institute of Art gave me a few years ago, “The Beautiful & the Grotesque.” The title of that show epitomized what I’m usually doing in my work. Sometimes it’s not always obvious to the viewer, but it serves as a jumping point for me. If I can plug the catalogue—
Sharon: Please do.
William: Cleveland did a beautiful catalogue. Everything that was in the show was there. If you’re interested in it, it’s $25 plus $9.95 shipping. It adds up to $34.95. To get it, you can contact me at my email address, which is [email protected].
Sharon: [email protected].
William: Yes.
Sharon: We’ll have a thumbnail of that on the website so you can click on it and order it.
William: Good, you’ve seen the catalogue. Can you vouch for how beautiful it is?
Sharon: It’s a beautiful catalogue. It has everything, the jewelry, the boxes, all of the art. When I say boxes, I’m thinking of the ones that are really art pieces. You said you think a lot of art is about thinking. What do you think about when you’re doing your art?
William: It often starts way before I actually begin making anything. That’s a hard question to answer. For instance, I’ve done several series based on other artists, all of whom were painters. I prefer painting to jewelry right now, I have to say. But in terms of these influences, I would look at the work, for instance the work of Jean Dubuffet. He has incredibly beautiful, messy patterns that run—
Sharon: Who?
William: Jean Dubuffet.
Sharon: Oh, Dubuffet, yes.
William: I have loved his work for many, many years, and I have known that he was the instigator of what is called the art brut movement, which is art that is made by people that not only are not highly educated in universities or art departments, but they might have some kind of physical disability or mental disability, where they express themselves in these absolutely gorgeous, out of this world ways, not like any professional artist would do. Dubuffet collected those and was instrumental in having a museum set up—I think it was in Switzerland; I should know that—of this work.
Talking about dichotomy, I wanted to catch that quality of not knowing what I was doing along with my sophisticated technique and taste. So, I did this series. I think there are 10 pieces. In order to do it, as I got into the third or fourth piece, I decided I wanted to write an essay about what the series meant to me being put into this catalogue. So, I gave it the name Dubu.
Sharon: How?
William: D-U-B-U. I came up with idea that a Dubu is a fantastical creature that can infect your mind and cause you to do absolutely glorious things. It was just something I made up in my mind.
I should also say that I don’t start a piece and finish it immediately. I don’t even know where I’m going when I start a piece. I simply go into the studio and start playing around with the gold. I know that sounds silly, that somebody can play around with something as precious as gold. But in doing so, there’s another dichotomy. I’m able to come up with forms that I would never be able to otherwise. At this point, I should mention I do absolutely no sketches, diagrams, or beginning things on paper to guide me. I simply allow the materials to guide me. I trust in them and my manipulation of them that they will start leading me to see what I want to be after.
Sometimes these are small enamel pieces. Sometimes they’re more complex with gold pieces. Sometimes they’re a consideration of how to use a stone or a pearl. As I’m making these things, I know I can’t use them necessarily in piece number one. So, my idea is, “O.K., go to my idea for piece number two and follow the same format of making things, simply because they amuse me.” I don’t take myself seriously while I’m doing these things. I think that’s part of why they’re successful. I should say one of the qualities that my work has been lauded for is being humorous without being funny, without being a caricature. I have found that is a rather rough road to travel, but I’m able to facilitate it somehow.
Anyway, I have these pieces I made, piece number one and piece number two. I still want to play around with making, let’s say, a different kind of cloisonné enamel that had been used in pieces one and two. At that point, after I have made things that could become three different pieces, I take what I like and finish piece number one. As often as not, I think of the title first, which I know is a rather strange way to go about it. But in thinking of a title, it helps me guide the quality of the personage I’m dealing with.
So, I finished piece number one. I don’t take anything away from it at that point. When I get to piece number two, I’d better start making things for piece number four. There’s this manipulation where all the pieces start moving around on my desk. When I start seeing there is a conclusion in making each one successfully, I know I can stop. Often in that process, I paint myself into a corner. I don’t know where I’m going, but actually that’s the best part in terms of the quality of the piece, because it gives me the opportunity to really think about what I’m after. After I’ve contemplated that, I’m able to get out of the corner, and I do piece number two and piece number three. This is a process I’ve used my entire career.
I’ve done a series dedicated to Jasper Johns which is very intellectual, because he’s a very intellectual artist. I did a series on Fabergé. I don’t really like Fabergé. I admire him, but I don’t like him particularly. In my series, each brooch had an egg-shaped enamel part as a part of the physicality of the piece. One of the things I don’t like about Fabergé is that his work was very dry. It’s beautiful, but it’s dry. It doesn’t have any kind of emotion attached to it at all. It was perfect for the Russian nobility because they were decadent. They were inbred. They proceeded far too long in this sociological process. So, I changed it by having in each piece a little zip that went from the outside peripheral into the center, which was like a sperm getting to the egg and fertilizing it. That’s how I dealt with that matter.
I’ve also done a series on Cy Twombly, who is my favorite painter. I know people wonder how I can be influenced by his work, which I admire for its messiness. I wish I could do it. People either get Twombly or they don’t. When I look at a group of Twombly pieces, I’ll have an idea of how to start meshing these into the same process I mentioned before, with the Dubus. I think I did the Twomblys 25 years ago and they still look fresh. That’s how my process works.
Sharon: How do you know if you’ve hit a wall? If you say, “This isn’t going to work. I’m going to put it in the junk pile”?
William: I don’t put things in junk piles. It’s too expensive and the enamel is too precious. I just put the elements aside. I know if I’m doing a series of 10 pieces, or if I decide I want it to be 12 pieces—it’s never more than 12 in a series—by the time I get to 10 or 12, I had better have come to a conclusion with all those pieces and not have left off too many elements. I just put those aside. I might use them again in four years, five years. My work is rather slow because I think a lot about it, and I don’t have drawings to follow. I don’t think of myself as a designer; I think of myself as an artist who makes jewelry. There’s a difference.
Sharon: Do you know before you start how many pieces will be in a collection? Do you say, “I’m going to make 10 pieces. They’re going to be in the collection, and I have no idea what it is”?
William: Yeah, I generally set a goal for myself. There are other pieces I do that I call knee play pieces. Knee plays come from music. Robert Wilson collaborated on a piece that is now an iconic gem called Einstein on the Beach. It was in five acts, which, if you think my work is unintelligible, this work was almost totally unintelligible. But it appealed to a certain kind of mind as being exquisite.
Between each act, without scenery or costumes or anything like that, there were groups of instrumentalists and vocalists who would improvise. With the knee play pieces, it’s not determined what the music and the vocalization is going to be. The vocalization is not consisting of words; it’s consisting of almost primal sounds that are put together with a cadence of Phillip Glass music. The reason they call it knee play is that they connect the acts. As soon as this group of pieces, the knee play music, is over from act one, they will usually suggest some kind of music or situation you’re going to see in act two. That’s sort of a meandering, intellectual approach, but I really like the idea. In my career, I haven’t just made series. I’ve often done isolated pieces, and I would do those in order to open up thought processes I could use to get to the next series. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yes. Is that how you got to the collection you did during lockdown quarantine?
Between a contentious election, a global pandemic and a months-long quarantine, it’s no wonder that jeweler William Harper’s work has taken a darker turn than usual. Although Harper’s work has always been esoteric, the events of the past year have pushed him to play with the size, complexity and construction of his work. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to give us an inside look at the pieces he’s been working on and to talk about his creative process.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About William Harper
Born in Ohio and currently working in New York City, William Harper is considered one of the most significant jewelers of the 20th century. After studying advanced enameling techniques at the Cleveland Institute of Art, Harper began his career as an abstract painter but transitioned to enameling and studio craft jewelry in the 1960s. He is known for creating esoteric works rooted in mythology and art history, often using unexpected objects such as bone, nails, and plastic beads in addition to traditional enamel, pearls, and precious metals and stones.
His work is in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the American Museum of Crafts, the Cleveland Museum of Art, and the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston. A retrospective of his work, William Harper: The Beautiful & the Grotesque, was exhibited at the Cleveland Institute of Art in 2019.
Additional resources:
Photos:
A DUCK CAUGHT IN A THICKET:
A GATHER OF SOULS:
ESCAPE FROM THE PALACE:
GOLEM:
LA FLEUR DU MAL REDUX:
PARASITE:
THE ANNUNCIATION:
THE EXILED ONE:
THE POMPOUS CHARLATAN:
THE TAINTED FRUIT OF THE POISON TREE:
Sasha Nixon is a curator, historian, and practicing metalsmith. She specializes in the study of contemporary art jewelry, particularly how individual artists are influenced by ancient and historical jewelry styles and techniques. She is co-curator of the Museum of Arts and Design’s (MAD) exhibition Fake News and True Love: Fourteen Stories by Robert Baines (October 2018–March 2019) and received MAD’s 2018 Windgate curatorial internship. She also co-curated the exhibition ANTIQUEMANIA, presented at Pratt Manhattan during the inaugural New York City Jewelry Week (November 12–18, 2018).
The Society of North American Goldsmiths awarded Sasha their 2017 emerging curators grant for her exhibition, A View from the Jeweler’s Bench: Ancient Treasures, Contemporary Statements. She presented her paper “Pixels Bejeweled: Modern Media, Contemporary Jewelry, and the Replication of Desire” at the Fashion Institute of Technology’s international symposium “Digital Meets Handmade: Jewelry in the 21st Century” in May 2018. That paper and “In the Studio: Lin Cheung,” written for Metalsmith magazine, will be published later this year.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Beth Bernstein
Beth Bernstein is a jewelry historian, jewelry expert and collector of period and modern jewels—a purveyor of all things sparkly. She has a romance going on with the legend, language and sentiment behind the pieces. Her love for the story has inspired Beth to pen four books, with a fifth one in the works, and to spend the past twenty years as an editor and writer on the subject of jewels-old and new. She is a die-hard jewelry fan, so much so that she has designed her own collection throughout the 90s and continues to create bespoke jewels and work with private clients to procure antique and vintage jewelry
She owns a comprehensive consulting agency Plan B which provides a roster of services in multiple facets of the jewelry industry. These include building, launching and evolving designer brands and retail brick & mortar/online shops and curating designer shows and private collections.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Diving into centuries of antique jewelry can be intimidating for even the biggest jewelry lover, but Beth Bernstein is proof that anyone can find their niche in jewelry history. A collector of sentimental jewelry across several periods, Beth is a jewelry consultant and author of “The Modern Guide to Antique Jewelry.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how antique jewelry periods are defined; what make a collector a collector; and how to keep antique jewelry in good condition without putting it away forever in a safe. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to heart part one. Today, my guest is jewelry author, journalist, historian and consultant Beth Bernstein. She is the author of several books. Welcome back.
Tell us about “The Modern Guide to Antique Jewelry,” your most recent book. I was a little put off because I’m not into antique, but it’s very readable and interesting. Tell us about it.
Beth: That was the whole point. I had read so many antique books, because I was given piles of them to read way back when. I have a library full of books on antique jewelry and vintage jewelry. There’s really no difference between antique and vintage, which I write about in the book, but antique jewelry is 100 or more years old. From 2022, if you go back 100 years, it would be 1922, but we went up to 1925 because we wanted to get in some of the Art Deco period.
Anyway, I wanted to write it differently than the books I had read, and I had an aha moment in doing that. I was doing tours through seven centuries of jewelry at the Miami and New York antique shows that were produced by U.S. Antique Shows. They knew I knew a lot about antique jewelry, so it was the company’s idea that I do these tours. It started out with one tour each show, then it went to two tours each show. Before the pandemic, it was going to go to three tours each show because people kept signing up.
I took people through seven centuries of jewelry, from the Georgian era all the way through the 70s, from antique to vintage. I would take them to dealers that specialized in those time periods, and we’d talk about it. Then I’d have a Q&A for an hour, which always turned into a two-hour Q&A. Then we’d go to the next tour. People would ask me to take them back to some places and help them pick out jewelry, because I do have private clients. I love dealing with private clients who ask me to find antique things for them. Sometimes they’re also at the shows.
So, the aha moment came when I was doing these tours. I thought, “Oh, my god! I know all these dealers are very trustworthy. They all have different points of view. They deal in different time periods. Why don’t I do museum-quality jewelry, but what’s on the market today? Not what you can find only in museums, but what’s out there today that’s sold? Why don’t I interview some of these wonderful experts I’ve been taking people to?” And that made it different and more readable because it was more interactive, more conversational.
The beginning of the book is how to define your collecting style, and the last chapters are how to mix modern and antique. I did that chapter with Rebecca Selva from Fred Leighton, who’s a mastermind of mixing modern, vintage and antique. So, that was really fun. Then there’s how to shop an antique show, how to shop at auction. There’s a lot of how-tos and advice given. I also brought the dealers and the stores in to give advice, and I didn’t stick to just the biggest stores. Of course, I interviewed Wartski in London; I interviewed Fred Leighton and Macklowe Gallery in New York, but I also interviewed smaller dealers like Lothar Antiques, who is at Portobello. It’s different companies and it’s global. That was the fun of the book. So, it’s part travelogue because I interviewed people across the United States, the U.K., Paris, Amsterdam and Belgium.
Sharon: Wow! Did you write the proposal and then go to the publisher? Did they come to you? How does that work?
Beth: I’ve always written the proposal and gone to the publisher. For this book, I went to my publisher for “If These Jewels Could Talk” because I thought they did a wonderful job. He kept going back and forth. He wanted it to be not so conversational at first. He wanted it to be more like the old antique books he published, because he published a lot of antique books. It’s called ACC Art Books. It was Antique Collectors Club originally, but now it’s ACC Art Books. Then, all of a sudden, he came around. He was like, “No, we shouldn’t do it like that. We should do it the way you originally suggested.” It took him a year to come to that.
Then I wrote it, and there was an eight-month lag after I wrote it because of the pandemic. I wrote it at the beginning of the pandemic and handed it in on deadline, but it took eight more months for it to be published than it was supposed to. That was kind of interesting. People had to be put on furlough, and then there was a paper shortage, and it wasn’t getting to the ports on time. When it finally came out, I was holding my breath until it finally came in.
What I’m hearing from everyone that has read it and reviewed it—I write for Rapaport and Jewelry Connoisseur, and the editor-in-chief of those magazines, Sonia, read it. She said, “I read it straight through because it was so readable. It was like you wanted to keep going.” That made me feel really good.
Sharon: And you’re working on another book now.
Beth: Yeah, I’m working on another two books right now.
Sharon: Can you tell us anything about those? I said this book was an overview, but it’s very specific. It’s not an overview like some of the other books I’ve read on antiques.
Beth: No, it’s very specific because it has all different time periods. It’s an antique book, so it could only go to the beginnings of Art Deco. Vintage starts after that. So, it was very specific. I did the grand period as a separate chapter because the Victorian chapter was so big. Because, as you know, there are three different periods in the Victorian era.
Sentimental jewelry is my favorite type of antique jewelry. That’s what I collect the most of. That was its own chapter, even though it crosses over Georgian and Victorian. So, I pulled out some things from different periods and made them their own chapters. I also thought alternative materials should be its own chapter. Berlin iron went into alternative materials; rock crystal went into different materials, things that I thought would be interesting on their own and in their own chapters.
Sharon: Did you collect antique jewelry from the beginning, or did you collect all different kinds of jewelry?
Beth: I have collected antique jewelry for the past 25 years. Before that, I wouldn’t call myself a collector; I’d call myself a person who wore jewelry I liked, and most of that was by modern jewelers. When I started collecting antique, like most people, I started with the Victorian era. It’s easier to understand than the Roman period, which is the first period, and the aesthetic period, which is more fun. When Queen Elizabeth goes into mourning, it’s very dark; it’s very black. It’s called the grand period. It’s also where the archaeological revival period comes into play. I think all the things people are redoing today, the crescent moons and swallows and snakes—her engagement ring was a snake ring—I think are pieces with meaning. All those pieces from the Victorian period have meanings that align with flowers. All the different floral motifs have meaning. Those were easy to collect, you could understand them, and they were pretty. So, that’s what I started collecting.
Then I went into the Georgian period, not so much the earrings, but the rings. I love Georgian rings. I have a whole collection of Georgian rings. It sits in a safety deposit box. You can’t wash your hands with Georgian rings because there’s a closed-back setting. During the pandemic, washing your hands so much, you cannot hold them.
I think you asked me if I have different parameters when I collect antique jewelry compared to modern jewelry, and yes, there are parameters for me. I don’t really collect modern jewelry. I buy what I like from modern jewelers, from different designers. Yes, I probably have one, two or three pieces from a collection because I like their design aesthetic. If it’s wearable, if it's versatile, if it’s made well and goes along with my style, I will buy modern jewelry, but I buy antique jewelry mostly for the character and the provenance. I tend to like jewelry that will appreciate with time, which most antique jewelry will, but also for the authenticity, the rarity and the museum quality of it. I also like sentimental jewelry the best. I tend to stick with those or jewelry with symbolism and meaning.
Sharon: You must have dealers who run the other way when they see you coming because you know so much.
Beth: Actually, the dealers love that because they don’t have to explain it to you. You just pick up a piece and you’ll ask some questions, but people that don’t know anything ask way more questions than I will. Quite frankly, antique dealers and people that own antique stores love talking about jewelry. That’s why they’re in antique jewelry. They love talking about the age and what it is, if they’re honest and honorable like the people in my book.
Sharon: I was reading about how there are so many different definitions of collectors. Somebody in the book, I can’t remember who it was, had a longer version explaining who has a collection versus who’s a collector. There are so many different definitions.
Beth: I don’t think it was a definition between who’s a collector and who has a collection. I think there are different types of collectors. One type of collector might collect only for historical reasons and never wear it, like art for art’s sake. Other people will combine and collect some things for historic importance. For example, I have some pieces I know are historical and really representative of the time period. I don’t wear those pieces that much because I want them in perfect condition. That’s kind of for art’s sake, but mostly I don’t believe you should keep your jewelry in a safe or a safety deposit box. Now, those pieces are in a safety deposit box for that reason.
Then there are collectors that only collect a certain period, like only the Georgian period or only the Victorian period. I’m a collector of different periods. I love Art Deco line bracelets with the different cuts of stone. I love the lacey feeling of Edwardian jewelry. I love Georgian rings. I love sentimental jewelry. So, I’m a multi-collector of pieces. Then there are collectors who want to wear their jewelry, so they only collect pieces they can wear every day. I don’t think it’s collection versus collector; I think it’s the type of collector, and there are many types.
Sharon: When you said Georgian, that’s my first thought. I have a couple pieces of Georgian, which are so delicate. I just couldn’t wear them. A Georgian ring, as you’re talking about, you can’t wear it.
Beth: You can wear it once in a while. You have to be very careful. Know how you can wear it and that you cannot get it wet. I’ve gone to shows where I’ve worn my Georgian rings. I put a bolt ring on a necklace and stuck it inside so when I washed my hands, I put the rings on the bolt ring so I didn’t leave it on the sink. That’s what I’ve always been worried about. You have to take it off to wash.
Sharon: That’s a good way to do it. I hadn’t thought about that. When does somebody cross over from being an enthusiast, which I consider myself? You might say I have a lot, but I’ve never discovered what I want to collect. I like bracelets, but I don’t collect them. How do you cross over?
Beth: I don’t know exactly how you cross over. I have two favorite stones, moonstones and rubies, I think because I’m a hopeful romantic. Moonstones are also lucky. They have a lot of meanings, and I love the fact that they change the light. A good moonstone will change the light. It’s just magical. Rubies are all about passion, and I love the two together. They’re beautiful mixed together, and I can enjoy antique jewelry or modern jewelry. Anyway, one of my first pieces was one of those slag moonstone necklaces from the Victorian period because I love moonstones.
The second was a turquoise forget-me-not ring. Forget-me-nots have two different meanings. They mean “remember me” from the giver to the wearer, or in mourning jewelry that’s all black, they mean the remembrance of somebody that’s gone. Mine was a more of a lover’s token. I also have a passion for hearts if they’re designed well. Not like holiday hearts; more like a double heart with a bowtie. That was a ring I bought from a dealer. It was a Burmese ruby and an old mine cut diamond tied together with a bowtie, which means two hearts together tied as one. Finding out the meaning of these things is wonderful.
I worked for a dealer at one of her shows, and she said to me, “You don’t have to own everything you think is pretty. You can just look at it and think it’s pretty. You don’t have to own it just because you think it’s beautiful.” So, I became more selective of what I was going to own, not just because it was pretty. Also having private clients and knowing what they like, I started to buy things to resell, so then I could own them and think they were pretty and then resell them. I didn’t keep them for my own collection.
But I think it’s a very fine line between being a jewelry enthusiast and being a collector and the type of collector you are. Like I said, I collect from different time periods. One time period I didn’t collect from was the Art Nouveau period, except for some pieces that were plique-à-jour enamel that had romantic sayings because it goes along with sentimental jewelry. I thought it wasn’t very wearable until I helped Macklowe Gallery and Peter Schaffer and realized there were different ways to wear them. It was a really good learning experience.
Sharon: I can see why. What do you look for? You say you became more selective. What do you look for?
Beth: Like I mentioned before, authenticity, verity. I don’t see it everywhere. There are Victorian pieces that were made during the Industrial Revolution that you can find. They’re either exactly the same piece or pieces that are like it that were made by the same maker. You can find the same snake ring by the same manufacturer again and again, even if it’s a little bit different. I try and find the snake ring you can’t find everywhere. I have five different snake rings. Two of them you can find in different places, I think, but I love them. I kept them because those are the rings you can wear every day.
Sharon: As your knowledge and your collection, whatever you want to call it, has grown, do you think you curate it more in a sense?
Beth: Yes, I do. I think it’s been curated now to be very sentimental, very meaningful. I also love different styles of chains and charms, so I love creating charm necklaces that have different meanings. One will be the travel charm necklace; one will be the love lock and protection necklace; one will be only the protection necklace. When I collect interesting charms, I’ll make different necklaces out of them. They’ll all be on different chains so I don’t have to keep changing it around.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being here today.
Beth: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Hopefully I answered all your questions.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Beth Bernstein
Beth Bernstein is a jewelry historian, jewelry expert and collector of period and modern jewels—a purveyor of all things sparkly. She has a romance going on with the legend, language and sentiment behind the pieces. Her love for the story has inspired Beth to pen four books, with a fifth one in the works, and to spend the past twenty years as an editor and writer on the subject of jewels-old and new. She is a die-hard jewelry fan, so much so that she has designed her own collection throughout the 90s and continues to create bespoke jewels and work with private clients to procure antique and vintage jewelry
She owns a comprehensive consulting agency Plan B which provides a roster of services in multiple facets of the jewelry industry. These include building, launching and evolving designer brands and retail brick & mortar/online shops and curating designer shows and private collections.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Diving into centuries of antique jewelry can be intimidating for even the biggest jewelry lover, but Beth Bernstein is proof that anyone can find their niche in jewelry history. A collector of sentimental jewelry across several periods, Beth is a jewelry consultant and author of “The Modern Guide to Antique Jewelry.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how antique jewelry periods are defined; what make a collector a collector; and how to keep antique jewelry in good condition without putting it away forever in a safe. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today my guest is jewelry author, journalist, historian and consultant Beth Bernstein. She is the author of several books including “If These Jewels Could Talk,” “My Charmed Life,” “Jewelry’s Shining Stars” and the recent and very readable “The Modern Guide to Antique Jewelry.” We will hear more about her jewelry journey today. Beth, welcome.
Beth: Hi. So nice to be here.
Sharon: It’s great to have you. Beth, can you tell us a little bit about your jewelry journey? Did you like jewelry when you were young?
Beth: Oh, yes. My favorite thing was to wear a tiara. Most young girls, I would say, think they’re princesses, but I have a cute little story to tell. I had my appendix out when I was six, which is really young to have your appendix out. For some reason, they made me a Frankenstein scar. I hated the scar. Back then, they kept you in the hospital for two weeks. It really was the most horrible scar, so my mom wanted to make me feel like I was beautiful. Back then, Bloomingdale’s in New York was the store you went to. So, we go to Bloomingdale’s—I always had dime-store tiaras, the plastic rhinestone tiaras—and in the window I see this tiara-like headband dripping with Swarovski crystals. Later I found out my mom described it as the most ostentatious headpiece or even worse than that.
Anyway, we go in. I’m l like, “I want that. I want that.” So, we go into the store, and she pulls over the salesperson. I didn’t know this at that time, but I heard the story later on. She said, “Bring her out a lot of jewels. I’ll make up a story about this one, but bring her out something for her age, like a little tiara-like headband thing.” She said to me, “I have to tell you something the salesgirl just told me. The tiara you love is reserved for a duchess from a faraway land.” I went, “Oh, my god, I have such good taste,” and she said, “You have royal taste, right?” From then on, I believed I had royal taste, and I got a pretty seed pearl headband, quite advanced for my age.
I’ve loved jewelry ever since I was young. My mom wasn’t a big jewelry fan, but my grandmother was. My grandparents didn’t have a lot of money, but she saved, and she’d go to secondhand stores. I think they were like pawn shops. She’d find these gorgeous Art Deco jewelry there, and she’d get them for a great price. She had some faux and real. I would go over to her house, and she’d let me stay up way past when my mother would let me stay up, and we would watch a Late Movie. Most people don’t remember the Late Movie, but it had movies like To Catch a Thief and Breakfast at Tiffany’s, and even melodramas like Madame X and Back Street. I would watch all these wonderful movies, Marlene Dietrich movies, and I loved the jewelry. So, we’d dress up in jewelry while we were watching the movies. She’d pour ginger ale in champagne glasses, and we’d drink like we were drinking champagne. The next day we’d go out and buy the jewelry at Woolworths, the five and dime, like we saw in the movies, but for 10 cents. It was all plastic and rhinestone jewelry. It was a lot of fun. So, yeah, I’ve always loved jewelry.
Sharon: Would you say that’s why you started liking jewelry? Because of the tiara and dressing up with your grandmother?
Beth: Yeah, and the movies. I was always very into movies, which is why I wrote “If These Jewels Could Talk.” It connects the celebrities in the movies to the back stories. I’m as much of a jewelry geek as I am a movie geek. I think it was the fun and the glamor of it as a kid. I’ll be very honest; it was at a time when I was probably eleven and my parents started talking about divorce. They got divorced when I was 13. So, it was a time in my life when I needed something to escape from all of that. It was a good escape to get into the glamor of those old movies and the jewelry. When I was six, having my appendix out and having that horrible scar, putting that thing on my head actually did make me feel pretty and like a duchess from a faraway land. I did start believing I had royal taste.
Sharon: That’s funny. I’ve heard several people say they liked tiaras when they were younger. I’m not sure I knew what a tiara was then. As you got older, did your education bring you to jewelry?
Beth: Not really, because I was an English major and a psychology minor. Basically, I was writing poetry and short stories, wanting to be the great American novelist and poetess. I was doing really well in school. I was going to Boston University. I had some poetry and short stories published, and I was editor of the literary journal. My father owned textile mills in Italy and my mother, when she went back to work after my parents got divorced, became a senior vice president of a huge sportswear company. There were fashion and textiles in my blood. So, I was going to school, and my father said, “I’m not going to support you while you’re a starving writer trying to write poetry or a novel. Write about what you know. Write about fashion.” I said, “Absolutely not,” even though I love fashion. But then I did start writing about fashion.
My first story was actually for McCall’s magazine about rust-proofing your car, because I was a non-fiction assistant editor. I got turned down from Condé Nast and Hearst because I didn’t type enough words a minute. I was typing on a regular typewriter, and I was just under. But McCall’s didn’t give you a typing test, so that was my first job. After McCall’s magazine, I started working as a freelancer. I wrote about fashion. I also styled fashion shoots, but my favorite thing to style was jewelry and, for some reason, shoes. When I went to the big houses in New York, like Carolina Herrera and Oscar de la Renta and Donna Karan, I loved to see what jewelry they were going to sell with their collections. Eventually, I continued to write about fashion for a bunch of magazines.
Then, all of a sudden, I came up with an idea for a jewelry collection. Prior to that, I also became a wardrobe stylist for TV. I styled for MTV, Showtime, Comedy Central, all the cable channels. While I was doing that, because of all my contacts in jewelry through styling and by writing about jewelry and fashion, I had a sort of a collection. So, I knew who to go to to put the collection together. I went to this one company where I was very good friends with the owner, and he said, “Oh yeah, it’s a great idea. I think it would sell great at Henri Bendel.” This was when Henri Bendel was really cool. So, I thought it would be a collection for Bendel. He helped me put it together, because I didn’t know about castings and all that kind of thing. It sold at Bendel. Then a friend of mine, who was an actor and a comedian while I was in wardrobe styling, said, “Why don’t you start your own jewelry company? You have really great ideas,” and I said, “You know what? O.K.” That was how my life went. I was like, “O.K., I’ll go from fashion into wardrobe styling then to jewelry,” because I really did love jewelry.
Sharon: You were designing it, too. Wow!
Beth: Yes, now I’m designing it. I started a small collection, and it sold to over 250 stores. However, I was selling to Barneys New York, Beverly Hills and Chicago and Barneys Japan, but that was Barneys first Chapter 11. They owed me a ton of money, and I didn’t know how I was going to produce for the other stores. So, long story short, they owed me a ton of money, but they kept us all in the stores and paid us up front to keep going, but we never got the money they owed us. I was really stretched to the limit because I literally wasn’t making any other money.
So, I started writing about jewelry because I knew more about it. Now, I knew about casting and setting and how to do waxes and all that. I wasn’t doing it, but I knew all about that, so I started writing about jewelry for magazines I had worked with and other people in fashion had recommended. I was also very good at revamping magazines, making them more modern and into the future. So, I started writing while I was also designing jewelry. That’s how it all happened.
With Barneys, I got 30 cents on the dollar. Six years later, which is when I finally closed my business—back then, they rarely liked independent designers. There was only so much money to be made. I made so many mistakes with reps. A jewelry designer who was very smart said to me, “The worst thing that could happen to you is not having your own name on a collection,” and I said, “No, the worst thing that could happen is not having a volume, because I’ve been writing all my life.” He said, “So, you have the answer. Go design for these big designers. Get paid well and keep your bylines. Keep writing.” That’s exactly what I did.
Then I decided it was the smaller designers that needed my help. So, I started my own company to help small, independent designers with marketing, merchandising design and writing their press kits, as I was still writing for magazines. I’m answering you before you’re even asking me a question.
Sharon: No, this is free form. Go ahead.
Beth: Basically, while I was doing all these different things, I started to collect antique jewelry. I had this feeling for antique jewelry. I love the idea of old mine cuts and the old rose cut diamonds. I didn’t like a lot of bling or sparkle. I love the meaning behind Victorian jewelry. As I was collecting from the dealers, I was learning little by little. There were a lot of jewelers in New York back then.
Eventually, I picked out a ring in the case at an amazing Madison Avenue shop, and she said, “It’s one of my favorite rings in the case.” She and I had just met, and she’s since passed away. I usually dedicate my books to my mom or my grandmother or both. My mom passed away young, and my grandmother lived until 97. They were the real inspirations in my life, but I dedicated “The Modern Guide to Antique Jewelry” to Hazel Halperin because she taught me so much of what I know.
When I picked out the ring, she said, “It’s a favorite in my case. I do layaways, so you can pay it off.” I’m like, “Great.” Then she said, “Do you want to come work for me?” and I said, “You don’t know me. How do you know you can even trust me?” She said, “I know I can trust you. Every ring you picked out in the case is my best ring. It’s like you have an eye for this.” She gave me books to bring home every weekend to read. I went to work for her on weekends. I was working seven days a week doing writing for magazines, still some consulting work, some custom work, and working for her, learning about antique jewelry on weekends. That really helped me learn how to collect antique jewelry. Through her, I was able to go to the big antique shows and meet other dealers, whom I still know to this day. A lot of them are still alive and are quoted in the book, because I’ve been dealing with them for 25 years. That’s how that came about.
Sharon: Did learning how to collect antique jewelry help you learn how to collect in general, or was it only antique?
Beth: Only antique. Because I designed modern jewelry, I knew what I liked about modern jewelry. With antique, she taught me things to look for, like if something was repurposed, if something was put together, like if the shank was added later than the actual front of the ring. She taught me a lot of different aspects about antique jewelry. She taught me about the time periods and how to identify them. She taught me so much, and the books she had me bring home to read taught me a lot, too. She was a wonderful teacher. She’d always throw in a little story about my life as it was at that time, and how dating would relate to some jewelry stories. She was funny and I just loved her. She really helped.
Sharon: Was she your inspiration? She was an inspiration for the antique jewelry book, but was she an inspiration for your other jewelry books, like “My Charmed Life”?
Beth: Well, “My Charmed Life” isn’t a jewelry book. It’s a memoir. It’s called “My Charmed Life.” Penguin published it in 2012. I’ll tell you about why it’s called “My Charmed Life.” It’s “My Charmed Life” and the subtitle is “Rocky Romances, Precious Family Connections and Searching For a Band of Gold.” I was writing a memoir. It was a bit different because I also wrote first-person essays for women’s magazines on dating, relationships and family. They always had to have some humor, so I knew that anything heartfelt also had to have a bit of humor. If it’s grief, it has to have humor. So, I learned the combination of doing that, and I love writing those kinds of things. So, I was working on a memoir, and I kept hearing the word, “Platform. You need a platform.” I thought, “I have a platform in jewelry, but that’s not going to work with this memoir, so I need to change it up a bit.” So, I connected different pieces.
Every chapter starts with a piece of jewelry. There’s love beads. There’s solitary rings. There’s the Claddagh ring from when I was going out with the Irish guy. There were a lot of different chapters. It was all metaphor for what I was talking about, and that was chapters from a young age up to age 50. It wasn’t really about the pieces of jewelry; it was about what was going in my life and the jewelry related to that. People call it a jewelry book, but it wasn’t. When you start reading it, you’ll realize that it’s really a book about life. It’s universal. It’s about parents divorcing, parents dying young, family relationships, relationships with nieces and nephews, being single when your younger brothers have kids, and all these different things women can relate to. What links do you like more than jewelry? It’s the mosaic ashtray you make for mom in day camp that she still kept, or when she got divorced, how she traded in her Jackie O. pearls for love beads, which were my love beads. She was wearing my love beads because she was a young mom who got divorced. It was the 70s and she wanted to be cool. So, it was all about that. That was the first book.
The second book was about emerging modern jewelers who I got to know from consulting and writing about them. I wrote about 38 designers who I thought really had it. These days, the market is saturated with modern designers. Stephen Webster was an amazing designer. I thought, “Who can write the forward for this book?” I went to Stephen because we were friends, and they knew he’d do a great job because he was once an emerging designer himself. He was funny, and he had all that heartfelt humor. He was a bench jeweler. He wrote a great forward. He said, “You’re going to have to really fix this up,” and all I had to do was fix one word that I didn’t think was right because it was very British, and I didn’t think everyone would understand. Stephen had to fix one word. It was such a great book.
The next book was “If These Jewels Could Talk: The Legends Behind Celebrity Gems.” That was about the stories behind celebrity jewelry and celebrity jewelry houses, like Van Cleef & Arpels, who made the jewelry for celebrities and films, and how the jewelry helped character development. I was very into the films, as I said. One of my friends said, “You wanted to write that book 20 years ago.” I said, “Yeah, I did,” because of my geekiness about film and because I could remember every line in certain films I loved.
I learned more about who owned the jewelry as I was writing the book. Back then, a lot of the big stars like Marlene Dietrich and Grace Kelly—when she was Grace Kelly and before she was princess of Monaco—wore their own jewelry. Joan Crawford wore all of her own jewelry in films. Elizabeth Taylor wore her own jewelry in certain films. When it came to awards shows, when they were televised, they wore their own jewelry. It was really interesting. I loved writing that book as well.
And then here we are with “The Modern Guide to Antique Jewelry.” I’m not only writing a book about antique jewelry, but I think—once again, I’m going on without you asking me a question.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Laryssa Wirstiuk
Laryssa Wirstiuk is the founder and creative director of Joy Joya. She’s passionate about helping jewelry entrepreneurs tell impactful stories about their brands and products, so they can reach their target customers.
Laryssa is also the author of Jewelry Marketing Joy: An Approachable Introduction to Marketing Your Jewelry Brand and the host of the Joy Joya Jewelry Marketing Podcast. She has presented at a number of industry conferences and has appeared as a guest on webinars and at other digital events, speaking on the subject of marketing for jewelry brands.
Many people don’t realize that Laryssa has academic training in creative writing; one of her first jobs after graduate school was as an adjunct instructor at Rutgers University, where she taught creative writing for five years.
She never abandoned her passion for teaching and strives to educate as many people as she can about jewelry marketing. She believes that knowledge about marketing is the prerequisite to success in business.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
How do independent makers and jewelers stand out in an incredibly saturated market? It’s not by using the same marketing strategy as everyone else. That’s the motto at Joy Joya, a digital marketing agency for jewelry brands founded by Laryssa Wirstiuk. Laryssa joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why digital marketing is necessary for jewelry brands; why branded content should be more than just a sales pitch; and why brands may want to rethink their focus on PR. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Laryssa Wirstiuk. She is the founder and creative director of Joy Joya, a digital marketing agency for jewelry brands. She’s also the host of the Joy Joya Marketing Podcast and has recently started a second podcast. We’ll hear all about her on Jewelry Journey today. Laryssa, welcome to the program.
Laryssa: Sharon, thanks so much for having me. I’m excited to be on your podcast.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you. As I was reading the intro, it occurred to me—I’ve asked myself this many times, but never you—do you have a Spanish background? Joy Joya sounds Spanish to me. What is that?
Laryssa: I don’t personally have a Spanish background. I’m actually Ukrainian, so totally different. But I’m super passionate about Spanish culture and studied the language for a long time. That is actually where the name for my business came from. So, you are right.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’m trying to think—there was a big jewelry show I went to in Barcelona a few years ago. I think it’s Joya. So, I was wondering about that.
Can you tell us a little about your jewelry journey? Tell us how you got to when you are now.
Laryssa: Sure. It kind of makes no sense, but I’ll try to keep it brief and straightforward. My training and background actually have nothing to do with jewelry at all. I went to school for creative writing, and I started my career in marketing as well as teaching writing. My background was always from this communications standpoint. Always, though, I was super passionate about jewelry. Apart from work, it was something I always loved looking at. Of course, when I was a broke college student and just starting my career, I couldn’t purchase a lot of jewelry, but I loved looking at it. I just had this passion, and it kept poking me in the back for many years, saying, “Why aren’t you doing more with this?”
I had a moment in my marketing and writing career where I was really unhappy in the industries I had been working in. I had a job in healthcare marketing. I dabbled a little bit in technology marketing, education marketing. Those are all great industries, but I was never really passionate about any of them personally. Still, in the back of my head I was like, “Jewelry, jewelry, jewelry.” So, I randomly decided one day—it corresponded with me moving from New Jersey to California. I was overhauling my life in that way, and I wrote on a napkin, “I’m going to move to Los Angeles and continue doing marketing, but I’m going to focus on jewelry.” I just decided that one day.
Sharon: Wow! Were you teaching before that?
Laryssa: I was also teaching, yes. As a millennial, I finished grad school during the 2008-2009 recession, and I entered a job market that was completely messed up. Like many people my age, I had 20 jobs. I was doing all the things. I was like, “Freelance this, freelance that,” teaching, marketing, all of this stuff for many years. I decided I wanted to take all of this experience and see what I could do with it in the jewelry industry.
Before I moved to California—because as you can imagine, it was a big transition moving across the country—I took a few months to live with my parents to save up a little money and try to really figure out what I was doing. I took a job working at a jewelry store, and that’s where I started to learn the language of the customer experience. I got training in selling engagement rings and diamond jewelry. It really confirmed for me that, up to that point, jewelry had been a casual hobby and interest, and now I was like, “I really love this industry.” I fell in love with it. It made me feel confident about this thing I wrote on a little napkin about what I was going to do next.
Sharon: What did you fall in love with?
Laryssa: I loved the product in general. Then it was having that experience of working in the store and helping people get their engagement ring or find the perfect gift for Christmas or Mother’s Day. I was helping people shop and understanding the emotional resonance of what jewelry means to people. I thought that was all so magical.
Sharon: You told me you worked in social. You moved into digital and social marketing in other fields and then segued into jewelry. Do I have that right?
Laryssa: Yes. Even though I’ve been focused on jewelry marketing for six years, my marketing career spans back to 2010 because prior to that, I was working in other industries.
Sharon: How did you get into social when it comes to the other industries and jewelry? It still has so much potential in jewelry.
Laryssa: Social media, you mean?
Sharon: Yeah. I should say digital. I went back and forth between digital and social, but go ahead.
Laryssa: That’s another layer of this, talking about timing and when I finished school and all the changes that were happening in the economy. That 2009-2010 timeframe was when social media became a thing. I think Twitter had launched one or two years prior to that. Instagram was just starting out. Facebook, maybe three or four years before that. It was so new, and I was intrigued by that. So, I was like, “Whoa, what is this? We can make friends and interact with people in all parts of the world based on our interests.” At that time, social media was truly social, not so much in the way it is now, but it was a place to connect. I even had a blog I wrote about social media because I loved it and was so interested in it. It was a natural passion of mine. It was something I was exploring not just in my work, but also after hours. After dinner, I would work on my blog about marketing because I was so interested in it.
Sharon: How did you segue to social or digital in jewelry from commercial, let’s say?
Laryssa: I don’t know. I don’t have a specific step-by-step way I did that. I think it just felt like a natural fit for me. I don’t really know how to explain it.
Sharon: What made you start your podcast? How did you start it? Everybody has a podcast today. It’s ridiculous.
Laryssa: I started my podcast in 2018. So, I’ve had it for like four years now.
Sharon: It’s a long time in podcast years today.
Laryssa: I know. Going back to digital and content, the content creation and distribution and social part, they’re natural passions of mine. Any way I can share myself through content, I want to be doing that. For me, podcasting felt like—I don’t want to say the easy way, but it felt low-entry. I could sit at home and do it, and as long as I learned the tools, I could upload it every week or however often. I also felt like I had a lot to share about certain things, primarily in this industry. Most people are communicating on Instagram, for example, and I didn’t feel like Instagram was giving me the space to fully expand upon the things I wanted to share.
I’m a pretty introverted person, which I think surprises a lot of people because I have so much to say and I’m on camera all the time sharing videos. But I think when I’m in conversation, especially in group settings, I tend to be the one that hangs back a little bit. I’m very quiet and I’m listening. But I feel that when I get on my podcast, it’s my time to shine. I can talk and feel very comfortable in that medium, for some reason.
Sharon: When you started your podcast, what did you want to accomplish jewelry-wise? Did you have an idea?
Laryssa: Sure. I was still very new to the industry at that point, and as I’m sure you know, Sharon, this is an industry that’s very multigenerational. People don’t usually just hop into it. They typically are in it because their families have been in it, or they’ve been in it for many, many years. As a newcomer to the industry, I felt that I needed to prove myself in some way. I felt that the podcast would give me a chance to show people that I am passionate about this industry, that I care and I have something to offer. It was my way of offering that.
Sharon: Did you immediately come up with Joy Joya because you liked jewelry so much? How did that happen?
Laryssa: It was the first name I came up with when I officially started my business in 2016. I don’t remember how I came up with it, but I did like the play on words, the fact that “joya” means jewel in Spanish. I liked that the word “joy” is in there, like the English word joy. It felt natural to me because I think marketing and the topics I talk about can be overwhelming and challenging for a lot of people. Everyone wants to be better at marketing and everyone struggles over that, but I wanted to come to it in a fun, playful, approachable way. The name felt like it expressed that for me.
Sharon: I think you’re right in that it does express it, but there is so much to learn, especially for jewelers who started before Covid. I remember so many people saying, “What do I need online for?” and then being shocked when it actually brought some return.
Laryssa: It’s so true.
Sharon: Your podcast focuses on social, digital, that sort of thing, right?
Laryssa: Yes, primarily digital marketing, but I do occasionally touch on more old-school topics. I just did an episode on direct mail, for example. I’ve covered other, tangential marketing-related things, but typically I’m focused on digital marketing.
Sharon: There’s so much digitally, it could go on for years and years. So, the new podcast, is it Gold Mine?
Laryssa: The Gold Mine is a new segment of my current podcast, but I do have an actual new podcast called Success with Jewelry. It is a cohosted podcast with my partner, Liz Kantner. Liz is a social media marketing expert for the jewelry industry. She works primarily with makers, like metalsmiths and indie jewelry designers. Some consider us to be competitors, but we do service slightly different parts of the industry and have our own strengths.
Earlier this year, we randomly decided to start meeting once a week as friends on Zoom. We would talk about our clients and business challenges we were having, what’s going on in the industry, just connecting and trying to have community with each other. In those conversations, it evolved into us wanting to offer products or services together. We started earlier this year with a webinar series called Success with Jewelry. We had a pretty good showing for that. People would come to our Zoom presentations, and we would talk about various topics in marketing.
More recently, we decided to start this new podcast. Like me, Liz also feels like she has so much to say and offer, but she’s primarily on Instagram and feels very limited by that. I think she sees all the fun I’m having with my podcast and how much I’m able to share and communicate. So, I said, “Hey, let’s try to do this together and invite people into our private conversations to make others feel like they’re not alone in the business challenges they’re having, so they feel a sense of community.” It was also just for entertainment because we like to banter and have fun. So, that’s what we’re doing.
Sharon: I do this weekly. How regularly do you sit down to do your podcast? You also sit with Liz and do a separate podcast?
Laryssa: I do my own podcast twice a week and I do a podcast with Liz once a week.
Sharon: Twice a week. That’s a lot.
Laryssa: It is a lot.
Sharon: Why should jewelers consider digital marketing or social networking? What does it buy them? I see a lot of jewelers at shows. What does it buy them outside of that?
Laryssa: It gives them more resonance. I’m going to call it resonance because if you interact with someone in person, of course that is an amazing experience. There is nothing that beats an in-person interaction. But as we all know, the marketplace is super crowded. We are so distracted. We are bombarded by a million messages all the time. The moment you leave that in-person interaction, then what? Maybe you have a business card or some other printed material, but if that jewelry brand has a digital presence, there’s an opportunity for them to continue connecting with that person in a digital space, whether that’s through email marketing, through their social media posts, through their website, so the connection isn’t limited to that in-person experience.
Sharon: Do indie makers and jewelers, people already up and running, call you and say, “Hey, I’m lost”? What do they call you and say?
Laryssa: Most people who reach out to me have some level of digital marketing going on, and they are frustrated with it, they’re not sure if they’re doing it right, they need it to be optimized, or they need to know what the other options are. They’ve already tried it themselves a little bit. I would say that’s primarily the type of people who reach out to me. I occasionally get people who are starting from scratch, but that happens more rarely.
Sharon: Do they say, “I have a website. I’m trying to redo it, and I don’t know how to make it up to date”? What do they do?
Laryssa: That could be one scenario, that they need their e-commerce website to be more effective. A lot of times what happens is the different digital marketing touchpoints—so, let’s say social media, email, the website—there are a lot of inconsistencies or disconnects between these things. What I’m good at is finding how to make all these things work together and be like a well-oiled machine instead of having these random bits and pieces everywhere.
Sharon: So, branding and rebranding is one of your strengths?
Laryssa: Yes, definitely. It’s something I definitely work on with clients.
Sharon: How would you describe a brand when it comes to jewelry, when it comes to engagement rings and Christmas gifts and anniversary gifts? How would you describe it?
Laryssa: How would I describe a brand?
Sharon: Yeah.
Laryssa: It’s so individual to the business. I don’t know if there’s one way to tackle it. In this jewelry industry we’re in, there’s unfortunately so much same-same.
Sharon: Yes, there is.
Laryssa: It’s really a shame. I think everyone has something unique, but either they’re afraid to step into that uniqueness, or they just don’t know how. They’re too close to it, so they can’t see what the unique thing is. I’m always trying to challenge businesses in this industry, not just people who work with me directly, but through my podcasts, like, “Come on. Let’s find the thing that makes you unique, because we don’t need any more of the same thing. I can guarantee you that. There’s already too much of the same thing.” It’s a little bit of a disease in this industry.
Sharon: I know you’re in Orange County, California. I’m in Los Angeles. Sometimes I think if I were in New York, it might be different or easier because you’d be in the center of things. You’d have more access. Do you find that, or do you think that?
Laryssa: To be in the center of things for a brand?
Sharon: Or to be in New York. Do you feel like sometimes you should be elsewhere?
Laryssa: No. I’m in Glendale, actually. I’m not in Orange County. I am pretty central to the downtown L.A. jewelry scene. I do have a lot of clients in New York, and I don’t feel like not being there is an obstacle at all. I think in this world now, especially post- Covid, location is so irrelevant.
Sharon: That’s true. How about on the West Coast? There’s so much going on on the East Coast when you talk about conferences and jewelry things. On the West Coast, it’s hard to find things besides bling if you’re trying to find anything different.
Laryssa: That’s true. Yes, because in New York, there’s—New York City Jewelry Week is coming up. We just had trade shows in August. For me as a service provider, the trade shows are more like I just want to go and see. For me as a service provider, I find the people who attend those trade shows are engaged in trade, and they don’t want to talk about anything else. That’s an important part of the industry. So, you guys do that, and then when you realize it’s not working, you can come talk to me.
Sharon: No, I understand. Maybe it’s me. It just seems that there’s a lot less on this coast than there is on the other coast.
Laryssa: Yeah, that’s true.
Sharon: I love jewelry, but every time I go to a conference, it’s been on the East Coast. I’ve been fortunate that I could go. That’s one of the reasons I started the podcast. I felt like, “What about the person in Iowa or Idaho? They want to know about what you’re saying, right?”
Laryssa: Yeah, definitely. What’s your favorite New York City show?
Sharon: I go to more conferences, more educational. There’s ASJRA. It’s been in Chicago; it’s been in New York. In the last few years, it’s been online. I also like Art Jewelry Forum. They have different things. They do have it here, too. You speak on a lot of panels. You’ve spoken at JCK, AGS. Tell us what those mean and what they are.
Laryssa: Yes, recently I was speaking at JCK. That is pretty much the biggest tradeshow, at least here in North America. It happens in Las Vegas every year. They do have an educational aspect to that conference, but like I mentioned before, I think people’s mindsets are more like they’re there to do actual trade.
Sharon: Yes, to sell or to do business.
Laryssa: So, it’s me just going to pal around and see people I know primarily.
Sharon: There’s a lot to be said for that. There’s a lot to be said for the networking that takes place there. What topics are you talking about?
Laryssa: Yes. This year at JCK, I was on a panel called “The Fringe of Marketing.” We were talking about up-and-coming marketing platforms and tactics that people in the audience maybe wouldn’t be as familiar with.
Sharon: What would you say those are? Instagram, yes. TikTok?
Laryssa: Yeah, we spent a lot of time talking about TikTok. Also, the Metaverse and NFTs and things like that.
Sharon: NFTs? What does that stand for?
Laryssa: Non-fungible tokens.
Sharon: I was telling somebody this morning that you wake up in the morning and say, “O.K., today’s the day I’m going to learn more about Instagram or TikTok,” and then you say, “Why?” because 10 minutes is going to change it all. Even with Instagram, it seems like it’s gotten so commercial as opposed to what it was before, where a jeweler could really show their stuff.
Laryssa: It’s hard to keep up with. There’s something new every week, honestly.
Sharon: I bet there is. I’m laughing; my husband is a TikTok addict. My sister said to me, “Isn’t that for kids?” I said, “Yeah.” I know it’s for adults too, but it’s morphed a lot.
So, what are the top two points you want to make when you talk about jewelry?
Laryssa: Jewelry marketing?
Sharon: Yeah.
Laryssa: I think more people need to be leaning into creating valuable content. I’m just making up a number, but 99% of jewelry businesses are too focused on themselves, the “Me, me, me. Look what I have. Look at me. My stuff is pretty. This is what I can offer you,” and not as focused on the customer and providing value. What does the customer want? What can you give them? How can you make their lives better? And content is a great way to do that. Blog posts, video content, e-books, style guides, things that educate, inform, entertain, inspire the customer, rather than just being an infinite sales pitch for your sparkly thing. That is the primary point I would like to make.
My second point is that I think most of the industry thinks about marketing in a—I don’t want to say old-school or traditional way, because it’s not really, but they’re very focused on PR. How can I get on the celebrity? How can I get in the magazine? A lot of them also lean into social media and advertising. Those are the primary three things that almost every jewelry brand does with their marketing and outreach strategy. But if everyone’s doing the same thing and most people’s products look kind of the same, I don’t know what you’re hoping to accomplish there.
Sharon: Do you have to persuade a lot of jewelers? Do you find a lot of resistance?
Laryssa: To what I’m saying?
Sharon: Yeah.
Laryssa: I don’t think it’s for everyone, honestly. There are a million marketing agencies out there that will do that. They can go do that, and they can continue seeing the same results they’re seeing, but I think if someone is truly ready to try a different way or think differently about their approach, I’m the person for them.
Sharon: The things you said, blogs and style books, do you do all of that?
Laryssa: Yes.
Sharon: You must be well-positioned to do that. You’ve written some books, right?
Laryssa: I have written a book for my business and another unrelated fiction book.
Sharon: You just want to write, right?
Laryssa: Yes, I am a writer at heart. I studied it. I used to teach writing. It is, to me, the easiest and most natural way to communicate.
Sharon: And it comes in very handy with jewelry. Laryssa, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s been great to have you. I wish you the best with your business.
Laryssa: Thanks, Sharon. I really appreciate chatting with you. I love your podcast, and it was so fun to have you interview me.
Sharon: We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Emily Waterfall
Based in Los Angeles, Emily Waterfall is the Director of the Jewelry Department for Bonhams Auction House. With over 16 years of experience, Emily is responsible for business-getting, client development, appraisals and sourcing property for jewelry sales in Los Angeles and in New York.
Emily began her career as an intern in London at an auction house where she caught her first glance of exquisite things in 2004. Once completing her internship, she worked in New York as a jewelry cataloguer for a leading international auction house for seven years working on several important jewelry auctions including the jewels of Kelly and Calvin Klein, Eunice Gardiner, Lucia Moreira Salles and others. Prior to joining Bonhams, Emily worked for a prominent jewelry buying firm based in Atlanta, GA from 2012 to 2018.
A native of San Diego, CA, Emily graduated with an undergraduate degree in Art History from Brigham Young University and has completed courses at the Gemological Institute of America and published articles in the American Society of Jewelry Historians newsletters.
Additional Resources:
Photos are available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Auctions can seem intimidating to first-time buyers, but they are the best way to get a deal on a true, one-of-a-kind treasure, and auction house staff, like Emily Waterfall, Head of the Jewelry Department at Bonhams Los Angeles, are there to help buyers through the process. Emily joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what to expect at Bonhams’ upcoming auction of the Jill and Byron Crawford collection of artist jewelry; the most impressive pieces she’s seen during her career; and how collectors can enter the world of auctions confidently. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please head to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Emily Waterfall, who is head of the jewelry department in the L.A. office of the auction house Bonhams. Welcome back.
Tell us more about this auction coming up. You’re previewing online. How do you handle everything? If you’re the auctioneer, how do you handle it when—this is one reason I’m a little frightened by auctions, because there’s the bid on the line and there’s yours, and there are about five different people from all over the world. How do you handle it? Could I have a chance, basically, is the question.
Emily: Absolutely. There are various ways to bid. You can register a bid online. You can bid on our app. Maybe you have a busy day and you’re running around. You can register to bid on the telephone on the Bonhams website, or you can leave an absentee bid. I get carried away at auctions. I’ll do an absentee bid when I want to put myself on a budget and say I will not spend above this, regardless. That’s a fantastic way. Or come and bid in person.
Nowadays, we are very digital. Most people are bidding online. The days of auctions being full and everyone dressed to the nines are kind of over. Now, we’re more online based. I’ll be auctioneering, and I’ll have bids from absentee bidders; I’ll have telephone bidders; but I see a lot of activity online. It’s funny to me, because I always say when I’m auctioneering, “I see you out there.” I don’t see them, but I know they’re online, and I want to give them presence because they’re just as important as any bidder in the room. I hope that explains that.
Sharon: Yeah. You say, “I see you out there.” Do you have a computer? Is everybody on a computer, and you can see that this person has bid five times and their name? How does that work?
Emily: Everyone has a paddle number, like you’d have if you were in the room. We see those paddle numbers bidding on a computer screen in front of us, so I can track this person’s bid a few times. Maybe we have a new bidder entering online. It’s fascinating. For me, I love every second of auctioneering. It’s exciting to see who’s going to jump in and bid, and sometimes it’s really nerve-wracking.
Sharon: Do you get flustered? When you say nerve-wracking, do you get flustered?
Emily: Absolutely. There are moments when I feel like my heart is racing. We all make mistakes, so I try to brush those off because it’s a pretty intense moment. We have to give ourselves some grace, but in general, we’re well-trained. We all go through very similar training, and it takes years to perfect the craft of it.
Sharon: What kind of training do you go through to become an auctioneer?
Emily: It depends on your house. Everybody’s different. They have their different styles of training, but you usually go through an intensive training where you just practice auctions over and over and over. You have people come in and observe you. They record you. You can see if you have any weirds ticks or anything like that. It’s an interesting process. Then you’re given an opportunity to start selling, but for short periods of time and just to start practicing. It takes years. It takes years to feel the flow and the energy of it, to know what to anticipate, to know how to engage an audience. We also have to engage them. So, there are a lot of layers to it.
Sharon: If a piece comes up and you know the history, will you say, “It comes from the collection of X, Y, Z, but the history is that they bought it in Mexico 40 years ago”?
Emily: I typically just say which estate it’s from. We like to mention the provenance, but we definitely don’t do anything historical. At that point, everyone who’s bidding has heard me singing its praises, so we just notate the important provenance and that we’re so excited to sell it, and then we go on to sell it.
Sharon: I have a friend who’s really big on getting a deal. I don’t feel so much like that. I feel like you’re getting something one of a kind; there’s not another one. Is it because it’s one of a kind that people should be participating in auctions? I realize dealers sometimes do it for a deal, but why do you think people should participate in auctions?
Emily: There are all types of buyers at auctions. I think it’s just particular to your taste. Absolutely, it’s a great value. I cannot argue that enough. Jewelry at auction is substantially less than retail. We’re determining the market daily, but what I’m covering typically has not been seen on the market for 20 to 40 to hundreds of years. It’s the time to find true treasures. We have a lot of repeat buyers in every sale, and I love to see what they lean towards, what they love and want to buy. It shows me their personalities. We all have a different item that might our eye, right?
Sharon: Right.
Emily: And it’s the hunt of it; it’s the excitement of the auction. I think a lot of different things bring people to auctions, but we’re uncovering property that genuinely has not been on the market. That’s the best part of it.
Sharon: You can do that because people call you and say, “Hey, my grandmother died and she left all this jewelry I have no interest in.” I bet you get a lot of those today.
Emily: I do. I wish I remembered this quote. There’s something about how the new generation foolishly laughs at the past. It’s interesting; there are always amazing collections that the next generation has no interest in. It happens often.
Sharon: That’s true.
Emily: So, our job is to help protect that story, sell it well, promote it as well as we can to help the family. Our job is to help people. It’s funny; a lot of people forget that. Our job is actually to work for the consigners, to help them and make the most amount we can for them.
Sharon: It’s interesting, too, when you say that about the past generations. It’s so amazing to me that people didn’t like Art Deco or Tiffany and were like, “Where’s the garbage can?”
Emily: I think they should adopt me, all of them. I love history. The history of jewelry to me is the most fascinating part of this job. Every generation has its own amazing personality to it, and we have to learn how to appreciate that.
Sharon: How is the history the most fascinating?
Emily: I love the stories of who owned it. I love the stories of how it was acquired. I love the stories of the makers and the periods of time that they were made. Jewelry is hand in hand with cultural events and fashion. Everything has evolved together. Jewelry has not been in a bubble by itself; it’s a reaction to what’s going on globally, and every area has had different events occur.
Jewelry, to me, embodies artistic expression, and I love different periods of expression. Studio jewelry art was amazing when it was coming out because everyone was reacting to boring diamond jewelry. Then again, French Art Deco was very much a reaction, and the amazing results of creative thinking were happening together from poets and artists, interior designers and architects and jewelry. It’s all hand in hand, and that to me is extraordinary.
Sharon: People can look at jewelry and say, “Oh, it’s so dated,” but you can look around the corner, let’s say. Can you see what’s next? Do you identify it? You don’t have to say it, but can you identify what’s next when you look at pieces?
Emily: I can’t find out exactly what’s next, but to me, it’s funny that yellow gold is king right now, whereas 15, 20 years ago, it was all white gold platinum. Again, this is the generation shifting from what their mothers had or what everyone was wearing. Tastes are changing, so it’s always evolving. I think there’s room for all of it. I don’t think anything should be neglected, because anyone who is expressing themselves expresses their view differently. It might be a chunky, 80s Bulgari gold necklace, or it might be a Graff perfect diamond necklace. Everyone has their different view of expression.
Sharon: It’s interesting; there are some pieces I’ll avoid because I remember they were all trying to get rid of it 40 years ago, and now it’s the hottest thing around.
This auction that’s coming up on November do you have a favorite?
Emily: I don’t think I can pick a favorite at all. To me, it’s a great collection across the board. It’s this idea that it’s not about the monetary value of what’s constructed; it’s more about the theory behind it and what was made. I have some pieces by Claire Falkenstein which are really interesting. We have some great Zuni Tunes pieces, which are wonderful, magical, Disney-inspired rings, quite a large collection of those. I’m excited to be selling those, and that in particular I’m going to have my eye on. Then I have Spratling and Pineda which I loved selling. Some Jensen—
Sharon: So, Claire Falkenstein, the artist who did some jewelry.
Emily: Yes.
Sharon: You’re selling some of that. O.K. And then the Disney rings, you said Zuni Tunes?
Emily: Zuni Tunes.
Sharon: Were they made by Disney or by different makers?
Emily: No, this is Native American. This is made by Native Americans selling on the side of the road. These are interesting pieces. We see them on the secondary market. We’ve not had any international auctions, so this is our first attempt, and I’m really excited about them. They have a wonderful collection of Zuni Tunes. So, for any Zuni Tunes collectors out there, please contact me. I’m so excited to sell them.
Sharon: You said William Spratling and Antonio Pineda?
Emily: Yes. I’m just looking at my list now. Los Castillo, Aguilar. It’s quite an amazing collection of Mexican silver. One private collector in particular is a wealth of knowledge. I can’t mention the name. I wish I could, but a very important buyer in that world is now selling their collection with me, and I’m honored to be selling that.
Sharon: Why would somebody sell a collection if they’ve spent years putting it together?
Emily: I think it depends on if we’re wearing it, if it has use to us. They might have moved on. It’s not ours to say. It’s all per collector and where they’re at. Like you were saying, there are some pieces you are willing to say goodbye to. This time, this client is prepared to say goodbye.
Sharon: That’s what I’m talking about with the hidden stuff. You mentioned a person in Orange County, which is not so far away. How do you find out about these things?
Emily: A lot of times people are recommended, which I’m honored by; I love those referrals. A lot of people saw how well we did with the Jill and Byron collection last October, and we are selling some pieces just because of that sale. We were contacted because it did well on an international market.
Sharon: Was that the first international modernist sale, you said?
Emily: It was for us. That was the first sale, and I believe that was the largest single collection to come to markets internationally at any house. It was an extraordinary event. We definitely broke records for certain artists like Betty Cooke. We had great sales for Native American of Laloma and Monongya and Spratling. Across the board, we commanded very high prices for some of those pieces. It was wonderful.
Sharon: As a buyer, I could understand that. If it’s a Spratling, there’s only so much Spratling around. I’m just using that because he’s a known name. You say there’s great value. Is there value because it’s one of a kind? Is it something that a normal person on the ground should consider? What should I consider, and do I have a chance?
Emily: You absolutely have a chance. It just depends on how many people are interested in that one lot. If you’re the only buyer, you’re going to get it at a fantastic price with little competition, or there will be quite a bit of people bidding against you and you need to be prepared to fight for it. Every lot we don’t really know who’s going to be interested and who’s going to bid until the auction starts, but it’s absolutely worth fighting, hands down. My best advice is to be prepared, know what number you’re going to spend, and just go for it. How exciting! It’s a great story to tell when you wear it. You can say, “Oh, I bought this at auction.” It’s a great conversation starter, and jewelry sparks a lot of conversation.
Sharon: I’ve only really looked at auction catalogues and online. Is it something where, if I talk to you or the specialist, you could say, “There’s been a lot of interest in this piece. I’ve had a lot of calls about it,” or “You’re the first person I’ve talked to”?
Emily: We don’t typically talk about interest because obviously we try to keep people’s interest private, but we can say to you the importance of it. We can talk about it. Sometimes they’re not one of a kind. With Spratling, there are several versions of some designs. So, we can speak on that for you.
We can advise you, not necessarily on how much to spend, but what to anticipate. Our job is to be helpful. Our job is to help guide you through it. We can be on the phone with you and cheer you on, be with you, and make sure we don’t let you go over a certain amount. We can be your buddy through that part of it.
Sharon: Is it best to go through Bonhams for an auction, or is it better to bid online? There are usually about five different places.
Emily: We love it when people contact us. We want to be helpful and answer questions you might have. Some people are being honest and just want to bid online, and that’s fantastic. Honestly, there are multiple ways today, but always ask an expert your questions. We definitely don’t want buyer’s remorse. We want to help you through the process and make sure it brings you joy. It should be a great experience.
Sharon: For example, let’s say I won the piece. Then you wrap the piece up and send it out? What do you do?
Emily: It depends on what you’d like to do. You can either pick it up from us at our office, which we love—we love to see what people bought—or we can do shipments. There are all sorts of ways we can make it happen.
Sharon: What do you want to accomplish with the preview at Art Jewelry Forum on October 4? It’s online. What do you want to do?
Emily: I want to express the breadth of all the amazing jewelry we have, let people know about it and discuss certain areas of it that are of interest. It’s letting people know what we have. That’s the most wonderful part of it, speaking to the importance of it. Again, I have an art history background. I know a lot about fine jewelry. I’ve been fortunate enough to have some phenomenal mentors in my crew, but art jewelry, to me, is a new market in terms of international recognition. I think it’s time for it to be considered as valuable. It’s time for it to be on the market on a regular basis. There are buyers all over the world for this, and I’ve seen that first-hand.
Sharon: Because art jewelry means so many different things to different people, are you talking about—is historical art jewelry different than Manfred Bischoff, who’s still alive? What are you talking about?
Emily: It’s across the board. It encompasses quite a large audience, being from different areas geographically, different time periods. I would like to encompass all of it. I would like it to be its own entity for auction and have regular sales and have property coming up for sale, because sometimes they’re hard to find. It’s a little more of a hunt. I would like to have artists that are here and artists of the past. I’d like to encompass all of it.
Sharon: Do you think Bonhams is pursuing art jewelry, in the sense of becoming the house you go to?
Emily: I’d love that, but I realize there’s room for everybody. We tested the market last year. We saw a great response. This year, we already had a Clifford Mexican silver sale. I think we’re just starting to step into the ladder of it and see what it is. I hope it evolves to where people choose Bonhams, absolutely.
Sharon: What is my next step? If I am listening to this, what would the next step be for somebody like me? Do I go online to your site or go online to place a bid? I’ve never done anything like that. What would somebody do?
Emily: Yes, go to Bonhams. The sale will be published online around October 4. So, go on there and just shop. Look and see what you like. Contact us. All our information will be available for you online. See what you like. We aren’t printing catalogues anymore. I’ve noticed that people that are very savvy to jewelry are looking on their phones, their iPads or computers. We’ll have additional shots of the items. We’ll have model shots so you can understand size and scale. From there, you can register to bid. And always ask us, the experts, for that sale. We want to help you.
Sharon: I’m laughing because when you say it’s online, who looks at a computer? I do if I’m at my desk, but I’m on my phone on Instagram. Some of the auction houses promote their auctions on Instagram. It’s the only way you hear about them sometimes.
Emily: Absolutely. Everything’s now really digital, which is great because it gives us more room to reach out to more people. I love looking through attractions. I love looking at different angles of the piece, looking at model shots, reading the descriptions. It’s very enjoyable.
Sharon: I bet it would be. I’m always surprised when there’s only one angle of a piece showed. You’re like, “Where’s the back?”
Emily: For modern studio jewelry, you need to see signatures. The signatures really matter. So do different angles, understanding scale. You want to know how that necklace will fit. You want to understand the scale of a brooch or a ring. You need to see it in proportion. That’s very, very important.
Sharon: Emily, I really appreciate you telling us about all of this today. I will remind everybody that the auction itself is November 10th. It starts Los Angeles time, or does it start New York time?
Emily: Los Angeles time. It starts at 10:00 a.m. Pacific Standard Time.
Sharon: And it goes until everything is sold?
Emily: Yes, until the very end.
Sharon: You have your work cut out for you. Then on October 4, I don’t know about the other previews, but for Art Jewelry Forum, if you go online, you can sign up there. It’s free. Thank you so much for being with us today. We greatly, greatly appreciate it.
Emily: Thank you so much. I loved all your questions today. It was great speaking with you.
Sharon: Thank you so much.
We will have photos posted on the website. Please head to TheJewelryJourney.com to check them out. Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Emily Waterfall
Based in Los Angeles, Emily Waterfall is the Director of the Jewelry Department for Bonhams Auction House. With over 16 years of experience, Emily is responsible for business-getting, client development, appraisals and sourcing property for jewelry sales in Los Angeles and in New York.
Emily began her career as an intern in London at an auction house where she caught her first glance of exquisite things in 2004. Once completing her internship, she worked in New York as a jewelry cataloguer for a leading international auction house for seven years working on several important jewelry auctions including the jewels of Kelly and Calvin Klein, Eunice Gardiner, Lucia Moreira Salles and others. Prior to joining Bonhams, Emily worked for a prominent jewelry buying firm based in Atlanta, GA from 2012 to 2018.
A native of San Diego, CA, Emily graduated with an undergraduate degree in Art History from Brigham Young University and has completed courses at the Gemological Institute of America and published articles in the American Society of Jewelry Historians newsletters.Find One-of-a-Kind
Additional Resources:
Photos are available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Auctions can seem intimidating to first-time buyers, but they are the best way to get a deal on a true, one-of-a-kind treasure, and auction house staff, like Emily Waterfall, Head of the Jewelry Department at Bonhams Los Angeles, are there to help buyers through the process. Emily joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what to expect at Bonhams’ upcoming auction of the Jill and Byron Crawford collection of artist jewelry; the most impressive pieces she’s seen during her career; and how collectors can enter the world of auctions confidently. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the first part of a two-part episode. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it’s released later this week.
Today my guest is Emily Waterfall, who is head of the jewelry department in the L.A. office of the auction house Bonhams. They will be having their second auction of modernist jewelry from the collection of Jill and Byron Crawford. This includes many masters of silver jewelry. We will hear more about this from Emily today and her own jewelry journey. Emily, welcome to the program.
Emily: Thank you for having me.
Sharon: So glad you could be here. Give us an overview of your jewelry journey. Did you like jewelry when you were young? Did your education lead you to this?
Emily: I loved jewelry when I was little. My mom had some fun pieces, in particular a butterfly necklace that I always coveted. It was a simple gold necklace. I remember when she wore it, I would play with it. Since then, she’s gifted it to me, so it’s a very sentimental item for me.
My journey actually began in art history. I studied art history for many years and was given an internship with Sotheby’s in London and moved myself across to the U.K. I worked there for many years and then made my way into the jewelry department where I truly found my calling.
Sharon: So, you weren’t studying in London; you moved to take the internship at Sotheby’s.
Emily: Yes, I was very lucky. A gentleman, who was a scholar of archiving, helped me make my way to the 19th century, which was hilarious because now obviously digital archives are everywhere. When I started, it was the days of cutting and pasting from printed catalogues using glue sticks. My job was to basically archive all the recent sales of any paintings that were important because we didn’t have search engines. We didn’t have those things, so my very first job in the art world was cutting and pasting and gluing.
Sharon: You’re bringing back memories. I remember working with a cartoonist who worked the old-fashioned way, and I thought, “Oh my god, O.K.”
So, did you study at GIA after? In art history, you don’t really study GIA, right?
Emily: I studied at GIA after. I was fortunate enough to do that during my time at Sotheby’s when I was a cataloguer in the department in the New York office. I took my courses then.
Sharon: So, you moved from London back to New York?
Emily: Yes, my visa was about to end, and Sotheby’s offered me a job in New York. So, I moved there and was working in several different departments. I started getting into jewelry and truly found love. I studied a lot of 19th century sculpture, and with jewelry, my art history background just blossomed. I was so excited to see all the pieces I was seeing. As a cataloguer in the jewelry department, every piece we sold went through my desk, so you can imagine the type of education I got. It was extraordinary. It was a very special time in my career.
Sharon: There are a lot of jewelers or people in the jewelry industry who study art history. Jewelry history isn’t really taught, so they study art history and either continue in that or they segue into jewelry.
So, why should I consider Bonhams? If I had art or jewelry to sell, why would I consider Bonhams?
Emily: There’s definitely room for every house in the world. That’s one thing I’ve learned. But in particular at Bonhams, we’ve had exponential growth over the last three years. In Los Angeles, we went from four auctions a year to 13, speaking to the fervor of which we’re growing. We’ve also invested a lot into art jewelry, Mexican silver, and other areas in the international market that weren’t necessarily being addressed.
Seeing a collection, if I’m not enthusiastic about it and I’m not enthusiastic about selling it, I’m doing a disservice to the collection. So, my advice to people is when they’re picking a house, make sure whoever is selling it for you has energy and the fervor to sell it well. That’s what my key is.
Sharon: So, you went from four to 13 auctions?
Emily: Yes.
Sharon: That’s a lot. Are you in charge of most of them? Is that just in jewelry, or is that art and jewelry? What is that?
Emily: That’s just jewelry in Los Angeles.
Sharon: Wow!
Emily: That’s my department. We run 13 auctions a year. It’s pretty exciting.
Sharon: You have to have passion to do something like that.
Emily: Yeah.
Sharon: Would you consider that Bonhams has a modernist bent? If somebody has a modernist collection, should they consider Bonhams?
Emily: Yes, I would say the sale we had last year for Jill and Byron Crawford was a huge success. That was across the board, from modern to Mexican to Scandinavian jewelry artists. We really covered the gamut with that sale and showed what we can accomplish with that.
A lot of what we’re doing is taking in collections, because collections come us. We hunt for them as well, but we have to take what we see and figure out how best to sell it, who’s the best market for it, how to speak to other departments or other areas, because every buyer at auction is interested in jewelry. Jewelry is the most common denominator. You might not collect Chinese works of art or cars or Impressionists, but everyone has jewelry.
Sharon: Wow! How is that? Let’s say if I collect Chinese export stuff, how is it that I come to jewelry through that?
Emily: Again, we reach out to clients that have shown interest in our area from other departments and we promote that, but a lot of people know to come to us with jewelry because they see on our website our sales. They might have been looking at the Chinese work. Right now, it’s Asia week at Bonhams in New York. They might see on the site that we’ve just had two big sales, one in Los Angeles this week, one in London, so they know to come to us for jewelry as well.
Sharon: You’re having a second auction of the Jill and Byron Crawford collection. Is that what’s left over?
Emily: Jill and Byron have been amazing to work with. They’re such amazing collectors, not only for the type of properties, but for the quantity. So, we’ll still have plenty to sell for them. We’re so excited to be selling it. The whole sale is not just Jill and Byron; a portion of it is. We also have an important collection of Mexican silver from an important collector from the Orange County area. We also have a collection of John de Spray jewelry which I’m really excited to sell. French jewelry, very industrial, right?
Sharon: Yes.
Emily: And we also have similar Scandinavian pieces, some studio artists. There are over 1,500 pieces, so we’ll be selling it for quite some time.
Sharon: And the next major sale for this particular collection is? What is it?
Emily: November 10th
Sharon: You’re also previewing it for Art Jewelry Forum in October. I don’t know if I’ll be able to watch, but who else are you previewing for? There’s so much.
Emily: Just you two. I’ll be previewing at Bonhams and digitally on our website.
Sharon: Wow! That’s interesting to know that you have an interest in modernists. There are not many houses that one would think to bring their stuff if they have a modernist collection.
What is it that you like about the auction business? You like jewelry; I understand that. What is it that you like about the auction business?
Emily: I tried to leave it many times. I truly love it because of the speed of it. It’s a very rapid, fast-paced place to be. I love auction day. There’s nothing better than auctioning property you fought for, to see it do well on the auction block. I’m an auctioneer as well, so it’s very rewarding standing up there selling it on behalf of a client and doing well on it. I love the quantity of property we see. We’re on the front line. We’re the sale market value, right?
Sharon: Yeah.
Emily: We’re on the front line of it. We’re seeing thousands and thousands of pieces a year, and with that comes the education through osmosis. There might have been benchmarks I hadn’t seen or another studio artist I hadn’t known about. We’re seeing more and more daily than you would see anywhere else, and that’s my favorite part of it.
Sharon: I think that would be very hard to match in any other profession, the excitement, the action. I could understand feeling like, “Let me try something else,” but that would be very hard to match. Do you think you’d be as happy if you were auctioning something else, like art jewelry or rugs?
Emily: Yesterday I was auctioning a furniture sale, and I didn’t feel as much pressure because it wasn’t clients I had consigned. It was a different feeling. I love auction. I would work in any part of it, absolutely, but my passion for jewelry will never be subdued. I love it. I love every part of it. I love screaming from the rooftop when a collection is selling. That’s just my personality. I probably wouldn’t be as happy, but I’d be happy to work anywhere in the auction world.
Sharon: What’s the best thing you’ve ever auctioned, maybe the highest price or the most interesting? What’s the best thing you remember?
Emily: There are maybe two of those. I can split those up. My favorite collection was a collection of Lady Ashley. It was in our main New York sale, and it was a collection of fantastic Art Deco jewelry. This was a treasure trove. She was married to a lord, then Douglas Fairbanks, Clark Gable next, another lord, and then a prince. She had amazing Cartier Art Deco boxes, compacts in their cases. Some I’d never seen in that style before. One in particular was a polka dot pattern, and it was black and white. It was amazing. She also had some impressive Cartier aquamarine bracelets, which we all know those are rare to find. That was such an amazing collection because it was an amazing story; it was an amazing property, and it sold exceptionally well at auction.
By value, though, it’s the sale we did last year. We sold an emerald bracelet. It was over 107 carats of emeralds perfectly matched. It’s most likely they were cut from the same stone. This one was from the Crocker Fagan family from San Francisco. We are so excited to work with them again. We also sold a Cartier egret from them. The emerald bracelet was estimated at $1.8-$2.2 million and we sold it for $3.2 million.
Sharon: Wow!
Emily: So, that was a joy.
Sharon: Do the numbers scare you when you’re auctioning? Do they mean anything when you put the hammer down and you’re at $3.2?
Emily: It’s exciting. At that point, you’re just full of adrenaline when you’re selling higher value lots. There’s a lot of elegance in part of it. There’s a lot of communication of bidders either on the phone, on the internet or in the room, so there’s a lot of conversation going on about value. It’s a very exciting moment. I smile. I’m the worst at bluffing. You can see what’s on my face 99% of the time, so in those moments, I have definitely a big smile on my face.
Sharon: Are you given auctions from New York? Do they tell you the things that are going to come? If you have a sale in London, Hong Kong and, by the way, we’re going to do it in Los Angeles, can you preview it or tout it? Is that part of your work?
Emily: Yes, the New York office and myself work hand in hand. I source property for both sales as well as my New York colleague, Caroline. We work daily together, and we both preview our sales in each other’s offices. I just previewed our September sale in New York. She previews every New York sale in L.A. We also preview up in San Francisco. We love our San Francisco clients. It’s a fantastic place to be. So, we’re making sure we’re everywhere we can be, and we work together. In terms of property, though, let’s not discount the West Coast. My goodness, I found the best property of my career on the West Coast.
Sharon: I’d like to know where it is. I was talking to somebody yesterday, and I thought, “Where’s the jewelry on the West Coast?” It’s all so bling. There’s no history.
Emily: There are major hidden gems on the West Coast. We have found extraordinary collections. Again, Lady Ashley was acquired in California, Crocker Fagan up in San Francisco, Jill and Byron Crawford here in Malibu. There’s amazing property in California. We have such phenomenal heritage and history here, and with that there are major, major collectors. They just might not be wearing it to the grocery store.
Sharon: I had never heard of Jill and Byron Crawford. They had an amazing collection and, yes, they’re not wearing it to the grocery store. Is part of your job developing new business?
Emily: Absolutely. I’ve worked with some clients for years. Sometimes they might not feel comfortable yet. They might want to see where the markets are, or it’s sentimental. Jewelry is the most sentimental category, absolutely. A lot of times, clients need time to part with pieces, but they know they have to say goodbye. It’s my job to make sure I’m writing whenever they say want to sell it.
Sharon: That’s a good way to think of it. There’s somebody I know who will ask me, “Are you finished with it?” and I’ll think, “Yeah, I guess I am.” I’ve only had it for a couple of years, but I’m finished with it. I’ve worn it. I’m not going to wear it more for whatever reason.
When it comes to larger auctions, do you handle them differently? This is a big auction. Is it being handled differently than the smaller one?
Emily: Every sale takes a different nuance to it. It depends on the property we have. We’re definitely not like a jewelry store, where we have a ton of one lot. We have just one, and every sale has different property, so we have to cater to every sale as its own entity.
We just had this September sale, where we had property from a motion picture director, Mankiewicz, who directed All About Eve. We also had a collection of Disney in there, art jewelry. Shifting to art jewelry is entirely different. We have to create a new narrative for the sale, how to handle it, how we can do the best for it. I love that part of it. I love the storytelling. We’re the keepers of these stories. When these collections are given to us, it’s our job to tell the story, get people excited and get them registered to bid, basically.
Sharon: I think that’s very important. When you buy something, who cares who it used to belong to? But still, it used to belong to somebody, a name that people recognize.
Do you work with dealers? Do you work with lawyers? Do they call and say, “Hey, Emily, have I something for you”? How does that work?
Emily: Every day is different. I guess that’s another part of the job I love. I can be called by a trust attorney tomorrow. I could be called by a tax attorney, dealers. On Tuesday, we had our jewelry auction—this is just to give you context.
Sharon: Yes, please.
Emily: I was auctioneering all day until about 2:30, and then I got an email from a colleague about a collection that someone wanted me to pick up that day. So, I jump in my car, go pick up the collection, back to work. Every day is super different. We get a lot of interest through attorneys, through dealers, through other colleagues, through friends. My favorite interaction is by word of mouth. I love when people recommend me. It’s very, very important for me, not only for selling, but for buying. Whatever you’re looking for, let me hunt for it. I’m a hunter. That’s my job. Let me find it for you. Let me help you sell it.
Sharon: Do people call you and say, “Please let me know if there’s an emerald ring or an emerald bracelet”? I never see them, but do people call you and say, “Call me if something comes up”?
Emily: Yes, we have wish lists. I think I have my own personal wish list. We’re constantly working on those. We try to make sure we can help and find those pieces for anyone.
Sharon: What’s on your wish list?
Emily: I have quite a big one.
Sharon: What’s at the top or near the top?
Emily: Obscure French Art Deco is at the top. Now I have a much better love for some studio jewelry, in particular Betty Cooke. I’m really obsessed with her. They were in the Crawford sale. Those are on my wish lists right now.
Sharon: Betty Cooke is still alive, isn’t she? I think she’s still alive.
Emily: Yeah. She’s another of these dynamic women that I adore because she started a business. These were the times when we weren’t necessarily allowed to have bank accounts and credit cards. She started a whole business for herself that’s still running today. I love having pieces of history like that.
Sharon: And she’s affordable too. It’s expensive, but it’s affordable.
Emily: She’s in my price range.
Sharon: As opposed to a huge diamond. I’m not saying you couldn’t buy a huge diamond, but it’s more affordable than buying a huge diamond, I think.
Emily: Yeah, exactly. It’s more like the jewelry I can wear daily going to my son’s baseball game, things like that.
Sharon: Is that why you have come to like modernist jewelry, because it’s wearable?
Emily: Yes. Again, having my art history background, I love concepts. I love intention in design. I love expression. For me, art jewelry really embodies all of that.
Sharon: Does it make a difference to you if you’re looking at a piece—I might look at a piece of art jewelry, modernist jewelry, and not understand it, but then I understand it better if somebody explains it. Does that happen?
Emily: All the time. It’s funny; when I first started out in art history, I always ran into people who would criticize contemporary art and say, “Oh, I could do that.” I think it’s similar in art jewelry. “Oh, it’s too crude,” or “It doesn’t sense,” but once you explain it, their eyes light up, right?
Sharon: Yes.
Emily: They completely understand it and embrace it. Art Smith, he was making jewelry that was more about form. It was more about dynamic shapes and lines, and that wasn’t being done before. It was different from the Harry Winston diamond necklaces at the time.
Sharon: That’s true. You have to recognize what’s coming next, what’s around the bend, what’s around the corner. And it’s hard to wear a diamond to go grocery shopping.
Lindsay Minihan is the Executive Director of Metalwerx, an innovative school and community studio for jewelry making and metal arts located in Waltham, Massachusetts. In the past 13 years, she has doubled the organization’s financial capacity, expanded the annual curriculum to include over 130 annual courses, created 29 workspaces for jewelers, and initiated many new programs to better serve the jewelry and design community. Members of the Metalwerx community work as teachers’ assistants and school ambassadors, ensuring that every experience is productive and memorable.
Lindsay is trained as a metalsmith and is still creatively active while also making time to focus on family. Lindsay volunteers and supports other arts organizations, including Society of North American Goldsmiths and Women’s Jewelry Association. She has worked at major trade shows selling tools for Otto Frei and Foredom, juried national student scholarship awards for Women’s Jewelry Association as well as Excellence in Craft Awards for League of NH Craftsmen.
Lindsay loves working with students, educators, and visiting artists, and is passionate about contemporary jewelry – both making and wearing it. She is always looking for ways to strengthen her local community and create opportunities for people to find self-empowerment as well as professional and personal enrichment through metal arts.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Warren Feld
For Warren Feld, beading and jewelry making endeavors have been wonderful adventures. These adventures over the past 32 years have taken Warren from the basics of bead stringing and bead weaving, to wire working and silver smithing, and onward to more complex jewelry designs which build on the strengths of a full range of technical skills and experiences.
He, along with his partner Jayden Alfre Jones, opened a small bead shop in downtown Nashville, Tennessee, about 30 years ago, called Land of Odds. Over time, Land of Odds evolved into a successful internet business. In the late 1990s, Jayden and Warren opened another brick-and-mortar bead store – Be Dazzled Beads – in a trendy neighborhood of Nashville. Together both businesses supply beaders and jewelry artists with all the supplies and parts they need to make beautiful pieces of wearable art.
In 2000, Warren founded The Center For Beadwork & Jewelry Arts (CBJA). CBJA is an educational program, associated with Be Dazzled Beads, for beaders and jewelry makers. The program approaches education from a design perspective. There is a strong focus on skills development, showing students how to make better choices when selecting beads, parts and stringing materials, and teaching them how to bring these together into a beautiful, yet functional, piece of jewelry.
Warren is the author of two books, “So You Want to Be a Jewelry Designer: Merging Your Voice with Form” and “Pearl Knotting…Warren’s Way,” as well as many articles for Art Jewelry Forum.
Additional Links:
Warren Feld Jewelry www.warrenfeldjewelry.com
Warren Feld – Medium.com https://warren-29626.medium.com/
So You Want To Be A Jewelry Designer School on Teachable.com https://so-you-want-to-be-a-jewelry-designer.teachable.com/
Learn To Bead Blog https://blog.landofodds.com
The Ugly Necklace Contest – Archives http://www.warrenfeldjewelry.com/wfjuglynecklace.htm
Land of Odds www.landofodds.com
Warren Feld – Facebook www.facebook.com/warren.feld
Warren Feld – LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/warren-feld-jewelrydesigner/
Warren Feld – Instagram www.instagram.com/warrenfeld/
Warren Feld – Twitter https://twitter.com/LandofOdds
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Warren Feld didn’t become a jewelry designer out of passion, but out of necessity. He and his partner Jayden opened their jewelry studio and supply store, Land of Odds/Be Dazzled Beads, due to financial worries. But coming to the world of jewelry as an outsider is what has given Warren his precise and unique perspective on how jewelry should be made. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the language of jewelry design; why jewelry making should be considered a profession outside of art or craft; and why jewelry design is similar to architecture or engineering. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is jewelry designer Warren Feld. Warren wears several hats. He has an online company called Land of Odds. He has a brick-and-mortar store, Bedazzled Beads, and he’s a jewelry designer. He’s located in Tennessee. He’s been a jewelry designer for decades and has a written a book called “So You Want to Be a Jewelry Designer.” Welcome back.
Can you design a bad piece of jewelry? Can you come up with a bad piece of jewelry?
Warren: Yes and no. When we get into the cognitive issues, I deal with them in my book in detail. It’s a little too scientific for here, but in general, jewelry is organized as a circle. A circle is appreciated as something organized, unified, holistic. A circle in and of itself is beautiful. So, it’s really hard to design something that’s bad. While you can get better and better and better, it’s hard to get worse and worse and worse. It’s much harder.
Sharon: Let’s say I bring in a bunch of beads—I haven’t beaded for a million years—and some silk cord, and I say, “O.K., Warren, what should I do with this stuff?” Can you look at it and see something in it?
Warren: Usually. In that situation, they’re the designer; they have to live with it. I can guide them. I can help them make choices. I can help them narrow things down to two or three, but I try to always encourage them to make the final choice. But in my mind, I usually can do something really neat with it.
Sharon: It’s interesting that you say you learned so much just from taking things apart, seeing how they’re done. I had someone come on here and they were like, “Why did the guy glue this? I don’t understand.”
Warren: Yeah, you learn so much. That was a lucky break, that I decided to deal with repairs. I didn’t care enough about jewelry to say, “Oh, I’ve got to do repairs,” I thought I should do repairs. It was a lucky circumstance that it was one of my interests.
Sharon: Was the book burning a hole in your mind for a long time? Did you feel like, “I have to write this down”?
Warren: It’s really funny you say that. It’s like I wrote the book, and it’s all the stuff out of my head. It’s so great. It’s there in a book, so I don’t have to find it somewhere in my files. I don’t have to think as hard about different concepts. I can just go to my book and there it is. I don’t have to remember.
Sharon: Was it on your mind for a long time, the authorship, putting it all together?
Warren: About 20 years. I struggled, though. I wanted to write a funny book about funny things that happened with the different jewelry designers I’ve met in the store and how they try to solve things. I still might write that funny book, but this was the right book to get all the ideas out and really crystallize things. I was more interested in asking, “What does it take for jewelry designers to see themselves as a profession?” If they don’t see themselves as a profession, if they see themselves only as technicians, then we lose a lot. First off, as technicians, if they’re just following a set of steps and cranking out jewelry, machines can do that. We don’t need a designer. We don’t need the creativity. We don’t need that insight. We don’t need all those different artists’ hands to show what they can do, so we can appreciate a variety of ideas and concepts and interactions. What need is there if they’re technicians?
So, let’s make them professionals, but there’s a lot of pressure not to go in that direction. There’s a lot of pressure in art to keep subsuming jewelry under art and not let it have its own expression. There are a few jewelry design schools in the United States and more abroad, but they mostly teach metalcraft and technique. They really need to teach ideas. We have all these great jewelry designers all over the world who can describe their expression, but we really want to understand it. We want to build upon it. We want to understand how the ideas in their heads resonate, how that gets translated into jewelry, how people respond to their jewelry. We want to be able to articulate that much more deeply than just describing, “These are the materials. These are the dimensions and the measurements. This is the general philosophy of what they’re trying to do. This is the title of the show.” There’s a lot more. I was trying to build that. That was more motivating than writing my funny book. I might write that funny book.
Sharon: That sounds like a funny book, like a different podcast. It sounds like what you’re talking about would be difficult to put into words.
Warren: It is. I’ve had a lot of experience teaching students for a long time over 25, 30 years, so I’m used to translating hard concepts into language that beginners and intermediates can understand and grab onto. When I talk about parts, I give an example of a famous designer who does wrap bracelets, two pieces of leather and beads that go around your wrist, I’d say, two times. She charges $500 per bracelet, and I had the chance to repair many of them. She uses Indian leather, which dries out and cracks, and Chinese fire-polish beads, which is a clear bead with a color coating. The coatings rub off, so the side that faces the skin rubs off. This all happens well within a year, maybe six months. She uses a weak weaving thread that will break. She doesn’t reenforce the beginning and the end, so the weaving threads split at the beginning and the end. You have to reenforce the end so that doesn’t happen. It’s an architectural thing. For $500, she can use great leather, fire-polish beads, a nylon bead cord. She can do a silk wrap on each end to secure the ends, so they don’t split down the middle. She can still charge $500 and make a killing. It’s easy to come up with examples like that.
I can show you a piece I did. I did the piece as a series of columns, and the columns are connected with a hinge. You can’t really see it in the piece, but they’re hinged. What I wanted was, no matter what the body type, that the necklace would always be the right shape because it’s columns and hinges. It wouldn’t look weird. It wouldn’t create a bridge. It would always take the shape of the body. I pictured that a person might want to wear it close to the neck or lower on the breast, so it has a chain that’s adjustable.
I pictured the person wearing it to always want to capture someone’s eye, no matter what direction they’re looking at it, from the side, from the back. So, along some of the sides, I strategically wove in red Austrian crystal beads. They’ll catch your eye, but you don’t see it in the piece. The piece is basically blue. I used some brass beads that reflect light when white hits the piece. I used some glass beads that absorb light. Again, when I’m talking about design and architecture, I’m thinking about people viewing it. I’ve done all these things as examples of what people can think about. In the book, I’ve put a lot of this into English as best as I can.
Sharon: Most of the books I’ve looked at have been jewelry history or how-tos. I was thinking about this when I read your book, because you said that a piece of jewelry needs to be orchestrated from many angles, which is what you were just talking about. I remember a jeweler—this was years ago—who was talking about the fact that jewelry requires a lot of engineering. I never thought about that before in terms of bracelets not turning or things like that.
Warren: There is really no difference between making a bracelet and designing a bridge. It’s a different scale. You tie one end to the other. It’s got to look good and fit in a community. You’ve got to worry about your materials and how they handle stresses and strains. It has to be secure. It’s got to be durable. So, there’s really not much difference between the two. There’s all this architecture and engineering involved.
A lot of people don’t learn that. Most people learn a technique and they just do it, but technique has a part of it that helps you maintain a shape, and another part of the technique helps you maintain what I called movement and flow. Sometimes you have to be tighter or harder, sometimes not as hard, in order to achieve both maintaining the shape and maintaining the ability of that shape to adjust to all these forces and move and flow and feel comfortable. How many how-to books talk about that? They don’t.
Sharon: No, that is true.
Warren: In every technique the students learn that. I show them and force them to touch it. I personally touch on the results of different techniques and tell them what’s going on, what it feels like, what you can do. If it’s loose in one direction and tight in the other, you can’t make a curve. They never even thought about that, and now they do. They’re forced to think about that. When you teach a technique, I think it’s important. For a teacher to teach a technique that way, they have to be conditioned to teach that way. There’s no guide in jewelry design. There’s no academic base, a foundation for someone to ask those questions or be triggered to think that way. That’s one of the things I was trying to do in my book when I wrote the last chapters, where I teach all this stuff. You have to know.
I’ve had to train a lot of teachers through my education program. It’s really hard to do because at first you think, “I can make as much money not doing this work. I have to give them those instructions and just sit there.” I can’t do that in my program. I want the teachers to break the task up into little pieces and explain what this little piece of the task is trying to accomplish, so the students can know how to vary the technique as they’re going through the project and change the outcome if they want something that keeps its shape, moves shapes and feels comfortable. So, I have to train a lot of them. I have my strategies for training them. It’s really hard to do that, but I think very necessary. If jewelry becomes a profession, it’s necessary. We need to train jewelry designers as designers, not as craftspeople or artists.
Sharon: That’s a good point because there are so many “jewelry designers” today. They were doing something else before and decided to design jewelry, and they don’t have any training. They just said, “Oh, I’ll put these two pieces together.”
If you walk through a trade show or some sort of jewelry show, what are you looking for? How are you evaluating pieces?
Warren: I have enough experience in all these different techniques to spot what’s good and what’s bad. I will lead a tour of people on a shopping trip at a company and say, “This is good,” and I can show them why, and “This is not.” They end up spending thousands of dollars on really good stuff that they would have never gotten anywhere else. I can spot it because I make it. I made it. I’ve hidden the mistakes. I’ve had the most horrible problems happen with things falling apart, so I can spot it.
It’s the choice of materials. It’s the choice of construction. When you construct something, you have to go in with a support system, which is like a joint. You’ll see someone’s necklace turned around because things turn in the opposite direction from where they move. What turns to the left turns to the right. That’s not natural. That’s bad design. If you built a support system with joints, that never happens. If you take an S-clasp, a figure S, it has to have two solder rings, one on each side. If you’re using cable wire and crimp beads, you don’t crimp all the way up the clasp; you leave a little bit of a loop, so they have a ring loop on one side, a ring loop on the other. That’s four support systems for joints. An S-clasp always needs four joints, and the necklace will never turn around.
Sharon: It’s really important. I’m thinking it will eliminate a lot of what I have in my collection. Do you use the book as a guide in your classes?
Warren: The book is being pre-tested in classes. We ran a series of jewelry design classes. There were 27 topics. We’ve done it several times. On each topic you hear students’ questions. There are questions I have, how they answer, some resolution. A lot of the material in the book emerged from those discussions.
Sharon: What was your purpose in writing it? Was it to gain credibility or get your knowledge out there?
Warren: The book was really to push those ideas out there, to encourage and force more professionalization of the field and the discipline of jewelry design. The ideas are out there, but they’re not organized. From my experience, most people are unaware of the ideas about design. They’re very focused on the individual and unaware of all the architectural, like with the S-clasp. If someone comes into the store and their necklace keeps turning around, I can fix it so it could never turn again. They have something with either some rings or loops. It could have a hinge with it, and you can add a lark’s head knot, which is very loose and creates a lot of joint and distance support. You also have an overhead knot, which gives a little less support, but still a lot of joint support. A square knot is even less support, a glued knot, zero support.
If you have a piece where you’re gluing a lot of the knots, it’s going to break. It can’t take the stress. If you’re doing pearl knotting, whatever you’re doing, you want to minimize the use of glue. You have to glue at least one knot in pearl knotting, but that’s it. That’s as much support as I want to take away. Knots not only protect the pearls, but they absorb all the stresses and strains on the necklace from movement, instead of the stresses and strains ending up on the pearls, where it can crack. If they’re unglued and there’s an overhead knot to absorb all the stress and strain, your piece will break, but you won’t ruin your pearls. When people wear pearl knotting, they don’t worry about the architectural issue of stress and strain. You never see that in a book about hand knotting, but that’s one of the major reasons you have the knots, to preserve your materials and the piece as a whole. So, let’s get the information out there.
Sharon: That’s a very interesting point, a good point to think about. Warren, thank you so much for being here.
Warren: I appreciate it, thank you.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Warren Feld
For Warren Feld, beading and jewelry making endeavors have been wonderful adventures. These adventures over the past 32 years have taken Warren from the basics of bead stringing and bead weaving, to wire working and silver smithing, and onward to more complex jewelry designs which build on the strengths of a full range of technical skills and experiences.
He, along with his partner Jayden Alfre Jones, opened a small bead shop in downtown Nashville, Tennessee, about 30 years ago, called Land of Odds. Over time, Land of Odds evolved into a successful internet business. In the late 1990s, Jayden and Warren opened another brick-and-mortar bead store – Be Dazzled Beads – in a trendy neighborhood of Nashville. Together both businesses supply beaders and jewelry artists with all the supplies and parts they need to make beautiful pieces of wearable art.
In 2000, Warren founded The Center For Beadwork & Jewelry Arts (CBJA). CBJA is an educational program, associated with Be Dazzled Beads, for beaders and jewelry makers. The program approaches education from a design perspective. There is a strong focus on skills development, showing students how to make better choices when selecting beads, parts and stringing materials, and teaching them how to bring these together into a beautiful, yet functional, piece of jewelry.
Warren is the author of two books, “So You Want to Be a Jewelry Designer: Merging Your Voice with Form” and “Pearl Knotting…Warren’s Way,” as well as many articles for Art Jewelry Forum.
Additional Links:
Warren Feld Jewelry www.warrenfeldjewelry.com
Warren Feld – Medium.com https://warren-29626.medium.com/
So You Want To Be A Jewelry Designer School on Teachable.com https://so-you-want-to-be-a-jewelry-designer.teachable.com/
Learn To Bead Blog https://blog.landofodds.com
The Ugly Necklace Contest – Archives http://www.warrenfeldjewelry.com/wfjuglynecklace.htm
Land of Odds www.landofodds.com
Warren Feld – Facebook www.facebook.com/warren.feld
Warren Feld – LinkedIn www.linkedin.com/in/warren-feld-jewelrydesigner/
Warren Feld – Instagram www.instagram.com/warrenfeld/
Warren Feld – Twitter https://twitter.com/LandofOdds
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Warren Feld didn’t become a jewelry designer out of passion, but out of necessity. He and his partner Jayden opened their jewelry studio and supply store, Land of Odds/Be Dazzled Beads, due to financial worries. But coming to the world of jewelry as an outsider is what has given Warren his precise and unique perspective on how jewelry should be made. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the language of jewelry design; why jewelry making should be considered a profession outside of art or craft; and why jewelry design is similar to architecture or engineering. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is jewelry designer Warren Feld. Warren wears several hats. He has an online company called Land of Odds. He has a brick-and-mortar store, Be Dazzled Beads, and he’s a jewelry designer. He’s located in Tennessee. He has been a jewelry designer for decades and has written a book called “So You Want to Be a Jewelry Designer,” which sounds very interesting. The book sets up a system to evaluate jewelry and discusses how designing jewelry is different from creating crafts or being an artist. Warren will tell us all about his jewelry journey today. Warren, welcome to the program.
Warren: Sharon, I’m so excited to be here with you.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you artistic as a child? Did you study jewelry? How did you come to it?
Warren: I think I was artistic as a child, but my parents and teachers, my guidance counselors in high school, discouraged it. They put me on a track to be either a doctor or a lawyer, so I never had artistic training. In my thirties, I got into painting with acrylics. Not in a deep way, but in some artistic way. I never formally studied art. I became a health care administrator, and I was a professional hospital administrator at several hospitals. I was a policy planner in healthcare for the governor of Tennessee. I was director of a nonprofit healthcare agency. When I was around 35, I experienced a major burnout. I didn’t like healthcare and I felt very disconnected. I was doing a great job, but I just didn’t feel it.
At the same time, I met my future partner and wife, Jayden. It was a recession, and Jayden was having trouble finding a job. At one point I said, “What can you do?” and she said, “I can design jewelry,” and I said, “We can build a business around it.” I thought it would also be a good idea to sell the parts, and it worked. We first had a garage sale, where she made a lot of jewelry and sold a lot of parts, and we made $7,000. Maybe it was a fluke. So, six weeks later, we tried it again. We made the same jewelry, got the same parts, and made $4,000. So, we thought we were onto something. We eventually did the Nashville Flea Market and craft shows. We had a little store in downtown Nashville. We have a bigger store in downtown Nashville now. It worked. It was really around her jewelry designing and my business sense. I made some jewelry, but it was just to make money.
Sharon: Wow! So, you have two businesses. You have an online business, and you have the brick-and-mortar. Tell us about Land of Odds and Be Dazzled Beads. Tell us about the differences.
Warren: Originally it was Land of Odds. Jayden was the designer. We made jewelry, but it was more like I put a bead on a piece of leather and tied it in a knot. Eventually I started learning. While working at learning silversmithing, I did a lot more complex things, but she was the designer. She had country music artist clients and did a lot of custom work. The first few years, I really made jewelry just to make money. I didn’t see it as an art form. It wasn’t my passion. I wasn’t interested, but one thing I noticed was that everything I made broke. It was really bad, and I was clueless. This was in 1987. There was no internet, no jewelry or bead magazines. Nashville did not have a jewelry-making culture, so everything was trial and error, things on fishing lines, things on dental floss. I didn’t know how to attach a clasp, didn’t know about clasps. Everything was so trial and error, experimental.
At some point, I started taking in repairs. That was a really strategic move and a major turning point, because I got to see how other people made things and made bad choices because of what broke. I got to talk to the wearers, and they told me how they wore it, what happened when it broke, where it broke, lots of inside stories. I started formulating some things, and I started putting them to the test and making jewelry. I was in my mid-to-late thirties, and I started getting interested and focused on the construction and the architecture, not quite the art form. Jayden’s health also declined. She lost a lot of dexterity in her hands to be able to keep making jewelry. She retired, and I started making the jewelry and doing the custom work. The business started getting organized around my work. That was Lands of Odds. We were downtown in Nashville.
Sharon: At Be Dazzled Beads, you teach a lot of classes. You sell beads. You do everything.
Warren: It just evolved. It had to do with the fact that we were downtown. Nashville, at the time, was what Greenwich Village in New York was. It’s a lot of little specialty shops, a lot of excitement. It was really high-end, very sophisticated. It was so successful that the big companies started moving in, Hard Rock Café, Planet Hollywood, Nascar Café, Wildhorse Saloon. When the city decided to redevelop the area for them, they took away 6,000 parking spaces in 18 months, and parking went from $2 to $20 a day. We lost all our customers really fast, and tourists changed. They were looking for low-end souvenirs, not high-end jewelry, so our business collapsed.
We put ourselves in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and the liability is under my name. I closed Land of Odds, the physical store, and I put the assets under Jayden’s name. We opened a little shop in a little house, and Jayden wanted to call it Be Dazzled. At the same time, I was developing Land of Odds as an online business. Be Dazzled was a real place in a store. About a year after declaring bankruptcy, I got out of bankruptcy and the catalogue took off. We were doing really well all of a sudden, and I combined both businesses again. So, I just had this horrible business name, Land of Odds/Be Dazzled Beads. We managed those as two separate businesses, but it was really one business.
Sharon: So, you were online way before Covid or anything.
Warren: I was online in 1995. I was one of the first catalogues online. We’re still online. It’s a little hard to compete today online, but we’re still online.
Sharon: That’s interesting because so many jewelers are not. You call yourself a jeweler. I don’t mean you’re not a jeweler; you are, but they don’t work with beads. They work with silver; they work with gold. So, it’s unusual.
Warren: No matter what the materials, you end up with something with a hole in it or a loop on it so you can string it on or dangle it. I taught myself wire working, fiber art, micro/macro maze, silversmithing. Even though the tools are different, the materials are different, when you’re designing a piece of jewelry, you end up thinking through the same kinds of issues. The focus on parts was another lucky break because it made me realize early on that jewelry design was quite different than art or craft.
I started as a painter. When I first started making jewelry, I tried to paint it. I was very frustrated because I couldn’t get the colors I wanted. You can’t squish the beads together; you can’t do little nuances and subtleties like you can do with paint. There are these annoying gaps of light, negatives spaces you can’t control, and they destroy the whole idea of color. You have three-dimensional objects that reflect and refract light differently. It changes from room to room with lighting, the sun, the position of the person, how they’re moving. I have some beads in the store, green, transparent beads that cast a yellow shadow. You can’t duplicate that with paint, but you have to worry about if the jewelry starts to look weird on a person because you picked the wrong materials or the wrong colors. Jewelry applies to the person wearing it. You don’t want that to happen as a designer.
So, I realized that whether it’s beads or string materials, findings, whatever you’re using, they assert their needs within the piece of jewelry. It’s not just for the visual grammar, the color and pattern and texture, but they have needs for architecture. They affect some of the functions based on materials you pick, and the durability and how the piece moves. They affect the desirability and the value, how people perceive the piece. So, I began to see that I had to start with the parts and understand how they want to be expressed within a three-dimensional object that’s going to adorn someone’s body and move and meet someone’s psychological and social needs. It’s very focused on the parts.
What I was doing as a jewelry designer was very different than what I had done as a painter, as an artist. The lights went on, and it just was really intriguing. I struggled and dealt with it. It was very exciting and enjoyable to figure out, with that green bead that has the yellow shadow, what effect does it have on the piece, on the person wearing it, on people seeing it? I asked those questions, and that was really important. I was lucky to start with the parts and the business and not start with just designing jewelry and worrying about the visual grammar. Then I realized, both from being in business as well as teaching students, that most jewelry designers are very naïve to the impact of the parts. They’re very focused on the visual, the color. They don’t realize that so much more is going on in a piece of jewelry, so they don’t think about managing it.
Sharon: So that’s how you came to write this book, “So You Want to be a Jewelry Designer”?
Warren: Right.
Sharon: Wow! Being a painter and working in different materials, you’re all over the place.
Warren: I had been thinking about or trying to write this book for at least 20 years. Having all these insights, I wanted to write them down. I would write them down in these articles, sometimes fun articles and sometimes very straightforward, more academic articles, and I struggled with how to pull this all together. I was getting ideas about what was important. One of my goals is to say that a jewelry designer is not an occupation. It’s not a substantive art. It’s really a profession. It has its own discipline, its own way of thinking and writing and doing and asking questions, solving problems. It’s a profession, but how do I make it that way? I’ve worked that way pretty much on principle.
At one point, an education professor in town said that I might be interested in ideas about literacy and how you teach literacy to students. While I was researching that, I came across the idea of disciplinary literacy. This is an example of how a historian has to think very differently than a scientist. They use different evidence. The historian has to infer from different pieces of writing and histories and costuming to come up with an idea about cause and effect. A scientist has this rational, step-by-step approach for coming up with an idea of cause and effect. They think differently. They use different evidence. I thought, “Well, that sounds like me as a jewelry designer. I think differently than artists.” I’ve had to think differently than artists because as an artist, my designs weren’t successful.
That was the organizing principle, disciplinary literary. So then, what does it mean? What does someone have to know if they have to comprehend it? When you say someone’s fluent in design, what does that mean? How do you believe it’s real? What’s nice was that I had done all this writing, and everything started clicking into place. The organizing principle wasn’t as much of a struggle as it was to try to put it together as an idea of you need to learn A, B and C.
You need to learn about design elements and how to decode them, but in a way like you’re learning how to read them or write them or speak them. You have color. You can put colors together and create a sense of movement, another design element. Color is very independent, but movement depends on your positioning of color or line or whatever to get a sense of movement as a design element. So, here we have independent and dependent variables, vowels or consonants. Some of the design elements sounded like vowels and some sounded like consonants. How do you put it together? I realized you could put together a couple of design elements, like a T and an H in word, and you could know that E will work next. Another element or one of its attributes might work next, but a Z won’t work. THZ doesn’t work. That happens with design elements when you’re trying to put them together. When you understand design elements as sort of an alphabet, then you begin to formulate meaning and expression and words, and the words can get more and more complex.
So, you realize you’re talking about composition. You’re arranging design elements, and you have to arrange them in a way that they can be constructed together, which is another element. Then you want to manipulate them because you want to control as best as you can someone’s reaction to it. You want them to like it, to want to wear it, to want to buy it. This is all controlling meanings, as you’re taking something universal, where everyone knows what they mean. A certain color scheme, everyone knows it’s satisfying, but a simple color scheme in jewelry might be boring. It might be monotonous or it might not fit the context. It might not show power or sexuality or compliance, whatever you’re trying to do with your jewelry. You have to change that scheme a little bit, perhaps color it differently.
So, I’m going through these ideas and working them together with literacy. You want someone to be able to identify problems, identify solutions. You want them to understand how to bring all these elements and arrangements together in a certain kind of form, sometimes with a theme. And towards what end? You have to have an end. I struggled with this. What’s the end? What the jewelry is trying to get to, is it the same as an artist? And it’s not. In art, it’s about harmony with a little variety. In jewelry design, that could be monotonous, not exciting enough. In jewelry design, you want the piece to go beyond evoking an emotional response. You want it to resonate, excite, be just a little bit edgy so people want to touch it or wear it or buy it. They don’t just want to say it’s beautiful. You want to bring them the piece of jewelry so they actually will put it on, keep it on, cherish it, show it around, collect it. It has to do something more than an art. In the end, it has to do partly with how it resonates.
It seems to have more levels to it. It has to feel finished, and in order to feel finished, it has to be parsimonious. In art, there’s a concept called economy. You use the fewest colors to achieve your balanced end, but it’s very focused on the visual. In parsimony, you focus on every aspect of design, from the visual to the architectural and textual to the psychological. Parsimony means you can’t add or subtract one piece without making it worse. You’ve reached some kind of optimal set of all the design elements, all the understandings of other people that you’re bringing into the piece, all your understandings that you’re imposing on the piece. If it’s parsimonious, it feels finished, and that’s a success. So, you go a little bit beyond what an artist does for your piece of jewelry.
Sharon: Are these different in craft? I’m sorry; that’s what I’m trying to understand. Are they different in craft or fine arts?
Warren: In craft, your goal is to end up with something. Ideally, it should have some appeal, but it’s got to be functional. You just end up with something. In art, it’s got to be beautiful. It’s doesn’t have to be functional. In art, you judge jewelry like it’s a painting or sculpture, like it’s sitting on an easel. In jewelry design, you can only judge it as art as it’s worn. It’s not art until it touches the body, and that brings in all kinds of elements, the architectural, psychological, sociological, physiological. Jewelry functions in a context and you have to know what that means. So, it’s different.
Sharon: It’s only a piece of jewelry when it touches the body? Is that the same for metal and beads, for any kind of jewelry?
Warren: It is. You have art jewelry, let’s say. It’s art when it’s on an easel on display. It’s jewelry when it’s worn. You can appreciate it as a piece of art, but to me, as a jewelry designer, I want to appreciate it as a piece of jewelry. So, it’s got to be understood as it’s worn. You have to see it in motion. You have to see it in relationship to the body, the costume, the context. It has to meet the artist’s intent, what they wanted to do, and the wearer has to want to wear it. It must fulfill other needs, too. So, it’s much more complex than dealing with a painting.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jennifer Cullen
Jennifer Cullen is the owner of Four Winds Gallery, a jewelry gallery in Double Bay, Australia that focuses on jewelry of the American Southwest. Established in 1981, Four Winds boasts a collector’s standard of traditional and contemporary North American Indian jewelry, pottery, sculptures, graphics and textiles. The gallery is the culmination of a long-term interest and passion for Jennifer.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Jennifer Cullen of Four Winds Gallery, an unusual jewelry gallery located in Double Bay, Australia. Welcome back.
What about coral? You have the reefs there, and there’s a lot of coral in Indian work, but I hear it’s becoming very hard to find now.
Jennifer: We have no coral in Australia to work with. It’s protected, and we have a lot of trouble with—what is it? The crown-of-thorns starfish. They’re doing a lot about coral beds on the northeast coast of Australia, with all that big, beautiful coral. They’re doing a lot to maintain that at the moment. All the coal that has been historically worked into North American Indian jewelry was traded in by the Spanish originally, so it’s all Mediterranean coral. The earliest coral strands in the 1800s were drilled and rolled strands of beads that they would wear around the neck with cotton sinew or twill, or whatever was strung through the center of it. And there were webs of coral. They would wear ropes of heishi done in clamshell. Later on, as they got better equipment, there was turquoise heishi and jet heishi. Heishi is the traditional word for a handmade, small bead.
Originally the coral was traded. The Native American groups loved the color. They had previously found their ability with color by working with the spiny oyster shell that comes out of the Gulf of Mexico. The spiny oyster shell comes in colors from reds similar to coral into purple and intense orange, like an Hermès orange. It’s a beautiful color. I actually have a lot in my jewelry because I love it. I sell a lot of it here, and I wear a lot of it. I love the orange. I’ve always had a passion for these oranges and reds and purples. People in the Southwest embraced it pretty rapidly and started to incorporate it into their jewelry findings and body adornment. So, in the 1800s, it was works of coral predominantly.
Then they started to learn how to work silver. That didn’t start until about 1868. Prior to 1868, there was very little in silver. They actually started by heating up copper and brass cooking utensils. They were soft materials that were exposed to them by the soldiers and the Spanish and the Mexicans, and they’d make it into jewelry findings and body adornment. Then they discovered silver, which is found in the Southwest of the USA, and they started to make that into metal findings to house the stones. That was the process.
When chatting at length with another one of my mentors, Lori Phillips, she used to talk to me a lot about the development of American Indian jewelry, history and development. She was a big dealer and collected from Pasadena in California back in the day. I was very close friends with her. Anyway, she taught me a lot. They started setting coral into silver vessels and housings and cabinets in about the early 1950s. There wasn’t a lot of coral set into jewelry, other than strands or ropes of coral beads, prior to 1952. So, finding the odd piece of jewelry that did have a bit of coral in it is a very unusual thing.
Generally, most of the coral still comes from the Mediterranean. It’s traded in now by different dealers. It’s become very expensive and sought after because they’re protecting the coral beds in Italy. It’s getting harder and harder to get it.
Sharon: It’s harder, yeah.
Jennifer: Yeah, but it’s not Australian coral at all.
Sharon: You’re so knowledgeable. Do you put on educational seminars besides flying in artists?
Jennifer: We used to write articles here in Sidney for the Antiques and Art Galleries Magazine every quarter. There were some pages of photographs and examples of things. Probably about seven years ago, when the paper folded and everything went digital, that’s when we ended up with the New South Wales Art and Antiques Magazine. Maybe it went down into Victoria as well and Melbourne south of us, which is not a big town, but it's a cultural center. So, I used to write articles. I have been meaning to put together all those articles I wrote for so many years and so many editions of the Antiques and Art Galleries Paper in New South Wales and compile them into a book. That’s on the to-do list. I haven’t gotten around to doing that yet.
I used to do talks occasionally at clubs or different places where women would want to be spoken to about wearable body adornment. I did some radio interviews with Dan Kotch back in the day. He’s a finance and investment guy who does radio interviews with people to talk about things that are considered good investments, that hold their value and appreciate over time, which jewelry does. Up in the Blue Mountains I did some talks. I was invited to talk to groups of artists that lived up in the mountains who did various forms of artwork. They wanted to hear about American Indian art in general, the textiles, the jewelry, the pottery making, how it was done. I’ve also done interviews with a local radio station here. They invited me to do a few talks on their Sunday afternoon program about jewelry. So, I’ve done a fair bit.
I’ve done fashion magazines, Vogue and Harper’s Bazaar and different things. I’ve done photoshoots of my jewelry over the years, where they’ve wanted to show unusual artwork. They often use it in their fashion shoots. They borrow jewelry and put it in their fashion shoots and give credit to the gallery, but then they’ll ask me to write some information about the gallery and what’s it all about, and then they’ll put that into the magazine. Women of Individual Style was a thing that came out one time, and I was asked to be a part of that one issue. They talked about me and how I dressed and all the body adornment I wore and how I put it together. So, over 40 years, there have been quite a lot of things I’ve been asked to do. I haven’t actually written a book and I haven’t organized a group of talks. I probably could, but running a business, having staff, trading pearls, going on buying trips, organizing four exhibitions a year, it’s a lot. You do the best with the bulls that are the most important for you.
Sharon: No, I understand. You have a lot of time left to do that.
I’ve never been in the Indian Market. I’ve always wanted to go, but I’ve been scared off by the crowds.
Jennifer: It is hectic. It is very hectic.
Sharon: Yes. You say when you come back, you have a buying exhibition?
Jennifer: Sure. I’m over there, often Instagramming things I’m finding and putting it on Instagram just to show people things I’m finding while I’m away. Then, when I get back, I have to ship everything home to Sidney and we go through it. We take a nice photograph of it, like a postcard, and I send it out. I have some 5,000 people on my mailing list. So, I send all my clients a huge postcard of beautiful jewelry. I’ll have an odd, old carving in there or something to make it look beautiful. I send it out and say, “Hi, that’s my latest buying trip. We’ll be having a champagne opening”—it’s usually the second week of September on a Saturday—“Please come see the collection, or you can view a lot of it online or you can email me.” My clients look forward to that because they’re not all traveling to Santa Fe and the reservation, so it’s as close to it as they can get.
Sharon: Absolutely. Where else are they going to get it, unless they go to Santa Fe?
Jennifer: And even then, you’re so overwhelmed. There’s so much product over there. All of it’s handmade by Native American artists. It’s a crazy time to do it with a lot of shops. It’s hard to find good quality material that’s authentic as well. But a lot of my clients do end up going on a holiday over there and want to be there.
Sharon: What are you looking for when you’re there? You say it’s hard to find the right things. What are you looking for?
Jennifer: I’m often hunting for early pieces that are by great artists, or things that are unusually aesthetically beautiful that impress me and are different to what I’ve found before. Or maybe it’s similar to something I’ve found before, but I haven’t seen something like that in a long time. It’s a hunt for the rare and the unusual and the beautiful.
It’s also visiting all my artists and seeing what is being made. In the winter, when they’re planning to bring it to market in the summer, I’m talking with them about what they’re going to make during the year. Am I going to set up a show with some of them? Can they make money if I buy from them at the Indian Market? Because they’re trying to sell to the tourists at retail price. As a representative, I have to buy at a wholesale price, so I can buy it and present it to my clients here for a reasonable price. We talk about what they might build or make during the year. We talk about all of that. Would they like to come for a show? When would it suit both of us? It can’t be in August, because I’m in America, or in September because I do my returns from my trip show. I have three other shows I do with my sister.
Then I’m looking, not for a huge amount of them, but for artworks and artifacts that are interesting, that resonate with the Southwest. Recently I got an old hunting lodge elk horn chandelier with little parchment shades over the lights. My electrician has to rewire it for the Australian current to hang it in the gallery. We’re still working on that project. We’ve got to get it rewired and hung up in the ceiling and get a secure hook, but I’m bringing things into the gallery that make people feel connected with the Southwest.
There’s something about that culture that—I don’t know. I don’t particularly believe in past lives and that kind of thing, but there’s something about that culture that so resonates with me. I can’t really explain it, but I just love it. It’s the only place I feel at home when I get out of the plane and the Albuquerque airport, and I rent the car and head out to Zuni or wherever I’m going. If I’m driving across to Prescott or different places, I feel quite at home. It’s a weird sensation. I also feel it while I’m here on the edge of the ocean. Those are two places where there’s a sense of freedom and expanse and openness that I love.
Sharon: I can understand that. I can understand both the ocean and Santa Fe, with the light and the sunsets.
Jennifer: What is it? The plains, the wide-open spaces. It’s a very open, incredible feeling of freedom. I don’t know how to explain it. It is beautiful, and Santa Fe is very pretty with the housing and the pretty streets. Everything is adobe-style, and I do love that as an architectural form. It’s very lovely, but what really is amazing is driving around the country in the Southwest. It’s so open. I just love it. Just talking about it, I love it.
Sharon: Is there turquoise all over the country, all over the U.S.?
Jennifer: Only in the Southwest, so Nevada, I think some in Utah, and the very southern states. It comes from copper and iron areas, where you find copper and iron is mined heavily, thus the color of the turquoise. It’s developed in veins within these mines. A lot of the beautiful turquoise like Bisbee and Villa Grove and Lander and some of the very rare or early turquoises were from small pockets of turquoise mines that were mined out and are now exhausted. You can’t get those stones anymore, unless you get them from jewelry that was made some time ago with this quality of stone. Maybe somebody has been sitting on some raw material that they’ve yet to make things out of. Sometimes you buy at auction or estates, and you find old jewelry that has great stones, but the jewelry is ugly, so you pull it apart and give it to an artist to remake into a great piece.
A lot of the turquoise you get today, which is Sleeping Beauty or Kingman or from more general mines, it’s more prolific in availability. A lot of it has been stabilized or treated so you can work with it. It’s stronger and easier to work with, but getting good, natural stone is always my preference. If it’s high grade, it won’t change much in color because it’s very dense and quite glossy. If it’s more medium in grade, it’ll be more porous, so more vulnerable to moisture acquisition. It will vary in color slightly over the years depending on your body oil. Not as much in the desert in the Southwest. The atmosphere there doesn’t change it too much. Here in Australia, we’re very humid, so it changes much differently than it does in the desert area. There’s something charming about that. It’s like it’s alive. It’s like it takes on some tones and colors of blue and green and everything in between depending on the wearer, the humidity, what country you live in. It’s a very personal stone. It’s like the stone and the sea. It’s always changing.
Sharon: Can you look at a piece of turquoise and tell where it’s from or if it’s old?
Jennifer: Yes, you can tell whether it’s recent and hasn’t been around for very long. You can generally tell whether it’s high grade, medium grade or low grade, depending on the density, the patina, the veining, all that kind of thing. Labeling what mine it comes from is a very tricky process because you have all these different mines scattered around the Southwest. Manassa is traditionally green, Kingman is traditionally blue, Blue Gem is traditionally very glossy, high grade and more of an aqua color. You’ll get variations within the mine as well that tend a little more green or a little less or more polished. So, it’ll look a little bit like another mine.
Then how old is the piece? I’ve been in discussion with dealers who have been handling turquoise for a long time. That will also help you decide where that stone probably came from, because that was the sort of stone they were using back when Leekya, for instance, was carving his turquoise stones. He liked the gentle, aqua-colored turquoise, and that was a particular stone. A more recent stone, Sleeping Beauty, is a high-grade, intense bluish stone. If it’s more recently made, it’s probably going to be that rather than Villa Grove, which is an older, softer, very blue stone, more of a cornflower blue. So yes, like anything, whether it be opals, pearls, old furniture, textiles, whatever, if you do your thing for long enough, you get to know all about it.
Sharon: And that’s how you learned? You didn’t study it, right?
Jennifer: I have a whole library here of books on North American Indian art, jewelry, painting, sculpture, kachinas, pottery, textiles. I’ve written articles all my life. I’ve been over there twice a year. I’ve looked at millions of pieces of jewelry, although not as many pieces of textiles and paintings and sculptures or pottery. So, it’s experience, knowledge, rating, education. The hands-on piece is always significant. People like Teal McKibben, Lori Phillips, people who were before me, women in particular who I identify with, who spent their lives studying American Indian art. They’ve all passed away now or they’re in their 80s. They taught me a lot, saying “Look at these. Look at how this is made and look at this stone.” It’s been a life’s education.
Sharon: It sounds like it. What’s your favorite kind of jewelry?
Jennifer: My passionate thing that I love more than anything to this day is very early Navajo silversmithing and turquoise. That’s what they call Villa Grove, or a sky blue turquoise stone. It’s not as high-end as Blue Gem or Manassa or Lander or Indian Mountain—there’s a whole lot of them—but I love the color. I love the soft, simple, understated, courageous and brave form of silver that the Navajo did in their silversmithing from learning to be blacksmiths, which is what they were first told they had to do. They were on the reservations shoeing the horses of the soldiers and the English and the French. Their talent for silversmithing evolved from that, with their strength and the creativity and simplicity and the beautiful execution of silver body adornment.
Originally it was all men making the silver things, so there’s a masculine tone to it that I love as well. That’s become the thing now. I’m wearing my salmon clothes. The balance of putting beautifully hammered, wonderful silver jewelry with simple sets of turquoise stone, on me, I just love it. Sometimes things are so beautiful. You look at so many things. How you can you tell why this one is better than this one? I say, “Well, look at it. Can’t you see?” But that’s me. So, that’s probably my most passionate thing, early Navajo silver jewelry.
Then, after being in the business and dealing with it for a long time, I grew to really love Leekya Deyuse and Zuni carved turquoise jewelry. Leekya Deyuse was a Zuni carver that was probably working from the 1920s to the 1950s. He died in the 1960s fighting fires in Zuni. He was not all that old. Anyway, I have grown to love very much Leekya’s carved turquoise. Not only turquoise; sometimes he did coral figures of leaves and bears and birds. His work is very hard to get, finely carved. He was one of the first guys who set the precedent of carving fetish necklaces on little animals and necklaces. He was one of the first to take the format of shell and stone and create it into a little medicine or good luck charm or protection from an animal. Then he took it another step further and started threading it on beads so you could wear it like a necklace. They are probably my two most favorite things to look for, really great Navajo jewelry and really great pieces by Leekya. There is certainly much more to it, but that’s it if I was going to put it in a nutshell.
Sharon: Who should we keep our eyes on then?
Jennifer: Who’s up and coming?
Sharon: Yes.
Jennifer: Cheryl Yestewa has been around for quite a long time, but I find her jewelry just fabulous and exploding in creativity in various ways. She works out of the desert, but she’s into sea inspiration. Anyway, she’s a wonderful artist.
I think Keri Ataumbi, who is—let me get the tribe right. Keri Ataumbi is Kiowa. She does really great work. I’m very excited about her work. We’ve had a couple of exhibitions of her work now, and she should be coming to her first exhibition in Sidney this Christmas.
Denise Wallace is a legend so she’s not up and coming at all, but I think her son, David, is a great carver. Carving free form in ivory is a very difficult and challenging thing to do, and I think he’s got a gift. I think David Wallace is somebody to watch. He’s not putting himself out very much yet, but I think he’s great.
I think for lapidary work—and she’s been doing it for a while—she’s the daughter of Cheryl Yestewa. Piki Wadsworth does the most beautiful lapidary. I think she just grows and excels and gets better and better at what she does. She’s Hopi. I think these are the people that come to mind at the moment.
Every time I go down into Gallop, I have a look at different artists’ works that are up and coming. A lot of them are doing some really interesting work, but a lot of them aren’t wanting to go to Santa Fe or get high-profile or get noticed. I have to rely on people I know from that region to collect their work during the year. Then I go to them and see what they’ve made.
Sharon: It sounds very exciting. Thank you so much for being with us. It’s been great talking with you.
Jennifer: It’s been my pleasure and so much fun. I hope you do come to the Indian Market one day.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jennifer Cullen
Jennifer Cullen is the owner of Four Winds Gallery, a jewelry gallery in Double Bay, Australia that focuses on jewelry of the American Southwest. Established in 1981, Four Winds boasts a collector’s standard of traditional and contemporary North American Indian jewelry, pottery, sculptures, graphics and textiles. The gallery is the culmination of a long-term interest and passion for Jennifer.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
The suburbs of Sydney, Australia might be the last place you’d expect to find a Native American jewelry gallery, but that’s exactly what makes Jennifer Cullen’s Four Winds Gallery so special. After a lifelong love affair with the jewelry of the American Southwest, Jennifer opened her gallery in Double Bay, a Sydney suburb known for its high-end shopping. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history behind Native American silversmithing; how she educated Australian collectors about Southwestern jewelry; and why turquoise is the most personal gemstone. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Jennifer Cullen of Four Winds Gallery, an unusual jewelry gallery located in Double Bay, Australia. Jennifer is talking with us from Australia today. I say this is an unusual gallery because it focuses on Native American jewelry and jewelry of the Southwest. When I look at the jewelry, I immediately think of Santa Fe, New Mexico. I love the jewelry. Santa Fe happens to be one of my favorite places. I saw these pieces on Instagram and I was blown away because I thought, “How can this be in Australia?” She has this gallery in Australia with these beautiful Native American pieces. I’m looking forward to hearing Jennifer’s jewelry journey today. Jennifer, welcome to the program.
Jennifer: Good morning from Double Bay, Sidney, Australia. I’m sure it’s a good evening over there. It’s so fun to talk with you.
Sharon: It’s great to talk with you. You were just telling me about your jewelry journey, and I want to hear more about it.
Jennifer: Turquoise is my birthstone. This is how this whole thing started for me, back when I was teenager, born in December, being a Sagittarian. Australia doesn’t really create turquoise as a birthstone here. We have little pockets of it, but it’s waste. It’s never looked at in the jewelry format. America is the land of fabulous turquoise. When I finished high school, my father happened to be CEO for Westinghouse, an American company. So, the family headed to the East Coast, as you would say. Westinghouse headquarters at the time was in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. When I went to the States, I put my university degree on hold here in Sidney and followed my parents. I wanted to buy some turquoise jewelry, and the first stop as a family traveling from Australia to America for the first time was Disneyland in California. We went to the gift shop in Frontierland, and I bought a great, big, funny turquoise, which I loved. My mother found it very curious, because my other jewelry was fine jewelry or gold jewelry that they had given me as they had gotten older. I loved it.
We made it to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which is where my dad worked. I did classical ballet and psychology part-time at the local Pitt University to fill my time. One afternoon after university, I went to the bathroom and took my ring off to wash my hands. When I walked out, I forgot to put the ring back on. I went back in, and it was gone. I was devastated. My parents said, “Don’t worry. There’s a nice gallery in Pittsburgh. They have American Indian jewelry. Go check it out.” So, I went and found Four Winds Gallery in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and fell in love with the culture. The jewelry, the textiles, the pottery, everything American Indian and Southwestern that was in the gallery, I loved. I bought a new ring on layaway, as you call it. I spent a lot of time there talking about the jewelry with a guy named John Krena who runs and owns the place. He opened it in 1974. He taught me a lot about it and helped me understand it.
After two years, we moved back to Sidney. I didn’t want to finish my university degree; I wanted to stay involved in and surrounded by the beauty of the artwork that comes from the Southwest done by American artists, who are quite gifted. I was interested in old jewelry and new, as well as paintings and artifacts and pottery and textiles to a degree, but the focus has always been the body adornment, the wearable art.
In 1981, I set up a tiny store in Double Bay in Sidney. People would come and say, “Oh, hi sweetie, what’s all this blue stuff? Do you make it?” “Well, no. I wish I was so clever, but it’s turquoise. It comes from the Southwest of the USA. It’s made by multiple American Indian artists.” That’s where it started. 41 years later, in 2022, I’ve changed stores a couple of times. I bought this store 3½ years ago. We’re at it again, but it’s been a journey, a hobby, a passion, a lifestyle and an income. It’s something that I’ve enjoyed all my life.
The gallery has four exhibitions a year. I try to fly out artists for two of those exhibitions to meet my clients, because people like to meet the people who make the things and understand where it comes from. They are always contemporary artists. A big part of the gallery as well is the historical worth of vintage and antique jewelry. When I went on buying trips, which were every August and February up until Covid, I would come back and have a “return from a buying trip” exhibition. That would be a general exhibition in August of all the treasures I found on that adventure of three or four weeks in Santa Fe, Gallup, Scottsdale, Zuni, the Pueblos and various shows and things I’ve been exposed to. So, that’s a general show.
During the year, I’d have a specific show for one of the great artists I represent, like Mike Bird-Romero. McKee Platero was out here one time. Cody Sanderson has been out many times. These are all Southwestern artists. Denise Wallace of the Wallace family, I’ve adored and represented her work for many, many years now. I also represented her husband before he suddenly passed away some time ago, and her daughter, Dawn, and son, David. They’re Alaskan. Their work is fossilized marine ivory with scrimshaw set in beautiful silver and gold housings. The Southwestern jewelry is turquoise and coral and lapis and cream clamshells and all the various materials that hail from that kind of jewelry more predominantly.
Sharon: All of your jewelry is beautiful and instantly recognizable, but the Denise Wallace is so different than the other stuff.
Jennifer: Oh, absolutely.
Sharon: You just look at go, “Wow.”
Jennifer: And it reflects the Alaskan culture. She and her husband, Samuel, were obviously inspired a lot by her Alaskan heritage and where she comes from. The materials they work with are entirely made of silver and turquoise and whatnot, but in the museums over there, they’ll start with masks and carvings that were done in the 1800s and early 1900s, and some earlier if you can find them in the different regions up there. She will study those and get inspired to turn the walrus mask, for instance, into a beautiful, big brooch.
I have a whole collection of her jewelry all in creams as well. It’s a beautiful, soft coloring. It’s all creams and yellows and a brownish caramel color, which is nice to wear with clothes because we really have a long summer in Australia. It’s warm here from about the end of October through April, so you tend to wear paler clothing and lighter clothing, and I like to wear more jewelry at work. So, her work is really lovely to combine since you’re able to put it on all the time during the hot summer months. It’s very nice. I like all the very early works of the Pueblo artists called heishi. It’s cream, and it goes beautifully with that as well.
But yeah, Denise’s work represents the Alaskan culture and what goes on up there. Whereas in Southwestern culture, there are hundreds and hundreds of great jewelers who are doing beautiful silversmithing and lapidary. It's a very unique art form. Her son, David, I think he’s one to watch. Dawn is already established as a great jeweler, and she’s been working with him off and on for a long time. David is kind of quiet, and he doesn’t like to get out in the public, but he’s a great carver. I’m excited to watch him and see where he goes.
Sharon: When I go to Santa Fe, I love the Native American jewelry, but I have to temper myself because it’s very easy to come back with all the Southwestern jewelry and artwork and go—
Jennifer: It’s not relevant when you’ve gotten home and you’re not going to put it in your home. Is that what you mean?
Sharon: I’ll wear it. Here and there, I’ll definitely wear it, but it’s like, “Why did I buy 25 pieces? I’m not going to wear that all the time.”
Jennifer: That’s interesting. I dress as a city woman. I don’t wear satin and lace. Maybe I do occasionally, but I wear fine wool things in winter, cashmere, black. I dress as a city woman, which I always have done; I’m from Sydney, for goodness sake. In Double Bay, it’s like the heart of cosmopolitan. It’s like being in New York or Chicago or any city environment. That is where I grew up. So, this is the way I am, but for some reason, I just love wearing interesting sculptural jewelry that is not traditional gold and diamonds, fine chains and little bits and pieces and pearls. I think that’s very pretty, but it doesn’t make a difference when you put it on. It’s pretty and you can wear it with anything, which I guess is a good thing. You can wear it with any kind of clothing.
This jewelry is a piece of wearable sculpture to me. It has impact. It has size. It has color. It has form. It has metal. It just makes me feel right when I wear it, and I wear it all the time. Even when I go to Pilates or I’m walking my dog, or when I’m down at the beach house, I wear a little pair of turquoise earrings. I always take a selection of blue turquoise pieces, maybe some green turquoise pieces to add to my orange oyster shell collection or my red coral collection. I always take plain silver. It’s like a little black dress because it will go with anything. To me, it’s worth putting on every day. It’s to improve the way I feel and the way I look. As I get older, I like to wear even more pieces because I’m comfortable to do it. As I’ve grown up, the jewelry has become better, more significant, higher-end, and I don’t worry anymore about, “Oh, what are people going to think if I wear this?” I just love it and I wear it.
I have a big following now nationally in Australia since the internet came to be and I got my website and all that business happened. When was that? In the early 2000s or something. You worry. You think, “Oh my gosh, now everyone can see what I’m doing. There’s a whole load of beautiful galleries in America. Maybe business will change because everyone can look globally at everything.” But it actually just reinforces that if you do something well and focus on the best, and if you’re knowledgeable about it and you have great quality pieces that are beautiful and aesthetically pleasing, it holds its own. My business has gone from strength to strength since then. We’re open six days a week, 10:00 to 5:00. I’m in here three or four days a week. I’m in the States usually all of August. It used to be two weeks in February, but after Covid, we’ll see whether that’s still happening. That was more on the West Coast, in the San Francisco region. Sometimes if I had enough time, I would go down to the Heard Museum afterwards in March.
Sharon: The Heard Museum?
Jennifer: Yeah, the Heard Museum. I’d see the show there with all the current artists. It’s expensive being away from the gallery, with international airfares, hotel accommodations, car rentals. I’ll take my manager with me, Leslie, who’s been with me for 20 years. He’s very supportive and helps me keep going when you’re in the rental car driving and saying, “Well, I think I should go check these out.” I wouldn’t want to do it by myself. I’ve taken all of my daughters. They’ve been with me a few times. I have three daughters. They’ve all been with me. My sister’s been with me. My mother’s been with me. My father’s been with me. Some girlfriends have been with me. My ex-husband has been with me a few times, but that didn’t work too well. I never drive by myself. I like to travel with someone.
The whole overseas adventure is a very expensive one, to go there and spend a number of weeks and then come back again, but I have to go. I love to go. I like driving around over there, doing the reservations and getting out of the plane at Albuquerque, getting the rental car, driving into Gallop, going on the reservation, going out to Zuni, meeting different artists then ending up back in Santa Fe. I like going to all the old shows, meeting all the people that also love to collect and handle and look for this material, going to Indian markets, seeing more of the artists I’ve been representing for years who are all gathered together in the plaza for two days. It makes it easier for me to visit everyone.
It’s been a great lifestyle. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed it, and it is an oddity. Dealing in North American Indian art on the other side of the world, it’s a very established business. I’ve built incredible relationships. I had hoped one of my daughters might step into it and continue the Four Winds, not that I have any intention of retiring any time soon. My middle daughter points out to me repeatedly, “What? Working for my mom?” I’m like, “Well, it would be nice to keep the operation going forever.”
Sharon: Looking at the map, Double Bay isn’t too far from Bondi Beach, is it?
Jennifer: Oh no, it’s probably 10 minutes by car. Bondi Beach is on the coast on the ocean, and Double Bay is on Sidney Harbor. It’s kind of an elegant, harbor side, upmarket, expensive little shopping area that’s also probably five to 10 minutes from the city. The city is on the harbor. Double Bay is also farther away on the harbor going towards the coast. Then there’s a little finger of land that runs up and down, and then on the other side of the little finger of land is Bondi Beach. So, it’s very close to Bondi Beach.
People who come from other states and internationally stay in Double Bay in one of the hotels, or they stay in the city. We’re very close to the city. They’ll get a taxi or an Uber, or you can get a train or a bus; public transport here is really good. So, you’re smack bang between the ocean coast and the city. I’m about halfway between. It’s a very, very pretty harborside shopping area. I’m trying to think—you know Carmel—
Sharon: Yes, Carmel.
Jennifer: —in California, that feeling that you’re not on a cliff; you’re down on sea level.
Sharon: Are you near Sidney? When you say the city, is that Sidney?
Jennifer: It’s Sidney. Double Bay is one of those smaller suburbs of Sidney. Sidney’s a very big town. I think we have about six million people in Sidney. Double Bay is a five- or 10-minute cab ride from downtown Sidney. You can still call Double Bay Sidney, but it’s a suburb of Double Tree close to Sidney. Most of my clients actually come from New South Wales, which is the state that Sidney is in. We have more clients from Australia now, New Zealand, South Africa, Paris, England, America, scattered all over the place. It’s fun. A lot of people from France and England and New Zealand and different places come to Sidney in January, which is the peak of our summer, to get out of the winter or to visit family or friends they have in Australia. Or they come to see Australia. They visit and travel around.
Sharon: Do Australians wander into your shop and say, “Oh my God, what is this?” What’s the reaction?
Jennifer: Yes, exactly. Back in the early days in the 80s, they would wander in. I was 21 years old back then, and the counter belt is at least $2,500. People would say, “Where do you sell these blue things? Do you make it?” I’d say, “I wish I was so clever. It’s turquoise. It’s made by artists from the Southwest of the USA,” and the talking and educating would go on. We’re starting from there. A lot of them would come in and go, “What is all this stuff, really?”
Then I would get the odd person who was a big collector who would find me. He’d go, “I can’t believe you’re doing this in Sidney, Australia. I’m from London, and I’m collecting the Southwest,” or “They’ve got a gallery where I buy things in London.” You would get some people that knew about it who were already collectors. Then they would talk to other people and say, “Go to that store, the Four Winds Gallery down in Sidney. She has really good material. She’s quite authentic.” It was word of mouth for a long time, doing my shows, plugging away, talking, working six days a week, having no staff. It’s the energy of a 21-year-old woman building a following for it.
Now, 41 years later, I am in Double Bay. I’ve been around. I’ve expanded the gallery. I’ve owned a store, and I’ve been here as a very established business for a long time. Everyone in this region knows me. Anybody who knows anything about turquoise will be out in a restaurant in the city, and if somebody has something turquoise on, they’ll say, “Oh, did you get that at Four Winds?” It’s either, “Yeah,” or, “No, I went on a holiday to Santa Fe.” It’s a commonly used reference point now. You still get the odd person walking in now, but it was more in the first 10 years of having the business that people would walk in who’d never been in before or never heard of it and say, “What’s going on here? What is this all about?”
American Indian jewelry has become more internationally and globally known with the internet, with social media, with all the things that are going on in America, the mining rights and water rights, going to reservations, the interviews that come on NBC or the radio stations or TV stations in America. I do interviews and stories on what’s happening on the tribal reservations and the injustices that are happening. It brings it more to the spotlight, and then it melds into the artwork and what’s going on. So, the beautiful Southwestern American Indian artwork is not as unheard of now as it was in the 80s in Sidney, Australia, when no one on earth knew what any of it was. It’s been a progress of education.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I remember ages ago buying one turquoise ring. Everybody had to have one turquoise ring, and that was it.
Jennifer: Also, when you look at the 70s and the hippie phase and the bikers and flower power, there was all that association with turquoise, bear claws and feathers, which was fun, but that was kind of insane. A lot of people didn’t identify with that, right or wrong. It was like, “We’re going to get into the hippie jewelry.” But I think having all of that and recognizing it as fine art, the labeling doesn’t matter, actually. Yes, it is Southwest and yes, it is Native American Indian. It is fabulous both historically and recently made. But it is a fine art form if you look at how it’s made, how the silver is executed, how the lapidary is done, the history they’ve inherited for generations about how to work with metal or cut stone or drill shells. As a tribal jewelry form, it’s the most sophisticated tribal jewelry form in the world, bar none to any other tribal group. It’s just amazing as an art form.
I like to think that you don’t have to resonate with Southwestern, cowgirl, cowboy, denim, hats and whatnot to love and embrace this art form. It’s just a beautiful, wearable art form irrespective. That’s always been my belief. This is not a gallery where I come to work every day in jeans and boots and a hat. It’s just my thing. It is if you’re from the country or you’ve bought a cattle property, but we’re city people and city folk.
We have paintings and kachina carvings and some pottery. These are beautiful pieces, quite classic in somebody’s home. It's white walls and timber floors. It’s plain and very modern how people decorate today, but with this beautiful piece of artwork. They might have one or two great pots as feature pieces, but they don’t become pottery collectors per se, as I see people in the Southwest do, where there are ledges and ledges built to house dozens and dozens of pots by a particular tribe because they’re a collector. People don’t do that here because our architecture and our lifestyle are very different. They have polished floorboards. They’ll have a lovely, seasoned marble kitchen bench top, and everything’s kind of washed and gray and black and modern and minimal, all of that. Then they’ll have the odd piece as a beautiful art piece in their home, but they’ll also have something from Japan, and they might have an early Australian aboriginal piece, rather than having the whole placed decked down in Southwestern artifacts or paintings.
With jewelry, you find that people can be general jewelry enthusiasts who collect great jewelry from all over the world, but you tend to find that people like the turquoise, the blues and the greys and the strong, big, sculptural silver. You think it’s a really big piece of jewelry, but try and recreate that same belt, for instance, in 18-karat gold set with huge diamonds. It would be millions. It would be unapproachable for a lot of people. So, it’s also the materials that are special. They’re collectable. It’s one-off. It's unique, but at this point, it’s still not treated the same. For instance, this is a huge piece of turquoise in a ring by McKee Platero. That’s large. If you try to replicate that size stone in a ruby or an emerald or a diamond, one, it would be very hard to find. Two, it would be extortionate because it’s so big. But I can secure a natural piece of high-grade turquoise that’s large and beautiful. It’s not artificial and it’s not a copy or a reproduction. It’s the real deal, and that gives me a lot of joy, wearing a unique piece of sculpture.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Barbara Klar
Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright.
Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day.
New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer!
Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky.
Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video.
Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains." Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Barbara Klar’s jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara’s celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Welcome back.
So, is your studio inside your home now?
Barbara: Yes, it is. It always has been. One time, I tried to have my studio in the back room of my store in SoHo. That just didn’t work at all. If they know I’m there, everybody is like, “Is Barbara here?” I could never get any work done. Eventually, I was able to get a building in Williamsburg and have my studios there. It was a great building because it had been a doctor’s office in the 50s, so there was a little living space in the back and the front had been all the examination rooms. That worked out perfectly for my studio at the time.
Sharon: And you’re in Woodstock, New York now?
Barbara: Yes, I am. I love it here.
Sharon: Had you moved there before Covid, or is that just an area you like?
Barbara: I’ve been here about six years now. I’ve been all over the Hudson Valley. I think I moved here prior to Covid. It’s a very arty town and full of weirdos and like-minded people. It’s a cool place. It has the history of Bird-On-A-Cliff, which was where all the Hudson Valley artists started. It started as an arts colony. So, it’s got that history, and it’s nice to be part of a history.
When I had my store—and I loved my store on 7th Steet in the East Village—I was so akin and felt such a vibe from the previous generations of jewelers that had stores on 8th Street in the West Village. It was a complete circle to me, and I feel that way now as well.
Sharon: So, you targeted Woodstock or this area to live in?
Barbara: No, I was going through a breakup. It was very painful. I found a place here. I knew it would be my home and my love. I was lucky. It’s one of those guided journeys.
Sharon: Looking behind you, I can see you have quite a well-developed studio. You have all your tools. It doesn’t seem like you’d be missing anything there.
Barbara: Definitely not. It’s great.
Sharon: Did you start out that way? Did you collect the tools throughout the years?
Barbara: Since 1979, I’ve been collecting tools. There’s always something else you need as a jeweler and a metalsmith. About 10 years ago I sold my house, which was a little bit south of Woodstock, and got rid of everything except my studio and my clothes. That’s where I’m at now, and it feels so good to not be buried with stuff. I just have my workshop, and that’s basically it.
Sharon: That’s the important thing, having your workshop. I don’t know if you still do, but you had a very successful line of men’s jewelry.
Barbara: Yeah, I was one of the first to do men’s jewelry. That was probably in the late 80s, early 90s. I’ve done a lot of men’s. I had a lot of gay male clientele. They were always coming in, and they had a large disposable income. It worked out great. I love to see a man in jewelry. I love what’s happened with the metrosexuals in the last eight or nine years. Even the nonbinary and straight males are feeling more comfortable with jewelry, and I think it’s really great. Coming from a rock background, you see a lot of flamboyancy on stage, and you see a lot of guys flashing metal. I think it looks great.
Sharon: It that what prompted you to develop this line? Did you ever sell it? Was it a production line or was it one-off? How was it?
Barbara: It’s limited production always. I had a friend ask me recently, “Barbara, on your website, why don’t you have a category that’s specifically men’s jewelry?” I said, “I’ll never do that because I can never tell what a man’s going to like.” With all of this large spectrum of gender identity, I can’t tell what somebody’s going to like. That’s not up to me, to decide what men’s jewelry is. So, I never really bought into that, but I know men and kids seem to like my work.
Sharon: They look in your window and come in and say, “I’d like to try that on”?
Barbara: Yeah, especially some of the bigger rings. I was always surprised what was attractive to them. Also, there’s a lot of word of mouth. I never relied on advertising. I got a lot of press, which didn’t seem to do much, but mostly it’s because of word of mouth that people come to me.
Sharon: Is the press how you developed your celebrity clientele? You were mentioning that you have quite a roster or that you’ve done a lot for celebrities.
Barbara: Yeah, that just kind of happened. In my store in SoHo, I used to have what I would call my “deli wall.” You know how you go into a deli in New York and you see all of the celebrities saying, “Oh, thanks for that corned beef sandwich. It was the best I had”? I had that in the background. Over time, celebrities would come in. A lot of stylists would bring celebrities. I developed the deli wall, and it was word of mouth again.
Sharon: I always wonder when I look at a deli wall if they ask people for their signatures, if they have a stack of photos in the back and say, “Would you sign this?” How did that work for you?
Barbara: I’d always ask them. It’s hard to do sometimes. I don’t want to overstep because every celebrity reacts differently to being recognized and interacting, but you’ve just got to do it. It’s funny; I’m impressed, but I know they’re human just like me. On my website, I sometimes look at the marketing stats, and that page is the most visited page. Here in America, we love our celebrities.
I know a lot of them had a big impact on me, so I get it. Once I waited in line for half a day because I made this belt for Tina Turner. She was signing records at Tower Records in New York City. I went up to her and showed her the belt, and I was so excited because she meant a lot me. She got me through a couple of breakups that were pretty devastating. So, I get it. I’m a fan. Definitely, I’m a fan.
Sharon: What did she say when she saw the belt?
Barbara: She was like, “Oh, I love it. I just love it.” She said, “I’m going to wear it.” I never saw her wearing it, but she was very kind and wonderful and gracious.
Sharon: That takes guts on your part, just to show a belt to a celebrity like that.
Barbara: It’s not comfortable for me because I’m very shy. I’m really a shy person. I even tried being in bands. My friends were in bands. I work better behind the scenes, but sometimes you have to jump off that cliff. I’m one of these people that I might be shy, but I’m also brave. I’ll take a risk. I think in these times, with the all the competition out there, especially for jewelry designers, you have to take a risk and you have to be brave.
Sharon: Yes, absolutely. It’s amazing to me; so many people I talk to who make jewelry, they say they’re shy, but you have to put yourself out there. You have to put your product out there. You can’t just sit in your studio.
Barbara: You can’t, and you also have to be able to talk about your work. There was a relationship I had at one time, and we had these arguments because he would make this incredible work. I would say, “What does it mean? How would you explain it? How would you define it?” and he would say, “Well, I’m not going to do that. If I have to do that, it negates everything. People should be able to draw their own opinions about what I’m saying.” I was like, “No, I don’t agree. I think you should be able to say what your intention was, how you see it. If it’s interpreted differently, that’s an extra plus in my mind.” I think everybody should be able to talk about their work.
Sharon: Especially if you are doing what I’ll call art jewelry. You’re not walking into a place like Tiffany, let say. That’s the only one of its kind.
Barbara: Exactly. The one-of-a-kinds are like that. When I had my store in SoHo, the greatest thing that was the most fun for me was making an inspirational thing that I thought nobody would ever wear or buy and putting it in the window, because that would get people to come in. They were outrageous; they were huge, and often I would sell those pieces. It was a shock to me.
Sharon: How did it feel to see celebrities, such as Steve Jordan, wearing what you made?
Barbara: It’s pretty incredible. Once it leaves my hands, it takes on its own journey. It’s an ego boost for a minute, but then you’ve got to make a living the rest of the time. I’ve been in this business so long, and you think, “Oh my God, I got my stuff on the Rolling Stones tour. It’s so great.” It’s impressive to people when you’re at a party and you can say that. Ultimately, it means nothing. Has he mentioned my name or anything on the Rolling Stones tour? No. That may never happen, and that’s fine. I don’t care. It’s fun.
Sharon: Is it validation to other people if you’re showing your work or talking about it, and you say a certain celebrity wore it? Isn’t that validation in a sense?
Barbara: It is. I try not to buy into that too much. The validation really comes from myself. I know what I’m doing. It’s fine. I don’t really need that, but that’s an extra special perk, I must say.
Sharon: A validation for you, but also—I’m not sure it would sway me, but for a lot of people—it depends on who the celebrity is, but it could sway somebody. They might say, “If ABC person wore it, then I want one like it.”
Barbara: Oh yeah, definitely. It works that way. To a lot of my rock-and-roll friends, the fact that I’ve sold a lot of work to Steven Tyler or Steve Jordan means something. Sometimes they’ll come to me with special commissions. One of my first commissions when I had my store in SoHo was for a client who had been to London, and he was obsessed with Keith Richards and the bracelet he always wears. He wears this incredible bracelet made by Crazy Pig Studios in London. He came to me and said he wanted me to make a bracelet like the one Keith Richards wears. I said, “Why would you have me do it? Why don’t you dial Crazy Pig in London and get the same bracelet?” He said, “Oh, I was in there. They were mean. They were really intimidating. I don’t want to give them my money.” So, I said, “All right. It’s going to be a little different, but I’ll make one for you,” and I made this incredible bracelet. I still sell it today. It’s the Keith Richards bracelet. It’s a fun story.
Sharon: Wow! Yeah, that is a fun story. You’re also writing a book now. Tell us a little about the title.
Barbara: Titles are interchangeable, but this has been the title for a while. It’s called “You’re So Talented.” I’m not sure what the subtitle is going to be exactly, but it could be “It Takes More Than Talent” or “Confessions of a Worker Bee.” It’s basically about my stories, my experiences not being a businessperson and being more of an artist, surviving New York. A lot of stories. It’s geared towards kids who have a lot of talent, but that’s not all it takes. Talent is like two percent of what it takes to be successful and to be creative and to be a survivor.
Surviving in New York City was such an incredible challenge, especially when you’re living and working on the street level. You can’t control what comes into your space. You don’t know how business is done. I had just opened my store in the East Village. I was 24 or something, and this big bruiser guy comes into my store and is like, “You gotta pay me for sanitation pickup.” I said, “What? I have to pay for sanitation? I thought the landlord took care of that.” He said, “No, we pick it up.” I’m like, “Well, how much do you want?” He said, “We want $75 a month.” I said, “What? I can’t pay that. I can barely pay my rent.” He said, “Well, how much can you pay?” and I said, “Well, I can pay like $15.” He said, “O.K.” and he walked out. Wouldn’t you know, every month he was there for his $15. It was crazy.
Sharon: You were honest, but you had to become a businessperson over the years.
Barbara: It was such a challenge. I have to tell you, another successful designer once said to me, “Nothing teaches you about money like not having any.” I think that was one of the wisest words, because I learned how to become my own bookkeeper, my own press person, my own rep. I also had to pay all the employee taxes, navigate the business end of it, try to get business loans. That was such an experience. I heard 2Roses talking about this on your podcast, too, about how business should be included in art school training. I was totally thrown out there and totally naïve.
Sharon: It sounds like the school of hard knocks.
Barbara: Definitely.
Sharon: And that’s what the book is about?
Barbara: Yes. People say, “You’re so talented.” If I had a quarter for every time somebody said that to me, I’d be rich. No, it’s not about that. It’s about perseverance, and it’s about hearing a lot of “no’s.” It’s about coming through the back door instead of the front door. The book is about things that were on my journey that were important and meaningful to me, and that I think young people could learn something from about moving to New York as an artist. It’s very different now. I don’t claim to know the ins and outs of New York City at this point in life, but I think my journey is still relevant.
Sharon: Definitely. I’m curious how you took the “no’s,” because you must have heard a lot of “no’s.”
Barbara: So many. It gets you to that next point. A no is actually good, because you’re forced to meet up with another solution or another path. I’ll never forget; I wanted to be like Robert Lee Morris, who had his work everywhere and bought a ranch in New Mexico and everything. I remember being tested for QVC in the 80s. They were having young designers on QVC. I did the test, and I heard them in the background saying, “I don’t know if she works well on camera. She might be a little too quirky. Her work is a little too eclectic.” I was like, “Oh God, really?” So, I was like, “You know what? I don’t care. That’s my thing. Maybe I don’t want to be a production person.”
I looked into having my work made overseas and all of that, and I realized, in the end, I would just be a manufacturer. For me, the art was more important. The hands-on making was more important. The person-to-person contact, communication with my clients and my employees was really important to me. I enjoy that way more than if I had been basically a business owner.
Sharon: It’s having the mark of the hand on it. If I know that you crafted it or somebody crafted it, it has much more meaning, I think.
Barbara: Absolutely. It means a lot to me. Recently I had a client whose mother was a big jewelry collector and had a couple of Art Smith rings. The client had lost one of the rings in the pair in Provincetown. It went into the ocean, gone. I was able to hold the matching ring in my hand and look at it and see a signature, because the client wanted me to recreate this ring, which I did do. But the whole time I was making this ring, I kept imaging Art. The ring was covered in dots of silver and pink gold and yellow gold. It’s a beautiful ring, very asymmetrical. The dots were raised like a half a millimeter off the band, and there were like 50 dots on this ring. So, I’m thinking of him making this ring in his studio. Every dot had to have a peg soldered onto the back before it was soldered onto the band. I did that 50 times, and I’m thinking, “My God, this guy was tenacious.” I had a lot of respect.
Sharon: How did you decide to start writing a blog? You write a blog. How did that come about?
Barbara: I really enjoy writing, and there are things I wanted to say that the work couldn’t say by itself. One of the things I’ve always been obsessed with since I was a child are charms. When I was five, Sherry Carr across the street from me had a shoebox full of charms, like the bubblegum charms, and I coveted that box. I was obsessed with that box. Every time I would see it, I would be like, “Show me the charms.” I wanted to knock Sherry out so I could get that charm. I started collecting charms at a very young age. They mean a lot to me, and they mean a lot to my clients. I talked about that in one of my blog posts. I think that was one of my first blogs, talking about charms and the meaning they hold for us. I think the spiritual side is important to me, the emotion you put to it and how it goes on the body. It’s for the body.
Sharon: Well, you have very eclectic jewelry, very unique jewelry. Barbara, thank you so much for being here today.
Barbara: I loved it. Thanks so much.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Barbara Klar
Barbara Klar was born in Akron, OH, with an almost obsessive attention for details. The clasps on her mother's watch, the nuts, bolts and hinges found on her father's workbench, the chrome on her brother's '54 Harley Hog...Barbara's love of hardware and metal and "how things worked" was ignited and continues to burn bright.
Coming of age in the Midwest, Barbara was part of the burgeoning glam rock explosion making the scene, discovering Pere Ubu, DEVO, The Runaways, Iggy Pop and David Bowie in out-of-the-way Cleveland nightclubs. Cue Barbara's love of music and pop culture that carries on to this day.
New York...late 1970's, early 80's. Barbara began making "stage wear" for friends in seminal punk rock bands including Lydia Lunch, The Voidoids and The Bush Tetras, cementing Barbara's place in alt. rock history as the go-to dresser for those seeking the most stylish, the most cutting edge accessories. She certainly caught the attention of infamous retailer Barneys New York, who purchased Barbara's buffalo skin pouch belts, complete with "bullet loops" for lipstick compartments. Pretty prestigious for a first-time designer!
Famed jeweler Robert Lee Morris invited Barbara into a group show at Art Wear and Barbara joyfully began to sell her jewelry for the first time. Barbara opened her first standalone store, Clear Metals, in NYC's East Village during the mid - 80's. In 1991 she moved that store into the fashion and shopping Mecca that is SoHo, where it was located for ten years until Barbara has moved her life and studio upstate to the Hudson Valley. She continues to grow her business, her wholesale line and her special commission work while still focusing on those gorgeous clouds in the country sky.
Barbara's work has been recognized on the editorial pages of Vogue, WWD, The New York Times and In-Style Magazine as well as featured on television shows including "Friends," "Veronica's Closet" and "Judging Amy." Film credits have included "Meet The Parents," Wall Street," "High Art" and The Eurythmics' "Missionary Man" video.
Barbara has been hailed in New York Magazine as being one of the few jewelry designers who "will lend her eclectic touch to create just about anything her clients request, from unique wedding bands and pearl-drop earrings to chunky ID bracelets and mediaeval-style chains."
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Barbara Klar’s jewelry has been worn by the like of David Bowie, Steve Jordan and Joan Jett, but Barbara’s celebrity fans are just the icing on the cake of her long career. What really inspires her is connecting with clients and finding ways to make their ideas come to fruition. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the crash course in business she got when she opened her store in 1984 in New York City; why making jewelry is often an engineering challenge; and why she considers talent the least important factor in her success. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Barbara Klar, founder and owner of Clear Metals. Barbara began her work as a jeweler in 1980 in New York and has grown her business from there. She has a roster of celebrity clients. She has also developed a successful line of men’s jewelry. Steve Jordan, who replaced Charlie Watts throughout a recent Rolling Stones tour, sported her jewelry throughout. Most recently, Barbara has become interested in reliquaries. She is also writing a book. We’ll hear more about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the program.
Barbara: Thank you, Sharon. I’m so happy to be here talking about my favorite subject, jewelry.
Sharon: So glad to have you. I want to hear about everything going on. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you always like it?
Barbara: I was obsessed with my mother’s jewelry box. She wasn’t a huge jewelry collector, but she had some gemstone rings from the time my father and her spent in Brazil in the semiprecious capital, Rio. I just loved her selection and got obsessed.
Sharon: Did you decide you wanted to study jewelry then?
Barbara: No, I really didn’t. My sister was the artist in the family, and I was always trying to play catch-up with her. Eventually I took a class at Akron University in Akron. Well, I made some jewelry in high school out of ceramics. I loved to adorn myself. I loved fashion. I loved pop culture. I was always looking at what people were wearing, and jewelry was so interesting to me because it was so intimate. It was something you could put on you body, like a ring. You could look at it all the time, and it became part of your persona, part of your identity. Sometimes it represented the birth of a child.
I used to go to the museum in Cleveland a lot, and I started seeing these top knuckle rings on women in the Medieval and Renaissance paintings. I ran home and went to my mother’s jewelry box because I remembered she had my sister’s baby ring in there. I put it on my little pinkie finger. She saw me wearing it and she got very upset, but I started scouting flea markets until I could find my own top knuckle ring. I wear a lot of them at this point in life.
Sharon: Wow! We’ll have to have a picture of that. I can see your fingers. You have a ring on every finger, it looks like.
Barbara: Practically.
Sharon: So, you went to the Cleveland Institute of Art. Did you think you’d be an artist or a graphic designer? What did you think you’d do?
Barbara: Like I said, when I went to Akron University, I studied beginning jewelry. My teacher at the time noticed I had an aptitude, and he said, “If you really want to study jewelry making, you should go to the Cleveland Institute of Art.” At that point, I made an application and I got in.
Sharon: Did you study metalsmithing there? When you say jewelry making, what did you study?
Barbara: It was called metalsmithing. It was a metalsmithing program, and at that point in time, Cleveland had a five-year program. You didn’t really hit your major until your third year, so you had a basic foundation of art history and drawing and painting. It was really a great education. I feel like I got a master’s of fine arts rather than a bachelor of fine arts. When we studied, our thesis was to do a holloware project. A lot of people did tea sets. I did a fondue set and it took me two years to complete. It was a great training, but it was also very, very frustrating because it was a very male-dominated profession.
Sharon: Do you still have the fondue set?
Barbara: I do. I entered it into a show, and they dropped it and it got dented. I have yet to repair that. Over the years, the forks have gone missing, but I have incredible photographs of it, thank God.
Sharon: Wow! So, you were the only fondue set among all the tea sets.
Barbara: Yeah, I was. I had to be different.
Sharon: You opened your own place right after you graduated. Is that correct?
Barbara: Pretty much. All my friends were moving to New York City, so I said, “Hey, I’ll go.” I’d been commuting there because my boyfriend at the time was Jim Jarmusch, and he had moved to Columbia to study. I had been going there off and on for a couple of years and when everybody moved to New York City. I was like, “Why not?” So, I went.
Sharon: How far is it from Cleveland or where you were going to school?
Barbara: It’s about 500 miles.
Sharon: So, you would fly?
Barbara: No, I would drive. Those were the days you could find parking in the city.
Sharon: That was a long time ago. I’m impressed that you would open your own place right after you graduated. Some people tell me they knew they could never work for anybody else. Did you have that feeling, or did you just know you wanted your own place?
Barbara: No, I didn’t. It took me a couple of years. I was in New York a couple of years. I moved in ’79 and I opened my store in ’84. One thing I did discover in those five years is that the jobs I did have—thank God my mother insisted that I should have secretarial skills to fall back on in high school. She said, “You’re not going to depend on any man.” So, she got me those skills, and I became a very fast typist. I realized eventually that to save my creativity, I needed to have a job that was completely unrelated to jewelry work. I would work during the day, and I found a jewelry store where I could clean the studio in exchange for bench time. I started doing that. A lot of my friends were in rock-and-roll bands, and I started making them stage ware when I could work in the studio for free. It just evolved into that before I opened my store.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry business today. Do you still make it?
Barbara: Oh yes, I still make everything. I have one part-time assistant. I no longer wholesale. I do a little bit of gallery work. I wish there was more, but I consider myself semi-retired. I’m trying to work on my book. Mostly I do commission work, and I do maybe one or two shows a year. I like to say I have a cult following that keep me in business.
Sharon: When you say you have a cult following, do rock-and-rollers call you and say, “I need something for a show”? How does that work?
Barbara: Pretty much. I’m lucky enough to have been in this business since 1984, so a lot of my private clients, now their children are shopping with me and they’re getting married. It’s really nice. I feel very blessed to have that.
Sharon: Yeah, especially if it’s a second generation.
Barbara: That means something to me because they have a different sense of style. The fact that they would find my work appealing moves me, makes my heart sing.
Sharon: Do you find that you go along with their sense of style? If you have one style you were doing for their parents, let’s say, do you find it easy to adapt? Do you understand what they’re saying?
Barbara: I do. I try to understand. First of all, I listen. I’m a good listener, but I’m still old-fashioned. I still like streetwear. I still love pop culture. A lot of times I’ll ask them what they’re looking for, and I can always tell. Even when I had my store, when somebody would walk into the store, I can get a sense of their style. I’m one of these designers who can design very different, very eclectic work, from simple and modern to intricate and whimsical. That used to be a problem for me in my early days because the powers that be—I had a rep. They were like, “Barbara, your work is so different. Why don’t you try to make it coherent?” I couldn’t. I tried to and I came up with beautiful lines, but for me, the joy is the variation and never knowing what I’m going to come up with.
Sharon: Is that what’s kept your attention about jewelry?
Barbara: I think so. And being challenged by commission work and by getting an idea and trying to make it come to fruition. I actually think jewelry designers are as much architects and engineers as anything else, because you get an idea and you’re like, “How am I going to make that happen?” That keeps me inspired and challenged.
Sharon: I remember watching a jeweler making a ring. This was several years ago, but they were talking about how jewelry is engineering because of the balance and all of that.
Barbara: Oh yes, totally. There was time when I really wanted to study CAD. I looked into it a bit, and I realized you also have to be able to draw in order to do CAD. It really helps if you have some knowledge of metalsmithing or jewelry making before you enter into a program like that, because you have to be able to visualize it and see how it’s going to come together, how it’s technically going to work. That interests me a lot.
Sharon: So, that’s not a problem for you. You can do that in terms of visualizing or seeing how it would come together.
Barbara: It’s a challenge. I’ll find myself getting inspired by an idea and spending a couple of days or even a week thinking about how it’s going to be engineered, how it’s going to fit together. I made a tiara for the leader of a local performance group. He’s very flamboyant, and he sings and has a beautiful band. I made him a crown out of a crystal chandelier that I got at a flea market. It was an engineering challenge. It was really fun.
Sharon: It sounds like it. I don’t know if I could even imagine something like that. I wanted to ask you about something you said a little while ago, that you wished there were more galleries who wanted your work. What was it you said?
Barbara: I’ve been making my living doing limited-production items that sell very well. I have a classic piece—I call it the pirate, which is a lockdown mechanism earring that is kind of my bread and butter. But what I’ve been doing in my off time is making, like you mentioned in your opening, reliquaries or pieces that are more art than jewelry specifically. That’s what I’ve been doing during Covid and everything. It's like a secret group of pieces I’ve been working on. It would be nice to have a gallery to show them in, but they’re very unique and different, so I haven’t found that yet.
Sharon: Tell us a little bit about the reliquaries. Tell us what they look like and what they’re supposed to represent.
Barbara: I got obsessed with reliquaries when I was going to the Cleveland Institute of Art because right across the street was the Cleveland Museum of Art. I spent a lot of time there, and they have a fabulous armor hall for armor and a 17th century room that’s filled with religious reliquaries. I was fascinated by how these fragments of bone or hair were incorporated into jewelry and what they represented as objects, how people would pray to these things or display these items with great meaning. It really moved me, and I started making them in college covertly. I continued that living through the AIDS crisis and now Covid.
I did some pieces recently for people who had lost their loved ones, incorporating pieces of hair or fragments of letters from their loved ones. I find that so meaningful because you have something to hold in your hands that gives you a link to this person whom you’ve lost. I made a beautiful reliquary for an ex of mine which was based on the dog they lost. Buddy was its name. I got a piece of the dog’s tail when he died and made a little charm out of it. It was under a little window. Then I had another artist make this beautiful portrait of the dog when it was a baby. I made a little locket-type thing that could be put on your desk, or it could be hung on the wall or you could wear it. That’s what I describe as tabletop jewelry.
Sharon: That’s interesting. When I think of a reliquary, I think of exactly what you’re saying, but without the jewelry—a piece of bone, hair, whatever, that people venerate.
Barbara: Yeah, absolutely.
Sharon: How do you incorporate it? You’re saying for this piece you put it in a locket, but how else have you incorporated it?
Barbara: Pretty much lockets, things that open. I have another piece I made that was based on a monk. I found a little porcelain painter’s image—it was about three inches tall—at a flea market years ago. I could hardly afford it. It was hand-painted porcelain. I kept it in my bench drawer for years, 20 years probably, and one day I pulled it out and thought, “You know, this monk needs to be seen.” So, I made a beautiful locket. It’s probably about four inches long that you too can display it on your desk. It has little doors that open, and you can hang it on your wall or you can wear it. It’s a very large piece, obviously, if you’re going to wear it, but it’s a statement piece and it’s very precious.
I did this piece actually about 10 years ago after living through the AIDS crisis. My friend, one of my clients, looked at this monk and said, “I know who that is.” I did the research. It’s on my blog. It is this monk who was from a very wealthy family that gave his life to treat lepers in Spain. He was the patron saint of healers. It touched me so deeply that I was creating this piece after everything I’d watched and lived through with Covid, with the AIDS crisis.
Sharon: Wow! Do pieces hit you as you’re going through a flea market? Do they hit you and you say, “That would be perfect”? How is that?
Barbara: I’m a collector. I collect things. I’m fascinated. I love to look at things. One time at a flea market when I had my store in Soho, I found this—I didn’t know what it was. It was like a little skeleton paw. It had no fur on it. It was a little skeleton about two inches long, probably a racoon’s hands. I used to make incredible windows to get people to come into the store. It was Halloween. At the same flea market, I had gotten some of the old-fashioned glass milk containers that used to have the paper caps on top. So, I had gotten those, and I thought, “I’m going to do a Lizzie Borden window.” I made Lizzie this incredible watch fob, and hanging from that was this little skeleton paw inside the milk container. It was great. You never know. I sometimes hold onto things until it’s like, “Whoa, O.K. Now’s the time.”
Sharon: I’m imaging it. It’s a drawerful of things, a shoebox full of things that you paw through and say, “Oh, this would be perfect.”
Barbara: Absolutely. That’s the great thing about being an artist. You never know when it’s going to hit. Like I tell people, I would never not have my studio inside my home, because you never know when you’re going to be inspired and have to make something.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kirsten Everts
Kirsten Everts is a jewelry dealer and the founder of FRAM, a jewelry business specializing in buying, selling, and valuing 20th century jewels. Kirsten founded FRAM in early 2018 after completing the Graduate Gemology course at GIA and a further 20 years acquiring experience in fields varying from auction (Christie’s, London and Bonhams, Paris) to retail (de GRISOGONO, Geneva) and art advisory (Gurr Johns, London). Kirsten holds a permanent stand on Portobello Road in London, and she participates annually at international jewelry trade fairs in Miami and Las Vegas.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
It’s not easy to get a stand on London’s Portobello Road, but with tenacity and some luck with timing, jewelry dealer Kirsten Everts scored a permanent spot to sell her unusual 20th century jewels. Since then, Kirsten has found a group of loyal clients who love “weird” jewelry as much as she does. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why Portobello Road is changing; her strategies for choosing the best vintage jewelry; and why she will never sell another style of jewelry, even if it means making less money. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my guest is Kirsten Everts. Kirsten is a jewelry dealer in West London on Portobello Road. Welcome back.
Was it difficult? It sounds like it was difficult. You had to knock on a lot of doors to get into Portobello.
Kirsten: Yes, the two years before Covid, it was a very vibrant, highly sought-after, extremely busy Saturday morning market. Nobody wanted to cede their showcase to anyone new, but I kept asking. Then, what I was given at the time was a stand when someone was ill. I didn’t know until Wednesday or Thursday of the week whether I was able to go. That left me two days to get my act together, and it was quite a challenge. Slowly it became a more general thing. I got my own stand in a different gallery, but I wanted to be in the one next door because that one had a better vibe, so I had to ask for that.
These were very different times. This was when you could hardly even push your way through, there were so many people. That was 2018. I suspect in the 70s and 80s it would have been even more so. I’m quite sad I didn’t see it then because it must have been something to be there. Portobello, sadly, is changing a lot. I’m quite sad to think that what’s probably going to happen is we’ll have more costume jewelry dealers who are going to take up more space than the actual antique and vintage dealers using real materials, real diamonds, real gemstones. I don’t know how long this is going to last.
Sharon: I think being crowded is all relative. I haven’t been there for a long time, but you still had to push past a lot of people. It was nice to see. It was more than pleasantly crowded. I would have loved to have had the place to myself to take my time, but it wasn’t crowded the way I think of something being so crowded you can’t move. What is it that you like about dealing and buying and selling jewelry?
Kristen: That’s a good question. As a relative newcomer, I think it’s the fact that you can buy something with your very own money. Buying is easy; buying well is less easy. But to buy something with your own money that you have to stand behind is another thing. For me, selling is a small victory each time not only financially—because sometimes it’s not really a financial victory—but it’s an affirmation of what you do, your style and your taste.
For me, it’s always about the relationships more than anything else, which might be the wrong way of business, but I don’t feel that. Now, because I’m a little more established, I enjoy the fact that people come to me and say, “Oh, I think I’ve got something for you.” There’s nothing better. They might slightly put you in a box because you do midcentury jewelry. Maybe they think you do only that, which is untrue, but I think it’s a huge compliment when people pull you over and say, “You must have a look at this,” or “Have you seen this at auction? It’s got your name written all over.” I think that’s a compliment. It shows that you’ve been around for a while, even though it’s only been five years. I like that side of the business.
I also like going into partnerships with people who have an equal eye for something more unique, as my jewelry can be, and who are willing to share knowledge or curiosity. I think that’s what keeps it going, and the fact that you never really know what you’re going to see on any day at any given time. I see jewelry all day long, whether it’s on a screen when you’re going through auctions, or when somebody calls you up and says, “Hey, my grandmother’s just given me something. Can you help me?” More often than not, it’s lower value or not that interesting, but it’s still good to stay in touch with those prices and that kind of jewelry.
Every now and then, you hit something and think, “My gosh, this is fantastic. I need to take it away and think about it because I can’t give you a price now.” Everyone’s very happy; they just want an honest result. If that means you need to go home and do some research, most people are more than happy to do that, but I say that from my level. If we’re dealing in hundreds of thousands of pounds, maybe people are expecting more. But for what I do, it’s a very friendly give and take, and I enjoy that freedom. I can be exactly who I am. I have no employees, and I can be myself. I think that’s really important.
Sharon: Do you find it hard to let go of certain pieces if you really like them?
Kristen: I have absolutely not a single inch of hoarding in me. If I like a piece—and I do like a lot of my own pieces—I will wear it for a week or so. After a week, something will change in me and I say, “I’m ready to sell you now.” I’ve sold one or two things I know I will never again see in my life. I have always said to them, “If you no longer want this, I am happy to buy it back, because I will never see this again.” So, maybe some of these pieces will come back. With regard to jewelry, I have no collector mind at all. I prefer to collect ceramics, or I prefer to collect memories sailing or going to the opera with friends. With jewelry, I’m very matter of fact.
Sharon: It probably works better for you if you’re not so tied to it. I think I’d have a hard time, and I hear dealers who say they have a hard time letting pieces go. Do people come to you and say, “I want a particular piece of jewelry; I’m looking for an engagement ring” or something like that?
Kristen: Yes, with regard to engagement rings, which is really not my thing because an engagement ring is a very emotional thing, and you’re making something for someone who is so emotionally involved with someone else. I don’t usually know these clients. They are referred to me. It can get quite emotional. I’m happy to do that; it’s not what I enjoy most, but I’m lucky enough to be the exclusive, go-to person in this country for a professional sports bond, which means that the manager of this sports team, in this case golf, sends all these young athletes or professional golfers to me to do their engagement rings. That came out of the blue. It came through a contact of mine based in Europe who didn’t want to do it. It’s turned out to be a really good relationship, especially with the manager. These are all young kids. I’ve been there myself with an engagement ring. I know what it’s like. And because they were referrals, a referral will come to you if the experience has been good. They always come to me having heard a great story from another golfer or friend, and it’s actually an easy, pleasant job.
I enjoy sourcing stones, in this case diamonds. I try and steer them towards what I prefer, which are old cuts, old European and mine cuts, rather than the brand-new stone that’s fresh off the wheel. I much prefer those, but I do it gently because, of course, I cannot impose my taste. Funny enough, if I compare the two and show them both, they will go with the old cut, which makes it more pleasant for me because I prefer these diamonds.
Before I would do all the jewelry making for them with my jeweler, but I realized that was very time-consuming and I didn’t actually enjoy it. So, I sell them the diamond, everyone’s happy, and then I send them to my jeweler and he does everything with them directly. First of all, it means they save a little money because they’re not paying me a service charge, but they actually get to design it with the jeweler rather than me being in the middle with thousands of WhatsApps going between two entities. It works really well. They’re happy, and they know they’re saving money. So, I do enjoy engagement rings.
Sharon: When you went first to Portobello, you said you hadn’t known about it when somebody sent you there. What were your thoughts about it?
Kristen: It’s extremely daunting. I remember coming there for the first time and seeing a very long street on a downhill slope. For me, I was still young to this country. I had lived here 20 years before, but I was very European. Hearing these wonderful London accents, people shouting at each other, setting up their stands, it was almost like My Fair Lady. I had no idea, but I loved it because you can feel that energy there. All the silver dealers were outside at the time—I don’t know whether it’s still like that—with plates and door knobs and all sorts of things, and you understand that behind the scenes, big things are happening for a lot of them. The knives and forks and the little Victorian brooches you see displayed are not what’s keeping them going. I found fascinating. It was daunting, because you had to insert yourself with these people who run the place, who, by the way, are wonderful. Try and get an appointment with them.
They were never where they said they were going to be. I didn’t know which numbers belonged to which buildings in Portobello. It was challenging, but I understood it had to happen this way. This was going to be the part of my education I had never actually had. It’s fine to sit in a nice, big chair behind a big, beautiful wooden desk at Christie’s and have people check what you’re doing, but the actual responsibility was not there. If I made a mistake, I wasn’t going to be fired. I wasn’t going to lose money. They weren’t going to cut my salary. When I joined Portobello five years ago, I think I was a bit of a late bloomer, but at 45, I was actually ready to tackle that on my own and to make friends and see how these things worked. It wasn’t easy. It was daunting. It really was, but they were encouraging. It was great fun, most of all.
What happened, and what still happens, is that you can lock up your stand, go for a little walk, and come across something where somebody doesn’t know what they have, but you do. Then, all of a sudden, your output is better. You’re there to see, but you’re also buying. That also makes money. It really isn’t just selling. When I’m at Portobello, I set up and actually go for a very long walk and see what everyone has. I ask them, “What’s in your safe? Have you got something more than what you’re showing?” I spend a lot of time trying to find something that will make me money. Then I’ll go back when I know my clients come around, because my clients are mostly private clients. They’ll come in from about 8:30-9:00, so I’ve got a good hour-and-a-half to do this for myself, and it works. So, I like doing both, and Portobello is extraordinary. I really hope it doesn’t succumb to a lower level of jewelry or antiques.
Sharon: Do you see that happening now?
Kristen: Yes, sadly I do. I really do. It’s not anyone’s fault. It’s just that at the moment in this country, I think there is a bit of a lack of jewelry. This comes through Brexit, mainly, through the climate post-Covid, through people packing up. I do see a slight decline at Portobello in the quality of goods since the last five years. Yesterday, a client called me up and said, “I’ve got about 40 pieces of jewelry to sell. Can you take them to Portobello?” That’s rare, but I do have 40 pieces of jewelry to take tomorrow. There used to be a lot more with a lot more dealers. I don’t see that anymore. I think everyone is a little bit in the same basket, where it’s a bit more difficult to find jewelry. We’ve become, sadly, such an island now with Brexit. A lot of people are concentrating only in the U.K., and there sometimes seems to not be enough jewelry to go around.
Sharon: So, you don’t think it’s worldwide or Europe-wide?
Kristen: It could be. We see each other every Saturday in and Saturday out. When I go to Paris or the mainland, I get excited because I’m seeing jewelry I haven’t seen. Likewise for American visitors or dealers; they’re feeling a different vibe and seeing other jewelry dealers. When we went to the Miami and Las Vegas shows this year because we exhibit there—and when I say we, it’s me and another dealer, and sometimes even three of us. There was a very different energy in America. I almost felt there was more money to spend there, or there was a greater need or thirst for antique jewelry. I do midcentury, so I have fewer clients coming from there, but they’re very excited to see you in the flesh and to see something in the flesh, because otherwise it’s on Instagram or in a photograph. I don’t actually know about other countries, but I hear it because I speak to my colleagues and friends in Europe, and they are saying the same.
Sharon: What did you do during Covid? Did you shut down, or did you go online?
Kristen: I did shut down. I spoke with a friend of mine who does something to the likes of website analysis about what can be done for e-commerce and what can’t, and I think his conclusion was, “I think your jewelry is so different that you can’t actually sell this online.” Selling online means—I will use a very blunt example, but let’s say you have an enamel pansy brooch. If you’re into jewelry collecting or if you’re a dealer, you know approximately what it should feel like, what it should weigh, whether the enamel is damaged or not, is the pin on the back correct, has anything been altered. You know more or less what it should cost.
But I have mobile bangles by people nobody’s ever heard of. I know them because they’re artists from Denmark or Sweden from the post-war era made in gold, which is superbly rare for Scandinavians, dated and signed from 1963. I can’t sell that online. You can’t do it. When that friend said, “I don’t think you are a candidate for online selling,” I thought, “O.K., well, then I’ll do something else. I’ll just build a website,” which I had never gotten around to. So, that was interesting. That was a fun experience, to do a website on your own. That led to inquiries. It’s not up to date now, but it should be and it will be.
What I did do is I much more developed my Instagram. I spent a lot of time trying to make it look homogenous, trying to find the words that will get you the right customers. I had never really spent any time on Instagram. So, I did that, and that’s turned out to be quite good. Even though my account is still quite small—I haven’t got thousands and thousands of followers—the ones that follow me are good, kind and supportive.
Sharon: I would imagine, based on what you’re describing, that it wouldn’t be a real young customer because I think you would have to have some maturity to appreciate what you’re looking at.
Kristen: Yes, exactly. That’s why I love having these—we can call them mature—40-plusers because they concur with you. They say, “Yes, this is a very wacky mobile bracelet and I love it. I probably can’t wear it much, but it is a work of art. I want this.” That’s wonderful.
Sharon: Do you think because you grew up in the Netherlands and around the world, you have more appreciation for these as art pieces?
Kristen: That’s funny. I was thinking about that question even though you hadn’t said it. I was questioning myself earlier today. I think there’s something in me I can’t quite explain which attracts me to, like I mentioned earlier, the industrial and the groundbreaking, a group of people who—we call it jewelry, but actually I think they were calling it wearable art. The Dutch in particular in the 60s were hugely sponsored by the government to get the country going again after the post-war period. There were some very nutty creations that came out of that, but there were some very important, groundbreaking forms and materials that were being used. That really resonates with me. I don’t want to call myself modern, but I think I am. My flat is extremely modern. I don’t like anything fussy. I think it’s the Scandinavian things. I like practicality, but it’s got to be adorning. I forgotten your question, but I’m hoping this is—
Sharon: I was asking if your appreciation for pieces of jewelry as art pieces is because of your background.
Kristen: Yes, wearable art jewelry, I need that. For me to have a fizzy moment, I need it to be very unique and groundbreaking and daring. I think that’s great fun. For me, that’s special. I’d much rather have something by a wacky Danish mobile maker who made for children in the 60s and 70s and make a bracelet for his wife, of which there’s only one and that was never done again. It’s different. The Calder jewelry, which I probably can never afford, or the Art Smith of America, I love all that. They were real artists. That makes me take much more interest than a love bangle or a Victorian enamel pansy brooch.
Sharon: Do you wear some of the unique pieces yourself, or do you just collect them?
Kristen: No, I wear them. I found a system where when I wear my own jewelry, I can quite easily sell it off my body, so to speak. Time and time again it happens: I wear something for myself and I’ll cross someone in the street, not a random customer, but somebody who I know, and they will say, “My gosh, I would like to buy that.” Sometimes when I’m tired of a piece and it needs to sell, I wear it and it will sell. So yes, I wear them. I’ve yet to find a piece that I fall completely in love with and am incapable of selling. I think I don’t have that bug.
Sharon: I suppose it’s good for somebody in your business. We talked about this, but you said you made some notes about the questions I had asked. I want to know if I’ve covered everything or if there’s more you wanted to add.
Kristen: I must have a look. As a jewelry journey, I think it was important for me to mention the university. I was lucky enough to go university, and for that university degree of applied arts, I was taught a section, a module, that I wasn’t expecting at all to be taught. The module was maybe six months long. Sometime in that module, it spiked an interest in me for jewelry I never thought I would like. It’s so inherently who I am that I almost had to make peace with falling in love with a type of jewelry that is from a really small section in the history of jewelry.
I thought, “Can I survive loving this?” I think I go through ups and downs thinking, “No, I must start buying Victorian enameled pansy brooches because that will be my bread and butter.” But when I do, it betrays who I am. So, I sell less, but I’m selling what I love. I thought that was important to put across because I struggle sometimes. I struggle sometimes when I’m not making as much money as I’d like. When there’s a period of stagnation, I think, “My gosh, I really need to do something else now,” but I can’t sell my soul. I’m the worst jewelry dealer in the world because I actually care about what I sell, and I cannot diversify too much into other areas because I don’t stand behind it. I’m shooting myself in the foot, but I think if you stick to it long enough, maybe something good will happen.
Sharon: I’m sure that’s why people are attracted to what you have. If I wanted a pansy brooch, there must be a dozen places you can get one. If I saw one in your case, I would say, “What are you carrying that for?”
Kristen: Exactly. There was one interesting question you had, which was whether the purchases made through my business were impulse purchases. My reply to that is yes. There always are impulse purchases because we fall in love. However, I think an impulse purchase can be something you love, but it can also be bought out of a panic because you need something to sell.
Over the years, I’ve learned very much to slow down and take a breath and look at it again a bit better, maybe from below or beside. There are one or two dealers, who are much better dealers than I am, who come into my head. I can hear their voices saying, “Have you thought of this? Have you thought of that?” I think that only comes with the experience of spending your own money and sometimes not spending it very wisely. That can’t be taught. You need to make a mistake, maybe even several, and you need to be happy with those mistakes.
I have been on the verge of throwing jewelry away because I think I have made such a big mistake, but of course you can’t because it’s metal or gold, and it would be atrocious to throw a pair of earrings away just because you made a mistake. There will be someone for that pair of earrings. Just remember the mistake you’ve made. So, your question about impulse buying was an interesting one, especially if you’re a dealer like me who likes to keep a tight style.
Sharon: That’s very interesting. That’s a lot to think about. I was talking to a good friend of mine, a jewelry buddy, about impulse purchasing. Not to resell, but in terms of buying. I probably don’t analyze things as much as somebody else might because I like it. Don’t tell me; I don’t want to hear it. Kirsten, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s great to have you.
Kristen: It was a great pleasure.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kirsten Everts
Kirsten Everts is a jewelry dealer and the founder of FRAM, a jewelry business specializing in buying, selling, and valuing 20th century jewels. Kirsten founded FRAM in early 2018 after completing the Graduate Gemology course at GIA and a further 20 years acquiring experience in fields varying from auction (Christie’s, London and Bonhams, Paris) to retail (de GRISOGONO, Geneva) and art advisory (Gurr Johns, London). Kirsten holds a permanent stand on Portobello Road in London, and she participates annually at international jewelry trade fairs in Miami and Las Vegas.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
It’s not easy to get a stand on London’s Portobello Road, but with tenacity and some luck with timing, jewelry dealer Kirsten Everts scored a permanent spot to sell her unusual 20th century jewels. Since then, Kirsten has found a group of loyal clients who love “weird” jewelry as much as she does. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why Portobello Road is changing; her strategies for choosing the best vintage jewelry; and why she will never sell another style of jewelry, even if it means making less money. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Kirsten Everts. Kirsten is a jewelry dealer in West London on Portobello Road. If you’ve been to Portobello Road, you know it’s where you can find probably more antiques and vintage finds than anywhere on the planet. Kirsten is originally from Sweden and has lived in several places around the world. We’ll hear all about Portobello Road and her jewelry journey that brought her there today. Kirsten, welcome to the program.
Kirsten: Thank you. I’m very pleased to be here.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey.
Kirsten: It started quite late in life, probably around when I was 13 or 14 years old, when I started accompanying my parents to viewings at Christie’s and Sotheby’s. I was maybe aping their style a bit. They were more interested in Russian silver and Fabergé and gold boxes. That was the way it was then, but it did pique my interest for small, historical, beautiful objects. Of course, it didn’t hurt that they shone brightly, as they were adorned by gems and diamonds.
At the time, I was young and easily enamored by things that shone, and there was these big estimates and results attached to them. I think at the time, the girls my age who were my friends were receiving fairly important gifts in the form of a Cartier love bangle or maybe a Chopin ring. It may have bothered other people to not get them, but it certainly never bothered me because I started to develop a fairly individual and non-branded taste at the time, even though this was a bit later.
Because, as you mentioned, I’ve grown up in all these countries, some of which are not possible to visit safely today, I saw a lot of ethnic jewelry. It would be brass or copper and silver and feathers and wood. My mother never really wore important jewelry, but she looked absolutely tremendous in this ethnic jewelry. That marked me because not only was she beautiful wearing it, but I understood that these pieces meant a lot more to the tribes they were coming from than a love bangle that has been produced over and over.
So, that’s a little bit about how it started. It evolved later with studies in art history and applied arts. I was studying in Holland, and the applied arts and jewelry were being taught in certain modules. That really piqued my interest because post-war Dutch jewelry history has a lot to do with industrial forms and shapes and materials, and they were so out there. I realized I was actually very attracted to big, whacky and unique one-off pieces. So, it grew from there.
Sharon: This sounds like Swedish. You were born in Sweden—
Kirsten: Actually—I’m sorry to interrupt you—I was born in Holland. My mother’s Norwegian, so that’s a common mistake. Because they were diplomats, we traveled to these countries. I was happier looking at semiprecious stones, agates and wooden, beautifully handmade silver torques than more traditional jewelry, I suppose.
Sharon: You were close to ethnic jewelry. Were you in Iran?
Kirsten: Yes. I was between all sorts of countries, but when I was 13, 14, we were living in Pakistan and India. There were trips to Afghanistan, but there was a lot of discovery of the country itself. My parents made sure we didn’t escape at Christmas to the Maldives. We were there to understand the country, so our trips were very much in the country. As a result, we came across some wonderful things that are now no longer there, sadly. But it was always a lovely thing to come across these tribes and maybe buy a silver torque or a big pair of earrings that they wear so well. Of course, now in hindsight, with a little bit of knowledge, I can only imagine that Alexander Calder would have been influenced by the shapes and forms I saw then. It’s just beautiful, big, bold things that really meant something to them.
Sharon: You say you came to it late, but it’s something that started early for you in terms of—
Kirsten: Maybe I shouldn’t consider it late. I think early teens is quite late. Some people say they were inspired by their mother’s jewelry collection when they were five. I had none of that. It came and grew slowly and much more in my 20s, when it was presented by a professor and there was an actual module concentrating on these things. I didn’t ever study the history of jewelry. That comes in free time when I feel like reading about something. Possibly like most of us, I’m quite self-taught when it comes to proper history. But yeah, maybe you’re right; maybe it wasn’t that late.
Sharon: Yes, people do start with it sometimes with their mother’s jewelry box. My mom didn’t have a jewelry box. Did you go into art history because it was the closest thing to jewelry or just because you love art history?
Kirsten: It’s more embarrassing than that, really. I went into art history because at the time, it was an easy thing to study. I didn’t know what I wanted to study, and it was an easy choice. My parents are artistic. We traveled a lot. There was a lot of culture growing up. It seemed to make sense to put these paintings and sculptures into a historical context. It was a wonderful study to do. If I look back now, I should have done it now rather than then, because it’s such a wonderful thing to study at a later age when we have more maturity. So, it was more a default because I wasn’t going to be a doctor or an engineer, and this seemed to be wonderful. It piqued a great interest in all sorts of things. Being able to put a painting or a bronze into a certain time lapse is quite a nice thing.
Sharon: As part of this, did you ever make jewelry? Were you a bench jeweler or a maker?
Kirsten: No. I did a course a couple of years ago in London because I found it important to understand how difficult it was. I thought that might let me understand the value of the piece or the workmanship behind it. I was thinking you need to get your hands dirty to understand it more. I did this ring course. It was a one-day thing. I’m so happy I did it, but it takes so much patience and a certain amount of creativity and ability to actually work certain metals. That was enough for me. I was never going to be a bench worker, but I’m really glad I tried. It took a day to make a ring, and I appreciate handmade jewelry a lot more because of it, because I had to spend this day at the bench.
Sharon: It does take a lot of patience, yes. I’m impressed you made the ring in just one day, because a lot of times it can take three days. The name of your jewelry company is FRAM. What does that stand for?
Kirsten: FRAM means forward or go forth in Norwegian. I thought that was appropriate for a young business that I was starting on my own. It felt like a positive note to it, but the true origin came from the fact that I have a passion for sailing. There’s a ship called the Fram, which is in Norway in the Fram Museum. It’s a ship that went to the Arctic and the Antarctic in the late 19th century and came back successfully, which can’t be said for all expeditions at the time. I thought, “I love boats, especially wooden boats, but I can’t put a boat on my business card; no one will understand why I’m doing jewelry. But I can call the business FRAM.” It’s easily remembered; it’s easily spelled. Actually, as a result, I get called Fram a lot because people don’t know my first name. I’m actually quite thrilled by that. It has nothing to do with jewelry; it’s just a word that sounds nice.
Sharon: It’s memorable. It’s easy to remember, but it is like, “Why?” or “What’s the connection here?”
Kirsten: Exactly. Well, there’s none.
Sharon: Tell us about your business. You’re a dealer.
Kirsten: Yes.
Sharon: Tell us about your business, who buys it, how you sell and that sort of thing.
Kirsten: Yes, with pleasure. The business is a small business; it’s just me. I started it from scratch after I decided that the company I used to work for and I had nothing left in common. I felt a bit restricted there, and I needed to get this creativity out. It was a little bit haphazard that I left. It was a bit quick. It was a little bit unplanned. I’m very happy being a small business. I would love some feedback from friends, from a colleague at some point, but we’re small. Our clients have grown slowly throughout the two years of the pandemic, of course, but we’ve grown steadily. It’s very organic.
They have turned out to be mostly women. I would like to put an age bracket on it, but I can’t because it varies from 30 to about mid-70s. They’re all very strong, independent women, and they have their own taste. They know exactly what they like, what they can and cannot wear. Some are able to spend more than others. That makes absolutely no difference to me. I like the relationship. I’ve noticed that the customers I’ve developed have become friends, almost. We talk about other things. We go to the opera together. We’re invited over for dinner. They share stories about their lives. For me, it’s a whole package deal. I’m so happy when they have a great piece of jewelry that I believe in, but I also really want to understand them. I don’t know if that’s possible with all jewelry. Maybe other people have that as well, but I have a feeling I have that quite strongly. Maybe that’s because I’m not too expensive, or maybe that’s because I meet a lot of them at Portobello with a very friendly dialogue. I don’t know, but it seems to be that.
Sharon: Do you have people who buy from you and come back to you?
Kirsten: Yes, I have a lot of return clients who, when they can, will say, “I’d like to buy something unique. Have you got anything at the moment?” I will be very honest with them if I haven’t. I can say, “No, but maybe I can find something for you.” That doesn’t seem to bother them. If I have a little search in the market, if I can find something unique, that doesn’t put anyone off. They are absolutely repeat clients. They don’t have to come back every month, but I have noticed that some of them were there in the beginning and are coming back now, and it’s four or five years later. They remember you, and I think it’s because we have this wonderful, honest and open relationship. I am exactly who I am, and I will not pretend to be anything else. I think that might come across. I’m not pushy or menacing, so they come back.
Sharon: You were in a different business, in the corporate world. Had you been thinking about starting a jewelry dealership or whatever you want to call it?
Kirsten: No. I’ve always been interested in jewelry. I started in 1998 at Christie’s in the jewelry department, and it developed from one jewelry world to the next. It went from valuing pieces as a junior employee at Christie’s. Then I moved to Switzerland and I became the stone buyer for a company that did all this black diamond jewelry before black diamonds became what they are now. I bought their stones, so there was a wholesale aspect to that. Afterwards I went back to auction houses and ended up in a company in England doing valuation. It’s always been jewelry-based, but I think what happened is in 2018, I thought I had done everything from wholesale to auction to retail. I thought the only thing I could do where I could be free—which is very important to me, to have that freedom—is to start a business, but it had never crossed my mind because it’s a scary thing.
Sharon: It’s interesting that you did have such a foundation. It is a very scary thing to go out on your own. Was there a catalyst? Was it just like, “It’s time”?
Kirsten: I think it was time. I could feel that the company I was with was concentrating much more on paintings and sculptures. I was promised jewelry. It wasn’t quite working, and I thought, “I can’t go on like this. I’m going to waste my life away.” I was probably in my mid-40s, and I thought it was time to grab life and to do something for myself and to take that responsibility. I thought, “I’ve had so much experience”—about 20 years up until then—”I’m sure I can make this work. If I don’t make it work, then we’ll see, but I think it’s now the time to go.”
I have to add that when these crossroads or these junctions happen in your life, and it’s a big step to take into a deep void—I had very little money in the bank, and I certainly had no clients that were going to come with me. Situations like that sometimes show you that there are one or two people who show up in your life who believe in you or have been in the same position earlier and want to help you. Of course, by helping me, they help themselves, so it’s very equal. I think, as it turned out, one client did say, “I’ve got this jewelry. Can you help me?” And a dealer friend of mine was very kind to help me with Portobello. That was what allowed me to gain some confidence and finances to slowly, slowly make my own way, so to speak, without too much financial damage.
Sharon: Did you target Portobello? Did you say, “That’s where I want to be”? Did you sell elsewhere?
Kirsten: No. I didn’t know about Portobello because my education in jewelry was more or less abroad. I knew of it. I hadn’t ever made the effort to go down there, but I was advised to do it. At the time, Portobello was a lot busier than it is now, especially since Covid. You might remember it much busier. I think I had to go every week for about year to say, “Can I have a stand?” In the end, I got one at the back of the gallery. I think as a newcomer, you’re almost seen as fresh meat. I think they didn’t really know what I was doing. It was a fairly nerve-wracking experience, especially at 5:30 in the morning, but it turned out well.
It was only recently that I’ve understood the importance of Portobello. My career was a little bit backwards. I started at a wonderful auction house at Christie’s, very protected, and slid down this pole and ended up doing Portobello, which is essentially an antique street market. Of course, I should have done it the other way around, but it so happened this is now, and I enjoy it very much. It’s a very steep learning curve to see a piece of jewelry that you have to make an instant decision on because somebody else might buy it if you turn your back. I think there’s a great education in—I don’t want to say judging—I can’t remember the word now, but seeing a person and understanding, “Are they a safe person to deal with? Are they here to steal something? Are they going to actually take this seriously? Where are they from?” I think people knowledge is very important.
What’s been wonderful with Portobello is the camaraderie with the other dealers. Something that doesn’t make sense in someone else’s showcase makes enormous sense in mine, and I understood that you don’t always need to buy something. They’re happy to lend it to you. It’s a very friendly, I’ll-scratch-your-back-and-you-scratch-mine situation. Everyone wants to make money at the end, and you do end up working fairly quickly with the people you have a connection with. It’s extraordinary. I advise anyone starting or even not starting to do it occasionally. It’s just once a month, and I think it keeps it real.
Sharon: That’s a good way to say it. It’s very hands-on. These are the people buying and selling, whether it’s a Christie’s or a Portobello.
Kirsten: Yes.
Sharon: Right now you’re toward the front of the gallery.
Kirsten: I think I got lucky because during Covid we lost—not literally, but a lot of elderly dealers decided to pack up the business at that moment, especially once it was going on for so long. They chose to go stay in the countryside and open a little shop there or trade from home through e-commerce. Portobello emptied out quite quickly as a result of that, but when we were able to start trading again after four months of severe lockdown, there was a certain amount of us that stayed loyal to Portobello. One, because we had to work, two, because we wanted to, but we were there when we were out of lockdown. It was still very much a scare. As a result of that, I got a very nice stand, I like to think. I don’t know why I’m towards the entrance. It’s a great location. I think people moved around. There may have been issues with some people getting government funding, others not. I don’t know. Maybe different people have different deals with the people who run Portobello, but either way, I ended up in a very nice spot. It’s very cold in the winter, but it’s lovely in the summer.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Erik Yang
Erik Yang is the founder of The Lush Life Antiques, which offers a selection of vintage designer jewelry, both signed and unsigned. His primary focus is on American and European costumes, Mexican silver, Native American Indian, Bakelite, modernist and contemporary designer jewelry. Each piece is carefully hand-selected for its design, quality, and construction. In his 25 years as a jewelry dealer, Erik has segued from exhibiting at shows to selling exclusively online.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
The most valuable thing Erik Yang has isn’t his collection of vintage jewelry and antiques—it’s his expertise. As founder of The Lush Life Antiques, Erik has built a reputation as a trusted dealer for his integrity and in-depth knowledge of jewelry and antiques across several periods. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how to find trustworthy vintage stores and dealers; how the internet has shaped antique pricing expectations; and why you should always get a receipt. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today my guest is Erik Yang, founder and owner of The Lush Life Antiques. Welcome back.
We talked a little bit about the importance of a dealer’s reputation. What makes one dealer more trustworthy over another? I would rather have somebody say, “I don’t know,” if I ask them, “What is this from? or “What is this made of?” as opposed to giving me some story.
Erik: Right. There are a lot of people that don’t know, and there are a lot of people that use that as a disclosure: “use your opinion, “buyer beware,” but they know. A lot of people pass off their mistakes to other people that are unsuspecting. A lot of collectors give their mistakes to dealers who don’t really know and say, “Here, I’m divesting. Please sell this for me at the market. I don’t need this. You keep the difference.” That happens all the time. They tend to use people that don’t have the knowledge base, but the collector has the knowledge base. Maybe this is getting into a little more complicated discussion, but dealing with a reputable dealer is difficult.
We had this discussion when you were here for that exhibit. I think when you’re dealing with somebody who has been in business for quite a long time, is very known in the industry, is a published author, someone you can Google and they’ll have multiple hits for interviews or articles or this or that, someone who is respected, I think those are the type of people you can deal with safely. I always joke that I’ll buy something from somebody I know very well, when they’ve been in business for 30-something years, and I’ll ask them, “Can I have a receipt?” There are people that do the market every month, and they don’t know how to write a receipt, let alone have a receipt book with their business name and their contact information on it.
When I receive a receipt and it just says, “Necklace, $30,” with nothing on it, I can make that myself. Someone like that, who is that casual about their business, if you have an issue with something, if you buy something from them, you have no recourse aside from going up to them and saying, “I bought this necklace from you for $100 and it turns out it’s not gold. I would like my money back.” Well, you don’t have a proper receipt, and they’re probably going to say, “I don’t know. It’s been too long. I can’t do anything.” That’s quite common. If someone has their letterhead on it, their business name, their contact information with the information of the item, they will stand by that product because not only is there a liability with it, but they tend to be a lot more established and reputable in their business. At least that’s my opinion.
I’m helping with an estate right now, and they’re donating some of the pieces to the local museum. I didn’t know when I first looked at one of the items that it actually had the receipt of purchase. The curator asked me for assistance with this piece. I looked at the letterhead and I knew the store; I knew the owner of the store. It had a very detailed description of the item and the price that was paid. I said, “Let me contact this person and get some information for you.” I did, and they said, “We definitely sold this item, but it was sold so long ago—it’s been almost 10 years—that we don’t have the paperwork on it. We don’t recall X, Y, Z about the piece, but we are happy for you to send it to us at our expense. We will review it. We will give you a revised receipt of information for whatever purposes you need, and we’ll send it back to you.” That’s reputable, and that’s why that person has a very established business. It’s all about reputation. I was quite impressed with how they handled that. It was much more than I thought they would do. They went out of their way more than they had to. But if somebody doesn’t have any kind of brick and mortar, and they just show up at a flea market one weekend, you’d better be careful with what you’re buying.
Sharon: It’s interesting you say that about the receipt. I hadn’t thought about the information on the receipt and the letterhead. It’s not that difficult to make something like that, but most people don’t go into a lot of detail it seems.
Erik: No. I have my receipt book with my business name on it, and I try to give as much information. I ask them what they want, usually; “What do you need on the receipt?” because some people do buy things for investment, but most of my clients are buying some earrings to wear for an event and they could care less who made it. That’s just how it is. There are different levels of collectors. Now, if it’s something like a Van Cleef & Arpels diamond bracelet, they want something a little more specific, especially if it’s expensive.
By doing that, by putting that down next to your name, you have a liability. They can come back to you and say, “You sold this to me as this and it’s not.” I had this recently, and I’m glad I got it on paper. I bought a brooch that they sold to me as 14-karat gold with sapphires. It looked 100% correct and it tested for 14-karat, but it wasn’t 14-karat; it was just extremely heavily plated. You had to file into it a little bit to get to the core metal, but it was brass, basically, with a very heavy gold plating. They did not want to stand by their product, and it’s a very well-known store locally. I said, “I have your receipt saying this,” and they said, “Well, we’ll give you store credit.” I said, “Well, I bought it yesterday. The credit hasn’t even gone through,” and I basically forced them to give me the money back. I wasn’t happy with that, and I haven’t gone back. That’s a good example of someone who has a very established business that’s been around for over 30 years locally that didn’t stand by their product. I didn’t pursue it. I could have, but I’m not the type of person to leave bad Yelp reviews. It was just an unpleasant experience. When people have asked me about that particular store, I’ve told them, “You better be careful.” I didn’t mention specifically what the scenario was. I said, “Just be careful with them. I know you shop there. Be very careful with your purchases.” That’s all you can say.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’ll have to think more about it and be more aware. I do tend to buy things a little quickly without looking at all the detail.
What did you do during Covid? You operate online. You don’t go to shows. How do you sell?
Erik: People ask me that all the time, and I say I sell wherever I can. I’m in transition right now for a number of reasons, but at the time Covid was happening, I think I was in three stores. I’m down to two now. I originally had five locations in Dallas. Slowly the stores have closed or I pulled out for various reasons, bad management of the stores. I never had my own brick and mortar. I always sublease spaces. During Covid, though, a lot of stores here closed completely. We also had some issues with rioting here. I won’t get into politics or current events, but there was rioting happening in New York and Beverly Hills, and that’s when Bergdorf Goodman and all of Rodeo Drive was covered up. They just boarded up everything. Two of my stores were in prime areas that were targets for that, so at that time, I pulled all of my merchandise. That was during Covid. I pulled all of my merchandise out of the stores by request of the store owners because they were scared for their own items; they didn’t want to be worrying over possible theft of my things as well. I left costume or things that don’t have an intrinsic value, but anything that was silver or anything that was meltable that could be pawned, I did take out. All of my Native American pieces ended up getting boxed up and taken out during Covid.
Still, our stores were managing on Instagram and Facebook posts. We did curbside pick-up just like the grocery stores do, but these were big stores, and they’re trying to sell for everybody in the store. I’m just one vendor. So, I took everything more online, and that’s where I’ve been stuck for the last couple of years, which is fine. I’m back in the stores. We’re fine now, but Covid was very brutal for a lot of people. A lot of local stores, especially the antique stores and the vintage stores, just didn’t survive for obvious reasons. It’s hard to experience a lot of things. You have to try things on, and it’s a little difficult to do everything online.
Sharon: Are you focusing more online? Now you have several outlets online, it seems.
Erik: I am doing online. I’m trying to be more active with Instagram. They’re dragging me into the 21st century. I’ve always used social media for different things, but not necessarily for selling. I have pretty big displays in both of my local shops, and I’m continuing online. I’m primarily selling on eBay at the moment. I am rebuilding a website which I had before. I let it go by the wayside. I’m trying to remarket it a bit for many reasons, but primarily I have some significant collections in right now that I’ve been hired to liquidate, and they’re almost too good to go. I hate to say it, but they’re too good for eBay. They need to go on a higher venue. I’ll get to it. I’m still processing all the low-end pieces from these two collections right now. So, it’s going to be a while. It takes time.
Sharon: Wow! We’ll keep our eyes on everything because it’s hard to find you.
Erik: I know. I’ve joked that if I ever had a brick-and-mortar store, all the Yelp reviews would say, “Wow, he’s got great stuff, but he’s never open.”
Sharon: You’re on eBay under what name, The Lush Life?
Erik: The Lush Life on eBay. I’ve been on eBay since 1999. I took a huge hiatus for a long time. I had problems with eBay very early on, and I had a temper tantrum and said, “Enough with them. I’m going to go and open my own website.” I did, and I exclusively did that for at least 10, 12 years. Then I started doing shows, and then shows died. Then I started doing shows again, and then I’m back on eBay. So, it seems like I’ve come full circle. Nothing’s really changed. You have to change with the times. There are other options. I’ve looked at doing Ruby Lane and other things, but I’ll figure it out.
Sharon: But you are on Instagram as @arkieboy33.
Erik: Yes.
Sharon: Do you find that you sell through Instagram? Do people call you?
Erik: I have a little bit, not much because I wasn’t active with it. I know there are a lot of people doing a lot of business, and there are a lot of people that are exclusively selling on Instagram. For now, it is a valid forum, but what’s next? If you think about it, Myspace wasn’t that long ago. What is that? There are a lot of different venues I hear about, and I don’t know what they are. I’m familiar with TikTok and all of those, but there are a lot of other things. There are all kinds of apps now as well. I know I would not mesh well with something like Poshmark or Mercari or any of those, so I’ll just stick with eBay; it’s been around a long time.
Sharon: It sounds like you have it mastered. You’ve figured it out, at least.
Erik: The thing with eBay or that particular selling forum, as well as Ruby Lane and the more established platforms, is that the market for specific things right now is in Asia, and they are able to buy through those forums. It’s a little sketchy when you start having international sales and you assume the responsibility. On eBay, you can use their shipping program, so it costs more for them as the buyer, but there’s less responsibility as a seller. When I’ve had things go missing it’s been because of eBay, and I’ve been taken care of on my end, as has the buyer. There is a level of safety or security that I like. There’s something very stressful about sending very expensive items to someone you’ve never met, have never spoken to on the phone. Even though you have a credit card authorization, or you’ve run a credit card and you’ve captured the funds, it can be reversed. That’s a scary thing.
Sharon: Yeah, that’s interesting. Erick, you’ve covered a lot of territory. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.
Erik: Thank you for having me again.
Sharon: It’s been great.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Erik Yang
Erik Yang is the founder of The Lush Life Antiques, which offers a selection of vintage designer jewelry, both signed and unsigned. His primary focus is on American and European costumes, Mexican silver, Native American Indian, Bakelite, modernist and contemporary designer jewelry. Each piece is carefully hand-selected for its design, quality, and construction. In his 25 years as a jewelry dealer, Erik has segued from exhibiting at shows to selling exclusively online.
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
The most valuable thing Erik Yang has isn’t his collection of vintage jewelry and antiques—it’s his expertise. As founder of The Lush Life Antiques, Erik has built a reputation as a trusted dealer for his integrity and in-depth knowledge of jewelry and antiques across several periods. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how to find trustworthy vintage stores and dealers; how the internet has shaped antique pricing expectations; and why you should always get a receipt. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Erik Yang, founder and owner of The Lush Life Antiques. Erik has spent the last few decades buying and selling a range of jewelry and antiques, from antique items to modern items, some of which he has designed and commissioned himself. Over the years, he’s become extremely knowledgeable and well-versed in jewelry and jewelry history.
I’m going to give you one perfect example. I recently met with Erik at the Cartier exhibit at the Dallas Museum of Art. Although the exhibit had opened just a couple of weeks before we were at the exhibit, it was the third time he had already been attending it. As he and I toured through the exhibit, Erik would explain how many of the Cartier items were used by women in the 20s or 30s. You know the items that you look at and go, “Who used that, and where did that fit?” or “How did that hold the cigarette or lipsticks, or what was that used for?” Erik would explain to me how they were used. I started to feel like I was with the Pied Piper, because people would gather around him to listen to his explanations and ask if they could follow him around to hear what he had to say. He definitely made many of the items come alive. Today we’ll hear about his own jewelry journey. Erik, welcome to the program.
Erik: Hi, Sharon. Thanks for having me here. It’s nice to be back.
Sharon: Yes, pre-Covid, a different world. Tell us about your jewelry. I know you didn’t start out in jewelry. What was your original career, and how did you get into jewelry?
Erik: I minored in art history in college, but my degree was actually in zoology/biology. I worked in a laboratory for a couple of years, specifically in the biochemistry/molecular biology department at the University of Arkansas for medical sciences. At that point, I was on a pre-med route. I opted to go into the Ph.D. program where I was already working in the labs. I oversaw the labs. I did the ordering. I did a lot of the behind-the-scenes aspect, but I also had my own experiments which were involving cholesterol metabolism. I decided it was a natural progression to get my Ph.D. in that field, but the more I got into it, the more unhappy I became. I was a square peg in a round hole, basically, and I ended up quitting, much to the dismay of the dean of my department.
I had done a local flea market. I already, at the time, had a little booth where I sold some random things. I did a local flea market, and I did quite well over the weekend. I decided, “I’m going to leave this program.” My dean asked me, “What are you going to do now?” and I said, “Well, I’m going to start by selling off some excess things in the house,” and I have been doing that for 30 years now. I don’t think I’ve made a dent, but that’s how I started in the antiques business, and it was a much better fit. It was a hard fit, but like anything, if you want to be successful, it’s not easy; it’s a lot of work.
Sharon: It was a hard fit because all beginnings are hard.
Erik: Yes. This was a long time ago. This is about 30 years ago. Technology was different. I didn’t have a computer. Nobody had smart phones at all. Researching where to go, how to know what markets to go to, where to go set up, where to sell your wares, was a hidden art. There were some older dealers that were definitely interested in younger dealers coming into the scene that thought, “Let’s help him out.” At the time, I had people inviting me to stay with them in New York. They said, “Come here. You can stay with us,” because they saw somebody they saw potential in, I guess. But that was a totally different time period. Now, if you want to know what to do, you can just Google it and find things out that way. But back then, it was making phone calls in a phone booth in the middle of nowhere and trying to get ahold of a customer, describing things over the phone and hoping they trusted your knowledge or your opinion about an item you saw.
Sharon: Wow! That would be a challenge. You’re knowledgeable about jewelry and antiques across many periods. What is it that interests you about jewelry in particular? What attracts your attention to different eras?
Erik: I’ve always had a fascination with jewelry since I was a small child. My mother had a lot of jewelry, nothing incredibly important. My mother is from Guadalajara, Mexico, and my father was from Taiwan. There was nothing significant, but there was a lot of small pieces of family jewelry. There was the jade and the Chinese pieces from one side, and my mother had a lot of Mexican silver. My great grandfather actually had a silver mine in Mexico, and there were some pieces from the family that she had which I actually still have. It was always fascinating to see those. When she would pull them out and show them to me, I knew nothing about them at the time. I do now.
One of my hobbies very early on—I did this throughout high school, and a lot of people don’t know this. I used to make doll houses on special commission. I made several, and I made quite a lot of money doing it very early. It is a very expensive hobby. Building a small house is the same cost as building a real house. One of the first pieces I made I sold to the president of the National Doll Association. Keep in mind, I have no interest whatsoever in dolls. I was very interested in miniatures, things that were small. I still am. I love small things. So, it easily translated into jewelry because with jewelry, each item is a small sculpture of some sort, whatever it is. There’s a lot of artistry. It’s done on a microscale like the miniatures I was working in.
I’ve made a lot of things. I’m not a bench jeweler. I have made some things here and there, and I do understand the complexity of manufacturing and creating, but that all relates to me making a little bitty chair using human-size, giant power tools to make and cut things and work at a bench doing that. It translated into jewelry quite easily. I’ve toggled back and forth between the two hobbies here and there, not that the jewelry part is a hobby anymore. That was my easy understanding of the jewelry business.
Making the miniatures involved different time periods. One of the more popular styles in making houses was the Victorian style because there was a lot of gingerbread trim and all kinds of ornate things that were done to these houses. So, I was researching a lot about architecture and styles and designs of that period into the 20s. I had that knowledge base of design early on, and we’re talking very early on, like 10, 11, 12. I think my first commission I did for a house was when I was 12. So, I’ve been doing this a long time. I didn’t even have a driver’s license. The ladies that I made things for used to come and pick me up and we would go pick out chandeliers. Anyway, enough of that, but that’s the history of how I got involved and why. There was this early, core knowledge that I had of different styles and craftsmanship because of that small scale. Like I said, it translated very easily into jewelry and still does.
Sharon: As an aside, why is making a miniature doll house so expensive?
Erik: It’s a lot of work. It takes just as much time to make something on a big scale as it does on a small scale. I just went to a miniature show, and a little miniature sterling silver tea set that was done by a silversmith was about the same price as a real one. If you were to melt it, the silver value is probably $10, but it was $2,000 for the tea set. You don’t think about that, but it’s a very expensive hobby.
Sharon: It seems very difficult and intricate. Yeah, how do you use the human-size tools on something so tiny?
Erik: Right.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear you say that you have this foundation in Victorian because you don’t have a lot of Victorian stuff.
Erik: Right, probably not. A few little objects here and there. I’m actually very eclectic, because I do appreciate different styles of different time periods. I definitely enjoy it. I love going to some of these home tours and seeing what was done. I love Victorian jewelry. Like I said, it was an easy transition. I understand the complexity of it or why it looked this way in jewelry, and when the aesthetic was this way. It’s all very cohesive, definitely.
Sharon: What’s your favorite period, would you say?
Erik: Definitely my favorite period is Art Deco. That’s where I started in the antiques business, in Art Deco objects. I still love deco. I think it’s such a sophisticated look. There’s a clean line about it. A lot of people don’t get it. It did have a big revival in the 70s and a modified version of it in the 80s. There’s American Streamline, which is very sleek. That’s what I like. Then there’s what I call Romantic Deco, which is very flowery, ornate, a little more curves. That’s more French in its aesthetic. I like it, but it’s not exactly my favorite. I like things that are that are that real stark look, which was also very popular in Germany. That’s my favorite style. You don’t see it very much. That style was popular on the West Coast and Hollywood, and New York and Miami and Chicago as well, but not too much throughout the U.S. Every city’s going to have examples of that, but that’s what I like. That’s my favorite.
Sharon: Do you find pieces that reflect that?
Erik: Yeah, when I started in the antiques business, the one thing I specialized in—which was sort of where my business name came from. My business name has a double entendre, because I started with barware, and all of the handles and a lot of the utilitarian objects had real colorful Bakelite as the components of it. So, I always had Bakelite jewelry within my vignettes of what I was selling. At that time, I had one little case of jewelry; that was it. Now, I could stock a store, basically.
So, I started with the Bakelite, which is definitely a very 30s, Art Deco era. There’s a lot of geometric stuff that was done at the time. It was a new material, and they used it in a new fashion. There was a lot of whimsy in Bakelite as well. It was something you would see on screen. It was very popular. As you mentioned, in the Cartier exhibit, a lot of the pieces were Art Deco in their design. It’s one of my favorites. I do see it, but it’s not real common in my area. Really good examples of Deco jewelry tend to be in larger cities. That’s where it’s a little more popular because it is a very sophisticated look. I think you have to be very urban.
Sharon: And you also have to have money because the price of it keeps going up.
Erik: Right, exactly.
Sharon: So, your name, The Lush Life, is a double entendre because you started selling barware.
Erik: Yeah. A lot of people don’t know that. I just kept it even though I stopped selling barware. I kept it because it alludes to luxury as well. Anyway, that’s where that came from.
Sharon: I happened to go into store in New Orleans about five or six years ago, and they had a lot of vintage barware. They explained to me that it’s a real collector’s thing, which I didn’t know at the time.
Erik: Because of prohibition in the United States, most households, if they had a cocktail shaker, it was very simple, usually something sterling silver. Liquor wasn’t available. But when prohibition ended, that’s when the heyday of American barware went nuts. Really inventive styles were coming out. You would see things, roosters and penguins, all kinds of animals and all kinds of interesting forms and shapes on bar accessories. Not all of them, but a lot of them had Bakelite as the components, like the swizzle sticks or the handles or the finials. It was quite common, actually.
Sharon: I didn’t know that until a while back. It sounds like it would be an interesting thing to collect.
I know you do a lot of digging. You go to flea markets; you keep your eyes on garage sales, on auctions and things like that. Do you think that because of things like Antiques Roadshow, people know the value of what they have? Has it gotten harder to find the jewelry you’re looking for? Do people know it?
Erik: Yes, it’s definitely harder to find. I think with the smartphone technology, I see it all the time. I used to not really go to estate sales, but lately I have been, and everybody’s looking up everything on their phone before they’re buying it. I’ve never really bought that way. I’m aware of market prices. One in a while I may not know a particular maker. It’s very uncommon for me to be at an estate sale looking up something. I go by a look. If I like it, if I think somebody might like it and there’s room for a modest markup, I’ll buy it. I don’t care what it sold for on eBay, and I don’t care what it sells for on any other platform. I just know what I think I can get for it.
So yes, it is harder because there is a lot more competition out there, and it’s easier to find out what things are. It’s at your fingertips now. I guess phones started blowing up about 15 years ago. I don’t remember when the iPhone came out or when smartphones became real popular, but everybody is using that. You can look up an item online and see the same item at 20 different prices, whether it’s $10 or someone has it for $650. Realistically, if you want to see what the market bears, if you have an account, you can go on WorthPoint and see what it sold for in different years on eBay. eBay does give you a good idea of where trends are. Over the years, certain things go high; certain things plummet, but it does give you a relative value. So, when someone’s asking $650 for something and there’s no recorded price of that ever selling, they’re not going to sell it for $650. A lot of times people will offer me something and say, “Well, this person has it online for $650,” and I say, “But it’s still there. It’s been there for five years at that price and it’s not going to sell. One just sold on eBay for $39.95.” It’s become difficult because people think their things are very precious when they’re actually very mundane or very common. Then people have items they think are mundane, then they look into it and find out it’s extremely expensive. There’s that contrast. It’s either or, so it’s become difficult.
A great example: I was at a store one time, and a gentleman brought in a little sterling silver baby cup. He said, “I saw this on the Roadshow, and it’s worth a lot of money.” Now, this was a baby cup that was made by a company like Reed and Barton, something like that. It was sterling silver. Granted, it had some silver value, but it is a dime a dozen. Yes, they’re kind of hard to find without a dent in them or engraved, but on a good day, $100. I know this for a fact because I always buy them as gifts for my friends that have children, and they don’t sell for very much.
But the fact that he saw it on the Antiques Roadshow, he thought his was worth about $25,000, something like that. I said, “Are you referring to the tankard that was brought in the other day on the Roadshow?” The one that was on the Roadshow was Paul Revere. It was a tankard made by Paul Revere. I said, “They’re not the same,” but he insisted they were the same because they looked the same. I said, “Well, they are different sizes, first of all.” But you can’t educate when they don’t want to be educated. You see that in everything. Since I focus on jewelry primarily, I see it all the time. I see variations. That story relates to everything, of every category of jewelry that I see, where they think, “Oh, I have that.” No, you don’t. Yours is a copy of a famous piece, and it’s a poor copy. Just because it looks the same doesn’t mean it is the same.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Annette Dam
Annette Dam is educated from the Oslo National Academy of the Arts in Norway in 1999 and has since worked conceptually and exhibition-oriented. Annette Dam's works have been exhibited at exhibitions in Denmark as well as internationally. In 2015 she was selected for the World Craft Council's European Prize for Applied Arts in Belgium. Annette Dam received the prestigious Skt. Loye award from the Kjøbenhavns Guldsmedelaug.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
For Danish artist-jeweler Annette Dam, the appeal of art jewelry lies in the challenge of making it. How do you turn an idea or feeling into a wearable piece of art? That’s the question she asks before starting any piece. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her upcoming exhibitions and projects; how people from different cultures approach art jewelry; and why she wants to help the Danish art jewelry scene thrive. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today my guest is artist-jeweler Annette Dam, speaking to us from Denmark. Welcome back.
You used the word concrete, which is exactly the word I used when I was making notes. I thought, “Oh my god, that’s a real challenge.” You say that what you’re doing is a little bit like a riddle. You’re trying to make something concrete that you’re visualizing in your mind, but you want to make it real. That must be very difficult.
Annette: It is sometimes, but for me it’s also where a lot of my drive is. It’s where I get challenged. I get very frustrated and say, “I don’t know. How do I do this?” but that is what I think is exciting. I must like it even though I get so frustrated. I think it’s very hard sometimes.
For instance, I had an exhibition a while ago called “When Complexity Moved In.” It was about getting older. When you get older and more experienced and more knowledgeable, you’re able to see things from many different perspectives. You can see other peoples’ reactions and you can see their points. You may not agree, but you can still see their view, and it’s not black and white anymore. A lot of friends who are the same age as me have the same feeling. Life doesn’t get easier. Even though you may know a lot more, you get more experienced, it seems like it’s getting even more complex. All the grey, all the nuances, you get aware of them. How do I translate that feeling into jewelry? That is a real challenge.
Sharon: Yes, it sounds like it. It sounds like a brain twister.
Annette: Yes, it is, but that’s where a lot of my energy comes from, this riddle that I have to solve to get it into a material. I make jewelry that, at least in my opinion, is somewhat wearable. Some might disagree. So, there’s also a functional side to it, and I want it all to work together. Then you have a lot of ideas, and it’s also about subtracting so it doesn’t get confusing. That’s a lot of elements in that creative process, but that’s the one that drives me.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I could see how you have to streamline things and say, “O.K., I have a lot of ideas, but they can’t all go into this one piece.”
Annette: No.
Sharon: I was intrigued by your—I’m looking for the name of it, the silversmithing program.
Annette: Yeah.
Sharon: Tell us about that.
Annette: I can say that whenever I start a new project, I always want to learn something new, not only in terms of investigating an issue, but also technical skills when I want to investigate a material. I want to challenge myself a little bit in that department as well. There’s always a part of me trying out new thinking, being a beginner at something within the project.
In this case, it has a title called “Trespassing.” It’s about gender. It’s about the balance between femininity and masculinity and power structures and stuff like that. It’s things we talk about these days. It’s also a way for me to educate myself within this area. I have two children, two daughters that are 18 and 20. They live in this, but I have to more actively educate myself in these gender themes. It’s very interesting.
I started out doing these neckpieces that are a balance between a necktie and a traditional pearl necklace. It’s a long process where I also have to deselect something to make it clearer. Where is the balance? How long should the tie be compared to the necklace before it’s a necklace and not a tie? What does it really say? Does it say what I want it to say? That was a small beginning of it, but I had the chance to go to this very experienced, very good silversmith Carsten From Andersen. It was also something I got a grant for through the Danish Arts Foundation. I hadn’t done a lot of silversmithing, and that’s a hard technique. I had a little bit of teaching of it in school in Norway, but it has to be in your body in a way to actually do it. So, he’s teaching me. I’m starting out doing these—are they called puff sleeves? Like the one Sleeping Beauty was wearing. It’s clothes and a shoulder piece.
Sharon: In silver?
Annette: It’s in silver, yeah. I’m a big silver fan. It also has references to and elements of the parade uniforms the military wears. It’s morphing into a different plane with the balance between something innocent and very feminine and something very powerful and demonstrating military power. How can I make an interesting balance between that? I’m also making—what is it called? Like a jock strap.
Sharon: Yeah, a jock strap.
Annette: Combining that with a garter belt. It’s a way for me to explore. So, I’m doing this project and learning this new technique. Part of the project will be shown at a small gallery Portabel, owned by Camilla Luin, in Norway in September. The first step in that project will be shown there and then we’ll see where it goes.
Sharon: How long is this silversmithing program?
Annette: It’s just him and I deciding. When I think I’ve done enough and when I’m finished with what we talked about. We’re still not there, but it’s really interesting.
Sharon: It sounds like it.
Annette: He’s a great guy and he’s so good at it. I’m so impressed.
Sharon: I can give you a lot of credit for wanting to embark on something like that. I like it when people explain things to me, when someone takes me on a tour of an art gallery and I say, “Oh yeah, now I see it, O.K.” I saw your neckpiece with the pearls and the tie. I saw it online, and now that you’ve explained it, I go, “Oh yeah, I get it. That’s really interesting.”
Annette: Yeah, it combined those very traditional, classical, masculine, feminine accessories, and then combining them and seeing how it works out.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. You say you like to exhibit things. Why is that? Why are exhibitions important to you?
Annette: I don’t know. I think the pieces that I do, they relate to a topic, and it feels like I have this conversation doing it. I have conversations with myself, maybe with colleagues, family. But then to see it through someone else’s eyes when the audience comes, those discussions are really valuable to me. I gain a lot from them, so I like to exhibit. I like to make bigger pieces. I know they are not production work, where I will not sell 10 of them, or thousands of them, but I still like to do them. I like to have this conversation between myself and the audience and the gallerist and whoever is there. It’s very giving for me.
Sharon: You mentioned the question marks in people not exactly understanding when you say artist-jeweler. Did they understand it more in Norway or is it just in general?
Annette: A little bit more, actually. Yeah, they do. They have an art tradition. It’s a recent culture for doing craft in general. In my opinion, it’s more valued there. They appreciate it more. It was a good place to study. They didn’t question me as much.
Sharon: They didn’t say, “What are you talking about?”
Annette: I get questioned a lot in Denmark, but not necessarily other places.
Sharon: Interesting.
Annette: Isn’t it?
Sharon: Yes. I know that at one point you lived in the States, in California, I think. Did you do your crafts—
Annette: No, my husband is from California. I have never lived there.
Sharon: O.K. I was wondering if you were doing art jewelry. Have you tried exhibiting here?
Annette: No, I’m represented by Charon Kransen, among others.
Sharon: By whom? Oh, Charon Kransen.
Annette: I’ve been traveling a lot doing exhibitions in the States, but I never worked there or lived there. I find that the American audience, they are braver in a way. They appreciate some of my bigger works that I would never sell in Denmark. As you know, there are a lot of collectors in the U.S. We don’t have collectors in Denmark yet. We’re working on it, but they’re just braver in wearing extravagant jewelry in the US. They don’t mind having those conversations. I think if they wear a big piece that has a lot to say, they know they’re going to be questioned and they will have a conversation. I don’t know if the Danes don’t really want that, but the Americans, they don’t mind it. They like it, right?
Sharon: That’s interesting, because I know the pieces you have online, and from what I’ve seen, I don’t consider your pieces really big. They’re not small, but they’re not huge. It’s not like wearing a pectoral.
Annette: I totally agree. My jewelry is not that out there. They’re not that weird, but that’s a way to come for Danish wares.
Sharon: Do you see the market growing there for art jewelry?
Annette: No.
Sharon: No?
Annette: No, but I see it growing in other places, in other countries.
Sharon: In Scandinavia?
Annette: Throughout the world in general it’s growing. I’m very pleased, but not in Denmark.
Sharon: Interesting. I’m surprised to hear that.
Annette We have a long tradition of making jewelry, so it concerns that we don’t have an education for art jewelery at a higher level anymore. If you want to be educated within art jewelry, you have to go abroad nowadays.
Sharon: What happened to the school?
Annette: It got closed down. They kind of made a school at this art academy, but they exchanged it for accessories, and that’s not art jewelry. They kind of diminished that specific field within the accessory thing.
Sharon: It seems like there’s a market in Canada. You’re working on a project, the Nordic Bridges, in your exhibit in Toronto. Tell us about that.
Annette: Yeah, I was very pleased to get invited to this exhibition called Animal, Vegetable, Mineral. I was invited by Melanie Egan. She’s a curator at the Harbourfront Centre in Toronto. In the year 2022, there’s this project called the Nordic Bridges, which is a collaboration between the Nordic countries and Canada. The Harbourfront Centre is leading this project. There are exhibitions, venues with literature, film, dance, performance, gastronomy as well, all taking place at different places in Canada. It’s a huge project. This is a part of it, this jewelry exhibition where there’s one artist from each of the Nordic countries and I think six from Canada. I like the title.
Sharon: What does it mean?
Annette: It’s a guessing game. I don’t know. Do you have it in the U.S., a guessing game where the first question, at least in Canada, is animal, vegetable or mineral? In Denmark, it would be—how do I translate it? Is it living in the water, on earth or is it flying? You have to guess an animal in Denmark, but in Canada, I guess it’s a little bit different. But this is the game, and that’s the
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Annette Dam
Annette Dam is educated from the Oslo National Academy of the Arts in Norway in 1999 and has since worked conceptually and exhibition-oriented. Annette Dam's works have been exhibited at exhibitions in Denmark as well as internationally. In 2015 she was selected for the World Craft Council's European Prize for Applied Arts in Belgium. Annette Dam received the prestigious Skt. Loye award from the Kjøbenhavns Guldsmedelaug.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
For Danish artist-jeweler Annette Dam, the appeal of art jewelry lies in the challenge of making it. How do you turn an idea or feeling into a wearable piece of art? That’s the question she asks before starting any piece. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her upcoming exhibitions and projects; how people from different cultures approach art jewelry; and why she wants to help the Danish art jewelry scene thrive. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today my guest is artist-jeweler Annette Dam, speaking to us from Denmark. Annette’s work is very intriguing. It’s straightforward, but she also injects humor. When you look at her work, you say, “Oh, my god, it’s so true what she’s saying. It’s so true, but it’s also very funny. Why didn’t I think of that?” Her work has been exhibited in museums and at shows around the world. She always has several projects going at once, which we’ll hear about today. Annette, welcome to the program.
Annette: Thank you, Sharon. It’s nice to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. How is it that you got into art jewelry?
Annette: That was kind of coincidental, actually. I always drew a lot when I was a kid. I always did lots of arts and crafts. I come from a family of do-it-yourself types and creatives, but not in an artistic way. So, I’m used to drawing and stuff. I remember when people asked me, “What do you want to do when you grow up?” I said, “I want to be an architect.” I kind of wanted to be that. There was also, I must admit, something about giving them an answer that they would accept and leave me alone. Then I got into this after gymnasium—
Sharon: High school.
Annette: Yes, high school, but in Denmark, it’s like the last part of your high school and the first of college. Anyway, I came to this school. It was kind of a boarding school. You do it often on your sabbatical, but it’s a very big thing in Denmark to go to these schools. They can be creative. They can be about athletics. They can be about politics. They can be about a lot of things. I went to, of course, an artistic one.
I was dreaming about coming into this class with glass blowers, but it was filled up, so I heard, “Well, maybe you should try jewelry,” and I said, “O.K.” It just opened to me because I had the image of jewelry as being precious materials, nice and fine, wearable, functional. Wedding rings and stuff like that. But that school opened up to me that jewelry could be so much more. This was in Denmark. After that, I wanted to search if there was a way for me to do jewelry. In Denmark, you could do goldsmithing. They had something called the Institute of Precious Metals, but it was an add-on if you were already a goldsmith, which I wasn’t and I didn’t want to become one. In my head, you would spend the first couple of years doing repairs, making coffee, and I wasn’t into that.
I had already been to Norway working at this ski resort. I went back, heard about this school in Norway, and met a girl who had gone there as an architect. She explained it and I said, “This sounds amazing, just what I want,” and she said, “Well, it’s very hard to get in. You’ll probably not make it.” I have a stubborn side to me, so at the moment she said that, I definitely wanted to try. After a long application process, I got in. I had five years at Oslo National Academy of the Arts. It’s a wonderful school. I can highly recommend it today.
I spent five years there exploring materials, concepts. The school is built on letting you a course of a lot of skills, technical stuff of course, but you always have to do something artistic with it. Even though you’re learning a technique, it has to be more than that. I thought that was great, that I could express myself through jewelry, an art form I really enjoyed doing. Altogether, I spent 11 years in Norway. It wasn’t planned, and my mother was saying, “When are you coming home?”
Eventually I had kids and I went back to Denmark. In Denmark, it’s very common to stop at these—what do they call it?—joint workshops, where there are a lot of people sharing not only the space, but also the machines and the tools. As a startup jewelry artist, those machines are very expensive. For me, getting into this joint workshop, where we were 10 people at the time, was really good because I’m not from Copenhagen. I moved back to Copenhagen from Norway. I’m not from there, so I didn’t have a lot of network there, but I got that through this workshop. There were a lot of wonderful people there. I wasn’t limited by not having all the big machines because they were already there. I stayed in that workshop for quite a lot of years. I made a lot of good friends. I stuck to doing exhibition work. I wanted to do bigger projects and exhibition work, and then I would teach on the side, do odd jobs. I was able to do these crazy things that I wanted to do, and that worked out quite fine, I think. I’ve been doing that ever since, actually.
There at one of the workshops I met a now very, very good friend and colleague. We made this project called Art Jewelry Copenhagen. That’s a platform where we make group exhibitions and workshops and seminars. We’ve been traveling a lot under this platform, Art Jewelry Copenhagen. When people asked me at the time, as a young chick, “What do you want to be when you grow up?” and I had answered, “An art jeweler,” I don’t know if I would have gotten off that easily as when I replied, “I want to be an architect.”
Sharon: Art jewelry means so many different things. It’s so hard to define. You’re described as an artist-jeweler. Then there are people who say they’re jewelry artists. How do you define art jewelry?
Annette: To me, art jewelry is a method to reflect current times. It’s a way of having a discussion with myself and then doing these pieces that comment on it, as all contemporary arts comment on the present day. That can be either through form, material, aesthetics, or it could be making a statement or commenting on the political or environmental landscape we have nowadays. For me, it’s this method of digging into things, having this discussion about how to look at it, a way through a process, investigating themes, materials that I didn’t know before, and then putting it on my own body.
Sharon: Art Jewelry Copenhagen, it seems like it’s been very well received. You went to Asia. You’ve been all over the world.
Annette: Yeah, the last exhibition we had was at ATTA Gallery in Bangkok. Unfortunately, just at the time it was looking up with Covid, we thought we were going there. We bought the tickets, and then suddenly Thailand made some restrictions so we couldn’t go anyway. That was really sad, but we made this exhibition at ATTA Gallery where Marie-Louise Kristensen and I had invited seven other artists from Denmark making these—we call the exhibition COPENHAGEN ReARRANGED. It was basically about inspiring each other. As artists, we stand on the shoulders of many artists and designers before us, but we also get inspired to help each other. We all exchanged elements. I had very typical elements from what I’m doing, and I gave them to someone else in the group, and I received something from another person that I had to implement in a new piece. Denmark also has a long tradition of working together and the notion that you can do more together than alone. We have a lot of unions; we have a lot of them from old times, and these, I don’t know, communities—
Sharon: Like guilds?
Annette: Guilds, but also for housing. There are a lot of groups that join forces, and then you can do something as a group that you could never do alone. We have a long tradition of doing that. That school I mentioned before is also a part of that culture where you join forces. So, in this exhibition, we joined forces with other colleagues that we enjoy working with and made this exhibition. The artists had their own work, and then you could very easily see which was a collaborative work and which was not. It worked out, but we would have loved to go and list it at a gallery again.
Sharon: Will you be able to do that now?
Annette: Yes, now we can do it, but the exhibition is over. We’ll go another time. Actually, COPENHAGEN ReARRANGRD has been a gift to me. I’m also doing things with my friend and colleague. Marie-Louise Kristensen has made me do something I wouldn’t have done alone.
Sharon: That’s Marie-Louise Kristensen.
Annette: Yes.
Sharon: Another art jeweler who’s very creative, also.
Annette: Yes.
Sharon: I’m jumping around here, but you mentioned the collaboration. You’re starting to put something together that you call Spacious Copenhagen.
Annette: Yes.
Sharon: Tell us about that.
Annette: Yes. Marie-Louise Kristensen won’t be in that project because she would prefer to stay free in a way. I think I’m at the point in my career and life where I’m ready to establish something that binds me a little bit more in Copenhagen, and I would love to create this space that I’m missing myself in Copenhagen. I’m trying to create this platform and artist space gallery called Spacious Copenhagen. I have plans for three exhibitions next year. I’m starting out. That’s a lot of work before—Aleah – Is something missing here? Do I need to fill it out?)
Sharon: Yeah, I’m sure.
Annette: —if it’s a bigger group exhibition. I have these three ideas that I’m going to carry out, and in the meantime I’ll see if I can also find a permanent space in the inner city of Copenhagen ideally. I need to have funding and financial ballast to do that, but I’m starting out. I’m doing the platform and the website at the moment, so small steps, but I want to have this place where I can do whatever I want. I don’t have to apply for someone else’s space, and I can also invite internationally whomever I want. Ideally, I would also like to create something like an artist in residence over time. A lot of ideas, but I have to take small steps because I’m just me. And I´m not a full-time gallerist but an artist that aims to make an exhibition platform and doing my own work as well. (05_Annette Dam)
We don´t have many galleries showing art jewellery or museums with jewellery collections – the Danish Design Museum has some pieces in their general arts and craft collection, but not really a considerable collection representing the field. What we DO have though, is the Danish Arts foundation´s `jewelry box´ which consists of works they bought over, I think, the last 40 years, and those pieces of jewelry one can actually borrow and wear, if you in some ways are attending an official event or celebration.
The Danish Jewelry Box is a very special and democratic arrangement that you could probably do another podcast about – in that case I suggest that you talk with Anni Nørskov Mørch, who have an interesting jewelry journey of her own. (02_Annette Dam)
Sharon: What do Danish people say when you say you’re an artist-jeweler? Do they understand what you’re talking about? Because, you’re right, Denmark has a long history of this sort of thing.
Annette: Yeah, but we have a long history within goldsmithing, art and design. When I say I’m an art jeweler, they have two question marks in their eyes and they say, “Hm, combining art and jewelry, what is that? Is it still functional or are we offering something for an art department?” I have to explain what I’m doing in more detail before they actually know what I’m doing. We do have a long design history, and that’s very good. I really have a tradition to draw on and to reference. I use that in my pieces, but at the same time, it’s not as big a gift as some might think—not to me at least—because you’re also bound to it in a way. It’s hard to break loose and step into the art field, so it’s affected me there.
Sharon: How do you explain to people what you do when they have question marks in their eyes?
Annette: I get more concrete, and I show them and tell them the thoughts behind the actual piece. I’m getting much better at wearing my pieces, so they have the visual at the same time as me explaining. I think a lot of times they don’t have any visual images on their retinas, so it’s kind of hard to reference.
Sharon: Were you hesitant to wear your pieces?
Annette: At a certain point I was. I don’t know. I got a little bit shy and a little bit humble at the same time. I’m getting over it. I’m getting older. If I want this field to grow in Denmark, I need to represent it also in wearing it.
Sharon: That’s a good way to look at it. It’s so much easier to explain to somebody if you’re wearing the necklace or the neckpiece and saying, “This is what it is.” It must create a lot of conversations when you’re wearing it.
Annette: Yes, it does. People get amazed. They don’t know how much thought goes into it, that there are so many perspectives and that it conveys a lot of talk and discussion about issues. You can discuss things, because this is a starting point for my view on the things and then go from there.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Prince Dimitri
Prince Dimitri founded his company in 2007 after sixteen years as Senior Vice President of Jewelry with Sotheby’s and later as head of Jewelry at Phillips de Pury & Luxembourg auction houses.
Dimitri’s love of jewelry dates from his childhood and unique heritage of a family where the heads of European Royalty were closely tied together in an era of extreme opulence, beauty and culture all over Europe. He began designing jewelry in 1999, with a collection of gemstone cufflinks that was sold at Bergdorf Goodman and Saks Fifth Avenue. He also designed a line of women’s jewelry that was sold at Barneys New York and Neiman Marcus. He has designed for Asprey’s in London and done special lines for other American companies. With his own jewelry company he has been able to realize his own vision in his love of gemstones; the juxtaposition of unusual materials and color; imaginative forms and paying attention to detail and to superb craftsmanship.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Growing up surrounded by the world’s most beautiful jewels, it’s no wonder that Prince Dimitri became a jewelry designer known for his gemmy creations. After working in the auction world for many years, he launched Prince Dimitri Jewelry, which offers a range of jewels from affordable to six-figure masterpieces. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how jewelry became a symbol of royalty; the most memorable pieces that came across his desk at Sotheby’s and Phillips; and where royal jewelers throughout history found inspiration. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to thejewelryjourney.com. Today, my guest is Prince Dimitri of Yugoslavia. Welcome back.
You know so much about this, I’m sure, because of studying through auctions, but is it because you looked at Russian jewelry, too, as part of your background?
Prince: Yes, and I’ve read all the Cartier books. My favorite book of the moment, apart from mine, is the one of Francesca Cartier. I did a podcast with her. The beginning of a certain style of tiara was the tiara of Grand Duchess Vladimir, my great grandmother. She had invited him to her palace in St. Petersburg and introduced him to the court. There was a particular tiara she liked that is now the property of the Queen of England. It’s the favorite, actually, of the Queen of England, but Cartier also was her favorite. He asked her if she would be kind enough to loan it to him so he could get inspired by it. She, being the most important patron of the arts in Russia at the time, immediately said, “Yes, let them have it.”
His first tiara, he made it for an American heiress who had married one of the sons of the King of Greece. I show it in my book on two pages, one next to each other, the two tiaras. You can see exactly my great grandmother’s tiara in it, but you can see exactly the Cartier style as well. It’s unbelievable, the alchemy he did. He took the design, tweaked it, altered it, made some changes, and turned it into a typical Cartier thing. It’s the typical art of the French. French art, I would say from the Middle Ages on, and especially in the 18th and 19th centuries, was the art of taking an element from foreign cultures, but doing the magic of turning it into a specifically French product. You see that with porcelains, with furniture, with Japanese lacquers and the Chinese porcelains mounted in the French bronzes, all of that. That’s what Cartier wanted to reproduce in his workshop, this mentality of being able to create magic like that, which is true creativity. It all started during the Renaissance times, which marked the beginning of that mentality. Every artist today works based on that.
Sharon: You like paisley as a motif.
Prince: Yes, I love paisley.
Sharon: Why?
Prince: Because the shape is so pretty, and the history is so interesting. It is believed that it arrived in Iran and India more or less at the same time, during the conquest of Alexander the Great. He conquered half of the world in those days, and he died pretty young, at the age of 30, I think, in India. A lot of his armies didn’t want to go back to Greece and just settled in India and then Iran. On the artifacts they had with them was a shape that was very similar to the paisley. It was the mango. The mango, in ancient Greek decorative arts, represented the symbol of fertility.
Sharon: What was the name of it?
Prince: The mango, the fruit.
Sharon: Oh, mango, O.K.
Prince: Yes, the Greek mango was the symbol of creativity, fertility and all that. The Persians and the Indians were already an advanced civilization, and they loved the shape and created their own out of it. It’s different from the mango, but when you see the two together, you understand how it originated.
It then came back to Europe in the 19th century. There was a huge revival of paisley, and it was immediately applied to fabrics. The center of fabric in Europe was a town in Scotland where they made all the famous shawls that all the elegant ladies of the 19th century wore. The name of that city in Scotland was Paisley. That’s why it’s called paisley. In French we call it the Kashmir motif, and in Italian also, because it’s from the Kashmir region of India. They made it very popular to the western world after it disappeared. It never came back. It’s this idea of art going back and forth between different continents, which I find fascinating.
Sharon: Your jewelry is mostly by commission. Is it somebody bringing you a bag of their grandmother’s stuff and saying, “What you can you do with this?” or is it, “My wife has a birthday coming up. What can you do?”
Prince: Exactly. We do a lot of that, or cufflinks for the husband or little pendants for young men for graduations. I do Damascus steel corsets, Damascus steel being the metal with which they made the swords for the crusaders. It’s folding sheets of steel, like how you fold sheets to make a croissant, like a baked pastry. In my book, you will see how when you cut it, the way it’s folded appears. It gives a wonderful design to the steel itself, and then you apply stones to it, and it makes something very, very interesting. I try and make it into my style of design at the same time to make it more interesting.
Sharon: And you say it’s appealing to your male clients?
Prince: Male clients or female clients who like more toned-down jewelry, more masculine jewelry, because some jewelry is masculine. During the whole Art Deco period and the retro period, all of a sudden they veered away from all the flowers and the fussy things from before to make more geometric forms, which were more masculine. So did fashion. The fashion was more strict. There were fewer feathers, less fabric. It’s a back and forth in history between the energies of yin and yang. You see it in decorative arts.
Sharon: Do you find it’s become more popular or growing in popularity? What’s the market?
Prince: The market nowadays is for smaller things that you can wear all the time and that you can dress up and down. I make things you can wear with a ball gown that will look amazing, but you could also wear it with a jean and a white T-shirt. It has this chameleon aspect to it. It will blend into your outfit and people won’t realize what you’re wearing. This is good. You want only the opinion of those who understand jewelry. You want them to understand. To people who don’t understand, it doesn’t matter. Stuff like that.
Sharon: I think—and this is based on some of the reading I was doing—you talked about it being very chic to mix the high with the low.
Prince: Yeah, to mix things like that. I remember during my second year at Sotheby’s in Geneva, there was a lady who walked in who looked like a model. She was a model; she was actually a Serbian model of unbelievable beauty. She was wearing a white T-shirt and jeans and high heels, and on her pinkie finger she had stuck two rings. One was an emerald-cut, D flawless diamond of 30 carats, and the other one was a 25-carat cushion-cut Kashmir sapphire. I spotted those and I said, “Is this what I think it is?” and she said, “Yes, absolutely.” You know who that lady was? Mrs. Rizzoli.
Sharon: I’m sorry, who?
Prince: It was Mrs. Rizzoli.
Sharon: Mrs. Rizzoli, the publisher?
Prince: Yeah. I was told afterwards when she left, but it’s Rizzoli who did my book. I always remember what an interesting way of wearing jewelry it was. She has certainly influence my creativity, I think.
Sharon: I’m sorry; I’m just not following. Because you would expect somebody like that to be dressed a lot more formally?
Prince: I had never seen somebody with a jean and T-shirt wearing a 30-carat, D flawless diamond. She was wearing $10 million of diamonds on that finger, and nobody paid attention. I spotted it immediately because gems speak to me.
Sharon: When they speak to you, are they telling you what to do with them?
Prince: Yes, sometimes, but I don’t know. The first thing I notice is jewelry. It’s like a sixth sense I have.
Sharon: I don’t know how many places somebody’s going to walk in with a 30-carat, D flawless diamond. Maybe in New York. How many do you see? I don’t see that many, anyway.
Prince: Not anymore. Yeah, not anymore.
Sharon: You’ve probably seen a million. When I think of the high and the low, I think of people describing wearing something from Target and then something from, I don’t know, Tiffany. Maybe not so much anymore.
Prince: Yeah, from Tiffany, of course, or Cartier or anything. Even Fabergé.
Sharon: Yes. You talked too about having different lines at different price points. You have it for the ultra-rich and then you have it—
Prince: At every price point there is, because I like the challenge of being able to do something very pretty that’s affordable. With unlimited budgets it’s easier, but I also like the challenge. For instance, this is the best example. The other day, I had to do an engagement ring for the daughter of a friend of mine. The boyfriend of the fiancé couldn’t afford much. He didn’t have a very big budget, and he was wondering if we could do a mounting that would make the diamond look bigger and add two on the sides and all that. I said, “No, no, no. You don’t want a ring that says, ‘This is all I can afford.’ You want a ring that says, ‘I have fabulous taste, and this is it.’” So, I gave him a one-and-a-half-carat diamond, which is small, but I did a really nice mounting. We did something called the love note on each side.
Sharon: The love song?
Prince: The love note. The love note is also known as the note of Savoy, which I speak a lot about in my book and my Instagram. It’s the symbol of true love, and it comes with a motto: It binds you, but it doesn’t constrain. I said, “You already have a wonderful symbol in this thing. We’re going to make it in platinum. There’s no underhand. I want the diamond to touch the skin of your fiancé so she can feel it on the palm. It’s going to be a work of art.” It worked. We kept the budget under $20,000.
Sharon: Wow! It’s a love dot?
Prince: A love note.
Sharon: Is it a little knot on the side?
Prince: It’s a love note, two of them. It’s shaped like a figure eight, like an infinity note; one going up, one going down. It’s the note Savoy. You’ll see it in my book and on my website. I did an entire collection called “The New Look of Love,” and I do the colored version of it in gold with little cabochon stones. They are about $4,000 or $5,000 and they’re super nice.
Sharon: And you find those do well for you?
Prince: Yes.
Sharon: I’m curious what you think. I was listening to a podcast this morning talking about inflation and whether there’s going to be a recession with a little “r” or a big “r.” What do you see in terms of jewelry right now? How is the market for jewelry? Are people uncertain?
Prince: People are uncertain. It will slow down. I happen to be lucky right now. I have had a ton of orders lined up, but I don’t know how long it will last. It all depends on how the economy does. It’s always like that.
Sharon: Maybe you haven’t experienced it for a while, but when times are slower in terms of jewelry, are you doing more drawings in preparation for when things pick up?
Prince: Yes, I do that. In 2008, I did that. I was drawing a lot because I like to draw.
Sharon: Do you wake up full of ideas?
Prince: Sometimes, yes. Not every day, but all of a sudden I do have ideas.
Sharon: And they’re coming from things around you and things you see and what you read and history, like you talked about.
Prince: Yes, anything I could see in the street, for instance, any object, sometimes out of nothing comes an idea. You know what they say: for those who listen, even stones speak.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I haven’t heard that before. I think that’s a great line.
You talk about Catherine the Great being one of your ancestors. She was a fabulous marketer through her jewelry; her jewelry was a form of marketing. Could you tell us more about that?
Prince: Yes. She normally had a gold dress. The dress was very important. She had something like 150 brooches sewn on the dress. She looked like a Christmas tree, plus the tiara and the crown behind all of that. She understood that somebody walked into the palace in St. Petersburg, let’s say. If they saw her looking like that, they would instantly know that was the empress and that’s what she did. In a way, she invented the outfit, the uniform of an empress.
It’s funny you say that, because years later my grandmother told me, “Tiaras always give me a headache.” I said, “And could you not wear them?” She said, “No, I had to wear them because that’s what was expected of us. It was our uniform. We had to wear tiaras and jewelry and look the part because that’s what we were; that’s what our job was.” You see it today. The Queen of England, who’s a genius at what she does, is always the most elegant woman in England. If you didn’t know she was the queen, which is impossible in the modern day because everybody knows what she looks like, but if you saw a lady dressed like that, you would instantly know she’s somebody very important.
Sharon: You’re communicating through your jewelry.
Prince: Yes, it’s a uniform in a way. If you’re a policeman, you were a policeman’s uniform. If you’re a nurse, you wear a nurse’s uniform. If you’re a princess or queen, you wear that kind of uniform.
Sharon: Which raises a question as you’re talking, I’m thinking, “Why put tiaras with your jeans?” I don’t know.
Prince: No, that you can’t do. That is the one thing left that—first of all, you have to be of noble or royal blood, and it’s only with a white tie on certain, very rare occasions.
Sharon: Do you have to be noble if you can afford it? I’m just wondering.
Prince: Yeah. The protocol is that it’s only ladies of the nobility and of the aristocracy, meaning the nobility or the royalty, only those ladies are allowed a tiara, and they have to be married. Normally unmarried girls don’t wear tiaras yet.
Sharon: Interesting.
Prince: No.
Sharon; Did you have a lot of tiaras cross your desk when you were in the auction houses?
Prince: Yes, quite a few from royal families in Europe. Yeah, very nice ones.
Sharon: Did they want them melted down, or did they want you to try and auction them as tiaras?
Prince: Auction them as tiaras, because it makes more money like that.
Sharon: Yes, I suppose—well, I don’t. Would it? I guess it depends on what it was made of.
Prince: If you can wear it as a necklace, then it makes a lot of money. If you can’t wear it as a necklace, then it sells for less because it’s more a difficult thing to wear. A lot of those tiaras were necklaces fixed on an invisible frame that you put on your head. It stands up straight, and then you unscrew everything and you can turn it into a necklace, which was a very clever invention done in the 19th century. The Russians were the masters of that, jewels with a variable geometry, I call them.
Sharon: Jewels with a variable geometry. I think of the pieces that come apart as being more from the 30s and 40s, but you’re saying it was done earlier.
Prince: Well before, at the end of the 19th century. The Russians did that. You could take the center parts and wear them as brooches.
Sharon: I’m surprised to hear that you’re not talking about Fabergé jewels. Did you see those? Were they in your background?
Prince: I sold those, yes, but those were extremely, extremely rare. The most famous one in existence today is the Cyclamen Tiara of the Duchess of Westminster in England, which also unmounted to become a necklace. It’s absolutely a dream of a tiara. My grandmother had some necklaces and pendants and little things, but not many important ones.
Sharon: Fabergé, she had.
Prince: Yeah, it was mostly objects and little jewels. But tiaras, there were very few made, and they disappeared during the Revolution.
Sharon: Prince Dimitri, where do you want to take your business from here?
Prince: I want to keep on growing, wherever that will be.
Sharon: Have you found it to be any help or impediment, being a prince? It must be, “Oh my god, it’s a prince.” There’s an attraction there, but has it been an impediment in what you do?
Prince: No, not really. You’re right; there’s always a curiosity, but after a while, that’s it. There’s also a human being.
Sharon: When people ask you what you are a prince of, what do you say? A Yugoslavian prince?
Prince: Yugoslavia, yeah. That’s my birthright. When we were born, Yugoslavia still existed, even though it was a Communist country. Titles go on forever. They don’t change in case of mutations or geopolitical upheavals and stuff like that. It’s a birthright that follows the family forever because it proceeds from the family itself. One studies that in constitutional law in Europe, funnily enough, because some countries still recognize titles, the ones where there’s a monarchy. On my English passport and Belgian passport, my title is written because they recognize it. On my American passport and my Italian passport, it’s not written.
Sharon: Has it influenced your jewelry in any way?
Prince: No, it’s all aesthetics. It’s only about aesthetics.
Sharon: So it’s removed from that.
Prince: Yeah. Movement is very important.
Sharon: What’s your favorite jewel? What’s your favorite gem?
Prince: I don’t have a favorite gem because I really love all of them, but I have a favorite color combination, which is greens and blues together. For instance, there is nothing I like more than the mixture of aquamarine, emerald and sapphire together. There are lot of examples in my book based on that.
Sharon: How about the cut? Is there a favorite cut you have of a gem?
Prince: I like emerald cuts. I like a square emerald cut with cut corners. I like antique cushion cuts very much, and I love cabochon also.
Sharon: Do you work with all those?
Prince: I work with all of those. I also like pear shape, but it all depends on how it’s cut. Some cuts don’t work; others do. I like unusual cuts also, different shapes that are not seen very often. It depends on how you combine them.
Sharon: Right. I guess that’s the artistry.
Prince: Yes.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today and telling us about your line of jewelry. We can find it at Neiman Marcus. Besides that there’s the book, which we can find—
Prince: You can find it on my website, Dimitri.com. You can find it on Amazon also. You can find it at Neiman Marcus in Dallas, Texas for the moment, along with a collection I designed specifically for them.
Sharon: For Neiman Marcus in Dallas. When you say specifically for them, how would it have been different if you had done it for Neiman Marcus in Los Angeles, for instance? What was specific?
Prince: From the moment I sold to Neiman Marcus, it was the one in Dallas. We just started last fall, and it’s a variation of the cufflinks I was telling you about before. It’s stones inside of stones, but with different colors, different assortments, a different way of designing it. Similar but different. That’s what I’m doing only for Neiman Marcus.
Sharon: Do you see it throughout the states, though, in other places?
Prince: No.
Sharon: It’s basically Neiman.
Prince: Neiman in Dallas for the moment. I’m hoping to expand that.
Sharon: Well, we’ll look for you elsewhere, and we’ll also look at the book. Thank you so much for being with us today. We greatly appreciate it.
Prince: Thank you so much. It was so kind of you to invite me. I’m very touched.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Prince Dimitri
Prince Dimitri founded his company in 2007 after sixteen years as Senior Vice President of Jewelry with Sotheby’s and later as head of Jewelry at Phillips de Pury & Luxembourg auction houses.
Dimitri’s love of jewelry dates from his childhood and unique heritage of a family where the heads of European Royalty were closely tied together in an era of extreme opulence, beauty and culture all over Europe. He began designing jewelry in 1999, with a collection of gemstone cufflinks that was sold at Bergdorf Goodman and Saks Fifth Avenue. He also designed a line of women’s jewelry that was sold at Barneys New York and Neiman Marcus. He has designed for Asprey’s in London and done special lines for other American companies. With his own jewelry company he has been able to realize his own vision in his love of gemstones; the juxtaposition of unusual materials and color; imaginative forms and paying attention to detail and to superb craftsmanship.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Growing up surrounded by the world’s most beautiful jewels, it’s no wonder that Prince Dimitri became a jewelry designer known for his gemmy creations. After working in the auction world for many years, he launched Prince Dimitri Jewelry, which offers a range of jewels from affordable to six-figure masterpieces. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how jewelry became a symbol of royalty; the most memorable pieces that came across his desk at Sotheby’s and Phillips; and where royal jewelers throughout history found inspiration. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Prince Dimitri of Yugoslavia. After more than a decade in the auction world, rising to the top of the jewelry ranks, Prince Dimitri took his love of gems and launched Prince Dimitri Jewelry. He is also an author, having written “Once Upon a Diamond: A Family Tradition of Royal Jewels.” The book has been described as an extraordinary family scrapbook. It has photographs of his relatives, who are celebrities and royalty, showing them wearing their jaw-dropping jewels. It weaves in stories of his illustrious family background and the history that goes behind the photographs. We’ll hear more about Prince Dimitri and his jewelry as well as his jewelry journey today. Prince Dimitri, welcome to the program.
Prince: Thank you. Hello, Sharon. So nice to see you.
Sharon: Nice to see you.
Prince: I heard so much about you.
Sharon: Dimitri, I’m going to let you tell everybody what your official name is because I could not pronounce it. I saw different variations. Go ahead.
Prince: It’s a Serbian name. It’s pronounced Karageorgevich, and it’s written with letters that don’t exist in our alphabet.
Sharon: I didn’t realize that. It’s interesting; in everything I saw about you, it gave your name, but I didn’t realize it was Serbian. Tell us about your jewelry journey.
Prince: It all started as a child. I was obsessed with gems, totally fascinated when I saw my mother and my grandmothers wearing jewelry. When we were in the street and there was a jewelry store, I had to go in and look, and I would stare at the showcases. It never left me. I think I was born with it. It’s my passion in life. I joined Sotheby’s in 1984 and I stayed there until 2001. Then I was at Phillips for three years. Little by little, I started designing, and now it’s all I do.
Sharon: I thought it was interesting; some of the material I read said you started making jewelry because you decided you’d seen everything there was to see in jewelry after so long in the auction world. Tell us a little bit about that.
Prince: It’s not exactly like that. I started designing cufflinks when I was at Sotheby’s totally by chance. I had no idea I could design anything or that I was slightly creative. I was a gemologist and expert. I appraised jewelry, and that’s all I did. Then a friend of mine had some cufflinks he had made in Brazil with some lovely stones, but a very ugly mounting with thick claws around it. I looked at it and I thought, “You know, I love those stones, but those big, thick claws around it are so clumsy. You need to remount them.” He said, “How should we remount them?” All of a sudden, my mind went blank. I saw a little hole, and I said, “That’s it. You’re going to drill a hole in the center of the cufflinks. In that hole, you’re going to set a little diamond or a ruby or an emerald or a sapphire. It has to be a precious stone, one of those four. That will be how you mount it, through the stones. What you’ll see on your shirt will be that lovely, emerald-cut aquamarine with a little stone in the center.” Slick, clean, very gemmy, very chic, I thought. He did it, and it worked beautifully.
He said, “Why don’t we do a collection like that?” Long story short, we did the collection. It ended up at Bergdorf, at Saks. Little by little, I said, “Let’s make some rings and some bracelets and some necklaces on the same principle. All of it,” and we made all that. We were doing trunk shows on the side, as I was still at Sotheby’s then, and little by little, it took on a life of its own. Then I was given an offer to join Phillips with a group of other people. It was at the time when Sotheby’s was going through major changes and nothing was very happy there anymore, so I thought, “Why not?” That didn’t last very long, the Phillips adventure, so I continued.
Then, I was approached by a wonderful man who was called Salvador Assael, the king of pearls in those days. After the war, he had convinced all the big houses that black pearls were not black because they were dirty; they were black because it was a beautiful color. He finally opened their eyes. He told me the story of how they would look at the pearls and say, “But these are black pearls. They’re dirty. Pearls are supposed to be white,” and he told them, “No, open your eyes. Look at this. This one is a green one. This one is a pinkish one. This one is a peacock one with mixes of green and purple,” and they loved it. He became the number one wholesaler of pearls.
Sharon: Is that Assael?
Prince: Assael, yeah.
Sharon: Wow!
Prince: He’s very famous. He called me one day. He said, “You know, I love the old jewels and everything you make.” It was after 9/11. The market was not doing well for jewelry anywhere. He said to me, “I can’t sell anything anymore because there are only so many strands of pearls people want. Do you think you can design a collection for me? More importantly, do you like pearls?” I said, “Yes, I absolutely love pearls.” We made this collection, and before you knew it, we were in every Neiman Marcus in America except three or four of them, I think. We were in 35 Neiman Marcuses. We were the number two seller at Neiman Marcus and it became a huge success.
Then I met my business partner who put me in business to be a serious company. That was 2008, so things didn’t work as well as I wished. I had to go on my own because he couldn’t funnel any more into it, and now that’s all I do. I’m back at Neiman Marcus in Dallas, but the bulk of my business now is one-of-a-kind pieces. That’s what I really like. As I say in the preface of my book, I like the concept of alchemy. Bring me some lead; I will turn it into gold. All my friends look into their drawers and find these old stones and granny’s pearl necklaces that they can’t wear because they’re so dated and all of that. Sometimes they bring me bags of things that are totally unrelated and I do the magic. Half of the jewels in the book are made like that.
One of the typical examples: I was in Southampton with a friend. We were picking up pebbles on the beach together one day in August. We go home. She shows me these diamond earrings she wants me to remount, these little strings of diamonds that are badly made and boring. I went into the bowl where we had placed all the pebbles. I picked four of the most similar ones, and I said, “Here. This is where your diamonds are going. This is going to be your necklace.” She thought I was completely crazy. She said, “I know you are original and you have ideas, but—"
Sharon: You were mixing pebbles and diamonds? Is that what you were doing?
Prince: Yes. She said, “You’re going to have to explain this to me.” I said, “I will. I will do a drawing for you, and you will make your decision.” So, I did the drawing. I get a phone call from her a few days later. She goes, “I love it. I need this necklace more than I’ve ever needed a piece of jewelry.” It’s featured in the book; you’ll see it.
Sharon: How did the book come about? Did you want to write the book? Did Rizzoli come to you?
Prince: The same way the first cufflinks came to me: totally by chance. It’s one of the miracles of modern technology. It’s called Instagram. I put all my jewelry on Instagram, but I have tons of old photos from the family, and I post them and write fascinating stories of what all these people have done. For instance, how my great-grandmother saved the life of Albert Einstein; how Adolph Hitler kidnaped the sister of my grandfather and had them killed in a concentration camp. Some of them are beautiful stories; some are very, very tragic, but there are many of them. Somebody from Rizzoli sent me a message on Instagram saying, “I love your Instagram. We should make a book based on that concept. I need to talk to you.” Long story short, it took two and a half years, and here we are.
Sharon: Somebody should put together a book of all the stories of everything that’s come from Instagram, because people have started jewelry lines and written books from it. It’s really launched a lot of people. Was it hard for you to gather all the material, or did you already have it?
Prince: I already had all the material. What I didn’t have, my mother had. Also, some uncles and aunts and relatives had it, so that was easy. The difficult part was how we were going to make it work. We had to put the chapters in order. It was like a puzzle. We had everything on the floor in our minds, with the different chapters and stories and everything. Little by little, it came together. Everybody had a great idea. I had great ideas.
They lady who wrote the book with me had a great idea. She was a fantastic fact checker. She discovered, for instance, that—one of the stories I tell is how, before the war, my grandmother, then Crown Princess of Italy, had discovered Maria Montessori of the famous Montessori School. She decided she loved that program so much, because it was so modern and interesting and ahead of its time, that she wanted to create her own Montessori School at the royal palace for her children and children of the nobility.
My mother told me, “Yes, it was fantastic. Here’s the photo.” The school was in the Gallery Uffizi in Florence, which had been turned into a palace one year before, in 1942. She said, “Yes, and Maria Montessori was so nice. I remember her.” Well, it was a fictitious memory my mother had because she was eight years old. We found out through fact checking that Maria Montessori was actually in India for eight years at the time. The person she met was the associate of Maria Montessori who founded the school with her. My mother assumed that, because her mother was who she was, it was actually Maria Montessori herself who came, but it wasn’t the case. We discovered lots of stories like that.
Sharon: Interesting.
Prince: We discovered that my grandmother’s famous Cartier jewelry was not Cartier jewelry. I pressed and pressed the wonderful gentleman at the Cartier archives, the poor thing. I tortured him so much that he had to do three months of research to find out that it was my great grandmother, the Grand Duchess Vladimir of Russia, who came to Cartier to buy some things and asked him if they could repair this tiara she had in her bag. It was a tiara from Chaumet, and nobody knew it. In every history book, it’s listed as the Cartier Tiara.
I had just enough time to jump on my phone and call the editor at Rizzoli when we were already in full print. I said, “This is what’s going on. We need to change the story.” They said, “You can delete the word Cartier. That’s all I can do for you. It’s too late.” We were in the middle of Covid. The paperwork was done in Bologna, which was the center of printing in Italy. “That chapter is going to be printed six hours from now, so let me hang up and call them.”
Sharon: Is that what you did? You just didn’t use the word?
Prince: We just removed that, yeah. We couldn’t say anything more, but I speak about it all the time. So, now people know.
Sharon: Interesting. I’ve seen the book and I’ve looked through it, but I don’t come from an illustrious background like you do. My ancestors were not royalty, so I didn’t relate to it as much, but now this humanizes it.
Prince: Yes. There are 16 pages of Romanov photos that have never been published before because I owned the four albums they were in, and I’ve never shown them to anybody. These are really interesting because it shows them in day-to-day life. They are in the south of France. They go to a spa in Gautreau, Seville, famous for its water. They visit the house of Joan of Arc. It’s really interesting.
The most fascinating series of photos is the second Olympic Games in history, photographed by my great grandmother. It’s all there in the book. There were also photos in Venice and photos in Spain at the bullfights, but we decided not to show the bullfight because it could be controversial. In those days, it wasn’t.
Sharon: You’ve lived all over the world. Prior to coming to the auction world, you went to school in Switzerland, then France?
Prince: I was in law school in Switzerland for a while, then in France. Then I did law school in Paris.
Sharon: When did you do GIA?
Prince: When I came to New York. When I finished law school, I had so many friends already in New York. New York was this magic world far away from us. There was something very exotic about America and New York. It was quite fascinating, so I decided to come here and finish my law studies. I had my degree already, but I thought it would be a good idea to do a training program on Wall Street, which is what lots of European people did. So, I did that on Wall Street for almost a year. It was very interesting. I learned a lot of things, but I wasn’t particularly ready to make it a career. There was an opening at Sotheby’s that I found out about, and that’s how it happened.
Sharon: Was it a huge decision, or was it a natural segue to go into that world from the world you were in, the business world?
Prince: Yes, it was a big decision. It was a very exciting decision. It was a logical thing to do because I have this Renaissance mentality. I think one should know about everything in life. I felt that with a law degree and a kind of Wall Street degree, which is a Series 7—it’s the exams you take to become a stockbroker—I thought, “I’m well educated enough to do what I really like, which is gemology and stones and jewelry and all of that.”
I worked at Sotheby’s right away. I knew enough about jewelry that I could become an expert right away, in the sense that I needed to learn gemology at the GIA, which I went did by following the prices in the market. Pretty quickly I moved up and became after six or seven years, I think, a senior vice president for the company.
Sharon: What was it about the auction world combined with jewelry that attracted you?
Prince: The amount of jewelry we sold every day, that was the exciting part. For every auction you see, the catalogue you see four times a year in New York, three times a year in Geneva, four times a year in London, and, in those days, also in Hong Kong, that catalogue represents the tip of the iceberg of what comes in and out the doors of Sotheby’s. Every day, it was mountains of jewelry. It was so exciting to see so much. I’m very impatient. I want to see a lot. One diamond that’s there day after day if you work in a shop is not exciting enough for me.
Sharon: You need the constant turnover and attraction.
Prince: Yes. That was great. One day we discovered, literally in a shoe box in a bank vault on Park Avenue, one of the most famous Cartier tiaras. The same one is in one of the Cartier books today. The lady who had it had no idea. She said, “I have this funny thing that goes on the head from my grandmother. Do you think it’s worth anything?” I was like, “Yes! It’s fantastic.”
Sharon: Wow! What else is in shoe boxes that we don’t know about, right?
Prince: There were lots of things like that. My most beautiful story from Sotheby’s, I have to say, was when this poor lady came in. She was a bag lady, literally, in tears and very nervous. I felt there was something going on there. She told me the tragic story of how her husband had divorced her, took all her money, and she had literally one little sapphire ring. She was hoping to get $2,000 to just be able to pay her rent or she was going to be evicted. She was going to be on the street. She starts crying and crying, and she said, “Do you think you can loan me the money?” I said, “Well, can I please see the ring?” She looks at me and goes, “Here it is. Do you think I can get maybe $10,000? Would that be possible? And you could loan me $2,000?”
I take a look at it. It is the most beautiful Kashmir sapphire I saw in my entire life. I said, “I think I can get more. Let me speak to my boss for the loan. Let me see.” I call everybody. I said, “Guys, you won’t believe this.” I tell them the story. They all look at the stone and everybody says, “Oh, my god! We’ve never seen a stone like that.” My boss says, “You know we don’t loan money against one piece.” I said, “John, she thinks it’s worth $10,000. Let’s offer her $75,000 to $100,000 for the ring and let it sell for over $200,000.” He goes, “Fine.”
I go back in the room with a check with me. I said, “Listen, it’s your lucky day. That is a lovely ring. I think we can put an estimate of $75,000 to $100,000.” She almost fainted. She goes, “Oh, my god!” Three months later, she comes to the auction. We opened the bid at $75,000. Before you know it, the hammer falls, and it sells for $380,000. She is sitting in front of me sobbing and crying, and then all of us start crying because we knew the story. It is a lovely story because we really changed the life of somebody.
Sharon: That’s true. You did the change her life, it sounds like. From there you moved to Phillips. From Sotheby’s, you moved to Phillips?
Prince: Yeah.
Sharon: And you were head of the jewelry department there?
Prince: Yes.
Sharon: Where were you when the man from Brazil came to you with the first cufflinks?
Prince: I was at Sotheby’s then. It was in 1997. It was 40 years before I left Sotheby’s, so I was starting that process little by little then.
Sharon: In your jewelry, you barely see the jewelry part; you see the gem. Is it the gems that are talking to you?
Prince: Both. I love that. A lot of my jewelry is very gemmy, like you say. You’re absolutely right, but a lot of it based on whimsical ideas, unusual materials like the pebbles from the beach or even rubber cords. I do things mounted on leather, Damascus steel, oxidized bronze, oxidized silver. 24-karat gold I use a lot. I do all sorts of things. The other source of inspiration is the shapes, shapes as you see them in decorative arts of every culture in the world.
That was the philosophy of Cartier. He instructed, already in the 19th century, the designers who worked for him to look at the decorative arts and to travel and take notes and make drawings of everything they saw, because that was the basis for all sorts of things. In the 19th century, there was a very famous book written, which is called “The Grammar of Ornament.” “The Grammar of Ornament” is a visual dictionary of every artistic style that ever existed in history in any country in the world. It’s absolutely fantastic, and I’ve gotten tons and tons of ideas from there. So did the people at Cartier at the beginning.
For instance, the Edwardian period of Cartier, it coincided with two things: when they rediscovered the Louis XVI decorative arts style with the garlands—it was called the garland style—and the introduction of platinum. Platinum in the old days was not considered a precious metal; it was for industrial applications. Then, when they studied it, they realized how hard it was and how white it was. So, it quickly replaced silver.
If you look at tiaras made with silver, which are the oldest ones from the first half of the 19th century, they are very heavy. They are lovely, but there’s something about them. With the introduction of platinum, Cartier was able to transform them into literally a spiderweb, completely ethereal. That’s when they double in size. They’re ten times as thin and you can put twice the amount of stones. It sits like an aura on your head. That is what gave them the impetus to create the garland style, the classical Art Deco that mutated into Art Deco. At the time, platinum became such a success that it became seven times more expensive than gold.
Sharon: Wow!
Prince: It’s interesting, yeah?
Sharon: Yes, very.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About John Rose and Corliss Rose
2Roses is a collaboration of t Corliss Rose and John Lemieux Rose.
The studio, located in Southern California, is focused on producing one-of-a-kind and limited-edition adornment and objects d’art, and is well known for its use of a wide range of highly unorthodox materials.
The studio output is eclectic by design and often blended with an irreverent sense of humor. 2Roses designs are sold in 42 countries worldwide and are exhibited in major art institutions in the US, Europe, and China.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
For John and Corliss Rose, business and artistic expression don’t have to be in conflict. Entering the art world through apprenticeships, they learned early on that with a little business sense, they didn’t need to be starving artists. Now as the collaborators behind the design studio 2Roses (one of several creative businesses they share), John and Corliss produce one-of-a-kind art jewelry made of polymer clay, computer chips, and other odd material. They joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about their efforts to get business classes included in art school curriculum; why polymer clay jewelry has grown in popularity; and how they balance business with their artistic vision. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guests are designers John and Corliss of the eclectic design firm 2Roses. Located in Southern California, they sell worldwide. 2Roses in an award-winning design recognized for their use of unusual materials. Welcome back.
When you look at these things, do you have visions right away? Does something jump out at you that says, “Oh, there’s a pair of earrings,” or “There’s a pendant. I can do something with this”?
John: Sometimes.
Corliss: Sometimes. With the way I personally work, I have a table full of all sorts of things. I’ll take a certain amount of time and just look and pick and group and put this away. It’s almost like a cat playing with a couple of little toys. You put it over here and you scoot it over there. Then we’ll have dialogue about it, and we’ll talk about things. Then it’ll rest, and it’ll come back. Sometimes the decision is immediate; sometimes it takes a little while. It’s just the process. It’s the same thing when John works. He’s a little more direct than I am. I’ve learned from a couple of other peers that it’s very helpful to have many, many things at the table at the time, because you can look at a variety of things and the mind just flows. It’s like automatic writing. But John’s very direct. He’ll go through a process and then say, “Come here. Let’s talk about this,” and we’ll talk about something.
Sharon: What’s the division of responsibility between the two of you? Does one person do the back-office stuff and the other person makes? Do both of you do the creative aspect? How does that work?
John: We’re very collaborative. It’s a very fluid process. I always refer it to as improvisational jewelry design. We don’t set out with a plan to make a series of things, although themes and series have evolved organically through the process. We see these themes—moral themes, humor, political or social statements—just keep cropping up on their own to our particular point of view. But within the jewelry production design, it’s really—
Corliss: It’s fluid. Depending on the task that needs to be done, some things I will be better at soldering. There are some things that John does. He does a lot of—
John: Welding.
Corliss: Machinery and welding and things of that sort, engraving. That’s where things maybe get a little compartmentalized. Not in the creative thinking process, but in the actual, physical production stages. “O.K., I’ll take this stage. You do that better, so you do that and we’ll talk about it.” That’s what happens.
John: We don’t want to get too far away from our business sides, like, “O.K., who’s more efficient for the task?” But we do have certain divisions of tasks. On the back end, when it comes to the hard business stuff, Corliss tends to be the accountant. I’m the sales and marketing guy. She does all the web work. I do social media. I’ll do photography and she’ll do inventory. We do have certain tasks we fall into, but it tends to be more business operations than the creative work or production.
Sharon: Interesting. How many other businesses do you have? John, you have a multi-media empire it seems. What do you have here?
John: The main corporation is called Mindsparq. That’s really an umbrella corporation. Underneath that, we have a variety of different business entities. There’s the marketing company. There’s 2Roses Jewelry. We have an education arm, a publishing arm, photography. I do a lot of restoration work.
Sharon: Restoration? I’m sorry, I didn’t hear that.
John: Of jewelry antiquities.
Sharon: Oh, really. Interesting, O.K.
John: We’re working with a lot of museums, auction houses, things like that, movie studios. That’s turned into a whole thing unto itself. Then we do light manufacturing. There are a lot of different business entities. Some are intertwined with the jewelry; some are not.
Sharon: Corliss, you’re doing the teaching on the educational videos or the educational aspect. How does that work?
Corliss: Yes, a lot more video now. I found that Zoom has opened up a whole wonderful world for expanding education, where I used to have to rely on being someplace in person, and the students had to rely on airfare, hotel rooms, that sort of thing. I have a very international following with online instruction in all different variants. It has proven to be not only lucrative, but very rewarding personally. John has been very instrumental in helping get the lighting and the connectivity set up and teaching me about different cameras and how to adjust them while I’m doing my instruction, that sort of thing. It’s worked out very well.
John: I keep her on her marks.
Corliss: Oh, yes.
Sharon: It’s so meticulous when you’re trying to demonstrate something like jewelry making, metalsmithing, how to weld something, how to incorporate metal into this or that, because you’re so close. It’s like a cooking class in a sense. How do you show how to do it?
John: Yeah. Actually, the things we were doing with cooking demonstrations when Corliss was more involved in that helped us a lot when we started doing jewelry demonstrations and workshops. Basically, the videography and the whole setup is very, very similar.
Sharon: So, you were ready when Covid came around. When everybody was on lockdown, you were already up and running.
John: We were.
Corliss: Yeah.
John: Actually, what you’re seeing behind us, we’re in our broadcast studio now.
Corliss: With some of the equipment behind us.
John: Yeah, when Covid hit, we made the investment to set up a complete streaming broadcast studio because it was obvious that this was going to be the transitional network. It wasn’t going to just be for the next six months.
Corliss: We’ve always been very pragmatic about trends and where everything is going. During the pandemic, we saw Zoom as something that was going to outlast the pandemic. It was going to cause a shift in education and a lot of other things, business meetings. So, we took the time to invest in learning the software and watching all the how-to videos and getting questions answered. We wanted to be able to hit the ground running with a certain amount of knowledge and have things work correctly, have that person’s first impression be a good one, whether it was a student or I was doing a board meeting or whatever. We just saw that as the right thing to do.
Sharon: Do you see trends both with jewelry and with this? Zoom will continue, but do you see more polymer clay? Maybe it’s me. It seems to have subsided. Maybe it was a big thing when it came out. I heard more about it, and now it’s—not run of the mill; that’s too much—but it’s more widespread, so people aren’t talking about it as much. What are your thoughts about that?
Corliss: You’re talking about the polymer clay, correct?
Sharon: Yes.
Corliss: There have been advancements made within the community, but I actually see the most innovative work coming out of Eastern Europe. There’s a design aesthetic there that is very traditional and very guild-oriented. There’s a different appreciation of fine art over there, where in America this is a craft media; it’s something to introduce young children to. There’s nothing wrong with that at all, but it’s just a different perspective on it.
John: I was just going to add that what you see in Europe is more professional artists.
Corliss: Yes.
John: Mature, professional studio practices incorporating very sophisticated raw material. Right now, the more innovative stuff is coming out of Europe. How that plays out, that’s not to say there’s nobody in America. I mean, obviously there are.
Corliss: There’s more happening now. We’re seeing more and more of our contemporaries getting into the large exhibitions, the large shows with very wonderful work. It’s very satisfying to see that, but it’s been a slow growth, mainly because this particular medium was introduced as something crafty and not something to really be explored as an art form. That came from within when polymer clay was first manufactured from a very small group of people who saw the potential of it. They set the foundation of pursuing polymer clay as an art form. It’s taken a while to grow, but it is starting to get a little bit sweet now.
John: And that’s not really different from other mediums. Look at it: it’s just a medium. If you look at the introduction of acrylic paints into the painting world, it took 75 years for those to eclipse other things. Polymers are on that path.
Corliss: They were first invented, I think, in the 70s and 80s as a—
John: Well, they were invented of course.
Corliss: Yes, that is absolutely correct, but as an art supply. They were made in the 1980s. That’s when they started being discovered.
John: Do you know how polymer clay was invented? Do you know the story?
Sharon: No.
John: It was invented by the Nazis.
Sharon: Was it? For what?
John: During World War II, for the leadup to World War II, it was an industrial material that was invented as a substitute for hard-to-find steel and things like that. It was used in manufacturing leading up to the war. It’s an incredibly versatile and really durable product, and it’s very plastic. It can be used for a lot of different things. So consequently, it was sitting on the shelf for many years, many decades, until around the 1980s when somebody somewhere discovered this stuff and said, “Hey, look at this. We can throw some color into it and do all sorts of crazy, artistic stuff with it.” That’s where it took off.
Corliss: That was the start of Premo, and now you have countless brands of polymer clay that are being manufactured. Just about every country on earth has its own brand of polymer clay, including Russia and Japan. Polymer clay is very big in Japan.
Sharon: That’s interesting.
John: Including us. We have it as well.
Sharon: You are early adopters, then. It sounds like very early adopters.
Corliss: Back in that particular time, the internet was just getting started. There wasn’t a big outlet like there is today with social media for polymer clay enthusiasts or groups or fellow artists to get together. I learned everything online. There were one or two websites that acted as portals with links to different tutorials and other web pages with information about products, manufacturers’ pages, that sort of thing. I learned polymer clay online.
Sharon: Wow, online.
John: There were no instructions.
Corliss: No, there was nothing.
Sharon: Wow! I give you a lot of credit, the stick-to-itiveness and determination to say, “I’m going to learn this.” Polymer clay, I took a class decades ago where they used some—is it baked?
Corliss: Yes, we prefer to call it cured.
Sharon: Cured, O.K.
Corliss: And some of the terminology that’s been developed recently is to give a little more sophistication to the product so it isn’t so crafty. So yes, it’s cured. Most of it is cured around 275º Fahrenheit. There are brands that are cured a little bit higher and maybe slightly lower, but a lot of the brands are interchangeable, intermixable. You can have polymer clay look like a gemstone. You can have it look like old, weathered wood. It’s very adaptable. It’s a perfect mimic. It supplants the use of other materials in different jewelry compositions. It’s a very interesting material to work with.
Sharon: It sounds like it.
Corliss: You can paint it. You can rough it up. You can use alcohol on it, just about anything.
Sharon: Recently you mentioned competition. You enter your work into competitions—I call them competitions. I don’t know what you call them, where they give an award for best—
John: Yeah, exhibitions. That’s something we do. It’s part of the promotion of your work. It’s about getting your name and your work out there in front of as large an audience as possible. It’s one way to approach it. We’ve used that in a lot of cases, and these things are building blocks to how you build a sustainable practice. Being in an exhibition—for example, we’ve been in the Beijing Biennial for three years running. We’ve won numerous prizes for that, and we’re representing the United States. We’re one of six artists that have been chosen to represent the U.S. and one of the only clay artists outside the U.K. That’ll pick up a lot of opportunities for us and allow us to make connections in China, particularly within the arts community in China. Just that one event has caromed off into, I don’t how many years now it’s been playing out, and it has continued to provide opportunities for us to do different things. So, yeah, they can be very, very useful, but you have to also recognize that the opportunities are there only if you recognize them and then take action.
Sharon: Would you recommend it to people in earlier stages of their careers, just for validation, to be able to say, “I won this”? Or would you say don’t do it until you’re ready? What’s your advice?
John: I don’t think we advocate one way or another. All I can speak to is this is what works for us. Results can vary. It depends on how you approach it. We had a discussion about this in one of the arts groups recently, and I was surprised that one of themes that emerged out of that was a lot of artists’ discomfort with competition. If that’s the case, then that’s probably not going to be good advice for you. When you do exhibitions and competitions, you’d better have a thick skin because you need to be able to say, “It’s not personal; they didn’t like my jewelry.”
Corliss: I think one area where we have been a bit instrumental is with younger people who want to enter that first competition for the first time. It’s more of an instructional thing. The technology no longer does slides; you do images. It’s little things like making sure your images all have pretty much the same backdrop, that they’re easy for the jury to look at. Out of the 12 or 15 things that we made, we pick the five or three strongest that we feel would be looked at in front of the jury. When you fill out your questionnaire, if it’s anything you have to hand write, please print legibly. It’s surprising how careless people can be. Just things like that. Don’t be disappointed if you don’t get in. You go through the experience of having a binder three inches thick of, “Thank you very much, but no thank you,” before someone comes in saying, “Congratulations.” Then that new little binder starts growing and growing and growing. It’s more of a basic instruction, hand-holding, a little bit of counseling and, “Here, go on your way. Just give it a try.”
John: For a long time, we confronted ourselves with that kind of thing. We have what we call the “wall of shame.” We post all our rejection letters and say, “O.K., we really suck. Look at this is a massive array of rejection letters.” But I think most professional artists that do exhibitions and things will tell you it’s a numbers game. You just keep submitting and eventually you’ll get into some, and you won’t get into others; that’s all there is to it.
Sharon: Yeah, I can see how thick skin comes in handy.
Corliss: I was just going to say I run to the bathroom and cry.
Sharon: No, but you have to have thick skin to do what you do in terms of putting your work out there. You see people looking at it. They walk to the next table. They walk to the next booth. I was talking to a jeweler about this the other day. It’s challenging right there.
Corliss: I go back again to the early days of the apprenticeship. Speaking for myself, I had some hard masters. I remember one class—I will never forget this guy, Salvatore Solomon. He was a fabulous artist, a very good, well-respected artist, and I’m in class and he comes around. He didn’t say a word, just took the piece I was working on, ripped it up. He said, “Start over.” Oh no, that didn’t sit well with me, but that was his technique. He was very hard on his students, but he was teaching you a number of things. One, thick skin. Two, perseverance. The experience I came out of that with has benefitted me for the rest of my life. Now, I understand what he was trying to do.
Sharon: That would be hard thing to go through. John and Corliss, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today. I give you a lot of credit for everything you’ve built, not just the jewelry, but everything around it. Thank you so much for taking the time.
John: Sharon, thank you very much for the opportunity and for taking the time to do this. It’s been a real honor and a pleasure.
Corliss: Yes, it’s been nice. Thank you so much.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About John Rose and Corliss Rose
2Roses is a collaboration of t Corliss Rose and John Lemieux Rose.
The studio, located in Southern California, is focused on producing one-of-a-kind and limited-edition adornment and objects d’art, and is well known for its use of a wide range of highly unorthodox materials.
The studio output is eclectic by design and often blended with an irreverent sense of humor. 2Roses designs are sold in 42 countries worldwide and are exhibited in major art institutions in the US, Europe, and China.
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
For John and Corliss Rose, business and artistic expression don’t have to be in conflict. Entering the art world through apprenticeships, they learned early on that with a little business sense, they didn’t need to be starving artists. Now as the collaborators behind the design studio 2Roses (one of several creative businesses they share), John and Corliss produce one-of-a-kind art jewelry made of polymer clay, computer chips, and other odd material. They joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about their efforts to get business classes included in art school curriculum; why polymer clay jewelry has grown in popularity; and how they balance business with their artistic vision. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today my guests are designers John and Corliss Rose of the eclectic design firm 2Roses, located in Southern California. They sell worldwide. 2Roses is an award-winning design firm recognized for their use of unusual materials. Today we’ll hear more about their jewelry journey. Corliss and John, welcome to the program.
John: Thank you. It’s a delight to be here. Thank you very much.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you designers first? How did that work?
John: Actually, we both started rather early in life. Corliss started as an apprentice in her father’s floral store when she was 10, and I was apprenticed into design and graphic arts at age 12. We both came up in the old-school apprentice system and were working professionally by our early teen. It wasn’t until later, in our late teens, that we both started professional or, I should say, a traditional academic trend. So, we’ve always been in the arts, both of us, very early.
Sharon: Were you both attracted to jewelry early as part of this? Where did that come in?
Corliss: We met at art school, and our backgrounds and our career focus on developing a creative career were almost identical, so we hit it off right from the get-go. For the first 10 years of our relationship, we focused on our own individual creative paths, but we kept intersecting with each other. Eventually we made the decision to work together full time collaboratively for a creative endeavor. Jewelry, at that moment in time, was the highlight of where we wanted to focus our energies.
Sharon: Is that when you met, when you were both part of the apprenticeship, or when you were in college? Where did you meet?
Corliss: We met in art school in Chicago.
John: Prior to that, we had quite a bit of time to develop different practices and careers. So, we met midway, I suppose, in our journey.
Sharon: When you say you were apprenticed, was the idea that you would learn how to be a designer, how to be a florist, and that’s what you were going to do?
Corliss: At that time, I was being groomed to take over my father’s business. I learned not only the design aspect, but at a very early age, I learned cost accounting. I was learning the business aspect of it. I was pretty much indoctrinated from the very beginning that you’re going to be an artist, but you’re not going to be a starving artist. You need to make a profit out of this so you can flourish. Later on in my career, I had one gallery owner tell me that the work was wonderful, but price it this way because it’s one thing to make your bread; it’s another thing to put butter on it. So, it was something that I had gotten all along.
Sharon: Wow! Most people don’t get that so early, so that’s great.
John: All of the apprenticeships I did, it was all about how this is a business first, and we do creative things like manufacturing a product. So by the time we hit formal arts school, when we first met, we very quickly realized that we had a mutual experience of understanding of the art world and our career path. That’s what was a very strong attraction; that we both looked at this as a business career. This isn’t about abstract ideas of, “Let’s be creative,” and all the mythologies that artists are inculcated with. We didn’t seem to have that kind of thinking.
Sharon: Were you ahead of your peers in that respect? Were you ahead of your peers because you recognized the business aspect?
John: Oh my god, yes. Yeah, it was really like that. By the time we hit college, most of our peers were just starting out. They were just starting to learn their career paths and trying to figure out what they were doing. We already had several businesses going. For us, the academic training was more of a cherry on the cake and polishing skills. By that time, we were working professionals and had been for quite some time.
Sharon: Wow! Tell us about the jewelry you make. We’ll have pictures when we post the podcast, but it’s so unusual.
Corliss: We’ve always been driven by exploration and experimentation with what we call odd media. This is what drew us to art jewelry in the early days. It was like the wild west. Anything went, and we just threw out all the rules of traditional jewelry. Fashion and adornment were being challenged at that time. It was almost like a golden age, where there was a lot of free-flowing ideas, a lot of collaboration with John and me, and a lot of fluid dialogue creatively between the both of us.
John: You asked about jewelry, and one of the things is we didn’t start out as jewelers. Both of us came to it through a lot of other mediums. Myself, I started out as a painter, illustrator, furniture maker, gem cutter, sign maker, designer of one thing or another, machinery. Corliss went through all sorts of other endeavors herself.
Corliss: It was basically when we had been together for 10 years, plus doing all of these interesting things, that we made the decision, “Jewelry would be a great direction to go into.” And just to pull the curtain back a little bit and give a peak, I think one of the nicest things that happened to me at that time was that as an anniversary gift, I received lessons for metalsmithing. I learned how to solder, and that was the beginning of it. What I learned, I taught John. We experimented with a lot of different processes and a lot of different materials, and it just started to take off from there.
Sharon: When you say metalsmithing, I would think you would go in the traditional direction, whereas you took the metalsmithing and combined it with polymer clay, it seems, which people don’t do. I’m looking at what your website has, and that’s unusual. How did you reverse course in a sense?
Corliss: We were very much interested in color. At that time, we were following the traditional path of experimenting with color and its relationship to metals: patinas,P Prismacolor pencils, enamels and things like that. Polymer clay was such a versatile material. It could mimic just about anything. At the time, the product was being developed in Europe, where it was originally manufactured, and there was a small group of people using the product and doing some pretty innovative things with it. I latched onto that train very, very quickly and took myself through the learning curve of how to work with it, and I got involved with that particular community for quite a while to absorb everything I could, like a big, old sponge. To this day, it plays a very vital role in a lot of work we do. Because we have been metalsmiths and I teach, I have been able to actually teach the incorporation of some of the simpler metalsmithing techniques with polymer to people who have only worked with polymer and opened up that door to them. It’s been very rewarding in that respect.
John: You made a good observation about that crossover because as Corliss mentions, it’s really a two-way street. What we recognized after a while is that introducing polymer clay to the metal world was one side of the sword, and then it was basically introducing metals into the polymer world. Corliss has developed a whole range of courses, workshops, if you will, going in both directions, and that’s become a business unto itself.
Sharon: You seem very entrepreneurial. You seem to go on and on.
Corliss: As John would say, there are many paths to the artist’s income.
John: Yeah, entrepreneurialism is really baked into the DNA. I have to go back to the apprenticeships that we both did that gave us a foundation in—I always express it as art as a business and business as an art.
Corliss: It was a work ethic, too.
John: Yeah. So, we tend to always look at what the business opportunities are, how to make money doing this. That’s always an issue for anybody in the arts, and that’s also part of what we have advocated for for the last 40 years. I have worked with the California University system for decades trying to introduce a business curriculum into the arts, and it’s taken 40 years to actually get that message across. It’s only been in the last 10 years that we’ve started getting any kind of acceptance. We’ve developed many programs for various universities to teach the business side of art, and it’s been an obstacle course to get that through. It runs counter—or at least it used to run much more counter to the academic approach to teaching arts, which focuses more on technique than actually earning a living.
Corliss: I’ve had quite a few experiences with individuals who were poised for graduation in the next six months or so. We would have conversations about, “I don’t know what I’m going to do next. I’m going to graduate, but I don’t know how to start a business. I was never taught how to make this a practice.” That’s where everything started. It started by recognizing that there is a need for it within the education system. It led to developing more and more sophisticated ways of instructing people and getting them a little more prepared for what comes after graduation.
John: The thing we found, though, is that this is a uniquely American perspective. We’ve developed programs for Canada, for Mexico, South America, and they embraced them. To them it’s a no-brainer. It’s only America where we’ve encountered any resistance to it.
Sharon: Interesting. Why do you think that is?
John: I think a lot of it is the mythology of art. I want to be specific about this. We are focusing on metals programs and jewelry design programs for this kind of thing. When I was involved in SNAG, we got into this quite in-depth. One of the biggest impediments is that the instructor basically had never operated a business himself, so to them, they were being asked to teach something they had no experience in. Basically, they got their master’s degree, and they went from being students to teachers. That’s it. The idea that there was another world out there, they would say, “Yeah, that’s great. That would be wonderful, but that’s not something I have any experience with.”
Sharon: That’s interesting, the idea that art should be pure and sell itself.
John: That’s one of the mythologies, so Puritan. It’s your labor, I guess. One of the things that occurs to me: many people in the arts define themselves by what they do with their hands, and we have never done that. We conceive the opportunities of who we are by what we do with our minds and how we harness our creativity and create opportunities for ourselves to express that creativity. Jewelry is just one of those things. We have a long history in developing businesses, which goes back to the apprenticeships. From our perspective, it’s all creative endeavor.
Corliss: I was a pastry chef.
Sharon: Wow!
John: A television pastry chef, no less
Corliss: Yes.
John: And she basically made formulations for a lot of very famous restaurants and product lines that you would know of.
Corliss: Making the croissants for Marie Callender’s. Looked up the recipe for that.
Sharon: Wow!
John: That’s Marie right there.
Sharon: How did all this meld into jewelry? I know you through Art Jewelry Forum. I know you do art jewelry, but how did everything you’re talking about meld, at one point, into art jewelry? I know you do a lot of other different things, but in terms of the product, let’s say.
John: We were both active artists in various spheres. One of the things we were doing a lot was running mining and prospecting operations. We were accumulating massive amounts of gem material, and it came to the point where we had to make a decision of what the hell we were going to do with all this stuff. That’s when we came upon jewelry. We could either sell the material wholesale, which we were doing, but really the profitability in jewelry is that we had to finish the faceted stone and polish the rough material. You get the material by the pound, but you sell it by the carat.
Corliss: It was lapidary skills that was the predecessor to this. We were making cabochons. John was faceting and we were also carving. We were carving a lot of natural materials, like bone and wood. The jewelry morphed from that, and it started selling. I was actually schlepping things in a big case, and we found that our work was being very well received. It grew and built from that. Soon enough, we were incorporating precious metal into our pieces.
John: We started doing more of what I would call conventional jewelry, and we had quite a success doing that. Early on, we got contracts with Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom and some larger chains, and very quickly we found out that doing that kind of work is not what we wanted to do.
Corliss: Yes, multiples.
John: Like doing 5,000 of something. You can make money, but the toll that takes on your body—I know a lot of people that do that, and all of them have wrist problems. It leads to health problems. So, that kind of jewelry was when we were getting started and taking off.
When we discovered art jewelry, we lost our minds. It was the wild west. It was all of our art training, all of the things we thought of ourselves as, what we wanted to do in terms of unfettered creativity and experimentation, pushing the boundaries and the edge. That’s what was happening in art jewelry. So, we said, “Yeah, that’s where we want to go. If we’re going to do jewelry, that’s the kind of stuff we’re going to do.” That’s basically how we backed into this world.
Corliss: That’s how it opened us up to a lot of different materials. We were in the frame of mind of purposely going out and looking for materials in a lot of different places, everything from upcycling to computer boards and things of that sort, a whole variety of things. We had friends who would tease us and bring us little offerings we could use in the studio and comment, “You two can make something out of anything.” We took that as a wonderful compliment and put ourselves in a position to receive a lot of very interesting material we could use.
John: Well, we had good circumstances and still do because of all these other businesses we were involved with. We had connections within the military, NASA, foreign governments, lights and heavy manufacturing, the medical industry. We were getting access to this insane array of stuff and materials. I’ve got stuff from someone’s space capsule, a jet fighter, fossils of every kind, medical devices you wouldn’t normally get your hands on. All of this became fodder for “Let’s make jewelry out of it.” One example: I have what we call the world’s most expensive pair of earrings. One of my contacts ran a medical manufacturing business, and they spent something like $35 million developing these little—
Corliss: Chips.
John: Yeah, for CAT scanners, and they failed. They didn’t work as intended. So we stocked six of these prototypes, which literally cost $35 million, and they were like, “Well, we can’t use them. Here, make some jewelry out of them,” which we did. We made earrings out of them, and I love that particular piece. It has a story because they went from being extravagantly expensive to being completely worthless, and now they’re a pair of earrings. Somebody put some sort of value on it, I guess.
Sharon: It sounds like people who know you just ship you boxes and bones and screws and whatever they have.
John: We receive regular offerings from friends, which is a delight; it really is. Over the years, we’ve developed a solid foundation of collectors. We get a steady stream of commissions, and it’s very typical to hear, “I have this thing. Can it be—” I mean, we’ve gotten everything from antiquities—
Corliss: We have Roman coins and special pottery shards.
John: And crazy stuff that people say. “Here, use this as the starting point and make me something.” We actually got a guy’s pacemaker one time. “I’ve had this inside of me for the last six years, and now I’m going to wear it on the outside.”
Sharon: That’s an interesting idea.
John: It was quite an interesting piece.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ute Decker
Ute Decker, born 1969, Germany, lives and works in London, UK. The jewels of Ute Decker are described as “a powerful statement” that “sets a shining ethical example” (Financial Times). The Economist 1843 compares her “avant-garde sculptural pieces” to “swirling sculptures” while Christie’s simply calls them “wearable works of art”.
Ute’s pieces are exhibited internationally and have won prestigious awards including Gold Awards from The Goldsmiths’ Craft and Design Council, UK. Public collections include the Victoria & Albert Museum, UK; the Crafts Council, UK; the Goldsmiths’ Company, UK; the Spencer Museum, USA; Musée Barbier-Mueller, Switzerland; and the Swiss National Museum.
As a political economist-turned-journalist-turned-artist jeweler, Ute Decker is a pioneer of the international ethical jewelery movement. She works predominately in recycled silver and was one of the first worldwide to work in Fairtrade Gold.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When it comes to ethical jewelry, artist-jeweler Ute Decker is the real deal. She was one of the first people to use fair-trade gold when it became available in the U.K., and she has spent her career advocating for the use of truly ethically sourced materials in the jewelry industry. Above all, she’s proven that ethical can be beautiful: her sculptural works have won several awards and are in the collection of museums worldwide. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what fair trade means; how she approaches the creative process; and what makes an artist-jeweler. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today my guest is Ute Decker, talking with us from London. Ute is an artist-jeweler who’s known for her innovative method of sculpting, bending and twisting metal into three-dimensional, wearable sculptures. She works in fair-trade gold and recycled silver and is considered a pioneer in the international ethical jewelry movement. Welcome back.
So how did all of this lead you into recycled material? Was that something you decided you wanted to do, and that was it? How did it happen?
Ute: As we talked about at the beginning, as a teenager, I wanted to change the world. I was always quite environmentally mindful. Then studying political economics, working as a journalist, you think that is very far removed from being a creative, and at the time it certainly felt like a big break, but in hindsight I think it was an important apprenticeship I needed to take to become the jeweler I am today. As in political economics, you don’t just look at the piece and take it as art for art’s sake or design for design’s sake. You want to know the meaning, the context, the economic, the social, the political, the gender.
All those different histories and intersectionalities, that’s my training to look at those. As a journalist, your training is to ask questions, so when I started out making jewelry, I did ask questions. Like many people, I’ve seen the film “Blood Diamonds,” and I thought, “Oh well, thank god I don’t work with diamonds. I work with metals.” Then I started to look into gold, and the story is very similar to “Blood Diamonds” with gold. Of course, my reaction was, “I can’t possibly work with this kind of material. I can’t be part of the status quo. I’d have blood on my hands. It’s discretionary. It's something I’m making. There’s absolutely no need for those horrible stories.” So, I researched quite a bit and asked many questions about ethics.
In 2009, when I started, there was no information out there whatsoever. In fact, I was met with a lot of hostility. Once you start asking about the ethics of jewelry, you’re tainting the story because jewelry is sold as that beautiful, luxurious love, but it’s such a tainted story. So, in the jewelry industry, those questions were certainly not welcome. I was met with either belittlement, “Don’t you worry. Everything is fine,” or outright hostility. I think as a journalist that meant, O.K., if people avoid your questions, that means you’re asking the right questions.
I searched high and low and found a like-minded person who’s been very active in that field. I was one of the very first to work with fair-trade gold when it was launched in the U.K. It was together with Fair Trade and Fair Mined Gold. Those two organizations have now separated. I know in America more jewelers work with Fair Mined; in Europe, more work with Fair Trade, but it’s very similar standards. The main thing is it’s fully traceable. We know exactly where it comes from. I know from which mine in the highlands of Peru my gold is coming from. I know it’s not smuggled out from the Congo, supporting atrocities there. I know it’s not smuggled out of Russia or somewhere else. It’s fully traceable, every single gram. I’m registered with the Fair Trade Foundation in the U.K. The mine is registered as well as the importer, and the refiner is registered. We all have a number and we all declare how much we buy, and it’s fully traceable. As a smaller maker, I’m audited every two to three years. I have to be able to show every single invoice; every single gram, I have to account for. It’s being checked. It is quite bureaucratic, but that is the guarantee. The whole fair-trade ethos is trade not aid. It is about paying a fair price rather than the small-scale miner selling to middlemen, middlemen exploitation. It’s very much about dignity: avoiding child labor, more gender equality, environmental standards of not burning down the Amazon. Fair-trade gold and fair-mined gold is a little more expensive, but in the great scheme of things, it is worth it.
It’s also quite interesting that we started with just 20 jewelers. In 2009, we launched jewelry. All the other jewelers were also very small, individual jewelers. The entire industry said, “Traceability is not possible. Our gold is clean.” Well, where does it come from? “It’s clean.” But where? Traceability is impossible, we were told by the industry. Gold comes from all over the world, it’s then refined mostly in hubs like Switzerland or Dubai. The gold from all over the world comes through those hubs and then is distributed again all over the world. Gold has no identity, and they said it is absolutely impossible to have traceability. So, as 20 tiny, little jewelers, and unimportant jewelers in the great scheme of things, we gave the proof of concept that it was something that is possible. The entire industry no longer could deny that this was a possibility. Sometimes you get so disheartened thinking, “Whatever I do as an individual, what difference could it possibly make? It couldn’t be more than a drop in the ocean.” But the ocean is nothing but an accumulation of drops. We can change the waves. We can change. So, we have more power than we think we do.
Sharon: First, let me ask you: What is Fair Trade and Fair Mined? What is fair-trade gold?
Ute: I’ll answer both of them together because they started out together. It was called Fair Trade and Fair Mined gold. Later those two organizations separated, but they wrote the standards together, so they’re still very similar. When I say Fair Trade, you could almost consider it Fair Mined as well. They’re almost interchangeable. I think I did once read the standard. It’s pages and pages and pages of small print standards of environmental guidelines, of engaging with gender equality. It is about the minimum payments.
Quite often with small-scale miners, it’s not a job you do for fun. Artisanal sounds romantic, but it’s not. It’s a dollar-a-day, often horrible job, sometimes bonded labor, sometimes involving an awful lot of child labor. All of that is why the Fair Trade Foundation or Fair Mined works with the mine for a long time to come up to standard with certain environmental standards. They have to form a cooperative. We pay a premium that is then invested into community development. Women have a voice. Child labor is not allowed. Those mines are audited, and for their efforts they receive more money. It’s really enabling those miners to have more dignity, to live in a cleaner environment, to help protect the environment for all of us, and hopefully earn enough money for those children not to go down the shaft, but to go to school.
The question is, “Well, let’s just not use any gold at all,” which I also heartily agree with. But as we said, these miners almost subsist on a dollar a day, quite a few of those small-scale miners around the world. 100 million depend on that income, and it’s a poverty-stricken income. For us in the West to say, “Well, it would better if you didn’t do that,” is not going to work. It is helping those communities to work more environmentally friendly but also to earn more money to eventually get out of mining. It is a slower process. It’s not that we have all the answers. It’s a process of empowerment.
Sharon: How about the recycled silver you use? Do you only use recycled silver? How did Fair Mined lead you into only working with recycled silver?
Ute: Fair Trade and Fair Mines initially were only gold mines. When you mine gold, in the ore there is some silver, but it’s a much smaller percentage. So, there was availability of fair-trade gold, but very, very little of fair-trade silver. Of course, it’s much cheaper to work with silver, so there would be a much higher demand. I would occasionally get a few grams of silver. I think now the availability of fair-mined silver is a little bit better. In fact, I’ve been told that it’s quite good now, so I need to look into that again. It is a continuous journey, but at the time and until recently, there was not just enough availability of fair-trade silver. Otherwise, I would prefer to work in fair-trade silver.
Recycled silver—now we call it recycled because we’re all so green; we used to call it scrapping. So, we’ve always done that. We’ve never thrown away precious metals. For me, it is not necessarily an ethical proposition to work in recycled. It is a little bit better than nothing, but I wouldn’t say I’m working ethical because I’m using recycled materials. I think that’s almost the bare minimum we should be using.
But then we come back to your earlier questions about art jewelry, artist jewelry, ethical jewelry. I don’t like the term ethical at all, ethical jewelry. It seems to be a standard term now. Sustainable jewelry, it definitely isn’t sustainable. We’re using finite resources. Responsible is probably a better term. I quite like mindful, but then mindful is so occupied with other things, so you can’t use that term. So, I use ethical jewelry as a term because I think we all know what we mean by that, but I don’t particularly like the term.
Sharon: Do your clients care? When you’re having a showing or people call about your jewelry and you mention it, does it make a difference to them how you’re working, whatever you want to call it? Do they care?
Ute: Not as much as I would have thought. Not as much as I do. It is not what people call a unique selling point; it’s not. If you do make small wedding bands, I think young couples, especially younger people, are much more engaged in that sustainable question. For them it’s much more important. People find their way first and foremost because there is something that speaks to you about the forms I make. It’s only afterwards, when they look closer and they see the materials I use. I think it is a certain appreciation of individually made, sculpted pieces that are unique even when I make a series, because they’re all hand sculpted. I will never be able to make the same piece again, so even with a series, pieces are unique.
If that somebody goes to the trouble and cares to choose the best material possible, I think that is appreciated, but nobody comes to me to buy a ring because it’s made in fair trade. I would love to stop talking about this subject because I would love it to be normal, nothing special anymore, but after being met with so much hostility all those years ago in 2011, if you look at any website of jewelers now—especially high street—they all proclaim to have responsible sourcing, conflict-free diamonds. As a consumer, if you look, you think, “Oh, thank god all of it has been sorted.” I think our biggest problem now—because there are more and more responsible and ethical options available—is greenwash.
Sharon: Greenwash, did you say?
Ute: Yeah, greenwash. Greenwash means painting the status quo green, changing nothing, just making it sound green. Unless you have fully traceable, unless you know 100% where your materials come from, you can’t make those claims. For me, using recycled is not necessarily ethical because there are huge issues with recycled. I’m always asked about that. I put a whole section on my website with several articles: “Is recycled or fair mined better?” because a lot of jewelers want to do the best. Rather than answering that question each time, I put quite a few articles on my website.
Sharon: May I ask you this about your jewelry, about something you said before? It’s always seemed to me that if you’re doing a show, you’re putting your work out there for people to judge. “Yes, I want a ring like that,” or “No, it doesn’t appeal to me,” and they move onto the next thing. It must take thick skin.
Ute: Interesting question. You would think so. Before I outed myself, I made jewelry for myself for nearly 20 years. I made what I wanted to wear, what I enjoyed. For me, it was totally unimportant if anybody else liked it.
Sharon: Are the pieces you make for the shows pieces you like or pieces you want to make?
Ute: When I started out only making jewelry for myself, I didn’t show it to anybody. I made it for myself. It was out of interest and the creative joy of it. I wore the pieces, and it didn’t matter whether somebody liked it. Then I accidentally showed my work for the first time, and I thought, “Who else is going to like this? I love it and some of my friends do, but maybe they’re just being nice.” I did win a prize and things happened. It’s quite amazing, to my greatest surprise, that several of my pieces are now in several museums including the V&A. I would have never, ever thought so. I think as any creative, to be authentic, you can’t try to please everybody. You don’t want to please everybody. It’s wonderful that there are several people out there in the world who think that what I do speaks to them, but I’m quite happy for many people to just walk past.
Sharon: It doesn’t matter.
Ute: Yes, it doesn’t matter. There are some lovely older ladies who come. They giggle and say, “Oh, you couldn’t do the gardening with that one.” I love that comment. It’s still engaging, and they’re interested in the shapes. It’s so obvious it’s not for them, but they still engage in a way. Jewelry, for me, is a way of making connections. You can’t connect with absolutely everybody, but when it makes those connections, it's beautiful. So no, I don’t have thick skin, because I guess enough sparkling eyes gives me joy as well. I see artwork that others are enthused about, and it doesn’t speak to me. Maybe a few years later it does. So no, I’m not trying to please anybody. It’s a joy that there are many people I can share the work with.
Sharon: Your work is unusual, but if your work is not for gardening, as these women say, who is it for? Is it for younger people? Is it for people who appreciate the art and when they go garden, they’ll put it aside? Who is it for?
Ute: Every piece I make is a piece I want to wear. Maybe in a way it’s firstly for me, so I can keep making them. I sell my work to support my habit. Mostly the people who are drawn to my work are mature, mostly women, but also men. Mature people who are confident that come in all shapes, sizes, ages, everything, but who feel quite confident wearing a piece like the ring I’m wearing or the beautiful ring you’re wearing.
Jewelry can also be very empowering. You put on a piece, and here I am talking nonstop, but I can be quite shy. Being in a gathering of people, especially for me to go up to somebody, yeah, I dread being in groups of people. When you wear a piece, it allows other people to approach you. It gives that invitation to speak to you. It doesn’t say, “Hey, look what a cool piece I’m wearing.” It says, “Yes, I’m open to have a conversation.” It’s amazing how many doors wearing my jewelry has opened. Then you start a conversation, and it naturally flows. Coming back to the question, it is for confident people, but it’s also for non-confident people like myself. It’s both.
Sharon: I can see how it would be for confident people. I invite everybody to take a look at our website. We’ll have picture. It’s very unusual jewelry. I really appreciate you being here today. Thank you so much.
Ute: Thank you. That time passed very quickly, Sharon. Thank you.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ute Decker
Ute Decker, born 1969, Germany, lives and works in London, UK. The jewels of Ute Decker are described as “a powerful statement” that “sets a shining ethical example” (Financial Times). The Economist 1843 compares her “avant-garde sculptural pieces” to “swirling sculptures” while Christie’s simply calls them “wearable works of art”.
Ute’s pieces are exhibited internationally and have won prestigious awards including Gold Awards from The Goldsmiths’ Craft and Design Council, UK. Public collections include the Victoria & Albert Museum, UK; the Crafts Council, UK; the Goldsmiths’ Company, UK; the Spencer Museum, USA; Musée Barbier-Mueller, Switzerland; and the Swiss National Museum.
As a political economist-turned-journalist-turned-artist jeweler, Ute Decker is a pioneer of the international ethical jewelery movement. She works predominately in recycled silver and was one of the first worldwide to work in Fairtrade Gold.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
When it comes to ethical jewelry, artist-jeweler Ute Decker is the real deal. She was one of the first people to use fair-trade gold when it became available in the U.K., and she has spent her career advocating for the use of truly ethically sourced materials in the jewelry industry. Above all, she’s proven that ethical can be beautiful: her sculptural works have won several awards and are in the collection of museums worldwide. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what fair trade means; how she approaches the creative process; and what makes an artist-jeweler. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today my guest is Ute Decker, talking with us from London. Ute is an artist-jeweler who’s known for an innovative method of sculpting, bending and twisting metal into three-dimensional, wearable sculptures. She works in fair-trade gold and recycled silver and is considered a pioneer in the international ethical jewelry movement. We’ll hear more about her jewelry journey today. Ute, welcome to the program.
Ute: Sharon, thank you very much for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. How did you end up doing what you’re doing?
Ute: Yes, it was rather unplanned. I’m the daughter of winemakers, several generations of winemakers. As a child, I thought that’s what I wanted to be, making wine. So, I grew up in beautiful nature. As I grew up, I was more and more interested in politics, history, philosophy, and I ended up in political economics, because already as a teenager, I wanted to change the world. I thought it was best to have some understanding of how things work. During university, I did a six-month internship at the United Nations. It was also a real eye opener on how slow progress is made and lobbying, so I was quite disheartened after that internship. Then I worked as a journalist for a while, doing news, current affairs. I probably failed in that because I’m not a good storyteller. Words are not my medium.
I was a little bit lost for a while as to what I really wanted to do. When I grew up, in primary and secondary school, art classes were all about figurative drawing and making. I admired it in other people when they can do it, but that’s not my interest, and certainly I can’t draw a stickperson to save my life. So, I left school thinking I’m actually not very creative or artistic because I failed in what was required. It was probably not until my mid-30s or maybe late 20s when friends said when I made something, “Oh, that’s interesting.” For years I was a closet creator. I went to evening classes and all kinds of workshops, whether it’s large-scale sculptures, textiles—I love ceramics—several photography workshops. It really was doing workshops that I kept going back.
Nearly for 20 years before offering myself as a jeweler, friends said, “You should do something with your jewelry,” and I said, “Absolutely not.” I loved it so much. There’s no way I would like to make it something professional, to have that kind of pressure. I enjoyed it far too much, but then I was invited to take part in a group show. I thought, “It’s fine; I’ll add a few pieces and just see.” That was quite amazing. That was in 2009. I won a prize and tons of press, and a couple of major collectors bought my pieces. I thought, “Wow, that’s nice! I’ll maybe do that one more time.” Soon afterwards, I got a proper, full-time studio. The rest is history, really.
Sharon: I don’t know if it’s still in progress or you just finished up a solo exhibition at the Elisabetta Cipriani Gallery. Tell us about that. Did you feel it was fulfilling, the adulation?
Ute: Elisabetta Cipriani Gallery is absolutely wonderful. We met, I think, in 2013 at Design Basel where they gave me a spotlight showcase, and we’ve been working together ever since. As you know—you’ve done an interview with Elisabetta—Elisabetta primarily represents jewelry by artists. Probably the best known is Rebecca Horn. She does collaborations with fine artists, and I was the first one that was more of an art jeweler than a fine artist making jewelry. Now she works with a few more art jewelers. Elisabetta is Italian and it’s always “bella.” What a joy to work with somebody who has a really keen eye, interesting observations, does some wonderful projects, is incredibly supportive and is just a joy to be with.
For that exhibition, it’s been in discussion for years. I maybe procrastinated a bit because it feels like—it’s the same with how I never wanted to show my jewelry. It feels like you’re offering it for others to judge. For me, it’s a private thing in a way; it’s my way of expressing. A solo show is similar. Here is me at this time. I didn’t quite like the idea, but of course it’s crazy to postpone an offer of a solo show. Then I finally said to Elisabetta, “Look, I will never be ready. Let’s just set a date.” So, we did, and then Covid happened, so it was delayed even more. But I created a new body of work for that show called “Creating Waves.” If you have a chance to see it on Elisabetta’s or my website—
Sharon: Which we’ll list afterwards with show images.
Ute: Yeah. I’ve also worked with some system of loops because, for me, jewelry is about making connections. It’s making personal connections, but it’s making broader connections. Coming from that political/economic background in journalism, it’s connections of materiality; it’s connections where the material comes from. For me, the interlinking loops—and quite a few of those loops are open, so you can change which connections you would like to make and configure the piece. That’s another strand that I developed for the solo show, yeah.
Sharon: I can see. We’ll hopefully have a picture of it posted with the podcast. You’re wearing one of your rings. Were the loops something you saw in front of you when the metal is flat? Was that something that came to you when you were playing around with it? How did that happen?
Ute: For me, making is very much an exploration. I might have certain ideas when I go into the studio and sit, but I’m very fascinated by Japanese Zen philosophy. That philosophy talks a lot about emptiness as well as empty mind. We in the West see emptiness as a void of something we absolutely, quickly need to fill, as something missing, while in that philosophy, emptiness is the vast openness for potential. For me, I don’t want to come to the studio with a fixed idea of what I’d like to do, because then I’ve already determined it as if I know. I don’t need to explore anymore if I feel I know. So, I always kind of know what I’d like to do, but then I usually do something completely different. It’s that almost empty mind of exploring metal, shapes.
Quite often it’s the sculptural form that I explore. As I said, I can’t draw, so I make maquettes in garden wire or in brass and explore the shape for its sculptural form. It’s quite often only later that I decide for which part of the body that sculpture form would work best. Then it’s weeks of tweaking the brass maquettes. I’m quite often seen wearing the maquettes, because when you create such large sculptural forms, they really need to balance and sit well on the body. It’s important that I work that out while wearing them, how they engage with the body. It’s only then, when I’m happy, I make the final pieces. It’s only then, once the pieces are in front of me, that there’s another thought process and those pieces remind me of something, remind me of the loops, how they’re interconnected, how we can change our connections, other waves.
I think if you gave me a commission to make a piece about waves, I would fail. It is rather I make a piece, and then it reminds me of waves when I see them. It’s kind of arresting time of that kind of movement. I’m very happy with some of the pieces that have become quite special to me. Maybe if we can add a particular armpiece for your listeners to see, it is very much a large wave, but when you put the several maquettes next to each other and you don’t have any idea of scale, some people who saw the maquettes said, “Oh, that looks like a Richard Serra that you could walk into.” I think that’s also why I give my pieces relatively open titles, because I don’t want to pre-determine people’s associations, just like I don’t want to predetermine what reaction I might have to it. We all come with our own backgrounds, with our own thoughts to a piece, and it’s the same. Any great artwork will elicit different reactions depending on what state of life we’re in and recent experiences. I like to give pieces very open titles for the viewer and wearer to make it their own.
Sharon: So, you say you’re an artist-jeweler. What is the difference between that and an artist alone or a jeweler alone? What is an artist-jeweler to you?
Ute: That is the eternal question, isn’t it? That is the eternal question, and I still don’t know how to answer that. When I’m asked what I do, if we’re face-to-face it’s very easy, because I usually wear one of my pieces. I hold it up and say, “This is what I do,” and then you decide what that means to you. The other times when you say you’re a jeweler, very few people know about the art jewelry world, really surprisingly. So, most people think you’re designing little hearts for the high street shops. I think that’s why an artist-jeweler will then elicit another question where you can go deeper into it, but it’s all just words. This is what I’m doing.
Sharon: No, it is. It’s a very difficult question to answer. I usually ask people what they consider a collector, which also is a very difficult question. When you find the answer, give me a call.
You tried textiles. You tried photography. You tried sculpture. What is it about the kind of jewelry you do; why did it attract you? Why did it stand out?
Ute: I guess jewelry is not called the most intimate of art forms for nothing. I love that you can disappear in your studio and quietly work. I create everything myself with my two hands. I sculpt everything myself. With large-scale sculpture, there’s much more immediacy with jewelry because I can bend the shapes with my own hands. In fact, my jewelry studio has very few tools, has no nasty chemicals. It’s really my hands, a few pliers, a few mallets, mandrels. I like being able to have a spark and immediately translate that into a shape. That’s also why I love ceramics. I think in my next life I’ll try ceramics as well, explore that.
After setting up as a jeweler, I was commissioned to make some large-scale sculptures, and I thought, “That’s amazing. That’s what you wanted to do, of course.” But they’re so large I had to work with a fabricator. It was a fantastic fabricator who had done it for very well-known artists, the YBAs, the Young British Artists, and did a fantastic job. But for me, it felt unfinished. I handed over the maquette. The fabricator did a wonderful job making a large piece, but usually when I finish a piece of jewelry, I then go and tweak it. It sits there for weeks, and I continue working on it. Here, I was handed over something finished. I don’t want something finished. You can’t bend it any more with your hands. So, it was surprisingly unsatisfying to make very large sculptures, but I’ll do table-size sculptures where I can still be fully hands on. That is something I enjoy doing.
Sharon: Do you do that now, make table-size sculptures similar to jewelry that you bend?
Ute: Yeah, quite a few pieces. In fact, that is one of my favorite reactions when I show my work. People say, “Oh, this is a sculpture. I’m sure you can’t wear it,” and then I put it on my hand and the person’s hand, and I say, “But surely you can’t wear that piece,” and it’s wearable. Quite a few pieces look like they only could possibly be sculptures and there’s no way to wear them. That’s what I really enjoy. Many pieces have been purchased purely for the sole purpose of displaying them rather than wearing them. It’s the liminal space between sculpture and wearable sculpture, and again, it’s your choice.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Toni Greenbaum
Toni Greenbaum is a New York-based art historian specializing in twentieth and twenty-first century jewelry and metalwork. She wrote Messengers of Modernism: American Studio Jewelry 1940-1960 (Montréal: Musée des Arts Décoratifs and Flammarion, 1996), Sam Kramer: Jeweler on the Edge (Stuttgart: Arnoldsche Art Publishers, 2019) and “Jewelers in Wonderland,” an essay on Sam Kramer and Karl Fritsch for Jewelry Stories: Highlights from the Collection 1947-2019 (New York: Museum of Arts and Design and Arnoldsche, 2021), along with numerous book chapters, exhibition catalogues, and essays for arts publications. Greenbaum has lectured internationally at institutions such as the Pinakothek der Moderne, Munich; Academy of Arts, Architecture and Design in Prague; Yale University Art Gallery, New Haven; Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian Design Museum and Museum of Arts and Design, New York; Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; and Savannah College of Art and Design Museum of Art, Savannah. She has worked on exhibitions for several museums, including the Victoria and Albert in London, Musée des beaux-arts de Montréal, and Bard Graduate Center Gallery, New York.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Once misunderstood as an illegitimate art form, modernist jewelry has come into its own, now fetching five and six-figure prices at auction. Modernist jewelry likely wouldn’t have come this far without the work of Toni Greenbaum, an art historian, professor and author of “Messengers of Modernism: American Studio Jewelry, 1940 to 1960.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history of modernist jewelry; why it sets the women who wear it apart; and where collectors should start if they want to add modernist pieces to their collections. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today my guest is art historian, professor and author Toni Greenbaum. She is the author of the iconic tome, “Messengers of Modernism: American Studio Jewelry, 1940 to 1960,” which analyzes the output of America’s modernist jewelers. Welcome back.
Do you think that if you had looked up and seen Sam Kramer’s shop, would you have been attracted?
Toni: Oh, my god, I would have been up in a shot. Are you kidding? I would have tumbled up those stairs had I known it was there. I never even knew what it was, but I was always seeking out that aesthetic, that kind of thing. Like I said, my mother would buy handmade jewelry, silver jewelry, and I loved what she bought. I would go to galleries with her. When I say gallery, they were more like shops; they were like shop-galleries, multimedia boutiques, not specifically jewelry, that would carry handmade jewelry. I loved it. Had I seen Sam Kramer’s shop, I would have been up like a shot. The same thing with Art Smith. I would have been down those steps like a shot, but I didn’t know they were there, and I was too busy running after boys and going to the coffee shops in Greenwich Village to look carefully.
Sharon: Out here, I don’t know if you would have had those influences.
Toni: You had a few shops. You’re in the Los Angeles area?
Sharon: Yeah.
Toni: There were a few shops in L.A., not so much in Northern California. There was Nanny’s in San Francisco, which was a craft gallery that carried a lot of jewelers. In Southern California there were a few studio shops, but I don’t know how prominent they were. I don’t know how obvious they were. I don’t think that they were as much on people’s radar as the ones in New York.
Sharon: When you say studio jewelers, was everything one-off, handmade?
Toni: Yes—well, not necessarily one-off. Generally, what these jewelers would do—this is the best generalization—for the larger, more expensive, more involved pieces, they would make one. When they sold it, they’d make another one, and when they sold that, they’d make another one. If the style was popular, they would also have what they would think of as production lines—earrings, cuff links, tie bars that they would replicate, but they were not cast usually. At that time, very little of it was cast. It was hand-wrought, so there were minor differences in each of the examples. But unless we get into the business records of these jewelers, we don’t really know exactly how many they made of each design.
Sharon: Why is it, do you think, that modernist jewelry has been so popular today?
Toni: Oh, that’s a good question. That’s a very good question. I think a lot has to do with Fifty/50 Gallery’s promotion. Fifty/50 was on Broadway at 12th Street, and it was a multimedia gallery that specialized in mid-20th century material. There were three very smart, very savvy, very charismatic owners who truly loved the material like I love it, and when you love something so much, when you have a passion, it’s very easy to make other people love it also. I think a lot of the answer to that question is Fifty/50’s promotion. They were also a very educative gallery. They were smart, and they knew how to give people the information they needed to know they were buying something special. I think it appeals to a certain kind of person.
Blanche Brown was an art historian in the midcentury who was married to Arthur Danto, who was a philosopher who taught art history at Columbia. His wife, Blanche Brown, was also an art historian. She did a lot of writing, and she would talk about the modernist jewelry, which she loved. It was a badge that she and her cohort would wear with pride because it showed them to be aesthetically aware, politically progressive. It made them stand apart from women who were wearing diamonds and precious jewelry just to show how wealthy their husbands were, which was in the 1940s and 1950s, the women who would wear this jewelry. So, for women like Blanche Brown and women through the 1960s, 70s, 80s and even now—well, now it’s different because we have all the contemporary jewelers—but I think it set these women apart. It made them special in a way. It set them apart from the women who were wearing the Cartier and the Van Cleef and Arpels.
You dress for your peers. You dress to make your peers admire you, if not be envious. Within the Bohemian subculture of the 1950s, within the Beat Generation of the 1950s and through the 1960s and the hippies in the 1970s, it set apart that kind of woman. Remember, also, feminism was starting to become a very important aspect of lifestyle. I think when “The Feminine Mystique” came out around 1963—I would have to check it—women were starting to feel empowered. They wanted to show themselves to be intelligent and secure and powerful, and I think modernist jewelry imparted that message when one wore it. It’s not that different than people who wear the contemporary jewelry we love so much now. Art Jewelry Forum says it’s jewelry that makes you think, and that is what I think a lot of us relate to in that jewelry. It’s jewelry with a real concept behind it.
Sharon: That leads me to the next question. I know the biographies repeat themselves. When I was looking up information about you, they said you’re an expert in modernist and contemporary jewelry. Contemporary can mean anything. Would you agree with the contemporary aspect?
Toni: I don’t view myself as an expert in contemporary. I think I know more than a lot of people about it only because I study it. It’s very hard to keep up because there are so many new jewelers popping up all the time. The name of my course that I teach at Pratt is Theory and Criticism of Contemporary Jewelry. Because of that, I do have to keep up to the day because it’s a required course for the juniors majoring in jewelry studies, and I feel a responsibility to make them aware of what’s happening right at that point I’m teaching it. Things are changing so much in our field, but I don’t view myself as an expert. I just think I know a lot about it. It’s not my field of expertise, and there’s so much. You’ve got German jewelers, and you’ve got Chinese jewelers, and you’ve got Australian and New Zealand jewelers, and you’ve got Swedish jewelers. All over the world. You’ve got Estonia, a little, small country, as these major jewelers. They are each individual disciplines in and of themselves.
Sharon: How is it that you wrote the catalogue that became “Messengers of Modernism”? Were you asked to write the catalogue?
Toni: Yeah, I was hired by David Hanks and Associates, which was and still is the curatorial firm. They’re American, but they work for the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts. At that time, there was a separate Montreal Museum of Decorative Arts, and that’s really where Messengers of Modernism—it came under the Montreal Museum of Decorative Arts. Now, it has been absorbed into the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts. It’s just one building. It was a separate building. Basically I was hired by the museum to write the catalogue.
Sharon: And how did it become a book?
Toni: It is a book.
Sharon: Yes, but how did it become—it was a catalogue.
Toni: It’s a book, but it functions as the catalogue in the next edition.
Sharon: Right, but I was saying that you wrote the catalogue, and then you said it was published by Flammarion in Paris. Did they say, “Oh, let’s take it and make it a book?” How did it transform?
Toni: It was always a book, but it functioned as the catalogue for a particular collection, which is their collection of modernist jewelry. Many exhibitions, even painting exhibitions, when you go to a museum and view a painting exhibition and you buy the accompanying text, it’s the catalogue of the exhibition.
Sharon: Yes, but a lot of those don’t become books per se. That’s why I was wondering, did somebody at the publishers see your catalogue and say, “This would make a great book?” I have never seen the exhibition, but I have the book.
Toni: I think this is a semantic conversation more than anything else. It has become, as I said, the standard text, mostly because nothing else really exists, except I believe Marbeth Schon wrote a book on the modernist jewelers which is more encyclopedic. This book, “Messengers of Modernism,” first of all, it puts the collection in the context of studio craft from the turn of the century up until then, which was then the present. The book was published in 1996. I think what you’re saying is it’s more important than what we think of as a museum catalogue and it’s become a standard text.
Sharon: Yeah.
Toni: It was always conceived as a book about modernist jewelry; it was just focusing on this one collection. What I’m saying is people would say, “Well, why isn’t this one in the book? Why did you leave this one out?” and I said, “Well, I didn’t leave this one out. This is a book about a finite collection that’s in the Montreal Museum of Fine Arts.” If I were writing a book about modernist jewelry, of course I would have included Claire Falkenstein, but she wasn’t in their collection, so it’s not in that book. That was basically what I meant.
Sharon: Is there a volume two that’s going to be coming out with the ones that weren’t in the collection that you think should be in the book?
Toni: That book was published in 1996. We’re already in 2022. People are always asking me, but one never knows.
Sharon: I guess you don’t need an exhibition to write a catalogue.
Toni: No, to write a book, of course you don’t.
Sharon: To write a book. What’s on your radar? What do you think you have next? Is it in the realm of modernism that you would be writing about?
Toni: That’s really what I write about. I lecture about contemporary jewelry to my students and occasionally to the public, but my area of expertise is modernism. There are cardiologists that have a part of their practice in general medicine, but if somebody has a gastrointestinal problem, they’re going to send them to a gastroenterologist. I can deal with the broad strokes, which I do, but unless it’s one specific jeweler that I would write about, I would not attempt a book about contemporary jewelry. I would stick with modernism, what I feel very confident and comfortable with.
Sharon: If somebody who’s passionate about jewelry but not wealthy said they want to start building a modernist collection, where would they start?
Toni: That is another good question. First of all, they would really have to comb the auctions. If they were very serious about collecting important works, I would send them to Mark McDonald, who’s the premier dealer in this material. He was one of the partners of Fifty/50.
Sharon: Right, does he still work in that area? Didn’t they close the store? Yeah, they closed the store.
Toni: Yeah, two of the partners tragically died. Mark had Gansevoort Gallery after. That was on Gansevoort Street in the Meatpacking District here in New York, which was a wonderful gallery also specializing in modernist material, multimedia. Then he had a shop up in Hudson, New York, for many years, right opposite Ornamentum Gallery. That closed, but he still deals privately. He is the most knowledgeable dealer in the period that I know of. If anybody was really serious about starting to collect modernist jewelry, he would be the person I recommend they go to.
Sharon: It sounds like somebody to collaborate with if you’re writing your next book.
Toni: We always collaborate. We’re good friends and we always collaborate.
Sharon: Where do you see the market for modernist jewelry? Do you see it continuing to grow? Is it flat? Is it growing?
Toni: Yes, the best of it will continue to grow. There was an auction right before the pandemic hit. I think it was February of 2020, right before we got slammed. It was an auction that was organized by David Rago Auction in New Hope, Pennsylvania, and Wright, which is also an auction gallery specializing in modern and modernism from Chicago. Mark McDonald curated the collection, and the idea behind that exhibition was it was going to go from modernist jewelry from the mid-20th century up to the present and show the lineage and the inheritance from the modernist jewelers. It also included Europeans, and there was some wonderful modernist jewelry in that exhibition that sold very well—the move star pieces, the big pieces.
Then there was—I guess a year ago, no more than that—there was an auction at Bonhams auction house which was one couple’s collection of modernist jewelry, artist jewelry—and by artists, I mean Picasso and Max Ernst, modernist artists. They collected a lot of Mexican jewelry and two of Art Smith’s most major bracelets, his modern cuff and his lava cuff. I always forget which sold for what, but these were copper and brass cuffs. One sold for $18,000 and one sold for $13,000. I think the modern cuff was $18,000 and the lava cuff was $13,000. If anybody comes to my lecture tomorrow for GemEx, I talk about both of them in detail. This is big money. Five figures is very big money for these items, but these are the best of the best, the majors of the major by Art Smith. Art Smith is currently very, very coveted.
Sharon: Who’s your favorite of the modernist jewelers? Who would you say?
Toni: Well, I have two favorites. There are three that are the most important, so let’s say three favorites. One is Art Smith, and the reason is because the designs are just brilliant. They really take the body into consideration, negative space into consideration, and they’re just spectacularly designed and beautiful to wear. Sam Kramer, the best of his work, the really weird, crazy, surrealist pieces like the one that’s on the cover and the back of the Sam Kramer book. Margaret de Patta, who was from the San Francisco Bay area, and she was diametrically opposite to these two because her work was based upon constructivism. She had studied under Moholy-Nagy, the Hungarian constructivist painter, sculptor, photographer. Her work is architectural based upon these eccentrically cut stones. She would be inspired by the rutilations, which are the inclusions within quartz, and she would design her structures around them. I would say those are my three favorites.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I wouldn’t have thought of Margaret de Patta. I guess I think of her in a different category. I don’t know why.
Toni: She’s one of the most important modernist jewelers. She founded that whole San Francisco Bay Area MAG, the Metal Arts Guild. She was their guru.
Sharon: When I think of San Francisco at that time, I think of all the jewelry I bought when I was 16 and then I said, “What did I want this for?” Now I see it in the flea markets for 14 times the price I paid for it.
Toni: Right.
Sharon: But who knew. Anyway, Toni, thank you so much. It’s been so great to have you. We really learned a lot. It’s a real treat. Thank you.
Toni: I had a great time also. Thank you for inviting me. Thank you.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Toni Greenbaum
Toni Greenbaum is a New York-based art historian specializing in twentieth and twenty-first century jewelry and metalwork. She wrote Messengers of Modernism: American Studio Jewelry 1940-1960 (Montréal: Musée des Arts Décoratifs and Flammarion, 1996), Sam Kramer: Jeweler on the Edge (Stuttgart: Arnoldsche Art Publishers, 2019) and “Jewelers in Wonderland,” an essay on Sam Kramer and Karl Fritsch for Jewelry Stories: Highlights from the Collection 1947-2019 (New York: Museum of Arts and Design and Arnoldsche, 2021), along with numerous book chapters, exhibition catalogues, and essays for arts publications. Greenbaum has lectured internationally at institutions such as the Pinakothek der Moderne, Munich; Academy of Arts, Architecture and Design in Prague; Yale University Art Gallery, New Haven; Cooper Hewitt Smithsonian Design Museum and Museum of Arts and Design, New York; Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; and Savannah College of Art and Design Museum of Art, Savannah. She has worked on exhibitions for several museums, including the Victoria and Albert in London, Musée des beaux-arts de Montréal, and Bard Graduate Center Gallery, New York.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Once misunderstood as an illegitimate art form, modernist jewelry has come into its own, now fetching five and six-figure prices at auction. Modernist jewelry likely wouldn’t have come this far without the work of Toni Greenbaum, an art historian, professor and author of “Messengers of Modernism: American Studio Jewelry, 1940 to 1960.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history of modernist jewelry; why it sets the women who wear it apart; and where collectors should start if they want to add modernist pieces to their collections. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today my guest is art historian, professor and author Toni Greenbaum. She is the author of the iconic tome, “Messengers of Modernism: American Studio Jewelry, 1940 to 1960,” which analyzes the output of America’s modernist jewelers. Most recently, she authored “Sam Kramer: Jeweler on the Edge,” a biography of the jeweler Sam Kramer. Every time I say jeweler I think I’m using the world a little loosely, but we’re so glad to have you here today. Thank you so much.
Toni: I am so glad to be here, Sharon. Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been many years coming.
Sharon: I’m glad we connected. Tell me about your jewelry journey. It sounds very interesting.
Toni: Well, there’s a lot you don’t know about my jewelry journey. My jewelry journey began when I was a preteen. I just became fascinated with Native American, particularly Navajo, jewelry that I would see in museum gift shops. I started to buy it when I was a teenager, what I could afford. In those days, I have to say museum gift shops were fabulous, particularly the Museum of Natural History gift shop, the Brooklyn Museum gift shop. They had a lot of ethnographic material of very high quality. So, I continued to buy Native American jewelry. My mother used to love handcrafted jewelry, and she would buy it in whatever craft shops or galleries she could find.
Then eventually in my 20s and 30s, I got outpriced. Native American jewelry was becoming very, very fashionable, particularly in the late 60s, 1970s. I started to see something that looked, to me, very much like Native American jewelry, but it was signed. It had names on it, and some of them sounded kind of Mexican—in fact, they were Mexican. So, I started to buy Mexican jewelry because I could afford it. Then that became very popular when names like William Spratling and Los Castillo and Hector Aguilar became known. I saw something that looked like Mexican jewelry and Navajo jewelry, but it wasn’t; it was made by Americans. In fact, it would come to be known as modernist jewelry. Then I got outpriced with that, but that’s the start of my jewelry journey.
Sharon: So, you liked jewelry from when you were a youth.
Toni: Oh, from when I was a child. I was one of these little three, four-year-olds that was all decked out. My mother loved jewelry. I was an only child, and I was, at that time, the only grandchild. My grandparents spoiled me, and my parents spoiled me, and I loved jewelry, so I got a lot of jewelry. That and Frankie Avalon records.
Sharon: Do you still collect modernist? You said you were getting outpriced. You write about it. Do you still collect it?
Toni: Not really. The best of the modernist jewelry is extraordinarily expensive, and unfortunately, I want the best. If I see something when my husband and I are antiquing or at a flea market or at a show that has style and that’s affordable, occasionally I’ll buy it, but I would not say that I can buy the kind of jewelry I want in the modernist category any longer. I did buy several pieces in the early 1980s from Fifty/50 Gallery, when they were first putting modernist jewelry on the map in the commercial aspect. I was writing about it; they were selling it. They were always and still are. Mark McDonald still is so generous with me as far as getting images and aiding my research immeasurably. Back then, the modernist jewelry was affordable, and luckily I did buy some major pieces for a tenth of what they would get today.
Sharon: Wow! When you say the best of modernist jewelry today, Calder was just astronomical. We’ll put that aside.
Toni: Even more astronomical: there’s a Harry Bertoia necklace that somebody called my attention to that is coming up at an auction at Christie’s. If they don’t put that in their jewelry auctions, they’ll put it in their design auctions. I think it’s coming up at the end of June; I forget the exact day. The estimate on the Harry Bertoia necklace is $200,000 to $300,000—and this is a Harry Bertoia necklace. I’m just chomping at the bit to find out what it, in fact, is going to bring, but that’s the estimate they put, at $200,000 to $300,000.
Sharon: That’s a lot of money. What holds your interest in modernist jewelry?
Toni: The incredible but very subtle design aspect of it. Actually, tomorrow I’m going to be giving a talk on Art Smith for GemEx. Because my background is art history, one of the things I always do when I talk about these objects is to show how they were inspired by the modern art movements. This is, I think, what sets modernist jewelry apart from other categories of modern and contemporary jewelry. There are many inspirations, but it is that they are very much inspired by Cubism, Surrealism, Abstract Expressionism, Biomorphism, etc., depending on the artist. Some are influenced by all of the above, and I think I saw that. I saw it implicitly before I began to analyze it in the jewelry.
This jewelry is extraordinarily well-conceived. A lot of the craftsmanship is not pristine, but I have never been one for pristine craftsmanship. I love rough surfaces, and I love the process to show in the jewelry. Much of the modernist jewelry is irreverent—I use the word irreverent instead of sloppy—as far as the process is concerned. It was that hands-on, very direct approach, in addition to this wonderful design sense, which, again, came from the modern art movements. Most of the jewelers—not all of them, but most of them—lived either in New York or in Northern or Southern California and had access to museums, and these people were aesthetes. They would go to museums. They would see Miro’s work; they would see Picasso’s work, and they would definitely infuse their designs with that sensibility.
Sharon: Do you think that jumped out at you, the fact that they were inspired by different art movements, because you studied art history? You teach it, or you did teach it at one time?
Toni: No, just history of jewelry. I majored in art history, but I’ve never taught art history. I’ve taught history of jewelry. We can argue about whether jewelry is art or not, but history of jewelry is what I’ve taught.
Sharon: I’ve taken basic art history, but I couldn’t tell you some of the movements you’re talking about. I can’t identify the different movements. Do you think it jumped out at you because you’re knowledgeable?
Toni: Yes, definitely, because I would look at Art Smith and I would say, “That’s Biomorphism.” I would see it. It was obvious. I would look at Sam Kramer and I would say, “This is Surrealism.” He was called a surrealist jeweler back in his day, when he was practicing and when he had his shop on 8th Street. I would look at Rebajes and I would see Cubism. Of course, it was because I was well-versed in those movements, because what I was always most interested in when I was studying art history were the more modern movements.
Sharon: Did you think you would segue to jewelry in general? Was that something on your radar?
Toni: That’s a very interesting question because when I was in college, I had a nucleus of professors who happened to have come from Cranbrook.
Sharon: I’m sorry, from where?
Toni: Cranbrook School of Art.
Sharon: O.K., Cranbrook.
Toni: I actually took a metalsmithing class as an elective, just to see what it was because I was so interested in jewelry, although I was studying what I call legitimate art history. I was so interested in jewelry that I wanted to see what the process was. I probably was the worst jeweler that ever tried to make jewelry, but I learned what it is to make. I will tell you something else, Sharon, it is what has given me such respect for the jewelers, because when you try to do it yourself and you see how challenging it is, you really respect the people who do it miraculously even more.
So, I took this class just to see what it was, and the teacher—I still remember his name. His name was Cunningham; I don’t remember his first name. He was from Cranbrook, and he sent the class to a retail store in New York on 53rd Street, right opposite MOMA, called America House.
Sharon: Called American House?
Toni: America House. America House was the retail enterprise of the American Craft Council. They had the museum, which was then called the Museum of Contemporary Crafts; now it’s called MAD, Museum of Arts and Design. They had the museum, and they had a magazine, Craft Horizons, which then became American Craft, and then they had this retail store. I went into America House—and this was the late 1960s—and I knew I had found my calling. I looked at this jewelry, which was really fine studio jewelry. It was done by Ronald Pearson; it was done by Jack Kripp. These were the people that America House carried. I couldn’t afford to buy it. I did buy some of the jewelry when they went out of business and had a big sale in the early 1970s. At that time I couldn’t, but I looked at the jewelry and the holloware, and I had never seen anything like it. Yes, I had seen Native American that I loved, and I had seen Mexican that I loved. I hadn’t yet seen modernist; that wasn’t going to come until the early 1980s. But here I saw this second generation of studio jewelers, and I said, “I don’t know what I’m going to do with this professionally, but I know I’ve got to do something with it because this is who I am. This is what I love.”
Back in the late 1960s, it was called applied arts. Anything that was not painting and sculpture was applied art. Ceramics was applied art; furniture was applied art; textiles, jewelry, any kind of metalwork was applied art. Nobody took it seriously as an academic discipline in America, here in this country. Then I went on to graduate school, still in art history. I was specializing in what was then contemporary art, particularly color field painting, but I just loved what was called the crafts, particularly the metalwork. I started to go to the library and research books on jewelry. I found books on jewelry, but they were all published in Europe, mostly England. There were things in other languages other than French, which I could read with a dictionary. There were books on jewelry history, but they were not written in America; everything was in Europe. So, I started to read voraciously about the history of jewelry, mostly the books that came out of the Victoria & Albert Museum. I read all about ancient jewelry and medieval jewelry and Renaissance jewelry. Graham Hughes, who was then the director of the V&A, had written a book, “Modern Jewelry,” and it had jewelry by artists, designed by Picasso and Max Ernst and Brach, including things that were handmade in England and all over Europe. I think even some of the early jewelers in our discipline were in that book. If I remember correctly, I think Friedrich Becker, for example, might have been in Graham Hughes’ “Modern Jewelry,” because that was published, I believe, in the late 1960s.
So, I saw there was a literature in studio jewelry; it just wasn’t in America. Then I found a book on William Spratling, this Mexican jeweler whose work I had collected. It was not a book about his jewelry; it was an autobiography about himself that obviously he had written, but it was so rich in talking about the metalsmithing community in Taxco, Mexico, which is where he, as an American, went to study the colonial architecture. He wound up staying and renovating the silver mines that had been dormant since the 18th century. It was such a great story, and I said, “There’s something here,” but no graduate advisor at that time, in the early 70s, was going to support you in wanting to do a thesis on applied art, no matter what the medium. But in the back of my mind, I always said, “I’m going to do something with this at some point.”
Honestly, Sharon, I never thought I would live to see the day that this discipline is as rich as it is, with so much literature, with our publishers publishing all of these fantastic jewelry books, and other publishers, like Flammarion in Paris, which published “Messengers of Modernism.” Then there’s the interest in Montreal at the Museum of Fine Arts, which is the museum that has the “Messengers of Modernism” collection. It has filtered into the Houston Museum of Fine Arts, Dallas, obviously MAD. So many museums are welcoming. I never thought I would live to see the day. It really is so heartening. I don’t have words to express how important this is, but I just started to do it. In the early 1970s or mid-1970s—I don’t think my daughter was born yet. My son was a toddler. I would sit in my free moments and write an article about William Spratling, because he was American. He went to Mexico, but he was American. He was the only American I knew of that I could write about. Not that that article was published at that time, but I was doing the research and I was writing it.
Sharon: That’s interesting. If there had been a discipline of jewelry history or something in the applied arts, if an advisor had said, “Yes, I’ll support you,” or “Why don’t you go ahead and get your doctorate or your master’s,” that’s something you would have done?
Toni: Totally, without even a thought, yes. Because when I was studying art history, I would look at Hans Holbein’s paintings of Henry VIII and Sir Thomas More, and all I would do was look at the jewelry they were wearing, the chains and the badges on their berets. I said, “Oh my god, that is so spectacular.” Then I learned that Holbein actually designed the jewelry, which a lot of people don’t know. I said, “There is something to this.” I would look at 18th century paintings with women, with their pearls and rings and bracelets, and all I would do was look at the jewelry. I would have in a heartbeat. If I could have had a graduate advisor, I would have definitely pursued that.
Sharon: When you say you never thought you’d live to see the day when modernist jewelry is so popular—not that it’s so surprising, but you are one of the leaders of the movement. When I mentioned to somebody, “Oh, I like modernist jewelry,” the first thing they said was, “Well, have you read ‘Messengers of Modernism?’” As soon as I came home—I was on a trip—I got it. So, you are one of the leaders.
Toni: Well, it is interesting. It is sort of the standard text, but people will say, “Well, why isn’t Claire Falkenstein in the book? She’s so important,” and I say, “It’s looked upon as a standard text, but the fact is it’s a catalogue to an exhibition. That was the collection.” Fifty/50 Gallery had a private collection. As I said before, they were at the forefront of promoting and selling modernist jewelry, but they did have a private collection. That collection went to Montreal in the 1990s because at that time, there wasn’t an American museum that was interested in taking that collection. That book is the catalogue of that finite collection. So, there are people who are major modernist jewelers—Claire Falkenstein is one that comes to mind—that are not in that collection, so they’re not in the book. There’s a lot more to be said and written about that movement.
Sharon: I’m sure you’ve been asked this a million times: What’s the difference between modern and modernist jewelry?
Toni: Modern is something that’s up to date at a point in time, but modernist jewelry is—this is a word we adopted. The word existed, but we adopted it to define the mid-20th century studio jewelry, the post-war jewelry. It really goes from 1940 to the 1960s. That’s it; that’s the time limit of modernist jewelry. Again, it’s a word we appropriated. We took that word and said, “We’re going to call this category modernist jewelry because we have to call it something, so that’s the term.” Modern means up to date. That’s just a general word.
Sharon: When you go to a show and see things that are in the modernist style, it’s not truly modernist if it was done today, it wasn’t done before 1960.
Toni: Right, no. Modernist jewelry is work that’s done in that particular timeframe and that also subscribes to what I was saying, this appropriation of motifs from the modern art movement. There was plenty of costume jewelry and fine jewelry being done post-war, and that is jewelry that is mid-20th century. You can call it mid-20th century modern, which confuses the issue even more, but it’s not modernist jewelry. Modernist jewelry is jewelry that was done in the studio by a silversmith and was inspired by the great movements in modern art and some other inspirations. Art Smith was extremely motivated by African motifs, but also by Calder and by Biomorphism. It’s not religious. There are certainly gray areas, but in general, that’s modernist jewelry.
Sharon: I feel envious when you talk about everything that was going in on New York. I have a passion, but there’s no place on the West Coast that I would go to look at some of this stuff.
Toni: I’ll tell you one of the ironies, Sharon. Post-war, definitely through the 1950s and early 1960s, there must have been 13 to 15 studio shops by modernist jewelers. You had Sam Kramer on 8th Street and Art Smith on 4th Street and Polo Bell, who was on 4th Street and then he was on 8th Street, and Bill Tendler, and you had Jules Brenner, and Henry Steig was Uptown. Ed Wiener was all over the place. There were so many jewelers in New York, and I never knew about them. I never went to any of their shops. I used to hang out in the Village when I was a young teenager, walked on 4th Street; never saw Art Smith’s shop. He was there from 1949 until 1977. I used to walk on 8th Street, and Sam Kramer was on the second floor. I never looked up, and I didn’t know this kind of jewelry existed. In those days, like I said, I was still collecting Navajo.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Caroline Morrissey
Caroline Morrissey is Director and Head of Jewelry at Bonhams in New York. Her areas of expertise span diamonds and colored gemstones to 20th century jewelry. She has a particular interest in large white and colored diamonds.
Since joining Bonhams in 2014, Caroline's exceptional sales include a diamond riviere necklace, which sold for $1,205,000 in June 2015; a diamond solitaire ring which sold for $1,807,500 in September 2017; and an unmounted Kashmir sapphire which sold for $1,244,075 in July 2020.
Caroline discovered her passion for the jewelry business more than two decades ago, in a charming jewelry store in Edinburgh, Scotland, where she worked on weekends during high school. Her career started in the diamond industry in Antwerp, Belgium, and she has also held positions at the prominent luxury retailers Cartier and Leviev.
Caroline studied a double major in Economics and Politics from the University of York, England.
Photos:
New York–Bonhams will present more than 200 jewels from the Estate of George and Charlotte Shultzon May 23, 2022, including more than 70 pieces from Tiffany & Co. Charlotte wore her jewels to receive Queen Elizabeth II, Pope John Paul II, and countless world leaders as San Francisco’s chief of protocol for more than fifty years, serving ten mayors. She found her perfect match in George Shultz, a great American statesman who served as secretary of state under President Ronald Reagan and held four different cabinet positions under three presidents. Their personal collection will be featured in a dedicated sale at Bonhams New York that will celebrate their life of philanthropy and elegance. Below are a few photos of auction items.Additional Resources:
Transcript:
What makes a gemstone stand out from the rest? You can talk about color, shape and cut, but sometimes a stone inexplicably draws you in. That’s the experience Caroline Morrissey has had many times as Director of the Jewelry Department for Bonhams in New York. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the most memorable jewelry she’s sold; why collectors shouldn’t be too rigid about maintaining a specific theme for their collection; and what qualities make a gemstone special. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Today, my Guest is Caroline Morrissey, Director of the Jewelry Department for Bonhams. Welcome back.
What are you normally attracted to? Why would it surprise you?
Caroline: Well, I’m very boring. I like my jewelry to be simple. I have no problem with it being bold, but I don’t want it to be complicated and bold. I find myself in a situation where I have a great appreciation for many gemstones, but that does not mean I would wear them myself—but doesn’t mean I don’t like them. There are all sorts of 1935-40’s jewels that are slightly out of character, but at the same time I’m completely embracing them. This is, by the way, mostly in most dreams. I unfortunately do not have a fabulous jewelry box at home full of these jewels. But I mostly lean towards simple designs. If it can be a hundred years old, all the better.
Sharon: Do you think they select jewelry because—what’s the word they use? It is classic, like you’re talking about, but 40, 50 years from now they’ll still love it as much. Do you think people look at that, or do they go more with trends?
Caroline: I think a lot of people go with trends and then they regret it. When I work with clients—I mean, it depends what the piece of jewelry is for. If they’re adding to a collection and they’re looking for a specific period, that’s completely different. But if you’ve got somebody who’s looking for an engagement ring or bridal or that type of jewelry, I do believe a lot of people fall into whatever is in vogue right now, and they don’t realize, “O.K., everyone’s different.” Like you say, in 40, 50 years’ time, it will just be a style from the period.
I always try and advise that there are very, very small changes you can make to many styles that will transform that piece of jewelry into a timeless and elegant piece. It can be a combination of modern yet traditional. You look at some of the pieces from a long time ago and transplant them to today, and many of them are still in fashion. They’re timeless; they will never cease to be so. I think as soon as you point that out to somebody, it becomes so obvious, but I don’t think that’s necessarily what people always want going into it. It’s hard not to want what is in style now.
Sharon: Yes. It sounds like you have a secondary career with restyling jewelry, though.
Caroline: Well, the design element of it is really fun. I don’t think I’m that great at it, but I’m definitely going to offer you my ideas, just in case.
Sharon: You’ve used the words collectors, collections. When you say a collector comes to you, is a collector like me, somebody who has a box full of jewelry? Or is it something where they have an emerald; they have a ruby; they have sapphires? What’s a collection to you?
Caroline: A collection, to me, is a group of jewelry. I feel that a collection has a different meaning to each individual. It could be a combination of pieces that you have inherited and pieces that have been given to you, perhaps pieces you’ve bought yourself. Then you could have a collector who has a collection within a specific genre. I will say that as hard as it may be, most people who collect for specific collections, whatever the time period, color, style might be, usually have a few pieces or more that fall out of the parameters for that collection, because usually they are drawn to something they can’t say no to.
So, a collection to me is literally whatever is in that jewelry box, and it doesn’t need to match. Some pieces could be broken. There could be elements of one piece and a complete matching set of another piece, but what we can do? I very much enjoy going through that collection and sorting out what needs to be done, how it should be sold, what will work for the owner, because everyone has different needs. On top of that, everyone’s jewelry, if you’re on the selling side, is different, and it usually requires a little bit of work to be done. We’ve got to do some sleuthing, finding out what particular pieces are, if they started off life together, if they were married together at a later stage in their jewelry life. That’s a really fun thing to do, and it can also help people find out more about where their jewelry has come from. It can be a really interesting road to go down.
Sharon: That sounds very interesting. Tell us about some of your most memorable sales.
Caroline: How about some memorable auction pieces within the sale?
Sharon: O.K., great.
Caroline: I’ve got some great stories for you.
Sharon: Please, O.K.
Caroline: I’m going to start off with the first one. It was a sapphire and diamond ring. This lady had bought the ring from an antique store, and she had been told the sapphire was synthetic but the mounting was a Tiffany mounting. It was a Deco, very beautiful yet simple Tiffany mounting. She bought it for $800, which was basically the cost of the mounting and the synthetic stone. She enjoyed it. Things happened with her life, and at some point, she had been told by someone that it might not be synthetic, this sapphire. That prompted her to call us. Long story short, we managed to lay eyes on the piece. We sent it to a lab, and it came back as an 8-carat Burma origin, no heat, no enhancements.
Long story short, it went into a sale. They flew here and sat in the front row of the auction. It hammered for $200,000. Afterwards she came up—she was with a friend and was in tears—and thanked us so much, because her husband had medical problems, and this was going to make everything O.K. for them so that she didn’t have to sell her house. That’s a really special moment to be a part of, and she was so thankful. We didn’t actually know the full story of how much all of this meant until the very end, but these things really do happen.
Sharon: Wow!
Caroline: I have another story for you. We had this brooch that was sent in to us. I’m going to try to be diplomatic here, but I don’t think it had been cleaned in a very, very long time. It had been bought from a garage sale for $8. Anyway, long story short, it had a diamond, an emerald and a ruby under a carat, but it was really fine quality once it was all cleaned up. We had the diamond certified, and it came back as a VS1, so the highest color, completely clean, and an old stone. The emeralds came back Colombian with minor or insignificant inclusions. Again, very, very high quality. The ruby came back Burma, no heat. This tiny, little brooch sold for $35,000.
Sharon: Wow!
Caroline: It does not happen often, but it does happen, these stories. I suppose that’s one of the amazing parts of being at auction, that you can be part of somebody’s journey, whether it’s from a garage sale and is a big surprise, or something that comes in and is an angel at a time of need.
Sharon: Wow! The stories you’re telling are the reason I like antiques, I suppose.
Caroline: Oh, absolutely. I have more. It really does happen, and it’s amazing.
Sharon: It is amazing, and it makes you want to go out to every flea market and garage sale. I just don’t have any kind of patience for that.
Do you have people who say, “Only call me if you have an unset stone that you think is worth me looking at”? Or do they say, “I don’t care what the stone is set in, give me a call”? Do you have collectors who just want the stone?
Caroline: The thing is, in most cases, people need a stone to be set in a piece of jewelry to visualize it. Even if they don’t expect to wear it or it’s not their intention to wear it, just to view it as a piece of jewelry, it needs to be in some type of setting. It doesn’t even need to be a nice setting. It just needs to be a vehicle to make that stone or stones into a piece of jewelry.
I have clients who say to me, “If you have important colored stones, please call me,” and they will not care what those colored stones are set in. In many cases, they probably won’t care how old the stone is. They are just looking for beautiful colored stones. I suppose based on what I have, they’ll work out whether it’s interesting to them, but in most cases in that scenario, the mounting is neither here nor there. They’re looking at the stone. They don’t care if it’s in a ring or a piece of jewelry.
Sharon: Do think they want to have the stone set themselves? Do you think they take it and have it put in a piece of jewelry themselves, or do they take the stone and put it in their safe and say, “That’s nice.” What do they do?
Caroline: Some people definitely do that. If they’re going to put it in a safe, they’re probably just going to leave it in the mounting it came in and put it in the safe and close the door. I suppose it depends on what the purchase is for, but auction is a secondary market, so you’re not necessarily going to walk in and find your perfect stone in the perfect mounting, especially with diamonds. Most of our clients will first and foremost, if they’re looking for stones, look for that stone. If they need to make any changes to the mounting or style, they will do that afterwards.
Those people looking for jewelry, they’re in a completely different category. The stones become insignificant to them because they’re looking for a piece of jewelry, and they will oftentimes have a time period or a designer or a style in mind. If it does have stones in it, those stones will enhance the piece of jewelry, but the purchase will be about the jewelry versus the stones, if that makes sense.
Sharon: Yes, it makes a lot of sense. What do you see as the market for stones for jewelry, or stones in general? You hear so much about changes with younger buyers. What’s the market? Is it the same as always?
Caroline: The market is strong at the moment; that’s for sure. I will tell you the number of very, very fine quality, unenhanced, colored gemstones, there are not so many around, and those that are around are incredibly expensive. You can see that, in many cases, the younger generation can very easily be priced out. They want a Burmese ruby, but to get a nice one, they have to have incredibly deep pockets.
So, what we’re seeing now is—and I’ll carry on with rubies as an example—they’re going to make concessions. They might say they want a Burmese ruby, but in order to afford one, they’re going to take a heated Burmese ruby. So, they’re getting a few of the things they want, but not everything. On the flip side of that, there’s this wonderful source of rubies in Mozambique. People are now saying, “O.K., I can still have a beautiful ruby, but instead of it being from Burma, I’m going to get an equally beautiful one from Mozambique and it's going to cost me less.” It might not have the cachet of a Burmese ruby, but that’s the direction they want to go in. We’re seeing people look for alternatives in quite a saturated market.
We’re seeing that spinels are coming up now, and more people are really interested in spinels. They’re realizing what fabulous colors they come in and what bright stones they are. I see that really taking off in the next five to 10 years. Already in the last five years, spinels have made big tracks into the market, and I see that continuing. I think the new generation of buyers is a little more open to different sources and different gemstones than perhaps the previous generation was.
Sharon: I think open is a good word. I think it’s broadened. It’s not just emerald, sapphire, ruby, but spinels and padparadscha seem like the big ones.
Caroline: Padparadschas are sapphires. They are stones that have a very specific combination of pink and yellow for a padparadscha. A beautifully colored padparadscha that is clean and unheated with an ideal origin is very desirable, as we say, very, very desirable.
Sharon: Yes, so I hear. That’s one I happen to hear about. The spinels have broadened the market. It seems that now people are more open.
Caroline: I think they’re much more open now. They’re willing to look at different styles and different colors and different minerals and realizing it can be fun. It’s a good alternative; it’s not a bad alternative.
Sharon: Right, and it may be the only viable alternative, in a sense.
Caroline: I think many people are realizing that. Because, like I said, to get a high-quality, Burma, no-heat ruby, first you’ve got to find it and then you’ve got to acquire it. I would say that the vast majority of people—and this is a very small stone—they’re going to find that to be difficult.
Sharon: Yes, you’re the one who would know. Thank you so much for talking with us today. It’s very, very interesting. I appreciate it, and I hope you have everything you want come across your desk.
Caroline: Thank you very much. It’s been an absolute pleasure. Yes, I can’t wait to do it again.
Sharon: Thanks a lot, Caroline.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Caroline Morrissey
Caroline Morrissey is Director and Head of Jewelry at Bonhams in New York. Her areas of expertise span diamonds and colored gemstones to 20th century jewelry. She has a particular interest in large white and colored diamonds.
Since joining Bonhams in 2014, Caroline's exceptional sales include a diamond riviere necklace, which sold for $1,205,000 in June 2015; a diamond solitaire ring which sold for $1,807,500 in September 2017; and an unmounted Kashmir sapphire which sold for $1,244,075 in July 2020.
Caroline discovered her passion for the jewelry business more than two decades ago, in a charming jewelry store in Edinburgh, Scotland, where she worked on weekends during high school. Her career started in the diamond industry in Antwerp, Belgium, and she has also held positions at the prominent luxury retailers Cartier and Leviev.
Caroline studied a double major in Economics and Politics from the University of York, England.
Photos:
New York–Bonhams will present more than 200 jewels from the Estate of George and Charlotte Shultzon May 23, 2022, including more than 70 pieces from Tiffany & Co. Charlotte wore her jewels to receive Queen Elizabeth II, Pope John Paul II, and countless world leaders as San Francisco’s chief of protocol for more than fifty years, serving ten mayors. She found her perfect match in George Shultz, a great American statesman who served as secretary of state under President Ronald Reagan and held four different cabinet positions under three presidents. Their personal collection will be featured in a dedicated sale at Bonhams New York that will celebrate their life of philanthropy and elegance. Below are a few photos of auction items.Additional Resources:
Transcript:
What makes a gemstone stand out from the rest? You can talk about color, shape and cut, but sometimes a stone inexplicably draws you in. That’s the experience Caroline Morrissey has had many times as Director of the Jewelry Department for Bonhams in New York. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the most memorable jewelry she’s sold; why collectors shouldn’t be too rigid about maintaining a specific theme for their collection; and what qualities make a gemstone special. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Caroline Morrissey, Director of the Jewelry Department for Bonhams, located in New York and around the world. Caroline’s area of expertise spans diamonds and colored gemstones through 20th century jewelry, but her passion is large, white diamonds—she has a lot of company there—and colored diamonds. She’s had a wide and varied jewelry career, which we’ll hear about today. Caroline, welcome to the program.
Caroline: Thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you attracted to diamonds and gems when you were young—well, you’re still young, but when you were a youth?
Caroline: Yes, I was. I always enjoyed, probably more than the average child, my grandmother’s jewelry. I was interested in it, but the big change for me came when a friend of mine—I grew up in Edinburgh in Scotland—his parents had a couple of jewelry stores. When I was 16, they asked if I would be able to help over the holiday period in December, just with small bits of jewelry and to run any errands and so on. I did, and I loved it.
I wanted to learn more, so I ended up staying as a Saturday girl and working through my summers until I graduated high school. It was during this that I realized there was more to a diamond engagement ring; there was more to a piece of jewelry. It meant something to the buyers. There was more than the just the stone behind it. Where did it come from? What was its journey? What was its quality compared to others? That never left me, and that experience put me on my journey to where I am now. It was wonderful.
Sharon: When you were talking about the story behind the stone, were you starting to differentiate the stone from the entire piece of jewelry?
Caroline: At that age, I realized that not all old diamonds were the same. To sell an engagement ring was a learning curve. It was about the piece of jewelry, but it was also about the clients. In many cases, it was actually about the client’s person who they loved. You didn’t necessarily meet that person, but it was going to be a specific piece of jewelry that was bought for this person. It really brought to light how personal it was. Pieces of art that are not jewelry, they might sit above your mantlepiece, but you don’t wear them. I think that is the difference for me with jewelry. It’s so very, very personal.
Sharon: Would you say the personal aspect applies to jewelry in general as opposed to anything else?
Caroline: I would, because people acquire jewelry in different ways. Any jewelry that has been passed down from a member of their family is personal for reasons that are different. But that piece of jewelry that you’ve bought for yourself, there’s a reason why you’ve bought it. The same again if somebody close, whether it’s a partner or a child or a friend, gives you a piece of jewelry. All of these different ways of acquiring jewelry are very personal.
It goes to other people, but the journey is like a charm bracelet. The charms can be very personal to one person, but the next person might still be interested in that charm bracelet for different reasons. That continuing, varying personal connection with jewelry, for me, is quite unique in the collecting field. Unlike other pieces of art, you actually wear it, and you have to like it to wear it. It sometimes needs to mean something to you to wear it as well.
Sharon: You must find a lot of that personal aspect at Bonhams, being able to tie one piece to a person to sell it. I mean that in a nice way, in terms of how to draw out what their story is and then be able to connect it.
Caroline: Absolutely. Everyone has their own story, whether it’s from a selling point of view or a buying point of view. It’s an amazing opportunity to be able to connect with those people and understand what is behind them wanting to do a certain thing, whether it’s to sell or to buy, and to understand what is important to them. We can say, “You should be interested in this piece of jewelry or this stone for this particular reason,” and that may well be true in the grand scheme of things, but people personally can have different reasons. There’s nothing wrong with that. We are all attracted to different colors, different textures, for our own reasons. I think jewelry really shows different personalities and different trends, and it can also change. I’m always surprised by bits of jewelry that I like that might not necessarily be a standard for me, but it’s O.K. to deviate from that. Something is appearing that’s not necessarily something I can explain, if that makes sense.
Sharon: Yes. How does all this tie to Bonhams? How does it tie to the auction market? As pieces come across your desk, do they talk to you?
Caroline: Some talk really loudly in negative ways and positive ways, but mostly positive. I think one of the reasons I enjoy auction is that it’s a real opportunity to see the best of the best. I say that with honesty because I don’t think one can really appreciate the most spectacular pieces of jewelry and gemstones without fully comprehending that not every piece is of that same caliber, and that there are ones that really stand out. It affords me the ability to see pieces made yesterday and pieces made 150-200 years ago. You can see what was in vogue 70 years ago versus what is now, what colors, what gemstones, what shapes, what styles.
Together with the variety in jewelry comes the huge variety in people that have owned them or bough the jewelry. I’m a people person, and it’s amazing to hear people’s stories, people’s situations, people’s needs, and tie that all together with jewelry. You get a greater level of understanding of what will make them happy and what jewelry is doing in their lives right now.
Sharon: As a professional, how does Bonhams fit into all this? How does it fit into the whole auction market, as opposed a Doyle, a Christie’s, a Sotheby’s, that sort of thing? Where does Bonhams fit into all that?
Caroline: First of all, at Bonhams we have more than 50 jewelry auctions a year throughout the world, which is a lot. One of the great things is that we offer pieces at almost every single price point, so there are no barriers to buy jewelry at Bonhams. There’s going to be something for everybody. For somebody who’s looking to sell, we have the ability to take an entire estate or an entire collection. We’re not going to come in and just take the top lots; it’s going to be a one-source solution for the entire collection, and that can be really helpful. On the other side of that, it affords the buyer a huge variety within a collection to browse through and see what works for them at Bonhams.
I like to view Bonhams as being a boutique auction house. We have the ability to work with clients from the beginning to the end of their journey and put together something for them that is unique and custom and will work with their situation. It’s not cookie cutter. In some ways that could create a little more work, but it’s the end result that matters. There’s something wonderfully satisfying to meet clients on the first day of their inquiry and to shake their hands at the end of a successful sale. Being there to answer all of the questions and travel down the road together is very, very satisfying, and it’s a privilege.
Sharon: Is that your role there? Are you called in when somebody says, “I need the big guns on this”? How does that work?
Caroline: Yes, sometimes. It’s very collaborative here, so we work together. But, sure, I have a level of expertise where sometimes I can come in and give my opinion with other members of staff. It depends on the situation. There are some people where their situation is very straightforward and other people where it’s not straightforward at all. Some people can make decisions quickly; some people need extra time. There’s no right or wrong.
I can’t say I do it with everybody, but I have a lot of clients that I deal with directly myself, and it is a true pleasure to go from the beginning to the end. Most people who deal with jewelry in New York at Bonhams will come across my place at some point in their journey here.
Sharon: It must be satisfying to have pieces of jewelry come across your desk and then call a client you’ve worked with in the past and say, “You have got to see this piece.”
Caroline: Absolutely.
Sharon: Do you find that’s something you end up doing quite a bit? How does that work?
Caroline: We’ve got a sale coming up next week, and we have some very interesting pieces in it. This doesn’t happen every day with every sale, but certainly with the pieces in this particular one. We have a beautiful emerald bracelet. It’s an amazing opportunity for me to call some of my clients and say, “You have to see this. I know you’re going to be interested in it. Whether or not you end up as the final buyer, even if you don’t bid, it is fabulous enough for you to make the effort to come see it with your own eyes. If you’re interested in jewelry, this is something you have to see.” I don’t always have that opportunity, but that’s what I’ve been doing this week and last week with this particular piece. It’s nice to see everybody come together and to hear their opinions. At the end of the day, everyone has their own opinions, but in most cases we agree. It’s nice to get people to come out of the woodwork for something special.
Sharon: Coming out of the woodwork, that must be very satisfying. In reading about you and from what I’ve been told about your background, it sounds like your expertise is jewelry, but especially gems themselves, the colored diamonds, the diamonds. Is that the case?
Caroline: Yes, I have to just admit to it and say yes. I started off my career proper in Antwerp, Belgium in the diamond business. I looked at so many diamonds in my training there that I think there would have been something wrong if I hadn’t fallen head over heels in love with diamonds. There’s something to me that’s special about stones, and not just diamonds, but colored stones. To me, they all have a personality; they all have a charm. I love how the different facets, the different colors, the different shapes all can combine to produce something absolutely wonderful. In many cases, it combines to make something not so wonderful, or they’re close to being perfect but not quite. Then it requires you to think, “Who can help get this stone to the next level?” because there might be a buyer out there who could make something a bit more perfect or a bit more desirable. That’s not to say I don’t love jewelry. I truly do, but if I had to choose, holding a really special gemstone in my hands without a mounting is always going to be a thrill for me.
Sharon: When you say a really special gemstone, what’s making it special? The cut, the color, everything?
Caroline: Where do I begin? It’s going to be a little bit of everything. Obviously, it depends on exactly what gemstone we’re talking about, but to keep things relatively simple, the shape and the cut of the stone is one of the most important things because that is what your eye sees the moment it lays eyes on the stone.
The next thing is going to be color. If you think of a ruby, you think of red. So, you want the overall appearance of any ruby you see to be red. That sounds like a very simple request, for lack of a better word, but not all rubies are as red as you want them to be. That doesn’t make them inferior in the grand scheme of things, but it does alter how your brain processes that. Then within that color, how soft is the color, how clean is the stone when you’re taking a closer look, how old is the stone?
In many cases, some of the most charming stones were cut 100 or 150 years ago. I have this joke in my head that the lack of technology when it comes to cutting stones can sometimes result in a superior stone. I think today we have all these wonderful techniques and technology to make everything perfect, but sometimes what they did with their bare hands and their eyes a hundred years ago can make a stone even more perfect than you can make today. Maybe perfect is the wrong word; maybe charming. But so many old stones are full of character that is rare to see today.
Sharon: It takes somebody who really appreciates the stone to see what you’re saying. I look at a stone and I see a stone, unless it’s really—for example, this weekend somebody showed me a ring from the 40s with citrine. It was not a good citrine; it was too light. I knew it was way too light, but I’m looking at something from a real simplistic perspective. If it was an emerald, I’d say, “Oh, it’s green to me.” Do you see green in a ruby? Is that what you were saying?
Caroline: Oh no, I’m just saying that a ruby is technically red, but there’s pinkish red; there’s purplish red. I have to say that even for somebody whose profession isn’t looking at gemstones in the way I do, I do think that somebody who is interested in gemstones and jewelry—for example, my father is an architect, so he’s got an eye for design and details. You would be surprised at how much the naked eye just looking at something will tell you.
I reckon that if I lined up some stones, probably a lot of laymen could look at them and point out the best stone because in many ways, you’re just drawn to it. You might not be able to articulate exactly why you’re drawn to it, but you will just be drawn to it. That’s another reason why I love these stones. You can’t always get to the nuts and bolts of exactly why. There’s just something that is appealing to you.
Sharon: You used the word charming a couple of times. What makes a stone charming?
Caroline: Oh, wow! What makes a stone charming to me? Well, the old style of cutting, which is—and I don’t want to get too technical—but big facets, a big, open stone. Usually, they have soft edges versus straight edges, soft corners. If it’s in a piece of jewelry, the mounting is most likely going to be something simple which brings your eyes to the center of the stone, versus so much detail or clunkiness that you sometimes see in today’s mountings. Also, a lot of modern mountings try very hard. Old mountings don’t try as hard. They let the stone sing for itself, and I think it’s that perfect balance that can make a stone on a piece of jewelry charming.
Sharon: Do you have collectors who collect jewelry because of the stone? Do you have stone collectors?
Caroline: Sure, I suppose people who buy at auction appear in all shapes and forms. You never know exactly why they’re buying something, but I think you have your jewelry collectors, and you have your stone people. Those guys are fairly easy to differentiate between, but then you have a pool of collectors for whom the stones and the jewelry belong together. Both of them need to be correct, if that makes sense. You could have this fabulous old diamond, but it’s only fabulous if it’s in the original mounting. Even if it’s not a particularly exquisite mounting, it is in its original mounting, so the two work together as a piece.
For those people, it might be a big collection they’re working towards, or it might not be. It might be something they’re going to wear occasionally, and they have statement pieces of jewelry that appeal to them. I always like to try and work out why people are buying certain things and what their end goal is, but as long as they’re enthusiastic about the piece and it talks to them, then I’m not sure anything else matters.
Sharon: Don’t you at least have to have a sense of why it’s talking to them so you can identify other things? So you can talk to them about what’s talking to them, basically?
Caroline: Sure, but I don’t know if it’s necessarily always specific. If somebody is interested in important colored stones, I will make sure to keep them on my radar for important pieces that come in. But they might turn around and say, “I’m not really interested in emeralds unless they are such and such.” I think you can get a lot of information from people to help them with furthering their collection or help them with what they want to do with an existing collection, but with the jewelry world certainly—and I can’t speak to any other field—I do like to think that if something special comes along, be it a piece of jewelry or a gemstone or a combination of both, it doesn’t necessarily need to fit into what they have or what they think they want. It’s like a wild card or a curve ball. It might just be the right thing at the right time, and they might have been in the industry long enough to know that some things are really rare, and this is an opportunity. I guess it is my role to keep those doors open.
I don’t necessarily need to know too specifically what somebody is interested in because I don’t not want to contact them about something just because it falls slightly outside those parameters. If somebody has a level of understanding and a passion, they might be open to all sorts of options, and some jewelry items don’t come around that often. Like I said before, even if it’s just, “Come and look and touch and handle and see that color with your own eyes,” it can be worth it. That can allow somebody to follow their own jewelry journey, even if they’re not adding it specifically to their own personal collection.
Sharon: That’s a really good point. As long as I’ve been doing this, I’ve never ascertained what I collect. I just collect things I like.
Caroline: Absolutely, and it’s hard to articulate that. Also, just like styles and fashions, things come in sets. You might like something in one period of your life and change to something else. I currently have a little bit of a love affair with the late Deco, early retro jewelry period. This took me by storm a couple of years ago. It was a couple of pieces of jewelry that came in and landed on my desk, and I couldn’t take my eyes off of them. It was very out of character from what I normally like. I don’t know if it will last, but that’s why I never want to impose too many parameters because you never know what might take your fancy.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About John Stuart Gordon
John Stuart Gordon is the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. He grew up among the redwoods of Northern California before venturing East and receiving a B.A. from Vassar College, an M.A. from the Bard Graduate Center for Studies in the Decorative Arts, Design, and Culture, and a PH.D. from Boston University. He works on all aspects of American design and has written on glass, American modernism, studio ceramics, and postmodernism. His exhibition projects have explored postwar American architecture, turned wood, and industrial design. In addition, he supervises the Furniture Study, the Gallery’s expansive study collection of American furniture and wooden objects.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Perhaps more than any other metal or gem, gold brings out strong reactions in people (and has for all of recorded history). That’s what curator John Stuart Gordon wanted to explore with “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power,” a featured exhibition now on view at the Yale University Art Gallery. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why people have always been enchanted by gold; what he discovered while creating the exhibit; and why curation is more that just selecting a group of objects. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is John Stuart Gordon, the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. Welcome back.
I’m curious; I know you recently had a group from Christie’s studying jewelry that came to visit your exhibit. I’m curious if they asked different questions, or if there’s something that stood out in what they were asking that might have been different from a group studying something else.
John: Every group is different. I love them all, and I learn so much from taking groups of visitors through because you start looking at objects through their lens. Recently a group of makers came through and, wow, that was a wonderful experience, because I could make a reference to, “Oh, look at the decoration on this,” and then, “Is it chaste or is it gadroon?” “What kind of anvil are they working with?” We have to answer these questions. There are some things I can’t answer but a maker can identify easily, so I’m learning things.
Maybe someone who’s a collector or an appraiser is thinking about objects in a very different way, wanting to know how rare it is, if there are only a handful, where they are, how many are still in private collections, what’s in the museum collection. One of my favorite tours was with a small group of young children who had a completely different set of preconceived notions. I had to explain what an 18th century whistle and bells would have been used for because they’d never seen one before. I had to talk about what kinds of child’s toys they remembered from when they were kids, trying to relate. Every group has a slightly different lens, and you can never anticipate the questions they’re going to ask.
Sharon: Yes, they’re coming at you from the weirdest angles. In putting this together, what surprised you most about gold in America? What surprised you most about putting this exhibit together? What made you say, “Gosh, I never knew that,” or “I never thought about that”? There’s a lot, but what’s the overriding question, let’s say.
John: It’s such a nerdy answer, and I apologize for being such a nerd, but what surprised me the most was an archival discovery. Mind you, this all takes place against the background of lockdown and having way too much time on our hands and looking for distractions. I pulled a historical newspaper database that the library subscribes to, and I typed in the word “gold” and pushed enter. There were about three million responses that came back, and I just started reading my way through. Not all of them were interesting, but I was struck by the frequency with which people were discussing gold, and I was struck by the global knowledge at a very early period. I would find articles written in the 1720s in colonial Boston talking about the Spanish fleets leaving Havana Harbor with amounts of silver and gold onboard. They would describe how much gold, how much silver, was it coins, was it bars, was it unrefined. There was a newspaper report coming out of New York in the 1750s talking about a new gold strike at a mine in Central Europe. That was truly unexpected: to realize that this material was of such importance that people were talking about it on a daily basis, and that it was newsworthy on this global scale. People weren’t just talking about what was going on in colonial Boston or colonial Philadelphia. They were talking about what was going on in Prussia and Bogota. I think we often think of early history as very insular, and we think of our present day as global. History has always been global, and it was a lovely reminder of how global our culture always has been.
Sharon: That’s interesting, especially talking about global. I just reread Hamilton. They’re talking about Jefferson and Madison and everybody going over to France and coming back. I think about the boats, and I think, “Oh, my god.” I think of everybody as staying in place. You couldn’t get me on one of those boats. What a voyage. But that was global. Everybody was communicating with everybody else. So, yes, it always has been that way, but it’s very surprising, the movement that has been there for so long. We could go on and on about that.
Let me ask you this: Yale Art Gallery just received a donation from Susan Grant Lewin of modern jewelry, art jewelry, on the cutting edge. At the museum and gallery, is the emphasis more on jewelry as part of material culture and decorative arts? Not every museum or art gallery would have been open to it. What’s the philosophy there?
John: Yes, we just received a gift of about two dozen pieces of contemporary jewelry from Susan Grant Lewin, who is a collector and scholar. We’ve also received a gift from the Enamel Arts Foundation, which is a foundation that collects and promotes enamel objects and jewelry. We have a long history of collecting jewelry, and it’s based on historic collections. The core of the American decorative arts collection is the Mabel Brady Garvan Collection. It started coming to the art gallery in 1930. It’s this rather storied collection. It covers everything you can imagine: furniture, glass, ceramics, textiles, you name it.
It was assembled by a man named Francis P. Garvan, who was a Yalee. He graduated in the late 19th century and he gave it in honor of his wife. His main love, after his wife and his family, was silver, and the collection at Yale is probably the most important collection of early American silver in any museum. Silversmiths and goldsmiths, the names are interchangeable, and it is mostly men at that period who were making silver objects and gold objects. They’re also making jewelry. As you take the story forward, it doesn’t change a lot. People who are trained as metalsmiths often will make holloware and/or jewelry. The fields are very closely allied, and the techniques are very closely allied. So for us, it makes complete sense to have this very important historical collection of metalwork go all the way up to the present.
We have a lot of 20th century jewelry, now 21st century jewelry. We also have contemporary holloware because we like being able to tell a story in a very long arc. The way someone like Paul Revere is thinking about making an object and thinking about marketing himself is related to how someone graduating from SUNY New Paltz or RISD are thinking about how to make an object and how to market themselves. Often it’s the same material, the same hammers, the same anvils. So, it’s nice to show those continuities and then to bring in how every generation treats this material slightly differently. They have their own ideas and their own technologies.
So, the Susan Grant Lewis Collection is a very experimental work. She has said she doesn’t like stones, so you’re not going to see a lot of gem setting and a lot of diamonds and rubies set in gold. There’s nothing wrong with them, but she’s more interested in people who are more out there, thinking about how you turn 3D printing into art or how you use found materials and construct narratives and make things that are more unexpected.
Sharon: I just want to interrupt you a minute. SUNY New Paltz is the New York State University at New Paltz?
John: State University of New York at New Paltz. Sorry, I gave you the shorthand.
Sharon: I know RISD is the Rhode Island Institute—
John: We’re going to have to submit an index on how to understand all my acronyms. Yes, RISD is the Rhode Island School of Design. There are a handful of institutions that have really strong jewelry departments and really strong metalworking departments, among them Rhode Island School of Design, State University of New York at New Paltz. You can add Cranbrook, which is outside of Detroit. There’s a whole group of them that are producing wonderful things.
Sharon: So, you studied decorative arts. What was your master’s in?
John: I was an art historian. I was very lucky in college to have a professor who believed in material culture, and I asked, “Do I have to write about paintings?” and she said, “No, you don’t.” I was very lucky to find that in college. Then I went to the Bard Graduate Center in New York. It was a much longer title, the Graduate Center for Material Culture and Design. It changes its name every two years. My master’s was in kind of a history of design and material culture. Then to get a Ph.D., there are very few programs that allow people to focus on material culture. Luckily, there are more with every passing year. When I was going to school, Yale is one that’s always focused on decorative arts and material culture. Boston University, their American studies program is a historically strong program that allows you to look at anything in the world as long as you can justify it. So, that’s where I went.
Sharon: Was jewelry like, “Oh yeah, and there’s jewelry also,” or was jewelry part of the story, part of the material culture, the material objects that you might look at? Was it part of any of this?
John: It was. I am at core a metals person. My master’s thesis was written on the 1939 New York World’s Fair, looking at one pavilion where Tiffany, Cartier and a few others had their big exhibition of silver, gold and, of course, jewelry. My entry into it was silver, but I had to learn all the jewelry as well. So, jewelry has always been part of my intellectual DNA, but it didn’t really flourish until I got to Yale, and that would be because of my colleague, Patricia Kane. She has a deep knowledge and interest in jewelry. We have done a few jewelry exhibitions in the past, and she has seen it as part of the collection that should grow. I arrived at Yale as a scrappy, young curator seeing what was going on in the landscape, and the jewelry is amazing. One of my first conferences I went to was a craft conference. I met jewelers and metalsmiths, and it’s a really approachable group. They’re very friendly. They like talking about their ideas. They like talking about their work, which is really rewarding.
Sharon: What were your ideas when you started as a curator? Did you have the idea, “Oh, I’d love to do exhibition work”? Curate has become such a word today. Everybody is curating something.
John: Yes, my head is in my hands right now. One of my pet peeves is that people talk about curating their lunches. The word curate actually means to care for, so I think about the religious role of a curate. It’s the same role. Our job is really to care for collections. If you care for your lunch, you can curate it, but if you’re just selecting it, please use a different word.
That idea of caring for objects, that’s what really excited me as a curator; the idea that so much of what we do is getting to know a collection, to research it, to make sure it’s being treated well, that things are stable when they go on loan, that when things need treatment, you work with a conservator or a scientist. I was really excited by that.
Over the course of my career, I’ve become much broader in my thinking. When you come out of graduate school, you’ve spent years focusing down deeper and deeper on one small, little subject. I was still very focused on a very narrow subject when I became a curator. That was early 20th century design. I love it dearly, but over the years my blinders have come off. I love American modernism. I also love 17th century metalwork. I love 21st century glass. You realize you love everything in the world around you.
Sharon: Would you say your definition of curate is still to care for? I’m thinking about when I polish my silver. I guess it’s part of curating in a sense, taking care of things.
John: Polishing your silver or your jewelry is actually one of the best ways to get to know it. We’re one of the few collections where it’s the curators who polish the silver. We hold onto that task because we don’t do it very often, because it’s better to leave things unpolished if you don’t have to. But when it comes time to polish something, the opportunity to pick something up, to turn it over, to feel the weight of it, to look closely at the marks and the details, that’s a really special thing, to get to know your objects so well by doing it. I give a hearty endorsement of silver polishing. It’s also a great emotional therapy if you’ve had a tough day. But to your question, I even more strongly believe that the role of a curator is someone to care for their collections.
Sharon: I really like that. It gives me a different perspective.
John: Yeah, because what we’re doing is not just physical care; it’s emotional care. In today’s culture we talk so much about self-care and these kinds of tropes, but that’s a lot of what we’re doing. We’re understanding history through our objects. We’re understanding the objects better to have something preserved for posterity, so it can tell future generations stories.
Sharon: That’s interesting. John, thank you so much. By the way, the exhibit ends in July, but the Susan Grant Lewin Collection is open through September. You’ll be busy, it sounds like.
John: “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power” closes July 10. The Susan Grant Lewin Collection of American Jewelry will be up through the fall. If you miss both of those or you’re in a place where you can’t get to New Haven, our collections are all online. All you have to do is go to our website, and you can just click through and spend a day looking at objects from the comfort of your living room.
Sharon: Yes, and very nice photos. As I said, I was looking at them before we started. I was very interested. What was that used for? Where did it come from? I guess being in Los Angeles, I’ll have to do that. I’ll be doing that from my living room. John, thank you so much. This is very, very interesting. I learned a lot and you have given me a lot to think about, so thank you so much.
John: Thank you for having me.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About John Stuart Gordon
John Stuart Gordon is the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. He grew up among the redwoods of Northern California before venturing East and receiving a B.A. from Vassar College, an M.A. from the Bard Graduate Center for Studies in the Decorative Arts, Design, and Culture, and a PH.D. from Boston University. He works on all aspects of American design and has written on glass, American modernism, studio ceramics, and postmodernism. His exhibition projects have explored postwar American architecture, turned wood, and industrial design. In addition, he supervises the Furniture Study, the Gallery’s expansive study collection of American furniture and wooden objects.
Additional Resources:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Perhaps more than any other metal or gem, gold brings out strong reactions in people (and has for all of recorded history). That’s what curator John Stuart Gordon wanted to explore with “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power,” a featured exhibition now on view at the Yale University Art Gallery. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why people have always been enchanted by gold; what he discovered while creating the exhibit; and why curation is more that just selecting a group of objects. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is John Stuart Gordon, the Benjamin Attmore Hewitt Curator of American Decorative Arts at the Yale University Art Gallery. The Yale University Museum and Gallery is the oldest art museum in the western hemisphere associated with the university. John is going to be telling us today about one of the gallery’s current feature exhibitions, “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power.” We’ll hear all about the exhibit and John’s journey today. John, welcome to the program.
John: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I apologize; my endowed title is a total mouthful.
Sharon: No, no. Who is Benjamin Attmore Hewitt?
John: Benjamin Attmore Hewitt was a clinical psychologist who helped bring the idea of statistical study to psychology, and he was also a collector. He was an avid collector of federal furniture, and he was associated with the art gallery. He, in the early 80s, was a guest curator on an exhibit on card tables that we did called “The Work of Many Hands.” In the incredibly small world department, I’m joining you from my living room, where if I turn and look out my window, I’m looking at the house that he used to live in across the street from me.
Sharon: Wow! Was that an old house that was built on federal plans or is it a modern house, the one he built or that that he has?
John: It is a beautiful, Georgian-style house. It’s quite gorgeous, and you can imagine it was perfect for his federal period collection.
Sharon: It sounds gorgeous.
John: It’s just one of those small-world things, right? I ended up moving across the street from person who endowed my job.
Sharon: Sounds gorgeous. So, tell us about your career path. Tell us how you ended up at the Yale University Art Gallery.
John: Yes, it was a dream job for me. I grew up in San Francisco. I grew up in a household that loved art, so I’m one of those lucky people that grew up from childhood thinking art isn’t scary; art isn’t strange; art is something to be enjoyed. I always knew I wanted to be in the art world somehow. I went to Vassar College in Poughkeepsie for the history of art program. When I graduated, I didn’t know what I wanted to do, but my first job was at Christie’s auction house, and that was an amazing experience. You see everything when you work in an auction house. It’s the fabulous things that get the headlines in the paper, but it’s everything else that gives you an education. That was an incredible training for my eye.
I’m a slow thinker. I like taking my time. I like spending time with objects. The constant hustle and bustle of the auction world was a little too much for me, so I went to grad school. I went to the Bard Graduate Center in New York and got my master’s. Then I had an internship at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. One of my colleagues there, the curator Amelia Peck, once said that if you would like a job at one of the great collections, you need a Ph.D. So, I said, “O.K.,” and I went to Boston University for a Ph.D. in American Studies.
The whole time I was thinking, “I want to get a Ph.D. so I can get a job at a place like the Yale University Art Gallery,” because its collection is legendary. It was the collection that so many of my professors used when they were teaching their survey courses. It was a collection I knew, and it was my aspirational job. One day while I was studying for my orals, my college professor called me and said, “A job has opened up at the Yale University Art Gallery. You need to apply for it.” Being a grad student, I was like, “Oh, I’m a little busy right now. Maybe next week,” and she was like, “John, don’t be stupid. These jobs don’t come up very often. You really need to apply.” I was very lucky. I got the job. That was 15 years ago, and I have been there ever since.
The collection is extraordinary. The museum was founded in 1832. It was one of the oldest museums in the country. Its American decorative arts collection formed very early on but really got going in 1930, so it’s also a very old collection. In the 1970s, one of the former curators, Charles Montgomery, felt it needed to go clear up to the present. So, our collection really spans centuries, and with that kind of span, you never get tired.
Sharon: It does. I was looking at your exhibit of gold online and I’m going, “Oh my god, this is going back.” I was looking at the gold collar you have and I thought, “This is really old.” What was that? The 3rd or 5th century or something like that? I can’t even remember.
John: The museum’s collections are encyclopedic. It goes from ancient Babylon up to the present day. Luckily, my slice of it is just the American, which is enough of a handful. There are two of us in our department, Patricia Kane and myself, and between the two of us, we need to cover pre-contact to the present in every medium. So, it’s enough to make your head spin some days.
Sharon: What is it about the decorative arts that attracted you as opposed to another area of history that you could also go into museums for?
John: That’s a great question. I loved the idea that decorative arts are like a lens into our world. Everything we make and own is a lens, but decorative arts have a way of telling you stories about the way we used the technology that went into making them, what a particular culture or a time period found important, as you make objects to fulfill needs and to fulfill aspirations. I loved the idea that you could take anything from a necklace or a teapot or a chair, and if you look at it enough ways, you could know a lot about the goals and dreams and technologies and resources of a given time period. I loved that idea, reverse-engineering culture through objects.
Sharon: That’s interesting, yes. How did the gold exhibit come about? Was that something you and Patricia had been thinking about, or was that a directive from on high? How did that come about?
John: The gold exhibition came about because of the pandemic, to be completely honest. Two years ago, the museum closed down, like many museums did at the beginning of the pandemic, and our exhibition calendar went out the window. Loans were cancelled, exhibitions were cancelled, and the director of the Yale University Art Gallery, Stephanie Wiles, put out a call for in-house exhibitions, exhibitions we could work on in our spare time. We didn’t know how long this was going to last. We thought we were going be home for a few weeks, and she wanted exhibitions that would be easy to slot into the calendar when the museum reopened and that would really shine a light on our collections, because those would be easier for the curators to research.
When I arrived at Yale in 2006, sitting on the shelf above my desk was a slim, little catalogue to an exhibition called “American Gold” that was done in 1963. I loved that little catalogue. I read it many times. I loved the material. Much of the material was drawn from Yale’s collections because Yale has one of the strongest collections of early American gold. I thought, “Someday, maybe I’ll revisit this.” It seemed amazing that no one had revisited this idea of gold since the 1960s because so much had changed about we think about the world, how we think about objects, what kind of theoretical models we use, and I thought I would do that exhibition at some point in the distant future. Then when our director said, “Are there are any ideas out there?” I said, “O.K., maybe I could do this now.” I suggested it, and it was a real treat. So, it was something that grew out of a spontaneous need but became a wonderful, wonderful research project.
Sharon: So, the objects for the most part are taken from your collection as opposed to loans, O.K. Tell us about the exhibit “Gold in America: Artistry, Memory, Power.” Tell us more about the whole exhibit. What do you want people to learn from it?
John: I was fascinated by the idea that gold is so compelling and so entrancing. There is something about this material that has been fascinating to humans for millennia. You think about the Egyptian pharaohs with their coffins covered in gold. Gold is the reason for so many wars and invasions, and all this is a sign of status. What is it about this material that has so much weight? I started talking to many of my colleagues, asking about the gold in their department, and we realized we could do a global show. It could be gigantic. It started getting away from me, and I realized, “O.K., let’s just focus on one very narrow portion of this global story. We’ll just focus on colonial American experience.”
As I started looking at those objects, I was struck by something rather uncanny. In the history of decorative arts, most objects are anonymous. We don’t know who made them. We don’t know who owned them. We don’t know how they traveled through time. With metalwork, we do tend to know a bit more because there are makers’ marks. There’s a whole history of guild systems that are looking at the purity of metals, and with gold we know even more information. I think probably more than almost any other material, we know who made gold objects and who owned them, and it’s because they often are inscribed or engraved somehow, or family histories come down with them. I found that so fascinating. That became the structure for the show, really thinking about these objects that have histories and why they were owned, why they were made, why they were cherished, thinking about this important material and how it intersects with human life over the span of a few centuries. That’s what I want visitors to take away.
Most people think—well, we can actually do this right now. Sharon and everyone listening, just to yourself, think of three words that come to mind immediately when I say gold. Free associate. What are those words that come to mind? Sharon, I’m going to put you on the spot. What three words come to mind?
Sharon: It’s like a blue elephant. What do I think? Shiny, valuable and decorative. In terms of jewelry, I think decorative. Those are the words that come to mind.
John: Shiny, valuable, decorative. I asked this question of a lot of people. Everyone I met for a while got that question, and value came up a lot. Then there were a lot of judgment terms, things like beauty or tacky. They were either positive or negative terms. People have an emotional, visceral reaction to gold. What I want people who visit the show to do is to move beyond those initial associations. We’re drawn to it because it’s valuable and we think it’s beautiful, or we’re skeptical of it because we think it might be gaudy. But I want them to really look at the objects and learn why someone might own something or why someone might want an object made out of this material. It’s to move beyond those initial words into words about legacy and heritage or patriotism or pride, to get to that second layer. It’s to let people know O.K., I’m going to think twice about what a gold ring might symbolize because I’ve looked at a gold ring that was all about mourning and commemorating the dead, or I’ve looked at something like a gold spoon that seemed a little flashy, but we know it was made by a Huguenot craftsman escaping religious persecution in New York, yet it was owned by someone who made their money selling slaves. Ideas of freedom and persecution are wrapped up in this material. There are so many stories that, once you start asking the objects, the stories come back to you in a way that I hope makes people pause when they leave the museum and see something else in their life. “Oh, that’s an interesting idea.”
Sharon: I think what strikes me is the fact that when you’re talking about gold, artistry, memory and power over the years, the wars that have been fought, I think of the Aztecs and Incas, where it was so cherished. We talked a little about this. Material culture, material studies. You’ll have to explain the difference. That sounds like something I didn’t grow up hearing. Maybe because you’re in that world, it’s something you’ve heard about for a long time. But what is material culture and material studies, and how does it relate to this?
John: That is such a big question. I’ll try to do some honor to it. The idea of material culture as an academic field—and I’m sorry; I have to put on my dorky academic for a second—but the idea of material culture really came out in the 1960s and 1970s with this larger idea of a new history, a way of looking at the reinterpretation of historical sources, historical stories, questioning who has the right to tell history. It was a way to get away from just looking at the histories of wars and rulers, documenting dead white men written by more dead white men. Material culture is a way of looking holistically at the objects that are produced by a civilization and thinking about the everyday person or the person not on the throne. What can be learned from the things that are not just the dates of rules and wars? That field really transformed art history, history, American studies, anthropology, archaeology. It opened up various fields of study so that you could write an entire book about the development of the Coke bottle and have a valid historical discussion about everyday objects.
What’s been fascinating—I grew up in this world. To me, material culture is my language. I grew up being taught by people who were on the front wave of this, so I’m totally indoctrinated. In recent years, I’ve seen a subfield emerge just called material studies. It makes chuckle a bit because it’s like material culture with the culture taken out, which is probably not true, but it’s really just going into the actual “thinginess” of objects: thinking about the marble that a statue was carved from, or thinking about the wood used to make a chair and diving deep into this elemental level of what the material of our world is, where it comes from and what stories it tells.
In terms of gold, your mentioning the Incas is, I think, a rather important reference, because where was the gold coming from? If we take an Inca material studies approach to this, we think about how, for many years, the Mediterranean in Europe, they weren’t reusing and melting down and recycling the gold that was coming out of a very limited number of mines. Then suddenly, the Spanish discover or stumble across the New World, and they see these cities with temples filled with gold and palaces filled with gold, and they start looting them. As the conquistadors are conquering Central and South America, they’re stripping the gold out, and then that gold is being melted down and being sent back to Europe. What does it mean to have this material that’s so inherently fraught with conflict?
What does it mean for a silversmith in Boston in the 18th century? He’s sitting on the edge of an empire working a small amount of gold that’s incredibly valuable because he has to get it from London. He’s aware that the Spanish have all this access to gold through the New World, and it’s circulating around him. Then how does all of this change when gold is discovered at Sutter’s Mill in California in 1849, and suddenly there’s a whole new and incredibly large source of gold? It’s augmented by further strikes in Colorado, and the West begins creating more gold. Think about this material, how its rarity is tied to conquest and imperial control.
There are some scientists who have been thinking, “Can we do tests on material to find out if there are little isotopes in the metal that can tell you whether the ring you’re wearing today is gold that was from Northern California or from Afghanistan? Can we begin to map out the world and map out trade routes all based on scientific inquiry and matching scientific testing with archival research?” Your very quick dive into material culture versus material studies, it’s endlessly fascinating.
Sharon: I know people get their doctorates in material studies around things like that. I should have asked you this at the beginning. Did you consider yourself an artist when you grew up with all this art? Before art history, were you creative? Were your parents in the creative end of the arts or were they teaching?
John: Being an artist was option number one, and I pursued that. Making art was a really important part of my childhood and developing a sense of identity. Then I learned about art history. I just loved art history, and I had to make that decision: would I go to art school or would I go to a liberal arts college? For me, art history won. I loved being able to parse out these stories and to look at objects and paintings and sculptures and think about all the different references. But having that history of making, I think, is very important. I have a lot of empathy for the skill and the creativity that goes into making.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Guðbjörg Kristín Ingvarsdóttir
Guðbjörg Kristín Ingvarsdóttir is a goldsmith, jewelry designer and co-founder of the award-winning sustainable jewelry brand Aurum, Iceland's leading jewelry brand.
Guðbjörg studied goldsmithing at Copenhagen Technical College, completing the journeyman’s examination in 1993. She then completed the master craftsman examination in goldsmithing at Reykjavík Technical College in 1994, subsequently returning to Copenhagen to study jewelry design at the Institute for Precious Metals. She ran the jewelry workshop Au-Art in Copenhagen from 1996 to 1999 in collaboration with others.
In 1999, Guðbjörg returned to Iceland and founded the design and jewelry brand Aurum. Her designs have attracted much attention worldwide and she has taken part in many international design exhibitions, both as a solo designer and as part of a group. She was awarded first prize in the jewelry competition "Spirit of the North" in St. Petersburg in 2000; received the DV Cultural Award in Reykjavík for art design in 2002; and received the Icelandic Visual Arts Award for design in 2008. In 2011, Aurum received the Njarðarskjöldur award for Best Tourist Shop of the Year and in 2015 the Grapevine Shop of the Year award. Aurum has been recommended by several international publications such as Timeout, Conde Nast Traveler, Elle, GQ and Lonely Planet.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Erika 5: We launched the Erika collection to commemorate our 20th anniversary, Erika encapsulates the spirit of Aurum's origins.
"Picture a picnic in the Icelandic countryside. A young girl fascinated by the delicate flowers, collecting them for her mother. And writing a fairy tale in her diary about her hopes and dreams. 20 years later, Guðbjörg has drawn on these indelible memories for inspiration in creating the very special Erika Collection."
Swan 455 and Swan 456: Aurum by Guðbjörg's range of luxurious 14kt gold plated and 925 silver cufflinks and wedding bands in 14kt or solid 18kt gold, are perfect for a wedding day, civil partnership or to mark an anniversary or engagement.
Landscape - LAX collection: Quoted from Gudbjörg: "I love living in
Iceland; all my family lives here, and my design work is continually
inspired by the natural environment of the country."
Pakkningar: We have resolved to introduce eco-friendly thinking into every aspect of the AURUM brand. For example, we only use recycled precious metals. Our jewellery is made here in our workshop in Iceland, and we make our gift boxes to look like the stones found on the beaches of the Western Fjords, using paper from mulberry trees, which has little to no effect on the ecosystem because the trees are not cut down – the paper is made from the leaves.
Transcript:
Coming from Iceland, a country known for its pristine environment, it’s no surprise that Guðbjörg Kristín Ingvarsdóttir founded her jewelry brand on the principle of sustainability. Growing up in the remote countryside, she still turns to nature for inspiration when designing award-winning pieces for her global brand Aurum. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like growing up in Iceland; why Aurum uses only lab-grown diamonds and recycled metal; and what her advice is for young jewelers who want to start their own brands. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Guðbjörg, one of the most well-known jewelry designers in Iceland. She’s the founder and head of the jewelry enterprise Aurum. Her flagship store is in Reykjavík, but it sells in retail outlets throughout the world. Her firm is known and respected for its commitment to sustainability. We’ll hear more about her jewelry journey today. Guðbjörg, welcome to the program.
Guðbjörg: Thank you.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your journey. It looks like a pretty impressive operation that you’re running. How did you come to that?
Guðbjörg: I completed my German examination at Copenhagen Polytechnic in 1993. After that, I further studied jewelry design at Copenhagen Institute for Hermitage for precious materials in Copenhagen. After my study in plastics and doing some jewelry work in Copenhagen, together with four of my colleagues, I started to develop my jewelry further. The time I spent there, it gave me time to work on pieces for exhibitions. That start in Denmark gave me a lot of influence. It’s learning with precious metals as well as starting an account. The craft tradition is very strong and the design scene is very strong in Denmark, and they encouraged me to develop my ideas further, because I received a grant when I was over there. I got the time to develop the jewelry. In 1999, I returned to Iceland. The same year, I opened my design company where I could further develop my jewelry. My first collection started when I came back to Iceland.
Sharon: When did you decide this is what you wanted to do, that you wanted to do jewelry? Were you doing it when you were a teenager? Were you making jewelry as a child?
Guðbjörg: That’s kind of an interesting story, because I did not grow up in a typical artistic environment. I grew up in a lively house with two generations living together. My grandmother made a lot of things by hand, beautiful clothing with her sewing machine, and my mother owned her own clothing store, so I was always involved with fashion at the time. I enjoyed sewing, and I got my first sewing machine which I was 13 years old. When I was 17 or 18, I went on an exchange to the U.S., and I spent a year on Bainbridge Island in Washington. I took all the art classes I could take because I didn’t have any at home. I lived in a small town, so we didn’t have any art classes. I decided to take everything I could at the high school on Bainbridge Island. One of the classes was a jewelry class with a great teacher. After that, I found my passion, so I couldn’t think about anything else to do. When I came back to Iceland in 1998, I just wanted to be a goldsmith. That was the story to it.
Sharon: Wow! First of all, what does Aurum mean? How did you come up with the name for your business?
Guðbjörg: It’s a beautiful name. Aurum means gold in Latin. It’s also the most precious metal, so that was something I thought would work for my business. Aurum, for me, means ambition, understanding, responsibility, unity and mindfulness; that is what I think of when I run my business. It’s an equal opportunity company; everybody has worth in the company.
Sharon: Wow! For those listening, I’d like to spell it. It’s A-u-r-u-m.
Guðbjörg: Yes, it is.
Sharon: Aurum.
Guðbjörg: Yeah.
Sharon: You’ve won several design awards, and your business has appeared on the list of top jewelry places in Iceland. How did that come about? Did you enter a contest? How did they get to know you?
Guðbjörg: It was my first prize I got. It was a competition in South Petersburg. The name of it was Spirit of the North, and it was in the year 2000 when I was just starting off my business. That was a great honor for me, to get that award as a young jeweler starting off her own brand.
Sharon: Yes, I’m sure it is.
Guðbjörg: It helped a lot to get recognized in Iceland. Then I received a design award in Iceland in 2008 for five of my collections. Aurum itself has gotten some awards, for the best jewelry brand in 2000 and ethical brand of the year from the Eluxe awards in 2021. Through the years, we have got some nominations and awards.
Sharon: How did you decide to start your emphasis on sustainability in everything you do with the jewelry? Can you tell us about that and how you came to it?
Guðbjörg: First, having grown up in Iceland, it’s this sustainable country. From the start, I have only used recycled, refined precious metals. Recently, I thought I would go into lab-grown diamonds because I want to have responsibility in every step of the company.
Sharon: So you use lab-grown diamonds?
Guðbjörg: Yeah. Also, if you think about Iceland, our production is entirely based on Iceland. Iceland generates 100 percent of its energy from its resources, so there’s no place in Iceland to do that, to pick up things like the packaging. I’ve been using the same packaging from the start. It is a special packaging made from mulberry paper. This is the best paper from the mulberry tree because it does not interfere with the ecosystem, as not a single tree has to be cut down. All the leaves are used while the tree continues to grow. From the start, I wanted to use that. They are making it especially for me. I went to the company in Iceland and found the stone it was made after. The box is modeled after the stone. I picked it myself.
Sharon: You have beautiful boxes. They look like rocks.
Guðbjörg: Yeah, they look like rocks.
Sharon: You can tell, yes.
Guðbjörg: Yeah. They are made after the stone I picked myself.
Sharon: Oh, wow. Tell us about your clients. Are they all from Iceland? You sell online, so I assume they’re all over the world.
Guðbjörg: Yes, I’m selling all over the world. I’ve been lucky through the years; I have these great Icelandic customers that come again and again into the store. It’s an honor to be selling to the U.S. A lot of customers come from the U.S., from Australia. I’m getting more and more from Canada and Europe. We have clients all over the world, also from Asia. I think it’s because people connect with the story I want to tell. Usually when I start to develop my collection, I already have the story behind it, and then I develop the jewelry from there. People connect with it. When they come to us, when they see us and when they come into my store, they can feel it; the atmosphere is just there.
Sharon: It seems like all of your jewelry is inspired by the Icelandic environment or things you see.
Guðbjörg: Yes, it is. I have been inspired very much by Icelandic nature. You can really see it when you look at my jewelry. My most favorite part is the area where I grew up. I grew up where there is this very tall mountain. I spent my time on the mountain skiing when I was a child, and in the summertime, I spent my time in the countryside. I go there every summer and I get this peace. It’s a small house I’m staying at, with no energy, nothing. It’s just the sea and the mountain and we have a place there. There I get the peace to develop my ideas, and the energy there provides me with creative ideas and space. It’s also the space. It feels like you are alone there. For me, there’s nothing better than losing myself in this wilderness, sensing the beauty and experiencing the forms while lying there. It takes these fantastic shapes, and then I turn them into little treasures. This is mostly where I get my ideas. Of course, I have worked with some museums in Iceland and worked with some artists such as a sculptor. I have made jewelry after her glass sculptures. I have also worked on other ideas, but nature is the most inspiring for me.
Sharon: It sounds like your head must be full of ideas because you’re surrounded by such beauty there. I can see how it would be an endless source of inspiration waking up in the countryside. I was just in Iceland and besides your store, I visited the place you mentioned. I will never be able to pronounce it. To somebody like me in Los Angeles, it’s beautiful, but it’s also in the middle of nowhere.
Guðbjörg: Yeah, it’s all this nature. Later I noticed, when I started my studies, how influenced I was by my growing up in this place. It was quite isolated when I was living there; not so much now, but at that time it was.
Sharon: It still seems fairly remote. That must have been a shock—when you came to Bainbridge Island to study, how was that coming from Iceland?
Guðbjörg: That was special because I had gone once after Iceland. I didn’t speak much English, so it was a challenge, but I stayed with a wonderful family that helped me get in world with everything there. It’s a beautiful island so I was lucky. They were really artistic. He was an architect, and they were involved with acting. I went to a Shakespeare play and all that; I saw my first ballet in Seattle. I was excited with the new creative things over there. It was very special coming from such a small town.
Sharon: How do you think people who visit, especially from the states, what’s their stereotype of Iceland? People have said to me, “Was there ice all over the ground?” How do people see Iceland? Are they surprised when they talk to you about Iceland when they’re visiting?
Guðbjörg: When I went in 1988, 1989 to the U.S., people didn’t know anything about Iceland, but now people have the internet, so they know a lot. I think people know a lot today when they come into the store. Maybe they get surprised when they go out in the countryside to smaller towns and so on, but Reykjavík is very close to our city.
Sharon: Yeah, it is.
Guðbjörg: With fashion and all, we are really up to date with everything, I would say.
Sharon: Iceland’s become the place to visit.
Guðbjörg: Yes, it’s a beautiful country. I understand because I want to be in Iceland during the summertime. There’s almost nowhere else I would like to spend my summer because it’s such a beauty. We go fishing and hiking. We do a lot of things here.
Sharon: It’s gorgeous. When I looked at it on the map, it was so small. What would your advice be to young jewelers, young designers? To me, it takes a lot of guts to come back to Iceland and say, “I’m going to start my jewelry company.” What would your advice be to people starting out?
Guðbjörg: It’s a challenge to do, but when I came back from Denmark, I wanted to show new ideas because I have a lot of jewelry business in Iceland. It’s to believe in yourself. What I have been doing, I always push myself further and develop new ideas. I never stop, actually. I’m always working because I love what I’m doing. I think that’s a big part of it, to like what you are doing. It’s always exciting to my mind, developing a new collection. It takes time. It sometimes takes a year, sometimes two years. Sometimes it has to be sitting on my desk for more than two years, then I get the idea how to work on it further. Sometimes it’s just a short time. It has always been important for me to push myself, to not be stuck in older ideas, to work on new ideas. That’s always exciting.
Sharon: I’m always impressed when I meet somebody who has a belief in themselves and the confidence to say, “O.K., I’m going to do this. I realize that are challenges and there are roadblocks, but this is what I want to do,” and push through it.
Guðbjörg: Yeah, I enjoy this journey. It has to be amazing, I think, because I wouldn’t be doing anything else other than this. Knowing that when you are 80 years old, that’s special. I think today because people have so many choices, it’s difficult to find what you want. I have three daughters: one is 24, one is 18 and one is eight, and everything is changing. It’s difficult for people to find their passion. I think it’s most difficult to find your passion and work on it. It takes time. Just give it time.
Sharon: That’s great advice. Thank you so much for sharing that. It’s been such a pleasure to talk with you.
Guðbjörg: You, too.
Sharon: I hope our paths will cross again soon.
Guðbjörg: You’re always welcome.
Sharon: Thank you so much.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for reading.
Thank you again! Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Nan Summerfield
Nan Summerfield joined Doyle New York as Director of the California office in Beverly Hills in 2014. Ms. Summerfield, a GIA Graduate Gemologist, has been in the appraisal and auction business for forty-two years.
Nan began her career at the Gemological Institute of America in New York as a Staff Gemologist in the GIA Laboratory and later as an Instructor in the Education Division, before spending thirteen years as a Vice President in the Jewelry Department at Sotheby’s, first in New York, then in Los Angeles. Nan continued to develop and direct Sotheby’s jewelry auctions in Beverly Hills for eight years. For twenty years before joining Doyle, she owned Summerfield’s, a successful firm in Beverly Hills that specialized in buying and selling estate jewelry.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
After more than four decades working in estate jewelry as a dealer and at auction houses, Nan Summerfield knows a thing or two about how to select the best jewelry. Now Senior Vice President of California Operations for the auction house Doyle, Nan joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the pros and cons of purchasing jewels from the major houses versus lesser-known jewelers; why the auction industry began to court private buyers in the 80s; and when it makes sense to take a risk on an unsigned piece. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Nan Summerfield, Senior Vice President of California Operations for the auction house Doyle. Welcome back.
I wanted to ask you about something you said earlier, when you said that Doyle had decided they wanted to get out there more and get more private clients.
Nan: It was Sotheby’s that wanted that.
Sharon: I’m sorry, Sotheby’s. That’s right. Was it by opening more offices?
Nan: No, at that point, when I had joined Sotheby’s, they’d already done a big expansion worldwide. They were well-established. That was in the early 80s. What they did, and what Bain & Company suggested doing, was to reach out to the private clients and start adding auctions in California again so their private clients could come in. They tried to demystify the process and be more transparent about how it worked and the commission structures, that sort of thing, and to really make a concerted effort. I think that may have been when we started advertising in Town & Country and magazines like that, that were geared toward bringing in the private clients. That’s when it started building, at that point in time.
Sharon: Why private clients? Were they bringing in pieces that were in their safe deposit boxes that you weren’t seeing?
Nan: No, we were actually looking for private clients as buyers. Up until that point, it had been almost exclusively dealers that bought at auction. That’s a whole other thing that was happening at that point. The dealers used to have what they called rings, and they would agree not to bid against each other in the auction. Then following the auction, they would have what they call the knockout, where they’d bid amongst each other and decide who gets what piece and that sort of thing. New York found out about that and outlawed it.
They clamped down on it, but we’d always gotten jewelry from private clients. Most typically, I would say, it had been the estates that had come in and been sold at auction. With the new private clients, we wanted to bring them in as buyers but also as sellers, which they had been, but on a quieter exposure. It was good, but I think it was geared toward bringing the private clients in as buyers.
Sharon: I love the word you used before, which was helping people decide what they wanted to have for their jewelry wardrobe, as opposed to their jewelry collection. I’m still trying to find that elusive definition of what collector is. When you talk about the jewelry wardrobe, can you talk about that? Is it that they have earrings, they have a ring? How do you look at the wardrobe?
Nan: I would say most people typically start with the basics, maybe their engagement ring. They might buy a pair of diamond-studded earrings and maybe get a diamond bracelet along the way. Then they go through life, and they’re making a little more money and have a more sophisticated lifestyle. They start building it as you have your basics in your wardrobe. For example, I had diamonds that go with everything. In my case, I started buying things that were color coordinated. I love blues and greens, so I bought things that with emeralds or sapphires. I love pinks and purples. I have a fabulous Raymond Yard bubblegum 20 carat pink tourmaline ring that I love. I bought that way back in New York a million years ago.
Anyway, with the wardrobe, it really is like getting dressed. What are you going to wear? You want earrings, a necklace, a brooch perhaps, a bracelet and rings. You want things that work together well. With necklaces, we can get a lot of variation with what’s in trend. Right now, we’ve seen a lot of long necklaces. The long Alhambra chains that are Van Cleef or long pendant necklaces have been the trend where we were. Back in the 80s, the collar necklaces were what everybody was wearing. I think we’re going to start moving back into that trend in the next few years, but it’s always changing. Then the trends also change from white metals to yellow metals, and the swing happens in 10 or 15-year cycles. In the jewelry wardrobe, it’s everything from color-coordinating and if gold is in or not.
I also personally have nighttime jewelry, so if I’m going out to an event or black-tie thing, I’ve got platinum and diamonds or colored stone jewelry that’s dressier. Then the daytime jewelry is a little more casual, but it also depends a lot on where you live. It’s building what you personally love and what you’re drawn to. It’s a piece-by-piece adventure, and it’s fun. It really is. It’s exciting when you’ve been looking for the perfect pair of earrings to go with the necklace and bracelet you have, and then you finally find it. It’s fun, and it’s always treasure hunting. If you’re a true collector, I think you never stop collecting.
Sharon: I’d say that’s probably true. It’s interesting, some of the things you said. Yes, your style changes; you become more sophisticated. You say, “Well, that was me 30 years ago, but that’s not me today.”
Nan: Exactly.
Sharon: It’s interesting to think about it more in a wardrobe sense, as opposed to, “I already have a Berlin iron, so I want to add that to my collection.” Actually, my Berlin iron sits in my drawer because I’m afraid to wear it.
Nan: That’s a very rare category too, the Berlin iron. It’s such an interesting segment of history.
Sharon: Yes, some people would probably die, but I don’t mind adjusting or modifying even a signed piece. I want to fit me. I want it to work for me. The next person can decide if they don’t want the soldering I had done. I feel like that’s fine. I don’t give a hell if other people feel that way. It has to fit you, right?
Nan: Absolutely, but if you have to alter a piece, hopefully you can do it in a way where it might be able to be put back together. If you have a necklace you want shorter that has some links come out of it, or rings, which so often need to be sized to be worn, yeah. If you have a good jeweler that does it, then it should be less detrimental.
Sharon: You talked about the fact that you left having your own business as a dealer, which you were in for 20 years.
Nan: 20 years. It was wonderful.
Sharon: Wow! And that things had changed, and that was one of the reasons you thought maybe it was time to go back into the auction house. What changed in that time?
Nan: It was very interesting, because as I mentioned earlier, probably the first 10 or 15 years I had my own business, it was so easy to find jewelry and beautiful things. I used to go to the flea markets, I’d hit all the tradeshows and I had private clients bringing me things all the time. What changed everything was the entrance of the internet right around 2000. In the beginning it was new, and people were still trying to figure out to how to navigate it. Then, probably in the last five to eight years I was in the jewelry business, we started seeing an increase in people doing things online.
You had different platforms. I think eBay was one of the first to start selling things, and then 1stDibs came along. There were various platforms like that, where people started selling their jewelry online as opposed to bringing it to the tradeshows or the antique shows to sell. I think that was when it really started shifting, because we started finding less. When we would travel and go looking for things, whether it was at the flea markets or at the Hillsboro in the Bay Area, the antique shows or the big Miami show, it was just harder to find.
It was an interesting period and I recognized that. Really, the way it happened with Doyle is that they reached out to me. They were interested in opening up a west coast division, and I had worked with the woman that is the head for jewelry for Doyle in New York. She and I had worked together at Sotheby’s, so we had known each other for a long time. They reached out to me to see if I would be interested in opening up the west coast for them. They felt a jewelry person was probably the best direction to go because jewelry has a very broad reach. Everybody has jewelry. Not everybody collects old master paintings or impressionists or antique furniture or silver or whatever, but jewelry tends to cast a pretty wide net with people. Everybody has a mother or a daughter, somebody that has jewelry or loves jewelry. It was very timely that they reached out to me because my business was fine, but I could sense the changes that were happening.
I loved the 13 years I had spent at Sotheby’s. The auction world is really fun and interesting. You have such a huge volume of property that goes through your hands, and you meet the most interesting people that are both buyers and consigners. I find, like what I said before about working for Sotheby’s, is that in the auction houses, generally the specialists are very generous with their knowledge and share it. In the trade, people are very close to the vest, because knowledge equates to money. If you know why something is special, you don’t want to tell somebody else because you might lose your advantage.
Anyway, for all these different reasons, the time was right, so we went back and forth, and I ended up going onboard with Doyle. It started in May or June, I think, and I ended up signing a contract with them in October and haven’t looked back. It’s so much fun, and we’ve had fabulous success on the west coast. It's interesting, because Doyle very much reminds me of the way Sotheby’s used to be. It was like a family. At that point, John Meriam was the Chairman of Sotheby’s, and he was such a wonderful man. Doyle has that same not-corporate feeling you have in so many companies these days, but more of a family that works there. It’s been a wonderful experience; it really has.
Sharon: It sounds like it. You mentioned the office is moving. Doyle’s office in Beverly Hills is moving from the upper floor to a ground floor.
Nan: Yes, we’re very excited. We originally took over my old office that I had in Beverly Hills, and our business has just grown. It was again where the stars aligned. We’d opened a street-front gallery in Palm Beach, Florida, and New York was interested in opening a west coast branch in Beverly Hills on the ground floor. The head of our company had been out looking at colleges with her daughters over Labor Day weekend. They walked around Beverly Hills and noticed that a jewelry store in Beverly Hills had a sign that he was moving, and the space was available. She asked me to take a look at the space, which I did. He was so nice and took me on a whole tour and showed me that it was an enormous, beautifully built-out space. It was a small fortune in rent, but I went back.
As I was walking up to look at his space, there was a space downstairs in our building on Camden Drive, and it was closed. It was a gentlemen’s clothing store, and they had a sign on the door that it was closed. I thought, “Well, let me go peek in the window and see what this space looks like, because this could be good for us.” As I was looking in the window with my hands up on either side of my eyes, one of my old neighbors from when I was on the penthouse floor in our building was walking by, and he said, “Hey, Nan, what’s going on?” I said, “Well, we’ve outgrown our space and we’re exploring options.” He said, “A friend of mine has this place. You need to call him,” and he gave me his telephone number. After I had gone to look at this other space and videotaped it and sent it to New York, I called him up. He was the nicest man, and he told me he wanted to open another store. He had a son that was in New England in a cute little town, and his wife told him that if he was going to open a new store, he would have to get rid of another one. He had been through the pandemic, which had been stressful for everybody, so the space wasn’t even on the market.
I had spoken to our real estate broker, and he had said, “Nan, I’m sorry. I know New York asked you to look. There’s nothing on the ground floor level in the triangle. You’re going to have to go south of Beverly,” which in mind is no go; we only want to be in the triangle. We ended up signing a lease on that space. Another thing that makes it really wonderful is that we are located on Camden Drive, and two doors up from us is Christie’s. There’s Mr. Chow’s, a restaurant, and Sotheby’s is on the other side. So, we’re on auction row for the entire west coast. We’re thrilled about that too, because the auction house is on New Bond Street in England, the way when you’re doing a road trip and all the fast food and gas stations are clustered together. It’s sort of one-stop shopping. It feels like the jewelry district in New York. When you have similar businesses together, it drives business for everybody. So, we’re very excited.
Sharon: That’s great. It sounds exciting. Would a private client bring a piece to you and say, “What do you think about this? What can I get for it at auction?” and then go to Christie’s or Sotheby’s? It seems like people would be walking the street saying, “What does everybody think? How much can I get for it?” What do you think about that?
Nan: Yes, I think that is certainly a part of the equation. Both Sotheby’s and Christie’s tend to be geared to try to get the very high-priced items. That leaves a lot of room in the mid-range and below where they won’t handle property. We handle everything, from soup to nuts. We feel like when we’re handling estates or clients, we don’t want to cherry pick their best things and tell them, “You’re on your own.” We try to accommodate our clients, so we have different levels of sale. I think a lot of times it’s about where you feel the most comfortable when you go and meet with different auction houses or specialists. I think it’s a very personal decision for people.
Sharon: How many times a year does Doyle have jewelry auctions on the west coast?
Nan: We were doing jewelry auctions up until the pandemic. When we went into the pandemic, everything changed. We’d already had our May sale put together, photographed and catalogued and everything, when we shut down. It happened so quickly that we were scrambling. We had to ship all the jewelry to New York. At that point, we implemented quite a few changes in how we did auctions going into the pandemic. We recognized that when people are locked in from the pandemic, their only way of communicating with the world was their telephone, their television or their computer. Gone were the days that people could go wandering into a store and buy what they wanted.
So, with that came a number of changes we made. We decided to make smaller sales. We typically had had about seven or eight jewelry auctions a year, and they would run maybe 500 lots for sale. We realized that people were looking at the sales on their phones and they would glaze over at 500 lots. So, we recalibrated it and started doing more auctions but smaller sales, about 200 lots per sale, which is more manageable.
We also implemented another change where we started photographing the jewelry being worn. I will tell you that in the 20 years I had my own business, one of the most frustrating things for me was when I bought at auction. I remember buying a pair of earrings, and when they arrived, they were enormous. I thought they would be the size of not even a quarter. Having a sense of scale when you’re buying online is very important, so we started having our shots photographed on some of our younger staff members—they’re more photogenic—so people would have a sense of scale and could see how big that pendant necklace is, or how the earrings look on the ear or the ring on the hand. That was also very helpful for people to bid online. They got more information and had a better sense of what they would be buying before they had to commit to it.
Now we’re doing auctions more than monthly. We usually run an auction pretty much every month. There are a number of months where we’ll have two or three auctions at different levels.
Sharon: Online or in person?
Nan: The way it’s structured, we have important sales, fine sales and online jewelry sales. The online sales are the less expensive things, group plots generally, things that are under $1,000. There will be some signed pieces. The online sales are handled only online. There’s no public auction that goes on. You can bid on your computer in real time. You can bid up to that time. If you bid on something just before it closes and somebody comes in and outbids you, it gives you another couple of minutes to go back and raise your bid, so it’s structured a little bit differently than our fine and our important sales. The online sales are virtually every month.
The fine and the important sales, now that we’ve come out of the pandemic, we’re doing public exhibitions. We’re doing previews in New York, and we try to do the previews in California as well. Once we open our gallery space, we should be getting all the fine and the important for previews for our California clients.
When people want to bid on the auctions, they have four different ways they can buy. They can come in person to the auction in New York and bid there. They can arrange to telephone bid. If they call us ahead of time, we’ll set it up. On the day of the auction, we’re all roped in on our computers, on Zoom calls, on the phone calling clients saying, “O.K., I’m going to be bidding with you on this lot that’s coming up in four lots,” and then we bidders sit there in the room. They can also leave an absentee written bid saying, “I like this bracelet. The estimate is $3,000-$4,000. I really love it. I’m going to bid up to $4,500.” Then we will bid on their behalf against the competition until there’s no competition, but if they get outbid, they won’t get it.
The last way, which has become so popular, is that people can actually bid on their computers in real time. Once the auction starts, if they go to Doyle.com, at the top there will be a banner that says, “Join the live auction now.” You click that. You can see the auctioneer. You can see the piece of jewelry. You can see the estimate and description, and then you can see if the bids are going. It’s a constantly scrolling thing. An auctioneer will be calling, “Yes, we have a bid at $8,500 from Nan in California. We’ve got a bid at $9,000 in the room” and so forth. So, people have four different ways they get on those sales.
One of the important things that’s good for people to remember when they’re bidding at auction is that, as is the standard in the entire auction business, there is a buyer’s premium. The buyer’s premium is on top of the hammer price it sells for, and it ranges from 25% to 30% depending on the auction house. At Doyle, it’s 26%. It’s really fun. It’s very easy. We also do condition reports on everything so people can see what the quality of the diamonds is, what the size of the ring is, how long the bracelet or the necklace is, how much it weighs. We give a lot of information on our auctions, which gives people more confidence in buying things. If they have extra questions, they can reach out to us and we will follow up with them and give them more detail.
Sharon: There are a lot of different ways, a lot of different perspectives. It is very interesting. Some of the reasons that seem to excite you make me say, “Forget it,” just because things are coming at you from so many different ways: online, in the room, on the phone, whatever.
Nan: I can see how it would seem overwhelming, but I would say choose the avenue that’s most comfortable for you. Just focus on that and let the rest of it fall away.
Sharon: That’s good advice. I know it’s the way of the world in terms of auctions, and the world has changed so much. Even as we’re talking, the jewelry world has changed so much.
Nan: Dramatically, it has.
Sharon: Thank you so much, Nan, for being with us today and telling us about it. I’ve learned a lot and it’s been really enjoyable. Thank you so much.
Nan: Sharon, thank you so much for inviting me. I really enjoyed it.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Nan Summerfield
Nan Summerfield joined Doyle New York as Director of the California office in Beverly Hills in 2014. Ms. Summerfield, a GIA Graduate Gemologist, has been in the appraisal and auction business for forty-two years.
Nan began her career at the Gemological Institute of America in New York as a Staff Gemologist in the GIA Laboratory and later as an Instructor in the Education Division, before spending thirteen years as a Vice President in the Jewelry Department at Sotheby’s, first in New York, then in Los Angeles. Nan continued to develop and direct Sotheby’s jewelry auctions in Beverly Hills for eight years. For twenty years before joining Doyle, she owned Summerfield’s, a successful firm in Beverly Hills that specialized in buying and selling estate jewelry.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
After more than four decades working in estate jewelry as a dealer and at auction houses, Nan Summerfield knows a thing or two about how to select the best jewelry. Now Senior Vice President of California Operations for the auction house Doyle, Nan joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the pros and cons of purchasing jewels from the major houses versus lesser-known jewelers; why the auction industry began to court private buyers in the 80s; and when it makes sense to take a risk on an unsigned piece. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Nan Summerfield, Senior Vice President of California Operations for the auction house Doyle. Nan has extensive jewelry experience, having worked with several major auction houses. In addition, for 20 years she had her business as a jewelry dealer specializing in estate jewelry. We’ll hear all about her own jewelry journey today. Nan, welcome to the program.
Nan: Thank you, Sharon. It’s great to be here.
Sharon: So glad to connect with you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. You’ve covered a lot of ground. Were you a child when you started liking it? How did you get into the jewelry profession?
Nan: I think I came out of the womb loving jewelry. When I was little girl, my favorite thing was to go through my grandmother’s jewelry and try things on and look at them. I was that child that when I would be out with my parents at a mall, I’d see a jewelry store and I’d put my fingerprints and nose print on the windows to look at all the jewelry. I think I was just born loving jewelry from the day I came out of the womb.
Sharon: Did you know you were going to go into jewelry? Did you think about making it? Did you want to sell it? Did you just want to be around it? To have it?
Nan: It’s so funny. I knew I always loved it, but I came back from a six-month backpack trip in Europe, and I had been invited to a Fourth of July party up at Lake Tahoe, where I was from. At that party, I was playing with a necklace my brother had given me with a small gold coin on it. This man that was at the party looked at me, and he said, “I sell jewelry like that. How would you like to work for me?” I thought, “Oh, my god, I love jewelry. I could actually work in it?” That’s how it all started. He turned out to be kind of flaky, but I credit him with giving me the introduction into the business.
Sharon: Flakey is a word. It’s serendipitous.
Nan: It certainly is. He veered off in other directions shortly after I got my introduction into the business, but I credit him with opening that door for me.
Sharon: From there, how did you segue into auction houses?
Nan: First, I had my own business for about a year. Through some people I met, I found out about the GIA. I applied and went to the GIA. When I finished, they offered me a job working for them in New York or Los Angeles. I thought, “Gosh, I’ve never been to New York. I’ve read all these books, like ‘The Catcher in the Rye’ and ‘The Great Gatsby.’” It sounded so romantic to me. I thought if I didn’t have a job, I wouldn’t move to New York, but if I had a job, why not? So, I moved back to New York, and I worked in the lab doing certificates on diamonds for a year. Then they asked me to be a permanent instructor in the education department. I switched over to education and taught the residence program, the one-week classes.
I feel very lucky because these strange coincidences happened that have led me to where I am. I had a colleague I was working with. He was a friend of mine, and he had taught the new head of the jewelry department all of these things. He had taken a one-week course with him at the GIA. He really liked my friend, and he offered him a job to work for Sotheby’s. But my friend had fallen in love with this girl in California, so he was moving out there. He said to this gentleman, “I can’t, but I’ve got the girl for you,” and he gave him my name and number. Then it all started. I went for an interview, they hired me, and I ended up spending eight years in New York with Sotheby’s. Then I wanted to move back to California, so things finally worked out well.
Part of what was happening at Sotheby’s at that time was that Al Taubman had hired Bain & Company, the consulting firm, to look at the jewelry department worldwide and see how they could develop it and bring in more private clients. That was very interesting point in auction, too, the shift from dealers to embracing private clients. One of the recommendations Bain had come back with was that we start doing jewelry auctions in California again. We had them before, in 1981. In the crash of 1981, they closed down the big gallery we had. Anyway, I spent eight years with Sotheby’s in California. It was a wonderful opportunity, and I had very generous people that I worked with.
One of the things I found was that when I worked at the GIA, I had a number of friends that went out and worked for estate jewelry dealers in the business, but they were very close to the vest about the information they had. They didn’t share why something was special, what made it important, what to look for. I was extremely fortunate because the other specialists that I worked with in New York were very generous with their knowledge. This is when the first reproductions of Deco and Edwardian were coming out, and they taught me so much. I’ll be forever grateful for them being so generous with their knowledge. That’s a long answer to your question.
Sharon: It’s an interesting answer. I’m still on the fact that you had your own business for a year before you started doing anything else. What were you doing? Were you buying and selling jewelry?
Nan: Yeah, exactly. The gentleman that first brought me into the business, he took me to a sort of buying center of jewelry, a building that had multiple levels and booths of people selling. I would go down and choose the things I liked and then bring them back to Tahoe, and then I would sell them to my friends.
Sharon: Wow! When you were talking about the auction houses, I never thought about the fact that some are selling to dealers, and some are more about developing private clients. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Nan: Yes, absolutely. Initially, when I first started there, it was almost entirely dealers that bought at auction. Another thing I look back on now is that when we would have viewings and dealers would be looking at the jewelry, it didn’t matter to them if something was Cartier or Van Cleef or Bulgari or any of the big names. It was, “Oh, that’s nice,” but they never paid a premium or saw it in a substantially more valuable way. That’s something that has dramatically changed from when I started to where I am today. As you know, anything that’s signed by the big houses is going to bring a big premium today.
During that period we had some private buyers, if I remember, but it was almost entirely dealers that were the buyers, and as I said, that started shifting. I think Al Taubman purchased Sotheby’s in the mid-80s, and that’s when he implemented these changes to make jewelry in the auction world more accessible to private clients and to demystify it. It was an interesting period. It was very transitional and very much a growth period in the auction world.
Sharon: Was Al Taubman a catalyst in terms of moving everybody to look at signed pieces? Did he care? What happened there?
Nan: No, that really wasn’t his thing. He was all about getting the auction world out to private clients worldwide, which is where we are today. It’s an enormous part of the auction market and the competition that we get. He was not focused on signed jewelry per se. I think that’s something that happened—really, I started seeing that more in the 90s and going into the 2000s. It’s been an upward trajectory since then with the really good names and the values they’re bringing.
Sharon: What do you think changed? What propelled that? What are your thoughts about why names are more important today?
Nan: I think it’s a combination of things. The really fine ones, Cartier, Van Cleef, Bulgari, Buccellati, David Webb, all of those have a level of quality you don’t always see in other jewelry companies. I will know, for example, if I get a pair of earrings that are Van Cleef, they will always sit beautifully on the ear. A lot of jewelry that’s not signed may look good, but it won’t lay as well on a woman when she wears it, whether it’s earrings or a necklace. It's that thoughtful design in the jewelry.
What I really think happened was that over the last couple of decades, we’ve had a real push toward brand recognition. I even think back to Calvin Klein and “Back to the Future.” There was that scene where she said, “Oh, your name’s Calvin,” because he had underpants that had a Calvin logo on them. I think that’s when it really started, and it’s not just in jewelry that name brands have become important. It’s also in purses. You look at what Chanel purses sell for, or Birkin bags and how desirable they are. I think we’re much more focused on that these days, and that’s happened over the last couple of decades.
With jewelry, there’s also the estate jewelry. When I first got into the business, it was kind of up-and-coming. I think there are two jewelers that are credited with making estate jewelry desirable, and that would be Fred Leighton in New York and Frances Klein in Beverly Hills. Both of those people have died, but they were really the early ones that brought estate jewelry into the realm of being desirable and not old-fashioned or your grandmother’s jewelry that you had to remake before you could wear it. You didn’t want to be dated in our parents’ day and age. Both of them also, I think, have a lot of signed jewelry. It’s part of educating the clients. As more people learned about jewelry and learned about how fine a piece of Cartier jewelry is when compared with one that’s not signed or made by an inferior jeweler, the appreciation for it and the desire for the signed pieces have grown exponentially.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I think I’ll pay more attention to how a piece lays. There are lot of times when I’m on Instagram and a post will say, “I think it’s a Mauboussin. It’s not signed, but I can tell by the way it’s done.” Do you think there’s an amount of unsigned stuff out there that’s quality?
Nan: What I will say is that over the years, I’ve had pieces of jewelry come through my hands from clients that were not signed but had been purchased from the house, whether it was a Cartier or Tiffany or Van Cleef. With almost every jeweler, at some point in time, there have been pieces that went through that were not signed. But I always encourage my clients, especially when they purchased it from that house, to go back and ask them to sign it.
In general, most pieces are signed, but one of the things we have to be careful of these days is that as the value has gone up on the signed pieces, so have the fake signatures. For example, I remember this beautiful Art Deco bracelet that passed through my hands when I had my own business. It came back a year or two later signed Cartier, and I 100% know that bracelet was not signed Cartier when I saw it the first time. That’s one of the things we have to be very, very careful about. A lot of the big jewelry houses will do certificates of authentication that you have to pay for. That’s become something that is more desirable as well, because nobody wants to buy a fake or something that’s signed that’s not correct.
Sharon: That’s upsetting, yes. In my early days I bought a beautiful tennis bracelet. I still love it. The cut of the stones is a little different; some were different shapes. I was told it was Art Deco, and I know that’s what they thought I wanted to hear. When I brought it in later to an appraiser, he said they never cut the stones this way until the 80s. So, I thought, “O.K.”
Nan: I know. What I will say, to insert this on the signed pieces conversation, is that there are certain jewelers that don’t always have their pieces signed. One of them is Paul Flato, who was a wonderful designer who was big with the Hollywood crowd. Verdura actually worked with Paul Flato before he went off on his own. There are a lot of really wonderful Flato pieces out there that are not signed. In those situations, we try to check. For example, I’ll check with the woman who wrote the book on Paul Flato. I’ll send her a picture and say, “Do you think this is Flato?” They have references to the original drawings that Flato made on the pieces. So, there are times that happens. You can have a piece that’s by an important jeweler that is not signed.
Sharon: Are there things in the jewelry you recognize that make you think it’s a Flato, even though it’s not signed?
Nan: Yeah, Flato was a wonderful designer; he made fabulous things. He had certain types of things you’ll see a lot. He did things that were made with leaves that have wonderful curling edges, or very whimsical things he would do. He made a lot of custom things for people that had a great sense of humor to them. Probably the best place to get a sense of what his designs look like is the Paul Flato book that Elizabeth Irvine Bray wrote, so I would suggest that. He has a very distinctive style. His things were beautifully made and really dramatic. Years ago, I owned a big brooch and earrings that belonged to Ginger Rogers that were so wonderful. He was a creative genius.
Sharon: That’s interesting, because the first thing I thought of when you said Flato was the leaf and very large, over-the-top things. Just gorgeous, but it was the leaf that came to mind first, as when you said Calvin Klein, the first thing that came to mind was Brooke Shields.
Nan: Exactly, the beginning of the brand. I want my brand.
Sharon: Exactly, yeah. I’m dating myself, but O.K. I’m impressed that you left the auction house when you had been there a long time, seven or eight years, and that you went out on your own. To me, it’s such a huge step. What was the catalyst for that?
Nan: I actually ended up spending 13 years with Sotheby’s, five with them in New York and eight in Beverly Hills. I really felt like if I was going to go out and open my own business, I needed to do it when I was still young enough and had the energy to do it. I was very fortunate when I went on my own that I had so many clients that came and brought me jewelry they wanted to sell. They came to me for help buying things or finding things they wanted to build in their personal jewelry wardrobe. It was a really wonderful time.
Also timing-wise, it was a fantastic time to enter as a dealer into the business. The big shows, the Las Vegas Show, which is typically in the beginning of June, end of May, and then the big Original Miami Beach Antique Jewelry and Watch Show, which is normally held in late January or early February every year, those two shows were fantastic in the day. They changed a lot, but I can remember when I first started doing the shows, there would be two days of setup at the Miami Show, and we would go and walk the show. We wouldn’t even set up our jewelry because on the setup days, a lot of the dealers would go and buy from each other. They would find out what new things had come in, and they would scoop them up before the private clients came in for the show.
We would do that, canvas the whole show and buy these wonderful things. There were things where people didn’t understand how great they were, how important they were. They didn’t price them at their value. We would buy and sell so much on the setup days. Before setup even ended, we would make our expenses, our airfare, our hotel, our booth rent, the showcases, the safe. Everything would be paid for, and then we’d start the show, and we’d be selling more and meeting more clients. It was a really wonderful time to go off on my own. It was fantastic.
Sharon: Is it because of the brands, whether it’s Cartier or whatever, that the dealers weren’t educated, that they just didn’t know? They didn’t have your background, so they didn’t recognize things? How did you get these things? How could you identify them when they didn’t know?
Nan: I think part of it is that I was so fortunate to have seen so much jewelry over those 13 years at Sotheby’s and to have worked with people that were very generous with their knowledge. I can remember going to a show up in Hillsboro, which is south of San Francisco. They used to do that show three times a year. I remember I was up there with a colleague at the time, and I looked down into this tiny, little case at their booth. They had a lot of other things, but there was a Buccellati bracelet in there. I remember asking, “How much do you want for the bracelet?” They didn’t even know it was Buccellati. They wanted such a low price for it.
I think that’s the thing; a lot of people did not know, and it was before the internet had really come into play. Unless people tracked auction catalogues, there wasn’t an easy way to know what prices were for things on the secondary market. I think we benefitted from the exposure I’d had in understanding what was good and how to look for signatures. Certain jewelers, when they sign things, their signatures are more obscure. Some are easily found and read, but others are like Van Cleef. A lot of their old things are so hard to see. Once you find them, you go, “Oh, it is Van Cleef. I knew it.”
Sharon: I know when I’ve gone to some of the shows and expressed interest in a piece, the dealer would say, “Oh, I just bought that two days ago.” I was like, “Everybody’s supposed to come to the show and be able to look at things.”
Nan: That’s exactly what happened. They probably bought it during setup day. They just bought it two days ago, and you were the next person to come along and find it.
Sharon: Do you think knowledge had increased? I know dealers don’t have any interest in doing research, and then there are dealers that research every little thing. Do you think knowledge in general has increased, or just interest? Some like to research and some don’t.
Nan: I would say in general that knowledge of jewelers has increased with the internet. I will say that probably the most helpful thing I’ve had, next to working with very knowledgeable people that shared their knowledge, was the library. I started buying books when I was working at the GIA and never stopped, and I used my library. I have library books, all jewelry-related, about all the different makers and periods. That in itself is a huge source of information, but a lot of information in the books in my library is not accessible online. So, it’s a combination of things. You can find fascinating articles that people have written on jewelers or periods or movements. The other way to develop your knowledge is by accessing the various books that have been written on whatever given topic you’re interested in. I think that knowledge is more readily accessible, and I think that that’s helped a lot as well. The more people know and understand, the more comfortable they are buying that piece of jewelry or being drawn to a certain period or knowing what to look for or why a piece is special.
Sharon: What about European makers that aren’t as known here? Are there some that come to mind or that you recognize? Who would they be?
Nan: There are a lot of wonderful makers that are not as known. The brands that everybody knows are the Cartier, Van Cleef, Tiffany, Bulgari, David Webb, Buccellati, those kinds of names. But there are a lot of fantastic, wonderfully talented makers that came out of Europe, and many of them were French. One of the things I was taught early on is that the French make—how would I put this? They put detail and time and thought into the pieces they make.
For example, something in the United States might be made so you see all the beauty on the part that faces forward. With the French, they’ll think about the back side of it, too, or the edges. It’ll be as beautiful on the back as it is on the front, and it’s a more thoughtfully made piece. The French are wonderful workmen and artisans. That’s one of the things that’s a big plus. When I’m going over a piece of jewelry and doing all the work on it, I’m always happy to see a French mark.
An interesting thing to know about France is that they will not allow anything that’s less than 18 karat to be sold. When you have marks on it—it’s the eagle’s head mark, which is a gold French mark—it guarantees it’s at least 18 karat or higher. Then they have the platinum marks. If somebody wants to import their jewelry from out of the country into France and sell it, they also have to be 18 karat. In those cases, they get the stamp we call the hibou, which is like an owl that says it was sold in France but it was imported into France. The French have always had a higher level of expectation with jewelers, and their pieces in general tend to be really wonderful. Anything that’s French is a plus in the jewelry world.
Sharon: Today it seems like, when I’m looking Instagram, there are so many one-off jewelers. They’re not just one-off pieces, but they’re Danish or German or people you’ve never heard of. They can be American. Not to knock anybody, but is it the design that’s more known as opposed to whether the earrings sit on the ear?
Nan: It’s a combination of those things. At that end of the day, we as women are the ones that are going to be wearing the jewelry, and if it doesn’t look good on them, that’s not going to carry it forward in a positive way. I would say the French designs are excellent. Generally, they’re designed to sit well, but honestly, quite often you’ll find that with the good but less-known jewelers, the ones that are not signed or the no-name jewelers, you still need to check.
One thing I have noticed over the years is in the Art Deco period, for example in the United States, the jewelry was so beautiful, and there was so much money in the roaring twenties that no expense was spared in the workmanship and the quality of the stones that were used. But quite often over the years, I’ve seen these Art Deco and 1930s bracelets out of France that are set with very imperfect diamonds, old cuts, low-quality stones, often off-color, and it’s interesting. I think Europe must have been in a different economic place than the United States when these were manufactured.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I was interested in Catalan Art Deco, and the dealers would emphasize to me that the stones weren’t of the highest quality. They were used in the piece, but they weren’t the highest quality.
Nan: Yeah, there you go.
Sharon: I’m interested in the overall piece. If the stone isn’t the highest caliber, all right, as long as it makes the piece.
Nan: Exactly. If it speaks to you and you love it, that’s the most important thing.
Sharon: Do you agree with the dealers or the people in the jewelry business who say, “It doesn’t matter if it’s signed if you love it”? What are your thoughts about that?
Nan: I think good jewelry is good jewelry. I don’t think it has to be signed to be a fabulous piece. The signature certainly helps in the overall value, and people are more aware of that these days than they used to be, but there’s a lot of beautiful, beautifully made, beautifully designed pieces out there that are not signed. I’m a big believer in buying what you love. Don’t buy what you’re lukewarm about. Buy what you really love, and try everything on to make sure it sits the way you want and that you like it. If you really love it, I believe in paying more than you think it’s worth. In my opinion, the pieces I love the most I paid so much for, more than I wanted to. I’ve forgotten about many, but to this day I still love and cherish those pieces.
In the summer of 2010, they moved to Istanbul’s Old City to launch a workshop to support local unsung artisans: women who still weave, knit and crochet in the traditions of timeless Turkish handcraft. Their workshops give traveling women a chance to meet Turkish women through classes and craft tours they host.
Catherine also offers customized shopping excursions throughout Istanbul with local vendors. Prior to moving to Istanbul, Catherine was a clothing and interior designer in California, with work stints in major design centers around the world.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Ron Kawitzky
Ronald Kawitzky, with his late wife, Sherry Kawitzky, is the founder of estate jewelry firm DK Bressler. The young husband and wife team began their treasure hunts searching for the very finest jewels and rare collectible objects at markets and fairs across the country, and later expanded their travels around the world — throughout Europe and the far edges of the globe, including Ronald's native South Africa.
The two developed a defining style and built a collection of brilliant jewelry spanning a broad array of stylistic periods from antiquity to the 21st century. This collection evolved into the DK Bressler brand, named after Ronald's mother, Doreen Kawitzky, and Sherry's mother, Selma Bressler.
Together the couple set up shop in New York City's Diamond District in 1990, while continuing to scour the globe for unique treasures to bring back home. While Sherry passed away in 2001, Ronald continues their legacy, finding the very best jewels and gemstones that fit their shared style.
Additional Resources:
DK Bressler’s Website
DK Bressler’s Instagram
Photos:
Ron Kawitzky didn’t set out to become a jewelry dealer, but like many collectors, once he started buying antique and estate jewelry, he couldn’t stop. His passion for jewelry (and the history behind it) led him to found the estate jewelry firm DK Bressler with his wife, Sherry. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what qualities collectors should look for when purchasing antique jewelry; how to choose a reputable dealer; and why you should always buy jewelry that excites you. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
Today, my guest is Ron Kawitzky, owner and founder of the estate jewelry firm DK Bressler, which is based in New York. Ron’s choices for his wares are fueled by his knowledge and his passion for history. That’s pretty evident when you look at his exhibits at tradeshows and elsewhere. Today, we’ll learn about Ron’s own jewelry journey as well as the estate jewelry market yesterday and today. Ron, welcome to the program.
Ron: Good morning, Sharon. Nice to speak to you.
Sharon: It’s so great to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you creative as a child? How did you get into jewelry?
Ron: I was actually creative as a child. I was an arts major at school. I dumped mathematics for artwork, which I much preferred. I won all kinds of awards for that, but I was a history buff too. Between the two, knowing about jewelry periods just seemed natural and normal to me.
Sharon: How did you segue? What did your family say when you said, “I want to be a jeweler” or “I want to go into the arts”?
Ron: My father said, “You can’t make a living on that.” For birthdays and holidays, you got a piece of jewelry, but you couldn’t make a living out of buying one or two pieces of jewelry a year. He wasn’t aware of London and New York as centers for the jewelry trade and profession. He was not ecstatic about it at all, but I’ve been collecting and buying and trading since I was young, so it seemed quite normal and natural to me.
Sharon: So, you were involved even though your bent was towards art. At the same time, you were collecting jewelry and enjoying it.
Ron: Yes, very much so. I always liked collecting things. I was kind of a nerdy kid. I bought everything from paintings to silver to small jewelry when I could find them. There was no appreciation back in those days, which was diamonds or nothing.
Sharon: You went into accounting, though, right?
Ron: Yes, isn’t that awful? It’s public now, but I would normally deny that entirely.
Sharon: Well, you can make a living in accounting, at least here in the States. It seems a little bit of a dichotomy to me, jewelry and accounting. Tell us, your firm is called DK Bressler. Obviously, that’s not your name. How did that name come about?
Ron: My last name is Kawitzky, which people can’t spell. It’s K-a-w-i-t-z-k-y. In order to try to avoid terminal problems and whatever else, we picked my late wife’s name. My late wife’s mother’s name was Bressler, and my mother’s name was DK. It worked out that way.
Sharon: When did you establish your business?
Ron: I established the business in 1990, 1989, or something like that. It’s been fantastic ever since, frankly.
Sharon: Along the way did you study jewelry? Did you continue to deal in jewelry when you were in the corporate world?
Ron: No, I bought jewelry as gifts and presents for my wife. I always loved dealing with it and playing with it. From the age of 13 I went to London with my parents, and I remember my mother had a friend in the jewelry trade. I would sit in their apartment and open a bag, and all these colors and stones would come flying out of the bag. I was always intrigued, and I was 13 at the time. This seemed great. So the idea that I could make a living out of it when I got older was very exciting for me.
Sharon: Was it always in the back of your mind as a second career if you stopped doing accounting? For me, it would be if I couldn’t take it anymore.
Ron: I really quit the day I graduated from accounting school. It was a seven-year master’s program. I couldn’t tell you one thing. The next day, I was so unmoored. I think I have a left brain, not a right brain. It went more towards style and beauty and stuff like that.
Sharon: Seven years, wow!
Ron: Columns of figures didn’t do it for me.
Sharon: So, tell us how you opened your business. Did you open the door and say, “I’m here”? Did you have inventory? How did you do that?
Ron: That is one of those critical moments that your life changes. It turns on a little occurrence you don’t give full credit to, but life is not a straight, linear thing. It evolves in twists and turns. At some point in my existence, in the 80s, I found myself unemployed, probably unemployable as well. It was a very difficult time, and my wife said to me, “You’ve talked about the jewelry business for your whole life. Maybe it’s time to finally get your hands dirty and take a chance and commit.” So, we did, with a lot of help from her, of course, and it worked.
Sharon: That’s a good point you made, several good points, about the fact that life is not linear. I guess to some people it might be.
Ron: But wouldn’t that be boring? You don’t know what’s around the corner.
Sharon: I was thinking of the description somebody once told me about their brother who had made a lot of money. He just kept rising up the corporate ranks, and they said he led an "enchanted" life. So, he had a straight line, in a sense.
Ron: Yes.
Sharon: Did you open your business here or in South Africa?
Ron: No, I grew up in South Africa but I’d left South Africa a long time ago by then. I opened it over here. I had a rucksack. I put three or four things in a bag and paid calls on Madison Avenue and 47th Street, at the infamous 10 West 47th Street. It was the center of the whole antique estate trade.
Sharon: Who are your clients today? Who do you sell to? Who buys from you?
Ron: Social media is one of them. Thank God, we have a great reputation and a history that goes back since 1990, which is already a long time ago. People call us when they want things, certain styles they need to source. We put it together, or we do shows and meet new people. We do travel a lot. I travel to Europe, to England, in America as well.
Sharon: During the lockdown- maybe you did travel- but how did you manage?
Ron: People were very willing to buy. They were happy to buy. I kept them in contact and in touch. Collectors are collectors. There were even more collecting types because they wanted to amuse themselves when Covid was in full flow.
Sharon: Ron, what do you consider a collector? There’s no real answer, but I’m always curious. What do you consider a collector?
Ron: It’s quite amazing. If you’re buying something like Louis Comfort Tiffany, in many cases, it’s men who collect things. They have no intention of their wives ever wearing it, but they love the object. They love the history. They like everything about it, and they’ll buy it for their collections. He has since passed on, but I had one collector who would frame the pieces I sold him and hang them up in his bedroom. He would have a wall full of the most glorious jewelry by Tiffany, by Castellani, by Giuliano, necklaces and bracelets and things, and no one would know what they were worth. It was quite amazing. He had no expectation of wearing anything; he just loved the piece and appreciated it.
Sharon: How about the women who buy from you? Do you have any women collectors?
Ron: Yes, very much so. Women want to wear the pieces or fantasize about wearing the pieces, so that adds another dimension to it, which is nice.
Sharon: How does history influence what you choose when you’re looking at another dealer’s pieces, or whoever you’re buying from? How does history influence what you choose?
Ron: Because I was a history buff, it was so exciting to find a piece of jewelry with certain motifs or illusions to, I don’t know, Queen Victoria’s Jubilee in 1901 or something. it’s interesting to see how people relate to these pieces. They feel part of the whole, storied past. People want to be part of a historical event. It sets you in time. It sets you in romance. It sets you in all kinds of things.
Sharon: When it comes to history and historic jewels, do you have a particular time period, like ancient gems? Is there a particular time period where you start or stop?
Ron: Yes. Roman cameos are wonderful, interesting to collect, but not always fully appreciated, not always fully understood. It’s a very esoteric, arcane business, and it’s subject to fraud and other things since you’re carving with a natural stone. But if you make a study of it and you know a little bit about Greek or Roman mythology, it makes sense. Suddenly you’re a part of something going back 1,000 to 1,500 years, and that’s very exciting. It places you in history.
Sharon: When you say that some people don’t appreciate it, are you talking about people who say, “It’s just another cameo,” or “I don’t get it”?
Ron: It’s the equivalent of—and forgive me for saying this—putting the painting over the couch in the living room. It matches the color. It’s there because it’s beautiful, not because the green of the drapes matches the green of the carpet. Do you know what I mean? The jewelry is more important than anything else.
Sharon: If someone is looking at two pieces but one has a history behind it, are you saying people will go for that? Will they say, “Oh, this one fits me better”? How does that work?
Ron: How typical it is for the period? That’s what you want. If you would like a piece of 1960s jewelry, it should be the quintessential piece. It should be by someone like Andrew Grima. You want somebody who understands context; otherwise, it might not mean all that much. You can just buy something for its beauty, too, but context is nice.
If you understand anything about art and history, and you look at a piece of Andrew Grima’s work, you understand it. There’s a synergy. There’s a joint thing there with Jackson Pollock, who also dripped oil onto canvas. I’ve seen gold dripped onto a piece of jewelry effectively. You know what I mean? It’s not a very elegant way to put it, but you need the best for its time. Everything is classical in the right sense.
Sharon: What do you think people should look for when they want to buy a piece of estate jewelry? Just, “Oh, this is interesting,” or should they be looking at value?
Ron: It should be, “This is interesting.” You have to love it. It’s like buying a share. You have to have faith in the company you’re buying a share in. It’s not just a question of buying something I don’t believe in, because if things change, tastes change, you might not fully realize it, but it might take years to be worth its value again.
Sharon: The dealers, or the people who are selling their own jewelry or buying from dealers, do they understand and appreciate the history?
Ron: That’s where we come in. We try and explain where it came from, what was happening in the world at the time. Is it a piece of industrial Deco jewelry? Do we know that it’s 1930s, 1940s? The world was at war. It has a context. You want something to collect from the time. You wouldn’t want to buy a flower brooch in 1942. It wouldn’t really much sense, would it?
Sharon: It’s always interesting to know what the history is or to have a part of history when you’re choosing a piece of jewelry as opposed to just—not even an interesting piece of jewelry, but—
Ron: You need to educate yourself, and you need to pass it onto the client who wants to be told. He has every right to be told, “This is what makes this a fine piece, and that’s not.” You do have to love the piece. You want to wear it; you want to enjoy it. That goes without saying. It is the prime mover of the whole thing, but once you pass that, you need to know details; you need to study.
Sharon: And what do you think about today when people are looking at jewelry? What do you think is the most popular when people are looking at your jewelry? Are they looking at brooches? Are they looking at rings?
Ron: Rings are probably the first seller. Rings and earrings are always the first, followed by bracelets, I would think, and ending up with brooches. Other dealers always say brooches never sell. I find that we sell brooches all the time. They’re beautiful objects, even if they’re not worn that much. I used to have a client who put the brooches on her lampshade next to her bed. She had a whole lampshade full of them. She just loved looking at them. When the light came through, she was so excited. It was a pleasure.
Sharon: There are fabulous brooches around, yes. Do you find a difference between the coasts in what people are interested in?
Ron: Yes. It’s a little bit low on brooches on the coasts because you’re wearing thinner dresses. In Palm Beach, you wouldn’t wear giant, heavy brooches because it would drag down the silk that you’re wearing. Even having said that, the ladies that wear brooches are probably also wearing Chanel and heavy fabric to go out for lunch and elsewhere.
Sharon: You do need some substance behind it in order to have a brooch.
Ron: Yes.
Sharon: There are tricks to get that substance, even on a T-shirt. So, why is there more interest in estate jewelry today? Do you think there is, and if so, why?
Ron: Very much so, as evidenced by the fact that there’s not too much stuff around. We’ve really been battling to find fresh inventory. Part of it is because a lot of it is sold these days through the auction houses instead of being sold through dealers. It seems to be a push towards the auction houses.
Sharon: Are you finding it more of a challenge today to find pieces?
Ron: Yeah, very much so. Either people don’t need to sell, or these are prosperous times.
Sharon: Do you buy through auction houses?
Ron: Very, very little. I have a few things that I need that I’ll track down. The auction house can be very helpful, but mainly you want pieces that haven’t passed through those storied doors. People want privacy to a large extent as well. Some people want privacy. They want to buy; they don’t want the whole world to see what they paid for things.
Sharon: That’s a good point. During the lockdown—it seems you were online a lot more through Covid.
Ron: Yeah, we had to get more into that because I’m a little bit lost that way. I can’t fully understand the internet and what you can do with it, but luckily, I have good helpers that help me do that stuff. It doesn’t come naturally to me. I’m still stuck in the past history-wise.
Sharon: I think it doesn’t come naturally to a lot of people, including people like boomers on the tail end of the baby boom. It’s overwhelming in terms of what there is to learn and how fast it changes.
Ron: It’s amazing, isn’t it? Anyway, we found ourselves sitting in front of the computer monitor. People called up for things, and we were shipping out stuff from all over the place, which was wonderful.
Sharon: Somebody would call you up for something, and you could look on Instagram or different sites to find it?
Ron: Our own site would bring people in.
Sharon: I was looking at your site last night. Is there a lot more you have?
Ron: Yes, we have ten million things, it seems like. What you see online is probably half of a half of a percent. We have things in every category, every range. Buying is the treat, as everyone knows, and collecting and organizing things and curating is exciting to me, too. I have different collections of different things. I guess it shows if somebody’s looking for something. We have copies and duplicates; not copies of jewelry, but similar pieces in duplicate because we loved it. If a piece is in great condition and exciting, it’s worth buying.
Sharon: Do you find more pieces that are worthwhile from a historic perspective over in Europe? Do you find them in people’s safe deposit boxes around the country? Where do you find those?
Ron: You never know where the next piece is coming from, Sharon. It’s amazing. Overseas is one thing, because there’s a much greater appreciation for estate and antique jewelry in Europe, I believe, than even in America, but you’re going to beat the bushes a little bit and try to get things from your suppliers. There’s always something coming out.
Sharon: Do you think there’s more appreciation of estate jewelry abroad because people here like shiny new things?
Ron: That, to an extent. They’ve been spoiled. They treat jewelry as an accessory. I find that the Germans, the English, buy things more as an heirloom piece. They want to pass it onto a grandchild or something. They look at it differently, whereas we look at it as more decorative, completely decorative. You buy it and you get bored with it, and the wedding is over and you can’t deal with this piece again. You move, and there are people who’ll sell a piece of jewelry. Whereas the Europeans have considered it very carefully and look at the long term, thank goodness; otherwise, there would be nothing left altogether to buy.
Sharon: That’s interesting and makes sense. Not to denigrate anything or anyone, but jewelry has to be pretty. Whether it’s historic or not, it has to be something you like, whether you’re going to pass it on or whether you think it’s going to be sold to another dealer. It has to be pretty.
Ron: That’s the first thing I said. You’ve got to love it. You have to enjoy it. You must think of it as a piece of pleasure that you’re wearing on your chest, which is lovely.
Sharon: I’m always interested in this question, Ron. What is the catalyst that got you to switch? You said you were unemployed, but switching from accounting to opening your own estate jewelry business is a huge step in my book. Was there something? Did your boss come in and say, “I want this by tomorrow”?
Ron: Now, you asked me a long question. I need to lie down on the couch, probably, to answer this question. I was in a public company we founded that was very successful. Then came the stock market in the late 80s. If you recall, everyone lost their money. We lost our second go-around for money. It was a long story, but effectively, that was really it. In the food business, we came up with an idea that was very lucrative, and it worked very well, but no one was buying anything in the late 80s in the stock market. So, I found myself available, as I said.
Sharon: Some people have a business, but they’re on Ruby Lane, or you see them at the shows on weekends buying and selling jewelry. Were you doing that? Was that in the background?
Ron: We always bought things. We always knew some dealers, and we’d go and tour these antique shows on the weekends. There used to be many more of them in New York. You’d meet people and find things and dabble a little bit, but it was always just buying. We never did any selling because whatever we bought, we liked. I still have those early pieces I bought when I wasn’t even that familiar with them. It really made a big difference. I never stopped enjoying that, and it came in very handy. When I found myself unemployed, I started selling the things I’d collected. That got me in the business that way, through the back door.
Sharon: I think you said an important point about the fact that there are not as many antique fairs right now. It’s partly Covid, but are they just waning? Was this something that was going on before Covid, that there are fewer antique fairs?
Ron: There were so many. There were two or three every weekend in Westchester and Long Island. We would travel all over the place in those days. When the kids were young, we’d bundle them up and go spend money. I guess we chose well, because you’d sit in a little auction house storefront in Queens somewhere, and you’d buy a little pair of earrings for $120 and it seemed magical. By the time we got home, we’d be so nervous. “Oh my god, is this the right way? Is it the wrong thing to buy?” Then Monday morning you’d rush off to 47th Street and sell and make 30 percent of your money, and you’d say, “That was easy. I could do this again.” Confidence just gets built on confidence, and it worked, thank goodness.
Sharon: Wow! I give you a lot of credit. Some of the things I look for when I’m buying a piece of estate jewelry are, besides the fact that I should love it, that it has to be in good condition. Do you need to be somebody who’s worked with jewelry to know that?
Ron: Condition is important because that could impact the future of the piece after a year or two. It should be correct for the time, correct for the period. It’s really important, and you should get pleasure out of it. The prime thing is to enjoy it, wear it with excitement, and you’ll get many years of pleasure out of it.
Sharon: I think it’s really important to wear it with excitement, like, “Oh, my gosh, this is so fabulous! Look at this!”
I’m thinking of dealers who have sold to me, and I felt like they were selling as opposed to somebody who—I know when I’ve looked at some of your pieces, you explain where they came from or why they’re important. Is that what we should be looking for?
Ron: Yes, very much so. It’s a good question that you asked, Sharon. I think it’s important for a dealer to be reputable. They should be steeped in knowledge about what they’re buying or selling. You find out more about your car before you buy it; you should find out about the wonderful piece of jewelry. It’s of equal value in many cases.
Sharon: I’m thinking about some of the pieces I’ve seen which you’ve shown, a fabulous pair of cameo earrings.
Ron: Yes.
Sharon: It sounds like you’re saying the dealer has to be the first line in terms of educating somebody.
Ron: That’s so well put. It’s exactly right, but you’ve got to do your own work. You should ask them for a write-up on an invoice, and probably in most cases, these things should be appraised for insurance purposes. It’s important to understand what you’re buying. It’s an arcane, esoteric world, and people should be careful.
Sharon: How do I know if I’m buying from somebody reputable, let’s say I go to the Miami Show in January or February, which is huge in that there are so many dealers. What should I look for? How do I know that somebody’s reputable?
Ron: Look at the other pieces the dealer has in his showcase. You’ll see the kind of pieces he gets. Most people are just buying gold for gold and not of an age and not of a period. It might not mean anything to them, and it might not mean anything for the customer, but I’m saying to enjoy the piece more profoundly, steep yourself in knowledge of the piece and the age and the epoch. I think that’s really important, and condition is everything.
Sharon: That’s a good point, having brought several pieces that I purchased from other dealers that I took to the repair shop several times. The condition is very important.
Ron: Welcome me back, and we’ll talk about it for as long as you want. I can’t think of anything more fun than discussing a piece. I love it. It’s exciting to me, and I like transmitting the excitement to the next person.
Sharon: You have several pieces you’ve shown me in the past. I could feel your excitement. They weren’t pieces that called to me so much, but I could feel your excitement in it.
Ron: I still enjoy it. I still get excited every time somebody brings a piece. You could look at it again and study again and discover something new about it, and that’s the thrill. It connects us to our whole history, to the whole background, to literature. It makes sense. If you understand it, you’ll get more pleasure out of it, like anything else.
Sharon: That’s a very good point.
Ron: Thank you so much, Sharon, it’s very nice of you to include me in your podcast.
Sharon: Thank you very much, Ron.
Ron: You are so welcome, and thank you.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Joy BC
Joy BC (Joy Bonfield – Colombara) is an Artist and Goldsmith working predominantly in Noble Metals and bronze. Her works are often challenging pre-existing notions of precious materials and ingrained societal ideals of western female bodies in sculpture. Joy BC plays with mythologies and re-examines the fascination with the ‘Classical’.
Joy, a native of London, was profoundly influenced from an early age by the artistry of her parents - her mother, a painter and lithographer, her father, a sculptor. Joy’s art education focused intensively on painting, drawing and carving, enhanced by a profound appreciation of art within historical and social contexts.
Joy BC received her undergraduate degree from the Glasgow School of Art and her M.A. from the Royal College of Art in London. She has also held two residencies in Japan. The first in Tokyo, working under the tutelage of master craftsmen Sensei (teacher) Ando and Sensei Kagaeyama, experts in Damascus steel and metal casting. She subsequently was awarded a research fellowship to Japan’s oldest school of art, in Kyoto, where she was taught the ancient art of urushi by the renowned craftsmen: Sensei Kuramoto and Sensei Sasai.
Whilst at the RCA she was awarded the TF overall excellence prize and the MARZEE International graduate prize. Shortly after her graduation in 2019 her work was exhibited in Japan and at Somerset house in London. In 2021 her work was exhibited in Hong Kong and at ‘Force of Nature’ curated by Melanie Grant in partnership with Elisabetta Cipriani Gallery.
Joy Bonfield - Colombara is currently working on a piece for the Nelson Atkins Museum in the USA and recently a piece was added to the Alice and Louis Koch Collection in the Swiss National Museum, Zurich.Additional Resources:
Joy’s Website
Joy’s Instagram
Photos:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
While others are quick to classify artists by genre or medium, Joy BC avoids confining her work to one category. Making wearable pieces that draw inspiration from classical sculpture, she straddles the line between jeweler and fine artist. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she works with noble metals; the exhibition that kickstarted her business; and how she confronts the often-dark history of classical art though her work. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is the award-winning artist and goldsmith Joy Bonfield-Colombara, or as she is known as an artist and jeweler, Joy BC. Joy is attracted to classical art, which she interprets from her own contemporary viewpoint. Welcome back.
You’re alone, and it’s always a challenge to me, whether you’re a writer or jeweler, to find ways to get out of the isolation. You can only spend so much time alone. How do you figure out a way to do that?
Joy: I love it. I love it because I’m an only child. Often people don’t think I’m an only child, but I think that’s because we had so many people coming and going from our house when I was a kid. My mom would invite lots of people, and they would stay and go. They all added very much to who I am as well, all those people that came through our house. The thing with imagination, I used to spend so much time on my own. My mom and my dad were always working. They were fantastic parents, but they were oftentimes—I think also when you’re a child, time is a completely different realm. You experience it in a completely different way.
I have memories of playing in the garden and looking at flowers, taking them apart, and putting together arrangements of stones or turning a copper box into a spaceship, all sorts of different objects transforming into other things. I still hold on to that aspect of being a child. I think it’s important not to lose the ability to play and imagine. I spend hours doing that. I’m now in my studio, and I often really like the early mornings or rare late nights when no one is around. There’s a quietness that I find quite meditative. When I’m carving, things can be going on around me, and I’m so focused that everything else disappears. So, I don’t mind the isolation because I really enjoy making.
Sharon: I like when it’s quiet, but I can only take so much. At some point it starts to affect me. It sounds like you handle it better. In the materials I read about you, it says that you work in noble metals and in bronze, but a lot of people don’t know what a noble metal is. What is a noble metal?
Joy: It makes them great. Just the word noble I think is lovely.
Sharon: It is. What is it?
Joy: A noble metal, apart from the metal family in the periodic table, is a reluctant oxidizer combined with oxygen. I have the exact definition for you. Let me find it. “A noble metallic chemical element is generally reluctant to combine with oxygen and usually found in nature in a raw form, for example gold. Noble metals have outstanding resistance to oxidization, even at high temperatures. The group is not strictly defined, but usually is considered to include palladium, silver, osmium, iridium, platinum and the second and third transition series of the periodic table. Mercury and copper are sometimes included as noble metals. Silver and gold with copper are often called the coinage metal, and platinum, iridium and palladium comprise the so-called precious metals which are used in jewelry.”
This also goes back to the fact that I had bad eczema when I was a kid. I remember putting on a pair of costume earrings that had nickel in them and they made my whole head swell up. I don’t like the smell of brass. There are certain materials I find an attraction or a repulsion to. Noble metals, because of the way they don’t oxidize, can sit next to your skin, and I love the feeling of them.
Sharon: That’s interesting, because I’ve only heard the term noble metals in a couple of places. One was at a jeweler’s studio, making jewelry, but it was explained to me, “It’s gold, it’s silver, but it’s not copper.” You said it’s copper. I never realized it had anything to do with whether it oxidizes or not.
Joy: Interestingly, copper also is really precious in Japan. Some of the most expensive teapots are copper ones.
Sharon: Oh, really?
Joy: It’s a type of copper where you’ve created a patination, which is beautiful, deep red color. This technique is quite hard to explain and is really highly prized.
Sharon: What’s the name of the technique?
Joy: Shibuichi. I’m not good at the pronunciation, but I can write it down afterwards. I love metal patination and metal colors. In fact, that’s why I love bronze. Bronze is mostly composed of copper as an alloy. It doesn’t smell in the way that brass does, and also I love the reactions you get. Verdigris is one of the techniques I like to use a lot in my work, which is used with copper nitrates. You get these incredible colors of greens. When you think of classical bronze sculptures or bronzes that are found under the sea, they often have these incredible green colors to them. I think about it like painting or a composition, the colors you find in metal colorations. People often question what the color of metal is, but actually the different alloys or treatments you can give to metal can give you an incredible array of different colors.
Sharon: I’m curious. I agree, but I see the world through a different perspective. I might look at the statue you’ve taken from the under the sea and say, “Somebody clean that thing.” I don’t clean things that have a patina, but that would be my first reaction, while you appreciate that right away. Why did you go to Japan?
Joy: The first time I went to Japan was through The Glasgow School of Art. There was an exchange program you could apply for, and if you were awarded, there was also a bursary that you could apply for. The first time I went, I was awarded this bursary. One of my friends while I was studying at The Glasgow School of Art was Japanese, and she said to me, “Go and stay with my grandmother. She will absolutely love you.” I went to stay in her grandmother’s apartment in Japan, and I studied at the Hiko Mizuno College of Jewelry, which is in Harajuku. I don’t know if you’ve heard about it before.
Sharon: No.
Joy: This school is really interesting. Actually, when I was there, they hired Lucy Saneo, who recently passed away. They did an exhibition of hers at Gallerie Marseille. She was there as a visiting artist, and she was lovely. We had some interesting discussions about different perceptions of materials and jewelry between Europe and Japan. I was there on a three-month exchange, and I met Lucy as well as the teachers that I was allocated.
One of them, which I mentioned before, was Sensei Ando. He taught to me how to make Damascus steel. I made a knife when I was there, but the whole process had a real philosophical theory around it, with how difficult Damascus is to make. Often in modern knife making, you have pneumatic hammers. The hammering is done by a machine, whereas we have to do everything by hand in 40 degrees Celsius with 90% humidity outside with a furnace. We had to wrap towels around our heads to stop the sweat from dripping into our eyes. It was really difficult, but the end result was amazing. He said, “Life can be hard, but if you push through it, you can find its beauties.” It stayed with me, the way he had the philosophy, that process, and what that means to put yourself into the piece.
I also did metal casting and netsuke carving with Sensei Kagaeyama. It was in Tokyo that I first saw netsuke carvings in the National Museum in Tokyo. They really fascinated me, these tiny carvings. Do you know what a netsuke is?
Sharon: Yes, a netsuke, the little things.
Joy: They’re tiny carvings. If anyone doesn’t know, in traditional menswear in Japan, you would have a sash that goes around your kimono to hold your inro, which is your pouch which would hold tobacco or money or medicine. You would have a sash buckle to stop it moving, which was sometimes simply carved. Other times they were incredibly elaborate and inlaid. It could be this tiny bird so that the underside of the bird, even the claws, are carved. It was only the wearer that would necessarily see those details. In the same way that really good pieces of jewelry have that quality, the back is as important as the front.
Sharon: Oh, absolutely. My mom sewed, and it was always, “Look at the back of the dress, the inside of the dress. How’s the zipper done?” that sort of thing. The netsuke, they were only worn by men?
Joy: They were only worn by men. It was combs that were worn by women, which were a social hierarchical show of your wealth or your stature. They were also given as tokens of love and were the equivalent of an engagement ring. They were given in this way. A comb is something I’ve always found interesting. I didn’t know the scope of the importance of the comb in Japan, specifically in the Edo and Meiji periods.
Sharon: Are you considering adding combs to your repertoire? Maybe the comb part is plastic with a metal on top.
Joy: Combs are one of the things I explored within my degree show. I did a modern iteration of Medusa as a body of work, 17 different bronze sculptures that were a collection of combs with all different bronze patinas, but those were sculptures. They were not actually wearable. There was a whole wall of these pieces. My whole degree show was about metamorphosis and the ability to change. It was a combination of sculpture and jewelry.
For “Force of Nature,” the exhibition Melanie invited me to do, I did one wearable comb. It was called Medusa. The bristles were moving, and they had fine, little diamonds set between all the bristles so they would catch the light in certain movement. It also had a pin at the back so you could have it as a sculpture or you could wear it.
Sharon: It sounds gorgeous. You mentioned classical art, and I know classical art is a big catalyst or an influence on your jewelry today. Can you tell us about that and where it came from?
Joy: Growing up in London, London has some of the most amazing collections of ancient art. Also modern collections, but if you think about the V&A or the British Museum, there are artifacts from all over the world which are incredible. As a child, they were something my parents would take me to and tell me stories or show me things. There was also a moment when my mom took me to Paris when I was about 13 years old, and I saw the Victory of Samothrace, which is this huge Hellenistic statue which is decapitated. She doesn’t have a head and she doesn’t have arms, but she has these enormous wings and retains this incredible sense of power and movement, and that stayed with me. I’ve always found particularly the Hellenistic—not the Roman copies, but the older pieces—incredibly beautiful. I don’t why, but I’ve always felt this attraction to them.
When I studied at The Glasgow School of Art, there was also a collection of plasters of Michelangelo’s Enslaved and the Venus de Milo. They were used since the 1800s as examples of proportions, and you would use them in your drawing classes. I used to sit with them and have my lunch and draw them and look at them. I started to look at the histories or the stories behind some of them, and I didn’t particularly like how they were often silencing women. Some of the stories were quite violent towards women, so I started to deconstruct and cut apart these classical figures.
I also looked to Albrecht Durer’s book on proportion, because they had a real copy of it at The Glasgow School of Art that you could request to look at. I also believe that to understand something, you can deconstruct it and take it apart. Like a clock, if you start to take it apart, you understand how it works. So, I started to take apart the proportions, literally cutting them apart, and that’s how the deconstructed portrait series started. It was not just the form; it was actually what classicism stood for. Many of the collections at the V&A and the British Museum were stolen or taken in really negative ways. They’re a result of colonialism and the UK’s colonial past. There are often darker sides to those collections.
That was something I had to confront about this attraction I had towards these classical pieces. Why was I attracted to them? How could I reinvent it or look at that in a new way? I still love these classical pieces. My favorite painter is Caravaggio, and my favorite sculptures are the bronze and stone pieces from the Hellenistic Greek period. It didn’t stop me from loving them, but it made me rethink and redefine what classical meant for me.
Sharon: Is the deconstruction series your way of coming to terms with the past? Besides the fact that they’re beautiful, ancient statues, is it your way of reinventing the past in a way?
Joy: Absolutely. The past, you can’t erase it. It’s been done, and the fact that these pieces have survived all of this time is testament to their beauty. Something survives if it’s beautiful or evocative or has a power about it. I think it’s interesting that Cellini, who was a sculptor and a goldsmith, is known more famously for his bronze statue of Medusa in Florence. He made lots of work out of precious metals, but they didn’t survive. It was the bronzes that survived.
Translating these works into precious metals also makes you reflect or think about them in different ways, and it makes the cuts or the breakage something positive or beautiful. The way I placed diamonds into the breakages or the cracks is also to celebrate our failures or celebrate our breakages. That moment I had the accident and everything in my life fell apart, it was also through that process that I discovered the most. We need creation and destruction, but it’s a cyclical thing.
Sharon: Interesting. My last question has to do more with the dividing lines. Do you consider yourself an artist who works in jewelry, or do you consider yourself a jeweler who happens to make art through your jewelry? There are a lot of jewelers who don’t consider themselves artists; they just make jewelry and that’s it. How do the two rub together for you?
Joy: I see myself as an artist. I think within the arts, that encompasses so many different disciplines. A beautiful piece of literature written by Alice Walker, I think, is as moving as an artwork or a painting. The same with a composition of music. I see jewelry as another art form and expression. I don’t divide them. However, I don’t like all jewelry, in the same way I don’t like all paintings or sculpture. The way in which we look at or define art is so subjective, depending on your norms, the way you were brought up, which part of the world you grew up in, how you have been subjected to certain things. When people ask me what I do, I say I’m an artist and goldsmith because I particularly work in noble metals and bronze. There’s still a jewelry aspect of my work. It is very much jewelry. You can wear it, but it is also sculpture. It is one and the other; it’s both.
Sharon: Have you ever made a piece of jewelry in gold where you said, “This is nice, but it’s not a work of art. It doesn’t express me as an artist; it’s just like a nice ring”?
Joy: Definitely, and definitely through the period of time when I did my apprenticeship. I learned a lot. I made pieces where people would bring me albums or pieces they wanted to reinvent and find modern ways of wearing. I thought that was pretty interesting and I enjoyed that work, but I don’t necessarily see it as an artwork that moves the soul or has the same effect as one of my deconstruction portraits or the Medusa series. I still think it has its place and it means a lot to that individual, and I enjoy the process of making it, but it’s different.
Sharon: I know I said I asked my last question before, but I’m curious. Did your friends or colleagues or people in the street see something you had on and say, “Oh, I want that”?
Joy: Yes, definitely. I think if you like something and wear something because you like it enough that you wear it, usually someone else will like it, too. That’s definitely part of it; I started making things and people still wanted them. I think my mom and dad were also sometimes the first port of call I would test things on to see whether they liked it. My dad is much more challenging because he doesn’t wear a lot of jewelry. I made him a piece recently and he does wear it occasionally. He’s quite a discerning artist. He won’t sell his work to certain people. He’s very particular about how he works and who he works with. But yes, that did start happening, and it’s grown. I’m not sure how else to answer that question.
Sharon: I’m sure it’s validating to have people say, “Oh, that’s fabulous. Can you do one for me?” or “Can I buy it from you?”
Joy: I think that sense of desire, of wanting to put your body next to something or wear it, is one of the highest compliments. I went yesterday to a talk at the British Museum about an exhibition they’re about to open called “Feminine Power: The Divine to the Demonic.” I went with a friend of mine who’s a human rights lawyer. I made a piece for her recently which is very personal and is about various important things to her. Seeing her wear it made me feel really honored because she’s an incredible person, and I could make her something that’s part of her journey and that she loves so much that she wears it. Knowing it gives her power when she wears it is an incredible feeling. Also knowing that she may pass it down; that’s another aspect with jewelry.
My mom has this one ring that was passed down in her family. My parents were struggling artists in London, and she sold most of her elegant pieces. I also find that aspect of jewelry really incredible, that it could transform by being sold so she could continue to do projects and things she wanted to do. I think jewelry’s amazing in that way, that the intrinsic value can transform and be handed down and changed. I think that’s interesting, but there was one ring she didn’t sell because it’s a miniature sculpture, and we all agree that it’s incredibly beautiful. The rest of the pieces weren’t things my mom or I or anyone really engaged with, but this one ring, to me, looks like a futurist sculpture in a seashell. It’s a curved form. I think it’s the Fibonacci proportions, and it’s incredibly beautiful. Going back to your very first question, I think that may have had a strong influence in my appreciation and realization that I liked jewelry.
Sharon: It sounds like you’re several years into a business that’s going to be around for a long time. I hope we get to talk with you again down the road. Thank you so much for talking with us today, Joy.
Joy: Thanks for having me.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Joy BC
Joy BC (Joy Bonfield – Colombara) is an Artist and Goldsmith working predominantly in Noble Metals and bronze. Her works are often challenging pre-existing notions of precious materials and ingrained societal ideals of western female bodies in sculpture. Joy BC plays with mythologies and re-examines the fascination with the ‘Classical’.
Joy, a native of London, was profoundly influenced from an early age by the artistry of her parents - her mother, a painter and lithographer, her father, a sculptor. Joy’s art education focused intensively on painting, drawing and carving, enhanced by a profound appreciation of art within historical and social contexts.
Joy BC received her undergraduate degree from the Glasgow School of Art and her M.A. from the Royal College of Art in London. She has also held two residencies in Japan. The first in Tokyo, working under the tutelage of master craftsmen Sensei (teacher) Ando and Sensei Kagaeyama, experts in Damascus steel and metal casting. She subsequently was awarded a research fellowship to Japan’s oldest school of art, in Kyoto, where she was taught the ancient art of urushi by the renowned craftsmen: Sensei Kuramoto and Sensei Sasai.
Whilst at the RCA she was awarded the TF overall excellence prize and the MARZEE International graduate prize. Shortly after her graduation in 2019 her work was exhibited in Japan and at Somerset house in London. In 2021 her work was exhibited in Hong Kong and at ‘Force of Nature’ curated by Melanie Grant in partnership with Elisabetta Cipriani Gallery.
Joy Bonfield - Colombara is currently working on a piece for the Nelson Atkins Museum in the USA and recently a piece was added to the Alice and Louis Koch Collection in the Swiss National Museum, Zurich.Additional Resources:
Joy’s Website
Joy’s Instagram
Photos:
Photos available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
While others are quick to classify artists by genre or medium, Joy BC avoids confining her work to one category. Making wearable pieces that draw inspiration from classical sculpture, she straddles the line between jeweler and fine artist. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she works with noble metals; the exhibition that kickstarted her business; and how she confronts the often-dark history of classical art though her work. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is the award-winning artist and goldsmith Joy Bonfield-Colombara, or as she is known as an artist and jeweler, Joy BC. She is attracted to classical art. She interprets it from her contemporary viewpoint, and her work has been described both as wearable art and as miniature sculptures. We’ll learn all about her jewelry journey today. Joy, welcome to the program.
Joy: Thank you for having me, Sharon.
Sharon: So glad to have you all the way from London. Tell us about your jewelry journey. You came from an artistic family.
Joy: Both my parents are artists. My mother is a painter and lithographer, and my father is a sculptor. So, from a really young age, I was drawing and sculpting, and I thought this was quite normal. It was later that I realized my upbringing was perhaps a bit different from some of my friends or my peers.
Sharon: Yes, it’s unusual that I hear that. They weren’t bankers. Was it always assumed that you were going to be an artist or jeweler?
Joy: Not at all. The fact that my parents were artists, I saw a lot of their struggle to try and place themselves within our society. They both were part of the 1968 revolution. My mom is actually from Italy. She left a tiny, little—not a village, but a small town called Novara which is near Verona and Turin, when she was 16 years old. She came to London and fell in love with London. She went to Goldsmiths School of Art, where she met my father. My father is English, and his ancestors were stonemasons from the Isle of Purbeck. So, they both met at art school, and it was much later that they had me.
As I grew up, they were incredibly talented individuals. They also struggled with how to live and survive from their artwork. As I grew older, however, as much as I loved the creative world I’d grown up in, I was also trying to figure out which pathway was right or was going to be part of my life. I didn’t necessarily want to be an artist. For a long time, I wanted to be a marine biologist because I was really good at science, in particular chemistry and biology, and I really loved the ocean. I still love the sea. Swimming is the one sport I’m good at, and I find it fascinating. I still find the sea as a source of inspiration.
So no, it wasn’t an absolute given; however, as I got older and went through my education, it became evident to me that was the way I understood the world and the spaces I felt most natural in. I’m also dyslexic. I used to be in special class because I couldn’t write very well, but my dyslexia teacher said, “You’re smart. You just have a different way of seeing the world.” I was always imaginative. If I couldn’t write something, I would draw it or make it, and I liked the feeling that would create when someone else lauded me for it. Immediately, I had this connection with the fact that I could make things that people thought were interesting.
So, I studied science and art and theater, and then I went off to travel to Cuba when I was about 18, before I moved to Glasgow. When I was in Glasgow in Scotland, I saw The Glasgow School of Art degree show, and I was taken aback by the jewelry and metalwork show in particular. I don’t know if you know the Rennie Mackintosh School of Art.
Sharon: No.
Joy: It’s a British Art Nouveau building. In Scotland, it was part of the Arts and Crafts movement. It was a school that was designed by Rennie Mackintosh. He’s a world-famous architect.
Sharon: Is that the one that burned down?
Joy: Yes, that year. I was actually there the year the school burnt down. I went to The Glasgow School of Art and I loved it. I did three amazing years there, and in my second year, I was awarded a residency to go to Japan. We had our degree show and we were preparing for it. The night before the fire, I took all of my works home. I don’t know why. I was taking everything home to look at before we had to set up for the exhibition, and the school burnt down. At the same time, I had three major tragedies in my life. My best friend passed away; the school burnt down; and my boyfriend at the time had left me. I went through this total mental breakdown at the point when I was meant to start my career as an artist. I was offered the artist residency in the jewelry and metalworking department.
When Fred died, I was really unwell. A friend of mine had offered that I go to New York. I ended up having a bike accident, which meant that I was in intensive care. I couldn’t work for three years. It was actually two friends of my family who were goldsmiths who gave me a space to work when I was really fragile. It was through making again and being with them that I slowly built back my confidence. That was my journey from childhood up right until the formals of education. These three events really broke me, but I also learned that, for me, the space I feel most happy in is a creative one, when I’m carving.
Sharon: Were you in the bike accident in New York or in Glasgow or in London?
Joy: In New York. My friend Jenny, who’s a really good friend of mine, was going to New York and said, “I want you to come to New York because you’ve had the worst set of events happen. I think it would be good for you to have some time away.” I said, “Yeah, I agree,” and I came to New York. I was in Central Park cycling. It wasn’t a motorbike. I blacked out. Nobody knows what happened. I woke up the next day in intensive care at Mount Sinai Hospital. I woke up in the hospital, and they told me I had fallen off my bike and I had front lateral brain damage, perforated lungs, perforated liver.
Sharon: Oh my gosh!
Joy: I feel really grateful that I’m here.
Sharon: Yes. To back up a minute, what was the switch from marine biology? I understand you were dyslexic, but what made you decide you were going to be a jeweler or an artist? What was the catalyst there?
Joy: I don’t think there was ever a specific switch. I feel like art has always been a part of my life. It was always going to be that. I was always going to draw and make. I was also encouraged to do sculpture. I remember trying set design, because I thought that married my love of film and storytelling and theater with my ability to draw and sculpt. I thought, “Theater, that’s a realm that perhaps would work well.” Then I went and did a set design course. The fact that they destroyed all my tiny, little things, because they have to take them apart to take the measurements for how big certain props or things have to be, drove me mad. I couldn’t deal that I’d spend hours on these things to be taken apart.
I think it was probably the exhibition I went to see at The Glasgow School of Art. When I saw the show, I was really taken aback that all the pieces had been handmade. They were, to me, miniature sculpture. I hadn’t considered that jewelry could be this other type of art. Seeing these works, I thought, “Wow! This is really interesting, and I think there’s much more scope to explore within this medium.” I think that was the moment of change that made it for me.
Sharon: What is it about sculpture, whether it’s large or jewelry-size, that attracts you? Why that? Is it the feeling of working with your hands?
Joy: I think it’s a combination of things, partly because my father’s a sculptor. I remember watching him sculpt, and his ancestors were stonemasons. They were quarriers from the Isle of Purbeck dating back to the 12th century. I remember going to the quarries with my dad and thinking how amazing it was that this material was excavated from the earth. Then my father introduced me to sculpture. A lot of West African sculpture, Benin Bronzes, modern sculpture by Alexander Calder. Michelangelo and classical sculpture was all around me in Italy when we’d go and visit my grandparents.
I think sculpture has always been something I found interesting and also felt natural or felt like something I had a calling towards. My mom has always said I have this ability with three-dimensional objects. Even as a child, when I would draw, I would often draw in 3D. I do still draw a lot, but I often collage or sculpt to work out something. You often draw with jewelry designs, actual drawings in the traditional sense, but I go between all different mediums to find that perfect form I’m looking for.
Sharon: When you were attracted to this jewelry in Glasgow, did it jump out at you as miniature sculpture?
Joy: Yeah, definitely. Looking at it, I saw it as miniature versions of sculpture. I also find artists such as Rebecca Horn interesting in the way that they’re often about performance or extensions of the body. Even Leigh Bowery, who worked with Michael Clark, was creating physical artworks with ballet. These interactions with the body I think are really interesting: living sculpture, how those things pass over. I don’t really like categorizing different art forms. I think they can cross over in so many different ways. We have this obsession about categorizing different ways or disciplines. I understand why we do that, but I think it’s interesting where things start to cross over into different boundaries.
Sharon: That’s interesting. That’s what humans do: we categorize. We can spend days arguing over what’s art, what’s fine art, what’s art jewelry. Yes, there’s gray. There are no boundaries; there’s gray in between.
Tell us about your business. Is that something your folks talked to you about, like “Go be an artist, but make sure you can make a living at it”? Tell us about your business and how you make a living.
Joy: I felt my parents were going to support me in whatever decisions I made. My mom ran away from Italy when she was 17, and she always told me that she said when she was leaving, “You have to live your life, because no one else will live it for you.” She’s always had the attitude with me. Whatever direction I wanted to go in, I felt supported. I’ve always thought that if you work really hard at something or you put in the hours and you’re passionate about it, then things will grow from that. Every experience I’ve had has influenced the next thing. I never see something as a linear plan of exactly how I’m going to reach or achieve certain things. I’m still very much learning and at the beginning of it. I only graduated in 2019 from the Royal College of Art doing my master’s.
As I mentioned before, these two goldsmiths had given me an informal apprenticeship, basically. They were two working goldsmiths that had a studio, and they had been practicing for around 40 years. They had given me a space to work on this skill. Even though I studied a B.A. at The Glasgow School of Art, which is a mixture of practical and theoretical, I felt that after going to Japan and working with a samurai sword specialist making Damascus steel—it took him 25 years to get to the point where he was considered a master craftsman, this master in his craft. I felt like I had just started, even though my education in making had started from birth because my parents were artists and exposed me to all these things and encouraged me to make.
Within metalworking and jewelry work, there are so many techniques and so many things you need to take years to refine. Really, it's been like 11 years of education: doing a B.A., then doing an informal apprenticeship, then doing my master’s. Only now do I feel like I’ve really found this confidence in my own voice within my work. Now I see the reaction from people, and I can help facilitate people on their journeys. I really enjoy that aspect of what I’m doing.
I’m still trying to figure out certain ways of running a business because it’s only me. My uncle runs a successful business in Italy in paper distribution, and he said to me, “Why don’t you expand or mass produce your work or have different ways of doing things?” This is where I find he doesn’t necessarily understand me as an artist. For me, it’s about process and handmaking everything. Perhaps that might not be the way I make the most money, but it’s the way in which I want to live my life and how I enjoy existing. My business at the moment is just me handmaking everything from start to finish. What’s really helped me recently is having support from the journalist Melanie Grant, who invited me to be part of an exhibition with Elisabetta Cipriani. It was with artists such as Frank Stella, Penone, who’s one of my favorites from the Arte Povera movement who also came northern Italy, from an area where my family is from.
Sharon: I’m sorry; I missed who that was. Who’s one of your favorites?
Joy: Penone. He’s the youngest of the Arte Povera movement in Italy that came out of Turin. He often looks at nature and man’s relationship to nature, the influence of it or connection. The piece of his that was on display was a necklace which was part of a tree that wraps around the décolletage. Then it has a section which is sort of like an elongated triangle, but it was the pattern of the skin from his palm. It’s very beautiful. His sculpture, his large pieces, are often trees forming into hands or sections of wood that have been carved to look like trees, but they’re carved. There’s also Wallace Chan, who is obviously in fine jewelry. Art jewelry is considered—I don’t know what to say—
Sharon: That’s somebody who has a different budget, a different wallet. Not that your stuff isn’t nice, but the gems in his things, wow.
Joy: There was Grima, Penone, Frank Stella. It was a combination of people who are considered more famously visual artists than fine jewelers. Then there was me, who was this completely new person in the art jewelry scene. I felt really honored that Melanie had asked me to put my work forward. I’ve always known what my work is to me. I see is as wearable artwork. But there was the aspect of, “What do other people see in it? How are they going to engage in this?” The feedback was absolutely incredible.
Since then, the work and the business have been doing so well. I have a bookkeeper now. The one person I employ is an amazing woman called Claire. She has been really helping me understand how my business is working and the numbers. However talented you are, if you don’t understand how your business is working, then you’re set up to fail. It’s really difficult to continue to stay true to my principles and how I want to make, and to try to understand how I’m going to be able to do that, what it’s going to take. I’m right at the beginning of it. I’m only in my first two years of my business. At the moment, from speaking to Claire, she was saying I’m doing well. I feel really supported by my gallery also, and that’s the big part of it. I think that’s going to make the difference.
Sharon: Wow! You do have a lot of support. No matter how talented you are, you do have to know how much things cost, whether you’re making by hand or mass-producing them. I’ve always wanted to stick my head in the sand with that, but yes, you do need to know that.
I didn’t realize there were so many artists at the exhibit. I knew you had this exhibit at Elisabetta Cipriani’s gallery, but I didn’t realize there were so many artists there. That must have been so exciting for you.
Joy: It was super exciting, and it was really interesting. Melanie has just written this book, “Coveted,” which is looking at whether fine jewelry can ever be considered as an art form. That’s a conversation I’m sure you’ve had many a time in these podcasts, about classification. It’s what we were talking about before, about how everything becomes departmentalized. Where is that crossover? How does it work? If people say to you, “I’m a jeweler” or “I’m an artist,” you’ll have a different idea immediately of what that means.
It was hard to present an exhibition which was a combination of different work with the interesting theme of “force of nature,” just as we were coming out of lockdown. These are artists who’ve all been working away, and we got to do a real, in-person exhibition that people could attend and see and touch. One of the most magnificent things with jewelry is the intimate relationship you have with it, being able to touch it, feel it, that sensory aspect. I think in this day and age, we have a huge emphasis on the visual. We’re bombarded with visual language, when the tactile and touching is the first thing we learn with. To be able to touch something is really to understand it.
Sharon: I’m not sure I 100% agree with that philosophy. I have jewelry buddies who say they have to hold the piece and feel it. I guess with everything available online, I don’t know.
Joy: Diversity depends on what your own way of experiencing things is. Also, the way you look at something will be informed by the way you touched it. Yes, we are all looking at things big picture. We know it’s made of wood or metal or ceramic. We can imagine what that sensation is. Of course, imagination also influences the ability to understand something, so they work together. I think it just adds different dimensions. It’s the same with music. Sound is another sensory way in which we experience things. Music often moves me and helps me relax in ways that other art forms don’t do.
Sharon: Right.
About Isaac Levy:
Isaac Levy and his wife Orna are the founders of the Israeli luxury jewelry brand Yvel, best known worldwide for their distinctive creations featuring pearls. Isaac was enchanted by the natural beauty of pearls and the creativity involved in jewelry craftsmanship. He began to train with his mother-in-law who recognized his raw talent for innovative design and worked to mentor him, sharing her knowledge of gemstones, gold, pearls and jewelry craftsmanship. Isaac and Orna now create a powerful design team, stimulating innovation in pearl and gemstone jewelry design with award-winning results.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Elisabetta Cipriani
Elisabetta Cipriani invites world leading contemporary artists to create aesthetically innovative and socially relevant wearable art projects. Since the opening of her namesake gallery in 2009, Elisabetta’s pioneering vision has redefined the boundaries between jewelry and fine art, capturing the imaginations of artists and collectors across the globe.
The gallery has collaborated with over 50 critically acclaimed painters and sculptors, including Ai Weiwei, Chiharu Shiota, Giulio Paolini, Ilya & Emilia Kabakov, Carlos Cruz-Diez, Enrico Castellani, Erwin Wurm, Giorgio Vigna, Jannis Kounellis, Rebecca Horn, and Pedro Cabrita Reis, to name a few.
The gallery’s projects can be found in museums and private collections across the globe, including Musée des Arts Décoratifs, Paris; Museum of Art and Design, New York; World Jewelry Museum, Seoul; and The State Hermitage Museum, St Petersburg. A number of Elisabetta Cipriani’s jewelry collaborations are featured in From Picasso to Koons: The Artist as Jeweler, the international touring exhibition of artist jewelry curated by Diane Venet.
Elisabetta Cipriani participates in leading art and design fairs, including Design Miami and Design Basel, TEFAF Maastricht, Artissima Turin, MiArt Milan, PAD London, and PAD Monaco.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Elisabetta Cipriani, founder and owner of the gallery Elisabetta Cipriani Wearable Art, a gallery of limited-edition jewels created by artists. The gallery has collaborated with more than 50 well-known painters and sculptors since its opening in 2009. Welcome back.
I remember years ago, even eight, nine years ago, I bought an artist jewel, and people just didn’t understand why you would buy a jewel from an artist. In fact, I was listening to a panel once, and somebody said they wouldn’t buy an artist jewel by Man Ray because it wasn’t what he was known for. That really surprised me, because I think I would want a piece like that because it’s so unusual. What changed?
Elisabetta: I think people are more knowledgeable now. They study more. I’m talking about art, not about jewelry. Even young collectors who want to start a collection, they are eager to learn more about the artist and the works. I think they are acquiring a stronger sensibility in work that is art. Can jewelry be art? Yes, if it’s done by an artist. Also, when people see an art piece from an artist and they see a jewel from the same artist, they see the connection. The dialogue is the same; there is a continuity.
Before, people were probably seeing it as a decorative piece rather than a pure art piece. The traveling exhibition really helped because it went to New York, it went to Miami, it went to Venice, it went to Paris at the Museum of Decorative Arts, I think Brussels. It went everywhere, and she is still working on it. She wants to bring it to Brazil and a main city in Italy like Milan or Rome. She’s working on it. So, people are seeing art as jewelry, and they understand that it’s not decorative, but it’s an art piece. It’s collectable, and it is precious not because it’s a jewel, but because it is an intimate aspect of an artist.
An artist, especially in the past, they didn’t do it for a commercial purpose. They did it for themselves, for their friends, for their lovers. It was only later that, for example, Picasso had François Hugo, who was doing his gold plates. He asked Picasso if he could do those big plates reduced as small medallions to wear. That was a goldsmith who actually started the collaboration with the medallions with Picasso, GianCarlo Montebello in Milan. In the seventies, they started inviting artists like Man Ray, GianCarlo Montebello, Niki de Saint Phalle, Lucio Fontana to do jewelry as a commercial business, basically.
Then, apart from people seeing artist jewelry in museums, they also see us: galleries showing in the best fairs around the world, in New York, in Maastricht, in London or in Paris, the Basel Design Fair in Miami, and also auctions. At the auctions, the prices are crazy. I can’t buy at an auction. If I look at something that I would love to buy, I’m there, but I already know that I can’t reach that price, because it goes five times more than the estimated price.
Sharon: The Picasso medallion was at auction. I don’t know what it went for before. I don’t even know if it sold, but when Bonhams had its modernist jewelry auction recently, that was the centerpiece, that Picasso medallion.
Elisabetta: Yes, even Claude Lalanne, for example, was at a recent auction in Paris, and the prices—the estimate was 3,000-5,000 euros, and it sold for 70,000 euros. I have two Lalannes, thank god. These pieces, they grow in value; we all know that. For example, recently I collaborated with Carlos Cruz-Diez, one of the most important Venezuelan kinetic artists. He passed away a few years ago at the age of 91, so he had a great life. He was an amazing artist. He was a beautiful man, and we did a necklace together and a bracelet. With him, we split the editions. He took a certain amount of necklaces and a certain amount of bracelets. Mine sold out, and I had one left in another color, gold. I had a client coming to see the pieces, and I was surprised at the increase in price. When I asked him, “Can you update me on the price?” the new price was 40% higher. I never say this to my clients because I don’t like it. You buy it because you love it, not because you want to make an investment, but it’s obvious that’s an investment because, after two years’ time, it’s 40% higher.
Sharon: Somebody once said that people buy jewels done by artists because the painting, the artwork itself, may be unaffordable, but this way they can buy something that’s relatively affordable. Do you find that true? Do you find that people say, “I love this artist. I want a piece of his or hers”?
Elisabetta: First of all, my collectors are art collectors, so those who buy my jewelry are mainly art collectors or lovers of jewelry. Most of them, they buy the jewel because they have the art piece but they can’t carry it with them around the world, whereas the jewel, yes, they can, and they love it. Of course, if I say it’s $30,000, for them, it’s nothing compared to how much they paid for the art piece by the artist. Art collectors, they understand the value of the piece. Even if there is no diamond, no precious stones, they know it costs that amount of money because it’s made by that artist.
Sharon: Was opening your own gallery something you wanted to do for a long time?
Elisabetta: No, not at all. I started this business as a passion. I wasn’t really thinking to become a gallerist or a dealer. I just wanted to do something I really loved, that I always wanted to do. Even better, because I linked jewelry with art. I’m continuing to work one-to-one with visual artists. It’s something I love, to talk to artists. I’m a curator as well because I choose the artists that I love, as a painter, as a sculptor. I choose the artist with whom I would like to collaborate. I see an art piece; I don’t see a jewel at all. I love what they create, and it happened like this spontaneously.
Sharon: You’ve mentioned there’s resistance from the artists. Is it because they’re surprised that somebody would ask them to do that? Do they feel like, “I don’t do jewels; I do paintings”? What’s their resistance?
Elisabetta: I must say I’ve only had a few turn-downs, artists that say, “No, I’m not interested. It’s not what I do.” They don’t see it as their language, so they say, “I’m not doing it.” This past year there were ones that said “no is no,” but there were two or three others who said “not now.” I understood in time that “not now” means they are too busy creating art works and going to museums, as I said before, and that they need to have a quieter moment to do this. It’s really very challenging for them.
Imagine an artist who creates big sculptures. They work with their hands, with arms opened up. They also have to think about wearability. How can I translate that sculpture into something very small, in the same language? How can I translate the strength of a big sculpture into a miniature? It’s difficult. It’s even frightening, but I am good at reassuring them that once they come up with an idea, with a sketch, with a prototype, I’m good at helping to transform it into something wearable.
Sharon: What’s the process? They say, “O.K., now’s the time,” they sketch something and bring it to you and say, “What do you think?”
Elisabetta: Once they agree, I ask them to create a sketch or a protype, something. I need to start with their design. They give me the design which, thank god, I always like it. It would be difficult to tell them I don’t like it. Every time I pray it’s something nice, and thank god, it was always nice.
Then I bring the design to my goldsmith, who is in Rome, and I start the production, meaning I start a protype. We do casts and samples in silver, and once I’m happy with my goldsmith, once we get close to the design the artist has given me, I show the first model of the prototype to the artist. Then we make changes. It’s back-and-forth communication and changing until the artist is 100% happy. Then we can start making the piece in gold or in silver. It depends on the artist, if he wants to do it in silver or in gold.
It's all up to the artist whether we make a small edition or a unique piece or a bigger edition. The maximum I work with is an edition of 12. I have a few where I have an edition of 20, but that’s because they’re made in silver and it’s easier. Still, even if it’s an edition of 20, there are limits depending on how big it is. I also have unique pieces. In any case, even if it’s a limited edition, it’s always handmade at the end. There isn’t a stamp, a mass production. It’s always the hand of the goldsmith who needs to modify it. They are the same within an edition, but not exactly the same. We keep the beauty of it as well.
Sharon: I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but it’s a question that nobody can answer definitively: what’s the difference between art jewelry and jewelry by artists? For instance, when I think of art jewelry, art jewelry can be made of gold or silver, but it can also be made of wood and plastic and feathers. What is the difference between somebody saying, “I do art jewelry” as opposed to, “I’m an artist”? What’s the difference?
Elisabetta: The difference, very obviously, is that art jewelry is made by someone who does only that, and artist jewelry is a jewel made by a visual artist, a painter or a sculptor that has nothing to do with jewelry. It’s a classic experiment. It’s more traditional in a way. I’ve never an artist-jeweler bring an experiment or feathers. It’s not the material; it’s the intrinsic thing, the complexity of the material, combining the classic with precious materials. It’s too advanced for an artist to do that, I think.
Sharon: That’s interesting. If they’re not doing jewelry, if their métier is painting or sculpture, to come and say, “I want to make something that has plastic and gold or plastic and wood,” that is—
Elisabetta: And you can see the difference. Just yesterday I sold a piece to a well-known American collector. I didn’t know about her. She sent me an article about her collection. She has a contemporary jewelry collection. I call it contemporary jewelry, quite impressive, but it’s very different from an artist jeweler. I don’t know; It’s a feel. It is a little bit colder to me.
Sharon: Cold contemporary. There’s so much beautiful contemporary jewelry, but it’s done for the beauty of the jewelry in a sense.
Elisabetta: Yeah, I see artist jewelry being more sculptural, more two-dimensional.
Sharon: Do you see this as a growing field? Are more galleries coming online with this?
Elisabetta: There aren’t many galleries. There are five in the world. It may happen that a person wakes up in the morning and says, “O.K., I’m going to collaborate with an artist,” and they do three projects with different artists and then they disappear. There are only five proper galleries who have a program, who show at fairs, who are around, but the interest is for sure on collectors.
I would be happy for more galleries to open. The more there are, the better the word is spread. It’s important. We need quality, not quantity, so if they open, they should do it in a nice way. It would be a shame to work with an artist and create something that is not properly made.
Sharon: Do you ever have artists come to you and say, “I’d like to do some jewelry”?
Elisabetta: Not visual artists.
Sharon: No?
Elisabetta: Not sculptors and painters. Jewelers? Yes, many, because I have two sections in my gallery. One is what I specialize in, which is artist jewelry. A few years ago, I opened up the gallery with jewelers who have a very strong sculptural approach when they create jewelry. For me, both of them are artists. Even if you’re not a painter and a sculptor, you’re indeed an artist as well, because you’re creating something. So, a few years ago—I don’t remember if it was before Covid—I launched this section, which is called EC Lab.
Sharon: I’m sorry; what is it called?
Elisabetta: EC Lab.
Sharon: EC Lab, O.K.
Elisabetta: You know about it.
Sharon: I’ve seen it. I didn’t realize what it was. I’ve seen it on your website, yes.
Elisabetta: There are great artists there. There’s Ute Decker; there’s Joy BC; there’s Gigi Mariani; Leonid Dementiev; John Moore. They are artists to me. Some of them actually create small sculptures. That is what they do for a living. It’s not painting, it’s not traditional sculpture, but their approach is sculptural and so unique that, for me, I don’t see the difference between artist jewelry and contemporary jewelry, if you want to call it that. It’s quite successful, and I enjoy seeing these artists within the context of artist jewelry and identifying them as artists.
Sharon: Interesting combination. I could see why that would work out, and that it’s popular because it’s not retail. You’re not going to walk into a mall and find them.
Elisabetta: No. Actually, most are by appointment. Not everyone can come and ring the bell and come upstairs. You need to make an appointment because it’s exclusive here, and I protect them. They’re like my little children.
Sharon: So you have to do it by appointment. It’s not like somebody walks in off the street.
Elisabetta: The gallery is always open, but I want people to make an effort to make an appointment.
Sharon: Is that the way it’s always been?
Elisabetta: Yes.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Elisabetta, thank you so much. I would love to enter your gallery. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Elisabetta: It’s been a pleasure.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Elisabetta Cipriani
Elisabetta Cipriani invites world leading contemporary artists to create aesthetically innovative and socially relevant wearable art projects. Since the opening of her namesake gallery in 2009, Elisabetta’s pioneering vision has redefined the boundaries between jewelry and fine art, capturing the imaginations of artists and collectors across the globe.
The gallery has collaborated with over 50 critically acclaimed painters and sculptors, including Ai Weiwei, Chiharu Shiota, Giulio Paolini, Ilya & Emilia Kabakov, Carlos Cruz-Diez, Enrico Castellani, Erwin Wurm, Giorgio Vigna, Jannis Kounellis, Rebecca Horn, and Pedro Cabrita Reis, to name a few.
The gallery’s projects can be found in museums and private collections across the globe, including Musée des Arts Décoratifs, Paris; Museum of Art and Design, New York; World Jewelry Museum, Seoul; and The State Hermitage Museum, St Petersburg. A number of Elisabetta Cipriani’s jewelry collaborations are featured in From Picasso to Koons: The Artist as Jeweler, the international touring exhibition of artist jewelry curated by Diane Venet.
Elisabetta Cipriani participates in leading art and design fairs, including Design Miami and Design Basel, TEFAF Maastricht, Artissima Turin, MiArt Milan, PAD London, and PAD Monaco.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available on TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
For a long time, jewelry created by visual artists was considered lesser than artwork made in the medium the artist was known for (compare the price of Man Ray jewelry to the price of Man Ray photographs, for example). But in recent years, both jewelry and art collectors have realized the significance of artist jewelry, due in no small part to Elisabetta Cipriani. Through her gallery, Elisabetta Cipriani Wearable Art, Elisabetta collaborates with leading visual artists to create limited edition artist-made jewels. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what inspired her to combine fine art and jewelry; the process she uses to work with artists; and why jewels by artists should be a part of any jewelry lover’s collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Elisabetta Cipriani, founder and owner of the gallery Elisabetta Cipriani Wearable Art, a gallery of limited-edition jewels created by artists. The gallery has collaborated with more than 50 well-known painters and sculptors since its opening in 2009. We’ll hear more about Elisabetta’s jewelry journey today. Elisabetta, welcome to the program.
Elisabetta: Hello, Sharon. Thank you for having me.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you study jewelry as a young girl? Did you like glittery things? Tell us about that.
Elisabetta: Basically, I didn’t study jewelry when I was in university. I never studied jewelry; I only had a big passion for traditional jewelry. I’m Italian. I come from Rome, and there is this Italian tradition of having beautiful jewelry. Especially in the 80s, women were going out with parures, with the necklaces and bracelets. They were taken out from the safe for special occasions. I have memories of me as a young girl on my mother’s bed with her jewelry on the bed, dressing up for various events and weddings. I was touching them and looking at them from the back and the front, and I was trying them on and asking her all the time, “Please, can I have this when I’m older?” I was playing with them while she was selecting the right piece for the right event. For me, when she went out, it was the best moment. It wasn’t like playing with a doll. It was like, “Oh my god, beautiful jewelry. I can have a look at them again.” I’ve always had this passion.
I have a background in jewelry in terms of how to make a jewel. I didn’t study the history of jewelry. Of course, now I know about it because I read and studied a little bit. I’m not an expert; I know what I’m talking about, but I never had the occasion to study in depth in university, for example. When I finished school, I wanted to study jewelry, to create jewelry, and my father said, “There’s no way you can do that. You need to do a proper degree.” I took a gap year, and I remember that I did an evening course on pearls and diamonds. It was really advanced, and I didn’t understand much of it, but I ended up doing history of arts, which is now all connected.
After university, I worked in a museum of contemporary art in Rome called MACRO. It’s a state museum for contemporary art in Rome. I worked there for three years as co-curator. I had the best experience of my life because I met the most important artists the museum was inviting to have their exhibitions there. How old was I? I was 23 years old, and for me, it was natural to talk to a famous visual artist like Tom Wesselmann, who passed away, or Cecily Brown, Vik Muniz, Tony Cragg. For me, it was natural to have a conversation with them and go to their artists’ studio with the director of the museum to select the artworks for the exhibition. I learned how to move in the world of art with the artists. I was really comfortable being with them, but deep in my heart, I always had this love for jewelry. I was wearing jewelry from my mother and grandmother that they were giving to me as gifts. I always kept it as a passion.
I moved to London in 2005, and I worked for an art gallery. I left Rome because I wanted to grow and be independent and learn the art market, how you sell an art piece, rather than being a curator. Then I learned about jewelry by Picasso and Man Ray, and I thought it was an interesting topic to follow and learn about. Then there was Louisa Guinness. I used to work for the husband of Louisa Guinness, Ben Brown. At that time, I think it was two years since she had started her business, and she had one kid after another. She asked me to bring the cabinet of jewelry to the art fairs, so I was bringing this cabinet with Picasso jewelry and Kapoor jewelry. It was 17 years ago. I remember there was an interest in artist jewelry, but not as much as today. I was selling the pieces. People were seeing them more as jewelry back then, sculptures by artists. It’s weird how things have changed. The perception is that what you are buying or owning is not a jewel, but it’s an art piece you can wear by a visual artist.
I worked for Ben Brown for three years, and then I got married. When I was pregnant, I said, “That’s it. I’m not going to continue working for the gallery. I want to work independently. I’m going to open my own business.” I started an artist jewelry gallery. I invited the artists I met at the Museum of Contemporary Art in Rome and asked them to work with me. At the beginning, they were very supportive. Most of them said yes. One didn’t say yes, but I’m still in touch and asking him if he would like to do a project with me. I’ve been waiting 12 years and he hasn’t come back to me yet. He didn’t say no. They say they are busy with their art works, with their museum shows. An artist needs to be free mentally and needs the time to sit down and work small. You might think it’s straightforward for an artist to do a wearable art piece, but it’s not something they typically do. My first collaboration was with Tatsuo Miyajima, a Japanese artist. He works with LED. He's a very established sculptor from Japan.
Sharon: What is his name? I’m not familiar with him.
Elisabetta: Tatsuo Miyajima. If you want, I can send you his email.
Sharon: That would be great. So, he’s very established. What was his reaction when you talked with him?
Elisabetta: This was in 2009. He was surprised at the time that someone would propose something so unusual. He had never done a jewel, so it was also a challenge for him, and he agreed. He sent me an LED from Japan. Basically, it’s a digit with numbers that count from one to nine or nine to one. I have it here. It represents the continuation of life in Buddhism. It’s never zero. This LED has been mounted inside a ring with three colors: rose gold, white gold and yellow gold. It’s a very complicated ring to put together. When you close the ring, the ring turns on and you see this LED that counts from one to nine. Whoever buys the ring can choose the counting speed, from one second to five minutes, because you decide how long you want your life to move on.
Actually, a museum purchased this piece for the museum collection. The museum is called the Slager Museum in Hertogenbosch. They did a beautiful exhibit called “Private Passion” many, many years ago, and they bought the Miyajima ring and a few other pieces. It was my first museum purchase.
Sharon: How exciting.
Elisabetta: It was very exciting. My first project was with Tatsuo Miyajima, then Atelier Van Lieshout, then Tom Sachs. I only had three pieces, and the museum contacted me to go to Holland and bring this jewelry, these small pieces to show them. I was very pleased with it.
Sharon: Wow! You’re just starting your own business.
Elisabetta: When I look back to how I started and with the resources I had, it’s incredible what I’ve done in the past 12 years. I should say to myself more often that I should be proud of myself. Normally I don’t say those things. I always move forward, and I never stop and say, “Well done, Elisabetta.” Sometimes I need to stop and say it.
I’m inside my husband’s gallery, Sprovieri. We are in Mayfair. When I started in 2009, my husband only had a piece of the gallery. Ten years ago, he expanded and got another space which is linked to this one. When I started, he gave me a shelf from his library. So, I had this shelf and then he said, “O.K., you can take this space.” It was a shelf like this. I think it was light blue or grey blue; I don’t remember which color. I put my three little jewels on it. So, I had this shelf with these three jewels, and I remember Diane Venet, the most important artist jewelry collector in the world, coming to visit me to see my new projects. I was young; everything was new. She bought the Miyajima ring and the Atelier Van Lieshout piece. That’s how I started from my little shelf.
Then I took a small space from the gallery. In 2019, when I celebrated the 10-year anniversary of my business, I took this space here, which is very nice. It’s always inside my husband’s gallery, where he sells art. It’s very nice, because when people come to see the exhibition of an artist, then they come here and discover the most intimate aspect of an artist, which is a jewel.
Sharon: How did Diane Venet know that you even existed there? Were you advertising? How did she find out about you if you only had three pieces?
Elisabetta: When I was working from Ben Brown and bringing this jewelry to the fairs, I spoke to her a few times. I went to see her exhibitions because I was starting to become passionate about artist jewelry. That’s how I learned about artist jewelry. So, I went to her. I think her first exhibition was in—I don’t remember the city in France where she first showed her collection, but she brought this exhibition to the MAD in New York. I kept in touch with her, and she came to visit me. After a few years, when she opened her exhibition at the Museum of Arts and Design in New York, she invited me to talk with her and Didier and Marc Vendome in this huge stadium about my projects.
In any case, I continued inviting artists to work exclusively for me worldwide. I had a very successful project with Giuseppe Pennone; he’s an artist from the arte povera movement. He created this beautiful necklace called “Feuille,” which means leaf, made in bronze and pure gold. The necklace is basically bronze where it’s rolled into a leaf, and the artist’s hand is imprinted on the leaf because his work is about the connection between nature and the person and the human. It was a very successful piece, and I brought it to my first fair in Paris.
The fair was in 2011 or 2012. It was my first fair. At the fairs, there’s always a prize for the best piece in the fair or the best designer. At that fair, there was a prize for the best piece. I was not even thinking about the prize. For me, I was like, “Oh my god, it’s my first fair. How do I do this?” I was panicking. Then all of a sudden, the director of the fair came to my booth and said, “Congratulations, you’ve won the prize.” I’m like, “Which prize?” I won the prize for the best piece in the fair with the Feuille necklace. The prize was basically that the Museum of Decorative Arts in Paris would purchase the best object of the fair and put it in the collection of the museum.
Sharon: That’s a high bar to pass. You surpassed it.
Elisabetta: Exactly. There were dealers there who had 40 years of experience. I had just arrived in their world. That piece sold out in less than six months, which is quite unusual for an artist jewel, especially back then. Now, things are quicker. I remember when I started, I had an inquiry once a month. Now, I’ve got 10 inquiries a day for prices from people all around the world. I don’t know how they know about me because I’m so niche in field. I think this is the power of the virtual world, that people browse online and discover. Maybe it’s actually thanks to Diane Venet, because she’s bringing her collection around the world and people are even more knowledgeable about the subject matter. They might see pieces that come from me, so maybe it’s because they’ve seen it in Diane’s exhibition.
Jewelry Journey Podcast – Avi Levy
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Avi Levy
Avi Levy currently serves as President of the International Gemological Institute (IGI) North America. With 30 years of fine jewelry expertise, Avi brings valuable experience to the Institute including diamond sourcing, manufacturing, product development, brand partnerships and wholesale trade to major jewelry retailers. Skilled in building relationships and trust within all areas of the supply chain, his leadership skills and expertise gained from various roles have yielded advantageous results and strengthened key partnerships.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Founded in 1975, the International Gemological Institute (IGI) is the largest independent gemological laboratory worldwide with more than 20 laboratories. Avi Levi leads the North American division of the business, and his goal is to bring this esteemed company into the 21st century. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why he partnered with SCS Global Services to make IGI’s work more sustainable; how IGI is maintaining trust with clients while updating its offerings; and why he wants to educate consumers on the intricacies of natural and lab-grown stones. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Avi Levy, North American President of the International Gemological Institute or IGI, a 45-year-old company. IGI provides the fine jewelry community and consumers with a broad range of services. Welcome back.
You described this as part of your resuscitation or rejuvenation process for IGI. I like those words a lot. Tell me more about them. To me, the internal change is so important because so many companies just do the outside. Are you doing ads or social media in addition to the internal change? What are you doing?
Avi: We’re doing a little bit of everything. Yes, it all starts inside. Defense always wins the game, as they say. It starts inside because you have to change the culture inside. You have to give the people the power. You have to give the people confidence and the backing that you’re behind them, that you want to help them work, you want to help them grow. I always say I want people on my team who are thinkers, people who are doers, people who can help get the message across. That’s bringing new people in as well as talking to the people who have been here for a while and helping them see different things. Everybody likes to have change, but you need to have support.
In addition to the inside, yes, we’re doing things. We have different social media campaigns. We have discussions and talks with our current customers and new customers. We explain to them why it’s important for IGI to do things in a different manner. It’s also important for a service company to listen to its customers, to hear what their customers need today. That goes all the way down from the wholesalers to the retailers to the consumers. Consumers are shopping differently today. Not everyone goes to the store. A lot of people are more online. There’s a lot more information out there that customers have at their fingertips to help educate them. We want to do everything we can so when they click on IGI.org, there’s education that can help them understand the way the market is today, what the offerings are, why certain things are happening, what the reasons for certification are, why it’s important to have an IGI certificate to help verify their jewelry. We also want to teach them about what to look for in shopping today, since it’s changed so much.
Sharon: Are your customers, retailers or dealers, coming to you more often or with different requests because it’s become so important to know where your diamond came from?
Avi: Yes, I would say they are coming to us for those points and more. When you start engaging with a customer and listening to them, letting them know we’re interested in helping to help their business, you’ll be surprised how they will come back to you with a lot of ideas. We try to work out the best ones for that particular instance or experience, but yes, people are definitely coming to us in a much more helpful way, in a much more collaborative way.
Sharon: I would presume that you would deter some people who’ve been in the industry a long time and say, “Forget it. I’ll just go to the guy down the street who does it the same old way.”
Avi: It’s not that we changed everything. You can’t change everything. We’re talking about evolution. It’s all about evolution. As I mentioned before, a lot of things are still the same; it’s just that the offerings are different. The internet has become so important today. Things are being done so much more online, so we’ve got more offerings online. We’ve got more interactive things that help the customers see different products online. People are doing more reports online, so we don’t have to print. We simply have a QR code affixed or some other vehicle where a customer can scan that, and they’ll see the report online. They’ll see educational platforms online. It’s all about getting more interactive with the online experience. We’re on that as well. That’s appealing for a lot of customers, but we still have a lot of people who want it done the old way, and we don’t deter them. We’re still here to help them and service them. We just do it in a different manner.
Sharon: I’m thinking about the QR code. I envision this team got together for a meeting where you had your IT people say, “Well, we can do A, B or C. How about this?” How did this happen?
Avi: The A, B, Cs are the easy part. It’s the D, E, Fs that’s get us into discussions. IT people are also very creative, and they want to think out of the box as much as possible. We’re constantly challenging each other on our limitations and seeing how we can rise above them if possible. You can’t always do everything you want, but you have to try.
Sharon: As part of this whole process, have you upped your presence in the marketplace, your social media, your ads?
Avi: I would say so. We are definitely out there more with ads and social media ads with the idea of collaboration. I think in 2022 and where we are in our lives, collaboration is important. Letting customers know that we are willing to collaborate to bring good things to the end result is important. A lot of people in our industry, they don’t like to go outside their four walls. There’s a hindrance there, and in some ways I understand. There are certain things that shouldn’t be shared, but it doesn’t mean that everything shouldn’t be shared. There are ways to collaborate in very efficient manners, in very helpful manners, that can help elevate people’s business. That’s what we want to see. We want to see people come together for good reasons.
Sharon: I’m thinking about the jewelry itself. How does this impact jewelry? Let’s say I go into a Zales looking for a wedding ring. How does it impact the end process there?
Avi: A lot of the process to get there has not changed. It’s about what happens after. Be it Zales or a different retailer, we’re thinking about how we help a customer see less paper or less plastic. Can we do it more online? That Zales customer, or a Macy’s or a Costco or a Sam’s Club customer, everyone is thinking differently today. If we can help that experience at the store level, at the retail level, we’re going to do it. We’ve created a different point of sale support for retailers that helps on the education side.
Education is most important. People want to learn, but you have to give them the exposure to learn. If you don’t give them the tools, how are they going to learn? If IGI can be on the backside of helping a customer understand why this diamond has 4Cs, why this gemstone has a certain imperfection, where gold comes from, if it’s recyclable or not, whatever information we can supply that can help the retailer make the sale and help the customer understand the process better, we want to be there for them.
Sharon: Are retailers or people in the industry down the line coming to you and saying, “Hey, it would be great to have some material on the source of the gold”?
Avi: Right, or the history of diamonds or differences between lab-grown and natural. Yes, more and more retailers are coming to us and asking.
Sharon: Can you differentiate lab-grown? Do you have the tools to do that?
Avi: We do. We have the tools. We were the first lab to really experience the lab-grown diamond phenomenon. It started in Antwerp back in 2005 when we saw goods coming. A few years later, we saw more goods coming. Management knew right away this was going to be something that we need to address. We need to at least understand where it’s coming from, why it’s here and how to grade it.
Lab-grown and natural have the same chemicals, the same physical and optical characteristics. That’s all the same, but yes, we do grade lab-grown diamonds. It’s a much more meticulous experience than grading a natural diamond because of the process. When you’re looking at something lab-grown, there are a lot of different variations that come up. The diamond itself has different and more tinges than a natural diamond because you’re putting together a solution. You’re putting something together; it’s not coming out of the ground in a natural way. You’re actually creating something. So, there are different things that go into the solutions to create. As a lab, we have to be able to call them out and see them to grade them correctly. We’ve built proprietary machines. We used other standard machines that are out there, and we’re currently looking into how we can update our machines to better detect lab-grown diamonds.
Sharon: Do you have requests where a retailer or dealer says, “Hey, I was told this was a real diamond, but I’m suspicious.” Not suspicious; there’s nothing wrong with lab-grown diamonds, but you want to know.
Avi: It happens all the time, from smaller stones to bigger stones to pieces of jewelry. They come to us to give that final O.K. on what the piece is, so we’ve got to be able to do that for them.
Sharon: How about laser inscriptions? Are only stones of a certain size laser-inscribed? How does that work?
Avi: We do it pretty much for 20 points and up with our normal, every-day type of lasering. It can go down smaller. Now, there are different laser inscriptions that we’re looking into for the diamond. We do laser inscribe all the up way to 10 or 15-carat diamonds. We put the report number on the girdle, and it’s inscribed and it moves on.
Sharon: Is that for your benefit? Is it for you to track the diamond during the whole process?
Avi: It’s probably for everyone’s benefit. It calls out that this diamond belongs to this report number; therefore, it has a history. It has a reference. If a stone comes back to us, we check to see if that inscription is still there. Then we do a matchup, where we take the information in our system to see if it matches the stone that’s been given to us. That inscription is the first option for us to see if the stone has been graded and if it’s got a history.
Sharon: What percentage of natural versus lab-grown are you seeing today, would you say?
Avi: Natural still outnumbers lab-grown, but lab-grown is catching up. If not catching up, then it’s definitely growing. It might have been 5% or 10% of our business years ago. It’s probably getting closer to 25% to 30% of our business. It’s growing. It simply gives the consumer a different option, but at the same time, I think it’s helped do a job where natural diamonds are becoming even more popular as well. We’re seeing people like either one. That’s the beauty of customers and consumers. There are different tastes out there, and the industry is able to give people a little more variety.
Sharon: Why do you think natural has become popular? Because people think it’s rarer, it’s going to become rarer?
Avi: That could be one reason. I think it’s the lure of someone knowing that’s what they want. When they understand the true differences, they’re able to make a choice on what they want. There are some people who have been buying diamonds forever, and they only want a natural or a mined diamond. Then you have other customers who might be price-conscious or whatever the reason may be. Maybe they feel they can get a larger stone for less money. They have option of lab-grown. It’s a personal taste of what people want to go for.
Sharon: What kinds of stones are lab-grown?
Avi: Many gemstones, emeralds, rubies, sapphires, pearls, different things are done now in a laboratory or man-made. The industry has been used to it for a while. I remember when I was much younger, when the first created emeralds, rubies and sapphires came out, and it was a big phenomenon. Everybody was like, “What’s going on? What is this?” There were a lot of naysayers back then for obvious reasons, but with technology, with time, things change. People’s lives change, and we learn to live together. There are still lots of sales going on in natural gemstones, but there are a lot of sales also going on in the created side as well.
Sharon: When you’re talking about emeralds and rubies, you’re not talking about a synthetic stone. You’re talking about a lab-grown stone, right?
Avi: Yes, lab-grown stones. That’s why it goes to back to having a report from a laboratory checking the pieces, so that a customer knows if they bought this, it is what it is or it’s not what it was supposed to be.
Sharon: If I were going to come to your office and look on your desk and see the strategic plan for the next five years, what is in that plan? Besides the fact that nobody knows about whether there’s going to be Covid or not. What is your strategy to grow?
Avi: Some of the things I can share are the things I mentioned, like making our processes and our systems better to handle our customer flows. It’s teaching our people to be better prepared to handle what our customers want. It’s interesting; a lot of my people are saying to me that they want to become gemologists. People have been doing this for so long. They see all the jewelry and the diamonds coming on the table. They get enamored with it, and then they see what the lab does. It builds this excitement and this wanting to learn, to know more. So, I want to be able to feed my people more knowledge.
We’re looking at how we better ourselves for the market. Some things I can’t talk about, of course, but generally it’s about technology, efficiencies, education. Those are some of the things we’re looking to improve on to help us grow in the future.
Sharon: Besides the technical education in gemology, are you training people in service?
Avi: Yeah, lots of training in service, both inside and outside.
Sharon: The customer’s always right, right?
Avi: Most of the time, yes. That’s true.
Sharon: What do you see with the future of sustainability in the jewelry community, in this sector?
Avi: It’s pretty new. It’s still at the early stages, but I see it gaining momentum. As I said before, if we can all do a little better for ourselves, for the environment, for people, for the future, then why not do our part? I think people are seeing that, yeah, it takes effort, but there’s satisfaction with that effort at the end of the day.
We started slowly and it’s catching on. People are telling us stories about what they’re doing, what they’re telling their kids about what they’re doing. They’re excited and proud of what’s going on as well. It’s a buzz you create when everybody gets involved in it. The industry is getting more involved, and I think they want to see what’s possible and what makes sense.
Sharon: Right, I like that word. It is a buzz. What else can you tell us about IGI? What haven’t I asked you that you want to tell us?
Avi: IGI is happy with what’s going on in the industry and wants the industry to continue to do well. We want to be that place people come to. They continue to use us for those services, and I think we’re grateful to be part of this great industry.
Sharon: In terms of IGI, do you consider yourself a powerhouse? A motor prodding the rest of the industry? Are you a leader dragging it behind you? How do you see IGI?
Avi: As a leader dragging it behind. I think IGI serves a very important purpose in the industry being a lab. It’s also about being open to the different things that happen in the industry through the connections I’ve made, the connections that IGI has made. We’ve got a worldwide network, so we are in tune with a lot of different markets around the world and a lot of different levels of the industry. I think we’re probably among the leaders of the industry. We’re looking to see how to continue to be a leader and continue to make the industry prosper and grow.
Sharon: It sounds like a lot of plans.
Avi: It’s a lot of plans, and it’s important. In a way we’re kind of fragmented, but at the end, we’re one big team. It’s not just what IGI does or what my competitor does. It’s about how we can fit into the whole team function because, like I said, it takes everyone to make this grow. The better we work together and put out that message to people, I think the buzz will be created even more from that. Everybody likes to see everyone in unity, working together for shared results and for good results. The industry has done it over the years, and we hope to be part of that movement to make it continue.
Sharon: Avi, thank you so much. It sounds like you have a lot of great stuff going on. I was thinking about how down the line, in 25 years, it will be interesting to see where sustainability is.
Avi: I can’t wait to see it happen. We like to see how things happen over time.
Sharon: Thank you so much.
Avi: Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it and hope to see you again soon.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
Jewelry Journey Podcast – Avi Levy
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Avi Levy
Avi Levy currently serves as President of the International Gemological Institute (IGI) North America. With 30 years of fine jewelry expertise, Avi brings valuable experience to the Institute including diamond sourcing, manufacturing, product development, brand partnerships and wholesale trade to major jewelry retailers. Skilled in building relationships and trust within all areas of the supply chain, his leadership skills and expertise gained from various roles have yielded advantageous results and strengthened key partnerships.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Transcript:
Founded in 1975, the International Gemological Institute (IGI) is the largest independent gemological laboratory worldwide with more than 20 laboratories. Avi Levi leads the North American division of the business, and his goal is to bring this esteemed company into the 21st century. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why he partnered with SCS Global Services to make IGI’s work more sustainable; how IGI is maintaining trust with clients while updating its offerings; and why he wants to educate consumers on the intricacies of natural and lab-grown stones. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Avi Levy, North American President of the International Gemological Institute or IGI, a 45-year-old company. IGI provides the fine jewelry community and consumers with a broad range of services including independent diamond grading reports and laser inscription. Several months ago, IGI announced its collaboration with SCS Global Services to work to offset its carbon emissions by 2022, with intentions to roll this out across IGI’s 20 laboratories worldwide. Avi and his team are bringing a breath of fresh air to this established company, and we’re going to hear all about that today. Avi, welcome to the program.
Avi: Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.
Sharon: So glad to have you. You have a lot going on, and we want to hear all about it. You’ve been in the jewelry industry for several decades. Can you tell us about your experience?
Avi: Sure, I could tell you a little bit. I started pretty much right out of high school. My dad is a diamond manufacturer/cutter, so he was in the business. He got me into the business, and I got interested. I started working retail on 47th Street when I was in college, so it started there. Slowly but surely, I went to different phases of the industry. I learned more about diamonds. I learned more about trading. I learned how to grade diamonds overseas in Israel. I came back, and I started trading, buying and selling diamonds, and little by little, I made it to different levels of the industry. I worked with diamond jewelry manufacturers, so I was able to meet some of the larger retail jewelry chains throughout the country. I also got the pleasure of going overseas to India a few times a year to purchase diamonds. So, I’m pretty well-versed in all different sides of the business. I feel I’ve been a true student of the business.
Sharon: Did you ever cut diamonds?
Avi: I did, but it only lasted for about three or four months. Me and my dad couldn’t make it work, so I had to go, basically. But I got that experience, and it was good. In the beginning, it’s good to learn all different parts of an industry or a certain skillset just to see what you like and to get the basics of everything. It was a great experience.
Sharon: You have fabulous experience. That is an incredible foundation. Tell us about the International Gemological Institute. You’re doing a lot right now. What does it do? This is the first time I’ve heard of it.
Avi: Like you said, we’ve been around for 45 years. For me, when I got the call about IGI, it was like a call to arms in a way, because as I mentioned, I started when I was a kid. I started at a time when the diamond business was in a whole different place. I learned about trust. I learned about reputation. I learned about how to deal with people early on, and those things stuck with me. To me, the diamond business is about trust; it is about reputation. We offer consumers such a beautiful product, so we have to be able to back it up. So, when IGI came calling, for me, it was like a circle back to my roots on the reputation and trust side of things, because what we do is important for the industry, for the wholesaler, for the retailer and for the consumer. We institute that level of trust into people, and we need to do it the right way.
When I came onto IGI, I was asked to look at the organization and see how we could move forward with it. It’s been around for a long time, IGI. We want to be around for 20+ years going into the future. In order to do that, you have to change a few things that are going on with the organization. There are some things that will never change: grading standards, how we grade, why we grade. Those things will always be there, but innovating technology, giving superb customer service, understanding what our customers want and how to achieve difference is important. Since I’ve come on, I’ve helped my staff open their eyes, look further and look out of the box we’ve all been in, just to see how we can be more important to the industry, how our services can be more important, and how we can help consumers at the end of the line trust IGI to give them grading and satisfaction with what they’re buying or purchasing.
Sharon: When they offered you the position or started talking to you about it, was it totally different because it was a corporate environment?
Avi: My history has been creating jewelry, working with teams to create jewelry, working to buy the diamonds, then working with factories overseas to put it together. I was in a whole different side of the business. Coming to the other side in terms of a laboratory was a great learning experience. It’s completing my years in the business, giving me another view of how things are done and why they’re done. It’s very interesting how a laboratory works, the mechanisms that make it work and why people trust us. Those are a few of the things that really interested me to further my knowledge of the industry.
Sharon: Why do you think people trust, and what destroys that trust?
Avi: When we were young, people told us to be careful as you grow in this industry. You build your trust. It takes you years to build trust. It takes you years to build your reputation, and it can all be over in a minute. It happens. It’s how people act. It’s why they do things. A laboratory has to have standards. A laboratory has to have processes. A laboratory has to be able to stand behind the decisions they make and the gradings they put out. We’ve been around for 45 years and, like I said, we want to be around for much longer, so therefore we have to hold true to our standards, put our best foot forward and gain the industry’s trust as well as the consumer’s trust. We’re a true third party. We are interested in what we do. We’re not interested in who we do it with, meaning we’re interested in making sure the grading we do, the reports we publish, the pieces we verify, we’re doing that in the correct manner with the right grading and the right information to the customer.
Sharon: Was that something you changed when you came in?
Avi: Oh, no. IGI’s reputation has been around for a long time. It’s there first and foremost. They’ve done an excellent job all these years. I’m just helping to take it forward. Being in business for 45 years, that’s a long time.
Sharon: Yes, it sure is. When you came in, your first day in the office, did you have a mind for all these ideas, looking at how things were done?
Avi: There was a lot of excitement. For me, the excitement was also the unknown. How am I going to tackle this? What am I going to do? How am I going to work with 90 new people, or, at the time, 70 new people? I took it slow and got to know everybody individually little by little. I talked to people, asked them what they do, who they are, things they’ve seen over the years, things they want. Slowly, you start to feel what’s going on.
With the pandemic, it was interesting. The pandemic forced me to learn the business firsthand. We had a skeleton staff because there were certain things we had to do for some customers. I think there were eight or nine, 10 people max at a time in the office, and that was only two days a week. The other two days, we just needed a few key people in the office. So, I got to learn each step of the business, from taking in the merchandise to going through the processes, printing out reports, proofreading, printing them, seeing all the issues that come with it. Little by little, we started to see the efficiencies we could put into place to make IGI run smoother, a bit more efficiently.
Sharon: Your background isn’t in technology, though.
Avi: It’s not.
Sharon: Was it overwhelming?
Avi: I don’t know if it was overwhelming. Again, it was with open eyes. I came in with open eyes, no past premonitions, no bias, just looking at IGI and at how we can move forward and be of better service. That was on my mind. I had to make that happen, but at first, I had to see how IGI ticks, what makes IGI tick every day, how we work. It was a lot of challenges, a lot of learning. I’m happy to say that two and a half years into it, we are definitely progressing. We’re moving forward. We’re still learning, and we’re looking for new opportunities.
Sharon: The stones you look at, do your customers and dealers send them to you? Do they walk into an office? How does that work?
Avi: It goes both ways. Obviously, people in New York and New Jersey, they can bring things over. People in different parts of the country, they’ll ship the merchandise in, and we’ll take it from there.
Sharon: You’re President of North America. How many divisions are there?
Avi: Currently it’s New York and Los Angeles.
Sharon: So, you’re in charge of basically the whole operation in North America.
Avi: In North America, yes.
Sharon: I know sustainability has become a big issue and very important to your organization.
Avi: It is.
Sharon: You announced your collaboration with SCS Global Services and you’re working to offset your carbon emissions.
Avi: Yes.
Sharon: And you want to roll this across all your labs eventually?
Avi: Correct.
Sharon: Can you tell us who SCS is? Tell us about its initiative.
Avi: SCS is a third-party company that initiates processes for companies to become sustainable carbon-neutral to develop a healthier footprint. We met them three years ago. They came into the industry as outsiders, but they have a lot of experience in different industries: in coffee, in apparel, in other areas in different industries to make them more sustainable. They gathered about 20 people from San Francisco, their headquarters, to tell us about themselves, tell us what they do and why their mission is so important.
I think they won most of the people over in that three-day meeting pretty quickly because our people are of the same mindset, in terms of asking how do we make ourselves better? How do we make our companies better, how do we make our people better and how do we do our part in the big world to make it a little bit greener, a little bit cleaner? To do that in the diamond and jewelry industry was pretty unheard of, and I think it helped to have true professionals from outside the industry, who knew processes with different industries, to come in and help us. I think most of us took it in a very positive light. Two years later, not just us, but a lot of industries are looking at themselves to see what they can do to be part of this initiative. It’s gained steam throughout the industry.
Sharon: What did you change? Did they change the process? Did they look at the diamonds that came in after you looked at them? How did they accept them?
Avi: No, for us, they look at the company, at IGI, our carbon emissions, how much paper we use, what kind of paper we use, what kind of plastic we use. They looked at different areas of the company and gave us options on how to minimize our carbon footprint and how to make it a healthier atmosphere. We’re still learning. Susan, who’s our Chief Marketing Officer here in New York and in North America, she’s taking a class to help further her education so we can understand this whole phenomenon even better.
Sharon: Does IGI do different things now with your paper, with your reports, with your plastic?
Avi: We’re trying to limit as much plastic as we can. We use recyclable paper and recyclable plastic wherever possible, and we keep looking to find other areas on how to minimize it. It’s a process. It’s not like you just walk in and turn off the lights and it’s running and good. It’s a process. It’s getting people to think differently as well. We all function a certain way for our lifetimes. To ask people to change is good, but you’ve got to give them reason to and give them steps. That’s what we’re trying to do for our people.
Sharon: How does this impact your customers? Do they care about what you’re doing?
Avi: That’s a great question. I think initially not everybody does, but I think it’s growing. People are looking into this more and more, and they want to make things better. The want things to be cleaner, healthier. Look at all the hybrid tech we have out there: cars to electricity to energy. The world is changing. People say, “Oh, what can you do?” We can do this much. If I can do this much, and you can do that much, and everybody puts it all together, we’ll come out ahead. The sum is always greater together than it is separate.
Sharon: Give me an example of how it impacts your customers. I understand recycling paper and all that, but—
Avi: I think it shows our customers that we’re thinking in a different manner. We’re not thinking the same old way. To do nothing is easy, but to make change, that’s difficult. It’s a process, and not everybody wants to see that process. We’ve had our difficulties, no doubt. We’ve had obstacles. We’re going to, but one day at a time we try to get through it and get to the next phase. I think it shows our customers that we’re willing to change and to try to make things better. Even if it's just a small percentage of what we can do, like I said before, it’s important for everybody to do their part.
Sharon: After you reach a certain level where you’ve achieved a certain amount, is that when you plan to roll it out into your laboratories across the country?
Avi: We went through a good six months last year in this whole process, and we’ve already started to share the good news with our other locations. Little by little, everybody’s looking at themselves and seeing what they can do. I’m pretty sure two of our offices have already reached out to SCS and are in the process of getting themselves set up as well.
Sharon: As part of your sustainability, you’re on the Mercury Free Mining board.
Avi: Yeah.
Sharon: Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Avi: It’s funny how things circulate. Minds tend to move and think with each other. MFM, Mercury Free Mining, came to me from a very different mindset. Ronnie Vanderlinden, who is part of the board, came to me and told me, very simply, they’re looking to see how they can eradicate mercury from the artisanal miner’s process of processing gold in the mines. I think a lot of the bigger mines have already handled this, but there are smaller mines that are still using mercury in their process.
There are other options, but again, it’s about change. It’s about seeing the change through. It’s about explaining to them why it’s so important. People are used to doing things a certain way for a long time. Sometimes they don’t realize the good or the bad anymore, and you have to point it out to them to help them. Toby Pomeroy, this is his vision. He’s the leader on this. It’s his vision that started this company and this mission a while ago. We’re helping support him to get the message across to everybody.
Sharon: Who is Toby Pomeroy?
Avi: I can send you links about him, but he is based on the West Coast. He’s a jewelry expert. He’s been in the industry for a very long time, and this is something that hits close to him. He’s had experiences with artisanal miners over the years, and he sees the need for change. He focused on it and developed this mercury-free mining platform.
Sharon: It’s definitely worthwhile. I can see how it’s an uphill battle until you gain momentum.
Avi: And we are, slowly. We’re gaining momentum. We’re gaining notoriety. We’re attracting more people to this mission. We had a great turnout at the JCK show back in August. Next week, a lot of people are in town because there are different functions going on in the city. We’re going to have another outing and push the message even more.
Sharon: An outing to get together and meet or an outing to a mine?
Avi: No, an outing to meet. It’s going to be here in the city. We’re gathering different vendors, customers, other people who can potentially join the board and help us get this message out there further.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jonathan Wahl
Jonathan Wahl joined 92nd Street Y in July 1999 as director of the jewelry and metalsmithing program in 92Y’s School of the Arts, the largest program of its kind in the nation. He is responsible for developing and overseeing the curriculum, which offers more than 60 classes weekly and 15 visiting artists annually. Jonathan is also responsible for hiring and supervising 25 faculty members, maintaining four state-of-the-art jewelry and metalsmithing studios, and promoting the department locally and nationally as a jewelry resource center.
Named one of the top 10 jewelers to watch by W Jewelry in 2006, Jonathan is an accomplished artist who, from 1994 to 1995, served as artist-in-residence at Hochschule Der Kunst in Berlin, Germany. He has shown his work in the exhibitions Day Job (The Drawing Center), Liquid Lines (Museum of Fine Arts Houston), The Jet Drawings (Sienna Gallery, Lenox MA, and SOFA New York), Formed to Function (John Michael Kohler Arts Center), Defining Craft (American Craft Museum), Markers in Contemporary Metal (Samuel Dorsky Museum of Art), Transfigurations: 9 Contemporary Metalsmiths (University of Akron and tour), and Contemporary Craft (New York State Museum).
Jonathan was awarded the Louis Comfort Tiffany Emerging Artist Fellowship from the Louis Comfort Tiffany Foundation, two New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowships in recognition of "Outstanding Artwork," and the Pennsylvania Society of Goldsmiths Award for "Outstanding Achievement." As part of the permanent collections of The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, The Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, TX, and The Museum of Arts and Design in New York, his work has been reviewed by Art in America (June, 2000), The New York Times (June 2005), and Metalsmith Magazine (1996, 1999, 2000 2002, 2005, 2009); his work was also featured in Metalsmith Magazine's prestigious "Exhibition in Print" (1994 and 1999). Jonathan’s art work can be seen at Sienna Gallery in Lenox, Massachusetts, which specializes in contemporary American and European art work, and De Vera in Soho, New York. His work can also be seen in the publications The Jet Drawings (Sienna Press, 2008), and in three collections by Lark Books: 1,000 Rings, 500 Enameled Objects and 500 Metal Vessels.
Before joining 92Y, Jonathan was, first, director of the jewelry and metalsmithing department at the YMCA's Craft Students League, and later assistant director of the League itself. Mr. Wahl holds a B.F.A. in jewelry and metalsmithing from Temple University's Tyler School of Art and an M.F.A. in metalsmithing and fine arts from the State University of New York at New Paltz. He is a member of the Society of North America Goldsmiths.
Additional Resources:
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Available at TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
With more than 60 jewelry classes offered weekly, the 92nd Street Y’s Jewelry Center is by far the largest program of its kind in the country—and it’s all run by award-winning sculptor, jeweler and artist Jonathan Wahl. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the different relationships he has with jewelry and sculpture; why craftsmanship should be embraced by the art world; and what he has planned for 92Y in 2022. Read the episode transcript here.
Interview with Jonathan Wahl
4/3/22
Sharon: Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Jonathan Wahl, Director of the Jewelry Center at the 92nd Street Y in New York. Jonathan was recently on the podcast, but we had to rush through the description of the many jewelry programs that are going on at the Y. So, I asked him back to tell us about the programs in more detail. Many of them are online and are recorded, so it doesn’t matter where you are in the world. Jonathan, nice to see you again.
Jonathan: Nice to see you, Sharon. Thanks for having me back.
Sharon: You ran through it very quickly at the end because I didn’t realize how much you had to say basically. So, tell us first about your interviews you have with sculptors and jewelers. Tell us about those. Are there any upcoming? Who are the next ones? Give us--
Jonathan: Sure, so the lecture series came out of the pandemic obviously. I think I’ve done about 25 or 30 lectures or interviews so far. The most recent series was a series of three talks about female sculptors who are jewelers or jewelers who are sculptors. As you could tell from our last conversation, I’m really interested in this line be-tween the fields of art, particularly between jewelry and sculpture or fine art and decorative art. So, I was really curious to talk to these three in particular New Yorkers who practice in both fields and it was Joe Platner who is a longtime jeweler in New York City, Michelle Okeldoner(?) whose work was primarily sculpture and also does jewelry and Anna Corey whose work also started in sculpture, but now is primarily a jeweler. So, it was really fascinating to talk to these women artists about how they practice and what inspires them in their practice.
Sharon: And do you have series upcoming more in the spring or summer?
Jonathan: Yup, I’m working on a series about enamel. Enameling seems to be having a re-surgence in our department and I think in jewelry in general, we’re seeing a lot more enamel and a lot more color in metals. So, it will be with a contemporary artist, a historical collection and a contemporary fine jeweler.
Sharon: It sounds very interesting and enamel, at least in the view I see now, is becoming much more popular.
Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, I’m not exactly sure why. I’m really curious. I think maybe it’s happy; it’s colorful; it’s as close to painting, I guess, as you can get in jewelry in a way.
Sharon: It’s such a skill if you do it right. It’s an artistry. Jewelry is an art, but it’s such an artistry within the art in a sense.
Jonathan: Absolutely, you can, as we say, shake and bake and get color on metal pretty easily. So, you can get pretty direct results and get color on your metal pretty simply. Of course, to be an expert enamellist, to practice grisaille or cloisonne or brioche, you need to become master craftsman. So, there’s a lot to dig into.
Sharon: So, do we need to keep our eyes on the spring session, the summer session or when?
Jonathan: It’s going to be the summer session. I think it’s going to take place in June.
Sharon: O.K., I look forward to it.
Jonathan: I’m not sure of the dates, but it’s coming and you’ll see it. Most of the talks so far are on our archives at 92Y.org in the jewelry center page.
Sharon: Yeah, I know there are some that I’d really like to go look at that I missed.
Jonathan: The previous three were with three Brazilian jewelers.
Sharon: Now, you just had an interview with—I don’t know how to say her last name—but she was talking about a Brazilian jeweler, Roberto Burle Marks.
Jonathan: Uhum, correct.
Sharon: But that was separate.
Jonathan: It was part of the Brazilian series because Roberto Burle Marks was a Brazilian.
Sharon: But it wasn’t part of the Sculpture and Artist Series; it was a different series.
Jonathan: Correct, right, they were three and three.
Sharon: There’s a lot going on. So, tell us about this jewelry residency. I was just looking at your Instagram and the ads for it. So, tell us about it.
Jonathan: The Jewelry Residency Program, it would be its fifth year, but we took two years off because of the pandemic. The Jewelry Residence Program is something that I’ve always dreamed of doing and I’m so happy that it’s back on. What it provides is a studio apartment here in our facility, 24-hour access to one of our studios and air-fare to and from New York City from anywhere in the world.
Sharon: Are people applying now? When does it start?
Jonathan: Yes, the applications are open until April 15. We extended the deadline.
Sharon: Does it start in September--
Jonathan: Sorry, it’s August 18-September 19, if I’m not mistaken. That’s the residency program.
Sharon: And you get applications from all over the world or what?
Jonathan: We had applications from fifty countries in 2019. I would love to have applications from farther afield. Most of them come from western Europe. We’re still trying to figure out how we reach populations in Asia or sub-Saharan Africa or Africa in gen-eral or even more in South America. It’s been kind of hard to get to some of those areas. I’m working on a trip to Korea which you know about, so I sent it to all the artists that we’re going to visit in Korea. So, I hope we get some applications from Korea and I also just was in contact with an artist who’s a Ukrainian jeweler and she has started on Facebook to try and raise money and funds and help Ukrainian jewel-ers who’ve been displaced, so of course I’ve shared that residency with her and the opportunity. We would love to support a Ukrainian jeweler and have them here in New York City for a month, particularly if they’re not in a studio, but I’m also looking forward to seeing how we can support a Ukrainian jeweler in general if they are here in New York City.
Sharon: And so it doesn’t matter, a male, female, anybody in between.
Jonathan: It doesn’t matter and it is open to Americans. It is an international jewelry resi-dency, but you are welcome to apply as an American. The reason for the residency is, as I mentioned, to expand New York City’s access to jewelers who don’t maybe normally get here and the type of work that isn’t often shown in New York City, but it’s also for an artist who might not normally be able to come to New York City to come to New York City, but it’s also about why an artist needs to be in New York, what would New York City do for them and that could be for a whole host of reasons and there is a jury panel that I assemble every year that helps me decide who that next person should be.
Sharon: Wow! That sounds pretty competitive, but it’s sounds really worthwhile.
Jonathan: Well, there’s only one spot. Sharon, with funding, we could expand that. So again, if anyone wants to help support a residence. The residency program, I’m completely open to a conversation.
Sharon: Well, I will suggest that people get in touch with you, O.K., or at least send the checks. O.K., so tell us about the travel program to Korea.
Jonathan: I do a trip every other year to somewhere in the world and we have gone to Israel, Italy, Austria, the Czech Republic, India, Japan and this year hopefully to Korea.
Sharon: Wow! That really sounds fabulous.
Jonathan: Yeah, the trips are centered around historical collections and contemporary jewelers and if you’re not familiar with the Korean jewelry scene, it’s really vibrant and really robust. It has its roots in Europe and the United States as well as with Korean tradi-tion. So, I’m really excited to meet these artists who blend a lot of techniques and traditions and they’re doing some really extraordinary work.
Sharon: Well, the Korean artists who have exhibited at the international shows have really been creative and really amazing.
Jonathan: Really strong work, yeah.
Sharon: So, the last I talked to you, I just wanted to double check. Are you still thinking you’ll be going October 6, whenever?
Jonathan: Yeah, that’s the tentative plan. The one thing. Korea has lifted quarantine restric-tions which is great, but groups are still restricted to six or fewer, so it’s a bit of a problem for our group which is about fifteen people. So, I’m a little bit on edge about that. I’m waiting to see if that will change.
Sharon: Wow! Six or fewer, that’s pretty--
Jonathan: That would make going out to dinner a problem and just going to into groups and staggering them, it’s like taking two trips frankly.
Sharon: Yeah, no, it sounds like a lot of logistics.
Jonathan: With that being said, I have a trip to the southwest in the wings for the end of October. If for some reason the gods are not with us to go to Korea, I’m putting together a trip to San Jose and Taos.
Sharon: There’s lots to see there.
Jonathan: Uhum.
Sharon: So, you also have a program for highschoolers to teach them about the jewelry industry. Tell us about that.
Jonathan: Yeah, this is certainly a program that’s been a dream of mine for a long time. It is a program that is offered to Title 1 art and design school in New York City and Title One schools tend to service underserve populations in general in New York City and most of those students wouldn’t normally get access to a jewelry studio in high school. Most kids don’t get access to a jewelry studio in high school in general. Particularly this population most likely wouldn’t be taking a class at the 92nd Street Y as a fee-for-service program for obvious reasons. So, this is a program to get kids who would normally be in the studio into the studio and expose them to the tech-niques and materials and offer them a view into a possible career path, if that’s something they would like to pursue. We’re coordinating with New York City Jewel-ry Week who has organized wonderful guest speakers with these kids and with NYCJWM and the Department of Education, are able to offer paid internships this summer which is really exciting. It’s the first year of this program, so we’re still find-ing our footing and I know there are going to be some kids who decide to go into the next year and I think particularly the juniors and seniors will hopefully take advan-tage of some of these opportunities and perhaps go deeper into the field.
Sharon: It sounds like a great opportunity, yeah.
Jonathan: Even master soldering to a teenager, regardless of whether or not you go into the field as a career, it’s a great skill to have.
Sharon: I don’t know that much about New York and the school system, but I would assume that there are not a lot of opportunities like this that are going on in New York.
Jonathan: To my knowledge, there is not a functioning jewelry studio in any of the public high schools in New York City.
Sharon: Now, that’s really amazing to me. Would a shop class teach jewelry and metal-smithing?
Jonathan: To my knowledge, there aren’t any functioning jewelry programs classes in New York City public schools right now and we don’t have trade schools for jewelry in America. There are art schools and we’ve talked about how that’s always the best fit if you’re going into the trade.
Sharon: It sounds like a program that would really take off. So, what else should we know about—and what else is coming up? I know you have some great—you’ve had Tony Greenbaum teaching a class who teaches about modernist jewelry.
Jonathan: Yup and Bella Neyman just finished a great series on costume jewelry that was really fascinating.
Sharon: Uhuh, I do have to say it was great. I did listen to it. It was great because it was in Los Angeles and it was at seven in the morning which is usually not the time I’m up to watch class. So, I watched the recorded classes which was great to have.
Jonathan: Yeah, and we’re working on our fall programming, so I’m not exactly sure what the talks will be, but I’m sure there will be one. I’m working on another few initiatives—well, one initiative in particular that is not confirmed yet, but I would like to also create a younger designer’s award or fund in which we would help support a new jeweler and help them with classes and to continue their education as well as men-torship through our faculty and through our connections. One of the huge leaps is to go from undergrad or grad in these very supportive environments and then to be let loose to fly free. Many people hone their skills while working for another artist doing benchwork, but I would like to help an artist or a young designer home their skills through our classes and through our faculty mentorship and our professional mentorship opportunities. So, I’m working on that. I would love to see it happen by the fall, but TBD.
Sharon: O.K., well, you can keep us posted. I know you have so much going on, so thank you so much. I just envision you juggling so many balls.
Jonathan: There’s always a lot going on as well as continuing to support the programing that we do on an ongoing basis here. Every day, every week--there’s a class going on right outside my office right now, one of three or four classes going on right now in the center. We do offer over fifty classes a week for jewelry alone, so that in itself is enough of a job--
Sharon: For hands-on jewelry.
Jonathan: Hands-on jewelry, hands-on making. To my right, there’s a wax covering class going on. To my left, there’s a jewelry two class going on. Further down the road is a goldsmithing class and then—yeah, I can’t remember what’s in the fourth studio right now, but the most pressing thing is if you are interested or know someone who might apply for the Jewelry Residency Program, I’d strongly encourage them to do so. We’ve got some wonderful press from Town and Country Magazine last year and in the cut from New York Magazine, so there are some great opportunities.
Sharon: It sounds like it and since the deadline is right around the corner, April 15, people need to get on it.
Jonathan: But it’s easy. It’s a submittable application. You upload your images. You make the case for why you want to be in New York City and away you go.
Sharon: I don’t know. That still involves somebody sitting down and really putting their brainpower behind it.
Jonathan: Get on it, people.
Sharon: Jonathan, thank you so much for being here today.
Jonathan: You’re welcome.
Sharon: And we’ll keep everyone posted on what else is going on at the Y.
Jonathan: Thank you, Sharon, it’s always a pleasure. Hope to see you soon.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jonathan Wahl
Jonathan Wahl joined 92nd Street Y in July 1999 as director of the jewelry and metalsmithing program in 92Y’s School of the Arts, the largest program of its kind in the nation. He is responsible for developing and overseeing the curriculum, which offers more than 60 classes weekly and 15 visiting artists annually. Jonathan is also responsible for hiring and supervising 25 faculty members, maintaining four state-of-the-art jewelry and metalsmithing studios, and promoting the department locally and nationally as a jewelry resource center.
Named one of the top 10 jewelers to watch by W Jewelry in 2006, Jonathan is an accomplished artist who, from 1994 to 1995, served as artist-in-residence at Hochschule Der Kunst in Berlin, Germany. He has shown his work in the exhibitions Day Job (The Drawing Center), Liquid Lines (Museum of Fine Arts Houston), The Jet Drawings (Sienna Gallery, Lenox MA, and SOFA New York), Formed to Function (John Michael Kohler Arts Center), Defining Craft (American Craft Museum), Markers in Contemporary Metal (Samuel Dorsky Museum of Art), Transfigurations: 9 Contemporary Metalsmiths (University of Akron and tour), and Contemporary Craft (New York State Museum).
Jonathan was awarded the Louis Comfort Tiffany Emerging Artist Fellowship from the Louis Comfort Tiffany Foundation, two New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowships in recognition of "Outstanding Artwork," and the Pennsylvania Society of Goldsmiths Award for "Outstanding Achievement." As part of the permanent collections of The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, The Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, TX, and The Museum of Arts and Design in New York, his work has been reviewed by Art in America (June, 2000), The New York Times (June 2005), and Metalsmith Magazine (1996, 1999, 2000 2002, 2005, 2009); his work was also featured in Metalsmith Magazine's prestigious "Exhibition in Print" (1994 and 1999). Jonathan’s art work can be seen at Sienna Gallery in Lenox, Massachusetts, which specializes in contemporary American and European art work, and De Vera in Soho, New York. His work can also be seen in the publications The Jet Drawings (Sienna Press, 2008), and in three collections by Lark Books: 1,000 Rings, 500 Enameled Objects and 500 Metal Vessels.
Before joining 92Y, Jonathan was, first, director of the jewelry and metalsmithing department at the YMCA's Craft Students League, and later assistant director of the League itself. Mr. Wahl holds a B.F.A. in jewelry and metalsmithing from Temple University's Tyler School of Art and an M.F.A. in metalsmithing and fine arts from the State University of New York at New Paltz. He is a member of the Society of North America Goldsmiths.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available at TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
With more than 60 jewelry classes offered weekly, the 92nd Street Y’s Jewelry Center is by far the largest program of its kind in the country—and it’s all run by award-winning sculptor, jeweler and artist Jonathan Wahl. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the different relationships he has with jewelry and sculpture; why craftsmanship should be embraced by the art world; and what he has planned for 92Y in 2022. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Jonathan Wahl, Director of the Jewelry Center of the 92nd Street Y in New York City. The program is the largest of its kind in the country. In addition to his life in jewelry, Jonathan is an award-winning artist whose work is in the permanent collections of prestigious museums. Welcome back.
When do you have time to work on your jewelry?
Jonathan: I’m here Monday through Wednesday in the studio here. Then I’m in my studio the rest of the time, so Thursday, Friday, Saturdays and Sundays.
Sharon: Your home studio or a studio at the Y?
Jonathan: No, it’s not here. It’s in Brooklyn. I wouldn’t be able to work here. People would be finding me. No, I maintain a studio in Brooklyn. That’s where I’ve done all my work basically for the past 25 years.
Sharon: Tell us about your work. I was reading about you. You have a whole series of different things, drawings, collections.
Jonathan: Lest I forget, I have had a jewelry line. In 2005—and I’ll get to the larger bodies of work—when I moved to New York, my work was primarily sculpture. It was the tinware. It became the oversize tinware. I got a Tiffany fellowship which gave me a nice chunk of cash, and I made a series of work based on Frederic Remington, a series called Cowboys and Unicorns. I made a series of tasseled heads for this exhibition. It took about a year. There were many bodies of work, like Aztec Astronauts, which is inspired by Jared Diamond’s book, “Guns, Germs, and Steel.” There’s no jewelry in it at all, but it was interesting. I had a wonderful Foundation for the Arts fellowship for Cowboys and Unicorns. I had this Tiffany fellowship. I thought I was hot to trot. I was an artist, but because I’ve also been very self-directed in my work, I have made choices on my own, and I certainly hadn’t thought of the larger picture, like, “Who am I marketing to?”
At one point, I felt like maybe I should do something different. I saw these people putting jewelry lines together and I thought, “Well, let me try that. I’m going to throw together a jewelry line.” I did put together a jewelry line in 2004 and 2005, and it got a lot of press. Barneys called and Bergdorf called. It was exciting and, true to myself, I looked at this opportunity and thought, “What they’re asking for sounds like I’m going to have to start a real business.” Between my role here as Director of the Jewelry Center and my studio practice, I wasn’t sure I wanted to run a full-time jewelry business.
What this position here affords me is the time and space to work in my studio on what I want to make. I thought that if I put together a jewelry line, that was a different kind of hustle, and a hustle that was going to take over. As a consequence, I declined Barneys and Bergdorf. I did sell my line at De Vera in New York, which is a much more boutique, gorgeous store that has since moved. Interestingly enough, launching the jewelry line brought me to drawing. People who knew me and knew my work as a sculptor, when I said I’d launched a jewelry line, to put it politely, they looked confused. I’ve said this in many interviews: a jeweler in the art world, people don’t really get. An artist who makes jewelry is different than a jeweler who makes art, may I say.
Sharon: That’s interesting.
Jonathan: I think that has changed. It has changed to some extent, but it’s different. It’s a one-way street. A potter and a sculptor, interesting, particularly with clay being very hot right now. A painter and a bartender makes sense; people get that. Anyway, I found this look of confusion quite perplexing. I started these large drawings, renderings of jet jewelry. I was working on a series of drawings about jewelry, about history, about my love for history, and I happened upon jet jewelry. I thought it was so out of the ordinary: monochromatic, at times really epoch-shifting in terms of what it was. So, I decided to start drawing these objects to take them out of the realm of jewelry and present them to the viewer as an object. Rendered large, they took on a completely different identity. It paralleled my experience of having this conversation with people saying I’m a jeweler and a sculptor. I thought, “If I present them with these drawings that are straight-up portraits of jewelry, maybe they’ll think differently about what those edges are about or what those lines are, what those determinations are.”
Sharon: That’s interesting about people not getting a jeweler as a painter or an artist. That’s what you said, right?
Jonathan: I wish I could deny it. Again, this is 20 or 15 or 17 years ago; I can’t remember. Things have changed a lot in the art world. I’ll probably get in trouble for this; I don’t know if any of the Whitney curators are going to hear this, but the Whitney, one of my favorite museums, had an exhibition of artists who employ craft, I think. It was all artists who made objects or used material that represented craft in some way. It was such an artist’s use of craft, and done in a way that was pure aesthetics and abstraction, which was such a different experience with respect to the materials that I think a craftsperson has. I also find that curators are really only looking at artists who use craft techniques or craft materials from this artistic, old-school, may I say modernist perspective.
I truly mean that because it was fascinating to see how a fine art museum presented craft in this way. To me, it reiterated how these fields are viewed, certainly from each corner of the art world. I found the show at the Whitney really underwhelming in terms of how they represented craft. Just because you use yarn doesn’t mean it’s craft. That’s the takeaway. I think that represents this weird, one-way street or one-way mirror of how crafts and art are viewed together. Martin Puryear was not in that show.
Sharon: Pardon?
Jonathan: Martin Puryear, whose work definitely involves craftsmanship. He wasn’t in that exhibition. There were people who I thought could have been in that exhibition to represent how craft is employed in the fine art world and would have made the statement better.
Sharon: So, what is craft? It always seems to me the question that’s has no answer. How do you know, when you’re looking at something, whether it’s craft or fine art or jewelry made with yarn? What’s the difference? Not difference, but how do you separate it?
Jonathan: I think it’s many times subjective. To that point, the curators at the Whitney could have put whatever they wanted and called it craft, but I think when you see craft, you know it. I think you really do. I think their lines can be crossed. I think there’s craft that’s art, and I think there’s art that’s craft, but for myself, I know it when I see it.
I think it also depends on how you employ the materials and for what end. I’ve been thinking about this recently. Craft was never really thought of as espousing an agenda other than its function. That was how it started, but now in some ways, the art world is looking at craft that explores itself beyond its function. It’s making social commentary and is actually functioning in the way fine art would have explained itself, as material subjugated to the thought process of the artist. Craftsmen can be both, explaining or using functional materiality. They can also use a fine arts strategy, if they’re making a commentary or going beyond the object’s functionality into a realm that makes you think about the object differently. That is more of a fine arts strategy. So, it gets really sticky.
Sharon: It’s one of those questions. I’m thinking about craft in jewelry. I’m thinking about when you were in camp, the lanyards you would make, the necklaces you’d make with plastics. I guess you could call it a type of craft jewelry.
Jonathan: For sure. I don’t think craftsmen should be offended by lanyard jewelry. That’s how you start. It’s weaving; it’s one of the most basic weaving skills. Voice that history. Those are old skills. That’s how we built civilization. Believe in that. We wouldn’t be here without those skills. Don’t be afraid of that. I think my own jewelry journey, if you will, has been influenced by these experiences. I love jewelry. I love objects. I love technique. I love skill. I’m so in awe of people who can make, who can really fabricate something. It takes skill. It takes work. It takes focus.
I love jewelry. I wear one ring and a watch. I change my ring up whenever I feel like that. They’re mostly rings I’ve made, but they’re a specific type of ring. Apart from my look in the 80s, I’m a relatively conservative-looking guy, so I wear jewelry that reflects the aesthetics of myself. It tends to be kind of traditional, so I have no problem with great jewelry that has a great stone, that’s made well, that some would consider traditional. I’m O.K. with that. You know what? Wear whatever kind of jewelry makes you feel right.
I love art jewelry and I think it’s important in pushing the boundaries or the materiality of the field. I’m happy to see and support that. I love going to SCHMUCK. I’m always blown away when I see what’s happening in the world of contemporary jewelry. I think contemporary or art jewelry, the field is also changing. I have to say everything’s moving more towards the middle in a way, whether it’s contemporary jewelry, studio jewelry or art jewelry. When I look at work today, it’s all moving a little bit towards the middle, which is fascinating. But when it comes to jewelry, I don’t have any problem with good jewelry, period. I love good jewelry.
Sharon: Big stones are nice.
Jonathan: I’m just saying good jewelry, however you classify jewelry, I like jewelry.
Sharon: Why are things moving towards the middle? Why do you think that? Is that part of the ethos of the country, or that people don’t want to be extreme? They don’t want purple hair anymore?
Jonathan: With all that being said, the generation that’s coming up now wants to have purple hair, absolutely. I look at the trends that are going on right now, and I think of myself in art school in the high 80s with my hoop earrings and my dyed red hair and my capri pants and my corny shoes and my vests and yada, yada, yada. I look at this younger generation thinking, “Wow, it’s coming back around again, interesting.” Maybe I talk out of two sides of my mouth, but I think in general, the bulk of those fields are moving a little bit closer together. I think there’s an appreciation in the art jewelry world for techniques and processes that might not have been so accepted 10 or 20 years ago. I think there’s an appreciation all around. I think I see contemporary jewelry making gestures that might have only happened in the art jewelry world 10 or 20 years ago.
Sharon: You also talk about the rift between fine art and jewelry. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Jonathan: I’ve got to say, I’ve met some great fine art collectors in New York and their jewelry has really stunk. I find it really funny when I see people who’ve got a great dress on and have a great art collection and mundane jewelry. It’s the last thing that people think about sometimes. Although, the one person I’ll say that always bucks the trend is Lindsay Pollock, who has great jewelry and has great art and knows great art.
Sharon: Who? I’m sorry; I didn’t hear.
Jonathan: Lindsay Pollock, who used to be an editor at Art Forum. Now she also works for the Whitney Museum of Art, I think, as Director of Communications. I’m not sure, but she’s a wonderful collector.
Sharon: And she has great jewelry.
Jonathan: Yes, and she knows the art world really well. Your question; please repeat it.
Sharon: The rift between fine art and jewelry. Is there a rift?
Jonathan: There’s a difference. I think for so long people were trying to justify themselves, so people got defensive. Now people are starting to own what they do and who they are without the defense: “I’m not an artist, I’m a craftsperson” or “I’m a craftsperson, not an artist.” I think there’s less apprehension about that now in terms of owning those fields. This is a conversation had by many people, but when modernism took its toll on craft, it stepped up its identity in many ways. I think since then, craftsmen and jewelers have been trying to figure out their way back to be on par with the rest of the arts. I think for a long time, because it wasn’t modern art or contemporary art, there was a real apprehension about how we define artwork.
I think about how jewelry was, for a long time, just photographed on a white background so it reads as an object, like you’re presenting it like a little sculpture. For many years, that’s how it was presented. I find that representative of how we explain the work we were making. When you saw it, you generally saw it sitting on nothing except white, in a void, outside of any wearability or reference to the person, which I get. But when you think about that, for me, it has resonance. I also think that’s kind of who we are and what we do. I think that’s changing to some extent, but the art world and the craft world have been trying to figure out the relationship for a while.
Sharon: Do you make jewelry now?
Jonathan: I do. I just made a ring for myself with a beautiful piece of lapis that I came across. It’s very plain and modernist. I had an old necklace from my former landlord who passed away and left it to me. I melted down this necklace, I milled the jewelry, I rolled down the sheet and I made a half-round wire that I put through the mill again so it was more like a trapezoid and set it again. Man, I was a jeweler for a day. I love good jewelry, and I like to represent.
Sharon: You like to represent? What do you mean?
Jonathan: I like to represent the field with a good piece of jewelry.
Sharon: Wow! You made the sheet metal and then you rolled your wire. The first time I saw somebody rolling wire, I thought, “You could buy wire. Why would anybody roll it?”
Jonathan: One great thing is I didn’t have to buy new gold. Another great thing is I’m recycling the gold. I recycle, recycle, recycle whenever possible. I worked it all the way down, but I do not have a jewelry line. I rarely make jewelry on commission. Most of my studio practice is focused in other ways, although as I’ve been drawing for the past 12 years, I recently picked up my tin shears again. I have actually been making more tinwork, which is also reflective of our current state of politics and our country again. It’s been fascinating to work in metal again, so stay tuned.
Sharon: How does it reflect where we are as a country or politically?
Jonathan: I’m making tinware again, and I think a lot of what’s in question right now in our country is what is traditional? Who are Americans? There’s a lot of questioning about do you fit, do you belong, what are those parameters, how are you judged as an American or not as an American. The painted tin I’m making right now is so understood as a traditional object and a traditional way of making. Mixing and presenting that work within this very traditional material and history of making is, again, a metaphor for traditionality. The viewer automatically looks at this thing and things it’s an original object. It’s meant to look very traditional, although right now I’m working on a six-foot-by-four-foot painted stenciled decal tray, which, after a few minutes of looking at it, you will know is definitely not from the 19th century. But again, the techniques and the feeling and the look are traditional, I find that that’s what we’re questioning right now. We’re questioning what is traditional. What are these traditions?
The more I dig into these traditions, particularly in painted tinware—Japanware is what it was called. It was meant to imitate Japanese lacquerware. It had nothing to do with America. Another iteration is painted tinware that comes from a German and Scandinavian aesthetic, also not traditional American. So, these objects that you’d see in a folk museum and be like, “Yeah, Ohio, 1840, I got it,” these traditions and materials were not traditional until they became traditional. There’s a lot of this material culture history that I find fascinating. It’s very layered for me. I hope it’s as interesting to the viewer. I have never really found the right format for many of my ideas or questions that fit into jewelry, and that’s one of those cruxes. I’ve never found the right way for me to use jewelry or engage in jewelry with the same intents that I have in other materials or formats.
Sharon: What do you mean exactly? It doesn’t fit into a category?
Jonathan: No, I can be really political with this tinware. I’ve never figured out how to get the same effect, with the same feeling, in jewelry. I find, for me, the wearing of jewelry is the great part of it, and I don’t want my jewelry to say the same thing as my tinware. This is personal: I don’t want my jewelry to work the same way as this giant tinware piece does, because I like this ring that fits on my finger. I love it, and I love when I get compliments on it. I think jewelry is special. It’s great because we wear it.
As a sidenote, it was fascinating that during the pandemic, jewelry took off. Sales of jewelry took off. All my friends in the field of luxury jewelry and studio jewelry, they had great years. Jewelry is the stuff you take with you. Jewelry is the stuff you wear. Jewelry is the intimate stuff, and I think it was fascinating to know that in this time of extreme stress and trouble, people were going to jewelers to buy these things they could hold and keep and literally run with it if they had to. There is this intimacy of jewelry that people sought out, and that’s special. It doesn’t exist in other places. Those are the kinds of things, the resonance, that I want to embrace and love about jewelry and that I will not run away from.
One of the reasons why I started even playing around with images of jewelry, which led me to the drawings, is because I did this class at the Met called Into the Vaults. We went through all these different departments of the Met, jewelry and old jewelry. I came across the story of the Hannebery Pearls, which were pearls that were given to Catherine de Medici from her uncle, who was the Pope. This string of pearls went through the Hanoverians and then eventually into the British Crown Jewels. I thought, “Wow, if this string of pearls could talk, what we would know. What has it seen?” I was fooling around with this image of a gem, a ring that I had Photoshopped a historical scene from a movie on top of, so it almost looked like this gem was reflecting what it saw. I thought, “Wow, wouldn’t it be amazing if there was a ring from ancient Greece that was passed down every generation until now, and that ring was held and worn by 200 generations?” I don’t know how many generations that would be. That intimacy and history of an object doesn’t exist in other places in the same way, where it’s worn and carried with it. There’s something about the intimacy of jewelry and the history that it can be embraced in a specific way that I really love.
Sharon: It’s something very different and novel. I don’t know if it’s been done already.
Jonathan: I have an idea for a novel. I’ll talk about it off-camera. We should talk about it. It’s about that same kind of story, a will to survive.
Sharon: All right. Jonathan, thank you so much for talking with us today.
Jonathan: You’re welcome.
Sharon: I expect an invitation to the opening of the 92nd Street Y in Los Angeles. I can’t wait.
Jonathan: In the meantime, I hope you can come with us to Korea. As you know, I do trips around the world. South Korea is on the books, and there are a number of other wonderful things happening. The only residency for jewelry in New York City, called the JAIR, Jewelry Artist in Residence, that’s happening this summer. Applications are open on our website. We had applications from 50 countries in 2019. It has been suspended since the pandemic.
Another little sidenote: I’m excited about a program called Team Gems, which is a fully-funded program for high school kids in New York City, Title 1 high schools in New York City. It’s a fully-funded program for kids to get experience in jewelry that they wouldn’t normally have, and will maybe create a pathway for a career in jewelry outside the academic model. I hope I’m going to be able to tell you more about it, but it’s the first year and it’s very exciting. Also, keep your ears open for my new series of talks coming up. I think this topic is going to be about enamel, and then hopefully a series in June in honor of Pride Month. A lot’s going on at the Jewelry Center.
Sharon: Well, thank you for being here. We want to hear more about it in the future. Thank you so much, Jonathan. We greatly appreciate it.
Jonathan: Thank you, it’s such a pleasure. Be well.
Sharon: You, too.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jonathan Wahl
Jonathan Wahl joined 92nd Street Y in July 1999 as director of the jewelry and metalsmithing program in 92Y’s School of the Arts, the largest program of its kind in the nation. He is responsible for developing and overseeing the curriculum, which offers more than 60 classes weekly and 15 visiting artists annually. Jonathan is also responsible for hiring and supervising 25 faculty members, maintaining four state-of-the-art jewelry and metalsmithing studios, and promoting the department locally and nationally as a jewelry resource center.
Named one of the top 10 jewelers to watch by W Jewelry in 2006, Jonathan is an accomplished artist who, from 1994 to 1995, served as artist-in-residence at Hochschule Der Kunst in Berlin, Germany. He has shown his work in the exhibitions Day Job (The Drawing Center), Liquid Lines (Museum of Fine Arts Houston), The Jet Drawings (Sienna Gallery, Lenox MA, and SOFA New York), Formed to Function (John Michael Kohler Arts Center), Defining Craft (American Craft Museum), Markers in Contemporary Metal (Samuel Dorsky Museum of Art), Transfigurations: 9 Contemporary Metalsmiths (University of Akron and tour), and Contemporary Craft (New York State Museum).
Jonathan was awarded the Louis Comfort Tiffany Emerging Artist Fellowship from the Louis Comfort Tiffany Foundation, two New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowships in recognition of "Outstanding Artwork," and the Pennsylvania Society of Goldsmiths Award for "Outstanding Achievement." As part of the permanent collections of The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, The Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, TX, and The Museum of Arts and Design in New York, his work has been reviewed by Art in America (June, 2000), The New York Times (June 2005), and Metalsmith Magazine (1996, 1999, 2000 2002, 2005, 2009); his work was also featured in Metalsmith Magazine's prestigious "Exhibition in Print" (1994 and 1999). Jonathan’s art work can be seen at Sienna Gallery in Lenox, Massachusetts, which specializes in contemporary American and European art work, and De Vera in Soho, New York. His work can also be seen in the publications The Jet Drawings (Sienna Press, 2008), and in three collections by Lark Books: 1,000 Rings, 500 Enameled Objects and 500 Metal Vessels.
Before joining 92Y, Jonathan was, first, director of the jewelry and metalsmithing department at the YMCA's Craft Students League, and later assistant director of the League itself. Mr. Wahl holds a B.F.A. in jewelry and metalsmithing from Temple University's Tyler School of Art and an M.F.A. in metalsmithing and fine arts from the State University of New York at New Paltz. He is a member of the Society of North America Goldsmiths.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Available at TheJewelryJourney.com
Transcript:
With more than 60 jewelry classes offered weekly, the 92nd Street Y’s Jewelry Center is by far the largest program of its kind in the country—and it’s all run by award-winning sculptor, jeweler and artist Jonathan Wahl. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the different relationships he has with jewelry and sculpture; why craftsmanship should be embraced by the art world; and what he has planned for 92Y in 2022. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Jonathan Wahl, Director of the Jewelry Center at the 92nd Street Y in New York City. The program is the largest of its kind in the country. In addition to his life in jewelry, Jonathan is an award-winning artist whose work is in the permanent collections of prestigious museums. It has been exhibited nationally and internationally. We’ll hear more about his jewelry journey today and how art fits into that. Jonathan, welcome to the program.
Jonathan: Thank you, Sharon. It’s a pleasure to be here. It’s a pleasure to see you.
Sharon: It’s nice to see you. Hopefully next time, it’ll be in person.
Jonathan: I would love that.
Sharon: Jonathan, tell us about your jewelry journey. How did you get to jewelry? Was that where you originally started out?
Jonathan: Recently I’ve been doing a lot of interviews myself with artists around the world—virtually since the pandemic—as Director of the Jewelry Center, and one of the questions I always ask them is “How did you find your way to jewelry?” It’s one of the questions I love to be asked because, at least for myself, it was interesting. I think all of us start out as artists, unless we’re born into a jewelry family. Everyone learns how to draw. Everyone paints on their own. Maybe they have classes in high school. If you’re lucky, you have a jewelry class in high school. I didn’t, so like many people, I discovered jewelry in college at Tyler School of Art, which has one of the best jewelry programs in the country, but I didn’t know jewelry existed until I went to art school.
When I went to art school, I thought I was going to be a graphic designer. Being the son of a banker and coming from a prep school, I figured I was going to be an artist, but I had to make a living. I wasn’t going to be a painter, so I was thinking I was going to be a graphic designer when I grew up. At the college, I discovered jewelry in my sophomore year. Stanley Lechtzin said to me—I’ll never forget it—“After you graduate you could design, if you wanted, costume jewelry in New York City,” and I thought, “That sounds kind of exotic and fun in New York City.” That’s how my jewelry journey really began, in an elective class as a sophomore at Tyler School of Art.
Sharon: Where is Tyler? I’m not familiar with it.
Jonathan: In Philadelphia. It’s part of Temple University.
Sharon: And Stanley Lechtzin, is he one of the professors there? I don’t know that name.
Jonathan: Stanley Lechtzin really put the program on the map. He’s in collections internationally. He pioneered the use of electroforming in individual objects. Electroforming was a commercial process used throughout the country for many different industrial applications, but Stanley figured out how to finetune it for the individual artist. His work has recently had some new-found appreciation because of the aesthetics from the 60s and 70s that are also coming back into vogue. His pieces are extraordinary.
Sharon: Before you came to the Y, did you design jewelry? Did you do art? Did you come home from your banking job and work on that stuff?
Jonathan: My father was a banker. I was not a banker. The closest I got to banking was working at a casino in Atlantic City one summer. My family has a house in Ocean City, New Jersey, so I could get to Atlantic City. I had to count a bank of anywhere between $30,000 and $70,000 a night. That’s the closest I got to being a banker.
I quickly then moved to London. This was the summer of my senior year after Tyler. After I graduated from Tyler, I moved to London briefly and worked for a crafts gallery in northern London. Then I decided I wanted to go to graduate school. I came back for about a year to work towards applying to graduate school, which ultimately became SUNY New Paltz. I graduated Tyler in 1990, so most of my undergraduate years were in the 80s. If you’re familiar with 80s jewelry, it was no holds barred. It was any kind of jewelry you wanted. My work—or at least my practice—quickly started to veer away from jewelry and towards objects and what I would call small sculpture. My choice to go SUNY New Paltz was specific because I didn’t really want to make jewelry, but I was interested in the field and decorative arts, the material culture of jewelry and metalsmithing. That’s what I pursued while I was in graduate school. I was recreating early American tinware about my experience as a gay American at that time. I wish there were visuals included, but that’s what I was doing at SUNY New Paltz.
Sharon: How did you find that material?
Jonathan: The tinware was a metaphor for America, for traditionalism. The pieces were metaphors for the function or dysfunction of America. These objects were a little perverse, a little sublime and really honest about how frustrated I felt about being an American and growing up in Philadelphia during the bicentennial. I thought life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was for everybody, but I found myself not really able to access the full extent of that saying, like many people in our country even today. But I’m happy to report that a piece from that era was just acquired by the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston. I’m thrilled that the older work is getting some interest. There’s some interest from the New York Historical Society, which is not finalized yet, but it’s interesting to see that work with new eyes 20-some years later.
Sharon: Congratulations!
Jonathan: When I was in Germany, my partner at the time was finishing his master’s degree, and I was an artist in residence there at the Hochschule der Künste, which is now the Academy of Art, I think it’s called. That was an interesting experience because Europeans in general, and Germans in particular, approach craft differently. They have a much longer and supportive tradition of craft of all kinds, so when they saw my tinware, it was a little confusing to them. I ended up in a program called small sculpture as an artist in residence because there was no jewelry program at this art university. It was interesting. It was curious.
Sharon: Tell us how you came to jewelry.
Jonathan: Jewelry eventually gets into my story. After leaving Berlin, I moved to New York. I knew I wanted to be a New York artist. That’s the place I had to go. That’s the place I had to find my destiny. I was walking around looking for positions in a gallery, which was what I thought I was supposed to do. I walked into one gallery and the director there said, “I don’t have any gallery work for you, but I’m on the board of a not-for-profit gallery at the YWCA. That’s the home of the Craft Students League. They are looking for a program associate, which pays a ridiculously low hourly wage but has health benefits.” I thought, “O.K., I can do that.”
That’s when I found myself in the not-for-profit arts administration position that was developed into what I do now, at least part time. I was the program coordinator for the Craft Students League, which is unfortunately gone now, but had a wonderful ceramics, jewelry, painting, and book arts department. I ultimately became director of the jewelry studio and metalsmithing studio there, and then I became the assistant director of the whole program before I moved to the 92nd Street Y to become the director of the Jewelry Center here.
Sharon: Did they have an opening? How did you enter the 92nd Street Y?
Jonathan: Yes, there was an opening. There was John Cogswell. The Jewelry Center has some wonderful previous directors. It was Thomas Gentile from the late 60s to mid-70s, who really put this program on the map. He was followed by John Cogswell until the early 90s. Then briefly Shana Kroiz took over. She was between Baltimore and New York, and when she left the department, there was a call for a new director. That’s when I joined the program here.
Sharon: Wow! I didn’t know that Thomas Gentile was one of the—I don’t know if you want to call it the founders, but one of the names that launched it.
Jonathan: Yeah. The program began in 1930 in its earliest form as a class in metalworking and slowly evolved into a few more classes. It became part of the one of the largest WPA programs in the country here at the 92nd Street Y, but it kind of floated along until Thomas came—and Thomas, forgive me if I get this wrong—in the mid-60s, I think, maybe later. He came in and really started to formulate a program of study here. He was the one who really created the Jewelry Center as a center.
Sharon: Was he emphasizing art jewelry or all jewelry?
Jonathan: There was a great book put out by the Museum of Modern Art in the 50s about how to make modern jewelry. Now, I don’t know if the MOMA realized that they put out a book on how to make jewelry, but my point is in New York, I think there was still this idea of the modernist aesthetic and the artist as jeweler or jeweler as artist. I would say that Thomas was focused more on artist-made jewelry, the handmade, the one-of-a-kind object. It was still not looking in any way towards traditional or commercial jewelry.
Sharon: Jonathan, tell us what the 92nd Street Y is, because people may not know.
Jonathan: The 92nd Street Y is a 140-year-old institution here on the Upper East Side of New York City. It is one of New York City’s most important cultural anchors. It has many different facets. We have a renowned lecture series. The November before the pandemic, I remember we had back-to-back Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Lizzo. Wednesday night it was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and Thursday night it was Lizzo. Last night we had Outlander here, and I think we had a full house of 900 people plus 2,000 people online. We also have a world-renowned dance center that has a long history with Martha Graham and Bill T. Jones. In many ways, modern dance coalesced at the 92nd Street Y. The Jewelry Center has had a presence here at the Y since 1930. We have a wonderful ceramic center. We also have one of the most prestigious nursery schools in New York City. You name it.
The 92nd Street Y is a Jewish cultural center. It’s part of the UJA Association, but it’s kind of its own thing. It’s a whole other story about what Ys are and the difference between YWCAs, YMCAs and YM-WHAs, which is what we are, but the 92nd Street Y is really a cultural center.
Sharon: When are you opening your West Coast branch in Los Angeles? Because you have such an incredible number of speakers and programs.
Jonathan: Many of them come from the West Coast. We had Andrew Garfield here the week before last to talk about his amazing performance for a Reel Pieces program with Annette Insdorf. I think that was a full house of 900 people for a performance from “Tick Tick Boom,” which was great. I don’t know when we’re coming to LA. We’re just reemerging from the pandemic here in New York.
Sharon: This is not related to jewelry, but do you think that without the pandemic, you would have gone online to such an extent? Would it have been possible for people around the world, including on the West Coast, to see what’s going on?
Jonathan: The pandemic was the catalyst to do something we’d always thought about, but yes, the pandemic definitely forced us to do it. On March 13, New York City shut down. That Monday, we flipped all of our classes, every single one of our classes in the Art Center, which is about 200 classes, to be virtual. That worked for some classes better than others, obviously for painting and drawing. It was fine for jewelry. It’s tough if you don’t have a studio. What we did through the summer is offer online classes. We still offer online classes to some extent, but my focus is on building back our in-person class schedule, which we’re doing. We’re over about half enrollment now from the pandemic and moving quickly towards three-quarters.
Sharon: Did the people who enrolled in hands-on jewelry classes, did that just stop with the pandemic?
Jonathan: Yes, it stopped from March 2020 until September 2020. In September, we actually opened back up for in-person classes. We wore masks. We were socially distanced. We were unvaccinated. I was taking the subway and it worked. It was slow at first, but I think this process is a part of many people’s lives and this program is so meaningful for so many people. Being in New York, access to a studio is important, and very few people have studios at home. This is not only an important part emotionally of their lives, it’s also literally, physically, an important part of making jewelry their practice.
Sharon: Since you started as director of the program, I know you’ve been responsible for growing it tremendously. Was that one of your goals? Did you have that vision, or there was just so much opportunity? What happened?
Jonathan: All of the above. There was a lot of opportunity. Unfortunately, the Crafts Students League closed shortly after I left. Parsons closed their department. There were a number of continuing education programs that left Manhattan, and this is before the country of Brooklyn was discovered, even though I lived there. There were no schools in Brooklyn, really. The 92nd Street Y became one of the few places to study when I came on.
Also, to my point about studying jewelry in art school, you’re studying to be an artist generally in art school; you’re not really studying to be a jeweler in the way most people understand jewelers to be. Although certainly at Tyler, it was a great technical education and I learned a lot of hard skills, many people, including myself, were not adept at those hard skills. We’re not taught at a trade school, and I found that most of the people who were looking for jewelry classes wanted to make more traditional jewelry than the classes we were offering. Most of our faculty came from art school. There were some amazing people, Bob Ebendorf and Lisa Grounick(?) to name just a few, but as the 90s wore on and the aesthetic changed, I found that people really wanted to learn how to work in gold, how to set a stone. The aesthetics of jewelry shifted. You probably know yourself that the art jewelry world shifted a little bit too. For myself, I wanted to learn more hard skills, and I basically started creating classes that reflected my interests in how to make better wax carvings, how to set a brilliant-cut stone. I can then make that into what I want: studio jewelry, art jewelry, whatever, but those hard skills were lacking.
I’ve said this many times: I don’t know that this program would exist in another city other than New York because there was so much talent here. There were people from the industry here. There were artists who were studio jewelers and art jewelers all at my fingertips. I think that was one of the ways it grew, not because I reduced the perspective of what was being made here, but because I enlarged the perspective of what was being made here or taught here.
Sharon: How did you do that? Did you do that by identifying potential teachers and attracting them? What did you do?
Jonathan: I was lucky to have some wonderful people in New York City at that time. We had a wonderful faculty to begin with, but we also were able to expand the faculty with incredible people who had recently resigned. Pamela Farland, who was a master goldsmith and was the goldsmith at the Metropolitan Museum of Art for many years, was on our stuff. Klaus Burgel, who was trained at the Academy of Munich, was here in New York and came to us as a faculty member. Tovaback Winnick(?), who was a master wax carver and worked for Kieselstein-Cord for many years, came on as well. Some people work here for a shorter period of my time. My good friend, Lola Brooks, was here and taught stone setting. There was some really stellar talent around that helped me build this program.
Sharon: That’s quite a lineup you’re mentioning.
Jonathan: And a really diverse lineup.
Sharon: Diverse in what sense?
Jonathan: Klaus’ work is pure art jewelry: the iconic object, incredibly crafted, but what one would consider as art jewelry in its most essential sense. Lola Brooks, her work crosses the lines of both art and jewelry, and she’s got a beautiful studio jewelry line. Then there are people like Pamela Farland, who made very classical, Greco-Roman, high-carat granulated stones, classical goldsmithing. Then there was Tovaback Winnick who teaches carving, which is how the majority of commercial jewelry is made. We had real range as well as your regular Jewelry 1, Jewelry 2, Jewelry 3 classes where we’re teaching the basics of sawing, forming and soldering.
Sharon: You answered my question in part, but if somebody says, “I’m tired of working as a banker; I want to be a jeweler,” can you come to the Y and do that? Can you go through Jewelry 1, Jewelry 2, Jewelry 3 and then graduate into granulation? I don’t know if there’s a direct line.
Jonathan: Absolutely. We don’t have a course of study. We don’t have a certificate, but you can definitely come here and put your own skillset together. That’s also what I found strong about the program, that it gave people access to put their skillsets together without going through art school or going through college. You’re able to learn those hard skills in an environment where it’s no frills.
Sharon: Are they mostly younger people, older people, people of all ages?
Jonathan: It’s people of all ages. When I joked about the country of Brooklyn not being discovered yet, I lived in Williamsburg, Brooklyn for my whole New York life, so I’m speaking the truth. There really wasn’t anything out there. If you were young and hip and cool when I lived in Brooklyn, you had to come here. So, for a long time, we had a much younger population that was cool, hip. Now, everybody has moved to the country called Brooklyn. That demographic has aged a little bit for us.
We have three classes during the day. We have a morning class, an afternoon class, a late afternoon class and then an evening class. If you’re a younger person, it’s most likely that you have a job, so you’re going to come at night for our classes. That’s only one-quarter of the population that can take a class here, because there’s only one slot of night classes. There could be four classes happening at the same time, but all from 7:00-9:30. So, in general our population skews old because those are the people who are generally available during the day.
That being said, it’s New York City. There are lots of different ways to make a living here. There are definitely people who are actors or bartenders or artists or what have you who do have time during the day and come here. It really depends on what class, but absolutely; we have all ages for sure. We also have kids’ classes in the afternoon from 4:00-6:30.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jessica Kagan Cushman
Jessica Kagan Cushman is an independent jewelry and accessories designer who launched her career in 2004 with a line of hand-engraved ivory bracelets. Her line later expanded to necklaces, rings, earrings, and other accessories that were sold at Barneys, Bergdorf Goodman, and other high-end retailers.
Today, Jessica is known as the creator of #neckmess, a jewelry trend combining multiple necklaces, charms, and chains to tell a story. Jessica’s latest endeavor is a line of antique-inspired padlocks and connectors that serve as the building blocks of #neckmess.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Jessica Kagan Cushman is a jewelry and accessories designer who struck gold not once, but twice: first with her hand-engraved ivory bracelets decorated with sassy slogans, and then with #neckmess, a style of jewelry wearing that layers multiple necklaces, charms and chains. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like growing up in her exceptionally creative household; how Instagram and Etsy have helped her business thrive; and how to build the perfect #neckmess. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Jessica Kagan Cushman. She’s a well-known jewelry and accessories designer who today may be most well-known for her development of “neckmess.” If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Welcome back.
Is it all through Instagram? How did you sell before Instagram, or were you doing this stuff?
Jessica: Before Instagram, I had a salesforce and showrooms. I had people selling my stuff all over the place. I had my things placed in showrooms. I had a sales manager and people who worked with him. I never really had to do my own sales, except when I was at Bergdorf’s, all the designers would go and do personal appearances and I was behind the counter. In terms of doing wholesale sales, I had a team who did that. We did a lot of tradeshows. We did 20, 25 tradeshows a year all over the world.
Sharon: Was it Covid? You were online before Covid, right?
Jessica: No, it wasn’t Covid. It was before that. It was long before that when I decided I wasn’t interested in having that type of business, where I was spending most of my time managing employees.
Sharon: Yes, that happens.
Jessica: Exactly. That stopped being fun.
Sharon: Managing people takes time and patience.
Jessica: It does. It’s fine if that’s what you’re doing, but I wanted to be making things and be creative. That’s why I switched. I had a website for my bracelets and bags and things like that, with stuff in a warehouse. I had a fulfillment center that would manage all of that, but again, I was still dealing with stuff I didn’t want to be doing. So, I closed that down and streamlined it. Then I just started selling through Instagram, which became a fantastic tool.
Sharon: What are your secrets for being successful on Instagram?
Jessica: That’s something that evolves all the time. The new algorithms have really put a damper on sales for small businesses. It’s hard. It used to be much, much easier—I would say six to eight months ago—to have people see your posts. Now there’s a different algorithm and they have different criteria for what they use to push your stuff out there. I think they’re really pressing for people to do Instagram Shopping, where people shop through the site. I haven’t investigated it, but I believe there are some fairly onerous rules and they make a percentage. To me, the Instagram/Etsy interface does work. There’s a lot more stuff I should be doing, and I could do relatively easily, but I’ve been sort of lazy about it, like making posts shoppable. You can make the posts shoppable without having to do Instagram Shopping, but it’s work I don’t want to do.
Sharon: Based on the way things are now, you first have to scroll past all these shops to get to individual people. I liked it the way it was before.
Jessica: Yeah, me too. It was better, at least from a small business perspective. I know a lot of jewelry dealers have had similar complaints about it.
Sharon: Why do you think people are attracted to your bracelets and charms and all of that? Why do you think that is?
Jessica: They’re all part of the same thing, and I think it’s self-expression. The bracelets are language and words, so they are your wrists literally speaking for you when you’re wearing one. The charms and neckmesses are basically the same thing. It’s a way to tell your own story and express yourself in an individual way.
Sharon: Tell us about the custom orders people ask you for, if they don’t see what they want.
Jessica: Well, I will say now they do. They’ll see it. I just made an amazing, engraved bracelet for a customer because she saw mine, reached out to me and asked me to make one with a saying of her choice on it. It’s all triggered by something I post. People don’t come to me and say, “Oh, I need an engagement ring,” or “I’m looking for a sapphire bracelet. Can you make it for me?” That’s not the sort of stuff I do.
Sharon: Do you see neckmess growing, or are you onto the next thing?
Jessica: I’ll always be wearing a neckmess. I feel like it’s here to stay, because it doesn’t have to be an enormous wad of things. You can wear two little charms and call it a neckmess. So, it’s not going anywhere.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I was making some notes to myself before we started. I think of the neckmess as something that skews younger.
Jessica: No, I don’t think so, actually.
Sharon: You know better than I do.
Jessica: Based on my clients, it runs the entire spectrum. Even starting with my bracelets, I had customers in every age group. It also depends on what you’re putting on there. If you’re doing a neckmess with seven antique diamond charms, that’s limited to how much you can splurge.
Sharon: I know you mostly through Instagram, but it seems like you’re showing more individual charms as opposed to the neckmesses or a grouping.
Jessica: It depends on what kind of ratty sweater I’m wearing on a particular day and whether I’m feeling too lazy to go change and put together a presentable-looking top to put them on. It also depends on the charm. If there’s something really special, I think it’s nice to show it on its own, but I try and do carousel postings. You can post up to 10 pictures in one post, but I’m never sure how much people actually scroll through, and I’m not sure that’s a metric you can see in Instagram. I don’t know if they tell you that.
Sharon: I’m so used to it now that when there isn’t something to scroll through, I’m going, “Well, I want to see different views.”
Jessica: That’s great, but I don’t know to what extent that’s true for everyone. Some of my customers have messaged me and said, “Can I see this from a different angle?” and it will be something that’s in the post; you just have to scroll through. As I said, it would be an interesting metric to see if people do scroll through. For all I know, you can see it, but I just haven’t looked.
Sharon: I’m curious about the mechanics. If you don’t have your shop, are people direct messaging you and saying, “I want that charm”?
Jessica: They direct message me. It depends on where they are and what payment methods they have, but I invoice them. More and more, I’m trying to get stuff loaded into my Etsy shop because that way it’s there. People don’t have to message me; they can just go and look at it, see how much it is, see the description, and I don’t have to be online for them to get details about it. It’s a process loading stuff into it. It’s very easy. Etsy is very user friendly. You can do everything from your phone. There really is no excuse; it’s just time-consuming.
Sharon: It is time-consuming. Like you say, it’s filling out all the descriptions and putting it online.
Jessica: Lining up the descriptions and measurements, filling out all the different fields, taking all the pictures and a video and getting it loaded. For some reason, you can’t load a video from the Etsy app; you have to do that from a desktop. It’s not perfect, but it’s really easy. I just need to do it.
Sharon: It sounds like it’s working for you, but you’re making me tired listening to you.
Jessica: Yes, I know. It’s exhausting.
Sharon: You talked about managing people. Managing customers and clients can be a pain, too. Did you make a decision to say, “O.K., I’ll do that. I’ll manage the ones and twos as opposed to 10 people”?
Jessica: Yes, it’s much easier to work with my customers than it is to be working in an office with a whole bunch of people who require attention and managing.
Sharon: Do you wake up jumping out of bed full of ideas? How is your creative process?
Jessica: I do get ideas at night. I keep a pad next to my bed, and I’ve gotten very good at drawing on my iPhone. In the Notes app, you can actually draw with your finger, which is a very cool thing. I do that a fair amount, or I’ll try and make lists so I don’t forget it by the time I wake up. Then I go into my studio, and I usually get about a third of the way down the list.
Sharon: It seems like each thing would be generating 20 more things in terms of ideas.
Jessica: Absolutely, that’s true.
Sharon: Do you see being a jewelry professional as what you’ll be doing for the next 20 years?
Jessica: Yeah, I think I’ll always be doing it, but I’ll probably be doing it in different ways. We’re about to go away for essentially all of February and part of March. I’m taking stuff with me so I can be creating while I’m away, but I’m hoping I can do a lot less so it’s not my daily focus while I’m on vacation.
Sharon: Do you preload things online so a few things are coming up while you’re gone?
Jessica: No. I’ll take stuff with me, and I probably will put my Etsy shop into vacation mode, but I’ll keep posting and letting people know I can’t ship for a while if there’s something they’re interested in.
Sharon: I’m sure you have regular clients, but do you have collectors? Would you say you have collectors?
Jessica: Oh yeah, definitely. I have lots of clients who collect all the different padlocks and the new ones when they come out. They’ll string them together as a bracelet or use them in different ways. I definitely have collectors who collect my work.
Sharon: In general, I’m always interested in what people think and what their interpretation of a collector is. What do you consider a jewelry collector? Not just of your jewelry, but what makes a jewelry collector?
Jessica: Passion, I think. They’re passionate about jewelry and they love it. I think anybody can collect it, obviously. I don’t know that you can necessarily define what makes a collector, but for me, it’s the fascination with the design, the uniqueness of the design or the way something is put together, the engineering behind it.
Sharon: Does it have to item-specific?
Jessica: No, it can be anything.
Sharon: Do you think a collector has to say they collect bracelets or lockets? I have a lot of jewelry, and somebody said to me once, “You’re not a collector. You’re a shepherd of the stuff,” and I thought, “Well, I’m all right with that.” Somebody called me a collector once and I was like, “I didn’t know that I’m a collector. I’m an enthusiast.”
Jessica: I think some people say they are guardians of jewelry. You can’t take it with you, so you’re gathering it up and eventually it will get disbursed, unless it all goes to one place as group. But I think anybody can be a collector.
Sharon: What do you think is next for your business? What would you say is your next step? Is it day by day?
Jessica: It’s day by day. For me, my goal is to get things online more, get things into my store so I can be a little more hands-off in terms of Instagram and having to communicate. That’s a time-consuming thing. It’s one of the cool things about Instagram because you can reach out directly to people, and I think people feel very connected to the creators.
Sharon: That’s true.
Jessica: It’s very cool, but by the same token, from my perspective, it takes up a lot of time answering DMs. It is time well spent because I love connecting with my customers and talking to them and finding out what they like, but it’s time taken away from doing creative stuff.
Sharon: The DMs on Etsy, are people asking for a different variation?
Jessica: No, they’ll just ask questions about the piece, like how much it is, how big it is, what it can go with, what kind of stones they are. Any number of questions.
Sharon: I noticed recently you posted some of your things from your personal collection. You said you were trying to reduce it.
Jessica: Right.
Sharon: Is there a touch of angst, like, “Oh, I’m sad”?
Jessica: When I sell things?
Sharon: When you sell your own things, things you’ve collected personally.
Jessica: All of it is personal. I only buy things and collect things that I like and would wear myself. I don’t collect things that fall outside my areas of interest. I will buy certain things specifically to sell, but for the most part I buy something I would want to wear myself. Usually I am fine when I’m selling stuff I have collected. There are maybe five or 10 pieces over the years that I regret having sold, but normally not. I’m fine. I’m happy to see them fly out into the world to make other people happy.
Sharon: Tell us about one of those pieces you regret having sold.
Jessica: The most recent thing I sold that I’m like, “Why did I sell that? That was so stupid,” was a very simple, rose-cut diamond Victorian bracelet, but it was a great stacking piece, and it looks good with other pieces in my collection. I’m seeing other ones, but they’re ridiculously expensive now because it’s a hot item, and I’m wishing I’d held onto it. That’s the sort of thing.
Sharon: It sounds like a beautiful thing. Somebody got very lucky.
Jessica: It went to a very good home. I know it’s well appreciated where it is.
Sharon: That makes it easier then.
Jessica: It does make it better.
Sharon: When you’re traveling or on vacation, is your mind filled with, “I should do something with that”?
Jessica: Yes, usually it’s whatever I happen to be looking at. When I’m on vacation, I’m collecting stuff I can use.
Sharon: Is your family saying, “O.K., mom, enough”?
Jessica: Yeah, always. Now my daughter is grown and married and has her own family, so it’s just my husband and me. I’ve got him relatively well trained. He’s much better about letting me go off and toddle around and look for something. He’s like, “Fine, go ahead. I’ll read a book in the car and wait for you while you go shopping.”
Sharon: He’s probably joining my husband there in the car. How did you come up with idea for the lockets?
Jessica: It was really based on wanting to wear the charms in an organized way. They allow you to wear things so they don’t bunch up. They kind of spread them out, and you can connect pieces of chain. I would buy old watchchains or small pieces of chain and put them together. You would have to do it using modern findings or antique ones, but there was never just the right thing that would put them together and also be a decorative piece and part of the story. I bought a couple of antique padlocks, a Victorian jewelry padlock, and I was able to study that to see how it was put together and made. I also bought, when I was passing the flea market, this very cool double-ended padlock. I was like, “Oh my God, that’s brilliant! That would work. I’m going to miniaturize that.”
Sharon: Double-ended meaning you could open it on either side?
Jessica: On either side. That’s what most of the padlocks I’m making now have, either two or three attachment points so you can attach two pieces of chain and charms and keep everything neat and tidy.
Sharon: It sounds fabulous. I’m thinking your head must be spinning when you wake up because you’re so creative, and you follow those ideas and energy. I really appreciate your taking the time to share them with us. Jessica, thank you so much. It’s been so great to talk with you.
Jessica: It was my pleasure, thank you so much.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jessica Kagan Cushman
Jessica Kagan Cushman is an independent jewelry and accessories designer who launched her career in 2004 with a line of hand-engraved ivory bracelets. Her line later expanded to necklaces, rings, earrings, and other accessories that were sold at Barneys, Bergdorf Goodman, and other high-end retailers.
Today, Jessica is known as the creator of #neckmess, a jewelry trend combining multiple necklaces, charms, and chains to tell a story. Jessica’s latest endeavor is a line of antique-inspired padlocks and connectors that serve as the building blocks of #neckmess.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Jessica Kagan Cushman is a jewelry and accessories designer who struck gold not once, but twice: first with her hand-engraved ivory bracelets decorated with sassy slogans, and then with #neckmess, a style of jewelry wearing that layers multiple necklaces, charms and chains. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like growing up in her exceptionally creative household; how Instagram and Etsy have helped her business thrive; and how to build the perfect #neckmess. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Jessica Kagan Cushman. She’s a well-known jewelry and accessories designer who today may be most well-known for her development of “#neckmess.” We’ll hear all about that and the rest of her jewelry journey today. Jessica, welcome to the program.
Jessica: Thank you so much. It’s delightful to be here.
Sharon: It’s so great to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It sounds like it started early and you stayed on course for the most part.
Jessica: Sort of; it was a little bit circuitous. For most of my adult life, professionally I was a management consultant, but I always had jewelry running parallel. It wasn’t until about 2007 that I was able to stop doing the horrible corporate stuff and start making jewelry and make that into my business.
Sharon: Were you always making jewelry? Were you artistic as a child?
Jessica: Yes, and I always loved it. I loved jewelry from an early age. Both of my grandmothers had fabulous jewelry collections and loved it. My mother never wore jewelry. She wore a wedding ring and occasionally she’d wear earrings if she was going out. It skipped a generation.
Sharon: Do you consider yourself artistic in other ways? Were people are always saying, “Oh, you’re going to be an artist”?
Jessica: Yes, I think so. I think partially that was an assumption people made because of my parents and what they did, but there was always that sense. My whole family is artistic for the most part. Yes, I was always creating things. That was the thing I loved to do.
Sharon: I thought there was a break with jewelry in terms of your professional career, but it sounds like the professional aspect came in the last 10 or 15 years.
Jessica: Yeah, 2007. I can’t do that kind of math in my head, but around 15 years. That’s when I started doing it full time.
Sharon: That’s about as high as I can go when it comes to math without a calculator. I was doing something yesterday and I didn’t have a calculator. It was very simple, but I thought, “Oh my God, what’s going on.” Tell us about your family. You had an interesting childhood.
Jessica: Both of my parents were designers. My father was Vladimir Kagan, who was a mid-century modern furniture designer. My mother was Erica Wilson, who we used to call the “Crewel Queen of Needlework.” They both had very successful businesses, and we grew up in that environment.
Sharon: Did they ever try and influence you or say, “Forget the management consulting”?
Jessica: Not really, no. I think they were hoping I would continue. I think they would have liked us all to have gone off and become corporate workers. There’s a little bit of, “Oh, God, don’t do this. Don’t be a designer. Do something real.”
Sharon: Oh really? That’s interesting. I’m surprised to hear that because they were so prominent and well-known.
Jessica: Yes, because they had no idea what the corporate world was like, they probably had this romanticized vision that it might not be quite as hard if you’re working for somebody else. If you have your own business, you’ve got to keep producing new stuff all the time. But they were always super supportive, and when my business started taking off, they were completely delighted and very supportive.
Sharon: I know you designed bags. Did it take off with the bags or the bracelets?
Jessica: It was the bracelets. I started with bracelets. I had a son whom we sadly lost when he was 21 in 2003. He was home; he had had an accident. He and I came up with the bracelet concept together. He was studying filmmaking at New York Film Academy but living at home, and we would stay up late at night and watch old movies and collect quotes that we loved. There were lots of what I call “yoga jewelry,” stuff that says “breathe” and “dream,” but I always felt that sassier women were under-served by the jewelry market. My father had taught me scrimshaw in Nantucket years ago when I was a kid, and I had a collection of old ivory bracelets my aunt had given me years ago. I just started engraving on them and wore them, and people loved them and wanted them. I started making them and I made more and more, and then Barneys got them and the rest is history. It grew from there.
Sharon: You developed that into a production line, right?
Jessica: I did. I was hand-engraving all of them myself using fossilized wooly mammoth ivory, which is amazing. It’s 10,000 years old, and obviously no elephants are harmed in the gathering of that ivory. You can’t use it anymore. That was when I was at Barneys. I decided I should rip myself off before someone else did, so I started making them in resin. I first started making them domestically, but the manufacturers here couldn’t keep up, so I had to go overseas. Then we started making them by the thousands.
Sharon: Wow! Wooly mammoth, you can’t use it anymore because?
Jessica: There has been an appropriate reaction to ivory. I think the reason it’s banned now is because when you have newly processed wooly mammoth, unless you know what you’re looking at—I happen to know ivory in all the different forms because I work with it so much—it’s probably pretty easy to pass off elephant ivory as woolly mammoth ivory, even though they are very distinct differences between them. It’s gone on a state-by-state basis, I think. At least a few years ago, it was state-by-state. You can sell it and have it in some states, but not in others. I just stay away from all of it now.
Sharon: When you were doing stuff for Barneys, did you find that your creativity for expanding was being usurped by all the stuff you had to think of to develop a production line?
Jessica: No, not really, because I was just doing one thing. I was engraving these bracelets myself. Then when I went to Bergdorf’s, I was able to expand into much more than engraved bracelets. It started with that at Bergdorf’s, but then expanded into a much larger line.
Sharon: To your bags or other jewelry or both?
Jessica: That expanded to other jewelry. The tote bags and other accessories, that business all grew concurrently with the Bergdorf’s business. I really had two separate lines. I had a fine jewelry line at Bergdorf Goodman and a few other locations, and then I had costume jewelry and resin bracelets and bags and all sorts of other accessories that ran side by side. Eventually I had a licensing deal with a company based in California, and we did barware and all kinds of things.
Sharon: Wow! I’m so curious about your upbringing. It sounds peripatetic. It’s so unusual an upbringing. Tell us about that.
Jessica: Well, it was amazing. It was a very creative household. We were never allowed as children to say, “I’m bored.” That was the one thing we couldn’t say. Our parents would say, “Well, go make something,” so that’s what we did. My brother is a professional artist, now a painter, and has been doing that in Nantucket for years. My sister took over my mother’s business. She always claims to not be very creative, but I think everybody is creative if we know how to dig into it. Then my aunt and cousins were all artists and painters.
Sharon: Did you travel a lot during your childhood?
Jessica: Yes. Both sets of grandparents lived overseas. My mother’s parents were English, and my father’s parents were German and Russian. They ended up in the U.K. for a while and then in Switzerland.
Sharon: Where did your parents meet?
Jessica: They met in New York. My mother had been sent over to the Embroiderers’ Guild in Millbrook, New York, to teach the ladies needlework. She went to the Royal School of Needlework in London, and the Embroiderers’ Guild reached out to the Royal School and said, “We need an instructor,” and they sent my mother. She was living in Millbrook, and she ended up at a costume ball in New York that was run by the Architect’s League or something like that. That was where they met. My mother was dressed as a French poodle and my father was dressed as the devil, appropriately.
Sharon: I’m sorry, he was dressed as what?
Jessica: As the devil. It was very appropriate.
Sharon: That’s an interesting way to begin.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly.
Sharon: As you said, you think everybody is creative if they dig deep enough. Do you think that’s true about jewelry designers or fabricators? Is everybody creative?
Jessica: I do think everybody’s creative. They’re not necessarily going to be creative at making jewelry. You have to love it. My daughter, for instance, hates jewelry. While she is creative at certain things, jewelry would not ever be it for her. I’m going to have to leave my collection to a museum. She’s got no interest.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I have to think about that; whether it’s jewelry or not, is everybody creative if you dig deep enough?
Jessica: I think so. I think it’s a primal instinct. If you think about it, creativity is problem solving in a way. You just have to know how to access it.
Sharon: Do you have any particular tricks for accessing it?
Jessica: I don’t. It does come very naturally to me. My problem is I have way too many ideas and not nearly enough time and hands to get everything done that I’d like to do.
Sharon: Tell us about what you’re doing today. Tell us about your business and how you segued into it. You were on Instagram.
Jessica: Really that’s it, Instagram. When I was doing all these things, licensing and the accessories and the bags and so on and so forth, I had about 10 people working for me in a studio in my house in Connecticut. We have since moved, but I had a separate building. I had all these people there, and it stopped being fun. There was such a demand. Every season, I kept having to come up with new stuff, new stuff, new stuff. That was taxing, and it stopped being fun.
I was able to step away from that. It’s always constantly evolving, but my goal going forward is to just make stuff that I like and put it out there, and if somebody wants it, great, if not, whatever. Over last few years, especially during the lockdown and Covid, I would put stuff out there and people would want it. It was a bit of a struggle to keep up with making things. I found I was being very reactive instead of being able to focus on doing what I wanted.
Sharon: Reactive because were they placing orders?
Jessica: Yes, exactly. Basically, I have the attention span of a flea. If I sit down to make a pair of earrings, I get one earring done and I’m like, “O.K., I did that. Now, I’m moving on.” While obviously I love everything I do, I tend to want to move on to the next thing after a day and a half.
Sharon: Tell us about the business. Do you make everything now or buy things?
Jessica: Yes, the answer is yes. I love antique jewelry. I really have a passion for it. Each piece is a little piece of art, a little sculpture you can wear and have with you. Probably about five or six years ago, I started making padlocks and connectors that enabled my antique jewelry passion to meld with the modern stuff I was making as well.
Sharon: How did it connect to antique jewelry?
Jessica: The connectors, they’re essentially miniature padlocks. I’m constantly evolving the design, but the most popular ones have multiple points of attachment, so you can attach a few chains. You can attach a bunch of charms. They’re basically the building blocks of #neckmess. Obviously, #neckmess has become much bigger than just my padlocks, and you can build a #neckmess with anything, but to really make it look great, I think, it’s good to have connectors and little pieces of chain so you can actually build a story without everything getting clumped up and mushed together.
Sharon: When you’re putting things together, are you thinking about #neckmess and how it’s going to work together?
Jessica: Yes, definitely. To have a #neckmess come out right, you have to put some thought into it and build it, I think. That’s just my opinion. People wear all sorts of things, but I like mine to be a certain way. Even though it looks like it’s just a pile of stuff that’s all been thrown together, I usually have some sort of thematic or color thing that runs through it to make it a cohesive story.
Sharon: What do people tell you about #neckmess? When they see somebody wearing your stuff or you’re wearing it, what do they say? What are their comments?
Jessica: People always want to touch it, which is good or bad when they’re grabbing for your chest. They want to see it and hear about it and look at it and see what story it tells. In my case, I like stuff to be interesting and different and unusual, not just charms. It’s got to have some interesting tale to tell.
Sharon: So, your #neckmess pieces or groups are thematic. You want them to tell a story.
Jessica: Yeah, I like them to tell a story. When you put a bunch of charms together on a bracelet or a necklace, those things are telling a story already regardless of whether it’s an official #neckmess or not. They’re very personal. I like to group them for a reason. I like them to have a reason to be hanging out together.
Sharon: I’m interested in the way you collect. It seems like little bits and pieces you have in your jewelry box or in your studio. That’s the sense I got, that you hold onto things until you need them.
Jessica: That is true. I’m always looking for good design and interesting, different stuff. It doesn’t necessarily have to be something that was intended for jewelry. If something catches my eye, I buy it. For my creative process, I’ll sit down and start fiddling around and I’ll go, “Oh, I remember. I’ve got that porcelain mask I can add to this piece.” I love having stuff on hand so I can grab it whenever I want.
Sharon: Today, are you making everything yourself for your designs?
Jessica: I make some stuff myself, but I don’t do my own casting, for instance. I do some stone setting, but very limited. My bench skills are not great. I wish they were better. That’s another goal I have this year, to improve my bench skills. In the interim, I work with people all over the country who do different aspects of production for me.
Sharon: So, you might tell them, “I want a fish with three eyes,” or whatever?
Jessica: For the pieces I create from scratch, I will draw them up and either carve the waxes myself or I’ll work with a CAD designer and have them created, CAD being computer assisted design. We’ll work on a design, and then I have those pieces cast through the lost wax casting process, and then I embellish them from there.
Sharon: Looking at your Instagram, what percentage of your work is one-of-a-kind stuff you pulled from your own supply and what is cast?
Jessica: All the antique pieces are one of a kind, for the most part. You can find duplication in antiques, but for the most part, all antique things are one of a kind. For the padlock line, I have basic padlock shapes and designs—they have various configurations—and then I embellish those with stones, or on some of them I’ll take antique charms and have them attached permanently to the pieces. So, even those are somewhat one of a kind as well. It’s hard to identify percentage because it varies. Things are very cyclical. I’ll create something and sell tons of them and then the demand drops. I’m not very good at all the stuff you’re supposed to do within an antique store or an online shop. Then I’ll move onto the next thing. As I said, it’s cyclical. Sometimes what I’m selling is 100% stuff I’m making and sometimes it’s 25% and the other 75% is antique, one-of-a-kind stuff.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Susan Cummins
Born in 1946 in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but raised primarily in Atherton, California, Susan Cummins specializes in contemporary art jewelry and spent many years as a gallerist in Mill Valley, California. In 1983, Cummins took over Horizon Gallery in Mill Valley, re-naming it the Susan Cummins Gallery. Noting a lack of representation, Cummins settled on American jewelry as a primary focus for her gallery. Eventually, Cummins relocated to a larger space in Mill Valley and became known for representing painters and jewelers in the same gallery space, blurring the rigid distinction between fine art and craft. Cummins maintained the gallery until 2002. In 1997, Cummins helped found Art Jewelry Forum, a nonprofit tasked with connecting people working across the field of contemporary jewelry and educating new audiences. She continues to be a frequent contributor and is currently serving as the board chair. Cummins has also served on boards for arts organizations such as the American Craft Council and the Headlands Center for the Arts. Her primary focus in recent years has been her work as director of the Rotasa Foundation, a family foundation that supports exhibitions and publications featuring contemporary art jewelers. Susan Cummins was elected a 2018 Honorary Fellow of the American Craft Council.
About Laurie Hall
Laurie Hall, along with Ron Ho, Kiff Slemmons, Ramona Solberg, and Nancy Worden, is part of what has been called the Northwest School of Jewelers, an influential jewelry art movement centered around an eclectic style of narrative and composition.
Laurie Hall is a long-time artist and educator from the Pacific Northwest, whose work has exhibited internationally. In 2016, her work was featured in Craft in America’s exhibition Politically Speaking: New American Ideals in Contemporary Jewelry. Laurie’s work is part of numerous private and public collections including The Museum of Art and Design in NYC, The Tacoma Art Museum, The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com:
Coney Island Express
1983
Carved polychromed wood, bronze, sterling silver, string, and found cocktail umbrella
1 1/2 x 1 1/4 x 16 inches
Private collection
Photo: Roger Schreiber
Stumped
1988
Yew wood, sterling silver (oxidized), and antique compass
13 x 1/4 x 3/8 inches
The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, Helen Williams Drutt Collection, museum purchase funded by the Morgan Foundation in honor of Catherine Asher Morgan, 2002.3793
Cubist Café
1987
Sterling silver (oxidized)
6 1/2 x 12 3/4 x 1/2 inches
Tacoma Art Museum, gift of Mia McEldowney
Photo: Doug Yaple
Wrapped Up in the Times
1987
Sterling silver (oxidized), aluminum sheet, and decoy fish eye
6 x 4 1/2 x 1 1/2 inches
Sandy and Lou Grotta collection
Photo: Richard Nichol
The Royal Brou Ha Ha
1996
Sterling silver (stamped), stainless-steel fine mesh, hematite beads, and sterling silver foxtail chain
10 x 10 x 1 1/2 inches
Tacoma Art Museum, gift of Sharon Campbell
Photo: Richard Nichol
One Screw
2009
Bronze screw and sterling silver
1 x 1 x 1/4 inches
Curtis Steiner collection
Photo: Curtis Steiner
No. 2, Please!
1988
Bronze, found No.2 pencils, basswood, and color core
16 x 3/4 x 4 3/4 inches
The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, Helen Williams Drutt Collection, museum purchase funded by the Morgan Foundation in honor of Catherine Asher Morgan, 2002.3791
Behind the Eight-Ball
2008
Fabricated marriage of metal ball (copper, sterling silver, nickel silver, bronze), copper frame, found printing plate and stencil, and sterling silver
2 3/4 x 3 x 1/2 inches
Marcia Doctor collection
Photo: Roger Schreiber
Transcript:
Although her work has been shown internationally, Laurie Hall’s jewelry is undoubtedly rooted in the Pacific Northwest. As a member of the influential Northwest School of Jewelers, Laurie’s eclectic, often humorous work has drawn the attention of numerous gallerists and collectors, including Art Jewelry Forum co-founder Susan Cummins. Susan recently captured Laurie’s career in the new book, “North by Northwest: The Jewelry of Laurie Hall.” Laurie and Susan joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the influences behind the Northwest School; where Laurie draws her inspiration from; and what they learned from each other while writing the book. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode.
Today, my guests are Susan Cummins and Laurie Hall. Susan has co-authored with Damian Skinner a new book, “North by Northwest: The Jewelry of Laurie Hall.” For 20+ years, she was the driving force behind Art Jewelry Forum, which advocates for contemporary art jewelry. Laurie is an arts educator and jeweler from the Pacific Northwest whose jewelry has been exhibited internationally. She’s a key figure in the Northwest School of Jewelry, an influential jewelry art movement centered around an eclectic style of narrative and composition. If you haven’t heard Part 1, please go TheJewelryJourney.com.
Welcome back. Susan, did you see Laurie’s work somewhere and said, “I want to show that,” or did Laurie send you a photo and say, “Do you want to carry my stuff?” How did that work?
Susan: I don’t think Laurie sent me anything. I think I saw her work in a gallery in San Francisco that had it before I did, the Lane Potter Gallery.
Laurie: Right.
Susan: It could have been that I saw it in the catalogue for Jewelry U.S.A. or another invitational of some sort, or I could have seen it through Kiff Slemmons, who I was also showing at the time. Somehow or another, I saw images of it. I had a show—I can’t remember if it was a group show. Maybe it was Northwest jewelers; I don’t remember the reason for the group show, but it seemed to me that Laurie’s work would fit into that. That’s when she did the café piece, because Laurie always was very conscious of where her pieces were going.
If she was doing a show that was going to be in the San Francisco Bay Area, she wanted to do something that reminded her of that area that she thought people there would relate to. She thought San Francisco was kind of like Paris, in that there are cafés and Bohemians, life and art and all that. So, she made this café piece that looks like it could have been something that Brock or Picasso did early in their careers. There’s a guitar in there. There are tables with plates and chairs and things askew, as if in a cubist painting, and the word “café” in big letters across the top. It was something she thought the San Francisco community would like.
When she did something for the East Coast, she often thought about folk art and Americana, so she used whirligig figures, literally off of whirligigs, or folk art-influenced imagery, like people riding a bicycle, or a tall bicycle with a top hat on and a little message, or the words “Coney Island” on it so they would be thinking of Coney Island. It was very folk art, Americana-like, which she thought the East Coast would be more interested in. Laurie was definitely making work for these markets she showed in, very conscious of that and very accommodating to it. Anyway, did I answer your question? I think I got carried away there.
Sharon: Yes. Laurie, how did the fact that you were a teacher influence the work you did? I don’t know if you’re still teaching.
Laurie: I taught for over 38 years. The cubist café was because we were studying cubism. I taught calligraphy, lettering and graphics. I love lettering and graphics, and the kids influenced me a lot because they would comment on what I was making or doing. I didn’t work at school, but I’d sometimes bring a piece in and show it to them. Did I answer it?
Sharon: Yes.
Susan: Why don’t you talk about that piece you did that was a challenge for the students in your class to make something like it?
Laurie: Yeah, you mean the football thing. At Mercer Island High School, they always win all the sport competitions, football, basketball, baseball, soccer, everything. Sometimes they’d shut school down when they were in the finals. I had a whole bunch of football players in my class, and they all called me Hall. They all thought I was cool.
Sharon: I’m sorry. You were cool? Is that what you said?
Laurie: They thought I was cool.
Sharon: For a minute I thought you said cruel, and I was going, “O.K.”
Laurie: No, they called me Agent Orange and Galleon. It was quite funny. They all wanted an A, and they kept coming up and saying, “What does it take to get an A? This is an art class. It must be easy to get an A.” I said, “All right. We’re making jewelry. You guys have to make a necklace and wear it into the lunchroom if you expect to get an A. You have to wear it. I really want you to wear it all day, but I won’t be able to see you all day.” Anyhow, they did it, and everybody enjoyed it.
Sharon: And did they get A’s?
Laurie: If they deserved one. Just by them doing it, I thought they deserved an A because of that, yeah.
Sharon: It’s a high hurdle, walking to the lunchroom with something like that.
Laurie: Yes, guys with big necks and everything. It was humorous.
Susan: You also did a piece yourself that had to do with the idea of football, which was a sandwich board piece you wear over your shoulders, front and back. It was called “Rah, Rah, Sis, Boom, Bah.” There were footballs flying over the goalposts and flags and people waving and numbers and all kinds of things.
Laurie: I had a little candy. They used to give candy out. If you had a date to the football game, they’d give you a favor, a little tin football with some candy in it. So, I used that football on the necklace. That was my found object that I had, but how did I come about having that? I think it was in my brother’s drawer upstairs in my parents’ house.
Susan: No, somebody invited you to a football game and gave you a piece of candy.
Laurie: I doubt it. I probably stole the candy in it.
Sharon: Laurie, was there a point in your jewelry making that you were selling but making so much that you said, “I can’t teach right now”? Was there so much demand, or no?
Laurie: No, I had a really good job. I needed the money. I had no other means of support because I’m a single lady, and I loved it. It was consistent. It was reliable. I had no desire to make production jewelry. I worked for Robert Lee Morris one summer for six weeks. It was interesting, and I really liked Robert. I went to his workshop up in Lake Placid, New York. He made that Coty collection of bracelets that are all aerodynamic, and he was talking about that. I used hollow construction a lot because I’m not a flat jeweler. I really make dimensional things.
Sharon: Yes, you can see that now.
Laurie: To me they’re sculpture; they really are. They’re sculptural, and I like the way they interact with the body. It’s a sculpture on the body, as I said, but I’m not really intellectual about what I’m doing. I’m just recording things that I think other people could find interest in and making them. Do I know they’re going to find interest in them? I’ve always been lucky my work has gone out. Am I big seller? I usually sell what I make, but I can’t make that much. I’ve always been interrupted by school. I had a lot of kids every day. I was in a public school, and then I had to clean the room and get the supplies. I had a whole lot of energy. I’m kind of amazed at what I did at this point.
Sharon: Have you ever put on a piece that you had been playing with and said, “This is too flat,” or “It’s not talking,” or “This isn’t what I had in mind”?
Laurie: You mean do I mess up and trash something? Yeah, of course. There’s one piece in the book that’s made out of an aluminum ruler. I made that piece three times and even had it photographed. I don’t have a lot of money, but I don’t think about that. I just go and do something because I know I’ll have to figure it out later. When I finally got that piece done, it went to a gallery and it sold immediately, but I made it three times. I have evidence of the way it looked along the way.
Sharon: What was it the other times? You didn’t think it was dimensional enough?
Laurie: It just didn’t do it. That’s all I can say. To be honest about it, it wasn’t compelling. There are compelling ideas. Some people can sit down and design something and make it—I’d say there’s the ordinary way things look where they’re acceptable, like a lady the other day showed me a picture of something on a TV set and said, “Is this your piece?” I looked at it and said, “No. It’s nice, but I don’t make that kind of thing.” I don’t try to make nice. I don’t try to make acceptable. I just try to make something that’s got a little bit of magic to the message. You don’t get it right away maybe, but you keep wanting to go back and look at it. That’s what I hope for, and that’s what it does to me when I make it. I either know it works or I know it doesn’t work.
Sharon: Do you have a story in mind that you want to say, or message in mind that you want to get across in a piece before you start it?
Laurie: Sometimes, like when I found the screw, I knew what I was going to do with it. I saw what was behind the Eight Ball. I saw that ball thing, and I had some Corbusier letters. They were stencils, and I had the monkey. I knew I wanted to make a marriage of a metal ball, and I wanted to see how round I could get it. That was the high bar, so it was technical in one aspect. I try to go over the high bar sometimes.
What other piece can I talk about? The “Wrapped Up in the Times” piece doesn’t have any found objects in it other than a glass eye, but I had aluminum, and I made the newspaper out of aluminum because I could cut letters. If you know how you can do it with the materials you have available—and I work with anything. If I think it will work in the piece, I work with it.
Susan: We should say that “Wrapped Up in the Times” is a fish wrapped up in The New York Times. It’s a pun. I was going to say a couple of things about Laurie’s work. One is that she really does describe the Northwest. If you’ve ever lived in the Northwest, which I have, either in Portland or Seattle, there are so many references to her place of origin that you just can’t miss them. For example, there are a lot of boats in her work. There’s water or fishing references. There’s a bridge. One necklace is of the bridge. Portland, if you’ve ever been there, there’s a river that goes through the city, and over the river are many, many bridges. There’s also a lot of wood and log sections, like rounds of cut wood which came from some branches of a hawthorn tree—I forget what it was.
Laurie: Yew wood.
Susan: Yew wood, yeah. Those sections were all arranged around a necklace with a little compass down in the bottom, which refers to a story about Laurie getting lost in the woods. She called it “Stumped,” again referring to getting lost in the woods, but also referring to the fact that Portland was a big source for lumber companies back in the 19th century for wood. For a long time, they cut the trees and left them stumps, so there are vast areas where there were stumps. Even today, Portland is known by the nickname of Stumptown, and you can find Stumptown coffee around town. It’s a brand of coffee. There are parts of the city that are called Stumptown. So, it’s a joke, and yet she made this necklace that has this title.
A lot of Laurie’s pieces are like that. They are puns or plays on words, or just something funny. There’s another piece called “The Royal Brewhaha,” which is about brewing tea. It’s got tea bags all around it, all of which Laurie made, but it’s about the English, so the royal part comes in making a deal about something. It’s just funny and fun. She’s often very clever about how she names them. It’s also things that are coming from this area, except maybe “The Royal Brewhaha,” but many things—
Laurie: Except it was Princess Di and the royal family. I am Scottish, English, Irish, all the British Isles, so I couldn’t help but identify with her because she was so tortured by the royal family. I hated that, so I had to make a piece about it.
Susan: Everything that she’s doing is coming from her place, her environment. Everything around her and in her life is incorporated one way or another into the pieces.
Sharon: Susan, in writing the book and interviewing Laurie and going through the archives, what surprised you most about Laurie’s work?
Susan: I knew Laurie to some degree before, but not all that well. It is fantastic when you write a book about somebody and you get to ask them every single question you can think of about themselves, about their lives, about their backgrounds, about the piece they made. We literally went through all the work Laurie had ever done that we had pictures of, and I said, “O.K., Laurie, what’s this piece about? What’s it made of? When did you make it? What were you referring to?” So, we have something written up in our archive about every single piece.
I don’t know if there’s any one thing that surprised me about Laurie, but everything about Laurie was interesting and funny and fun and amazing in how original her work is, and how she embodies a certain area of this country, and how she was a very American jeweler who was interested in stories and her place of origin. I think none of that was a big surprise, but it all was really interesting to me.
Laurie: Ramona had used things from other places in the world, and I could relate to what she had done, but I didn’t want to do it again. I knew I wanted to celebrate American things, and that was it. Then I went about trying to describe it, not thinking it out until I had to make things. I’m very driven by a deadline and a vacation and having time to work, because I worked all the time.
Sharon: Were you picking things not just from America, but from the Pacific Northwest?
Laurie: I was living there and I loved where I was from, so I couldn’t help but record what was going on in my life.
Sharon: I’m curious, because in the past 30 years, let’s say, everyone has even less of an understanding of your work. I could see how it would be like, “Oh look, you have this ethnic jewelry over here, and you have your cool jewelry over here,” which is really unusual. Have you seen more “I don’t get it” in the past 30 years?
Laurie: If someone saw the café necklace on, they’d want it, or they’d say, “Well, maybe I can’t wear that, but I really like that.” I don’t want to worry about that. I didn’t worry about it, and I’m still not worried about it. That’s what’s wrong. I think Dorothea Prühl was not thinking too much about acceptability. I love her pieces. Being free and expressing your own self or your original thoughts is better than anything else. It really is.
Susan: I think Laurie’s work speaks to American interests. I don’t think those interests have changed a huge amount from when she made these pieces, but she’s been making pieces all along. She’s still making pieces. She’s still reflecting her times and her place. I think we’re talking more about the beginnings of her career or some of the earlier pieces, but the later pieces are also very similar in their humor and their personal reflections of where she is. That doesn’t change much over time. Your environment is your environment. The Northwest is the Northwest. There still are influences from nature, from First Nations people. There’s a lot of imagery you can see all around Portland and Seattle from the Native Americans who were there originally, which influenced Laurie’s work as well.
Laurie: I love that stuff. It’s the same feeling. It was looking at the materials. Making with materials is so exciting with the colors, the textures, all of those things. It’s just so exciting putting them together.
Susan: And that’s pretty much constant with what Laurie’s made all along.
Sharon: Laurie, was there something surprising or interesting that was thought-provoking as Susan was interviewing you and you were thinking more about the work? Were there surprises or reflections you had that hadn’t occurred to you?
Laurie: I think Susan explained how I think. That was a surprise to me, because I didn’t think anybody could figure out how I think. That was the biggest gift she gave me. I was so pleased with the writing and also with Damian, with some of the things he’d say to me. It was fun. We interviewed a lot, and it was always exhilarating.
I never did this because I was trying to make a living or be famous or anything, but I did it because I liked expression. Even from when I was a kid, I won a poster contest. I was in the fifth grade. Everybody at the school entered and I won; the fifth grader got first prize. I never felt that my primitive style would be rejected. I also felt that I could go ahead and be the way I am inside, put it down in paint, put in down in printmaking, put it down however—not that I didn’t have to work hard to get one composition to work, but another one would fall into place. There are quick pieces. Then there are long, hard pieces that you work on. They’re all different.
Susan: We should also say, Laurie, you were teaching art in general in your high school classes.
Laurie: I wasn’t just a jewelry teacher. I was teaching painting, printmaking, graphics, textiles, everything. I had to go out at the end of the day and go from one end of Seattle to the other getting supplies. Then I’d go down to Pacific Island Metal where they have all this junk, and I’d think, “Oh, look at that! Look at that, this metal!” I love metal, I really do. I can make sculpture for the body, but when you think about making your sculpture that is freestanding, I haven’t done much with that yet. I still want to make some tabletop ones, little ones, but it’s putting things together that’s so exciting.
Sharon: So, there’s more to be explored. I have to say the book is very clear in terms of explaining your thought process behind each of the photos, which are beautiful, as well as your thought process in general. It’s published by Arnoldsche. How do you say that?
Susan: Arnoldsche. They’ve published a lot of books on contemporary jewelry, especially European ones, but they’ve also published more American writers about American jewelers now. Toni Greenbaum just published one on Sam Kramer. The influx book that Damian and Cindi Strauss and I worked on was also published by Arnoldsche. They are really the best distributors of contemporary jewelry publications.
Susan: Yes, and I was excited they were going to publish my book.
Sharon: It sounds like such an honor. It’s a beautiful book. It’s available on the Art Jewelry Forum site, ArtJewelryForum.org, if you want to see a beautiful book. It’s also a very readable book with the pictures. Thank you both very, very much. It’s greatly appreciated. I hope to talk to you about the next book.
Susan: Thank you, Sharon. Thanks so much for having us.
Laurie: Thanks, Sharon.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Susan Cummins
Born in 1946 in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but raised primarily in Atherton, California, Susan Cummins specializes in contemporary art jewelry and spent many years as a gallerist in Mill Valley, California. In 1983, Cummins took over Horizon Gallery in Mill Valley, re-naming it the Susan Cummins Gallery. Noting a lack of representation, Cummins settled on American jewelry as a primary focus for her gallery. Eventually, Cummins relocated to a larger space in Mill Valley and became known for representing painters and jewelers in the same gallery space, blurring the rigid distinction between fine art and craft. Cummins maintained the gallery until 2002. In 1997, Cummins helped found Art Jewelry Forum, a nonprofit tasked with connecting people working across the field of contemporary jewelry and educating new audiences. She continues to be a frequent contributor and is currently serving as the board chair. Cummins has also served on boards for arts organizations such as the American Craft Council and the Headlands Center for the Arts. Her primary focus in recent years has been her work as director of the Rotasa Foundation, a family foundation that supports exhibitions and publications featuring contemporary art jewelers. Susan Cummins was elected a 2018 Honorary Fellow of the American Craft Council.
About Laurie Hall
Laurie Hall, along with Ron Ho, Kiff Slemmons, Ramona Solberg, and Nancy Worden, is part of what has been called the Northwest School of Jewelers, an influential jewelry art movement centered around an eclectic style of narrative and composition.
Laurie Hall is a long-time artist and educator from the Pacific Northwest, whose work has exhibited internationally. In 2016, her work was featured in Craft in America’s exhibition Politically Speaking: New American Ideals in Contemporary Jewelry. Laurie’s work is part of numerous private and public collections including The Museum of Art and Design in NYC, The Tacoma Art Museum, The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJewelryJourney.com:
Coney Island Express
1983
Carved polychromed wood, bronze, sterling silver, string, and found cocktail umbrella
1 1/2 x 1 1/4 x 16 inches
Private collection
Photo: Roger Schreiber
Stumped
1988
Yew wood, sterling silver (oxidized), and antique compass
13 x 1/4 x 3/8 inches
The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, Helen Williams Drutt Collection, museum purchase funded by the Morgan Foundation in honor of Catherine Asher Morgan, 2002.3793
Cubist Café
1987
Sterling silver (oxidized)
6 1/2 x 12 3/4 x 1/2 inches
Tacoma Art Museum, gift of Mia McEldowney
Photo: Doug Yaple
Wrapped Up in the Times
1987
Sterling silver (oxidized), aluminum sheet, and decoy fish eye
6 x 4 1/2 x 1 1/2 inches
Sandy and Lou Grotta collection
Photo: Richard Nichol
The Royal Brou Ha Ha
1996
Sterling silver (stamped), stainless-steel fine mesh, hematite beads, and sterling silver foxtail chain
10 x 10 x 1 1/2 inches
Tacoma Art Museum, gift of Sharon Campbell
Photo: Richard Nichol
One Screw
2009
Bronze screw and sterling silver
1 x 1 x 1/4 inches
Curtis Steiner collection
Photo: Curtis Steiner
No. 2, Please!
1988
Bronze, found No.2 pencils, basswood, and color core
16 x 3/4 x 4 3/4 inches
The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, Helen Williams Drutt Collection, museum purchase funded by the Morgan Foundation in honor of Catherine Asher Morgan, 2002.3791
Behind the Eight-Ball
2008
Fabricated marriage of metal ball (copper, sterling silver, nickel silver, bronze), copper frame, found printing plate and stencil, and sterling silver
2 3/4 x 3 x 1/2 inches
Marcia Doctor collection
Photo: Roger Schreiber
Transcript:
Although her work has been shown internationally, Laurie Hall’s jewelry is undoubtedly rooted in the Pacific Northwest. As a member of the influential Northwest School of Jewelers, Laurie’s eclectic, often humorous work has drawn the attention of numerous gallerists and collectors, including Art Jewelry Forum co-founder Susan Cummins. Susan recently captured Laurie’s career in the new book, “North by Northwest: The Jewelry of Laurie Hall.” Laurie and Susan joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the influences behind the Northwest School; where Laurie draws her inspiration from; and what they learned from each other while writing the book. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today my guests are Susan Cummins and Laurie Hall. Susan has co-authored with Damian Skinner a new book, “North by Northwest: The Jewelry of Laurie Hall” For 20+ years, she was the driving force behind Art Jewelry Forum, which advocates for contemporary art jewelry. Laurie is an arts educator and jeweler from the Pacific Northwest whose jewelry has been exhibited internationally. She’s a key figure in the Northwest School of Jewelry, an influential jewelry art movement centered around an eclectic style of narrative and composition. We’ll hear more about Susan’s and Laurie’s jewelry journey today. Susan and Laurie, welcome to the program.
Susan: Thank you, wonderful to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have each of you. Susan we’ll start with you. Can you tell us about your jewelry journey?
Susan: My jewelry journey did not start until I was running a gallery in Mill Valley. I showed a lot of crafts in the gallery, and that introduced me to some American jewelers who were part of that craft movement in the 80s and 90s. I started to show those American jewelers in the gallery and after a while, I began to realize how smart and how very skilled they were, and how wonderful it was to work with them. There were no other galleries that just showed American jewelers in the United States at that time. All the other galleries that existed showed a lot of European work. So, I thought, “O.K., this is going to be my specialty.” That’s mainly what I did and what I showed, and I became very infatuated with jewelry at that moment in time.
Sharon: Is that when you started Art Jewelry Forum?
Susan: I started Art Jewelry Forum in 1997, and the gallery I had in the 80s and 90s. So, it was a while before that came to be, but yes, within that period of time.
Sharon: Laurie, what’s your jewelry journey?
Laurie: As a kid, I started doing art right away. My parents observed me drawing horses on the wall and my mother said, “Bill, I think we have an artist here.” I was given their stamp of approval from the very beginning. Did I think about being a jeweler? No, it’s always been about art and making things like accessories, costumes, that kind of thing. I just wanted to be an artist, whether it was a visual artist or making things. I liked making compositions that were about something.
Sharon: Did you first meet Susan when she had the gallery? How did you two first meet?
Laurie: I met Susan at the gallery in Mill Valley. She requested to show my work, so of course you respond; you don’t hesitate on that. I knew Susan’s reputation already and I was thrilled. As usual, it was a bit of a hot potato because I taught full time and it was hard to get the pieces done. I think I squeaked in at the last minute, but I did get there.
Susan: Laurie is famous for being late, especially delivering work to every show she was ever in, but I have to say doing this book, she was right on time with everything. It was a miracle. She really, really performed in this case.
Sharon: There are some beautiful photos, so I can imagine pulling them all together must have been such a task.
Laurie: It was, but it was fun.
Susan: She kept very good records and we had access to all of those. For years she’d been taking photographs. Unless an artist does that throughout their career, it going to be hard to even put together a monograph of their work.
Sharon: I bet it would be, if you had to go back and start pulling things from 30 years ago. Laurie, in the book, “North by Northwest,” it talks about the influence that Ramona Solberg had on you. Can you tell us who she was, what happened and how she influenced you?
Laurie: I came to Seattle to teach. I taught a couple of years on Vashon, and then I was recruited to go to Mercer Island, which was—I didn’t know at the time—the best school district in Seattle in terms of kids and the economics of it and everything. It was a public high school. I went to a conference down in Tacoma, and Ramona was there. It was an art education conference. I walked in, and she had this whole table of ethnic jewelry, which was the rage, and I liked it. Everybody liked it. It really put things on display, and she had her own work right next to it.
I think her aesthetic was something I always had to begin with, in some ways. I like making compositions; I like collage and printmaking; I like painting; I like sculpture; I liked all of that, and there it was in some ways. All of her pieces were made with found objects. A lot of people do found objects, but they don’t remove them from looking found. Hers were integrated into the composition, somewhat of a cubistic-looking composition.
Her persona, she was a big gal, but she always wore polka dots and stripes and bright colors. She was cheerful looking, and she would wear a bandana around her neck. Everybody loved her and I could see why. She reminded me a little bit of my mom. My mom was a version of Ramona and her sense of humor. Ramona would call it like it is. She didn’t ever try to make it up. She wasn’t charming for the sake of being charming; she was matter of fact, right on. She called it, and you stood there at attention. I just liked her no-nonsense approach, and her jewelry to me was art. I was looking for something I could devote myself to. I had painted. I had done printmaking. I had done everything in college, and everybody was impressed with what I made. I sold everything, but I was looking for something I could wrap my mind around and my physical self around. It seemed like it was the thing, and it certainly was.
Sharon: What was it that moved you so much? Was it the fact that the found objects were integrated so they became part of a piece? What was it that opened your mind to that?
Laurie: Graphically her pieces were—you wanted to own them. You wanted to put them on. They were pendants and things like that, but they were very appealing to me. It harkens back to me going to a house dance down in Salem at Atlanta University, and there being this barn and this guy collaged all this barn stuff all over the wall. I thought it was beautiful. There was a collage like that that Ramona was making, but it wasn’t just Ramona; it was the wholeness of Ramona. She not only had these collections, but she could talk about objects. She had traveled a lot. She had been in the Army, and she had been over in Europe. She had had adventures and was part of the world. She was really a beacon for me.
Sharon: Susan, you knew her too, because I think the first time I ever heard the name was from you.
Susan: I did know her. I think we should also bring in here that the point in time Laurie is talking was during the 60s and 70s, when there was a strong feeling of interest in objects and aesthetics from other cultures. People were wearing beads and bright-colored clothing, and all the things Laurie’s talking about that were in Ramona’s purview were part of what was happening then. Ramona just did it with a particularly great style and attitude. So, I think there was a proclivity at the time for somebody like Laurie, an impressionable young thing, to be intrigued by Ramona.
Laurie: And then the Pencil Brothers and all the things that were going on in Seattle. Seattle was ripe for craftspeople.
Sharon: The Pencil Brothers?
Laurie: The Pencil Brothers, yeah.
Sharon: Who were they?
Laurie: If you read Susan’s book, “In Flux,” you will see—help me out here, Susan.
Susan: It was Ken Cory and Les LePere who were from eastern Washington. They used to show in a gallery called Margolis Gallery in Seattle. Other people from that eastern part did a lot of what Laurie’s calling funk jewelry. We talked about of this in the book “In Flux: American Jewelry and the Counterculture.” Those kinds of things were circulating around at the time in the 60s and 70s in Seattle. The Northwest was very strong in that regard.
Sharon: Laurie, you’re described as being part of the School of Northwest Jewelry. What is that?
Laurie: The Pencil Brothers are part of it, Ken Cory being one of them, and the other one is Les LePere. Ramona is part of that. Merrily Tompkins and Don Tompkins, who were—Merrily was one of Ken Cory’s students. They were all over in Ellensberg. That scene was going on, and then in Seattle there was Ramona. It started with Ramona, but I was paying attention to what I saw.
Susan: Ron Ho.
Laurie: Yeah, Ron Ho.
Susan: Kiff Slemmons
Laurie: Kiff Slemmons, yes, absolutely.
Sharon: What was it, a belief? What made them a part of it?
Laurie: I think a lot of us liked the same kinds of images in terms of the found objects. They were using pencils. Number two pencils; Ramona used those. Ken Cory used them obviously, but I can’t remember if he got the idea from Ramona or he got the idea himself. I saved pencils when I was in college. It was just something you did. I liked them. I like carpenter’s pencils. I’m not explaining this too well, I don’t think.
Susan: Let me give it a try. The Northwest Group, which is mainly Kiff Slemmons, Laurie, Ron Ho and Ramona—those are the major players—they were all doing work that had some familiarity with each other. They were using found objects as part of it, but they also often were making statements or telling funny stories or representing something more dynamic, like traveling the world and collecting bits and pieces from things. Ron Ho was a gay man who was Chinese. The other three were all students of Ramona, and they all did work that was similar to hers, but also very distinctively different. They all had something to say about different topics, and they all saw each other and saw each other’s work. I think there was a strong difference between what they did and what everybody else was doing in the United States at the time. I was interested in showing it in the gallery because I thought it was particularly interesting in that it had something to say and was saying it with objects you could understand, like the pencils Laurie was describing.
Laurie: And the rulers and the compasses. Ramona used dominos. I remember going to New York for my show at the Elements, and I knew were really doing something different than the East Coast. They were into slick things and production jewelry and titanium and all that stuff. I’d seen that in London when I went there. Ramona did a study abroad program, and I went on it with Ron Ho. We saw Caroline Broadhead and Catherine Mannheim and Wendy Ramshaw and all those people. We went to see Wendy Ramshaw, and I realized we were doing something different. It’s what I felt comfortable with: liking antiques, liking the Asian influence in the Northwest, liking the colors. To make things and put rivets in was very exciting. It was a formative way of making jewelry, put a rivet into something and rivet the whole thing together. How exciting.
Susan: And how simple and how direct.
Laurie: And how hard, oh my gosh! You can’t believe once you start putting something together. You’re not in charge; it’s in charge. It’s on the table. It’s flat. You’ve got to make it so it can go onto somebody, and you don’t know how it’s going to get there. You tape it together; you string it together; you do anything you can to make it look like you could put it on. You put it on and say to somebody, “How do you think this is working?” “Well, I think it’s good.”
I remember the café necklace, when I made that, I worked on it Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday. I have to say I skipped school, not Thursday, but Friday and then Monday I think I skipped school too. I never would skip school, but it was very important to me. It was going to Susan. Anyhow, did I know it was going to work? No, that’s half the reason you do it. The way I work, that’s why I do it. I have an idea or I have something I’ve seen, and suddenly you’ll come down to your worktable and everything’s been rearranged. You look down and see an idea right there on the table. It’s very creative. It’s about the piece dictating to you what to do next, and you just keep working.
Sharon: With found objects, do you have a box? Do you collect them on the beach and put them in a box, and you look at it one day and it says, “Make me into this”? How does that work?
Laurie: I don’t always use found objects. Ramona thought it was funny; I said I make found objects, and that’s the truth. I think so much of this jewelry that was made with found objects, people didn’t really make it into a conversation. They just plunk them down. Do I go out to garage sales and all that kind of stuff? No, I’ve got too much stuff to begin with.
I find things incidentally. There’s a ring in the book that’s a one-screw ring. I found that screw on the floor in my school workshop. I asked the guy I worked with if he knew who it belonged to and he didn’t know, so I thought, “O.K., it’s mine.” The eight ball, I found that on the floor in Multnomah Arts Center where I was teaching here in Portland. You just see things. Sometimes it’s a fragment that nobody could even identify, but it makes you have juices in your eyes. You’re really excited. Do I know what I’m going to do with it? Not necessarily.
Sharon: How about when you saw the screw? Did the screw talk to you and say, “Make me into this”?
Laurie: Yeah, I thought that could be a ring because I’d already made a two-screw ring with the flange that I found in the same workshop. I thought it was kind of dirty and funny, which is the juvenile part of me, and that’s why he bought it.
Sharon: How did you segue? You said in school you studied printmaking and all kinds of different arts, but how did you come to jewelry? Did you just keep doing more jewelry?
Laurie: I took a jewelry class from a visiting professor at my university. It wasn’t Ramona, and the guy didn’t know what he was doing, so I had to learn by myself. That didn’t bother me. I’d seen Calder’s work, so I wanted to make jewelry. My first work doesn’t look like Calder exactly. It was of that time period, and Calder had a huge influence on all of us. It was that forging of metal and changing it from one thing to another. Susan, you have a picture of you wearing that wonderful piece—it might be Dorothea Prühl —that looks like great, big paperclips, the steel piece.
Susan: Probably Dorothea, yeah.
Laurie: Yeah, I love her work. There’s this essence of originality that some pieces have, and if you can get in touch with that in your own soul, that’s the best kind of art that can be made because it’s original. I knew right away because I had a fantastic art history professor at Atlanta University. I knew what monumental was; I knew what original was; I knew you had to have a style. It wasn’t that it scared me; it excited me that I could express myself and it could be mine, not anybody else’s. It wouldn’t look like everybody else’s.
Sharon: So, that’s what brought you to jewelry.
Laurie: Yes.
Sharon: How do you describe your jewelry to people when they say, “What do you do?” If you say you make jewelry, they think gems and gold.
Laurie: I always tell them I don’t make jewelry. Sometimes it can be worn. It sometimes goes on the wall in a frame. It is wearable, but forget the word jewelry. It’s a composition that I’m making with different materials.
Sharon: Do people usually get that? Do they understand what you’re saying?
Laurie: Not necessarily. Most people think of jewelry as a category and they can’t escape it. It’s too bad, because more of the exciting pieces are being made with Legos and pieces of wood and recycled stuff. Maria Phillips is shredding a cup, and she’ll put it together with popsicle sticks or whatever. Everything can become a beautiful or interesting piece to look at that ignites another thought. That’s what you want to do. You want to put something out that ignites a thought.
When the piece is in charge, it says what it wants to say. I’m separate from it. It’s like giving birth to child, I suppose. You’ve got to let it free, let it go out there and walk. You put it on somebody, and that’s where the ethnic jewelry—it was on parade. People were wearing it and it was colorful. It had funny things in it that they had never seen before, but you adopted it and you liked wearing it. It fit your style and people were dressing in really fun ways.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marc Auclert
The grandson of an antique dealer, Marc Auclert has had a passion for antique jewelry and objects of curiosity from a young age. Having spent over 20 years working for some of the most prestigious jewelry houses worldwide, including De Beers and Chanel, he opened Maison Auclert in 2011. The boutique specializes in mounting museum-worthy ancient jewels as pieces of contemporary jewelry.
The works of art selected to be mounted are sourced from a broad range of periods, cultures and geographical regions. Each object is chosen for its beauty and rarity; each elegant mounting is designed to showcase, and not overwhelm, the objects’ preciousness, color, patina, shape or symbolism.
Designed to celebrate and enhance the singularity of each Antique work of art, every piece in the Maison Auclert collection is unique, hand-made and embellished by the artisans of the best contemporary workshops in Paris.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Roman Cameo Ring
White and black two-layered onyx cameo representing the bust to the right of Julia Mamaea, mother of Emperor Severe Alexander, Roman Art of the 3rd century AD, mounted on an 18K red gold ring with a surrounding of sapphires (total 1.39 carat).
Impression Intaglio Earrings
18K gold long earrings, set with a Burmese ruby (1.05 carat), an emerald (0.56 carat), 6 diamonds (0.63 carat) and 4 “Grand Tour” intaglios (19th century) in amethyst, chalcedony and carnelian, and their impressions in gold
Helios Ring
Oxidized silver ring with a cut-out that reveals the effigy of the god Helios on a gold stater from Rhodes of the 5th century B.C.
Agate Cuff
Large cuff bracelet in 18K brushed gold set with 5 rhomboid-shaped agate necklace beads, known as "Medicine Beads" for their prophylactic power, Indo-Tibetan art of the 1st Millennium B.C..
Magical Intaglio Necklace
Pendant set with a lacunary hematite « magical » or gnostic intaglio engraved with the right part of a gnostic lion-head deity, the sliced winged-head of the Gorgon in the left hand, two scarabs, Greek letters (ΑΓΒΑ for the magical incantation Abraxas, ΙΑω for the jewish god Yahwe, etc.), Egyptian scarabs and stars in the field, Egypto-roman Art from the 1st-3rd century A.D., a modern extrapolation of the missing part hand-engraved in 18K gold, mounted on a black lacquered chain.
Transcript:
Thanks to jewelry designer Marc Auclert, you can wear a piece of jewelry history around your neck. At his Paris boutique Maison Auclert, Marc transforms jewels from antiquity into contemporary pieces, all while preserving the soul of the original jewel. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why ancient jewelry carries more emotion than contemporary pieces; how he finds jewels dating back to BC; and why the time it takes to appreciate antique jewelry is well worth it. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Marc Auclert, owner of Maison Auclert. After stints at some of the world’s most prestigious auction and fashion houses and having lived all over the world, he now combines museum-quality antiquities with contemporary settings and fashions them into unique and wearable jewelry. Welcome back.
So, people may be walking along, looking at everything glittering in all the windows, but they see your window and say, “Oh, this is really interesting” and come in? Does it stop them? How does that work?
Marc: You can see that it puzzles them. They look at it, and you can see there’s a big question mark, like, “What is that? It looks old, but it’s not antique. Yes, there are antiques in the middle, but the mountings are definitely modern. The volumes are large.” You can see they have to use a few minutes to understand what’s going on. I have to make sure the store is very well-lit and you can see inside very well. They see that there are lots of other things to discover. You need to be a bit courageous to press on the buzzer to be let in, but these people—I’ve seen many, many things. They press on the buzzer. They walk in and say, “What’s going on here?” and very quickly, in two or three sentences, I explain to them that we take genuine antiques that we mount on modern mountings. These are one of a kind.
The other thing I’ve done which you’ll probably find interesting, Sharon, is on the outside display, I’ve put the prices. Lots of friends have said to me, “Oh, I’ve talked about you to my friend. She knew exactly who you were, but she didn’t go in your store because she said it was expensive.” I heard that several times. Because the pieces are original, people thought they were very expensive, whereas in fact, I’m not expensive in terms of money. Prices here go from $3,000 to $50,000 if you want it. It’s lots of money, I understand, but compared to Place Vendome, these are not huge amounts. I even had a person who’s quite important, I saw them at a dinner party and they said, “But Marc, you have nothing less than 50,000 euros,” and I said, “No, I actually have nothing above 50,000 euros.” That’s when I understood that I need to make people understand what type of price position we’re talking about; hence, I put the prices outside with explanations so people would understand. People have walked in much more since.
Sharon: I know that’s a big step. I can see what you mean when you say it takes courage to press the buzzer, because you think, “Oh my god, this is just too exclusive a place.” But if you know there’s something that’s possible within a budget, that you’re not going break the bank, you go in.
Marc: Exactly. Think of the youngsters. You’re 35 years old. You’ve got a budget of $3,000 to $5,000, which is a lot of money. Pressing on the button of a high-end jeweler is super difficult. Pressing the button of any jeweler takes a bit of guts. By putting the prices out, they can see, “Oh, this cute little necklace is $2,800. Let me go and check it closer.” Once the person is inside, you make them feel very comfortable. That’s part of the shopping experience. Then they understand that for their budget, there’s some choice and they can get a wonderful gift.
Sharon: Do people bring you their antiquities and say, “Can you do something with this?”
Marc: I try to avoid that for several reasons. First of all, sometimes these antiques are fragile, and you only discover it when you mount them. When you mount them and break them, then it’s a bore because you have to explain to someone that you broke their piece. When I break my own pieces, that’s fine; that’s my problem. That’s another issue.
Also, it’s because working on a custom order is very difficult. You have to come up with the designs, show the designs to the client, then they come up with reactions. It’s a long, heavy process that sometimes can be very boring because clients have their own idea and you have your own ideas, and only mine are good, let’s face it. When it’s for inventory, I know exactly what I want to do with it, and that’s it. It’s my issue. When you’re interacting with a client, it can be a very cumbersome process.
One of my best clients is American; she’s a New Yorker. She buys from me, and she came into the store about a year ago and said, “Look, I’ve got these two things. Please mount them for me.” Obviously to that lady, I can’t say no; that’s for sure. We do work together and, as I know her well, it was rather easy. She was super happy with the result, but you take a risk because if the person doesn’t know jewelry very well, if she doesn’t know how to look at a drawing and understand it and read it, it is very difficult. You and I, if I show you a drawing of a piece of jewelry, you will understand what it will look like in reality, but lots of people don’t read that well. When you submit the end result to them, they go, “Ah, really?” or, “Can you alter this and do this?” No, too late. It’s done. So, it’s dangerous. To answer your question, I try to avoid it, and I only do it with people I know well.
Sharon: Custom orders to me are nightmares.
Marc: Exactly.
Sharon: I’m sure you make them happy in the end, but it’s hard to read somebody’s mind.
Marc: Exactly, and people don’t always say what they think because they’re not always in tune with what they think. Instead of saying, “Oh my god, I’ve always dreamt of having the same ring as my grandmother, a ring that was lost.” O.K., that’s easy. Show me a picture and we’ll do something around that. Instead, they’ll beat around the bush because they’re not in tune with their inner thoughts. This is psychoanalysis.
Sharon: For the most part, the things in your shop are things you’ve sourced yourself.
Marc: Exactly. To end what we were saying about sourcing, I must add something very important. Now that I’m 10 years old, I’ve got my own network of suppliers. I’ve become friends with lots of them, which is wonderful. They continuously offer me things. They’ll say, “I know you’re into luster and vibrant colors and this, this and that. I thought of you for this Hellenistic intaglio. It’s garnet. The polish is right. The subject is wonderful. Would you like that to mount as a ring?” Yes, because they understood what I’m looking for after 10 years. They make offers to me spontaneously, which is great. You can imagine this is wonderful.
Sharon: What did you during Covid? How did that affect you?
Marc: Nothing much. First of all, for many months, it was compulsory in France to be closed. The French government was extremely generous with businesses like mine being closed. We got some allowances that helped me pay for everything during those closed months, so thank you very much, government. On the other hand, nothing happened in terms of sales because I’m probably not good enough on the internet side of things. Those who did well are those who had e-commerce platforms or were very active on the internet side of things. I’m not. The question is, is my business the type that could have good sales on the internet?
I’m always surprised by the Instagram accounts and the reaction I get on them. I do make one or two sales a month thanks to Instagram. So, the fact that these are oldies but goodies doesn’t mean they can’t be sold on the internet. It’s just me being a mature purveyor that’s not in tune with the most modern things. So, that’s definitely something I’m thinking of, and that’s a result of the Covid period.
Sharon: You have a couple of sales a month through Instagram, and you also buy things you see.
Marc: Yes, only from people I know well for the buying, but for the selling, definitely. It’s mostly American clients. I even sold a piece that was $35,000 thanks to Instagram. It was a wonderful piece posted on Instagram. I got a nice word, “May I have some more information?” I said, “Yes, of course. Here’s my email,” and we started exchanging and the lady purchased it. I was a bit surprised because you know I’m French; I’m traditional, but for her, it was certainly normal. When she received it, I said to myself, “I hope she enjoys it as a much as she thinks she will,” and she was thrilled with the piece.
Sharon: I don’t know what we all would have done without Instagram during Covid. I think a lot of jewelers had to scramble to get online and get up and running. Your Instagram is nice and you have some very nice pictures, and the fact that you sold them through Instagram is great.
Marc: It just proves to you that this is a new world and you’d better adapt to it. I’m giving a good thought to visibility, communication, e-commerce, all of these things. I may be a traditional jeweler, but it doesn’t prevent me from being savvy and in tune with this time.
Sharon: To me, that sounds like you do have an e-commerce platform. Are you saying you’re thinking about doing more with your website? What do you mean?
Marc: Yes, exactly. No, I’m not doing enough. I’m actually a bit lazy on that side of things, and there’s much more to be done. I think if you want to be successful, you have to tackle these subjects, absolutely.
Sharon: It’s a learning curve and it takes time. I’ve seen more and more on Instagram. I’m thinking of jewels, but I’m also thinking of shoes, where the website had nothing, but it was the Instagram account that gave all the information.
Marc: My communication agent, David, says to me, “Don’t waste your time on your website. Who cares? Spend time on your Instagram. How much are you posting?” “Well, I don’t know, once or twice every week.” “No, I think you should post twice a day.” I said, “Well, I don’t have two posts a day.” He says, “Find them. You will.” What’s interesting and what corroborates what you just said is that he says, “Don’t waste your time on your website. Spend time on Instagram.” Interesting.
Sharon: I am certainly not a techie, but it seems like websites have become secondary, almost.
Marc: Exactly. That’s what my communications agent would say. That’s what he says, loud and clear.
Sharon: You said that ancient and antique jewelry has a soul. What does that mean to you?
Marc: It’s very difficult to explain. You either feel it or don’t feel it. If you don’t feel it, you’re not a client of mine, obviously. I’m not superstitious. I don’t believe in ghosts, and I don’t believe in the power of crystals or whatever. I’m really down to earth. My great grandparents were peasants, and that’s what I am deep down. But I do feel that when jewelry has been worn thousands of years ago, appreciated, changed hands to hands, has seen good moments, bad moments, tragic moments, wonderful moments, it seems that they get impregnated with something that’s beyond the intrinsic material. It can be a building; it can be a picture; it can be a piece of jewelry. There is something about antiques that holds stories. Once again, I’m not superstitious, but there is something. When you hold an intaglio that’s 1st century A.D. and you know it’s been worn by a Roman lady or a Greek or Egypto-Greek gentleman, there is something different than if the intaglio were cut 20 years ago. That’s for sure. How, I can’t explain it further than that. It’s a vivid impression.
Sharon: It’s seen a lot. It’s definitely seen a lot.
Marc: It went from hands to hands to hands to arrive to today, where it arrives in my hands, and then I will do something to put it in another one’s hands. It’s like a long chain, which I think is very beautiful and very assuring in terms of constancy. It’s very mathematical.
Sharon: Have you looked at antique pieces or antiquities where somebody said, “This is from this century,” but you’ve looked at it and it seemed dead to you, like you felt there was no life?
Marc: In my place, it’s more aesthetic. For instance, today I was shown a very important intaglio that depicts a house. It was Hellenistic, 3rd or 2nd century B.C. Usually intaglios of that period depict gods and goddesses, princes, etc. Very rarely do they depict architecture, so these are super rare, very valuable, museum quality, museum worthy. But when I held it in my hand, I was like, “It says nothing to me. It’s just a house on an intaglio.” I guess it was more the aesthetics that did not speak to me.
Sharon: I may be naïve in asking this, but the people who bring you these things, where do they find things from the 1st and 3rd centuries? They’re not lying around on the ground.
Marc: They’re not lying on the ground anymore, but don’t forget that since the Renaissance, the 16th, 17th century, definitely 18th century and 19th century, there’s been lots of digging in Italy and Europe. These pieces have been collected since the Renaissance, so you find them in jewelry cabinets. They could be coins; they could be intaglios or cameos; they could be naturalia. They could be all of these things you find.
There is the notion, “wunderkammern,” which is this German word saying that anyone who had a culture in the Renaissance would have had their cabinets full of wonders, wonderful, natural or man-made wonders. If you were anyone of rank, you had to show that you had culture and taste, and you would be a collector. So, these little babies have been collected since the Renaissance, and that’s where we find them today, in big collections. These collections can hit the market, and they have done so since the 19th century. If you take the Marlborough gem collection, for instance, it was sold at auction at the end of the 19th century. That’s how it works. That’s the mechanic of the collection: it is assumed, dissembled at auction, reassembled by certain people, etc.
Sharon: I envision that you have a box somewhere in your shop where you collect things you may not have time to do something with right now, but you said, “Oh, this is really interesting. I’m going to hold onto this.”
Marc: Correct, I have two things in the store. I have things that I’ve bought that I haven’t mounted yet. I know exactly what I want to do with them, but I haven’t mounted them yet because I don’t want too many pieces in the collection. I have 80 pieces. That’s enough; I don’t need 120.
Secondly, I have my own private collection. Sometimes I see a piece and say, “I have to buy this and keep it. I’ve never seen that before. It’s wonderful.” It’s my own private collection. I own lots of jewelry myself and I never wear any jewelry. I’ve got probably 12 super rings with glyptic on them. You will never see me wearing a ring because it doesn’t suit me, but I have the rings.
Sharon: Do you wear some of the ancient stuff you’ve made?
Marc: No.
Sharon: Nothing?
Marc: No. I love jewelry, but not on me. It doesn’t work on me. I don’t have the right hands. I don’t have the physique, and I’m of this generation where men don’t wear jewelry. You just wear a band and that’s it. When I see those youngsters and they’re carrying jewelry very, very well, they’re having fun because it’s a wonderful world. In my case, I’m too traditional; I already told you. I can live with that.
Sharon: It sounds like the jewelry you have is beautiful. Marc, thank you so much for talking with us today.
Marc: No, thank you for inviting me. That was super sweet. When are you coming to Paris?
Sharon: In the next six months, I hope to get there. It’s been a while, but who’s gone anywhere, at least from over here? But I will stop in and say hello. Thank you so much.
Marc: No, you don’t stop and say hello. You come. You make an appointment and I’ll invite you for drinks.
Sharon: Well, I’m going to end the recording and we can talk about where we’re going to go. Hold on one second.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marc Auclert
The grandson of an antique dealer, Marc Auclert has had a passion for antique jewelry and objects of curiosity from a young age. Having spent over 20 years working for some of the most prestigious jewelry houses worldwide, including De Beers and Chanel, he opened Maison Auclert in 2011. The boutique specializes in mounting museum-worthy ancient jewels as pieces of contemporary jewelry.
The works of art selected to be mounted are sourced from a broad range of periods, cultures and geographical regions. Each object is chosen for its beauty and rarity; each elegant mounting is designed to showcase, and not overwhelm, the objects’ preciousness, color, patina, shape or symbolism.
Designed to celebrate and enhance the singularity of each Antique work of art, every piece in the Maison Auclert collection is unique, hand-made and embellished by the artisans of the best contemporary workshops in Paris.
Additional Resources:
Photos Available on TheJeweleryJourney.com
Roman Cameo Ring
White and black two-layered onyx cameo representing the bust to the right of Julia Mamaea, mother of Emperor Severe Alexander, Roman Art of the 3rd century AD, mounted on an 18K red gold ring with a surrounding of sapphires (total 1.39 carat).
Impression Intaglio Earrings
18K gold long earrings, set with a Burmese ruby (1.05 carat), an emerald (0.56 carat), 6 diamonds (0.63 carat) and 4 “Grand Tour” intaglios (19th century) in amethyst, chalcedony and carnelian, and their impressions in gold
Helios Ring
Oxidized silver ring with a cut-out that reveals the effigy of the god Helios on a gold stater from Rhodes of the 5th century B.C.
Agate Cuff
Large cuff bracelet in 18K brushed gold set with 5 rhomboid-shaped agate necklace beads, known as "Medicine Beads" for their prophylactic power, Indo-Tibetan art of the 1st Millennium B.C..
Magical Intaglio Necklace
Pendant set with a lacunary hematite « magical » or gnostic intaglio engraved with the right part of a gnostic lion-head deity, the sliced winged-head of the Gorgon in the left hand, two scarabs, Greek letters (ΑΓΒΑ for the magical incantation Abraxas, ΙΑω for the jewish god Yahwe, etc.), Egyptian scarabs and stars in the field, Egypto-roman Art from the 1st-3rd century A.D., a modern extrapolation of the missing part hand-engraved in 18K gold, mounted on a black lacquered chain.
Transcript:
Thanks to jewelry designer Marc Auclert, you can wear a piece of jewelry history around your neck. At his Paris boutique Maison Auclert, Marc transforms jewels from antiquity into contemporary pieces, all while preserving the soul of the original jewel. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why ancient jewelry carries more emotion than contemporary pieces; how he finds jewels dating back to BC; and why the time it takes to appreciate antique jewelry is well worth it. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Marc Auclert of Maison Auclert. After stints at some of the world’s most prestigious auction and fashion houses and having lived all over the world, he now combines museum-quality antiquities with contemporary settings and fashions them into unique and wearable jewelry. We talked with Marc pre-Covid and are pleased to be visiting with him again. We’ll hear all about his jewelry journey today. Marc, welcome to the program.
Marc: Sharon, thank you for inviting me again.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It seems you’ve been everywhere.
Marc: Well, not really. Recently we’ve been a bit stuck at home.
Sharon: That’s true.
Marc: But beyond that, business has started back and that’s really nice. Clients are back in Paris. Parisians are starting to spend again. It’s been nice since Christmas. We’ve had a very good time. The journey is continuing. This company, which I founded in 2011, is 10 years old, so it’s pretty old. This is a landmark.
Sharon: Congratulations. That is a big deal.
Marc: Thank you. I’ve worked for many grand houses for whom 10 years would be nothing, but when it’s your own company, 10 years is a sweet number, I must admit. I’m very happy. It’s doing well in the sense that it’s making momentum. It’s becoming more and more known, and this is extremely important. Today’s awareness is tomorrow’s success.
Sharon: That’s true.
Marc: My first goal when I opened the company was not to make sales, though it is very important that the company has the cashflow in order to survive, but my first real goal was to build awareness, because I knew from my business experience that today’s awareness is tomorrow’s sales.
Sharon: Well, you got a lot of press early on.
Marc: Yes, I’ve been very lucky. First of all, don’t forget I’ve been in the business for many, many years, so I know many actors, including the press people. So, when I opened my business, I was able to very easily reach out to lots of key people in the communications industry. This, of course, was a great help, and then it was a snowball. You start getting some press releases, and other people take interest. You get French press, then the English will look at it, then the Americans will look at it, etc. So, that’s been very, very good.
Sharon: That’s quite a lot of presence. How did you get into jewelry? Did you always like it?
Marc: I guess so. I have no clear memories of saying to myself, “I want to do this.” The only thing I remember is when I was a child, I was fascinated by the crystal world. I moved from collecting rough crystals to liking cut gemstones. After my general studies I thought, “Oh, that could be interesting, to do a course in that field.” That’s how I went to the GIA in New York, but it was more like a hobby than anything. It was a crisis at the time when I was getting my first job. It wasn’t very easy to get a first employment, and one of the possibilities was to join the industry. As I had general studies under my sleeve plus a GIA diploma, that was my first job I got. That’s how I got interested in jewelry, from crystals to faceted stones to jewelry. Today, to continue the journey, as you call it, I’m more interested in antique jewelry, antique gold, intaglios, cameos and things like that, which is continuing on that path.
Sharon: Why is it that jewelry from antiquity fascinates you?
Marc: I think it’s because I understand modern jewelry very well and it doesn’t fascinate me. Only very few people and very few pieces fascinate me. It’s not because they’re not good; they are wonderful. But the proposition we’re getting, it’s an easy proposition, whereas if you look at antique jewelry, antique stones, antique jewels, be them historical or in museums or whatever, I think they’re more difficult to understand because they’re less pleasing to the eye, but technically and in terms of art history, they’re much more interesting. That difficulty makes them so much more attractive to me, and that’s why I’m selling them to my clients, basically.
Sharon: And they sell to you, I presume, when they bring in something and tell you about it.
Marc: Absolutely. Your question is very important because when you look at a 15th century B.C. intaglio, it’s tiny; it’s not even an inch long. If you don’t actually sit down and have a proper look at it and detail it, which requires a few minutes, then you don’t get it. This is really in opposition to what we see today in jewelry companies’ displays. It’s, bang, in your face. It’s gorgeous. It’s luminous. It’s full of diamonds and stones and it’s evident. Those antique intaglios are not evident. That’s what I like.
Sharon: When did you first start encountering antique jewels? At the auction houses? At the fashion houses?
Marc: When you’re interested in jewelry like you or me, we’ve been in museums. That’s when you get that first encounter and you compute those first pieces you get to see, so there isn’t a step where you actually shift to that. Actually, you get to see them on a regular basis. You don’t stop, really, but they’re growing on you. At a certain age—because I do think it’s a question of acquired taste, hence a question of age—they come back to you. You know these are interesting pieces you need to go back to and understand. So, to answer your question, I’ve been looking at them for a long time, but I’ve been starting to understand them not so long ago. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yes, I think I understand. I think you’re looking at a 15th century piece and the person on it is talking to you, in a sense.
Marc: Exactly. It says so much about the history of art, about humanity, about who did it, how he did it, what tools were used and in what environment. Think no electricity, no motor, everything was handmade in a dark workshop in the pits of a town like Rome or Alexandria. Then you start to understand who wore it, why they wore it, on what they wore it, on what occasion, and you’re really entering history. That’s fascinating.
Sharon: You were with some prestigious auction houses—was it Sotheby’s?—and you started the high jewelry at Chanel. How did you segue to this?
Marc: For me, it’s a journey. It’s a jewelry journey. You start with easy pieces, diamonds for instance. Diamonds are easy. You look at a 10-carat, D, flawless, XXX emerald cut, type 2A with a comb, that’s easy. Everybody loves it. You don’t need to be especially knowledgeable to get it. As you are working with those items, in parallel you know that there are other things that are gorgeous and much more difficult to understand. As you grow older, that’s where your interest goes towards.
You start with the beginning. You start with the diamonds and the gemstones. You start with the gorgeous jewelry, and then you move slowly to Art Deco pieces, then to 19th century, then you go to the 18th century. Then you go to more difficult, the Renaissance, Medieval. Then you go to Byzantine jewelry, and then you enter the whole world of antiquity: Roman, Hellenistic, Greek, Mesopotamian, Egyptian. The further you go up the stream, the more difficult it is, because it’s not as appealing to the eye as your 10-carat cut diamond.
Sharon: I don’t stumble across the 10-carat so much, but I can understand what you’re saying.
Marc: Well, you see them in the windows.
Sharon: Tell us about Maison Auclert. Tell us about the business and what you do. What do you describe at a dinner party if somebody asks?
Marc: It’s exactly how you explained it in the introduction. My job is to find antiques. They can be Mesopotamian; they can be 19th century German or French. The definition of antiques is very broad. There is no geographic location. It can be South American Pre-Columbian; it can be French; it can be Asian, depending on what I find and what my taste goes for.
When I see those antiques, I have to think about how I’m going to introduce them onto a piece of jewelry. Often antique dealers show me beautiful pieces and say, “Look at this. It’s gorgeous. You could make a lovely piece of jewelry out of that.” No, to make a piece of jewelry, you also need some requirements, which is that it has to be jewelry pretty. It’s not because it’s antique that it will be jewelry pretty. It has to be durable. It has to have the right color, the right sheen, the right durability. That’s also an important factor. If it’s too brittle and too fragile, you’re not going to mount it on a piece of jewelry, especially on a ring. In addition to the antique purchasing, which is what all antique dealers do, I also introduce the notion of the jewelry mounting aspect of it.
So, my first job is buying antiques. My second job is then to design around them. That’s another interesting factor in what I do, in the sense that you have designers that take hours, that think about things for hours and ponder and come back to the drawing. In my case, it’s a very instinctual type of creation. When I look at an antique piece, very rapidly I know what I’m going to do with it. If I don’t know what I’m going to do with it, I still buy it. Then it’ll be in my box for many, many months before I have an idea. Basically, if I don’t have the idea straightaway, I forget.
It’s kind of like, “Take me, because you’re going to do this.” It’s simultaneous. It’s rather interesting, the way it works in my little head. I know other designers that work for hours and hours and come up with wonderful designs. In my case, maybe I’m very lazy, but the design comes straightaway, and that’s that.
Then, of course, I finalize it. I speak with the workshop and say, “This is what I have in mind. Here’s a quick sketch. How are you going to make it happen?” There’s the whole technical part of it that is discussed with the workshop. That’s why you have to work with wonderful workshops in the sense that they have to bring that notion of technicality, which is important. That’s how the piece of jewelry gets constructed on paper. Then they will take it onboard—when I say “they,” it’s the workshop. I only use Parisian workshops—and they will start building the piece with a wax model and then cast it in gold. I will go the workshops once a week to follow the building of the piece. Why is that important? Because in the case of my jewelry it’s only one-of-a-kind pieces, so each piece is actually a prototype. So, I have to be there on a regular basis. That’s the reason why I can’t outsource in Italy or Asia or whatever. It has to be made around the corner. I am Parisian. It has to be made in Paris.
Sharon: It’s not because the workshops are better. It’s just that they’re close to you.
Marc: Or better. Parisian work is really, really good.
Sharon: Are they?
Marc: Yes, definitely. A company like Tiffany, they produce their high-end jewelry in Paris. I think that says a lot. You have lovely, wonderful jewelers in Italy and Lebanon. We’ve met them over the years, but I must admit in Paris, we still have a knowhow that is extremely important. How long will they last? I don’t know, but right now, it’s still very much cared for.
Sharon: How do you find these antiquities? Where do you find them?
Marc: All over the world. I browse a lot on the internet. I check all the sales at auction houses, big auction houses, small auction houses, tiny, local, regional auction houses. I have two workers who help me look for what I’m looking for: antique dealers, of course, collectors, private people. But I have to be very careful because, as you know, there are different problems involved with antiquities, regional problems like in the Middle East. There have been lots of naughty diggings being done in certain regions, and hence you get some illegal pieces arriving on the market. That for me is a no-no, first of all because ethically it doesn’t suit me at all, and secondly, I’m a young company, so I can’t afford to be in a pickle. That for me is very, very important. It’s key. The whole issue of provenance, which has to be pristine, is very important. So, I only buy from very, very reliable auction houses, antique dealers, collectors, private people only if I know them very, very well. If someone came off of the street and said, “Hi, look, I’ve got these wonderful intaglios. Are you interested?” my answer would have to be, “Sorry, no,” just because of those subjects.
Sharon: For some reason, I envision that most of your clientele is male. Is it both?
Marc: It’s absolutely both. It’s the same as in the classical jewelry industry. 50 percent of my clientele is female; 50 percent is male. I see exactly the same pattern as the Place Vendome. She will walk in; she will buy for herself, or she will be scouting and then she will be back with someone else to pay for the piece of jewelry because it’s a gift. It’s exactly the same pattern, with more and more women buying the jewelry for themselves. I often get ladies that already have the engagement ring, the tennis bracelet—yes, antique isn’t everything—and they’re in for an intaglio, for instance. They don’t own a Roman intaglio and that’s what they would like, and that’s something they will come and do on their own, definitely, especially as the prices are softer than with precious stone jewelry.
Sharon: Do people stumble on your store? You have a nice storefront. I haven’t been there for a few years now.
Marc: It hasn’t changed. It’s still there, still the same. Now, to answer the question, there are two things. It’s the network. The network is very, very important in any business, especially if it’s a retail business. When I started that business, I already had a client book, and that proved to be extremely important. I also have business partners who have very, very good contacts, so that’s great. That definitely was, how do you say, a jumpstart? That was a very good jumpstart in the beginning.
The second very important thing, as you mentioned, is obviously the location. I have a small boutique, but it’s very well located. In Paris right now, the good retail is concentrating around Place Vendome, Rue St. Honoré, Rue de Castiglione. This area, which always has been good, is now becoming excellent. Avenue Montaigne is going down. St. Germain is going down, to the benefit of the area where I happen to be very lucky to have a boutique.
Sharon: You are in a fabulous location. Are people walking along the street?
Marc: I’m in the middle. All the big the palaces and hotels are around us: the Ritz, the Meurice, the Bristol, Mandarin Oriental. Most of the big hotels are around this area. Of course, you can imagine the type of clientele that walks in front of the window, and that’s wonderful for a small company like mine.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About David Bennett
Regarded internationally as a leading authority in the field of precious stones and jewelry, David Bennett is best known in his role as Worldwide Chairman of Sotheby's Jewelry Division, a post he held until 2020, after a brilliant 42 years career at Sotheby’s. During his prestigious career David sold three of the five most expensive jewels in auction history and as well as seven 100-carat diamonds – earning him the nickname the ‘100-carat man’.
David has also presided over many legendary, record-breaking auctions such as the Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor (1987), The Princely Collections of Thurn und Taxis (1992) and Royal Jewels from the Bourbon-Parma Family (2018).
Among the many records achieved during his career as an auctioneer is that for the highest price ever paid for a gemstone, the CTF Pink Star, a 59.60ct Vivid Pink diamond which sold for $71.2 million in 2017, and the world record for any jewelry sale where he achieved a total of $175.1 million in May 2016.
David was named among the top 10 most powerful people in the art world in December 2013 by the international magazine Art + Auction. In June 2014, Swiss financial and business magazine Bilan named him among the top 50 “most influential people in Switzerland”.
David Bennett is co-author, with Daniela Mascetti, of the best-selling reference book Understanding Jewelry, in print since 1989. They have also co-written Celebrating Jewelry, published in 2012. In 2021, David and Daniela launched a unique website showcasing their unparalleled experience and knowledge in the field of jewelry.
David Bennett grew up in London and graduated from university with a degree in Philosophy, a subject about which he is still passionate, alongside alchemy and hermetic astrology.
Additional Resources:
Website:
https://www.understanding-jewellery.com/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/understandingjewellery/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/UnderstandingJewellery
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/UJewellery_
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/19192787
Photos:
Transcript:
Whether you know his name or not, David Bennett is responsible for some of the most significant jewelry auctions in history. Before retiring from Sotheby’s in 2020, David sold the Pink Star, the most expensive gem ever sold at auction, and whopping seven 100-carat diamonds. He’s also the co-author of the jewelry bible “Understanding Jewelry” with his colleague Daniela Mascetti. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his new business with Daniela; what it was like to handle some of the world’s most precious jewels; and why he thinks gemstones hold incredible power. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is David Bennett, who you may be familiar with. He coauthored with Daniela Mascetti what is often referred to as the Bible of the jewelry industry, and that is the ubiquitous book, “Understanding Jewelry.” David spent his 40-year at the international auction house Sotheby’s. When he left, he held the position of Worldwide Chairman of International Jewelry. He’s a veteran of gemstones and is often called the “100-carat man” because of his multiple sales of hundred-carat diamonds at record-breaking prices. Welcome back.
So, you have hidden gems. Now, are the hidden treasures, the hidden gems, the ones you say, “We think this is a great piece of jewelry,” are those available for people to buy?
David: Yeah, not through us. Basically, we’re offering to be the eyes for collectors. Let’s say in London at a certain resale, we might find a great piece of 1925 Cartier. We’ll photograph it and write what we think about it. It’ll be an appraisal, as it were. This is what you wouldn’t see if you went down the main streets. I think in London the most important resales of collectible jewelry are of the 19th century, early 20th century jewelry. Our offices are not at street level, only shop fronts. We hope at least it’ll be used to appeal to collectors from the Far East who, if they arrive in London or Geneva or Paris, don’t quite know where to go.
Daniela is an excellent lecturer and a great jewelry historian, so she’s been doing these online courses. For example, one recently was on Art Deco. We’re going to be offering those. That’s the other rung, the other important part of Understanding Jewelry, the website we want to do. It’s an education thing as well, not because it’s just education, but also because I think the more you know about something, the more interesting it becomes. You could have some very beautiful jewelry, but the more you know about it, the more interesting it becomes. When you’re wearing it, you know more about it. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yes, it makes a lot of sense. She is an excellent lecturer. I took the Art Deco class online, and I’m looking forward to more of your educational classes.
David: Absolutely, yeah.
Sharon: You mentioned that when you started out in the auction world, it wasn’t collectors or private individuals who came; it was people in the trade, and they’d break up the jewels and that sort of thing. Why did it change? How did it change? What happened?
David: This is back in 1974 with the first sales in London. It’s difficult to imagine now, but there was absolutely no market for 1930s jewelry. If you had big, 1930s diamond bracelets, believe it or not, they were sold and immediately broken up. The stems were taken out and reused, very often poor or bizarrely. The cushion-shaped diamonds in the set were then recut. It’s a modern brilliance. Everything changes. Nowadays people will pay premiums for the old stems and of course, as you know, 1930s jewelry is very, very sought after now.
Sharon: Yes, it’s very hard to find, the 30s. You can find some 40s and of course 50s, but not the 30s. So, what changed?
David: It changes all the time. It happens. This is not something new. In the 19th century, jewelry was being broken up and redesigned all the time. Up until about the 1840s, all the gold had to be reused because they weren’t finding gold—you had the California Gold Rush and then South Africa and everywhere else. In fact, it’s been estimated that something like 90 or 80 percent of the gold in use in 1800 had been in use since Roman times. The other thing is that jewelry is set with stones that are very hard, very durable. Gold doesn’t oxidize. It can be melted down very easily into this basal moss. So, all of this made it very susceptible to being remodeled and restyled.
In the 19th century, this was happening all the time. If you were a fashionable lady in the 1850s, you wouldn’t want to wear, if you could avoid it, an 1830s or 1820s brooch because it would be out of fashion. Everything was in check. This is, of course, very good news for the jewelers who were reusing things, but it made jewelry from before that period much rarer. 18th century jewelry is really, really rare. Diamond jewelry is as rare as hen’s teeth, but most of it, if you think about the great 18th century diamond jewelry, is in the Kremlin from the Catherine the Great period, even though they sold most of it. The Soviets sold it in the 1920s.
The point I’m trying to make is that refashioning and redesigning jewelry is nothing new. In the 20th century, the phenomenon I was watching was the grand jewelry. When you think about it, by the end of the decade—I’m talking about the 1970s—Art Deco jewelry was already becoming collected, so they weren’t breaking them up anymore; they were trying to keep them. But who knows how many bracelets and jewels from that period disappeared. That was from the 1930s to the 1980s, about 50 years.
What we’ve noticed is that the gap between when something is out of fashion and then becomes a classic and returns to fashion has become shorter and shorter. Nowadays people are talking about how desirable 80s jewelry is. It is shortening. So, I think there’s still a lot of room for new collectors to decide where they would like to position themselves. By the mid-90s, there was only one buying public; she was in the Middle East before the fortunes being made from the oil industry. It’s significantly changed the whole look of jewelry, and it started at the end of the 70s. In 1970, you’d walk around Place Vendome in Paris, the great address, and see the great French jewelry. Everything in the windows would have been in platinum and diamonds and so forth, but by the end of the decade, you wouldn’t really see platinum and diamonds; everything would be in yellow gold, which the Middle East likes. There would be colored stones. It would be very colorful. There was a mad scramble during the 70s and 80s to redesign everything for this new market, which had very clear ideas about what they wanted.
The one thing about jewelry, as I say, is that it can be designed relatively quickly, but the invention is the problem, coming up with these new designs, having a style. That’s why everybody looks back to the great years from the middle of the 19th century to 1960, when all these wonderful, new designs were changing. They were really groundbreaking designs.
Sharon: What were your thoughts when you started seeing private individuals at auctions as well as dealers? Did they start trickling in? How did it happen?
David: There were very few private individuals that came to the London jewelry sales in the 70s. They were collectors, so they would argue as to what was coming up. There were a few, a handful of them probably. I can’t think of exactly the date, but around this time, Sotheby’s had purchased a New York brand, Park Van Ness. Very few offices existed at that time. I think there were offices in Florence and Paris when I was there, but there wasn’t this massive expansion that happened in the 80s, which made Sotheby’s increase worldwide.
It was a massive change, and I had my sales like the Duchess of Windsor’s jewels, which was a career-defining moment for me. By then, you had people bidding by telephone from all over the world. It was completely different. The auction room was packed with private individuals clamoring to buy a piece of history, the jewelry where the King of England had given up his throne for the love of a woman. What an amazing story! It caught the imagination of every newspaper in the world. It was fantastic, and it was great jewelry.
The Duke of Windsor, before he was crowned—because he wasn’t crowned—and Wallis Simpson, the American socialite, they both absolutely adored jewelry and had very clear ideas of what they wanted, so the collection was just stunning. I remember when I was doing the catalogue, interviewing Jacques Arpels of Van Cleef & Arpels. He was recounting these extraordinary stories about how the Duke and Duchess would come into Van Cleef & Arpels, and he, as a young man, would have participated in the design of these jewels because they knew clearly what they wanted. If you look at some of the designs in the catalogue, they really are museum pieces. They transformed the look of jewelry in the 20th century, so it was wonderful stuff. That catalogue was a memorable moment.
Sharon: Wow! I can understand that. That would definitely be seared in your mind. I was reading one of the interviews with you in the New York Times. You talk about the fact that with your new business, you wanted to instill a sense of wonder in jewelry. Do you think that has been lost a little?
David: I guess what I was trying to say was that you get to an age—I’m coming to 70 soon, if I make it, very soon actually, alarmingly soon—and you start thinking, “I ought to try to give back some of the pleasure that I’ve got out of this totally unexpected path that I’ve trodden for the last 46 years, or however long it is.” One of the things that used to amaze me, and still does, is the power. The world-record ruby that I sold, I named it the Sunrise Ruby after this wonderful poem by Rumi, the 14th century poet. The owner showed it to me and it literally took my breath away. I was so shocked by it. First of all, it was 25 carats, a huge size for a Burma ruby, the top color. Everything about it was absolutely sensational, magnificent, towering, sterling. I wanted to try to communicate the effects that stone had on me and why, and what I think some people miss. The reason a lot of people miss it is because they haven’t been as fortunate as I have of seeing something like that. You wouldn’t see it walking down Madison Avenue. It wouldn’t be in a window.
Nevertheless, if you can imagine the most wonderful ruby you’ve ever seen, the most wonderful red, a stone like that has infinite power. I made a little video about the Sunrise Ruby. If you look at it online on the Understanding Jewelry site, I talk about why this is so important, particularly to me. It enters into this thing I have with astrology. Rubies, like all gemstones, are related to very important spiritual centers in the body. So, the effect, at least what I sensed, is really felt in the body. The ruby particularly, is known in India as the rise of the king of gemstones, more than diamonds, more than anything else, because it is so powerful. A lot of people say, “Yeah, a ruby’s powerful.” It sounds a bit new age, doesn’t it? But I promise you—like I said, I’m not telling a story; this is true—a ruby of that quality and that size and that color is unspeakable. It’s a wonderful thing. What I wanted to try to communicate is a sense of wonder, because when you’re looking at it, it’s like there’s nothing else; there is only that stone.
Sharon: Did working with gems lead to astrology, or was it philosophy and then to astrology? How did that work?
David: Actually, it’s very interesting. As an astrologer, I was constantly look at patterns, looking backward, looking at the past. Where was it coming from? Where is it leading? Why did it go off in that direction and then come back? Because everything in the end is linked. There’s nothing random about anybody’s life. Nothing happens to you, none of the people you meet, none of the people you marry, none of the places you go are by chance. There’s a reason why I know all of that—and actually, if you think about it, it’s pretty obvious—but what’s not obvious is what the reasons are and what the patterns are.
Let’s say I’d been halfway through 20 years into working with jewelry at auction and at the same time, I was doing more and more in astrology, more and more consulting. I don’t do astrology for money. I don’t charge; I refuse to charge, but I also refuse to do somebody’s chart if there’s anything with which I can help. That’s the playoff, but actually I don’t need to charge. If ever I need somebody to feed myself, then maybe I would. It’s as simple as that. I received it freely, and I’m very pleased to give it back freely. I began to say, “Look, I’ve spent 20 years in jewelry and gemstones out of the blue” when really, if you had asked me at the beginning what I was going do, I would have thought it would be something to do with astrology, making films about it, something like that.
Sharon: I think philosophy is such a brain twister just from my limited exposure to it. I just say, “I’m not good at puzzles.” I admire the fact that it was of such interest to you because for me, it was like, “Oh my god!”
David: Oh, really? I’ve got this property I’m setting out in Burgundy. It’s quite a large, rambling place, and it has a room I’m making into a lecture room. The last two years, of course, nothing has happened. So, I’ve organized with a group of friends some seminars on various subjects. The last one was about ayurveda.
Sharon: It was about what? I’m sorry.
David: Ayurveda.
Sharon: Oh, ayurveda, O.K.
David: And we invited David Frawley, who has written more than 50 books about ayurveda. He’s the great guru of ayurveda, and we built a seminar around him. That’s just one example, but I’ve been doing them maybe once or twice a year, and we’ve done many things. 20 years ago, the first one I gave was about sacred geometry, for example, but more recently they’ve been about healing plants, wild healing herbs and so forth. That’s been great fun. It’s nonprofit. It’s just for fun. Well, more than fun; hopefully people get more than fun out of it, but it’s a different type of learning. It’s trying to get people to look more inwards rather than outwards, if you know what I mean. It’s been a great success, and it’s a great success largely because people have made it a success. It’s a great pleasure for me to be able to share this place with other people to make it work.
Sharon: I’ll have to look at my jewelry again and think about what I was thinking at the time. Sometimes I do ask myself, “What was I thinking?” David, thank you so much for being with us today. It’s great to talk with you.
David: I was interested and it’s good fun. Thank you.
Sharon: Thank you so much.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About David Bennett
Regarded internationally as a leading authority in the field of precious stones and jewelry, David Bennett is best known in his role as Worldwide Chairman of Sotheby's Jewelry Division, a post he held until 2020, after a brilliant 42 years career at Sotheby’s. During his prestigious career David sold three of the five most expensive jewels in auction history and as well as seven 100-carat diamonds – earning him the nickname the ‘100-carat man’.
David has also presided over many legendary, record-breaking auctions such as the Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor (1987), The Princely Collections of Thurn und Taxis (1992) and Royal Jewels from the Bourbon-Parma Family (2018).
Among the many records achieved during his career as an auctioneer is that for the highest price ever paid for a gemstone, the CTF Pink Star, a 59.60ct Vivid Pink diamond which sold for $71.2 million in 2017, and the world record for any jewelry sale where he achieved a total of $175.1 million in May 2016.
David was named among the top 10 most powerful people in the art world in December 2013 by the international magazine Art + Auction. In June 2014, Swiss financial and business magazine Bilan named him among the top 50 “most influential people in Switzerland”.
David Bennett is co-author, with Daniela Mascetti, of the best-selling reference book Understanding Jewelry, in print since 1989. They have also co-written Celebrating Jewelry, published in 2012. In 2021, David and Daniela launched a unique website showcasing their unparalleled experience and knowledge in the field of jewelry.
David Bennett grew up in London and graduated from university with a degree in Philosophy, a subject about which he is still passionate, alongside alchemy and hermetic astrology.
Additional Resources:
Website:
https://www.understanding-jewellery.com/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/understandingjewellery/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/UnderstandingJewellery
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/UJewellery_
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/19192787
Transcript:
Whether you know his name or not, David Bennett is responsible for some of the most significant jewelry auctions in history. Before retiring from Sotheby’s in 2020, David sold the Pink Star, the most expensive gem ever sold at auction, and whopping seven 100-carat diamonds. He’s also the co-author of the jewelry bible “Understanding Jewelry” with his colleague Daniela Mascetti. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his new business with Daniela; what it was like to handle some of the world’s most precious jewels; and why he thinks gemstones hold incredible power. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is David Bennett, who you may be familiar with. He coauthored with Daniela Mascetti what is often referred to as the bible of the jewelry industry, and that is the ubiquitous book “Understanding Jewelry.” David spent his 40-year career at the international auction house Sotheby’s. When he left, he held the position of Worldwide Chairman of International Jewelry. He’s a veteran of gemstones and is often called the “100-carat man” because of his multiple sales of hundred-carat diamonds at record-breaking prices.
He and Daniela just published “Understanding Jewelry: The 20th Century.” They’ve also launched an online business, UnderstandingJewelry.com, which encompasses education, appraisals, travel and more. In his spare time, he is a part-time lecturer in philosophy, and he’s also an astrologer. We’ll hear more about his extraordinary jewelry journey today. David, welcome to the program.
David: A pleasure.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey, how you became involved with jewelry and how you joined Sotheby’s. It’s an interesting story.
David: As you’ve already mentioned, I graduated in philosophy. Most people are rather surprised about that. It’s a wonderful thing to study. It was a long time ago in the distant past. I graduated in 1973. I wanted, after university, to go to the London Film School because I’ve always been interested in film as a medium, but my father, who was basically a Victorian, thought that Hollywood was not the sort of thing for a young gentleman. He cunningly invited me for lunch with a friend of his who was a director at Sotheby’s. He painted Sotheby’s so glamorously, I might say, more than anything else, and he invited me to come on a one-year training in all the things that Sotheby’s sold, from contemporary art to silver. I thought, “Oh, O.K., that’s another year of education.” It was the beginning of many years of education, but I thought I’d try that.
In May of the following year, Britain and most of the world had fallen into disastrous economic times. London was working a three-day week because there wasn’t electricity to power it. It’s amazing when you think of it. Of course, as a result, there were very few jobs, so for the first time in my life until that point, I suddenly thought, “I’d better get about what I’m going to do.” Literally, I hadn’t thought about it. I thought, “Well, something will come up, maybe a lecturer in philosophy.”
So, in this very difficult environment, my father’s friend came to me and said, “Look, David, I’ve got a job for you.” I said, “Great, what is it?” He said, “It’s in the jewelry department,” and I said, “The jewelry department. I don’t even know how to spell sapphire. Is it two p’s or one?” He said, “You’ll love it. They have sales. They just started having sales in Switzerland. There’s a lot of travel, and you’ll be getting in at the ground floor of very interesting subjects.” I was very skeptical about it, but he said, “Look, more important than anything else, you need a job because the world’s going into a very difficult time.” In fact, he turned out to be right, because it was at least 15 years before we started to get out of this massive crisis at the time. So, I took the job and that’s how I got into it. It was sort of through the back door.
I knew nothing about jewelry, absolutely nothing about jewelry. It was a huge learning curve, a huge apprenticeship. I think I mentioned to you that I went out early on and bought some sheets of gold and silver. I learned how to work with the metal and how difficult it is to set a stone in a ring. I wanted to know about everything. I wanted to know about Roman jewelry, Greek jewelry. I thought, “If I’m going to spend my whole life doing this, I don’t want to have any bits that I don’t know at least something about.”
So, that’s how I began. As always in careers, you get a lot of lucky breaks. People seemed to like me, which is very surprising, so there you are. I got quickly promoted, and my first big job was running the London Jewelry Department. That was in 1984. I took my first auction in 1979. The big break after that was that I was promoted to head of jewelry in Europe and the Middle East in 1989. I moved with that promotion to Geneva, which was a great move, a wonderful place. Then I started having to make my mark. I was in a highly competitive environment. Christie’s the main competitor. It’s an extremely good company as well.
We ran sales in Geneva. My principal sales were in Geneva twice a year and once at St. Moritz in the winter, at which we competed to do the largest turnover and the biggest, record-breaking sales and the biggest, record-breaking stones and so on. It was a great time, and I continued doing that until two years ago when I retired. By then, I’d become Worldwide Chairman of Sotheby’s. During this career, I was very lucky because I saw some of the greatest jewels in the world. I still hold the world record for the most expensive diamond ever sold at more than $70 million. I sold the most expensive ruby ever sold for more than $30 million. There were so many wonderful collections, like the Windsor Sale in 1987, which is what made my name really. The jewels of the Duchess of Windsor are still the most incredible auction. So, it was a combination of determination and lucky breaks. Everybody’s career is like this.
Sharon: What were your thoughts the first time you looked at a 100-carat? Was it, “Oh, there’s another diamond?” or was it “Oh my god, how could that be?”
David: The first time I saw one was in the summer of 1990. I had just arrived in Geneva. I put together my first sale, really, in Geneva, and I wanted to make a mark, to do something that nobody else had done. I can see it now. In those days, I was in this splendid Medieval chateau in the middle of nowhere in France, and I got a phone call. In those days, mobile phones were virtually unheard of, so it was a big thing like a brick, and this chap said, “I’ve heard about you. I’ve got a very important stone I’d like you to come and see. Would you be able to come to Antwerp to meet me?” In those days, the answer was always yes. So, I left my family there and took a plane right to Antwerp.
This young chap, about the same age as me, passed a little bag across the table, and there was the first hundred carats of the Pashe Stone. Extraordinary. It was D color, internally flawless, actually like a piece of ice. It was absolutely crystal clear. I fell in love with it, so he said, “Do you think you could sell it?” I said I had absolutely no idea, but I’d love to try. He said it was $12 million. I can’t remember the exact figures for it. That was probably nearly double what any other diamond had ever sold for, but in the beginning when you take risks, you’re very comfortable.
When I got home that night, my wife said to me, “You look worried. What’s the matter?” I said, “Well, I think I may have made the biggest mistake of my career.” She said, “What?” I said, “I’ve taken a diamond worth $12 to 15 million.” And she said, “You’re kidding me.” I said, “No.” And then she said that awful question that began to haunt me: “Who would you be selling it to?” At that point, I didn’t know. I had three months to find somebody. I remember it was rather amusing because the timing could not have been worse. A week after that—you’re just about old enough, I think, to remember—Hussein invaded Kuwait. Do you remember?
Sharon: Yes.
David: You may remember what happened, because I remember it vividly. The world went into shock. Markets dropped. In Switzerland—can you believe it—we all had to suddenly take rations into our air raid shelters. I thought, “Oh, that’s that, then. At least it lets me off the hook. Maybe he doesn’t expect it to sell now.” Either way, it was a bit of a relief.
After this, I decided to start taking it around the world a bit. I took it to certain countries in the Middle East and began showing it to possible clients. One chap, I’ll never forget it, came in and said, “Sir, can I see the stone?” and I said, “By all means.” He’s looking at the stone, and I’m thinking, “He’s been looking for a long time. Honestly, he really seems to like it.” So, I said, “Sir, are you buying for your wife?” There’s a young man talking; my naivete. He looked at me with a slight grin and he said, “No.” So, I said, “For somebody else, then?” He said, “No, it’s for nobody.” I said, “You want it because you think it’s an investment?” He said, “Maybe partly, yes.” I said, “What’s the main reason?” He said—it’s something that’s stuck in my mind ever since—“How can I put $14 million in my pocket any other way?” Maybe uranium. You’d still need a lead box, but it was an extraordinary thought. When you’ve got war around, this sort of thing matters, doesn’t it? It’s portable value. Throughout history, for the last 4,000 years, jewelry has also been used for that specific purpose because it’s very portable.
So, I get up on the rostrum. I have no idea that I’m going to sell it. I think there were 200 lots before the final lot with this 100-carat diamond. The sale was going quite well. I opened the lot. I think I opened at $8 million. There wasn’t much interest at all when they start bidding. Suddenly, right at the back of the room, this chap started waving his hand. I took the bids from him and knocked it down for him, “Sold!” All the cameras and TV stations and radios in the room are approaching the rostrum where I was standing. Of course, the first question to me is, “Who’s the buyer?” Now, I looked at the back of the room, and the man who had raised his hand, as I was being asked the question, was moving very quickly out of the back of the room. I said, “Oh my god!” because that was the worst possible thing that could have happened in those days. This was before you had to register to bid. It could have been some sort of maniac. So, I quickly got my colleagues sitting beside me. I said, “Run after him. Find out who it is.” Luckily, they found him as he was leaving the hotel where we had been holding the sale. He was in fact the driver, the chauffeur, of the buyer. So, I was lucky that I was able to announce the buyer.
That was the first of many extraordinary experiences with highly valued stones, pink diamonds, blue diamonds. They make millions and millions. Within 10 or 15 years, $12 million had been dwarfed by bigger stones and higher-value things. It was an extraordinary career when I look back at it. I’m quite busy doing what I’m doing now, to be honest with you. There comes a point where something like that, that is so unpredictable—you don’t know what the next stone is going to be, what the next collection is going to be—you suddenly start thinking, “Actually, I’ve done that. I’d like to do something else.” That’s when Daniela and I, about two years ago, decided we would retire. We were above the age we were expected to do that, so we set up this company, which so far has been great fun.
Sharon: You mean your online company, UnderstandingJewelry.com.
David: Yeah.
Sharon: Did you decide to write the book and then it occurred to you to do this?
David: No, the history of the book is a thing in itself. Believe or not, I’m thinking back to 1986. I got a phone call. I’m in the office and this chap was on the phone. He said, “Mr. Bennett?” I said, “Yes.” He said, “I’m so-and-so. I’m from a publishing company. I’d like to take you for lunch,” and I said, “O.K.” We fixed it for a week’s time. We arrived at this restaurant, and he said, “Thank you. Now, I’ll explain why I want to see you,” and as he did so, he slid across the table an envelope. He said, “Have a look inside.” Inside in the envelope was a check for a man who just had his second baby, a check for the sort of sum of money that makes you think. I said, “What is this for?” because I was suspicious. He said, “That’s an advance, because you’re going to write me a book, and it’s going to be called ‘Understanding Jewelry.’ Amazing, isn’t it?” I said, “Really?” and he said, “Well, what do you think?” I said, quite candidly, “That amount of money is quite persuasive. Let me think about it.” I thought about it for a couple of days and said yes, and he said, “O.K., I want the first manuscript within a year,” and they published the book within two years.
When I got back to the office, I said, “Goodness me, O.K. Well, you’d better get started.” I began quickly to realize that I wasn’t going to be able to do this on my own because I had so many other things going on. Daniela was working with me in London at that time, so I approached her because she’s a real academic. She loves research and everything else, so I said, “Look, would you be interested?” and she said, “Yeah, absolutely. Let’s do it.” That’s where it began.
It took about two years to write it. In those days, writing a book like that was much more complicated because when you put the book together, you have the negatives of everything, and you can imagine there were a huge number of photographs in the book. Each one of them had to be printed. It’s not like nowadays, where you have digital photographs. It was a massive task, and without Daniela it would never have been written. We brought it out in the autumn of 1989, just as I was leaving to go live in Switzerland, and it was a huge success right from the word go. We thought, “We’ll sell a few copies.” In fact, it’s been incredible. They’re saying it’s the largest selling hardback book in jewelry in the world. It’s been around so long.
Sharon: It wouldn’t surprise me. I know you’ve had several updates.
David: And 10 reprints, separate editions in Russian, Japanese, Italian, Hungarian, even. It’s been great. In 2012, we decided that we’d become old and ugly enough to think about another book, so we wrote one for ourselves called “Celebrating Jewelry,” which was done for our own pleasure. We just chose items that we’d sold throughout our careers and wrote a book about it. That was also celebrating the new photography that was available. “Understanding Jewelry: The 20th Century” came out at the end of last year. It’s selling very well. We’re working now on another book, “Understanding Jewelry: The 19th Century.” We’re both looking forward to it, as it’s one of our favorite periods of the history of jewelry.
Sharon: What made you decide to write “Understanding Jewelry: The 20th Century?” What made you decide it was time to write another book?
David: It was very simple, actually, because “Understanding Jewelry” runs a timeline. It begins from about 1750 and runs all the way through to when it was written, the late 20th century. With 20 years of hindsight about the 20th century, we’re a little bit distant; we have a little bit of perspective about it. We thought the obvious thing to do was to complete the last two decades of the 20th century with the best of hindsight and everything else. It became clear to us that we’d like to do that also to the 19th century. So, we decided to have two new volumes which go into more depth about each of the time periods.
Sharon: Did you decide to launch the online business when you were writing the book? Did you think, “Oh, this would make a great business online?” or had you already thought about doing an online business?
David: I was thinking about it with what’s happened in the last 10 or 15 years in our careers. What became quite clear to me was the power of the internet, particularly, for example, on the auction business. 20 years ago, you would have had virtually no bids coming online because they wouldn’t be online. Even before I left two years ago, huge portions of the sale were being sold to online bidders, very often people who’d never seen a piece of jewelry that was being sold. It seemed to me that there was this opportunity for us to offer a service to people who were collectors of jewelry, but weren’t able to see the jewels themselves. A lot of the new collectors are, as you know, from the Far East and, increasingly and in very recent times, from mainland China. What I think people need in this new online world is—we wanted to offer a sort of endorsement. We wanted to be able to say that we think this is a wonderful piece of jewelry. We’ve seen it. We’ve handled it.
We have this section to bring out very shortly, in the next month or so, beginning with London and Geneva and then New York and other cities, looking at what’s on offer within the trade. We call it “Hidden Treasures,” because a lot of the great jewelry retailers or specialized retailers are not shop fronts on Madison Avenue or on Wall Street. You have to know where they are, and we’ve chosen pieces in their retailers to write about. We’re not owned by price; we’re not trying to sell them. It’s just to say that these are great pieces; have a look at them. See what you think, and we offer other services that offset our evaluation services.
This summer in June, we’re starting our first tour. It starts in Burgundy, where I’m sitting now, at my property in Burgundy, and then we move to Paris. We’re going to take a group of 12 or 14 collectors. It’ll be lectures and visits. Hopefully, the idea is that it’ll be nearly a week of entertainment but also study. It’s meant to be a learning thing as well as being entertaining. We’re going to visit some great restaurants around here, great restaurants in Paris. We’re going to visit the remaining French crown jewels. We’ve also been invited by some of the major historic jewel companies, Cartier, Boucheron, Valeria, so we’ll be taking this group there to have an insider’s look at these companies. This particular course, which will be between Burgundy and Paris, as I said, will feature jewelry from 1880 to World War II, so Belle Epoque, the Gaden style and Art Déco very roughly. It will be quite an intense six days I think, speckled with fun.
Sharon: I’m sure. It sounds very intense. It sounds like somebody would learn a lot.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Bella Neyman
Bella Neyman is the co-founder of New York City Jewelry Week. She is also an independent curator and journalist specializing in contemporary jewelry. Most recently she was on the Curatorial Advisory Committee for 45 Stories in Jewelry: 1947 to Now at the Museum of Arts and Design in New York. Since graduating with a Master’s Degree in Decorative Arts and Design History from Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum & Parsons, The New School for Design in 2008, she has worked for some of New York City’s leading design galleries. Bella’s articles have been published in The New York Times, American Craft, and the Magazine Antiques. She is also a frequent contributor to Metalsmith magazine. Bella is on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum. She resides with her family in Brooklyn.
Additional Resources:
Links for two of Bella's upcoming classes: Studio Jewelry: From Mid-century to the Present starting Monday, March 14th!! https://education.christies.com/courses/continuing-education/short-courses/studio-jewelry-from-mid-century-to-presentJewelry Jaunts- Mondays, April 25th - May 23rd 11am-12:30pm
For this class, registrants can sign-up with code 'EARLY' to receive a 10% discount. https://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/eventReg?oeidk=a07eiy0iu2pe3f8ecba&oseq=&c=&ch=Transcript:
Now in its fifth year, New York City Jewelry Week has changed the American jewelry landscape for good. The annual jewelry show is much more than just shopping—with workshops, educational opportunities, and showcases of every type of jewelry imaginable, there is something for every jewelry lover. NYC Jewelry Week co-founder Bella Neyman joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what she and her partner JB Jones have in store for 2022; why they want the week to feel like opening up a jewelry box; and how you can support NYC Jewelry Week’s programs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Bella Neyman, a woman who wears many hats in the world of jewelry. The primary one is as a mover and shaker among jewelry professionals. Her other hats include jewelry curator, historian, author, educator and cofounder of New York City Jewelry Week, or NYCJW as it’s known. If you haven’t heard part one, go to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Welcome back. As a curator, I know you curated a glass jewelry exhibit several years ago. Are you thinking about anything else right now? Is there anything on the horizon?
Bella: At some point, I started working at a jewelry gallery—this was prior to Jewelry Week—and I had the opportunity there to curate many shows. That was essentially my role there. Since then, Jewelry Week takes up so much of my time. The lectures are great because I can do them in spurts, but I don’t really have the time that curating an exhibition requires. I was part of the curatorial committee for “45 Stories in Jewelry.”
Sharon: At MAD, the Museum of Art and Design.
Bella: MAD, yeah. I was part of that, and that was incredible. It was an incredible experience and I loved it. I have been asked to curate some exhibitions, some gallery shows outside Jewelry Week. It’s a bit hard because Jewelry Week takes about 10 months to put together, so it becomes too challenging to focus on.
Sharon: Just to make sure everybody knows, it’s November 18 or 14 to 20.
Bella: November 14.
Sharon: Mark your calendars. It’s in November, and that’s around the corner when you think of all the work that has to go into it. Are you partnering with anybody this year? I know you have in the past. Are you doing it yourself? How is that working?
Bella: We are going into our fifth year, and JB Jones is my partner. She’s the other half of New York City Jewelry Week, and we’re really excited about this year. As I said, it’s our fifth year, so it’s a big deal for us. This is the time of year when we start thinking about what the program will look like. We’re already having conversations with some of our previous sponsors and partners who come in on some of the different initiatives we work on throughout the year.
I think what most people don’t recognize or realize, I should say, is that New York City Jewelry Week, while we have this one week in November, we work year-round, not just on planning the week, but on supporting the industry in ways that are meaningful to us. We have two platforms. One is called Here We Are, which is our platform dedicated to equity and inclusivity in the jewelry industry. We have another platform called One for the Future, which focuses on mentorship for emerging creatives in the jewelry industry. We spend a lot of time focused on both of those platforms. Education is also incredibly important to us, so we partner with the 92nd Street Y, for example, on educating youth about opportunities in jewelry post-high school graduation. There are lot of things we work on even before we get to November.
Now is when we are starting to have conversations with jewelers, with artists, with curators. This is really exciting for us because everything is fresh and everybody’s buzzing with ideas. It’s really great to see how important and meaningful Jewelry Week has become, especially to independent jewelers. So many of them plan for it throughout the year. Last year, so many jewelers approached us and said, “O.K., for 2022, this is what I’m doing.” It’s great to start having these conversations with them now because, yes, it’s around the corner, but at the same time, there are so many things that can still happen between now and then. So, it’s really exciting for us.
Sharon: I’m in awe and amazed that it’s your fifth year. I can’t believe you created this and kept it going. It’s amazing. What made you and JB decide to start it?
Bella: We didn’t realize how much work it was going to be. I think if we knew back then what we know now, we might have reconsidered. In all seriousness, the reason we did it is, first, I know this sounds cliche, but we love jewelry. We really love and value the independent voices and creatives that make this industry what it is. It’s not easy. Being a jeweler is not easy, so we wanted to create a platform that would celebrate jewelers, that would make it a little bit easier for them to reach a consumer. There’s a lot of competition. There’s a lot of jewelry out there, so we wanted to make sure we did something that would support them.
There are other examples of jewelry weeks around the world. We’re not the first ones, certainly. My exposure to jewelry weeks came from the European model, going to SCHMUCK, going to HOYA, going to Paris for Cours de Bijoux. I saw their festivals and the energy, and that to me was so wonderful. We wanted to do it in New York, but again, we wanted to do something that included all different types of jewelry, because we really believe in providing something for everyone. That’s important. We all come to jewelry from different places. Jewelry’s a powerful thing. We all adorn our bodies in different, meaningful ways, and we wanted to create something that was for everyone. Our motto is “Jewelry for All,” and we really believe that. That’s why Jewelry Week, as we curated it, is very different from other jewelry weeks, because it’s fine jewelry; it’s costume jewelry; it’s antique. It’s jewelry from non-precious materials.
If you open up a jewelry box, most of the time you have different things in there. You have things you’ve picked up on the street. You have things that were given to you by your partner, something passed down from your grandmother, some things you love, some things you don’t, some things you want to recreate into something you’re going to wear every day. That’s what we wanted. We wanted it to be like a jewelry box. You open it up, and there’s this explosion of different things and a sense of discovery.
The last five years have been incredibly difficult, to be honest with you, because we’re very grassroots. We fundraise. Every year, in the beginning of the year, we start fundraising for the year ahead. JB and I don’t take a salary. I’ve talked about this before, but we don’t take a salary. We have an incredible group of volunteers and consultants we work with. Most people volunteer their time. That has been one of the most beautiful things about this week, and we hope it’s made a difference. I think it has, because, as I said, I have jewelers reaching out to me a year in advance saying, “Next year, I’m doing a solo show during Jewelry Week.” That has been really special for both JB and me.
Sharon: That’s exciting. I don’t have all the experience you have in terms of going to different shows, but the ones I have gone to, the way New York City Jewelry Week is different is like you were saying. You cover equity and diversity and all these things. To me, everything else is a show. It’s like, “How much can I sell? Here’s my table of wares.”
Bella: Yes, absolutely. We believe to reach a consumer, you have to do it through education first and foremost. For us, it’s not about the hard sell. It has never been about how many trunk shows we can pad this one week with. It has always been about beautifully curated moments. It’s been about intimate settings. It’s been about exhibitions. It’s been about access. It’s been about giving people an up-close look into work that maybe they weren’t familiar with. It’s about opening the doors to a museum collection. It’s about having lectures and talks and workshops, and it’s really meant to be a discovery.
Yes, it’s in New York, but it’s more than that. New York is home to so many different voices and different cultures, and that’s what we want to celebrate. Everybody says to us, even if they’re coming from another part of the world, “Oh my god, I want to do this in New York,” because New York has always been the pinnacle. It’s this city. If you’ve made it in New York, then that’s it; you can make it anywhere. As cliche as that sounds, it’s really true. We do have a lot of New York-based designers who participate, but we also have artists coming from all over the world. We help them do pop-up spaces, and they do exhibitions and talks and panels. It’s a great week for discovery.
Sharon: Wow! It sounds like it. I’m thinking about how hard it must be trying to find even one space to put on a panel. How about sponsors? Do you find more sponsors now by saying, “This is real. It’s not just a flash in the pan.” Do you find more are coming to you?
Bella: Yes and no, absolutely. We still have to send a deck, but we do have a lot of returning sponsors, which has been wonderful. We really believe in building relationships, and we’ve been fortunate to have some great sponsors over the years who keep coming back: 1stDibs, eBay. They’ve been wonderful.
It’s also been great to find new partners and sponsors to work with every year. We welcome that, just like every year we want to work with new and different designers and creatives and retailers, but the last two years have been incredibly difficult because of the pandemic. Like other small business, we’ve obviously felt it. Budgets aren’t what they were, marketing budgets and production budgets and event budgets. Events were cut and, essentially, we’re an event. In some cases, it’s been easier; in some cases, it’s been very difficult. We’re optimistic and we’re still here, but the only way we can continue growing and continue existing is if we continue getting sponsorship dollars. So, if you’re listening and you’re interested in becoming a sponsor, please reach out to us. You can always reach out to us on Instagram, or you can email me. We’d be happy to have a conversation.
Sharon: There’s a lot of exposure for your sponsor, so it’s definitely something to consider. You’re doing it virtually and in person.
Bella: Yes. Last year we did a hybrid model, and we’re going to be doing it again. It’s a wonderful way to reach a broader audience. It’s also a wonderful way for us to include artists and designers who might not be able to participate otherwise. Some of my favorite moments of the last two years were from the virtual programing. We did this incredible program of jewelers from South Africa two years ago. They recorded a fashion jewelry show for us. Last year we also did a presentation with Wallace Chan. Wallace Chan released a new book last year. There were, I think, five different authors for that book, and they’re all in different parts of the world. What a great way to have Wallace do an intro and be present and to have these authors be present. Again, we reach a much broader audience that way, too.
Sharon: It’s such an entrepreneurial endeavor, Jewelry Week. It’s creating something out of nothing. Is this something that runs in your blood? Is it in your family?
Bella: Not at all, absolutely not at all. I think JB and I were so excited and so passionate about this, and we thought, “Let’s just do it.” But no, no entrepreneurs in my immediate family.
Sharon: I realize it’s a lot of work, but you must be so proud of what you’ve done going into your fifth year. That is amazing and awe-inspiring.
Bella: Yes, I guess. I never think about it until it’s over, until that Sunday in November when I look around and think, “Oh my god, that was magic. We did that.” Until I get to that point, it’s a lot of hard work.
Sharon: Watching your posts on Instagram, it seems like it’s never over. You have a lot of after-marketing, too.
Bella: Yeah, it’s never over. Again, our goal is to support the industry year-round. It’s never over because, for the jewelers who we partner with and are part of Jewelry Week, it doesn’t end for them. Jewelry Week is just one week. They’re making work, they’re selling work, and we want to be there to keep shining a light on them. Our work is never done.
Sharon: Let’s say you go to SCHMUCK or to another gallery and you see a jeweler you’ve never seen before, do you say, “Hey, would you like to be part of Jewelry Week?” Has that happened?
Bella: Absolutely, all the time. That’s actually how year one happened, because nobody knew about us. Now we have people who apply and are participating. We also curate a large portion of it. We invite people, but people can also apply to participate. I think for me, that’s also been one of the most challenging things with the pandemic. I haven’t had the opportunity to travel to see someone’s studio. I haven’t had the chance to be inspired in the way I would be otherwise. But yes, all the time, we see work we love. JB is always searching and researching on social media, discovering new voices, new work. We try to make sure the program is different from year to year. If somebody showed last year, we probably wouldn’t invite them back unless there was a real good reason to. So yes, we’re always looking, always discovering, always inviting.
Sharon: It’s a great calling card in so many ways. I’m imagining how it was the first year. Potential sponsors were probably saying, “Yeah, come back to me when it’s bigger."
Bella: Yeah, absolutely. People always want to see you prove yourself, especially when it comes to giving their time and money. They always want to make sure you’re serious about what you’re doing. To be honest with you, we won part of the jewelry industry. Most people in the jewelry industry didn’t know us unless they were in the contemporary jewelry world, and then they already had a sense of who we were. Otherwise, it was like, “Who are these two women? What is this they’re trying to do? What’s a jewelry week? Why do we need it?” There are some partners who—for example, Bergdorf Goodman has always been this bastion of cool, chic, New York glamor. They’ve been with us from the beginning as a partner. There are some individuals who believed in us and have been with us for five years. Other people were like, “Yeah, let me see how it goes and come back to me,” and that’s fine too. We get it. We understand.
Sharon: Can somebody be a real member of the jewelry industry without being in New York or London or Paris? We’re in Los Angeles. Not that there aren’t great jewelers out here, it’s just not New York. What do you think?
Bella: I think you can find success no matter where you are, especially in this day and age, with everything being done virtually, with business being conducted over Instagram. I know designers living in New York who don’t produce their jewelry in New York; they produce it in L.A. I think you absolutely can if you’re passionate about what you’re doing, if you have a vision, if you have a business you build right. Everything takes time, but I think if you love it, if you believe in what you are doing and if it drives you, then you can be successful no matter where you are.
Sharon: You certainly have been successful. Have we covered everything? You have such a wide variety. Is there something else you want to mention?
Bella: I would say that if you’re interested in what we’re doing, you should follow us on Instagram. It’s @NYCJewelryWeek. That’s also our website. Over the last five years, we’ve grown quite a bit. We have a wonderful blog—it’s really interesting and informative—called Future Heirloom. Even when there isn’t a program up on our website, there’s always great content. I encourage everyone to check out our Instagram and to go to our website.
If you’re interested to know what classes I’m teaching, you can follow me on Instagram. It’s just my name, @BellaNeyman. I’ll always share what I’m up to. And just reach out. We’re not a large corporation. We are two individuals who love what we do, so we hope people feel comfortable being in touch, and I should say most people do. They tell us what they love, what they hate, if they need help, even if they’ve never meet us. Most people feel comfortable chatting with us, so stay in touch.
Sharon: We’ll have links to your social media on the website when we post the podcast. I do have to say that I’ve discovered a lot of your courses and other things you do because I follow you. I’ll say, “Oh, she’s teaching that,” or “She’s doing that.” That’s great.
Bella: Thank you.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today.
Bella: My pleasure.
Sharon: It’s been great. Thank you.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Bella Neyman
Bella Neyman is the co-founder of New York City Jewelry Week. She is also an independent curator and journalist specializing in contemporary jewelry. Most recently she was on the Curatorial Advisory Committee for 45 Stories in Jewelry: 1947 to Now at the Museum of Arts and Design in New York. Since graduating with a Master’s Degree in Decorative Arts and Design History from Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum & Parsons, The New School for Design in 2008, she has worked for some of New York City’s leading design galleries. Bella’s articles have been published in The New York Times, American Craft, and the Magazine Antiques. She is also a frequent contributor to Metalsmith magazine. Bella is on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum. She resides with her family in Brooklyn.
Additional Resources:
Links for two of Bella's upcoming classes: Studio Jewelry: From Mid-century to the Present starting Monday, March 14th!! https://education.christies.com/courses/continuing-education/short-courses/studio-jewelry-from-mid-century-to-presentJewelry Jaunts- Mondays, April 25th - May 23rd 11am-12:30pm
For this class, registrants can sign-up with code 'EARLY' to receive a 10% discount. https://events.r20.constantcontact.com/register/eventReg?oeidk=a07eiy0iu2pe3f8ecba&oseq=&c=&ch=Transcript:
Now in its fifth year, New York City Jewelry Week has changed the American jewelry landscape for good. The annual jewelry show is much more than just shopping—with workshops, educational opportunities, and showcases of every type of jewelry imaginable, there is something for every jewelry lover. NYC Jewelry Week co-founder Bella Neyman joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what she and her partner JB Jones have in store for 2022; why they want the week to feel like opening up a jewelry box; and how you can support NYC Jewelry Week’s programs. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I attended this conference in person for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Bella Neyman, a woman who wears many hats in the world of jewelry. The primary one is as a mover and shaker among jewelry professionals. Her other hats include jewelry curator, historian, author, educator and cofounder of New York City Jewelry Week, or NYCJW as it’s known. Bella joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast several years ago talking about NYCJW when it was in its infancy. Today, we’ll hear more about her own jewelry journey, what’s in store for NYCJW this year, and more about her background. Bella, welcome to the program.
Bella: Thank you so much, Sharon. Thank you for having me back again. It’s exciting to be here. Thank you.
Sharon: You’re involved in so many things, it was so difficult to write an intro.
Bella: When I hear that, it makes me think, “Wow, is she talking about me?” I don’t know. I do the things I love. Sometimes I forget I do so many things.
Sharon: Did you set out to do that? Did you know that when you became a jewelry professional? I’m sort of backing into this, but did you know that you were going to be involved in so many things when you became a jewelry professional? Or did you have one specific thing in mind?
Bella: I had no idea. To be honest with you, I didn’t really know that I would end up in jewelry. I went to Cooper Hewitt/Parsons for their Decorative Arts and Design master’s program. I never took the jewelry course. I was interested in design and decorative arts. Getting ready to have this conversation with you, what I realized is that I didn’t find jewelry; jewelry found me. I’m glad it did, obviously, because I love what I’m doing, but I did not think jewelry was going to be my focus at all, actually.
Sharon: Were you a designer? Were you artistic as a kid?
Bella: No, not at all, and I’m still not. I can sew a button. I can draw a straight line, but I’m completely not artistic. I’ve always loved art. I grew up around it. I was actually born in Russia—geographically, I should say I was born in Ukraine, but I’m Russian. I moved here when I was seven years old. I moved to America; I moved to New York.
My parents were always interested in the arts. My mother was a librarian at an art museum in Odessa, which is the city where I was born. I am an only kid, so my parents always took me with them to wherever they were going. My father is a collector, so I always grew up around it. When we came to this country, because my parents didn’t have anyone to leave me with, I always went with them everywhere. That’s how I’m raising my daughter now. She goes with me everywhere, and we try to expose her to so many different things.
So, I was always interested in the arts, but I never thought I would have a career in the arts. My parents, while they were always really encouraging, I don’t think they thought I was going to end up in the arts either.
Sharon: Did they support you if you wanted, or were they more like “Be an engineer”?
Bella: Basically, yes. They were like, “You should do the thing that’s going to make you money,” because we came to this country and didn’t have much. I went to a public school. The college I went to is a city college. So, they really wanted me to do something that was going to make me a good living, but they also believed I should follow my heart and do what is going to make me happy.
Even when I went to college, I didn’t know what I was going to do. I was thinking, “Well, maybe psychology.” That was a popular thing at the time, but I took an art history course, and I was hooked. My bachelor’s was in arts administration. I knew that I wanted to remain in the arts, but I wanted to do something where I was able to approach the art world with a sense of practicality, with a sense of having some knowledge of business skills, marketing, finance, because I always knew I wasn’t going to be an artist. As I said, I’m not creative. So, I wanted to approach it from a place where I could support myself and support others.
Sharon: Arts administration, that sounds intriguing. That sounds like a great foundation for what you’re talking about.
Bella: Exactly, something practical. Then, of course, for my master’s degree, I decided that I wanted to go into the decorative arts, not into the fine arts. Again, thinking about what I could do to contribute to this thing I’m going to be embarking on studying. I just felt like the fine arts were saturated. There aren’t any work opportunities. I thought, “What am I going to contribute to this field that hasn’t already been done? There are so many other voices. Why do I need to do this? Why should I pursue this?”
I always loved the decorative arts and I thought, “You know what? This seems like more of a niche, and maybe I can do something that would be more worthwhile.” I was thinking about, “O.K., can I be a curator? Can I be a writer? Can I work in a gallery? Can I work in an auction house?” Always thinking practically about how I could make a living doing this thing I love, I ended up in this master’s program, which I absolutely loved. I chose it because I can work with objects. The two years that I spent there—we were at the Cooper Hewitt—were an incredible experience, but I never took a jewelry class.
As I said, jewelry found me, because when I finished my master’s degree, I was incredibly fortunate to find a job right away. I started working in a decorative arts gallery called Primavera Gallery. They had just moved to Chelsea. This was 2007, so Chelsea was really developing. Audrey and Haim, who owned the gallery, had an incredible collection. At that point, it had been in business for about 30 years, and they have an incredible collection not just of furniture and glass and ceramics and metalwork spanning the 20th century, but they also had an incredible collection of jewelry. Again, 20th century was the focus. They had really important signed pieces by many prominent European makers and designers. They also had great Georgian jewelry and Victorian jewelry because Audrey was always so passionate about jewelry. It was something she really loved. So, that was the first time I got to handle jewelry and start to appreciate it and look at it as an art form.
Sharon: That’s a great way to start out. Is Primavera still in business?
Bella: At this point, Audrey and Haim have retired. I think they’re probably still open by appointment. They still have a collection, but they’re no longer in Chelsea.
Sharon: I’ve never been, but I’ve always heard they were a fabulous gallery.
Bella: Yeah, it was a great place to work. They were one of the first to sell Art Deco. When they were starting out, a lot of the pieces were still coming out of the original homes, the families that purchased these pieces. They were collecting them in the 70s, when there was a huge revival of Art Deco. So, it was a great place to work.
Sharon: Wow! I’m always envious of people who got into the Cooper Hewitt in that program. I wish they had something out here like that. Tell us, were you hooked on jewelry from there?
Bella: Yes, absolutely, I became hooked on jewelry there. As I said, it was the first time I was able to handle it and start to appreciate it. I think Audrey’s stories about the pieces in their collection sparked an interest in me. I was always thinking about what else I could be doing. It’s funny, because when you’re in school, you’re so busy trying to keep up with the curriculum. Once you graduate, you almost feel at a loss, like, “I have all this free time on my hands.” I really wanted to start writing, and I came upon a piece in their collection that I absolutely fell in love with. It was a necklace by the jeweler Sah Oved, and I wanted to investigate who this woman was.
Sharon: I have to interrupt you—who was the piece by?
Bella: Sah Oved.
Sharon: Oh, Sah Oved, wow!
Bella: I had started keeping a blog because, as I said, this is like 2007, 2008. Blogs were quite popular. I started a blog so I could write and have something to present should I ever find myself ready to pitch an editor, because I really wanted to write.
I found this piece by Sah Oved in Audrey’s collection. I wanted to know more about it, and that was the first time I wanted to explore somebody’s jewelry story. Who was this woman? Why was this piece made? Why is it so different from anything I had seen? That really is what started it for me. I wrote this article. It was my first publication in a magazine, and I was hooked. I was really, really hooked and, as I said, I think jewelry found me.
Sharon: I’m curious because so much of Moshe’s work, you can’t tell the difference. How did you know this was Sah Oved versus Moshe?
Bella: Yeah, Sah was the jeweler. Moshe, his contribution to jewelry has been the animal rings that come on the auction scene every once in a while. Sah was really the jeweler. He was this eccentric businessman. He was a great supporter of the arts, but he didn’t make that much jewelry. She was his partner. She worked with him at the Cameo Corner, which was his shop. She did a lot of repairs for him; she did custom work, but she had been interested in jewelry prior to working for him. She had her own little studio in London. So, part of the challenge was to find out who this woman was, because not much had been written about her.
Sharon: There’s still not much about her.
Bella: There still isn’t. I’m hoping to change that, but yes, there still isn’t.
Sharon: I know you gave a talk last year to the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, which was fabulous because nobody ever talks about them, really.
Bella: No, they don’t.
Sharon: The last time I saw a piece by you, it was in an antiques magazine. You also teach. How did you start teaching? Tell us about that.
Bella: The teaching is something that is pretty recent. That’s been a product of the pandemic. What happened between leaving Primavera Gallery and finding my way to where I am today is that I also discovered contemporary studio jewelry, which is how you and I know each other through Art Jewelry Forum. I was always interested in finding work and artists whose work speaks to me and sharing their stories, whether it be through writing, through lecturing, through New York City Jewelry Week, which I know we’ll get to later on. That’s what I’ve always been interested in, sharing those stories.
I teach at two institutions. I lecture at the 92nd Street Y and at Christie’s. I love jewelry, so for me, it has been wonderful—especially during the pandemic, when everybody was doing everything virtually and we were glued to our computer screens—to not only my share my jewelry knowledge, but also to broaden my jewelry knowledge. I teach a wide variety of courses. For example, next week, I’m starting a class at the Y on costume jewelry. In the past, I’ve taught classes on women designers in the 20th century. I’ve done an overview of jewelry history in the 20th century. For me, it’s always been about sharing my knowledge, but also broadening my own knowledge. There’s so much information out there, and to be able to take that information, make it digestible for my students and to hopefully inspire them and pass on my love of jewelry to them has been really special, especially during the pandemic, when it’s been hard to be out and do things that we love.
Sharon: I’m really looking forward to this class on costume jewelry because nobody talks about costume except Bakelite maybe once in a while. Tell us about it. How did you decide to do that?
Bella: Absolutely. I’ve taught this class covering 100 years of jewelry and this other class on women designers, and when I put my courses together, I want to make sure I present the full scope of jewelry, all different types of jewelry. As I mentioned, while I worked for Audrey and Haim and worked with these important signed pieces and fine jewelry, in my personal life, I’m much more interested in contemporary studio jewelry and jewelry made from non-precious materials. So, when I teach these classes, I make sure I include all different types of jewelry because, to be quite honest with you, I think jewelry, regardless of what it’s made from, it all informs. It informs each other, whether it’s fine or studio or costume. So, when I put these classes together, I always want to make sure I cover a broad span of different types of jewelry.
When I was working on the women designers course, I realized that a lot of women designers started out in costume jewelry, much more so than in fine jewelry, which has traditionally been a very male-dominated industry. But in costume jewelry there were a lot of female designers, and that sparked my interest. I’ve also been interested in fashion jewelry and fashion designers like Coco Chanel or Elsa Schiaparelli, who used costume jewelry historically to build their own image or to embellish their own collections. I was interested in that relationship as well, and that’s how that class came about. You’re right; not much has been done on costume jewelry. There are some publications, of course, but I haven’t seen any classes. It was of interest to me, so I assumed it would be of interest to others.
Sharon: It’s unusual, because you can find other courses on jewelry history which are great—it’s refreshing, I guess is the word.
Bella: Good. I hope everyone signs up. The class starts next Thursday, February 24 at the 92nd Street Y. It’s a virtual class. It’s a six-week course. It’s a little bit longer than my usual courses because the other thing I’ve enjoyed is having guest speakers join me in my classes. With everything being virtual, that’s something that’s easy. So, I have some fun speakers lined up as well. I’m really excited for it.
Sharon: I’m sure it’s going to be great. Do you think you’ll continue at the Y with jewelry classes?
Bella: Yeah, I think so. This is now my third course for them, and it’s great. I love it. I enjoy meeting all the different individuals who sign up for the courses. I feel like we end up becoming friends. They’re always so eager to reach out, and the class is really wonderful. They’re virtual, so we can reach more students.
Then, of course, at Christie’s, we’ve also been able to do classes. I do virtual classes at Christie’s, but I have recently started doing an in-person course called Jewelry Jaunts. It’s really nice to be among other jewelry lovers, to be out looking at jewelry, trying it on and picking it up, investigating.
Sharon: That sounds great. What are you teaching virtually at Christie’s? I didn’t know you were teaching virtually for them.
Bella: At Christie’s, I teach two courses. One of them is starting in March, and that’s on the history of studio jewelry. Then the second course I’ve taught there is on artist jewelers. All these classes inform each other, as jewelry does. I look at a lot of the classes I teach as a part one and a part two, so, if you’re interested in studio jewelry, there’s a little bit of an overlap. That’s why I wanted to add this other class focusing on artist jewelers. The virtual studio course is going to run in March, and the class I’m teaching now, as I said, is in person. It’s fun. We’ll hopefully do that in the spring again.
Sharon: Wow! You’re busy.
Bella: I’m busy, but at the same time, it’s been such a challenging couple of years, so it’s a nice way to distract yourself.
Sharon: It sounds like they’re things you might not have been able to do or focus on. From my perspective, you cover everything from antique to art jewelry, but you’re saying you like contemporary jewelry. I call it art jewelry. That’s what you like, but you teach everything it seems. Is that what you’re saying?
Bella: I love jewelry. When it comes to the things I collect or the things I covet, most of that is contemporary studio jewelry or art jewelry, absolutely, but I love all jewelry.
Sharon: I like that word, covet.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Daniela Mascetti
Daniela Mascetti is one of the jewelry world's most experienced scholars specializing in the history of jewelry. Daniela joined Sotheby’s in 1980, and soon after opened the firm’s Jewelry department in Milan. After a distinguished career of 40 years at Sotheby’s, she was appointed Chairman Jewelry, Europe, a position she retained until 2020.
As one of the most renowned and experienced of scholars specializing in the history of jewelry, highlights from Daniela's distinguished career include research for the sales of historic collections such as the Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor (1987) and The Princely Collections of Thurn und Taxis (1992), Elton John, Maria Callas and Gina Lollobrigida. Most recently she was responsible for the academic research for the record-breaking sale of Royal Jewels from the Bourbon-Parma Family which included treasures from Queen Marie Antoinette. Daniela also provided research for the auction Castellani & Giuliano: The Judith H. Siegel Collection held in New York, a landmark event which reinvigorated the interest in and demand for revivalist jewels.
Daniela regularly lectures on jewelry and was responsible for Sotheby’s Institute of Art Jewelry Courses. She is co-author with David Bennett of the best-selling reference book Understanding Jewelry and Celebrating Jewelry, published in 2012. She has also co-written The Necklace from Antiquity to the Present, Earrings from Antiquity to the Present and a Bulgari monograph with Amanda Triossi. In 2021, Daniela and David launched a unique website showcasing their unparalleled experience and knowledge in the field of jewelry.
Daniela Mascetti grew up between Lake Maggiore, Lake Varese and Lake Como and graduated in Archaeology from the University of Milan, where she developed the analytical skills required for the dating, researching and valuing of historical jewels.
Additional Resources:
Website:
https://www.understanding-jewellery.com/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/understandingjewellery/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/UnderstandingJewellery
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/UJewellery_
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/19192787
Transcript:
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association of the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday, May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I’ve attended this conference for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Daniela Mascetti, a well-known name in the high-end world of jewelry and auctions. She spent four decades at Sotheby’s and holds the position of Senior Specialist Worldwide. She’s co-author with David Bennett of the bible for jewelry professionals, “Understanding Jewelry.” If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Welcome back.
Flipping through the book—I tend to look at books starting from the back forward. There was a comment about jewelry being seen as art as well as jewelry more recently. I wish I’d written down the comment, but it intrigued me because it was a comment about art jewelry. I tend to think of that as something with no gems, but more with plastic or wood or whatever.
Daniela: What I think we wanted to say is that when we started in the jewelry field—I started in 1980, David in 1974 or 1975, I think—jewels were just seen as extremely valuable items. They were available to display gems. I remember vividly, in the early 1980s, beautiful Art Déco cloche brooches set with diamonds being bought by members of the trade that used to deal in diamonds. These beautiful Art Déco pieces were going to be dismantled just for their intrinsic content. That was 1985, 1986, 1989.
Then gradually the general public started to look at jewels as a form of art. As you buy a painting, as you buy a sculpture, as you buy a lovely piece of ceramic, the public started to look at buying jewels for their artistic value rather than just for the intrinsic value. When I started, the composition of the showroom at Sotheby’s—if I was a Christie’s, I would have had exactly the same situation—was entirely made up of members of the trade. Perhaps one private buyer, two at most. Nowadays—or at least for a moment when I stopped working back in 2019—it was a 50/50 split, so a great amount of private people buying for the pleasure of acquiring an item that was unique for its sole artistic value.
Sharon: What do you think changed that people started seeing it as an artistic item?
Daniela: One thing that contributed was “Understanding Jewelry,” the bible as you say, which brought the history of jewelry design to a large public. They started to read the story, the history behind each piece of jewelry, and then a plethora of books started to be written on the subject of jewels. I remember when I started, there were probably 10 books dedicated to the history of jewelry design—forget about gemology and all that. Now, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of books on the subject. All these have contributed to persuade or open the public to the concept of jewels as a collectable field.
Of course, there is a very strong connection between the artistic weight and the intrinsic weight. It’s always a combination of the two, but it is interesting to see how the public has started to appreciate jewels for their artistic value independently from the intrinsic value. There will always be the clients who go for the 16 carats, the flawless diamond as a status symbol, as a showoff, but more and more, the public is opening up to smaller items that can tell a story.
Sharon: Tell us about the business of UnderstandingJewelry.com, because there’s so much. I know you’re just starting out, but it’s so much.
Daniela: It just started up. If you’ve read the book, “Understanding Jewelry,” the book keeps on growing. I thought we could have subscriptions so you can subscribe and get the book continuously bringing information to you, but then we thought, once we started a website, why don’t we try to do more with it? Apart from the academic part of the website that is dedicated the book, we have several other offers. We have courses online done through Zoom. Call them courses, call them seminars. They are groups of lectures on different subjects. For the time being, we’ve done one on Art Déco that I think was well-received.
We are planning many more, but we’re also concentrating on proper seminars on the field. The first will be in France, starting in Burgundy and ending up in Paris. It will be a combination of lectures and experiences. It will be lectures on jewels, experiences in Burgundy. There will be culinary experiences in restaurants and wine tastings, visiting wonderful chateaux, visiting historic places such as the Cluny Abbey. Then in Paris, we’ll be visiting museums and some of the grand maisons of jewelry: Cartier, Boucheron, Chaumet, Melediaux. That is on the academic side. We also offer valuation and advisory services. Many of the clients from Sotheby’s came back to us for advice to keep augmenting their collections or slim down the collection.
What else do we do? We are just about to launch what will be called Hidden Gems, a part of the website where we present jewels we have found in locations such as London, Geneva and New York to start with, and that perhaps the public at large would not find because they are not sitting in the windows of jewelers of the mainstream. They are little gems in the sense of jewelry, hidden treasurers in the sense that they are the perfect example of the kind of jewelry that’s hard to find. It could be a perfect Art Déco double-clip brooch. It could be the perfect 19th century pendant sitting with a member of the trade that does not have a shop front. It will always be something we choose ourselves. We will not be persuaded to put something on our website if we do not believe it is worth being on the website. What I can say is that David and I are completely independent. We put together the website entirely by ourselves. We have no financial backing. So, we are in a very privileged position and we have the final say.
Sharon: That’s nice to hear. It’s a very nice website. I presumed that Sotheby’s had given you some backing. I think it’s a beautiful website. I’m sorry; go ahead.
Daniela: We will agree to endorse the best jewelry, and we can do it now in our position. We’ve clocked together about 95 years of experience in the jewelry field. We are not backed by anybody, so we can really say, “We think this is good.” Of course, it would be personal, and we can’t really stop that.
Sharon: The Hidden Gems that you post, will they be for sale?
Daniela: They will be for sale, yes. Our function would be to put together the seller and the potential buyer, and then the bill will be done between the two of them. We will not be interfering with the estimate, the valuation, whatever. Of course, if we are asked, “Do you think this jewel is really worth the money?” within reasonable figures, we would say yes. If we do realize the wrong figure is being asked for that type of jewel, then that type of jewel will not be on our website anyway, because we will not set the price. The price will not be on our website, but we will know more or less what the asking figure is and whether we think it is reasonable. The end of the story is if you want something that is a very special example of something, you have to be prepared to pay the right amount of money.
Sharon: You mentioned something before; I’m always intrigued by the word collection and what a collector is, and the fact that people come to you and you advise them on building their collections. How do you advise on a collection? Do people come and say, “I have these three pieces. I have a ruby, an emerald and a sapphire ring. What do I need now?”
Daniela: It’s very much a matter of listening to your client because they’re all different. The beauty is that all the collections are different. There are no two collections that are exactly the same, because each collection is the reflection of the person who puts it together. Even more so if the collector is a woman because she would have been wearing those jewels. If the collection is really there, our function is to say, “Yes, perhaps you could sell that item that is not such a great example and buy something better in that field.” Maybe the collection is almost complete, and we can say, “Look, these are the little gaps we would fill if we were in your position.” Sometimes collections are always growing. We have collectors that want to slim down the collection to always keep it at its peak, and we have collectors that want to leave their collection as it is because it shows all the steps from the very beginning and the mistakes to give a better example later on. Again, there is no rule. You have to listen, figure out what the client is aiming at and then try to do your best and give the best advice.
Sharon: If somebody comes to you to advise them on their collection and there are gaps, do you help them source?
Daniela: Yes, we would try to help them source. We are in very good relationships with, I would say, every member of the trade, having been a dealer with them for so many years through the auction world. We are in good relationships with the auction houses, having had a fantastic career with them. So, we would know where to go to source the item. Of course, it would perhaps be easier to source something contemporary because we would know where to go. It would be harder to source for somebody who says, “Well, I’m looking for an Art Nouveau brooch in the design of a teacup, but I don’t want Lalique. I’m aiming for something different.” That would be a bit more challenging, but perhaps that’s where we find them something even more exciting.
Sharon: Do you only work with very wealthy people? The kinds of jewels you’re mentioning are not the kind of jewels I’m going to be buying. Do you work with people at different levels?
Daniela: The idea is that we’re open to all levels. What we’re really looking to do is be approachable. Of course, I can’t give advice on gathering a collection of tiny little silver rings because that wouldn’t be economically viable, but we are not talking about millions. On our website, on Hidden Gems, there will be jewels valued at $8,000, $9,000, $10,000, so we’re not looking only at the top end. We’re looking at the top end of quality; that for sure we are aiming at.
Sharon: This is the question that doesn’t have an answer, but I’m always interested in different opinions. What is a collection to you? If you’re saying somebody has a collection, does that mean four pieces that tell a story, or is it just 20 pieces? What’s a collection?
Daniela: That is a very good question and a very difficult one to answer, because everybody has a different idea of a collection. I think I hinted at this subject. To somebody, even to me, a perfect collection of gemstones could include a fantastic Burmese ruby, a Colombian Muzo emerald, a superb Kashmir sapphire. I would like to have a Burma sapphire and a Ceylon sapphire of the best quality, and then why not a diamond. Perhaps if they want to go into colored diamonds, we would have to stretch the prices, but a collection could be made of 10 beautiful gemstones. It doesn’t need to be hundreds of items. We sold a few collections at auction that were made up of 20 items. It could be five good ruby sapphires, a diamond and a beautiful pearl, and you have a perfect collection of the most appreciated gems.
Then you can have collections of different periods. I’ve had a chance to handle beautiful period collections. There are even more collections focused on Lalique, and then collections such as the Bourbon-Parma than spans 250 years of production.
Sharon: Don’t forget the tiny silver rings. I was going to say don’t forget the collection of tiny silver rings, too.
Daniela: Absolutely.
Sharon: I have a million more questions. I don’t want to keep you here all day, but let me ask you, when in your career did you decide to become a gemologist? I don’t know what organizations you belong to.
Daniela: That was not a decision of mine. It was imposed by Sotheby’s. By the time I started, gemology had become an essential part of our business. I remember all my mentors at Sotheby’s, all my bosses, and none of them had a gemological degree. But the next generation, David and I, we had to do gemology. I remember one day at Sotheby’s in Milan, I was told, “Daniela, you have to complete a gemology degree,” which I must admit I did not enjoy at all because at school, I was really bad at sciences, physics and mathematics.
Studying gemology for me has been a toil. It has been hard to go through and get my certificate, but it was a necessity. If you look at jewels, you have to be able to say, “Yes, I know what to do. I brought my loupe, and this is what I’m looking for.”
Sharon: You were in the auction business for 40 years. What kept you attractted and kept you going? What is the excitement of the auction world and jewelry? What was it? What excited you?
Daniela: Why I stayed in jewels in the auction world is simply because only by working within the auction house, that sort of frame, do you have the chance to see the amount of objects I have seen. What is seen with the auction is just a fraction of what we see throughout the year, especially in London. It was a fantastic place because we had what we called counter service. People could just come off Bond Street with their little trinkets, knock on the door, and we had to go out to the counter and give evaluations. That was constant throughout the day.
Now, if you have a look at the amount of jewels if you work in a museum, even in the jewel-rich museums of the world such as the Victoria & Albert Museum in London, you have the collection; you have that number. If you work for a dealer, you have your stock. But we had access to the jewels of different clients, so many different collections. We may have never sold it, or we valued it and we never got it for sale because somebody else got it for sale, or we valued it because they simply wanted to know the weight of the collection.
I can’t think of how many thousands of jewels I’ve seen in my life, the sheer number and the variety. You went from little jewels made of woven hair to 100-carat flawless diamonds, jewels of the Duchess of Windsor to the jewels of Gina Lollobrigida to the jewels of Maria Callas to the tiny, little diamond ring that had been sewn inside a teddy bear at the beginning of World War II and was rediscovered 40 years later by the granddaughter of the deceased person by breaking into this very old teddy. It’s the sheer amount of variety and the variety of human stories behind these jewels.
Sharon: It must have been very, very attractive, I could understand how that’s very compelling. Daniela, thank you so much for spending time with us today, telling us only part of your story. You’ve lived a really fantastic life, so thank you for being with us today.
Daniela: Sharon, thank you so much for having me. All the best to you and your team.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Daniela Mascetti
Daniela Mascetti is one of the jewelry world's most experienced scholars specializing in the history of jewelry. Daniela joined Sotheby’s in 1980, and soon after opened the firm’s Jewelry department in Milan. After a distinguished career of 40 years at Sotheby’s, she was appointed Chairman Jewelry, Europe, a position she retained until 2020.
As one of the most renowned and experienced of scholars specializing in the history of jewelry, highlights from Daniela's distinguished career include research for the sales of historic collections such as the Jewels of the Duchess of Windsor (1987) and The Princely Collections of Thurn und Taxis (1992), Elton John, Maria Callas and Gina Lollobrigida. Most recently she was responsible for the academic research for the record-breaking sale of Royal Jewels from the Bourbon-Parma Family which included treasures from Queen Marie Antoinette. Daniela also provided research for the auction Castellani & Giuliano: The Judith H. Siegel Collection held in New York, a landmark event which reinvigorated the interest in and demand for revivalist jewels.
Daniela regularly lectures on jewelry and was responsible for Sotheby’s Institute of Art Jewelry Courses. She is co-author with David Bennett of the best-selling reference book Understanding Jewelry and Celebrating Jewelry, published in 2012. She has also co-written The Necklace from Antiquity to the Present, Earrings from Antiquity to the Present and a Bulgari monograph with Amanda Triossi. In 2021, Daniela and David launched a unique website showcasing their unparalleled experience and knowledge in the field of jewelry.
Daniela Mascetti grew up between Lake Maggiore, Lake Varese and Lake Como and graduated in Archaeology from the University of Milan, where she developed the analytical skills required for the dating, researching and valuing of historical jewels.
Additional Resources:
Website:
https://www.understanding-jewellery.com/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/understandingjewellery/
Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/UnderstandingJewellery
Twitter:
https://twitter.com/UJewellery_
LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/company/19192787
Transcript:
Almost any jewelry lover would be jealous of Daniela Mascetti. Over her 40-year career with Sotheby’s, Daniela got to handle some of history’s most beautiful and iconic jewelry, including the Bourbon-Parma collection and the Duchess of Windsor collection. She is also the co-author of the jewelry industry bible “Understanding Jewelry,” which she has updated with a new website and corresponding business with her co-author, David Bennett. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why she considers herself an archaeologist of the jewelry world; the biggest successes and lessons learned during her career; and which jewels she’ll never forget. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Here at the Jewelry Journey, we’re about all things jewelry. With that in mind, I wanted to let you know about an upcoming jewelry conference, which is “Beyond Boundaries: Jewelry of the Americas.” It’s sponsored by the Association of the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts or, as it’s otherwise known, ASJRA. The conference takes place virtually on Saturday and Sunday, May 21 and May 22, which is around the corner. For details on the program and the speakers, go to www.jewelryconference.com. Non-members are welcome. I have to say that I’ve attended this conference for several years, and it’s one of my favorite conferences. It’s a real treat to be able to sit in your pajamas or in comfies in your living room and listen to some extraordinary speakers. So, check it out. Register at www.jewelryconference.com. See you there.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Daniela Mascetti, a well-known name in the high-end world of jewelry and auctions. She spent four decades at Sotheby’s and holds the position of Senior Specialist Worldwide. She’s co-author with David Bennett of the bible for jewelry professionals, “Understanding Jewelry.” Daniela and David also co-authored the recently published “Understanding Jewelry: The 20th Century.” With this publication, they’ve also launched a parallel business, Understanding Jewelry, which includes something for everyone in the jewelry profession, from novices to the most experienced practitioners. We’ll hear more about Daniela’s jewelry journey today, and I have to say it’s an extraordinary journey. Daniela, welcome to the program.
Daniela: Thank you for having me, Sharon. It’s very nice to see you today.
Sharon: Daniela, tell us about your jewelry journey. It was by happenstance that you got into jewelry, it seems.
Daniela: I’m afraid I’m not giving you the pleasure of hearing that I always played with jewels when I was a girl. I used to collect pebbles on the beach. I was very much a tomboy, and it was certainly not on my horizon in my youth. Actually, I studied classics. Then I got into archaeology, and I specialized in Greek and Roman archaeology at university. So, I sat on my career in a very academic way, and I was expecting to go on working in museums and once or twice a year have my dig in the southern part of Italy, which is so rich with treasures. Everything went all right until I realized that working in archaeology, you have to be able to cope with bureaucracy, and I was not very good at that.
I was then in my part-time job at university, a part-time job in a museum in Milan, thinking of something new and more exciting. I couldn’t find anything, but I decided to take a sabbatical and improve my knowledge of the English language. I knew English well enough to be able to follow an art course in English rather than take a proper language course. Then I found out that, among the many courses, there was one run by one of the bigger English auction houses, Sotheby’s in London, and I applied. I was accepted and I joined, and I had a most extraordinary, wonderful year of my life. I realized that art was something that had been created to be bought, sold and enjoyed, whereas the art I was dealing with in the museum was something so important you couldn’t touch it. You couldn’t really enjoy yourself as an individual. So, I spent a most beautiful year around silver, carpets, furniture, sculpture.
When I ended the course, I was ready to go back to the archaeological world, and then something happened out of the blue. I was asked to attend an interview at Sotheby’s. I went to the interview. I was told—I’m Italian by birth and at the time I was living in Italy—that someone was hiring people for that expanding Italian adventure. I went to that interview with very little hope, but five minutes after chit chatting, I was told, “You have the job.” I said, “Fantastic! I’m so excited. Where and when?” And they said, “Well, we want you to start in about two months’ time in Milan, and you have to start in the jewelry department.” My heart stopped beating and I said, “But do you realize I know nothing about jewels?” The person who was interviewing me said, “Well, do you think that’s a problem? Can’t you possibly learn?” And that was the stimulus. That encouraged me not only to learn about jewels today, but the history of jewelry and jewelry design. That allowed me, over the years, to put together my two passions, history and archaeology, and apply them to jewels. In a way, I like to be considered an archaeologist of the jewelry world.
Sharon: Was that your career trajectory? Did you then decide, “O.K., I’m going to stay with this”?
Daniela: Yes, it was a great challenge. This was always the backup to my archaeological background. I could always come back to that if this didn’t work, but the year I spent at Sotheby’s of London learning about the mechanism of the auction house really excited me. I said, “I think I can fit into this world much more than the completely academic world of a museum.” It was a perfect way of balancing academics and hands-on work with the object.
Sharon: So, you started your jewelry career as a paid professional in Milan with Sotheby’s.
Daniela: Absolutely. I developed a very important art, at least the art of listening to your clients. At the beginning, I couldn’t give any advice whatsoever, so I would say, “This is a very interesting piece and I really like it. Can I take a few Polaroids to send to the specialist in London to ask for advice? How did you get it? Was it in the family for a long time?” I tried to encourage the owner of the jewel to tell me information that I was then repackaging for the owner as an answer. “Oh yes, of course, it is Art Déco style,” and all that. So, at the beginning I was trying to work as a sort of mirror, but it taught me one important thing: never rush to your judgment and your comment. Always listen to other people, because you may be the most important, the most skilled specialist in your field, but it is always that little thing you do not know, and you can learn from somebody unique.
Do you want to know one of my major mistakes? I still blush when I think of it, but it’s interesting. I was handling a piece of Lalique jewelry. I was a few years into my career in at Sotheby’s. I looked at this lovely brooch and told the client, “It is really, really lovely, in pure omnibus style. It couldn’t be more Lalique. You have the enamels. You have the lovely chasing. It’s a perfect example, but it isn’t signed.” I was looking at it very carefully, examining the back of the piece of jewelry, where in 99.9% of the cases, you have the signature of the artist. Then the client—a very nice, elegant, mature lady—told me, “My dear girl, perhaps if you turn the brooch over and you look at the front, you can see that the name of Lalique is stamped on the front.” I felt bad, embarrassed. In all careers, you have your mistakes, and you learn from your mistakes. That is one of my mantras: listen and learn from mistakes. Once you’ve made that mistake, you never repeat it. It’s much better to make a mistake and learn from it than always stay in between the answers, just to not say something that is wrong.
Sharon: You have had so many successes that it’s interesting to hear about one mistake. That applies to anything in terms of listening to the client. Listening applies to any field. One thing that kept occurring to me as I was reading about you and talking to you: do you think you would have been as intrigued or interested if Sotheby’s had said, “We need somebody as a carpet specialist”?
Daniela: Perhaps not in the carpet section, but I could have been in the old masters department or the antiquities department, because in those days, even in London, Greek and Roman and Egyptian antiquities were being sold. In fact, when I was told I got the job, the first thing I thought was “They want to put me in the antiquities department.” The other departments I would have fit in, but not carpets, perhaps not silver, but certainly I would have in ceramics, old masters and antiquities.
Sharon: Did you ever think about going back to archaeology after you started your career in the auction world?
Daniela: I must say I was ready to leave it. There’s a still passion. I still read about it. I still have very good friends that kept on in that field. We exchange ideas, but no, I thoroughly embraced jewels and I love it now to the very core.
Sharon: You’ve handled some extraordinary jewels. What would be the highlight? I was reading about everything you’ve done. What would be the highlight of the jewels you’ve looked at or been in charge of auctioning off?
Daniela: I am an object person, a jewelry person rather than a gem person. I’m not saying I do not like a fantastic ruby, but my instinct goes to an object that has been crafted and that perhaps has a history. At the beginning of my career—I started at Sotheby’s in 1980—we had the fabulous sale of the jewels of the Duchess of Windsor in 1987. Many years later in 2018, towards the end of my 40 years at Sotheby’s, we had another fantastic collection, the Bourbon-Parma jewels. Within these two collections are some of the jewels I will always remember.
Within the Duchess of Windsor collection, there are two items for two different reasons. One because of its beauty and the way it was absolutely perfectly crafted: the Panther Bracelet. So subtle, so realistic, so sensual. Once you had it on your wrist, you wanted to keep on stroking the panther as if it were your little kitten. You can feel it with your fingers, the bones under this wonderful pelt of sapphires and diamonds. One of the best, not only in my opinion, of all the great cats created by Cartier.
The other jewel that I think is an icon of the 20th century is the Flamingo Brooch by, again, Cartier and created in 1940. It’s one of the jewels that, in my opinion, is a mark of the 20th century because, if you look at it, you can’t really date it. It could be 1920s. It could be 1930s. It could be 1960s. It could have been made yesterday. It is so much of the 20th century all together. When I’m asked what the most iconic jewel of the 20th century is, I say definitely the Duchess of Windsor Flamingo Brooch.
When you come to the Bourbon-Parma collection, which we sold in 2018, obviously there was a jewel that was so poignant and so emotional, and that was the pearl that belonged to Queen Marie Antoinette of France. It was extraordinary, the handling of a jewel that had been created for a queen that became so famous for all the wrong reasons. That she lost her head as a consequence remained with the family for the next 200-odd years. Handling it was a really wow factor, but even more so, it was an amazing piece of jewelry that we valued at $1 to $2 million. It sold for, I think, $36 million. It was not the pearl for $36 million; it was the Marie Antoinette factor.
The other one in the collection that really gave me frisson was a ring that had the monogram of Marie Antoinette in a glazed compartment set on top of a lock of hair of Marie Antoinette. When it was on your finger, you thought, “Wow, I’m wearing not only something that belonged to Marie Antoinette, but also a little bit of Maria Antoinette herself.” So, it was very, very emotional.
Sharon: Wow! I can see how that would be incredible from a jewelry perspective, from a history perspective. So, you opened the jewelry department for Sotheby’s in Milan. Is that where you met David Bennett?
Daniela: Yes, that’s how we met. My superiors at Sotheby’s had the grace to believe in me, and they also realized I was very junior to the job, and I needed a lot of support. David was, in those days, one of the specialists in London and young enough to be told, “Come on, get on a plane and go down and help Daniela put together this scene.” That’s how we met. He knew a bit more than I did. He was about four or five years into the career by then. To my eyes, he was amazingly knowledgeable. That’s how we met, and from the very beginning, I think we clicked. We discovered we had a lot of common interests and we were on the same wave length. We look at jewels in the same way. It was late 1980 when I met him.
Sharon: How did the book come about? You both decided you wanted a book?
Daniela: That is an interesting story. I think you may have to ask the question of David to get his part of the story. I came in at the second stage. David asked me, “Daniela, I was given the task of writing this book last year. I haven’t done anything. Can you please help me?” I’m sure he will tell you how he got into that situation if you ask him. I don’t want to say the wrong thing. But, of course, I said, “Yes, I will be delighted,” because it was a great chance for me to get into a publication. I thought I could do it because I had the background, the organized mind to do the research, to put all my docs in line together and then cook the cake, so to speak. Over the next year, I collected all the information. I sourced all the images, and then writing the book was very much four-hands, two-brain work, mine and David’s.
Sharon: Did you anticipate that it would be such a foundational work?
Daniela: Not at all. It was really great to see the book selling. At the beginning, I could not believe it, but there was a market for it. As the years passed and the editions kept being published throughout the whole world, I thought perhaps we had done something that really hit the right mark. I think the success, if you want to call it that, of the book was that it was informative, but not written in an academic way. It was accessible to everybody. It was accessible to somebody who knew about jewels, so we were not patronizing, but at the same time, we gave information that perhaps not everybody who was working in the field had. It really could be bought as a present for the girlfriend who loves jewels, but it was a book that was bought by most members of the trade. In fact, it was divided into decades and groups of 20 years, so it was so well-structured from the time point of view.
Sharon: It’s such a bible of the jewelry profession. I think I told you that when I first got into jewelry, a dealer said to me, “If you have one book, this is the book, ‘Understanding Jewelry.’” How did the updates come about? Did editors come to you and say, “There’s new information,” or did you to go the publisher? How did that work?
Daniela: It was me going to the publisher. The publisher was happy to keep on reprinting the book because the book was selling. The first edition came out in 1989 and covered from 1780 and basically went up to the 60s and 70s. It was too early, in 1989, to write anything about the 80s. We didn’t have a clue. We were living in the 80s, so it was impossible to judge. It was back in 2003 when we had a proper revamp of the book with the third edition. We brought it to the year 2000.
We considered if we should do another version and stretch it to 2010, 2020. I said, “No, we will be in the same position we were in 1989. It’s very difficult to judge what’s happening at the moment. You really need everything to sediment and to look at it from a distance. So, we thought, “Why don’t we do something more up to date?” We considered going digital, doing a digital version of the book, but we thought perhaps we could do a bit more than that. So, we have a platform, UnderstandingJewelery.com. We have the whole book, “Understanding Jewelry,” but the book is continuously growing with the addition of images and quite extensive captions in all the different chapters. So, you not only have the book that you can buy in the shop, but you have a book that keeps on growing. We are making a point to keep this process a steady progress and giving it a chance for the book to become an encyclopedia if we want, the bible of jewels.
Sharon: I’ve only been able to look so far on the website. Are you talking about “Understanding Jewelry: The 20th Century”? That’s your most recent book, right?
Daniela: That is recent, yes. That came from the fact that we realized we are now quite well into the 21st century and we can look, even in the last two decades of the 20th century, with a different eye, with a more critical eye. We decided to split the 19th century from the 20th century, and we decided to unpack one subject at a time. The difference between the part dedicated to the 20th century, which is in Understanding Jewelry, the original version, is that this looks more to the social history, the fashion history, the political history and the economic history that was the background to jewelry production throughout the 20th century. It will not present the development of brooches from 1900 to 1960, but we still give a very good example for each decade of the most iconic jewels of the period.
Sharon: I love the way it’s divided and goes decade by decade. It may start at 1900 or the 1890s, but you’re very clear on what the period is. It’s very clearly written.
Daniela: Thank you. We tried our best. It’s nice to hear that we have reached the aim we were trying to achieve.
Sharon: This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Whitney Abrams
Whitney Abrams’ high-karat gold creations are a reflection of her love of the Renaissance aesthetic and her admiration for the technical abilities of the Ancients. Inspired by the rich tones of high-karat gold and intense hues of unique, precious stones, her hand-made pieces involve the wearer in an experience of regal beauty.
Her interest in intaglios and cameos has led her to develop relationships with several German carvers who provide her clients with custom carvings that connect them with Abrams’ creations on an unparalleled level.
Whitney has studied goldsmithing and exhibited her jewelry throughout the United States and Europe. Her work is included in a number of publications on the subject of jewelry as an art form and jewelry making techniques.
Whitney Abrams presents her collections privately to collectors throughout the country, as well as online.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Since joining the Jewelry Journey Podcast as a guest in February 2020, maker and jewelry gallery owner Whitney Abrams’ life and business have changed dramatically: she moved away from her busy Chicago studio to vacation hotspot Lake Geneva, WI, and has spent the last year finding the inspiration that comes with a more relaxed lifestyle. Although it’s been challenging to provide customers with the luxury experience she’s known for in a pandemic, Whitney has discovered that the relationships she fostered with her customers can withstand the distance. She joined another episode of the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what life is like in Lake Geneva; how she keeps in touch with longstanding clients; and how social media has helped her business grow. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Whitney Abrams, owner and founder of Whitney Abrams Jewelry, a private jewelry studio specializing in high-karat jewelry. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Welcome back.
When people tell you they want something redone from old pieces, or if somebody dumps something on your desk and says, “O.K., here’s my grandmother’s ring,” do you see something visual immediately, or do you have to play with it? How does that work for you?
Whitney: Sometimes I do and sometimes I absolutely don’t. When I had my gallery, I was not in a place where people brought repairs. I didn’t change watch batteries or things like that. It was a jewelry gallery. I did have someone dump their teeth out on my jewelry counter one day, and I thought, “Well, this is a no. I’m not doing this.” I learned very early that if I didn’t have a connection with visualizing something or seeing something to make, or if I didn’t have a connection with the customer, that it was better for me to refer them to someone who could accomplish what they wanted to accomplish. Step one was setting a boundary and saying, “I don’t want to take this on because it never turns it out well.” I would much rather be spending time connecting with a piece, creating something meaningful for somebody.
Because I did that, I focused on creating a relationship with many of my clients. Even if it was an art piece I had already made that was in the case, if they came in and connected to it, that’s an introduction to creating a new relationship with that person, because they see something in you they relate to. When they would bring something in, I would design things and say, “What do you think of this?” I would do some drawings. If it was a fit, we would go with it, and sometimes it wasn’t.
Very rarely was it absolutely not how I wanted it to turn out, but it was a bit of a process. Sometimes it came very naturally, and sometimes when it really didn’t, I would say, “You know what? I think you need more of a bench jeweler,” or “You’re welcome to take these drawings and have somebody do whatever you want with them.” People can’t visualize the way they think they can, and then the end product is not going to be what they anticipated, which is the worst scenario you can be in doing anything custom.
It was always a thrill to have someone open up the box and say, “Oh, this is just what I wanted.” They have to take your life experience into it. If you know that putting something on a round chain is going to make it roll over when someone’s wearing it, I would advise them to put that on a flat chain. “No, I want a round chain.” “O.K., well, you’ll be back.” She said, “You said not a round chain, and I’m back. Put it on the flat chain.” That ended up being a seven or eight-year-long relationship at this point now. It could have gone the other way, but it didn’t. Sometimes I do say no to things.
Coming back around to Instagram, people have such a wide-open view of everybody’s jewelry that’s out there. You used to have to buy a magazine and look through it and see this designer or that designer, and only if they were lucky enough to get an editorial or pay for an ad were they in magazine. Now, it’s at everybody’s whim. They can scroll through and see designers they’ve never seen before.
I just had somebody say the other day, “I like these stones from my grandmother, but I like this girl’s jewelry.” She’s bought jewelry from me before and I’ve done custom things for her. I said, “That looks wonderful. If you like her jewelry, you need to contact her. I know she does custom. If you would like your piece to turn out looking like one of her pieces, then you need to contact her. I think that would be great. The next time you want something that’s more like what I do, please come back to me.” Then she said, “No, I changed my mind. I want it to look similar to my engagement ring.” I think the exposure people have to other artists is incredible and wonderful, but it brings a whole bunch of different design ideas into their minds that they never knew were possible. I don’t mind at all referring people to other people because in the end, you want that person to be happy.
Sharon: Do you find, because there are so many design ideas, that people come in and it’s a mishmash? “Today I want it to look like this designer’s jewelry, and tomorrow who knows."
Whitney: I think sometimes people have homed in more than they think they have. If they come to me and say, “I kind of like this,” I’ll say, “Well, that’s not necessarily what I do, but let me show you some pieces I’ve done in the past.” I have hundreds and hundreds of images, probably thousands; I have never really thought about it. But I dig back and send them images of pieces I have made, and then they say, “Oh yeah, that’s great. I like that. I can see that.” Either they connect with it or they don’t; that’s fine too.
I’m definitely older in the business. When I started making jewelry, you had to have someone take professional slides and you had to get them printed. There was none of this instantaneous, “Oh, I have a phone with a camera, and I can send you a picture halfway around the world in two seconds.” Now that that’s available, it’s absolutely instrumental to my business. I think it has opened the doors for people to have more dreams about their pieces than they ever could before. Unless you had direct exposure to the people, you didn’t have the ability to see what the possibilities were.
Sharon: I know in the past when we’ve talked building a luxury experience, you had a private log. How do you keep that going in what you’re doing now?
Whitney: I don’t have the same personal interaction. It’s been a year since I moved. I’ve only met with a few people in person; I’m going to say less than 10 that I can think of off the top of my head. That’s definitely something I’m working on, and I don’t how it’s going to look. I tried to meet with a customer in November in a very lovely restaurant I love in Chicago, and she was nervous the whole time because she moved to a more rural area, and she wasn’t comfortable with all the people around here. I don’t have an office in Chicago anymore, so I’m going to have to figure something out there. It’s a little bit of a challenge and nothing I thought I would be facing.
For the moment, people seem to be happy with Zoom calls. They feel comfortable at their own house. I’ve upped my game in terms of my packaging, so the presentation when they receive something is nicer than before, and I think they appreciate that. I’ve had so many compliments on my new packaging, which has been nice because I did work on hard on it. I’m trying to lend a little extra where I can because I haven’t been able to be in person.
Sharon: If you can’t be in person all the time, how do you build a luxury experience? What do you do, like you’ve done with your packaging? What do you do over Instagram?
Whitney: I don’t know that it’s attainable to have a luxury experience over a screen or by scrolling through your phone and sitting in your car. I think we’re going to have to come back around, to wait for whatever’s going to happen with this virus so that people eventually can be back in touch with each other. When I thought things were calming down and we could get back to it, my ideas were to have a private room at an upscale restaurant, have food and drinks provided by the restaurant, and have a very small trunk show. That is very doable and very luxurious. People like to receive an invitation like that. Those are things I have on my to-do list, but I haven’t been able to do them yet.
I think the actual luxury experience you receive is when you come into a private jewelry store or salon, and someone offers you a glass of champagne and things like that while you shop. Unfortunately, we can’t have champagne through Instagram right now, but for the last two years, I’ve sent all my customers a Christmas/holiday gift that was jewelry related that they all loved. You know Julie and Amy from Juler’s Row. I had her do a dish for me last year, and I sent that out to all my customers, a little ring dish, and they loved that. This year I did something else. It’s all jewelry related, but it’s just in remembrance. It’s not only people that bought from me this year. It’s my long-term customers and the additional people that purchase. It comes from remembrance and, “Hey, I’m thinking about you. Hopefully we can see each other again soon.”
Sharon: I think having people know you remember them is so important. You mentioned earlier that when you first opened your store with other designers, some people were already collectors of yours. I guess the $64,000 question is what do you consider a collector? It’s such a hard thing to answer. What do you consider a collector?
Whitney: I think somebody that has a passion for a certain area of jewelry. Some people are a little more contemporary-based and some people are more interested in ancient, or they only buy antiques or they only collect pearls. They have to have a passion for it. They collect and add meaningful pieces to their collection. I had one customer who didn’t wear jewelry; she collected it to collect it, and she loved every piece. She has enormous amounts, a couple of different segments of jewelry, American Indian and some contemporary. It’s very interesting. So, I think a collector is somebody who has an eye for a certain thing they love, something they have a meaningful connection to. If they can afford to have whatever they want, good for them, and if they can’t, if they buy one piece a year, I think that’s great. Like you say, it’s a hard thing to answer.
I collect jewelry. When I go into a store—typically I would go into a gallery—I’m looking for things I connect to. I can’t believe how much jewelry I have in my business. I hardly have any of my own jewelry compared to what I have of other people’s jewelry. I have pieces by 15 or 20 different jewelers I’ve known over the years, things I see and love and I think, “I would love to own that. Hopefully I can buy that.”
Then I have things that mean a lot to me because they’re historical, like my John Paul Miller jewelry. Because my friendship with John is so meaningful to me, his pieces mean more to me than any other pieces of jewelry I have. I think if you have a personal connection with somebody, it makes it even more special. I have a couple of master jewelry idols of mine that I still hope to purchase a piece from.
Sharon: Do you wear most of your own stuff?
Whitney: I mix it up. My best person that wears my jewelry is my mom. She always has my jewelry on. She can be cleaning the garage with a four-ounce necklace on. It’s very funny. Everywhere we go, people will stop and say, “Your earrings are amazing.” She’ll say, “Oh, she made them.” She tells everybody. She’s always head-to-toe in my jewelry.
I do wear certain pieces of mine. I’m lucky enough to have my John Paul Millers. I do wear many of those pieces on a daily basis, which maybe I shouldn’t, but I don’t care. I enjoy them so much. Then I have other people’s jewelry that I mix in. Some days I will wake up and feel like wearing all my knockout jewelry, or a lot of contemporary pieces that are fun. Mostly I wear black clothing, so it’s easy to mix things in. It’s a mood; if I wake up and I want to wear this, or sometimes I realize I’ve been wearing the same earrings for three weeks.
Sharon: I didn’t realize there was another color besides black.
Whitney: Right, I know you well enough to know. It’s wonderful. It’s a great backdrop for everything.
Sharon: It is. I was sitting in the doctor’s waiting room yesterday with women who probably could have been my kids, but everybody had black on. I did too, and I thought, “Gosh, it is a backdrop. It’s a great backdrop.”
Whitney: Yeah.
Sharon: When you go back to Chicago once things turn around, what is your next step?
Whitney: My next step right now is to be in a holding pattern. So many people that know me are like, “What are you doing? You’re a New York/Chicago person; you’re a city person. How are you doing? Are you happy?” I love it up here. I can’t wait until the piers are put back in and I can go jump in the water. I think the last day I was in the water was October 19, which was late for some people up here. I spent a lot of time in the summer going up to Canada, staying on an island in the summer. I was an outdoor person when I was not in the city, but it’s a great lifestyle. You go down at night and watch the sunset off the pier.
For now, some of my things are still in storage, but I’m planning on getting the rest of my tools out. I have a very functional studio set up right now which I like a lot, so I’m planning on staying. I’ll see what happens in Chicago. Maybe I’ll do more of a pied-á-terre situation where I can be down there more, not in hotels and things like that. It’s a little bit up in the air, but so far, so good. I’ve met a lot of like-minded people with interesting jewelry up here, which has been wonderful, making a little community like that. But I’m still in touch with all my friends and customers, so we’ll do a trunk show up here or something.
Sharon: Is the kind of jewelry people look at up there different? Do you find a difference in people who are more outdoorsy?
Whitney: A lot of people up here wear silver jewelry. You would be surprised, not knowing anything about the area. One of the jewelry collectors in Chicago—I don’t know if you went to the Driehaus in Chicago.
Sharon: Yeah.
Whitney: O.K., so Richard Driehaus passed away in March. He had a big home up here. His home on the lake just sold for $41 million. There’s a home next to him for $21 million, and we’re not talking about little lake homes. There is a huge community of people that wear jewelry. There are incredibly successful jewelry stores up here that sell very high-end commercial lines you would find in Bergdorf’s or Saks, and they have boutique shops up here. It’s an enclave of people that have been here forever, people who have come in from Milwaukee and Chicago through the years, people who just come for the summer. People are flying here from New York City and not going to the Hamptons. It’s like Traverse City in Michigan. It’s very much that type of community, and there are very high-end restaurants and stores. It runs the gamut.
Sharon: Not log cabins.
Whitney: No, it is not. You don’t need your flashlight to go out at night.
Sharon: Are there jewelry galleries up there?
Whitney: I would say the closest to a jewelry gallery would be the Opal Man, which is a gemist who sells only opal jewelry, which is an interesting concept. There are other stores that will do repair, stringing and things like that, but then they have very high-end jewelry lines, lots of diamonds. They also have tourist jewelry that is geared around the lake, a charm of the lake with the location of someone’s house on it, things like that. There’s one woman whose specialty is equestrian jewelry. She only has equestrian customers. It’s very specialized, but there isn’t a jewelry gallery.
Some people have asked me, “Are you going to open a store there?” It would be a great place to have a store. That would be something I’d have to think about long and hard, because it’s harder to be at the lake for four or five hours a day if you have a store, and I really enjoy the lake. So, we’ll see what happens. It’s not anything I thought would happen, so it’s a new adventure, but it’s really nice.
Sharon: I admire your ability to roll with the punches. One question: what is your attraction to high-karat gold jewelry? Why not silver? What is it that attracts you?
Whitney: I love silver jewelry. I have a huge collection of silver jewelry starting from when I was little. I don’t know. It was an unbelievable feeling when I walked into that exhibition of Greek items. I was completely overcome. I knew it was a visceral reaction, my entire body, and I said, “This is what I’m going to do.” I don’t know where that came from. I had Greek history and things like that in school, but I never thought, “Oh, I have to have high-karat gold jewelry.” I was always attracted to other people’s work, like Bill Harper, John Paul Miller, things like that, which I had known about previous to seeing this exhibition, but I never thought, “Do I want to make that?” Once I saw this, I was so overcome. Then the Victoria & Albert Museum Vault Collection, when I walked in there and saw all these pieces I had seen in the past in books, when I saw them in person, I literally started crying. I thought the guard was going to kick me out or something, like “Who is this crazy person?”
I’ve always enjoyed working with it. I’ve never done sheer 24-karat; I’ve always done 22. The fact that you can fuse it, the fact that you don’t have to use solder and it’s so malleable and doesn’t fight you—if you want to set in an opal, you’re not pushing against 14-karat and hoping you don’t break the stone. It folds around it like butter. It’s such a pleasure that you can alloy your own metal and use different draw plates to make various shapes, if you’re lucky enough to have options in that respect.
It allows for a different form of creativity, but you’re also honoring the past. There’s always some sort of historical element that comes into any piece you make in 22-karat. You’re using granulation or chain making or fusion, things you cannot do with other karats, unless they’re specialized 18-karat fine silver, which you can granulate within chains very easily. I think part of it is the ease. I don’t make 14-karat gold jewelry, but sometimes even with 18-karat gold, I’m fighting with the sheet and it’s turning black because it has so much copper, and I’m used to very little copper. So, it’s an absolute pleasure to work with. I think once someone catches the bug of the buttery look of it, you can hold a piece of 14-karat next to it and think, “Ugh,” but if you saw the 14-karat piece on its own, you’d think, “That’s beautiful.” It’s just something that came over me. I’m not sure where it came from.
Sharon: Well, your jewelry is beautiful.
Whitney: Thank you.
Sharon: I appreciate you being here today and for rolling with the punches and being so flexible.
Whitney: I’m aware of the adventure I’m on.
Sharon: Whitney, thank you so much for being here.
Whitney: Thank you, Sharon. Great to speak with you again. Take care.
Sharon: You too, thanks.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Whitney Abrams
Whitney Abrams’ high-karat gold creations are a reflection of her love of the Renaissance aesthetic and her admiration for the technical abilities of the Ancients. Inspired by the rich tones of high-karat gold and intense hues of unique, precious stones, her hand-made pieces involve the wearer in an experience of regal beauty.
Her interest in intaglios and cameos has led her to develop relationships with several German carvers who provide her clients with custom carvings that connect them with Abrams’ creations on an unparalleled level.
Whitney has studied goldsmithing and exhibited her jewelry throughout the United States and Europe. Her work is included in a number of publications on the subject of jewelry as an art form and jewelry making techniques.
Whitney Abrams presents her collections privately to collectors throughout the country, as well as online.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Since joining the Jewelry Journey Podcast as a guest in February 2020, maker and jewelry gallery owner Whitney Abrams’ life and business have changed dramatically: she moved away from her busy Chicago studio to vacation hotspot Lake Geneva, WI, and has spent the last year finding the inspiration that comes with a more relaxed lifestyle. Although it’s been challenging to provide customers with the luxury experience she’s known for in a pandemic, Whitney has discovered that the relationships she fostered with her customers can withstand the distance. She joined another episode of the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what life is like in Lake Geneva; how she keeps in touch with longstanding clients; and how social media has helped her business grow. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, my guest is Whitney Abrams, owner and founder of Whitney Abrams Jewelry, a private jewelry studio specializing in high-karat jewelry. Whitney was one of our pre-Covid guests in episode 62, which you can find in our podcast archives on the Jewelryjourney.com website. Today, we’ll hear Whitney’s jewelry journey and how she’s handled the challenges of continuing her business in the time of Covid. Whitney, welcome to the program.
Whitney: Great to see you again, Sharon. Thank you.
Sharon: You’re quite an accomplished high-karat goldsmith. For people who haven’t heard your story, can you tell us about your jewelry journey?
Whitney: Sure. Thank you for that compliment. I grew up loving jewelry. I came from a family that loved jewelry. My dad designed pieces over the years for my mom that he had other jewelers make, and my grandparents collected a lot of jewelry. Starting from when I was about seven, I was gifted with jewelry for every occasion. It was really part of the fabric of our family. I always had a penchant for stand-alone gems.
Although I went to school for communication studies at the University of Iowa, I found my way to a fine arts metals minor there. They had a nice jewelry department, so that fed into my interest in making. I learned how to fabricate. From there, I went into business—it was a national advertising sales position—for years, but I always did jewelry on the side. At my home I had, not a studio per se, but a maker’s room, I called it, because I didn’t have a torch. I continued taking studio time through the Lincoln Park Association in Chicago.
Subsequently, I found myself enjoying jewelry more than my full-time job. I ended up taking some classes overseas. I took a course in Ireland with a gentleman named Brian Clark—
Sharon: I’m sorry, in Ireland?
Whitney: In Ireland. It’s a town about an hour south of Dublin. He has a silversmithing course he offers in the summer. It’s an intensive program. I went for a month, and it was absolutely wonderful and immersive. You used the bellows to pump air into the flame with your foot while you’re standing on one foot and trying to solder. You’re learning things; you’re doing things that are done in a very different way than I had been exposed to in the States. It was absolutely wonderful. I learned how to use chafing tools and different hammers, and I made some bowls and things I hadn’t been exposed to before. That was really fabulous.
Then I ended up traveling a lot through Europe, and I came upon an exhibition in London. I stumbled upon the Ogden exhibition called “Greek Gold” at the British Museum. When I walked in there and saw all the Etruscan and the 22-karat, 24-karat granulated pieces, the handmade chains, I had an epiphany. I said, “This is it. This is what I’m going to do.”
When I got back home, I set my sights on finding places to learn how to do those techniques and work in high-karat jewelry. That took me to New York City. I ended up taking a couple of intensive courses in New York. At the time, there were about three Greek schools teaching those processes. I ended up being offered an apprenticeship because in five days, I had made seven significant pieces. They said, “This is your thing. You’ve got this.” So, I packed my bags, I moved to New York City, and that’s where I landed for years. I continued on there at Seebauer Studio for about a year. I learned a lot by watching the teaching going on and watching other students making things, people that had a lot more experience than I did.
Then I got my own studio space with a longtime friend of mine from seventh grade. She happened to live in New York City and was also taking jewelry classes, so we could share a studio. That led me, a couple of years later, to open Metal Kitchen, which was a jewelry-making school in Soho. We taught everything from marketing—I had experts in all the different fields come in, whether you should buy a safe, whether you should get jewelry insurance—to all the different techniques. I had traveling instructors from Italy and all over the United States and Canada come in to teach courses, which was really wonderful.
At that time, I was doing a lot of commission work and a lot of shows for the Philadelphia Museum of Art, Park Avenue Crafts and the American Craft Council, that show circuit for high-end crafts. That landed me at the dot com bust, where all the rents blew up in New York. So, I ended up having to close the school, which was very sad for me because I loved meeting all the different instructors and students, but our rent went astronomically high and it wasn’t possible to continue there.
At that point, I moved back to Chicago a couple of years later and opened my gallery in the Gold Coast area in Chicago. It was about two blocks off Michigan Avenue. I had that for 10 years, and then I went to a private studio about a block away. I maintained a lot of my customer base; probably about 1,000 steady people and 300 real collectors. I carried a lot of other artists’ work at the gallery, but I did a lot of commission work and a lot of my own pieces. I worked from my home studio.
During this time—I definitely spoke to you a couple of years before all this started—after living in my place for a year and not really being able to go out much between Covid and the atmosphere in Chicago in the last year and a half, I ended up moving up to Lake Geneva, which is a resort area in southern Wisconsin, about five miles over the border from Illinois. It’s about an hour and a half from where I was living. I have family up here and I have my studio, so I’m continuing to work. I’ve even had several of my customers who have become friends come up for lunch this summer and sit outside. We continue to make connections with people. They ordered some commissions, so we’re continuing on and it’s been great.
Sharon: Would you still call what you have a private studio? I know you really focused on the luxury aspect.
Whitney: I don’t have an open studio anymore as I did in Chicago, but I will come and meet people, and they are welcome to come to my studio by appointment. It is still, to some extent, more private than it was before, but it was more of a reaction to what was going on. I really did find that the stress I was under in Chicago over the last year and half sapped my energy and creativity. Being able to be outside and have my own space and not have to deal with—I was on a very busy corner that had a lot of police activity and things like that, so it wasn’t conducive to walking around with gemstones and fine metals. Things have turned around in terms of being able to sleep all night and create and have energy. The thought process is back, and it’s concentrating once again on the jewelry. So, that’s great.
Sharon: It sounds like it was very stressful there.
Whitney: It was a little stressful. You keep going through it and going through it, and when it seemed like there was an end, then something else happened. I just thought, “You know what? I think I need a change for a while.” Whether that means I go back or I don’t go back, I’m not sure yet, but things have certainly calmed down there, and I still have many friends that live there. I was there the other day, and things are getting a little more back to normal. We’ll see what happens, but for the moment I’m happy having my own studio again and making.
Sharon: Lake Geneva, you said it’s a vacation area. I’m not familiar with it.
Whitney: It’s one of the largest fresh-water lakes in the country, and it’s a big boating community. There are about 700 houses on the lake. A lot of families have had mansions here historically. It was a summer retreat for Chicago people going back many, many years, and there are a lot of old mansions here. It’s kind of like the Hamptons of Chicago, in terms of people can drive there in less than an hour and a half or two hours, get to their house, be on the lake, have their boats and park at the piers and go into town and have lunch or shop. It’s a whole lake life community up here. It’s wonderful to get up at 4:00, get up from your bed, go down and float on your raft for an hour and jump in the lake. It’s great.
Sharon: What do people do during the winter? Does it close down?
Whitney: There are a lot of things here in the winter. There are a lot of festivals, a lot of things that are based around cold weather and ice and ice sculpture. There’s an international ice sculpture competition here starting next week, and that happens every year. There’s skiing in the area. There’s ice fishing and snowmobiling. There are a lot of outdoor things going on even though it’s cold, which is probably foreign to you in the warmth of California, but it’s really embraced here.
There are a lot of people that are here year-round, and the year-round population here during Covid has expanded greatly. There are a lot more people where I’m living who have only come up three or four weekends or 10 weekends in the summer, but they are now permanently living here with their kids and they’re in school. It’s a lot of people that have left not just Chicago, but Milwaukee and other larger cities that are near here. There’s a whole system of lakes around here that have expanded the population during Covid. There’s definitely a lot going on.
Sharon: Wow! You brought some of your existing clientele, but how has it been in terms of—is it rebuilding? It’s such a change.
Whitney: It’s kind of rebuilding, but it’s kind of maintaining relationships that I’ve had. The one great thing about Zoom has been that you can show people gemstones; you can discuss pieces. One thing I have seen a shift in with my customers is, with the time we all spent at home organizing and cleaning things, they would say, “Oh my, I found a ring of my grandmother’s I forgot I had,” or “This is broken. I have four diamonds from this and a couple of stones from that. Would you have some tourmaline that would go with it?” We use Zoom calls instead of traveling and seeing each other in person, and that’s been really interesting. Then having Instagram, and being able to do trunk shows instead of being in-person at a jewelry show or having a trunk show at a jewelry store that happened to be closed down or didn’t want 20 people at a time in their shop, now that things have relaxed a tiny bit. It’s definitely been an adjustment.
Also, one of my opal dealers, who’s been an opal dealer for many years, he has a store in Lake Geneva where he sells opal jewelry. He and I have done a couple things together. There are several other jewelry stores in the towns around the lake. It’s a 26-mile lake, so there are several towns around the perimeter of the lake. It’s been very nice to connect with people who have shown at Tucson, who have been in the industry since the 70s and have an inventory of stones and other things I’ve needed. I’ve gone over to this woman in Lake Geneva and said, “Hey, do you have this? Do you have that?” and looked through her stones. It’s been very interesting. It’s kind of a shift.
Sharon: It sounds like a shift. I give you credit because you have to be flexible to turn on a dime like that.
Whitney: I thought, “Well, am I going to sit here and feel like doing nothing, or am I going to do something?” I just have to get going and do something. Chicago was interesting because they shut all the outdoor spaces down. You couldn’t walk along the lake. They closed everything and there were police blocking all the entrances. I think a lot of people that didn’t live there don’t realize that. Now, of course, all that has been taken away, but it was nine months of you’re not allowed to go to a park; you’re not allowed to go the lake, which was outside my door. It was a very different way of living, and this has really been great. It’s been wonderful. I’ve got some friends that also came up from Chicago. It’s moving to a small town, but thankfully I know some people. I’ve met a lot of very nice people. I’ve made some great connections. Between the internet and phone calls and Instagram, it’s been easy to keep in touch with my other clients.
Sharon: I didn’t realize you had a magazine background. I know in the past you had a done a lot with print.
Whitney: I did. When I was doing national ad sales, it was network television. That was not magazine-related; that was network television stations, but I did do a lot of advertising, as we discussed before, when I had my store. Print ads were wildly successful for me for the store. I think when you have a physical location people can come to, that makes a lot of sense. Up here, there are a lot of equestrian places and people that board their horses. I’ve been approached by a couple of magazines that cater to that because I have German carvers. I’ve had customers in Chicago who’ve given me pictures of their horses or their dogs, and the carvers put the animals on cameos. That’s something I’m looking at dipping back into.
Sharon: You segued so quickly, very successfully, to Instagram. How has that been during Covid? Tell us more about that.
Whitney: It’s been wonderful. I have enjoyed it. I have had nothing but positive experiences. I’ve connected to a lot of gem dealers. Everybody in the beginning was scrambling: “How is this going to work? The stores are closed. All the shows are canceled.” It was a collaborative opening for people to discuss, “How can we have a trunk show virtually? What software are you using? How are you doing this? What camera are you using?” People were open to sharing information and helping each other succeed and move through this time that no one had experienced before. So, that was really wonderful.
Then, because the gem shows were not happening—not that I need another gem, as I may have told you before. I had no business going to Tucson again, but it’s always fun, especially at a time when you couldn’t go out shopping or do anything. It was like, “Oh, look at those watermelon slices, O.K.” A lot of the gem dealers started posting, and I was starting to buy from people I hadn’t bought from, or maybe they showed in Tucson at a show I hadn’t been to. It was an introduction to a lot of people I hadn’t interacted with personally before.
In terms of my jewelry, I had never experienced where I would post a finished piece, and someone would buy it immediately off Instagram. That was something new, and that was a real lift when people were saying, “O.K., this is cancelled, that’s canceled, that’s canceled.” I started posting a lot of finished work, and I got a lot of commissions or people purchasing things right off of Instagram.
Sharon: Do you think things will go back? What’s the new normal with this?
Whitney: I don’t know. I think people are now very comfortable using technology they didn’t think they would be able to use. I’m not sure what the next thing is going to be because Instagram was so different. I was late to the game; I think I joined in 2016, but it keeps growing, and people are adapting along with it. There are a couple of artists who I think have done a neat job of doing release dates. They post in-process pieces, and there’s a timer you can put on your Instagram with the release date, and then they sell everything at once. A fabulous idea. It’s like having an instant trunk show, and people have the anticipation. I remember when retailers would release a new collection. It’s very similar. That’s really been interesting.
I’m hoping to go to the Tucson Gem Show at the end of this month. It seems like it’s going to go on. I’ve had messages from some of my dealers saying they’re not coming from Brazil or China, but most people seem like they’re coming from Germany, so we’ll see what’s going to happen with that. I don’t think those shows may ever be as large as they have been in the past.
Sharon: So, Tucson is still on. I know because I’ve had trips canceled that are in March or April already.
Whitney: I know. They’re saying Tucson is still on. I’m supposed to go on the 28th of January. We shall see.
Sharon: Well, I hope so
Whitney: It’s getting close. I don’t know what the rules are. It’s so up in the air, especially with the little peak of Covid we’re having now, but fingers crossed. I have literally not been on an airplane since Tucson in 2020. That was my last trip. I hope it goes on, but if it doesn’t—I’ve booked trips over the past two years that I’ve canceled, but I would like to go. If I can’t go, I can’t go.
Sharon: I hope you can go. I hope it’s a go.
Whitney: I know. Everything’s a little bit out of our control right now, so just roll with it and see what happens. I can cancel my hotel, so I’m not worried about it. They’ve already changed both of my flights to different flights entirely, and that was like six weeks ago, so who knows?
Sharon: I hope you do get to go. Maybe there will be some normalcy in the world. I do think once I get past the hunger for being able to go shows, it will be a new normal.
Whitney: It’s the camaraderie of our group of friends that is so wonderful. The people in this industry are so delightful. WhatsApp has been another thing. I don’t know if you use that. That has been a neat connection to a lot of my friends in Europe. We call each other. We travel. One of my friends who’s a gem dealer from the East Coast, they spontaneously went to Italy. I couldn’t believe they picked up and went before Christmas, but I told them all the jewelry-related places to go in Florence. I lived in Florence for a while. They had the best time. It was so fun, and I said, “I’m going to live vicariously through you.”
Sharon: That’s great. Italy is on my list when the world opens up a little more. Maybe it’s just America that is so closed. When it opens, you hear about everybody traveling. You have to share your vaccination card, but you know.
Whitney: Right, I know.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cindi Strauss
Cindi Strauss is the Sara and Bill Morgan Curator of Decorative Arts, Craft, and Design and Assistant Director, Programming at the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston (MFAH). She received her BA with honors in art history from Hamilton College and her MA in the history of decorative arts from the Cooper-Hewitt/Parsons School of Design. At the MFAH, Cindi is responsible for the acquisition, research, publication, and exhibition of post-1900 decorative arts, design, and craft. Jewelry is a mainstay of Cindi’s curatorial practice. In addition to regularly curating permanent collection installations that include contemporary jewelry from the museum’s collection, she has organized several exhibitions that are either devoted solely to jewelry or include jewelry in them. These include: Beyond Ornament: Contemporary Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2003–2004); Ornament as Art: Avant-Garde Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2007); Liquid Lines: Exploring the Language of Contemporary Metal (2011); and Beyond Craft: Decorative Arts from the Leatrice S. and Melvin B. Eagle Collection (2014). Cindi has authored or contributed to catalogs and journals on jewelry, craft, and design topics, and has been a frequent lecturer at museums nationwide. She also serves on the editorial advisory committee for Metalsmith magazine.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
For the uninitiated, jewelry, art and craft may seem like three distinct (and perhaps, unfortunately, hierarchical) entities. But Cindi Strauss, Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, Texas, wants us to break down these barriers and appreciate the value of jewelry as an art in its own right. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she helped MFA Houston establish one of the largest art jewelry collections at an American museum; why jewelry artists should be proud of their studio craft roots; and why wearability shouldn’t be the first consideration when looking at art jewelry. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, our guest is Cindi Strauss, the Sara and Bill Morgan Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, Texas. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Welcome back.
I remember having a conversation where I did not know what you meant—I know now, but an encyclopedic museum. What does that mean?
Cindi: It means a museum that collects and displays art from antiquities to the present and covers—I’m not going to say all, because one could never say all as in completely—but covers very thoroughly all world cultures. We collect across the board in terms of types of art making, so the MFA in Houston is the only encyclopedic institution in our region. We’re in the south-central region, if you will, so we were founded on the idea of the big institutions that were founded in the late 19th century in the Northeast and Midwest. That was the ambition.
Sharon: Well, it’s Houston. I presume it’s the biggest. You only go for big, I presume. You’re big into crafts in terms of studying. Where do they fit into all of this? Where do you cross the line from jewelry to craft? Is jewelry is a craft? How do you see it?
Cindi: I separate design from craft—these are generalizations, but you can separate the handmade from the machine-made or the industrial-made. There are certainly design objects that have the hand as part of them. I think art jewelry is absolutely part of the studio craft movement. It comes out of that history. It’s a vital history and has to do with material usage and development, handcraft skills, making things on a one-off basis, making one-of-a-kind pieces. Today, of course, we have this wonderful hybridization, which allows for a type of creativity that is unbridled. So, you will have things that have industrially based materials, or people making works in limited editions, but at its heart, it comes out of a studio practice and a studio history.
All of it, as far as we consider it at the MFAH, is art. It’s art in the same way that photography is, that painting is. It’s exhibited on an equal plane, and you see that throughout our new building. There are departments, specific galleries on the second floor. I have both craft and design galleries, but the third floor is completely interdisciplinary, so you get to make those connections and see the dialogue between jewelry and anything else, for that matter. At our institution, it’s a wonderful way to have your cake and eat it too, because the possibilities are endless.
One of the things I have been fortunate with, both with art jewelry and our ceramics collection—because they have both been a part of the institution now for almost 20 years—is that I’m not on a steep learning curve. My colleagues aren’t on a steep learning curve of understanding the tenets of the field and how jewelry connects and crosses over; it just is. That is an amazing place to be.
Sharon: As you were saying that, I was thinking about how you cover this in your mind, let alone physically. There are so many areas you’re talking about.
Cindi: Yeah, and it’s only one part of what I do, because I am responsible, basically, for 20th and 21st-century decorative arts, craft and design. Now, I’m really lucky that we have an endowed position for a craft curator, who was formerly Anna Walker. Joining us at the end of this month is Elizabeth Essner, who may be familiar to some of your audience because she has written on art jewelry and worked on art jewelry exhibitions. That’s terrific, because she is completely dedicated to that material.
There’s another curator in my department; we split the late 19th century and early 20th century material based on our own interests and expertise. She otherwise does the historical material, but she does Art Nouveau; I do Art Deco. She does Arts and Crafts; I do Reform. That 20 or 30-year period when there are so many styles of movements happening, we share that. We have a terrific curatorial assistant who helps, but I love the fact that I don’t work on only one media group or timeframe or one geographic area. It allows me to see more broadly. It allows me to make a lot of connections that I wouldn’t be able to make if I my job description were more solid. Frankly, you never get bored.
Sharon: It sounds very exciting.
Cindi: There’s always more to learn and see.
Sharon: It sounds thrilling to cover all that. I’m wondering; it seems that some art jewelers or any kind of jeweler, like studios jewelers, they might think “craftsperson” or “that’s craft” is a little pejorative.
Cindi: I don’t think so anymore. That was something that—from my perspective and my personal opinion—throughout the birth and few decades of the studio craft movement, it was held in high esteem. There were galleries that showed important painters and sculptors next to ceramists and jewelers and such. In the 80s, when the art world changed dramatically, the go-go 80s, a lot of these divisions started happening. That was when the big “Is craft art?” question came. It did such damage to the field because artists were demoralized; collectors started getting defensive. Looking back on it, it’s clear those questions and divisions did damage to the field.
By the time I was in graduate school in the early 90s, there was a pause on that silo-ing and splitting. So, I did not, from a graduate school perspective, learn any of those divisions. It was all decorative arts. Craft and design was all one field, but I think, certainly in the past 10 years, if not longer than that, that division, that question has been put to rest. I think from an academic perspective, from an artistic perspective, I hope from a collecting perspective, that that has all been pushed behind. It is just art.
If you look at what’s happening with major galleries, they’re showing ceramics; they’re showing art jewelry along with their contemporary art program. In a way, that harkens back to the 70s and 60s. The market prices haven’t quite caught up to where they should be based on the artistic quality of a craft artist. That will, I think, take a little more time. But every other metric, looking at reviews, art magazines, exhibitions, the big galleries that get a lot of press, they’re showing fiber; they’re showing ceramics. They’re even starting to show jewelry. So, I hope everything has moved so far that that question gets put to bed.
I’ve always felt that, in this case, art jewelry should be incredibly proud of its history and its field individually and not spend all of its time worrying about what the larger art world thinks. The larger art world is interested and that’s terrific, but that should not be its only goal. I think it is important and worthy as an artistic movement, statement, something to collect, etc. on its own. A lot of the encyclopedic museums that have been showing and acquiring major collections of art jewelry are validating that, beyond the more specific museums like the Museum of Arts and Designs, formerly the American Craft Museum, or Racine or the Fuller Craft Museum, or a number of different institutions around the country that collect a lot of craft, or museums like the Metal Museum that focuses just on jewelry. That’s an important step forward, also.
Sharon: You’re certainly an articulate champion of art jewelry being not just jewelry, but a medium. So, the Fuller and the Racine are where?
Cindi: The Fuller is in Massachusetts outside of Boston. I can’t remember its exact town. The Racine is in Racine, Wisconsin. The Metal Museum is in Memphis, Tennessee. Then there are a variety of other museums that have shown art jewelry through individual artists’ exhibitions. I’m thinking about San Francisco Craft and Design. It used to be Craft and Design, but now I think it’s called the Los Angeles Contemporary Museum. We, of course, have the MFA Boston. You have Minneapolis, LACMA, Dallas Museum of Art, all with significant jewelry collections in terms of encyclopedic institutions, and there are other institutions that have core holdings.
Sharon: You touched on this, but the question always is: is art jewelry art? It’s always a debate when you’re trying to educate or explain it to somebody.
Cindi: I think that’s the case because art jewelry is wearable, and people aren’t used to thinking that something that is wearable is also art in the way you would display it, whether that’s hanging on a wall or displaying it in glass. That is a personal divide; it’s something people individually have to work through.
There’s no question that it’s art, but I have noticed, in my experience, when people see art jewelry in the museum context, especially women, one of the first things they’re thinking about is, “Would I wear this?” Once you can get people to remove that question from a first, second or third consideration, they can look and experience the work as a piece of art. It’s great for them to think about whether they could wear it, because if you remove the taste question, they’re really looking to see how this piece of jewelry would interact with their body, which is so central to a lot of work in art jewelry. You want that to happen.
What you want to get away from, in terms of experiencing it as a work of art, is taste. Is this my taste? Would I wear this? When we have docent tours or any kind of educational program that centers around art jewelry, this is one of the things we stress. You can, of course, like something or not like that. That’s with everything in a museum and everything in the world, but try to look at a piece of art jewelry without that consideration being foremost. Then work through it as a piece of art being displayed and then, yes, think about how it will work on your body.
Sharon: That’s interesting. My first thing is to look. It’s jewelry. I’ll go for big pieces or big statement pieces. Some of it is too much, but if you do back off, you can look at it as art. Do you think the art world looks at art jewelry as art or thinks about it becoming art, or do you think it’s not going to happen?
Cindi: I think when people encounter it, every collector out there can talk about experiences when they’ve been at an art fair or an opening or a party where they’re wearing a piece of art jewelry and it gets attention. People have questions and they want to know about it. That is an introduction to this field, and it inspires a lot of people to learn about it and collect it. Whether it’s a gallery setting, or a museum, or a booth at an art fair, or an exhibition in space of any type, the key is that people are going to react to it. Whether they like it or not, whether their interest lasts beyond that initial visit, they are being presented with the fact that this is an art form. That does a lot.
I think that’s, in part, why as a field we are always striving to have more opportunities for people to see art jewelry and connect with it, because that will inspire that interest. Everything has its ups and downs in terms of viewing possibilities, the market, etc., but my personal experience, again, is that people are really intrigued by it when they see it. Even if they don’t explore anything further after that initial encounter, it’s still lodged in their memory. You never know when that comes back and becomes a touchstone.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’d like to ask you a lot more questions. You gave me a lot of food for thought. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us, Cindi. It’s been educational and illuminating, and I’ll have to mull it over.
Cindi: Thank you, Sharon, I appreciate the opportunity. It’s been great fun.
Sharon: Thank you.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cindi Strauss
Cindi Strauss is the Sara and Bill Morgan Curator of Decorative Arts, Craft, and Design and Assistant Director, Programming at the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston (MFAH). She received her BA with honors in art history from Hamilton College and her MA in the history of decorative arts from the Cooper-Hewitt/Parsons School of Design. At the MFAH, Cindi is responsible for the acquisition, research, publication, and exhibition of post-1900 decorative arts, design, and craft. Jewelry is a mainstay of Cindi’s curatorial practice. In addition to regularly curating permanent collection installations that include contemporary jewelry from the museum’s collection, she has organized several exhibitions that are either devoted solely to jewelry or include jewelry in them. These include: Beyond Ornament: Contemporary Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2003–2004); Ornament as Art: Avant-Garde Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2007); Liquid Lines: Exploring the Language of Contemporary Metal (2011); and Beyond Craft: Decorative Arts from the Leatrice S. and Melvin B. Eagle Collection (2014). Cindi has authored or contributed to catalogs and journals on jewelry, craft, and design topics, and has been a frequent lecturer at museums nationwide. She also serves on the editorial advisory committee for Metalsmith magazine.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
For the uninitiated, jewelry, art and craft may seem like three distinct (and perhaps, unfortunately, hierarchical) entities. But Cindi Strauss, Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, Texas, wants us to break down these barriers and appreciate the value of jewelry as an art in its own right. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she helped MFA Houston establish one of the largest art jewelry collections at an American museum; why jewelry artists should be proud of their studio craft roots; and why wearability shouldn’t be the first consideration when looking at art jewelry. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, our guest is Cindi Strauss, the Sara and Bill Morgan Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, Texas, where she’s been responsible for a number of exhibits and has written extensively. She coauthored the recent book “Influx: American Jewelry and the Counterculture.” In addition, she’s on the Board of Directors of Art Jewelry Forum. We’ll hear more about her jewelry journey today. Cindi, welcome to the program.
Cindi: Thank you, Sharon. I’m delighted to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you like jewelry, or did you come to it through decorative arts? How did that work?
Cindi: Well, the story has been heard. I have told it before, about how I was introduced to art jewelry through Helen Drutt through a serendipitous meeting with her. Prior to that, we only had one piece of art jewelry in the museum’s collection, a terrific Art Smith necklace from 1948. Personally, I come from a family who loves jewelry, but I have not been as much of a lover of it. I have always worn very minimal jewelry myself, so it’s sort of ironic that I am the curator of this phenomenal jewelry collection, the foundation of which is the acquisition in 2002 of Helen Drutt’s private collection. At that time, we acquired a little over 800 pieces, including sketchbooks and some drawings of international art jewelry dating from about 1963 to, at that point, the early 2000s. Helen continued to add to that collection up through 2006, when we were in the final preparation for the Ornamentist art exhibition and catalogue. That opened in 2007 in Houston and traveled to Washington, D.C., to Charlotte, North Carolina, and then to Tacoma, Washington. That is, from a publications point, a great point of demarcation in terms of art jewelry collections. Since then, not only has Helen continued to add pieces to the museum, but we have worked with a lot of national and local collectors, and our jewelry collection continues to grow through acquisitions and gifts.
I would say that in graduate school, I had the barest introduction to jewelry, and it was really historical jewelry as part of a larger decorative arts education, in terms of looking at styles and how they reflected themselves in historical jewelry. At the time I was in graduate school at the Cooper Hewitt, there was not a seminar on contemporary art jewelry or art jewelry in general, so my knowledge of it has really been built and continues to be built based on our collection, our commitment to it going forward, and trying to keep up with the bare minimum of what’s been happening in the field. I have to say Art Jewelry Forum is an amazing way for me to do that through their website, through the articles, through the artist awards, through the artist maker pages. It’s a very easy snapshot of what’s happening in the field, and then I can take that research and interest into other directions.
Sharon: I can’t imagine being an aficionado, whether it’s to study or just being a jewelry lover, and not being involved in Art Jewelry Forum. There’s no other place like it.
Cindi: There isn’t. Honestly, nine times out of 10, if I am interested in learning more about an artist and I plug in the artist’s name in Google, the first search that comes up is always Art Jewelry Forum. It’s either an interview or an article or something. For me, it has always been a one-stop initial research location.
Sharon: How did you come to study decorative arts? How did you become a professional in the area? Was that something you had always wanted to do? What was your training?
Cindi: It really happened, I would say, serendipitously. I grew up in a family where my father was in the design field, particularly in textiles. My parents’ preferred style was that of Scandinavia and Italian modern. I grew up in a contemporary house, so there was a certain amount of osmosis with this field. I grew up in Connecticut, which is more oriented towards colonial architecture and traditional interiors, and I knew our house was different and it kind of stuck out. I remember asking my parents when I was young why our house didn’t look like everybody else’s, and their answer was very simple: because this is what we like, and this is why we like it.
I went off to college and thought I was going to be an English major. I took an intro to art history survey and found I loved it, but it wasn’t until my senior year in college that a survey of the history of decorative arts was offered, and that completely ignited my fire. As much as I loved art history, I wanted to be able to touch paintings, which I can’t do. I was interested in the tactile qualities of art and texture and being able to feel and understand value. This introduction to the history of decorative arts was my gateway. That ignited a passion not only for the decorative arts, but when I was going to the museums and such during that time, I started to pay attention to decorative arts galleries more than I had in my museum billing previously. I thought, “This is what I want to do; this is where I want to be. I want to be in a museum and I want to be doing decorative arts.”
My first year out of college, I had an academic year fellowship at the Met. It was in a subset of the registrar’s office called the cataloguing department, and that gave me a bird’s eye, in-depth view of what was happening at the Met. At that time, I knew I was going to have go to graduate school, and I learned about Cooper Hewitt’s program in the history of decorative arts. At that point, I chose Cooper Hewitt. There was no graduate center yet, and I knew I didn’t want to do early American decorative arts. I wanted to have a broader art education, so I went to Cooper Hewitt. Interestingly, my thesis and a large chunk of my classes were on 18th-century European art, particularly porcelain, and I thought I would spend my career there because that’s where all the research was happening. With the exception of design museums or modern art museums like MOMA, a lot of the big, encyclopedic institutions were not really paying attention to decorative arts beyond the Arts and Crafts movement. But I took as many classes as I could in 20th-century design and took decorative arts because that was what my personal passion was.
I got lucky, because my first position after graduate school was curatorial assistant here in Houston. I was split between two departments, the decorative arts department and our not-yet-opened house museum, Rienzi. It was the perfect job for me because Rienzi was all about the 18th century, whereas the decorative arts department was just starting to move past the Arts and Crafts movement into modern and contemporary. Ultimately, I was able to determine the pathway for that and create a separate department, and I made my way out of the 18th century to focus completely on the 20th and 21st centuries. So, it was a pathway of following my heart and my curiosity within this larger field.
Sharon: What were your thoughts when you were presented with this 800+ piece collection by Helen Drutt and they said, “O.K., put this exhibit together”?
Cindi: First of all, it was completely daunting. Anyone who knows Helen knows her knowledge is so vast, and she is so generous with it, but at the beginning, it’s all brand new. So, it’s rather intimidating, and you’re doing so much looking and listening. In my initial conversations with Helen about the possibility of this acquisition, it was focused on the “Jewelry of Our Time” catalogue that she had cowritten, which featured a lot of the collection. There was a lot of study of that, trying to get myself up to speed to even make the presentations for the acquisition to not only my director, but our trustees.
It’s funny; I have my initial notebooks from my first visit to Philadelphia with Helen, where I spent a number of days just sitting next to her as she held up different pieces, talked about different people, gave insight. Because I didn’t know anything about the field—all the artists’ names are spelled phonetically—there are a lot of notes to myself saying, “What does this really mean?” or a question mark with “follow up” or something like that, and I was drawing. I think I had a cell phone, but there was no cell phone camera. I didn’t have an iPhone or iPad. I don’t even know if they existed in 2002, but I would draw little pictures next to something she was talking about. Anyone who knows me knows I am quite possibly the world’s worst draftsperson, so the pictures are hilarious. But I go back to those notebooks periodically, and you can see how I am intent on wrapping my head around this and trying to understand which countries, who were the major players, where things had gone.
We built a library at the museum with Helen’s help. She seeded our library intending to send books. We were ordering catalogues nonstop, and I spent the better part of four years immersing myself in art jewelry and talking to artists. At that point, it was all done through these forms we would mail to artists. I tried to meet artists, and Helen’s archives with all the correspondence were an incredible resource. There were interviews with artists and things like that. I would travel to the American Craft Council to see their incredible library and artist archive. I would do all of this plus travel to meet artists. I did a number of trips to Europe and across the U.S., trying to get my head around this field as seen through Helen’s collection. The collection represents not only her eye and experiences and viewpoint, but truly the birth and development of the field over decades, not just in America, but globally as well.
Sharon: What’s her connection to Houston? How is it she came to your museum?
Cindi: She didn’t have any real connection to Houston. At the time, her son, Matthew, was the Chief Curator of the Manil Collection, which is a terrific, incredible museum here in Houston. She also had a very close and longstanding friendship with our then-photography curator, Anne Tucker. They met in a cute way over a slide table at Moore College of Art in the 70s, when they were both teaching there.
We have a festival every other year in Houston called FotoFest. It’s one of the U.S.’s largest photography festivals, and all the institutions do exhibitions for FotoFest and their popup shows and galleries. The Houston Center for Contemporary Craft was only a year old at that point, but through connections, they met Helen. She curated a small show of photo-based, image-based jewelry for FotoFest, so of course she came down, and that’s where I met her.
I met her at the opening. We had coffee separately during her visit. I was really ramping up our craft collection in terms of acquisitions and representation. As I said, we only had this one piece of art jewelry. I knew enough about what I didn’t know to say to Helen at the time, “This is a field I’m interested in starting to acquire works from. Would you guide me?” She pointed me towards the “Jewelry of Our Time” catalogue and said, “Well, you know I have a collection.” I, of course, said, “Well, yes, it’s famous, and it’s in Philadelphia. It’s so lucky they’re going to get it.” She said, “Not necessarily. Nothing’s been done. There’s nothing in writing.” I seized on that and said, “Well, will you provide me with more information, and may I speak to my director about this?” She said, “Sure.”
It was, at the time, sort of a lark. I thought, “I don’t know whether this will happen,” because it was not a field we were familiar with and certainly my director, Peter Marzio, was not familiar with it. I showed him the book. I talked to him with my little knowledge. He was intrigued, because he saw in it what he referred to as a “visual index” of modern and contemporary art in small scale. He saw all the connections and the creativity, and he said, “I’d like to learn more.” I arranged for him to go to Philadelphia, where he spent half a day with Helen and they talked and looked at pieces. He came back and said to me, “I want to figure this out. I want to do this,” and the rest is history.
Sharon: Wow! It’s funny; when you were saying you were spelling things phonetically, I thought of Gijs Bakker. That’s the name that came to mind. For people listening, it’s G-i-l-s-b—
Cindi: G-i-j-s B-a-k-k-er. Gijs is one of the most important Dutch jewelry artists. He, along with his late wife, Emmy van Leersum, completely turned the idea of art jewelry on its head in the 60s. He and a number of other Dutch artists in the 60s and 70s revolutionized the field. Helen was such a great supporter, and he’s one of her dearest friends. We have something like 34 or 35 of his pieces in the collection, not just from Helen, but from a couple of others that we’ve added along the way. I think outside of the Netherlands, we have the largest collection of Gijs’ work.
Sharon: Wow! My first Art Jewelry Forum trip was to Amsterdam. I had just come to art jewelry myself, and his studio and his house were the first stop. When I think about it now, I think, “Oh, my god!” I had no idea. At the time, I didn’t know which way was up when it came to art jewelry.
Cindi: I think that is a lot of people’s first experience. It’s visually compelling, and then you start to learn more. Quite often, you realize after the fact you met one of these super-important people, or you were in their studio or what have you.
Sharon: Yeah, it really is. I’m backing up a little. When you were studying, were there museums studies? Did you expect to be working in a museum or to be a curator? Was that part of your career field?
Cindi: Yeah, I always wanted to work in a museum, and I wanted to work in a curatorial capacity. The Cooper Hewitt’s program at that time was geared towards museum curatorial careers. Also, a lot of people went into education. It was not geared towards working in the commercial sector. There were a handful of people who might have gone to an auction house or to a gallery, but it was focused on developing museum curators. That was something I knew I wanted and was really important to me in terms of being at the Cooper Hewitt. The program is embedded in the museum physically and has a lot of faculty from the museum and also, during my time, a lot of faculty from the Met, from the Brooklyn Museum. We had people teaching from MFA Boston, from Winterthur.
It was very much a program equally based on not only research and history and study, but on connoisseurship. Connoisseurship is essential to being a museum curator. You need to be able to delineate and understand the differences between different objects made by the same designer as well as within any larger aspect of the field. Cooper Hewitt was very much geared towards that, which was perfect for me. Because we were in the museum and we had faculty from other New York area museums, it was also possible to have internships with prominent curators from the various museums, again, moving you through this curatorial path.
The trick is always getting a job, and for me that was a lot of luck, I think. When I was in my second year, my last year of graduate school, I was working as an intern for one of the premier curators at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, particularly in late 19th-century ceramics and glass but also furniture. Her co-curator on an upcoming exhibition was my future boss at Houston. There was a job opening. Katherine Howe sent a fax, at that time, of the job description, and she handed it to me and said, “I know you still have a semester to go, but here, take a look at it.” I thought, “Well, I need to get a résumé in order. I need to start thinking about this.” I applied not thinking anything other than this is good exercise, and it obviously worked out for me.
I think in my graduating class from Cooper Hewitt—I think there were about 15 of us—there were only three of us who actually got museum jobs. A lot of it is timing because positions come open so rarely. I’m pretty sure I’m the only one from my graduating class left in a museum. It’s not for everybody, and there aren’t always jobs, but it was all I ever wanted to do. I also only wanted to work in a big institution, so Houston fit the bill for me. I love doing what I do within an encyclopedic institution, being able to contextualize, in this case, art jewelry, whether it’s historical works of art, the idea of adornment, showing it within a particular geographical context. We exhibit the jewelry not only on its own and with other contemporary craft and design, but we exhibit it next to painting, sculpture, photography, works on paper. We embed it, and that is something my colleagues are very much used to and see it as being a vital art form.
Sharon: This is a two-part Jewelry Journey podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Atty Tantivit
Atty Tantivit is a jewelry designer/maker, a gallerist and a creative entrepreneur based in Bangkok, Thailand. In 2010 Atty founded ATTA Gallery, the first and only gallery that specializes in contemporary art jewelry, aka wearable art, in Bangkok, Thailand. Since the opening of the gallery, Atty has played many roles in the field of contemporary art jewelry, both locally and internationally—a gallery director, a curator, an educator, an artist, a writer, a mentor, a collector and an advocate. She has been given an honorable award for being an inspiration and an influencer in the field of jewelry design by a Thai governmental agency and has been invited to share her experience at international symposiums.
Atty had been nominated to be one of the ten most influential creative drivers in Bangkok for the Creative Cities Project 2013, showcased at Kaohsiung Design Festival in Taiwan. She has been an active member of the steering committee for the Creative District movement in Bangrak/Klongsan area of Bangkok.
Atty is passionate about forging sustainable creative and art development in Thailand.
Additional resources:
Photos:Atty with her art and jewelry collection exhibited at the gallery in How She Collects
Exhibition of necklaces
Front of current gallery with our new logo
Front window looking at current material based art exhibition by local artist
New Gallery Space 1
Transcript:
Atty Tantavit forged a new path for art jewelry when she opened ATTA Gallery, Bangkok’s first and only art jewelry gallery, in 2010. Educating Thai customers on the history, value, and potential of art jewelry has been challenging at times, but Atty is determined to bring attention to this field and support the artists she works with. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the differences between contemporary jewelry in Thailand, Europe and North America; when she knew it was time to leave her science career for a career in jewelry; and why her customers tend to connect with the term “wearable art” instead of “art jewelry.” Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, our guest is Atty Tantivit, founder and owner of ATTA Gallery. The gallery, which was founded in 2010, is Bangkok’s only art jewelry gallery. It’s one of the few in southeast Asia. In addition, Atty has an extensive background as a maker herself. Today, we’ll hear about Atty’s own jewelry journey, both as a maker and a gallerist, and we’ll learn about her expansion plans. Atty, welcome to the program.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Atty Tantivit, founder and owner of ATTA Gallery. The gallery was founded in 2010 and is Bangkok’s only art jewelry gallery. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com.
Welcome back. Tell us about your expansion plans. Do you want to open an art gallery to go with this?
Atty: Last year was kind of tricky—well, not last year, towards the end of 2019.
Sharon: It’s so confusing, right?
Atty: Right. I’d been on vacation for a long time. At the end of 2019, we moved to a new space. It’s a much larger space. We had big plans for what we were doing. We were going to have two art galleries in one space, because I was also running a small gallery for small art pieces. But Covid hit, and my plan had to be rethought. What I also found is that my artists and our clients were confused at the fact that I had two galleries in one place. So, now I have decided to merge the two galleries. We’ll go under the name ATTA Gallery because it’s more established. We will not be focusing just on contemporary jewelry, but we will expand to cover other types of contemporary jewelry as well. Our main focus will still be on material-based art. Craft, arts and jewelry will still be the silver thread running through art curatorial plans.
One thing I found was that positioning contemporary jewelry and promoting contemporary jewelry has its own identity unit. The market was very small. It’s such a niche market that I could not reach the wider audience, but now I’m hoping to be creating dialogues between contemporary jewelry arts and surrounding arts, like photos and paintings, to lift the profile of contemporary jewelry up to the same level as other types of art, because it is art.
Sharon: Definitely, yes. There’s a question I ask; there’s no right or wrong answer, but I’m curious what you see as the difference between art jewelry and contemporary jewelry. Contemporary jewelry can often be fine, as far as I’m concerned.
Atty: I think that’s a tricky one. I remember giving a talk at Zimmerhof back in 2016 and I talked about this, what we call what we are doing. It’s confusing, because when you do a Google search and type in contemporary jewelry—
Sharon: Oh my gosh, yes!
Atty: When you type in art jewelry, a bunch of stuff comes up. Some overlap, some are totally different, and I don’t even how to call it. Sometimes I call it wearable art. That seems to be more easily understood by the local audience, because if they think “jewelry” when they come to the gallery, they won’t see what they were looking for. In Thailand, when they think about jewelry, they think about gemstones. That’s how I thought of it.
So, if they come in and think, “Where are the gems?” we don’t have that, but if they come in and I say, “These are pieces of art that can be worn,” or “They’re wearable art pieces,” they would say, “Ah, O.K.” They’re more accepting with that wording. So, I don’t know. I know that in Europe they call one thing, autonomous jewelry, contemporary jewelry.
Sharon: Yeah, there’s no hard line.
Atty: Also, it’s a problem in that when people search for the kind of jewelry they’re looking for, they don’t know what to call it. We are available, the suppliers are there, the demand is there, but supplies and demands are not matched because we can’t find each other. It’s like we live in parallel worlds in a way.
That is something that’s tricky in finding a new audience. I think the problem with the field—a lot of people talk about it—is that finding a new audience for the field is very hard, right? I think we are relying on 20 to 30 old-school collectors. The field cannot be sustainable that way. We have to find a new audience.
Sharon: Do you still make? Do you still paint? Were you a painter when you did art? I think of painting as an art.
Atty: I haven’t really made anything in quite some time because I had to move my studio out of the old space, so now I don’t have a studio. Without a studio it’s hard to create jewelry pieces, but I do create things with my hands quite often, like stitching, embroidery and little things like that. My passion is still in seeing the creative process, and, to me, the gallery is my creative project. You have to build it up. You have to see how it grows. It’s a big jewelry project in a way.
Sharon: I’m really impressed and amazed. You have taken such a big step of launching a gallery. Did you have to think about it a long time? Do you come from a family of entrepreneurs? How did that work?
Atty: My family’s been very supportive.
Sharon: Oh, that’s great.
Atty: When I decided to switch from science to jewelry, they didn’t object to it; they supported it. When I came back and wanted to open a gallery, they were supportive as well. This is my passion project. I have to tell you the truth: it hasn’t been a profitable business until now. We were on the rise. I have to tell you, Louisa Smith told me that if you want to open a gallery, you have to stick around for least seven, eight years to see the return. You can’t get out before that, and I think that’s very important. If I looked at the numbers in the first few years and if making money was my only goal, I would have closed a long time ago.
Sharon: If making money was your only goal, you probably wouldn’t have opened. I don’t meet many gallerists who don’t love it.
Atty: If people ask, “Are you planning on having the gallery for a long time?” I can’t tell, because right now, I still have passion in it. It intrigues me. I’m so interested in it, and that’s why I’m doing it. But one day if that’s gone, if something else catches my attention, I might as well close. I never know, but at this moment I think I’m still interested in it. There’s still interesting work that I want to show to the world, and I’m hoping I’ll be around for another 10 years at least.
Sharon: It seems like you have a lot of energy and passion left, a reservoir that’s going to last you a long time. Did you name the gallery after you? Why did you pick ATTA Gallery?
Atty: It’s the first two letters from my first name and my last name combined. AT for Atty, then TA. When I put the two together, it turned out to be ATTA. I like the fact that it’s reflective in a way, A-T-T-A, and just by chance there is a meaning in Thai—well, actually in Bali, which is an old Indian language. Atta means “self” or “ego,” and to me, that is something I liked.
When I work with the artist, I want the artist to express who they are through their work, without worrying about trends and whether I’ll be able to sell it. “That sells better, so I want to shift my style into that style.” I don’t want to work with artists like that. I want the artists who are true to themselves and can express themselves to the world and, at the same time, for the audience, for the customers. I want them to come in and look at the pieces, open the drawers and find their own selves through the pieces without saying, “Oh, I saw that actress wearing this piece. Do you have it?” No, because most of the pieces we work with are unique pieces. You find something that is uniquely yours in a way.
I’ve told people that when you come into the gallery, I’m not going to hard sell you, because you have to find your own soulmates. When you open the drawers, today you might not see anything you like. Three months later, you come back in. You might find something you like. Even though you might have seen it three months before, your experiences have changed, and you’ve created stories and meanings and connections with different things at different times. With wearable art pieces or art in general, you can sell to a certain degree, but the audience needs to connect to the pieces.
Sharon: The name and the fact that it means self in Bali is really interesting, because when you wear an art piece, art jewelry is about channeling yourself through it, in a sense.
Atty: We had a slogan, something we put up at the gallery, “Express your thought through contemporary art jewelry.” That’s how we want our clients to feel when they choose a piece of wearable art for themselves.
Sharon: Were you online during the last two years? Is that how you’ve sold the most?
Atty: We have been trying to stay active both onsite and online. We can’t go to fairs. We weren’t able to go to fairs and sell abroad because Thailand has been under self-lockdown in a way. People were still going out, coming to see exhibitions, but we had no tourists, and that was hard for us. Now, it’s better. We had tourists coming in and some bought pieces, so that was great, but we tried to sell online in a way. We promoted things online, art pieces through Instagram, but we don’t have an online shop per se just yet. We’re considering that for the future.
Sharon: It must be a real challenge for everybody to sell their jewelry online, but to sell art jewelry online seems like a real challenge.
Atty: It is, because these pieces need to be tried on most of the time. Unless you’ve tried it on elsewhere already and you haven’t made your decision—that’s a different story. Plus, the price points. Anything above $1,500 U.S. would be harder for people to decide without seeing the actual piece first.
With art jewelry, there are some places where you send the piece over, and they have seven days to look at the piece and return it. It’s not that easy because of the tax and import duties and everything going back and forth. There are costs accruing. It’s not working that way.
Sharon: Hopefully the world will open up more soon. I know we’re facing different variants, but hopefully we’ll get over the worst of this and can travel again.
Atty: Even onsite selling is hard because people are afraid to touch things, to try things on. We can’t really clean fragile wooden or paper pieces with alcohol sprays, so I’ve been a bit wary with them touching or trying things on.
Sharon: The artists that are local or who came initially, do you see a difference in the kind of work the Thai artists are showing you, compared to art jewelry and other work you see in the States or in Europe? Is there a different ethos?
Atty: Most of them would be more on the decorative side.
Sharon: I’m sorry; decorative stemming from the fact that they grew up around all these gems and fine jewelry?
Atty: The perception that jewelry is for decoration. It’s something to put on top of other things. It’s not something that is strong by itself. That’s the main difference I saw. I also see a lot of people working towards the fashion trends, like big pieces; not very wearable, but eye-catching, that’s for sure.
Sharon: Yeah, I do see a lot of it. When you’re talking about strong conceptual art jewelry, there are pieces you look at and go, “Oh, my gosh, O.K. It might be interesting in the picture, but I don’t know if I could ever wear it.”
Tell us more about the art gallery. How do you say the name in English?
Atty: It was called ATTA because the other gallery I opened in 2019 was called ATTA ‘N’ ATTA, but everything is going to be called ATTA Gallery now, so there’s no more confusion.
Sharon: So, it’s going to be one gallery.
Atty: Just one, and it’s going to be named ATTA. We modified our logo to signify the change. The message is about redirecting and refocusing the gallery.
Sharon: Did you already have artists in mind? Were there artists you had in the back room you thought you were going to show when you first opened? How did that work?
Atty: I started with my jewelry artists first. Last year, we had to postpone several exhibitions because of Covid. So, I started with them, looking at the kind of work they would be presenting. Then I looked for a local artist or other types of artists whose works would complement and have dialogues with their works. The upcoming exhibition supposedly opening next week—we’re still keeping our fingers crossed if we can open because we have artists from Denmark, Art Jewelry Copenhagen—
Sharon: Oh, wow!
Atty: Yeah. They were supposed to be opening an exhibition on the 15th but right now, I’m not sure if they can come to Thailand for this project.
Sharon: Covid’s everywhere, yeah.
Atty: It’s done by nine Danish artists, and it talks about collaboration, having strong collaborative efforts as part of their Danish culture. From looking through the groups of work, it includes different materials, different techniques. It’s very interesting. After I confirmed their exhibitions, I had to look for a local artist to have exhibitions side by side.
I found a local artist who I have been following for a while. He’s a painter. He creates objects out of normal, everyday objects, but then he creates something different with his abstract paintings and the objects. So, in a way, he is collaborating with local craftsmen in changing what they created into something else. The two ideas match, so I thought it would be a good opportunity to put the two exhibitions on at the same time, to create the same conversation with different results. That’s what I’m hoping to be doing for the rest of the curatorial programs.
Sharon: I hope you get to open because it sounds very interesting. These artists who are doing things other than jewelry, do they find you? Are they sending you photos, or are you just looking around?
Atty: At the moment, I’m looking around and I’m reaching out to people I’m interested in. I haven’t really announced the change in direction publicly yet, so once I do that, we’ll do calls for artists or calls for portfolios for the artists to work with. But at the moment, I’m trying to look for artists I’m interested in first, for the first year, anyway. In that sense, if I already know the artist, it’s easier to work with.
Sharon: Yeah, I’m sure those pave the way. What do people say when you’re at a dinner party and they ask what you do, and you tell them? What’s the reaction when you say you have an art jewelry gallery, that you have this kind of gallery?
Atty: At first, when I say I have a gallery, they say, “Ah, so you sell paintings.” That’s the normal expectation. When people think about art, they still think about two-dimensional art pieces: paintings, drawings, to a lesser extent photos. Sculpture is something that is becoming more popular, but it’s still not a big thing that people consider bringing into their houses because it’s hard to display. Contemporary jewelry or wearable art pieces are like small sculptures, so they’re harder for people to get and bring into the house. When I tell them I sell contemporary jewelry, I have to show them images from Instagram, because they have no idea what it’s about.
Sharon: Are they thinking typical fine jewelry? When I think of jewelry in Thailand—I’ve never been—I think of rows and rows of gold chains.
Atty: I think the word “gallery” prompts them to think more about art rather than jewelry, so when I say “art gallery,” they think art first. When I say, “Yeah, but I don’t work with paintings. I work with jewelry,” they say, “Huh? How?” I pull out my phone and say, “O.K., let me show you.” I might be wearing a piece. I would point to my brooch: “This is something I sell at the gallery.”
Sharon: Do you find when you wear pieces, the ones you like or the ones that stand out, that people approach you? Are they saying, “Oh yes, fabulous”?
Atty: Yes, they approach me, but most of the time they say, “It looks good on you, but I don’t think I can pull it off.”
Sharon: And what’s your response to that?
Atty: You never know until you try it on. You have to try it on. One experience I found very refreshing was when I wore a necklace by David Bielander. It’s a sausage; it’s a frankfurter. I wore it to a jazz bar late at night. I went in and saw waitresses whispering. After a while, one approached me and said, “I’m sorry, but you’re not allowed to bring food in from outside.” She was joking, and that was brilliant.
Sharon: I think it would take guts to wear a piece like that. I can see wearing one of his pieces, the ear of corn piece, something like that. Do you see a connection between your science background and jewelry? What’s the connection or influence you see?
Atty: I decided to study environmental science because—this sounds silly—I wanted to save the world. As you know, at that point in time, 1994, greenhouse gas and climate change was grabbing our attention. I thought, “O.K., if I go into environmental science, I can help save the world.” When I went on to study living science, I wanted to save the trees.
I see that, with what I’m doing now, I’m saving this kind of art practice. I’m saving the artist. It’s not the subject matter that is the same, but my feeling of doing something that is not just for me, but for other people. It’s like I’m supporting the artist; I’m supporting the field; I’m bringing attention to the field. I think that’s relatable in that sense. It’s not about the subject of science.
Sharon: Did you like science? Did you feel like you were going against yourself, or did you like science?
Atty: It varied. I liked to watch it, the processing. I still think that with my business, if I didn’t have the science background or the math background, I don’t think I’d be able to run it. Running a business is not like creating art because you need more logic. You need to be able to prioritize things and understand the management side of it. It’s more science-based in a way. It’s not purely emotional.
Sharon: Right, it’s more disciplined in a sense.
Atty: Having the skills to use Excel is really helpful also, because having a gallery, there’s a lot about recordkeeping. It’s not just about selecting good works and selling or showing good work. There’s a lot of recordkeeping. There’s a lot of back-office stuff that I think my skills in math and science help with.
Sharon: Did you know there would be that? People look at what’s on the walls and say, “Oh, this would be so much fun,” but it’s a business. Did you know about that or think about that before?
Atty: We’re trying to find better ways of keeping records and communicating with artists. Every day is a new day in the learning process. What we did 10 years ago with the software—software has developed, and we have to move forward with that and many things. We can’t just stay still. There is much that I like about this field, and that’s one thing. People will say, “Why don’t you sell paintings?” It’s not challenging. Other people are selling paintings already. I want to do something that is challenging because it’s more rewarding to me.
Sharon: It goes along with wanting to save the world. It’s carving out your own passion and area, not just following in somebody’s footsteps. You didn’t go into science because you thought, “Oh, I love that snail, that marine snail, that sea snail.”
Atty: I didn’t go into science for science’s sake in that sense, yeah.
Sharon: Yeah, I was just wondering. If I was going to be a CPA, that’s not me. This is very interesting. Once again, I give you a lot of credit for opening a gallery and opening it in a challenging area. Having family support is so important, but it’s challenging in terms of the environment, in terms of having to educate other people when it’s such a new idea to them. I give you a lot of credit for doing that.
Thank you so much for being with us today and telling us about it. I do hope I get to Thailand for a lot of reasons. I heard it’s a great place, but I’d love to visit Bangkok and see your gallery. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Atty: Thank you so much. I really had a good time.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Atty Tantivit
Atty Tantivit is a jewelry designer/maker, a gallerist and a creative entrepreneur based in Bangkok, Thailand. In 2010 Atty founded ATTA Gallery, the first and only gallery that specializes in contemporary art jewelry, aka wearable art, in Bangkok, Thailand. Since the opening of the gallery, Atty has played many roles in the field of contemporary art jewelry, both locally and internationally—a gallery director, a curator, an educator, an artist, a writer, a mentor, a collector and an advocate. She has been given an honorable award for being an inspiration and an influencer in the field of jewelry design by a Thai governmental agency and has been invited to share her experience at international symposiums.
Atty had been nominated to be one of the ten most influential creative drivers in Bangkok for the Creative Cities Project 2013, showcased at Kaohsiung Design Festival in Taiwan. She has been an active member of the steering committee for the Creative District movement in Bangrak/Klongsan area of Bangkok.
Atty is passionate about forging sustainable creative and art development in Thailand.
Additional resources:
Transcript:
Atty Tantavit forged a new path for art jewelry when she opened ATTA Gallery, Bangkok’s first and only art jewelry gallery, in 2010. Educating Thai customers on the history, value, and potential of art jewelry has been challenging at times, but Atty is determined to bring attention to this field and support the artists she works with. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the differences between contemporary jewelry in Thailand, Europe and North America; when she knew it was time to leave her science career for a career in jewelry; and why her customers tend to connect with the term “wearable art” instead of “art jewelry.” Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
Today, our guest is Atty Tantivit, founder and owner of ATTA Gallery. The gallery, which was founded in 2010, is Bangkok’s only art jewelry gallery. It’s one of the few in southeast Asia. In addition, Atty has an extensive background as a maker herself. Today, we’ll hear about Atty’s own jewelry journey, both as a maker and a gallerist, and we’ll learn about her expansion plans. Atty, welcome to the program.
Atty: It’s my pleasure to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you play with it when you were young, or did you come from an artistic family?
Atty: I grew up being the only girl in the family, and I loved jewelry growing up. I collected trinkets, like little plastic earrings here and there. When I travel, I collect bracelets made of little gemstones. I was always fascinated by jewelry growing up. I think that was instilled in me when I was young by my mom because I was the only girl in the family. She was telling me how to love jewelry, teaching me how to do it.
I remember for one my classes we had to make works out of paper, and my mom taught me how to make paper beads out of magazine paper. That was my first experience making so-called jewelry, and I loved it. I also loved art, but in Thailand, even if you excel in the arts, if you can do science—back in the day, teachers and parents encouraged their kids to stay in science, so as I was approaching my high school and college years, I decided to pursue a career in science over art.
Sharon: After you graduated, did you work in science for a while?
Atty: Yes, I studied environmental science in the U.S. and I went onto receive my master’s in marine resource management in Miami. I worked in the field for a few years before deciding to switch gears and change fields.
Sharon: What happened? How did the change happen?
Atty: It happened slowly, really, because even though I was in the science field, I kept my interest in arts alive by taking classes. I was still collecting jewelry in college. My college town was in the middle of nowhere, in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, and on the drive from Lewisburg to the nearest airport, there’s a Native American outpost. I would stop there every so often to find myself Native American necklaces. Those were my passion back then.
When I went down to Miami, I found a small gallery shop there and bought what I called my first contemporary jewelry art piece. That’s how I got interested in jewelry. In college, I also took an evening class called “How to Make a Ring,” I believe. I made a ring, and it was a very inspirational experience because I had a plan in my head; I had a vision of the ring I wanted to make, and I was able to make it. To see an idea come into reality with my own head, that was amazing.
Sharon: Did you come to the States to study science?
Atty: Yes.
Sharon: But eventually you went to the Gemological Institute of America, GIA.
Atty: Right. After I received my master’s and started working in Miami, I found a workshop to learn how to make jewelry more in depth during the week. I started taking that and soon after, I found that was what kept me going during the week. Rather than going to work, I would say, “O.K., when am I going to this workshop? What am I going to make next?” I started making beaded jewelry, and I sold it at a small shop in Miami. In a way, it was like art was knocking on my door again after a long time of being in hibernation.
I was in the process of applying for a Ph.D. program. I needed to take some more tests and rethink my thesis, and during that time, I ran into a problem with my visa. I was on the wrong kind of visa, so, in order to apply for my Ph.D. programs, I would need to come back to Thailand for a year and then go back to study again. I was like, “I don’t know. If I come back home for a year and do nothing related to science, I don’t know if my fire will still be on. It might be extinguished by then.” I thought to myself, “Maybe the universe is telling me it’s time to look at other things.” So, I took the big step of leaving my career in science and started to do something with jewelry. Coming from Thailand, growing up, the only kind of jewelry I knew was fine jewelry with gems. That’s why I decided to go to GIA, because if you want to work with jewelry, you have to know about gems. So, that’s how I got started.
Sharon: Before you went to GIA and started doing your jewelry, did you find that you had a desire to know about gems at all?
Atty: I didn’t collect gems, but little stones and specimens when I was growing up. In college, I actually loved geology.
Sharon: Which campus did you go to for GIA?
Atty: Carlsbad.
Sharon: It’s a beautiful college. Carlsbad is a beautiful campus.
Atty: Yes, I loved it.
Sharon: Yeah, it’s gorgeous. There are not that many people involved in the world of art jewelry who know much about gemology. They may work with stones, but they aren’t gemologists; they’re not GGs, graduate gemologists—is that the diploma?
Atty: Yes.
Sharon: How does that influence what you do or how you evaluate things?
Atty: I don’t see my gemology experience interfering or hindering me from looking at contemporary jewelry—let’s put it that way—because I think you can’t really compare the two. They are both good and they have their own values. They’re complementary in some cases, and I think that’s how I approach the field.
Sharon: No, not that it would have a negative influence—I guess I rarely meet anybody who is involved in art jewelry who knows gems the way you do, so I was wondering how it impacted how you look at things. If it’s a piece of art jewelry, even if it’s made of paper, if there’s any—perhaps the crystalized shape of the paper—I don’t know.
Atty: Right, a few artists work with the shape of diamonds, different cuts and things, and that’s very interesting to see. You capture the intrinsic value of the gems in terms of the form rather than the gems themselves. That was interesting. At the beginning, here in Thailand, when I opened the gallery, we had works by a local artist who made wood into the forms of diamond rings. We had a local come in and say, “Where is the actual diamond? A diamond isn’t in this ring; it’s just wood cut into the shape of a diamond.”
Sharon: That’s interesting, especially in a culture where you’re surrounded by a lot of gems and fine jewelry, because it seems like that might strike you hard as opposed to somebody who sees more of that. When did you come back to Bangkok? Right after you finished your gemology diploma?
Atty: I finished the GG in 2003. After that, I wanted to learn about jewelry making. Because I was having problems getting a visa in the U.S., I decided to go elsewhere. I went to Italy and joined a small workshop run by an Italian and a New Zealand guy. I did that for six months and learned a little about design there as well. After that, I went back to the U.S. to the Revere Academy of Jewelry Arts and studied with Ellen Revere for their intensive program. That was really helpful. After that, I came back to Thailand towards the end of 2005 and started setting up my own studio.
Sharon: Did you have the idea in your head that you wanted to have a gallery?
Atty: When I was in Miami, I told you I found a small gallery that sells various things, including contemporary jewelry. I thought to myself, “It would be perfect if I could have a store like this, selling work from all over the world.” That was in the back of my mind, but at that point in time I enjoyed making, so I thought I would make. I wasn’t thinking about opening a business, but when I came back to Thailand, I found out that practicing as an artist-designer without having a storefront or a knowledgeable person to tell the clients about what it entails, why a piece of wooden jewelry is more expensive than a piece of silver jewelry—if you don’t have anything like that, it’s not going to work. That’s why I decided it would be a good opportunity for me to open a gallery: to help myself and help others who are struggling with the same problem.
Sharon: That’s such a huge step, to open your own shop. Did you have a problem finding other people whose work you could show?
Atty: Yeah, at the beginning when I decided to open the gallery, I went back to Italy for the second time and studied at Alchimia for two months—
Sharon: Alchimia the school?
Atty: The contemporary jewelry school. I wanted to understand more about conceptual jewelry and what contemporary jewelry in Europe is all about. I spent most of my time in the U.S., but not in Europe, so I wanted to know more about it. During that time, I visited Schmuck and other galleries in the Netherlands—
Sharon: Schmuck being the art jewelry fair.
Atty: Right.
Sharon: There will be a lot more on that, but yes, O.K.
Atty: I started to connect with artists there. I also visited Louisa Smith Gallery towards the end of their business. I told Louisa I was inspired to have a gallery in Thailand, and she was very helpful guiding me. She said, “O.K., if you want to do this, this is a good artist to work with.” She was helping me start, so that was very helpful.
Sharon: I’m not familiar with her. She had a gallery, and she was closing. Where was she located?
Atty: It’s in Amsterdam.
Sharon: O.K., to have somebody you can turn to and get advice.
Atty: Just by chance, I went in as a young student and bought my first piece there by Bedanya Kessler.
Sharon: Bedanya Kessler the art jeweler, yeah.
Atty: She started sharing her passion with me. I was very inspired to see people who have been in the field for a long time and still have the passion to do what they do.
Sharon: When you approached people she pointed out, did they say, “Who are you? Where are you?”
Atty: Let’s look back a little bit. When I first started, I approached local artists for support as well. The decision to open the gallery came after I met two people who were instrumental in having the gallery open. One is an artist called Ruby Benzarin. I met her at Alchimia. She was a TA. She’s from Thailand, but she was working at Alchimia after she graduated. We met there, and she moved back to Thailand just about the same I started thinking about opening up a gallery.
Another person is an artist who was teaching in the U.S. in San Diego and just returned to Thailand at about the same time. His name is Towissa Manserrat.
Sharon: I won’t try to pronounce that name.
Atty: We met up. Towisa was teaching in a university, and Ruby was thinking about opening a school for contemporary jewelry art more for hobbyists and non-official students. The three of us got together and I was like, “O.K., let’s do this. I’ll promote contemporary jewelry art to the general public. Towissa would work in the formal education areas, and Ruby would work on the informal education side.” So, the three of us would try to lift up the profile of contemporary jewelry arts in Thailand. That was why we opened the gallery.
At the beginning, I got support from local artists. At that point in time, it was rather new. People didn’t really know what contemporary jewelry is all about, so I worked with about 11 Thai artists to begin with and some young artists in Europe I met through fairs and what not. Surprisingly, some big-name artists also approached me to have exhibitions at the gallery.
Sharon: Wow!
Atty: Yeah, I was surprised.
Sharon: They probably saw this as an opportunity to be in an area of the world where nothing had been happening.
Atty: Right. For me, it was intriguing to be approached by artists. I thought galleries would have to be doing all the work of approaching artists, but reality is the other way around.
Sharon: Wow! Do you still have those partners you started with?
Atty: I still represent Ruby as an artist at the gallery. She still has her jewelry school. Towissa quit his job in the university. He has shifted his focus to performance arts now, so I haven’t been working with him for two years now.
Sharon: I’m curious, because you mentioned conceptual jewelry in Europe versus the U.S. In your eyes, from your perception, what was the difference? I’d be curious to hear.
Atty: Nowadays they’re getting closer together. When I first started, it was quite different. In Europe, they’re more into new materials, non-precious materials. In the U.S., I think it’s still more craft-based with metal. That’s the one thing I noticed. The wearability is a bit different also. In the U.S., more wearable pieces would be better. In Europe, there are very large, avant-garde pieces that attract more attention.
Sharon: That’s interesting. In reading about your philosophy and your gallery, you mentioned you look for strong, conceptual work. What does that mean to you?
Atty: In Thailand, we have a strong tradition of decoration and ornamenting. That is something we see quite a bit here in Thailand, so I want to step away from that. I’m hoping to work with artists who have created their pieces based on their ideas and concepts rather than on visual cues or decorative ideas. That’s why I said more conceptual.
Sharon: Do you mean more conceptual as in you haven’t seen it before, or it’s not derivative?
Atty: It’s not like I haven’t seen it before, but it’s more that the integration of the ideas and the execution of the pieces go together well. The idea could be very fluffy, out in the air, very conceptual in that sense, but if the artist can capture that idea and translate it into their pieces well, I think that is what catches my attention rather than seeing something visually pleasing, but there are no strong ideas behind it. I’m more interested in the two sides, the concept and the craftsmanship, rather than just the craftsmanship alone.
Sharon: You opened the gallery in 2010. Have you seen an increase in awareness and educational interest in art jewelry in Thailand over the years?
Atty: Definitely, yeah. It’s not a big jump. So many people are more aware of it, but that doesn’t mean it translates into sales.
Sharon: Yes, that’s a problem. A lot of your stuff is on Etsy, but it doesn’t mean they’ll buy it. How about art jewelry in general? You mentioned that you saw growth in the market. I was surprised, because I’ve heard a lot of art jewelers say “It’s flat,” or “It’s going nowhere.” So, I was interested in that.
Atty: I think in the markets where the field has been developed and established for 30, 40 years, they might have seen that trend going on, but in Thailand, it’s a very new market. We’ve been open for 11 years, 12 years, something like that, so it’s still considered fresh in our audience’s mind. I think that’s one reason why artists are more interested in going away from the centers, going to South America, going to other parts of the world, to Asia, because the market is still untapped in a way.
Sharon: Yeah, there’s a lot of potential everywhere, but I suppose there’s a lot in areas where it’s just been introduced in the last decade or so.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About matt lambert
matt lambert is a non-binary, trans, multidisciplinary collaborator and co-conspirator working towards equity, inclusion, and reparation. They are a founder and facilitator of The Fulcrum Project and currently are a PhD student between Konstfack and University of Gothenburg in Sweden. They hold a MA in Critical Craft Studies from Warren Wilson College and an MFA in Metalsmithing from Cranbrook Academy of Art.
lambert currently is based in Stockholm Sweden and was born in Detroit MI, US where they still maintain a studio. They have exhibited work nationally and internationally including at: Turner Contemporary, Margate, Uk, ArkDes, and Sven-Harrys Konstmuseum, Stockholm, Sweden, Museo de la Ciudad, Valencia , Spain and Walker Art Center, Minneapolis, MN, US. Lambert represented the U.S in Triple Parade at HOW Museum, Shanghai, China, represented the best of craft in Norway during Salon del Mobile, Milan, Italy and was the invited feature at the Benaki Museum, Athens, Greece during Athens Jewelry Week. Lambert has actively contributed writing to Art Jewelry Forum, Garland, Metalsmith Magazine, Klimt02, Norwegian Craft and the Athens Jewelry Week catalogues and maintains a running column titled “Settings and Findings” in Lost in Jewelry Magazine.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Brooches
2019
Made in collaboration with Maret Anna Sara
Image credit: Talya Kantro
https://maretannesara.com/pile-power/
Pile Power is a new, elaborative section of Máret Ánne Saras bigger body of work: Pile O ?Sápmi. The project has developed into a multi prong exploration using the remaining material from Sara´s Pile O’ Sápmi as shown in Documenta 14. Sara invited matt lambert to enter a dialogue with the intent for finding methods to use all available material that was remaining from earlier pieces. Matt Lambert is recognized through international exhibitions in platforms such as craft, jewelery, performance, design, sculpture and fashion, and has been listed on the top 100 designers for jewelry and accessories by the Global Jewelry and Accessories Council as well as receiving the Next Generation Award from Surface Design Association. Sara invited Lambert to collaborate using the materials remaining from the Pile O´ Sápmi project after finding a connection through a conviction for socio-cultural sustainability as well as minority comradery between indigeneity and queerness. The Pile Power collaboration is producing larger performative objects using the remaining jaws of the reindeer skulls used in Saras earlier work, as well as more wearable works from the remaining reindeer-porcelain skulls that Sara commissioned to her Pile O’ Sápmi Powernecklace shown at Documenta 14. Both of these veins of working promote the conversation around sustainable practices of indigenous peoples. In Pile Power, body and material form a new basis for approach for themes addressed in the Pile O ?Sápmi project. Based on creative dialogue, a thematic jewelry collection will nomadically carry a new segment of an urgent discourse through bodies and humans.
the integumentary system as dialogical fashion
installed at IASPIS Stockholm Sweden 2017
8 x 5.5 x 3 feet
Comprised of 15 wearable objects
temporal drag only accepting gaudy currency, saving for kitsch omega and sugar free nirvana
installed at IASPIS Stockholm Sweden 2017
10 x 5.5 x 2.5 feet
Comprised of 55 wearable objects
Tools of Ignorance
As installed at Pried
The Society of Arts + Crafts
Boston MA USA, 2019
Transcript:
matt lambert doesn’t just want us to wear jewelry—they want us to question it. As a maker, writer, and Ph.D. student, matt spends much of their time thinking about why we wear jewelry, who makes it, and what happens to jewelry as it’s passed from person to person. They joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the inspirations behind their work, why jewelry carries layers of meaning, and why wearing jewelry (or not wearing it) is always a political act. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is the second part of a two-part episode. Today, my guest is Matt Lambert, who is joining us from Stockholm. Matt is a maker, writer and performer currently pursuing a Ph.D. Matt’s jewelry journey has taken them from country to country. If you haven’t heard part one, please go to TheJewelryJourney.com. Welcome back.
You’re still making though, right?
matt: I am. I am definitely still making. It has not left my bones. It will probably never leave my bones, but it is something I constantly question, like what does it mean to make? What are we making?
Sharon: Do you think about where you’re making your jewelry? Like you were just in a show in Finland.
matt: Those objects also push an interesting thing into play. I was having some hand problems because of Covid. I sleep in a very precarious position for my hands, and I was losing feeling in my right hand because I have an anxiety disorder. When I’m stressed, I basically ball up my hand, and I was pinching a nerve. I was thinking about Covid, the spike in the Black Lives Matter Movement, so many other incredible layers of politics and body awareness and attempts to consciously raise our awareness of what’s going on in the world. So, I started a dialogue with someone who’s trained in a lot of work but specifically in box making, which is a totally different skillset.
We share knowledge of material, and I cast my hands in different gestures of resistance or solidarity. There are three that are new, which is the fist for resistance, the peace sign, and the opening/offering hand. I cast them, and I worked with the box maker to make jewelry boxes for my hands that are actually wearable on my hands. There’s a hole, and I can buckle a box around my hand. A lot of my work questions what jewelry is. Is this jewelry? Is my hand the jewel, or is the box that’s worn around my hand the jewel? I’m interrogating what a piece of jewelry is or what could it be.
I also spoke at KORU7, the Finnish jewelry triennial, which was very meaningful to show and speak at because that’s the first place I ever went outside of North America. I told myself, “I’m going to be here one day,” and I got into the exhibition, so that was very emotional. Then they sent me an invite to ask if I would speak, and that was a proud moment. These are milestones in my career, and I have gratitude for the invitations. They mean something in that way of feeling herd, or at least wanting to be listened to for a moment.
Sharon: I saw the boxes on Instagram, and I thought, “Oh, those are beautiful boxes,” but I was going, “O.K., do you stick your hand in them or wear them around? What do you do with them?” The leather was beautiful. I thought, “Wow, gorgeous purse!”
matt: Those are probably more theoretical and abstract works in jewelry, but it’s questioning self-care and preservation. When we make gestures, when we show someone the peace sign or we have the fist of resistance or we offer someone something, do we mean it? Are we trying to freeze it in time? When does a gesture become shallow? It becomes commodified. Through jewelry, when you just consume it, when does our body also become that? It was me saying, “Hey, jewelry can talk about this,” and a lot of my work now is saying jewelry can do this.
I call it a not-so-solo show that will be going up in the spring at Bornholm, which is a craft center on an island that is technically Danish. It’s between Denmark and Germany. I’ll have a larger solo show, but it’s a not-so-solo show. It will talk about the different collaborations I have with Masada, who’s indigenous, Sámi. Our work is talking about the rights of indigenous people, and there will be new collaborations: one set I’ve already been doing, one of the hand boxes will be there as well, and the work I do with the choreographer Carl Berg.
It’s me playing with the elasticity of what jewelry is. There’s always some sort of wearable thing, but then it’s like, is that the work? Is it a marker of the work? Does it represent my research? Is it a token of that? Is it a souvenir? It’s also challenging you as the wearer. When you wear my work, to me, you’re also carrying what I stand for, what I believe in or what I’m doing, so we share something together. When people ask, it gives you an opportunity to share the possibility of jewelry, and that’s also what I love. When you wear my necklace, I want to know what you tell people. The best part is when I’m with people and someone goes, “What do you do?” at a dinner party, and whoever I’m with that knows me usually loves looking at that person. They go, “What do I do?”
Sharon: That’s not an easy question to answer. What do you say?
matt: I don’t. I literally look at the person next to me. I go, “What do I do?” And I love the multiplicity because my work exists. I teach now. I write. I will be announcing being an editor for publications. There are always 12 projects. I make wearables. I make unwearables. I work with dancers. I work with choreographers, so I’m a performer now. There isn’t an easy way, and that’s a challenge under capitalism. We want to define people by what they do, especially in a U.S. context. It’s not super common in Europe to be defined by what you do as it is in the U.S., so it’s challenging. I’m just me. I exist. That comes with its own set of consequences, but you’re talking about someone who wants to know. It’s also a very liberating space to be in.
Sharon: Yes, I can see how it would be the most satisfying answer if I’m asking what you do at a party. Let me ask you this, because you mentioned Lost in Jewelry Magazine. Is that only an online publication?
matt: Yes, that came out through Day By Day, which is a gallery in Rome. She approached me because she comes from a design background and has graphic design experience, and she discovered jewelry and became an addict like me. I think some people find it and it’s like the back of your head falls off, and you want to read as many books and info and see everything you can. I see you at all these events too, and there’s always something to learn. She wrote me and said, “Hey, you have a voice. What do you want to do with it? Could I give you space, and what would it look like?” So, I proposed a running column called Settings and Findings.
Sharon: What did you mean by that, Settings and Findings?
matt: It’s a play on words. There are categories if you go to purchase materials for jewelry. A setting is what usually would hold a stone, but it’s word play. You have a table setting. What are you holding on to? What are you making space for? And a finding is a component in jewelry, but it’s also what you’re discovering. I write about different people that have different projects. I like research projects, collaborations or specific bodies of work, looking at things that aren’t in the main canon. I often give people a space to say, “What are you setting and finding for this particular moment or for this project?” It’s a way to also show that we are doing artistic research, whether we’re aware of it or we frame it as that or not. It’s become a tool for me to see how different people talk about their research.
There are some coming up that are poems. Some people have written beautiful, long things, or sometimes I help them write it. It’s finding that balance, since not everybody writes, but it’s working with and taking time with someone or a group of people to talk about research in the field, about using the word research. It’s a thing to point to in my Ph.D. as well. It’s an investigative tool. Normally when you do academia, you do what’s called literature review. You say what exists in the books. It’s a way for me to say, “This is research that already exists. This is stuff that’s happening.” I’m not alone in this and people might not contextualize it in an academic way, but I’m using my position to contextualize in that way if they aren’t. I’m putting it in a space so they can say, “This is research. We don’t need academia to do research as jewelers, but we could frame it as that.”
Sharon: I can understand the settings and what are you holding onto. The findings are what you’re finding out about yourself or the pieces you’re making?
matt: Really, whatever you want. I think there’s one article up by Viviana Langhoff who writes jewelry and adornment theory. She wrote a very beautiful, more poetic piece of writing about settings. She has built a platform to talk about equity and inclusion for diversity in the field, both in fine jewelry and in art jewelry, and she mixes the two in her space. She has a gallery in Chicago. The findings are about what you find when you do that. What is happening because you’re doing that? What are you discovering or what have you discovered through your work? She’s somebody who has created a space. So, what happens? How does the community respond? Who comes into that? If it’s an individual person, what have you learned by making this work? Where are you at now? You did this. You felt the urge. What are you holding onto?
Your finding is what you find out there, where the setting is or what you could share. It’s purposely ambiguous because it’s to invite commercial jewelers and groups and galleries and spaces and art jewelers to share a space. There are some coming up where it’s like four sentences, and then there are people that have written me an essay. That’s what I think is beautiful, that we all can exist together in this one location.
Sharon: It’s interesting. As I said, I hadn’t ever seen it before, Lost in Jewelry. Let me ask you this, because in introducing you or when you were writing the introduction, I need a translation of this. You’re described as a nonbinary trans collaborator and co-conspirator working towards inclusion, equity and reparation. I don’t know that means, I must say.
matt: Yes, my body, as I identify, I am white; I am part of the colonial imperial system in that way. I identify as nonbinary, which is under the trans umbrella, as in transgender. Primarily, from where my body stands, I don’t believe in the gender construction. Like I said, my original background is in human sexuality and the psychology of it. It’s not a conversation I’m interested in defining, which then leaks into jewelry and gender and who wears jewelry. As we’re talking, that’s probably a big reason why jewelry also interests me. Co-conspirator and collaborator—
Sharon: I get collaborator. Co-conspirator—
matt: Co-conspirator, I’m interested in working with people that have goals or missions or focuses that are towards equity and decolonizing. I’m for reparations, and so I work, like I already mentioned, in the fight for indigenous rights in Scandinavia and Norway. The co-conspirator, that’s a goal. It’s conspiring to say, “This is what we need to do.” I’m on the equity train, and people that are seeking to find that and use jewelry as a vehicle, I want to co-conspire with those people to figure out what projects need to happen, what happenings need to happen to do that. I want to see jewelry do that, and I want to selfishly keep it in jewelry and see what happens when we do that through jewelry, because I think it’s where the potential is. I think jewelry’s the best from where I sit, and with my knowledge of these things, I want to see that happen.
One of the other pieces for Settings and Findings is by SaraBeth Post, who’s a Penland resident in glass who is making necklaces out of simple glass pendants, but she was auctioning them off to raise funds for certain court cases or for other notable movements within Black Lives Matter. That’s a way of using more commercially-driven, wearable work to move to a different area. There are so many incredible ways to use jewelry. It disrupts and it challenges, and that’s why I’m excited about jewelry.
Sharon: Do you think everything you’re saying about jewelry and how it affects people, the connections—the mining and the metal and all that—do you think it’s more accepted where you are in Europe? Are you in an environment where people talk about this, or do people look at you like, “What are you talking about?”
matt: The United States, as far as talk about equity and those conversations, is very ahead of where it is, but that’s also because the U.S. is founded on imperialism and slavery, so it has no mechanism of denial. There are places in Europe that have that, and there are other places that do not. So, yes and no would be the answer. It depends on whom I’m speaking with or where we’re at. It is challenging because in the U.S., these are more contemporary conversations than we’re having where I’m based now in Sweden.
They also exist differently because their history and involvement in colonialism and imperialism is different. It exists. That’s actually what I wrote my thesis on for my critical craft master’s. I was looking at examinations of the history museum in Sweden and representation within it. It’s a different conversation, so that’s been a challenge, but it’s a great learning experience for me because not everybody has the same knowledge. I think these conversations add an academic level. You see jewelry in a room and academics are like, “Wait, what? You want to play with jewelry?” Sometimes I find myself in this weird gray space, because you’re fighting a different wave, like, “Yes, let’s do this.” How do you make it make sense for everybody?
I’m excited to see more people do what they love to expand the field so all of us can home in on exactly what we love doing. But it is a challenge right now because the conversations, there’s a lot of potential we could say in them. They’ve been going on, but I think there’s still a lot of potential. I think that’s the amazing thing with this idea around jewelry. Is it a field? Is it a format? What is it? What can we do with it?
Sharon: As you’re making things, are you thinking about how you can express some of this through what you’re making? I’m thinking about the laser-cut leather necklace. To me, it’s a fabulous necklace. That’s why I say I’m fairly shallow. It’s a fabulous necklace; I don’t look at it and go, “What does it mean in terms of equity?” Do you think about those things? Are you trying to express these things through your jewelry?
matt: I think I’m more in the camp of my body lives, breaths, eats and sleeps this, so whatever I make, it’s already going to be there. I don’t make things with the idea of “This going to be about this.” It’s more of, “What do I feel in my body and is this going back to being a craftsperson?”
Sharon: You’re saying that because of who you are and because it’s what you live and breathe, it’s in your jewelry. You don’t have to say, “Oh, I think if I braid the leather this way, it means A, B, C.”
matt: Yeah, no. I think there’s a lot of talk in the world now about being authentic and living your authentic life and going down those rabbit holes, but I think there are many different ways to be a craftsperson. I think you could love a material and use it throughout your whole life; I think there could be people that can stretch across them. I think we need everybody to sustain and talk about it as a field. I have a deep concern about jewelry being a field and how we continue that. I think how we broaden that is the biggest thing, not coming from a point of scarcity.
I’m at a point in my career where I trust my body. It’s the same as trusting your gut. Also, sometimes, it just makes you feel good. There’s nothing wrong with art if it just makes you feel good. When I made that leatherwork, I knew nothing about computers. I had briefly worked and tried to be a woodworker. It was not for me. I like my fingers. I don’t like getting up at 4 a.m. I tried to work for a prestigious cabinet making company. I have a lot of respect for woodworkers; it’s just not a frame of craft that I can make or produce in.
When I went to Cranbrook, they were like, “Oh great, you can go work in the woodshop then.” I worked in the library—you know me; I read everything—which I loved, but then they were like, “Great, woodshop,” and I was like, “Oh, O.K.” and then they were like, “You’re going to be the laser cutting technician.” I’ve made it a point in my whole career to use things that don’t plug in. I grew up half my life in the woods where the power went out easily, and I wanted to be able to make my work without an electrical cord. So, that was a challenge, but that series also developed.
I was sitting there and thinking about the simple sash chain you get at the hardware store. It’s like one-on-one aluminum link, a very affordable, cheap, go-to chain, and then my brain was like, “What if I tweak it and do this and this?” If you look at the leather, it’s not mathematically proportionate; it’s hand-drawn. It comes from that. Then I was speaking to friends and all of a sudden, it was like, “This is what it could mean.” You see meanings after you do it when it’s done.
What I also love about that work is that I can’t tell you how long it takes, because those pieces are family for me. I would lay out patterns, and then I would buy everybody pizza and beer and call my friends and I would prepare them. They have to be soaked in certain things, and other things we were figuring out the best way to weave. Everyone would sit around in a circle and weave necklaces. For me, it’s about family and community and the linking of things. That’s for me, but if you like my work because of something else, there is nothing wrong with that.
That’s the research I’m interested in now. It matters why we make, but it also matters why we wear and why we buy. How do we talk about all of that together? That is what I think of as the work. As craftspeople, yeah, the work is the object we make, but even after we die, the work continues. How do we think about or frame what it means to you, then, to wear my necklace, and what do you get out of it? What fulfills you could be totally different than what I do, but that adds to what the work is.
I think my jewelry is so beautiful because it could have this life. After you wear it, what happens to it? Does somebody else wear it? Do you give it to somebody? That adds another stratum of meaning, so over time, you continuously compress different meanings. Even if it goes behind a museum case—I’m not saying my work will do that—but when people’s work goes behind a museum case, when you see it and when a five-year-old sees it versus a 70-year-old, versus someone from one country and another, that’s another meaning: how they relate to it, how they could think of themselves wearing it, what they think it’s about. It just piles more and more meaning.
It all goes back to someone’s body, not the body or a body, but all of our bodies. So, all of a sudden, you have objects that have this compression of people. If that doesn’t allow you to have a point to talk about equity and humanness and labor and class and all those complex things, that’s jewelry. It ties directly to us as people. It’s important what you get out of wearing my necklace, why I made it, but it also almost doesn’t matter in a way, because we’re contributing to the pile.
In theory that’s called thickening, the thickening of a history. There isn’t one history of something; it's historiography. It’s the multiple possibilities of something. When you see jewelry, you can project yourself onto it. You can say, “I’m going to wear that to this party. I’m going to wear it to this thing, to this wedding, to a christening, to a birth, to this grocery store.” That’s a potential history when you see it, and what if we tied all of those together? Even when you look at an object, that’s why I love jewelry.
Sharon: Matt, thank you so much. You gave us a lot to think about. I could talk with you for another hour. Thank you so much for being with us today.
matt: Yes, it’s a super pleasure again. Like I said, you’re one of my very first collectors I ran into in Stockholm by happenstance.
Sharon: It’s a great happenstance. Thank you so much.
matt: Thank you, Sharon.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Matt Lambert
Matt Lambert is a non-binary, trans, multidisciplinary collaborator and co-conspirator working towards equity, inclusion, and reparation. They are a founder and facilitator of The Fulcrum Project and currently are a PhD student between Konstfack and University of Gothenburg in Sweden. They hold a MA in Critical Craft Studies from Warren Wilson College and an MFA in Metalsmithing from Cranbrook Academy of Art.
Lambert currently is based in Stockholm Sweden and was born in Detroit MI, US where they still maintain a studio. They have exhibited work nationally and internationally including at: Turner Contemporary, Margate, Uk, ArkDes, and Sven-Harrys Konstmuseum, Stockholm, Sweden, Museo de la Ciudad, Valencia , Spain and Walker Art Center, Minneapolis, MN, US. Lambert represented the U.S in Triple Parade at HOW Museum, Shanghai, China, represented the best of craft in Norway during Salon del Mobile, Milan, Italy and was the invited feature at the Benaki Museum, Athens, Greece during Athens Jewelry Week. Lambert has actively contributed writing to Art Jewelry Forum, Garland, Metalsmith Magazine, Klimt02, Norwegian Craft and the Athens Jewelry Week catalogues and maintains a running column titled “Settings and Findings” in Lost in Jewelry Magazine.
Additional Resources:
Transcript:
Matt Lambert doesn’t just want us to wear jewelry—they want us to question it. As a maker, writer, and Ph.D. student, Matt spends much of their time thinking about why we wear jewelry, who makes it, and what happens to jewelry as it’s passed from person to person. They joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the inspirations behind their work, why jewelry carries layers of meaning, and why wearing jewelry (or not wearing it) is always a political act. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week. Today, my guest is Matt Lambert, who is joining us from Stockholm. Matt is a maker, writer and performer currently pursuing a Ph.D.
Matt’s jewelry journey has taken them from country to country. What sticks in my mind is one of my first encounters with them on an Art Jewelry Forum trip. I saw them in a hotel lobby in Sweden wearing one of their iconic creations, a laser-cut leather neckpiece I flipped over. We’ll hear all about their amazing jewelry journey today. Matt, thanks so much for being here.
Matt: Thanks so much for having me, Sharon. It’s a pleasure.
Sharon: Your jewelry journey has taken you all over the world. I’m always amazed when I hear how you hop from country to country. So, tell us about it. How did you get into it?
Matt: Originally I was trained as a psychologist.
Sharon: Wow!
Matt: It’s kind of strange, but it makes perfect sense for what I do now in human sexuality and gender. I was researching body politics and what it means to be a person and be represented through media or in other cultures. I started off in that community, and I took a metalsmithing course on a whim. There was a woman in one of my classes who was taking it as her art elective. I thought we were going to be making something completely different by forging silver. I was like, “Wait, what? You can do that?” I really fell into it.
I was a researcher for the APA doing government research—
Sharon: APA being the American Psychological—
Matt: The American Psychological Association. After community college, I went on to Wayne State and studied under F.M. Larson for metalsmithing. At the very end, Lauren Kalman joined. She is tenured and was well-known at Wayne State University in Detroit.
The work I was doing was very rigorous. I worked in a rape and trauma research lab with no windows in a basement, and I wasn’t finding a way to talk about people and bodies and those things in the ways I had hoped. It was fulfilling me, but not in every aspect of my life. So, I kept pouring myself into this strange thing of contemporary jewelry.
I never thought I would go to grad school. I wound up going to Cranbrook Academy of Art, which is just 40 minutes down the road from Wayne State. Even then, I thought I was going to go across the country for art school. I fell in love with the program at Cranbrook. Iris Eichenberg, who teaches there, told me, “You have to fail really bad in order to learn what’s good and what’s good for your practice.” It was so liberating that I could apply all the research I learned and used and still use it today, but to put it and manifest it in jewelry. That opened Pandora’s box.
Sharon: How did you decide to go from studying psychology and being at Wayne State to go to such a renowned art school that you don’t know? It’s for art jewelers, basically.
Matt: Yeah, it’s renowned. I think it shares the number one space for metalsmithing and jewelry, and it’s renowned also for hollowware and gate making. It has a long history of Americana metalsmithing. With Iris being there for contemporary jewelry, it sounds a little bit pretentious.
The relationship I was in wanted me to stay local. It was like, “You should apply.” I really thought through everything weird and wonderful that I wanted to be doing, and I was like, “If I’m going to stay, then you have to take this all on.” Iris was like, “O.K., let’s do it.” Even if didn’t work out, it was like, “I can just go back to psychology if this doesn’t work.”
Cranbrook has an international reputation which also meant traveling a lot. In between semesters, I was the assistant for Christoph Zellweger, who’s based out of Zurich, Switzerland. I don’t know if they’re still there now, but at the time, I was their assistant in Switzerland during my years there. My partner was Monica Gaspar, so I got a theorist who I also got to work with. Then I kind of traveled everywhere. Before I started at Cranbrook, the first time I was in Europe, we had to go to KORU7, which is the jewelry triennial in Finland. They also do seminars. So, for me, it became a very global, European to North American perspective.
Sharon: I’m always amazed at your country hopping. Was this something you were considered a natural at? Were you finger painting at age five and your parents were saying, “Oh, they’re going to be an artist”?
Matt: I do have a background in wildlife illustration. I was homeschooled until sixth grade, but I was put in a lot of enrichment programs, so I did have ceramics; I had languages; I had all sorts of courses and electives. Growing up I trained in something called monart, which is not taught in public school; it’s only for private training. It’s a way of drawing where you draw from negative space, which I think contributes to my work, as I think through negative space. I was doing a lot of wildlife illustrations. I have quite a few childhood publications, like realistic waterfowl and birds of prey. I dabbled a little bit with Sidney Shelby. The Shelby has an art program for auto illustration, too.
So, there is some of that. I thought I was going to go into drawing and painting before I went into psychology, but I had an evaluation at community college when I started and they kind of broke my dreams. They said I was terrible and said, “You shouldn’t be an artist.” I would always say, “If you’re told you shouldn’t be an artist, you probably should be.” So, I went into psychology as a shelter to do that.
I’m a big advocate for trade schools and community colleges as places to find yourself. I fell in love with metalsmithing there, and I knew I would never leave it. My mother’s cousin was actually a former a Tiffany’s jeweler, so there is a little bit in the family. She was a cheerleader for me. She was like, “You’re doing what? Oh, have you found a hammer and silver? Great.” She trained under Phil Fike, who was at Wayne State University when she was there. It’s always interesting what she thinks I do because I’m not a very technical, proper silversmith like she was. When I finally went to school and said I was going to do this officially, she gave me her studio.
Sharon: Wow! You have two master’s degrees and now you’re working on a Ph.D. Can you tell us about that? One is critical art, or critical—
Matt: Yeah, critical craft theory. I graduated Cranbrook in 2014 from metalsmithing and jewelry, and I had electives in sculpture and textile. At the same time, I should say, I had also apprenticed as a leatherworker doing car interiors, like 1920s period Rolls-Royces, so I had a leather background I was able to bring to Cranbrook. A lot of my work was varied, but there was a lot of leather involved. After that, I had a partial apprenticeship in semi-antique rug restoration. There’s a lot of training in leather-working material.
So, I graduated, and I met Sophia. We had met a few times, and then she ended up being the evaluator/respondent for our graduation show. So, she saw my work as I wished it to be, and she offered me a solo show. She said, “An agent is coming to see the gallery. Come help out. Come see this world,” which is how we met.
Sharon: And her gallery is in Sweden, right?
Matt: Her gallery is in Stockholm, yes, in Sweden. I had a show, and that was amazing. There’s a government program called IASPIS, which is an invite-only program that the Swedish government runs. It’s the international arts organization. I was invited there because they were looking for—they added applied arts, and I was the first jeweler and metalsmith to be there. That’s a three-month program where you’re invited to live and work, and that gives you great networking opportunities not only with Sweden, but also with Scandinavia at large for museums and shows. I was the first foreigner at Tobias Alm, who was a Swedish jeweler and the first Swedish artist in jewelry to be there. That just upped and changed my life. I got into museum shows and met people and had a career for about four or five years and loved it; it was amazing and I wanted more.
I love theory. I am a theory addict, so I was like, “A Ph.D. is the next logical thing.” I was applying and making finals, but jewelry is a hard sell, if you will, in academia. Warren Wilson College is in North Carolina in the States. There is a think tank out of the Center for Craft, which is located in Asheville, North Carolina, and they deal with all kinds of craft. They’re a great epicenter and source of knowledge for American craft discourses. Out of this came this development of this program. They partnered with Warren Wilson College to create a master’s, which is a two-year program at Warren Wilson College, which is just 20 minutes away from Ashville.
It’s low residency, so there’s two weeks per term you’d be in person and the rest you could live anywhere, which was perfect for me because I was traveling so much. So, you do two weeks on campus in the summer and live in the dorm, and then you do two weeks—when I did it, at least, it was with the Center for Craft. We had a classroom there. Namita Wiggers is the founding director, and we got to work with amazing theorists: Linda Sandino, Ben Lignel, who’s a former editor for Art Jewelry Forum, Glenn Adamson, the craft theorist, Jenni Sorkin, who lives in California teaching, Judith Lieman—this is an amazing powerhouse. There’s Kevin Murray from Australia, who runs the World Crafts Organization. I was a bit part in it. He also edits Garland, which is an Australia-based publication for craft. It was an amazing pulling together of craft theory. At this time, I also thought I was dyslexic, so I was trying to find a new way to write being neurodivergent. Writing has now become—
Sharon: You do a lot of it. When I was looking last night, I could see you’ve done a lot of writing. My question is, why did you not stop and say, “O.K., I’m going to make things I like”? What was it that attracted you to theory? Maybe it’s too deep for me.
Matt: I think we’ve positioned the Ph.D. to be the next step always, but I don’t think academia is for everybody. A master’s even, I always questioned, do we as makers always need to be in academia? For me, though, my drive is that I think jewelry is in one of the best theoretical positions to talk about a lot of very difficult contemporary issues. Craft in general, but I think jewelry because it’s so tied to the body. It’s so blurry because it’s design; it’s fashion; it’s craft; it’s art; it’s a consumable good; it can be worn. It challenges how we exhibit it. If you need to wear it to experience it, how does a museum show it?
For me, it’s this little terror or antagonizer that I think theoretically, from my background, is a great place to stay with, and I think that it’s been neglected in certain spaces. It’s the only field to not be in the Whitney Biennial. It ties perfectly with certain forms of feminism and queerness, which is the theoretical basis I come to it from, to talk about these things. It can’t be always defined, and that’s what I love about jewelry. People find it surprising when I’m like, “I love talking about commercial jewelry or production jewelry,” because if that’s what turns your gears, what you love to wear or buy or make, I want to know why. I want to see jewelry expand and envelope all of this, so that we can be at the Whitney Biennial. We also could be everywhere else.
Sharon: Can’t you do that without the Ph.D.? I’m not trying to knock it. I’m just playing devil’s advocate.
Matt: Yeah, I think someone else can do that as well. For me, though, I truly love theory. I love the academics. For me, that is an actual passion. It’s what drives me. It’s not necessarily the physical making; it’s the theory behind why. I’m actually questioning my practice. Should I be making physical objects now, or should I just be celebrating people that make physical objects? My making practice is almost entirely collaborative now, working with other jewelers or performers or choreographers or educators and using jewelry as a way of introducing or as producing an output.
How does jewelry fit into research? I think research output is an interesting thing for me. I can go on about this all day. So, for me, I want to make an academic foothold for jewelry. I want to do that work. I see that as my facet. I don’t think everybody needs to go and do that. I want to see everybody find the thing they love as much as I love academia and theory. I want to push on so we can expand the field together.
Sharon: I think that’s great. It’s great to hear, because it’s a strong voice giving credibility to the field, as opposed to, “Oh, you must be interested in big diamonds if you’re talking about jewelry.” You’re talking about it on a much deeper level. It’s hard to explain to people why you like jewelry or jewelry history, so it’s good to hear.
Last night—I say last night because I was refreshing my memory—I was looking at one of your articles about the “we” in jewelry. Can you tell us about that?
Matt: Absolutely. I write for multiple publications: Metalsmith Magazine, which is in the U.S. and is part of SNAG, the Society for North American Goldsmiths; Norwegian Craft; Art Jewelry Forum. I run a column called Settings and Findings out of Lost in Jewelry Magazine, which is based in Rome. I also write for Athens Jewelry Week catalogues, which has gotten me into writing a series for Klimt, which is a platform for makers, collectors, wearers, and appreciators based out of Barcelona. They invited me to write a five-part series after they had republished an essay I wrote for Athens Jewelry Week. Those people gave me an amazing platform to write, and then Klimt was like, “What do you want to do?” and I was like, “Five essays about what we do with jewelry.”
One of them is the “we” article. That came from being in lockdown and the theorist Jean-Luc Nancy, who wrote about something called “singular plural.” It’s just saying that we don’t ever do anything alone, and I think jewelry is a beautiful illustration of that. I moved during the pandemic to do the Ph.D., and I found myself wearing jewelry to do my laundry because I got to do it with a friend. It’s so sappy in way, but it’s true. It’s a way to carry someone else with you, and jewelry is not an act done alone. I mean, we’re trained as jewelers. We’re trained by someone, so we carry that knowledge with us. We are transmitters as makers, but then we have collectors and wearers and museums and other things, and they need to be worn. It needs to be seen in some fashion or valued or held.
My personal stance is that jewelry, once it leaves my hands as a maker, isn’t done. I’m interested as a researcher, as a Ph.D., in how we talk about that space in between. If you wear one of my pieces, and someone listening wears one of my pieces, and that same piece is in a museum, how we understand that is completely different. Jewelry creates this amazing space to complexify, and that’s when you talk about bodies and equity and race, sex, gender, size, age. All the important things that are in the political ethos can be discussed through jewelry, and that’s the “we” of jewelry.
We have this controversy about the death of the author and authorship doesn’t matter, but speaking through craft, we are never alone. To me, it’s like I make through the people I’ve learned through. I am a transmitter to the people that I teach and to me, that’s what craft is. Also, craft is a way of looking at the world, at systems, and who we learn from and how we learn. I think jewelry is one of the most obvious “we’s.”
Sharon: This is a question that maybe there’s no answer to, but is jewelry separate from craft? There’s always the question of what craft is. Is craft art? Is it jewelry?
Matt: That depends on whom you ask. I personally do not believe in the art versus craft debate. I am not in that pool. I believe craft is a way of looking at anything in the world. I think craft is learned through material specificity. I usually enjoy metalsmithing. It’s through copper or silver, but it’s really spending time with something singular to explore its possibility. It’s a way of learning how things start, how things are produced, how labor works, where there are bodies and processes, so you can pick up anything in the world and look at anything and see people and humanity. Even through digital technology, someone has to write a program. It gives you a skillset to look at the world, and that’s how I approach craft.
You’re going to find so many different definitions, but coming from that perspective, that is what I believe, and that’s why I think craft is so valuable. To answer if jewelry is craft, yes and no. You can talk about jewelry through craft, but you could talk about jewelry through fashion. You can talk about jewelry through product design. Again, I think that’s why jewelry is beautiful and problematic, because it can be so many things at the same time.
Sharon: I’m intrigued by the fact that you’re interested in all kinds of jewelry, whether it’s art jewelry or contemporary jewelry. When you’re in the mall and you see Zales and look in the window, would you say it all falls under that, with everything you’re talking about? Does it transmit the same thing?
Matt: Through a craft lens, you can look at any of that. You can go to Zales and the labor is wiped out. You’re no longer going to your local jewelry shop. The person is making your custom ring, but when you look at that ring, you have an ability to go, “Someone had to facet the stone and cut it, a lapidary. Someone had to make the bands. Someone had to mine the stone. Someone had to find this material.” It allows you to unpack where objects are coming from and potentially where they’re going.
You can understand studio practices because you’re relating more directly to a maker, who has more knowledge of where their materials come from, rather than the sales associate at the Zales counter. It’s a simpler model, but it is the same thing to me. The way I look at it, that is craft’s value to my practice. I’m very careful to say it’s my practice because there are so many definitions, but that’s what I think is sustainable in this training. You can be trained as a jeweler and not make jewelry, but it’s still valuable in your life because you can apply it to anything.
Sharon: I was also intrigued by the title of an article you wrote, “Who Needs Jewelry, Anyway?” So, who does need jewelry?
Matt: Yeah, that’s one that kicked it up to the next level. There are moments in my career where I can feel the level upward, like I enter a space that’s different. That was an essay that was written for Athens Jewelry Week. That was the first essay I wrote before I had the feature at the Benaki Museum. At Athens Jewelry Week, those women worked their tails off to make that event happen.
I wrote that when I was at the tail end of my second master’s, and I was frustrated. I think we see that students are frustrated and people are questioning, especially during Covid, especially during Black Lives Matter, especially during the fight for indigenous rights, do we need jewelry? What does this mean? It’s a commodity. It can be frivolous. It’s a bauble. It can be decorative. Like, what are we doing? I think that is something we should always question, and the answer for that can be expressed in many ways. It can be expressed from what you make, but also what you do with what you make. How do you live the rest of your life?
There isn’t a one-lane answer for that, but that’s what that essay was about. We don’t need jewelry, but we really do. The first half of the essay is saying what the problem is, but the problem is also where the solutions sit. It’s all about how you want to approach it. That is what that essay was saying. You can consume this and wear it; it is what it is, and that’s fine. You can participate in systems and learn and discover and know who you are wearing and support them. Wearing jewelry is a political act no matter what jewelry you’re wearing. Where you consume is a political act. Political neutrality is still a political statement. That article specifically was for art jewelry, and it was saying, hey, when you participate, when you buy, when you wear, when you make, it means something. You’re bringing people with you; what people are you choosing to bring? It was stirring the pot, and it was very intentional to do that.
Sharon: I couldn’t answer the question about who needs jewelry. You’re asking me, but certainly I can think of people who say, “I don’t need it,” who have no interest or wouldn’t see the continuum behind a ring or a piece of jewelry.
This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Please make sure you subscribe so you can hear part two as soon as it comes out later this week.
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About Rosie Sayyah:
Rosie Sayyah has been selling and repairing vintage and estate jewelry from her shop, Rhinestone Rosie, in Seattle since 1984. In the early 1980s, Rosie felt her family tradition of dealing in antiques calling to her. Upon leaving her corporate career in television, she decided to open a jewelry store that not only had unique, exciting items for sale, but also where she could restore greatness to jewelry that had fallen into disrepair. Teaching herself about vintage costume and estate jewelry culture and repair through books, hobby shops, and hands-on experience, Rosie has become a national expert in the field. In the late 1990s, she began appearing regularly on “Antiques Roadshow” on PBS TV and continues today as one of their expert appraisers.
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Bill Harper began his career as an abstract painter, but in the early 1960s switched to enameling to achieve more intense colors. Fascinated by the supernatural aura of ritual objects, such as amulets, charms and tribal power figures, he began to produce brightly enameled necklaces and brooches in gold, silver and gemstones, as well as nonprecious and found objects that evoke a similar and mysterious power. Many of his recent pieces are mythical and ironic self-portraits that suggest intense introspection.
A dedicated educator, Bill taught at Florida State University from 1973 to 1992, and published “Step-by-Step Enameling: a Complete Introduction to the Craft of Enameling” in 1973. Bill’s work has been widely exhibited, including a one-person exhibition in 1977 at the Renwick Gallery of Smithsonian American Art Museum in Washington, D.C., and an internationally traveling retrospective in 1989. His work has been featured in collections of The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Philadelphia Museum of Art and Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, among many others in the United States and Europe. Bill’s most recent solo exhibit, “The Beautiful & The Grotesque,” closed in June 2019 at the Cleveland Institute of Arts’s Reinberger Gallery.
Bill was awarded a National Endowment for the Arts (NEA) fellowship in 1978 and NEA grants in 1979 and 1980. In 1980 and 1985 he received fellowships from the Florida Council on Arts and Culture.
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We can't wait to bring you new episodes this year!
Marc Auclert is a jewelry designer, gemologist, historian and founder of Masion Auclert, based in the Vendôme area of Paris. Founded in 2010, Maison Auclert is the first jewelry company offering a collection of museum-worthy antiquities mounted as modern works of wearable art.
Early in his career, Marc helped launch Chanel’s fine jewelry department. His career path has taken him to places such as London, where he was the head of jewelry for Europe and Asia with Sotheby’s Diamonds, as well as Tokyo, where he was the CEO of De Beers Diamond Jewelers.
Marc is a certified gemologist by the prestigious Gemological Institute of America in New York.
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Additional Resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Victoria Gomelsky
Victoria Gomelsky is editor-in-chief of JCK, a New York City-based jewelry trade publication founded in 1869. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, Robb Report, AFAR, WSJ Magazine, the Hollywood Reporter, Escape, The Sun and Waking Up American: Coming of Age Biculturally, an anthology published by Seal Press.
She graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from UCLA with a BA in political science in 1995 and earned her MFA in nonfiction writing from Columbia University in 2002. She specializes in jewelry and watch writing but her greatest love has always been travel — 60 countries and counting.
Victoria was born in St. Petersburg, Russia and emigrated to the United States in 1978 with her parents and twin sister, Julia. She divides her time between New York City and Los Angeles.
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Victoria Gomelsky watches:
Transcript:
Victoria Gomelsky, editor in chief of esteemed jewelry trade publication JCK, was bitten by the travel bug during her first-ever trip—when she and her family immigrated to the U.S. from the Soviet Union in the late 1970s. Since then, she’s visited more than 60 countries, often traveling to visit jewelry shows and report on jewelry trends. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her career in jewelry started with a mysterious online job posting; why Gen Z is changing the way we categorize jewelry; and where to find her favorite jewelry destinations. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Keep your eyes open for part two, which we’ll be posting later this week. Today, our guest is Victoria Gomelsky, editor-in-chief of the well-known industry publication JCK. Victoria is an accomplished writer. She’s written about jewelry for the New York Times as well as an extensive list of respected publications. She also covers another of her passions, which is travel. She’s had a quite a jewelry journey, as she was born in Russia and has been to more than 60 countries and counting. We’ll hear all about her jewelry journey today. Victoria, welcome back to the program.
Sharon: I have to ask you, why Las Vegas in July or in June? It’s hot then.
Victoria: You know it’s hot. It was this year that it was actually pushed back to August, which was so much hotter. It was hard to even fathom. I think the timing is such because it works well for the majors, the majors being the signets and the chain jewelers who really need to plan out their holiday buying much earlier than your average small boutique owner. A lot of it has to do with the schedule that makes sense for the industry. It’s Vegas because it’s hard to imagine another city that is appropriate for a giant tradeshow—
Sharon: That’s true.
Victoria: That’s easy to get, that has ample hotel room space. There are certainly smaller conferences that have been around the country. The American Gem Society has its annual conclave in a different city every year, but it’s much, much smaller. It’s convenience and ease of access, and I’ve gotten used to it. I don’t love Vegas, but it does feel like my year is incomplete without my week at JCK. I’ve been going since 2000, so it’s hard to imagine a year without it.
Sharon: How far in advance are you planning your publications? Are you thinking about the December issue in August?
Victoria: Well, if we had a December issue, yes.
Sharon: If it was an issue online?
Victoria: Online we can pull together pretty quickly. If it’s a big feature, we like to plan it at least a month in advance, but so much of online is responding to what’s happening in the world. Especially with the pandemic, it was really hard to plan because, as did everybody, we hit those walls where we thought, “This may not be relevant in a month.” Things were so changeable and volatile.
Online has a much different pace, but in terms of the print issue, we’ll start planning the issue that heads out the door on the eve of JCK Vegas 2022. It’ll probably go out in late May, and we’ll probably start thinking about that in January in terms of big picture ideas. Just this morning, I was asked to give a sketch of content for a section on colored stones. It’s hard to do that really early. You want to be timely. You want to be thoughtful about what people are thinking and what’s happening the world.
Especially if an issue’s coming out in the spring, I feel like after the holiday makes the most sense, because the holiday in the jewelry industry, as you can imagine or know, is everything. It’s still the bulk of sales. The bulk of news comes out of this fourth quarter. To plan content without knowing how the holidays have gone is going to miss the mark, unless you’re planning something general and vague. So, I like to wait until early January to start thinking about what makes sense and what people are talking about, what the news is.
Sharon: In terms of the holidays, since they’re around the corner right now, you must have some features that are holiday-related that you think about early on, maybe in September or August.
Victoria: We do. If it’s not about the holiday, it’s about what people might start thinking about for the holiday. We do a lot of trend coverage on JCK, a lot of specific trend coverage, whether it be men’s jewelry or something else. I’m actually working on a series of special report newsletters that go out every Monday in November all around the men’s jewelry theme. We’ve covered colored stones, pearls, bridal. We tackle everything with a slight angle towards the holiday, questions like: Is this worth stocking? What are the trends? What kinds of things might retailers keep in mind as they prepare?
JCK is very much a style and trend publication, but it’s also a business publication for people who happen to own jewelry businesses. We do a lot of marketing coverage, technology, social media apps that people need to know that might make them more efficient in their business. You could take jewelry out of a lot of what we cover and put in another field, whether it’s fashion or home good or anything, and it might apply in terms of the strategies people might want to use to target customers, what they need to know. We try to cover it from all facets. It’s always been a publication for businessowners in the jewelry space, so there’s a lot of general business information we try to make sure our readers are aware of.
Sharon: If you’re looking at trends, I’m thinking about the non-jewelry person that would go to Vogue or Harper’s Bazaar or something like that—I’m dating myself, I realize—who can go online. I still think in terms of putting it online, like everybody else. Tell us about men’s jewelry. Are men wearing more jewelry than before?
Victoria: Yes, they really are. It’s funny, because I’ve been 20 years covering jewelry, and every four or five years, I’m either asked to or I initiate a story about the men’s jewelry renaissance. There’s always been something to say over the last 20 years. I do a lot of freelance writing for the New York Times. I did a piece for the Times about seven years ago, and there was a lot to say. There were a lot of jewelers introducing new men’s collections and different takes on the subject, but no time has felt quite as relevant to that topic as now.
I think if you look to some of the most famous pop artists we see today, whether it’s Harry Styles or Justin Bieber, the Jonas Brothers, Lil Nas X, any of these pop culture personalities, they are draped in jewelry, and not just any jewelry. A lot of them are draped in pearls, which for many of us are the most feminine gem around. There is this great, very interesting conversation about genderless or gender agnosticism in jewelry. Should we even define jewelry as a men’s piece versus a woman’s piece? Why not just make jewelry? Maybe it’s a little more masculine/minimalist. Maybe it’s a little more feminine/elaborate or diamond-set, but let it appeal to who it appeals to. Why do you need to tell people who it’s for? It’s a conversation.
I also write about watches quite a bit, and it’s a conversation the watch world is grappling with, more so this year than any other year. Do we need to tell women that this is a “lady’s watch”? Why don’t we just market a watch, whether it, again, has feminine design codes or masculine design codes. Let whoever is interested in it buy it. We don’t need to tell people what categories they are allowed to be interested in. It’s been a very interesting conversation. I think fashion is embroiled in this conversation too, and it’s been exciting to see.
When I talk about men’s jewelry, I think what happens is that much of the industry still needs these categories because at retail, for example, a retailer might get a bunch of jewelry and they need to know how to merchandise or how to display it. For those kinds of problems, you still want to say, “O.K., well, this is my men’s showcase,” but I think slowly things are changing. I don’t know if in five years or 10 years, we’ll even need those topics anymore. I think we’ll just have a showcase of jewels. Again, they might be more minimalist or plainer, and they might appeal to men or women or people who consider themselves nonbinary.
Sharon: That’s interesting, especially with watches, because when women wear men’s watches, that’s a fashion statement today.
Victoria: Very much so. I did a huge piece on female collectors for the Times in early 2020, and all of them wore men’s pieces and felt a little grieved that they were being told what a woman’s watch is. A woman’s watch is a watch worn by a woman; that’s it. I think the same might be true for jewelry. A men’s jewel is a jewel worn by a man and so on. It’s been an interesting thing to see evolve, and certainly there’s a lot of momentum behind it. I think we’ll slowly see these categories dissolve.
Sharon: There’s a lot. I haven’t seen men wearing brooches. Some of what you’re talking about, to me, still has a way to go.
Victoria: A lot of it is being driven by Gen Z, Millennials, younger generations who look to their style icons like Harry Styles, as I mentioned. They’re draped in a feather boa and necklaces. As that generation comes up they’re going to age, and they’re eventually going to be 30 or 40 and they’ll be quite comfortable with jewelry because, 20 years later, they’ve been wearing it all these decades. But yeah, today, if you ask your average guy if he’s going to wear a pearl necklace, I’m sure the answer’s no, but I think these things do change. They change quicker than we expect them to. It’s so much of what we see and what seems O.K. A lot of men might want to do that or might think they would look good in a pearl necklace.
I keep coming back to it because pearls are, again, the most feminine of gems, at least in terms of the lore we talk about, how we talk about them. Yet you see them on people like the Jonas Brothers or, for that matter, big, beautiful, iced-out Cuban chains. You see those on rappers or on hip hop stars. There is this communication out in the world where if you’re just a regular guy and you’re cruising through your Instagram and seeing these images, it all says to you, “This is O.K. This is right. Go for it if you’re feeling it.” I think there is a lot more leeway in today’s society to express yourself the way you want to. I think it’s wonderful. It’s quite exciting to see those barriers break down and have these conversations. It’s been cool to write about.
Sharon: It would be interesting to have this conversation in 20 years. You reminded me of a conversation I had recently with an antique jewelry dealer about cufflinks. I said to her, “Cufflinks? Who wears cufflinks? I’m in Los Angeles.” Well, you’re in Los Angeles too. Even the most staid businessperson, you don’t see him with a cufflink, ever. I don’t know.
Victoria: Maybe about a month ago, my boyfriend and I were invited to the opening of the Academy Museum of Motion Pictures, which just opened in September in the heart of Miracle, right next to LACMA. It was a big gala affair sponsored by Rolex, which is a huge supporter of the Academy and the Oscars and now the museum. It was wonderful; it was like a little Oscars event, except it wasn’t televised. It was black-tie glamor. Hollywood glamor was the theme, so my boyfriend rented a tux; he doesn’t own one, of course, because we’re in L.A. and it’s a pandemic. Who needs a tux? But he got a tux, and I was gutted that I didn’t have cufflinks for him or that he didn’t have his own. He rented some, I think; he had a few shirt studs he was able to get from the rental place, but it was the first time. I thought, “Oh my God, cufflinks!” and we had a wonderful time. It was really exciting to be back in the world in such a fabulous way. It really felt special.
Sharon: I didn’t realize it had opened. I was at LACMA, the L.A. County Museum of Art, this weekend and there was a big crowd around the Academy Museum, but I didn’t realize it had opened. My antique jewelry dealer friend was also saying that she has collectors who collect antique cufflinks. I thought, “That’s interesting.” I didn’t know that was a collector’s item in some circles, I guess.
Victoria: Yeah, when I think about it, there are a lot of great ones in London. If you ever go through Mayfair or Old Bond Street and you find those antique dealers there—there’s Deakin & Francis, an old U.K. firm that specializes in cufflinks. I’ve never owned any, but now that we’re talking about it, I feel I need to buy my partner some.
Sharon: I stopped buying my husband them 20 years ago when they just sat on his dresser not worn. I said, “O.K., I tried.” You’re a traveler. You’ve been to how many countries?
Victoria: I lose track. It depends a little on how you count countries. I think I’ve counted Macao separately from China, even though it’s a special administrative region of Hong Kong. Somewhere around 60. It might be about 61 or 62. A lot of countries I’ve been to—I mean, I’ve been to Switzerland at least 20 times, Brazil five times, Russia four times. I keep going back to places even though it’s always very exciting to take another country off my list. As I mentioned earlier, I was a backpacker after college. My first trip was to Central America with some girlfriends with backpacks on. We took off for three months. We went to Costa Rica and Panama and Venezuela, and I ended up in the Caribbean for a couple of weeks.
I had already started a little bit of traveling. Initially, we came from Russia as a kid. I think when we left Russia in late 1978 as part of the exodus of Soviet Jews from the Soviet Union, we were allowed to seek asylum in the States. We took this journey via Vienna and then Rome and ended up in Cherry Hill, New Jersey, of all places, because that’s where we had an invitation. We had to have a formal invitation because we were political refugees.
I think very early on, even though it was never articulated to me—it was something I felt in my bones—I thought that travel was a way to lead a better life. It was a road to a better life, as it was for us. Early on that knowledge imprinted on me, on my soul. In high school, I started saving money to go to an exchange program in Spain. That was my first real trip outside—I’d gone to Mexico with my family, but I had never traveled outside of that. So, I had the bug. After college, I was always interested in slightly more offbeat places.
One of my favorite places in the whole world—and I dream about going back all time—is India. I love places that still feel like they’re not discovered. Clearly, India’s very discovered, but it’s not as easy to travel there as it might be to go to Europe. I love Europe and Paris and London as much as the next person, but there’s always something that feels a little easy in those spots. I love Southeast Asia. I went to Vietnam in the 90s a couple of times. I loved it. I love Malaysia. I love the food there. I love the smells and the culture. I love things that feel different. India couldn’t be more different than our lives. A lot of the same people go between the two, between L.A. and India, for example, and you’ll find a lot of creature comforts in places like Mumbai. The culture and the heritage and the history, the way of life and the way people look at life is so, so different, and I’m really drawn to that. I like going places that test me a little bit.
Sharon: How do your jewelry and travel intersect? I’m sure you’re traveling to the shows like Basle. India must be a great place for jewels. I don’t know about the shows there.
Victoria: My first trip to India was for a show. There’s a famous show—famous, I guess, depending on the circles you move in—in Mumbai called the India International Jewelry Show. That was my first reason to get to India in 2004. I ended up going back to do some reports on the diamond trade there. Mumbai is a real hub of diamonds, so I was going back to do research and then Jaipur in the north. Rajasthan is famous for its colored-stone industry. There are tons of colored-stone dealers and cutters and jewelers there, including the very famous Gem Palace, which I visited a couple of times.
My most recent trip to India was in 2017 to Jaipur to attend a conference on colored stones. It happened to intersect with a fair I had always wanted to go to called the Pushkar Camel Fair. Nothing to do with jewelry, although of course you see lots of jewelry in India. Jewelry’s a ubiquitous thing there. When I went to this conference in Jaipur, my partner ended up meeting me. We spent a few days in Jaipur together, went down to Udaipur, which is a wonderful town in the south of Rajasthan, just stunning in terms of its history and heritage and hotels and palaces. Then we finished off in Pushkar, also in Rajasthan, at this camel fair. My entrée was for jewelry, but I try to explore as much as I can around it.
India’s just remarkable. I’m very pleased that jewelry has such a natural and obvious connection to India because anytime I can have a work trip, take me there. Then if I can add on to it, I do. My son is only three—he’s not even three; he’s three in November, but I’m thinking, “How old does he have to be to go to India? What is too young to take a young, little guy to India?” Maybe when he’s seven, hopefully.
Sharon: That’s an interesting question. It could be three. There are people who are 33 who won’t go because they’re too afraid. It’s on my list, but you’re so adventurous.
Victoria: I wouldn’t have pegged myself as the adventurous sort, at least not in high school. I was very type A. I was student body president. I was a cheerleader. I was very on track at least to go to college and who knows what after that, but I never really thought of myself as a risktaker and an adventure seeker. After spending time in Southeast Asia—I went to backpack there in the 90s, through Vietnam and Cambodia and Malaysia and Singapore—it just settled in my bones. I wanted more and more and more. Those places feel adventurous, but once you get there, they’re not as challenging—well, they are challenging in that there’s a lot of poverty; the heat is oppressive; it’s hard sometimes to figure out your way around if the signage isn’t clear and you don’t speak the language, but I genuinely feel like the world is full of very good people. Maybe a few bad apples in there, but most people are very kind. So, it’s easier than it seems.
Sharon: Do you think if somebody is a jewelry designer or looking at the field or profession, that travel would inform what they do?
Victoria: Oh, 100 percent yes. There are some jewelers who very much look to other cultures or travel. I think of Lydia Courteille, who’s a Parisian jeweler who does insanely elaborate, beautiful gem-set pieces usually after a trip somewhere. She’s done pieces based on the Mayan heritage. I believe she traveled to Guatemala. She’s done pieces based on myths from Russia and India, and a lot of her collections really are inspired by travel she’s taken.
There’s another jeweler who’s part Mexican, part French, named Colette. She has incredible jewels, a lot of them takes on various places she’s visited. I think if I were a jeweler, I would certainly use travel as a jumping-off point to create a collection. I can’t think of anything more evocative than a jewel that reminds you of a place you’ve been or the color of the ocean. A lot of people go to Greece and create a beautiful blue jewel that reminds them of the Aegean. Why not?
Sharon: I’m thinking of Thierry Vendome, where he goes and finds rusted pieces on his travels and then he’ll come back and incorporate them. One piece had a grenade—
Victoria: An exploded grenade.
Sharon: An exploded grenade, yeah. Tell us who we should keep our eyes on, the top three you think of we should keep our eyes on.
Victoria: I just wrote about a jeweler that I only saw in person recently in Las Vegas at the Couture show, but I had Zoomed with them. They are Mumbai-based. It’s a company called Studio Renn. It’s a husband and wife named Rahul and Roshni Jhaveri, and they create jewelry for art lovers that really does live at the intersection between art and jewelry, philosophy, design. Sometimes you have to talk to them to hear the inspiration, but for example, one of them—they had stumbled across an object on a walk around Lake Tansa, which is a lake on the outskirts of Mumbai. There was this conversation they had about what it means to give something attention. Does that put value on the piece? And for them, it was this exploration of the meaning of value. They took this piece that was an organic object. They didn’t tell me what it was. They cast it. They 3D scanned the whole thing and then encased it in precious metal, put rubies inside it in a way that you could only see them if you shone a light on the piece. There was this written source of very layered, complicated but also beautiful jewelry. They’re just very interesting. They’re really thoughtful.
Sharon: How do you spell Renn?
Victoria: R-e-n-n.
Sharon: I have to say it’s the second time this week that somebody has mentioned them as somebody to keep your eye on.
Victoria: Yeah, I was thrilled to speak to them, and I ended up doing a piece for the New York Times on them. An Up Next Profile is what the column is called, because even though they’ve been around for a few years and they’re not brand new, they’re obviously new to people in the States. They are exploring this market. They worked a tour for the first time. They’re really lovely and interesting and do beautiful work.
Another jeweler that’s gotten a ton of attention—I know her pretty well personally. She is a client of a very good friend of mine. Her name is Lauren Harwell Godfrey, and her collection is called Harwell Godfrey. She’s gotten a ton of attention over the last year. In fact, I just saw that she was nominated for a GEM Award, which is like the Oscars of the jewelry industry. The ceremony takes place in January in New York. She was nominated in the design category. Really fantastic use of color, lots of interesting motifs that feel very signature to her, lots of geometric work. We ended up commissioning a piece for my mom for her 75th birthday that my dad gifted to her this last summer. it wasn’t a super bespoke piece, but there were bespoke elements to it. It was by Harwell Godfrey. She’s a really lovely woman, super-talented designer based in Marin in Northern California.
I’ll name one more. He’s a really interesting guy. He does a ton of work with AI, artificial intelligence, in a way that scares a lot of people that are used to jewelry as this handmade, soulful object. His point is that there’s no less soul in it, even though a computer helped to generate an algorithm that created a pattern that he inputs into this machine. His name is Nick Koss. His company is called Volund Jewelry. He’s based in Canada and has a very interesting background that I cannot even attempt to encapsulate because it’s rich and complicated, but he does really interesting jewelry. A lot of it is using 3D modelling software, AI, but in a thoughtful way. Again, there is lots of meaning baked into the way he sees things. He could talk about it very intelligently. He does custom work. You can go down a real rabbit hole with him. Check him out on Instagram. It’s V-o-l-u-n-d.
I have a soft spot for one jeweler because I wrote a whole book on them that was published by Assouline probably six or seven years ago. It’s a company called Lotus Arts de Vivre. They’re based in Bangkok. They’ve been around since the early 80s, I want to say. It’s a real family business. The patriarch is originally from Germany. He moved to Bangkok in the 60s and fell in love with a woman who had been born in Thailand but was the product of many years of intermarriage. Her grandfather was a Scottish captain who fell in love with a tribeswoman from north Thailand. Her other grandfather was an Englishman who married a woman from Malaysia. So, she was the distillation of generations of inner marriage between European and Asian backgrounds. They have this huge compound in Bangkok, and they have two sons that now help run the business.
They do extraordinary objects in jewelry. They started out as jewelers, but they do everything from home goods to accessories for people’s cars. They use a lot of natural materials in addition to the finest gemstones. They use Golconda diamonds or emeralds from the Panjshir Valley in Afghanistan combined with snakeskin and buffalo horn and different woods. They’re huge on different exotic woods from across southeast Asia. They find the finest craftspeople across Asia, whether it’s lacquer artists from China or Japan to carvers from Indonesia. They will employ those crafts in their work, and it’s just stunning.
They used to be with Bergdorf Goodman for many, many years. They are still available in the States. In fact, they won at the recent Couture show for some of their work. So, they’re still here and they’re everywhere. They have boutiques in different hotels, especially in Asia, like the Peninsula in Hong Kong or Raffles in Singapore. They have a presence, but they’re not as well known, I would say, in the States.
Sharon: I’ll check them out, especially if you wrote a whole book about them.
Victoria: The family is beyond interesting. It’s the von Bueren family. He’s a raconteur, somebody who you could listen to for hours. He’s very, very interesting and has seen a lot, and their clients are very interesting. They appeal to a lot of high-society people across Asia, so they have these events. They have a space, a showroom, at their factory in Bangkok right on the river, and they host these soirées that are just magnificent.
Sharon: Wow! I’m sure you know all the ins and outs. You can go down a long list of jewelers and manufacturers. You could tell me about all of them. Victoria, thank you so much for being here today. This is so interesting. I’m sure our audience will enjoy hearing what you have to say about JCK since it is such a stalwart. Thank you very much.
Victoria: Thank you, Sharon. This is lovely. Thank you for giving me such an opportunity to talk about myself.
Sharon: So glad to have you.
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About Victoria Gomelsky
Victoria Gomelsky is editor-in-chief of JCK, a New York City-based jewelry trade publication founded in 1869. Her work has appeared in the New York Times, Robb Report, AFAR, WSJ Magazine, the Hollywood Reporter, Escape, The Sun and Waking Up American: Coming of Age Biculturally, an anthology published by Seal Press.
She graduated summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa from UCLA with a BA in political science in 1995 and earned her MFA in nonfiction writing from Columbia University in 2002. She specializes in jewelry and watch writing but her greatest love has always been travel — 60 countries and counting.
Victoria was born in St. Petersburg, Russia and emigrated to the United States in 1978 with her parents and twin sister, Julia. She divides her time between New York City and Los Angeles.
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Transcript:
Victoria Gomelsky, editor in chief of esteemed jewelry trade publication JCK, was bitten by the travel bug during her first-ever trip—when she and her family immigrated to the U.S. from the Soviet Union in the late 1970s. Since then, she’s visited more than 60 countries, often traveling to visit jewelry shows and report on jewelry trends. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how her career in jewelry started with a mysterious online job posting; why Gen Z is changing the way we categorize jewelry; and where to find her favorite jewelry destinations. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Keep your eyes open for part two, which we’ll be posting later this week. Today, our guest is Victoria Gomelsky, editor-in-chief of the well-known industry publication JCK. Victoria is an accomplished writer. She’s written about jewelry for the New York Times as well as an extensive list of respected publications. She also covers another of her passions, which is travel. She’s had a quite a jewelry journey, as she was born in Russia and has been to more than 60 countries and counting. We’ll hear all about her jewelry journey today. Victoria, welcome to the program.
Victoria: Hi, Sharon. It’s so great to be here. Thank you so much.
Sharon: I will go into my normal questions, but my first question is—and it seems like a silly one—but you speak Russian, then?
Victoria: I do. It’s actually not that silly. I came here when I was five with a twin sister. We arrived at JFK in December of 1978, pretty much the height of the Cold War. So, my sister and I really did not want to be Russian, as we were five, six years old. We didn’t want to be different from our classmates. So, we started speaking quite quickly in English, and that’s how my language developed.
I could understand Russian, but in terms of speech, I am not a great speaker. Those are really two different centers in the brain, as I realized. I can be a very good tourist. I can go to St. Petersburg or Moscow, ask for directions, order food at a restaurant, but if you want to have a deep conversation with me about business or anything that requires an extensive vocabulary, it’s not going to be me. But I can understand pretty well.
Sharon: It always fascinates me. Did you speak any English when you came here?
Victoria: No, but having a twin sister and being five, you’re a little bit of a sponge. I’ve read that before age seven, if you pick up another language before that age, that’s more or less the cutoff. You can learn to speak quite fluently very quickly, and we did. We didn’t know any words. We stopped in Vienna on the way out of the Soviet Union, and then we lived outside of Rome for a few months, so I probably picked up some Italian then, too, come to think of it, not that it stuck. But when we got to the States, it all happened very quickly. I really don’t remember learning English. It was almost as if I picked it up by osmosis.
Sharon: Wow! It’s a great way to learn, in terms of thinking about how it is to learn a language. Your English has solidified in a sense.
Victoria: Exactly.
Sharon: Were you artistic then? Were you already artistic? Do you consider yourself an artistic person?
Victoria: It’s a good question. I don’t know. I consider myself creative. My sister—again, I have a twin sister; she’s really the artist of the family. She’s much more visual. She’s a graphic designer, an artist. She creates collages and all kinds of things with her hands. I’m not dexterous at all, so my creativity is on the page, what I write and how I see the world. So, I don’t consider myself an artist, but I do consider myself a creative.
Sharon: Does she call you up sometimes and say, “What were you thinking about that layout on the page?”
Victoria: Oh yeah, she’s super-critical. Trust me, I do not design or do anything around the home that doesn’t get her buy-in, because if I don’t get her buy-in on it, she’ll come over and say, “Oh my God, I can’t believe you put that on the wall.” She’ll never let me hear the end of it. So, I make sure to get her buy-in on any artistic or design-oriented decision I have to make.
Sharon: She must be a great resource for you in terms of what you do. Did you come to jewelry through writing, or did you have a love of jewelry? How did that work?
Victoria: I came through writing. It was all quite random. I’ll share the story because it’s really my story; it’s my original tale, I guess you would say.
Sharon: It’s a journey.
Victoria: My journey. This was the beginning. I was in living in L.A. I was 25. I really wanted to move to New York, and I was too scared to move without a job or without knowing anybody. I really wanted to continue my writing career. I had been a journalist. Even though I majored in poli-sci at UCLA, I had always worked for the Daily Bruin. I had done internships at various news organizations, some of them in the television field; some of them were written publications.
I applied to one MFA program in total, and that was the Columbia University Master of Fine Arts program in their non-fiction writing department, specifically. That’s the only school I applied to, because I wanted to move to New York and I wanted to continue writing, and that felt, to me, like the only possible way for me to do that.
I moved to New York in August of 1998, did two years of this Master of Fine Arts program, and then didn’t want to leave. I was still working on my thesis and finishing my degree when I started applying for jobs that were in the writing field. Mind you, this was 2000, so it was the very first wave of web jobs. It was Web 1.0. I didn’t realize it yet, but it was on the verge of crashing. That crash we had in 2001 was coming, but I didn’t see it then. There were a lot of jobs; a lot more jobs than people to fill them.
I happened to go on Monster.com. I’m not sure if it’s around anymore. It was a job search site. I had a profile on the site, and I happened to come upon a posting that said, “Luxury goods website seeks writer/editor with two to three years’ experience. Click here to forward your profile to this employer.” I had no idea what that meant. It was very vague. At the time, you faxed people your résumé. I guess you could email, but a lot of times it was still faxed. There was just no information at all. It was literally a button. I clicked it and thought, “O.K.” and I forgot about it promptly.
A few days later, I heard from a woman named Lisa at a company called Gemkey.com. I had no idea what that was, but it turns out Gemkey was a startup in the jewelry space. It was meant to be a website where retailers would go on and source their inventory online, which was laughable because 20 years later, that’s still something that most retailers don’t do. It was way, way, way ahead of its time. It was founded by Fred Mouawad, whose father is Robert Mouawad. Robert Mouawad is a Lebanese businessman who donated a ton of money to GIA. His name graces their campus in Carlsbad. GIA being the Gemological Institute of America.
Sharon: That’s why it sounded familiar. I was going, “Where do I know that from?”
Victoria: Yeah. Anyway, Fred was the son. He was an entrepreneur. He was based in Bangkok, and he had this website that had an office in New York. They were looking for some editors to fill out the news section of their site. I was hired as their pearl and watch editor, and I had no idea about either category. I didn’t even know pearls were cultured. I really had no language to describe them. I knew what a watch was, but I knew nothing. I could have named Rolex, Cartier maybe, and maybe Timex.
I had been backpacking around the world in the late 90s prior to going to grad school, so I was living very scrappily and was quite frugal. I was in my early 20s, not really in the jewelry scene. One of my first trips was to a pearl farm in Australia to see the Paspaley farm located off the coast of Northern Australia. On the way there, I stopped in Bangkok to visit Fred Mouawad’s main headquarters and meet some of my colleagues. On the way out, I stopped in Hong Kong to go to the pearl auctions, and I was hooked. It was a wonderful introduction to the world of jewelry, quite literally the world of jewelry. I had loved travel until then, and here was a way to combine my love of it with a way to explore this new category, this new universe. So, I came to jewelry through writing and then through travel.
Sharon: That must have been so exciting, to be writing about something you found you loved as opposed to—I don’t know. I’m trying to think of some of the things I’ve had to market over the years where it’s like, “You’ve got to be kidding me.”
Victoria: Yes, I think that was one of the things I learned quite early. My job with Gemkey didn’t last long because it got bombed not that long after. I think I was employed with them for eight months or so, and then I got laid off because the company was losing money. I ended up getting hired almost right away by National Jeweler, which at the time was close to a hundred-year-old publication. It’s still around, not in print form, but it’s around in digital form. It was founded, I believe, in 1906. It’s really an industry trade like JCK, one of the stalwarts of the business.
I got hired as their gemstone editor. I got to National Jeweler, and I realized the company—National Jeweler at the time was owned by a bigger corporation that owned lots of different publications, everything from the Hollywood Reporter to Billboard Magazine to a publication called Frozen Food News. I realized there are so many different niches in the world, and as a writer, I was grateful I didn’t slip into the frozen food world, but the music world is great. If you enter music via Billboard, what a great way to learn about music.
I happened to enter through the trade of jewelry, and that was a wonderful way to get down into the trenches of an industry that is quite esoteric, quite hard to penetrate, and it still is. All these years later, there’s still so much to learn about jewelry, but starting out through a trade was the key. When you’re a trade reporter, you get to talk to dealers; you go to tradeshows; you learn from a very ground-up level, as opposed to being an editor of Vogue, where you don’t get to see the real world. You spend your time in the limelight. You get to see all kinds of topical designers, but you don’t always get the nitty-gritty details, that insight into the supply chain and insight into how a gemstone might emerge from the ground and the steps it takes to become a beautiful jewel. That all came through the trade, so I was very grateful to have that experience and the years and years I spent going to the Tucson shows to research the world of gems, to Basle to speak to high-end jewelers in Europe. There were all kinds of events. I have had a very unique perspective on this trade and the world at large through the lens of jewelry.
Sharon: Do you find that writing about jewelry has its own language, in a sense? It’s like writing about sports. I couldn’t write about sports.
Victoria: Very much so. The lingo takes a long time to understand. People think of jewelry as a very superficial subject. I think people who don’t know about jewelry will perhaps think, “Well, it’s just a bauble. It’s just something you put on to sparkle, to add a little or to show off your status, whatever it is.” But there are so many layers to jewelry, and the way you talk about it gets ever more complicated the more you know.
There’s a whole language around diamonds and gemstones and the ways you describe color, not to mention all the ways you talk about the fabrication of jewelry. That’s always eluded me a bit. I’ve been to factories, and I’ve been to places where jewelry is made, and that still feels like a topic that’s difficult for me to access because I don’t have a brain to understand mechanics or engineering. When people are sitting there at the bench trying to tell me the steps of the process, I always get a bit lost. It does feel like a very complicated venture, but I have been fortunate enough to see a lot of that.
Sharon: No, I can understand. I was at some design show, and there was a jeweler talking about how much of jewelry is engineering. He was talking about getting the piece to balance, but it’s also when you’re talking about extrusions when a piece of jewelry is being manufactured.
So, you went into nonfiction. Was that something where you said, “I’m not a fiction writer”?
Victoria: Yeah, pretty much. I love fiction and I love poetry, but it never felt like a natural pursuit for me. I was always interested in telling stories, and the stories that really compelled me or held my attention were always nonfiction. I think we all know that truth is stranger than fiction. We’ve all had the epiphany many times throughout lives, I’m sure, where we realized that the stories in front of us are as compelling as anything made up.
My entrée into that world was initially through The Daily Bruin, which was a huge college newspaper at UCLA. I learned the basics of being a reporter and a journalist and hunting down sources and doing interviews, but at the same time I didn’t love the grind of a daily journalism beat. It was good training, but when I applied to Columbia, I specifically did not apply to the journalism school. I applied to the arts program, to the Master of Fine Arts program, and I was drawn to the writings of, say, a Joan Didion or a Tom Wolfe or polemicists or memoirists—a lot of fiction authors who write beautifully in nonfiction or have beautiful examples of nonfiction in their repertoires. I was drawn to the kind of writing that was true, that was honest, but that still held all the same elements of a good fiction tale. It had characters, dialogue, a plot.
I probably don’t do as much of that kind of writing as I hoped I would, or as much as I wish I could, because I’m making a living. I write journalism; I write stories, but in all the stories I write, I really try to spend a lot of time with the people who are my sources and get their stories. I really try to convey a sense of story, even if it’s a short piece that’s running in a newspaper. I do as best as I can in that limited word space with a storyline.
Sharon: Tell us about your job as editor. Are you pulling together all the departments, like you see on TV editorial meetings?
Victoria: It’s a little bittersweet, because JCK—for those of you who aren’t familiar, I’ll tell you a little bit about what that stands for, because it’s a mouthful. JCK goes back to 1869. It wasn’t always JCK, which, by the way, stands for Jewelers’ Circular Keystone. Jewelers’ Circular was a publication in the 30s that merged with another jewelry publication called Keystone. From then on, they were called Jewelers’ Circular Keystone, until the 70s when they shortened it to JCK. So, that’s what those three initials stand for, but initially, it goes back to 1869 in Maiden Lane, New York, where the fledging jewelry district was growing up. There were watchmakers and jewelers who needed a publication to help them source their materials, help them sell. Various publications formed around them, and they eventually merged and aligned. What we know as JCK today really comes out of Maiden Lane in the 1870s. It’s pretty stunning to think about.
I joined the magazine in 2010. I had moved back to Los Angeles after nearly a dozen years in New York because I was ready to move. I moved back in late 2009. I had lost my job with National Jeweler after the financial crisis, and that was fine. I had been there for eight years or so, so it was time to move back to California where I grew up. About six months after I landed back in L.A., I ended up getting asked by a friend of mine who was the publisher of JCK if I’d be willing to take a temporary job with JCK as their editor. They were looking for a new editor. They were looking for somebody in New York, but they needed somebody to get them over the hump of a few issues. I thought, “Great, this is a perfect bridge job as I find my footing back in L.A.”
Well, as it turns out, it was not that hard to manage a publication from L.A. because I knew the industry. I had my contacts. I even knew my colleagues because I had worked with them. They were editors at JCK, but I had met them many years ago, as I was one of their cohorts in the jewelry media space. So, I knew the people I was working with. After six months or so, everybody thought, “Hey, this is actually going pretty well,” so they brought me on full time. Luckily, I had an apartment in Brooklyn Heights that I had sublet out and hadn’t gotten rid of, so I was able to come back to New York once a month for about a week. For about six years, I was truly bicoastal, from 2010 to about 2016.
In that time, JCK continued to be—its tagline is “the industry authority.” It’s been reporting on this business for so long, and it was exciting. At first, we started out with 10 print issues a year. We had contributors; we had staff writers; we had a whole publishing team. Slowly over the years, that print frequency has shrunk. It became seven issues a year. Then it shrunk down to four print issues a year; mind you, with a robust website and a very strong daily news presence online, but print has always continued to shrink in this environment. As of this year, we went down to one print issue a year. That harried newsroom where people are running around and there are photoshoots happening, that did happen and still does happen, but just not to the frequency and level that you might imagine of a busy magazine publishing schedule.
The good thing is that we’re published by a company called Advanced Local that is based at One World Trade Center in New York. Of course, nobody’s been in the office for a good long while now, but when we are in the office, it’s the same parent company, Condé Nast, so we use the same studios to do our photography. We rely on the same talent in terms of photographers and stylists that Vogue and GQ do. So, we have a really good team of people. They’re not directly staffed. They’re not members of the JCK staff, but they are people that are available to us.
We have a wonderful creative director, again, somebody who’s a freelancer, but works with top magazines, a wonderful photo editor. When we do get back to being in the office, I’ll certainly fly out to New York and partake, or at least be a witness to the photoshoots we do for our covers and our jewelry still lifes. But the hectic, frenzied nature of that has certainly calmed down. We do have, like I said, a robust online presence. We have a well-known news director named Rob Bates. He’s covered the world of diamonds and jewelry news for 23 years, coming on 30, I think. We’re staffed by some of the best in the business, but it definitely is a small, very scrappy operation.
Sharon: So, during Covid, you’ve been doing this through Zoom, I take it.
Victoria: Yeah, everything is through Zoom. We managed to get a bunch of photoshoots in right at the very beginning of March of 2020 that luckily saved us in terms of what we could produce through 2020. Then we did a photoshoot in May. There was that lull where things were looking pretty promising before the Delta variant, so we were able to do a photoshoot then. Like I said, now we’re looking to 2022.
We have a big issue coming out. It always comes out on the eve of the JCK Show. The JCK Show is the big Las Vegas tradeshow. It shares our name. I don’t want to get too complicated with this, but the show was founded in 1992 as a spinoff from the magazine. The magazine existed for all these decades, and the team involved thought, “Hey, isn’t it time we use our clout in the industry to form a tradeshow?” And so they began this tradeshow in Las Vegas that then grew to be such a big presence in such an important industry meeting place that the tradeshow ended up being bought by different exhibition companies, and it eventually landed with Reed Exhibitions, which is a big company headquartered in the U.K. with U.S. headquarters in Connecticut. They run a lot of tradeshows and exhibitions, and they ended up buying the magazine and then hiring a different company to publish it. That may be more than your listeners want to hear. It’s kind of complicated, but the point is we are related to JCK, this big tradeshow, but we’re also an independent editorial voice, so we aren’t bound to only write about JCK.
Sharon: That’s interesting. What about Couture, which is part of the JCK Show, isn’t it?
Victoria: It’s a separate company. In fact, National Jeweler, when I worked there, was owned by the company that—it’s gone through many iterations. The company that runs Couture is called Emerald Exhibitions, and they’re headquartered in New York. That was the company that owned National Jeweler at some point. There’s a lot of overlapping relationships in this world. Couture and JCK are separate companies, separate entities, but they happen at the same time in Las Vegas to make it easy for members of the jewelry industry to shop the shows.
There are different points of view. Couture is very much focused on couture-level, high-end designer jewelry. JCK has that, but it also has everything else you might imagine, everything from packing to loose diamonds, loose gemstones, dealers from Hong Kong, Turkey, China when the Chinese are able to visit. JCK is much more a mass marketplace for the entire industry, and Couture is much more focused on high-end design. They’re complementary and I love going to both.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Amy Elliott
Amy Elliott is a writer, editor and brand storyteller who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion, and is fluent in other lifestyle categories, including food, weddings and travel.
As a former staff editor at The Knot, Bridal Guide, Brides Local Magazines + Brides.com and Lucky, Amy is known for delivering high-quality editorial content across a variety of print and digital media. After recently serving as the Engagement Rings Expert for About.com, Amy joined the freelance staff of JCK as its All That Glitters columnist, while contributing articles about jewelry trends, estate and antique jewelry and gemstones to its prestigious print magazine.
Amy also serves as the Fine Jewelry Expert for The Bridal Council, an industry organization composed of luxury bridal designers, retailers and media, and her byline has appeared in Gotham, Hamptons, DuJour, Martha Stewart Weddings, GoodHousekeeping.com and more.
Additional Resources:
Examples of posts that reflect the intersection of jewelry with history, culture and current events:
Bob Goodman Wants Jewelers To Join Him in Disrupting the Status Quo:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/bob-goodman-jewelers-disrupting/
The Ten Thousand Things x Met Museum Collaboration Is Coming In Hot:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/ten-thousand-things-x-met-museum/
Go “Sea” Some Serious Silver Treasures At Mystic Seaport Museum:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/sea-as-muse-silver-seaport-museum/
New Jewelry From Rafka Koblence, Olympic Wrestler Turned Designer:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/new-jewelry-from-rafka-koblence/
Transcript:
As author of the “All That Glitters” blog for JCK, Amy Elliott has a front row seat to the jewelry industry’s up-and-coming trends and designers. She’s also been lucky enough to work with some of these designers, helping them refine their brands and create stories that resonate with customers. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what designers and retailers should do to stay relevant with younger consumers, how art jewelry has influenced high jewelry, and what jewelry trends to watch out for in the coming months. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: When you say you like strong, new collections, what catches your eye when somebody’s presenting a new collection to you or sends you a press kit or email?
Amy: Every time I’m ever interviewed for something, I always say this, but photos are so important, beautiful, beautiful photos. Whatever budget you have, use it for the photography. I love glamorous jewelry. I love high jewelry. I love glamor, big, bold, extremely extravagant jewels; from an editorial standpoint, I love them. I love to excite the senses with beautiful jewelry that makes you stop in your tracks. So, the jewels have to be beautiful, and you need to have beautiful photos to accurately portray that. It’s just a strong point of view.
Boucheron came to me, and they have a whole series inspired by a cat that belonged to the Maison Boucheron early on in their life. His name is Vladimir, and it’s a whole collection that takes this Persian cat with his swept fur. There’s a story there; there’s a heritage story. I love that. I love to take a new collection and look back at how it came to be. I love figuring out what a designer’s signature is, whether they’re well-established or they’re just coming out. Every once in a while you’ll find a newcomer with a strong point of view and you’re like, “I’ve never seen this before. I’m so excited to tell that story.”
Sharon: I think it’s so important to say or to reiterate that for everybody, no matter what kind of jewelry you’re selling, whether it’s fine jewelry or antique jewelry. I’m thinking of some of the tradeshows when I’ve talked to dealers and they’re like, “Oh, I don’t have the money for photos.”
Amy: I don’t know what to say. I’ve been saying it for 20 years and it’s still a problem. There are some designers that are really overexposed and there are some that are underexposed. I’m always excited to discover somebody I’m not following on Instagram. How exciting! A lot of times, they’re international. I’m connected with a PR firm in Paris right now. They’ve been calling me a lot, and it’s a goldmine of designers that don’t get featured a lot over here. I think I’m the only editor at JCK that covers estate and antique jewelry. I’m always covering auctions and exhibitions in that vein and all of the art fairs. I’ve written about Sienna Patti up in the Berkshires several times. It really is a pleasure, and anything goes. I have an action-packed calendar for the holidays.
Sharon: It sounds like it, yes. Sienna Patti, I know she’s in the western part of Massachusetts.
Amy: Yes, she’s in the Berkshires.
Sharon: She has an art jewelry gallery I’d love to get to someday. How does art jewelry fit in here? Does it catch your eye if the right photos are sent to you? Do you see it taking more of the market or having a higher profile?
Amy: It’s interesting. The one thing I will say, and it’s so hard to speak in terms of trends when you’re dealing with very expensive, high-end, collectible jewelry, but what I have noticed a little bit of is the selling of sweet sets, something that might be convertible, a multipiece set. Christopher Thompson Royds does that. You get a beautiful box, and then it’s an earring that can be worn three or four different ways. Annoushka did a collaboration with Fuli Gemstones. Beautiful, bright green peridot like you’ve never seen. It was not really a collection; it was an eight-piece set. That is what the customer is being asked to buy into, and that feels very collector, very connoisseur, a very specific kind of angle. It’s a very specific customer that is going to want to invest in jewelry that can be worn but is presented as an art object or sculpture or something to display in your home as sculpture, but then you can take it out and wear it. I see that as a direction with very, very high-end jewelry that’s being shown in galleries, this notion of buying a boxed set.
Sharon: When you said sweet sets, I was thinking edible sweets. That’s interesting.
Amy: Sets of jewels.
Sharon: There’s an idea. Tell us who the emerging, independent designers are today. Who should we keep our eye on? Who’s overlooked? Who’s being so creative, knocking it out of the park, but you don’t hear talked about? Who’s collectible?
Amy: I know this is a very informed and qualified audience, Sharon, so I’m sure these names are going to be familiar to many in your audience, but I think the industry has collectively embraced the work of Harwell Godfrey.
Sharon: Now, that’s one I don’t know.
Amy: Lauren Harwell, I think she’s based in LA, and she has a strong point of view. It’s beautiful inlaid jewels, weighty, substantial, geometric, absolutely a strong point of view, Sharon.
Sharon: I see her on Instagram a lot.
Amy: Yes, Harwell Godfrey is probably one of the strongest voices to emerge in the pandemic era. Before that it was Anna Courey, absolutely with her diamond ear cuffs. I think she set us on a course with that. Glenn Spiro is an under-the-radar but highly, highly couture jeweler. There’s a book out from Assouline on him that Jill Newman wrote. I think his name is going to become more well-known among collectors. He’s a private jeweler based in London, I believe, and I think we’re going to be hearing more about that. Anytime there’s a book or an auction, the names are elevated; the names are surfaced and get a little more traction, so I definitely would be watching Glenn Spiro. Nikos Koulis has been around for the last three or four years. He’s Greek, and it’s sort of neo-Art Deco, very geometric, very strong uses of color, edgy, really modern. Bea Bongiasca with her enamel and ceramic pieces—
Sharon: How do you say that? Is she here?
Amy: Bea. I think she’s based in London but is Italian. She works at Central St. Martin’s. Alice Cicolini, also British, does extremely beautiful work with enamel. I think her work is going to be really collectable in the coming years. I think she has a strong point of view.
Sharon: Can I interrupt? What does that mean, a strong point of view? What does that mean to you?
Amy: It means singular and inimitable.
Sharon: You know it’s her when you see the piece of work.
Amy: Yes. It’s very singular and striking and absolutely inimitable. There’s a lot of borrowing of ideas that goes on in the jewelry industry. I think the people I’m mentioning here, their voices present themselves to me as something unique. You can’t replicate it; you’re not going to see that show up in some form on Amazon. Maggi Simpkins, we all fell in love with her in the Brilliant and Black exhibit at Sotheby’s. She did the most beautiful pink diamond ring. Everything is centered in these fan-like, feathered cocoons of gems. It’s very feminine and lavish and beautiful. So, Maggi Simpkins is someone, and then Studio Renn. My editor at JCK, Victoria Gomelsky, writes for the New York Times and she did a piece on them. She really has seen everything. They are part of an exhibit that is now ongoing at Phillips that Vivienne Becker curated. I think Studio Renn is a newcomer that is going to be sticking around for a while. Finally, there’s Fabio Salini, who’s also part of the Vivienne Becker capsule at Phillips. Those are just a few. It changes all the time, but the pandemic era has brought incredible work from the designers in our industry, and they are just now hitting their stride. After all that time creating and dreaming and ruminating, refining their voices, cultivating their Instagram audiences, getting feedback from buyers—now they’re out there in the world and ready to be embraced.
Sharon: What about pre-pandemic? Everybody’s at home in their living room thinking and designing, so I could understand why it’s emerging right now, but what about pre-pandemic? Do you see a big difference?
Amy: Yes, the industry has modernized considerably since the before times. The biggest difference is that a mom-and-pop jeweler in the middle of country who had a website but never updated it, they’ve gone in there, hired a firm, hired a chat bot, completely modernized. The pandemic era forced the industry to fast-track into the digital age. That is a huge, huge difference, making it so you are available to your customers, wherever they may be, whether that’s texting or someone dedicated to Instagram inquiries. A lot of this is being done on Instagram now, and that was not true in January 2020. Since jewelry emerged as a category that is a portable asset, it’s not a flash in the plan; it has staying power. It’s not like buying a trendy handbag, but using your discretionary income to buy jewelry became a thing and was embraced a lot of people during the pandemic as they were sparkle scrolling, as they call it, on their phones.
Sharon: I haven’t heard that term.
Amy: A lot of people used the time to upgrade their engagement rings and wedding bands, so the bridal industry saw a huge boost. The jewelry industry is really healthy right now, I think, in terms of sales, but what I have noticed is not everybody has a wedding band. Not everyone has a budget to upgrade to a big, giant, 20-carat eternity band, so I’m noticing a lot of brands creating price points under $1,500. They’re creating little capsules, creating diffusion lines, if you will, so a customer with modest means can have that same meaningful purchase, that same, “I’m investing and treating myself to something that will last, my first diamond bracelet or my first diamond pendant.” I’m seeing more of those opportunities at the retail level.
Sharon: That’s interesting. In terms of the emerging designers you’ve mentioned, is this trickling down to the rest of us who don’t have $15,000 to go out and buy a trinket tomorrow?
Amy: There’s definitely a spectrum. I think estate jewelry in general is so hot, and there are a gazillion ladies on Instagram. They’re moving delicate, little gold charms for $200 a pop. There’s so much. I hate the term low-hanging fruit, but there is so much attainable luxury out there at the regular-person level. If you’re the type to spend $200 on a bunch of drinks on a Saturday night, you can easily do that and buy yourself a beautiful paper clip chain estate piece on someone’s Instagram feed.
Also, even further than the art jewelry investment piece, there’s a run on pink diamonds, practically, and yellow diamonds were a big story coming out of JCK. That color, yellow, that bright, hopeful, joyful feeling that yellow presents, suppliers and manufacturers—cases were filled with yellow diamond engagement rings. A lot of people are talking about a potential uptick in yellow diamond engagement ring sales, both from the rarity of the investment angle and from the pure joy of it, the feeling that it gives. Also, there’s this idea that today’s young woman getting engaged doesn’t want anything to do with what her mother had. Any ring that remoted resembles that chunky, big, platinum, three-stone diamond ring from 1990, she wants something completely new and different feeling, and yellow diamonds fulfill that. They check that box. I have heard from some of my diamond tiara friends that people are buying very high-end and special loose, fancy-colored diamonds from an investment standpoint because it’s a portable asset and they are decreasing in supply. Like I said, there’s a whole spectrum of possibilities.
Sharon: It’s interesting you mention that diamonds are not so much in demand for young women getting engaged or getting married today. Sometimes I look at my diamond wedding ring, which is actually an upgrade from my first one, and I look at it and go, “This looks really dated.” What are you seeing in terms of what’s more contemporary or modern?
Amy: Here’s what everyone’s doing. Everyone is taking their old jewelry and up-cycling it, whether their old engagement ring, in your case, or they’re taking their grandmother’s engagement ring that was given to them and creating a whole new design and style. Heirloom stones are recast as something new and wearable. It could be an engagement ring; they could be breaking apart a clustered diamond pin and creating a “diamonds by the yard” style necklace. That is a huge trend right now because it also covers sustainability. You have this precious item in your possession, but it just isn’t your style. You have the materials to work with a designer to make it something new you can wear and enjoy. I feel like every independent designer I speak with nowadays has taken on commissions along those lines. Entire businesses are being built around that very concept of reimagining old jewelry.
Sharon: What about non-diamond wedding rings or engagement rings? Are other stones being used besides yellow diamonds?
Amy: I think we can anticipate a sapphire—I hate to say a sapphire boom because jewelry is slow and static, but blue sapphires. The Crown season four, I think, came out last winter, and it centered around Diana. There’s a whole generation of young women out there that were not clued into that story, and that blue sapphire engagement ring from Garrard was back in the spotlight again, even though Kate Middleton wears it as hers now. Anyway, there’s a whole generation of consumers for whom Diana’s blue sapphire ring was not on their radar. Then there is a movie coming out with Kristen Stewart in the starring role called “Spencer” that will center on Diana. I think that’s going to put the blue sapphire engagement ring on people’s radar again. Honestly, any time the royals or once-were royals are in the news—and they are—it definitely trickles down into consumer appetite.
Sharon: Amy, you’ve seen a lot from both sides of the desk. You’ve seen the big people; you’ve talked to people on the business side; you’ve talked to the designing side, the creative side, and I know you’ve written several books and things like that. If you had to distill it down into one book or a couple of paragraphs, what would you say are the main challenges? How would you advise people like this?
Amy: I love to give advice. I’m solicited in other ways. To retailers, I would say listen to your customers and tune into the social climate. The customers are giving you information you need every time they set foot in your store. Ask them what they like, what they’re into. There’s an adversarial relationship, almost, between the younger consumers of today and the old-school jewelry retailer, and change is necessary. Try to learn and understand them. If they want a salt and pepper diamond ring and you think it’s ugly, that’s fine, but you still have to find it for them if you want to retain them as a customer. I think a willingness to change is vital; a willingness to modernize is vital on the part of the retailer. Diversity and inclusion and social justice is very important to the majority of young consumers. You can look at what Zales and Kay Jewelers and these mainstream guys are doing for clues; the same with Tiffany. You can look at what they’re doing. That’s all informed by serious market research that is telling them that today’s younger consumer prioritizes diversity and inclusion, and they’re watching companies to see if what they’re doing aligns with their values. I’m certainly not the first person to say that, but it is critical; it’s essential.
To designers, I would say please use whatever discretionary funds you have, again, towards shooting your jewelry with a professional photographer. That is the most important thing. Don’t worry about a campaign. Don’t worry about hiring models. Literally just still-life photos and giant, big files are what you should be spending your money on. Stay true to your signature and try to be as authentic as possible, but also take advice. Just don’t design in a vacuum. Look at what’s out in the world and try to see where your point of view fits in. The market is saturated with a lot of same old, same old. How can you break through that? How can you break through the basic and come at it in a different way? It could be as simple as everybody knows alphabet charms are popular and wonderful and a new jewelry wardrobe essential, so what’s your thought going to look like? How’s your thought going to reflect who you are? What does the alphabet charm reflect for you, and what’s the story? Did you see it on a poster for a 1960s Grateful Dead show? Did you go to an exhibit and see an illuminated manuscript? There are so many ways, I think, to get inspired and find your voice.
Sharon: That’s great. That’s very good advice for both sides of the desk. Amy, thank you so much for being here today.
Amy: Thank you, Sharon, it’s a pleasure. I’m always happy to talk about jewelry and give my opinions.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Amy Elliott
Amy Elliott is a writer, editor and brand storyteller who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion, and is fluent in other lifestyle categories, including food, weddings and travel.
As a former staff editor at The Knot, Bridal Guide, Brides Local Magazines + Brides.com and Lucky, Amy is known for delivering high-quality editorial content across a variety of print and digital media. After recently serving as the Engagement Rings Expert for About.com, Amy joined the freelance staff of JCK as its All That Glitters columnist, while contributing articles about jewelry trends, estate and antique jewelry and gemstones to its prestigious print magazine.
Amy also serves as the Fine Jewelry Expert for The Bridal Council, an industry organization composed of luxury bridal designers, retailers and media, and her byline has appeared in Gotham, Hamptons, DuJour, Martha Stewart Weddings, GoodHousekeeping.com and more.
Additional Resources:
Examples of posts that reflect the intersection of jewelry with history, culture and current events:
Bob Goodman Wants Jewelers To Join Him in Disrupting the Status Quo:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/bob-goodman-jewelers-disrupting/
The Ten Thousand Things x Met Museum Collaboration Is Coming In Hot:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/ten-thousand-things-x-met-museum/
Go “Sea” Some Serious Silver Treasures At Mystic Seaport Museum:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/sea-as-muse-silver-seaport-museum/
New Jewelry From Rafka Koblence, Olympic Wrestler Turned Designer:https://www.jckonline.com/editorial-article/new-jewelry-from-rafka-koblence/
Transcript:
As author of the “All That Glitters” blog for JCK, Amy Elliott has a front row seat to the jewelry industry’s up-and-coming trends and designers. She’s also been lucky enough to work with some of these designers, helping them refine their brands and create stories that resonate with customers. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what designers and retailers should do to stay relevant with younger consumers, how art jewelry has influenced high jewelry, and what jewelry trends to watch out for in the coming months. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, our guest is Amy Elliott, founder of Amy Elliott Creative. She is a writer, editor and thought leader who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion which makes most of us envious. That’s a great profession. She is a contributing editor to the industry publication we all know, JCK, and writes the blog “All That Glitters.” We will hear all about her jewelry journey today. Amy, welcome to the program
Amy: Thank you very much for having me, Sharon. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. I’m always envious of people who are writing about jewelry or makers and designers. That’s fabulous. I have no talent in that area, so when I hear about people writing, I think, “Wow, it’s great.” Tell us all about your jewelry journey.
Amy: My jewelry journey is a mix of personal and professional. I’m an avid collector of jewelry. My mother is a big collector of jewelry, so from age 12 on, jewelry was always a part of my life and something that I gravitated to. As a professional, jewelry has been central to my career as a journalist and a writer since the very beginning, starting at The Knot in 1999.
Sharon: The Knot being the bridal publication.
Amy: Yes. At that time, it was just a website. I was there when they moved into magazines. I helped coordinate the gowns and accessories for fashion shoots and got a taste of engagement rings and diamonds, the 4Cs. That was my first introduction to jewelry on a professional level. Then I took a job at Bridal Guide Magazine, which is a leading print publication still around, privately owned. I was a senior editor there. I had many duties, but one of them was to produce a jewelry column, and that is when my education in jewelry really began. I began forming connections within the industry to educate myself on the 4Cs, pearl buying, colored gemstones. I’ve always been drawn to color, so that’s when I became a student, if you will, of gems and jewelry and how jewelry fits into conversations about fashion trends and cultural and social current events. That was when I really got into jewelry as a métier.
I was one of the founding editors of Brides local magazines, which was a Condé Nast publication of regional wedding magazines that no longer exists. Because we were short on staff, I would call in all the jewelry for our cover shoots. Even though I had a leadership role there—I was the executive editor—I also made it part of my job to call in jewels for art cover shoots. I kept that connection, and then on the side I would freelance for luxury publications. It became the thing that I liked to do the best. I loved the people in the industry. I would always learn something. No matter what I was doing or writing about, I would learn something new, and that’s still true to this day. There’s always something for me to learn. I discovered that jewelry is the perfect combination of earth science, history, culture, and straight-up beauty and aesthetics. It’s a very gratifying topic to cover. I love the way it intersects with current events and with, as I mentioned, the fashion conversations at large.
Sharon: When you went to Vassar, did you study writing? They’re not known for their metalsmithing program, so did you study writing with the idea “I just want to write”?
Amy: Pretty much. I was always pretty good at writing and facility with language, so I went there knowing I’d be an English major. For my thesis I wrote a creative writing thesis; it was like a little novella. I’ve always had a love affair with words and expression of thoughts, and I loved reading, so I knew I would do something that had to do with words and writing. I actually graduated thinking I would be a romance novelist. That was what I thought I would do. Then, of course, I started out in book publishing, and I found it really, really slow and boring, just painfully slow, and I decided perhaps that wasn’t for me. Then I took a job in public relations. I really loved the marketing aspect of it and the creativity involved. Of course, it involved a lot of writing.
Eventually I decided I wanted to be on the editorial side of things once and for all. I had always written for the high school newspaper. I had done an internship at Metropolitan Home Magazine in the design department in college, so magazines were always lurking there and were always the main goal. I ended up there; it just took a couple of years for me to get there. Once I did, I knew I wanted to work for a women’s magazine. I love things that would fall under the heading of a women’s magazine, relationships, fashion. The wedding magazines I worked at were a great fit for me because it’s pure romance and fantasy and big, beautiful ball gowns and fancy parties. It was a good fit for me, and I was able to take that and home in on jewelry as a particular focus elsewhere in my career after those first years.
I will say Vassar is known for its art history program. I was not a star art history pupil by any means, but I took many classes there. I find myself leaning on those skills the most as a jewelry writer, looking closely at an object, peeling back the layers and trying to understand what the artist or jeweler is trying to say through jewelry, much like you would with a painting from the Renaissance. So, I am grateful for that tutelage because I found myself drawing on it often, even though I was definitely a B- student in art history.
Sharon: It seems to me if you’re not going to be a maker, if you’re not going to be a metalsmith or a goldsmith or if you’re not going to be selling behind the counter, it seems like art history is a fabulous foundation for jewelry in terms of the skills you draw on.
Amy: Absolutely. Historical narratives and every historical event that’s going on in the world can be—you can look at jewelry from the past and tie it into something that was going on, whether it was the discovery of platinum or the discovery of diamonds in South Africa. It all intersects so beautifully. Vassar taught me to think critically; it taught me how to express myself, to develop a style of writing that I think is still present in my writing today. I always try to get a little lyricism in there. A good liberal arts foundation took me into the world of magazines and eventually digital publishing. I stayed with Condé Nast for a long time. Then I went to Lucky Magazine and was on staff there for a little over a year and a half. I was exposed to fine jewelry on a more fashion level, like the kind cool girls would wear, gold and diamond jewelry that wasn’t big jewels by Oscar Heyman. It was a different category, but still within that universe. That was a great education, to look at fine jewelry in a fashion context. They had layoffs in 2012 and I was forced to strike out on my own, but I’ve been freelance ever since, doing a mix of copywriting for fashion brands and writing for various publications. I’ve been writing for JCK since 2016.
Sharon: Wow! Amy, we want to hear more about that, but just a couple of things. First, thank you to our subscribers. I want to thank everybody who’s gotten in contact with me with their suggestions. I love to get them, so please email me at [email protected] or DM me @ArtsandJewelry. Also a big shoutout to Kimberly Klosterman, whose jewelry is featured in the exhibit “Simply Brilliant: Jewelry of the 60s and 70s” at the Cincinnati Art Museum. It’s on now through February 6. You can listen to our interview with Kimberly on podcast number 133. Now, back to our interview with Amy. Amy, what I like about what you said—you expressed it very well—is the intersection of jewelry with current events and history. I know I always have difficulty explaining to people why I’m interested in jewelry or jewelry history. They think, “Oh, you like big diamonds,” and it’s hard to explain how it tells you so much about the period.
Amy: Yes, I think acknowledging how global our industry is and learning about different cultures has been so critical to becoming fluent in this world and the gemstones that come from Afghanistan or Ethiopia or Mozambique. Just learning about the sapphires from Sri Lanka—it’s so global and all-encompassing. I read the Cartier book, and their story is so fascinating. I am interested particularly in World War II and how that impacted the jewelry industry, how Susan Beltran saved the business of her lover, how the events of World War II Germany impacted Paris and the jewelers there, how the Cartiers would do the birds in the cage and all that stuff. I think you can look at historic jewels and see reflected back at you current events and moments in our history.
Sharon: Definitely. I imagine when you look at something, it’s not just seeing the jewel, but you’re seeing the whole background behind it, how it sits within that context, that nest of history with World War II and platinum. It’s an eye into the world.
Amy: Even someone like Judith Leiber, who fled Hungary during wartime and became this amazing designer of handbags in New York. So many of the jewelers that are leaders and pillars of our industry came here because of the pogroms in Russia and Eastern Europe. It really does intersect with what was happening in the world. The jewelry industry is a microcosm of all those events, even going to back to the Silk Road and Mesopotamia and the Armenians and the Ottoman Empire. It is a rich tapestry of moments. Historic jewels in particular can give you insight, not just into an artist’s vision, but into a moment of time.
Sharon: I didn’t know that about Judith Leiber; that’s interesting. You left Lucky Magazine and opened your own shop. You do a lot of writing and editing. How do the graphics also play into it? Do you art direct? If clients come to you and say, “I need a brochure,” I assume you’re doing all the copy and editing, but do they bring you the photos? How does that work?
Amy: My background in magazines definitely has given me a pretty robust skillset in terms of working with graphic designers and art directors, conveying ideas and working with them to solve problems. You do emerge with a sense of the visuals, and a taste level is part of it when you’re covering fashion and jewelry and things related to style. So yes, I think as a copywriter, one of the things I bring to the table is that I will be able to advise you on the quality of your photos and your look book on the crops, on the model even. Also there’s the hierarchy of information; that’s definitely a form of direction. It’s not very glamorous, but I’m good at understanding how things should be stacked and arranged on a page in terms of hierarchy of messaging. I do have a lot of opinions, I guess, about what looks good and what doesn’t. If that feedback is welcome, I’m always happy to share it. Sometimes a client will send me an email for review, and I know they just want to get it out, but I’m like, “No, this is spelled wrong, and the headline should be this, and this needs to go there,” and I’ll mock it up on the screen as to where things should go. The best editors and writers, especially when you’re dealing with jewelry and fashion and beautiful objects, you have to have a strong sense of the visual.
Sharon: I know sometimes clients push back, but I assume they come to you because they want your opinion or they’d do it themselves, right?
Amy: Yes. My favorite clients to work with are emerging designers who are just getting out there. They have so many ideas, so many stories to tell, and I help them refine their vision, refine their voice. For many of them, it’s the first time they’re coming to market, and I can help them present themselves in a professional way that will be compelling to buyers and to media.
Sharon: What type of issues are potential clients coming to you for? Is there an overarching—problem might not be the right word—but something you see, a common thread through what they’re asking?
Amy: There are a number of things. One could be a complicated concept that needs to be explained, something technical like the meteorite that’s used in a wedding ring. “We have all this raw material from our supplier. How do we make that customer-facing? How do we make that dense language more lively and easier to digest?” Sometimes it’s collection naming. “Here’s my collection. Here are the pieces. Can you give them a name? Can you help name this product?” Sometimes it’s, “We want to craft a story around this,” and I’m able to come at it with, “I know what the story is here. We’ve got to shape you to be able to present that story to the world, whether it’s a buyer or an editor.”
Usually there is some sort of a concept that is involved; it just hasn’t been refined and it’s not adjustable. They’re so focused on the work and the design vocabulary, they need someone to come in and look at it holistically and figure out how they’re going to package this as an overarching idea. Sometimes it’s as simple as, “I need to write a letter. These are the things I want to get across to buyers or new accounts or an invitation to an event.” I can take these objectives, these imperatives, and spin them into something compelling and customer-facing and fun to read. It’s a mix of imaginative work and down-and-dirty, let me take this corporate document and finesse it and make it more lively and more like something a consumer would want to read on a website.
Sharon: They must be so appreciative. Their work may be beautiful, but they have to condense it to say what they are trying to express and get that across to somebody who may not know the language, so somebody wants to pick it up and say, “Oh, that’s really interesting.”
Amy: Storytelling is a big buzzword right now in the industry, but it’s so important. The marketplace is so crowded, and it’s not enough to be like, “I have a new collection of stacking rings,” or “I’ve expanded these rings to include a sapphire version.” You have to come up with some sort of a story to draw in an audience, and then you can use that story on all of your touchpoints, from social media to your email blasts to a landing page on your website. There are a host of jewelry professionals out there that can advise in different ways, to help you get into stores, to help you with specific branding, refining your collection from a merchandising standpoint. There are so many professionals out there that specialize in that, but I think what I bring to the table is knowledge of the industry and a facility with language. It’s almost like I’m a mouthpiece for the designer or the corporate brand and a conduit to the consumers’ headspace.
Sharon: It sounds like a real talent in the areas where there are gaps in what a designer and retailer/manufacturer needs. Telling the story may be a buzzword, but it’s words, and you have to use the right words. Tell us about the JCK. You write the blog “All That Glitters,” which is very glittery. It’s very attractive. Tell us about it.
Amy: Thanks. I was JCK’s center for style-related content. Obviously, there’s no shortage of breaking news and hard business news, because JCK’s first and foremost a serious business publication.
Sharon: With the jewelry industry.
Amy: With the jewelry industry. I’ve evolved the blog to be—my favorite things to cover are new collections. I like to interview designers about inspirations. I like to show a broad range of photos from the collection. A lot of it is just showing collections that I love. Maybe I’ve seen them at Fashion Week; maybe I saw them at the JCK shows or at appointments in the city; maybe I saw something on Instagram. I love to cover design collaborations. Those are one of my favorites things to cover: how two minds can come together to create a new product, like when Suzanne Kalan partnered with Jonathan Adler to do a line of trinket trays. I am interested in cultural events. I like to cover museum exhibits. I covered the Beautiful Creatures exhibit at the Natural History Museum. Because I live in Connecticut, I was able to make it up to Mystic Seaport. They have a beautiful collection of silver trophies by all the best makers, from Tiffany to Shreve, Crump & Low and Gorham. I was able to go up there and see that collection.
It’s a blog about culture. It’s a blog about things I love. I’ve written about TV shows that have to do with jewelry. I like the title “All That Glitters” because it gives me a lot of leeway in terms of what I can cover. I’ve written about writing instruments. Fabergé did a collaboration with whiskey brands and I wrote about that. I try to leave it open, but if there’s a strong, new, exciting collection, especially from a high jewelry brand—I’m going to be writing something on one from David Webb coming up. They just released a new collection called Asheville, inspired by his hometown. I like to do a deep dive into a designer story or to show a new collection. My colleague, Brittany Siminitz, does beautiful curations. Sometimes I’ll do curations, meaning a roundup of beautiful products that correspond to an overarching theme. I love to do those, but I am happiest when designers come to me with a new collection and something that people haven’t seen before. I particularly love discovering new voices and emerging designers that haven’t been featured in the press before, so I can be that first introduction.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cynthia Bach
Cynthia Bach has been a jewelry designer for more than four decades. After studying art in Munich, Germany, Cynthia received her BFA degree in art and jewelry making from McMurry University in Abilene, Texas, where she met and apprenticed bench jewelry making with master jeweler Jim Matthews. In 1989 Jim and Cynthia were recruited by Van Cleef & Arpels in Beverly Hills to run design and fabrication of the jewelry department. In 1991 Cynthia launched her own collection with Neiman Marcus nationwide.
She has been the recipient of numerous awards from the jewelry industry including the coveted International Platinum Guild Award, the Spectrum Award, and the Couture Award. Her designs have been recognized and awarded by the American Gem Trade Association.
She is internationally known and respected and in 2014 was invited to Idar-Oberstein, Germany to judge the New Designer Contest. In 2015 her work was part of the international traveling exhibition “The Nature of Diamonds” organized by the American Museum of Natural History and sponsored by DeBeers. An important piece of her work resides in the permanent collection of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C.
In 2019 Cynthia’s jewelry was featured in Juliet de la Rochefoucauld’s “Women Jewellery Designers”, a magnum opus book of women jewelry designers throughout history.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
18 karat yellow gold Crown Collection maltese cross crown ring with rubies, emeralds, sapphires, and diamonds
18 karat yellow gold Flower Bouquet Collection flower hoop earrings with multi-colored gemstones
18 karat yellow gold Gitan Collection, filigree paisley's with diamonds and rubies
18 karat yellow gold Royal Charm Bracelet
Transcript:
Cynthia Bach has loved jewelry for as long as she can remember. That enthusiasm is what helped her land an apprenticeship with master jeweler (and later, her husband) Jim Matthews, scored her a 25-year partnership with Nieman Marcus, and continues to fuel her desire to create timeless yet innovative designs today. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the old-world techniques that inspire her designs; her experience working with Van Cleef & Arpels, Neiman Marcus, and red-carpet stylists; and her advice for budding jewelry designers. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’m thinking about a few things. First of all, that Fabergé and Schlumberger had an eye, whether it was for a shape or they were just extremely creative. What do you feel you have an eye for?
Cynthia: I have an eye for shapes. My jewelry designing is classical and lyrical. I’m not doing post-modern shapes like the wearable art exhibit we saw. I think of my designs as more refined. I love to design jewelry for women. When I’m designing for them, I see what their style is and I want to design around their style, which is not necessarily the normal thing to do. When I design a piece of jewelry, I usually design something I want to wear. Having worked with Nieman Marcus for 25 years, after starting my collection with them, there was always fashion. Every season, I would follow the fashions that so that even though my designs are very classical, they would also be very now. What are the girls wearing now? What are the trends now? But I still wanted it to be timeless and able to be worn a hundred years from today.
Sharon: Have you ever found yourself altering your designs or pieces because you’ve sketched something out and you say, “Oh, that’s too small or too large for what people want today. That’s not what people want”?
Cynthia: I kind of design what I want to design, but because I’ve worked so hands-on doing trunk shows across the country and working with women, I know everyone has a different size earlobe and a different shape face. I will take a design and I’ll make a smaller version and a medium and a bigger to go with the woman’s style. Not every woman can wear a big earring. In that sense, I just take my design and make it more adaptable for different people. I usually design what I want to design because I figure if I want to wear it, other women want to wear it, too.
Sharon: It sounds like that’s been successful for you for decades. You said that you design around a woman’s style. I guess what I want to know is if you saw a woman wearing jewelry that’s very different from yours. Let’s say modernist, angular, large. What do you mean you design around that?
Cynthia: To clarify that a little bit more, I would say the last 25 years where I’ve really been a designer, I’ve worked with a lot of stylists for red carpet dressing. We would work with clothing designers, like when I did Cate Blanchett in the beautiful Gautier. I made the body jewelry—they’re Indian-inspired—and she did the big chain down her back. I remember a lot of beautiful gowns coming in, and even though I would use my jewelry, I always wanted the jewelry to make a statement. To me, it wasn’t all about the dress, but also to make a statement for the wearer. So, when I say I like to design around a woman’s style, a lot of that came from working with stylists and doing red carpet things.
It also comes from working hands-on with women at the Nieman Marcus stores. They would come in and have a dress they were wearing to the ball, and they needed jewelry to go with it. You can’t just throw anything on them. It’s got to go with the dress; it’s got to go with them. I find the way I wear jewelry is I like very big jewelry. I like big rings, big earrings, lots of chains. I layer everything. There are women out there that are much more—they love an exquisite piece of jewelry, but they’ll wear one exquisite earring and one necklace.
Sharon: What’s wrong with them?
Cynthia: You’re another person who’s very theatrical in your jewelry.
Sharon: I understand what you’re saying, but I’m surprised to hear you say that because your jewelry seems very feminine and dainty. I can see how you can stack the rings and everything, but I’m surprised to hear you say you like larger jewelry. That’s all.
Cynthia: I mean when I’m dressing for myself. This is where I’m making pieces for other people. My collection I’m working on now is a lot of flowers with beautiful fall colors, orange and yellow, sapphires and reds and purples, all these colors together. I will take all those chains and wear like seven of them together, whereas if I were selling them in a store, maybe a woman would buy one chain. Ultimately, we have to make a living, but for me, selling my jewelry is my living. To some extent, you have to keep in mind who your audience is as well. Again, I can’t always dictate the way I want them to look.
Sharon: I was just thinking how impressive it is that you’ve been selling to Nieman Marcus for so long. That’s a long run, and hopefully it continues for another 20 years. There are so many people who sell for one season and never see it there again.
Cynthia: Like I told you, Sharon, I made up my mind at the age of 12 that this is what I wanted to do. My determination came from—it was very difficult being a woman. When I sold my collection to Nieman Marcus in 1991, we were brought out to Beverly Hills with Van Cleef & Arpels. The family-owned business went off to sell their company, so we were basically without a job. That was my window for, “O.K., you have nothing to lose. You’re out of a job. If you want to be a jewelry designer, you’re going to do it now.” Well, that was on Monday. On Friday, I called Nieman Marcus in Dallas and flew out there.
I had been making a little crown collection, because I had made a crown for a client for an anniversary present back in 1982. It was a design of a Trifari crown pin that he gave to his wife. He said, “I bought this for my bride in 1955, and now I can afford it in emeralds, rubies and diamonds.” It was a little Trifari crown pin, and I made her this little crown and she wore it every day on a chain. I just thought it was the neatest thing. This was in 1982, and I said, “This is what I’m going to do. I’m going to make crowns.” So, I started researching them at the library, all the different heraldic imagery and all the crowns throughout the world that kings and queens wore, and I brought them to everyone, to the masses. I had presented them to Van Cleef & Arpels, and they were like, “We would never do a crown,” but I made them anyway.
After we lost our job at Van Cleef & Arpels, five days later, I flew to Nieman Marcus. I had 13 crown brooches. Some were fantasies; some were actual miniature crowns from Saudi Arabia or Persia, the English crown. I talked to the buyer, who was actually the president of the jewelry department at that time. In 1991, they did not have a developed jewelry department. There were jewelry designers; there were fashion designers, but jewelry was very generic, so they didn’t have creatives in jewelry that stood out. I said to them, “You need a stable of jewelry designers like you have in fashion.” The same thing I did with my husband, “I want to make jewelry. Here are my crowns.” I was all enthusiastic about it, and he was like, “I’ll give you $6,000,” and I said, “I’ll take it.”
That launched my career, but it was in 1991 when, like I said, there weren’t really any established jewelry designers at the time. I think Nieman’s had Jean Mahie and Henry Dunay was there, but that was it. So, they grandfathered me at that time, and it just took off. The 90s and the 2000s was a wonderful time to be in the jewelry business. It was a wonderful time to be in business in anything in 2000, before 2006. So, that is how I got into it. I don’t know that I could do something like that in 2021. It’s always timing.
Sharon: That’s true. Do you think you couldn’t do that because it’s not possible to call Nieman Marcus today and say, “I want an appointment with the buyer”?
Cynthia: With 13 pieces? No, I think because the competition now is steep. Women are more independent now. In 1991, it was still hard as a woman to head a company and to be taken seriously as being able to run a company. Even though I worked with my husband, I called the collection Cynthia Bach because it was a time for women when if they did not stick up for themselves and be a little more aggressive and persistent, they would disappear. I guess I’m a feminist, I don’t know. But at that time, I had to fight really hard. I worked with a lot of men and good old boys. The jewelry industry was made up of men. It was a whole different time, and Nieman Marcus, at that time, was still family-owned as well. It was small. Now, it’s become much bigger, more investors, owners, more corporate, so I don’t think you can start with 13 pieces. I think you have to have a pretty big collection to move forward, and a business plan.
Sharon: Right, it sounds you started the seeds of—
Cynthia: A revolution, a jewelry revolution!
Sharon: Really. Because when you think about Nieman’s today, the jewelry department is so well-developed in terms of all the different designers.
Cynthia: Yes.
Sharon: I was just going to ask you. We both attended a panel at Bonhams on wearable art jewelry. I was asking what attracted you, because your jewelry is so different.
Cynthia: I am very much interested in jewelry history, jewelers throughout history, and the whole evolution of jewelry in any form. I love the silver jewelry that came out of Mexico. I love the period of the 30s and 40s. Like I said before, that is when casting was developed, and that is when jewelry was in a more industrial period, the shapes and the forms, the industrial revolution. Jewelry parallels music and history and art and fashion, so all of that interests me, and it doesn’t just have to be my type of jewelry. I was very fascinated with the jewelry of the particular artists that I learned about through the Bonhams exhibit, the wearable art, the Crawford Collection. I learned about these artists I really didn’t know about, and that was exciting.
Sharon: Was there something in particular that called out to you, a designer or something a panelist said?
Cynthia: I really loved the work of Art Smith. I think he worked in New York, and it was sculpture. His jewelry was sculpture, body sculpture. There were also some Native American Indian jewelers from the 30s and 40s that did lapidary work, the interesting turquoise with wood and the bracelets that were so colorful and beautiful. Some of the lapidary work they did was very now, like that guy that did the space travel bangle. There was one necklace I just fell in love with, and it’s from William Spratling. It was a big necklace with little beads, and I thought to myself, “What a fabulous design! That design would look so good with my filigree beads that I do.” I’ve always loved bib-style necklaces. A lot of times when I look at jewelry, I’ll see my piece of jewelry incorporated in some of the shapes or designs. It’s all very visual to me, the bibs.
Sharon: Those are fabulous pieces, and a broad spectrum too. Go on.
Cynthia: I was just going to say relatively unknown artists. It was so refreshing to have Bonhams bring these out to the public awareness.
Sharon: Yes, I hope we see a lot of more of it. It was nice.
Cynthia: Me, too.
Sharon: Since you’ve been designing for so long, what do you think motivates you today that’s different than what motivated you decades ago, when you first started?
Cynthia: Right now, I’m working with more color. I love colors mixed together. Like I told you, I’m working a lot with flowers. I think because history and fashion play such an important part in my designing, I look at the kids, what they wear now, harkening back to the 1980s. I feel myself very influenced right now by 80s jewelry. I feel like it’s also intertwined, like I said, with music and art and fashion and jewelry. They work together. During the Blue Rider period, the abstract expressionism with Kandinsky and Klee, you had music of that time that reflected it.
Creativity is what makes changes in the world, even though we repeat a lot of fashion. Some of what the kids are wearing is very unique. They wear a lot of body jewelry with tattoos and earrings that climb all the way up their ears. That is really new and fresh. Every generation is evolving into a new creative style. I think the depth of a designer is to keep coming out with new designs and to keep being creative. It’s paramount and important to me to constantly be coming out with new designs, and I get that influence from what’s going on in the world around me.
Sharon: You sound very open to seeing new things as opposed to, “Oh my God, look at that person with all those tattoos.”
Cynthia: It’s basically body art. Yeah, it fascinates me; purple hair, green hair.
Sharon: You can be very creative with hair and body art and all that.
Cynthia: Absolutely. It’s the time of personal style and expression now.
Sharon: Do you think it’s different now? People think of the 60s as being a time of personal art and expression. Do you think the 70s had less of that or the 80s had less of that?
Cynthia: I think every decade, every era has that. Even if you look at the Rococo and Baroque periods in France, where they had their powdered wigs and their beautiful couture, they were out of the box. The music was out of the box, and that’s how change happens in the world.
Sharon: I like that change happens through creativity. You can look at different ways of saying that. Is it through creativity in tech or is it creativity in fashion? I guess it’s everything.
Cynthia: Yeah.
Sharon: You mentioned that enjoy studying jewelry history. Do you think it’s important for jewelers and jewelry designers to be steeped in that, to know the history of jewelry, to see the trends through the ages? How important do you think that is?
Cynthia: I think it helps. It certainly helps me to visually look at a lot of different styles and see what’s been around for hundreds of years, but I don’t think it’s necessary for everyone. Some people are just creative, and they come out with their own unique style. I don’t know if you’ve looked at what Boucheron is doing now with this kind of glasswork. It’s like nothing I’ve ever seen before. It really is wearable art. They’re pushing the envelope as to jewelry and wearable art.
A lot of the young designers coming up now are especially working with the fashion houses, and the fashion houses are saying, “Hey, we need to incorporate some important jewelry with our fashion.” It’s unique. So, the answer to your question is I don’t know if it’s important to know jewelry history. I think the most important thing is to be forward and to come up with something creative that is unique and your own.
Sharon: What do you when you find your creativity has stalled? If you have writer’s block in terms of jewelry, what do you do?
Cynthia: In the past, I can say that when someone commissions me to do a piece of a jewelry or I have a new collection I want to come out with and I just don’t know what to do, sometimes I just put it in the back of my head and go around my business. It is haunting me in my head, and then all of a sudden, I’ll be sitting there and I’ll look at a chair or something. I’ll see a shape and a light goes off in my head, and that’s it; that’s the concept. It’s almost a subconscious process. This has happened with me time and time again. I’ll be sleeping and somehow something will hit me, “This is it.” Sometimes it takes a week or two. I don’t think it’s taken over once I make my mind up that I need something new over two weeks. It usually goes into my subconscious brain, and I guess my conscious brain is looking for ideas.
Sharon: That is the way it works. You’re meditating and something comes, or you’re in the shower. Exactly, it’s when you’re not looking. Cynthia, thank you so much for taking the time today to talk with us. This has been really enjoyable and fascinating. It’s great to talk with somebody who’s been through decades of jewelry design.
Cynthia: Does that make me old?
Sharon: No, it doesn’t.
Cynthia: The creative mind is never old. Creativity is always young.
Sharon: Yes, that’s definitely it. Thank you so much.
Cynthia: Thank you for having me. I enjoyed this very much, and I look forward to next time.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cynthia Bach
Cynthia Bach has been a jewelry designer for more than four decades. After studying art in Munich, Germany, Cynthia received her BFA degree in art and jewelry making from McMurry University in Abilene, Texas, where she met and apprenticed bench jewelry making with master jeweler Jim Matthews. In 1989 Jim and Cynthia were recruited by Van Cleef & Arpels in Beverly Hills to run design and fabrication of the jewelry department. In 1991 Cynthia launched her own collection with Neiman Marcus nationwide.
She has been the recipient of numerous awards from the jewelry industry including the coveted International Platinum Guild Award, the Spectrum Award, and the Couture Award. Her designs have been recognized and awarded by the American Gem Trade Association.
She is internationally known and respected and in 2014 was invited to Idar-Oberstein, Germany to judge the New Designer Contest. In 2015 her work was part of the international traveling exhibition “The Nature of Diamonds” organized by the American Museum of Natural History and sponsored by DeBeers. An important piece of her work resides in the permanent collection of the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, D.C.
In 2019 Cynthia’s jewelry was featured in Juliet de la Rochefoucauld’s “Women Jewellery Designers”, a magnum opus book of women jewelry designers throughout history.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
18 karat yellow gold Crown Collection maltese cross crown ring with rubies, emeralds, sapphires, and diamonds
18 karat yellow gold Flower Bouquet Collection flower hoop earrings with multi-colored gemstones
18 karat yellow gold Gitan Collection, filigree paisley's with diamonds and rubies
18 karat yellow gold Royal Charm Bracelet
Transcript:
Cynthia Bach has loved jewelry for as long as she can remember. That enthusiasm is what helped her land an apprenticeship with master jeweler (and later, her husband) Jim Matthews, scored her a 25-year partnership with Nieman Marcus, and continues to fuel her desire to create timeless yet innovative designs today. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the old-world techniques that inspire her designs; her experience working with Van Cleef & Arpels, Neiman Marcus, and red-carpet stylists; and her advice for budding jewelry designers. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. This is a two-part Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, our guest is multiple award-winning jewelry designer Cynthia Bach, who has been designing jewelry for 40 years. Her designs are in demand by celebrities and high-end jewelry showcases. She’s recognized for jewels that harken back to yesterday with a nod to the Renaissance. She is also included among an extraordinarily talented group of jewelry designers in the beautiful book “Women Jewelry Designers.” We’ll hear all about her jewelry journey today. Cynthia, welcome to the program.
Cynthia: Thank you, Sharon, for having me today. I’m very excited to be here.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you, and I’m looking forward to hearing about your jewelry journey. Tell us a little about that. Did you play with jewelry when you were young, or were you creative when you were young? Go ahead.
Cynthia: Sharon, since I was a little girl, I was very attracted to my mother’s jewelry and all the sparkly stones and the colors. I would take her costume jewelry apart and redesign it. I don’t know how old I was, very young, maybe six, seven, eight years old, and I always had this fascination with sparkly jewels. I can remember back in the day when W Magazine had the paper magazine that was like a newspaper, probably before a lot of people were born. We’re looking at probably the 80s. I remember looking at pictures of Paloma Picasso and Tiffany and Elsa Peretti and thinking, “I want to be a jewelry designer. I love jewelry.” Maybe I was 12, 13. That was in the back of my head.
Sharon: So, it was early on.
Cynthia: Early on. When I went to college, my grandmother, who was living in New York in a retirement home, wrote me a letter that said, “Cindy, make up your mind what you want to do because you have opportunities that I did not have as a woman.” She was born, I think, in the late 1800s, turn of the century. She said, “Decide what it is you want to do and do it.” I was taking art classes at the university, and I said, “I’m going to be a jewelry designer.”
We didn’t have a jewelry department, but I was determined. I went to the sculpture teacher and said, “I want to learn how to make jewelry,” and he said, “I’ve never taught jewelry, but if you get six students together, we’ll form a class.” I recruited six students and we made a class and learned together. We would do casting behind the art building in the sand, like the old, ancient art of sand casting, where we would put our wax in a coffee can and dig a hole in the dirt and then pour. At that time, I worked in brass and copper because silver was like what working in platinum would be to me today. That was the start of a passion for me that I pursued.
Sharon: You went to college in Texas if I recall.
Cynthia: Yes. My father was in the military. He married a war bride. He was in World War II, and he met my mother in Berlin during the bombing of Berlin and he brought her back. She was a war bride, but she loved living in Europe, so my father always asked to be stationed in Europe. I spent 13 years growing up in Germany. I did a year of college in Munich, Germany, before I went to Texas to finish my degree. My father was stationed in Texas then.
Sharon: How did growing up abroad in Germany influence you as a jewelry designer?
Cynthia: My mother really focused on culture more than anything. I don’t know why. She wanted us to be very cultured and well-rounded and to experience good food. She would take me to the Stuttgart Ballet, and she’d take me to Berlin and say, “You’re going to see the Berlin Opera. It’s the best opera in the world.” Living in Germany, we would travel every summer and go to Greece or Italy and go to museums and concerts. In Europe, it’s much easier for everyone to enjoy the culture, the opera, the ballets because it’s affordable to everyone. For $30, you can go to the opera. You don’t have to spend thousands of dollars to become a member. Everyone is more a part of culture there, and of course Europe is so cultured because it’s so old. It’s hundreds and hundreds of years old, so you have that sense of history and architecture and the castles. It was a very creatively fertile place for me to grow up. I do equate that with a lot of my jewelry designs and my love of art and culture.
Sharon: I can see the influence in your jewelry when you say that, because your jewelry has a lot that appears Renaissance-like, let’s say, and it has a granulation.
Cynthia: Yes, I think it has a very European look to it. In 1991, when I officially became my own jewelry designer, creating my own vision and designs, it was based on medieval history and Gothic and Renaissance and crowns and all the symbolism I researched at the library. It really did harken back to a lot of what I saw growing up in Europe.
Sharon: What is it that still attracts you decades later? You still have that sense in your jewelry, which is so elegant in many ways, in terms of having that European feel. What is it that still attracts you today?
Cynthia: I think there are several things. One is that I look at a lot of jewelry books. One of my other passions is jewelry history and all the different designs throughout history: the 30s and 40s that were so industrial, when casting was invented back in the 40s, and the 50s, where jewelry could be made en masse, as opposed to when it was all hand-fabricated by the French and the Italians and the Russians. That was a turning point in jewelry.
What was the question? You were asking why it is still European. There are two reasons. One is I study art jewelry history. Art history, jewelry history, they’re all related. The other is my husband who is my partner, Jim Matthews, who I met during college because I needed someone to help me set a stone. It was an amethyst, and I didn’t have the equipment in college. I heard about this amazing jeweler downtown in Abilene, Texas. I went from Munich, Germany, to Abilene to Beverly Hills.
Anyway, he is just a genius. He started whittling wood when he was five years old. He ended up owning this jewelry store, and he would hand-carve the waxes making his own tools, which is very old-school and a dying art. I think it’s the combination of my love of jewelry history and my influences of being in Europe, and then his old-school jewelry carving and filigree and this amazing, intricate carving he could do. To me, it’s like Castellani or some of the Italian handwork that was done in the 18th century. I think it’s the combination of that that gives it that old-world Renaissance feeling.
Sharon: Can you tell us about the division of labor you have now? You work together, so how does that work? Do you design and then he takes the designs?
Cynthia: Yes, we have been working together since I was in college, so for over 40 years we’ve worked together. We were brought out here with Van Cleef & Arpels. He ran the design and fabrication of Van Cleef in Beverly Hills. He had 13 jewelers there on Rodeo Drive when it was still family owned. We were hired by Phillipe Arpels, and they brought us out here from Abilene, Texas, which to me was like, “Wow, we’ve been discovered. Now, we get to make jewelry for kings and queens in Hollywood.”
We’ve worked together so long that we kind of read each other’s minds. It’s like we have ideas, and he has ideas. We have all these ideas on paper I’m sketching. I’m constantly sketching; I’m constantly thinking, and then he will take that and carve it in a three-dimensional space. Sometimes it changes a bit from two dimensions to three dimensions, but it’s almost like we have one mind. Like if you cut us in half, maybe neither one of us could function. I hope not.
Sharon: You sort of touched on this, because you describe your career over and over. When I was reading about you and reading different biographies, you say that your career was a fairy tale. Can you tell me more about why you say that?
Cynthia: Yes, I often say that it was a fairytale for me. First of all, I’ve wanted to make jewelry since I was a very little girl, and then I had the opportunity to start jewelry in college. They actually have an official department now, and I feel like the six of us instigated that. At that time, I just wanted to be a bench jeweler. I wanted to sit down and hand-make pieces. That’s what I loved. I loved fabricating with metal, not so much casting.
Then I had the opportunity to start designing and working with Jim, and to have Van Cleef & Arpels call us and bring us out to Beverly Hills and start making jewelry for that milieu of clients. It was very Cinderella-like. My whole collection is about Cinderella. I even have a chain called the Cinderella necklace. It’s making everyone princesses and kings and queens and adorning your court, bedecking them with jewels. I don’t know if it’s because I’m creative and an artist, but I go into a fantasy when I’m designing. It’s a fantastical world. It doesn’t have anything to do with the day to day, but that is what creativity and art is all about.
Sharon: Wow! It sounds like a dream.
Cynthia: Well, it’s not always a dream. I call it a fairytale journey. I didn’t think when I was a young girl, and even when we owned our own store in Abilene and then went to Van Cleef & Arpels, I didn’t think I would actually be my own jewelry designer, Cynthia Bach, with my own vision, making my own jewelry. To me, that was like, “Wow!” That’s what I always wanted to do and now I’m doing it. But it wasn’t always easy because it’s hard. It’s a hard business. When Nieman Marcus bought my collection, it’s very demanding and competitive. There were many times where I wanted to throw in the towel, but I kept pursing, persistent, persistent. You get your obstacles in life. I think the most important thing, if you really want something, is to be persistent about it and never give up. It is a fairytale, but there are a lot of hard knocks.
Sharon: It sounds like that’s what you would tell somebody starting out in the field, that they have to overcome the obstacles.
Cynthia: Yes, because anytime you’re starting something, any vision you have, the beginning especially is going to be one obstacle after another. You need to break through it.
Sharon: When you graduated, did you work with your husband-to-be before you married him and then the two of you had a store?
Cynthia: Yeah, when I met him—Jim’s about 13 years older than I was, so I think I met him when I was in my mid-20s going to college studying jewelry. I went to his shop, and I was very enthusiastic about how much I loved jewelry and wanted to be a jeweler and make jewelry. Two weeks later, he called me and asked if I would like to work in his trade shop. He also had a trade shop that was doing repairs and sizings and setting stones and casting jewelry, which was probably my best education because it was all basic, hands-on making jewelry. One of the things I am really proud of is that I started out making jewelry from the basic beginning onto now making fine jewelry. He had opened a jewelry store with some other investors, and I was apprenticing with him. After college, all the investors left. I don’t know why. Maybe it was me; I ran them all off.
Sharon: Probably not.
Cynthia: We were the only two people left owning the jewelry business, but we were really the jewelers in it anyway. They were all businesspeople, and we were creative people. So yes, he opened the store before I finished college, and then after I finished college we worked together for three or four years before we married.
Sharon: It’s impressive that you say you were a bench jeweler before you were a designer because there are not many designers that can say that.
Cynthia: That’s very true. Jewelry’s one of the fields in art that you can actually sit and hand-make the pieces yourself and call yourself an artist, or you can just be a designer and have a collection made by a shop somewhere. Back in the old days, to be a jeweler or a designer, you had to actually make jewelry; you had to actually be a jeweler. But what also sets jewelry apart is the creative. You look at Fabergé, he had a whole shop of artisans working for him, and he just had this vivid, fabulous imagination making some of the most brilliant jewelry in the world. The creative is, to me, one of the most essential parts to a great piece of jewelry.
Schlumberger had the creative. He didn’t sit down and make jewelry himself, but he knew the shape of a woman’s ear, and he would make this earring that would set his jewelry apart because of the shapes. He had such an eye for shapes. I always thought to myself, “Ultimately, what is jewelry? It is a beautiful shape to make a woman look beautiful.” That’s not necessarily true, but that’s how I look at jewelry when I’m designing it. How the wearer going to look in this piece of jewelry? How is it going to make her feel beautiful and look beautiful and enhance her beauty?
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’m thinking about a few things. First of all, that Fabergé and Schlumberger had an eye, whether it was for a shape or they were just extremely creative. What do you feel you have an eye for?
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lisa M. Berman
Lisa M. Berman is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe.
Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications.
Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion.
Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils.
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Photos:
Lisa M. Berman wearing Archival 18k gold plate PEBBLES Necklace by Robert Lee Morris, her own sterling silver pendant by K. Lamberti, Issey Miyake coat and holding a signed ARTWEAR Catalog (RLM). Photo by Daniel Oropeza NUE Magazine Holiday 2020 Model Neva Cole, Photo by Daniel Oropeza ICE Collar by Greg Orloff, 2018, $15,000 Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman NUE Magazine Holiday 2020 Feature article "Powerful Woman of Dissent" from the "Feel the Frill" Exhibition honoring RBG curated by L.M. Berman. Sculpture: LUX MAXIMUS, Winner of ARTPRIZE 2017 by Daniel Oropeza $350,000. Model Neva Cole wears Emancipation Collar by 2Roses, 2020, $1,500. Photo by Daniel Oropeza Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman Cover of IONA Magazine Model wears Beaded Galaxy by 3 Tribes, from our Timeless Measures Exhibition 2006, curated by Lisa M. Berman & Pamela McNeil 1 year collaboration with women from 3 tribes in Africa - elders teaching the younger generation how to bead. Cuffs (sterling Silver & Copper) by Tana Action IONA Magazine Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: “REVEALED” Collar $50,000 (worn to the EMMY Television Academy’s Governors Ball) and “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine, 2001. IONA Magazine Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: Earrings - 18k gold & aqamarine (NFS), “TRANSITION” Collar, 18k gold, Onyx, Aquamarine $20,000 and “GOLDEN” Cuff, 18k gold, $10,000, made in 2001. Niche Magazine - TOP RETAILER SPIKED, red collar (Collection of Myra Gassman) & Cuffs on left side by Michelle Ritter “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine. Bouquet Ring, Stainless steel & garnet by Wendy Gwen Hacker $800 Collaboration with Sculpture To Wear Designer Gina Pankowski & MOEN Facet manufacturer. Utlilitary into Wearable Art Cover of W Magazine - January Jones wears LATTICE necklace (oxidized Sterling Silver) by Gina Pankowski, $4,000 And Bridge Bracelet sterling silver by Sergey Jivetin, SOLD in Private Collection The images below are from a PHOTO shoot based in the music video Rico Mejia Photography Fashion Beauty Celebrity Lifestyle Mobile number: 323-370-0555 https://www.behance.net/ricomejia https://twitter.com/RicoMejiaFoto https://www.instagram.com/ricomejiaphoto/ Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes bResin and Diamond Bangle by Cara Croninger from 24K Show, 1979, $4,000 Citrus Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $650, and Bracelet $300 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry Vintage Earrings- acrylic, one of a kind by Frank & Anne Vigneri, 1984, $350 Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt Resin DROP earrings by Cara Croninger $200 REGINA Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $800 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Bracelet by Genos, NFS in collection of Julie Laughton Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt BLUE DROP earrings Teri Brudnak $98 HEDGEHOG Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $850 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Clear CUFF by Cara Croninger, NFS collection of L.M. Berman Cover of Vogue with Cherize TheronTranscript:
Lisa Berman, owner of art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear, has been a figure in the art jewelry world for over 20 years, and she has a wealth of insight to share with fellow jewelry lovers. For her second appearance on the Jewelry Journey Podcast, she talked about how she’s maintained relationships with hundreds of designers and collectors over the years, what advice she offers the designers she works with, and why art jewelry is coming into its own as a fine art collected by museums. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Berman. Although we share the same last name, I’m not related to Lisa; however, over the years she has become a friend and a trusted dealer. Lisa has been a guest on the show before. Today, we’ll have a wide-ranging discussion with less of a focus on a particular piece, more talking about her experience in the jewelry and fashion world. Per our practice, the podcast is audio only. We will be posting photos of many of the pieces Lisa mentions today on our website, which is JewelryJourney.com. This is also a two-part podcast, so please keep your eyes open for our second episode which will air later this week. Please make sure you’re a member of our jewelry community by subscribing to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. That way you can listen to both episodes hot of the presses, so to speak. With that, I’d like to welcome Lisa to the program.
Sharon: When you say editorial—you talked about editorial versus advertorial—what do you mean?
Lisa: Years ago, we had magazines like W and Vogue and Vanity Fair, and the word advertorial did not exist. You had true editorial, where you were a new designer, you were creating something different, you had a new statement necklace, and they wanted to feature it. By the way, the vernacular “statement jewelry” wasn’t in vogue 25 years ago. We talked about it. Now you see something on the cover and people talk about. From a marketing and selling point, it’s a statement piece. That’s something we were using in studio jewelry decades ago.
Let’s see, we were talking about editorial, working with creative directors of publications. You have a timeline that’s three months in advance because you didn’t have digital. You had film; you had slides; you had all these timelines that were completely different. Then publications changed. They had to find a way to stay afloat, to stay in business, and like any other business they said, “Look, if you buy an ad, we’ll promote you in an editorial article.” That’s why you have some galleries now charging artists to physically have their work on the walls, which is something we didn’t do, of course.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Then you have people like me who walk into a gallery—I didn’t know a lot—but depending on the gallery, they might pay to have their work on the wall. Having come from public relations, I immediately look at something to see whether they paid for that article or if it was chosen. I think it’s important to point out—people might say, “Well, it sounds dated to be talking about all this print stuff,” but that goes immediately online. All the print is immediately online. There may be some things that never make print that are online, but it’s important because whatever you see in print is going to be online.
Lisa: Well, I’ll tell you why it’s important and relevant. It actually goes back to catalogues and museums. I will get to museums in a second. As much as we want to save the planet and save paper and all of that, museums still demand catalogues for their major exhibitions. That’s an important part of collecting. An important part of an artist’s career is to have that physical catalogue, that tangible item that can be placed on a bookshelf, or talked about, or brought to a dinner party or a lecture series or whatever it may be. That’s really important. An editorial and a printed editorial are the same. Obviously, there are more online publications and it’s literally just flipping through the images.
For example, we just filmed a music video with Linda Hikel. We used a number of pieces from Sculpture to Wear in the music video. People loved it. They will use it for promotion, but she called me and said, “We want to capitalize on the fact that you brought such extraordinary work to the video. We want to capture those for editorial.” Then she called me and said, “We actually want to take it a step further. We’re thinking about a book,” so these are the conversations. Printed materials are not a thing of the past, thankfully; they’re an important element of documentation. That’s why I tell artists, when I’m on an artist’s tour or in their studio or we’re having a conversation, “Please, if you’re not a good note taker or you’re not good about keeping files, literally keep a box on your desk, and anything—a summary or a note or something in regard to that project—keep it in there. This is so important for telling the story for an exhibition in a museum or just a gallery or online show.”
Sharon: Lisa, you mentioned that makers, jewelers, artists don’t understand the role of a gallery. They think, “What am I paying you for?” in a sense. Tell us what your response to that is.
Lisa: I no longer have a physical, permanent location, but I do curate exhibitions. I will collaborate with fine art galleries or other locations to host exhibitions within their space. Even if a show is online, you still get the attachment of being in an exhibition that is part of Sculpture to Wear history and legacy. You have the exposure that I bring to that particular artist, whether it be through my website, through the newsletters I send out, through Art Jewelry Forum, through Indelible, which is my new column for older jewels. That’s under the umbrella of Artistar Jewels.
Sharon: Artistar Jewels?
Lisa: Artistar Jewels; I’ll tell you about that. Also, there’s the collector base. A lot of artists think they pick up the phone and it just happens. Well, it does in some instances. It happens because I’ve cultivated a relationship for five to eight to 10 years. Yes, I can ask for a favor. Yes, I can propose an idea and I will be taken seriously because there’s a track record of credibility. That’s important for artists to understand. I think a lot of them coming from major schools do understand that. That is something that’s part of their curriculum.
Sharon: You mentioned the importance of keeping all your sketches and notes and everything like that because it helps the gallerist tell a story.
Lisa: Right. In my garage, I literally have over two decades of artists’ submissions. I know it sounds crazy. I have artists’ submissions that were done on slides and then zip drives. I don’t even know how I will convert those images, but I was so afraid of throwing away some of the most magnificent images I’ve ever seen and shown. Then each one of my exhibitions is in chronological order in a binder with the title and if there’s any traveling accompanying that exhibition. I think I learned that from my days in the fashion industry, because you had to document, document, document. That has served me well, because if you don’t document it, it never happened. So, you’ve got the documentation of the visuals and the notes and the advertising, and those are really important. Of course, now artists are saving all of that online, but hopefully there’s still something tactile to incorporate.
Sharon: It’s so important for credibility, whether it’s online or not. Ideally, it’s legitimizing it. I know for me, when I’m considering a piece of jewelry, if I know the artist has been in this museum or that museum or it’s in the writeup, that makes a difference to me. It weighs more in favor of purchasing something, that credibility.
Lisa: Yes, and that’s a whole round robin of a conversation. For example, the pieces I placed in LACMA on behalf Lynn Altman—unfortunately, Lynn is deceased. She was one of my favorite and dearest people on the planet. The three pieces that LACMA acquired were actually owned by me first, so it tells me I have a good eye, and it will also tell a collector I have a good eye. I know the process; I know what museums might be interested in. Mostly whatever I thought was interesting or fascinating, that’s what I would collect, but it does matter. It plays a role in credibility in the conversation, if I’m going to be working with a client for consulting, either with a one-on-one client, with an artist or with a company or museum. By the way, one of the misnomers with museums and donations is that people think, “Oh, I have these amazing pieces and I want to donate them.” That’s a very long process.
Sharon: From what I’ve heard, it’s a challenge.
Lisa: It’s a challenge because good museums will only accept pieces they can properly store. Of course, everyone wants them to be on display 100 percent of the time, but you can’t do it. That’s a conversation as well. You’ve got museums looking to acquire pieces, but they need funding for it. There’s a whole program with their donors and collectors; “How do we buy this?” Then there are pieces they want that are being donated to them, but maybe they’re going under renovation. Whatever the story may be, they want to make sure they’re going to acquire them and be able to sort them, so that during their downtime another museum doesn’t take them. It’s really testing out there.
Sharon: When I’ve heard of collectors who have donated their collections, it sounds like it’s been a long process. It’s been something that took years before they even decided to do it. They were being wooed, or they would ask the museum, “What should I buy? What would you like to see in the collection?” that sort of thing. It doesn’t sound like you just drive up and unload your station wagon.
Lisa: Oh, no.
Sharon: Do people have station wagons anymore?
Lisa: I don’t know. They’re called SUVs.
Sharon: Yes, SUVs.
Lisa: At least at a reputable location, that is definitely not the case. I think it’s a very exciting time because you have people creating these secondary market pieces, people auctioning them, collecting them, and then you have some of the most dynamic makers. What’s interesting to me is also the variations of ages from very young, 19 to 20, and then you have some jewelers I’ve met that were famous. They were architects or sculptors, and they wanted to change direction.
I’ve also talked to some of them in regards to ageism. They can’t apply for certain grants because they’re too old for one at 66. There are a lot of new conversations, like how we’ve had to learn to communicate with this new technology in Zoom. Life throws us curve balls and we go with it, and there are different trends, too. Brooches were so important probably 20 years ago and they still are, but you had it peak with the “Brooching it Diplomatically” book and Madeline Albright. For many years, large-scale collars were important. You have the Susan Lewin book that just came out and the exhibition book about rings. It's exciting. This field is constantly growing, constantly renewing itself, and I’m always inspired by it.
Sharon: I think we had a conversation once where you told me that brooches helped people segue to art jewelry. People could understand those and wear an avant garde brooch before they would wear something in their hair or an earring or something like that.
Lisa: Yes. People won’t believe this, but fashion also played a role in that. For example, 25, 30 years ago, you had women entering the workforce—I know I’m going to get backlash on this—but they were wearing these blazers. So, they can’t wear a large collar, plus they’re downplaying it. They still want to make a nonverbal statement, and the easiest thing is to put a large-scale piece on a lapel. The ideal wall to place a brooch was on a blazer. For example, I’m wearing a Miyake shirt today. You can’t put anything heavy through that. These blazers and large-scale shoulders, that was a perfect wall space to wear these pieces. For makers, these are the easiest way for them to literally make sculpture to wear. It was in a format that made sense to them, a smaller-scale sculpture that was on the left shoulder most often, but there are no rules now. Literally everything goes.
I happen to personally enjoy large-scale collars, just because I like to be hands free and my hands are always moving when I’m talking. I don’t wear a lot of rings. When I had much shorter hair, I wore giant earrings. Now I don’t, but it’s all about personal preference. It was also interesting with the gallery. Someone would see a necklace or a piece in a feature editorial in the Los Angeles Times or W or whatever it may be, and they would call and say, “That’s the piece I want.” Then, ultimately, they would come to the gallery and try it on, and they thought, “You know what? This just doesn’t sit right on me. I want to look at something else,” or we would specifically have the artist there to meet with them and talk with them.
Sharon: You’ve talked about the fact that relationships are so important. I know what you mean. It’s not just a matter of calling up Sally Smith who you’ve never talked to before and doesn’t know you from Adam, versus calling somebody you’ve worked with or who knows you always bring her great pieces or something interesting. I want people to understand what you do and why they should call you, because you have your fingers in so many different areas.
Lisa: You know what’s interesting about your statement, Sharon, is that I do. I am that person who will call anyone. I have the zero-fear factor.
Sharon: That’s great.
Lisa: Completely, because the fact is the worst they can say is no. I’m on a phone call and I present the idea. I think it makes sense, otherwise I wouldn’t call them or present them with the idea or exhibition or whatever it may be. I literally will pick up the phone, or I have a crazy idea and I will create a way to connect the dots. Most people think, “Oh my gosh! I would have never thought about that.” Often it's thinking about who’s in that particular trade industry, how can we possibly get sponsorships, what’s a different avenue. Let’s think out of the box. We always hear that: let’s think out of the box. I like to be creative, and I like communication. I literally will pick up the phone, and I always like to have a conversation.
So many people hide behind this little mouse on their computer or Facebook or Instagram or private messages. I say if we’re going to work together or any of this, I have to have a conversation. Let’s go on WhatsApp. If you’re in a different time zone, a different county—it doesn’t matter if they’re speaking Latvian and they’re mumbling through a translator, you just get their essence. That’s really important, especially now with the lack of human interaction. I’m always an advocate for having a conversation because you never know where it’s going to lead, that next step, that next unturned stone. You learn so much more when you have the conversation with the person.
Sharon: I always envy you people who have zero fear factor. I don’t fall in that category, so I think it’s great. Why should people call you today? To curate an exhibition?
Lisa: Thank you. I do a number of things. Obviously, first and foremost, I do represent certain artists’ careers on an ongoing basis, whether it’s curating exhibitions for their particular body of work. I can also host a show where we would sell work, because that’s the fuel that makes the engine go: selling artists’ work, curating exhibitions, connecting them to editorial, getting them placement for exposure. I would say 50 percent of what I do is a PR agency. That is the bulk of most of my day. It’s writing articles, sending out newsletters, Instagram, Facebook posts, calling institutions or perhaps sponsors who are creating an exhibition, and creating those business alignments to further these ideas. Whenever I’m on Zoom conferences, I’m taking notes. Editorial, promotional, selling—it’s like an ad agency as well.
Sharon: And when you say artists, that’s bench jewelers, retailers, makers and fine artists.
Lisa: Yes, now I have branched out with the Berman Art Agency. That umbrella encompasses the very few select sculptors and photographers I’ve worked with throughout the years. For example, Bonnie Schiffman, she’s a very well-known, iconic photographer in 16 museums worldwide. She came to me to make a commission piece in a gallery with Claudia Endler. That was an heirloom piece, and she wears it every day. Now we have this relationship where I’m working with her photographs. We’ve done shows throughout LA. I picked up the phone and created a museum exhibition for her back east. Some of these artists have had a rich career, and then they either hit a lull or they’re on hiatus. How do I resurrect this? It's looking at those types of people. Like Marc Cohen—
Sharon: We just had Marc Cohen on the podcast with his box jewelry, which is so unique.
Lisa: I’ve known Marc for almost 35 years. I’m working with him on his 40 years of archives to make sense of them and understand how to present wearable art box sculptures, which are little, unique maquettes of a stage, like a Broadway stage. He incorporates iconic photography, and each of those tells a story. I’ll be wearing one, and from across the room, someone will point at me and say, “That’s the box man.” He’s done a lot of much larger installations at the Museum of Jerusalem and some other work. So, presenting that work, how do we package that? How do we package it for a museum exhibition, for a gallery exhibition? Of course, we want to do a book.
Then I was working with Teri Brudnak. She was Karen McCreary’s partner for Star Trek. We met 35 years ago in a plastics technology class. She and Karen were making work for Star Trek: The Next Generation, the television show. We were the only three women in this class, and people were making fun of us until they would see their pieces on television within the two-week period. They stopped the teasing and said, “O.K., this is something.” For example, the Skirball Museum has a Star Trek exhibition. How do we incorporate the legacy of what Terry and Karen created with their jewelry? It’s always about peeking around the curve and finding a placement that makes sense. It is in alignment in an authentic way with their artist’s voice and what they’ve created; not necessarily a stretch, but completely in alignment with their work and their creativity.
Sharon: Lisa, thank you so much. I learned so much today about how an artist has to sell their work. I know that’s where so many get caught. Thank you so much for being here today.
Lisa: I appreciate the opportunity to tell your audience about this. It’s very important. Thank you, Sharon.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lisa M. Berman
Lisa M. Berman is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe.
Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications.
Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion.
Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Lisa M. Berman wearing Archival 18k gold plate PEBBLES Necklace by Robert Lee Morris, her own sterling silver pendant by K. Lamberti, Issey Miyake coat and holding a signed ARTWEAR Catalog (RLM). Photo by Daniel Oropeza NUE Magazine Holiday 2020 Model Neva Cole, Photo by Daniel Oropeza ICE Collar by Greg Orloff, 2018, $15,000 Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman NUE Magazine Holiday 2020 Feature article "Powerful Woman of Dissent" from the "Feel the Frill" Exhibition honoring RBG curated by L.M. Berman. Sculpture: LUX MAXIMUS, Winner of ARTPRIZE 2017 by Daniel Oropeza $350,000. Model Neva Cole wears Emancipation Collar by 2Roses, 2020, $1,500. Photo by Daniel Oropeza Creative Director / styled by: Lisa M. Berman Cover of IONA Magazine Model wears Beaded Galaxy by 3 Tribes, from our Timeless Measures Exhibition 2006, curated by Lisa M. Berman & Pamela McNeil 1 year collaboration with women from 3 tribes in Africa - elders teaching the younger generation how to bead. Cuffs (sterling Silver & Copper) by Tana Action IONA Magazine Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: “REVEALED” Collar $50,000 (worn to the EMMY Television Academy’s Governors Ball) and “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine, 2001. IONA Magazine Models wears pieces by Jan Mandel: Earrings - 18k gold & aqamarine (NFS), “TRANSITION” Collar, 18k gold, Onyx, Aquamarine $20,000 and “GOLDEN” Cuff, 18k gold, $10,000, made in 2001. Niche Magazine - TOP RETAILER SPIKED, red collar (Collection of Myra Gassman) & Cuffs on left side by Michelle Ritter “POIGNET” (French meaning Wrist) $25,000 - both with created from Stainless steel mesh, outlined with 18k gold wire, Citrine. Bouquet Ring, Stainless steel & garnet by Wendy Gwen Hacker $800 Collaboration with Sculpture To Wear Designer Gina Pankowski & MOEN Facet manufacturer. Utlilitary into Wearable Art Cover of W Magazine - January Jones wears LATTICE necklace (oxidized Sterling Silver) by Gina Pankowski, $4,000 And Bridge Bracelet sterling silver by Sergey Jivetin, SOLD in Private Collection The images below are from a PHOTO shoot based in the music video Rico Mejia Photography Fashion Beauty Celebrity Lifestyle Mobile number: 323-370-0555 https://www.behance.net/ricomejia https://twitter.com/RicoMejiaFoto https://www.instagram.com/ricomejiaphoto/ Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes bResin and Diamond Bangle by Cara Croninger from 24K Show, 1979, $4,000 Citrus Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $650, and Bracelet $300 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry Vintage Earrings- acrylic, one of a kind by Frank & Anne Vigneri, 1984, $350 Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt Resin DROP earrings by Cara Croninger $200 REGINA Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $800 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Bracelet by Genos, NFS in collection of Julie Laughton Perpetual Light in Motion - editorial photography by Rico Meija for Costumes by Swinda Reichelt BLUE DROP earrings Teri Brudnak $98 HEDGEHOG Collar of acrylic, stainless steel & magnetic closure $850 by Adriana Del Duca of Genos Jewelry for "Feel the Frill" exhibition honoring RBG, curated by L.M. Berman. Clear CUFF by Cara Croninger, NFS collection of L.M. Berman Cover of Vogue with Cherize TheronTranscript:
Lisa Berman, owner of art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear, has been a figure in the art jewelry world for over 20 years, and she has a wealth of insight to share with fellow jewelry lovers. For her second appearance on the Jewelry Journey Podcast, she talked about how she’s maintained relationships with hundreds of designers and collectors over the years, what advice she offers the designers she works with, and why art jewelry is coming into its own as a fine art collected by museums. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Berman. Although we share the same last name, I’m not related to Lisa; however, over the years she has become a friend and a trusted dealer. Lisa has been a guest on the show before. Today, we’ll have a wide-ranging discussion with less of a focus on a particular piece, more talking about her experience in the jewelry and fashion world. Per our practice, the podcast is audio only. We will be posting photos of many of the pieces Lisa mentions today on our website, which is JewelryJourney.com. This is also a two-part podcast, so please keep your eyes open for our second episode which will air later this week. Please make sure you’re a member of our jewelry community by subscribing to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. That way you can listen to both episodes hot of the presses, so to speak. With that, I’d like to welcome Lisa to the program.
Lisa: Thank you, Sharon. I’m so delighted to be back here again.
Sharon: It’s great to have you. For those who don’t know your background, can you give us a brief overview of your background?
Lisa: Of course. I grew up in the fashion industry and had a career in fashion design. I had an accessory business for many, many years, and then I acquired the name of Sculpture to Wear Gallery in 1998. Of course, that was originally launched in 1973 in New York City in the Park Plaza Hotel. I launched my first exhibition at Bergamot Station Art Center, which I’ll tell you about in a second, on January 16, 1999. I’m proud to be the second owner of Sculpture to Wear Gallery. Now, location is important. Location, location, location, you’ve heard a million times in real estate. Bergamot Station Art Center is in Santa Monica, California, Southern California, and it was formerly the home to 25 thriving contemporary galleries and the Santa Monica Museum of Art. It was, I believe, a five-acre complex. Now the Red Line runs through it.
Sharon: The Red Line being the Metro.
Lisa: Yes, the metro. Anyway, that’s where I started my journey. I actually met my former husband, Robert Berman, there as well. It was the heyday. It was like Soho. It was the happening place on the West Side; it was a lot of fun. Every Thursday, Friday and Saturday night for 10 years, there were gallery openings. There was constant influx of artists and jewelers and collectors and educators and writers, so it was definitely the place to be.
Sharon: What was groundbreaking about—first, it was groundbreaking that Sculpture to Wear was on the West Coast, but what was groundbreaking about the original Sculpture to Wear?
Lisa: The owner, Joan Sonnabend, was basically located in Boston, but she had a tiny, little, postage-stamp gallery. Robert Lee Morris told me it was only about 400 square feet. The delineation was that she only showed work by signed artists. For example, you had Alexander Calder making jewelry, and he actually made his jewelry. There were pieces by Picasso; those were in addition to the series and those were made by other craftsmen. Of course, you have people like Robert Lee Morris, whose entire career was launched at the original Sculpture to Wear. The idea was that she was selling one-of-a-kind, sculptural jewelry made by fine artists, not by jewelry artists. That was the idea.
Sharon: From what I’ve heard, nobody else was doing that then. This was unusual.
Lisa: It was extremely unusual. The only person that was doing something similar was in Philadelphia. That’s our beloved Helen Drutt, who is about to turn 91. She was also very monumental and important in bringing studio jewelry and wearable art to the United States, but she worked with jewelers and makers, mostly in Europe.
Sharon: How did you know the Sculpture to Wear license was available? How did you find out about that?
Lisa: I was introduced to the idea through Cindy Forbes, who’s now Cindy Brown. She ultimately ended up being my gallery manager. We had a conversation, one thing led to another, and that was kind of it. It was available, so I capitalized on that and the domain and the name. When I acquired the name, I felt it was very important that every decision I made was legacy-driven, because it was a very important part of history. This is not something I just launched; they had an important history and legacy on the East Coast. That’s why for my business card, I purposely selected the title of “visionary proprietor,” because it kept me on point and on target. At first, I got a little flak from it, but as I explained, that kept me on point to do my best. That was it.
Sharon: Flak because people said, “Oh my gosh—”
Lisa: A lot of gumption that I would profess to be this visionary proprietor. Now, everyone on social media is a visionary and all the museum collectors’ groups are visionaries. I don’t know; I guess I was ahead of the curve.
Sharon: You are a visionary.
Lisa: This was 23 years ago. There you go.
Sharon: So, you opened at Bergamot Station and then you moved the gallery to Montana Avenue in Santa Monica? Well, they’re both in Santa Monica.
Lisa: I was in Bergamot Station from 1999 until 2003. In Bergamot Station, I had two separate little locations. In 2003, I moved to a much larger location. That was on Montana Avenue at the cross street of 11th Street. I moved there knowing I was a destination, that I had built a brand with Sculpture to Wear and with the artists through a number of different ideologies and media and exposure. We’ll get into that in a second, but I knew I was a destination. I was not going to rely on walk-in traffic on Montana Avenue, like so many of the other stores did. That was really important, that I had built up that mailing list, the collector base. People would be traveling, or friends would be coming in from out of town and our collectors would pick them up at the airport and say, “We have to take you to Sculpture to Wear first.” It was those kinds of relationships we had built there.
Sharon: Did people stumble on your gallery in Bergamot Station? How did they find you?
Lisa: Bergamot had 25 galleries, so at any given day at any given moment, you had tons of people walking around. It’s completely different than it is today; of course during the pandemic, but completely different. There was no problem reaching collectors, and I was the complete anomaly. You have this sculptural jewelry, and it was an education to a new audience. A lot of these people weren’t necessarily open to the idea of jewelry not having diamonds or gold. People that had an educated eye in regard to design, like architects, were some of our first clients because they understood the design. It literally was a small-scale sculpture.
I think my passion for that and some of the artists were also incorporated into that conversation. I made a request of any artists that were local to the gallery that they do three things: they had to work in the gallery, they had to come and help set up an exhibition that wasn’t theirs, and they had to attend an opening that wasn’t theirs. I wanted them to understand the role of a gallery and what we did. At first it was, “Well, why I would give you 50 percent of the retail price?” This was a demonstration for them to learn why. There wasn’t any artist who partook in those three requests that came to me and said, “No, this isn’t right.” They all were shocked at what we did on a daily basis. Robert Lee Morris, I told him about that, and he was shocked. He said, “You did that?”
Sharon: You mentioned Robert Lee Morris. A lot of people will know who he is, especially New Yorkers or fashionistas, but tell us who he is and why he’s important.
Lisa: Robert Lee Morris is an icon. He’s been designing jewelry for over 50 years. He’s the only designer to earn the Coty Award for his jewelry design an unprecedented three times. He was the designer who made the big, bold, gold jewelry in conjunction with Donna Karan’s black cashmere new work uniform in the late 80s, early 90s. Digressing to understand why he’s important in my world, our world of art jewelry, is that he was one of the most important and prolific designers at the original Sculpture to Wear in New York.
He was self-taught. He was literally found at a tiny, little show in an offbeat path. He was immersed in this incredible work from Alexander Calder, Salvador Dalí, Louise Nevelson—amazing artists who already had these incredible careers, and as it turns out, people loved Robert’s work. He outsold all the other artists combined at Sculpture to Wear. Then he launched his own gallery. After Sculpture to Wear closed, he launched Artwear. That launched a number of careers from a lot of famous artists, jewelers, studio jewelers, some of whom are still with us and some are not. That’s his legacy; first at Sculpture to Wear, then Artwear. He has these amazing archives, and we’ll talk about how editorial and prior images play a role in the secondary market. That might be a good place to talk about that.
Sharon: O.K., please.
Lisa: What’s a phenomenon for me is that when I started and someone would ask if I sold jewelry, I knew the context. They would immediately think of CZ or—
Sharon: Engagement rings.
Lisa: Engagement rings. I said, “No, that’s not at all what I do,” and I would always be wearing a piece. I was always wearing largescale pieces of jewelry. At that time when I first opened my gallery, I had very short hair; I think it was two inches long. People may not have remembered my name, but they would point at me from across the room and say, “Oh, that’s the jewelry lady. That’s the Sculpture to Wear lady,” and that was just fine.
This type of work, like photography 80 or 60 years ago, was not accepted in the realm of a fine art museum. Now you see photography auctioned at over $1 million, and some of the most incredible collections in the world are simply photography. Art jewelry is now collected in some specific fine art institutions, and that is for a number of reasons. First of all, it’s because of exposure from editorial and media, and also because of the stewardship of specific collectors and designers like Helen Drutt, who bequeathed her collection to the Houston Fine Art Museum. I think it was almost a decade ago, and there’s an incredible book. It’s on my bookshelf. I can see it from here; it’s very orange and large. She wanted her collection to be viewed at a fine arts museum versus a craft museum, and that started that conversation.
Lois Boardman on the West Coast donated her collection to LACMA, LA County Museum of Art, I believe five years ago. Also, for example, the Renwick Gallery at the Smithsonian has been collecting this work for a lot longer. For example, Jen Mandel and I were there for her induction into the Smithsonian. That was incredible. We were standing right next to a piece made by Alexander Calder, and that’s where her vitrine was placed. It’s really about this conversation, and I think it’s a conversation of education.
As for the secondary market, we were just attending the Bonhams preview for the Crawford Collection. That’s an unprecedented phenomenon, to have a collection of that level, of that stature, being auctioned by Bonhams without diamonds, without gold. There are a few elements and pieces to that, but you’re looking at Art Smith pieces, modernists, studio jewelers. This is a very exciting and fertile time to be involved in studio and art jewelry. This is what I’ve been doing for the last 22, 25 years. We’re at a very exciting place and there are a number of forums, especially with Covid and Zoom, with Art Jewelry Forum having open conversations about this, introducing collectors to artists and, of course, your podcast. There are a lot of variations and factors for the secondary market.
Sharon: Lisa, because your jewelry and art jewelry in general is still avant garde—although it’s coming into its own—do you think collectors or people like you are going to say, “O.K., what’s next? What’s on the horizon now? That’s become old hat.” It hasn’t, but do you think people are going to move on?
Lisa: Sharon, I hope not. Within the genre of studio jewelry and wearable art, it has progressed and become so sophisticated. There are so many different makers out there, especially with the internet connecting us. When I first started in 1999, we didn’t really have the internet; we barely had email, and now that’s how everyone communicates. I think that people’s creativity, the way people wear pieces and where they wear them—the reality is that we’re not going anyplace right now during the pandemic, and I’m looking at different generations and how to include that next generation in collecting. For example, some of my first clients were in their 60s and 70s when they started collecting, and some are no longer with us. So, how do we engage their family members? You’re our most recent convert to art jewelry. My gallery was so close to your house, yet you would have had no interest in what we did. I think it’s a journey. Can you say someone’s going to have a different trend? No.
I also think technology has played an important role not only in studio jewelry and the exposure, but also the techniques. People are using laser cutting, 3D printing. Technology has also been accepted into fine arts institutions and it has blurred the lines of the conversation of craft and fine art. Even five years ago, there was a delineation that was very distinct. There are still institutions that are not interested in immersion, but I think technology has been a friend, not a foe, to studio jewelers and the paths they can cross.
Sharon: I do have to tell a story. Lisa and I were laughing because I lived close to where her gallery used to be. I lived not so far in the Valley, 10 miles away. I was never in your gallery, but I remember seeing an ad one day and thinking, “Who is going to wear this stuff?”
Lisa: And now the Jewelry Journey Podcast.
Sharon: It was way out. When you say that people who were older started collecting it, that’s the sort of people who don’t automatically say, “Wow, that’s so new and so cool.”
Lisa: My collectors—and I’m sure a number of the gallerists across the United States who have been around for decades would say the same—our clientele, they’re not interested in trends. If they open a Vogue, they might see a dress they like, but they’re not going to buy it because it’s on trend or in fashion. All my clientele, they’re well-traveled; they’re well-heeled; they’re generally educated. They’re willing to be avant garde. They don’t want to wear the same thing everyone else is wearing, so it’s a little bit different. The whole conversation now is that there are younger generations. I just met an incredible student at USC at the Bonhams preview. She’s running this entire magazine department in her off time while she’s full-time at USC. That’s to reach a new collector base and new makers, but that’s exciting. That’s what makes it viable.
Sharon: Yes, it keeps on going.
Lisa: Right. That was one of the things I wanted to talk about in regards to when I first started in 1999: it was not only the relationships we built with the artists and the collectors, but we also had our version of social media, which was just printed publications. We didn’t have social media, so building relationships with well-known stylists, who were either Emmy award winners or high-profile people that worked with celebrities, that was really important. We got to the point where they would literally call me up with the theme, tell me what it was, and I would already pull the pieces and have a box ready for them. We had a shorthand. That was, again, a relationship that would have to be cultivated. It was very exciting, and that’s part of building the legacy of why this work is important. For example, Robert Lee Morris is pulling out his archives. Part of the excitement of these presentations is showing some of the editorial, these great magazine covers and shows that these pieces were included in. I have two decades of binders of images. So, that’s very exciting, to show the relevance 20 years ago to now.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Adriane Dalton
Adriane Dalton is an artist, writer, and educator based in Philadelphia, PA. She is the editor of Metalsmith, the magazine published by the Society of North American Goldsmiths (SNAG). She was formerly the Assistant Curator and Exhibitions Manager at the Nora Eccles Harrison Museum of Art (NEHMA) in Logan, Utah, where she co-curated “ARTsySTEM: The Changing Climate of the Arts and Sciences” and taught History of American Studio Craft, among many other curatorial and educational projects.
She holds an MA in the history of decorative arts and design from Parsons The New School for Design (2014), and a BFA in craft and material studies from the University of the Arts (2004). Her work has been exhibited nationally and internationally at Contemporary Craft (Pittsburgh, PA), The Wayne Art Center (Wayne, PA), Snyderman-Works Gallery (Philadelphia, PA), A CASA Museu de Object Brasileiro (Sao Paulo, Brazil), the Metal Museum (Memphis, TN), and Space 1026 (Philadelphia, PA).
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Recent Metal Smith Covers
Transcript:
Adriane Dalton took a meandering path to become editor of Metalsmith, the Society of North American Goldsmith’s (SNAG) quarterly magazine, but her background as a maker, her work as a curator, and her education in the history of craft has only helped her hone her editorial skills. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the overlaps between making, curating and editing; what she looks for when selecting work for the magazine; and why it’s important we not just talk about objects and the people who make them, but the conditions in which people make them. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: What kinds of changes do you think? I don’t know, galleries representing more Black jewelers and jewelers of color? What kinds of changes do you mean? Talking about them in classes?
Adriane: For that particular issue, that essay by Valena Robinson Glass and the essay by Leslie Boyd touch on some of the possibilities for how to address those things. I would encourage anyone who’s listening who hasn’t read that issue or isn’t familiar with it to go pick it up off your bookshelf or go purchase it from SNAG. There are a lot of ways you can be reflective. Some of it is as simple as trying to understand if you have a space where there are no Black, indigenous, or people of color in that space, whether you’re a galleries or an educator, what are the barriers to access for people, whether they’re economic or graphic? There are a lot of different things. I don’t know that I can say there are one-size-fits all solutions to these things, but I think it’s a matter of being reflective.
Sharon: I know you’re the editor of the publication; you’re not speaking for SNAG itself, but what do you see SNAG doing to lower barriers?
Adriane: I think some of the things SNAG has done have been done to create, for example—for our virtual conference, there were needs-based scholarships for folks to attend the conference if they had an economic barrier, which is one way SNAG has dealt with that. Because of us having canceled our conference last year, there’s been a lot of upheaval. We’re trying to get through and recover from the financial burden of having to cancel an annual conference, as many organizations have this past year.
One of the other things that has been done—and this started pre-pandemic—is changing how we define what it means to be a student. In the past, that was implied to mean a student of a four-year jewelry program. As most folks have probably noticed, there are fewer and fewer jewelry and metals programs in higher education in the U.S. than ever. So many programs have closed, and there have been a lot of community programs which have popped up, such as the Baltimore Jewelry Center, Smith Shop in Detroit, Brooks Metalworks, plus others. Then, of course, there are places like We Wield the Hammer and the Crucible in San Francisco. We’re trying to include anyone who’s taking classes in a community setting in this definition of student, offering lower rates for registrations for students, lower rates for student memberships and things like that. SNAG’s membership cost at this point is $99 annually, which I believe is less than it used to be. I feel like it used to be higher than that.
Sharon: I don’t remember. I get my renewal notice and I know I want to remain a member. Will there be a regular conference this year or next spring, do you think? Although who knows with the Delta variant.
Adriane: Right. There are plans for an in-person conference to happen in the spring of 2022 as it would normally, around Labor Day. I’m not involved in the conference planning, so I don’t know exactly what the plan is at this point, but I think there are some other things that SNAG has planned in the meantime. We have other virtual programming.
We’re going to be having a symposium in the fall in October. I believe it’s October 22-23. This is part of what will be an annual program that happens every fall in addition to the conference, and it will be virtual. I believe the title of that symposium program is “Tides and Waves.” Each year, we’ll have a different geographical focus throughout the world. I believe that is the focus for this coming symposium, which is happening this fall. I think it will have been announced by the time this comes up.
Sharon: This fall being 2021?
Adriane: Yeah, this fall being 2021. I think the geographical focus for this symposium is Eastern Asia.
Sharon: Oh, wow, that will be interesting. I’m not a maker, and when I go to the conferences, I’m more focused on what people are showing, what’s different. I’m trying to remember the issues you’re talking about. It doesn’t seem like there have been many—maybe they haven’t been of much interest to me, but I haven’t heard these issues being discussed at the conferences as much as how you form a gold something, or whatever. I don’t know.
Adriane: You mean as far as conference sessions?
Sharon: Sessions, yeah.
Adriane: The last conference I attended was in Chicago. No, that’s not true; I attended our virtual conference, but when you’re working and the conference is happening and you’re trying to zip in and out of things and pay attention to everything, it’s all kind of a blur for me at this point, honestly. I think the most recent virtual conference dealt a little bit more with some of the things I was mentioning. For example, there was a panel that dealt with people who were makers or involved in the field in some way, but who also have a caretaking role, whether that’s mothering or something that. That also speaks to what I was mentioning before, thinking about not just what we make, but the conditions in which we make. That is a huge topic that hasn’t fully been addressed. How can you go to a residency and take a month or longer to do that when you have a small child—or not even a small child, a teenager—and do all of these things when you have some other person you have to care for? And of course, that disproportionately affects women in the field.
I think one of the things that is great about an in-person conference but is much more difficult to have happen organically in a virtual setting, even now when we are accustomed to attending events virtually—and I love it; it’s great because I can be in San Francisco; I can be in New York; I can be in London, but I don’t have to leave my house. I just have to be awake at whatever time zone the event is happening in. But something that doesn’t happen at these things is the organic conversations you have in small groups at dinner or over drinks. For me as the editor, those are the conversations I’m really looking for. What are people talking about that we aren’t talking about more broadly, and how can we make space for that and bring that in?
Sharon: That’s an interesting question. Yes, you do hear that as you’re having coffee with somebody or with a group. What’s on your plate that you’ve heard? Maybe it’s harder to hear that virtually, but something that you thought, “Oh, I want to investigate that more,” or “We need to do something about that, an article.”
Adriane: Yeah, one very straightforward example is that during last year’s virtual New York City Jewelry Week, I spent the entire week, morning to night for seven days straight, glued to my computer. I was picking my laptop up and taking it into my kitchen when I made dinner. By the end of the week, I didn’t want to look at a screen again, but of course I had to. One of the presentations during New York City Jewelry Week last year was by Sebastian Grant—
Sharon: He is?
Adriane: Sebastian is a jewelry historian and teaches at Parsons - Cooper Hewitt. His presentation, which I believe was in concert with The Jewelry Library, was on looking at the history of Black jewelry artists from mid-century forward and trying to identify these makers and talk about their work and their stories that hadn’t been shared or acknowledged. In a lot of publications, there hasn’t been comprehensive publishing around some of these artists. After seeing his presentation, I reached out to him and asked if he would be interested in taking some of that research and sharing it in Metalsmith in a series of articles. So far, we’ve published two articles by Sebastian. That’s a very direct example of being engaged in the field in a virtual setting, hearing conversations that are going on—it was a presentation, but there was also a Q&A afterwards—and knowing this is something that needs to be given more space.
Sharon: It must be great to be in a position where you can say, “This needs to be addressed further” and do something about it, to literally create. I know you have people you consult with on that, but still, that’s very interesting. What other areas do you have in mind that are churning right now?
Adriane: It’s hard to say. I can talk a little bit about the examples of things that have happened over the recent volume that fit these criteria. Looking forward, it’s a little harder because I’m just finishing up Volume 41—or getting ready to finish it up—and then Volume 42 will be starting. There’s a lot of planning, a lot of question marks and things that are penciled in that I’m hoping will be written in in pen shortly.
One of the examples that directly came out of attending the conference in Chicago, aside from that conversation I mentioned with Lauren Eckert which led to the New Voices Competition, was at—I forget what it was called—but basically, it was the exhibition room where everyone has their small pop-up exhibitions. There was an exhibition that was curated by Mary Raivel and Mary Fissell, who are both based in Baltimore and involved with the Baltimore Center. Their exhibition was called “Coming of Age,” and they were specifically interested in artists who had come to jewelry making or metalsmithing as a second career after having some other career first. I was really interested in that, because there’s the idea of the emerging artist as being someone who’s young and just out of school, just out of undergrad or just out of grad school. I think it’s a limiting way to think about where people are at in their creative process. I invited them to write about that exhibition, turn it into an article and talk about the interviews they did with the artists who applied to the show. We ran that in Volume 40, so it was the second issue of Volume 40 of Metalsmith.
Sharon: That’s a really interesting subject. It’s so true; there are so many people who have come to jewelry making, whether it’s in metal or in plastic or whatever, after a career doing something else, when they said, “Hey, I’m done with this and I really want to do what I want do.” I know Art Jewelry Forum, when they started—I don’t know exactly where it ended up, but I know there was discussion in terms of age. Originally some of the grants being submitted had to do with age, and that really doesn’t tell you anything.
Adriane: Right. That actually came up in that article. It’s been a while since I read it, so it’s not fresh in my mind, but I believe they interviewed someone from Art Jewelry Forum—maybe it was Yvonne—and they brought this up and talk about that. In the article, they talk about how people fall into this gap where they’re an age on paper where it seems like they should be mid-career artists, but they truly are emerging artists; it just may not seem that way if you know their age. I think it’s interesting, and the more we try to put—and this is true of all sorts of things—rigid parameters on something, I think we limit ourselves in whom we invite to participate in the field or be in these spaces with us. It leaves people out. Not everyone can graduate from high school and go straight into college and start a career as a bench jeweler or a production jeweler or conceptual artist. There are a lot of different factors that contribute to where a person is in their career and the work they’re making.
Sharon: Yeah, that as well. What’s a student today? It’s an avocation. It may become their vocation eventually, but if they take a class at a community—I took a class at a jewelry school, and that’s all the metalsmithing I’ve done. I was thinking about how you, being a maker, how does that affect—do you think you could do your job as well if you weren’t a maker?
Adriane: I don’t think I could do my job as well if I were not a maker who had a grounding in the processes and traditions of metalsmithing. As I was saying earlier, the field and the materiality of the field has shifted a lot. My undergraduate study in learning the basics of jewelry and metalsmithing is helpful for me as I’m looking at the way authors are writing about artists’ work. Not everyone who writes for the magazine is a maker or a jeweler, so there are some times when a term might come up, or someone might interpret a component of an object in a certain way. I, as someone who is a maker, and our readers often could look at that and say, “Well, I don’t think that’s quite right.” I then have the knowledge to write a note or an edit and say, “Hey, I think you might have this wrong. I think it’s vermeil and not actually gold.” I don’t think I would have that ability if I didn’t have a background as a maker.
Sharon: That’s interesting. How do you find the journalism aspect? To me, what you’re doing—it’s both the combination of being a maker or jeweler and having the crafts background, but the journalism, not everybody could do that.
Adriane: I don’t think about it in that way necessarily. Having a curatorial background, I think about the magazine more curatorially, I would say. Maybe there’s some overlap with the way someone with a journalism background would think about it, but because that is not my background and not my training, I don’t know. I think about what I’m doing as the editor as interpretative, in the way that if you are a curator and you’ve done research and you’re presenting a selection of artworks to the public, you have to contextualize them in some way. You have to make sure that the way that you’ve put things together, people can come into that space, whether it’s in a print publication or in a gallery space, and hopefully they can come away with the things that are apparent and the subtleties at the same time. That’s what I try to capture when I write my letter from the editor for every issue, which, as you alluded to earlier, sounds like a difficult task and it certainly is. Even though I have done a lot of writing, I’m always fussing with it and fussing with it and fussing with it up to the last minute. I want to make sure that when people read it, they get something out of it that isn’t just, “Here’s what’s in this issue.”
Sharon: That’s interesting. Being an editor has so many similarities with being a curator. You’re culling through things and what goes with what and setting the context, which is what you definitely do in the note from the editor, and I’ll be thinking about them a little differently as I read more. I already look at them and think, “Oh, it’s so hard to express yourself.” You do a very good job, but they’re very weighty things you’re talking about. It’s not just, “Oh, we have pretty pieces of jewelry in this issue.”
Adriane: Right. If that were the case, that would probably be all I had to say about it.
Sharon: That’s true; moving from here on to Vogue.
Adriane: I don’t know about that.
Sharon: Adriane, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. You’ve given us a lot to think about. I didn’t enter this conversation realizing it would be so thought-provoking. Thank you. It’s greatly, greatly appreciated.
Adriane: That’s wonderful; thank you, and thank you for having me. This has been a fantastic conversation.
Sharon: So glad to have you.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Adriane Dalton
Adriane Dalton is an artist, writer, and educator based in Philadelphia, PA. She is the editor of Metalsmith, the magazine published by the Society of North American Goldsmiths (SNAG). She was formerly the Assistant Curator and Exhibitions Manager at the Nora Eccles Harrison Museum of Art (NEHMA) in Logan, Utah, where she co-curated “ARTsySTEM: The Changing Climate of the Arts and Sciences” and taught History of American Studio Craft, among many other curatorial and educational projects.
She holds an MA in the history of decorative arts and design from Parsons The New School for Design (2014), and a BFA in craft and material studies from the University of the Arts (2004). Her work has been exhibited nationally and internationally at Contemporary Craft (Pittsburgh, PA), The Wayne Art Center (Wayne, PA), Snyderman-Works Gallery (Philadelphia, PA), A CASA Museu de Object Brasileiro (Sao Paulo, Brazil), the Metal Museum (Memphis, TN), and Space 1026 (Philadelphia, PA).
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Recent Metal Smith Covers
Transcript:
Adriane Dalton took a meandering path to become editor of Metalsmith, the Society of North American Goldsmith’s (SNAG) quarterly magazine, but her background as a maker, her work as a curator, and her education in the history of craft has only helped her hone her editorial skills. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the overlaps between making, curating and editing; what she looks for when selecting work for the magazine; and why it’s important we not just talk about objects and the people who make them, but the conditions in which people make them. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Adriane Dalton, editor of Metalsmith Magazine published by SNAG, the Society of North American Goldsmiths. The publication is designed to keep makers, jewelers and other artists in the field informed about important issues and people in their creative field. Adriane, welcome to the program.
Adriane: Hi, it’s wonderful to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. I’m really looking forward to hearing all about this. I’ve been reading the magazine for so long. Tell us about your own jewelry journey. Were you a maker? How did you get into this? Did you come to it through journalism or the arts?
Adriane: I came to it through the arts. I do not have a journalism background. I actually have a BFA in craft and material studies from the University of the Arts in Philadelphia, which is where I now live again after being in a lot of other places over the years. That craft and material studies program was my first introduction to jewelry making and to the contemporary jewelry field as we know it and as represented by SNAG and Metalsmith. Prior to that, I think my conception of jewelry was limited to the standard things you would see in the mall. That program was my gateway to the field.
Sharon: Is that what you wanted to do when you came to study crafts and material arts? Did you think you’d be doing jewelry? Were you going to do fine art?
Adriane: When I started undergrad, I had intended to be a photography major or potentially a glassblower. You have this first, foundational year of art school where you get to try different things out, and then you have to decide what your major is. I decided that in order to try to blow glass and work with my hands, I would need to be in the glass department. You couldn’t major in glass at the time, so you had to pick a different focus area and then you could take classes in the glass department. So, I became a jewelry major sort of incidentally. I’ve always enjoyed working with my hands and making physical objects, so it ended up being a good fit for me. While I was there, I studied with Sharon Church, Rod McCormick and Lola Brooks, who were all teaching in the program at the time. That was my introduction to jewelry as an art form, not just as a piece of adornment.
Sharon: So, you weren’t third grade thinking, “I want to make jewelry.”
Adriane: No.
Sharon: When you graduated, were you making? How did it come about that you’re now editing a publication?
Adriane: It’s been a meandering path, honestly. I graduated with my BFA with a focus in jewelry and metals. I was interested in enameling, and I did a lot of enamel work. When I finished undergrad, I had a studio and I worked on some small production lines. I worked on one-of-a-kind work, but I also needed to have a job to support myself beyond that, and I found out very quickly that I didn’t like making production work. It wasn’t what I wanted to do to support myself or express myself creatively. For about eight years, I worked in an office job and had a studio space. I was involved in some community arts organizations here in Philadelphia and maintained my own creative practice during that time.
It was almost 10 years after I had graduated from undergrad that I decided to go to grad school. I was interested in studying the field of craft more broadly, not just jewelry itself, so I enrolled in the joint program between Cooper Hewitt Museum in New York and Parsons. At the time, it was called History of Decorative Arts and Design. I believe the program is now History of Design and Curatorial Studies. I went into the program hoping to have a more formalized and research-based approach to thinking about craft.
Sharon: Wow! That must have been exciting to be in New York and studying at such premier schools. Were you going to do research? Did you want to go into museums? What did you think you might want to do?
Adriane: I was 30 at the time when I started grad school, and I had enough time after undergrad to figure out some of the things I didn’t want to do. I considered going and receiving an MFA. I toyed with that idea a bit, and I decided I wanted to try to have a career that would allow me to use my creative mind in the work, but that would hopefully feed into my creative practice in some way while also supporting me. I had a curatorial focus when I was in grad school, and I had some fellowships in the Cooper Hewitt Product Design and Decorative Arts Department under Sarah Coffin when she was still curator there; I think she’s since retired. I also was the jewelry intern under Alice Newman at the Museum of Arts and Design while I was in grad school. Those two experiences opened up possibilities for me to engage with the field in a way I hadn’t prior to grad school.
Sharon: Wow! Some really important people that were mentors or teachers. How did it come about that you’re now at Metalsmith Magazine?
Adriane: After grad school, I actually moved to Utah from New York, to a small town in northern Utah where I was the assistant curator of an art museum there, the Nora Eccles Harrison Museum of Art, which at the time had some exhibitions that were craft-centric. I came on to help with some of that. They have a fantastic ceramics collection. Ceramics is not my focus area, but having a broad generalization in craft, I can sort of move between materials. So, I was in Utah for a few years working as a curator. Then I moved back to the East Coast, to Richmond. I was working at the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts in their education department doing programming.
The way I came to be the editor of Metalsmith was a fluke in a lot of ways. I had applied for a different position at SNAG at the time that was educationally focused. I had a couple of interviews, got along really well with the executive director at the time, Gwynne Rukenbrod Smith. A few months later, she reached out to me and said, “Hey, our editor, Emily Zilber, is leaving, and I need someone to come in on an interim basis and keep things going until we figure out what we are going to do with the position and the magazine. Is this something you’d be interested in and capable of?” I said, “Yes, sure.” I came on thinking it would be potentially a six-month arrangement and then I would go on doing museum education, which is what I was doing. It ended up working out and I was invited to stay on, and so here I am.
Sharon: Wow! Tell us about Metalsmith and what you want to do with it, what its purpose is, that sort of thing.
Adriane: Sure. Metalsmith is one program area of SNAG. For folks who are listening who may not be familiar with SNAG, SNAG is the Society of North American Goldsmiths. It’s a 50-year-old—well, I think it’s 51 years old now—organization that’s an international member-based organization. We are a 501(c)(3) nonprofit. Our member base is predominantly a variety of metalsmiths, jewelers, other folks who maybe don’t consider themselves jewelers but use the body as a flight for expression, production studio jewelry artists, teachers, historians, curators, collectors, gallerists and writers. Our member focus is North America, but we do have members and subscribers all over the world.
Metalsmith fits into SNAG in the sense that as a program area, it helps SNAG fulfill part of its mission statement, which is to advance the field of jewelry and metalsmithing and to inspire creativity, encourage education and foster community. Before it was Metalsmith, SNAG had three other publications. It started as a newsletter in the early days, and then it became Gold Dust. Then it was, I think, Goldsmith’s Journal. Metalsmith was established in 1980. So, we are now in our 41st year of publication.
Sharon: Did it become Metalsmith because—I’m a member of SNAG and I really like it, but I’ve only met maybe one goldsmith. Is that what happened there, going from Gold Dust to Metalsmith?
Adriane: I think so. I’m not privy to all the early decisions of how the magazine was established and run, but I think choosing Metalsmith was to be more inclusive of the field at that time. Now, of course, one of the critiques I hear sometimes from members and other folks in the field is that Metalsmith doesn’t always have that much metal in it.
Sharon: That’s true, yes.
Adriane: That is true. That is, I think, indicative of the shifts in interdisciplinarity and shifts in thinking about materials that are appropriate for these forms that have happened over the past 20 or 30 years in the field. There have been times when people have said, “Well, they should change the name to something else,” but it still fits in a lot of ways. The word “smith” in and of itself points to the action that is involved. For me and how I think about the magazine and the work that’s in the magazine, it doesn’t necessarily matter what the material is; it’s more about the approach and the context in which the maker is putting it out into the world.
Sharon: How are you choosing the subjects? There are so many different areas now. I think of plastics; I think of wood; I think about all different kinds of crafts and jewelry. How do you choose the issues and writers you put in the publication?
Adriane: I take pictures and proposals. Anyone listening to this podcast, anyone out there can send me an email or get in touch with me to propose any idea they have for an article or an artist they want to cover, things like that. It’s a combination of taking proposals from people who reach out to me and me seeking people out who I’m interested in their work or interested in their writing, or me finding someone who I think would be good to write about a particular artist’s work. It depends, and it’s a mishmash of those things. A misconception I try to dispel any chance I get, and will do so now, is that I have a glut of proposals coming in. Really, a lot of the time I don’t, particularly in the past 18 months. During the pandemic, people’s focus has been in other directions, as it should be, but it’s hard to keep things going if I have to do all the outreach and it’s not going in both directions like it should.
Sharon: I’m surprised; with everybody at home during lockdown, it seems like it would have been the perfect time for people to be writing or pitching or proposing or thinking about it at least.
Adriane: Yeah, it is a combination of things. I do have people who reach out to me who I may or may not be familiar with. I’m really interested in having voices in the magazine that are new to the field or are in the process of establishing themselves as a thinker in the field. One of the ways we have done that in the past two years was through a writing competition that we hosted during our 40th volume, which was the previous volume to the one that’s being published now. That was proposed to me by an artist and author, Lauren Eckert, who approached me at SNAG’s conference in Chicago, the last in-person conference we held. She said, “What do you think about having a writing contest to get new voices into the magazine?” and I said, “Oh, I think that that’s a great idea. Would you want to help me get that together?” She volunteered, and I invited Lauren to join the publication’s advisory committee, which is a sounding board and feedback board for the magazine.
We ran the competition and had two awardees, and we published their writing in this most recent volume. In issue 41, we had Jessica Todd’s article “Restrung: Contemporary North American Beadsmiths.” In issue 42, we had “Difficult Adornments: Recontextualizing Creative Adornment Through Display” which was by Rebecca Schena. Jessica was the New Voices award winner and Rebecca was the runner up, but we couldn’t narrow it down to just one because there were so many great submissions. It was very hard to pick them.
Sharon: In terms of issues, what issues are really close to you, important to you? What issues do you see in the field? It’s a few months old now, but I was looking at one of the publications about Black jewelers and inequality in the field, and I thought, “Well, that’s not a namby-pamby issue; it’s right out there and you’re not afraid to discuss those kinds of things.”
Adriane: Yeah, something that is important to me and has become extremely necessary as the world has shifted so much in the past 18 months is to not just create content in a vacuum, but to have the work and the voices in the magazine truly be representative of what is going on in the field. Some of that includes acknowledging ways the field of jewelry and metalsmithing replicates other systemic racist structures that exist in American society. To speak to the bigger picture for how I think about the content of the magazine—and this also predates the pandemic, but the pandemic has made me more firm in this—is that it’s important to not just talk about objects and the people who make them, but to talk about the conditions in which people make them. That is especially relevant now that the world has been the way it has been for the past 18 months and we are all more acutely aware of a lot of things than perhaps previously.
Sharon: That’s a good point, in terms of picking up a publication or going online and saying, “What are the pretty pictures?” or “What are the creative objects?” You also mentioned in one of your notes from the editor—it must be a challenge to come with that every month, in terms of pithy subjects—you wrote that for some, the process of growth is discomfort. How does that manifest itself? Do you see it manifesting in SNAG’s members, for example?
Adriane: I don’t know if I can speak to how it manifests for our members. I will say SNAG has a diverse membership. When I’m making the magazine, I’m making it not only for SNAG’s membership, but we also have some people who subscribe but aren’t SNAG members, and the magazine is on newsstands. So, I’m trying to think broadly whenever possible. As far as that particular letter from the editor, some of the content in that issue—which includes that essay by Rebecca Schena that I mentioned before—but it also includes the piece you alluded to, which is by Valena Robinson Grass, “Moving Beyond Acknowledgment: Systemic Barriers for Black American Metalsmiths.” There’s another article in there by Leslie Boyd about how white educators can be more attentive to the ways their students are showing up in the structure of academia. As I’m talking, I’m getting further and further away from answering your question, but—
Sharon: No, I don’t get that impression.
Adriane: I think that, much like a lot of other things that have happened in the past 18 months, there needs to be some amount of reflection and reckoning in parts of the jewelry field that have been predominantly white spaces and reflecting upon why that is, and thinking about how you can claim to value diversity and inclusivity and equity. You can say those things and you can mean them, but unless you’re willing to do the reflection and make some changes, then it’s meaningless; it’s empty.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Blue Sky Chalcedony
Byzantium Earrings
Byzantium Necklace
Circes Circle Necklace
Illusion Necklace
Ionian Necklace
Its A Wrap Necklace
Naiad Necklace
About Tess Sholom
Warm and malleable but also strong and enduring, gold shines with the spirit of life itself. For designer and jeweler Tess Sholom, gold is both medium and muse. Tess Sholom began her jewelry career in fashion jewelry in 1976, designing pieces that appeared on the runways of Karl Lagerfeld, Oscar de la Renta and James Galanos, and the pages of Vogue and Harper’s Bazaar.
Her fashion work is included in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Smithsonian Institution, Museum of the City of New York, the Racine Museum of Art, the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, the Fashion Institute of Technology, and other museums.
After two successful decades in fashion jewelry, she trained as a goldsmith and fell under the spell of high-karat gold. She decided to stop designing high-volume fashion jewelry and begin again as a hands-on studio artist, creating one-of-a-kind 22k gold jewelry in the workshop.
Tess Sholom always had an eye for accessorizing, but she didn’t realize it would lead her to a long and fruitful career as a jewelry designer. While working as a cancer researcher, a long-shot pitch to Vogue opened the door to a 30-year career as a jewelry designer for fashion runways. Her latest career move was opening Tess Sholom Designs, where she creates one-of-a-kind, high-karat gold pieces. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she designed jewelry for Oscar de la Renta, Bill Blass and Karl Lagerfeld; why problem solving is the thread that runs through all her careers; and how she plays on gold’s timeless, mystical quality in her work. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Yes, when I see kids on their phones, I’m like, “Oh my god!” When you see kids who speak a language you’re trying to learn, it’s amazing. Do you find that you get a response from Instagram and other social media?
Tess: I do, yeah. It’s amazing. Especially the past year, when everyone was pretty much isolated, it made a big difference. People are now getting accustomed to Amazon; everybody buys things through Amazon. When you want to find something, people say, “Oh, why don’t you look on Amazon?” We have become this very immediate culture. We want things immediately so you don’t have to go out of your house. You just click the computer and get what you want.
Sharon: Very true. The Metropolitan Museum has what looks like a large collection of your designs for the runway and fashion jewelry. How did that come about?
Tess: I’m trying to remember. It was after the curator had taken my work for the Museum of the City of New York. I don’t remember, but I do remember spending an entire summer with my assistant giving everything a provenance. It took a long time to document everything because it had to be very specific. I think part of the reason why they have such a large collection is when the Brooklyn Museum of Art was renovating, they transferred some of their collection to the Met, I believe, and they just kept it in their archives.
Sharon: If you’re researching online, there’s a lot there. It’s interesting to see the designers that the pieces were done for. As I was surfing and trying to get some background, how do you feel when you come across a piece of yours on eBay that you made in the 80s? How do you feel about that?
Tess: I love the fact that it still there. It’s wonderful. I’m very pleased, and of course I’m amazed to see how much it’s increased in value. On eBay, it goes for a lot more than I sold it 30 years ago. To go back and see that something that I made 30, 40 years ago is still relevant means so much. One of the worries of becoming an older person is if I am going to stay relevant, and it’s very gratifying to see people are still purchasing something I made many years ago. It’s interesting because it makes it timeless, even though it was made for a particular season; it was made either for a fall collection or a spring collection. 40 years later, somebody still wants it and it’s still relevant. It’s in a way timeless, and that’s very gratifying to me.
Sharon: I can see how that would be validating.
Tess: It’s excellent.
Sharon: Is that something you think about when you’re making your current pieces, about whether somebody’s going to be looking?
Tess: That’s interesting. No, it never occurred to me because jewelry is problem solving. It’s like a meditation because you must think about what you’re doing, especially if you’re using an acetylene torch. One second of inattention and it’s gone. You have a lump of gold, which is very beautiful in itself, but not quite what you wanted. I’m thinking about what problems are presenting themselves while I’m making the piece, and they do. It’s your vision coming to light. That’s one thing, but it’s a lot of overcoming obstacles. I’m working with a metal; I’m working with a flame, and they each have their own characteristics and their own minds, and I have to cooperate with all that. So, that’s very interesting. I don’t think about that. I just think about the piece I’m making and how I’m going to do the best I can. I have a lot of reverence for the material I’m using and I want to do it justice, so my focus is on trying to do the best I can while I’m working. I never thought about that before.
Sharon: Do you design your pieces? I think of a pencil and paper. Do you sketch out a design before you start?
Tess: Often I do that, but sometimes if I’m sculpting with gold, I have an idea of what I want and I just try to coax the metal to melt in the way I want it to. That’s a lot of fun because you never know what’s going to happen. Sometimes it’s just that lucky accident that happens.
My inspirations have come from everywhere. I remember once Bill Blass called me into his office and said, “I’m going to do roses for my spring collection and I’d like you to do something to go along with that.” I thought, “Roses, oh my, I don’t want to do anything representational.” I was leaving for a ski trip with husband. While I was skiing and I was on the slopes, this Greek song came to mind about roses. The word in Greek for rose is “30 petals” and I thought, “Oh, that’s what I’ll do. I’ll do a distillation of the rose. I’ll do three petals,” and I did. I did a bracelet that had three petals that were fanned out but connected at the base, and a necklace and earrings that way. I showed it to Bill who said, “Well, it doesn’t look a rose, but I love it,” and he ordered 60 pieces of it in brass, nickel, copper and also in Lucite.
Often my inspiration is from nature. I never walk through the park—I walk through the park a lot—without seeing something that I want to translate into gold. The idea is flowers and leaves are ephemeral. That’s it. They give us lots of joy when they’re here, but then to capture them in gold is wonderful because that makes them last longer. So, my inspiration comes from nature as well, but it can be a thought; it can be a song; it can be the way a banister curves. I don’t know.
Sharon: As you’re working, is the vision in your head? Are you saying, “That’s not the way I drew it out or did it on the computer”?
Tess: Yes, that happens a lot. It happens a lot that it doesn’t translate. Paper and pencil are very different from three-dimensional things. So, it happens a lot, and if I don’t like it then I start again. But often I do like it.
Sharon: Are people ordering commissions from you, or are they ordering straight from your website or Instagram? How is that working?
Tess: They do both. They either buy what they see or—and this is very gratifying—people will bring me their old pieces that have sentimental value. They don’t want to get rid of them, but they are not their style; they’re not attractive. I usually remake them. I redesign them. I like that because there’s something about the energy of someone else having worn this. It becomes a legacy, but it’s still my expression.
Sharon: That must be a lot of fun.
Tess: It is. I had an aunt when I was a young child who would send me jewelry from Greece. She would say to me, “I wore it before giving it to you because I want my energy to go with it,” and I’ve never forgotten that.
Sharon: There is that energy. It’s also a testament to you because you walk down the street and so many jewelry stores say, “Bring us your old pieces and remake them.” They’re looking for something they know only you can deliver on that remake.
Tess: Yes, they want me to do it in my expression. The jewelry stores do very beautiful work, obviously, but they’re not always very customized or individual or taking you into consideration.
Sharon: And that was exactly the question I was going to ask. Are you working side-by-side in a sense with the person who asks you for something?
Tess: Absolutely. Of course it’s my expression because that’s why they came to me, but I never impose something. It has to be something we mutually agree on and is going to work.
Sharon: Have you ever made something that somebody said, “Oh, that’s not what I had in mind at all”?
Tess: No.
Sharon: Well, that’s a pretty good track record. When you were working on the runway, like you were talking about the rose theme, did each model on the runway have a Lucite rose and one had a silver rose?
Tess: Yeah, it was like that. The trick also was that I was working with a number of designers for the same season. I had to be very careful not to have one look like the other, which wasn’t difficult because they were all different looks. When I was doing Galanos and Bill Blass and Oscar de la Renta and Giorgio di Sant'Angelo all in the same season, that all had to look different, and it did because they had different personalities and their clothes were different.
Sharon: Did you ever have anybody say—no names, but “If you’re doing work for John Smith, then I really—"
Tess: No, no one ever said that to me.
Sharon: Are you selling now to stores? Tell us about your business today, Tess Sholom Designs.
Tess: I have been approached by a former buyer at Bergdorf’s who would like to introduce me to the buyer now. So, we’ll see. I haven’t tried to do retail yet because it’s different, but they’re willing to do one-of-a-kind. As long as someone is willing to do one-of-a-kind, it’s different. In the past, retail wanted the whole story; they wanted multiples, but retail has changed. That’s one thing, but the other thing is I mostly do private sales like events.
Sharon: Is it mostly word of mouth? Besides social media, let’s say if you’re doing a private event in New York, how are they hearing about you?
Tess: Right. I have a salesperson and a media person who scouts out these things for me.
Sharon: Wow! That’s great. That must be very gratifying to meet people and talk to them about your pieces, give them your take on them.
Tess: That’s one of the best parts of this, aside from the joy of making the jewelry: dealing with a customer who loves the jewelry and who loves how it makes them feel. Jewelry can really be transformative. It enhances your essence. It’s beautiful so it reflects your beauty. People respond to that, and that’s extremely gratifying. I had a customer once who said to me that normally when she goes to a restaurant, she gets up to go the powder room and she walks through the space with her head down. One night she was wearing my necklace, and she said she put her head up and walked to the bathroom, the walkway she had to go through, and she felt wonderful. That made me feel good because it did something for her. It’s not superficial. Jewelry is not superficial. As I said before, it can be transformative. It can be commemorative. It can make you happy; it can enhance you, make you feel good about yourself.
Sharon: Yes, it can definitely make you happy.
Tess: I remember once I was selling to a banker and his wife in Luxembourg. He’s looking at me and he’s looking at his wife wearing her earrings, looking back and forth, and I said to him, “I understand your dilemma. You know a lot about finance. You don’t know anything about pearls. What you need to know at this point is does your wife feel beautiful wearing the pearls?”
Sharon: And that was a sale.
Tess: That was a sale because that was all it needed to be. He wasn’t buying an estate, and he wasn’t putting down his mortgage for the earrings. Obviously, they were good quality; that’s not the issue, but I gave him permission to look at what the reality is. The reality is does jewelry make you feel good? It did, and it was reasonable. His wife liked it, and he was happy that he could make his wife happy.
Sharon: That’s a great way to look at it. Does your wife feel beautiful or does the person feel good in it?
Tess: Right.
Sharon: At one of these trunk shows, did you ever have a prospect or somebody looking at your jewelry and as they put it on, you just said, “No, that doesn’t work”?
Tess: Yes, because part of my job is to pair the right piece of jewelry with the customer. That’s more important. Even if they walk away with nothing, it’s more important to get something that’s right for them than not. I do remember an instance when I was at a trunk show years ago in Texas. A woman walked in with her daughter, a long, beautiful, slim girl, and her mother said, “Do you have anything for this strange, long body?” And I said, “Half of the world wants to look like this. Yes.” I saw the girl looking at these thin belts, and I said, “Why don’t you try this on?” It was a big, bold brass belt. I watched her as she put it on and looked at herself in the mirror, and you could see the changeover. She was so surprised. She was amazed, but it was the right thing for her. It was totally different from anything she had worn or chosen before. It was right for her and it made me feel good.
Sharon: It sounds like you have a natural eye for that. I have interior designer friends who can walk into a room and say, “If you remove that table over there,” whereas I would never think about it.
Tess: Right, I guess it helps to have that eye. I love what I do, so I want it to be shown off to its best. The person and the jewelry enhance each other. It’s the right thing.
Sharon: Well, it sounds like the buyer has the right person, the right advice, the right eye with you looking at them.
Tess: We share an interest. Obviously, we both love jewelry. The customer comes in because she loves jewelry and I love it, so we’ve already got a good meeting ground.
Sharon: I’m curious; this is an off-the-wall question perhaps, but do you see any similarities between what you were doing with cancer research early on, or botany and biology, and what you do now? Does any of this reflect in terms of your personality?
Tess: I’m trying to think about your question. It always comes down to problem solving. There’s always something; it’s either a puzzle that needs to be fitted or an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Those are skills that are transferrable from one line of work to another, being able to find the answer. There’s always a question. There’s an obstacle, sometimes, for the aura of gold to be achieved. So, the ability to think around something and to think out of the box, that’s the thread that runs through all of my careers.
Sharon: That was the key word I was thinking of, the thread. That was exactly the word that came to mind. Tess, thank you very much. This is very interesting, and you have an interesting journey. Thank you for sharing with us. We really appreciate it.
Tess: My pleasure.
Sharon: So glad to have you.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Blue Sky Chalcedony
Byzantium Earrings
Byzantium Necklace
Circes Circle Necklace
Illusion Necklace
Ionian Necklace
Its A Wrap Necklace
Naiad Necklace
About Tess Sholom
Warm and malleable but also strong and enduring, gold shines with the spirit of life itself. For designer and jeweler Tess Sholom, gold is both medium and muse. Tess Sholom began her jewelry career in fashion jewelry in 1976, designing pieces that appeared on the runways of Karl Lagerfeld, Oscar de la Renta and James Galanos, and the pages of Vogue and Harper’s Bazaar.
Her fashion work is included in the collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Smithsonian Institution, Museum of the City of New York, the Racine Museum of Art, the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, the Fashion Institute of Technology, and other museums.
After two successful decades in fashion jewelry, she trained as a goldsmith and fell under the spell of high-karat gold. She decided to stop designing high-volume fashion jewelry and begin again as a hands-on studio artist, creating one-of-a-kind 22k gold jewelry in the workshop.
Tess Sholom always had an eye for accessorizing, but she didn’t realize it would lead her to a long and fruitful career as a jewelry designer. While working as a cancer researcher, a long-shot pitch to Vogue opened the door to a 30-year career as a jewelry designer for fashion runways. Her latest career move was opening Tess Sholom Designs, where she creates one-of-a-kind, high-karat gold pieces. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she designed jewelry for Oscar de la Renta, Bill Blass and Karl Lagerfeld; why problem solving is the thread that runs through all her careers; and how she plays on gold’s timeless, mystical quality in her work. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Tess Sholom. Many of you may have been aware of her fabulous statement pieces she designed for the runway, or you may have drooled over the pieces without knowing who the designer was. Today, she has taken a different path and is now both a designer and a jeweler in high-karat gold. She operates Tess Sholom Designs. We’ll hear all about that today, her whole jewelry journey and about what she’s doing. Tess, welcome to the program.
Tess: Thank you. It’s good to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It must be an interesting one, because you’ve covered a lot of different areas.
Tess: It has covered a lot of different areas, and it’s been on for a long time. When I graduated college, I actually went into cancer research. I was working in a laboratory and found that I didn’t like the isolation, so I went to Physicians and Surgeons Medical Center for a year to become a physical therapist. That I liked; solving problems, helping people.
Then, the year I married my husband in 1976, we were invited to a wedding in the woods. We were told to wear jeans because we were going to be in the woods and rolling around in the woods, and I thought, “This is awful. A wedding? This is when I try to get all dressed up in my best, and I’m wearing jeans?” But I complied. I bought a pretty gauze top; they were in style in the 70s. I made a necklace of beads and seeds and ribbons, and I made a belt to go with it. At the wedding, people kept saying, “That’s beautiful. Where did you get it?” Every time I said I made it, they would say, “Well, you should be doing this professionally.” It’s crazy. It put a bug in my ear, and I’ve always been like that. When a path presents itself, I say, “O.K., let’s try this. Let’s try it. Let’s see what’ll happen.”
Sharon: I love that.
Tess: And so, I did. I started walking around looking in stores to see how necklaces were finished. What were the clasps like? Within a month, I took a couple of things to Vogue Magazine. They gave me an instant credit; they gave me an editorial credit right away. Saks Fifth Avenue bought that necklace, and it was featured as an editorial credit in the magazine. That’s how I started. Within a very short time, Vogue Magazine called me and said, “Oscar de la Renta is looking for a jeweler to make jewelry for his runway.” After that, it just kept growing and growing. One designer, Bill Blass, saw my work in Women’s Wear Daily and he got in touch with me; Giorgio di Sant'Angelo and on and on. Karl Lagerfeld sent his secretary to meet me in New York, and then I went to Paris and collaborated with him on one of his shows. I designed jewelry for that show.
Sharon: Did you turn around and go, “Oh my god! Look what I’m doing now”?
Tess: It was like having the tiger by the tail, seriously. I hadn’t planned it. Adornment is old. It’s probably the first attempt at art that man ever made, to separate his body with berry dyes, with beads, with leaves. It’s a very old idea, adornment, and I’ve always felt the picture was not quite finished unless you were accessorizing. It ultimately was natural for me to think about making jewelry to complement a look, an action look, a closing look.
Sharon: I can imagine the peasant blouse you had in that era, but you actually said, “Oh, I need something,” and you made it yourself. I would have just said, “Oh, it needs something,” and gone through my closet or gone without anything.
Tess: That’s interesting. I guess what makes me a maker—from the time I was little, my mother brought me up with the housewifely arts. One of them was embroidery. I learned to use my hands early, and I was always changing things around. If I had a garment and I didn’t like the way it looked, I just changed it. I would put a stitch here, a stitch there. I broke apart some costume jewelry beads of pearls at Claire’s and sewed them on a sweater because I wanted that look. I’ve always done that. I’ve always done things with my hands making things.
Sharon: Would you say you were artistic from a young age? Besides knowing how to do this, were you creative? It sounds like you were.
Tess: I was creative, but my family was focused on medicine, lawyers, doctors, that kind of thing. They did not think I was artistic. They thought I was a little fussy because I wanted things to look the way I wanted them to look. They didn’t really think of me as an artist.
Sharon: You studied what, biology in college?
Tess: I went to Barnard and I had a bachelor’s degree. My major was in science. It was botany, but I had just as many credits in fine arts, actually. That should have given me a hint, but I was focused on science. That’s where I wanted to be, but it turned out no, I did not like the isolation of a lab.
Sharon: I can understand that. Were you going full time? It seems like there was quite a swath of your career where you were doing jewelry for the runway. Did you do that full time for different designers for a while?
Tess: While I was doing that, I was also supplying boutiques and department stores. I started this in 1976 and very soon, I realized once again that I was alone. I looked in Vogue Magazine to see who else was doing this kind of jewelry, because it was different. High-fashion costume jewelry was very different from the prestigious houses, Monet, Coraux, Trifari. They made beautiful costume jewelry that to this day lasts, but our expression was quite different.
I found a number of other designers in the city who were doing the same thing more or less that I was. We got together and formed an association called the Fashion Accessories Designers Association, called FADA. My husband used to tease me and say, “You’re the mada of FADA,” but we were all entrepreneurs from some other place. One was a court stenographer; one was a potter; one was a knitter, but we all made accessories. So, we formed this organization and sold to the same places, so that we had an ability to protect ourselves a little. Sometimes the big stores would try to take advantage, and because we were all selling to the same people, we were able to defend ourselves.
Sharon: That’s very smart. How did you ferret the people out? How did you find these other people?
Tess: I looked in the back of Vogue Magazine. Wherever I saw a credit that looked more or less like the expression that I was doing, I would look them up and get in touch with them.
Sharon: I want to talk to you more about this, but I want to hear how you got into—now you make things in high-karat gold and precious, not diamonds and stuff, but nice gems, colorful gems. How did you get into making and goldsmithing?
Tess: I had a desire. I always had this desire to have my collection in a museum and to be recognized by a museum. It was a goal of mine somehow, but I never knew what to do about it. However, quite accidentally, the business began to change. The designers were not using accessories so much, so I began to shift my focus towards making sterling silver tea sets and boxes, because I was trying to make sure that if in fact the jewelry did begin to lessen, I would have some other outlet. At that time, someone came to my house for tea and saw a silver tea set. She was a curator from the Museum of the City of New York, and it was fascinating to see her expression. If you remember the scene in Julius Caesar where he’s offered the crown, he wants it; he refuses it, but he’s reaching for it. I saw that same kind of reaction from this lady who was looking at my tea set. Finally, she asked me for it for the museum. It was their first sterling silver acquisition of the 20th century.
Sharon: Did you make it or did you design it?
Tess: I designed it and it was made in my factory by my head metalworker. By this point, I had 20 employees. I literally had a tiger by the tail, because as an entrepreneur, I started out on my tabletop and eventually had to keep moving because I kept increasing. So, that was the first acquisition. I don’t quite remember how the Metropolitan Museum of Art got to me, but they came to me. The Brooklyn Museum of Art came to me, the Museum at FIT. There were a couple of museums in the Midwest that some clients donated to.
That got me thinking about my jewelry as art. I took a couple of courses at Jewelry Arts Institute, and I was fascinated by working with gold. There’s nothing like 22-karat gold. It is beautiful. It’s very malleable; you can do so much with it. There’s something a little mysterious, a little mystical about 22-karat gold, because gold is eternal; nothing can happen to it. It doesn’t rust; it doesn’t turn to ash. The only thing that happens is that you can melt it down and reuse it. So, any piece you have, it could have been a nose ring for a peasant girl; it could have been part of a tiara of queen or a pope. It could be anything, and because it doesn’t really disappear, it has this timelessness, this eternal quality about it. So, that’s how I got into fine jewelry. The gold is the main piece. The main thing about jewelry for me is the gold and the stones. I love color, so of course I’m drawn to stones, but the gold is a means of showing the stones off.
Sharon: Interesting. We will have to link to your website when we post this, and I’m encouraging everybody to look at your website and see the color in the jewelry. It’s just amazing. It’s really striking. It’s beautiful. Were these curators at the museums interested in your things because they thought, “Oh, that’s the most fantastic design?” I think of a museum as saying, “If Paul Revere made that, I’d like to put in a museum.”
Tess: It’s also a history because they wanted a provenance. They wanted to know for whom it was made, who wore it, what season. It was also a means of collecting and annotating history.
Sharon: The same thing with the tea pots?
Tess: No, the tea pot, she just loved the design. That was a different story. That wasn’t jewelry. That was something else and she just loved it. I wasn’t going to argue.
Sharon: I can think of, “Oh, I love it. I want it for my living room,” as opposed to “Oh, I love it. I want to put it in a museum.” I’m not sure I understand the connection between putting these in museums. It’s fabulous to do.
Tess: Why do we collect things in museums then? Museums have changed a lot, but museums essentially are treasure houses. They house treasures; they house things that are deemed to be beautiful. Also, they may spark your imagination or make you think about something differently. So no, I’m not surprised. I was thrilled and surprised that the museums wanted my work, but I’m not surprised that when they think something is beautiful, they want it for the museum.
Sharon: I have to say, I think my whole concept of what a museum is has been changing. I used to think that museums were all history. As I looked at museums in the west, anything over 50 years old is old. I used to think that when I went to a museum, “That’s not ancient,” or “It’s not 500 years old. It’s just from a decade or two ago.” Because I see so many things that are current in museums, or current within the last 25 years, I’m realizing that my concept of what a museum is is outdated.
Tess: Museums are having a difficult time also. In order to survive, they are switching gears. They’re trying many different things so they don’t only look to the past. They’re trying to stay current and be relevant to what’s going on in the world, which is part of what fashion does. Fashion does indicate, mirror and explain an era, always.
Sharon: You fell in love with metalsmithing and silver and gold. Your accessory business where you were designing for the runway, was that still going on?
Tess: No, that began to change, and I decided to stop doing that kind of work. As I said, I foresaw that it was going to begin to change, so I stopped that. I devoted myself more to learning the ancient goldsmithing techniques so I could make everything myself, and then I started selling. First, I stared with semiprecious and silver, and then I moved on to gold. Now I work exclusively in gold and precious and semiprecious stones.
Sharon: And you’re making everything yourself too.
Tess: I’m making everything myself.
Sharon: Wow!
Tess: I’m still learning things, and I still also use the jewelry arts as a studio. It’s fascinating. We all feel so privileged to be able to work in gold. It’s such a wonderful medium. We all have that same attitude of awe about this wonderful metal.
Sharon: It’s really true. I was at a conference several years ago, and someone pointed out that once you take the gold out of the ground, that’s it. It never goes back in, and I thought, “Yeah, that’s really true.” What are the differences you find, besides the fact that everything is a one-off, in terms of what you’re doing? How are you finding the audiences you’re doing this for compared to what you were doing before?
Tess: I started the costume jewelry business in 1976 and for a while, I essentially retired. Now, I find that social media is a very, very different world. I need a lot of help with that. I need help with social media. The younger people understand social media and are good at it, so I need help in that area to perfect everything. I have found that it has been very successful, especially Instagram. Instagram and my website, all of that, has been helpful. Before, I went to an editor, she liked my work and then the rest just fell in step, but now it’s different. For example, in October I’m going to California to do a luxury event. My work is gold; it’s heavy; it’s expensive. That is not something that is sold easily all the time. So, I go to these targeted events where people who are willing to spend the money attend.
Sharon: It is such a different world with social media. I entered the digital world in the mid-90s and the changes since then—it’s a different world. It’s amazing, and it keeps changing every two days.
Tess: I was in a restaurant the other day and this little, two-year-old girl was using her phone. I thought about how it took me many, many years to start using my phone.
Sharon: Yes, when I see kids on their phones, I’m like, “Oh my god!” When you see kids who speak a language you’re trying to learn, it’s amazing. Do you find that you get a response from Instagram and other social media?
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Jameson Murphy
Jameson Murphy is co-founder and general manager of Flor de la Vida, a jewelry brand founded in 2014 and based in Quito, Ecuador. The company uses 3D technology and innovative techniques to create sustainable, handcrafted high jewelry and engagement and wedding rings. Flor de la Vida aims to reshape the business model of selling high jewelry and push the limits of e-commerce in Ecuador and worldwide.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Transcript:
Founded in 2014 with simple silver jewelry sold door-to-door, Flor de la Vida has grown into a global high jewelry brand that combines the inspiration of Ecuador’s natural landscape with cutting-edge design and e-commerce technology. Co-owner Jameson Murphy joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the company sources its materials ethically; why Flor de la Vida partnered with the Polo World Championship; and how blockchain technology is changing the way people buy and invest in jewelry. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: How does the fact that you’re in Ecuador influence your designs? It’s interesting to me. In my questions, I’ve mentioned the Southwest. Everybody talks about the light, or in Iceland, they talk about certain aspects of the country. What does Ecuador have to offer that’s different?
Jameson: Our main product we sell here is engagement rings and wedding rings. We have a showroom here in Quito which we sustain ourselves with, selling and doing this. We also have the vision for luxury jewelry with this Galapagos line. We’ve been inspired by designs that are popular in the US for engagement rings. We’ve tried to work with that style, and it doesn’t always work. I speak with my wife and say, “Hey, what’s going on here?” and she says, “Well, it’s a Latin American group. They have different interests.” You have to market it differently. You can’t just go to a website in the U.S. and say, “Hey, I’m going to take some pictures that look similar to these pictures that work for them.” You need to work with the culture a little bit more. There are designs that are more interesting to the people here that I wouldn’t have thought would be good sellers. Some of our best models have been things I would not have thought would have been.
Sharon: Such as? Can you give an example?
Jameson: Our top engagement ring, the sides are braided with really small, one-millimeter diamonds, and then there’s a central diamond on top. Another design we thought to put in there, and it turned out to be the best design, was something I wouldn’t have imaged. It’s not something very specific, but I’m saying the customers here are drawn to that. It’s something that must be cultural.
Sharon: If I went to Argentina and looked at jewelry, is there something that makes your jewelry specifically Ecuadorean in a sense?
Jameson: Specifically this Galapagos line that just came out. We have the Galapagos, but we also have some of the mountains here. We would also love to get into the Amazon. We have a unique country here. We have the Amazon. We have the Andes. We have the coast and the Galapagos. There’s a lot of physical area that’s good for inspiring. We haven’t gotten into the Amazon yet, but we’d love to do work with that as well. For the moment, the inspiration has been the Galapagos, which has been this line we just came out with.
Sharon: In your mind, when you think about the future and the Amazon, are you thinking of crocodiles, alligators?
Jameson: There’s so much opportunity. I love the colors and the gems, so I’m thinking of frogs, jaguars, all kinds of interesting jewelry that I would love to do for the next line.
Sharon: I guess my question is, I’m somebody who knows very little about Latin America. I’ve been to Argentina; that’s about it. If I come to Ecuador and look at your jewelry and then I go to Brazil, am I going to see a difference in the design and say, “Ah, that reflects that mountains of Ecuador”? What am I going to see that’s different?
Jameson: Well, if we talk specifically about the line I’m making, this is unique to Ecuador. One of the largest mountains in Ecuador is Chimborazo. It’s actually the highest mountain if you’re judging it from the center of the earth, due to the bulge of the planet. It’s the farthest from the center of the earth. This is Chimborazo.
We made a pendant that’s based on the 3D model of this mountain, and we have a sun that’s setting behind the mountains. This is a really unique pendant. This is something that’s unique to Ecuador, and also the wildlife we’re making the pieces of as well.
Sharon: Do you find that people who are travelling or tourists are drawn to this mountain pendant because it’s a reminder? Who is drawn to that?
Jameson: Yes, since we started, we’ve always wanted our jewelry to be meaningful. We understand that this is part of the magic jewelry has. People have an engagement ring and they remember the moment; they remember the feeling. There’s so much connected to it or a pendant. If it was a gift, they remember when they got it, where it came from, and they carry that with themselves. We want this to be the same for people who are visiting Ecuador. Thanks to this event we’re doing with polo, we’re preparing ourselves for the people who come here to take something back home from this event, the polo players, something to give to their wives. We’re also going to be offering it in the cruise, so they’ll remember that. It’ll be something that’s meaningful. They’ll remember the whole event, their trip to Ecuador, the polo, that it was a gift. We want to incorporate all of this and have it represent this meaning to the people.
Sharon: If you put the polo aside, do you think your customers see meaning in the jewelry you’re doing that says, “Oh, this is uniquely Ecuadorean,” or “I wouldn’t find this in Colombia”? Is there something that’s a little different? I’m just trying to understand if there is some differentiation. You’re talking to somebody who’s so naïve about the geography and that culture.
Jameson: Sure, the wildlife is unique, the wildlife in the Galapagos. We also made a sea iguana. In the Galapagos, they have the only sea iguana that exists.
Sharon: Oh, a sea iguana, really?
Jameson: It goes into the water and eats algae, and then it comes back out and dries out on the land. It’s the only iguana in the world that actually goes out to sea. So, we took an image of this. We made a really elaborate iguana, and he’s holding a big tanzanite. We wanted to create a link with Africa, where these gems are coming from, and the Galapagos. He has studded emeralds going down his back, so it’s a really beautiful piece and it’s unique. This is absolutely Ecuadorean. You wouldn’t think of Colombia or anywhere else, because this is the only place in the world where you can find this animal.
Sharon: That’s interesting, a sea iguana. Has this been a popular item? I realize it’s a high-end item from what you’re describing. Do people say, “Oh, this is something I should have in my shop because I have people who will want something like this”?
Jameson: The sea iguana is actually the piece that has gotten the most attention. I reached out to some other polo groups thinking, “I’m in this world. I’m going to take advantage of it to see what I can what I do with it.” There’s another owner of a polo group and she said, “Wow! I want to make a trophy also. I’m not even thinking of doing it in Ecuador. I want to make a trophy out of a sea iguana.” She wanted to do it, and she actually used the image of the jewelry I sent her as her WhatsApp image for a couple of days, just showing her friends and letting everyone know about this image she loves. I believe she’s probably going to be the first customer for this piece, hopefully.
Sharon: I hope that comes to pass. This is really talking about niche marketing here, the niche of the polo group. In five or 10 years, we’re going to talk and you’re going to be the polo jeweler, in a sense.
Jameson: That would be great. That would be a great spot to be for lovely jewelry.
Sharon: Oh, sure.
Jameson: You need a client who can afford a piece like this. Polo is definitely known to have high-net-worth attendees to a game like this.
Sharon: Where else are they playing this in Latin America, this sport?
Jameson: Where else are they playing polo?
Sharon: Yes.
Jameson: Like I mentioned before, I know it’s really big in Argentina. They do horse breeding. They do their own tournaments and everything, so it’s definitely very important in Argentina. I couldn’t say how important it is in other places in South America.
Sharon: Would there be resistance with an Argentine team saying, “You’re from Ecuador. Why do we want something made by people in Ecuador or designed by people in Ecuador?” Would there be barriers in terms of the culture or somebody saying, “We’ll do our own”?
Jameson: For the jewelry do you mean?
Sharon: Yeah.
Jameson: It would have to be meaningful to them. If I say, “Hey, check out this sea iguana. Would you like to buy this?” and if it’s not meaningful to them, if they’re not doing an event in Ecuador, if they’ve never visited Ecuador and they don’t think about coming to Ecuador, it’s certainly not going to be interesting to them. They’ll say, “Hey, it’s interesting, but what am I going to do with it?” That’s definitely a barrier. So, you need people that see meaning in this as well. I need to find them. Like I mentioned, the people that are running this event, they have a cruise line that goes from the coast of Ecuador out to the Galapagos, so, I can also do marketing on the cruise line. This is an opportunity because this means I’m reaching people that see deep meaning in Ecuador. They’re here visiting with their family. They’re here with their wives, their husbands, and this is a meaningful moment for them, so yes, they are interested in this. That’s a great way to reach them. Just like you mentioned, if I show it to everybody, they could say, “Hey, it’s interesting, but I’m not planning on visiting Ecuador. I’ve never been in that corner, so it wouldn’t be that interesting for me.”
Sharon: It’s interesting to me, because talking to different makers, jewelers, I don’t hear a lot about finding your niche. It’s so important that you’re being very targeted. Your money goes a lot further, and it’s so much easier to find your market.
Jameson: Right.
Sharon: In your background, you mentioned e-commerce and blockchain. How does that play into what you’re doing in terms of selling your jewelry?
Jameson: Blockchain is something that’s very interesting. This is something I’ve been interested in for a long time. About six years ago, Bitcoin came out—I don’t how long ago—but it’s something that’s always been interesting to me. I’ve followed it; I’ve investigated it; I’ve spent a lot of time looking into it. I’ve never actually had something to do with it. It’s just been something I love investigating about the economy and I find interesting. Blockchain, based on cryptocurrencies, is something I found interesting, so I thought, “How am I going to link this to jewelry?” Have you ever heard of an NFT?
Sharon: I’ve heard of it, but is it possible to briefly and succinctly—because I know it’s such a complicated area—explain the blockchain and NFTs, which is very important in jewelry?
Jameson: Sure, an NFT is a non-fungible token. It’s a very specific name, but basically it’s a digital item that is unique, and you know it’s unique because it’s backed by the blockchain. A blockchain is something that is non-centralized that can safely record information. You know the information is correct because it’s not produced by anybody; it’s actually produced by everybody in some way. We could say it like this. So, an NFT is a digital file that’s unique, and you know it’s unique because it is linked to the blockchain.
To give an example, there’s a business that’s selling diamonds as NFTs. For the jewelry industry, it’s easier to understand how this could be useful. There’s a business called Icecap Diamonds and they sell NFTs. I can go online and if I have a cryptocurrency—I need Ethereum, specifically—I can buy one of these diamonds. So, I buy it and what do they send? They send a digital copy of this diamond. What can I do with this? I could sell this to another person. Now, I need to know there’s actually a physical diamond related to this, so this is important: I need to trust this business, that not just anybody is selling me an image of a diamond. It needs to be a trustworthy business, but I can buy this diamond, and this is an investment.
I have a digital image; I have it my cryptocurrency wallet. I can sell this to somebody else if they’re interested, or I can burn this image. This one of the terms. If I burn this, in a sense I’m going to be canceling it, and then they send me the diamond physically. If I actually want the diamond physically, they can give it to me. I can have it in my stock; I could use it as an investment. These are specifically investment-created diamonds. If I had it physically, any time I want to have my NFT again, I want to sell it or I want to have my digital backing of this diamond, I send it back to them. They check it out and make sure this is the same diamond, that there’s no damage or anything, and they reactivate my NFT so I have it again. They have it in their safe. It’s in their bank, in their vault, and then I have this digital image or file showing that I have this. It’s just an interesting way of investing. They’re using this towards people that are investing. That want to diversify their portfolios. They can easily buy a diamond and sell it to other people or have the diamond and buy it back.
I wanted to do something similar myself, so I was thinking, “How can I do this? How can I do an NFT with jewelry?” Reaching out to another polo group, I got in contact with another owner of a major league polo group in the United States. I saw in the news that she was doing an NFT deal with polo players and making NFTs of polo players. This is basically like trading cards, you could say. They have value because you know that there’s only one or 10 of them, and you know exactly how many and you know who produced it. If we’re talking about baseball cards, you know it’s an official baseball card and you know there are only 10 in circulation, and that gives it value. An NFT has something similar. If I make cards of the best polo players and I only make one or ten of them, then it has a value of whatever value people give it knowing it’s unique.
I saw that she was a doing a big deal and she just got a big contract with this for players, so I reached out and said, “Hey, I’m making this jewelry. Would you be interested in doing some trophies or NFTs?” She was thrilled, and we actually just got a contract. I’m going to be doing an NFT jewelry line with her. This is exciting. This is digital jewelry, but it’s also exchangeable—there’s a better word for it—meaning that if they burn the image, I send them the piece of jewelry. If they send it back to me or we destroy this NFT, then I send them the physical piece of jewelry or they can have the image, which represents a piece of jewelry they can have any time or sell. Someone else could buy it. They can trade this with other people. The jewelry is based on a mascot for this polo league, which is a unicorn. It’s a unicorn that we made, and it has a gem in its belly. This is the image. People can buy this, and if they want this necklace, they let us know. They exchange the NFT for the necklace, or they can hold onto it or trade it to other people if they want.
Sharon: So, if I’m a member of the league, she sends out a catalogue with T-shirts and keychains and a picture of your unicorn with the gem, and then I say, “Oh, I really like that.” Is it the same price? Would I pay the same amount for this image as I am for the gem?
Jameson: Yes, you pay the full price. If you want the piece of jewelry, then you have to exchange the image for the jewelry, or you can just have the image that’s tradeable so anybody else could buy it from them. From the blockchain we will know who the owner is. You can see who has always been the owner from the creator, so whoever the owner is can say at any moment, “I would like to now have this necklace,” and then you produce it and send it to them.
Sharon: When you say “you,” will you be producing it?
Jameson: I will be producing it, yes.
Sharon: Do you have to have it in stock in case people want them?
Jameson: No, that’s one of the exciting pieces. We could sell potentially hundreds of these and not have to make them until somebody requests it. That’s an interesting aspect.
Sharon: But you have to know how to make it, right?
Jameson: Absolutely, yes. We have tested; we have everything ready. We know we can make it.
Sharon: Wow! Do people pay with Bitcoin? Do they pay for these with Bitcoin, or can I send you a check or an electronic transfer? How do people pay?
Jameson: We’re just doing press for it right now. Last week we launched it. We’re getting people excited about it. We’re creating hype, so it’s not for sale yet. Depending on the platform we put it on—because there are a lot of different platforms, websites that offer NFTs. Some you can only pay in cryptocurrencies; others you can pay with a credit card, and they convert it because it has to be related to the blockchain at some point. We don’t have it defined. It’s probably going to be in cryptocurrency first.
Sharon: When you say the blockchain--I don’t know how many times I’ve tried to understand this—the blockchain, can you explain how that fits into all of this? The blockchain, is that the cryptocurrency? Is that the different kinds of cryptocurrency that makes up a blockchain?
Jameson: Sure, I could clear this up a little bit. Specifically, I have studied Bitcoin. There are so many cryptocurrencies we now have. They all have something unique to them, which is exciting. They’re different. They’re not just a copy of Bitcoin, although some are and they just put a different name on it. Basically, a blockchain is a ledger that is confirmed by no one. Let’s say I have a ledger; I have a back account that says I have $100 and you have $100 in your bank account. I send you $100, and who confirms that I sent you the $100? We need the bank. We need a bank that says, “O.K., Jamie really had $100 and he really sent Sharon $100 and she really accepted $100.” We need somebody in between us to verify that this transaction has taken place. Blockchain is a technology that uses cryptography to be able to confirm that I have $100 or 100 Bitcoin and I sent it. This cryptography confirms that I really have $100 or 100 Bitcoin.
Sharon: What’s this cryptography?
Jameson: This is complicated. I don’t know it in the depth that I should, but cryptography means there’s a whole impressive algorithm that confirms that I actually have this, that I actually sent it. Let’s start from there, because later I’ll explain exactly how it’s interesting as well. This digital surveyor, let’s say, confirms that I have this, that I’m sending it to you, and that I’m not sending it to two people at once, because I could try to send—like I have a hundred Bitcoins, so I’m going to send a hundred to one person and I’m also going to send a hundred to my brother, but it’s the same hundred Bitcoin and I’m trying to cheat the system. This is impossible. This won’t happen because the cryptography says it can only go one place. I could possibly trick the system for a little bit of time, but because it’s a blockchain and every block of it is connected to the next, there are so many computers that are confirming this at once that I wouldn’t be able to trick the system for very long. Let’s go into what these computers are doing. Have you ever heard of someone who mines cryptocurrency or mines Bitcoin?
Sharon: No, you’re talking to somebody who knows very little. I’m working in cash. But people mine this stuff, did you say?
Jameson: I’m almost done. I understand that this is a pretty far-out topic, but it’s actually related to the jewelry, so I can bring it around. When somebody is mining cryptocurrency, you basically turn on your computer and you use your computer to look at a whole bunch of numbers. If you can look at the numbers fast, if you have a really big computer and you’re reviewing these numbers, which is checking the cryptography—you don’t know what you’re checking; you’re just reviewing that the cryptography is correct. What you’re doing is confirming the transactions people make.
There are millions of people right now, at this moment, who are mining cryptocurrencies. They turn on their computers and they link them to a centralized place where you’re confirming all of these transactions. You don’t know whose transaction you’re confirming. You have no idea what you’re doing, but your computer is checking that the cryptography is correct. Why would anybody do this? Because cryptocurrencies reward you if you solve the transaction. You found out the transaction is correct. You don’t know whose it is or where it is, but you solved it. Your computer found the bits, the numbers that link together, so then you earn Bitcoin. The Bitcoin itself produces and sends you Bitcoin, so nobody sent it to you. You don’t know whose transaction you solved, but you solved it; you solved it with cryptography, so there’s no third party. You’re solving everybody’s transaction, so it’s decentralized.
Sharon: I’ve seen several sites where people say, “We accept Bitcoin.” Have people paid you in Bitcoin for things?
Jameson: A few, yes.
Sharon: Has that been something you’re comfortable with, in terms of giving somebody a piece of jewelry and they give you Bitcoin?
Jameson: Like I mentioned, we’ve come a long way from when we started, just making some artisanal silver jewelry. It was a limit that I had. We had a customer who reached out to us. She was a South African customer. She said, “Hey, I’d like to buy some jewelry, but I’d like to pay you in Bitcoins.” This was the first time. I said, “O.K., I’ve got to figure out what it is. If I don’t know what this is, how am I going to accept it? And if I don’t know what it is, I’m limiting myself.” I wanted to look into it; I wanted to know. I found it really interesting and I found out everything I could. I say, “Well, it’s currency.” If somebody sends you Bitcoin, it’s not that hard to go on a platform and turn it into US dollars and deposit it in your bank account. It’s really simple, actually. There’s a lot of resistance because people don’t know what it is, but it’s not that difficult to turn it back into US dollars.
Sharon: That’s very interesting. There was so much resistance among dealers just going online until Covid. For years, I was trying to encourage friends who are dealers or in the business to go online, do your website, and nobody did it until there was nowhere else to sell your stuff with Covid. Anyway, is it Jamie? I know you said Jameson, but you go by Jamie.
Jameson: I used to go by Jamie, yes.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today. This is really interesting. You’re going to become the expert and people are going to be coming to you and saying, “How do I do this with Bitcoin?”
Jameson: I’m glad to talk.
Sharon: Thank you so much. It’s greatly appreciated.
Jameson: Thank you so much, Sharon. Thanks for having me here.
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About Jameson Murphy
Jameson Murphy is co-founder and general manager of Flor de la Vida, a jewelry brand founded in 2014 and based in Quito, Ecuador. The company uses 3D technology and innovative techniques to create sustainable, handcrafted high jewelry and engagement and wedding rings. Flor de la Vida aims to reshape the business model of selling high jewelry and push the limits of e-commerce in Ecuador and worldwide.
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Transcript:
Founded in 2014 with simple silver jewelry sold door-to-door, Flor de la Vida has grown into a global high jewelry brand that combines the inspiration of Ecuador’s natural landscape with cutting-edge design and e-commerce technology. Co-owner Jameson Murphy joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the company sources its materials ethically; why Flor de la Vida partnered with the Polo World Championship; and how blockchain technology is changing the way people buy and invest in jewelry. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Jameson Murphy, co-owner with his wife of Flor de la Vida, a jewelry establishment located in Quito, Ecuador. Jameson is our first guest from South America. Flor de la Vida has some interesting points of differentiation. He will tell us about these as well as his own jewelry journey today. Jameson, welcome to the program.
Jameson: Thank you, Sharon. Pleased to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you a maker? How did you get into it? Did you study it?
Jameson: I didn’t actually study it. When I started in jewelry, I had no experience. This was about eight years ago. I was living in Ecuador with my wife. We had people that were coming to visit us frequently from the United States, family, friends, so we thought about how we could make the best of these trips. People can bring us things, and that would make it easier to ship it. It was difficult to bring things into the country at that time. My wife had experience with making jewelry. She had some friends who were jewelers. She had a little bit of experience, so we thought we could have them bring gems, semiprecious gems, and we could make jewelry out of it. We could design some things, and we knew someone who could make them for us. That was where we started. We had some friends and family bring some stones down, we made some designs, and we basically just offered them to friends, people we knew, and started selling jewelry. That was the beginning. That was about eight years ago.
Sharon: It sounds like the political climate, the financial climate, has changed since then and things can enter the country more easily.
Jameson: Importing has become much easier just in this year. We had a real protectionist government that was good in a lot of ways, but difficult for bringing things in. That’s really opening up now. That brings more opportunity, but also brings more competition, so there are ups and downs to every side.
Sharon: Well, I’m glad that at least bringing stuff in is easier. There’s always competition, right?
Jameson: Right.
Sharon: Tell us about Flor de la Vida. What does the name mean? How did you come up with it? Who are your customers? Tell us about that.
Jameson: When we started, like I mentioned, it was silver jewelry. We hadn’t thought of doing gold jewelry at first, but we wanted it to be meaningful jewelry. We wanted to do jewelry with significance, with sacred geometry. Flor de la Vida is “the flower of life,” which is a geometrical pattern based on sacred geometry. It doesn’t belong to any one culture; it’s a geometry that’s universal. These were the designs we were making. We specialized in reiki jewelry—
Sharon: What’s reiki?
Jameson: Reiki is a Japanese health technique. It’s an energetic healing technique. They use symbols and healing with energy, and we were making the image of the symbol. This was the start of it. We felt that Flor de la Vida, the flower of life, would be a good name for our business.
Sharon: Did it take you a while, a lot of thought, in terms of coming up with the name, or did you sit down and say, “Hey, this is what we’re doing. Let’s do this”?
Jameson: We had another partner at that time. It was me, my wife and another partner, and she said, “Please, I want to use this name. Let’s do it.” We didn’t question her about it. We said, “O.K., let’s do it.” We liked it also, so it didn’t take too much thought. I was thinking about ideas, trying to see what it could be, but she asked us if we could do this, and we liked the name as well so we went with it.
Sharon: Yeah, it’s a memorable name. Who do you sell to? Do you sell to other retailers? Do you sell directly to the consumer? Do you sell online?
Jameson: We’ve evolved a lot. This was the beginning, like I mentioned. We started like this, just selling to people we knew. We showed jewelry to friends and family. Our partner at that time, she was someone who would sell jewelry. She would go to conferences. She was like a door-to-door salesman at that point, but it wasn’t door-to-door. She would go to offices; she would go to government buildings. She would sell to anyone she could. So, we also would go that way, and we thought, “These designs are great. We’re selling them, and it’s about the same amount of work to sell a silver piece of jewelry and to make a gold piece of jewelry. Let’s try it.” So, we invested in making some gold jewelry. We sold it and said, “Well, these semiprecious gems are great to use. We love them, but let’s try some emeralds; let’s try some rubies; let’s try some other things,” and we sold them as well. We just kept on going from there, realizing we could keep on growing and the limit was the limit we were putting on it. Just keep on trying to overcome the limits, see what else can I do. How am I limiting myself? What can I open up to? That has brought us to now, where we’re selling to people internationally. We sell luxury jewelry. We’re working with polo. We’re making a polo trophy for a World Cup event.
Sharon: Yeah, you mentioned that. Tells us about it. Is polo big there? You mentioned that you were commissioned—
Jameson: Not especially big. There are clubs in all the major cities. There’s a polo club and they are active. They do polo, but not like in other countries. In Argentina, I know polo is really important for the country, but in Ecuador, it’s a sport that people do. There is a group of people that are into it, but I wouldn’t see it on television. I don’t see people talking about it so much. The United States, they have a connection with a cruise line they have in the Galapagos, so they set up a World Cup event. It’s the US v. Ecuador. They’re going to do this World Cup event, and they asked us to do the trophy. We designed a really unique Galapagos-themed trophy, which is going to be presented in February of 2022.
Sharon: Is this a gold trophy?
Jameson: No, it’s going to be bronze. It’s enormous. It’s larger than a meter. This is a perpetual trophy. That means that every year, they’re going to repeat this event and every year, the winner will be put on the plaque on the bottom of this. It’ll keep getting bigger and bigger and bigger along the decade. This is a perpetual trophy that should keep them going for a long time. I understand there’s been a contract between the US and Ecuador, and this is an ongoing event.
Sharon: When you say a perpetual trophy, does the person take it home? Does somebody on the winning team take it home?
Jameson: No, it stays at the club where the event is. That means it’s perpetual because it keeps being the official trophy for many years, but we are also making smaller trophies the two teams will take home. So, the winning team has a slightly larger trophy and the other team has a smaller trophy.
Sharon: When you say a Galapagos-themed trophy, does it have animals on it, sea turtles? That’s what I think of.
Jameson: This is new to us. We had never made a trophy before, so we did a lot of investigation. What is the meaning of a trophy? Where does this idea come from? It’s a symbol of victory. You’ve taken over another city; you’ve dominated, and this shows the wealth you have acquired. It’s an award symbol, so we looked into that. What is the symbol of it? What are polo trophies like, because there are trophies for all the different sports and they can be unique in different ways. With polo trophies, we saw they all had this Greco-Roman style. It’s classical, it’s elegant, and so we wanted to incorporate that. We didn’t want to make something completely different from that, so we incorporated that but made a huge Galapagos tortoise as the base of it, and then it has a big Roman column coming out of it. It’s a beautiful combination of Ecuador. You can see it’s like a huge island, this Galapagos tortoise, and then coming out are the similar things you know. It’s really extravagant and elegant.
Sharon: It sounds wonderful. Was it controversial? Did you have to do several designs when you presented your ideas?
Jameson: We wondered how it was going to be accepted. We pitched it as an idea. We said, “This is an idea we came up with. We think it looks great but let me know, because obviously the other people have to accept it, the people who are organizing the event.” They loved it. The saw it and said, “Yes, this is incredible. We love it. Do it. I’ve never seen anything like it before.” It was extremely unique to them, and seeing their excitement was great for us. We knew we had really hit home with something they hadn’t seen before, and that was exciting. They said they’re going to put it in polo magazines worldwide. They’re excited about it; we’re excited about it, and from the first time we presented it, they accepted it.
Sharon: Wow, that’s fabulous! It doesn’t happen often, so that’s great.
Jameson: That was great.
Sharon: Are you going to be doing a line of jewelry to go along with this?
Jameson: Yes, we’ve designed a line of jewelry to go with this. This is a high-luxury line, and it all has an Ecuador and Galapagos theme. We have some turtle-themed pendants, whale-themed bracelets, and all these features sustainable rare gems. We teamed up with a family that does amazing work, Roger Dery. They go as close to the mine as they can. They source these gems, and they buy strictly from the locals when they can. They return many times to the same places so they get to know these people and find the best gems they can. Roger Dery is the father of the family. He’s the cutter. He’s an award-winning precision cutter. Every cut is specific to the chemical compound so their refraction can be displayed excellently.
In investigating, we found this family and their gems and we said, “We want to do jewelry with them because we want to do sustainable jewelry.” They do this work. They know where they are coming from. It’s a family business. We like what they’re doing. They also have a nonprofit called Gem Legacy, and we thought this was great. We want to do work with them; we want to be part of this. People can be aware of where this comes from and take an interest in other human beings and the environment, which is important for us as well. So, this jewelry line is based on Galapagos themes and rare gems, really beautiful, rare gems.
Sharon: Have you already presented the line, or is it something you’re developing now?
Jameson: We do have this design. It’s completely designed. It’s 3D modeled and rendered. We have everything ready. We have done tests on it. We don’t have it made yet. We don’t have it in stock, but we know it’s ready. We have it and it’s presentable, so we can market it. We can do it through e-commerce; we can get people interested. Everything is ready to go, but we don’t have it physically, which is one of the benefits of the technology we use, which is being able to sell a piece before we actually have it. We work with very little stock, and we offer a lot of products we know we can make thanks to the current technology.
Sharon: When you’re selling this, are you presenting designs? You don’t have your door-to-door person anymore, and people aren’t walking into a store. Are you going to shows? How are you doing that?
Jameson: We’re doing it online at the moment through social media. Also the polo event; we’re connected to their mailing list, so this is specifically interesting to them, people that are playing polo or they’re related to the event, they’re coming to the event and they’re going to do the Galapagos cruise. I have contact with these people, and I’ve also reached out to other polo groups. I said, “Hey, look what we’re doing here. It’s something we’re excited about. Hopefully you like it as well.” And this opens it up. It’s a lot of reaching out, building and doing it digitally. We’re taking advantage of the moment, which is one in which everything needs to be digital. In Ecuador, we’re still living in the pandemic. I understand that in other parts of the world, everything has eased up a lot, but down here, we’re pretty much still at the home office mainly. From here, we’re able to reach the world, which is exciting.
Sharon: Yeah, everybody’s involved. I think a lot of parts of the world are still dealing with Covid. It eases and then it tightens. That’s what’s happening in Los Angeles. Did you buy your polo whites yet? Do you buy your horse and your polo outfits?
Jameson: Not yet. I’m getting ready for that. That’s in February. This will be my first polo event I’m going to. This is new to me. I did go the club and I met the owners. I wanted to know where the trophy’s going to be, so I got to check it out, but there wasn’t an event at the time when I went.
Sharon: I don’t know anything about polo. Is it seasonal? You can’t play in the snow.
Jameson: I’ve done a lot of investigation. There actually is snow polo. I believe it’s in Switzerland or somewhere in the Alps; they actually make a snow polo event. They make the polo ball larger and red so they can see it. I’ve even seen images of elephant polo that I believe are in India. I haven’t seen any videos of it. There are a lot of different variations.
Sharon: Is it a summer sport? Is it a spring and summer sport?
Jameson: I understand that it’s active now. It’s a summer and, I believe, a fall sport. I know the people I’m organizing the event with, they’re busy right now; they’re in full season, so summer and fall it seems like. Like I mentioned, this is my first year going into it, so I couldn’t give the exact details. Here in Ecuador there are not really seasons. We’re right on equator, so there’s basically a dry season and a wet season, but that changes day to day.
Sharon: What was their level of interest in jewelry when you said you also wanted to do a jewelry line that reflects the cup you’re doing? What was their level of interest in having something like that?
Jameson: They weren’t specifically interested in that. That was us taking advantage. They said, “Hey, you could do this. You could do this. We can open up our cruise line,” so they gave us some ideas. They were more interested in the trophy and they just threw us some ideas of things we could do. We took advantage of them and said, “That’s great. We’ll make a line. Please give us your mailing list. Let’s reach out. Let’s do a release of this line.” That was more us taking advantage of the situation as much as we can.
Sharon: I talk with a lot of people who are entrepreneurs, but you sound very entrepreneurial. You talked about sustainable gems. How do you know they’re sustainable?
Jameson: That’s a good question. You have to work on trust, really. I’ve been working with this family for a couple of years, and I’ve seen their work. I know they’re dedicated, and that’s really the best I can do if I’m not at the mine myself. It’s a good question; it’s on trust. If we’re talking about gold, the gold they buy—I use recycled gold here in Ecuador—if it’s coming from an artisanal mine, it’s probably going to be using mercury. That’s something you’d like to avoid, but that’s something that’s always happening in the world. We just try to do our best. We set the intention and we try to do what we can. So, use recycled material, work with people you trust and try to do good. Try to even do better than you were doing; try to open up more.
Sharon: What does sustainability mean to you? What do you look for? You’re doing your best. Sometimes you have gold that’s been mined with mercury, but in your gems, what does sustainability mean? What are you looking for?
Jameson: For sustainability, I would look for the human relation, so where these gems come from. Are you supporting a community or are you buying gems that come from a place where people are exploited? So, sustainability mostly in the human sense. These gems I’m using for this line, we know these are coming from communities where people work together. They’re farmers and miners, so these are people that benefit deeply from the gems they sell. They can continue living in their communities and living a meaningful life with dignity. This is what we strive for.
Sharon: Is this true just for the polo gems or is this true in general?
Jameson: We would love to open this up as much as we can. In Latin America, there’s not much market for this. If we market this and put a higher price, there are not really any clients we’ve come across yet that are going to say, “Hey, I’m willing to pay more because I care about this.” In Latin America where we do most of our sales, there’s not really a market for it. But when we’re reaching out through e-commerce and the internet, we’re trying to reach out to the world, which also help grow this. Reaching more people, making more sales, showing more people that this is a future we can all work towards. This helps the movement itself.
Sharon: So, people are not coming to you and saying specifically, “I want jewelry that has gems from sustainable sources.” They’re not coming and asking for that.
Jameson: No, that’s our interest, so we’re trying to promote this. We’re trying to move this. Really, nobody’s asking for that right now, but we want to promote it. We want to get this idea out there and we want to make it better. We want to do whatever we can to promote this and make everything more sustainable than what we do.
Sharon: And recycled gold, I assume that’s not really at sale. People put up their jewelry and you melt it down and use it for something. Is that what we’re talking about?
Jameson: That’s what we do. It’s mostly pawned jewelry. We work with it. There’s a business that takes all the pawned jewelry and melts it down. They purify it and sell it to us. Here in Ecuador, it’s mostly pawned. I don’t know where other people get recycled jewelry from.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Susan Cummins
Susan Cummins has been involved in numerous ways in the visual arts world over the last 35 years, from working in a pottery studio, doing street fairs, running a retail shop called the Firework in Mill Valley and developing the Susan Cummins Gallery into a nationally recognized venue for regional art and contemporary art jewelry. Now she spends most of her time working with a private family foundation called Rotasa and as a board member of both Art Jewelry Forum and California College of the Arts.
About Cindi Strauss
Cindi Strauss is the Sara and Bill Morgan Curator of Decorative Arts, Craft, and Design and Assistant Director, Programming at the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston (MFAH). She received her BA with honors in art history from Hamilton College and her MA in the history of decorative arts from the Cooper-Hewitt/Parsons School of Design. At the MFAH, Cindi is responsible for the acquisition, research, publication, and exhibition of post-1900 decorative arts, design, and craft. Jewelry is a mainstay of Cindi’s curatorial practice. In addition to regularly curating permanent collection installations that include contemporary jewelry from the museum’s collection, she has organized several exhibitions that are either devoted solely to jewelry or include jewelry in them. These include: Beyond Ornament: Contemporary Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2003–2004); Ornament as Art: Avant-Garde Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2007); Liquid Lines: Exploring the Language of Contemporary Metal (2011); and Beyond Craft: Decorative Arts from the Leatrice S. and Melvin B. Eagle Collection (2014). Cindi has authored or contributed to catalogs and journals on jewelry, craft, and design topics, and has been a frequent lecturer at museums nationwide. She also serves on the editorial advisory committee for Metalsmith magazine.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Police State Badge
1969/ 2007
sterling silver, 14k gold
2 7/8 x 2 15/16 x 3 15/16 inches
Museum of Arts and Design, New York City, 2012.20
Diane Kuhn, 2012
PHOTO: John Bigelow Taylor, 2008
Portrait of William Clark in a bubble_2
1971
photographer: Unknown
Necklace for the American Taxpayer
1971
Brass with silver chain
17 " long (for the chain) and 6.25 x 1.25 " wide for the hanging brass pendant.
Collection unknown
Dad’s Payday
1968
sterling, photograph, fabric, found object
4 ½ x 4 x ¼ inches
Merrily Tompkins Estate, Ellensburg
Photo: Lynn Thompson
Title: "Slow Boat" Pendant (Portrait of Ken Cory) Date: 1976
Medium: Enamel, sterling silver, wood, copper, brass, painted stone, pencil, ballpoint pen spring, waxed lacing, Tiger Balm tin, domino Dimensions: 16 3/4 × 4 1/8 × 1 in. (42.5 × 10.4 × 2.5 cm)
Helen Williams Drutt Family Collection, USA
Snatch Purse
1975
Copper, Enamel, Leather, Beaver Fur, Ermine Tails, Coin Purse
4 ½ x 4 x 3/8”
Merrily Tompkins Estate, Ellensburg
The Good Guys
1966
Walnut, steel, copper, plastic, sterling silver, found objects
101.6 mm diameter
Museum of Arts and Design, NYC, 1977.2.102'
PHOTO: John Bigelow Taylor, 2008
Fetish Pendant
1966
wood, brass, copper, glass, steel, paper, silver
3 ½ x 3 ½ x 5/8 inches
Detroit Institute of Art, Founders Society Purchase with funds from the Modern Decorative Arts Group, Andrew L. and Gayle Shaw Camden Contemporary and Decorative Arts Fund, Jean Sosin, Dr. and Mrs. Roger S. Robinson, Mr. and Mrs. Marvin Danto, Dorothy and Byron Gerson, and Dr. and Mrs. Robert J. Miller / Bridgeman Images
November 22, 1963 12:30 p.m.
1967
copper, silver, brass, gold leaf, newspaper photo, walnut, velvet, glass
6 ¼ x 5 x 7/8 inches
Smithsonian American Art Museum, Gift of Rose Mary Wadman, 1991.57.1
Front and back covers
Pages from the book
Transcript:
What makes American jewelry American? As Susan Cummins and Cindi Strauss discovered while researching their book, In Flux: American Jewelry and the Counterculture, contemporary American jewelry isn’t defined by style or materials, but by an attitude of independence and rebellion. Susan, who founded Art Jewelry Forum, and Cindi, who is Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like to interview some of the most influential American artists; why they hope their book will inspire additional research in this field; and why narrative jewelry artists were part of the counterculture, even if they didn’t consider themselves to be. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Definitely, it’s a history book, but it’s not, because you really do get that flavor for who they are or what they were passionate about or what they were trying to express. I’m just curious; how did you distill all of this into counterculture? Was that something that you decided in a brainstorm? You could have come up with a lot of different things.
Cindi: I’m going to let Susan to take that, because—and I admit this freely—I had a very specific idea of what the counterculture was and how people slotted into that. Through Susan and Damian, my understanding of the counterculture was broadened in such an incredible way. They really pushed me to open up my mindset and think about it in many different, layered ways, and I have benefited from that dramatically. So, Susan led that. Susan, I’ll turn it over to you.
Susan: O.K., and I’ll try and answer. We had decided to focus on the 60s and 70s and limit it to that time period. That was the counterculture time period, and as I said before, there are so many in the craft world, which I was participating in during that time, that reflect the sensibilities of the counterculture. As we were interviewing these people, what was really interesting is that many of them didn’t necessarily think of themselves of part of the counterculture. They thought of themselves as hardworking jewelers that couldn’t be part of the counterculture because that was the dropout, don’t do anything, take drugs part of the world. But that wasn’t really the counterculture.
The counterculture was especially young people who were opposed to the way that people were living their lives. That got really defined in the 50s, which was a very austere, go to work, make money, buy a refrigerator, get a house and even if it was killing you, do this kind of life. They said, “We don’t want that. We want a life that feels meaningful to us, that has real value.” In all kinds of different ways, that was what the counterculture consisted of: thinking in a different way about how life could be for us, something that’s meaningful, something that you love doing, something that has some consideration of ecology and equal rights and all of the counterwar attitudes reflected in it. That was really what people wanted to do. The counterculture is big and broad.
A lot of people who thought, for example, that Fred Woell was a Boy Scout. If you asked Fred or you saw his papers or you asked his wife, “What kind of car did Fred drive?” A VW van. What kind of food did he eat? Natural foods. Did he build himself a house? Yes, he did, with solar panels on it. He was a counterculture guy. He just looked like a Boy Scout. A lot of the things you learn in the Boy Scouts were actually part of the counterculture, too, the survival skills and all of that. It’s a funny thing to say, but I think in the process of writing this book, we convinced a lot of the jewelers we interviewed that they were part of the counterculture even though they hadn’t realized it themselves either.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Did you enter this process thinking that these people were part of the counterculture, or was that something that came to you as put everything together?
Susan: I think it was kind of there from the beginning, but not really. I think we discovered it along the way. In fact, I don’t think we were thinking about having the word counterculture in the title. I think for a long time we thought it would be “American Jewelry in the 60s and 70s.” I think it was a provocative idea to put counterculture in the title. It might be that it was a bad idea because, as Cindi said, a lot of people have a narrow point of view as to what the counterculture is, but I hope that if anybody decides to pick up the book, they can find a much broader definition, which I think is the real definition. To limit it is not fair to the expression.
Sharon: I think the book does broaden the definition. Before reading the book or looking at the book, I entered into it thinking of Sausalito. I grew up on the West Coast, so to me, the counterculture was Sausalito. My family and I drove through there once when I was a young person, so that was the counterculture, or Berkeley was the counterculture. I Googled the word counterculture, and it’s interesting because it goes through all different periods of history that were counterculture. It wasn’t just the 60s and 70s. Who did you feel it was wrenching to leave out of the book when you had make some decisions?
Cindi: Before I would answer that specifically, to give a little more context, there were a number of jewelry artists who were personally active in all the ways we were highlighting in this book, but their jewelry itself didn’t reflect that. We had long debates about how to deal with that. Ultimately, for better or for worse, it came down to the fact that at the end of the day, the book was about the jewelry. It was rooted in the actual works of art. There were artists whose jewelry did not reflect their personal lives. With those artists, we were able to include them in the book in terms of quotes and information that helped set the stage and provide information, whether it was about things from their own lives, if they were professors, what was in their program, but their jewelry wasn’t necessarily featured. I’m thinking of someone like Eleanor Moty, who was incredibly helpful in terms of the interview that Susan did and being a sounding board, but her jewelry didn’t make it into the book pictorially. There were others who were also like that.
I think I wouldn’t necessarily call it gut-wrenching, but it was something we struggled with over a period of time, because these were artists who were very active; they were active in shows; they were teaching; they were going to Summervale; they were going to SNAG, some of them, some of them not. For me, Wayne Coulter is probably the big regret. I did an extensive interview with Wayne and his wife, Jan Brooks, and it was a great interview. He was very involved with Summervale, and a lot of his jewelry would have fit pictorially in the book, but we were never quite able to get the images and the materials we needed to include the jewelry. He’s included, as is Jan, in terms of quotes and things like that. For me, that would be one that I regret.
Sharon: This is not to say anybody’s second tier. I don’t mean that.
Cindi: Oh no, not at all. Sometimes there are practicalities. This is a time when a lot of the artists don’t even know, necessarily, where their jewelry from the late 60s or early 70s resides. Maybe they had slides of it, but those slides may not exist, or they may have been completely discolored. There were practical issues that made certain pieces and/or certain artists—we were unable to go as far as we wanted to. Susan, what do you think?
Susan: Yeah, I completely agree with all that. I would say that we interviewed a lot of people that didn’t get in the book. There was a lot of jewelry that started up right at the very end of the 70s and went into the 80s. We squeaked in a couple of those people, but what you have to think about is that we’re showing you or talking about examples of people in various phases. Some people were very political. Some people weren’t so political in their work necessarily, but they lived a counterculture lifestyle and participated in counterculture activities, and it shows up in their jewelry but not as strongly as in others. We tried to give a mix of examples of the things we were talking about, but as Cindi said, there were lots of people we interviewed that never showed up in the book. We must have interviewed Laurie Hall, for example, about three times. Her work isn’t in the book, but Damian went on to write about her. That book will be coming out in the fall. We acquired an awful lot of information that didn’t ever get in the book and people we interviewed that didn’t get in the book. You just have to go with the most obvious choices at a certain point and think of them as examples of other people that you could have included, but you didn’t. Maybe some people were upset by that, but you do have to make some decisions. As Cindi said, there are certain practical limitations.
Sharon: I think I gave a birthday party when I was 13, and I was so traumatized by having to make decisions about the guest list. I always wonder about it, if you make decisions about who to put in and who to leave out. Do you know the name of the book about Laurie Hall? What’s it called?
Susan: It’s called North by Northwest: The Stories of Laurie Hall. Or maybe The Jewelry of Laurie Hall.
Sharon: That leads into my next question. Is there going to be a part two or an addition to the book you just wrote, In Flux? There’s so much more material.
Susan: Definitely, there’s more material. Somebody needs to look at African-American jewelers. We barely got to include some aspects of that. Native American jewelers, too, have a whole history that we didn’t really cover at all. These things are whole topics unto themselves, really. We hope someone will take up the mantle and find out more about that. There’s a huge amount of continuing research. We don’t have any plans to do that, so anybody listening can definitely take it up. Go for it. It’s up to you.
Sharon: It sounds like a great PhD project.
Cindi: Yeah, it can be a PhD thesis. There could be a series of articles. It doesn’t have to be a big book about something. You could do all whole symposium based on this topic. You started off with a question about our jewelry journey. I think this is and will be, for all of us, an ongoing journey. Susan and Damian have written this book on Laurie Hall. There will be other threads that, either collectively or individually, we’ll want to take up in continuing our own journey off of this book, areas that piqued our interest and we’ll go from there. As Susan said, we’re hoping people will pick up the mantle.
One of the things we learned through this process, and it’s probably a lesson that should have been obvious to us beforehand, but the field of American jewelry is a young field. For most of its history, there have been dominant narratives. I’m part of that group of people who have helped with those dominant narratives. As a field evolves, you lay down the baseline, then you focus on individual artists, then you go back and start to layer in additional histories in a way that you can actually understand the full field. A lot of the artists we included in In Flux worked on the outskirts of what was previously the dominant narrative. I think as we proved, that doesn’t make their work any less significant, influential, etc. from artists who were part of the dominant narrative. It’s a phenomenal way for the field to continue to grow. I hope that as more institutions of all types focus on contemporary jewelry, it will engender additional layers of that story which will continue to propel the field forward.
Sharon: Cindi, I noticed that when you look the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston website, you’ve been involved in a lot of online programming and symposia and things I didn’t realize. I’m wondering when you’re going to have a symposium on this subject.
Cindi: It would be terrific. Up to this point, Susan and I have been invited to give talks. We did one with Craft in America last fall. We did with MAD. We’ve been invited on your jewelry podcast. I’m also going to be speaking for the Seattle Metals Guild Symposium next month. I would love to do a symposium. For me, in order to do a symposium right, it’s not just about getting speakers together, which you can do virtually, but it’s really about them coming together and having that in-person experience where you can have breakout sessions; you have the conversations in the hallways, all of those kinds of things. I would absolutely love to do that when it’s safe to do it, which is not to say that—there are no current plans. I think our virtual talks have been fantastic, but it would be great to gather the tribe, so to speak, to gather people we interviewed for this book, to gather people who are interested and to share a day or two together to dive into this. I hope that can happen. Certainly, the door is open to it. I just think right now we’re still figuring out what we can do in person and what we can’t.
Susan: I know many of those people are quite elderly at this point in time. Even as we were writing the book, people were dying.
Cindi: Yeah, Ed Woell died. Ron Hill died, and now Nancy Gordon has died.
Susan: Mary Tompkins passed away.
Cindi: Mary Tompkins passed away. Several people had already passed away, but this history will not be quite the same unless people go and interview these older makers soon. This is part of the problem: with them dies a huge amount of information. It’s impossible to know anything concrete about a jeweler unless you actually talk to them. Anyway, I hope that if people do want to take up this mantle or if they do a symposium, they do it soon, because they may be all gone by the time we get there.
Sharon: People do it on Cartier and Renee Beauvois, and they’re not around.
Susan: They also kept better records and took better photographs. With those wealthy jewelry companies, it’s very different than being a unique maker on your own in your little studio. Many of these people weren’t even taking photographs of the work at the time necessarily, or if they were, certainly they were not great ones. They just clicked on a photo link on a slide back. This is not the wealthy, recorded advertising world of Cartier. This is a very different world.
Cindi: As someone who has done a Cartier exhibition, I can also tell you that it’s about the firm and about styles. You don’t learn about who the individual designers were of X, Y and Z pieces, but Susan’s right. For artists who are listening to this, it is incumbent upon you to document your work. Today, there are obviously tools that artists from the 60s and 70s could not have availed themselves of, which would have made it much easier. So, document your work, keep track of your work and update the way you document it, so that somebody 30 or 40 years from now who is wanting to do something in depth on you is not having to battle with an old technology that nobody knows how to use anymore, which then can make things invaluable. I’m old school. I’m a big believe in paper. I know that is completely against the way the world works, but I am wary. I have experience with recorded, even digital formats, that we don’t have the equipment to use anymore; nobody knows how to use it. If you have a paper printout, you’re never going to have that problem. I know that this is environmentally incorrect, that everybody’s moving towards digital files. I have them myself, but I still like paper because it’s what’s going to be preserved for history.
Sharon: That’s very good advice about documenting. It benefits the artist now and makes life easier for those who follow as historians and people who want to look at it academically. Susan and Cindi, thank you so much for being with us today. It was so interesting. Susan, we look forward to your next part, 1A I guess we’ll call it. Thank you so much.
Susan: Thanks for having us, Sharon. It’s been wonderful.
Cindi: Thank you, Sharon.
Sharon: Delighted to have you.
Cindi: Please do let your audiences know that the book is widely available. My plug on all these things is that we know you can buy books from Amazon. Please buy your book from a local independent bookseller, or even better, come to the MFAH’s website. You can buy it off of our website, which goes to support our museum’s programs.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Susan Cummins
Susan Cummins has been involved in numerous ways in the visual arts world over the last 35 years, from working in a pottery studio, doing street fairs, running a retail shop called the Firework in Mill Valley and developing the Susan Cummins Gallery into a nationally recognized venue for regional art and contemporary art jewelry. Now she spends most of her time working with a private family foundation called Rotasa and as a board member of both Art Jewelry Forum and California College of the Arts.
About Cindi Strauss
Cindi Strauss is the Sara and Bill Morgan Curator of Decorative Arts, Craft, and Design and Assistant Director, Programming at the Museum of Fine Arts, Houston (MFAH). She received her BA with honors in art history from Hamilton College and her MA in the history of decorative arts from the Cooper-Hewitt/Parsons School of Design. At the MFAH, Cindi is responsible for the acquisition, research, publication, and exhibition of post-1900 decorative arts, design, and craft. Jewelry is a mainstay of Cindi’s curatorial practice. In addition to regularly curating permanent collection installations that include contemporary jewelry from the museum’s collection, she has organized several exhibitions that are either devoted solely to jewelry or include jewelry in them. These include: Beyond Ornament: Contemporary Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2003–2004); Ornament as Art: Avant-Garde Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection (2007); Liquid Lines: Exploring the Language of Contemporary Metal (2011); and Beyond Craft: Decorative Arts from the Leatrice S. and Melvin B. Eagle Collection (2014). Cindi has authored or contributed to catalogs and journals on jewelry, craft, and design topics, and has been a frequent lecturer at museums nationwide. She also serves on the editorial advisory committee for Metalsmith magazine.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Police State Badge
1969/ 2007
sterling silver, 14k gold
2 7/8 x 2 15/16 x 3 15/16 inches
Museum of Arts and Design, New York City, 2012.20
Diane Kuhn, 2012
PHOTO: John Bigelow Taylor, 2008
Portrait of William Clark in a bubble_2
1971
photographer: Unknown
Necklace for the American Taxpayer
1971
Brass with silver chain
17 " long (for the chain) and 6.25 x 1.25 " wide for the hanging brass pendant.
Collection unknown
Dad’s Payday
1968
sterling, photograph, fabric, found object
4 ½ x 4 x ¼ inches
Merrily Tompkins Estate, Ellensburg
Photo: Lynn Thompson
Title: "Slow Boat" Pendant (Portrait of Ken Cory) Date: 1976
Medium: Enamel, sterling silver, wood, copper, brass, painted stone, pencil, ballpoint pen spring, waxed lacing, Tiger Balm tin, domino Dimensions: 16 3/4 × 4 1/8 × 1 in. (42.5 × 10.4 × 2.5 cm)
Helen Williams Drutt Family Collection, USA
Snatch Purse
1975
Copper, Enamel, Leather, Beaver Fur, Ermine Tails, Coin Purse
4 ½ x 4 x 3/8”
Merrily Tompkins Estate, Ellensburg
The Good Guys
1966
Walnut, steel, copper, plastic, sterling silver, found objects
101.6 mm diameter
Museum of Arts and Design, NYC, 1977.2.102'
PHOTO: John Bigelow Taylor, 2008
Fetish Pendant
1966
wood, brass, copper, glass, steel, paper, silver
3 ½ x 3 ½ x 5/8 inches
Detroit Institute of Art, Founders Society Purchase with funds from the Modern Decorative Arts Group, Andrew L. and Gayle Shaw Camden Contemporary and Decorative Arts Fund, Jean Sosin, Dr. and Mrs. Roger S. Robinson, Mr. and Mrs. Marvin Danto, Dorothy and Byron Gerson, and Dr. and Mrs. Robert J. Miller / Bridgeman Images
November 22, 1963 12:30 p.m.
1967
copper, silver, brass, gold leaf, newspaper photo, walnut, velvet, glass
6 ¼ x 5 x 7/8 inches
Smithsonian American Art Museum, Gift of Rose Mary Wadman, 1991.57.1
Front and back covers
Pages from the book
Transcript:
What makes American jewelry American? As Susan Cummins and Cindi Strauss discovered while researching their book, In Flux: American Jewelry and the Counterculture, contemporary American jewelry isn’t defined by style or materials, but by an attitude of independence and rebellion. Susan, who founded Art Jewelry Forum, and Cindi, who is Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about what it was like to interview some of the most influential American artists; why they hope their book will inspire additional research in this field; and why narrative jewelry artists were part of the counterculture, even if they didn’t consider themselves to be. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guests are Susan Cummins and Cindi Strauss, who, along with Damian Skinner, are the co-authors of In Flux: American Jewelry and the Counterculture. Susan is the founder of Art Jewelry Forum and for several decades drove the organization. Cindi Strauss is the Curator of Decorative Arts, Crafts and Design at the Museum of Fine Arts in Houston. Susan and Cindi, welcome to the program.
Susan: Thank you.
Cindi: Thank you for having us, Sharon.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Can you each give us a brief outline of your jewelry journey? Susan, do you want to start?
Susan: Sure. My journey started in the 80s. I had a gallery in Mill Valley, California. I was showing various crafts, ceramics mostly, and a bit of glass, fiber, a whole grouping, and then I decided I should show jewelry. I don’t really know why, because I didn’t wear jewelry, but it sounded like a good idea. I started showing it, and I was very impressed with how smart and incredibly skilled the artists were. I continued to show that, and the gallery became known for showing jewelry. In 1997, I still had the gallery, and I decided along with numerous other craft groups that we should start an organization that represented the collectors of jewelry. I started Art Jewelry Forum with the help of several other people, of course. That has continued onto today, surprisingly enough, and it now includes not only collectors, curators and gallerists, but also artists and everybody who’s interested in contemporary art jewelry.
Sharon: It’s an international organization.
Susan: Yes, it’s an international organization. It has a website with a lot of articles. We plan all kinds of things like trips to encourage people to get to know more about the field. I also was part of a funding organization, shall we say, a small private fund called Rotasa, and years ago we funded exhibitions and catalogues. That switched into funding specific things that I was working on instead of accepting things from other people. I’ve been very interested in publishing and doing research about this field because I feel that will give it more value and legitimacy. It needs to be researched. So, that’s one of the reasons why this book came into being as well as Flocks’ book. It really talks about the beginnings of American contemporary jewelry in the 60s and 70s. That’s my beginning to current interest in jewelry.
Sharon: I just wanted to say that people can find a lot more if they visit the Art Jewelry Forum website. We’ll have links to everything we talk about on the show. Cindi?
Cindi: Sure. My jewelry journey was surprising and happened all at once. The Museum of Fine Arts, Houston, had no contemporary jewelry in its collection until 2000, when we acquired an Art Smith necklace from 1948. That was my first real knowledge of post-Arts and Crafts jewelry and post-Mid-Century, people like Harry Bertoia. That led me to Toni Greenbaum’s Messengers of Modernism catalogue, a fantastic resource for American jewelry from the 30s through the 50s. It opened a whole new field for me, and I started to think about how we should focus on some modern jewelry from that period to expand on the Art Smith necklace, because that Mid-Century design was a specialty of the institution.
Truly, I would say my life changed in respect to jewelry for the better in every way I could explain. When the museum acquired, in 2002, Helen Williams Drutt’s private collection of artist-made contemporary jewelry, dating from 1963 to 2002 at the time of the acquisition, in one fell swoop, we acquired 804 pieces of international jewelry as well as sketchbooks and drawings and research materials. We began to build an extensive library. Helen opened her archives and we had recordings of artist interviews. It was just going from zero to sixty in three seconds and it was extraordinary. It was a field I knew really nothing about, so I was on a very steep learning curve. So many people in the field, from the artists to other curators to collectors—this is how I met Susan—were so generous to me in terms of being resources. The story about how the acquisition happened is familiar to probably many of your audience, so I’ll keep it brief, which is to say that there was an exhibition of Gijs Bakker’s jewelry that Helen organized for the Houston Center for Contemporary Craft.
Sharon: Cindi, I’m going to interrupt you for a minute because a lot of people listening will not have heard of Gijs Bakker.
Cindi: Sure. Gijs Bakker, one of the most prominent Dutch artists, began his career in the 1960s, along with wife, Emmy van Leersum, and was part of the group of Dutch jewelry artists who revolutionized the concept of contemporary jewelry using alter-native materials. They created a lot of photo-based work challenging the value system of jewelry and also challenging wearability. It was his photo-based work that was shown in a small exhibition at the Houston Center for Contemporary Craft in March 2002 as part of a citywide festival called Photofest, which is all photography-based work. It was through that exhibition, at the opening weekend—that’s how I met Helen. I said to her, “This is something I don’t know anything about. I’m interested in exploring it. I’m starting to build a collection for the museum. Could we meet and have coffee and talk?” So we met, and I peppered her with a lot of questions and said, “Could I call on you for advice in terms of building a collection?” Of course, at this time she had the gallery, and she said, “Well, you know, I have a collection,” and I said, “Yes, I know, and I understand it’s going to the Philadelphia Museum of Art,” her hometown museum. She said, “Not necessarily. We haven’t had any formal talks about that.” So, one thing led to another, and six months later, we signed papers to acquire the collection.
That set me off on my initial five-year journey, which resulted in the exhibition and catalogue “Ornament as Art: Contemporary Jewelry from the Helen Williams Drutt Collection” that opened in Houston and traveled to Washington, D.C., to Charlotte, North Carolina, and to Tacoma, Washington. After that point, I felt that I was really steeped in the field. I have, since that point, been adding works to the collection. It was always going to be a long-term commitment and journey for the museum. We have works installed all over the museum in relationship to other contemporary art, whether it’s photography, prints and drawings, sculpture, painting. We also have a robust presentation of jewelry in our departments’ galleries. It is an ongoing journey, just like with Susan. It’s a journey that never ends, happily. There are always new artists to discover and new ideas. Part of that is our meeting of the mind, if you will, and then with Damian, is what resulted in this book.
Sharon: How did you come to write the book? Susan, you started to mention it. The research in this is jaw-dropping. How did you decide to write the book? Why this particular period, the two of you?
Susan: We decided to write the book because I was wondering what’s American about American jewelry. Europeans have done a lot of research and writing about their beginnings, but I didn’t see a document or a book that really talked about the American origins. As Cindi mentioned, Gijs Bakker started in the 60s. So did American contemporary jewelry, but it’s a very different story than the European one. We wanted to talk to the people who are still alive now, so we did tons of interviews for the book. We specifically concentrated on the pioneers who were responding to the political and social events of the time. In other words, we were investigating those artists who were considered narrative artists, because that was the defining feature of American art to those out of the country. We wanted to discover who was making this work and what were they saying in their narrative, so really answering “What was American about American jewelry?” We did tons of research through old documents of the American Crafts Library. We went all over the country and interviewed, and it was about a five-year-long process to get this point. The book is incredibly condensed. You can feel that there’s a lot there, but it took a lot to condense it down to that.
Really, what we hope is that it’s an easy-to-read story about the stories that jewelers were telling at the time, which was the origin of all that’s come down to us now. It was the beginning of the development of university programs in the country. They just were in the process of expanding them, and people were learning how to make things. Nobody had a lot of skills in this country, so everybody had to learn how to make things. There were a lot of alternative ways of passing around information. The counterculture, we regarded that not as hippies per se, although hippies were part of it, but also a lot about the political and social issues of the time and how people responded to them. The ethos of the time, the values that people developed really became part of the craft counterculture itself. The craft field is based on a lot of those ways of working in the world, a sort of hope and trying to create a new society that had more values than the 50s had aspired to for each individual. People were trying to find ways to have valuable lives, and doing something like making something yourself and selling it at a craft fair became a wonderful alternative for many people who had the skill to do that. That was a very different way of having a life, shall we say, and that’s how American jewelry developed: with those values and skills. I still see remnants of it in the current field. That’s my focus. Cindi, do you have some things you want to add to that?
Cindi: Yeah, the larger public’s ideas and thoughts about American jewelry from that period were rooted in a history and an aesthetic that emerged largely on the East Coast, but certainly spread, as Susan said, with the development of university programs. That was an aesthetic that was largely rooted in the organic modernism of Scandinavian influence, as well as what had come before in America in terms of modernist studio jewelry. There’s a history there in the narrative, and that narrative played out in early exhibitions. It played out in the first SNAG exhibition in 1970 in St. Paul, which is considered one of those milestones of the early American studio jewelry movement.
Now, we knew that there were artists like Fred Woell, Don Tompkins, Ken Cory, Merrily Tompkins, who were on the West Coast and working in a different vein, as Susan said, a narrative vein, and who were often working with assemblage techniques and found materials and were making commentary on issues of the day. Within the accepted history of that period, they were a minority, with the exception of Fred Woell and really Ken Cory. Their work was not as widely known, as widely collected, as widely understood. Damian and Susan and I started after we thought, as Susan said, “What is American about American jewelry?”
Fred Woell was an artist who immediately came to mind as embodying a certain type of Americanness. We had an extraordinary trip to visit with Fred’s widow, Pat Wheeler, and to the see the studio and go through some of his papers. When we went, we thought we would be doing a monograph on Fred Woell. It was on that trip that we understood that it was a much larger project, and it was one that would encompass many more artists. As part of our research, there were certain artists who were known to us, and our hope was that we would rediscover artists who were working intently during that period who had been lost to history for whatever reason. There were also artists whose work we were able to reframe for the reasons that Susan mentioned: because of their lifestyle, their belief system, the way they addressed or responded to major issues during the day. So, we started developing these list of artists.
I think what readers will find in the book is looking at some of the well-known artists, perhaps more in depth and in a new frame of analysis, but also learning about a plethora of other artists. For us, it was five years of intense work. There’s a tremendous amount of research that has gone into this book, and from what we’ve been hearing, it has enlightened people about a period. It's not an alternative history, but it is an additional history. We hope it will inspire people to pick up the mantle and go forth because, of course, one has constraints in terms of word counts for publishing. At a certain point, you have to get down to the business of writing and stop the research, but there are so many threads that we hope other scholars, curators, students, interested parties will pick up and carry forth. In some ways we were able to go in depth, and in other ways we were able to just scratch the surface of what has been a fascinating topic for all of us.
Sharon: I have a lot of questions, but first, I just wanted to mention that SNAG is the Society of North American Goldsmiths, in case people don’t know. Can you explain, Susan or Cindi, what narrative jewelry is?
Cindi: There’s no one definition. Everybody would describe it a little bit differently, but I think a basic definition is jewelry that tells a story, that uses pictorial elements to tell a story. Whatever that story is can range from the personal to the public, to, in our case, responding to things like the Vietnam War, politics, etc. Susan, do you want to add to that?
Susan: It’s a very difficult thing to do when you think about. Narratives usually have a storyline from this point to that point to the next point. Here’s a jeweler trying to put a storyline into one object, one piece. It is tricky to bring enough imagery that’s accessible to the viewer together into one piece to allow the viewer to make up the story that this is about or the comment it’s trying to make. You have to be very skilled and smart to make really good narrative jewelry.
Sharon: It sounds like it would be, yes. When you realized what this book was going to entail—it sounds like you didn’t start out thinking this was going to be such a deep dive—were you excited, or were you more like, “I think I’d probably rather run in the other direction and say, ‘Forget it; I can’t do it’”?
Susan: I don’t think at any point did we stop and think, “Oh, this is a gigantic project.” We just thought, “Let’s see. This person’s interesting; O.K., let’s talk to this person. Oh, gosh, they said these about this other person. Let’s talk to them.” You just go step by step. I don’t think, at any point, did any of us realize how vast a project this was until the end, probably.
Cindi: Yeah, I would say because it happened incrementally, deep dive led to another and another. We would have regular meetings not only over Skype, but we would get together in person, the three of us, for these intense days in which we would talk about—we each had different areas we were focusing on. We’d bring our research together and that would lead to questions: “Should we explore this avenue?” Then someone would go and explore this avenue and come back, and we would think, “Maybe that wasn’t as interesting as we thought it was going to be,” or maybe it was far more interesting than we thought, so it spun out a number of different avenues of research.
At a certain point, we started looking at the most important threads that were coming out and we were able to organize them as umbrellas, and then look at subthemes and think about the artists. It became like a puzzle. We had pockets of deep research, whether it was the in-person artist interviews or whether it was the archival research that was done, whether it was the general research. Damian and I were not alive during this time. Susan was, which was fantastic because I learned a lot about this in history class and school. Damian is a New Zealander, so he was coming at it from an international perspective. There was a lot of reading he did about American history, but Susan was the one gave us all the first-person accounts in addition to the artists. She participated in the American Craft Council Craft Fairs and was able to balance the sometimes emotionless history books with the first-person experiences that made it come alive. I think that’s what you see throughout the book. It was important to us that the book would be readable, but it was also important to us that it would have a flavor of the times. When you do oral history interviews, there are many different kinds of questions that can be asked. We set out to talk not only about the jewelry that artists were making, but their lives, what was important to them, how they felt. The richness of experiences and emotions that came out in those interviews really inflected the book with feeling like you were there and a part of what these artists were thinking.
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About Paul Koudounaris
Paul Koudounaris is an author and photographer based in Los Angeles. He holds a PhD in Art History from the University of California, and he has traveled around the world to document charnel houses, ossuaries, pet cemeteries, and other macabre subjects for both academic and popular journals. His books include The Empire of Death, Memento Mori, and Heavenly Bodies, which features the little-known skeletons taken from the Roman Catacombs in the seventeenth century and decorated with jewels by teams of nuns. His most recent book is A Cat's Tale: A Journey Through Feline History.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Rorschach upper half, chest with skull
Hergiswil stomach full shot
Weyarn head with problem here due to discoloration behind skull due to back lighting through stained glass window
Sonntagsberg felic chest detail
Bad Schussenried head and chest
Peterskirche munditia in shrine three problems, top over curtain over rope and weird candle
Transcript:
Today, covering a skeleton with jewels seems odd or downright morbid. In the 17th century, it was par for the course for the Catholic Church, which covered the skeletons of martyrs with jewels and lavish accessories to highlight the Church’s power. Author and photographer Paul Koudounaris has spent years researching and documenting these little-known historic treasures, which he detailed in his book Heavenly Bodies: Cult Treasures & Spectacular Saints from the Catacombs. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the skeletons (and human remains generally) were an important part of people’s spiritual lives; why nuns were responsible for decorating the jeweled skeletons; and why the Catholic Church’s efforts to honor martyrs didn’t exactly go as it intended. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Paul, I’m thinking: you have a PhD in art history, so you’re a historian skilled in doing research. A lot of what you’re talking about isn’t just looking at something; it sounds like you had to do a lot of digging. Were the things you were talking about, the traditions and things, was this just passed down and the clergymen knew about it when you came to town, or did you have to go find original documents?
Paul: I had to go back to a lot of original source material. Obviously, a lot of this stuff is forgotten about now. I did a lot of digging. It was a good couple of years of very solid research, mostly in Germany. This is very obscure information, but it was rewarding information. When you do research like this, it’s like a jigsaw puzzle in getting all the pieces back into place. In the end, you never get all the pieces; you never wholly fill out the puzzle, but I feel like I did a good job of filling in about 98 percent of the puzzle of those skeletons.
Sharon: I’m sure you know more than anybody else on earth about this. For all of your books, you’ve done the photography. Were you into photography before this?
Paul: I had played around with photography a little bit before, but not professionally. When I did my first book, The Empire of Death, I actually didn’t want to do the photos for the book. I wanted someone else to do them because I wanted to be able to concentrate on the research, and I didn’t want to get too distracted by the photos. I wanted to walk into an old charnel house and be able to concentrate on understanding it as a space rather than immediately running in and looking it as a photographer. In the end, there was no one who could do the photos for me. There was no one who wanted to take that trip and get involved, so, I was forced into the position of doing it. In the end, by both doing the photos and researching them, I understood them all the better. It didn’t distract me; I think it actually helped me focus on them.
After I had done that book, there was no question that I was going to do the photos for the rest of my books. I liked working that way. I did all the photos for Heavenly Bodies. Photographically it was a very hard task because a lot of them are in cases, so they can’t be removed from these glass cases without destroying a lot. It was very difficult, but again very rewarding. I’d like to think by doing it myself and really understanding it, it allowed me to get pictures that, to me, looked more sympathetic than clinical. It might be hard to explain that without looking at other people’s photos, but a lot of times, I felt that by taking the photos, I’d strive for a sense of personality because each of them had something to convey. I felt very close to them by the end of this work; maybe not close to them, but close to the people who once venerated them and those nuns who created them.
Sharon: I could understand how that would be. In the beginning, you were talking about how you got your PhD in art history and you were looking for the niche. How did you stumble on this death niche?
Paul: I studied at UCLA. I was probably the Fox Mulder of the art history department. I was always the guy who, while everybody else was working on Rembrandt, I’d go off and do a seminar paper about wood cuts of werewolves or something like that. It was the things that were not considered high art and were not considered masterpieces. I was always into these things that were visual culture for common people and visual culture that had been pushed to the margins just because we consider it hokey or unseemly. I was always into that kind of stuff. I was not working on the death stuff while I was in grad school. That came later to me, when I was traveling around Europe and I understood this massive part of people’s lives that we had pushed out of the history books just because we were uncomfortable with it, and when I understood the incredibly important role it played in people’s spiritual lives to have these bones around. I do want to talk a little bit about the materials that went into the skeleton, if that’s O.K.
Sharon: Yes, please.
Paul: I think that’s important because people always ask me, “Are these real jewels or are these replicas?” They want to talk about the materials, and I think this can relate to your audience. In most cases, they are glass replicas rather than real rubies or things like that, but there’s a reason for that. When I say they are replicas, a lot of them think, “O.K., it must be cheap,” and it’s not. Nature provides what it provides, and it might not provide the materials we need in perfect shapes and sizes and patterns. So, if you were to decorate a skeleton just with real jewels found in nature, it would be very, very hard to match things up to get a perfect pattern and a perfect flow of material. That is a big part of the reason they were using glass replicas, but when I say glass replicas, I don’t mean cheap. I don’t mean going down to Hobby Lobby or Michael’s and buying junk like people would today. There were very few glass-blowers in Europe who could make presentation-quality replicas of real jewels. They were located in the Czech Republic, in Bohemia and in Venice, and they were very, very expensive. When I say replicas, I don’t mean cheap. If you look at the skeletons and you see these perfect patterns of similarly shaped jewels with a similar sheen to them, that’s because they’re replicas, but they would use replicas so they could complete a decorative pattern perfectly rather than relying on what nature could provide.
A lot of them you’ll see are wearing what looked like wigs. Those wigs are super important. Those wigs are made of gold and silver wire. Talk about incredible expense. There was only one place in Europe that could make wire in the finest of hair, and it was in Lyon, France. They would have to get this wire made out of silver. The reason they would use this gold and silver wire, this metallic wire and precious metal, to make these wigs for them was because they wanted them to stand the test of time. Let’s say I got a nice wig made out of horsehair or something. That would be pretty durable. It’s still not going to last 300 years and hold its shape, is it? No way. But a wig made of coiled precious metal wire will stand the test of time, and it will maintain its shape for hundreds of years. That’s why a lot of them still have these perfect curls, because they’re made out of this incredibly expensive metal wire. These were really, really expensive productions to make. Even when they were made of replicas, they were incredibly expensive.
One question I constantly got asked when the book came out—whenever I did a talk, someone would ask, “How much would this cost to make in modern terms?” I never came up with a satisfactory answer for that because it’s hard enough to say, “Well, today’s dollar versus dollars in 1950,” and that can be kind of deceiving. Now, let’s talk about today’s dollars versus guilder in 1612. You’re talking not just about converting currencies through a vast amount of time, you’re also talking about a different economic system. You’re talking about a system back then where you had incredibly rich people and everybody else was incredibly poor. Even if I said, “O.K., if you base it on such and such, maybe it costs $2 million to make,” that’s still incredibly deceptive because nowadays, over the course of your lifetime, an average person might make $2 million. Back then, an average person who’s out there picking carrots is going to make $2 million in a hundred lifetimes. So, these were extremely expensive even when they were replicas.
Sharon: I’m backtracking a little bit. Were they mixing real jewels with these glass jewels? Would the nuns send an order to the glassblower and say, “I need one this size”?
Paul: It could be. Some of them are real jewels. A lot of times, they might use a real jewel for an accent. A lot of them have pearls. Even the pearls are fake, but the pearls are faked to be the exact same size, because nature doesn’t provide pearls in equally identical sizes. But again, even the pearls that were fake were incredibly expensive to make because you had to start with a perfect, handmade glass jewel, then they had to make a covering for it to get the sheen of a pearl. They had to make the covering out of ground fish paste and paint over this ground fish paste to seal it so it would soak in. It was incredibly expensive.
One advantage was when these skeletons came to town, they were a big deal and they were going to be venerated, so a lot of wealthy people wanted to be a part of them. You might have a local duchess or duke or local count or baron donate things for the skeleton. They might donate authentic jewelry; they might donate authentic jewels, and they might donate clothing, too. You’ll notice a lot of them aren’t just jeweled. A lot of them are jeweled, but they also have what looks like outfits on them. Those outfits were donated by local nobility, and then the nuns would tailor them to perfectly fit the skeletons and make cutouts to show the bone. It’s funny, because if you were into high fashion at the time, you would walk in and esteem these skeletons as wearing yesterday’s clothes. It would be like, “That guy’s a couple of years out of season,” because the nobility will donate fancy, expensive clothes for the skeleton’s use, but they’re not going to donate the clothes they just bought. They’re not going to donate their own clothes. If you were a real nitpicker and you were into high fashion at the time, if you had an eye for it, “Yeah, that look on that skeleton is really last year.” That also would help to flesh out—pardon the pun—the decoration of the skeleton, giving them some extra materials.
One other thing I think is very touching about these skeletons: a lot of them are wearing rings on their skeletal fingers. The rings often would be donated by the nuns when they were done. You mentioned the nuns, obviously, were very trustworthy and loved the skeletons. When they finished, before they put them on display, the nun had a special ring or a ring that was a family heirloom. She would donate it to the skeleton and put it on his finger. What the nuns donated, these rings, that became kind of their artist’s signature, even though the meaning of it is kind of opaque to us. That became their signature, by donating something to the skeleton that would be there when it went on display.
Sharon: Could you tell there was a pattern? There are so many questions I can go through. When you talk about these rings as a signature, did you keep seeing the same ring over and over, or the did the ring have an initial?
Paul: While the nuns were donating their rings, each ring was unique. Those rings were often things that had been passed down their families, like family heirlooms, so each ring would be unique. I became good enough in looking at these skeletons that I was able to tell you the same people worked on this skeleton too. I could tell you that; it’s not that hard to tell. Your listeners who are really into jewelry, I’m sure they’ll know. It’s like, “O.K., when I see a wire bent that way and this done to fix it, I know who did that, because there are certain technical aspects that become signature moves.” There were certain convents in Europe that were particularly famous, that were well-known for doing handwork. They might work on several of them, so I was able to tell, “O.K., these people did this skeleton too,” or “Somebody from that convent worked on part of this one, but not all of it.” You could tell just by those signature, little things about the way they would wind the wire or the way they would set in the jewels.
Sharon: Did the nuns make the silver and gold wigs?
Paul: They would have to bend it. Not all of these were made by nuns. There were some. I should point that out in fairness to my gender. There were some that were done by men, but the vast majority was done by nuns. The most famous group that still exists is in Waldsassen Basilica in Germany. Waldsassen Basilica has 10 of these skeletons, and they are all on display in the church. It’s like the Sistine Chapel of jeweled skeletons. The vast majority of those 10—I think it’s eight of those 10—were all done by one guy who was a lay brother at the basilica who was also a professional jeweler and a smith. I mentioned some of them would also be in suits of armor instead of being jeweled. The ones that are armored, that armor was pretty much universally made for them by men. Smith work was men’s work.
Sharon: Wow! How many books have you written?
Paul: Four.
Sharon: Four books. I’m thinking about all the effort and research and photography that go into one book, let alone writing four of them. So, The Empire of Death, you finished it, and you had the photos you showed the commissioning editor. What more did you learn as you went along, besides the fact that there were skeletons, about the empire of death or the way we view death? Did you think, “I want to say more about this after The Empire of Death”?
Paul: The Empire of Death is really a history book, and it’s a history of charnel houses. It’s not one of these guides to the history of death. It is an art historical tome, and the genre of art is just art in bone. I started on The Empire of Death and then I wrote Heavenly Bodies, and then I wrote a book called Memento Mori, which was a more global exploration because I had been traveling around the world photographing skeletons and bones in ritual contexts. I’ve got to say it took me about 10 years of work to even truly understand what I mean when I use the word death. When you ask this question about what I learned, I learned a lot, but it was a very slow process. Death is the hardest thing for any of us to contemplate, and oftentimes the most troubling thing for any of us to contemplate. It took me a really long time to understand what lay underneath all that material I was working on. I was working on all this death material, but in the end, I think I came out with a better appreciation of it and understanding.
Sharon: Wow! Contemplating death, yes, that is a very difficult topic. We can imagine, but we can’t really know. You’re a member of the Order of the Good Death. What is that?
Paul: The Order of the Good Death is not some kind of heretical, worrisome order. It’s not some secret society. It’s just a group of scholars and researchers and artists who work on death material. It was founded by a famous mortician, as famous as a mortician could be, I guess I should say, by the name of Caitlin Doughty, who has three New York Times-bestselling books about the way we deal with death in our society. She put this together as a think tank or a group to bring together people who were working within society to broaden our perspectives on death. None of us are out there wanting to die, and we are all hot and bothered by the idea of passing away, but at the same time, we need an acceptance of it, a more positive attitude towards nature as a natural process.
Sharon: Do you have to be invited? Can I get a membership card? How does that work?
Paul: No, there’s no membership card. There are no meetings. It’s funny because of the name. It intrigues people. The term “good death” is an old term. It just means to pass well, to pass with grace and to pass in a meaningful and positive way. That’s why she used that term. No, you can’t. You don’t fill out an application online, and there are no membership cards. There are no meetings. It’s a very informal group. It’s Caitlin’s thing. If she feels that someone is doing work that she thinks fits in with her basic objective of broadening our western perspectives of death, she would like that person to join.
Sharon: O.K., so she’s the one I have to talk to. Now, let me ask you this. Maybe I have the order wrong, but it looks like your most recent book was A Cat’s Tale. Is that correct? Do I have that right?
Paul: Yeah, that book came out this past November. That was my last book. I switched from death to writing about cats.
Sharon: Why was that? That’s what I wanted to ask. It’s like, oh my gosh, is that the same person?
Paul: It’s the same person. Underlying all of it, there are some similarities. Cats also have been pushed to the margins of history. That’s a much longer discussion, but when you ask people about feline history or famous cats who are not internet stars, like famous cats from history, they’ll pretty much draw a blank. They’ll tell you, “They were big in ancient Egypt, right?” That’s about all they know. Of course, cats also have a great background in occult lore, so there are some similarities underlying the cat research and the death stuff. It’s just something I wanted to do. I felt that cats, if you read the book—and the book is not technically written by me. The book is technically written by my cat. It says “By Baba the Cat as told to me,” so I’m the transcriber as she reinterprets human history from the cat point of view and puts the cat back into its place. It was just something I wanted to do.
If you or your audience find pictures from that book, they’ll realize something: that it’s also an illustrated book. My cat happens to be a supermodel. I had been messing around with those photo projects for a long time, making costumes for my cat because she’ll wear them; she’ll model and she’s good. I was making a Marie Antoinette costume for her and things like that, and these were amazing pictures. So, it’s like, “Well, I’ve got to do something with these pictures. Is there some way to put them into book form?” I thought at one point about doing a fashion guide for cats by my cat to show these looks, and then I was like, “No, wait a minute. Let’s do a real book, something that will mean something to people.” So, I came up with this idea of a feline history from the perspective of a cat. It’s really an emotional book, because cats have had a rough time. Yes, they were big in ancient Egypt. They were also a persecuted and hated animal at one time, and she pulls no punches. She tells you all the highs and all the lows and brings you up to the modern day and the place that cats hold in our lives. So, yes, that is by me. That was the last book. To be honest, from my perspective, being in collaboration with my cat, it’s actually my favorite.
Sharon: Say that again.
Paul: It’s actually my favorite since it’s a collaboration with my cat. It’s basically a 200-page love letter to my cat.
Sharon: Did she like jewelry? That’s the most important question.
Paul: Well, there’s a lot of jewelry as you’ll see.
Sharon: O.K. What’s your next book then?
Paul: I would really like to write a history of pet cemeteries.
Sharon: Oh, interesting.
Paul: That combines all of it, doesn’t it? Death stuff and the cat’s back into play. A history of pet cemeteries and famous animal memorials and the way we memorialize our animals. Pet cemeteries have a very interesting history. At this point, I probably know more about them than anyone in the world. I’ve photographed more of them than anyone in the world, too. I’ve gone all the way to New Zealand and Australia photographing animal graves. It’s a book I had actually started. I had all the research done, and I was going make that my fourth book. Then the idea for the cat book came along, and it’s like, “I’m going to sell a lot more copies of the cat book than I am a pet cemetery book in the end.” Think about this: if I mixed the order and did the cat book after, it would have a sticker on it that says, “New cat book by the guy who wrote the cemetery book that hardly anybody ever read,” or it can have a sticker on it that says, “A book about the history of pet cemeteries by this guy who wrote this famous cat book.” You know what I mean? I thought it might help to do the cat book first, so that was part of the thinking. Also I just really wanted to do this cat book at the time, because I love working with my cat.
Sharon: It sounds like you have a good partnership. Paul, thank you so much for being with us today. Do you have a favorite place to buy your books? Do you want them to go on Amazon? Does it matter to you, or is it just what people want?
Paul: It doesn’t matter to me. On a human level, I always tell people, “Hey, if you can support a local independent store, that’s great. If you don’t want to, it doesn’t make any difference to me where people buy the books.” If they want to buy any of the books, I’m flattered. Thank you, but it doesn’t make any difference.
Sharon: Thank you so much for being with us today.
Paul: Thank you.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Paul Koudounaris
Paul Koudounaris is an author and photographer based in Los Angeles. He holds a PhD in Art History from the University of California, and he has traveled around the world to document charnel houses, ossuaries, pet cemeteries, and other macabre subjects for both academic and popular journals. His books include The Empire of Death, Memento Mori, and Heavenly Bodies, which features the little-known skeletons taken from the Roman Catacombs in the seventeenth century and decorated with jewels by teams of nuns. His most recent book is A Cat's Tale: A Journey Through Feline History.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Rorschach upper half, chest with skull
Hergiswil stomach full shot
Weyarn head with problem here due to discoloration behind skull due to back lighting through stained glass window
Sonntagsberg felic chest detail
Bad Schussenried head and chest
Peterskirche munditia in shrine three problems, top over curtain over rope and weird candle
Transcript:
Today, covering a skeleton with jewels seems odd or downright morbid. In the 17th century, it was par for the course for the Catholic Church, which covered the skeletons of martyrs with jewels and lavish accessories to highlight the Church’s power. Author and photographer Paul Koudounaris has spent years researching and documenting these little-known historic treasures, which he detailed in his book Heavenly Bodies: Cult Treasures & Spectacular Saints from the Catacombs. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how the skeletons (and human remains generally) were an important part of people’s spiritual lives; why nuns were responsible for decorating the jeweled skeletons; and why the Catholic Church’s efforts to honor martyrs didn’t exactly go as it intended. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Paul Koudounaris, who’s an art historian, photographer and author whose publications in the field of charnel houses and ossuary research have made him a well-known figure in these areas. Today, he’ll tell us about his fascinating work and what it has to do with jewelry. We’ll hear about his unusual jewelry journey today. Paul, welcome to the podcast.
Paul: Hi. I’m delighted to be here, and I’m delighted to talk about this topic from the perspective of jewelry.
Sharon: I was so interested to hear it. Tell us about your journey. Did you get into this field because of your doctoral studies in art? How did you get into it? I don’t know what charnel house means, and I didn’t want to look it up until I heard your definition.
Paul: Well, a charnel house is just a room full of bones. It’s from an old Latin word, “caro,” that meant flesh. It’s a flesh room, or it was literally a bone room. When they’d run out of room in cemeteries, they would put the bones and skulls in a separate room. They didn’t want to discard the bones of their relatives, but they needed room to bury more people. I started out studying that. Of course, that has nothing to do with jewelry, at least not at first, but it does have something to do with a PhD in history.
When I finished the PhD, everyone likes to carve their own niche in life, and I was always interested in the macabre stuff. I was very familiar with the famous charnel houses, giant bone rooms, such as the Paris catacombs, which most people know about as big tourist attractions. As I traveled around Europe and looked in depth, I started to realize how many of these places there were that nobody knew about; that weren’t famous but were spectacular. I started to realize how these places, these great bone rooms that were constructed in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries, had once been a very important part of people’s spiritual lives. We had pushed them into the cracks because we are so uncomfortable with the topic of death, and because the churches that administered them were oftentimes embarrassed to own these rooms full of bones because it just doesn’t play well in the modern world. So, I got started looking at those bone rooms. I wrote called a book called The Empire of Death that was designed to bring their meaning back into play for a modern audience.
Sharon: People must flock around you at cocktail parties. I’m thinking about them being so interested in what you have to say about this. Tell us about how the jewels come into play here.
Paul: I was finishing my book called Pyre of Death. It was literally about the bone rooms and the skeletons, the meaning of their décor and their place in people’s spiritual lives. When I was finishing that book, I found a topic that was even more spectacular, and it had me hooked. Sometimes in Italy, they would take me into these old bone rooms. A lot of times, they were closed off from the public, so I needed permission from the church. Before I would get into the bone rooms, sometimes I would find these old skeletons that had been put into storage that were completely covered in jewels, and this is where the jewelry angle comes in. They were never part of the bone rooms per se; they were the relics of saints, these whole-body skeletons completely covered over in jewels. I started getting into that, understanding what that was. We can talk about it because it has a very profound meaning in terms of religion.
By the time I finished the first book, as it was coming out, I was in London at my publisher’s office. I had taken a picture of some of these skeletons, and I had put them on the commissioning editor’s desk. I pushed him the photos and said, “Here’s the next book,” and he looked at the photos and was like, “Yeah, O.K., that’s the next book. We’ll draw up a contract. What the hell is this?” It’s hard for your listeners to understand what I’m talking about. They might Google it. If they Google my name, Koudounaris—
Sharon: And we will have links to everything and photos on the website when we post this.
Paul: The book is called Heavenly Bodies. If they Google my name and the book, they would see pictures of what I’m talking about. They truly are spectacular. We’re talking about entire human skeletons, head to toe, completely covered in jewels. It was something utterly spectacular that has apparently been blotted out, pushed aside because of our own anxiety dealing with this kind of material in the modern age. That’s how the jewelry angle comes in.
Sharon: How did they decide which skeletons were going to be covered in jewelry?
Paul: The skeletons that were jeweled had nothing to do with the charnel houses themselves. The bone rooms were filled with people from the cemetery. The skeletons were something different. To understand why these were important, I need to talk a little bit about the historical background. I know since this is a jewelry show, people have different levels of awareness of religious history, so pardon me if some of this is a little rudimentary, but it’s very important in understanding this topic.
I think we all know about the Protestant Reformation. Martin Luther, in the 16th century, takes the first breakaway group from the Catholic Church and other groups start to leave. The Catholics, who thought they were inviolable and didn’t think they could really be hurt by these Protestant break-away groups, by the time they take this seriously, they’ve lost about half of Europe and they have to respond. They have to produce something to bring people back in their church. The Protestant groups all had different viewpoints, but one thing the Protestants universally disliked was the Catholic practice of relics, relics being those little bits of bone or a lock of hair or some piece of a holy person that would be on display in a church. “Look, we have St. Peter’s fingernail.” The Protestants didn’t like that kind of stuff. First of all, they thought it was cultish or death-y. More importantly, they thought it was leading people into idolatry, because maybe someone’s praying to a fingerbone rather than praying to God. So, the Protestants go around and destroy the relics. When the Catholics decided to rebuild their church and try to bring people back in, they said, “Well, we need new relics, and they need to be spectacular. We need to show them.” The Catholics understood propaganda, and they understood that people respond to visual symbols more than they respond to abstract ideas. So, they said, “O.K., we’re going to rebuild the churches. We are going to bring in new relics, but relics that are so powerful, like nobody has ever seen before, that are really going to attract people.” And so they needed new relics.
Around this time, they rediscovered the catacombs of Rome, which were early Christian burial sites. They would send people down there to look for early Christian martyrs. Because they gave their lives for God, to the church, early Christian martyrs have a status about equivalent to a saint. They would take these skeletons of these early Christian martyrs from Rome and send them to northern Europe to the battleground areas where they thought they could win people back from the Protestants. Mostly that was in Germany, Switzerland and Austria. Then they would cover them over completely in jewels, and they would put them on display in these newly re-founded churches as a citadel for people to say, “Look, this is the glory. This glory you see in earthly terms, a skeleton covered over in jewels, this is a reflection of the heavenly glory, the heavenly Jerusalem, that God promises to people who are true to the faith, who will fight for the faith, who fight to reestablish the truth faith, the Catholic Church, in the face of its adversaries, much like these martyred people once fought to found the faith against heathens and pagans of the world.”
Sharon: When they went back to find these early martyrs, did they have an X on them? How did they know? They just said, “This was a martyr”?
Paul: That’s the big problem. The Roman catacombs are famous for Christian burials, but other Romans were buried there too. You could do either of them; you could cremate or you could bury, your choice, and the Jews put their people in the catacombs, too. So, how do you go down into these 1,400, 1,500-year-old tunnels and figure out who in there is a Christian versus a Roman or a Jew, and who has actually been martyred? Of course, it’s very difficult.
Again, as I said, the Catholics really understood propaganda. These people they were sending north, were they really Christian martyrs? They didn’t intend it as a total fraud. They looked for certain symbols. If there was a letter M on a gravestone, they thought, “O.K., well, if there’s a letter M, it might mean martyr.” Then again, the gravestones were often broken, so they might see an M, but it might have been part of a larger word. Maybe it was the word Mars; maybe it was someone who had dedicated their lives in the service of the god Mars. You really didn’t know, so a lot of it was guesswork.
One of the things the Christians looked for were little vials that had been filled with blood. If there was a vial near the grave that had been filled with blood—or then, it had turned to a brown or a reddish dust—they decided, “That must be a martyr because there’s a little vial that had been filled with blood. It must be that person’s blood that was spilled at his martyrdom. This is definitely a martyr; take him out and send him north.” What they didn’t know is the Romans also had a funerary practice that is basically the backstory for us putting flowers on a grave. The Romans would sometimes put vials of perfume near a grave, and perfume over time can also turn into this brownish power.
So, you’re asking how they knew. They really didn’t. A lot these people who were reborn as Christian saints may have been Roman fisherman, for all we know, and people would have been primed to venerate a fisherman. It’s a wild story historically. They would pull these skeletons out and rebaptize them. They’d call it batizati because they didn’t necessarily know who they were. The catacombs had been ransacked and they were not in good condition, so they’d pull these skeletons out and have a baptism. They’d rebaptize them and give them a name because they didn’t know who they were. A lot of these skeletons would have names like Felix. Tons of skeletons who were named Felix who were sent forth from these catacombs. Why Felix? Names like Felix or Clemente, names like that. Why? Because they sound like proper names, but they’re also the names of virtues. Felix is the base word for felicity meaning happiness. When they call a guy Felix and send him out, they’re saying, “We’re not really saying he’s a saint by the name of Felix or a martyr by the name of Felix; we’re saying he is the epitome of Christian happiness because he died for God.”
Now, as I said, this was a propaganda war that these jeweled skeletons were involved in, so when they get to Germany, people didn’t question, “Yeah, we have St. Felix here.” One of the most common skeletons to be sent out of the catacombs was St. Valentine. Why St. Valentine? The real St. Valentine has always been interred in Italy, but to make sure they were well received—because, again, this was propaganda to re-found the church. There is no Google to stop people from saying, “Oh, St. Valentine has just arrived in our town. Blessed be, we are graced by the God of love.” There’s no Google to say, “Wait a minute, this is horrible. Valentine’s interred in Italy.” They’re just going to accept it for what it is. You asked a good question: how did they know? They really didn’t, but these were tools to re-found a church. They were really jewels of war. These jeweled skeletons were tools of war in the battle against Protestantism.
Sharon: You said you stumbled on this, but how come people didn’t know these were here?
Paul: They did a little bit. It would be unfair to say no one knew. They were still around. I think most of them—it’s another question you can asked: what happened to the bulk of them? A lot of them were destroyed, and a lot of them were destroyed for certain reasons. When they fell out of favor, people would rob the jewels from them and throw the skeletons away. I would say most of them, maybe two-thirds of them, have been destroyed, but a lot of them were still around; they were just only known by theologians or people who were really plugged into Catholic history in those places. When I was working in Germany photographing these, I was staying at a friend’s house in Stuttgart. Every day I would come back to her house, and she would sit me down at the table and say, “O.K., show me what other crazy things you found in my country that we don’t know about.” The bulk of Germans didn’t even know these skeletons were there, even though they had been a big part of spiritual life.
There were several problems with those skeletons. First of all, I’ve already told you that a lot of them couldn’t be brought. When the Enlightenment came, they decided, “We need to get a lot of the superstition out of religion.” There were actual doctrines passed in Sumer that said, “O.K., we can’t have relics on display without a proven provenance, because we don’t want people praying in front of a Roman fisherman’s bone.” A lot of them were put into storage for that reason. A lot of them were simply removed by the churches and taken away because they didn’t want the modern church to be associated with a skeleton covered in jewels. It’s not a good look for the modern world. We have an incredible anxiety over death, plus the church gets accused of being a death cult, and what better proof would you have of a death cult than walking into a church and seeing a jeweled skeleton?
A lot of them got pushed away in one very strange incident. There were some skeletons they felt bad about removing because it was such an important part of local history. They said, “Well, we want him out of our church. We don’t want this look anymore. We don’t want a jeweled skeleton in our church, but we don’t want to throw him away because he’s a part of local history and local lore.” So, they cut a hole in the wall. They shoved it in the wall and plastered the wall over, so he’s still technically in the church; he’s just literally inside the wall trapped in plaster. So, they got rid of them.
It’s funny; times change, tastes change. For me, in writing this book, of course I had to get into the theological history, but it was more of an appreciation or reinterpreting them and saying, “O.K., these may have been failed religious items, and they may not have been the skeletons of the people they thought. They may not have been the Christian martyrs, but we can still appreciate them in the modern world as incredible works of art, the finest works of art in human bone that have ever been seen, and incredible works of jeweler’s art to cover them like that and make them so splendid. Let’s appreciate them in those respects.” A lot of people do love the photos, not for the death aspect or the theological aspect, but for the artistic aspect.
Times do change. There’s one in a church in Switzerland. There was a variance to bejeweling them. Sometimes they would put them in suits of armor. If they thought it had been a military martyr, they’d put them in a suit of armor. This one has always been on display and they’ve never removed it. It’s still there in the modern church. I talked to the priest about it at the church in Switzerland; its name is St. Croesus. I was like, “Do you ever get any guff at the church for having this skeleton in armor there?” He was like, “It actually does us some good because the heavy metal kids think it’s really cool to come to church because there’s a skeleton in armor.” Times have changed.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. When you look at the photos in your book, Heavenly Bodies, it’s just amazing the jewels and how they decorated them. Talk about works of jewelers’ art, or any kind of art.
Paul: I think one very important aspect of this is the people who did the work. That is another forgotten chapter in history along with the skeletons. People are often surprised when I tell them these skeletons were mostly decorated by nuns. They weren’t decorated by professional jewelers, and they weren’t decorated by big-name artists. They were decorated by teams of nuns. People are sometimes surprised when I say that, but we have to understand life in a convent at that time. Remember, a convent had to have an economy. It had to support itself, and all the money didn’t necessarily from donations. Nuns were very skilled in certain trades, what were then sometimes called women’s arts. They didn’t get the same respect as sculpture and painting, the kind of arts that have been traditionally patriarchal, but these nuns were skilled in what were called women’s arts, things like textile making, jewelry work, beadwork, wirework.
Some of these nuns were probably the Michelangelo or Leonardo of working with jewelry at time; it’s just that we don’t know them because our history has always been a patriarchal view. Their names are signed to these skeletons, and they do incredible work. They would send skeletons undecorated up to Europe. The church would get them, and they would turn them over to teams of local nuns. The nuns might take years decorating them, a very costly process, a very time-consuming process, but nuns have the right religious temperament to deal with such an object, They can do it, they have a love for it, and very importantly, nuns had the technical and artistic skill to do this kind of jewelry work, to do this kind of textural work and to do it beautifully. That’s another really important of the story. It shows the incredible, high level of skill of these female artists that had been living in these convents to do this kind of work.
Sharon: Also too, I assume that one would think they’re trustworthy and not be afraid that the jewels were going to disappear.
Paul: Oh, sure! Like I said, the nuns had the perfect temperament to deal with the sacred object, and the nuns obviously were not going to steal anything.
Sharon: Why were these jeweled skeletons in on display? Did people parade past them in the church? How did that work? Well, I guess they were underneath in the charnel house.
Paul: They were on display in the church. They were never stored in the charnel houses. That only came later when they removed them. They would set them into altars in big glass cases. It’s the reason that so many of them are posed. A lot of them are posed in a resting pose, full body laid out, almost like they’re waking from a sleep. The reason for that is the best place to put them was in the predella of an altar, right underneath the altar table. Of course, that’s a long, thin area. They would usually put them in there, so that explains why so many of them are in that resting pose.
People would see them every time they walked into the church, but you asked about parades. When they were drilling them into the panel, the technical term for moving a relic is a translation. When they would translate the relics into town and bring them in the church, it was a religious holiday for the town. They would parade them in front of the entire town. Everybody would come out to meet their new patron saint. It was a very big event. Canons would shoot off, and there would be a military parade and an escort for them, and they’d set them into the church with much hoopla. These were very revered objects at the time, and many of the local churches would have special feast days in appreciation of the new saint that had come to them, this new, jeweled skeleton.
For instance, in one instance in Germany, a town did have a skeleton they called St. Valentine, so of course they all took him to be the god of love. So, every year on Valentine’s Feast Day, myriad couples and boyfriends and girlfriends would come and march and stand in front of this skeleton who, like I said, for all we know, might have been a Roman fisherman. But they’d stand in front of the skeleton they were calling St. Valentine, and they would renew their vows and renew their love for one another in front of the skeleton. The town had even commissioned an orchestral piece that would be played every year when people would stand in front of the skeleton and speak their vows. So yes, they were very much on public display and they were very much a big deal.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kimberly Klosterman
A graduate of Stephens College with a BFA in design, Kimberly Klosterman was always interested in art, antiques and design. After graduation she studied Decorative Arts at Sotheby’s London, where she was exposed to the world of antique jewelry. Upon return to Cincinnati, she and her Husband, Michael Lowe, opened their first gallery selling art and antiques. At this time, she also began her search for fine jewelry. To make ends meet for the new business, Klosterman went to work in the family company, Klosterman Baking Company, in 1982 where she currently moonlights as C.E.O.
Her jewelry business, established after another Sotheby’s course, Understanding Jewelry, was opened in 1996. Her love of 1960s and 70s jewelry developed through the tutelage of Amanda Triossi, whose own collection thrilled Klosterman. After living in Amsterdam and London, she returned to Cincinnati where she continues to collect fine jewelry.
Klosterman has given gallery talks at the Cincinnati Art Museum, the Taft Museum, the American Society of Jewelry Historians, and the American Society of Jewelry Appraisers, NYC Jewelry Week, Christies Auction, Bonhams Auction, etc.
The current exhibition “Simply Brilliant: Artist-Jewelers of the 1960s and 1970s,” organized by Cynthia Amnéus, Chief Curator and Curator of Fashion at the Cincinnati Art Museum, is a result of Klosterman’s passion for collecting. Her goal, to help preserve the legacy of these bold men and women who were jewelers to the jet-set. The exhibition, which opened at DIVA in Antwerp, Belgum and traveled to the Schmuckmuseum in Pforzhiem, Germany, will be on view in Cincinnati Oct 22- Feb 6. A catalog complete with biographies and makers’ marks accompanies the exhibition.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
This is the cover of the book, which is also the catalog and a listing of where the exhibit has been.
Roger Lucas for Cartier astronaut ring
Romolo Grassi Gold and emerald pendant.
Gilbert Albert ammonite and pearl Bracelet Brooch
Cedars Devecchi carved coral and gold brooch.
Arthur king Brooch Collection of Andy Warhol and Kim Klosterman
Andrew Grima amethyst ring.
Andrew Grima agate and tourmaline necklace.
Transcript:
What makes a passionate collector? For Kimberly Klosterman, it’s someone who can’t get enough of the objects they love, no matter what they are. She herself became a passionate collector of 1960s and 70s jewelry long before it became popular. Her collection is now being featured in a traveling exhibition, “Simply Brilliant: Artist-Jewelers of the 1960s and 1970s.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the qualities that draw her to 60s and 70s jewelry; why the unique jewelry of this period has come back in style; and what aspiring collectors should do to create a thoughtful collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Could you collect a production piece in your collection?
Kimberly: I do have some production pieces in my collection, for example pieces by Elsa Peretti; I happen to like Elsa Peretti very much. I think she’s a great designer, but again, she settled on jewelry as being her first and foremost love. Even though they’re production pieces, in my opinion, she’s an artist jeweler because she’s designing that way. Other production pieces that I have—during the late 60s and early 70s, Cartier made some production pieces that were pretty wonderful. There was another person, Aldo Cipullo, who designed the love bracelet and a number of other things that Cartier started selling. I think of him as an artist jeweler as well.
Sharon: Is a piece that you want for your collection high-end or limited like Peretti? She’s not what I consider a production jeweler. I’m sure some of her work she signed and numbered, but I wouldn’t consider it production. You used TJ Maxx before; if you walked into TJ Maxx and saw a piece and you thought, “Oh my god, this is incredible,” would you maybe not wear it but consider buying it?
Kimberly: I love all kind of things, but for my collection, no. They’re signed pieces. That’s something, too, that I always looked for in forming my collection. I would see things that I thought were interesting and I would buy them. It didn’t always have to be signed, but nine out of 10 times, if the piece was signed, even if I didn’t know the name of the maker at all, I would buy it if I liked the piece because then I could do the research later. A lot of the material I have in my collection came to me that way, by buying unknown people and later finding out who they were and why they were important to this group of people in this time period.
Sharon: If somebody wants to start a collection, if you’ve ignited somebody’s interest in this, where would you say they start? I don’t necessarily believe that things always have to be signed. I have some very nice things that aren’t signed, but where would you suggest they start? Are there certain designers?
Kimberly: First of all, just getting out and seeing what’s available is very helpful. Go to the big shows. If you can, go to Miami, or there’s a show coming up in New York. Go to interesting places, because you can see a lot of jewelry and start thinking about what you might like. Look at books, look at auction catalogues; auctions are also a great place to look. Then settle on something that sings to you and go down that path. I think people have accumulations of things, which is really a shame. I find that people want what their friends have. They buy this and this, things that are hot, like Van Cleef and Arpels Zodiac pendants, which are fine; they’re wonderful and they’re really cool, but you start ticking off things. I want an Alhambra necklace; I want a Van Cleef Zodiac signed. To me, that’s wonderful jewelry. It’s great to wear all the time, and it is a collection. Believe me, the stuff will become and is more valuable than many of the one-of-a-kind pieces I like. You know what? Scratch all that stuff. That’s not good to say.
Sharon: It is a collection if you’re talking about the Zodiac piece and Alhambra.
Kimberly: It’s a collection and it’s fine to have. I guess sometimes I get bummed out because I feel so passionate about these wonderful, one-of-a-kind pieces, and I find that a lot of times, people can’t wrap their minds around it because it’s something they don’t understand or haven’t seen much of.
Sharon: Also, you might not be doing as much dealing now, but you look at things in terms of whether it’s going to appreciate. I buy things knowing sometimes they will appreciate. I have a friend who buys only with the idea of selling it. I don’t do that.
Kimberly: No, I definitely don’t either. I just buy my passion and what appeals to me.
Sharon: I don’t know if I would have had the fortitude; you must have had to buckle up. Why you started out in this genre of jewelry, you must have had to buck a lot of people saying, “Oh my god, what do you see in that?”
Kimberly: Well, dealers didn’t say that because they were just happy to get rid of it. I had a number of people showing me things that weren’t right at all, and I’d still get that. This is my view, and it’s like, “No, that doesn’t look like it at all.” I just love this path, and I think you do too, of having jewelry that celebrates your individualism.
Sharon: Similar to you, I love it when I find a piece that’s one of a kind, even though nobody ever heard of the person. They’re never going to become a Cartier, but I like the fact that it’s really different. I’m curious about the exhibit, which I’m looking forward to seeing at some point in Cincinnati. Tell us about how it came about. Was that your brainchild?
Kimberly: Yeah, it was interesting. In 2012, I had given a lecture for the American Society of Jewelry Historians in Manhattan, and in the audience was the curator of jewelry for the Cooper Hewitt, Sarah Coffin. Sarah came up to me after the lecture and said, “All this stuff is amazing. I think we should do an exhibition,” and I said, “Oh, that’s a cool idea. I like that idea.” For one reason or another, we could never get it together.
In 2015, I started thinking, “I’m going to propose this to someone else,” and I started thinking about what museum might make sense and who might like the idea. I went to the Cincinnati Art Museum and heard Cynthia Amnéus speak, and I was very impressed by the talk she gave. I remember that it was on modernism, a subject I know pretty well, and she had to get the lecture together overnight. I thought, “Wow, if she can do that overnight, she knows her stuff.” So, I went to Cynthia and said, “I have this collection of jewelry, and I’d like to talk to you about it.” She took my PowerPoint presentation and she really liked it. I thought this would make perfect sense because she’s Curator of Fashion for the Cincinnati Art Museum, and it’s literally in my own backyard. I know the material really well and I knew that a lot of people didn’t understand it, so I knew I was going to have to be hands on with the exhibition. This gave me the opportunity to do that, and it was really exciting.
After the show was accepted, we decided to travel it. It was an honor that DIVA picked up the show. They did a great exhibition. Sadly, I didn’t get to see it because of Covid. Following that, it went to the Schmuckmuseum of Pforzheim, Germany. Cornelie Holzach knew all about this kind of material, which I was very excited about. I had met with her and asked if they would be interested. She knew almost everyone in the exhibition, and she had great stories about them. I showed her a watch I had and she said, “I think that’s this artist,” and she went back and showed me where the source came from and some of their early catalogues. It was a real honor to be in both of those museums. I’m looking forward to the show in Cincinnati.
Sharon: How long is it on for? Until next year, at least?
Kimberly: Yes, it runs October 21 through February 6.
Sharon: I certainly hope I get there. Cincinnati from Los Angeles is at least a little bit closer than New York. The other thing I’m curious about is what attracted you to this kind of jewelry first and what holds your attention.
Kimberly: For me, it’s the naturalistic quality of the jewelry. There’s a lot of texture and warmth in most of the jewelry I collect, and I love the idea of using odd materials. The necklace I have on today by Arthur King has an amber piece with a petrified mosquito in it, and I just love that. The Gilbert Albert pieces that are in the catalogue with the fossilized ammonites, I think those are very interesting. I have some jewelry also by Gilbert Albert with beetles in them. I find all this natural material something special, and the natural crystals and uncut stones.
Sharon: Did it give birth to what we see today?
Kimberly: I really believe so. I haven’t talked to any young designers as to what their inspiration is, but one would think. All you have to do is look at the catalogue and page through it to see how this jewelry could have influenced young designers. Jacobs, for example, is a huge fan of Andrew Grima. So was the fashion world, I think.
Sharon: You could take any piece from the catalogue and put it in Nieman Marcus today. It wouldn’t look like a dated piece or anything; it would look like a fashion piece or a current piece. It’s a beautiful book, and I encourage anybody who has an interest in this to get their hands on it and take a look. Did you think about the book on its own aside from the exhibit, or did the book only come about because you knew you were doing an exhibit?
Kimberly: The book came about because of the exhibit, but I did feel very strongly that the two should go hand in hand. I think, especially for jewelry, that’s a wonderful thing to happen, because you’re able to see the pieces in the flesh rather than just see them in a book. I do like having the record of the book. One thing we did, and this is where the dealer and the collector part of me comes in, is that the book is mainly buyers of these different artist jewelers who were fascinated themselves. Many of them sold to the jet set; it was that time and period and craziness. There are buyers of the artist jewelers, and in the back we have makers’ marks of all the jewelers that are in the exhibition. That comes in handy, especially for some of the more cryptic makers’ marks that people can’t figure out so well.
Sharon: It’s fabulous to see that. It’s a great resource. I know you have a background—is it in art history?
Kimberly: Design primarily, but my husband I have had a gallery for as long as I can remember, and we’ve been together about 40 years. My husband sells, but mainly he’s like I am. We’re both hopeless collectors. It’s mostly minimal and conceptual art.
Sharon: Wow! Do you enjoy the research part because it’s researching jewelry and art, or do you like research in general?
Kimberly: I love research. I love research in general I suppose, but anything I’m passionate about. The only other thing I like to do is eat.
Sharon: I can join you in that. Are there certain characteristics that a new collector should look at in terms of signatures or one-of-a-kind or limited edition? You’re driven by what you like and you’re suggesting that new collector would be driven by what they like. O.K., but are there certain things—everything you’re pointing out has what I call tentacles. You called them something else before. What are the characteristics here?
Kimberly: Again for me, I think it goes back to the naturalism of all the material. I have to say I’ve always described my jewelry as painterly, meaning it’s textural, it has some kind of artistic quality to it. If I had to give advice to a budding collector, like I said, it would be try to see as much as you can, read as much as you can, and if you don’t read, that’s O.K.; look at the pictures. Look at jewelry catalogues and jewelry books and jewelry publications. Everybody will hit on something. It’s like you said earlier; you’ve got how many black shirts in your closet? I’m with you on that account, too. I think we will walk down our path of what our own taste is. It’s just discovering what the level of taste is and then going with it.
Sharon: Years ago, I was trying to decide what I should keep, what I should look at passing on or selling, and someone who sold art said to me, “Buy what you love.” I talked to other collectors in other areas where I tend to be—if it’s in TJ Maxx, I may not buy it, just to be truthful about it. Are you a believer in the buy what you love, or are you looking for certain things?
Kimberly: Oh, absolutely. You have to buy what you love. The things is, you have to learn what you love, and you only do that by exposing yourself to what’s out there, or else you don’t know what you love. It’s just like a kid; they won’t eat certain things because they haven’t tried them. Then they try them and they like them. You need to know what’s out there and what’s available so you can form an educated opinion. After all, like Christopher Dresser said, “Knowledge is power.” I think that’s an important statement.
Sharon: I want to say it’s amazing—that’s not really the word I want, but the fact that you’ve collected this for so many decades now, several decades, and it’s still what you love. I don’t know what I want to say, but there are things I’ve liked; there are trends, but the fact that you have been so passionate about it for so long—
Kimberly: It’s interesting, because I am very passionate about it still and I don’t see that waning at all, but that said, I love ancient jewelry. I love antique jewelry. I love jewelry by artists. There are many, many different kinds of jewelry that I absolutely adore as well. I just don’t go down that path as much because I find that I know more about this now. It’s like a friend of mine said, “Stick to your knitting.” I try to do that. However, with the ancient jewelry and ethnic jewelry, it informs the stuff I collect anyway. It’s not uncommon for me to wear a pre-Columbian pendant. What else do I have that I like to wear a lot? I have a lot of jewelry by a woman named Patti Cadby Birch who took ancient materials and reconfigured them in the 70s, so the materials are ancient, but they’re a little more wearable. I love that as well.
Sharon: Have you thought about what your next exhibition is going to be?
Kimberly: I’m going to say, because I don’t know if it’ll be an exhibition or not, but I’m really fond of the work by Arthur King. I think he’s an interesting American jeweler and an important American jeweler from the 60s. There are lots of people out there that have his jewelry. In my dream world, if I have time to do it, I’d like to do an exhibition of Arthur King, not just with the jewelry I have. Anybody listening, if you’re an Arthur King collector, I would really like to do a museum exhibition of his work. I would do that myself.
Sharon: That would be fabulous. I don’t know his work. When you say there are a lot of people out there who collect him, I’m sure there are. I don’t see a lot of it. When I go to shows, I don’t see it or I don’t know it. It’s not being called out, like when they have a little tag saying, “This is a Cartier.” There are lots of jewelers besides Cartier, but I’m just saying. That would be fabulous. I didn’t even know he was American.
Kimberly: Oh, yeah. He had a couple of stores in Manhattan and, like I said, in Florida as well, so lot of his jewelry ended up in those pockets of the world. A lot of people knew him, and there are some great stories about him. I have been in touch with people that were close to him, and right now I’m trying to get their stories just in case this comes to fruition.
Sharon: That would be a fabulous next step. I’m sure you’re just going to sit down and be, like my husband would say, “eating bonbons” after this. Anyway, Kimberly, thank you so much for being here. The exhibit sounds wonderful. Who better to put it together and drive it than you, with your passion and knowledge? We are all looking forward to it. It starts October 21 at the Cincinnati Art Museum, which I understand is a fabulous museum. I look forward to getting there, and I hope everybody listening to this can make it also. Thank you so much.
Kimberly: Thank you so much, Sharon. I hope to see you in Cincinnati.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kimberly Klosterman
A graduate of Stephens College with a BFA in design, Kimberly Klosterman was always interested in art, antiques and design. After graduation she studied Decorative Arts at Sotheby’s London, where she was exposed to the world of antique jewelry. Upon return to Cincinnati, she and her Husband, Michael Lowe, opened their first gallery selling art and antiques. At this time, she also began her search for fine jewelry. To make ends meet for the new business, Klosterman went to work in the family company, Klosterman Baking Company, in 1982 where she currently moonlights as C.E.O.
Her jewelry business, established after another Sotheby’s course, Understanding Jewelry, was opened in 1996. Her love of 1960s and 70s jewelry developed through the tutelage of Amanda Triossi, whose own collection thrilled Klosterman. After living in Amsterdam and London, she returned to Cincinnati where she continues to collect fine jewelry.
Klosterman has given gallery talks at the Cincinnati Art Museum, the Taft Museum, the American Society of Jewelry Historians, and the American Society of Jewelry Appraisers, NYC Jewelry Week, Christies Auction, Bonhams Auction, etc.
The current exhibition “Simply Brilliant: Artist-Jewelers of the 1960s and 1970s,” organized by Cynthia Amnéus, Chief Curator and Curator of Fashion at the Cincinnati Art Museum, is a result of Klosterman’s passion for collecting. Her goal, to help preserve the legacy of these bold men and women who were jewelers to the jet-set. The exhibition, which opened at DIVA in Antwerp, Belgum and traveled to the Schmuckmuseum in Pforzhiem, Germany, will be on view in Cincinnati Oct 22- Feb 6. A catalog complete with biographies and makers’ marks accompanies the exhibition.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
This is the cover of the book, which is also the catalog and a listing of where the exhibit has been.
Roger Lucas for Cartier astronaut ring
Romolo Grassi Gold and emerald pendant.
Gilbert Albert ammonite and pearl Bracelet Brooch
Cedars Devecchi carved coral and gold brooch.
Arthur king Brooch Collection of Andy Warhol and Kim Klosterman
Andrew Grima amethyst ring.
Andrew Grima agate and tourmaline necklace.
Transcript:
What makes a passionate collector? For Kimberly Klosterman, it’s someone who can’t get enough of the objects they love, no matter what they are. She herself became a passionate collector of 1960s and 70s jewelry long before it became popular. Her collection is now being featured in a traveling exhibition, “Simply Brilliant: Artist-Jewelers of the 1960s and 1970s.” She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the qualities that draw her to 60s and 70s jewelry; why the unique jewelry of this period has come back in style; and what aspiring collectors should do to create a thoughtful collection. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Today, my guest is Kimberly Klosterman of Kimberly Klosterman Jewelry. While she’s dealt in jewelry across a number of periods, she’s recognized for her collection of designer jewels from the 60s and 70s. Her collection is currently being featured in the museum exhibit “Simply Brilliant,” scheduled to open at the Cincinnati Art Museum on October 21. The show has already been at DIVA, which is the new diamond museum in Antwerp, as well as at Pforzheim in Germany. We’ll hear all about Kimberly’s jewelry journey today as well as about the museum exhibit. Kimberly, welcome to the program.
Kimberly: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here, Sharon.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. I was looking at this beautiful catalogue, “Simply Brilliant.” It’s a standalone book, but it’s a catalogue of the show. I’m reading the review that Ruth Peltason, I think, did with you. You’ve really had such a journey if you’d tell us about that.
Kimberly: I’ve been interested in jewelry for a long time and started collecting Art Deco things and different kinds of jewelry earlier on. I decided if I’m going to do this, I’d better learn a little more about what I’m getting myself into. So in 1996, I went to London and found out there was a course called “Understanding Jewelry” at Sotheby’s. I thought, “This might be a great thing for me to do. I’ve been a Sotheby’s student before, and I learned a lot the first time around.” This was a course that lasted five or six weeks and Amanda Triosi was teaching it. So, my husband and I went to London and I took the course. It was great. It was the history of jewelry. It was a lot of fun. I do have an art background, so it was easy to pick up on the jewelry she was talking about. We had great speakers, but one thing that stood out for me was that I was exposed to the artists’ jewelry of the 1960s and 1970s, and that happened in two ways.
One of our projects for extra points was to go see a show at Hancocks in London, and that was an Andrew Grima retrospective. I went to the show, and I was completely bowled over. I was almost shaking when I saw the jewelry there. I walked in, looked at it, and the man behind the counter was very tall and dapper, a really elegant man, and he looked at me and saw my enthusiasm and said, “Would you like to meet the artist?” I said, “Oh yes, that would be fantastic,” and he extended his hand. It was Andrew Grima. That was my first exposure to that kind of jewelry. Up until then, if you think about what was happening the mid-90s, everybody was into white gold and small jewelry and little, tiny things. Here were pieces that were big and bold and gold, and all kinds of materials were used instead of precious and semiprecious stones. It was a real eye-opener.
The other thing is Amanda, who has become a very close friend, at the time when I was her student, she took some of us back to her little apartment in London and said, “Would you like to see my jewels?” I said, “Oh sure, that would be great.” So, she reached behind the radiator and pulled out these hot jewels, and they were incredible. She had a necklace by Gilbert Albert and Andrew Grima pieces and a host of things I had never laid my eyes on. The other few students that were with us didn’t get it at all. I immediately responded to it, and I knew that was a path I wanted to carve out for myself.
At the time, I was taking a bit of a break from my family business, which is Klosterman Baking Company. My husband and I were in Europe, and I didn’t know what I was going to do. I woke up one morning and said, “I know; I’m going to sell jewelry.” I took the previous stuff I had collected, which actually turned out to be a lot better than I thought, and started selling that, but with an eye to look for these other jewels. I think one thing that was so amazing to me is how difficult it was to source that material from the 60s and 70s. I didn’t realize until some years later that the reason was because it simply wasn’t out of the jewelry boxes yet. It hadn’t come into the marketplace, and if it did, it was probably scrapped pretty quickly, as they were heavy pieces of gold. So I went on this quest, but it took quite a while to build a collection. If you are thinking about this jewelry in today’s marketplace, say for the past four or five years, it’s everywhere, but it was very difficult to source in the beginning. I made a little booklet on my iMac that I used to take to shows on the jewelry I was collecting. This was before we had cellphones. I would take it around with me to shows and show various dealers, “If you get anything like this, call me. Here’s my card.” That’s how I started collecting.
Sharon: Did you get a response from dealers? Did they say, “Oh, I’ve had that in my drawer for ages”?
Kimberly: I did have a funny thing happen one time in Miami. I was wearing a piece of jewelry by Arthur King, and I really like King’s work. He’s an American jeweler that started working in the late 40s. He started out as a studio jeweler making his own jewelry in Greenwich Village, right on the same street as Sam Kramer and—
Sharon: Art Smith?
Kimberly: Art Smith, yes. He was right in that group. I think he went to Florida right after that and eventually started working in gold. He started hiring other bench jewelers to help him as well. He had a place in Cuba. He had a couple of different stores in Florida, and he was also showing at Fortnum & Mason in London. He’s a very interesting jeweler to me, but anyway, back to the Miami Beach, Florida Antique Show. I was wearing an Arthur King piece, and one of the dealers looked at me and said, “Do you like that stuff?” and I said, “Yeah, I do.” She said, “I have these things in my safe.” It ended up being a number of pieces that came directly from Louise King, Arthur’s wife, and she had them on consignment. I bought those pieces and started my friendship with that dealer, who down the road would show me things like that when she got them.
Sharon: I’m sure people were surprised because that stuff was so out of fashion when you started collecting it.
Kimberly: It really was. The other dealer stories are a total crackup. I say my best pieces came out of people’s big and ugly boxes. You would go to the show, and they’d have this box, big and ugly.
Sharon: Today it’s not white gold, but it’s still tiny, little pieces. I call it Brentwood jewelry. That’s an affluent area near here. I’m knocking somebody’s jewelry, not any particular designer, but I don’t understand; it doesn’t show up. Why are you wearing it? That’s all.
Kimberly: I’ve always said it’s funny about jewelry. I learned a long time ago that people that wear big jewelry don’t necessarily have to be big people. A lot of times different jewelers would say, “Oh well, you need a big woman for that,” and I said, “No, you need a big personality.” Some of the people I know that wear the biggest jewelry happen be to the tiniest people.
Sharon: That’s true with art jewelry being made out of plastic or wood. It’s big, but it may be a little more out there, avant garde. I remember at a gallery, there was a small, very elegant woman telling me how she would have to convince her clients they could wear this stuff. They didn’t have to be big women, like you’re saying. You mentioned Graham Hughes. Tell us who this is and how he influenced your collecting or your path.
Kimberly: Graham Hughes was in the late 50s at Goldsmiths’ Hall. His father had been at Goldsmiths’ Hall and Graham followed in his father’s footsteps. This is in London. Graham was initially involved with the silver department there, but he had a real love of jewelry and decided this would be a good avenue for Goldsmiths’ Hall to go down to start a collection of jewelry. He was very passionate about it and has written a number of books on the history of jewelry. I always liked his take on things. We just seemed to have the same taste. Even in his historic collection of jewels that he chose to picture in his books, they were always the best; they’re just great. He was a bit of a character, from what I understand.
I never did get to meet him, but he got together with some people at the V&A. They started talking in the late 50s about putting an exhibition of jewelry together, and they didn’t want to do just any jewelry. They thought jewelry was boring, staid; “What can we do to shake it up?” This little group initially said, “I know. We’ll get artists to make jewelry. We’ll commission artists to make jewelry and we’ll have this exhibition.” They talked about that, and the more they talked about it—it was actually Graham, I believe, that said, “No, we can’t do that, because artists don’t always understand how jewelry hangs on the body or how it attaches to clothing because they’re artists; they’re not jewelers.” He said, “We need to reach out to people that are jewelers making amazing jewelry already, people making one-of-a-kind pieces of jewelry that are thinking outside the box.”
There were a couple of different reasons; I don’t know exactly what they were. Health was one issue. One of the people had a health issue, and something else happened at the V&A where they were going to cancel the show. Instead, Graham proposed that they have the show at Goldsmiths’ Hall, and everything came together. They started reaching out to people all over the world for this proposed show. I can’t remember how many countries; maybe 80 countries, something like that. Just under a thousand pieces, 900 and some odd pieces were exhibited in the show when it happened in 1961. It was also a historic show because it showed works by René Lalique, Chaumet, some other big houses. It was kind of a survey in that area, but the idea was modern jewelry, 1890-1961.
Sharon: I want to make sure everybody knows that the V&A is the Victoria and Albert Museum.
Kimberly: Anyway, this put a lot of people in the limelight. People like Arthur King exhibited from America in that show; Andrew Grima exhibited; just a whole host of people. Those people helped inform my collection. The catalogue he wrote that accompanied the exhibition as well as the book that followed it became the Bible for my collection, my wish book.
Sharon: I want to ask you something else, a small detail. Amanda Triosi’s class, was that every day for five or six weeks or once or twice a week? Because if it was every day, wow!
Kimberly: It was five days, and it was great. We had the best speakers and great field trips. It was really wonderful.
Sharon: Wow! I’m ready. Sign me up. That sounds wonderful. I’m curious if today you go to some social event and wear your jewelry, do people understand it more than they did 10, 15 years ago?
Kimberly: I think so, absolutely! If you look in today’s marketplace, heck, go to TJ Maxx and look in the case. So much jewelry is influenced by what was happening in the 60s and 70s, whether these contemporary jewelers know it or not. It has definitely come back around. Uncut stones, rough diamonds, textured gold, bigger, bolder items; all of these things have come back into the marketplace, and yellow gold again as opposed to white gold.
Sharon: Was there a time, maybe 20, 25 years ago, when friends, people at social events, would say, “What is that?” Was there no understanding or appreciation?
Kimberly: I think overall people do appreciate it more than they did. To my face they didn’t tell me they didn’t get it, but it’s been interesting working with different people on the exhibition that maybe weren’t exposed to this kind of jewelry before, even possibly the curator at the art museum, Cynthia Amnéus, who wrote the book, or Ruth Peltason, who’s also writing a book on 1960s and 1970s jewelry and did the interview with me in our book. I have educated them to the point where they really like the jewelry now.
Sharon: It definitely grows on you.
Kimberly: It does, and I think that’s true with anything. People tend to like what they know, not know what they like.
Sharon: That’s interesting. That could lead into a whole different discussion. Did somebody have to teach us to love Art Deco jewelry, or is that just something that is beautiful?
Kimberly: You know what? I think it’s just beautiful. I remember declaring, after I graduated from my “Understanding Jewelry” course at Sotheby’s, that I knew what I was going to sell: Cartier Art Deco, because it’s the best. Well yeah, everybody else thought so, too. So, I carved out a niche for myself that was remotely different.
Sharon: It must have been easier to source at least, Cartier Art Deco. A lot pricier I would think, but easier to source.
Kimberly: Easier to source, but out of reach for me at the time.
Sharon: In some of the literature I was reading about you, it says you sell to the passionate collector. What is the passionate collector to you?
Kimberly: It’s anyone that can’t enough of anything. I have one friend I sell to and they’re—you know what? I think you should answer that question. You’re the collector.
Sharon: I was thinking about that. Is that somebody like me who occasionally will buy—let’s say it’s out of my budget; it’s out of my reach, but it’s so beautiful I have to have it. There are a lot of things I don’t think about that way. I don’t need sports cars. I don’t need a boat. I don’t need a horse.
Kimberly: I think it’s when you can’t stop. I know from my own self I’m a passionate collector. I keep thinking, “I don’t need that, but that’s fantastic.” You try to say, “Hey, I’ve got all this. I don’t need another example of this, but I need an example of this.”
Sharon: I’s like as my mother used to say to me, “You have a black blouse.” Yes, I have a black blouse, but does it have short sleeves? Does it have a bow? Anyway, the other thing you talked about is jewelry by artists versus artists’ jewelry. Can you tell us a little bit more?
Kimberly: The difference between an artist jeweler and jewelry by an artist is this: an artist like Calder, Goya, Dalí, etc. makes other art. They’re more passionate—I don’t know about passionate, but—
Sharon: They’re artists in that way.
Kimberly: They’re artists in a bigger realm. They’re making paintings and sculptures and different things, and jewelry is just a small portion of what their oeuvre is. Whereas an artist jeweler is a jeweler by trade or in the jewelry industry by trade, making one-of-a-kind pieces of jewelry that are in that marketplace. It’s almost like a marketplace situation. You’ve got jewelers and you have artists, but certain jewelers that we call artist jewelers are making one-of-a-kind pieces, usually, or limited pieces for the jewelry market. Does that make sense?
Sharon: Yes, it is hard to define. I’ve talked to a lot of different people about what a passionate collector is and what collecting is. Someday somebody will come up with some definition that’s definite. What you’re saying makes sense. I understand what you’re saying.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Museum of Israel Exhibition
Currently on view at SFO Airport
Marc Cohen and Lisa Berman (no relation)
About Marc Cohen:
Marc Cohen is a highly regarded artist known for his wearable box art. As a former actor, stage manager and set designer, Cohen’s two-inch-square boxes resemble stage sets with three-dimensional figures and images. His one-of-a-kind pieces sit on the shelves of numerous celebrities and can be worn like a brooch or pin. The archive of Cohen’s work is housed at California art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear.
Transcript:
Inspired by his time in theater and created to resemble a stage, Marc Cohen’s box art pieces are well-known among rare jewelry lovers and Hollywood’s most famous artists, actors and producers. Part three-dimensional art, part jewelry, the two-by-two boxes feature images and tiny figures that reflect our world. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his process for creating box art; what it was like to work with theater greats like Tom O’Horgan and Paula Wagner; and why his pieces are more than just shadow boxes. Read the episode transcript for part 2 below.
Sharon: You’ve arrived, it sounds like.
Marc: It’s kind of an affirmation.
Sharon: Absolutely. Do you think the boxes would be as effective if you hadn’t had this experience as a set designer or stage manager in the theater? If I sat down and made a box, I could just stick some figures in it. Do you think that really impacted your work?
Marc: To answer you in an honest way, I think if I hadn’t done those things—all I did before was put little seashells in boxes. I’m skirting away from your answer, so excuse me. I think because I already was someone who had been traveling around the world and already had experiences that were theatrical, because I was meeting people and talking to people standing in the middle of the street in Paris, I was already getting the idea. It was being planted. When I got involved in theater—I also did film—I saw what that was about and how everything was in a frame. A stage in a theater on Broadway, it’s in a box.
Sharon: That’s true.
Marc: It all made a lot of sense to me. There are also ironies about it for me. For example, when I talked about when I was going to high school and people would look at me and think I’m an artist, what they were doing was putting me in a box. I like to think the boxes I create are about that, but they’re beyond. Once someone engages themselves in looking at it and then they end up talking to somebody, it opens up a whole other kind of thing. It breaks down that barrier that a lot of us have with each other. It came from working in theater with someone like Tom O’Horgan, who was way ahead of his time as a Broadway theater director. He did a lot of avant garde, off-off Broadway stuff. He’s no longer alive. He was my best friend in the entire world. There’s not a moment I don’t have gratitude about that friendship, but since then I’ve married. I have a beautiful wife.
My wife is a filmmaker, and she and I are developing another kind of box art. I know; we don’t make jewelry. I’m doing video with her. We have a series called Traveler’s Ball. It's on YouTube. People can watch it if they want. It’s very cutting edge. She was inspired by what I do, where I do images layered in a box. A lot of our videos have layered images.
Along those lines, I have always wanted to create a box video on a small scale. A long time ago, when I first started making these things—I’m a man with a lot of information and ideas in my brain—the technology wasn’t there yet. The nanos and the microscopic things, images on the head of a pin, that wasn’t around when I first started. For example, I made three-dimensional, two-inch-square watches on a band. I don’t have one to show you—Lisa might have one—but I made these. When I was selling on the street, I would wear one and boxes on my lapel. People would see this thing on my wrist and go, “What is that?” I would show them, and they would all go, “Wow, that’s unreal! It’s big, but that’s amazing! When are you going to sell these?” I said, “I’m not ready to sell them yet.” I did eventually sell some. I only made two dozen of them in my life.
If you look at an Apple Watch, they finally did what I was thinking about doing in 1985. The only difference is theirs is a one-dimensional object you wear on your wrist. It is amazing to see somebody with an Apple Watch and all the different things it does, but for me, there’s a missing ingredient. The missing ingredient is a point of view. A point of view is putting characters in front of something, like we are in real life; people standing on the street corner talking, meanwhile the bus is going by. I always wanted to take that idea and put it on a small scale and add the element of art to it. I didn’t want it to be cookie cutter, we’re making five million Apple Watches and everybody’s going to have one. Not everyone’s going to have a Marc Cohen version of that, and I want to keep it that way. I’m famous for a lot of things, but I’m also famous for the fact that I never like to make any of these things more than once or twice. There’s something about that I only made one-of-a-kind images.
In the beginning, I used other people’s images—the fine art of appropriation. There’s a guy who’s no longer alive who I learned a lot about; his name was Joseph Cornell. Joseph Cornell is probably the grandfather of appropriation art. Rauschenberg and Warhol, when they talk about their own art and their influences, they always bring up the name Joseph Cornell. Joseph Cornell made boxes. He handmade them himself. He was an eccentric guy who lived in Utopia, New York. Think about that: Utopia, New York. Joseph Cornell was this rather interesting guy. He was a poet. He was curious. He made all these different boxes, and you can’t buy one. They’re incredibly expensive. But I’ve had people along the way say, “You’re like a modern-day Joseph Cornell.” I don’t know what that exactly means. I’m a modern-day Joseph Cornell? But they talk about what I’ve done and what I’ve accomplished. It’s an interesting thing for me that has followed me in this jewelry story. What else could I tell you?
Sharon: I’m curious. Do people commission you and say, “It’s my husband’s anniversary. I want a box with us and our wedding picture with it.”
Marc: Exactly. For example, Lisa Berman has a relative whose name is Virginia Apgar. Virginia Apgar is famous because she created the Apgar Score. I don’t know if your viewers know what that is, but they can look it up. There was an event Lisa was going to be doing. Lisa, being an old friend of mine, I felt like I wanted to give her a memento. There’s a forever stamp, and this is Virginia Apgar.
Sharon: A frame with the brooch.
Marc: A frame with the brooch in the middle, and all around are these images of Virginia. Warhol and Hockney did this thing where they took a person’s face—I don’t know if you’ve ever seen any of those silkscreens that Warhol used to do. I’m influenced by that too. That’s how I came up with this idea of making Lisa a one-of-a-kind, object of art concept.
Sharon, I want to tell you another thing: how the box art thing really started. Originally, when I first started doing things, I started a company called Still Life. Still Life was the early stages of box art, but it wasn’t in a box. It was a flat piece of plastic, circular most of the time, and it was either blue or white or green. On top of that, I would marry other things. I had little three-dimensional palm trees, and I would glue them to the surface of this round, circular piece of plastic, and then I would glue those figures I’m telling you about. I would have people at the beach. If it was a travel map, I would have people with suitcases. I had a whole series. I had like Still Life Creations Beach, Still Life Creations Travel, on and on. Still Life creation stages is how it evolved to the boxes. The point is that when I was doing Still Life, one night, I came across the idea of taking a little box and turning it into something you wear. That doorway I was speaking about earlier opened me up even further into where I am to this day. I’m still very fertile with a lot of ideas. You live in this visual world.
Sharon: Right, absolutely. I love the idea that they’re door openers and conversation starters that break down barriers. It’s not easy to do in New York or anywhere, but I don’t think New York is the conversation-starting capital of the world, let’s say.
Marc: Right. All the world’s a stage, and all of us are players on that stage. Some people have the ability to get on that stage and act and do, while other people are off on the side watching. They’re not as easily going to jump in. Ruth Bader Ginsberg whom we all love—who didn’t love Ruth Bader Ginsberg? What an incredibly magnificent woman. When she was out of being a Supreme Court justice, Lisa had this idea for a show. She invited all her wearable art friends to come up with a collar idea. She mentioned it to me, and I was trying to figure out what I could do with boxes to make a collar. I’m going to try to do this carefully. Behind me—
Sharon: We’ll show a picture of this when we post the podcast so people can see it.
Marc: Right, behind me is this. This is a series of 18 boxes in a square. I mounted it on leather. I made it in such a way that you could take this off and wear it around your neck as a necklace. My wife, who is very gorgeous—she used to be a model, among other things in her life—she wore it. Lisa has a picture of her wearing it. It’s one of those objects that, if you wear it among the other incredible collars that all of Lisa’s artists made, this is even more of a conversation piece because of the image of Ruth. In each box I put her most-known rulings, the titles of them. Wearing that, going to an opening somewhere, it’s going to draw people’s attention. That’s why I keep on saying the same thing over again: every box tells a story.
Sharon: Where do you get the little figures? Do you buy them at doll stores where people make doll houses, or do you go to the toy store?
Marc: It used to be a trade secret. I tried in the beginning to keep everything I did very secret, but if you’re a creative person and you buy one of my boxes, if you really want to know how I made it, you can take it all apart and figure it out. If they’re really curious, they could look at the figures, and now that we Google everything, they could find out that the figures are made in Europe. When I first started, I bought the figures at a model train store. Model train stores have everything for making dioramas.
Sharon: They’re too large for what you’re doing, but I was thinking about the little plastic toy soldiers my brother used to have.
Marc: Exactly. I have made boxes bigger than two inches square to be worn. That’s easy to wear, but suddenly six inches to wear—that’s a major statement. I used to take top hats and other hats and make a whole diorama around the hat, one-of-a-kind. I made a whole bunch of those, and I sold those pretty quickly. I made sunglasses that had a whole scene in the rim of the sunglasses. They didn’t last very long because they’re fragile; the wrong windstorm and they break. That’s why the box, in the end, became the most utilitarian object to protect what was inside, the image and the little characters. There’s meaning in that, protecting ourselves.
Sharon: Where are you getting your ideas from? Are you walking down the street and seeing the World Trade Center and saying, “Oh, that would be great”?
Marc: That’s interesting, too. I don’t live in New York City anymore. I really wish I was living in New York City. I can’t afford it right now, but in the early days when I first was doing this, the mid-80s, early 90s when I was selling on the street, I would walk up and down all the fashion streets where all the storefronts are, a million different shops. There are boxes, but they have mannequins inside them. They are large versions of what I was doing on a small scale, and I would get inspired just by seeing what other window display people were doing. I would go to Barney’s. Barney’s uptown was amazing, the designers of the windows there. So were the windows in Tiffany. Because I’m a box artist, I see these things and they inspire me. I’d hear political news of the day, and then I’d try to match something with what was happening in the world with an image, either one I would create or one I would find and appropriate.
Sharon: Do you call yourself a box artist if people ask, “What do you do?” Do you say you’re an artist or a maker of jewelry? What do you call yourself?
Marc: I call myself a box artist.
Sharon: A box artist.
Marc: I want to call myself a box artist. First of all, I like to think I created that name. Let’s put it another way. When I was doing what I was doing, people used to say, “Oh, it’s a shadow box,” because that’s how people can connect with the idea. Shadow boxes, if you know what they are, are mostly that. They are cardboard most of the time, and people put things in them and they create shadows against the inside of the box. When I first started making these things, everybody was asking, “What is it? What do you call it?” and I would say, “It’s a box and it has a little bit of art inside of it. It’s box art.” The name stuck, and every time people would come up to me, they’d say, “What’s your latest box art?” When you could get on the internet and Google things, I never saw the word box art in relationship to what I do, but I also never saw the word box art in relationship to anything. Once I started using the name, and when I would make my business cards and they would say, “Marc Cohen, Box Art,” then people would have that. You know how it is. The buzz gets out, so the word eventually stuck. So, I claim box art and I claim myself as a box artist. I claim myself as a lot of other things too, but some of them I can’t mention.
It’s a funny journey, all of this. Now, it’s Box Art Dreams. What is Box Art Dreams? Box Art Dreams is video, because that’s the next level. I want to get even more intimate. I’d like the store to be even bigger in its depth and in its message. One image can do that on a certain level. For the person that’s looking at it, one image can stimulate a lot of images in their head, but think about on top of it. If I have a two-inch square box and it has a little video screen inside of it, and there’s a little movie in there and there are characters standing in front of it looking at it, I don’t think I’m going to be able to make them fast enough.
Sharon: It’s an interesting idea.
Marc: That’s the goal. Now, I can’t do that alone. My wife is a video maker and editor. I’m plugging Julia Danielle—she’s a genius at video. One of our goals is to take the wearable art idea and give it even more of an attraction. It’s not just on your lapel; there’s something flickering in the box.
Sharon: That would be really cool, yes.
Marc: If it lights up, God almighty, what people would think. That’s where I’m at. Once I do that, I don’t know. Then, the next is large-scale exhibition. Starting with little boxes and leading me on a journey of jewelry and art.
Sharon: I do want to mention, for those who are interested, that your boxes at this stage are with Lisa at Sculpture to Wear. We’ll also be posting a link and a lot of other information about today. It’ll be with the podcast. Marc, thank you so much. That was just so interesting.
Marc: I appreciate it. Thank you. I want to tell you I’m honored for what you’re doing.
Sharon: Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Museum of Israel Exhibition
Currently on view at SFO Airport
Marc Cohen and Lisa Berman (no relation)
About Marc Cohen:
Marc Cohen is a highly regarded artist known for his wearable box art. As a former actor, stage manager and set designer, Cohen’s two-inch-square boxes resemble stage sets with three-dimensional figures and images. His one-of-a-kind pieces sit on the shelves of numerous celebrities and can be worn like a brooch or pin. The archive of Cohen’s work is housed at California art jewelry gallery Sculpture to Wear.
Transcript:
Inspired by his time in theater and created to resemble a stage, Marc Cohen’s box art pieces are well-known among rare jewelry lovers and Hollywood’s most famous artists, actors and producers. Part three-dimensional art, part jewelry, the two-by-two boxes feature images and tiny figures that reflect our world. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about his process for creating box art; what it was like to work with theater greats like Tom O’Horgan and Paula Wagner; and why his pieces are more than just shadow boxes. Read the episode transcript for part 1 below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Marc Cohen. Marc is a former actor, set designer and stage manager. He is a highly regarded artist recognized for his box art, which graces the shelves of many celebrities. The box art pieces are often worn as brooches. We’ll hear all about his jewelry journey today, but before we do that, I want to thank Lisa Berman of Sculpture to Wear for making it possible for Marc to be with us today. Marc, so glad to have you.
Marc: As am I. Thank you for inviting me.
Sharon: Great to be with you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It started with you traveling around the world from what you’ve said. Tell us about that and how everything worked from there.
Marc: I was a 20-year-old young man and I left America, basically, on a freight ship. That’s how I started the journey. I have a saying now, which is “Every box art tells a story.” The irony of that is that when I travel, because I was on the road for a very long time, going all over the world, I liked collecting things but I had no place to put them. I found these little, tiny boxes that I used to take candy out of, and when they were empty, I went, “Oh, this is a great thing to put little things inside of.” I already was starting the idea of collecting little objects that I might go back to at some point and use it as a part of the art. But I traveled; I went around the world all the way to India until 1970. Then in 1970, I decided to return to America and relocate myself within the country. Prior to that, I had left in 1966. It was during the Vietnam War.
I was raised in Southern California, so I came back to America and went back to my roots. I have a stepsister, and she had a friend named Tom O’Horgan. Tom O’Horgan is actually very famous in the theater world, primarily because he directed the show on Broadway called “Hair.” He directed many other shows after that, but that is the one he's most known for. In meeting each other for the first time, he asked me about myself, and I said, “I traveled around the world and I don’t have any real direction about what I want to do next.” He said, “Well, I need a driver because I’m working on these film projects. Do you drive?” and I said, “Yeah, I drive.” So, he hired me as a driver.
During that period, which was in the mid-70s, I drove him around Los Angeles. I knew Los Angeles like the back of my hand, and we went to all these different studios and met all these different, incredibly famous people; directors, writers and the like, actors and so on and so forth. I was getting a little bit of a background, but what I didn’t know at the time, not until many years later, was how I ended up becoming a curator and jewelry maker. I was influenced by the work of Tom O’Horgan. Being a set director, he did plays. The things he worked on in LA ended up getting finished, and he said, “I’m going back to New York. Keep in touch with me. Maybe there’s some work for you in New York.”
About six months later, I called him on the phone. He said, “Marc, we’re doing this show on Broadway. It’s about Lenny Bruce and I have a great job. I’d love you to come and work on it.” I said, “Well, I’ve never lived in New York, but I do know who Lenny Bruce is. So yeah, I’m coming.” I went to New York and got a room at the Chelsea Hotel. It was during the time of Andy Warhol and a lot of other people living in the Chelsea Hotel. So here I am, in the middle of this incredible epicenter of activity; there was so much different art on the walls of the Chelsea Hotel back in those days, and all these Warhol people and other characters from the avant garde world in New York City. That’s the background of how I got to where I got. What I mean is that as a young guy, I didn’t know a lot, and I didn’t have a lot of background in art per se. I was more like a young guy who was just wandering on the planet, as I said earlier.
So, here I am in New York. I’m in the middle of an epicenter of activity, and Tom says to me, “Well, we’re in pre-production for the show, and there are a lot of other things I would like you to do for me.” He gave me a lot of different jobs, and I went around and did that for a while until the show went into production. During those pre-production meetings, he would meet with all these different designers. One of those designers is now a very famous set designer by the name of Robin Wagner. Robin Wagner went on to design “A Chorus Line” and a lot of other incredible Broadway productions. Robin, over the years, became one of my closest friends. The reason I bring him up is because we used to go his studio, which at the time was in a building called 890 Studios, which is owned by Michael Bennett, who was the director of “A Chorus Line.” I’d go to his studio with Tom, and he would have models of shows. I was picking up the incredibly creative process of how you put together an idea for a show and a stage. He would have little characters he would use to put on models of shows. I took note of those little figures, but I kept it hidden in the back of my brain, not knowing anything, nothing preplanned about what I was doing other than being Tom’s assistant.
We eventually went to Broadway with “Lenny.” “Lenny” opened. It was a big success and for about 30 years, I worked primarily with Tom O’Horgan in theater.
Sharon: Is it Tom O’Horgan?
Marc: Yes, it’s spelled O-‘-H-o-r-g-a-n. He was an artist. He always considered himself to be one of those people that didn’t do things that are the typical Broadway. I mean, when you think about “Hair”—I didn’t work on the original. I worked on a later production with Tom, but by that point, I had already worked on “Lenny Bruce,” “Jesus Christ Superstar” and so many other amazing things. We did opera. Tom did a lot of things, and Tom’s influences and Robin’s influences are guides to what I eventually ended up becoming, which is an artist who creates wearable art.
When you think about jewelry, for me, typically jewelry would be semiprecious stones, silver, gold, pearls, all that kind of stuff. I’m not the kind of creator or designer that would even know where to start to put those things together. I love beads. In the 60s, I made my own beads and necklaces, but I didn’t see that as where I wanted to go. Because of my memory of the stage and theater and stories—when I told you earlier about the boxes, during the period I was living in New York, I collected a lot of things in my little East Village apartment.
I happened to be downtown in the Soho area; I was down on Canal Street. I was walking along the street, and all the shops had things out in front of them for sale. I walked by, and there were empty boxes and lots of other things. I was just motivated to buy them, so I bought them. I brought them back to my apartment and I was sitting at my little worktable looking at all these objects. I’m thinking, “Maybe I could make something out of this. I know that this coming year, Tom has this big Christmas party, and usually he’s the guy who gives everybody something unique for a present.” There I was, looking at all these things, and I looked at the little box and glued a little figure I had inside the box. For example, this is a box. It’s an empty one.
Sharon: Like an acrylic, plastic box.
Marc: A plastic box, an acrylic plastic box. Most people would take this box. It has a lid. They would put anything in it, but they didn’t think they could put a whole story together. When I put the little figures in the box like that, and it has a lid and I put it like that, then I have a box with people standing in front of it, but they’re sort of looking through. What are they looking at? I started to figure out I needed to have an image to tell the story. This is the World Trade Center.
Sharon: So, you’re creating little worlds inside the box.
Marc: Right. Since I started the idea in 1985, I have made thousands, and out of those thousands, many of them are one-of-a-kind. How I can I put it? Because of my traveling and because I’m a very sentimental guy—with these boxes, the little characters can’t talk; they’re little plastic figures. They only way you could tell the story, as jewelry tells a story, is by what you put behind them. So, in this case, I put the World Trade Center. I had a little character standing there looking at it. I actually made this before the World Trade Center fell down.
My meaning of all of this is that it was something in the beginning I was aware of. The one I’m wearing on my lapel—this one is a door. There’s a woman standing, looking not at us; she’s looking towards the doorway. Anybody who would come up and look at my work, they would say, “Wow, that is amazing! Where did you get that?” This is how it started and how I got into fashion. “Where did you get that?” and I said, “Well, I made it.” And they said, “Really? Where can I get one?” And I said, “You can buy this one.” In the beginning, I used to sell right off my lapel. I love dressing. Double-breasted suits are my favorite attire, so I would have a box on my lapel. As I said, I would go all over New York City to openings, plays and the like. At openings and galleries and museums or wherever I went, people from across the gallery, they would see me dressed and see this thing on my lapel, curious to what it is. They would walk up to me. They wouldn’t even look at me; they would look right at the box and go, “Oh my god, what is that?” When I said, “Well, it’s a box and I made it,” they would go, “Wow! I want it.”
It got me to the point where—this is the most interesting thing—many years later, after traveling and having lived in Israel—one of the places I did live—after about 25 years, I decided to go back there for a visit. I had friends that had immigrated to Israel, and some of my friends were there to stay. I went to visit them, and they all are in the arts. When I was there, one day they said, “Why don’t we go to the Israel Museum up in Jerusalem?” I was in Tel Aviv staying with them. We go up to Jerusalem. I was wearing a box. I’m walking around the Israel Museum—this is so amazing to me—and a woman from across the room, a very tiny lady, walks up to me. She says the same thing many other people said: “Wow! What is that? Where did you get that?” I said, “Well, I made it,” as I said earlier.
The point of it is that these boxes have a story in them. For me, every story leads into another. How I mean that is that a person who I don’t even know comes up to me, looks at my work; they’re inspired by it; they talk about it; they tell me things about it that I’ve never myself, as the creator of it, imagined how significant it was or what it meant to them. As in theater, as in my relationship to Tom O’Horgan—who broke the fourth wall when he did “Hair” on Broadway—during the period I was creating these, people in New York and probably everywhere else didn’t exactly walk up to each other and start a conversation with strangers. I had the object that changed all that, and I had not realized that until I started going out and wearing them.
Getting back to Israel, this woman, who I later found out was named Tammy Schatz, she was the curator of one of the wings in the Israel Museum. She invites me the next day to come and sit and talk with them, because they were planning this show and exhibition the following year called “Heroes.” So, I went back the next day. I sat with her and bunch of other people and they started telling me what they were planning. They said, “Well, you’re an American, and you must know a lot about American pop culture. You know Superman and Batman and all the stuff like that,” and I said, “Yeah, I do.” Once they learned I worked in theater and designed sets—because by this point, I was not only making little box sets, I was also making large set pieces for shows. I have also done installations and the like. So, they invited me based on an illustration I sent to them. The next year, I went back to Israel, and I did this 10-feet-high, 25-feet-long three-dimensional cityscape. It was boxes, another version of boxes. It goes on and on from there, Sharon. It’s always been fascinating me, how these boxes have gotten me into all kinds of great trouble. As I continue to say, every box tells a story.
Sharon: We’ll have pictures of the boxes when we post the podcast, but I want to describe it to people. These are small. What, two by two?
Marc: Two-inch square, three quarters of an inch deep. When you buy them, they’re empty; they don’t have anything except the lid and the box. I basically invented an idea; up to that point, I never saw anybody else doing what I was doing. Later on, I found that I inspired other people’s creativity. There was these little boxes, and every picture tells a story. A picture’s worth a thousand words.
Sharon: Marc, before all this happened, before you befriended Tom and he befriended you, did you consider yourself artistic or creative? Was that a field you wanted to pursue?
Marc: Kind of. I didn’t literally say, “Wow, I’m an artist! I’m going to create.” When I was a young guy growing up—I grew up in Philadelphia until I was about 13. My father and mother were in the beauty business. My father was a very well-known women’s hairdresser. He had his own beauty parlor. My parents were beatniks back in the 50s in Philadelphia. They were very artistic people, and all their friends were very artistic. When you’re a 13, 14-year-old, it doesn’t register, “Oh, I’m going to grow up to be like my parents,” but they are influences. They all wore black all the time, and as I was growing up, that was my look; I wear all black. I’m going to high school during the 60s, and it’s all surfers and bleach blond hair, and here comes me with skin-tight black pants and Beatle boots and cravats. Kids who were friends, they would come up and say, “Who are you? What do you think you’re doing? You must be an artist.” The idea stuck, but as I said about journeys through life, the fascinating thing for me is that I could go around the world, have all these different things happening in my 20s, return to New York and be on this journey where I’m still at.
I know your podcast has to do with why we’re here: to talk about jewelry. I came up with a way for people to wear jewelry that has a story in it and it isn’t just a beautiful necklace. Most of my clients over the years have been women, and women know something much more than men know about wearing an object that attracts attention. Women know how to find beautiful objects and adorn themselves, whether it’s a necklace or earrings or the like. What I also found was interesting—and this actually happened; I neglected to mention this, but at one point when I stopped doing theater with Tom and only focused on making box art, I ended up becoming a street artist.
I was selling in the beginning to every major department store, and I was getting orders for thousands of boxes that I had to come up with. I was a one-man factory, so I was pulling my hair out of my head thinking, “How the hell am I going to get all these boxes out?” Eventually I discovered there’s no way I can be a manufacturer of these things; they’re all one-of-a-kind. I’m not going to make 12 of the same thing. A friend of my said, “There’s a street fair down on Broadway. Maybe you should go there and sell on the street.” That opened a doorway, like this doorway that’s on my lapel, into a world that I have never been able to look back on. What I mean by that is that once I discovered going to Soho, which was in the early stages of its evolution to become an epicenter for artists, many of them very famous—Keith Haring, David Hockney, the list is incredible of the people that were living in Soho during this period.
I went down there; on West Broadway there were very few artists, and I was one of them. I would be standing there all dressed, and people would be walking up and down the street. It was the most incredible way for them to find out if I was marketing what I had on my lapel. People would walk by, they’d see this guy with a fedora all in black, wearing a box, and they’d be curious. “What’s he wearing?” They’d come up. They wanted to ask me a about them and how much they were. They would say, “I’ll take that one, that one and that one,” and that used to happen to me constantly. I never could make enough. The thousands I had made that never got sold in department stores were being sold like crazy on the streets of Soho. I started to get a reputation as the box man. One of the clients that bought from me called me the box man. There were times I would go down to Soho in the early morning on Saturday or Sunday, and there were people milling around where I would stand, waiting for me. They would go, “Here comes the box man.” It was crazy.
Among all those people, some of the people that stopped and looked at my work were people like David Hockney. David Hockney actually came up to me one day, after a lot of people walked away buying my stuff, and he was looking at them real close up. He started talking to me and giving me suggestions about what I could do with them and how I could display them. He said, “You’ve got this little box. Where are you going to put it? Maybe you should put it in something, like a frame?” That was the most incredibly brilliant selling idea for my boxes. What I did with the frame idea, when I figured out how to do it—there are many of them behind me; they’re all frames. The idea was that you can wear it, but you can also put it on your wall, and your wall can wear your art. I made it so the frame had an opening in it that the box sat inside of. If you’re going out to an opening or a fashion show or something like that, “I think tonight I’ll wear one of the Marc Cohens.” That was the idea, and that took off like crazy from there.
I have to also tell you I didn’t have any agents. I didn’t have a rep or anything like that. The only rep I had was Marc Cohen. So, it was a cool journey through art. I evolved the idea of being an artist selling on the street, where I just had an easel, to having a pushcart. It was like immigrants coming to America way, way back, my family being some of them that went to Philadelphia. My great, great grandmother, she had a pushcart on South Street in Philadelphia. It’s another part of the story of jewelry. It bridged into me getting even more known.
I went back to California where I grew up. I found that in Santa Monica, they had a promenade they were developing. They actually had people with carts they rented they would put out on the promenade. I found out I could rent carts, so I rented one and came up with this idea. It actually came from people on the street. People would walk by and say, “Wow, you’re like a tiny gallery with all your art.” I came up with this name, the World’s Smallest Art Gallery. I took the cart and turned it into a miniature to scale, like if you went into a gallery, but it was open to the people to see it from all different sides. I had walls and characters that were larger than the ones in my boxes. They were standing looking at the art. It was all on that level; it was very interactive. People would walk by, and there would be a lot of celebrities all the time on the street. Suddenly, not only was it regular people buying work, not only David Hockney, but very famous people in Hollywood. Along the way, I reconnected with a friend of mine who was very famous, Paula Wagner. She’s now very famous for being a producer with Tom Cruise; they had a company called Cruise Wagner. She’s a friend of mine from all the way back to the “Lenny” days. We rekindled our friendship in LA. She knows everybody in Hollywood, and once she saw my work, she flipped out and said, “We’ve got to do something with this.” She hired me, and the first thing I did for her was wearable box art in a frame. It was for Oliver Stone.
Sharon: I’m sorry, who it was for? I didn’t hear.
Marc: Oliver Stone the director.
Sharon: Oliver Stone, oh wow!
Marc: She also represented Val Kilmer and Tom Cruise and Demi Moore. Before you know it, she’s asking me if I can make a box for this person, on and on. The biggest thing for me at the time was Madonna. I knew Madonna from a long time ago. When I say I knew her, I lived in New York in the early 70s and 80s, and I used to go to all these clubs. I would go to this one called Danceteria. At the time, Madonna was a coat check girl there, and eventually she did a show there, which I saw with a bunch of my friends. Then she went on to do whatever she wanted on her own.
Somehow or another, a friend of hers bought one my pieces to give to her as a gift, but this is the best part of it. I didn’t know this until much later on. One night in LA, I went to this private photo exhibition; it was a photographer who had done all the photography for Rudi Gernreich, the fashion designer with those bathing suits. I’m going to the exhibition with friends. I had my box on my lapel. I’m walking around and it’s a tiny, little gallery, so people don’t follow each other—everybody goes wherever they’re going. A bunch of people are coming that way and we’re walking, walking, walking. We come to this one, most famous photograph of a topless model. I’m looking at photograph, and standing next to me is Madonna. I turn and right away, she looks at me and goes, “I have one of those boxes.” I said, “I’m the artist. I made it,” and she said to me, “I Iove that box and I have it right by my bed,” and I said, “Oh, how cool.” She asked me a few questions and I filled her in on my background. I didn’t bring up the fact that I remember her from Danceteria.
Then it was like an avalanche. I got picked up by Maxfield’s Clothing Store in LA when I started the frames. Everybody saw how cool it is as an art piece, but you can wear it. Maxfield loved what I was doing, and he took me on and carried my stuff in his store. This is another amazing thing: the dresser for Arsenio Hall was in the store one day buying things for him to wear on the show. I don’t know whether it was a man or a woman, but they bought an outfit for Arsenio, and the salesperson said, “We just got this new wearable art piece in. You’ve got to see this.” They looked at it and bought one. That night on the Arsenio Hall Show—if you ever watch his talk show, there’s intro music, and then the curtain goes away and he stands there; it’s Arsenio Hall. On that particular night, he’s standing there, wearing a collarless Armani suit, and on his jacket is a square.
From a distance you can’t tell what it is. I found out this afterwards. I got the tape. It was amazing; he didn’t himself know what it really was, but he came out and the camera zooms up on him. When I saw what the box was, I got a chill. It was a period where I started to not just do people standing in the box, looking at the image or looking out away from the image; it was a period where I was putting images up against the face, so it would be a three-dimensional idea. In this particular one, it was Martin Luther King. I had done part of his face in profile in the foreground, and then I had done some backdrop. It had something to do about racial issues.
I didn’t just make cutesy box art. I really am not about cutesy box art. I’m very passionate about a lot of things in life. I’m very political about certain things, and I want people to have an opportunity to talk with each other about things that are meaningful, particularly where we live these days. It’s important to have that doorway of how people get through it and interact with each other without being sensitive and thinking you’re going to be judged by whatever they say or do. We are in a period where people have to be careful about that. So, it amazes me that this tool—because it is a tool—is, in a way, much different than things made by other jewelry designers that Lisa Berman curates or represents. That is mostly what Lisa represents, like Robert Lee Morris. I knew Robert Lee Morris personally. He’s a genius and he’s a friend. Thomas Mann is one of my closest friends. I’m friends with others as well because of how we interact with each other.
The image is what it’s about. It’s how the characters are placed within the box. Along the way, I started thinking, “I want to get out even more than what I’ve done. I want to try to make work even more original.” We live in a period where they have this thing called a 3D printer. It prints pretty much anything. I can create a series of my own characters, which is something I always wanted to do. I’ve only just started doing this. I started developing this idea, where I custom make three-dimensional boxes on this scale and a much larger scale. That’s where I’m headed. I have lots of collectors. They would be more than happy if I started making little box art again. My newest work is much larger. I make boxes now that are 20 feet big, installation pieces.
Sharon: They’re hard to wear.
Marc: They’re hard to wear, right? I know your program is primarily about jewelry. The thing about that, though, is what I am planning to do. When I do have that exhibition, the large-scale Marc Cohen box art exhibition, I will have miniatures of that exhibition, like many other people do when they market things. The Van Gogh Experience—I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but there’s a thing on the road right now that’s video mapping Van Gogh’s paintings on a building. When you go to the gift shop, they’ve marketed Van Gogh’s work to death. I would do something similar as a collectable.
I had Sotheby’s in London; they heard about me through our people in Israel. I was invited to do this big exhibition at Sotheby’s. It’s a big auction and a silent auction. I got commissioned to make three boxes with lights. There weren’t any more wearable, but I did that, and it sold for the equivalent to $10,000. Suddenly, my prices are changing. The people that bought my boxes on the street from the beginning—it’s embarrassing to say—but when I first started selling them, my boxes were $20. They’re no longer $20. They have been selling at auction for a lot more than $20. Now there’s talk about me in way that I never, ever imagined, and it’s joyful. After 40 years of doing nothing but making boxes, I don’t know what—
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About Michael Burpoe
Michael Burpoe is Director of User Experience for Punchmark, a digital marketing agency that specializes in the jewelry industry. Michael created Punchmark’s UX team, which was assembled to take very specific initiatives toward fine-tuning tools and features, and improving the platform on both the front-end and back-end. Since early 2019, Michael has also headed up the strategy, planning, and execution behind Punchmark's Livestream Education program, the In The Loupe podcast, and the Punchmark Community on Facebook. Originally from Saranac Lake, NY, in Michael’s spare time you can find him practicing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or painting cityscapes.
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After working with jewelry brands of all sizes for the last several years, Michael Burpoe has learned a thing or two about the strategies that make jewelry businesses more successful online. As Director of User Experience for Punchmark, Michael has helped even the most hesitant jewelers invest in their websites and reap the rewards of a fine-tuned digital marketing strategy. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to explain why selling jewelry online is only going to become more common; how to make customers feel comfortable buying luxury items online; and how jewelry companies can use digital marketing tricks to increase sales. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Do you find that the people who are calling your company, prospective clients, do they tend to be in an older demographic, like a baby boomer? Not that they don’t understand what you’re saying, but do they see themselves in you, let’s say?
Michael: That’s a great question. It depends. If you had asked me when I started out at Punchmark about five years ago what the average demographic of people coming to us for a website is, a lot of the time, it’s an older demographic. Probably 60, 65 or so, looking for their first website or saying, “Oh I have this really bare-bones website and we need to get a modern website.” The reason why is because they went to some jewelry show and they were told by a speaker, “Hey, you need to have an online presence,” and they’re like, “Alright, I’m here,” but they haven’t really been convinced of the value of it.
Now what I’m seeing is that, again, we’re in a Covid world where the impending-ness and the seriousness of business are paramount. A lot of times the people who are running the website aren’t the owners anymore. They know it’s a full-time job, like I said. You can’t have the business owner being the only one that touches the website. It’s not going to get the love it needs. A lot of times we’re seeing younger people who are involved in the online business, whether that means it’s their store manager or the children of the owner. Sometimes they are specialists who they hired specifically for their website, which I advocate for. We’re seeing a switch in that. I think a lot of people still need to be convinced of the value of a website, but it’s becoming better, I’d say.
Sharon: I’m almost afraid to ask, but once you’ve done the website, do your clients understand that’s just the beginning? That there’s SEO, PPC and social media? Do they understand there’s a lot more?
Michael: Early on when I first started here, they did not know that. They thought that it was a set it and forget it methodology. They get it up, they launch their website, they push it live, and they think it’s going to do all the things for them. That is not the case, and we do our best to communicate that as early and often as we possibly can. I always say to people, “Your website will never be done—ever, ever, ever, ever. It has to be constantly updated.” We do have services for that kind of stuff. This isn’t a sales pitch. We do have services where people can pay for us to do a lot of the ongoing work: creating landing pages, doing their social media, taking on their SEO strategy. There are services out there for them, not just with us, but we need people to understand that you can’t just set it up and it’s going to make $1 million on its own. It takes some work. It takes some thought.
Sharon: You said an important word, strategy. How do you explain to them that you can’t have it look like the Lifesavers package over here and the Tiffany package over there? How do you explain this?
Michael: It depends on your service. Every business, it’s like its own unique person. They all have brand voice and brand ideology and all those things that come into it; that’s the bigger picture. When it comes to the web presence in general, it comes into things like what are your goals as a business? What is your brick and mortar doing as far as dollars? Is it a $1 million dollar store? Is it a $5 million store? Is it a $20 million store? We service the entire gambit. Are you in a small town? That gives you a different strategy. Do you have competitors? Are there other jewelry stores in your town? I’m from a town of 4,000 people. There was one jewelry store in the next town over, and those people have a different strategy for, for example, pay-per-click or SEO than people in Los Angeles, where there’s a jewelry store every mile. That is a different strategy as far as how centralized they should be targeting, how broad. The people in the next town over who have a jewelry store, they can set their search radius to 40 miles or 50 miles, whereas the people in Los Angeles need to be targeting very hyper-specific keywords. It's also going to cost a lot more money because the competition is more. So, it all depends. There’s no hard-and-fast rule when it comes to, “Oh, you need to be doing X,” because it has to be tailored to what your business approach is as well as where you’re located.
Sharon: I’m sure you’re thinking about this when you’re thinking about the user experience, but tell us more about how that role differs. Doesn’t everybody in a sense have direct user experience?
Michael: I think that’s a great question also. User experience is very much the nebulous specter that we’re always trying to catch. I always say I can feel it when I feel it. Buying with Amazon—I hate using Amazon for the experience, but let’s even talk about Nike. Nike makes great shoes. I buy all my shoes from Nike. Well, what Nike does that is so incredible is that they make it so you can find your product as seamlessly and without pause as possible. When I am buying a pair of shoes, I know I can go in and find the shoes I want without having to look. You go on. You click on shoes. They ask you men’s or women’s shoes. Well, I want men’s. Do you want running shoes or trail shoes, because there’s a difference? I want street running shoes. You click on those. They show you all of them. They have alternative angles. Those are all things that go into user experience.
The other things that go into it are kind of magic tricks. For example, people who are listening at home, do this: go to Nike and add a product to your shopping cart. Go to check out in the shopping cart. What you’re not going to realize until I point it out to you is that the entire navigation goes away; it disappears. The only thing that shows is the Nike logo on the top. This is true for Burberry. This is true for Amazon. When you get into the buy funnel—buy funnel, that’s a fancy word for when you get into the checkout process—they get rid of as many distractions as possible. They understand that you are as close as possible to taking out your wallet and paying for those shoes or what have you, and they don’t want to distract you with the opportunity to go back and read about the latest tube tops. They want you to go in and buy those shoes, and they get rid of all the distractions. That’s one thing we’re trying to improve as well as our checkout experience.
You can see this in real life. There is user experience in real life, and one of those examples is Michael’s, the craft store. There’s a reason why they make the checkout line so frigging long. It’s because they don’t want you to get in line and see how long the line looks and then leave. They want you to get into it, and the chance of your leaving and not converting on your sale is much lower if you’re going to have to bump into other people and exit the—what is it called—the cattle line. It’s very important. People have done the strategy and thought about this kind of stuff, and you can see it everywhere on websites with user experience.
Sharon: That’s interesting. Maybe you do this on some of the sites—I’m thinking maybe it’s Postmates that does this—but you check out people who bought what you bought, those pants or this top or whatever.
Michael: Right, upsells.
Sharon: I guess. It seems like that might be another strategy. Is it Home Goods where the checkout line is full of all the little impulse purchase things, the dollar items?
Michael: Well, they know that those impulse purchases, that’s exactly what they are. They’re impulse, which means I’m going to reach over and grab the stuffed animal for my significant other at home without thinking about it. If they took that stuffed animal and put it in one of their aisles, the chance of my doing that is going be less. Also, the time I’m going to spend in front of that stuffed animal is going to be quite a bit higher while I’m standing in line as opposed to walking down an aisle.
It all comes down to data. There you can find all these really interesting things. I use this example all the time; you buy a pair of sapphire earrings. Well, if you have a little bit of a budget, maybe you should get a sapphire bracelet or a sapphire necklace and those sorts of things. Maybe you don’t; no problem. But when it comes to offering that and the chance that they convert on it, one in 10, even one in 100, well, you just sold double the amount of your product. It’s all about those little things that go into having a successful website. It’s taking into account previous trends and things that are hot, you might say, and leaning into them.
Sharon: As the Director of User Experience, I know it’s all about data no matter what, but are you looking at that data and saying, “This is how we can improve the experience”? What are you looking at, exactly?
Michael: You can do things in a variety of different ways when you look at data. Two years ago, Punchmark had a big switch where we measure everything now internally and externally. The mindset is that you can’t fix what you can’t measure. A lot of what we’re seeing is that the average transaction size is going up. What that means, if you think about it a little bit, is that people are becoming more comfortable buying stuff online. The other thing we’re seeing as far as data is financing. There are companies like Sezzle and Affirm where you can see a variety of different options. We’re seeing that retailers that offer some type of financing, shoppers want the opportunity to use that. Affirm allows you to split payments into up to 12 payments.
Why is that good? Well, buying jewelry is a luxury. It’s expensive. If I’m going to say, “O.K., you need to throw down $1,000 for this bracelet,” maybe they don’t have $1,000. Maybe you won’t ever be in a financial state where you can afford $1,000 off the top and hand it over, but if I was to say, “O.K., you can pay me $100 for 12 months,” the odds are that fits a little bit better. We are looking at the state of these retailer websites that offer financing options, and we see that they are converting on higher-ticket price point items a lot more frequently. That’s an example of the things we look for that we can reverse engineer.
Sharon: What differences do you see between a website for the rest of us versus for those in the jewelry industry? Are there certain things that jewelry industry professionals, whether you’re a jeweler, a retailer, a maker, a bench jeweler, should keep in mind, as opposed to somebody who manufactures widgets?
Michael: To make sure I’m answering your correct question, you’re saying a difference between a small-town jeweler versus a Tiffany?
Sharon: I’m saying more if somebody who manufacturers bandages decides they’re going to do a website because they want to attract wholesale clients versus a jewelry industry retailer or manufacturer, are there certain things that you think are different?
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. We have to look at the similarities in the products and also the prices of these products. Back to jewelry and luxury items, it’s a one-time purchase, one-time meaning if you buy this $1,000 bracelet and you wear it every day for a year and you love that bracelet, you’re probably not going to go back and buy the same bracelet again. Maybe you would, but probably not; that’s not what we see. The reason is because that bracelet is still as good as the first time you got it, and that has to do with luxury, long-terms items.
A similar industry that has a similar buying state of mind is the furniture business. For example, think about the similarities if I buy a couch. Couches are really expensive if you’re curious. We’ll pretend this couch is $4,000. I love that couch. If I sit on it every single day for a year and I think to myself, “Man, this couch is awesome,” odds are I’m not going to go back and buy that same couch, but I could buy a matching loveseat. The same thing with jewelry. If I like that bracelet, I’ll probably buy a matching earring. You mentioned bandages. Bandages would be a recurring purchase. I try my best never to compare jewelry stores to websites like Sephora. They make makeup and beauty products. I’m very fascinated by Sephora’s business model. If I buy a concealer, for example, and I love that concealer—some women get really attached to certain products if it’s the right fit for them—and I use it every single day for one year, I will probably run out. If I really like it, I’m going to buy it again. That’s why there’s a different mindset in the purchasing and buying state-of-mind for shoppers for luxury one-time purchases and recurring purchases. We try to lean into other sites, like a Burberry who sells a fashion product like a trench coat. If you wear it all the time, you’re not going buy the trench coat again; you’re going to buy something similar.
Sharon: Interesting. There’s so much to talk about when it comes to marketing this stuff.
Michael: Thank you.
Sharon: What do you see as the top three mistakes that those in the jewelry industry make on their websites or when you’re talking digital marketing?
Michael: I think the first mistake—and we’ve already talked about this ad nauseum, so I won’t spend too much time on it—is the crockpot methodology, thinking that it’s going to sell on its own. That’s unfortunately just not the case. You need to be thinking about it. You need to be updating things and creating new pages and working on your SEO. That’s probably one.
Number two has to do with imagery. Jewelry is the most visually impactful product that might be out there. I really can’t think of anything else, because what it comes down to is not the functionality of the jewelry. A bracelet, it’s on your wrist and it looks good, and that’s the functionality of it. Beyond that, maybe with earrings, how they move, but not really. It comes down to what it looks like. The end goal is I see it, I want it and I get it. I think a lot of times, these retailers don’t put enough time into finding the right products, taking their own product photos or having lifestyle, which is to say having models with the jewelry on their website. As an example of a product details page, when you’re shopping for a specific product, you can have, for example, a front view of the piece of jewelry, a side view of the piece of jewelry, maybe an up-close version if it has embossing or engraving or something like that, and then a photo on someone. You probably have a worker in your store; have them put the jewelry on. Snap it with a nice background. Now people can see how it wraps, how it looks around that person’s body. I think that that is absolutely a driving force in how you can sell, so that’s a good one too.
Sharon: That’s interesting. The positive would be that the websites that do have that—I see it more and more, where now it’s frustrating when you swipe and that’s it. There’s only one hero shot and that’s it.
Michael: If it’s just one thing, like a pendant, I want to see what the back of the pendant looks like. It’s going to be common that I have to see the back of the pendant. I want to see what the clasp looks like. Does it have a lobster clasp or some fancy clasp? Showing that information, like we talked about in the beginning, aids in that comfortability and that confidence when they fork over a couple of thousand dollars on this piece of jewelry. They need to feel confident it’s the right purchase.
Sharon: You want to see how it looks on somebody’s wrist, even if it’s just a plastic mannequin. How does it look on a neck? I don’t know if this is my last question because I could ask you questions all day long.
Michael: No, I appreciate it.
Sharon: What I noticed, and I find it a little concerning being a baby boomer who’s looked at marketing for a long time, it seems that everybody is moving onto Instagram. Every jeweler has moved to Instagram. They may have a Facebook page and they may have a Twitter—I don’t know what the others are—but it seems they’re skipping a website. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t need the website. I’m just putting everything on Instagram.” What are your thoughts about that?
Michael: Again, I might be biased—I’ll get that out of the way first. I will say this: I think the shopping tools on Instagram are absolutely marvelous. Full disclosure: I really dislike the company Facebook. I’m not a fan of them, but what they have done is make a whole suite of tools that go with Instagram. For example, if you do these collection photos where you show a bracelet, a necklace, earrings and a ring all on one page, you can tag those products. A lot of the time, they do rely on having a website as the hub, so they’re feeding the information in. I don’t know if the website’s time is heading toward the sunset and going fully Instagram is nigh, but I will say the tools on Instagram are incredible.
The other thing they do offer is fantastic retargeting. If you go on there and you like a product, as in double-tap it, they’re going to re-serve that to you, and they can get better at fine tuning it. You can tell that Instagram is serious about being a shopping tool because they’ve replaced one of the five icons on the bottom of the Instagram app to become a shopping bag so people can buy easier.
Sharon: Very smart. I also find it annoying, but understandable and smart, that every time I say, “Oh yeah, I like this,” “Well, we need your email address. Do you want to see anything else you want on your email address?” No, don’t give me the discount. I don’t want to give you my email address. Let me just see the product. But you can’t do that.
Michael: It’s all about that retargeting. It’s because it works, unfortunately.
Sharon: No, it does.
Michael: As someone who has worked in the industry for enough time, it can be very easy to get jaded about this kind of stuff and be like, “They’re just flooding my inbox with all this stuff.” I get it. If I was on the edge of buying this product and I don’t buy it, and you’re hitting me back with a discount code: “Hey, get 20 percent off on this thing,” well, I was going to buy it for 100 percent. Now it’s a little bit off, and now I can rationalize it better and get it. It does work.
Sharon: Absolutely, or they wouldn’t be doing it. I’m sure they’re looking at the data. Michael, thank you so much. This is so interesting, and I’m sure it’s given a lot of people ideas about what they need to go back and revisit or start doing. Thank you so much for being with us today.
Michael: Thank you so much, Sharon, for having me on. I really appreciate it. If you guys want to hear more about emerging tech and information regarding the jewelry industry, we have a podcast called In the Loupe. That’s on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whenever you want it. We have a lot more information about different merging tech. You can learn more about Punchmark general at Punchmark.com.
Sharon: Thanks. I do want to mention that you have a lot of very informative articles on your site.
Michael: I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Sharon: It’s definitely worth checking out.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Michael Burpoe
Michael Burpoe is Director of User Experience for Punchmark, a digital marketing agency that specializes in the jewelry industry. Michael created Punchmark’s UX team, which was assembled to take very specific initiatives toward fine-tuning tools and features, and improving the platform on both the front-end and back-end. Since early 2019, Michael has also headed up the strategy, planning, and execution behind Punchmark's Livestream Education program, the In The Loupe podcast, and the Punchmark Community on Facebook. Originally from Saranac Lake, NY, in Michael’s spare time you can find him practicing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or painting cityscapes.
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After working with jewelry brands of all sizes for the last several years, Michael Burpoe has learned a thing or two about the strategies that make jewelry businesses more successful online. As Director of User Experience for Punchmark, Michael has helped even the most hesitant jewelers invest in their websites and reap the rewards of a fine-tuned digital marketing strategy. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to explain why selling jewelry online is only going to become more common; how to make customers feel comfortable buying luxury items online; and how jewelry companies can use digital marketing tricks to increase sales. Read the episode transcript here.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Michael Burpoe with Punchmark. Michael is the Director of User Experience for this marketing agency, which specializes in creating effective and compelling websites for the jewelry industry. Today, Michael will talk with us about his journey into the world of jewelry. He’ll also share with us some of the secrets about what it takes to create an effective website, one that drives revenue. Michael, welcome to the program.
Michael: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.
Sharon: We’re so glad to have you. How did you get into the jewelry industry? I’m sure that’s not where you started out when you decided to take this path.
Michael: Yeah, great question. The starting point is, I went to school for design. I went to the Rochester Institute of Technology, which is called RIT, in Rochester, New York, and while I was there I was studying graphic design. I knew I wanted to study user experience. For people who aren’t fully aware, that’s the overall shopping ease when it comes to websites. It can extend beyond that, but that’s where I was most focused. While I was doing a lot of application design and things that were related to e-commerce, I was scouted by this guy, Daniel Sirois, who is my CPO at Punchmark. He hired me on, and I’ve since found myself in a niche when it comes to e-commerce strategy and web design. I now am Director of User Experience at Punchmark. I lead our dev team as well as the overall production strategy when it comes to that.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. I’m so surprised to hear you say you went to RIT because that’s a heavy design school. All kinds of art jewelers come out of there.
Michael: Yeah, it has a major, I think, in metal design as well as jewelry design. What’s crazy is they do these installation pieces. I’m sure you’re already aware of these pieces that almost orbit around the head, these really dynamic pieces. It might be one of the only master’s programs in the U.S. for jewelry design. These pieces are absolutely stunning. They almost install around the head and then have a singular earring. It’s all about how the piece is presented. It’s very fascinating. I went to a couple of their shows, unbeknownst to me that I end up in the jewelry industry in the end.
Sharon: I guess I thought you’d say you studied computer science. You were saying e-commerce.
Michael: Yeah.
Sharon: What does Punchmark do, and why the name Punchmark for the company?
Michael: The original idea behind Punchmark, as it’s been told to me by the founders, is that a coin is just metal until it is punched with the original insignia that denotes its value. For example, a quarter is made of the same type of material as a dime; it’s just a punch that makes the difference. That’s how we see ourselves in bringing brands and businesses to life: everybody starts out, more or less, on the same footing. It’s what you add to the process that adds the value.
We try to our best to stay ahead of the cutting edge and see where the ball is going, so that way we can lead our leaders. We were one of the first people to be doing serious e-commerce websites for the jewelry industry. Now, with a lot of things shifting toward e-commerce in addition to brick and mortar, what we call an omnichannel solution has had a definite, huge rise in popularity. It’s really exciting to be a part of.
Sharon: I really like that. That’s an interesting concept. It’s all the same; it’s just what size, which President is on the face. We talked a little about this, but tell us more about the transition you’re seeing with jewelers getting into the e-commerce space.
Michael: Absolutely. Whenever people ask me about the shift towards e-commerce—obviously Covid had a huge impact on the jewelry industry, especially right in March 2020, the reason being that prior to those events, the vast majority of sales were done inside of brick-and-mortar stores. When I refer to jewelers, I’m referring to jewelry retailers. We also work with vendors and production companies and technology companies, but specifically jewelry retailers. They were doing so much of their business in their stores. When their stores were forced to close at that time, there was this real uncertainty about what they should be doing. I hate to say I told you so, so I won’t, but I will say that we’ve been constantly pushing people as much as possible to take their online presence seriously. One of the things we are always saying is that your online store should be considered just as important or require as much time as any of your brick-and-mortar stores. Some of our retailers, they have three brick-and-mortar stores, and their website should their fourth. That’s how we see it, and that’s because it takes a lot of work and a lot of extra stuff.
Sharon: That’s a great way to look at it. It does; it takes a lot of nurturing, a lot of care and feeding to get it right.
Michael: Absolutely.
Sharon: I’m thinking about the dealers, maybe not so much the retailers that I’ve talked with. I remember an antique jewelry dealer telling me they had resisted for a long time even doing a website—this was years ago—and the first online sale they made was one of the largest sales they ever made. I know there’s a lot of talk about, “Well, everybody has to touch and feel,” but I think a lot of people are getting past that. What do you think?
Michael: I think it comes down to who the target customers are. What you just mentioned, being loath to adapt to these online businesses, it’s very understandable. Tech is constantly changing, constantly evolving, and it can be extremely overwhelming to get into. That said, it’s like learning a language. Once you learn, you learn how to learn, and then you learn how to adapt and pick up new things. That online presence, what we’re seeing is—say you’re a 60-year-old or 70-year-old retail jeweler. Your shoppers are not all 60 to 70-year-old shoppers. A lot of the target consumers are going to be younger.
Now millennials are buying engagement rings and jewelry in general. Gen Z is starting to have enough money that they can start shopping. These generations and Gen X as well are very tech fluent, extremely tech fluent. Speaking for myself as a millennial, I was brought up with a computer. I have had the internet as a part of my life for as long as I can remember, so the idea of me spending $200, $300, $400 online for a product that I have not touched is not as foreign to me as some retailers seem to assume because it’s true for them. We’re seeing that a lot of shoppers that are coming through are first-time jewelry shoppers, first-time ring buyers.
We run a podcast; we sometimes interview consumers for engagement ring buyers, and we’re finding that people love the idea of sitting home alone. It’s the middle of the night; their significant other might be in bed, and they’re shopping online, finding information, getting an idea of what that engagement ring should look like. Whereas before, they walk into a store to buy that engagement ring, and it is intimidating because the store owner is—not breathing down your neck, but very interested. Some people just have social anxiety, and they don’t want to talk to anybody. The idea of having all that information in front of them is very attractive to them.
Sharon: That’s really true. You mentioned two things I want to follow up on. First of all, you mentioned your podcast called In the Loupe, which is a great name; I love it.
Michael: A jeweler’s loupe, yep.
Sharon: Tell us a little bit about that.
Michael: Sure. In the Loupe actually started as a different podcast called the Jeweler Survival Kit. This launched in March 2020. Like I mentioned before, there was a lot of uncertainty when it came to how the pandemic was going to impact these businesses. There was all this silence from the movers and the shakers in the jewelry industry, and we decided to come through and be like, “Alright, here’s how you do it. You should cash up your inventory by selling your unwanted products, selling them at a discount or doing Facebook sales and stuff like that.” As we did a couple of episodes of it, we realized that Coronavirus wasn’t going to go away in one month or two months. We decided to shift to In the Loupe and make it more of a podcast along the lines of educating and advocating. So, not just telling people how things worked, but also saying, “You should be doing this about emerging technologies in the e-commerce space.” We talk about things like SEO, digital marketing, selling online, stuff like that. It’s since evolved into a comprehensive look at the jewelry industry, and it’s been a lot of fun to be a part of.
Sharon: It sounds very interesting and necessary, but I could also visualize a lot of jewelers, retailers, manufacturers shutting it off and saying, “Forget it.”
Michael: Yes, we started it like, “Alright, we’ve told you a million times that you should get SEO, which is search engine optimization. It’s how you rank higher in Google. Well, we’re going to tell you how it works.” We talk about Google and how it works, hoping that even if they don’t buy SEO with us, they start to think, “Maybe I should get SEO.”
What we’ve learned is that trepidation and hesitancy towards these techniques, that doesn’t go away in one day or one week or one month; it’s a long-term process. I see myself as a steward for the industry in that if I do my job right with In the Loupe, which is a partnership with the Smithee Group, who we coproduce it with—if I do my job right, fewer jewelry stores will fall upon hard times in this really uncertain state. More jewelry stores will adapt and be ahead of the curve instead of being behind the curve, which the jewelry industry historically has always been.
Sharon: Do you have people who have worked in the jewelry industry on your team? The reason I ask because I can see prospects pushing back and saying, “What do you know about it?”
Michael: We have a GIA-certified gemologist as our CEO. He actually spent a considerable amount of time in the jewelry industry working at a jewelry store. That’s how he got his founding. Also, our CTO spent a considerable amount of time in the jewelry industry—
Sharon: CTO, you’ll need to explain it. Go ahead.
Michael: CTO is Chief Technology Officer. The Cockerham brothers, they spent many years in the jewelry industry. They grew up at a jewelry store and have done many trips to Antwerp, Belgium for different buying trips. The reason why we got into jewelry is because we have roots in the jewelry industry and we can relate to these jewelers on a deeper basis.
Sharon: First of all, you said something and then we jumped about. You said something about “we’re going to tell you how to do it.” Could you just repeat that and then stop?
Michael: Yeah. We’re going to tell you how to do it.
Sharon: What you’ve told me about your team, it sounds like you have deep jewelry experience on your team. Do you find that prospective clients breathe a sigh of relief when you say that?
Michael: It depends. Punchmark was founded in 2008. We’ve been in the jewelry industry for quite a while, and we have a history in the jewelry industry and have made a name for ourselves. We call ourselves the largest online provider for jewelry websites. We have almost 500 clients, and we can see the statistics that are inside our network. I’ve seen people be, again, loath or behind the curve when it comes to pushing forward with this emerging tech, but at the same time, we’ve also taken jewelers who are very slow to adapt and turned them into making frequent sales online. It only seems impossible before you start.
Sharon: That’s great. I have to remember that it only seems impossible before you start. I remember a lot that my father taught me, but one thing that always sticks in my mind and is very motivating is that he would say, “All beginnings are hard.”
Michael: Yes. I also think anything that’s worthwhile in business doesn’t come out of the box, ready to rock and roll. There is some setup. It does require a little bit of hard work, and it requires some communication. You need to be on your email and, like I said before, it needs to be seen as a significant branch of your business if you want it to be a significant part of your business. The thought of, “Oh, I’m just going to load it up with some images and they’re going to sell,” well, in reverse, let’s think about it yourself. Would you buy a piece a jewelry if you have a photo of this necklace that’s going for $1,000, and you took a photo through the display box window, and it’s kind of grainy and the details about it are, “This necklace has 14-karat gold and it’s $1,000.” Well, that seems crazy. I would never buy something with that little information, because who knows? It could be a scam. How do I know the details are there? Also, it doesn’t look good.
That’s why we’re always advocating through In the Loupe saying, “If you want to sell, you almost need to market to yourself.” What would you look for in this jewelry? For me, at least, I want good photos, lots of details. I want to know everything about the piece of jewelry. I want to be assured that if I’m going to buy a $1,000 bracelet or watch or whatever have you that I am not going to get scammed. It’s real; it’s available, and I need to be assured about that.
Sharon: It sounds like you are marketing to yourself. As director with user experience, you really are looking at what’s going to build that trust in terms of, “this isn’t a scam.” Let me ask you this: somebody we had on the podcast, a dealer, said they thought the most important thing when it comes to user experience is the return policy. What do you think about that?
Michael: Absolutely. Return policies, warranties, shipping information, data policies, all of those accoutrements for an online sale, all of that information is what comes in for the trust factor. We can’t get around it: jewelry is a luxury good. You can even think about a wallet or a pocketbook; these are all luxury items. When it comes to that kind of stuff, you can do without it. That’s the nature of luxury; it’s a want, not a need, but what ends up happening to it is that the other factors are just as important. If I buy this watch and it breaks the first day, am I SOL or am I going to be able to come back and have it refurbished? If I need a new battery, can I come in for that? If it gets shipped to me and it gets lost in the mail, am I out $1,000? All of those things are the trust.
At least with millennials and Gen Z, we’re finding that they are so tech fluent that they know how to comparison shop much better. If they’re not shopping at your store, if they see that there’s no information and it feels like a risk, they can easily comparison shop and find the exact same product or a similar one somewhere else. That’s the battle you’re always going against. You want to have all of the checks in your box as much as possible.
Sharon: I think that’s such an important point, no matter what industry. If somebody is shopping for something, whether it’s a service or whatever, and they go to one website and there’s no information or it takes a long time to load, they’re gone. That’s it; they’re on to the better website.
Michael: We see that all the time with things like bounce rate. That’s the rate of someone visiting your website and then leaving within, I think, 10 seconds. That means you need to load quickly. You also need to have eye-catching imagery and what we call “above the fold,” which is the information that loads that’s visible on the screen first.
At lot of times, shoppers, they don’t even know what they want when they start shopping. They start out as an open shopper. They’re going in and they know they need to buy something for their significant other, and they know they like fancy jewelry. Well, they don’t know if they want a hoop earring or a stud; they don’t know that answer. It’s up to you to convince them and show them the way so they can shop without feeling stupid or intimidated. I think that also has to come into the above the fold information.
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About Pam Levine
Pam Levine is the CEO and Brand Experience Expert of Levine Luxury Branding, a boutique agency that develops inspiring brands, marketing and retail environments for luxury products. Pam began her career as a jeweler at Cartier and brings the same focus on detail to the designers, brands, retailers and licenses she works with.
Pam’s practice focuses on delivering substantial financial results through brand building and repositioning, new product and service innovation, visual and sensory merchandising and creative execution across multi-media platforms. She orchestrates a customer/visitor experience that conveys a distinctive and memorable impression at every touch-point, from the environment to staff interactions, to marketing communications and more.
Known as a “curator of remarkable minds” Pam leads a cross-disciplinary team of marketing professionals and designers providing positioning strategies, retail assessments, store environments, packaging, display, collateral, web content and design, social media, corporate presentations and merchandising solutions.
A respected expert and speaker on consumer experience and luxury marketing, Pam is a sought out tastemaker, known for adding the special touches that deliver a high impact, distinctive brand experience. Speaking engagements include Retail and Consumer Trends: International Retail Design Summit (Germany), Luxury Marketing Council, Globalshop, JCK Las Vegas Show and The Couture Show.
Pam is an active member of RDI-Retail Design Institute, WJA Woman’s Jewelry Association and MAD-Museum of Arts and Design, Loot Jewelry Show committee. She has served as the director of WAM, Woman as Mentors, NYC, and has been an adjunct professor of jewelry design, marketing and merchandising at the FIT- Fashion Institute of Technology.
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Marketing luxury goods is a fascinating endeavor that combines design, language and psychology. Few people know this field as well as Pam Levine, founder of Levine Luxury Branding. Starting as a bench jeweler for Cartier, Pam has forged her own path in the luxury space. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she helps her clients define their brands; why old-school relationships with customers will always win over new-school marketing fads; and how to create jewelry displays that encourage customers to buy your work. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Pam Levine, founder and CEO of Levine Luxury Branding. In addition to having experience as a bench jeweler, Pam has a broad range of experience in designing customized display cabinets and cases. More importantly, she is a student of the psychology of luxury merchandising. Today, Levine Luxury Branding works with high-end companies to develop a brand that occupies top-of-mind awareness in the luxury consumer’s mind. We’ll hear more about her jewelry journey and about the psychology of branding today. Pam, welcome to the program.
Pam: Thank you so much, Sharon. It’s such a pleasure to be here. Maybe we could give a little shout-out to Bonnie Levine for introducing us.
Sharon: Yes, Bonnie Levine, who’s on the board of Art Jewelry Forum and does a tremendous amount for them in terms of choosing emerging designers and administering several of those programs, which is a full-time job in and of itself. Pam, tell us about your jewelry journey. You have such an interesting background.
Pam: Thank you. I love the word journey because I guess we’re still all in it. I grew up in a creative family, I would say. My father was an architect and furniture designer. He designed our home, and my mother was a sculptor. Both of them did many art projects together. They were both watercolor artists. I really was, from the womb, indoctrinated into a creative environment. I’m lucky enough to have learned how to appreciate materials, textures, form. They taught me how to see. From then on, anything creative, growing up in a creative home was like a part of my body and how I thought. I took a little jewelry class when I was in high school and never really thought there was a whole industry behind it. Then I ended up going to college and taking some jewelry classes. Eventually, I decided I loved working in metal. When I left school, I worked in the Faber Gallery, which at the time was the only jewelry gallery, I think, in the country that was promoting fine art jewelers.
Sharon: That’s the Faber Gallery?
Pam: The Faber Gallery. It was on 47th Street and now it’s on 53rd Street. I moved with them. Through there I met an engraver who introduced me to Cartier. They were looking for a woman jeweler to fill a quota, and I became one of the first jewelers on the benches in their 18-karat gold department and worked there. It was a fantastic opportunity and experience to be trained by master jewelers. Then I moved into product development at Cartier.
I eventually left to become a model maker for different jewelers around the city as I put my own line together. I had my own jewelry collection that I sold through museums, Bergdorf Goodman’s, Saks Fifth Avenue, Nordstrom and a lot of museum shops. Then I was hired into the industry in the late 80s to become a creative director for a company that was a mass merchandiser of jewelry. At the time, I also accepted a job teaching at Fashion Institute of Technology in the design and fabrication of jewelry. They were close to each other. Since they were literally blocks away, and I decided if I was going to take a real job, I wanted to also be able to take the teaching job, so I worked them both. That job itself, the charge there was to hire a team of designers, oversee the product merchandising. What also came with that was developing programs for stores.
That’s what got me involved in the retail side. What really started my whole journey, or stopped my jewelry journey in a way, was this intrigue with how do people make decisions about products that are stuck behind glass, that you can’t touch, that you have to ask a salesperson in order to access? What I learned from designing displays and getting involved with these programs was that jewelry could be a lot more accessible through the design of the merchandising, how it was presented, by creating distinction and highlighting and dimension. It was design as well as strategy and understanding how people access and think about products on a sensory level and somewhat unconsciously. It was also about what the experience of shopping for jewelry or products that are stuck behind glass is like, and that’s continued.
I left that position after about five years and went out on my own. I started working with other companies, more manufacturers in the industry to help them develop a new brand, market a new product or put a presentation together. One of my specialties was designing display systems. I designed Gordon Taylor’s display; I redid their watch display system. That was for all different brands.
I also have designed many, many customized systems for different companies, designers and retailers. I moved more into understanding the retail mindset because I started working with more retailers. That was in the mid-90s, when I was speaking at the couture shows and industry shows. I really loved the idea of working again with designers or brands behind the scenes, the marketers that were bringing a product to market as well as the retailers. What happened in retail with the independent stores in the early to mid-90s was they were starting to sell designers, David Yurman and all the big names we know today, so there was a real conflict between, “How do we balance out the retail brand with all the other brands we have?” That’s where I came in. It was a combination of creating a display system. For me, that is the most important part; it’s like the product of the store because it’s where you want your customers’ focus to be. That’s how I started the other part of what I’ll call my retail design journey. I apply a lot of psychology to that as well. When I started working with stores, I got involved in marketing, all sorts of retail programs, ways to draw people through a whole store, putting together scavenger hunts and special events and all sorts of ways to intrigue, attract, add surprise and delight to that customer’s experience.
Sharon: Do you have clients who come to you from the ground up, like, “O.K., how do we develop this brand?”
Pam: Those are my most favorite, when we get to do the whole package. The branding process that we do at Levin Luxury Branding starts with understanding the foundation, the distinction, the identity of the brand. Many designers, especially in the jewelry realm, believe that their product—and it often it is—is the distinct voice of the brand. You need to put a voice and a language to it, especially today, not that you never needed to. You need to establish the positioning statement and understand what your unique distinction is and how you can communicate that. Many people don’t believe the store is just the brick and mortar anymore. It’s not always, “Oh, this is the store.” The customer can shop in many different ways, so it’s not just about the brick and mortar; it’s tying it all together, and the way to tie it together is to start with a clear understanding and clever language that sets you apart.
That then brings the client into almost developing an advertising campaign. Today it’s a big challenge because so much of this is DIY. We do it ourselves. We have the ability to post on Instagram and Facebook and Tik Tok and tell stories. Many people are naturally good at it, and others need to go through the branding process. If you’re building a store and starting there, whichever touchpoint you’re going to start with, the journey is much easier and the development or expansion of the brand is much easier once you have a clear understanding of who you are and how you are going to describe that. For some people, it might be all about joy, or it might be all about the colored stones. There are so many ways to focus this. Many jewelers have similar stories, which is why it’s important to create a look and a feel and a distinction. Once you have that, then you have the basis for creating the language and messaging throughout your showcase straight onto Instagram, or whichever vehicle you’re using, as well as advertising. We cover all of that.
Sharon: In my experience, call them creative types, makers, jewelers, whatever, they are very good at what they do, but they haven’t had business training and they don’t understand. If somebody says, “O.K., I have a bunch of jewelry here and I have things in all different lines,” where should they start? What questions should they be asking in terms of developing the positioning and creating a brand?
Pam: I think that the main questions are who is buying it, who’s the customer, why does it matter, why buy this jewelry. These are tough questions to ask.
Sharon: Very, very tough questions.
Pam: How can we present it? What can I do? What is the distinction? What is my story? Some of it is bullet pointing, letting all the words come out. I think this is a bit of a challenge for me as well because I didn’t come out of a digital marketing background; I’m a little old school. Today is a real mix of traditional and nontraditional. I think the biggest challenge is that one can’t ignore the beauty and the value of being able to post on social media because it’s so immediate. Especially Gen X and Gen Z, this is where they are shopping and where we’re engaging them. Selling jewelry or any product starts with engagement and relationships. It’s those questions that I think are the most important. Why, who, where are you selling from and what’s unique about us.
Sharon: Those are critical questions and very difficult questions. Those questions are so difficult whether you’re marketing online or offline. To me, that’s the crux of it. You have to start there.
Pam: Yes. If you’d like, I can show you a tree chart I use. The bottom of it shows the roots. There I have digital strategy, your engagement, your research. The other thing is that research is a very helpful tool, and we have this world at our fingertips. Some of it is studying and understanding how other people are languaging. Are they speaking in the first voice? Are they speaking in the third tone? How are others doing it. If they’re going to zig, you want to zag, go a little differently. Is there a vision the person who’s leading the company has? Is there innovation here? Research and trends are where you want to start, so you understand where you fit into the playing field of the market.
Today, we’ve got technology and user experience and retail experience and all these other catchwords, but the big one is audience, understanding who you’re talking to. It can be as simple as sitting down with your best customers or your friends and having conversations with them and listening to their reactions. It’s much more organic today. My struggle is that people come to me for all this. I have strategists and writers, and there are times when I still believe that is the best way to go. Anything that’s new, we jump on the bandwagon; we did it when we first had billboards and when we first went on radio, when anything becomes accessible. Now with media, so much is accessible. Bottom line, it’s all about making a plan, starting with understanding your identity and then deciding what is going to be the best route for you to follow. Also, how much can you handle if you would still like to spend the bulk of your time designing and making and staying true to yourself? I’m speaking to the jewelry designer and the bench jeweler who’s doing it all themselves. It’s a huge amount of pressure for a designer to do it themselves, so we do help them with that.
There are also some wonderful online digital courses. I think digital marketing, which is something I’m studying myself now, is a different mindset. It’s really about putting the customer first. It used to be about transaction and product, and now it’s about putting the customer first. How can we speak to them in a language that is riveting to them, in a way that connects with them? It’s about the relationship, and that has never changed.
The thing I also love about jewelry is that it’s such an intimate product. It goes on your body. Jewelry is so beautiful, no matter how it’s made, no matter what it’s made out of. It’s become a real form of self-expression. The amount of meaning in this product is more than anything we put on our body, unless maybe it’s a beautiful couture dress. It’s a very personal experience. That’s why the relationship the independent jeweler forms with their buyer or collector is key. That can be done virtually as long as you understand and become comfortable with this new mindset of understanding who you customer is. A luxury customer, even if they’re accessing things online, they’re still going to need high-touch experience. I get intimidated by all of these touchpoints, all of these channels with our customers myself. I’m learning it as well, but I keep coming back to it. If we have a plan; if we don’t just throw it out there and do it all at once; if we really understand our design and our look—
Sharon: Is it branded? Does it fall within the brand?
Pam: Exactly. Once you have that foundation, then you move to the fun part, the design and the expression and the logos and all of that. I was speaking to a very close friend who’s a designer, a retail architect, and design has become democratized. Photography has become democratized. Everything is at the tip of our fingers. It doesn’t mean we understand it all or are experts, but we become the designer. I think people hit a point, especially if they haven’t had the business background or the marketing background—what’s wonderful today is there are a lot of young people out there who have grown up more natively with the virtual world.
There’s somebody named Liz Cantor who teaches a fabulous course on Instagram to independent designers. You can join a small society she has that’s very reasonable on a monthly basis. It’s a fantastic how-to. A lot of it is the mindset. It walks you through how you need good photographs and other pieces to it. There’s another woman named Kathleen Cutler who is a wonderful high-end sales expert. She teaches people how to digitally communicate and virtually sell, how to connect with your best clients, what kind of language to use, how to get comfortable emailing, all of that. These are the people I look up to, my young leaders, because that’s the future of marketing in the industry in many ways.
On my own, I am partnering with Tobias Harris. That’s his name. He comes out of architectural and retail design agencies. Together, we are merging design with branding. We are being approached by different architects; their clients are coming to them and saying, “Well, now I want to integrate technology,” or “I want to offer a customized kiosk,” or whatever it is, not necessarily in the jewelry world. We’re finding that they never really figured out who they are or what their distinction is. We’re offering programs on how to do this for them or take them through developing it themselves.
Sharon: You said a couple of things. First of all, since the podcast is audio only, I’d love to post the tree chart, and we can have links to these other people. I think since we’re both of a certain age, I don’t want to knock—you can’t just say you’re a digital native, because I have people around me who are whizzes with this, but it’s more than a matter of just throwing things up on Instagram. You have to have what you’re saying, a strategy. You have to have the foundation, the background that you and I have. What are the questions, what’s the plan, what’s the positioning, who are you?
Pam: When I work with my strategists, my writers—and I have two brilliant ones—it is a fun thing to do. Usually what we do is put together a visual and a verbal. We do the positioning first, and it’s based on who they are, deep interviews, and exploring the joy and the inspirations and all of the wonderful things that drive them to create these amazing pieces or whatever their product is. Some of them are more commercial; I’ve done a lot of programs for the Sterlings and the Kay Jewelers and the Jareds of world, but at the end of the day, it’s connecting with your customer. I always say the context is as important as the content. The context is the environment, whether it’s on your website or whether it’s on Instagram. How are you presenting? Because anything that you present is a representation of your brand and has impact.
Sharon: I think that’s really important. I also want to emphasize that what you’re saying is not just for commercial jewelers, but it can be for emerging artists, art jewelers. At some point, you’re going to say, “O.K., I’ve gone to every gallery in the country 14 times. I want to grow, and I’ve got to be able to make a case for that or show how I’m different and why they might want to look at me.”
Pam: Full disclosure, I’m looking at a digital program now that will show how to set up a jewelry case, how to merchandise different showcases. Different jewelry cases, traditionally around the diamond, showcase differently. There are certain products you put further away, the more expensive product in the showcase, and maybe you show fewer. There are ways of anchoring products. This is real visual merchandising as well as highlighting and understanding how people perceive and read a showcase. You don’t want it to look like a bazaar. Our tendency is to show as much as we can. The understanding, though—and this is where the psychology comes in—is how people process, especially when somebody is speaking to them.
The other side is that there’s some amazing technology out now that allows us to shop in a store on our own, to access information through barcodes and different things when we can’t touch it. By the end of the day, it is the relationship; it is why we go into the store. We want to learn and understand and touch and feel and try on, and that’s the thing that’s very hard to do. Yes, you can have a digital hand and try the jewelry on like Warby Parker glasses, but there’s something different about that relationship. That’s why if you took everything away and you have a strong relationship with somebody who loves your jewelry, that is something to nurture. That’s old school. That’s traditional, but at the end of the day, that’s where the heart of the matter is.
Sharon: It is, yes. First of all, what you said about the teaching or the training or the thought process—how do you talk to people at a tradeshow? I’m sure there are people who are saying, “I don’t need to know that. I’m an antique jewelry dealer,” but you have to be able to connect with somebody looking at it. What would you say are the top three things to consider when you’re displaying something? What would you say?
Pam: I should bounce back to another answer to a question you asked. What is most important underneath all this is authenticity in your position and in your language, because people pick it up very quickly. If you’re copying somebody else, you know it; we just sense it. I think authenticity is the success of many independent jewelry designers and jewelers.
Sharon: Authenticity—I would say you have to be able to support your brand. You can’t just pick verbiage out of a hat. You have to be able to support it.
Pam: All this identity stuff is never easy, whether we’re trying to figure out—we go through this in different parts of our lives. When you work with a consultant like myself or my team, it gives you the ability to stand back. You have an outside opinion. It’s very hard to do. Often, it’s difficult to do it yourself. That’s why we’re looking into different how-to’s to offer more training.
Sharon: And I think that’s brilliant.
Pam: I’m sorry, you asked me—
Sharon: I don’t want to form it in a negative way, but I want to ask—you probably walk into a store and say, “They should have put this.’’ What are the biggest mistakes you see?
Pam: Overcrowding a showcase, poor displays and warrant systems. To me, with the display case, like any other part of the sale, you have to show respect to your customer, especially in jewelry. We expect to come in and see beautiful jewelry, beautifully lit. Something that isn’t fresh and new, especially in this day and age—whether you’re doing a tradeshow or you have a high-end store, it’s got to be up to date. The other opportunity is signage. Not just the name, but quotes, a beautiful line from a poem; “something beautiful is within reach,” something that is going to capture attention in the case. Not too much; I’m not a big proponent of props and other things. Height and dimension add a lot to the experience. Really, less is more. You want to tell a story in that case so people can home in on that collection. If you have too much of everything without certain anchor pieces or bolder pieces, even pieces that might be very, very high-end and may not be your main sellers, you want to anchor it with something that’s going to be bold enough to attract attention and then tell the story around it.
I’m often disappointed because they’re white displays. There’s so much more that can be done. I’m not saying that isn’t a fantastic color for reflecting diamond light and other things, but I would say light is important for everything. I’m also thinking windows and presentations. There’s such an opportunity to intrigue people with how you present the product. Today, so many designers have their own displays, which is useful because we are so brand-oriented, especially everybody of the younger generation. It helps us to understand, to put a name to something. We can build that brand out with our colorations and look and feel through other media. The store is just one touchpoint. I say take the walls down and think of your other ways of communicating with your customer: Facebook advertising, traditional and non-traditional, email marketing, so people make that connection to the consistency. Your consistency can be one of two things. It could be one piece that represents your brand. It could be your logo, your voice, a tagline, something that helps you be distinctive. All those words alone, I should say, however, is not branding.
Sharon: We could talk forever about this. Pam, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. It’s been a pleasure.
Pam: Thank you. I hope I’ve answered all of your questions.
Sharon: You absolutely did.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kent Raible
Master goldsmith and jewelry designer Kent Raible first started working metal in 1973 in a high school jewelry class, and has since become one of the leading studio goldsmiths in the country. Largely self-taught, Kent sought out talented teachers over the years to learn different aspects of jewelry making, and also went abroad in the 1980s for two years of study in Germany. He always worked in his own studio, never apprenticed under a master, and over time developed a unique style of fabrication using eighteen karat gold, fabulous colored gemstones, and the ancient technique of granulation.
His work has won many national and international awards, and has been featured in two
important national exhibitions. The major neckpiece named Floating City is part of the
permanent collection of the Renwick Gallery of the Smithsonian’s American Art Museum, and his object called Pregnant Chalice was included in The Art of Gold, a survey of the work of eighty contemporary American studio goldsmiths that toured the country throughout 2005.
Since the 1980s, Kent has also been teaching his craft through workshops at various institutions such as the Penland school of Arts and Crafts in South Carolina and the Revere Academy in San Francisco, California.
Kent currently resides in Washington state with his wife and partner, Lynn.
Additional Links:
Photos:
Captured Universe AJDC Theme project Tension
Cosmic Clam Ring 2004 AJDC Theme project Hidden Treasure
Floating City 1991 Permanent Collection American Art Museum, Smithsonian
Floating City Closeup
Crystal Sky City 2020 AJDC Theme project Secret Garden
Floating City 2002
From the Deep Side view showing clasp
From the Deep 2015 Saul Bell Award 1st place winner
Transcript:
Kent Raible is living proof of the adage that it takes 10,000 hours to master a skill. He’s spent nearly all his life honing his talents as an award-winning goldsmith, favoring ancient techniques and creating jewelry that inspires him rather than jewelry that’s trendy. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he learned his skills, why his wife and business partner Lynn was crucial for the development of his business, and why he encourages young jewelers to keep practicing their craft even when pieces don’t turn out as expected. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is award-winning goldsmith Kent Raible. Kent has been a goldsmith for 50 years. In addition to compiling a roster of awards, he occupies several unique niches. He’s a master in the ancient art of granulation and is known throughout the industry for the classes he holds both in person and online. We’ll hear more about his jewelry journey today. Kent, welcome to the program.
Kent: Well, thank you, Sharon. I am very happy to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you creative as a child? Is this something that everybody expected of you, what you’re doing today?
Kent: Well, it was all kind of serendipitous events that brought me through this journey, but I was raised in a family of artists. Both my parents were painters. My father made his living from teaching art at the junior college level in Marin County, California, which is where I grew up. My mother was also a painter. They met in art school at the California College of Arts and Crafts, at the time, in Oakland, California. They were both Bohemian types, and they were very open-minded and were always supportive of anything creative that I might want do as I was growing up, and the same with my one sister. She went on to become a very successful doctor. Both the kids went on separate paths, but they were very supportive in whatever we chose to do.
From an early age, I was very aware that I had abilities that other people didn’t have, musically and artistically, and my parents were always open to me becoming a musician or an artist. There was never any question that that was a possibility, because I grew up in a situation where there were successful artists all around me. My dad taught for many years, and some of his students went on to become very successful artists. I got to meet them and see their workshops. Some of them were painters; some of them were sculptors. My dad had a very broad base of experience in crafts and in art. He actually dabbled in jewelry and gave me his first set of jewelry tools, which was a ring mandrel and a soft frame, which I still use today, and some of the basic tools he got while he was doing his class at the College of Arts and Crafts in the 50s or maybe even in the 40s.
I took my first jewelry class in high school at the behest of my girlfriend. She said, “Kent, take a class with me.” I said, “Oh, I don’t know. Jewelry wearing, you know.” My first jewelry teacher was a former student of my father. He was teaching the high school jewelry class and we hit it off. I was a sophomore; I was 15 when I took my first class. By my senior year, I was taking two periods of jewelry a day as my electives, one before lunch and one after lunch, and I worked through lunch. I was getting three hours a day. I was a lab assistant, so I was in the back room there, and I could do pretty much whatever I wanted. I was having a blast.
Then I went on to the college at Marin, which is where my dad was an art professor. He had just hired a young guy named Glenn Miller. He just passed recently. This was 50 years ago, so this is all ancient history, but Glenn Miller—he wasn’t a jeweler himself; he was more of a sculptor. But he was very much involved in getting things right, craftsmanship, design and integration of clasps and things that went into design rather than just as an add-on. These were concepts he was hammering into me early on, and that’s how I started.
I had many interests as a young person. I wanted to be a rock star. I’ve been playing guitar longer than I’ve been making jewelry. I’m pretty good at that, but I didn’t devote my life to that as much as I have to making jewelry. At some point in my early twenties, I made the big decision to make that my livelihood. I was maybe 19 or 20 and I decided to go for it, so I started doing craft shows. It was hard to put my work out there; that was really the hardest thing. Making it and designing and having fun making things was easy, but when it came to stepping out into the world, because I was very shy, that was the hard part for me. I struggled with that for a number of years. I won my first national award at the age of 22 with the National Sterling Silversmith’s Guild of America Annual Competition for College-Level Silver Design. I made a sculptural piece; I actually have it here, but since this isn’t usual, I’m not going to pull it out.
Sharon: We’ll post a picture if you’d like.
Kent: You can post pictures. It was a silver waterpipe. I was taking hollow ware and bringing it into the 20th century, basically making a silver bong. That won me a national award. At that point, at 21, 22, I thought, “Well, I could actually do this.” I was getting a lot of support from my family and from my teachers. Then I got my first teaching job at the College of Marin, teaching in adult ed. I didn’t have a college degree, but I could teach in adult education. I started teaching at the age of about 23, 24, teaching casting and basic jewelry techniques. I hadn’t really gotten into granulation at that point, but I was very adept at fabrication, soldering and casting, so that’s what I taught my students. That gave me a foothold into the realm of teaching, which I have done my whole career. Not in a big way; I’m teaching more now than I probably ever have, but that’s how I got started in the teaching realm.
There are a couple of major things that happened in my life that made the biggest differences to my career. The first was in 1982; I went to Germany. My girlfriend broke up with me and I was devastated, so I sold all my possessions to raise money. I took my bicycle and started riding from Frankfurt, Germany. The first place I went, of course, was Idar-Oberstein, which is a good, long, one-day ride from Frankfurt. I went there and looked at all the gem museums; I visited stonecutters and things like that. From there, I rode through the Black Forest down to Pforzheim and went to the Schmuckmuseum, the jewelry museum in Pforzheim. I puttered around for about four or five months, but serendipitously, right before I left from America with my bike, I met a couple of goldsmiths who were visiting from Germany. They said, “Why, don’t you come see us when you’re here if you’re in our area?” When it started to rain and I’d ridden through seven or eight countries, I was in France and the weather just turned bad; it was October. So, I called them and they picked me up. They had a little Volkswagen Bug, and I stuck my bike on the top and they drove me to their place in Stuttgart. They were very kind to me. They let me stay with them for six weeks. In the process of that period, they invited me to come check out the school where they had studied, which is in a little town called Schwäbisch Gmünd of about 60,000 people.
Sharon: Would you repeat that?
Kent: Yeah, Schwäbisch Gmünd. It’s about 50 kilometers east of Stuttgart, a beautiful location in the hills. The hochschule there, which is basically a state-run trade school, had been teaching jewelry there for 250 years or something. They were in the process of phasing out the jewelry program, but they introduced me to the head instructor who could speak English because I had very little German. He introduced me to the goldsmithing teacher who didn’t speak any English, and he invited me to stay as a guest. So, it was a free year of education. I had only to buy health insurance. That was it, $30 or month or something. That was my only cost. I didn’t have a lot of money at the time, and that is where I learned my granulation technique.
I buckled down. I had six weeks before the semester started, so I learned as much German as I could. I bought a big, thick dictionary and learned every word pertaining to jewelry; I learned how to put sentences together as best as I could, so I could communicate with the goldsmithing teacher. They showed me a list of things I could study, and on the list was granulation. He basically took me through a series of exercises in silver and then we moved into gold. I had some gold that he taught me how to alloy. I started using a rolling mill. I’d do all these basic things that I had never done before in fabrication. The wizard was handing me the key; I just took off from there. I loved the technique he taught me so much that I pretty much designed my whole career around this one technique. It involves—well, I’ll go into more detail about that.
I want to go over the one thing that made the most important difference for me in my career, and that is when I met my wife, Lynn. She was a jewelry buyer—this was in 1985, 86. It was a couple of years after I had returned from Germany. I was making beautiful jewelry. I had reached a level of mastery after 20 years. This was about at the 20-year mark. I was in my early to mid-thirties, and I had reached a level of mastery by then and I had my own look; I had a feeling. I was very excited about the complexity of the things I could make. I’d really gotten good at stone setting and other skills, not just granulation. I was still having trouble getting myself out there and presenting my work, but one day, I walked into this store in Big Sur, California, and there was a new jewelry buyer there. I’d gone there before, but the old jewelry buyer did not bite. But Lynn was there, and she bought my work, and not only did she buy it, she was selling it like there was no tomorrow. That’s not why I became attracted to her—I mean, it might have had something to do with it—but over the year, we became friends. Then we were both in a situation where we weren’t in relationships and I asked her out. That was 32 years ago, and we decided to create a partnership. We both came into the relationship with similar levels of assets and liabilities and those types of stuff, so we came in and said, “Let’s share everything and do this as a team, 100%.” And dang, it worked out! We’ve been doing this for 30 years.
Lynn had a natural sense of marketing. She used to run clothing stores; she was into fashion. As a jewelry buyer at the Phoenix Shop in Big Sur, she knew how to deal with galleries, what they were looking for and how we could present ourselves to them in a way that made them more likely to buy. That was hugely important for me as a shy person. I had my heart and soul invested in my work, and I needed somebody who could be removed a little bit from that and help me do what I needed to do to make it work, as far as being able to make a good living from it.
We started doing tradeshows, which I would have never considered doing. I saw my work as art rather than a manufactured item. We did Las Vegas; we did a lot of the biggest shows. The Design Center in Las Vegas was just happening in the 90s, and that’s when we started doing shows like this. That enabled us to get our work out to a much wider audience. We were showing in galleries all over the country, and it helped us develop a clientele, some of whom are still buying to this day. That was the other major thing that made the difference for me: having a partner I could totally trust. That’s probably the main thing that’s helped me actually have a successful career. That aside, of course I have always loved making jewelry. Now I can let you ask me questions.
Sharon: So, you and Lynn established Golden Sphere Studios?
Kent: That was more the teaching arm of the online classes. Golden Sphere Studios is the evolution of Kent Raible Jewelry. We sell our work online. We also sell our work through 1stDibs and of course privately. We don’t show a lot in galleries anymore, but we’re thinking of doing that again, although I am semiretired now. I’m not producing like I used to. Right now, I’m making pretty much just what I want to make. I’m not designing so much for the marketplace as much as I am for myself.
What Lynn got me to consider more was doing repeated items so I could make things without the labor and time involved. With a one-of-a-kind piece, the time involved is largely in the building of the piece, not even in the granulation. But the time involved in creating a one-of-a-kind piece can be cut down dramatically if you mold a piece, cast duplicates of it and then granulate them, and that’s what we did. We came up with a line we could sell at a much lower price point and then presented that to the galleries. Also along with that, we had one or two really nice, one-of-a-kind pieces they could sell to their higher-end clientele.
Sharon: Are your one-of-a-kind pieces mostly custom for people who know you already? Do they come to you and say—
Kent: I do commissions once in a while, but mostly I prefer to make what my heart’s telling me to make. I’ll get ideas and go, “Oh, got to make that one.” They all come out of the blue. I never know what’s coming next, and now I’ve got such a wide repertoire of techniques and ideas. Things combine in different ways now that I would have never guessed 10 or 20 years ago. Now I’ve gotten into stonecutting, which is a whole other ball of wax. Cutting my own stones; that’s a lot of fun.
Sharon: Is that something where you said, “O.K., I’ve mastered this aspect, so I’m going to move onto stonecutting”?
Kent: That’s part of it. This is a field where you can spend three or four lifetimes and there’s still more to learn. I like working the old-fashioned way; I’m not really into the new technologies that are coming out. I’m not into CAD. I’m not into laser welding and all that stuff. I’m still the old-fashioned, dinosaur jeweler that does things the very old-fashioned way. What I do is 3,000 years old. You don’t get much more old-fashioned than that. I’m doing things that have been done for thousands of years, but I’m trying to do them in a new way. The fun part of cutting stones is working consecutively—I shouldn’t say consecutively, but working simultaneously in both metal and stone. I can alter things as I’m working. I wasn’t able to do that with gems before or with shapes or forms of stones. I’m only doing very simple cab forms at this point, but I can fine tune a form I probably couldn’t buy, or if I need to change it as I’m working, I can do that.
Right now, for our 30th anniversary and her 60th birthday, I’m making her a pair of earrings. I cut some rose quartz bullet tongue shapes, but they’re so precise and they’re very well matched. On top of them, I’m putting this incredible apricot precious topaz. The combination of the light, translucent pink background with the topaz over the top, it makes the topaz pop out. Then, the translucent background—it’s very feminine and lovely. It’s her colors, so I can’t wait to see them on her. They’re about halfway done now, but the cutting of the stone required that I carve out a notch in the back so the culet of the topaz could fit into the stone so that it’s compact. It brings it in together. There are things like that I can do now with stonecutting that I would have had to order from a lapidarist, which I have done in the past, but this way I can cut as I’m going. You don’t know exactly how deep you need to cut or what the exact shape is going to be. Now, I can do that to a limited degree with stones as I’m working in gold or platinum, whatever I’m working in. That’s a big design. It opens up a whole new possibility for me. That’s pretty exciting, that I can get that excited about something 50 years into my career.
Sharon: I can understand that, because we’re in a time where you can’t stop learning or you can be left behind, whether it’s learning how to use a computer or whatever. But how do you feel that passion for decades? How do you keep it going?
Kent: That is a very good question, and I really don’t know. There’s a part of me that just has to do this. Not so much now; like I said, I’m semiretired. I have other things I’m doing. I’m got a huge vegetable garden, and that takes up a lot of time. I love growing plants. I like doing things that take time. But I also have the most beautiful workshop in the world right now. I love going out there and hanging out, and I have this whole lapidary setup in the back. I have it set up so it's a beautiful space, so that keeps me interested.
The other that keeps me going is my students. I like sharing what I know. Watching other people progress is also inspiring to me. When I see what I can make and I go, “Wow, I made that,” that’s part of what keeps me going. Sometimes I have a vision in my head that’s like, “Wow, I could probably make that.” I’m always trying to challenge myself a little bit as I go, not a lot. It’s an evolutionary process, making jewelry. Every time you make a piece you learn something, and then you take what you learn and then you make something else and you add something, like, “This is what I learned. This is what I don’t want to do next time. This is what I want to try next time.” Slowly, over the decades, you become adept at a lot of different things. The excitement comes when I’m able to combine things I’ve never done before or put things together in a way that’s unique or new. I recently did a major piece for the American Jewelry Design Counsel. Are you familiar with the AJDC?
Sharon: Oh, yes.
Kent: Every year we do a theme project. We did one last year that is to be displayed in conjunction with the opening of the new Gem and Mineral Museum in Tucson. It isn’t open to the public yet, but it will be opening in—I’m not sure if they have an opening date, but by the next Tucson show I’m pretty sure it will be open. Anyway, I did a floating city. The first floating city I did was in 1991 or 1992, which is now in the Smithsonian at the Renwick Gallery. I’ve done different versions of this theme over the years. This time, I put it together in a whole different way than I’ve ever put it together before. I’m not 100% satisfied with how it came out, but I am very excited with the possibilities of what I’ve learned from putting things together in that way. It’s a very complex fabrication, so it was a learning process. I also cut a lot of the stones that are in the piece. It's successful in some ways, and in other ways, I go, “Well, I’m going to do it different next time.” That’s how I work. I try different things. Sometimes they’re successful; sometimes they’re not as successful as what I see in my head, but that’s part of the creative process. You have to be willing to try things and have it not be—I’m rarely 100% satisfied with anything I make.
Sharon: Would those be some words of wisdom to younger jewelers?
Kent: Oh, definitely. You have to give yourself room to play. You have to be willing to fail, and you have to be willing to have a meltdown every once in a while. But the main thing you need to do is always make time. I know money is always an issue if you’re trying to make a living from it, but even so, you have to have time to do things that may not make you any money. You have to make things for the sheer joy of doing them and for the exploration involved. That’s my number one piece of advice to anybody doing anything creative; you have to have time to play and enjoy the process. Jewelry making is a thousand different processes that you can combine in infinite ways. R&D time is really important for the artistic expression. If you want to do something that’s unique, it’s imperative.
Sharon: You joined forces with Lynn, so did you assign her the external part?
Kent: No, we collaborated. She is the one that got me to move away from one-of-a-kind to move into the marketplace. We had a child together, so we needed to support a family. It was a monetary decision. There was a little bit of a push and pull between my artistic side the wanting to make money side. There was a realty involved. I didn’t want to compromise my artistic sensibilities and I did my best to do that. What I came up with, what we call line pieces, the reproduced or the limited-edition series pieces, they’re all really beautiful. I’m still adding to that collection every once in a while, but it was a decision on my part that we needed to make money, so let’s move into this different type of production. In this way, I could actually hire help, too. I could have eight pieces cast and have people work on the castings rather than fabricate from scratch, which is very difficult to train.
Sharon: Yeah, especially if you’re trying to—
Kent: Although I have trained people that have done very well for me.
Sharon: I know so many artistic people face challenges showing their work and selling their work. How would you advise getting past that?
Kent: Well, if it’s something that’s not innate for you, you need to find help. That’s what I did. I really had to push myself because, as a very shy person, it was very uncomfortable for me to go out into the public eye. What I did after I got back from Germany and found myself in tears because I wasn’t able to get out and sell my work, I started taking personal growth workshops. I took all kinds of different stuff where I had to get into my discomfort zone and put myself out there and be uncomfortable. If I hadn’t done that, I probably wouldn’t have been able to see what I needed in a partner. It’s really hard to make it as an artist on your own. You have to have somebody supporting you, whether it’s a gallery owner or a patron, whatever. You need people that believe in you, and you need to believe in yourself first. Your work has to be good, but you need to have help getting you to the marketplace, I think. That is very important if it’s not something innate. For some artists it is innate, marketing, and I think it’s more the exception rather than the rule.
Sharon: From what I’ve heard you say, yes. I give you a lot of credit. You have a lot of personal work.
Kent: Oh yeah, when you have a dream and it’s a big one—the work in itself is very small things, but if you look at my work up close, they’re huge. Visually, in scope, they’re really big. It’s like I try to cram as much hugeness into the smallest space possible. My vision is a lot larger than the actual pieces. That’s kind of an interesting part of what I do.
Sharon: Yes, your work is so complex and intricate that it takes a big scope, even though it’s so small.
Kent: As I’m making them, I’m working very close up, but in my mind these things are huge. That’s how I can get into so much detail, because I see it as a much bigger thing than it actually is.
Sharon: What would your advice be? You’ve won so many awards, like the American Jewelry Design Counsel. I presume they come to you and say, “We’re here. Can you do something for us?” What is your advice? Do you think that’s something emerging jewelers should consider, entering contests?
Kent: Oh, of course. I started doing that in my early twenties; I started entering or doing shows and I started winning awards. It gave me a lot of self-confidence. If you don’t win, it’s O.K. You need to see what’s winning and ask yourself why. You have to be honest with yourself: “Is my work up to this level, and what do I need to do to get there?” It’s mostly about putting in the hours. I put in my first 10,000 hours probably by the time I was in my early twenties because I was so into it. I never had a job—well, that’s not true; I worked at a recycling center on weekends and at minimum wage for a number of years, but in those days, you could work minimum wage and pay your rent and buy food. Then my father allowed me to have a workshop in his garage. That’s how I started. I didn’t own a car. I rode my bike everywhere. I would ride to work and I would just make, make, make, make, make. I would take classes. I went to the College at Marin for three or four years so I could use their shop, but I also took evening classes with an artist in the East Bay whose work I saw at the Palace of the Legion of Honor. His name was William Clark. He’s a sculptor and a jeweler, but what he was able to do with metal so inspired me. I heard he was giving an evening class once for a week for six months. I hopped on that, and I learned things there I never would have learned anywhere else. I don’t know. I kind of got off my train of thought there. Time for another question.
Sharon: You have a very inspiring story. I’m sure you’ve inspired, besides teaching, legions of people in the field. What other pieces of advice would you have for people who are on the cusp of saying, “How do I become you?”
Kent: Well, you know what I did: I just started learning different techniques. I’d focus on one at a time until I achieved a certain level of mastery. The first thing I learned was casting because you can do so much with casting. Nowadays of course you have CAD, but I highly recommend for people getting into jewelry now not to devote themselves too much to CAD. You need to have actual experience doing handwork, because that’s the basis of solid jewelry knowledge and design knowledge. You can’t just design on CAD. You can do some beautiful things, but you’re not going to have the overarching experience of having handwork behind your belt. I see a lot of CAD stuff being done, but unfortunately it all looks the same. You need to have a broad variety of techniques under your belt.
What I did was study casting. I went into forging, raising, tube forming. I started doing repoussé, learning how the plasticity of metal can be used to create interesting forms, relatively quickly if you’re good at it. There’s something about working spontaneously in metal that is so different than anything you can do on the computer. It’s great to have that broad understanding of what the metals can do, not just with casting, but with forging, forming, learning how to make your own stock; I mean, making your own sheet in wire, tubing. I do a whole class that’s just based on tubing online. It’s very successful. People love it. If you want to learn how to fabricate or do things that have moving parts or even for stone setting, being able to make a tube is a huge thing. It has unlimited applications in design. I would say there are so many incredible techniques out there. I’ve only touched the surface myself, but pick the ones that make your heart sing and focus on them. Bring your own flavor, your own heart into it so it’s unique.
That’s how I did it. I started doing granulation when my father showed me a picture of John Paul Miller’s work. If you’re not familiar with John Paul Miller, he was one of the first American granulators in the 20th century. He started doing beautiful granulated enamel pieces in the 50s and 60s. It was his work, among others, but mostly his work, that inspired me to learn granulation. His technique is very different than mine, but I made the technique my own just by doing it, playing with it and learning how to fabricate without solder so I could granulate really intricate, fabricated forms.
Sharon: It’s a very inspiring story. I really appreciate your being here today, Kent. Thank you so much.
Kent: Oh yeah, my pleasure.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Nicolas Estrada
Nicolas Estrada (Medellín, 1972) discovered his artistic pathway in Barcelona, a city that he had come to for entirely different reasons. Until that point, he had been an inhabitant of the business world, where he was involved in marketing. His destiny, however, was to follow another path: creating one-off jewelry artworks that were meaningful, unique and infused with stories that speak to the senses.
At Barcelona's Llotja and Massana schools, he came into contact with the jewelry world for the first time, where he discovered that his efforts opened up infinite possibilities for expression to him. He has studied widely, learning the techniques of gemology, setting and engraving. Nicolas has given lectures and workshops at universities and art centers in England, Germany and the United States. In 2019, he was invited to represent his homeland, Colombia, at World Art Tokyo in Japan, where he also had the opportunity to give a lecture and lead a workshop at the Hiko Mizuno College of Jewelry in Tokyo, Japan's most highly regarded jewelry school.
Nicolas is the author of the five books in the series on jewelry that has been published by Promopress in several languages and distributed worldwide.
Nicolas lives in Barcelona, the city that allowed him to be who he wanted to be and to do what he wanted to do. He has his own studio, where he shares his craft and experiences with other jewelers who also live in or are passing through this wonderful cosmopolitan city.
Additional Resources:
· Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/NEJ
· Instagram: @nicolasestradajeweler
· Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nicolasestradajeweler
· Video about his books: https://youtu.be/Ph8aoK8Vg4I
· Video about his studio & work: https://youtu.be/SxwJYAPZfJQ
Photos:
Earrings 1: hand-carved rock crystal, gold
Earrings 2: trapiche emeralds, diamonds, silver
Brooch: agates with intaglio, silver, steel
Ring 1: rock crystal with intaglio, silver, pearls
Ring 2: wood, copper, silver, paint
Transcript:
Although Nicolas Estrada entered the jewelry field later in life, he has as much enthusiasm for the industry as any newcomer. Coming from a background in the business world, he brings a wealth of creativity and keen insight to his work as a maker, researcher, and author. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why he thinks art jewelry will explode if makers tap into the right market, how he compiled his series of jewelry books, and why he finds more meaning in art jewelry than traditional jewelry. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, speaking with us from Barcelona is my guest, Nicolas Estrada. Nicolas is a maker, entrepreneur and creator of five books featuring art jewelers from around the world. Each book focuses on a different type of jewelry such as necklaces or bracelets, and I’m sure many of you have his books on your shelves. We’ll hear more about his jewelry journey today. Nicolas, welcome to the program.
Nicolas: Thank you very much for inviting me, Sharon. I am very happy to talk to you today.
Sharon: It’s great to talk with you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Were you creative as a child?
Nicolas: My journey in jewelry started in 2000 exactly, I think around the same month. I was a very creative child. My parents and my sister thought I was going to study design. In Colombia at that time, if you were very creative, you could go to architecture school maybe, but I went into engineering because I wanted to be like my father. So, I went to electrical engineering, but I crashed against a wall in the first semester.
Then I went into business administration. The situation at that time in Colombia was extremely dangerous. All the things you see in the Narcos series, this was my city; this is how I grew up. I think my father was very worried that I was living in the city at that time, so without saying anything, he sent me to Boston to study business. So, the creativity went into a parenthesis for a while. I was always making gifts for my girlfriends, for my friends, but I was going to be an executive. When I came to Barcelona, it exploded. I became a jeweler with many, many things happening in between. If you want, I can tell them, but this is a long story. I don’t know if you want me to share it with you.
Sharon: I’m curious why Barcelona. How did you go from Boston at Babson College, I think I read, to Barcelona? How did you make that leap? What was the catalyst?
Nicolas: In Boston, I had a great time in the university. Babson was a great school. They’re international, so I had many friends during the first time in my life by myself. But the winter was so hard, and it was the first time in my life when night arrived at 4:00 and the day started at 9:00. So, at the end of Boston, I went back to Medellín. I worked in a bank for six months. Then I went into a multinational company knitting garments for one or two years, then I went into another consumer goods multinational for another two years and I burned out completely. This corporate world was very hard for me. I was very successful, but the only thing I was getting from this corporate world was money, nothing else. I decided to quit. I started to apply for an MBA at all these Ivy League schools, but I didn’t get the GMAT score I needed. So, I was thinking, “O.K., what am I going to do?”
My sister was living in Barcelona. I had never been to Spain before, so I decided to go visit her, maybe take the summer for myself, think about life a little bit and decide what to do. I came to Barcelona, and in September I went to a jewelry school because there was professor who was a friend of a boyfriend that my sister was dating at the time. I started to do some jewelry because I wanted to express myself, take a break from the corporate world. It was the first time I had time for myself in five years, because I was always going from one work to another without any holidays in between. I remember in that school, I went to an exhibition and saw work from McClure in Canada and another artist here in Barcelona; it was a museum. I said to myself, “This is the kind of work I want to do for the rest of my life.” I saw that most of the people who were exhibiting in that museum were from the Massana School, former students or professors. I went to talk to Ramón at Massana and he said, “Yeah, transfer and I will receive you here,” and I got into Massana.
Sharon: When you say Ramon--
Nicolas: He was my sister’s friend. I went to talk to Ramón. He was so friendly, and he said, “Well, yeah, transfer and you will get into Massana. I will make sure you get into it this year.” So, I transferred, he accepted me and I started at Massana. My father was freaked out because, imagine, he had paid so much money for education. I was so successful in Colombia. I was doing extremely well in the corporate world. I was starting to change a little bit, so he was like, “O.K., why don’t do jewelry as a hobby and maybe you’ll come back to the corporate world.” I said, “Dad, give me a little time and let me decide.”
I think putting all these oceans between Colombia and my life was also very helpful, because in Medellín you don’t do what you want; you do what people want you to do. If you are a man, you are supposed to play a certain role in society: not artistic, not cooking, nothing like that, no creativity. You just go into business, or you become a doctor or something like that. Here in Barcelona, nobody knew who I was; nobody cared about me. I’ve said many times that in Barcelona, it was the first time in my life that I had time for myself and the opportunity to be exactly what I wanted to be. This was also very difficult because I had this background and the commitment with my father. I needed to retribute all the effort he made for paying for my university. When I graduated from Massana, I won a prize. I went to Marseilles as a representative from Massana and I won a prize and went to Germany—
Sharon: You’re talking about Galerie Marseilles?
Nicolas: Exactly. At Massana School, I won the prize for one of the best graduation works. The best works went to Galerie Marseille. I won a prize in Marseille at Galerie Marseille, all the ones who won the prize went to Germany. I won the first prize in Germany. There was a woman here called Pilar Garrigosa. She was a woman—I don’t know how you say the word in English, but the woman who supports artists a lot.
Sharon: A sponsor, sort of?
Nicolas: Yeah, a sponsor, exactly. She’s also a jeweler, but she was always sponsoring people she liked. She liked my work, so she invited me to exhibit in her house. My parents were here during that time of the year, and when they saw this exhibition, they realized this is what I was going to do. People were amazed; I was very happy. I saw a lot of work. It was fantastic. So, my father relaxed, and I continued with jewelry. I was with jewelry for a while. This was, what, 2000, 2003, 2004? And it was fantastic.
I was working for a very important jeweler here, not artistic at all, very commercial. I was doing a lot of his pieces and I was earning my livelihood. I liked the craft; I liked working with my hands. I was learning technique, because in jewelry most of the good technicians, they start at 14 in the studio, or at 12 or 16. I started very old in the craft. I took advantage of all this time to go to technical schools, to learn from masters, but most was commercial jewelry.
Sharon: When you say commercial jewelry, were you working in what we think of as traditional jewelry, as opposed to art jewelry, where you’re working with gemstones?
Nicolas: Exactly, yeah. Traditional is a more appropriate word. I needed to earn my livelihood; I needed to pay the mortgage. I needed to bring some money into the house. Artistic jewelry is fantastic for the soul, but very bad for the pocket. I was doing some artistic jewelry, but I was mostly making my life working for this known jeweler here in Barcelona.
Sharon: Who was the sponsor you named? I don’t know the name.
Nicolas: Her name is Pilar Garrigosa. She’s a very important woman here. She’s from the family of one of the most important mayors of the city. She had a jewelry gallery a long time ago, and she’s a fantastic woman. She also opened the door for me to the jewelry institutions, to many people. I went with her to Munich for the first time. She’s still a very good friend of mine, and she was my collector in the beginning. She was buying a lot of pieces from me. She’s a woman I am very grateful for.
Sharon: What attracted you to art jewelry as opposed to, say, traditional jewelry? What was it that you liked?
Nicolas: Traditional jewelry gave me the technique, but I think traditional jewelry sometimes is a little boring because it doesn’t speak to the person; it’s just gold and gemstones. It’s fantastic to know how to do these, but I think the jewelry that speaks, that tells a story, this is the artistic jewelry. This is the jewelry I like to do now. I also try to do some traditional jewelry that has a more artistic look. I am not a professor; I earn my living from jewelry and artistic jewelry. The public is very narrow, so it’s difficult to approach a lot of people with artistic jewelry. I like to make more commercial pieces, more traditional jewelry to appeal to a broader audience.
Sharon: There is a real market for art jewelry, but it’s a lot narrower than regular jewelry. Do you see any changes in that marketplace? Do you see it growing? Do you see it declining? You travel all over the world and talk to art jewelers. Do you see any changes or hot spots, let’s say?
Nicolas: The thing is that, apart from us, nobody knows what art jewelry is, so the potential for growth is 1000% if we manage to arrive to people. People don’t know who we are; they don’t even know that this exists. When they see a ring from Niessing, they are overwhelmed, and this ring is from the 40s, 50s. People still believe that jewelry from the 60s is extremely creative. We are not doing a good job at all in showing to the world what we do. The image that people have of jewelry is from Cartier, Bulgari, a diamond from De Beers, the engagement ring they buy in the most traditional store. There’s all the potential in the world because people don’t know what we do. They have no idea there is another kind of jewelry.
Sharon: Every art jeweler has to be a businessperson and market their own things, but you have such a strong business and entrepreneurial background. Do you think that gives you an edge or makes you see things differently in how you sell your stuff or make art jewelry more known? Does this give you more edge?
Nicolas: The marketing is very good when you are using somebody else’s budget.
Sharon: Somebody else’s money?
Nicolas: Budget, the money from somebody else. If you are a corporation and you get $1 million to invest in advertisement, you do it all perfectly, but when you have to sell yourself, this is extremely difficult. Also, I think nothing prepares you in life for rejection when people say, “This is too ugly,” or you have things in red, blue or white, but they want it in yellow, the color that you don’t have. You have variety, but people want exactly what you don’t have. For me, no matter how well you are trained, rejection and negativity and these things are very difficult to take. The business world prepares you maybe to manage money, to invest, to be organized, but it doesn’t prepare you for the artistic world, because the artistic world is extremely difficult. As you said before, it’s not that we are not only the owners of our business. We have to be the photographer; we have to write; we have to deal with social media; we have to teach and we have to speak, so we are all in one. We need to be very well prepared.
Sharon: That’s so true. Nothing prepares you for the rejection when it’s your own work. Maybe somebody has been out in the world as a salesperson, but they’re not selling their own things. It’s so personal when somebody says, “It’s too expensive,” or “Do you have it in yellow?” How was it that you started compiling books? Why don’t you tell everybody about them?
Nicolas: Since I started in the artistic world, I tried to be receptive to all the doors that open in life. You have to be very careful of what you ask for, because usually what you ask for is going to arrive. I try to be prepared every time a door opens. Usually for me, it’s very difficult to say no to things.
When I mentioned to you before that I got this prize here in Barcelona, there was a guy in the exhibition of the winners. He liked my piece, so he made me do one piece for his girlfriend and we kept in touch. He’s a little bit older than I am, maybe two or three years older, so we were seeing each other in all of our exhibitions, in the art scene in the city. One day our friend said, “I have a friend who is a publisher and he would love to publish a book about jewelry. I will tell him to call you.” This was in 2005. In 2010, I got the phone call from this guy, five years later when I had totally forgotten about it. He told me he was selling the books from the Lark Books publisher, like the “1,000 Rings” books that are fantastic, and that opened the door for all of us. So, I said yeah, but I want to make a book for my house. I said, “Look, I don’t copy things, but we can start talking about different languages, different artists, stuff like that.” We started to talk about it. This was in 2009 maybe. I started to do some research, to look at all the books, and we started with “Rings.” We were calling at that time; this was by email and calling and by regular mail. We published the “Rings” book in 2010 and it was a total success.
Then we did “Earrings.” It was also very successful. After “Earrings,” we did “Necklaces.” “Necklaces” is one of my favorite books because it allowed me to show for the first time the people who wear the kind of jewelry we make. In “Rings” and “Earrings,” you don’t see much of the face or the body, but in “Necklaces,” I was able show the people. The British publisher who buys most of the books from the catalogue publisher didn’t like some of the bodies, so this was the big heat. The catalogue publisher said, “No, we’ll go with the book anyway.” This was also a very difficult book. Now we have five books. It’s like one book every two years.
Sharon: They are so fabulous. I have a hard time looking at some of them because the jewelry is so beautiful. It’s so creative and fantastic, and it’s also a great way to learn about other artists, too. There are a lot of names I’m sure a lot of people don’t know or aren’t familiar with. Do you search these people out? I’m sure they come to you also. How do you find them? It’s such a variety and so global. How do you find them all?
Nicolas: Well, Sharon, after so many years in the field—the first book was extremely difficult. I had to invite every single person in that book because nobody knew me. Many people didn’t trust me. There were even some people in Argentina trying to bring the book down because they thought I was going to steal all the images. This was so difficult to make. Now, after so many trips to Munich, so many trips all around the world looking at nice jewelry, I have my database. I also make huge calls everywhere. I think I reach a big jewelry audience with this call. For example, in the “Bracelet” book, I was surprised because 60% of the people who are in this book—it’s the last book—I didn’t know anything about. I was very afraid of this book because it was going to be the end of a collection in a way, so I wanted this book to be beautiful. But not too many people make bracelets, so I was always in fear, “Am I going to fail? This is not going to be good enough.” But at the end, I got all this information from people I didn’t know anything about. To answer your question, in the first book, I had to invite every single participant. In the last book, the attention was so nice that I was bombarded by applications of many people I didn’t know anything about and has surprisingly beautiful work.
Sharon: What kept you going if the first book was so difficult? Was it that the publisher said, “O.K., we’re past the worst. Now, let’s get to the second book”? What kept you going?
Nicolas: For me, as I said before, we have huge potential because mostly nobody knows what we do. This is the seed I give. This is my way of contributing to the field to show to a broader audience that rings are not only from Cartier; there are many more rings. If you want to adorn yourself, you don’t have to go Bulgari; you don’t have to go Fifth Avenue in New York. You can look for people, crazy guys, crazy girls, who make things in an atelier and get dirty and cut themselves. There’s a very beautiful way to adorn yourself if you go away from the most traditional sources. This is how I want to contribute to the field that has given me so much. Jewelry is my life. Jewelry makes me a happy man because I love the field; I love my work; I admire my colleagues very much. This is a way for me to give back.
Also, to be very honest, books give me a little bit of a reputation in the field. The artistic world is so hard most of the time. This reputation is a little fuel to my ego to keep going after rejection, after failing to sell, after not doing well in the gallery. I get the messages of people who are in the book, “Oh, I love your work. My pieces look fantastic.” I get back a little bit. I get very nice feedback and it makes very happy. So, I want to contribute to the field. I get a reputation. It’s a balance. It helps me a lot.
Sharon: They’re beautiful books. Do you think it’s opened some people’s eyes, people who didn’t know about this kind of jewelry? It’s certainly a great way to do it. It’s a great introduction if somebody doesn’t know anything about the field. Do you think it’s opened people’s eyes?
Nicolas: Totally, yeah. To give you a personal example, my mother didn’t know this kind of jewelry existed, and now she’s sharing these with all her friends. If we give a book like this to friends, if we open their eyes, little by little we’re going to create a broader audience. That is what we need. I think the luxury world is not our world. The luxury world for me is very boring. If you are a man, you go to Armani, you buy off the mannequin, so you dress like the mannequin, same tie, same suit, same belt. You go to Rolex and buy the watch because in the luxury world, you want to show how much money you have and how much you are worth. I think we are never going to reach the luxury world because we don’t sell prestige, but we sell a story. I think we have to look for the people who go to museums, who are more responsive to a storm or a sunset or the beautiful things in life, not only money. These are the people I try to target because these are the people who want to invest in the things that make them happy, not in the things that show others how much money they have. These are the people I want to target with the books, with my jewelry, with our approach. There are so many people like this in the world. Millionaires, there are a few, but I think there are many more people who are responsive to beauty, and these are the people who we want to approach.
Sharon: Do you have another book in the hopper or in mind? Is there another one, or do you feel like you’ve covered the gamut?
Nicolas: “Bracelets” was delayed one year because of the pandemic. It was supposed to be released in 2020, but it just got released in January of this year. I am taking my time to enjoy the book, to enjoy the comments, to make sure all the participants get their copies. I think there is going to be another book in the very near future, but I don’t know exactly what it is going to be. The thing with these books, Sharon, is that they cannot only be beautiful books; they also need to be commercial books because they are business for the publisher. Many books you see are exploring beauty and everything, but they are targeted to a certain audience. The books I make, they need to sell out. They need to get everywhere; they need to have a second edition, otherwise the publisher is not going to be interested. I have to talk to him and see what is going to be beneficial for him and beneficial for me. We have to get together maybe later this year, during the second semester, and start deciding what are we going to do next, because this is exacting work. It’s not that I go to the publisher and tell him what to do. This is a work; I am the author and I make compilations for them, but they are the ones who sell and they are the ones who invest. They are the ones who need to get back their investment.
Sharon: Right, I understand. They have to make money. Well, it’s a good thing they sell because it’s a great series. Thank you so much for being here today. Hopefully when the next book comes out, we’ll have you back. Thank you so much, and good luck with everything. We’ll be talking with you.
Nicolas: It was a fantastic invitation. Thank you very much, and I hope we can have a reality again without all the virtuality. Virtuality is amazing, the way we manage to discover the spiritual world that connects to many people, but I think we miss the hug; we miss touching; we miss seeing; we miss saying hello, having a drink. I hope to see you again very soon here in Barcelona, in Munich or somewhere else in the world, Sharon.
Sharon: I look forward to it.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for reading.
Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Peter Schmid
Peter Schmid owns Atelier Zobel in Konstanz, Germany. Original owner Michael Zobel was a master craftsman who honed his skills and talent to create pieces that are arresting in their visual impact and remarkable in their goldsmithing and soldering technique. He combined metals in new, sensual, even erotic ways. The effect was electrifying. Working at his side was protégé Peter Schmid.
Like Zobel before him, Peter is both artist and craftsman, and he brings that special blend to every piece he creates. His chief inspiration is character: the character of place, the character of material, even the character of intent. Mountains and rivers inspire him. Precious stones inspire him. And the idea of what he is making inspires him, whether it’s a ring or a brooch or a bracelet, or one that transforms into another.
For Peter, every piece is about the interaction of visual elements with invisible inspiration. His work is revered worldwide for its attention to detail, its fusion of gold and silver, his gemstone settings, and the fluid movement all his pieces seem to share.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Jewelry from Peter Schmid:
Transcript:
Peter Schmid might have become a corporate manager if he never walked past the window of Atelier Zobel in Konstanz, Germany. Peter was instantly mesmerized by the jewelry on display, and he made it his goal to leave business school and become an apprentice for Michael Zobel. After a few years of jewelry design school, that dream came true, and today Peter is the head of Atelier Zobel. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to share what advice he would give young jewelry designers who want to follow his path, why he loves using stones with imperfections, and how he has refined Atelier Zobel’s designs and process. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Peter Schmid, head of the well-known firm Atelier Zobel in Konstanz, Germany. Although he didn’t set out to become a metalsmith and jewelry designer, his work is shown all over the world. Today we’ll hear all about his jewelry journey. Peter, welcome to the program.
Peter: Thank you. I’m glad to be here.
Sharon: Glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. They’re all interesting, but this sounds like a very interesting one.
Peter: Yeah, I don’t know. When I started, I was basically thinking about what I was going to be in my professional career. I was thinking, “Well, I’ll be an accountant or manager of something,” so I went to school. After that, I found out it’s not actually exactly what I wanted to be, because I was always painting and interested in sculpting things and making things, but I never knew what to make; I just wanted to make something. So, a friend of my dad was like, “Well, why don’t you become a goldsmith?” and I was like, “I don’t know.” I looked at the jewelry of my mom and it didn’t appeal so much. It’s not what I wanted to do, the jewelry she had.
Then another friend was telling me about Konstanz, the town I’m now in, that there are so many goldsmiths here. It’s a big tradition in Germany and in Konstanz especially. Then, I walked up to the window of Michael Zobel—this was in 1995—and I saw the window. It was amazing, with crazy decoration and big pieces in there. This is how jewelry should look like. It’s an expression. It’s an artful piece. It’s a piece you wear for yourself and not for anybody else. It’s a personal thing, and I think that got me more into this experience, what is jewelry and what to make out of it.
Sharon: Were you always creative, or were you always painting and doing other things? Up to this point, were you doing things with your hands?
Peter: Yes, I was always painting, but the paintings I did, I was playing with colors. It was a lot of just paint on the canvas and melting colors into each other. I was always fascinated by that. I didn’t like my paintings that much, I have to say. I had an exhibition once here in Konstanz because people were pushing me into that, but I didn’t feel like I was a painter. I didn’t feel like this was my career or I was good enough for that, the play of color.
Sharon: I’m jumping around now, but today do you feel like you’re a jeweler? You didn’t feel like you were a painter. Do you feel like you’re a designer, a jeweler?
Peter: The designing for me is the pleasure of being free with my thoughts. I don’t know if I’m a designer in the sense of designing. It’s hard to say. Maybe I’m more an artist. But in the first place, that’s the tradition here in Germany. How I learned metalsmithing and goldsmithing was basically traditional. It’s more about the techniques and refining those techniques. It’s also what our atelier still does. We’re really working on the bench with the metal, melting them together and fusing them together. We basically use the metal as a paint as well as the stones and the color of the stones. I use this as a color palette, but with the skills of a goldsmith. It’s nice to be able to do that and to use those traditions as well.
Sharon: So, you combined everything, in a sense.
Peter: Yes.
Sharon: So, you looked in the Michael Zobel window. Tell us why you saw this jewelry and said, “Oh my god, this is it.” What did you do from there? You became an apprentice, but how did that happen?
Peter: I became an apprentice. I was very convinced that this was it. It never occurred to me that there is something else. What happened was I had a résumé made, and I walked into the shop and met Michael Zobel. I’m like, “I want to be your apprentice,” and he was like, “Well, you first have to go to school and learn the basic techniques of sewing and filing and soldering and all of this. This is what I need of somebody who comes to us. They need to know how to work with the tools.” I’m like, “O.K., sounds good to me.” So, I walked out again and applied to a school which offered a design course that was just a year longer than the regular school.
After that, I graduated as a jewelry designer as well as a theoretical goldsmith from that school. In Germany, you have to do both; you have to do school and learn with a master goldsmith. I did everything theoretically in school, learning how to file and do all the basics. I came back to him and said, “I’m done with my school and I want to apprentice with you.” He was like, “Well, I have an apprentice already.” For me, it was so clear that I was going to practice there. I never looked for anything else. I never thought of anything else, because that’s the jewelry I wanted to make. Somehow I think he felt that I was really passionate about that, and he was like, “Well, I think this is the first and only year we’re going to have two apprentices.” That was it, and he took me in as an apprentice. It was so interesting to learn, and yeah, it’s different. You’re on the lowest level when you start as an apprentice. You have to clean the workshop and supply basically all the other goldsmiths with whatever they need. If they need coffee, you have to go and run out for coffee.
Sharon: Go get Starbucks, yes.
Peter: Exactly, that’s how it works.
Sharon: So, you already had a career in a sense. You were on a different career path before you did this, right?
Peter: Yes, I was in business school. I didn’t really know what to do, but I felt like, “Well, business is always good. It sounds perfect.” My dad was also an entrepreneur and I felt like it was a good path, and I knew a lot about it already and how it is to work for yourself. Then in school, the whole time it was, “You’re going to be manager of Zieman’s and you’re going to be manager of this and that company,” and I was like, “I don’t want to be a manager of any company.”
Sharon: When you decided to switch, did you meet resistance from family and friends? Like, “How are you going to make a living?”
Peter: No, actually, everybody knew already.
Sharon: They were happy you found something that made you happy.
Peter: They were happy I finally realized that.
Sharon: Wow, that’s great! What is it about jewelry that attracted you when you saw it? They sound like statement pieces.
Peter: There was a fusing of the work back then. Gold was not as expensive as it is today. There was a big cuff which was about, I don’t know, like a Wonder Woman cuff, but all in gold with platinum on top of it. I looked at it and I was like, “This is so strong and mesmerizing,” because I didn’t know how it was made, that the platinum on top was fused and it’s all done by heat only. I could not believe how to make a piece like that. It was unbelievable.
Sharon: I love that word, mesmerizing. That is really great word. I don’t hear it too often, but it just drew you in. I’m not a maker—I’ve done some soldering and stuff, but when we look at your pieces with the gold on top of the—I don’t even know what the other metal is.
Peter: It’s sterling silver.
Sharon: Is it just heat that makes it stick together?
Peter: Yeah, and magic I guess, but basically it’s just heat. It’s a heating process. We heat it up. It’s like a granulation, which is also just heat to heat, and you granulate it. It’s gold on top of sterling silver, and then we do gold with platinum on top or gold with gold on top. That works as well. Then there’s sterling with palladium or sterling with platinum all together also.
Sharon: That would be mesmerizing. Is this a technique that you learned outside of your schooling?
Peter: It is a tradition we have here in the studio and at Michael Zobel. When I came here as an apprentice, we already did a lot of the sterling with gold on top. I think Michael started that in the 80s, the first pieces, when I look back in our archive. Then, there were a lot of tryouts with different material on top, like copper and bronze. There was already a lot of trying of these things, and some worked out really well and some didn’t so much. When I started working here, I learned all of these techniques to make jewelry in that way, with the fusing and basically painting on the piece.
At the beginning, I was just executing designs for Michael Zobel. Later I graduated as a goldsmith in the studio, and I worked here for a while as a goldsmith and in the shop, so I was in contact with the clients. I always liked to travel, and at one point we started traveling more in the U.S., building out more contacts there and doing shows in Baltimore. I think it was the late 90s when we were in Baltimore. It was fun, and I met Todd Reed. I met all these people. It was super fun. I had a great time, and for me, as a goldsmith, it was amazing to see all that. Michael liked to have somebody to travel with, so we built up that market together and it was nice.
At one point I took over the business, because I think he saw that I’m very passionate about it. I started to design my own pieces and work from there. It was very interesting to step forward into designing and making. I wasn’t hired as a designer; I was hired as a goldsmith, but it was kind of a liquid transition to it. It’s a flow. It went on. It’s like a master and an apprentice, and then the apprentice becomes a master. It’s quite an interesting way of moving on, with an atelier like that.
Sharon: So, you were transitioning from being one of the hands-on people to translating your ideas, your vision into something that somebody else was making.
Peter: Right. I became the head of the atelier later because Michael retired. I did my own work, and we moved on with a lot of the designs and the process. The fusing became more refined. I don’t know how to describe it, but it became more textured on the surface. In the early days, we only had strong graphic designs. Now, they’ve become a bit more poetic because we do flowers and paisley, stuff like that. That wasn’t possible before. It was interesting to work in the studio with the goldsmiths and push them into going forward in the making process and discovering new techniques in how we work. It was really cool.
That happened when I saw an exhibition of Japanese kimonos. Parts of them are stitched. There’s stitching and printing on the kimonos, and they have these beautiful patterns. I thought, “It’s amazing. I want to do something like that. I want to bring a pattern onto the surface of our jewelry.” We actually have been able to do that, to put a real pattern on it. The first pattern we figured out looked a bit like a koi pond. It’s sterling silver as a base, and then we figured out how to print koi onto the figure in gold. We had golden koi printed on top.
Sharon: It sounds beautiful.
Peter: It was a beautiful piece with aquamarine, beautifully carved. There were aquamarine slices carved from the back on the surface, which was the water of the pond, and then the koi, which was a little reminiscent of the kimonos.
Sharon: Wow, that sounds beautiful! You mentioned aquamarine. I know you have a real interest in gems. How did you develop that? Did you just start incorporating it, or was it already part of the atelier?
Peter: It’s interesting because now I love gems, but when I was in school—I don’t blame the school, but when you learn about gems and have class about gemology, you look at these tiny little stones and they all look alike. I mean, one is blue and the other is red. O.K., this is tourmaline red and this is ruby red, but they all look alike. You have to use a microscope and all of that. I couldn’t really grasp them as a piece of jewelry.
Now what I love about stones is the imperfection. I love a stone which is completely perfect; that’s amazing, but I actually do like the imperfection in the stone. I feel like it’s more personal. It’s a unique stone and I’m always drawn to that one. I’m like, “This is off. The color is off,” and I want that. I want to have something that is not expected to be that color. Now I love stones and I use them as my color palette, but it was not so easy to get into gems.
Sharon: Do your clients embrace the fact that you like the imperfections? Do they see it in the same way you do, that it gives the work personality, or are they like, “Oh, that’s not a perfect stone”?
Peter: No, I think they see what I do with it. For me, when I see this beautiful stone, it’s not that it’s sitting there as a flaw. It comes into a composition with the piece itself. I want to put it on a pedestal and show off that it’s beautiful and that it has this imperfection. Sometimes, when there is an inclusion in the stone, for example, I repeat this inclusion onto the metal as an echo of the inclusion, so you really see the inclusion. I don’t want to hide the inclusion; I want to show the inclusion. The cool part is the inclusion because that makes it real. A perfect stone could be synthetic, but nature is amazing, how that inclusion is in there. Hydroquartz or inner quartz is amazing, I think. They do great work with that.
Sharon: You’re probably surrounded by fabulous stones, both perfect and imperfect ones.
Peter: Yes.
Sharon: Tell us about your clientele. Is there a demographic of women of a certain age? Is it younger people? Is it men?
Peter: I don’t know. Most clients, I think they like the jewelry because it is a personal piece. It’s something you wear for yourself, and you don’t have to show off with it. I mean, you show off; you get attraction with it. It’s not something that hides. If you wear a piece of my work, you can definitely see it, and I think the clients appreciate it. They also like that people don’t understand what it really is. It’s an interesting piece.
I have one client, she never wore jewelry and then she came and was so in love. We had this exhibition on lucky charms. Lucky charms are usually these tiny things you wear around your wrist or your neck, but we made big ones. I made a really big brooch with a Buddha inside. There was an ancient Buddha about two or three hundred years ago inside, then rays of gold going away from that, and then rough diamonds as a frame, almost like a picture frame. It was a round brooch, and on top was a tourmaline cat’s eye just to have this magical light, because the Buddha was in a triangle, sitting there in a niche. It’s quite a big brooch, about 12 centimeters in diameter. The client came and she was like, “This is an amazing piece of art.” She didn’t wear jewelry at all, but she bought the piece and she wears it all the time. When she doesn’t wear it, she has it in a frame at home. I see her often in the city wearing it. Just like that, they go to a beer garden and she’s wearing that piece around her neck, and it makes her feel good and lucky. It’s amazing.
Sharon: A different kind of lucky charm. If it makes her feel like she’s lucky, that’s half the battle. Do you do custom work? Do you do jewelry for men?
Peter: Yes, I do custom work. I love to do that. I love to explore special pieces with people when they tell me a story for what it is. We talk a little bit, and usually I get a sense of this person, if they like a big piece or a smaller piece. I’m not only making gigantic pieces. It has to fit to the person. The person has to be comfortable to wear it. It shouldn’t be something which is wearing you; you should wear it. You should own it. That’s what it should be, so I love to make custom pieces for people.
Men are also super fun. I have a collection of Ashanti gold weights. They’re from a tribe in Africa. Nowadays, I think it’s in Ghana. The tribe of the Ashanti, they used to have these gold weights for trade back then. It was a different time, so they traded the gold with these little pronged weights. I think they’re super interesting. Each one is different. I make a lot of men’s jewelry with that, like a ring or a pendant, adding some rough diamonds to it and giving it an edge. Men tend to like the story around that. Also meteorite jewelry is often used for men.
Sharon: I’m sorry, what kind of jewelry is used for men?
Peter: Meteorite.
Sharon: Oh, meteorite. Yes, that would be interesting. There’s a masculine element to that.
Peter: Yeah, or opal. I love opals for men as well.
Sharon: Who doesn’t like opals? For those people just starting out, for the next person who knocks on your window and says, “This is really cool. I really want to do this,” what advice would you give them, besides make sure you know how to saw and all of that? That’s important.
Peter: It is important.
Sharon: Oh, my gosh! It takes a lot of patience and you have to be very detail-oriented. You grew up with an entrepreneur as a father and you’re an entrepreneur. What advice what you give somebody, besides that they have to have the foundational skills? What advice what you give somebody starting out?
Peter: The first that comes to my mind is you have to be passionate about what you do. You must follow the passion in what you do and be true to that. I also think curiosity is important, to push it always a little bit. I think that’s important to just push a little bit. I have a little story about pushing, because I have that in mind. When I was in school, we had pottery class and we had to make a flowerpot. You just have a flower in there. I started off making that flowerpot and I was like, “This is so boring. I can’t even tell you how boring it is to make a tubular flowerpot out of clay.” Clay felt amazing for me, and so I started drifting off into clay. I ended up with—how do you call it, for watering flowers?
Sharon: Like a watering can?
Peter: Yeah, like a watering can out of clay. It was really amazing, and my teacher loved it because it was well-done and beautifully made. She had to take one point away from me because it was supposed to be a flowerpot, but it’s always pushing a little bit, pushing the boundaries. I don’t know; I love that. I think it’s hard to stay within the parameters. I think passion is a good thing.
Sharon: It’s so important. It’s clear that’s what has driven you and continued the firm’s success and made your jewelry so well-known. Peter, thank you so much for being with us today.
Peter: My pleasure. That was fun.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Patricia Gostick
Patricia Gostick has always loved old "stuff", especially jewelry, but she started seriously collecting vintage costume jewelry in the late 1990s. A retired educator, she began to do research in the field of antique and vintage jewelry and became a v.c.j. dealer, buying and selling interesting pieces. Her specialty is the jewelry and art of McClelland Barclay (1891-1943), and she has published a number of articles about him. Her book "McClelland Barclay: Painter of Beautiful Women and More" is an illustrated biography of the life of this multi-talented man. Patricia founded the Toronto Vintage Costume Jewelry Club in 2005, and she is a supporter of Costume Jewelry Collectors International (CJCI.)
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Cover of book, McClelland Barclay: Painter of Beautiful Women and More
p. 105 from the book showing an example to McClelland’s cover art
p. 112 from book showing a very relaxed McClelland Barclay at the beach
p. 122 from book showing goldtone Retro Moderne jewellery
p. 119 from book showing sterling silver jewellery
Transcript:
Like many jewelry lovers, vintage jewelry dealer Patricia Gostick became enchanted by a particular jewelry designer. In her case, that designer was a little-known artist named McClelland Barclay, and his fascinating story led her to perform extensive research on his life and eventually write a book about him. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about why McClelland Barclay captivated her, how she chooses pieces for her personal collection, and what types of vintage jewelry are popular right now. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is vintage jewelry dealer Patricia Gostick. She’s also the author of a new book, “McClelland Barclay: Painter of Beautiful Women and More.” I have to admit I am not familiar with this individual and his work, and I’m looking forward to learning more about it today. Patricia, welcome to the program.
Patricia: Thanks so much, Sharon.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. Did you always like jewelry? Did you play with it when you were young? How did that come about?
Patricia: Yes, I was one of those children who always liked jewelry; I would say loved jewelry and played with it. I remember a highlight of my childhood was visiting an aunt who was very beautiful and fashionable. She invited my sisters and me to look through her jewelry drawer, which was filled with boxes and displays of jewelry, and she said, “You may each choose one piece, your favorite piece, and keep it as a gift from me.” I still remember looking through all these sparkly things, like being in Aladdin’s cave, and I never stopped loving jewelry.
Sharon: How did you become a vintage jewelry dealer? How did that come about?
Patricia: It started as a pretty young person. I started going to church bazaars, where all manner of things were sold, but I always headed to the jewelry table. You could always pick up some nice, old things. I started handling jewelry, really quality pieces, beautiful pieces, pieces that appealed to me. I eventually learned that some jewelry had little things on the backs called signatures. One of the best gifts my husband eventually gave to me was a jeweler’s loupe. As I started going on jewelry buying trips all over the place, I took my loupe with me and would search out these signatures. I became more aware of different styles and types of jewelry, and eventually I became a costume jewelry dealer.
I did shows at some of the top venues in Toronto and I started doing research on jewelry. I joined the Vintage Fashion and Costume Jewelry Group that was run by Lucille Tempesta. That organization had a jewelry magazine and I started writing articles for the magazine. I founded the Toronto Costume Jewelry Club in 2005 because I knew in a city of this size there had to be other like-minded jewelry fans, and we’ve been going since 2005. Maybe just in a virtual way during the pandemic, but we’re still going strong.
Over the years I attended some of the conferences held by the Vintage Fashion and Costume Jewelry Group in Providence, Rhode Island, which allowed me to do some research in that state. I eventually joined the successor of that group, Costume Jewelry Collectors International, and I have done research and written some original articles for that group. In 2013, I opened my online store, because I was finding it really tiring to do the antique shows and there were fewer of them. I opened a store called Bijoux Vintage on Ruby Lane, and that’s been how I’ve been selling vintage costume jewelry for the last seven, eight years. It’s been a journey that has progressed over the years and is still happening.
Sharon: I want to make sure everybody knows that the book—we’ll talk more about the book, but “McClelland Barclay: Painter of Beautiful Women and More” is available on Bijoux Vintage.
Patricia: Yeah, that’s right through my store, Bijoux Vintage. Bijoux is with an “X.” It’s the French word for jewels.
Sharon: How did you encounter McClelland Barclay? I had never heard of him before.
Patricia: That’s amazing, Sharon, for someone of your background and knowledge, but I can understand it because he isn’t the best-known maker of costume jewelry. I first encountered him when I bought my first costume jewelry book in 1999. It was Fred Rezazadeh’s book “Costume Jewelry: A Practical Handbook and Value Guide.” Fred showed two pictures of jewelry by McClelland Barclay. One was of a sterling silver wishing well pin, and the other was a late Art Deco necklace with red and clear rhinestones. He said in his book, “If ever you come across jewelry by this man, buy it without hesitation, because it is not only among the rarest costume jewelry made in America, it is among the best. If you don’t buy it when you see it, you may never have the opportunity again.” Well, I was hooked. From then on, I started seeking out McClelland Barclay’s jewelry, which was originally really hard to find, but around that time, in 1999, I discovered eBay. I participated in many heated auctions to buy some of the pieces I wanted. I’ve been collecting his jewelry for a long time.
Sharon: First, what makes it the best? Is it the prongs, is it the way it’s done? Also, what caught your attention about it? I love that you read about it in a book.
Patricia: I think it was the great difference between the two items shown. One was a sterling silver piece, and the other was a late Art Deco, early moderne kind of item, and they seem to be really distinct. When I started buying the pieces, I could see they were very well-made. They were signed “McClelland Barclay,” and I realized just by handling the jewelry that indeed they were well-made. The plating was good; the rhinestones were set in prongs and in some cases glued in. There was a distinctive style, and there seemed to be a mystique about the very name “McClelland Barclay” in this jewelry. Also, it was scarce. Officially the jewelry was only made between 1938 and 1943. McClelland Barclay died in World War II in 1943, so the production of the jewelry ceased at that point. So, there was the scarcity factor. There was the quality factor, and something about it just spoke to me.
I would say that I love all sorts of other jewelry and I don’t wear a whole lot of McClelland Barclay jewelry. I do have a sterling bracelet on today. I often wear sterling pieces rather than the gold-plated rhinestone moderne pieces, but it was the person behind it; it wasn’t just the jewelry. The mystique about him, when I started learning more, was that he was a naval officer doing art aboard a ship that was torpedoed in the Pacific in July of 1943. There was a charisma there that drew me in and has kept my passion going for all these years.
Sharon: He was first known for his advertising illustrations, is that right?
Patricia: Yeah, that’s true. When I was doing research for the jewelry that I wanted to buy, not only on eBay but on other online sites and auctions, I started seeing all these pictures of McClelland Barclay illustrations, McClelland Barclay sculptures, McClelland Barclay designs of bookends and other metal products, his naval art, fine art, marine art, fashion designs and other designs he had done. I realized he had many, many facets to his creative output, and although I came at him first from the jewelry angle, most people probably knew him as an illustrator before they learned about the other aspects of his life.
Originally, because I was doing research about his jewelry and writing articles about it, I intended to write a book about McClelland Barclay jewelry because there was really nothing written about his jewelry; a bit about his life, but not much about the jewelry. Then, when I discovered all these others facets of his life, I said, “I can’t ignore these. Why not do an illustrated biography?” That’s what I ended up doing after 20 years of meandering research. Not 20 years non-stop, because I did take breaks because of medical factors or family situations, but basically I traveled to several places in the U.S. tracking down information about McClelland Barclay to complete the picture. I was lucky enough to discover his memoirs, which are hand-written notes. These really contributed to my understanding of this man who was passionate about life, a great athlete and as I said, a multi-talented guy. His passion for life engendered my passion, and here we have a book. So, there you go. I often say blame it on Fred Rezazadeh or his words about the rarity of this jewelry and showing those two pieces. I kind of think McClelland somehow chose me. I couldn’t let this go, the project, although on many occasions, I said, “No, I can’t do this.”
Sharon: It’s a big undertaking.
Patricia: It was. I did eventually write about his illustration art in a magazine called “Illustration,” which is one of the best-known magazines about illustration art and is sent all over the world. I was studying his jewelry and his illustration art, and those articles were the basis for chapters, but then it was all the other stuff I needed to research and write and get a manuscript. That’s how that all came up.
Sharon: Was he known for his jewelry while he was alive, or was it just, “Oh by the way, I do jewelry”?
Patricia: In 1938, there started to be articles in Vogue and Women’s Wear Daily, which was a trade magazine of that period and still exists, I believe. It was a trade magazine about jewelry and fashion, and there were articles that started to appear saying that Rice Weiner of Providence would be manufacturing this jewelry. In 2006, I arranged an interview after I discovered that Howard Weiner, the son of the cofounder of Rice Weiner and former CEO of the company, was still alive and living in Providence. I interviewed him and he was able to tell me some stuff about McClelland Barclay jewelry that was a secret and, for me, quite a bombshell. I write about that in my book for the first time. So, there are few discoveries that you will learn about in the book.
Sharon: Maybe it’s just me, but why do you think he’s not as well-known as other jewelers such as Miriam Haskell or Shriner?
Patricia: I’ve thought about that. I think the big names like Haskell and Boucher and Shriner and Pennino and Aubé or Kramer, some of these names are highly collected within the vintage costume jewelry collecting population. They were produced for longer, so they’re readily available, and there has been more research, more articles about those particular lines. Their founders were—Miriam Haskell was a very interesting person, or there’s Boucher coming from the fine jewelry tradition into costume jewelry. They had very interesting pasts.
It was probably starting in the late 1980s that people became interested in vintage jewelry and started writing about it. There were books and there were art books, but McClelland Barclay, until I came along, really didn’t have people writing about him. I also think the scarcity of the jewelry has maybe made it less collectable, but I think with more information available online and with people able to buy more of the jewelry, I know I have people interested in it who live in different parts of the world. I would say there is a growing interest, but it’s still more of perhaps a niche market.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. So you’re saying if I find a piece of his at a flea market, I have to be careful not to get into fistfight over it.
Patricia: I think so, or don’t let on that you know who it’s from.
Sharon: That’s interesting, because I wouldn’t have known if I was looking at something of his. Talking about the costume jewelry market today, what do you see? They say that millennials aren’t interested in fine jewelry or other jewelry, antique jewelry. What do you see in the costume jewelry market?
Patricia: I think it’s true to some degree, maybe to a large degree, that millennials aren’t as interested in costume jewelry as people who are older, but I think nonetheless they love jewelry. If we can educate them on vintage costume jewelry, I think there will be more collectors and buyers. Right now in my Ruby Lane shop, for example, I’ve been selling quite a few pairs of earrings, classic styles from the 60s to the 80s, clip-on earrings and drop earrings. Pearl drops are popular. Sterling bangle bracelets are really sought out. Eisenberg 1970s enamel pieces, especially the sets and unusual color combinations, are in demand. While I don’t generally sell Victorian jewelry, it does very well, especially fine jewelry, as does genuine Art Deco pieces; they’re very collectable. Good pieces by top names like some of those we mentioned, Haskell, Boucher, Kramer, Mazer and so on, they always sell well. Novelty Bakelite items are popular—not your run-of-the-mill bangles, plain bangles, but maybe deeply-carved bangles or novelty pins, for example. Scandinavian jewelry always has a strong market, but forget pedestrian jewelry. Sparkly brooches, even signed Austrian rhinestone pins aren’t as popular as they were maybe a decade ago. Pieces of Sherman jewelry are much less in demand than they were, but again, rare, top-quality pieces will still sell well. European items, like jewelry by Coppola e Toppo, are in demand, as are top Mexican-produced sterling jewelry. Spratling, of course, is a name most people recognize, but Pineda, Matilde Poulat, these names are sought after.
In terms of colors, think seasonal. Now we’re in the summer, so people are looking for bright colors and light-looking jewelry. Last year in 2020, there was a color produced called millennial purple and it was popular—shades of lilac, lavender and purple. The 2021 Pantone color of the year is—actually, it’s two colors, ultimate gray and illuminating yellow, and you’ll see these colors in fashion and also in jewelry. If you want to be on trend in terms of the colors you choose, you could check out the Pantone color recommendations. You can find vintage costume jewelry in any color you’d like. I would say if you want to be not only on trend, but beyond trends, you should create your own style. Choose the jewelry you like, the type of jewelry, and wear it, and eventually you will be known as a person who has a personal style. I think that’s important, rather than wearing what is popular in terms of what the general masses are buying. It’s always good to be ahead of the curve. That would be my recommendation: create your own style with vintage costume jewelry.
Sharon: Well, that’s the whole point of jewelry in a sense, isn’t it?
Patricia: It is. I think so, to be distinct and individual. That’s the beauty about vintage costume jewelry. You often find almost one-of-a-kind pieces, just because there were few made or they haven’t lasted or they’re so distinct that you’re going to be noticed in a crowd. If you’re someone who doesn’t like to be noticed, maybe you’ll not choose the big, chunky 60s and 70s pendants and earrings and bangle bracelets and so on, but for every taste there are types of jewelry. You can choose more delicate Art Deco-style pieces. That’s something that buyers will learn, that when something says “style,” it wasn’t made in that period, but it’s in the style of. So, you can find Art Deco-style or Edwardian-style jewelry that’s quite delicate. You don’t necessarily have to buy pieces that are going to make you stand out, but if that’s what you want, vintage costume jewelry is for you.
Sharon: Definitely. I’m curious, do you ever have McClelland Barclay on your site, or is it sold before it even gets online? Do you have collectors that you call and say, “I have a piece”? Does it ever make it online? I guess that’s the question.
Patricia: I have some pieces online right now in my shop, Bijoux Vintage. They’re actually duplicates, because a couple of times I’ve forgotten that I already owned a certain piece. At some point a few years ago, I decided I’d better do an inventory of my collection. I went through and discovered that I did have two of one brooch or two types of necklaces or bracelets or something, so a few of those pieces are for sale online, and they’re still in my shop. I haven’t decided whether I’m going to try to sell my collection as a whole or sell it individually. I have sold pieces individually to a couple of collectors, if they have their eye on some particular piece they know I own that they are interested in buying.
At this point, I can’t decide whether I will market the collection, because I do have some pieces that are probably the rarest McClelland Barclay pieces. They are shown in my book. There’s a cuff bracelet, very much in the style of Trifari’s Empress Eugenie series, but it is signed “McClelland Barclay.” There’s another one, very similar, that is unsigned. There are sterling rings that were made to go with the late sterling pieces, and some sterling charm bracelets are very rare. I have two pieces with hang tags. As I said, in 20 years, I’ve only come across two pieces that I was able to buy at any rate that had McClelland Barclay hang tags on them. I guess like the Delizza & Elster, the Juliana Jewelry Reference, when there was a hang tag there you could identify it, but luckily these pieces are marked as McClelland Barclay.
In my book, I also show a collection of head jewelry from 1942 to 1943. These are sterling silver head designs. They’re women from different nationalities that are portrayed in these brooches. I have seen a couple of those pieces individually, but to get five of them—I don’t know if there are any more out there. I haven’t seen any other designs, but I do have the five that I’ve seen over the years. It’s taken me a long time to put the collection together. So, whether I will at some time market it as a collection or start selling individual pieces, I haven’t yet decided.
Sharon: It sounds like it’s going to be tremendously marketable however you decide to do it. Let me remind everybody because it’s a beautiful book: it’s “McClelland Barclay: Painter of Beautiful Women and More,” and you can get it on Patricia’s Ruby Lane Shop, which is Bijoux Vintage. For those who would like to know more about McClelland Barclay, it’s probably the only resource. If not, it’s a great resource, but probably one of the very few that’s comprehensive. Patricia, thank you so much for being with us today.
Patricia: Thank you, I would just add, Sharon, if people want a direct link to my shop, it’s www.RubyLane.com/shop/BijouxVintage. That will get you to my shop and my book.
Thank you again for reading. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kimberly Alexander
Dr. Kimberly Alexander teaches museum studies, material culture, American history and New Hampshire history in the History Department of the University of New Hampshire. She has held curatorial positions at several New England museums, including the MIT Museum, the Peabody Essex Museum and Strawbery Banke. Her most recent book, entitled "Treasures Afoot: Shoe Stories from the Georgian Era" traces the history of early Anglo-American footwear from the 1740s through the 1790s (Johns Hopkins University Press, 2018). Dr. Alexander was Andrew Oliver Research Fellow at the Massachusetts Historical Society (2016-2017) and is guest curator of “Fashioning the New England Family,” (October 2018- April 2019) at MHS. Her companion book, "Fashioning the New England Family," was published in 2019.
Additional Resources:
Treasures Afoot: Shoe Stories from the Georgian Era
https://pwb02mw.press.jhu.edu/title/treasures-afoot
Fashioning the New England Family
https://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/5368
Photos:
Treasures Afoot - book stack with c. 1780s silk satin shoe, made in Boston, MA
Silver and paste stone shoe buckles, c. mid-18th century, French or English; in original 3shagreen, silk lined case. Collection of the author.
Silver thread embroidery with spangles. Collection of the author.
Advertisement for gold lace, 1734
James Davis, shoemaker, near Aldgate, London, c. 1760s, Courtesy Metropolitan Museum, public domain. https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/112645
Transcript
As an architectural historian with a relatively small shoe collection, Professor Kimberly Alexander didn’t anticipate becoming an expert on Georgian shoes. But when she encountered a pair of mid-18th century shoes with a curious label, she quickly realized the potential that shoes have to help us understand history and material culture. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the commonalities between shoes and jewelry, why shoes are a powerful way for women to express themselves, and how the historical shoe industry can help us understand the Colonia era in America. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, while we’re still talking about jewelry, we’re looking at it from a different angle. My guest is Kimberly Alexander, author of “Treasures Afoot: Shoe Stories from the Georgian Era.” Kimberly is a historian and Professor of Material and Museum Culture at the University of New Hampshire. We’ll hear all about her own journey as well as some of the history she tells of shoes in early America. Kimberly, welcome to the program.
Kimberly: Thank you so much for inviting me, Sharon. I’m very excited to talk to you today about something that’s been a fairly consuming interest and passion for quite some time, so thank you.
Sharon: I’m so glad to have you, and it has been. I was just rereading your introduction and acknowledgements. You say you’ve been doing this for the past eight years, so that’s quite a journey. Can you tell us what material culture is and how you got into this study? It’s so interesting that you’re a professor.
Kimberly: I’d be happy to do that. Material culture, in its broadest terms, is any item, artifact, object that is created by human endeavor, by human hands. It covers a broad swath of materials, from the work of indigenous peoples with beads and ceramics to shoemakers, which is where I’ve spent a tremendous amount of my interest and time, but also those who produce textiles, glass, furniture, paintings. All of those would be examples of a human endeavor to create an object. If you think about the early cave paintings and petroglyphs, that’s also part of a creative process which involves a human endeavor to create an object or a story. As we continue to explore these ideas of material culture, what I’m particularly interested in is the ability of material artifacts and objects to tell stories that are wrapped up in these elements of human endeavor. I think stories stay with us in ways that other types of information don’t always, because we can relate to it; we can put a hook on it. We can understand something more about someone else’s perspective or point of view from the study of material culture. I teach material culture and museum studies and these very much go hand-in-hand throughout public history.
My own journey was an interesting one. I completed my master’s and my Ph.D. in art history with a focus in architectural history. Some people who’ve known me for a long time are curious as to how I got from being an architectural historian to writing a book about Georgian shoes, and it’s actually not as surprising as you might think. I worked as a curator at the MIT Museum in Cambridge, where I was curator of architecture and design. From there I went to the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, and then to the Strawbery Museum in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. It was at Strawbery that I worked not only with buildings, but also archeological finds and what they would tell us about the buildings themselves and human habitations. I worked with a wide of variety of different types of collections, and I found that it was more of a way that you envision the world around you. For me, if you think of a shoe as needing to support someone in their daily activities for a special event, it’s not that much different to think about how a skyscraper works. We need to have a good foundation on which to build. For me, it’s been a natural evolution.
The shoe that got me started on this sojourn, if you will, is the one that’s on the front cover of my book. It’s in the collection at the Strawbery Banke Museum. It is a mid-18th century Georgian shoe that’s been quite well worn, seen a lot of damage through time and wear, but inside was pasted a simple paper label and it read, “Rideout and Davis Shoemakers near Aldgate in London.” That made me immediately wonder, “How did this shoe end up in this collection in Portsmouth, New Hampshire? What was its journey?” That’s really what sent me on this eight-year—and I’m still working on it even though the book’s published, so now I’m up to 10 or 11 years on this topic, but that was the question that I started with. How did people acquire shoes and why were they saved? How was this shoe saved for all this time? I found over the course of my research there’s a lot more relevance even to how we organize today’s lives. You might keep a pair of shoes that you wore to run a marathon or that you wore to get married or for your first job interview. You may never wear them again, but they’re small, they’re portable and they are infused with some fiber of you and your experience. That’s what makes shoes so exciting.
Sharon: That’s really interesting. I’m thinking about the parallels between that and antique jewelry. As I’ve been culling my own collection, I look and say, “I may never wear that again, but I bought it here and I want to keep it as a keepsake.” I was looking at a piece I bought in Cuba and thought, “I may never wear it again, but it’s the only thing I’ve really bought from Cuba.”
Kimberly: Right.
Sharon: Why do people keep shoes? They’re small, they’re portable and they have memories, but why do they love shoes so much?
Kimberly: That is an interesting question. I had the chance to do some work with the Currier Museum in Manchester, New Hampshire, about five or six years ago. They were hosting an exhibition that originated in Brooklyn at the Brooklyn Museum of Art. “On Killer Heels” was the name of the exhibition—a fabulous show—but one of the things they did at the Currier was put out notebooks for women to write about their experiences with shoes. One notebook was “What were your best experiences?” or “What shoes do you remember?” and the other one was about shoes and feminism and wearing high heels. I went through them and eventually I hope, with the help of the Currier, to publish an article about it, because it’s really quite interesting.
Women who wrote about high heels in many cases wrote about them as being part of how they perceive themselves in power. Some women did see them this way as well as something that was uncomfortable that they were forced to wear at a certain time in their lives. Other women saw them as something that was part of their role as a professional in a male-dominated world. One woman, for example, wrote that she loved her three-inch heels with her business suits because everybody could hear her coming; they knew she was on her way and people scampered to find something to do. She also said, “It put me on this eye level with men in a way that, if I wasn’t wearing heels, I wouldn’t be.” That was one example that I thought was really interesting. Another example from a woman of roughly the same age talked about the fact that she had foot problems and had to turn in her high heels for flats because they were uncomfortable. This is all paraphrasing, but she said, “The change-over to flats made me feel invisible, like I’d given something up. I was wearing shoes like my mother or grandmother would wear.”
I don’t know if I really answered your question with these few examples, but I think shoes mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. As we’re moving through this Covid year-and-a-half pandemic, I think shoes have taken on an even different role again, as has fashion. People are used to their soft clothes. I was reading something recently on Instagram where somebody said, “Oh, I can’t believe I have to go to a meeting in person and put on hard pants.” I think the issue of levels of comfort has changed. They were already changed; I think they changed even more in this pandemic era. But, why do women love shoes? Any number of different reasons, and I’ve spoken to hundreds of women because I find it a fascinating topic.
By nature, you might not know this, but I’m actually a somewhat shy person; I have a lot of social anxiety. Once I started working on shoes, I found I could always ask a question about shoes, and everybody piles on and I don’t need to continue saying much more. I guess everybody has something, and in these notebooks from the Currier, there were these incredibly detailed responses to people responding to their worst experience in shoes. There was one young woman who wrote about going to this college party in her Candies, which were these wooden shoes, terribly uncomfortable, but they were all the rage as I recall. She had hot pink Candies with open toes. She just loved them and she knew she looked like a million bucks, but she ended up with the biggest blisters on her feet. I was an “I didn’t care because I knew I looked great” kind of thing. There’s a lot of self-image, for some people, wrapped up in something that seems as mundane as shoes.
The pair of shoes that I’ve kept out of my own collection and that I’ve carried with me—I grew up in Maryland; I’m now in New Hampshire—is a pair of Nikes from when I was on the cross-country team. I started at a private school, St. James, for my last two years of high school. I couldn’t even run the length of a football field. By the end of the semester, I was running five-milers and competing competitively. Those Nikes were symbolic of something really important, and I still have them. They are falling apart, but I still have them. What people decide to collect is also really interesting in terms of what people collect and save and the stories that go with those.
Sharon: That’s interesting. I’m not sure I have any shoes that I’ve saved. I’ve tossed them out and I might have had a sentimental pang, but I don’t think I have anything I’ve saved. I especially did not save from decades ago my three-inch heels, which I can’t even imagine. When I see women walking on those now, I’m like, “Oh, my god, how did I ever do that?” The shoes you focus on, you focus on the Colonial Era in America. Why is that, especially because you’re talking about shoes that came from London?
Kimberly: What it brought up for me, when I first started looking at the labels in women’s shoes from London, is that British Americans, in the time before the Revolution, there was a huge consumer culture revolution. You still conceived of yourself as British, so you wanted to be stylish as you would have been back home, not out on the periphery somewhere. So, you have these shoemakers in London who are exporting thousands and thousands of pairs of shoes to the colonies of all different types, from very, very high-end, some of which I show in my book, to examples for those who are not as—pardon the pun—well-heeled. The idea of this reliance on the market also meant there were shoes being made for everyday people and everyday wearers.
In the book, I talk a good bit about the growth of the shoe industry starting particularly in Lynn, Massachusetts, and the switch during the Revolution. There’s this pivotal decade from 1760 to the 1770s where Americans start saying, “Look, don’t be buying your shoes from Britain. Why are you going to be sending your money to the Crown and to British merchants and shoemakers? Why aren’t you supporting your local shoemaker and local businesses and putting money in the coffers of your neighbors?” It becomes a huge political issue, and we even seen Ben Franklin talking about that during the Stamp Act controversy, where he says that Americans are going to hold onto their clothes until they can make themselves new ones. Even something that might seem as straightforward as shoes becomes highly politicized during this time period.
All of this was of tremendous interest to me, but part of the reason I selected this time period and these shoes is that they are handmade—this is all obviously before the advent of machine sewing—and it also gave me a chance to talk about women’s voices, women’s perspectives that had previously been unheard. We read so much about the founding fathers and a few elite women, but what about the everyday person, the everywoman, everyman? Using shoes was a way I could talk about women who we otherwise would never have heard of. We would just know when they were born and when they died and possibly that they had a child, because that’s how the shoes came to us. It was sort of a reverse creating a genealogy or a biography and trying to give women a voice they didn’t have, because I had an object I could work with.
Sharon: Whatever you said brought to mind the fact that the pictures, the photos in here are just beautiful. I want to say the name of the book again, “Treasures Afoot: Shoe Stories from the Georgian Era” and tell everybody listening that it’s a beautiful book and an easy read. It’s history, but it’s a very easy, interesting read, especially if you have any interest in shoes. We also talked about the fact that with jewelry, taking something like antique shoe buckles and transforming them into bracelets or other pieces of jewelry has become so popular. Why do you think that is?
Kimberly: First, I do want to give a plug to my publisher. It’s Johns Hopkins University Press, if any of you are interested in the book. There are over a hundred illustrations in the book, most of which have never been seen before, that were taken specifically for this project. I have a huge debt of gratitude to 30 different museum collections around the world, so thank you for bringing up the visual qualities. It was a really exciting opportunity to be able to have that many color illustrations.
Back to your question about shoe buckles, for one thing, you didn’t have to have a pair of buckles for every pair of shoes; you could interchange some. Again, it goes back to things that you can save easily. You get a lot of pavé stone buckles more so than gemstones, although very, very rich people—the Victoria & Albert has a pair of shoe buckles, I think they were Russian in origin, that have actual sapphires and diamonds and rubies. I mean, wow. But what most people had would have been pavé stones that would have been set in silver or some other metal. Then they move onto leather.
One of the biggest things that happens is that there were so many buckles because you had shoe buckles for men and women. You also had breeches buckles for men, which would go at their knees for their breeches. You actually have a pretty large number of buckles which can be reused. By looking at the size, you can generally determine whether they were breeches buckles or shoe buckles, but that’s often a cataloguing error that you find about what the pieces were. A small breeches buckle, for example, can be wonderfully remade into a pin if you’ve got the pair. They’re very small. I’m sorry. We’re doing this over the phone and I’m doing hand gestures—
Sharon: No, no.
Kimberly: At any rate, they are smaller, so they’re very easy to convert into jewelry. They’re easy to save. You can pick them up online everywhere from eBay to Etsy. Now, the other thing is that there was a huge Georgian revival of shoes, of course, in the 1910s and 1920s, and you start having shoes that either have attached shoe buckles or occasionally are using shoe buckles again. So, you have a wide expanse of this sort of shoe jewelry, if you will, and it’s not just buckles; there were also shoe roses and flowers, things you could attach to your slippers to spiff them up. The idea of reusing these objects, the way people do with silk ribbon flowers, which appear on so many 18th century and early 20th century gowns, makes a tremendous amount of sense. I would say there are certainly as many pieces of jewelry that have been made from buckles as buckles that actually survived.
Sharon: I never realized there were breeches buckles. I guess it’s all lumped together in a sense.
Kimberly: The breeches buckles were smaller, and they would have attached to the knee tabs for men’s breeches. A man could have both breeches buckles and shoe buckles, and then occasionally you’ll see trends in the 19th and 20th centuries of buckles being used as hat ornaments and things like that. The versatility, I think, is probably what has kept them around. Plus, anytime you’re dealing with shoes, you’re dealing with the fragility of textiles and that’s a big thing.
Sharon: I’ll have to look more closely next time I look at what I think is a shoe buckle and say, “Oh, it’s possible it’s a breeches buckle.” It’s interesting when you talk about the trends, because in the past few years it’s been pearls. You’ve seen pearls in heels, and I think you have a couple of pairs of shoes where there are lots of rhinestones.
Kimberly: Yeah, if you want to take the idea of jewelry as it connects to footwear, many of the 18th century—well, 17th and 18th century—shoes were embroidered with metallic threads. You actually have real gold spun around a linen thread, which is then woven into the fabric of the shoes. You end up with this amazing amount of gold on your foot. You’ve got the shine—and again, this is largely elite wearers—but you have brocaded metallic threads in a shoe. Then you’ve got a shoe buckle. Hose and stockings often will have down the side of the leg what was known as a clock, which might be done in metallic threads. So, you also have precious metals being used as part of the textile process.
Sharon: It’s interesting to me that when you describe material culture, it’s such a broad subject and you homed in on shoes, and then even more specifically a certain period, the Georgian Era, the Colonial Era. Are you working on something now? What else is on your mind?
Kimberly: I have a book coming out this fall based on an exhibition I was very fortunate to curate at the Massachusetts Historical Society which is called “Fashioning the New England Family.” It looks at a wide variety of textiles from the 17th century, from what is known as a buff coat, a lightweight military—well, relatively speaking—coat from the 1630s, up through pieces in the early 20th century based on their collection. What I’m really interested in is this idea of storytelling, of reading textiles like text. What can you discern? Everything from why they were maintained to how they were made, and it’s astonishing the things we’ve been able to uncover.
As far as shoes go, I’ve been looking at issues of northern complicity in the shoe trade. Around the time of the Revolution, a number of shoe manufacturers in New England basically blossom from doing several hundred pairs of shoes to doing thousands of pairs of shoes. There’s one company in particular that I found during my research—I think I talk about it in the very end of my book—that started shipping thousands and thousands of shoes and I thought, “Well, that’s odd in this three-year time.” As it turned out, they were selling—the coded language was “for the southern trade” or “the Indies trade”—but essentially, they were selling shoes to enslaved field workers in the South. The coded language was “coarse, sturdy, cheap,” and so on.
When I started researching where the shoes were shipped, they were being shipped to Baltimore, to Norfolk, to Charleston, in this case from Salem and Boston. There are entire towns in New England that owe their existence and their lucrative businesses to being part of the slave trade. These things are true in the textile mills as well, but I’ve been focusing on shoes. This is very coded language, and I’ve been able to locate a few pairs of shoes that were actually made for enslaved workers, and we have letters from enslaved workers who talk about how uncomfortable those northern shoes were. They preferred in some cases to go barefoot; they were that uncomfortable. So, I’m working on that now as well as another publication.
Sharon: Wow! I look forward to seeing that. It sounds very interesting, and it really makes you think in terms of how they were supporting abolition and at the same time shipping the shoes down, right?
Kimberly: Right. You realize just how much these are no longer separate economies. It’s a national economy. They’re sending cotton up from the South to the North where it’s being processed into clothing and then being sent back down to the South or being sent to customers. It’s really complicated and some amazing scholarship is being done in this area.
Sharon: As you’re talking about the shoes and how you’re telling history through shoes, it makes me think about how hard it is to describe to people when you say you really love jewelry. They think you love big diamonds, but there’s so much history attached to jewelry, why it was done in a certain metal and at a certain time. There’s a whole journey behind it.
Kimberly: Yes, exactly. People assume I have a big shoe collection myself. I don’t. I have a few pairs of shoes that I really like, and people give me shoes now. For my classes, I’ve gotten some really fancy designer shoes that people picked up at yard sales. I use the textiles I have and the shoes I have in my classes so that students can actually hold things, touch things, examine them and learn from them, because you can’t walk into a museum and say, “Hey, let me hold onto that 1785 pair of silk pumps.”
Sharon: Right. I look forward to seeing your book when it comes out. That’s around the corner, and hopefully you’ll come back on and tell us more about that. Thank you so much for being here today.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for reading. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Rob Koudijs
Rob Koudijs is the founder and owner of Galerie Rob Koudijs, a 100-square-meter exhibition space located in the gallery district in the center of Amsterdam. The gallery specializes in contemporary art jewelry which communicates ideas, has sculptural qualities, and uses materials in innovative ways. The gallery represents a group of jewelry artists who produce work challenging the borders of the applied and the fine arts. As these artists come from all corners of the globe, the latest international developments are on display in regular solo shows and in the gallery’s collection. As well as showing jewelry, Galerie Rob Koudijs stocks a range of books and catalogues by the represented artists.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
EVERT NIJLAND
necklace ‘Red’; silver, glass
photo: Eddo Hartmann
NHAT-VU DANG
earrings ‘Dominique’; silver
photo: Ceyhan Altuntas
TERHI TOLVANEN
necklace ‘Lunatic’; silver, wood, windowpane oyster
photo: Terhi Tolvanen
ESTHER BRINKMANN
ring ‘20ba-4’; fine gold, iron, jade
photo: Esther Brinkmann
HELEN BRITTON
brooch ‘19B022’; silver, tiger eye, lapis lazuli, jasper
photo: Helen Britton
PAUL ADIE
ring ’Talk to Me’; silver, aluminium
photo: Paul Adie
Transcript:
Rob Koudijs knew he was taking a risk by leaving his original career path and opening an art jewelry gallery in Amsterdam. That risk paid off, because Rob Koudijs Gallery is still going strong nearly 15 years later, despite jewelry still being a niche art form. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he discovered his interest in contemporary jewelry, where he thinks the industry is headed, and why the Netherlands has a robust culture of art jewelry. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Rob Koudijs—I’m going to let him pronounce his name—founder of a leading art and jewelry gallery in Amsterdam. He’s also a leading figure in championing art jewelry. We will hear about his jewelry journey today. Rob, welcome to the program.
Rob: Thank you very much, Sharon.
Sharon: I’m so glad to talk with you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. How did you get involved in jewelry and art jewelry in particular?
Rob: Do you want to have the long story or the short one?
Sharon: We want the full story.
Rob: Then I will start where it all began. That was about 40 years ago. I met the man who is now my husband. He was starting architecture in Delft, and when I was in Delft, we went to an art gallery. They had jewelry and he thought, “O.K., I’m an architect. This jewelry is very conceptual, very architectural, and I can wear it.” He bought a piece from Joke van Ommen I don’t know if you know her, but Joke van Ommen was a Dutch artist. A few years later, she went to the United States and founded Jewelerswerk in Washington. I think that must be interesting for you as well. That’s how it started. It was not me; it was he who bought a piece, and then he got interested. We both were interested in art and design, but we didn’t know anything about contemporary jewelry. We thought about finding books about it. Well, there was nothing in the world, not at that time. We are talking about 1979. There was one book shop in Amsterdam and they had books—I don’t where they found them—about contemporary jewelry. I’m telling you about that art book shop because we were invited to a birthday party there. There we met Ruudt Peters —you probably know him—and he—
Sharon: Ruudt Peters?
Rob: Ruudt Peters, that’s how you pronounce it. It is a funny journey, because he invited us to his birthday party, and I’m talking about 40 years ago. There was a friend of his called Marie-José, and she had just started a gallery. She also started going to an art fair, and she invited us to come to that art fair. We went there, and I think within five minutes I started selling. I always say she discovered my talents in contemporary jewelry. She told me later on that she saw my enthusiasm about the work, so she asked me if I’d help her with the art fair. I did that for 10 years, only at my holidays, of course, because I had a totally different job; I was working in healthcare, psychiatry. I took vacations every year to help her with the art fair and to help her open the gallery. That’s what I did for 10 years; that’s how it started, and of course, I got a lot of inspiration from that.
We started buying jewelry—well, you know how it works. Before, there was not that much in the Netherlands. Marie-José just started. When you are getting interested in contemporary jewelry, you think, “This is fantastic, but where can I find it?” So, we went looking for galleries. We found one gallery and we started buying things, and we went to Gallery Marzee and started buying pieces. At one moment, we discovered there was another gallery that opened. That was in 1985, I think, and that was Louise Smit Gallery. So, there were some galleries. There was one in Delft as well, Louis Martin. I became involved in the jewelry world, but it was not my job. Shall I go on?
Sharon: Please.
Rob: After 10 years helping Marie-José she went to the big building where she is now. You probably have been there. Then we stopped working together. Later, we visited the Louise Smit Gallery and she said, “O.K., sit down. I’m here now for 10 years. I don’t see what’s going on in the jewelry world anymore, and I need a business partner.” It’s a long story, but I became business partner in the Louise Smit Gallery.
Sharon: Is that still going? I don’t know.
Rob: No, it’s not there anymore. It existed for 10 years and then I did it for 10 years. The 20-year celebration, I was still there. The idea was that she should focus on the big names, the big artists she was already working with, and it was my task to find new talents. That’s what I did, and I’m still working with them. I have to tell you—I wrote it down—we are talking about 25 years ago, and we started with lots of students, and most of them came from the Netherlands. They had all their education at Rietveld Academie, but we also went to Munich and then we found students there. I brought them into that gallery. I was a business partner, so I got the young talent over there, and that’s how it worked. We did it for 10, years and then very abruptly—is that how you say that?
Sharon: Yes.
Rob: It didn’t work out very nicely. She stopped our companionship, and that was that, my 20 years in contemporary jewelry. So I thought, “O.K., this was so nice.” I liked it so much. I did it next to my other job, and I thought, “O.K., I have to try it myself because if I don’t, I will regret it the rest of my life.” It was 2006, and a few months later—I don’t know, half a year later—in April 2007, I opened my own gallery. The idea was, O.K., there were two galleries in Amsterdam. There was one gallery in Delfts. I thought, “It’s crazy. We are a very small country. Contemporary jewelry is a niche in the art world, so will there a public for it?” But, I thought, “If I don’t do it— let’s give it a try, and if after a year I see it doesn’t work out, I will stop with it.” Well, that’s now 14 years ago and I’m still here. That’s more or less the story over 40 years and how it all started.
Sharon: Wow! I love the fact that you’re saying you realized you would regret it for your whole life if you didn’t do it. I think of things myself where I thought, “If I don’t this, I’ll just—” It didn’t work out, but at least I can try.
Rob: Exactly, that’s what I thought, and that’s how it all started. Of course, I was very dedicated to contemporary jewelry. Some artists stayed in the older galleries, but there were a lot of artists that needed a gallery. That’s what’s still going on now. There are not that many galleries in the world. So, I thought, “O.K., I’ll just give it a try,” and I didn’t regret it at all.
Sharon: There’s a handful of galleries in the world, and there are really not that many that were doing. There’s a handful. The majority seem to be in the Netherlands. There are not that many in the world. I don’t think there are a dozen.
Rob: It’s funny, because it’s not like that anymore, but at a certain moment, I think we had five galleries for contemporary jewelry in the Netherlands. At the moment, there are only two—well, the galleries with big names. It’s Marie-José and it’s me in Amsterdam. That’s because the other galleries closed, so there are only two galleries. It’s still a lot for such a small country.
Sharon: Why do you think that is? What is it that the Netherlands has, where you have two galleries or in the past had five, when the rest of the world has so few? It’s so unusual.
Rob: No, you’re right. I’ve thought it over a lot, and I’ve gotten that question many times as well. Probably it has something to do with—not now, but in the past. In the past, in the Netherlands, artists got very good grants. Museums bought contemporary jewelry, and there was a lot of publicity about contemporary jewelry. I think the focus was on contemporary jewelry. I don’t know why. We always say it has something to do with the 60s, when Dutch jewelers started. I don’t know why it happened that way, but I think the government was important. The grants, that’s what it’s all about, because otherwise most of the jewelry artists cannot live from what they are doing. When you get a grant, you can develop yourself, and that’s what happened. That’s why all these artists, the names I told you before, all these artists are still working. After 25, 30 years, they are still there and they are still successful. It has something to do with that.
What you see now is that there are no grants anymore, not for jewelry artists. There is no publicity. Museums don’t buy that much. There’s only one wonderful museum in the Netherlands. You probably have heard of it; maybe you’ve been there. It’s the CODA Museum in Apeldoorn, and they have the biggest collection of contemporary jewelry at the moment. Through the years, Stedelijk Museum didn’t buy any more. Rijksmuseum, they have a nice collection, but they don’t buy. You can be successful, or a field in the art world can be successful if there’s publicity, if there are grants, and if the museums are interested. There were a lot of exhibitions, like I said, but it’s all in the past. The jewelry is still there and the collections are there. The Stedelijk Museum has a big collection, and they started early. I don’t know how it is in the states, but they all started after the war, in the 50s, 60s buying contemporary jewelry. I don’t know if that’s the reason, but that’s what we think. It has something to do with it.
Sharon: It makes a lot of sense. I’m interested in the fact that you use the term contemporary, because if you were going to Google contemporary jewelry, you wouldn’t see a lot of these names come up. You’d see more—I don’t mean to knock it, but run-of-the-mill or production jewelry as opposed to art jewelry. But you use contemporary jewelry. Do people know what you’re talking about when you use it? Suppose you are at an art fair. I’m just interested in the fact that you use the term contemporary jewelry as opposed to art jewelry.
Rob: When I use my hashtags on Instagram, I use art jewelry, studio jewelry, contemporary jewelry; I use them all, because I think in the world, not only in the Netherlands, we use all those names. There is no specific name for it, as far as I know.
Sharon: There isn’t. It’s such a nebulous name. There’s not one name that says what it is.
Rob: Yeah, you can call it art jewelry or art you can wear, sculpture to wear. I think the problem is when you are talking about a painting or a sculpture, well, that’s what it is. You have contemporary sculpture and you have antique sculpture, but it is very difficult. Like I said, it is probably because it is a niche in the art world, and you want to be different from the big jewelry shops, somewhere where they sell the gold and the diamonds. That’s not what we are doing and what our artists are doing, but there’s not a specific name for it, no.
Sharon: What was it that attracted you initially? Was it the art aspect of it? You could have been attracted to gold and diamonds. What was it that attracted to art and jewelry?
Rob: No, it’s more the integration of the artistic concepts. It’s art and it’s design and it has craft. Craft, for me, is very important, all the crafts that are used and the combination of that. Like I said before, my husband and I were interested in art and design and architecture, but this integrates it all. We could wear it, because especially 40 years ago, it was very common for men to wear jewelry. That’s why we started with geometrical jewelry. I think it has something to do with that. It integrates a lot of things. It’s small sculpture. I talk to a lot of collectors, and if you are collecting sculpture, for instance, or paintings or photos, all your walls are full. When you are collecting contemporary jewelry, you have the most wonderful pieces of art, and you can put them in a drawer and go on till you die.
Sharon: This is a question I have; I’ve thought about it a lot. What is a collector? When do you cross the line from being someone who is just an enthusiast into being a collector? When do you become a collector?
Rob: Some people are opposed very much to the word collector. For a long time, we didn’t like to be collectors. We just bought things we liked and we could wear. At a certain moment, you have over a hundred pieces, and then other people are calling you a collector. I know the same thing happens with clients in the gallery, for instance. They also don’t like to be called a collector, but at a certain moment, they have so many good and strong pieces. Then other people start calling you a collector, and then you are a collector whether you want to be or not.
Sharon: Another question, perhaps not so easy to answer: When you say good and strong pieces, what’s a good and strong piece? Is a good and strong piece one that I love? Maybe it’s by a certain artist.
Rob: When someone asks me that, I always give the same answer: It is very personal. Our personal is that we like architectural, sculptural jewelry. We like brooches because we are men and we don’t wear necklaces. So, our focus is on that. When we say it is strong, it has to do with that. It has to be sculptural, and of course it also has something to do with the artist. You follow the artist and think, “O.K., this is new. This is interesting,” because it’s also important that there is somewhat of a development in what an artist is doing. I think that makes it a strong work, but it is very personal. What you think is good or strong or special, I cannot say it for the whole world. It’s only for me.
Sharon: As a gallerist, you must be inundated with artists saying, “Are you interested in carrying my work?” or who come to you and say, “Let me be in your gallery.” How do you sift through all of this?
Rob: That is a very difficult part of being a gallerist, because you have to disappoint people, especially disappoint artists. There are not that many galleries and there a lot of artists. Most of the time when people reach out to me by email or they come to the gallery, I always say, “Send me some images and don’t expect me to react.” That doesn’t sound very kind, but if I can’t do that, I should hire someone to do that for me, because we got a lot of questions about it, “I want to show my work in your gallery.” We are always looking if it is an adjustment to the artists we have in the gallery, for instance. I think that’s very important. And is it new? Is it something special I haven’t seen before? With the adjustment to the other artists, I don’t want three or four artists there that look the same. I’m not interested in that. That’s what’s happening, and most of the time, to be honest, we find the artists ourselves.
Sharon: At shows?
Rob: Yeah, it doesn’t happen often that people reach us and send us emails or show us work and we say, “Oh yeah, that’s fantastic for the gallery.” It doesn’t happen that often, no.
Sharon: Do you find them at shows like Schmuck, or what’s the one in the Netherlands?
Rob: No, there is not that much in the Netherlands. Schmuck is very important, but there is something else. We’ve known all the artists so along already, 25, 30, 35 years, and they know other artists. Sometimes they say, “I know a guy, I know a girl. Have a look at it.” That helps us as well. We don’t go to all the graduation shows. For us, it’s important to go to Schmuck in Munich.
Sharon: We should tell people what Schmuck is. I’m sorry; go ahead. Schmuck being the art jewelry week in Munich.
Rob: In Munich, yes. Schmuck is actually the German word for jewelry, but everybody calls it Shumuck now. Things are changing. We went to all the graduation shows, and of course we follow the artists who are graduating and want to give them a platform in the gallery. We want to show young artists, but that has changed. It’s not that strong in school anymore, not for contemporary jewelry. There are not many artists from the Rietveld Academie anymore, so we have to find them all over the world, and that’s what we do. We have artists from all over the world, from New Zealand, from Austria, from the United States. Most of them come from Europe, but we are a very international gallery.
Sharon: Do you have clients from all over the world? People buying from the gallery all over the world?
Rob: Yes, that has a changed as well. When we started, it was mostly from the Netherlands or from Europe, when people could travel, of course, but that has changed as well. The world is smaller. We have Facebook. We have Instagram. We make online catalogues. You probably have seen a few from us. We reach out to our clients in the world, and there are some very good collectors in the world, especially in the United States. So, we have clients from all over the world, from all countries in Europe, from the United States, and from Australia. These are the countries from where we get clients.
Sharon: In terms of dealing, I don’t know how it’s been in the Netherlands with Covid. Have you been doing more online with Covid, or even before that?
Rob: We did a lot. Like I said, I’m very active on Facebook and especially Instagram, because I think it’s an important medium at the moment. During lockdown, I think we did something by email every week, by Facebook, by Instagram; we sent out to the world. We had the idea while we were in lockdown in the beginning of last year. We were closed for over four months, and then we were closed for 3.5 months. I just opened up a few weeks ago. So, we had to reach out to our clients by email and make it interesting. That’s why we started to make those online catalogues to seduce our clients.
Something else was very important first—that’s how it actually started. We had to let them know we are closed, but we are there and we still have those wonderful artists who we work with, and they’re making new work. We asked them to make new work. They did, and we want to show it to you, and it worked. It kept us through. You have seen my place; it’s not for nothing that you rent a place like that. We needed to pay the rent and so on. It was tough, but it worked because we worked very much online in the last year. I don’t think we’ll stop, even though we’re open again. We discovered what we could do to find a bigger audience.
Sharon: What do you see as the trends, or where do you see the global market in art jewelry going? Do you think it’s an increasing interest? Some people think no, it really hasn’t changed. I like to think it’s growing, but that’s just my American optimism. Where do you see art jewelry? Do you see it expanding the market? Do you see more galleries opening, more interest, more people understanding it? I can’t claim to understand it, but I’m just asking what you think.
Rob: Let’s just say it this way, Sharon: I hope so. I don’t know. What happened in the art world with photography—that’s already quite some time ago—it started to explode and was seen as real art. I hope that would happen to contemporary jewelry as well, but not at this moment. There are fewer galleries. All the galleries are old, more or less; there are a few younger, but most of them are old, so it will stop. I don’t know. I think the biggest problem is that it’s wonderful to do it. It’s the best thing I have done in my life, but if you are young and you have a family and you have to live from it, I don’t think it will work out. It will be very difficult; otherwise, you have to commercialize, and that’s what I don’t want. If I should do it that way, then I stop immediately.
Sharon: When you start selling the T-shirts with the gallery name.
Rob: Yes, for instance. That can be a problem. You probably follow the jewelry world as much as we do, and you know when you go to auctions, we always hope the jewelry will get a higher price. Sometimes it works, but it has to be gold. You see at auctions that good pieces from good artists from the last 50 years, they go up in price, but it has to be from precious materials. Well, not all our artists’ work is made of precious materials. They work with wood and glass and textile. They also work with gold and silver and pearls and diamonds, but they use it not for the sake of gold or diamonds. They use it as their material to express themselves. So, I hope it will get better, especially for all those artists who are working so hard, but it still is a niche in the art world.
Sharon: Yes, very much so. Thank you so much for talking with us today. I’m glad things have opened and that you are expanding in the online world so more people can see what you’re doing and what you have. Thank you so much for talking with us today.
Rob: Thank you, Sharon.
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What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marie-José van den Hout
Born in Roermond in the Netherlands, Marie-José van den Hout grew up in a family of three generations of ecclesiastical gold- and silversmiths. It was in the workshop of her grandfather, a renowned craftsman who specialized in repoussé and chasing, that her passion for gold grew and flourished. Alongside two of her brothers, Marie-José worked in her father’s studio before studying gold- and silversmithing and then fine art at the Academy of Fine Arts in Maastricht. She established Galerie Marzee in Nijmegen in 1979 and was honored with the title of Officer of the Order of Oranje-Nassau at the gallery’s 40th anniversary celebrations in June 2019.
Additional Resources:
Openingstijden / opening hoursdi-vr 10.00-18.00 uur, za 10.00-17.00 uur Tue-Fri 10am-6pm, Sat 10am-5pm
Photos:
Otto Künzli, Quidam XVIII, 2019, brooch; Corian, plastic, operculum, acrylic paint, steel, 75 x 87 mm Rudolf Kocéa, Tears, 2019, necklace; fine silver, enamel, stainless steel, pendant: 80 x 110 x 20 mm, L 600 mm Barbara Paganin, Rose, 2017, necklace; polymethylmethacrylate, oxidised silver, gold, 200 x 200 x 20 mm Vera Siemund, untitled, 2019, necklace; enamelled copper, copper, steel, silver, 100 x 60 x 40 mm Dorothea Prühl, necklace, Raben im Kreis (Ravens in a circle) 2020, titanium and gold Transcript:Located in a former grain warehouse on the banks of the River Waal in the Netherlands, Galerie Marzee is the largest (and some would say the most influential) art jewelry gallery in the world. The gallery was founded in 1979 by Marie-José van den Hout, who has spent her lifetime immersed in jewelry, goldsmithing, and art. She joined the podcast to talk about the exhibitions she’s working on now, why she dedicates so much time to helping art and jewelry students, and how an exhibition of combs put Galerie Marzee on the map. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Marie-José van den Hout, founder and owner of Galerie Marzee, the world’s largest art jewelry gallery. The gallery is located in the Netherlands. Marie is a highly regarded leader in the field of art jewelry and has an interesting story, which we’ll hear about today. Marie-José, welcome to the podcast.
Marie: Thank you.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. You studied metalsmithing. When did you start liking art jewelry or jewelry?
Marie: I started at eight, I think. Well, my journey started when I was four or five years old. My great-grandfather, although I never knew him, and my grandfather and my father were gold and silversmiths, but they didn’t make jewelry; they made objects for Roman Catholic churches. I grew up with all these objects, which now are exported from Europe to America because there are too many and museums can’t have them anymore. Anyway, when I was four years old, my father made a ring for me, and I was very proud of that ring. I was not interested in jewelry. He sometimes made rings for friends or for my mother, but he made a ring for me when I was a child and I took it. I was allowed, against his wishes to be honest, to take it to kindergarten. In the class, I very proudly showed this ring. At the time, those classes were huge, 40, 50 children, so it went around the class and it never came back to me, the ring. I was very shy; I didn’t dare say anything to the teacher, so I went home without a ring. Many years later, I had an exhibition with Manuel Vilhena. He’s a Portuguese jeweler. He had his exhibition and he made a ring from a string, just a simple string, and he said, “This is your ring. I know why you started the jewelry gallery; because you’re still looking for your ring.” I found this such a beautiful story.
So, my journey started when I was four, but to be honest, it didn’t really, because I was not interested in jewelry at all, not a bit. I always used to like drawing and painting. In those times, you learned to do those crafts at home, and the best teachers are your parents. At the academy where I went in Maastricht, they once asked my father—they wanted him to be a teacher at the academy, and he said, “No, no, no, no, I’m not interested.” But then we, my two brothers and me, went to the academy. We had to, because you were not allowed to work as a gold and silversmith and make pieces when you didn’t have the—what do you call this? The mark you have.
Sharon: The hallmark?
Marie: Yes, you had to go to the academy to get this hallmark. We did go there every day, the three of us by car. It was two hours’ drive from our home, but in the end, it turned out I was not that interested, so I changed direction and went to painting and sculpture. Sharon, there is something I’m not that proud of. I met a man—I was 20, 21—my first boyfriend, who I thought was such a fantastic artist and painter that I stopped doing that altogether and I returned to gold and silversmithing. In the end, we worked at home designing, doing all the crafts.
As a child, I loved to go to my grandfather. He was very well-known for making those figures in gold and silver, and he was invited all over the world, all over Europe to restore church treasures. Although we are Dutch, my father was born in Cologne, because my grandfather at the time worked in Cologne restoring the treasury of the Dome of Cologne. My aunt was born in Brussels in Belgium, where my grandfather worked for the Dome of Brussels, and so on. He worked in Paris. At the same time, what he did—I loved my grandfather—after his work, he was always sitting in museums. You know those people who are sitting there and copying famous paintings? I once went to Paris to a museum, and I saw a painting and thought, “No, this can’t be. My grandfather did this.” It turned out it was a famous painting by Monet. So, my life, my youth, was all in art, in gold, painting and silversmithing. But in the end, I didn’t do all those things because I married, and within a year I had three children because I have twins.
Sharon: Not much time between.
Marie: Not that much.
Sharon: With everything else, yeah.
Marie: In the meantime, my father had died, and my two brothers didn’t make those church things anymore. There was not much interest in those at the time, so they turned to jewelry. Both made jewelry, but my younger brother—I liked him very much; we had a very good relationship—he asked me, “I think you could be a very good shopkeeper and I would like to start a shop in Roermond.” He lived in Roermond, which is 100 kilometers south of Nijmegen, and he had several shops already in Holland. I said, “O.K., I’ll do this. It’s possible do this while having children.” So, I did this for some time. It was modern jewelry, but not the kind I was interested in.
At the time, I visited another gallery, and I have to confess I was much more interested in the sort of art jewelry there. So I changed my policy; I went everywhere to look at this sort of jewelry. In the end, my brother was not so happy with my change of thought, and he said, “I don’t want you to have my jewelry anymore,” which, Sharon, was a shame, because it was good jewelry. It sold very well. It was mostly gold and diamonds, but in a modern way. So, suddenly I could hardly survive, because the sort of jewelry we are dealing with now is very hard to sell.
Sharon: I’m sorry—did you say very hard to sell?
Marie: Very hard to sell, yes. It’s really difficult. Anyway, I worked very hard, 12 hours a day. I was always working. My children were complaining. They said to me—I have three children—and they said, “Mom, you hear me, but you’re not listening.” Now, they’re proud of me, and two of them, when I stop, will carry on with the gallery. This is more or less the beginning of this journey. In the very beginning, the work I showed looked like what Galerie Ra showed. In the end it was completely different, because I traveled through Europe, traveled to academies, traveled to artists and so on, and I had my complete own style. It’s what I’m doing now.
Sharon: So just in case people don’t about Galerie Ra, can you tell us a little bit about that?
Marie: Galerie Ra in Amsterdam was a small gallery funded by Paul Derrez and Louis Martin, two of them. Later on Paul carried on on his own, and last year, after I think 40 years, he stopped with his gallery. He had to rent a shop in Amsterdam, and once every five years you have to have a new contract, and he thought, “This is too long for me. In the meantime, I can’t stop because I still have to pay the rent.” So, he stopped, and last week on Koningsdag, King’s Day, he got a medal from the king. He is an officer in the Order of Orange-Nassau; that is how our kingdom is called. I had this honor two years ago with the 40th anniversary of the gallery. In 2019, I also got this order. You can compare it with OBE in Britain.
Sharon: Wow!
Marie: It is sort of like that. It’s a huge medal. If people would have asked me, “Would you be interested in having anything like this?” I would say, “What nonsense. No, please, no,” but at the anniversary in 2019—
Sharon: The 48th anniversary.
Marie: I was so surprised and I was so proud.
Sharon: That’s quite an honor, wow!
Marie: It was really nice. They said, “We were so frightened you would say”—I told you I can be quite undiplomatic—“Oh, what a horrible medal,” because it’s not a very nice design. It’s old, of course, but I didn’t say it. I was very honored. All of this was based on the fact that I do so much for young artists.
Sharon: You do.
Marie: With the annual graduate show.
Sharon: Tell us about the annual graduate show. It’s so well-known.
Marie: I started this 30 years ago. I’m now in this beautiful building. It’s a huge building overlooking the River Waal, and it has four stories. At the time, I was in a smaller building, not that small really, but I wanted to do something completely different. I said, “I’d like to work with young people and see if I can guide them or travel with them in their development.” I started making exhibitions that were quite small. I had an academy in Amsterdam. I had Maastricht and Utrecht, and I think Holzheim in Germany. It was quite small, but it in end, it developed. Now, it’s 740, 750 schools from all over the world. Mostly there are between 17 and 19 participants, and all the floors of the gallery are full of young graduate work.
What can I say about this? In the beginning, there was just the show and the opening. Later on, 10 years ago, I started having a symposium on Monday. The participants came to Holland from everywhere, from America, from Australia, from Japan. So then on Monday, all the participants showed their work to their colleagues. There was this huge show, and, for instance, the first artist took one of her or his pieces out of the show, put it on the next graduate—so he or she was the model—and then they started talking about the work. It went on and on, sort of like—what do you call it?—it went from one to the other. Of course, they were not used to talking in public, so it was quite emotional. People were very nervous, but it was heartbreakingly beautiful. Also the fact that they came from all over the world, it was really something. People traveling from America, it’s not that expensive to travel to Holland, but from Australia, it’s a really expensive trip. From Japan it’s really expensive, so it’s very good they came.
Then 10 years ago, I started to award the Marzee Prize, the Marzee Graduate Prizes. They were awarded to six to eight people, but sometimes there was so much beautiful work that I had 10 people. The prize consisted of a workshop in Ravary, an estate in Belgium. Some friends of mine built a large workshop there. It’s paradise, where they can work for a whole week. Everyone has a bedroom and we cook together; we talk together. It’s working deep into the night; also drinking deep into the night. Unfortunately, last year we didn’t have this workshop. We are not allowed to travel. This year there will probably not be a workshop, either, so that’s a pity. The borders are still closed. We are not allowed to travel to Germany, which from here is only five kilometers. Belgium is a bit further, but we are not allowed.
A few years ago, also to try to help young people, I started Intro in Amsterdam. My son, who you just saw, has studied in Amsterdam. He’s a lawyer. I rented a place for him 30 years ago. I still have that place, but it was redone two years ago and made into a gallery workshop. In 2019, I was awarded another prize, Gallerist of the Year 2019 by RISD, Rhode Island School of Design.
Sharon: Wow!
Marie: Yeah, maybe you didn’t know that.
Sharon: Now it’s coming back. Yes, I do remember that.
Marie: It was a real surprise. It was very nice. I had to travel to RISD because they set up a show for me in the museum. Then Tracy, the head of the department, said, “I would like you to participate and organize everything in Amsterdam at Intro. I would like for you to run this gallery for three years.” I was the Gallerist of the Year for three years, and we started to do this. The board liked it very much, so for a year we have had two internships there. You can live there; you can work there. It’s a beautiful workshop and a beautiful gallery. They make exhibitions with the graduates, but last year there was nothing because they had to return to America. They were not allowed to come here, but probably in August or September there will be two people from RISD again. Not everyone was allowed to participate in Amsterdam at Intro. We selected 20 people per year who could show their work and have exhibitions in Amsterdam. I hoped it would help, but we still have to see because it was interrupted by this horrible Covid disaster. That’s my graduate show. There is much more to it.
Sharon: Administering something like that is such a big task. Coming from a traditional background of jewelry and fine art, what attracted you to art jewelry? How did you transition?
Marie: The jewelry my brother made was not so far from what you call art jewelry. I’m not such a fan of the term art jewelry, although I don’t know what else we should call it. I don’t know. Jewelry was not only the thing I did. When the gallery existed for 10 years, I made an exhibition of combs.
Sharon: Clothes?
Marie: Combs, to comb your hair.
Sharon: Combs, O.K.
Marie: I did this because I thought a comb is a piece you can use, and I had objects in the gallery you could use. I also sometimes had exhibitions with fine arts, and I had jewelry. I had all three in the small gallery at the time, so I thought a comb has all those elements in it. It’s graphic, you can use it as a utensil, and you can wear it as a piece of jewelry. I asked 400 artists in the whole world to make a comb, and I selected 80 pieces for a traveling show. This was really the start of the gallery, because I had a fantastic graphic designer who made a book for it. I had an interior designer who made huge showcases for it. I traveled to museums to ask if they would be interested to have the exhibition after it had been in my gallery. I had the luck that I went to Rotterdam to a famous museum, Boijmans van Beuningen, and they said they would gladly have the exhibition, but they wanted it as a premiere. That was not what I wanted, because I wanted it for my 10thanniversary, and then they said, “No, we want it first.” It was a very good decision to do this, because after that, all the newspapers were full, all the magazines were full, and all the museums wanted to have this exhibition. I have had this exhibition in Tokyo, in Cologne, in Frankfurt, in Pforzheim. My name was there, and then I decided to buy 40 of those pieces. They are now in my collection. My collection is more than 2,000 pieces, I think, and they mirror the history of the gallery. That exhibition was the real start of the gallery. That’s when it started to become international.
Sharon: For anybody who hasn’t been to the current gallery, the building is incredible. It’s worth going just to see the building itself. How long have you been in that building?
Marie: This is a building channeled with history. There is a history to this building. The town of Nijmegen owns the building, and it used to be a grain warehouse in the beginning of the 20th century. It’s around 1900 or even older. They wanted to tear it down to have a hotel here, a Holiday Inn, if you can imagine, but there were some parties in town who wanted culture in this building. I had to fight Holiday Inn. I remember very well, Sharon, that Holiday Inn’s director called me and said, “Ms. Van der Hout, why don’t you let us buy the building and you can have the ground floor?” Sharon, you know those hotels that have a gallery on the ground, those galleries are mostly horrible. In the end, I won the fight. In 1992, the building was mine; I bought it, but it was ruined. I showed the architect the building, and we had to climb on ladders because the town had decided to tear it down and everything was taken out. The wooden floors were taken out. The only thing left were the beams and those beautiful walls, of course, but that was all. I climbed on that ladder and I fell down and broke my back.
Sharon: Oh my gosh!
Marie: I lost part of my memory, which is sometimes annoying. On the whole, it’s O.K., but I broke my back. I could have been in a wheelchair. When I fell down, I woke up after a half hour or an hour and walked to my art gallery. That seemed a bit strange, so they called a doctor and ambulance and I was taken to the hospital. They said, “You’re O.K. You can go because you walked,” and I said, “No, I can’t get up anymore.” Then I had this scan and they saw that my back was broken in three places.
Sharon: Oh my gosh, you got up and walked!
Marie: I was in a cast for a long time. I thought, “Maybe this is too big a task for me. Maybe this was a warning.” Then I thought, “Oh no, I’m going to build an elevator so everyone who is in a wheelchair can see all the floors.” Every day I’m glad I made that decision.
Sharon: The building is so fabulous. Did you have a vision for what you wanted? I’m sure you worked closely with the architect, but what was in your mind?
Marie: I had a bit in my mind, but my ideas at the time were that it should be wide and so on. I had a fantastic architect, a really fantastic architect, and he didn’t want it to be wide; he wanted the walls as they were. We have concrete floors because it was the only possibility. Thanks to this architect—he was a very well-known Dutch architect, by the way, because the town said, “We want this to be a fantastic architectural place. You can invite three architects and we’ll pay for that, but the architect you take, you will have to pay him yourself.” They never paid those other architects, by the way, but never mind. I’m so very glad with this architect, and sometimes I see him. Two years ago, he was married for I don’t know how many years, and he said, “Marie, I want to go visit the buildings in Holland I’m most proud of”—there are several museums he built—“and you have one of those buildings. If it’s O.K. with you, I’d like to have a party here.” He said, “You used it so well. It’s so well done now.” I travel a lot—not at the moment, of course—but every time I come home to my building, I feel relieved.
Sharon: It’s home.
Marie: It’s not only home, it’s my first building I remember very well. Once I went on a holiday, and I came back home and I stood in front of my first gallery. I was still in my car in front of the first gallery, and I said to someone, “I don’t want to get out. I don’t want to do it anymore.” Here, every time I come back, it’s rest and peace; it’s fantastic. I don’t know.
Sharon: It is an amazing building
Marie: And inside it’s fantastic, of course.
Sharon: You’re in a fabulous location. I want to let people know when they go to the gallery, they may need a lot of time because you have a lot of—it’s not one small gallery.
Marie: No, it’s not. I started collecting from the very beginning. I always bought something from my exhibitions, because if people didn’t do it, I had to do it. I have a huge collection, but the pieces I have from the beginning are maybe not that interesting. Since then, I have the best pieces. It’s fantastic. I have a huge collection of Dorothea Prühl, the necklace I’m wearing now—
Sharon: Say the name again.
Marie: Dorothea Prühl.
Sharon: Dorothea Prühl. It’s a fabulous necklace made of wood.
Marie: Yeah, there was an exhibition two years ago in New York. Do you know Nancy and Georgio?
Sharon: No.
Marie: They have the Magazzino, the museum for Italian Art near New York. It’s a fantastic, beautiful museum. Anyway, they had an exhibition about arte povera in New York, and there was a famous artist—I can’t remember the name; that’s my memory—who gave a talk there. The sculptor was there, a famous artist from Italy, and he came to me and said, “You have a fantastic necklace.” It was this necklace. I told Dorothea, of course, because that’s a famous sculptor and all her work is like this. There’s something else which may be interesting; you know I’m working with schools.
Sharon: No, tell us about that. It doesn’t surprise me, but tell me about that.
Marie: Apart from the private shows. Dorothea Prühl, for instance, she is from Eastern Germany.
Sharon: I just want to interrupt, because some people listening have never heard of Dorothea Prühl, who is one of the leading and most well-established art jewelers. Continue, I’m sorry.
Marie: She was teaching in Halle in former Eastern Germany. I got to know her work because I went to an exhibition in Halle with her and her class and another teacher. I saw the work and thought, “I would like to have this in the gallery.” The well-known German artist who was there with me said, “There’s no way she will do this. She doesn’t like Wessies.” Do you know Wessies? People from the west, Western Europe. But I thought, “You know what? I’m going to call her.” So, I called her, and then came this voice. She was a heavy smoker, Sharon, and I said, “I want to make an appointment with you. Is that O.K?” “Oh, yes.” It was sort of love at first sight.
Sharon: We understand.
Marie: Sometimes you have this immediate connection, so I went there. The work she did with her students was fantastic, and then and there I decided I was going to do school exhibitions. I said, “I want you to have an exhibition with your whole class in the gallery for five years. Every spring you will have an exhibition.” They did, and it was always a beautiful exhibition. I bought a lot of pieces for the collection from this exhibition. After those five years, I asked Iris Eichberg. At that time, she was teaching at an academy, and I asked if she would be interested in working with us. She said, “I can’t do it. I’m not happy with the level of what’s being done here.” Then I decided I would go to the Royal College in London first, with Otto Kunzli in Munich. Otto Kunzli had a show here for five years with his students, also in spring. Then I started to make it a bit shorter, three years with the Royal College with Hans Stauffer. He was the head of the department. At the moment, I’m working with Nuremburg. This is our fourth year. At the end of this month, they will set up an exhibition, also a class exhibition. Do you know that I publish magazines of all the exhibitions?
Sharon: Yes.
Marie: And we always buy pieces. I really like to work with students. I really like to do this.
Sharon: What is it that you like about it?
Marie: I don’t know, the way that they’re open to things. I like that they‘re still developing. By the way, the only school where there were more boys in class was in Munich. In Holland, there was only one boy. In Munich, there were a lot of boys. Most schools just have girls, although in the end, the boys got famous.
Sharon: That’s the way it is, yes.
Marie: Yes, that’s the way it is.
Sharon: I was really interested to read that you don’t like the term art jewelry. We call it art jewelry because, as you say, there’s not another term, but why don’t you like the term art jewelry?
Marie: Because I think if you’re talking about painting, you don’t say art paintings or art culture or art design or arts this and that. It’s a discipline like all other disciplines. You have paintings, and some are art and some are not. It’s the quality that makes it art. It’s sometimes not a quality we see now, but it may be that in a hundred years what we now define as art is not what they think of those pieces later on. I don’t know. For me it’s jewelry, although it’s difficult because jewelry is not a well-respected art form.
Sharon: Right.
Marie: Not at all. Every day I still have to convince people that this is a full-blown art discipline.
Sharon: Because you’re on the front lines, what do you see as the future of this kind of jewelry? Call it avant garde jewelry, call it art jewelry. It’s different than gold and diamonds, in a sense.
Marie: It’s different. The jewelry that sells best is still gold, unfortunately. Not unfortunately, because I love gold, but there is all gold. A few years ago, I was invited to make an exhibition with Vicenza in Italy. Vicenza is the gold town of Italy. It’s where the gold industry is, where they make all those fashion jewelry pieces, and there is a museum. The director asked me, “Will you please make an exhibition for our art jewelry department?” They have design jewelry, fashion jewelry, and art jewelry. The one who made an exhibition before me was Helen Drutt, and she also made an exhibition in the art department. I thought, “Well, O.K., I’m going to make this exhibition, and I’m going to make it only with gold because I’ll show them that there is different work you can make with gold.” She told me, “This is my best exhibition ever.” It was a beautiful golden arts jewelry exhibition in their museum. The last year of the exhibition, unfortunately, the last part, was during Covid. What can you do.
Sharon: You don’t often see gold in a lot of the art jewelry galleries. Was it difficult to find pieces that you felt belonged in the exhibition?
Marie: No. I showed pieces from my collection.
Sharon: Your personal collection?
Marie: My personal collection. I have several beautiful golden pieces of Dorothea Prühl. I have several Dutch artists who work in gold. I have enough to show a lot of work. It was 50 pieces, I think.
Sharon: O.K., wow!
Marie: I have some from the students from Holland, which reminds me there were two pieces, one big color piece from a student from Holland and one big brooch.
Sharon: Do you see an increase in interest with a la carte jewelry and things made of alternative materials, like plastic or wood?
Marie: I think this is returning in jewelry. You can make jewelry out of all sorts of materials, and for me, it doesn’t really matter. The only thing I don’t like so much in jewelry is plastic, because I don’t like plastic very much, but for the rest it’s fine. What I don’t buy anymore is rubber jewelry because it disintegrates. I have rubber pieces in my collection, and they were made of horrible material. I didn’t throw them out; I put them in envelopes and kept them, but no. It’s difficult to get people interested in jewelry. One of the things I did to get people interested in it, I made a series of exhibitions in museums. It’s called “Jewelry, the Choice of, and I followed with the name of the town. I did 10 of those exhibitions in Dutch museums, one in the European parliament in Brussels and another one, my best one, in St. Andrews in Scotland. That exhibition was magic.
What happens normally is that in Holland, the director of the museum selects 25 women and men who they want to come to the gallery. They come by bus for a whole day, and I select pieces from the collection. It’s like a Tupperware party, but I want them to get interested in jewelry. Obviously, at St. Andrews that was not possible, that people would come by bus to Scotland. So, the director asked everyone to give her a photo, and she wrote something about the work people did so I could get to know who those people were. I found it very difficult to not see someone and not try something on. So what I did, I had these photos in the gallery for three weeks, and I spread them out on my top floor on this large table. Every day I walked past those photos, looked at the photos, and thought, “Who are you? Who are you?” Then the museum came to collect the pieces I selected for those 24 people. I have to admit I was quite nervous, because what if the people didn’t like those pieces and said, “I don’t want to wear this,” or “I will wear it, but I don’t like it”? But I went there, and we had a meeting in one of the castles. Every quarter of an hour, someone came in and I was supposed to give them the piece of jewelry I selected for them, have them put it on and tell them something about this piece, about the artist. After that, they were interviewed for a movie; there was a movie made for this exhibition. I gave a big gold brooch to the first person who came in, a student from Holland, Christine Matthias, I went to her and said, “I’m giving you the sun,” and she had—how do you say it—goose bumps.
Sharon: Goose bumps, yes.
Marie: She said, “How do you know?” “How do I know what?” “Yesterday I saw the sun spinning.” O.K., that was number one. The next one was a man, and I gave him a silver brooch of a lizard, a beautifully made small brooch of a lizard, and his wife said, “Last year he wrote a poetry book about lizards.” I was flabbergasted, Sharon, and this went on and on. Not everyone had this reaction, but a lot did. The British people are good talkers, and I told everyone something about the piece of jewelry. Later on, as I said, there was a movie made, and they had to tell something about this piece. They were so well-spoken about it. They looked closely at those pieces. There was an understanding of what the artist had done. It was my best exhibition to promote jewelry with people. I am friends with the director; we eat together every year when there is a Collect in London—except this year, because there is no Collect. Those experiences make my life as a gallerist so beautiful, so exciting.
With this Covid disaster we had to stay home, so we had no visitors and the gallery was closed, and I thought, “You know what? I don’t know many people in Nijmegen. I’m focused abroad; I’m focused on faraway places. Who do I know here on my street, for instance?” On the old street of Nijmegen—it’s a beautiful street with fantastic houses—I hardly know anyone. I thought, “I’m going to make an exhibition with 25, 30 people, and I will keep it to my street.” So, now I’m making an exhibition called “In My Street.” A few hours ago, we had the first photographs with a photographer who lives on the street of people who have lived the longest on this street, a man and wife who have lived here for 60 years. We’re doing that now, and we will probably make 35 photos and have an exhibition here.
At this time last year, I invited the former director of the museum of the town who lived on this street. He’s a very introverted man, and I went to him and said, “I’d like you to participate in this exhibition,” and he said, “No, no.” In the end, I convinced him he had to do it, and he said, “But only if the exhibition is in your place,” because he likes beauty. Last week I heard that he died. I want the photos to be taken of people in their own houses. He had this fantastic office in the front of his home, full of books and a huge desk, that was beautiful to photograph in, but he’s not there anymore, so it’s just—
Sharon:Yeah, it’s a shame.
Marie: Yeah, it’s a shame, but I think it will be a beautiful exhibition, very near home. My idea now is this “In My Street.” I want other streets to make the same exhibition and come to the gallery. Everyone can see “In My Street” and have 25 people. We have a whole grid around town with everyone. Now I’m home on my own street. The first time I went to visit people, someone said to me, “Of course you don’t know anyone. You never come out of your gallery.” It’s not true, but I live on top of my gallery, so I go by elevator, get out on my terrace and go in my house.
Sharon: You put the pandemic to good use with this.
Marie: Yes.
Sharon: Marie, I could talk to you forever. Thank you so much. This is great, because it’s so hard when you’re at a show to talk to anyone for more than three seconds. It’s great to hear your whole story, and thank you for sharing it with us.
Marie: Thank you, Sharon. There’s much more.
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About Barbara Ross-Innamorati
For ÉVOCATEUR Founder and Designer Barbara Ross-Innamorati, the love of fashion, art and design has always been hardwired into her creative DNA. Many years ago, Barbara became fascinated with and passionate about gold leaf, particularly the way it can transform even the most ordinary objects into something extraordinary and magical. As someone who always loved jewelry, Barbara went on a mission to adapt 22K gold leaf to jewelry design. After years of research and trial and error, she perfected the proprietary technique for which ÉVOCATEUR is now known. Today, these opulent designs are infused with inspiration from Barbara’s extensive travels throughout the U.S., Europe, Africa and Asia. All of the designs have a sophisticated and unique spirit.
From their Connecticut studio, Barbara and a team of skilled artisans design and individually craft each piece, wrapping them in 22K gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Using an intricate process, the jewelry is gilded and burnished by hand and is fabricated over a period of five days, resulting in an exquisite work of art, each piece finished to a rich patina. With only the finest materials used and impeccable attention to detail, ÉVOCATEUR celebrates the compelling relationship between art and fashion.
The line, which includes cuffs, bangles, pendants, and earrings, can be found in premier jewelry retail stores throughout the United States and the rest of the world.
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Transcript:
For most of her life, Barbara Ross-Innamorati didn’t think jewelry would ever be more than a hobby to her. Little did she know that she would later invent an entirely new category of jewelry. Her company, Évocateur, specializes in gilded jewelry covered in gold and silver leaf and artistic motifs. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how she developed her innovative technique, where she hopes her company will go next, and why she wants everyone to know that it’s possible to start a second chapter in life. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Barbara Ross-Innamorati, designer and founder of the jewelry company Évocateur. Her jewelry features 22-carat gold leaf and sterling silver leaf. Her line is sold around the world, and we’ll hear about her jewelry journey today. Barbara, welcome to the podcast.
Barbara: Thank you, it’s very good to be here.
Sharon: So glad to have you. Tell us about your jewelry journey. It sounds like you invented—it’s not the right word, but we’ll talk more about it.
Barbara: No, that is close to the right word, Sharon. We’re an 11 ½-year-old company. We were established in 2009, but my jewelry journey probably began decades ago. I trace it back to when I was a student in London. I went to an art exhibit, and it was a retrospective of Gustave Klimt, the famous expressionist artist. I saw the painting “The Kiss” there, and even being 20-something, I was struck by something I saw in the painting, and that was gold leaf. I didn’t know what gold leaf was; I was just mesmerized by it and it stuck with me. I went on to finish college and got married, started work and had kids, and then I’d say about 12 or 13 years ago, the gold leaf came back to me, because I’d always loved jewelry. I had a wonderful collection of my own jewelry, and I got it in my mind, thinking, “Why can’t we make jewelry that features gold leaf?” We have less expensive plated fashion jewelry, and then you have fine jewelry. There’s got to be something in between, and there’s got to be something we can use gold leaf on. Gold leaf is different than plating; it’s actual sheets of gold. So, I went on in this fashion, to try and adapt 18-carat or 22-carat gold leaf to jewelry. It was a long process. I had no background in jewelry. I had never taken a jewelry class, not even an art class, although I loved art and I had a vision of what I wanted this to look like. 18 months later, through trial and error, I finally had a product, and I have to trace it back to that day at the National Gallery in London when I saw that painting.
We have, in the process, continued to evolve over the last 11 ½ years. It was something we couldn’t read in a book; I couldn’t read in a book. No one was doing it the way I was doing it, or at least getting the look I wanted. People had used gold leaf as accents on beads, but no one was wrapping it the way we had come up with through this process. I say “we” because over the years, even though I invented this process, my incredible team—and we’re 100 percent woman owned and operated—has continued to progress and evolve and innovate to make this a much better process and product in the meantime. Even our signature flecking, which is little bits of gold, that was kind of an accident. The first time I was trying to get gold leaf on a cuff base, the little pieces of gold—gold leaf is as thin as a butterfly’s wing—would break off and end up all over the image. That was an accident, but I looked at it and said, “That gives it a unique vintage, one-a-kind look.”
It’s been a very interesting journey. We have brought together two materials that heretofore haven’t been brought together, and that’s gold leaf and enamel. In fact, when we have a product issue—and we’ve had many over the years, because we are blazing a trail in this process and product—I couldn’t talk to my gold leaf guy in Florence, Italy, and I couldn’t talk to my enamel guy in Rhode Island, because their materials had never been married together, so to speak. We had to solve things here, not in the tools that we use, but the entire process. So, that’s how it began. I’m proud to say we’ve created this entire newly category of gilded jewelry, and it’s been a long process.
Sharon: It’s an amazing story. Do you have metalsmithing or chemistry experience? Did you have any kind of background?
Barbara: I have an MBA in corporate finance. I was an investment banker and corporate finance person before I did this, so no. I hope that’s inspirational to people who think they can’t do something. You just keep at it. I wasn’t intimidated by not being from the industry.
Sharon: Is that just your personality? It’s intimidating. So many people grew up in jewelry families or they were chemists or something. Is that just you, you’re not intimidated?
Barbara: I think it was passion; I can’t even tell you. I remember being up until 2, 3, 4 in the morning experimenting. The hardest part of this was not just getting the very thin gold leaf or silver leaf on a base, but how to seal it, because gold leaf heretofore has been used in the decorative arts. You see it on domes or churches. In New York, we have several buildings that have gold domes as well as gold statues. Those statues are covered with gold leaf, and when you put it on an object or even furniture, it’s not sitting against someone’s skin. It’s gold; you don’t have to seal it. Silver leaf, you have to seal because it will tarnish, so I had to find the right sealant that would protect it but not destroy it. It’s sitting against a woman’s wrist or her neck where there might be oils and sweat, and I had to find a way to protect that. I was passionate about gold leaf and loved art, and now we have a product that combines original art and gold leaf that’s all made in the U.S. It’s all made right here in Connecticut.
Sharon: Wow! That’s very unusual. Did you find people who knew how to seal it?
Barbara: No, I tried many different materials, and I would wear it and stress test it. I remember finally the third material, which is a type of enamel, was the one that worked. It was hard because not only was I unschooled in this, but there was no school where I could learn this.
Sharon: You do the design of the jewelry. You’re the designer, right?
Barbara: Yes, we design everything here. We work with graphic artists and we have different types of designs. We also work with contemporary artists to put their artwork on our jewelry. You can go to our website and see Monet’s Water Lilies or Van Gogh’s Starry Night. These are all in the public domain, so we can use them without paying any type of royalty or rights. However, we also work with contemporary artists. We take their artwork and pay them a royalty to use their art on our jewelry. We also work with Erté, who was a famous—he did many things: costume designer, sculptor, artist. We work with a company that owns all of his artwork, and we have an entire line devoted to his art.
Sharon: Yes, that was surprising. I always think of the female statue—I don’t know if it’s in crystal, but that’s what I think of when I think of him. He was a him, right?
Barbara: Yeah, his actual name was Romain de Tirtoff. He was Russian-born, but when you said his initials, which are R and T, in French, it’s pronounced Erté.
Sharon: In today’s world that’s also unusual. You’re looking at antiques like that, but not contemporary so much. They’re beautiful. Tell us how you describe your jewelry to people when they ask what you do. What do you say to them?
Barbara: We’re obviously very art-driven jewelry, but I think we’re colorful, whimsical, attainable. Everything retails for under $400. These are handmade pieces that take six to seven days to process. It is made, as in mentioned, in Norwalk, Connecticut, and it features 22-carat gold leaf. It’s very artistic, but it’s also travel jewelry in a way. That’s another thing I point out; you get a lot of bang for the buck. It’s bold, although we do have different widths. We go down to as narrow as a ¾-inch cuff. Earring silhouettes go from the smallest studs to the largest 2-inch tear drops. The same thing with our necklaces, but we do have that bold, gold look
Sharon: It’s beautiful. I happen to love cuff bracelets. You have some fabulous cuff bracelets.
Barbara: Thank you. It’s fun jewelry; whimsical, art-driven and unique. The other thing is that each piece is like a snowflake because it’s handmade. The gilding will go on differently each time, especially the flecking, the little bits of gold or silver, so that each piece is really, truly like a snowflake. We can’t replicate it. The image can be replicated, but the application of the gold leaf can’t.
Sharon: That’s amazing. Did you target that specific price point?
Barbara: We launched our business in the middle of a recession, the 2008-2009 recession, and there was a lot of price resistance and price sensitivity. I tried hard to keep it under a certain price. There is a target, I guess. That’s correct, that we try to be conscious of the price level.
Sharon: It sounds like you had to go through so many iterations to develop the prototypes and find the one where you said, “O.K., we’re ready to go.” How did you feel? Did you know when you saw it?
Barbara: Yeah, everything has to speak to me. I have to feel it.
Sharon: How did you feel then? Did you know when you saw it? Like, “I’ve done 400 prototypes, but this is it”?
Barbara: The biggest challenge for me was finding the right enamel. It’s what is called a cold enamel. It has to air cure. We can’t fire it because of the gold leaf. When I got up the next morning and felt it and touched it after it had cured, I felt like, “Yeah, this is it.” Then, of course, I had to wear it. I would wear it for three or four weeks every day to stress test it because, as I said, we blazed a new trail here. There was no way for us to know if this was going to work.
Sharon: I’m amazed that you’ve been so successful with it. It’s so far afield from what you did before and what your education was in. l understand that you didn’t study as an artist. You didn’t study as a chemist or a metalsmith.
Barbara: I had to learn a lot about chemistry while working with the enamels. We had problems, all kinds of issues that would—like if your studio is too humid, we’ve had issues with that. If the enamel doesn’t cure correctly, then we have to file it off and start again. It’s a laborious process. We’ve tried to short circuit it over the years, but the look is not the same.
Sharon: No, it sounds like a laborious process.
Barbara: But it’s very rewarding. Being relatively new to this industry, obviously there are a lot of challenges, but there’s so much joy that we can be part of something happy and positive for the most part. I hear from customers and from our retailers what their customers are saying, especially when we do a custom cuff. I’m sure most jewelers and designers know what I’m talking about when you feel that “wow.” You made a difference. You’re part of an important milestone. Maybe you’re just part of someone’s everyday life, but they get so much joy out of wearing something. That’s something I never take for granted, because I never had a job like that, frankly, never. This is the first time.
Sharon: What kind of custom work are people asking you for? To mark an anniversary or a trip?
Barbara: We do so many different types of custom. This is probably our largest-growing segment right now. We can take any digital image—of course, we have to make sure it looks good—but we can take any digital image that any customer has and create a piece of jewelry from it that’s embedded into the gold leaf or silver leaf. We do a lot of dogs. We do a lot of horses. Kids are a distant third behind pets. We’ve done cats. We’ve done a lot of map cups, mostly for our retailers. We’ll find beautiful maps and we’ll put it on a cup or a necklace, and then it becomes our retailer’s signature piece. We’ve done Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston—you name the city, we have a map cup or earring or necklace to go with it.
We’ve done those types of customs, but then we’ve done very personal pieces for the retail customer as opposed to the retailer. It really is all over the place. We actually put somebody’s car on one. She had a Ferrari, and she wanted a picture of her in her Ferrari on a cuff, so she sent this photo. She loved that. For a mother’s day gift, one was a picture of somebody’s childhood home. That was through one of our retailers. It was given to her mother. It was their home, and apparently the mother just wept when she got this cup. It’s fun. It’s very personal. If you can digitize it, we can generally create a beautiful piece of jewelry from it.
Sharon: Wow! It’s endless what you can do in terms of custom work. It’s not surprising to me that pets are first. The first thing that flew into my mind was maybe a family picture, but when I think about things that make me smile—it sounds horrible—it’s my dogs.
Barbara: We’ve done a lot of dogs that have passed. When they pass, the owner really wants to commemorate them on a necklace or a cuff. There’s always a story. That’s the other thing; with all kinds of jewelry, there’s always a story, and that’s what I love. I like to think our jewelry has a strong narrative. In fact our name, “Évocateur,” means evocative. That’s because when I started wearing my jewelry, when it was still just a hobby and I was trying to figure things out, people would ask me questions. They’d say, “That’s really unique,” or “Why is there a butterfly on that cuff?” It would evoke conversations and connections, and for me it would evoke nice memories of a trip, for example. That’s what I mean.
Sharon: The Kiss is at the Neue Galerie right now, isn’t it? Do you go visit that because it’s so much closer than London right now?
Barbara: Yeah, I’ve been to Neue Galerie on the Upper East Side of New York. It’s a beautiful museum.
Sharon: Oh, it’s great.
Barbara: Very inspirational. We also have the Portrait of Adele Bloch-Bauer, which is another famous painting of his. We put that on a cuff as well.
Sharon: Beautiful! The price point is approachable, not off-putting, and you can customize so many things. What’s one thing we haven’t talked about? What’s one thing I haven’t covered that you think people should know?
Barbara: This is definitely a second chapter for me. As I mentioned, my background was very different. Had I not lost my job—I had a really nice job and was downsized—this would have never happened. I think it’s important for people to realize that sometimes great things come in not-so-nice packages. There’s always a second chapter, no matter where you are or how old you are. Things can happen that may not look so great at the time, as I said, but I can guarantee you—because I had a great job, and there was no reason for me to leave that job—I can guarantee you that if my hand hadn’t been forced and I hadn’t started playing around with my hobby, that Évocateur would have never happened. I’d still be in that job, or maybe another job that’s similar. That is an important message for anyone who finds himself in a less than desirable position or in something they didn’t plan.
The other thing that’s interesting is that the event that launched us was the lineup at Open See at Henri Bendel. Unfortunately Henri Bendel no longer exists in New York, but this was a semiannual audition, if you will, where any designer could line up, preferably between 5 and 6 a.m. if you wanted to be seen. The lines were long. Anyone could line up in certain categories, and the buyers at Henri Bendel would see them. It was called the Open See; it was very famous, and I decided I was going to go and present our collections. It was successful for us because they accepted us in, and that’s really how we were launched. It gave me the commercial validation that I needed to turn this from a hobby into something more. That’s the other interesting Évocateur historical info.
Sharon: That’s quite a launch. It’s inspirational. I can see so many people saying, “Oh, they wouldn’t be interested,” or they’re not willing to be rejected.
Barbara: Whenever you’re an entrepreneur, you’ve got to realize that you’re going to get rejections. It’s par for the course, and you need a lot of internal fortitude. So much of what I’ve done is hard. There’s no question. It’s hard owning a business and creating something from nothing, which is what we did. Even when you start a business—maybe you have a product that does exist, but you still have to start it. Anytime you start something from nothing, you don’t inherit it; you don’t buy into it; but you’re starting with zero, you’re going to have rejection. You need a lot of passion for what you’re doing and a lot of, like I said, internal fortitude to keep going. It’s not easy, but it is rewarding. There are lots of highs, lots of lows.
Sharon: It sounds very rewarding. It’s the risk of living, but it sounds very rewarding. Thank you so much. It was a very inspirational story. I wish you continued success and growth, and it sounds like you’ll have it in the future. It’s coming; how can it not?
Barbara: It’s been an interesting ride. My biggest achievement to date, I think, is that we survived 2020. I’m serious.
Sharon: I’m laughing, but I know—
Barbara: My team is still here and we’re still working away. Trade shows are coming back, and I’m optimistic for this year and the following year.
Sharon: The fact that you’re still here is quite an accomplishment. Thank you so much, Barbara, for talking with us today, and much luck as you move forward.
Barbara: Thank you so much, Sharon. It’s been a pleasure.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lisa Koenigsberg
Lisa Koenigsberg is the Founder and Conference Director of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) which aims to educate diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts. Lisa has organized conferences, symposia and special sessions at universities, museums and professional organizations throughout the U.S. and abroad which explore fashion, materials and process. Her writings have appeared in books, journals, magazines and in Trendvision’s Trendbook 2018.
Lisa previously served as Advisor to the Dean for Arts Initiatives; Director, Programs in the Arts; and adjunct professor of arts, NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies. Additional positions include: Assistant Director for Project Funding, Museum of the City of New York; Executive Assistant, Office of the President, American Museum of Natural History; architectural historian, New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission; and guest curator, Worcester Art Museum and Yale University Art Gallery.
She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University, and from Yale University where she received her Ph.D.
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Photos:
Transcript:
Throughout history, people have always had an instinct to adorn themselves. Although the materials and trends change, the desire to make things beautiful is deeply human. Lisa Koenigsberg, President of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC), joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about this phenomenon, as well as IAC’s series of conferences covering a variety of jewelry topics. Read the episode transcript below.
Sharon: Hello everyone. Welcome to the Jewelry Journey Podcast. Today, my guest is Lisa Koenigsberg, President of Initiatives in Art and Culture, an organization which is committed to educating diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts, with particular emphasis on jewelry. The organization offers some intriguing conferences and live stream events. We’ll hear all about those today as well as Lisa’s own jewelry journey. Lisa, welcome to the program.
Lisa: Thank you. I’m so glad to be here.
Sharon: Tell us about your jewelry journey. I know you covered a lot of ground prior to founding the organization.
Lisa: It’s actually a more complicated question than that, because our journeys—the personal and the professional are always intertwined. I’ll start with one memory from my childhood, which is of my mother getting dressed for special evenings. She had an outfit that was red and shoes that were printed with a raspberry print—perhaps it was floral and I remember it as that—and she had earrings that were two rounds of small rubies with little diamond flowers and a ring that matched. That association is very profound, one of beauty with my mother, one of the meaningfulness of adornment, the specialness that it denotes. Special can mean many things, of course. I happen to be an extremely visual person. I was born into a world, if you will, a culture, and I have always looked at materiality from across a disciplinary perspective. How does the mother’s jewelry indicate that? On the one hand, you have the emotion that resonates, the association, which is a powerful way that humans think. When they see something they associate with X, and if you do it often enough, then you have an accepted, codified language. If we always see, for example, a steeple and then think “church,” then we’ve created a convention of meaning.
The other thing is that her jewels were beautiful objects made of materials, meaning what? You’d have stone; you’d have metal; you’d have artisanry that shapes material, crafts material—another loaded word—into something that is then worn. I think one of the great challenges about jewelry is that adorning ourselves and crafting objects to which we give significant value—and by that I don’t mean monetary value, but we imbue it with spiritual value, we load it with emotional association and the resonance of love, of friendship, the power of faith, for example, a cross, or a more singular object would be the Pope’s ring. This is an innate instinct in us to want to adorn and to create adornment.
I’m steering away from the word “jewelry” in this context, simply because any word, as we’re discovering these days—we had the War of the Roses, and now we have the War of the Words. What exactly do words mean? Wearing and creating what we could call jewelry is so innately human, and yet we burden it with the weight or the negotiation of associations that can come with the word “luxury.” Luxury, to many people, implies something that is superfluous; it is frivolity. One of the ways people are trying to resolve that dichotomy is in contemplating how the materials that go into the adornment are sourced, how the adornment is made, which gets at “good, better, best” and this idea of fewer, better things, which is not anti-materialist; it is actually an affirmation of the importance of materiality and the importance of being selective, purposeful, considerate and deliberate about choice. But it’s a heavy burden that jewelry bears.
Sharon: That’s true, and in Initiatives in Art and Culture you’ve explored this. Tell us about the organization, your webinars, the conferences you’re doing. Tell us more so we know when we get something in our email about an upcoming event. I know you’ve explored a lot of this.
Lisa: The organization launches and then stewards projects, very often conferences, symposia or series. Now we’re looking at publications that focus on—I’m going to borrow my term back “visual culture,” and by that we mean what you see. From the earliest point in my life which is preschool, pre-everything, I have seen the visual as a language. You have the language of form; you have the language with which you execute form: Is it classic? Is it baroque? Is it spirit? Is it colorful? You have the materials out of which it’s made. What value do we ascribe to those materials? Is one better than the other? Does material value influence our concept of whether something is better or not?
With this general swirl, what does a picture of Andrew Jackson astride a horse tell you? It references a whole tradition of visual culture. It reinforces the mythology of Jackson, which you may wish to unveil to see some ugly subtext. It is about communicating effectively to a culture with imagery that conveys extant but perhaps not articulated messages that need to be articulated. If you think about religious art, much religious art is not only glorious, but it also serves as a visual manifestation of something so we think, “Oh, that’s a textual narrative.” Before the universality of text, we had images, and how those images are created impacts us as much as the words with which a statement is crafted.
Then there are many dimensions to value of material. So, it’s made of aventurine and it’s blue, and therefore it’s one of the most costly colors. Is that the product of a society that relies upon it for its subsistence? Then there’s what we might call social sustainability as a dimension. All of these things are, from my perspective, summarized in visual culture. So, our purpose is to explore from every angle—and we welcome new thoughts as to what those angles might consist of—but to explore from every angle possible that which you see. Jewelry is of central importance in that canon of objects.
Sharon: In a different lifetime when we could travel, I attended one of your conferences, the Gold Conference. You have an upcoming virtual conference. Tell us about that. It really sounds interesting, and it focuses on jewelry and some of the issues you’ve been talking about, sustainability.
Lisa: With pleasure. We have two conferences that have focused on jewelry that are fairly long-running. One of them tends to look at fashion, cultural zeitgeist, materials, and it often uses color as a lens. It was the 10th anniversary of that conference, which was called Green. It was in 2008 that we made an effort to rework our significant commitment to that and transitioned into exploring jewelry and materials related to jewelry. In the process of working on that conference, we met many people with whom we still have wonderful relationships today, ranging from Toby Pomeroy, who was a pioneer in what was then called ecoluxury and who has such an important mercury-free mining initiative underway, to Benjamin Zucker, who is a gem merchant but also an extraordinary novelist and collector. He came and spoke about green diamonds because we wanted, one might say, a polymorphously perverse approach to green and gold and how it is mined. That was a focus of that conference, and that was the beginning of a leg of a journey. We did a Coral Conference; we did a Diamond Conference.
I woke up one day and said, “Oh golly, we’ve never done gold,” but the nuggets were there, if you will. It’s a corny metaphor, but that was the beginning of what you referred to, a decade as the “Gold Conference,” which has explored the emotional power and resonance of artistic potential residing in gold, associated values attributed to gold and how it is yielded from the earth. As the cultural conversation has become more complex and look into more angles, so has ours with a pronounced emphasis on craft or artisanry as well as on our responsibility to the planet and to one another. It’s something we would call responsible practice. At the same time, I’ve been very interested in pushing the boundaries so that we do more comparison, for example, of gold and diamonds and established categories or vehicles of value and the different ways they are produced, to use the industry terminology, or mined. What are the society implications; what are the different ways we consider value; what’s the relationship between, say, stone and metal in creating something of beauty? We were very fortunate to partner with Ronnie Vanderlinden and a number of groups he’s associated with and do something called Day of Light.
Sharon: Who’s this person? I don’t him; I’m sorry.
Lisa: Ronnie is very prominent in the diamond world. He’s an extraordinary human being of great kindness and immense connectedness throughout that world. When I say “that world,” I mean the world of diamonds in particular, which is a very complicated and interesting universe. We were asked to partner with him and a group of colleagues to produce a day called Day of Light. Out of that day—which looked largely at diamonds, everything from their significance, to the range of colors in which they come, to the moral ramifications of extraction, all of that—out of that, came the idea of pushing the borders of the Gold Conference so the Day of Light shone brightly on the Gold Conference. So, we married the two, or one has expanded to include the other, which is something I’ve been quite interested in. Of course, that doesn’t preclude our looking at colored stones at all, but that, in effect, is the upcoming virtual conference. So, it’s our 11th year of what is now the Gold and Diamond Conference. We are doing it virtually July 13-15. The reason for doing this virtually is, one, I had an extraordinary epiphany. The first time we did a webinar and understood the impact we have or did have, we were really honored because we had 44 countries listening in. That was enormously exciting to me, and I guess unfortunately meant more work, because I was so excited that I said, “All right, we’re going to do this even if this is whatever the world looks like.” The conference is in person because there’s a criticality to being in person that you cannot replicate. On the other hand, the virtual and web context provides other things that also are irreplicable and important, so together they are more than the sum of their parts.
Sharon: What are the dates of the conference?
Lisa: The conference is going to happen July 13-15, which is a Tuesday through Thursday, approximately 10:30-2:00.
Sharon: Is that Eastern Time, 10:30-2:00?
Lisa: Yes, ET. The reason for that is that we try to be mindful of as many time zones as we can be; West Coast, U.K., Europe, etc. and that seems to be a good slice. Those are not precise hours. We are working to have an elegantly crafted program, because the way people experience time virtually is different than they do when you come together for something in person. That’s something we’ve been quite aware of.
Sharon: First, I want to make sure everybody listening knows we’ll have a link to your website and that they can get more information about the conference if they want to sign up for it. I also want to emphasize, just from my own experience, that you’re talking about deep, profound issues, but at the same time you had makers; you had designers. I’m not in mining or manufacturing, but I want to make sure everybody understands that you had guests that were of interest to a lot of people.
Lisa: We have a tremendous cross-section of people participating in the program, from makers to curators to collectors to yes, manufacturers, which is a bit of a separate realm, to people who cut stones, to people who write about value in the world. You pick up the newspaper and there’s a column, “Should I Buy Gold Today?” That’s actually related to what’s on your finger, and the people who come to our conferences mirror that diversity. We have collectors. We have people who love jewelry and are interested in it for a range of reasons, and it is not what they do for a living or their day job. Then we have a range of people who do come from different aspects of it. You can have somebody who works in mining sitting next to somebody who has the breath of god in their hands.
That actually brings up something interesting, which is the hand aspect. The open door to everyone is something that has been fundamental to me forever, and I have to say I’m very indebted to my father for this. My father was deeply, deeply interested in American art all his life. I was immersed in that world; I still am. My father approached that world as the amateur. He read everything. He looked at everything, but this is not what he did for his day job. This was a passion to which he was deeply committed. That enthusiasm and joy in the field of endeavor was something that was transmitted. That spark, that is the most interesting thing to feel that and to bring whatever question, whatever interest, whatever approach you have.
Something that’s important that needs to be talked about more is how we wear jewels. We tend to think, “Oh, we’re going to put the broach on the shoulder. That’s where it goes.” Well, that’s the idea of a coat pin, but in fact the brooch unbelievable. It is positioned in many ways, has many functions. It becomes quite related to fashion, and by fashion I don’t mean “It’s got to be pink or navy blue,” but literally, “Well, if I’m going to wear it at my waist, can the structure of my outfit, whether it’s pants or a skirt or a dress, accommodate that positioning?” What does positioning mean? We know innately that we respond to these things, because all you have to do is scroll your media feed and say, “Oh my goodness, somebody has an engagement ring and it’s a portrait cut. Somebody else has worn it. It’s a pearl. Somebody else set a magnificent stone and created a highly original ring.” We see these things. We may not be drilling down into the particulars in the footnotes, but we’re all susceptible to the buzz, the power, the cultural associations of needing to do better. There’s the example of the impact of “blood diamond” and what the industry has done and the efforts that inspired them to do better, to be better. Frankly, some of the people who consider this on the most important level, they’re the consumer. Jewelry is a powerful vehicle that touches us all. Take a look at your left hand or your right hand. Are you wearing something? It probably says something to you, and that’s what we’re here to explore and talk about.
Sharon: You’ve had series of—I call them webinars, but they’re live streams with a variety of people participating from all over the world with live discussions.
Lisa: Yes, our Child of Covid. This was sparked by one of our partners. We were going to have our 10thanniversary conference in April of 2020, and fortuitously it was going to be on Earth Day. Then circumstances prompted us to push it back to October, and we were asked, as was everyone, “What are you doing to meet the circumstances that exist now? What are you putting in front of people? How are you engaging them, how are the issues and the beauties and all the rest of it being brought to bear?” I had no experience in the realm, but I said, “O.K., we’ll do three webinars, one a month, between now and when the conference is meant to happen.” I say meant to happen because we ended up doing a virtual manifestation, but it was that experience, the first episode or webinar that we put forward, and the breadth of audience and the responsiveness of audience that moved me to say, “We’re going to continue doing the conferences, absolutely; they’re critical and irreplaceable, and at the same time this is something important, too.”
One of the things we strive for is unscripted, guest-prepared lectures, and always with people who are speaking from a perspective of accomplishment, whether they’re an amazing jeweler or somebody who represents a particular part of the government or a particular part of the industry, whether it’s retail or women’s issues. People who bring, from their own informed vantage point, a readiness to talk with each other about questions and shared interests, even if perhaps they come from different avenues. We’ve been excited to welcome people as participants from all over the world, as you suggested, and we also receive questions, comments and responses in real time from people who are all over the world wanting to have answers or make comments about what’s going on. That’s our Child of Covid, but we will find another name because it is here to stay, I hope.
I like to turn that on its ear and say it’s something that prompts in me a thought about this interlude or period of time that has been Covid. Interlude maybe suggest something a bit too pleasantly musical. Along with the devastation and the very traumatic impacts, loss of life and transformed social structure, have also come some very positive outcomes, even if the way one defines that outcome is a period of reflection to think about how we can do something better, how we can have better lives, how we can be more reflective or conscious or kind. What is the meaning of what we do? Do we want to be a bit deeper with less of the frequency that seems to have characterized culture prior to the pandemic?
Sharon: I understand why you’ve had so many conferences, virtual or in person, because these are deep issues. You bring in people from across the board, people who are working hands-on, bench jewelers, designers, people who are familiar with mining and manufacturing. We could talk about that more, but what was interesting to me in your last webinar was a lot of people saying, “We’re not there yet. We have been working on environmental consciousness and how and where things are mined.”
I want to make sure everybody knows that your next conference is July 13-15, and it’s Gold and Diamond. For me, being on the West Coast, I’m thrilled when these things are virtual, even though I’ve been fortunate enough to go to New York to attend some in person. To sit on my living room couch and listen to these is great. Lisa, thank you so much for being here today.
Lisa: May I leave you with a parting thought?
Sharon: Absolutely.
Lisa: O.K., I’m going to take this off. On my right hand, I wear two rings. One of them was given to me by mother on my first Mother’s Day as a mother. Imagine that I’m holding up this ring, which is beautiful; it is Greek in expression, timeless looking, very, very warm gold. Those are the attributes visually. Then there are all the associations the ring has, because my mother wore it for years and years, and I was actually present when my father gave it to her. So, that ring is on my hand. Clearly that ring is important to me. In a way, the jewelry journey starts with each of us. The fact that jewelry is meaningful in whatever way it is actually prompts a quest for the materials. That opens up the world of questions about practice and sourcing, for example. Then, as it’s transformed, you have other questions regarding taste, etc. But it all begins with us and our deep-seated connection to jewelry. I think the personal connection there is something that we celebrate, and hopefully it is a universal touch point for all of us as we go forward to talk about it in whatever ways we will.
Sharon: There’s so much to talk about. We can talk for hours about some of these subjects, and I’d love to do that. Hopefully we’ll have you back again and we’ll continue the conversation, but thank you so much for being here today.
Lisa: It’s absolutely a pleasure. I’d love to come back anytime.
Sharon: O.K., thank you.
We will have images posted on the website. You can find us wherever you download your podcasts, and please rate us. Please join us next time, when our guest will be another jewelry industry professional who will share their experience and expertise. Thank you so much for listening.
Thank you again for listening. Please leave us a rating and review so we can help others start their own jewelry journey.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Peter Shemonsky
Peter Shemonsky grew up in New England and from a young age was intrigued by gemstones and jewelry. His maternal grandfather was a silversmith and model maker, and by being exposed to his grandfather’s work he developed a special appreciation for jewelry and the process of making beautiful objects.
Classically trained as a designer and goldsmith, Mr. Shemonsky spent his early career working at the bench, creating custom jewelry and restoring antique jewelry. Through his work and the extensive study of the classic techniques employed in antique jewelry, he entered the auction world with Skinners in Boston, Massachusetts, and later held the position of head of the jewelry and silver department of Grogan & Company.
In 2000, Mr. Shemonsky was appointed head of the jewelry department at Butterfield & Butterfield, which was later acquired by Bonhams after which he became the director of the San Francisco and Hong Kong offices of CIRCA, an international jewelry buying company.
In 2010, he set up his own private jewelry firm specializing in fine, antique and estate jewelry as well as offering appraisal, purchasing and custom design services.
Mr. Shemonsky is a writer and instructor for the International Society of Appraisers Antique and Period Jewelry course and co-director of the West Coast chapter of the American Society of Jewelry Historians. He is a frequent lecturer on the topic of antique jewelry with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers, as well as the American Society of Appraisers. He has also made regular television appearances appraising jewelry on Antiques Roadshow over the past sixteen years.
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Photos:
Marianne Hunter’s journey to become an enamel jewelry artist unfolded organically; it’s no wonder why her jewelry making process has an organic quality as well. As a self-taught artist, Marianne follows her intuition to choose the colors and composition of her grisaille enamel pieces. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the childhood inspirations that influence her work, her jewelry making process, and how she has sustained a career for 50 years. Read the episode transcript here.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marianne Hunter
Enamel art jewelry creator and designer Marianne Hunter and husband, sculptor William Hunter, are together Hunter Studios, a pairing of two ground-breaking and inspired artists. Each piece of Hunter’s jewelry is a unique artwork assemblage of her enamels, gems, artifacts and precious metals, an object of surpassing beauty and emotion. Her pieces reflect the breadth of her interests in the arts, nature, humanity and philosophy. Hunter creates only 20 pieces a year, including a small number of private commissions, limited by the time required to create each piece. A Marianne Hunter is truly a rare object d’art, an investment in beauty and a future heirloom. Each piece is titled with a poem Marianne writes for that piece. Hunter’s work can be seen in numerous museum collections in the US and abroad as well as in editorial images worldwide.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Robert Lee Morris:
Robert Lee Morris is a fashion jewelry designer and sculptor, who attributes much of his inspiration to organic forms he admires in nature and to designing for an imaginary futuristic society. His designs have been made in gold, silver and bronze. He is known for his 24 carat matte gold plating and rich deep red copper and green patina. Robert has collaborated with many leading fashion designers, including Geoffrey Beene, Karl Lagerfeld, Kansai Yamamoto, Calvin Klein, Anne Klein, and Donna Karan. He was awarded the Coty Award in 1981 and the Geoffrey Beene Lifetime Achievement Award by the CFDA Awards in 2007.
Robert was first discovered in 1971 by New York gallery owner Joan Sonnabend and first exhibited his work at her art jewelry outpost in the Plaza Hotel called Sculpture to Wear. Shortly after the closing of Sculpture to Wear in 1977, he opened the first iteration of Artwear Gallery. After relocating to SoHo in 1978, he gained new celebrity clientele, including Issey Miyake, Madonna, Cher, Bianca Jagger, Janet Jackson, Oprah Winfrey, among others.
About Lisa M. Berman*:
Lisa M. Berman, is known as the Visionary Proprietor of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. Berman curates exhibitions and places collections into museums, as well as offering an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects via her gallery to discerning collectors, media and art institutions, which have been featured in multiple films, television and publications. She is also the founder of Berman Arts Agency, Director of the Oropeza Sculpture Garden, the Official West Coast Representative of Robert Lee Morris’s Archives and the first Ambassador for ARTISTAR Jewels in the United States
*No relation to host Sharon Berman
Additional Resources:
COLLAR 1980, brass with verdigris patina. Sample for a KANSAI YAMAMOTO EVENT, one-of-a-kind.
ROLLING MACHINE Collar, Sterling silver & brass,1974. One-of-a-kind. From RLM: “Yes! This is my favorite! Has incredible Providence...was one of my two signature pieces in the “SCULPTURES AS JEWELRY AS SCULPTURE” exhibition at the Boston ICA in 1974.
LONG CUFF #6 1989, Cutout photo etched sheet metal created for DONNA KARAN. Resort collection,18k gold plate. One-of-a-kind.
Lisa M. Berman, owner of Sculpture to Wear Gallery and West Coast dealer for the Robert Lee Morris archives.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kimberly Nogueira
Kim Nogueira is an automaton maker and art jeweler who received her education apprenticing as a production goldsmith for 16 years. Her BA in sociology from Smith College supports the multi-dimensional, thought-based yet intuitively-guided explorations that undergird her wearable narrative art practice.
Kim's work has been in juried and curated exhibitions both abroad and nationally, such as the Museum of Arts and Design’s MAD about JEWELRY, and her work can be found in periodicals and books, such as 1000 Beads, Behind the Brooch, Narrative Jewelry: Tales from the Toolbox and volumes 2 and 3 of the Society of North American Goldsmiths’ annual compendium Jewelry and Metals Survey. The Morris Museum recently acquired one of her automaton pendants for their permanent collection. Her home base for the past quarter of a century has been the tiny sub-tropical island of St John, in the US Virgin Islands.
Additional Resources
Photos:
Title: “Salt is the Oldest Mystery”
copper, silver, vitreous enamel, antique buddhist immortal bead, african trade bead, cord
photo by artist
Title: “A Trio of Automata”
copper, silver, vitreous enamel, nickel silver, brass
photo by artist
Title: “Mundus Imaginalis”
copper, silver, vitreous enamel, antique buddhist immortal bead, african trade bead, cord
photo by artist
Title: “Vesica Pisces”
copper, silver, vitreous enamel, South Sea pearl, cord
photo by artist
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Amita Bhalla
Amita Bhalla is an artist, jewelry maker and physician. As an artist, she creates one of a kind jeweled masterpieces born of beeswax & clay, sculpted by hand and brought to life with exceptional gemstones. Every piece is unique, striking a balance between bold scale and ultra-delicate design. Her work is designed with an expressed sensitivity to the natural world. Each of her jewels were created to be collected, worn and exalted.
Additional Links:
Photos
All images are from her recent collection, The Murano Collection.
1. Amore Infinito: Exquisite Murano glass creations and beads (also means Endless Love)
2. Bel Sogno: Clay and Murano glass beads (also means Beautiful Dream)
3. Bella Vita: Exquisite Murano glass creation (also means a Beautiful Life)
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Lausanne Miller:
After spending 13 years as a fashion designer and director for large brands in Los Angeles, Lausanne Miller took a leap and made the shift to her forever love, jewelry. With the goal of offering thoughtfully designed, modern, and enduring styles. Coupled with her small town midwestern roots, Lausanne draws upon her love of travel and art as a constant source of inspiration.
Additional Resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Josette Patterson
Josette Patterson is cofounder and creative director of Mark Patterson, a Newport Beach, California-based fine jewelry brand founded in 1985 in New York City. A graduate of the Gemological institute of America, Josette met her husband Mark during her studies. Soon after graduation, they both moved to New York City, where Josette was freelancing her designs and pursuing more design classes at the Parson School of Design and other art schools in New York City.
In 2010, Josette and Mark opened their Flagship Store/Studio in Newport Beach, California. Together, they personally work with local clientele to custom design fine jewelry items and repurpose family heirlooms for the most discerning individuals. The Mark Patterson team of artisans meticulously hand craft from start to finish each piece of jewelry, whether it is an engagement ring, wedding band or any bespoke heirloom under the discerning eyes of Mark and Josette. The Mark Patterson brand is represented in over 50 independent retail stores nationally where their highly successful Promise Bridal Collection receives industry awards and acclaim.
About Amy Elliott
Amy Elliott is a writer, editor and brand storyteller who specializes in fine jewelry and fashion, and is fluent in other lifestyle categories, including food, weddings and travel.
As a former staff editor at The Knot, Bridal Guide, Brides Local Magazines + Brides.com and Lucky, Amy is known for delivering high-quality editorial content across a variety of print and digital media. After recently serving as the Engagement Rings Expert for About.com, Amy joined the freelance staff of JCK as its All That Glitters columnist, while contributing articles about jewelry trends, estate and antique jewelry and gemstones to its prestigious print magazine (which will soon celebrate its 150th anniversary).
Amy also serves as the Fine Jewelry Expert for The Bridal Council, an industry organization composed of luxury bridal designers, retailers and media, and her byline has appeared in Gotham, Hamptons, DuJour, Martha Stewart Weddings, GoodHousekeeping.com and more.
Additional Links:
If you’d like a copy of the book, the Pattersons are requesting donations of $70 or more to the Lebanese Red Cross; email your receipt to [email protected].
Photos:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kevin Friedman:
Renowned South African jewelry designer Kevin Friedman has captivated both the local and international jewelry trade with his one-of-a-kind pieces which use an innovative combination of high caratage gemstones and precious metals with ordinary everyday “found objects.” Kevin is a renaissance man who draws on the world around him for inspiration and creativity.
His highly original, fresh approach to contemporary jewelry design, such as the extraordinary $16 million Ponahalo Necklace created for the Geneva-based Steinmetz group, has attracted major international interest. His work has been featured in the international press.
Kevin has been director of design at Frankli Wild African Classics in Johannesburg since 1989 and has built up a blue-chip clientele. He is part of a seven-generation line of jewelers.
Additional Resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Konstantinos Leoussis
Konstantinos Leoussis is the owner of KIL N.Y.C., a company specializing in antique jewelry from the late Stuart to Edwardian era as well as a jewelry line greatly inspired by antiques, travels, and world history. After years of experience working under the tutelage of jewelry historians and as a former operations assistant of a fashion jewelry firm, Konstantinos has honed his skills and aims to create an entirely new type of jewelry business with a youthful and humanistic approach.
Additional resources:
Photos:
Large mourning pendant
Set of portrait miniatures and mourning sepia
Memorial sepia for Shakespeare with blue enamel and diamonds
French jet bug pin
Large Whitby jet brooch
Tiny Whitby jet brooches
A lovely late Georgian garnet pendant brooch. This was likely a segment from another larger piece converted into a brooch.
From his personal collection; a set of miniatures: 1700s of a brother and sister and a sepia miniature for a departed family member - most likely the grandmother.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Amanda Triossi:
Amanda Triossi F.G.A. is a jewelry historian, author, curator, lecturer on the history of Western jewelry design and consultant to luxury goods companies. She was born and educated in Rome, Italy, and obtained a History of Art degree at Cambridge University.
In 1992 at Sotheby’s Institute of Art in London, Amanda initiated a unique course, “Understanding Jewelry with Amanda Triossi,” the first intensive course on the history of Western jewelry. From 1997 to 2015, she was a consultant for Bulgari, heading the project of the Corporate Historical Archives and Heritage Collection. From 2009 to 2013, she curated five major exhibitions on Bulgari worldwide. She has published extensively on the history of jewelry and on Bulgari.
Today, Amanda writes, vets Bulgari jewels, gives lectures and seminars, curates jewelry-centric trips internationally, and consults for major luxury brands and private collectors.
Additional resources:
Kimberly Klosterman Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kklostermanjewelry
DIVA Museum: https://divaantwerp.be/en
Pforzehim Schmuck Museum: https://www.schmuckmuseum.de/
Simply Brilliant Catalogue: https://www.cbsd.com/9781911282525/simply-brilliant/
Photos:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Elizabeth Shypertt:
Elizabeth Shypertt was the co-founder and co-owner of Velvet da Vinci Gallery in San Francisco for 23 years. The focus of the gallery was art jewelry and craft-based sculpture. During that time, she organized more than 80 exhibitions including one-person and group shows. Since leaving the gallery, Elizabeth has curated jewelry shows for the Petaluma Arts Center, the Center for Enamel Arts, the Shibumi Gallery in Berkeley and the Museum of Craft and Design in San Francisco. She has also twice juried the Emeryville Arts Festival and jewelry section of the American Craft Council shows.
Elizabeth is a long-standing member and was a board member for both the local Metal Arts Guild and the Art Jewelry Forum. She is currently on the board of the Society of North American Goldsmiths (SNAG).
Additional resources:
Angular Neckpiece - by Brooke Battles, enamel on copper, 22k gold leaf. I love this piece because it's big and bold, yet still very wearable.
Build #1 Neckpiece by Kat Cole (President of SNAG). Enamel on steel. Once again, big, bold buy wearable. And I do love enamel.
wearing an Uli Rapp necklace. fabric printed on neoprene.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Alexia Connellan
Alexia discovered her passion for gems when she was still a child, fascinated to learn that the Vikings used iolite to navigate by the sun on a cloudy day. She began a lifetime of gemstone collecting, developing a refined connoisseur’s eye.
Alexia further honed her creative vision in New York at Columbia University, where she received a Bachelor of Arts degree in Art History & Visual Arts. She continued studying sculpture at the School of Visual Arts in New York. In 2015, she launched a signature collection of couture jewels inspired by extraordinary gems from her collection. One of her first creations, the stunning Victoria Bracelet, designed to feature a spectacular 16.06-carat purple-pink tourmaline, was honored in the Spectrum Awards, an annual gemstone jewelry design competition sponsored by the American Gem Trade Association.
Alexia’s jewelry is bold yet sophisticated, with a joyful palette of remarkable gems: yellow green sphere with sparks of orange and gold, glowing mandarin garnet, and lagoon-blue tourmaline. Each vibrant stone explodes with personality: the perfect complement for the woman who leads a colorful life.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Hydrangea Earrings:
Toi et Moi ring:
Spiral Earrings:
Floating Orb Earrings: The golden glow of the sun shines in these classic earrings updated with a floating pearl suspended below the ear. In the Floating Orb Earrings 2.43cttws of fancy intense yellow diamonds are perfectly balanced by rare 14mm 24k yellow gold colored South Sea cultured pearls. You’ll reach for these handmade 18k yellow gold earrings every day because they can be worn three ways. Wear them as diamond studs for the day, seamlessly attach their gold pearl drops for evening, or instantly update your look by substituting the yellow diamond studs with another pair of studs in your jewelry box. Price on application. Gatsby Convertible Earrings: The Gatsby Earrings evoke the rhythmic geometry of Art Deco, with graduated circles pivoting on sparkling diamond pave links so they move with you. Handmade in 18k yellow gold with 2.66cttw of fancy intense yellow diamonds, and 9ttw of unheated tourmaline, the Gatsby Earrings will take you from day to night because they transform from discrete hoops to dramatic drop earrings and show stopping pendant necklaces. They are designed to be worn five ways: as a diamond huggie, as yellow circle drops, with a long yellow diamond dangle, with a green tourmaline crystal dangle, and with either of the drops as a pendant on a 20" 18k yellow gold chain. With their versatility, they’ll work with everything in your wardrobe. Price on application. Ophelia Ring: Like the beautiful waters of the Caribbean, the hypnotic teal blue of the unheated 18.66ct indicolite in the Ophelia Ring refreshes your spirit. The siren call of the watery depths of this one of a kind gem will make you want to dive in. The design of the ring frames this coveted gem in 18k yellow gold with the intense sunshine of fancy intense yellow diamonds that fade in an ombre pave pattern to white diamonds. Altogether the meticulously handset diamonds total 2.79cttw. “This ring was inspired by the painting Ophelia by John Evert Mills. The lush teal green of the indicolite reminded me of the vegetation in the painting, which is very vivid. The prongs are like flower petals. They are outstretched like Ophelia’s arms in the painting, holding the gem like the water holds her up.” – Alexia Connellan Price on application.What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Stefan Friedmann
Stefan Friedmann is the co-founder of Ornamentum Gallery with his wife, Laura Lapachin. Founded in 2002 in Hudson, New York, Ornamentum exhibits a dynamic collection of contemporary jewelry as well as related objects and artworks. Stefan and Laura founded the gallery after themselves being educated as jewelers/designers in the USA and Germany. These experiences put to work in the gallery setting have earned them international acclaim as impeccable and discerning curators.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Pink and grn neck
iro Kamata
Holon Necklace 6, 2021
necklace, oxidized silver, camera lenses with PVD coating
length 16.93 inches /43 cm
photo: Jiro Kamata
David Bielander
Cardboard (Heart), 2016
bracelet, 18k gold, white gold staples
3.65 x 3.125 x .9 inches
9.3 x 7.9 x 2.3 cm
Edition of 12 - 1 example in the Newark Art Museum collection.
photo: Dirk Eisel
Aaron Decker
Pink Tug, 2018
necklace, enamel, copper
7.87 x .79 x 1.57 inches
20 x 2 x 4 cm
photo Aaron Decker
Ornamentum showing jewelry and related art and design works at Design Miami in 2019
photo: James Harris.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Guy Burton:
Guy Burton, DGA is the Bespoke Director at Hancocks, London’s oldest family jewelry house and purveyors of vintage and contemporary jewelry since 1849. During his time in the jewelry trade, he has developed a passion for diamonds and bespoke jewelry. In his role, he focuses on finding and acquiring the finest loose diamonds and gemstones and creating new jewelry pieces, as well as expanding the Hancocks antique jewelry collection. He has created an extensive collection of contemporary diamond jewelry for Hancocks with a focus on unusual and rare old cut diamonds.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
A group of beautiful antique Colombian emeralds in rings by Hancocks London.
Five loose antique diamonds.
A very special 11.36ct antique asscher cut diamond in ring by Hancocks London.
The Anglesey Tiara, an incredible Victorian treasure with a very rich history, currently for sale at Hancocks London.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Dana Kraus
The DK Farnum collection is a reflection of years of luxury goods experience. Dana Kraus was in management at Gourmet, Elle, and Fortune magazines, where she cultivated jewelry clients, made excellent contacts and learned how to navigate the finest jewelry houses to ferret out exceptional design. Her extensive research and vigilant, disciplined eye are the forces behind the collection. She studied art history and decorative arts at the Brearley School and Smith College and at the Ecole des Beaux-Arts in Paris.
Dana Kraus took a unique path to the jewelry industry, which might be why she has a unique approach to collecting. As the founder of DK Farnum Estate Jewelry, she helps her clients refine their taste and often advises them to cut back the size of their collections in favor of quality. Her personal approach and expertise in 20th-century jewelry has endeared her to a loyal group of buyers—including millennial buyers, who are notorious for their lack of interest in estate jewelry. Dana joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her path to jewelry and where she see the industry heading. Read the episode transcript here.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Charles Carmona
Native Californian Charles Carmona is a Graduate Gemologist (GG) of the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) and an Accredited Senior Appraiser (ASA) of the American Society of Appraisers. He followed his hobbies from a young age to become an expert in the fields of gemology and numismatics. In the 1970s, he was importing colored gemstones from Asia and South America before establishing Guild Laboratories in 1980. In the last decade, he has expanded Guild to Asia with joint ventures in Hong Kong, Shenzhen, China and Bangkok, Thailand.
Mr. Carmona has received appraisal and consulting assignments from most US states and territories, requiring travel to nearly half of them. Foreign assignments have included travel to Mexico, Canada, China, Thailand, India, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Colombia, Brazil, Madagascar and Tanzania. Besides English, he is fluent in Spanish and French, and conversant in Portuguese.
As a consultant to the World Bank, and he established gemology schools in Madagascar and Tanzania, both of which are important gem producing countries.
Mr. Carmona's Complete Handbook for Gemstone Weight Estimation is an essential volume in every jewelry professional's library. It is an indispensable tool to help the user estimate weights by their measurements of all shapes and varieties of gemstones set in jewelry. In its 5th printing, it sells to gemologists around the world.
To keep abreast of gemstone and jewelry trade developments, he regularly attends regional, national and international trade shows, and other industry events. Mr. Carmona also travels globally to gem localities to learn about the gemstones at their source, and has hosted tours to many of these destinations where attendees experience the mines first-hand, along with Mr. Carmona's expertise and connections. Charles Carmona is also an invited speaker at gem and mineral related events.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sonia Boyajian
Sonia designs pieces of jewelry that help tell the story of the women who wear them. Her pieces strive to bring together texture, material, culture, and mood into harmony, creating personal adornments that become a tangible expression of the individual.
From her formative years as an art student in Antwerp, she has carved out a design process that is more connected to the exploration of a sculptor or painter than to the trend-driven mode of many jewelry designers. Every collection is animated by a central theme that allows her to develop a new language of color and material while maintaining at the core a connection to the woman who wears the piece and brings it to life.
Although she’s now known for her playful, elegant jewelry, Sonia Boyajian didn’t always consider herself a professional jeweler. Sonia started her career in Antwerp, working with high-fashion designers to blend fashion and jewelry together. She’s made another career pivot during the pandemic, recently opening a new retail space and offering jewelry making classes for kids. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her career path, her inspirations, and why her new mission is to pass her skills onto people through teaching. Read the episode transcript here.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
A few looks from Sonia's latest collection:
THE LADY OF POMPEII
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Kimberly Overlin
Kimberly Overlin is Dean of Students at the Gemological Institute of America (GIA), a position she earned after graduating from GIA herself. She has served in this role since 2009.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
The Robert Mouawad Campus, GIA’s World Headquarters in Carlsbad, California. Photo by Eric Welch/GIA.
GIA’s diamond grading lab. Photo by Valerie Power.
"Eyes of Brazil" a large quartz geode, sliced into 16 polished slices on custom stands is housed in GIA’s museum in Carlsbad. Photo by Orasa Weldon/GIA.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Emiko Oye
San Francisco artist Emiko Oye creates bold and colorful jewelry with repurposed LEGO® - from ready-to-wear, to one-of-a-kind conceptual work inspired by haute couture, art history, David Bowie, and Nonviolent Communication and community. She began her jewelry business, emiko-o, in 1997, dealing in retail, wholesale and private commissions. Collaborations with LEGO® System in Denmark have led to their endorsement of her as an “Influencer” for young female makers.
Utilizing LEGO®, recycled and semi-precious materials, her jewelry universally tugs on the nostalgic heartstrings, and artfully interweaves memories into conversation-sparking adornment. In working with recycled media, Emiko discovered similarities in both LEGO® and jewelry: hands-on-story-telling capabilities, increased value with vintage, dedicated collectors, generational status as family heirloom.
A BFA University Scholar from Syracuse University, her work has been shown in over 100 exhibitions throughout the United States and internationally; including solo shows at the San Francisco Museum of Craft and Design and Ombré Gallery, and in the permanent collections of the Los Angeles County Museum of Art Lois Boardman Collection and Racine Art Museum. She is often invited to speak on the business of craft and her own work for arts institutions and organizations, such as the Dowse Museum of Art (New Zealand), Bard Graduate Center (NY), Society of North American Goldsmiths, New York City Jewelry Week, Miami Art Museum and Miami University (OH), The Exploratorium (CA), California College of the Arts, and Oakland Museum of California.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Eye 2: To Matter
From the 2 Be Seen series
Convertible neckpiece/brooch, 2019 Repurposed, recycled and chromed LEGO®, Argentium silver, recycled steel back, steel pin, coated steel cable neck cord
Photo credit: artist
Eye 6: Empathy
From the 2 Be Seen series
Convertible neckpiece/brooch, 2019 Repurposed, recycled and chromed LEGO®, Argentium silver, recycled steel back, steel pin, coated steel cable neck cord
Photo credit: artist
Cartier Blanc
From My First Royal Jewels neckpiece, 2008, 2018 Recycled and repurposed LEGO®, rubber cord, sterling silver
Photo credit: artist
La Reine de Pèlerin
From Les Voyageurs de Temps (The Time Travelers) Convertible neckpiece, 2013 Repurposed & recycled LEGO®, Argentium silver, coated copper wire, coated steel cable
Photo credit: Marc Olivier LeBlanc
Portrait
From the Musée series neckpiece, 2012 Repurposed LEGO® and recycled laminate, steel wire, sterling silver
Photo credit: artist
Maharajah’s 6th neckpiece, 2008 Recycled and repurposed LEGO®, rubber cord, sterling silver Collection of Los Angeles County Museum of Art
Photo credit: artist
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Elyse Zorn Karlin
Elyse Zorn Karlin is the co-director of the Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts (ASJRA) and publisher of Adornment, a magazine of jewelry and related arts. She also runs the Annual Conference on Jewelry & Related Arts in various locations throughout the U.S. and spearheads the annual Jewelry History Series in Miami, FL, which runs concurrently with The Original Miami Beach Antique Show.
Elyse has authored several books on Arts and Crafts jewelry and antique jewelry, including “Jewelry and Metalwork in the Arts and Crafts Tradition.” Her most recent curatorial efforts include “Maker & Muse: Women and 20th Century Art Jewelry” at the Richard H. Driehaus Museum, Chicago, now traveling to a number of venues; and “Out of this World! Jewelry in the Space Age” which opened at the Tellus Science Museum in Cartersville, GA in November 2020.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Northern Lights kinetic ring by Claudio Pino
Vintage Flying Saucer bracelets by Napier
Galaxy necklace with meteorite by Wayne Werner
Interstallar cufflinks by Mark Schneider
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Yvonne Markowitz
Yvonne J. Markowitz is the Rita J. Kaplan and Susan B. Kaplan Curator Emerita of Jewelry, Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, USA. Serving in the first curatorship of its kind in America, Markowitz oversaw the museum's exceptional collection of jewelry. She is also the past editor of the Journal of the American Society of Jewelry Historians, an editor of Adornment, the Magazine of Jewelry and Related Arts, co-director of the annual Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts Conference. (ASJRA), and the author of numerous jewelry-related books and articles. Her books include Artful Adornments: Jewelry from the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston; The Jewels of Trabert & Hoeffer-Mauboussin: A History of American Style and Innovation; and Jewels of Ancient Nubia (with Denise Doxey).
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Book: "Looking at Jewelry: A Guide to Terms, Styles and Techniques" By Susanne Gänsicke & Yvonne Markowitz
Yvonne J. Markowitz
A British Arts & Crafts brooch by John Paul Cooper -a leading figure in the Art& Crafts movement. Gold, ruby, moonstone, pearl, amethyst and chrysoprase, 1908
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Diana Pardue:
Diana Pardue is Curator of Collections at the Heard Museum, a Phoenix-based museum dedicated to the advancement of American Indian art. She is the author of several books, including “Shared Images: The Innovative Jewelry of Yazzie Johnson and Gail Bird” and “Contemporary Southwestern Jewelry.”
Native American jewelry has a long history in the Southwest, but few people truly appreciate the significance of this art form. The Heard Museum, a Phoenix-based museum dedicated to advancing Native American jewelry and arts, has been trying to change that since 1929. Diana Pardue, chief curator at the Heard Museum, joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Native American jewelry has changed over the years, the innovative techniques that Native American jewelers have used, and which indigenous jewelers you should be paying attention to today. Read the episode transcript here:
Additional Resources:
Photos:
Front of The Heard Museum in Phoenix, Arizona.
Native American Ring:
Native American Butterfly Pins:
Book: "Native American Bolo Ties"
Book: "Contemporary Southern Jewelry"
Book: "Shared Images"
Jewelry designer Castro’s unusual pieces are a reflection of his unusual entry into the world of jewelry. After starting out by selling his work from a table on the sidewalk in Soho, Castro has now become an internationally known artist with his own line, Castro NYC. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how he became a largely self-taught jeweler, the inspiration behind his fantastical work, and his experience as a Black jewelry designer now living in Istanbul. Read the episode transcript here.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Castro
Castro is an American master jeweler currently living and working in Istanbul. Sourcing conflict free diamonds and natural, untreated gemstones whenever possible, his pieces are fantastic, ethically made treasures. His singular design lens, creative spirit, bold personal style, and uncompromising approach to quality and uniqueness are evident in each of his extraordinary creations.
Additional Resources:
Photos:Each piece is based on ideas and dreams which he recreates in a 3D form to appeal to the eyes of the beholder. Their appreciation is what makes the piece come alive. As an artist and creator he is striving for the attention of his customer. Plain and simple.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Asagi Maeda
Asagi Maeda lives in Tokyo, where she makes jewelry and lectures on jewelry making at Jyoshibi University of Art and Design. She is fascinated by the notion of the city being a mass of boxes we can peer into and catch a glimpse of a stranger’s life. She’s translated this idea into her necklaces, bracelets, and rings, which feature tiny worlds. What delights her most about her creations is that people can both wear them as adornment and become part of the worlds they depict.
Asagi has been included in solo and group exhibitions at Mobilia Gallery, SOFA Chicago, LOOT, the National Ornamental Metal Museum, and Dan Ginza Gallery in Tokyo. Her work is part of the jewelry collections at the Museum of Arts and Design, the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston, and numerous international private collections.
Additional Resources
Stories on the planet - Newest work which must be exhibited at Mobilia Gallery right now
Necklace (consists of 7 brooches, a pair of earrings and a pin)
Sterling Silver, K18 yellow gold, Acrylic plate, Enamel, South sea pearl, Akoya pearls, CZ, Opal, Coral, Rock crystal quartz plates
"Folding the Laundry" pendant. 2019. sterling silver (rhodium,k18 plates), amazonite, methacrylate resin
"An objet d’art for players" 2018. Sterling silver, k18, Akoya pearls. W88 x D 88 x H69 mm
"JOY" Necklace. 2007. Sterling silver, k18, enamel on fine silver, enamel, milky amber, white sapphire
"Escape from the routine life"
Bracelet. 2002. Sterling silver, k18, acrylic glass, onyx, coral
As a Taos native and skilled goldsmith, David Anderson has a deep connection to Southwestern jewelry. That connection led him to a position on the board at the Millicent Rogers Museum, and a role repairing the famous socialite’s extensive jewelry collection. He joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about how Millicent became the foremost Southwestern jewelry collector of her time, his process for repairing her historically significant jewelry, and his own work as a goldsmith and mokume-gane expert. Read the episode transcript here.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About David Anderson
David Anderson is widely considered the foremost Taos repair expert, especially heirloom and vintage jewelry. He loves turning antique gems and settings into completely new works of art for his clients, and teaches jewelry making classes in his studio by appointment.
David is a native of Taos, New Mexico. His first experiences that led to a lifetime of goldsmithing were at a very early age while tinkering in his father’s workshop on the family ranch. In high school David’s first jewelry experience was with his Navajo friend who instructed him in the process of fixing a turquoise and silver watchband. This interest in intricacy led David to immerse himself in historic and spiritual jewelry styles. His time studying in New Mexico, New York, India, Italy, Egypt and Bali shows itself in dazzling and detailed metalwork.
David utilizes an assortment of fabrication techniques in his designs, which include hydraulic die forming, chasing and repoussé, engraving and lapidary techniques. He makes his own mokume gane mixed metal for his carved “Guri Bori” rings. David’s style continues to evolve, but the underlying theme in his work is mastery of technique.
Additional resources:
David Anderson.
Photo credit: "Taos News photographer" Morgan Timms.
Millicent Rogers "Sunset Straws" Necklace, Designed by Millicent Rogers, Repaired by David Anderson. Photo Credit Carmella Quinto
"3 Nugget Gold Ring" designed by Millicent Rogers reproduced by David Anderson for the Museum Store. Photo Credit David Anderson
"H" Bracelet in sterling silver, Designed by Millicent Rogers, reproduced for the Millicent Rogers Store by David Anderson. Photo Credit David Anderson
Grouping of Millicent Rogers jewelry designs "Ulu, Spirit, Double Barr, Group" reproduced for the Millicent Rogers Store by David Anderson. Photo Credit David Anderson
Front of Millicent Rogers Museum, Photo credit Courtesy of Millicent Rogers Museum.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Shirley Mueller
Shirley M. Mueller, MD is an internationally known collector and scholar of Chinese export porcelain, as well as a physician board-certified in neurology and psychiatry. This latter expertise led her to explore her own intentions while collecting art, which, she discovered, are applicable to all art collectors. This understanding is the motivation for her book, Inside the Head of a Collector: Neuropsychological Forces at Play. In addition to writing books and academic papers, she is frequently invited to present guest lectures and curate exhibitions based on her extensive porcelain collection and the neuropsychology of the art collector.
Collectors might know they’re drawn to a certain type of art or jewelry, but they often don’t know why. Shirley Mueller, a physician board certified in neurology and psychiatry and a longtime collector of Chinese export porcelain, wanted to know what made her (and all collectors) tick. Her book, Inside the Head of a Collector: Neuropsychological Forces at Play delves into the neuropsychology that makes collectors want to collect. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the impulses that keep collectors going, the knowledge that can help collectors make better decisions, and her own journey as an internationally known collector of Chinese export porcelain. Read the episode transcript here.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
Now entering its third round, Art Jewelry Forum’s Susan Beech Mid-Career Artist Grant is an incredible opportunity for mid-career makers, authors, educators, historians, and other art jewelry experts and aficionados. AFJ board member Bonnie Levine has seen every application that has been submitted since 2016, and she’s learned exactly what makes a winning application. She joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to explain how to apply for the grant, who the award is open to, and her tips for creating a compelling proposal.
About Bonnie Levine:
Bonnie Levine is the former co-owner of Hedone Gallery, an online gallery focusing on contemporary art jewelry that is one-of-a-kind or of limited production. She loved and bought contemporary studio jewelry for many years, determined to become a gallerist when she left the corporate world. She is also on the board of Art Jewelry Forum, where she is responsible for administering the organization’s grants for artists.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Susan Beech
Susan Beech is an avid jewelry collector and longtime member of Art Jewelry Forum. Her extensive collection of art jewelry has been featured in several museum shows, and she was awarded the 2008 McColl Award for her work in expanding the permanent collection of the Mint Museum. She created the Susan Beech Mid-Career Artist Grant in 2016 to provide mid-career artists with the resources to push the boundaries of their work and expand the field of art jewelry.
After seeing her children reach middle age and struggle to balance their dreams with work and family life, jewelry collector Susan Beech realized that many jewelry artists face the same challenge. Although there are numerous grants for young, emerging artists, the is a gap in resources for mid-career artists who want to continue their work. This was the inspiration behind Art Jewelry Forum’s Susan Beech Mid-Career Artist Grant, a $20,000 award given to one mid-career artist every other year. Susan joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about her hopes for grant recipients, why the award isn’t just limited to makers, and how the two past winners have already made an impact.
Additional resources
Photos:
Judges, Susan Beech, Daniel Kruger, and Emily Stoehrer
First winner of the Susan Beech Mid-Career Grant: Christina Filipe (middle) with Susan Beech (left) and Rebekah Frank (right)
Second annual winner of the Susan Beech Mid-Career Grant: Tiff Massey
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Raïssa Bump
Born in 1980, Raïssa Bump earned a BFA in metals from Rhode Island School of Design in 2003 and studied jewelry with Giampaolo Babetto at Alchimia in Florence, Italy. She has been actively involved in the contemporary jewelry field and is well versed at making both intricate one-of-a-kind pieces and beautiful edition collections. Raïssa’s work is collected widely and has been included in various Lark Book publications and in the pages of Metalsmith magazine. She exhibits with galleries such as Sienna Patti Contemporary, teaches workshops at Penland School of Crafts , Haystack Mountain School of Crafts, Arrowmont School of Arts and Crafts, and is on the board of Art Jewelry Forum. Raïssa grew up in the Hudson River Valley and currently lives and works in a storefront in San Francisco, CA, with her husband Jonathan Anzalone.
Additional resources
Photos:
Triangle Drop CONSTELLATION Necklace
sterling silver, glass beads
Catcher Mica Necklace- Sterling Silver, MicaMica used is a composite mica which is a combination of two natural substances: the mineral mica and shellac (a resin secreted by the female lac bug). Resulting mica is unique in color, I use a greyish smoke and a golden color. Please understand that part of the beauty in working with any kind of mica is its one-of-a-kind nature. Each disc is slightly different than the next.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sofia Björkman
Sofia Bjorkman didn’t intend to create a globally known art jewelry gallery when she opened Platina in Stockholm 20 years ago; she just wanted to have a space where she and her friends could showcase their work. However, Platina quickly became known for its collaborative exhibitions with jewelry artists from around the world. Sofia joined the Jewelry Journey Podcast to talk about the history and future of Platina, her own work as a jewelry designer, and why she thinks the global art jewelry community is so tight-knit.
Additional resources
Photos:
Annette Dam Necklace
"Taking the liberty" #4 2019
Silver, pearls, ribbon
Annika Pettersson Necklace
"Royal Resolution" 2019
Reconstructed stone, silver
Christer Jonsson Necklace
"Frida" 2018
Silver, titanium, enamel, pate du verre, glass
Christer Jonsson Necklace
"Garden of Death Silver" 1996
Titanium
Heejoo Kim Brooch 2019
copper, enamel
Helena Johansson Lindell Necklace Collar 2020
Plastic/cotton cord/leather/rivets
Julia Walters Necklace 2017 / 2020
"Hotlips"
stainless steel, chromed
Karin Roy Andersson Necklace 2018
"New flesh"
silver, steel, thread
Lena Bergestad Bracelet
Titanium Silver
Linnea Eriksson Necklace
"Tribute" 2014
Steel, silver, paint
Sofia Björkman Necklace
"Garden" 2020
PLA, steel, paint
Sofia Björkman Brooch 2019
Silver, steel (seam rippers)
Sofia Björkman Necklace
"Garden" 2020
PLA, steel, paint
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sylvie Corbelin:
Antiques dealer turned gemologist Sylvie Corbelin is renowned for intricate, exquisitely detailed designs that celebrate jewels in many forms. Antique and rare stones feature prominently in Sylvie Corbelin jewelry, delivering many designs that are truly one of a kind. Ethereal, graceful subjects such as butterflies are a prominent theme, expertly realized on striking mobile earrings or lifelike brooches. Visually stimulating and dripping with luxury elements, Sylvie Corbelin jewelry delivers statements that will be talked about for generations. She launched her eponymous fine jewelry brand in 2007 and today works out of her studio in the Le Marais district of Paris.
Additional resources
Photos of Sylvie's work:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Loretta Lam
As a child, Loretta Lam would play with her mother's vintage button box, making extravagant necklaces for dress-up games. As she grew up, Lam 's love of jewelry design never left her, and it all came together years later when she found polymer clay. With its limitless possibilities for bead shape and color, it allowed Lam to realize her artistic dreams. Lam works directly from a strong color inspiration which informs the millefiori patterns that become the surface design. She forms sculptural base shapes one at a time, then veneers them with thin sheets of the patterned clay. She takes great care in the design and craftsmanship of each element and finished piece of jewelry. Lam is a graduate of SUNY New Paltz's renowned BFA metalsmithing program, where she focused on enamels and painting. In 1999, Lam started experimenting with polymer clay and found the direct access to color she'd always dreamed of. It has turned into a love affair which is always fresh and new.
Additional Resources:
Photos:
More info about her book here!
Under Cover: is a brooch that is evocative of a nest. It draws you in by mixing a domed and convex form. It's about safety and secrets and comfort. 2.75" in diameter and .6" deep. Polymers with a nickel silver pinback.
The Red Pod: I love working in asymmetry. Finding unusual ways to create movement and balance is my kind of artistic challenge. This necklace uses color, repetition, and isolation to create the dynamic tensions. 22" of polymer beads with coconut shell, ceramic and wooden spacer beads and a covered barrel clasp.
Sculpted Leaf Choker: This piece is hand sculpted in very light polymer and covered with patterned veneers. It's part fantasy and part reality but shows all my love for the natural world. 4.5" sculpted form strung on steel cable with a friction clasp.
Copper and Verdigris is a beautiful interpretation of Autumn in New York. The colors and textures of my native woodlands and that cozy feeling of the changing seasons. 8" of unique hollow-formed beads on sterling, embellished with millefiori patterning.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Penny Morrill:
Dr. Penny Morrill has developed a history of modern Mexican silver, using primary sources. She participated in establishing the Sutherland Taxco Collection at Tulane University’s Latin American Library and has assisted in the development of modern Mexican silver collections at the Los Angeles County of Museum of Art and at the Museum of Fine Arts Boston. Morrill’s books include Mexican Silver, Silver Masters of Mexico, the exhibit catalog Mastros de Plata, and Margot Van Voorhies. She remains committed to supporting contemporary Mexican silver designs. Morrill’s other passion, colonial Mesoamerican art, is revealed in her monograph on a sixteenth century urban palace in Puebla, Mexico, The Casa Del Deán.
Additional Resources:
William Spratling. Carved green stone shell necklace, cuff bracelet, earrings, and ring. c. 1940-44. earl Zubkoff, photographer
William Spratling.Stela 1 cuff bracelet. c. 1940. John McCloskey, photographer.
Photographer: John McCloskey.
(second view)
Margot de Taxco. Encircled Lines. Necklace and bracelet #5652. Enamel on silver. c. 1955. Luisa DiPietro, photographer
Los Castillo (Margot Van Voorhies). Surrealist Fish. c. 1940-44. Luisa DiPietro, photographer
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Julie Bishop and Amy Wilson:
Juler's Row began in 2011 as a jewelry blog by founder, Julie Bishop. New to the industry, Julie used the blog as a way to immerse herself in the world of jewelry and learn as much as possible about all aspects of the business.
After many years and many blog posts, Julie decided to take Juler's Row in a new direction. Shortly thereafter, a collaboration ensued between Julie and her mom, Amy Wilson, to create "jewelry art". Amy, an interior designer and artist, took Julie's ideas and brought them to life in the form of watercolor. The "jewelry art" is available as paper prints, canvas prints, wallpaper and many other mediums. Over the years the collection has grown to include jewelry as well as clothing.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Andrea Gutierrez:
Andrea Gutierrez is the owner and designer of Andrea Gutierrez Jewelry. Age-old artisanal techniques have always given Andrea Gutierrez Jewelry its muscular, roughed-up glamour. The refined yet imperfectly shaped spheres, dagger-like spikes and scarred surfaces offset with precious gemstones and marble-size pearls are an edgy presence in the world of fine jewelry.
Inspired by art and architecture, engaging both the Brutalist and the Baroque, Andrea prodigiously produces unique modern designs with heirloom potential. As fearless and committed as any sculptor, Andrea hand-carves and casts her pieces in solid gold and solid sterling silver, often accented with a spray of precious or semi-precious stones and maybe a Tahitian or South Sea pearl as big as a gumball.
Bold but never vulgar, brilliant but not glitzy…more Met Museum than Mar-a-Lago, these pieces project their polyglot appeal with exquisitely layered and imaginatively applied materials referencing both ancient and modern culture.
Additional resources:
All Photography by: Elio Tolot: www.eliotolot.com
Ruffle band in 18k yellow gold, uneven band in sterling silver and uneven band in black rhodium
Two uneven bands in 18k yellow gold, 1 ruffle band in 18k yellow gold set with green tourmalines
Wide and narrow collar rings in 18k yellow gold set with rubies, white diamonds
Couture Cuff – Circles
Hand embroidered vintage and antique round and cut glass and metal seed beads on silk
Couture Cuff - Circles - Sterling silver clasp
Couture cuff - Circles – detail
Couture Cuff - Sunday Afternoon - seed pearls, rutilated quartz, vintage round and faceted seed beads, Thai silver, sterling silver
Couture Cuff - Sunday Afternoon - Sterling silver clasp
Couture Cuff - Sunday Afternoon - Detail - Thai silver, vintage beads, rutilated quartz
Couture Cuff - Sunday Afternoon - another view
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Marie Betteley:
Marie Betteley is a leading authority on Russian jewels and Imperial Russian decorative arts, and the President of Marie E. Betteley, Inc., an online shop where customers find exquisitely crafted jewels and treasures from the most fascinating places in the world.
Beginning her career at the New York branch of Christie’s auction house, Marie quickly moved up in the company working in the Russian department. After 10 years, Marie opened her own gallery in New York and started trading in Fabergé and jewels.
She regularly consults for auction houses, museums and private collectors globally, and is a respected private dealer, professional speaker, tour guide and author of Beyond Fabergé, Russian Imperial Jewelers.
Additional resources:
Photo Descriptions
Russian grand collar of the Imperial Order of St. Andrew set with diamonds, ca. 1795. Diamond Fund of the Moscow Kremlin. Photo by Nikolai Rakhmanov
Diamond and Gold Crown Pin, 19th century. A royal crown of stylized design, bezel set with a cushion-cut diamond below a rose diamond Maltese cross, the borders and bands set with rose diamonds that graduate in size, many within diamond-shaped bezels. Mounted in 18k gold.
Cover of Marie’s upcoming book: “Beyond Fabergé: Imperial Russian Jewelry,” October 28th release. Now available by preorder on Amazon. With Beyond Fabergé you’ll discover there is so much more to Russian jewelry than Fabergé.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Valerie Jo Coulson
Valerie Jo Coulson is an American designer whose brand is strongly defined by her personality and philosophy. She has worked as a studio jewelry designer, metalsmith and lapidary for more than 35 years. Her background is in Fine and Decorative Arts with particular interests in art history, architecture and design.
All of her pieces, unique as they are, have strong emotional and literary connections and are created first and foremost for herself, but “within the context of communicating a collective consciousness.” Valerie‘s traditional fabrication methods and the prolific and intricate use of stone inlay, as well as her choice of materials make a strong visual impact.
Hey Additional resources:
‘Heaven and Earth’ bracelet fabricated in 18k Gold inlaid with Australian Opal, Sugilite, Turquoise, Tiger Iron, Black Jade and Jasper.
The 'Firenze' Bracelet, Sterling Silver, inlaid with Tiger Iron, Purple Agate and Cady Mountain Agate. 'Best of Show' 2017, Saul Bell Design Awards. In reverence to a nearly lifelong enchantment with the artists and architects of Florence Italy, cradle to the Renaissance.
'The Echinacea' Teapot and Trivit, Sterling Silver with oxidation, inlaid with Pink Rhodonite and Chrysoprase. 'Second Place' Holloware/Art Objects, 2019 Saul Bell Design Awards. The seen and unseen order of nature and the cosmos; interrelation and interdependence.
'The Gauntlet' Cuff, 22k Gold, 14k Gold (inner band fabrication), Queensland Black Boulder Opals, Ruby, inlaid with Black Jade, Chrysoprase, Coober Pedy Opal and Almandite Garnet.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Susan Cummins:
Susan Cummins has been involved in numerous ways in the visual arts world over the last 35 years, from working in a pottery studio, doing street fairs, running a retail shop called the Firework in Mill Valley and developing the Susan Cummins Gallery into a nationally recognized venue for regional art and contemporary art jewelry. Now she spends most of her time working with a private family foundation called Rotasa and as a board member of both Art Jewelry Forum and California College of the Arts.
Additional resources:
"Gold Makes you Blind" by Otto Künzli. Synthetic rubber and 18K gold. This bracelet looks like a black, rubber bracelet, but it has a little, round bump partway along the tube, and in that little bump is a piece of gold.
Kadri Mälk, Angel Desperado, 2002, ebony, silver, purple rhodolite, blue raw spinel, 65 x 45 mm, 86 x 51 x 1 mm, photo courtesy of Rotasa Foundation.
Blitzableiterkette by Bernhard Schobinger
Susan Cummins wearing Dorothea Pruhl.
Art Jewelry Forum logo.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Karen Davidov:
Karen Davidov is an independent art and design producer with experience working in libraries as a researcher, on libraries as a designer and with libraries as a public art consultant. Karen pursued her passion for jewelry and jewelry research as a dealer of 20th Century Decorative Arts for many years. The Jewelry Library is an extension of her work with librarians and curators creating spaces and programs that invite and engage community.
Additional resources:
Inside The Jewelry Library
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Matthew Imberman:
Matthew Imberman, along with his sister Carrie, are the co-presidents of Kentshire Galleries. Established in 1940 and spanning three generations of family ownership, Kentshire Galleries is one of the foremost dealers of fine period and estate jewelry. In 1988, Kentshire established a free-standing boutique in New York’s premier luxury store, Bergdorf Goodman. Their antique and estate jewelry department continues to occupy a select location on the store’s seventh floor. As the third generation of the family to lead Kentshire, Matthew and Carrie continue to refine the gallery’s founding vision: buying and selling outstanding jewelry and objects of enduring design and elegance.
Additional resources:
A rare Iron Age style antique gold torque of engraved design with reeded terminals, in 14k. Michelsen of Copenhagen. See Charlotte Gere and Judy Rudoe's Jewellery in the Age of Queen Victoria, The British Museum Press, 2010, pg. 438 (plate 432) for an image of a nearly identical necklace as presented by Denmark to Princess Alexandra on the occasion of her marriage to Prince Albert of Wales.
A Retro gold bracelet of ribbon loop design with alternating smooth and fluted links, in 18k. Signed Cartier-Paris.
An Art Moderne clip brooch in the industrial style set with a cushion-cut aquamarine, in platinum and 18k white gold. France.
A gold, onyx, and chrysoprase ring comprised of curved, graduated onyx plaques separated by a chrysoprase plaque, centered by a domed gold fastener with gold eyelets, in 18k. Aldo Cipullo for Cartier.
A pair of antique rose-cut diamond earrings of foliate design terminating in drop diamond pendants in diamond surrounds, in sterling silver and 18k gold. France
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Adi Raffeld Podhorzer:
Adi is an Israeli fashion designer and owner of the boutique brand ADI RAFFELD PODHORZER, which operates in the Israeli and international designing field. The unique designs of ADI RAFFELD PODHORZER include fashion, jewelry and a large variety of spectacular ornaments. Adi creates one-of-a-kind clothing items and jewelry.
She uses unconventional materials such as Perspex, leather, aluminum, plastic and various materials. All items are hand crafted by Adi, from the designing stage to the final production.
Additional Resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Saudia Young and Cara Croninger:
Cara Croninger was a pioneer in the art of acrylic and polyester resin jewelry and sculpture design and manufacture. She started working in leather, crafting obi belts and fringed and painted pouch bags that she sold on the street. Cara taught herself how to pour liquid resin and, once it hardened, carve earrings, bracelets, and what would become one of her strongest signatures, heart-shaped pendants, out of the stuff, taking cues from global jewelry traditions and tapping into the talismanic potential of body art. She made her mark as one of the original artists of Robert Lee Morris's ARTWEAR Gallery in Soho. Her work graced the covers of Vogue, on the super models of the time including Iman, Claudia Schiffer, Christy Turlington. Cara’s work was collected by Zahah Hadid and in permanent collection of museums including the Museum of Art and Design in NYC.
Saudia is a writer, actress and singer with growling, soul-drenched vocals and a ‘Noir Rhythm & Blues’ band.
About Lisa M. Berman*:
Lisa M. Berman, is known as the Visionary Proprietor of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. Berman curates exhibitions and places collections into museums, as well as offering an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects via her gallery to discerning collectors, media and art institutions, which have been featured in multiple films, television and publications. She is the founder of Berman Arts Agency and Director of the Oropeza Sculpture Garden.
*No relation to host Sharon Berman
Additional resources:
Saudia Young and Cara Croninger:
Lisa Berman:
To see a video of this interview, please click here
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Elyse Karlin:
Elyse Zorn Karlin is the co-director of the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts (ASJRA) and publisher of Adornment, a magazine of jewelry and related arts. She also runs the Annual Conference on Jewelry and Related Arts in various locations throughout the U.S. and spearheads the annual Jewelry History Series in Miami, FL, which runs concurrently with The Original Miami Beach Antique Show.
Elyse has authored several books on Arts and Crafts jewelry and antique jewelry, including “Jewelry and Metalwork in the Arts and Crafts Tradition.” Her most recent curatorial efforts include “Maker & Muse: Women and 20th Century Art Jewelry” at the Richard H. Driehaus Museum, Chicago, now traveling to a number of venues; an upcoming exhibition “Out of this World! Jewelry in the Space Age” which opens at the Tellus Science Museum in Cartersville, GA in November 2020.
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Robert Sorrell:
Robert Sorrell is the founder of Sorrell Originals which creates original, one-of-a-kind costume jewelry prized for its distinctive design. Robert’s jewels have appeared in the most prestigious collections in the world. All of his pieces are unique; while there may be more than one version of some pieces, no two pieces are identical. Sorrell Originals’ jewels have accessorized Paris Couture, Broadway and Off-Broadway shows, the New York City Ballet, Cirque du Soleil, Victoria’s Secret runway shows, Hollywood films and television, and have been worn by celebrities as diverse as RuPaul and Madeleine Albright.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Uri Samet:
Uri Samet is the co-founder of the Alice Gottesman Jewelry Design Department at Shenkar College in Israel, where he served as a senior lecturer and member of the faculty until appointed head of the Department. He teaches courses in eyeglasses, watch design, gold and silversmithing, while working in conjunction with external companies. Uri also has his own independent studio, where he works on diverse projects across the industry. Over the years, he has exhibited in numerous exhibitions in Israel and abroad.
Uri holds a master’s degree in design from the University of Middlesex in London and a bachelor's degree from the Bezalel Academy of Art and Design. Upon completion of his studies, Uri attended a continued design program at the vocational gold and silversmithing school, Centro di Formazione Professionale in Florence, Italy.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Galit Reismann:
Israeli tastemaker, entrepreneur, curator and fashion-content expert Galit Reismann decided to combine her passion for fashion with her deep connection to Tel Aviv. Her initial concept was to expose visitors to the inside of Israel’s emerging fashion design scene. With a keen interest to meet people of different walks of life and cultures, Galit decided to create TLVstyle, a service that serves as a hub to connect, engage and promote Israeli fashion.
Galit brings to TLVstyle a rich professional experience in media management, fashion and export. Previously, Galit helped Israeli designers to establish new markets, primarily in the U.S., where she worked with procurement managers and buyers. She aims to promote fashion tourism by exposing upcoming Israeli designers and their unique fingerprint to international audiences in experiential and innovative ways. From customized tours, to events and special projects, Galit tailors and curates exquisite encounters with Israeli fashion makers and provide them with the recognition they deserve.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Bárbara Coutinho:
Bárbara Coutinho has been the director and programmer of MUDE, Museum of Design and Fashion in Lisbon, since 2006. Located in the heart of Lisbon's historical center, MUDE explores the concept of design, showing its new trends and directions in the 21st century and discussing the relationship between design, arts and crafts, and urban, socioeconomic, environmental and technological challenges.
Bárbara is also the guest assistant professor at Instituto Superior Técnico (University of Lisbon), where she teaches architecture theory and history. She is a member of Docomomo International and the Bienal Iberoamericana de Diseño organization’s advisory board. Bárbara has extensive experience in research, teaching, curatorship and writing, as well as museology and curating, museum architecture and exhibition space, design, education and contemporary creation.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Cherie Burns:
Cherie Burns is the author of “Diving for Starfish—The Jeweler, The Actress, The Heiress and One of the World’s Most Alluring Pieces of Jewelry” (St. Martin’s Press, 2018), which details her search for three ruby and amethyst starfish brooches created in Paris in the 1930s. Her earlier published books include the biography “Searching for Beauty—The Life of Millicent Rogers” (St. Martin’s Press, 2012), “The Great Hurricane: 1938 (Grove/Atlantic, 2005) and “Stepmotherhood—How to Survive Without Feeling Frustrated, Left Out or Wicked” (Times Books).
Cherie has been a feature journalist since 1975 and her work has appeared in The New York Times Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, People, Glamour, New York, Sports Illustrated, Constitution and other publications.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Rachel Kaplan:
Rachel Kaplan is the owner of French Links Tours, the only American-owned and operated high-end luxury tour and events company in all of France. French Links Tours offers customized tours of Paris, including jewelry tours as well as tours in the United Kingdom, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Scotland, Spain and Greece. Rachel has been helping people purchase vintage jewelry since 1996.
Born into a family of Francophiles, Rachel was educated at the Lyçée Français de New York. She has lived in Paris since 1994, where she wrote and published six books, including a series entitled "Little-Known Museums in and Around" for Harry N. Abrams on four major European capitals: Paris, London, Berlin and Rome.”
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Rebekah Frank:
Rebekah Frank is a jewelry artist and metalsmith whose chosen material is steel, a fascination discovered through a challenge received when she was 18. Her creative practice has focused on steel ever since, as she worked as a blacksmith, a welder, a machinist and, currently, a jeweler. Rebekah’s studio practice is based in the Mission District of San Francisco, CA, and she exhibits, lectures and teaches workshops all over the world.
Rebekah worked with Art Jewelry Forum, an international nonprofit dedicated to the appreciation of art jewelry, from 2012 to 2018, leading the organization as the Executive Director from 2015 to 2018. She is currently a member of The Outpost, an activation group focused on how art jewelry can exist in the world.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Diana Holstein:
Diana Holstein has worked as a designer for Tiffany & Co., Ralph Lauren, Royal Copenhagen and Georg Jensen Damask, among others. In 2006, she trained as a goldsmith at The Institute of Precious Metals and shortly after, teamed up with designer Hanan Emquies to found Emquies-Holstein. The studio creates personalized jewelry with respect for modern tradition and an eye for renewal. In 2014, Diana was appointed Master of the Copenhagen Goldsmiths’ Guild.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Whitney Abrams:
Whitney Abrams’ high karat gold creations are a reflection of her love of the Renaissance aesthetic and her admiration for the technical abilities of the Ancients. Inspired by the rich tones of high karat gold and intense hues of unique, precious stones, her hand-made pieces involve the wearer in an experience of regal beauty.
Whitney’s interest in intaglios and cameos has led her to develop relationships with several German carvers who provide her clients with custom carvings that connect them with her creations on an unparalleled level.
Whitney has studied goldsmithing and exhibited her jewelry throughout the United States and Europe. Her work is included in a number of publications on the subject of jewelry as an art form and jewelry making techniques. She also presents her collections privately to clients throughout the country as well as online.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Allison Barnett:
Allison Barnett is the co-owner of Patina Gallery in Santa Fe, New Mexico. She holds a BFA in metalsmithing from Syracuse University and is considered an authority on art jewelry. Allison works closely with Patina’s patrons and shares the responsibility of managing all aspects of the gallery with her husband, Ivan Barnett. She and Ivan collaborate and curate exhibitions that are seductive in the way they time and again invite art lovers back to the gallery. Allison, possessing intimate knowledge of the arts and artists, offers collectors a deep connection to makers and their unique creative processes.
Additional Resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Esther de Beaucé:
Esther de Beaucé is the founder and owner of Galerie MiniMasterpiece in Paris, France. MiniMasterpiece is a gallery entirely dedicated to contemporary artists, designers and architects’ jewelry. The gallery is an invitation given to those who usually never design jewelry because their work evolves on a more monumental scale (i.e. sculptures). Esther’s passion is to convince those artists to change the scale of their work and accompany them in that new field of wearable art. She has collaborated with acclaimed contemporary artists such as Phillip King, Bernar Venet, Andres Serrano, Lee Ufan, Jean-Luc Moulène, and Pablo Reinoso.
Esther previously co-owned the gallery Schirman & de Beaucé in Paris, dedicated to young artists of contemporary art.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Suzanne Martinez:
Suzanne is a highly credentialed senior gemologist, jewelry appraiser, jewelry historian and the curator for Lang Antique & Estate Jewelry, offering the largest collection of fine vintage engagement rings and antique jewels to be found under one roof. She joined Lang in 1992 and actively buys from sellers all over the world. Suzanne is also the founder of Lang’s Antique Jewelry University.
Among her many jewelry credentials, include: Graduate Gemologist degree from the Gemological Institute of America; GIA Alumni Chapter co-president since 1992; National Association of Jewelry Appraisers, Senior Member; Accredited Gemologists Association, Accredited Senior Gemologist; National Association of Jewelry Appraisers, Senior Member.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Sarah Nehama:
Sarah Nehama has been creating one-of-a-kind, fine jewelry for the past 25 years and has a studio in the Providence, Rhode Island, area. She also collects antique mourning and sentimental jewelry, co-curated an exhibit on mourning jewelry and art with Massachusetts Historical Society and authored a book on the subject. Sarah has lectured at numerous museums and historical societies both in the United States and abroad and has presented to American Society of Appraisers on mourning and sentimental jewelry.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Costume Jewelry Collectors International:
CJCI is a global network dedicated to the study, enjoyment and promotion of collectible costume jewelry. The organization brings people together through yearly conventions held around the United States, social networking, and sharing of jewelry information and resources.
About Pamela Wiggins Siegel:
Pamela Wiggins Siegel is a freelance writer, editor and appraiser specializing in antiques and collectibles with an emphasis on costume jewelry. She has been buying, selling and collecting vintage costume jewelry for more than 30 years. Pamela currently sells vintage jewelry through her Chic Antiques by Pamela, RubyLane.com shop and eBay as well as at The Austin Antique Mall in Austin, Texas. She is the author of “Warman’s Costume Jewelry: Identification and Price Guide,” which covers jewelry ranging from late-Victorian to contemporary collectible pieces. Her past works include “Warman’s Jewelry 5th Edition: Identification and Price Guide; Buying & Selling Antiques and Collectibles on eBay” and “Collecting with Kids: How to Inspire, Intrigue and Guide the Young Collector.”
About Pamela Wiggins Siegel:
Melinda Lewis is a jewelry historian who has been involved with the online vintage costume jewelry community for the last 14 years. She has worked with internationally renowned fashion stylists and publishers to provide jewelry for books and print-based advertising in magazines. Her jewelry collection has been featured in M.A.C., Anna Sui and Pascali print advertising as well as in “Vintage Jewellery: Collecting and Wearing 20th Century Designs,” “Carltons Vintage by Caroline Cox,” Adore Magazine, Traditional Home magazine and on the cover of Vogue Italia. She is the author of “The Napier Co.: Defining 20th Century American Costume Jewelry” and writes a monthly column for Your True Colours magazine.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About “Boston Made Arts and Crafts Jewelry and Metalwork” Exhibit
The “Boston Made: Arts and Crafts Jewelry and Metalwork” exhibit focuses exclusively on the Arts and Crafts metalsmiths in Boston and highlights the contributions of newly empowered women artists such as Josephine Hartwell Shaw and Elizabeth Copeland, among others. “Boston Made” brings together more than 75 works, including jewelry, tableware, decorative accessories and design drawings that illuminate the passions and philosophies of this interwoven community of jewelry makers and metalsmiths. The exhibit is on display until March 29, 2020.
About Nonie Gadsden
Nonie Gadsden is the Katharine Lane Weems Senior Curator of American Decorative Arts and Sculpture at Museum of Fine Arts, Boston (MFA). She helped plan and install the MFA’s award-winning Art of the Americas Wing comprised of 53 galleries featuring the arts of North, Central and South America (opened 2010). Her exhibitions include “Nature, Sculpture, Abstraction and Clay: 100 Years of American Ceramics” (2015), “Sisters in Art: Women Painters and Designers from the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston” (2013) and “A New and Native Beauty: The Art and Craft of Greene & Greene” (2009).
In addition to numerous articles, essays and book reviews, Nonie is the author of Art and Reform: Sara Galner, the Saturday Evening Girls and the Paul Revere Pottery (2006) and Louis Comfort Tiffany: Parakeets Window (2018), and co-author of Boston Arts and Crafts Jewelry: Frank Gardner Hale and His Circle (2018). She heads the Collections Committee of the Nichols House Museum on Boston’s Beacon Hill, serves as a Governor for the Decorative Arts Trust, and is a member of the Council of the Colonial Society of Massachusetts.
Additional resources:
What you’ll learn in this episode:
About Stefanie Walker:
Stefanie Walker received her Ph.D. in art history from New York University’s Institute of Fine Arts, and specializes in European sculpture and decorative arts from the 16th through 18th centuries, with an emphasis on the history of jewelry and the arts of Rome. For ten years, Stefanie curated exhibitions and taught graduate courses at Bard Graduate Center for Studies in the Decorative Arts (BGC) in New York City. At BGC, she co-edited and contributed to the exhibition catalogs for Life and the Arts in the Baroque Palaces of Rome: Ambiente Barocco (1998) and Vasemania: Form and Ornament in Neoclassical Europe (2004). Her background as a certified goldsmith led to the BGC exhibition and catalog Castellani and Italian Archaeological Jewelry (2004), a publication on the Renaissance “Jewel Book” of the Dukes of Bavaria (2008) and two contributions to The Metropolitan Museum of Art’s catalog for The Silver Caesars: A Renaissance Mystery (2017).
Stefanie is a Fellow of the American Academy in Rome and an honorary member of the Roman Goldsmith’s Guild. She is an adjunct faculty member of the master’s program in the History of Decorative Arts run jointly by The Smithsonian Associates and George Washington University. She currently works as a Senior Program Officer at the National Endowment for the Humanities.
Stefanie lectures frequently at The Smithsonian and for jewelry groups, including the American Society of Jewelry Historians, Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, D.C. GIA Alumni, among others.
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About Veronica Staudt
Veronica Staudt is the founder of Vintage Meet Modern, an online boutique specializing in designer and vintage jewelry and accessories. She has more than twenty years of styling experience, showing women and retailers how easy it is to mix vintage jewelry with modern clothes. Veronica provides an upscale shopping experience and is devoted to helping women look and feel their best through unique jewelry and accessories. She has worked with fashion brands such as J. Crew and Ann Taylor, local boutiques and more.
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Julia Gogosha is the founder and owner of Gogosha Optique, a high-end, service-and design-driven optical boutique located in the Echo Park area of Los Angeles. Gogosha Optique features high-end international eyewear and sunglass collections from designers such as Anne et Valentin, Barton Parreira, Cutler and Gross, Derome Brenner, Kirk Originals and Oliver Goldsmith, and a wide selection of vintage frames. Julia helps facilitate the connection between the eyewear wearer and the designer.
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About The Original Miami Beach Antique Show:
The Original Miami Beach Antique Show (OMBAS) presents more than 700 recognized dealers from over 30 countries for five days. OMBAS boasts the most intelligent vendors in the world; showcasing their phenomenal collections as well their vast expertise. Attendees can explore the show floor and discover everything from jewelry, watches and handbags to artwork, furniture, home décor and so much more.
About Michelle Orman:
Michelle Orman currently works with all of the shows in the Emerald Exposition Jewelry Group, which includes The COUTURE Show, JA New York Shows and U.S. Antique Shows. She works closely with press, as well as the marketing teams for each of these shows. Michelle spearheads programs and initiatives that add value to both exhibitors and attendees of each of the shows within this portfolio.
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About Jane Groover
A practicing metalsmith and jewelry artist, Jane Groover is a co-founder of Taboo Studio, a contemporary art jewelry gallery based in San Diego, California. Taboo Studio was established more than 30 years ago and represents over 75 artists who are locally, nationally and internationally recognized. Each artist is known for their distinct style and use of materials. Taboo Studio also designs and creates custom jewelry for clients utilizing their stones or gems from the gallery’s collection.
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The Art Jewelry Forum’s (AJF) Young Artist Award celebrates innovative designs created by a jewelry artist early in their career. The biennial award recognizes new and exciting work that will direct the future development of art jewelry. Bonnie Levine, Secretary on the AJF board, manages AJF’s two award/grant programs and plans the annual international trip for members.
AJF is a nonprofit organization spreading awareness and increasing appreciation of art jewelry worldwide by advocating for art jewelry through an ambitious agenda of education, conversation and financial support.
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Founded in 1928 by Eugene Joseff, Joseff of Hollywood became the premier costume jeweler in Hollywood, designing, manufacturing and renting jewelry to movie studios. Then, based on demand, he extended into a retail line. Joseff was the most prestigious name in on-screen jewelry during the Golden Era of Hollywood, providing up to 90% of the jewelry on-screen in the 1940s. Joseff jewelry was prominently featured on icons such as Marilyn Monroe in Gentlemen Prefer Blondes and Some Like It Hot; Vivian Leigh in Gone with the Wind; Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra; and many other legends. Each design was meticulously designed by Eugene Joseff to be genuine-looking on screen.
Three generations later, Joseff of Hollywood has over 100,000 pieces in their “jewelry box” and continues to rent jewelry out of their original Burbank studio, most recently for shows such as HBO’s Westworld, and to celebrity stylists for special occasions such as pop star Camila Cabello’s performance at the iHeartRadio awards.
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The “Ancient Nubia Now” exhibit on display at the Museum of Fine Arts, Boston (MFA) through January 20, 2020, confronts past misinterpretations and offers new ways of understanding Nubia’s history and contemporary relevance. The exhibit includes jewelry, pottery, sculpture, metalwork and more from MFA’s collection of ancient Nubian art, and examines power, representation and cultural bias in the ancient world, in the early 20th century and today. The exhibit was spearheaded by Denise Doxey, Curator of Ancient Egyptian, Nubian and Near Eastern Art at the MFA.
Prior to joining MFA, Denise was Keeper of the Egyptian Section of the University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology. She has excavated in Greece and Egypt, and has taught Egyptology courses at the University of Pennsylvania and Harvard University. Her wide-ranging interests include various aspects of the art, archaeology and civilizations of ancient Nubia and Egypt.
Denise is the author of MFA Highlights: Arts of Ancient Nubia and the co-author of Jewels of Ancient Nubia as well as numerous articles on various aspects of Egyptian and Nubian art, archaeology and civilization. At the MFA, she was the co-curator of The Secrets of Tomb 10A: Egypt 2000 BC and Gold and the Gods: Jewels of Ancient Nubia. Denise currently serves on the board of International Council of Museum’s International Committee for Egyptology and is president of the New England Chapter of the American Research Center in Egypt.
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NYC Jewelry Week (NYCJW) is dedicated to promoting and celebrating the world of jewelry through educational and innovative focused programming. Last year’s inaugural NYCJW welcomed over 10,000 attendees who explored the multifaceted jewelry industry. This year’s event, happening November 18-24, will include groundbreaking exhibitions, panel discussions led by industry experts, exclusive workshops, heritage-house tours, innovative retail collaborations and other one-of-a-kind programs created by founders Bella Neyman and JB Jones.
Bella Neyman is an independent curator and journalist specializing in contemporary jewelry. She, along with Ruta Reifen, started Platforma, a contemporary jewelry-focused initiative whose exhibitions have been on view in the United States and Europe. Bella’s articles have been published in The New York Times, American Craft and Antique magazine, and she is a frequent contributor to MODERN Magazine and Metalsmith magazines. Bella also serves on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum.
JB Jones co-curated the first street art x art jewelry exhibition, PLACEMENT, with Bella Neyman. The duo launched a digital contemporary jewelry platform of the same name designed to promote the concept of “wearing your art.” Her work has appeared in Harper’s Bazaar, Women’s Wear Daily, Juxtapoz, Obey, and Work magazines and more.
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Shirley Mueller is an internationally known collector and scholar of Chinese export porcelain who has written numerous articles on the subject. She has a background in neuroscience and examines different behavioral traits that characterize collectors.
In her recent book, Inside the Head of a Collector: Neuropsychological Forces at Play, Shirley introduces neuro and behavioral economics for collectors and art professionals to help them understand their own decision making. She also brings a unique collector’s perspective by providing insights for art dealers, collectors and museum professionals.
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Elyse Zorn Karlin is the co-director of the Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts (ASJRA) and publisher of Adornment, a magazine of jewelry and related arts. She also runs the Annual Conference on Jewelry & Related Arts in various locations throughout the U.S. and spearheads the annual Jewelry History Series in Miami, FL, which runs concurrently with The Original Miami Beach Antique Show.
Elyse has authored several books on Arts and Crafts jewelry and antique jewelry, including “Jewelry and Metalwork in the Arts and Crafts Tradition.” Her most recent curatorial efforts include “Maker & Muse: Women and 20th Century Art Jewelry” at the Richard H. Driehaus Museum, Chicago, now traveling to a number of venues; an upcoming exhibition “Out of this World! Jewelry in the Space Age” which opens at the Tellus Science Museum in Cartersville, GA in November 2020.
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Lisa Berman* is an internationally recognized “Ambassador of Wearable Art.” Based in Southern California, her expertise extends to major manufacturing and retail markets, museums and corporations in the United States, Canada, Mexico, Asia and Europe.
Lisa is the owner of the iconic gallery Sculpture to Wear, which was instrumental in launching the studio jewelry movement in the United States. The gallery offers an eclectic array of art, jewelry and unique objects to discerning collectors, media producers and institutions, which have been featured in film, television and publications.
Her recently launched Berman Arts Agency offers artist representation, career management, corporate acquisition, sponsorship advisement, museum placement, exhibition curation and education services on the disciplines of fine art, jewelry, design and fashion.
Lisa holds degrees in Plastics Manufacturing Technology from California State University Long Beach, Product & Jewelry Design from Otis College of Art & Design and Merchandising/Marketing from Fashion Institute of Design and Merchandising (FIDM). She has served on the Board of Governors for OTIS College of Art & Design; as Public Relations Chair for the Textile and Costume Council at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art (LACMA); and on the Museum Collection Board at FIDM. She volunteers for Free Arts for Abused Children, STEAM projects and Art & Fashion Councils.
*No relation to host Sharon Berman
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Jo Ellen Cole has been involved in the jewelry business for more than four decades. She earned her Graduate Gemologist Diploma (In Residence) at the Gemological Institute of America in Santa Monica and successfully passed the prestigious Gemological Association of Great Britain’s F.G.A. examinations.
After working for several years in both retail and wholesale jewelry venues, Jo Ellen accepted a job at a jewelry appraisal laboratory, which in turn led to a management position with the respected firm of Guild Laboratories, Inc. in Los Angeles. She also held a position as research librarian at the Gemological Institute of America (GIA) and was later appointed Curator of the Permanent Stone Collection at GIA.
In March 2002, Cole Appraisal Services was born and began offering a variety of appraisal reports identification reports, and museum and display consultation services. After working as the Jewelry Department head at a regional auction gallery in Oakland, CA, she was recruited for a position with Heritage Auctions to serve as jewelry specialist and cataloger, gathering jewelry for auctions held in Beverly Hills, Dallas and New York City. At this time, Jo Ellen is offering independent gem and jewelry appraisals and consultation in Los Angeles and surrounding areas.
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Beth Carver Wees is the Ruth Bigelow Wriston Curator of American Decorative Arts at The Metropolitan Museum of Art, where she oversees the collections of American silver, jewelry and other metalwork. She is currently the curator of the exhibit “Jewelry for America,” which runs until April 5, 2020. Spanning 300 years, “Jewelry for America” explores the evolution of jewelry in the U.S. from the early 18th century to present day.
Prior to joining The Met staff in 2000, Beth was Curator of Decorative Arts at the Clark Art Institute in Williamstown, MA. She holds degrees in Art History from Smith College and the Williams College Graduate Program in the History of Art. An enthusiast for Britain’s historic houses, Beth is an alumna of the Attingham Summer School and the Royal Collection Studies, and sits on the board of the American Friends of Attingham as Secretary. She lectures internationally and is the author of numerous articles and books, including English, Irish & Scottish Silver at the Sterling and Francine Clark Art Institute (1997) and Early American Silver in The Metropolitan Museum of Art (2013).
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Benjamin Macklowe joined Macklowe Gallery in 1994 and became its president in 2012. Under Ben’s leadership, Macklowe Gallery has become the world’s most respected dealer of antique and estate jewelry, French Art Nouveau decorative arts and the entire oeuvre of Louis Comfort Tiffany.
Ben is a sought-after expert in his field and has served as a lecturer for museum groups and scholarly organizations throughout the United States. Ben has appeared on television to discuss Tiffany lamps with Martha Stewart, lectured on the art glass of Emile Gallé at Taft Museum of Art and has taught about Art Nouveau jewelry at Christie’s Auction House on multiple occasions. He helped expand the collections of The Metropolitan Museum of Art, Dallas Museum of Art and Virginia Museum of Fine Arts, selling important decorative works of art to each.
In recent years, Ben has sought to shed light on areas of collecting that have never been fully explored, spearheading the publication of two books: Dynamic Beauty: Sculpture of Art Nouveau Paris and Nature Transformed: Art Nouveau Horn Jewelry.
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Erik Yang is the founder of The Lush Life Antiques, which offers a selection of vintage designer jewelry, both signed and unsigned. His primary focus is on American and European costumes, Mexican silver, Native American Indian, Bakelite, modernist and contemporary designer jewelry. Each piece is carefully hand-selected for its design, quality, and construction. In his 25 years as a jewelry dealer, Erik has segued from exhibiting at shows to selling exclusively online.
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A longtime collector of all things vintage, Richard Wainwright founded A Current Affair, a pop-up marketplace where more than 70 top vintage retailers and private dealers present relevant and trend-driven collections. A Current Affair takes place seasonally in Los Angeles, Brooklyn and the San Francisco Bay Area. Additionally, Richard founded and produces the sister event, Pickwick Vintage Show in Burbank, California.
In 2018, Richard opened his first permanent retail shop, ARCADE, a vintage store in Brooklyn featuring collections from a rotating mix of 15 vintage sellers from across the United States. He also runs a vintage showroom in Los Angeles, NEW/FOUND, which caters to the design community and retail customers alike.
Richard holds an A.A. in Fashion Marketing and Merchandising from Fashion Institute of Technology, and a B.A. in History of Art from the University of California, Berkeley.
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Senior Marketing Executive Vivianne Leung and Creative Copywriter Natasha Hosseini are representatives for JewelStreet, one of the fastest growing online jewelry marketplaces based in the United Kingdom. With a community of over 200 independent jewelry designers from around the world, and by specializing in only the finest handmade and bespoke jewelry, JewelStreet is revolutionizing the retail industry. After hand-picking emerging names, JewelStreet provides an online platform for these talented designers and artisans to thrive and reach new audiences.
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Jennifer Merchant is a studio jewelry artist and sculptor based in Minneapolis. She is best known for her innovative, layered acrylic process in which she layers images and prints between solid acrylic. Her work is graphic with clean lines and an ultra-modern aesthetic. Pieces confound viewers by appearing transparent from one angle of view and showcasing bold patterns and colors from another.
Jennifer graduated with a BFA in Metals and Jewelry from Savannah College of Art and Design. She is a full-time maker exhibiting her work across the country at galleries, museums and art fairs. Her work has also been published in several national magazines, such as American Craft, Ornament and Delta Sky Magazine.
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Matthew Thurlow is the Executive Director of The Decorative Arts Trust, a non-profit national membership organization that promotes and fosters the appreciation and study of the decorative arts through domestic and international programming, collaborations and partnerships with museums and preservation organizations, and underwriting internships, research grants and scholarships for graduate students and young professionals.
Prior to heading The Trust, Matthew served as Assistant Director of Development for Major Gifts and Planned Giving at Winterthur Museum; and was the Research Associate and Installations Coordinator in the American Wing at The Metropolitan Museum of Art. He holds graduate degrees from the University of Delaware’s Winterthur Program in Early American Culture and the College of William and Mary in Archaeology.
Matthew lectures on topics relating to late 18th and early 19th century furniture, and has published articles in American Furniture, The Magazine Antiques and Antiques & Fine Arts. He was a co-author of the The Met’s exhibition catalog Duncan Phyfe: Master Cabinetmaker in New York.
He serves on a number of advisory committees in the field, including the Colonial Williamsburg Art Museums Board, the Charleston Heritage Symposium, the New Orleans Antiques Forum and is chairman of the Classical Institute of the South, a New Orleans-based foundation conducting Museum of Early Southern Decorative Arts-inspired fieldwork in the Gulf South.
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Edward A. Lewand, GG, ASA, AAA, is a professional, independent appraiser of fine and antique jewelry. He works with attorneys on estates, trusts, insurance matters and copyright issues; appraisal theories and concepts; and matrimonial appraising. Edward also works with international accounting firms such as KPMG and PWC with banks for inventory review, as well as appraisals for the sale of major companies. Additionally, he is retained as a business consultant by jewelry companies.
Edward earned a Graduate Gemologist degree from the Gemological Institute of America and is a Certified Member of the Appraisers Association of America as well as a Senior Accredited Member in Gems and Jewelry from the American Society of Appraisers.
Edward is the Co-Director of the Antique Jewelry & Art Conference (Jewelry Camp™), an international educational conference for the beginner to the advanced in antique, estate and modern jewelry, which is now in its 41st year.
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Ted Irwin is an independent appraiser of fine jewelry and gemstones, and director of the Northwest Gemological Institute and Northwest Gemological Laboratory. He provides detailed documentation on contemporary to antique fine jewelry, watches, pearls and gemstones for insurance, estate or other legal purposes. Ted is also the director of the Northwest Jewelry Conference which provides hands-on estate jewelry education. The conference is now in its seventh year and will take place August 9-11, 2019 in Bellevue, Washington.
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How to Contact Rebecca Moskal:
Rebecca Moskal has more than 15 years of experience in luxury and jewelry marketing. She is the founder of Communiqué, a public relations and marketing firm specializing in working with jewelry designers to help them find their point of differentiation and get noticed.
Starting her career at a notable advertising agency in New York, Rebecca honed her skills for developing strategic media campaigns for global brands. A yearning for a more diverse experience led her to begin her client-side career, which would eventually include Bulgari, David Yurman, Van Cleef & Arpels and Beaudry. She brings her knowledge and expertise assisting brands to realize their potential via brand strategy development and public relations.
Rebecca has been a member of the Women’s Jewelry Association for more than a decade, and currently serves as the International Board’s Events Chair, Vice President of the Los Angeles chapter. She is also the recipient of the 2015 Award for Excellence in Marketing and Communications.
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Donna Schneier, owner of Donna Schneier Fine Arts, is a private dealer exhibiting at several major art fairs, including Sculpture Objects Functional Art and Design (SOFA) and Art Palm Beach. She has donated more than 130 works to The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York. A selection of those pieces was presented in The Met’s book, Unique by Design: Contemporary Jewelry in the Donna Schneier Collection, to accompany a six-month exhibition. Other pieces have been featured in The Met’s “Jewelry: The Body Transformed” and “Masterpieces” exhibitions.
Donna has continually donated work to the Museum of Arts and Design (MAD), NYC, and other museums in the United States and Europe to spread the story of contemporary art jewelry. Her collections include works of art jewelry from the late 1960s to the present.
She is also one of the founders and creators of “LOOT: Mad About Jewelry,” an annual benefit exhibition and sale for Museum of Arts and Design, featuring designs from more than 50 emerging and acclaimed international jewelry artists, and “BIJOUX!,” a daring art-jewelry sale that raises money for Norton Museum of Art in West Palm Beach, Florida.
In 2000, Donna was recruited by Neue Pinakothek, Munich—the only museum to devote an entire floor to contemporary art jewelry—to locate American masters of contemporary jewelry. She was able to identify and purchase for the museum masterpieces by Alexander Calder, Margaret De Patta, and Robert Ebendorf, among others.
Donna is a frequent lecturer, has appeared on shows such as Antiques Roadshow and the TODAY show, and has been featured in Forbes, New York Times, Antiques and Auction Magazine and more.
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Barbara Schwartz is a vintage jewelry costume expert and the founder of TruFaux Jewels, an online boutique of exquisite costume jewelry made in Europe and North America from the 1920s-1950s. With an eye for high-quality and unusual pieces, Barbara helps women select vintage costume jewelry that expresses their personal styles and makes a statement.
A sought-after speaker, Barbara has lectured on fashion and jewelry history at numerous conferences, including the Jewelry History Series. Her articles have been published in Adornment and The VFG News, as well as online by Costume Jewelry Collectors International, Kovels and Vintage Dancer. In addition to posts on jewelry history, her blog features tips for complementing modern fashion with vintage glamour.
Barbara is a member of the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts, American Society of Jewelry Historians, and Vintage Fashion Guild (VFG).
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Amanda Triossi F.G.A. is a jewelry historian, author, curator, lecturer on the history of Western jewelry design and consultant to luxury goods companies. She was born and educated in Rome, Italy, and obtained a History of Art degree at Cambridge University.
In 1992 at Sotheby’s Institute of Art in London, Amanda initiated a unique course, “Understanding Jewellery with Amanda Triossi,” the first intensive course on the history of Western jewelry. From 1997 to 2015, she was a consultant for Bulgari, heading the project of the Corporate Historical Archives and Heritage Collection. From 2009 to 2013, she curated five major exhibitions on Bulgari worldwide. She has published extensively on the history of jewelry and on Bulgari.
Today, Amanda writes, vets Bulgari jewels, gives lectures and seminars, curates jewelry-centric trips internationally, and consults for major luxury brands and private collectors.
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Barbara Lo Bianco is the founder and owner of BABS (Beyond Art Before Sculpture ) Art Gallery, a gallery engaged with contemporary artists to create unique pieces of jewelry. As a lover of both contemporary art and jewels, Barbara works with artists to discover new ways to express their talent and message. An entrepreneur at heart, Barbara also owns several real estate businesses and fitness centers in Milan. She often organizes exhibitions at the fitness centers to support young artists and provide an opportunity to showcase their work as well as allow people to see art in a different setting than a gallery.
Barbara began her career as a lawyer, obtaining a Master’s degree in American and International Law from Southwestern Legal Foundation and studying law at the University of Palermo. She went on to obtain an MBA from SDA Bocconi School of Management which launched her profession in the art world.
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Lisa Koenigsberg is the Founder and Conference Director of Initiatives in Art and Culture (IAC) which aims to educate diverse audiences in the fine, decorative and visual arts. Lisa has organized conferences, symposia and special sessions at universities, museums and professional organizations throughout the U.S. and abroad which explore fashion, materials and process. Her writings have appeared in books, journals, magazines and in Trendvision’s Trendbook 2018.
Lisa previously served as Advisor to the Dean for Arts Initiatives; Director, Programs in the Arts; and adjunct professor of arts, NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies. Additional positions include: Assistant Director for Project Funding, Museum of the City of New York; Executive Assistant, Office of the President, American Museum of Natural History; architectural historian, New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission; and guest curator, Worcester Art Museum and Yale University Art Gallery.
She holds graduate degrees from The Johns Hopkins University, and from Yale University where she received her Ph.D.
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Heidi Lowe is the founder and owner of Heidi Lowe Gallery, a contemporary art jewelry gallery that hosts six exhibitions each year by internationally recognized artists and also serves as a teaching space. Heidi creates jewelry drawing from nature and the history of metalsmithing. She displays her work within her gallery as well as at other galleries across the United States. Heidi’s next show, “Amend,” is set to open June 14, 2019 at Rehoboth Art League.
Prior to opening her own gallery, Heidi was the assistant director at Leo Koenig Gallery, a contemporary art gallery in Chelsea, New York. She received her BFA in Metals and Jewelry from Maine College of Art in Portland, Maine and her MFA at State University of New York at New Paltz.
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Lisa Kramer is the founder and owner of Lisa Kramer Vintage, which offers antique and vintage jewelry selected with an eye toward design and history informed by her former career as an architect and her undergraduate degree in anthropology. Along with extensive research, Lisa studies how a piece of jewelry has been constructed in much the same way that she looks at the details of how buildings are constructed.
For nearly 20 years, Lisa has been selling antique and vintage jewelry at shows throughout the San Francisco Bay Area, and in recent years she has expanded her reach to shows in Southern California and the East Coast.
Lisa is a member of the Association for the Study of Jewelry and Related Arts (ASJRA), the Society of Jewelry Historians in the United States and the United Kingdom, the Art Deco Society of California and the Women’s Jewelry Association. Lisa has completed the Accredited Jewelry Professional program of the Gemological Institute of America. She has a blog, Lisa Kramer Vintage, which she uses as a forum for writing about jewelry history, travel with a focus on antiquing, and design.
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Bella Neyman is an independent curator and journalist specializing in contemporary jewelry. Since graduating with a Master’s Degree in Decorative Arts and Design History from the Cooper Hewitt, Smithsonian Design Museum & Parsons The New School for Design in 2008, she has worked for some of New York City’s leading design galleries. Her most ambitious project to date was the launch of New York City Jewelry Week. For three years prior to this, she was the Director of New York’s only contemporary jewelry gallery. In 2014, Bella, along with Ruta Reifen, Bella started Platforma, a contemporary jewelry-focused initiative whose exhibitions have been on view in the U.S. and Europe. Bella’s articles have been published in The New York Times, American Craft and Antique magazine and she is a frequent contributor to Modern and Metalsmith magazines. Bella also serves on the Board of Art Jewelry Forum.
JB Jones, co-founder of NYC Jewelry Week, began her career as a Design Director and Fashion Editor in Los Angeles. In 2008, JB switched gears and launched The Site Unscene, a street art gallery and artists’ platform. She curated the first West Coast exhibition of the NYC based graffiti crew TC-5, which included the work of Doze Green and Lady Pink, and was a leader in helping establish street art as a legitimate force in the LA gallery scene. Upon moving to NYC in 2014, JB returned to fashion in a retail development capacity with a focus on jewelry. She co-curated the first street art x art jewelry exhibition, PLACEMENT, with Bella Neyman. In 2017, the duo launched a digital contemporary jewelry platform of the same name designed to promote the concept of “wearing your art.” Her work has appeared in Harper’s Bazaar, WWD, Juxtapoz, Obey, Work magazine and more.
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Irija Øwre is the Gallery Director at Galleri Format Oslo. She is responsible for the exhibition program, finances and personnel, as well as development of sales and presentation strategies.
Founded in 1991, Galleri Format Oslo is the leading gallery for contemporary crafts and design in Norway. The gallery is an exhibition and sales venue of the finest artistic quality within ceramic, textile, metal, jewelry and glass. The gallery aims to strengthen the position of Norwegian contemporary craft and design internationally. Through working with both established and emerging artists, the gallery reflects the various tendencies in contemporary craft and design today. The gallery’s goal is to challenge established norms while highlighting key values in the field by actively bringing a wider spectrum of artistic practices to the fore.
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Charon Kransen is an internationally known lecturer and gallerist representing studio jewelers from around the world. He established Charon Kransen Arts in New York City in 1993, and the gallery’s collection consists of jewelry, hollowware and accessories by both renowned and emerging artists. The work is presented annually at various American art fairs, such as Sculpture Objects Functional Art and Design (SOFA), Art Palm Beach and the Int. Art and Design Fair in New York, and at select galleries specializing in contemporary crafts and design.
Educated as a jewelry artist in Holland, Germany, Israel and Norway, Charon has taught and lectured extensively worldwide. The educational branch of Charon Kransen Arts also includes the distribution of books and exhibition catalogs on all aspects of jewelry, metal and design.
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Anna Johnson is a jewelry artist based in Asheville, North Carolina. Her compositions consist largely of found objects mixed with semi-precious and precious materials. Anna’s work is heavily influenced by nature, cultural ideas of value, and environmental preservation.
Anna’s work is exhibited internationally and has received several recognitions, including being named as “30 Exceptional Craftspeople Under the Age of 30” (2016) by American Craft Week, and by American Craft Magazine as one of 15 exceptional artists using unusual materials (2015). Additionally, her work has been featured in numerous publications, including Cast: Art and Objects (2017). She has taught at Penland School of Crafts, Arrowmont School of Arts and Crafts and Haywood Community College.
Anna received her BFA in Metalsmithing and Jewelry Design from Appalachian State University in Boone, North Carolina.
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Dr. Emily Stoehrer is the Rita J. Kaplan and Susan B. Kaplan Curator of Jewelry at the Museum of Fine Arts (MFA), Boston, where she oversees a collection that spans 6,000 years and includes more than 22,000 objects. Over the last decade, Emily has curated numerous exhibitions at MFA Boston, lectured internationally on jewelry-related subjects, and taught courses on fashion and design.
Most recently, Emily co-curated “Boston Made: Arts and Crafts Jewelry and Metalwork” and co-authored the related publication Arts and Crafts Jewelry in Boston: Frank Gardner Hale and His Circle. She was also a contributor to Maker as Muse: Women and Early Twentieth Century Art Jewelry and On and Off: Jewelry in the Wider Cultural Field.
Emily is a member of the board of directors for the Society of North American Goldsmiths and is currently writing a book on jewelry and celebrity culture. She has a Ph.D. in Humanities from Salve Regina University and a master’s degree in Fashion & Textile Studies from Fashion Institute of Technology.
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Marie Betteley is a leading authority on Russian jewels and Imperial Russian decorative arts, and the President of Marie E. Betteley, Inc., an online shop where customers find exquisitely crafted jewels and treasures from the most fascinating places in the world.
Beginning her career at the New York branch of Christie’s auction house, Marie quickly moved up in the company working in the Russian department. After 10 years, Marie opened her own gallery in New York and started trading in Fabergé and jewels.
She regularly consults for auction houses, museums and private collectors globally, and is a respected private dealer, professional speaker, tour guide and author of Beyond Fabergé, Russian Imperial Jewelers.
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Karen Lorene launched her retail career as an antique seller in 1972. Twelve years later, she opened FacèréJewelry Art Gallery in downtown Seattle, which showcases up-and-coming designers with a focus on art jewelry.
Karen is also a novelist and has written several books on jewelry and small business best practices. She produces an annual journal, Signs of Life, for Facèré which combines jewelry design and contemporary literature.
Facèré has a new home in 2019! Find them in Seattle at 550 NE Northgate Way and Bellevue at 25 Bellevue Way NE. You are invited for their Reopening Reception on Wednesday, February 6, 2019 at the Bellevue location.
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Beth Carver Wees is the Ruth Bigelow Wriston Curator of American Decorative Arts at The Metropolitan Museum of Art, where she oversees the collections of American silver, jewelry and other metalwork. She is one of six organizing curators for The Met’s current exhibition, Jewelry: The Body Transformed (through February 24, 2019), as well as a contributor to the accompanying catalog. In addition, she is preparing a special installation of The Met’s American jewelry, which will be on display from June 2019 through January 2020.
Prior to joining The Met’s staff in 2000, Beth was Curator of Decorative Arts at the Clark Art Institute in Williamstown, MA. She holds degrees in art history from Smith College and the Williams College Graduate Program in the History of Art. An enthusiast for Britain’s historic houses, Beth is an alumna of the Attingham Summer School and the Royal Collection Studies, and sits on the board of the American Friends of Attingham as Secretary. She lectures internationally and is the author of numerous articles and books, including English, Irish & Scottish Silver at the Sterling and Francine Clark Art Institute (1997) and Early American Silver in The Metropolitan Museum of Art (2013).
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Anne Cathrine Wolsgaard Iversen is the curator and museum keeper at DesignmMuseum Danmark in Copenhagen. She is an expert on art, architecture, and arts and crafts from the period 1880-1920, which includes Art Nouveau and Art Deco. Prior to Designmuseum Danmark, Anne Cathrine was a curator at Danish museums Ny Carlsberg Glyptotek and Ordrupgaard.
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With work in the retail, auction and manufacturing sectors of the jewelry industry since 1989, Gina D’Onofrio’s experience encompasses jewelry design and production, appraisals, buying and selling of contemporary, antique and period jewelry, sales and management.
Prior to joining Heritage Auctions, Gina operated an independent gemological laboratory, appraisal service and consulting firm, and has catered to private individuals, banks, trusts, non-profit organizations, insurance companies, legal firms and the jewelry trade in the greater Los Angeles area.
Gina received her Master Gemologist Appraiser® designation with the American Society of Appraisers. In addition, she was awarded the Certified Master Appraiser designation with the National Association of Jewelry Appraisers. In 2013, Gina received Los Angeles Magazine’s coveted “Best in LA” award for her jewelry appraisal services.
She conducts presentations and speeches about appraisal and jewelry related topics to private and corporate groups in the Los Angeles area. Gina served as Gems and Jewelry Education Chair for the American Society of Appraisers and is co-instructor for their Appraisal Report Writing for Insurance Coverage course.
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Elyse Zorn Karlin is the Publisher and Editor-in-Chief of Adornment, The Magazine of Jewelry and Related Arts. She is co-director of the Association for the Study of Jewelry & Related Arts (ASJRA) and a former president of The American Society of Jewelry Historians (ASJH). Elyse runs the Annual Conference on Jewelry & Related Arts in various locations throughout the U.S. and spearheads the Annual Jewelry History Series in Miami, Florida every winter. She has written several books on Arts & Crafts jewelry and antique jewelry.
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Patti Bleicher is the co-founder of Gallery Loupe, a gallery for contemporary art jewelry that represents the work of innovative contemporary studio artists. Patti and business partner Eileen David opened Gallery Loupe in 2006. The gallery focuses on established and emerging artists from the U.S. and abroad, and offers the opportunity to see and experience the most experimental and provocative jewelry being created today.
Gallery Loupe presents an expansive view of what jewelry can be through the use of non-traditional materials and challenging approaches. The gallery’s program of exhibitions and artist conversations offers the chance to explore and understand this important art form.
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Ulysses Grant Dietz is Chief Curator Emeritus at the Newark Museum. He previously served as the museum’s curator of Decorative Arts since 1980 and the Chief Curator since 2012. He has been instrumental in expanding and showcasing the museum’s jewelry collection. He has been the curator of more than 100 exhibitions covering all aspects of the decorative arts from colonial to contemporary.
Mr. Dietz has also published numerous articles on decorative arts, drawn from the Newark Museum’s nationally-known collections of art pottery, studio ceramics, silver, jewelry and nineteenth-century furniture. His most recent publication is Jewelry: From Pearls to Platinum to Plastic, published in January 2017 by the Newark Museum through the University Press of Florida. Previous publications include Masterpieces of Art Pottery, 1880-1930, from the Newark Museum in 2009, and Dream House: The White House as an American Home, released in September 2009 by Acanthus Press in New York.
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Ted Irwin is an independent appraiser of fine jewelry and gemstones, and director of the Northwest Gemological Institute and Northwest Gemological Lab. He provides documentation on contemporary to antique fine jewelry, watches, pearls and gemstones for insurance, estate or other legal purposes. Ted is also the director of the Northwest Jewelry Conference which provides hands-on estate jewelry education.
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Jan Krulick-Belin is an art consultant, museum curator and an art and jewelry historian with more than 40 years of experience at institutions, including the Corcoran Gallery of Art, Denver Art Museum, Beaumont (Texas) Art Museum and Smithsonian Institution. Retired as director of education at the Phoenix Art Museum, she continues to work with museums, arts organizations and private collectors, in addition to serving as guest curator at the Sylvia Plotkin Judaica Museum in Phoenix.
Jan is the author of the award-winning book, "Love, Bill: Finding My Father through Letters from World War II." She lectures widely on a variety of art and jewelry topics, including talks about her book and on writing a memoir. Jan holds a Bachelor’s degree in Art History from the State University of New York, Binghamton and a Master’s degree in Museum Education from George Washington University.
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Jonathan Wahl is an artist and jeweler whose art ranges from drawing and sculpture to jewelry and the decorative arts. His work is exhibited both nationally and internationally, and is part of the permanent collections of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Houston Museum of Fine Arts and the Museum of Arts and Design in New York City. He has been featured or reviewed in publications as diverse as The New York Times, Art in America, The New Yorker, Architectural Digest, Oprah Magazine, W Jewelry, Philadelphia Inquirer, Metalsmith Magazine, Harper’s Bazaar and Advocate, among others.
Jonathan has been awarded the Louis Comfort Tiffany Emerging Artist Fellowship from the Louis Comfort Tiffany Foundation, two New York Foundation for the Arts Fellowships and the Pennsylvania Society of Goldsmiths Award for "Outstanding Achievement." In 2006, he was named one of the “Top 10 Jewelers to Watch” by W Jewelry.
He has served as the Director of the Jewelry Center at the 92nd Street Y since 1999 and has guided the Center’s growth to become the largest program of its kind in the nation and the oldest open studio in NYC.
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Edward A. Lewand, GG, ASA, AAA, is a professional, independent appraiser of fine and antique jewelry. He works with attorneys on estates, trusts, insurance matters and copyright issues; appraisal theories and concepts; and matrimonial appraising. Edward also works with international accounting firms such as KPMG, LLC. and PWC, along with banks for inventory review as well as appraisals for the sale of major companies. Additionally, he is retained as a business consultant for jewelry companies.
Edward earned a Graduate Gemologist degree from the Gemological Institute of America and is a Certified Member of the Appraisers Association of America as well as a Senior Accredited Member in Gems and Jewelry from the American Society of Appraisers.
Edward is the co-director of the Antique Jewelry & Art Conference (Jewelry Camp™), an international educational conference for the beginner to the advanced in antique, estate and modern jewelry, which is now in its 40th year. Edward also developed a class titled the “Art of Appraising Jewelry” at the NYU School of Continuing and Professional Studies.
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