Power of Ten is a podcast hosted by Andy Polaine about design operating at many levels, zooming out from thoughtful detail through to organisational transformation and on to changes in society and the world.

My guest in this episode is Sheryl Cababa, author of Closing the Loop: Systems Thinking for Designers. Sheryl is a design researcher and strategist, and is the chief strategy officer at Substantial, a research insights and development studio based in Seattle. Her practice is focused on systems thinking and equity center design, and she’s worked with a diverse base of clients, including the Gates Foundation, Microsoft, Ikea, and Khan Academy.