Interlude: Podcasting as Educational Tool

Schuyler Whelden: I’m Schuyler Whelden.

Juliana Cantarelli Vita: And I’m Juliana Cantarelli Vita.

SW: This is Massa, a podcast about Brazilian music and culture.

JCV: Schuyler and I are musicians and music scholars. In each episode, we dive into a specific genre, song, artist, or issue in Brazilian music to try to understand how it works and what it means.

SW: In this episode, we are diving into a podcast to see how it works.

JCV: Which one?

SW: This one!

JCV: Oh, right! Well, we haven’t released an episode in a while, but that’s not because we aren’t working. In fact, we’ve never worked harder! We’ve been researching, interviewing, and recording episodes all this time.

SW: As we’ve worked, we’ve received quite a few comments and queries from you all, our listenership.

JCV: Thank you so much to everyone who has reached out to us. Your feedback is invaluable. I can’t believe how far this little podcast has reached. 

SW: That’s not to say we’re done with feedback! 

JCV: We’d love to hear from you if you have other thoughts, questions, or ideas. Email us at [email protected].

SW: In addition to all of your incredible messages, we’ve also taken the podcast on the road, so to speak.

JCV: Yes! We wanted to get some feedback from colleagues and collaborators, so we’ve presented at a number of academic conferences.

SW: We’ve shared some of our content and even led a few workshops on our processes.

JCV: You might think of these presentations as a kind of “peer review” process for our work on the podcast.

SW: In academic publishing, we are used to sending our work to editors of journals and presses to be blind reviewed by other music educators, ethnomusicologists, and the like. But since we are self-producing and self-publishing here, we decided to solicit feedback from our colleagues in presentation form at academic meetings.

JCV: We thought we might share a couple of those presentations with you all.

SW: Indeed! This episode and the following episode are both, shall we say, “interludes.”

JCV: Yes, that’s what I suggested we call them.

SW: It is a great suggestion!

JCV: Each of these interludes is a podcast-friendly version of one or more conference presentations.

SW: In addition to giving you all a “peek behind the scenes,” we thought they also could serve as a little tide-me-over until our second season launches later this year.

JCV: We hope you enjoy them!

Podcasts and Education

SW: Working on Massa has inspired a lot of reflection about the possibilities and limitations of using podcasts for educational purposes.

JCV: Podcasts appear to be an ideal medium for learning about music. They are audio-based, which helps re-orient students and instructors away from visual metaphors and aids. 

SW: In addition to their utility in remote learning, they can substitute for or supplement readings in formal classroom environments. 

JCV: And due to the numerous distribution structures for podcasts, they are also easily disseminated to publics outside of institutions of higher learning, making them available to people other than our students.

SW: But, as you and I have discovered, using podcasts as an educational tool comes with a host of challenges. First, they can reproduce and reinforce dominant power structures in the topics they approach and in ways they teach listeners to listen (McDaniel and Achondo 2020; McDaniel, 2022). 

JCV: And though their wide distribution networks seemingly contribute to the Internet’s long-promised democratization of education, they are subject to the same access issues as all resources: social class, geography, language, racial and ethnic background, and other factors.

SW: So our challenge was and is to create a tool that is useful to educators and learners, something that helps to investigate musical cultures and describe sounds and practices without falling back on Eurocentric language and approaches to musical study.

JCV: Moreover, we hope to draw attention to and open spaces for voices and communities that are either underrepresented or impenetrable due to linguistic barriers and geographic distances. 

SW: That goal comes with the further challenge of examining our own positionality and privilege.

JCV: We’re guided by a number of questions: Who gets to study? What gets studied? Whose voices are included? How do we study this music?

SW: In this episode, we’ll discuss these challenges, the solutions we’ve found for them, and the work we still have ahead of us. Along the way, we’ll share some specific moments that illustrate this dynamic.

Who Gets to Study

JCV: The first question guiding us is “who gets to study.”

SW: Scholars have claimed that the Internet could and would serve as a democratizing force in education, offering individuals and communities access to materials they could otherwise not attain or afford (Acemoglu et al 2014).

JCV: Of course, in many cases, these materials still serve the same people who have access to traditional educational systems. Smaragda Chrysostomu (2017), for example, points out that 80% of the students in Massive open online courses, or MOOCs, come from the richest 6% of the population. And that only about 4% of students even complete the courses (221).

SW: On the other hand, Chrysostomu notes that students are more receptive to non-traditional educational tools if they are embedded in platforms they already use (222). And given the popularity of podcasts, there is some promise inherent in adopting this medium. 

JCV: Previous research into podcasting within educational contexts has found a number of specific advantages. These include meeting the needs of students with different learning styles (Alexander 2005), promoting flexibility in accessing learning materials (Chan and Lee 2005; Levy 2006), generating greater inclusivity (Cebeci and Tekdal 2006), and enhancing student engagement and reflection (Baird and Fisher 2006).

SW: So, while we remain skeptical that there could be a technological solution for a social problem, we are bolstered by the possibility that podcasts can present for learners.

JCV: Scholars have debated the importance of so-called public scholarship, that is, research made available outside the academy, both in terms of literal access and in terms of the language in which it is presented.

SW: We don't necessarily mean language like “English” and “Portuguese.”

JCV: Though that too.

SW: Indeed, but also in not using big words that have special meanings when small words that more people know will do.

JCV: Like, “applied ethnomusicology.”

SW: Exactly. The term “applied ethnomusicology” is kind of like “public scholarship” within the discipline of ethnomusicology.

JCV: Ethnomusicology being the study of music in/as culture.

SW: Oh yeah. That too. Well, “applied ethnomusicology,” according to the  ethnomusicologist Jeff Todd Titon (1992) is “Work whose immediate end is not research and the flow of knowledge inside intellectual communities but, action in the world outside of archives and universities” (315).

JCV: Which is pretty much what we’re trying to do here.

SW: Indeed. We are inspired by the incredible anthropologist and ethnomusicologist Anthony Seeger. He has argued that ethnomusicologists need “to reach out consciously to diverse audiences” as a way to “contribute through the knowledge we are privileged to have had the opportunity to learn” (Seeger, 2006, 222-223). 

JCV: In other words, why only share our work with the few people who subscribe to academic journals or are enrolled at the universities where we teach? 

SW: How can this podcast allow us to make our research and teaching materials available to more people, both in the language we use and how we distribute it?

JCV: We have a bit of anecdotal evidence that the listenership for Massa includes both university-affiliated people and those whose interest in Brazilian music stems from musical practice or listening tastes.

SW: (Yes, we are referring to your emails and dms.)

JCV: And folks in many disciplines, including ethnomusicology, history, music education, and Portuguese, have told us that they assign episodes of Massa to their students to accompany or replace readings.

SW: Some of you are musicians and industry professionals who have said that Massa is useful in deepening your understanding of the music you are playing.

JCV: The hosts of the podcast The Brazilian Beat, have spoken publicly about Massa:

 BRAZILIAN BEAT: “I feel like what they're doing is the perfect compliment to what we’re doing. Because they’re taking deep dives into the culture and talking about all of these things that you and I really—I mean, we’re not part of Brazilian culture, we just like it” (Danley and Ramirez 2021).

JCV: Members of the maracatu nation Nação do Maracatu Porto, who had been featured in a couple of episodes, offered an online weekend masterclass and participants were encouraged to listen to the episodes to familiarize themselves with sounds, with context, and with terminology.

SW: One other thing we are doing to help bolster the podcast's utility for teachers and learners—and to make it as accessible as possible—is to offer full transcripts of each episode. 

JCV: As you all surely know, the transcripts include links to both the songs that we reference as well as the scholarship and other materials that we draw on in our preparation. 

SW: Our new website is massapodcast.org btw. Essefoimassa still works too, if that’s more your speed.

JCV: This is actually an area we hope to grow. For example, citations are fairly easy in text, but it can be awkward to work full citations into the audio (Whelden 2023). 

SW: Got it. Haha. For now, we are leaving the citations in text of the transcriptions, but let us know if you have a better idea!

JCV: We also would like to offer Portuguese versions of the episodes in order to make this resource available to Portuguese speakers.

SW: Once we secure some funding, we are going to do that. Com certeza.

What gets studied?

JCV: The next question we’re trying to keep in mind as we produce Massa is “what gets

studied?”

SW: Pretty much every music of Latin America textbook has a Brazil chapter.

JCV: And many survey courses on so-called world music include a unit or at least a day on Brazilian music.

SW: Some of these offer the barest bones overview of samba and Bossa Nova, while others are more expansive.

JCV: But the challenge with textbooks is that the listening guides and contextual information is only updated every so often, meaning that certain Brazilian music examples end up “canonized” while others are completely left out. 

SW: One of the uses we see for Massa is as a “living audio textbook,” something for educators to draw on in lieu of or in addition to traditional educational materials.

JCV: But as it grows it serves more as a toolbox, rather than a tool in itself. We want it to offer multiple avenues into Brazilian culture, as well as multiple examples of the various ideas one may wish to study or teach.

SW: An example is forró, which is an important music tradition, which… well, why don’t I let us remind you:

JCV: But Schuyler, what is our focus in these episodes?

SW: Collectively these few episodes are about the genre called forró, which is an umbrella term for a number of northeastern dance rhythms that are traditionally played by an ensemble of accordion, triangle and the bass drum zabumba” (Cantarelli Vita and Whelden 2021b).

JCV: Rather than trying to cover everything in one episode, we made seven.

SW: We didn’t intend to make seven, but once we got into it, we wanted to create a few different tools.

JCV: Yes. Most textbooks that touch on forró introduce the composer Luiz Gonzaga and probably his song “Asa Branca.”

SW: We contextualize Gonzaga within a larger conversation about songs that deal with migration, in case folks want to see the broader context (in episode 13).

JCV: We do talk about “Asa Branca” though!

SW: And for instructors or practitioners who are interested in the musical minutia, we wanted to make episodes available that explain the difference between, for example, the dances baião that we just heard, and xaxado.

Audio: Marinês, “Rainha do Xaxado”

JCV: Regular listeners will have gone on an in-depth ride about forró, but instructors might assign just one episode. The additional episodes are there for extra study and research.

SW: And those teaching the same course year after year can swap in different episodes to keep things fresh.

JCV: Even more than making all of these tools, though, we have the flexibility to create new materials if a new forró form arises or if we want to deal with something topical.

SW: The question of what we cover is not always easy.

JCV: Despite what the previous example might imply, the answer is probably not “cover everything.”

SW: Not right away, at least. ;)

Whose voices are included?

JCV: Which leads us to the third question: “Whose voices are included?”

SW: Our experience producing episodes about the Afro-Brazilian religion Candomblé taught us a lot about the challenges of teaching about protected cultural forms in such a public space.

JCV: These are decisions we obviously have to make whenever we teach, but because a classroom is a bounded space, we have some control over the conversation that happens about these topics.

SW: With a podcast, it just goes out into the world and who knows?

JCV: So, we knew we had to include Candomblé in our earliest episodes not just because many elements of the music of Candomblé serve as the basis of Brazil's most enduring forms of popular music, but also because it is a vibrant living practice.

SW: But because neither of us are Candomblé practitioners ourselves, we knew that it would be irresponsible to speak about certain things and to speak for practitioners.

JCV: We elected to invite people with different relationships to Candomblé to lend their voices to our discussion, to clarify concepts, and discuss decisions they’ve made about musical practice.

SW: For example, we spoke with Mestra Joana Cavalcante about issues of gender in her group Baque Mulher in episode 6.

Audio: Mestra Joana

SW: and musician Zé Manoel about his choice to invoke Candomblé in his commercial recordings in episode 4.

Audio: Zé Manoel

JCV: We made these choices as part of an effort to respect the protected knowledge of Candomblé, but also to attempt to include voices other than ours within these materials, especially given that is not our positionality and/or experience.

SW: Because it is an audio medium, we are able to literally do that.

JCV: Though, as you heard, we offer English translations of what Portuguese speakers have said.

SW: If you are ever interested in the original Portuguese, we always include all of the original text in our transcripts.

JCV: Although there have been excellent examples of scholars collaborating with culture bearers (Jones and Lomax Hawes 1972; Samuel Araújo and the Members of the Grupo Musicultura 2006; Guilbault and Cape 2014), much scholarship still relegates the voices of practitioners to the background.

SW: One of the things we’ve learned is that our time with culture bearers is precious and it’s more respectful to ask people about their own music and experiences, rather than rely on them for background information that we can research ourselves.

JCV: Fortunately, though, there are many scholars who have lent their voices as well. And these folks can fill in those gaps and offer expertly researched context and theoretical frameworks.

SW: Shout out to folks like Chris Estrada, Amy Medvick, Julinho Mendes, Dan Sharp, and Loneka Battiste who have been willing to share their expertise with us.

JCV: (Expert listeners will recognize that some of those names are teasing the upcoming season.)

SW: Very clever.

JCV: We hope that hearing these voices will gesture toward the rich and varied network of academics doing work in Brazilian music studies. 

SW: And that, over time, we’ll be able to highlight many more scholars’ work.

How do we study this music?

JCV: One other question that guides us—and the last we’ll be discussing in this episode—is “How do we study this music?”

SW: Music podcasts are not passive forms of either entertainment or education. The way that hosts describe and discuss musical phenomena serves to entrain audiences to certain culturally specific listening practices (McDaniel and Achondo 2020; McDaniel, 2022).

JCV: In many cases, these listening practices are Eurocentric, reflecting the ongoing history of European colonialism. One example would be using European harmonic language in our explication of a given recording or genre.

SW: We had a long debate about whether to talk about chord progressions when making our episode on forró universitário. In the end, we decided to include the discussion, but not present the ideas as universal. Perhaps you remember that we contextualized them as part of a continuing colonization process:

“JCV: A chord progression is another way of talking about harmony, particularly in music from the European tradition. …

“SW: someone who’s an expert in 18th and 19th century European harmonic structures—would have to weigh in on how that works.

“JCV: Yeah, but regardless, it is culturally informed. Decades of listening to European derived harmonic structures play their part. And those structures were imposed in Brazil, just like other parts of Latin America and the U.S.” (Cantarelli Vita and Whelden 2021c).

JCV: Actually, this specific discussion precipitated the following reply from one listener: 

David Hulak: “I hadn’t realized/paid attention to the abandonment of the mixolydian mode in the melody and the incorporation of American popular harmonies … It seems to be a kind of colonization happening in a subtle, but powerful way. It reminds me of what Chomsky calls ‘soft power’” (Personal communication).

SW: That’s the kind of dialogue we live for as podcasters. Who knew that our ideas could give someone a new way of thinking about something they already care about?

JCV: Which is not to say that we feel that we’ve solved this problem. Both of us were trained in European-derived musical forms as children and that stuff is deep inside. There’s still more deconstructing and decolonizing to be done.

SW: Indeed. So much more. Another aspect of this question of “how do we study” is the idea of assigning audio texts to students in formal educational settings.

JCV: Yes, to teachers out there, it may seem obvious that students are more likely to listen to a podcast than read an article.

SW: But, in some ways, we’re actually trying to solve a different problem. I have known some students who do all the reading, but completely ignore the listening.

JCV: Not at your current institution, of course.

SW: Heavens, no! 

JCV: It might have to do with the fact that some students haven’t developed a listening practice. With a podcast episode, though, we embed the listening in the reading, so to speak.

SW: This is true for those of you who aren’t enrolled in a formal educational institution, but are just into learning about Brazilian music and culture, as well. I’m sure you’ve gone down a Wikipedia rabbit hole while listening to your Discovery Weekly. That kind of exploration can’t be beat, but if you are driving to work, I’d hate for you to be googling “ijexá” or “baião.”

JCV: Yes, please don’t google and drive.

SW: Also, we don’t expect you to read music. So if you are intimidated by those lines and dots in the middle of some article about some music thing, you won’t find any of that here.

JCV: We have mics and instruments, so we can demonstrate these ideas live. For example, when we talked about timelines, we performed the example and manipulated the audio of the song to help illustrate.

“JCV: How about we single out that bell pattern so it’s clearly audible?” (Cantarelli Vita and Whelden 2021a).

Audio: Xênia França, “Preta Yayá”

SW: In that example, I played a bell on top of the recording to make it clearer.

JCV: But all of this is very much a work in progress. The question of how to make this tool work for as many people as possible without relying on terms that replicate colonial systems—well, that’s something we’re all struggling with.

Conclusion

JCV: (Ok, so…) We’re aware that this entire endeavor is inextricable from the neoliberal capitalist system we live in. 

SW: Distributing this tool through platforms provided by Apple, Spotify, Google, and Amazon is not just ironic; it has tangible effects.

JCV: Yes. One of the primary counterarguments to the claim that the Internet can help democratize access to information is that not everyone has the Internet, let alone these specific platforms and the devices on which to use them. We do offer all of the episodes for free on our website, but podcasts, whether downloaded or streamed, take up significant bandwidth. Not everyone will be able to listen.

SW: So far we have paid for all of this out of pocket. We have no revenue or support, so we’re not beholden to any sponsors, corporate entities, or even the universities where we work.

JCV: We also compensate culture bearers by sending donations to them or their organizations.

SW: Eventually, we’ll probably need to find some way to make this financially sustainable, though. And we’re aware that any financial support we receive might come with restrictions or other agendas.

JCV: But that’s not to say that we aren’t open to the right benefactor.

SW: Hint, hint. So, what’s our primart point, then?

JCV: Well, we’ve identified a need for these kinds of tools, whether in university or other settings.

SW: Audio-based educational materials, at the very least, are good companions to articles and other resources, but in some cases offer advantages that written materials do not, such as demonstrations of musical phenomena and the actual voices of practitioners and other scholars.

JCV: Podcasts are also easy to distribute and, even if they aren’t equally accessible to everyone, they still tend to be cheaper than textbooks. Because our series is ever in production, it is flexible enough to respond to changes in the field or in the world.

SW: At the same time, podcasts are beholden to the same limitations as any other medium.

JCV: Seemingly, the only real way to mitigate the effects of unequal distribution and colonialist language, among other challenges, is to acknowledge and discuss them.

SW: In our case, we are focusing on Brazilian music because that's what we know, and we believe that it’s worth studying, but these questions that are guiding us as we produce Massa, will remain true for other topics as well.

JCV: Now, we just need to find a way to make it count for our jobs.

SW: Esse foi massa.

Audio: Sammy Bananas, “Transcontinental Baião (Carioca Remix)”

JCV: Massa is written, produced and edited by Schuyler Whelden and me, Juliana Cantarelli Vita. For episode transcripts and links to further reading, please visit our website, massapodcast.org. You can email us at [email protected]. That’s E-S-S-E-F-O-I-M-A-S-S-A @ gmail dot com. Follow us @essefoimassa on Instagram and Twitter. Our intro music is by Som da Massa and our outro music is by Sammy Bananas. Please join us for another “interlude” episode soon! Until then, esse foi Massa.

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