Call Me By Your Name (Queer Auteur)

It was only a matter of time before we tackled Call Me By Your Name, one of the most influential, and subsequently controversial queer movies of the last decade.

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

JAZZA:  Hello, everybody. Before we kick off this episode, just wanted to quickly thank the two patrons who are supporting us on our highest tier rainbow parent, Jennifer and Toby, you continue to be rather awesome. I also wanted to give a little bit of a content warning for today's episode we touch on. Amongst other things, grooming pedophilia, sexual assault and fetishized cannibalism. So some of our conversations get pretty heavy. If that ain't your thing, feel free to skip this one and come back for the next episode in a couple of weeks. Okay, for the rest of you. Enjoy.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—

ROWAN:  —and worst—

JAZZA:  —in LGBTQ plus cinema. One glorious moment a time. I thought your tone was quite pointed there, Rowan.

ROWAN:  Listen not to spoil what I thought about this movie, but I'm Rowan Ellis. 

JAZZA:  And I'm Jazza John.

ROWAN:  And each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA:  This episode genre is—

ROWAN AND JAZZA: Queer.

JAZZA:  Today—

ROWAN:  That was Autuer for those who needed the translation.

JAZZA:  Which is French for author. You're welcome. Today we're going to be talking about one of the most renowned and somewhat infamous. We'll talk about it queer movies of the past 10 years. Call Me By Your Name.

ROWAN:  But before we fuck a peach, I guess. Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA:  So the gayest thing I've done is for once has nothing to do with my sex life.

ROWAN:  [shocked]

JAZZA:  I know. I have been playing the role for the past three weeks of the model, queer family member who has just been sitting in the middle of all of the arguments and telling everybody to be emotionally intelligent and love each other again, it is a stereotype that the queers step into I guess.

ROWAN:  Do the supporting role, the supporting character in the movie of like

JAZZA:  Of straight—of straight relatives. Yes, exactly.

ROWAN:  Amazing.

JAZZA:  And that was just very much my life for the past few weeks. I love my family. I love them sincerely.

ROWAN:  Yeah, keep—keep yeah, go—what's that you keep— keep saying it, and will believe. 

JAZZA:  I'm just letting the ellipses hang.

ROWAN:  That's it?

JAZZA:  Yeah. How about—how about you?

ROWAN:  Um, so I went on a little writing retreat, and I wrote for like, a week with some friends and I wrote so much of my gay that little, little book that I'm writing. It was very fun, and very gay. I haven't actually read over any of the stuff I've written yet, so it might be bad, but I'm gonna pretend like it's fine.

JAZZA:  I'm sure some of it is. And I'll tell you in a loving way, though.

ROWAN:  Yeah, I—I there's a reason why I haven't sent it to you yet. Well, so I also—it's like a sci-fi. So I feel like maybe I'll end up calling a character Jazza just for like the fun vibes, the Sci Fi vibes.

JAZZA:  Rowan, do you not know this? I—every one of our friends that has written a fiction book. I have done my utmost to make them name a character after me. So if our straight friends aren't going to name their children after me, then all of our queer friends are going to name one of the characters in their inevitable books after me. That's how I'm gonna become immortal.

ROWAN:  Yeah, and what I might do is you know, maybe try and disguise it by just changing like one letter or something. So maybe the character would just be called Jizzie.

JAZZA:  I knew— I knew you were so rude, so cliche. 

ROWAN:  Oh my gosh, but yeah, I'll definitely make it an extremely cool, cool character. And not some like lame old man.

JAZZA:  Great. Love that for us. For me—

[theme]

JAZZA:  As I mentioned before the break this film, though, celebrated has seen its fair share of controversies since its release. We are going to do our best before we dive into the plot to touch on them and provide—provide some well needed context, I think.

ROWAN:  We will then be reviewing the plot as always, splitting the film into three acts, of course we always do. If somehow you've managed to not see this movie since it came out. You know, go and watch it before listening to rest of the episode, unless like me, you had zero plans of watching it until your podcast co-host like, physically wrestled you into it. In which case just what—just listen to this episode instead.

JAZZA:  I think it a—I think it was—it was—it was just about time, you know. The first one back in the new year I felt like it was a good time.

ROWAN: I guess.

JAZZA:  Exactly. So, without further ado, let's maybe read a book a bit, then listen to some fall asleep by the pond, and then maybe contemplate my own way before having sex with my childhood friend on a dusty mattress and review, Call Me By Your Name.

ROWAN:  Wow.

[theme]

ROWAN:  Okay, so the first bit of context that we—I want to talk about is a contexes of something that's within the movie itself, which is the age gap, I'd say in inverted commas, romance. So this is kind of part of the controversy around the movie. I will confess that I have basically, the reason why I hadn't seen the film was because just the very concept of this really icks me out. And so I was I am particularly want to watch this happening on screen. And so I also haven't looked at a lot of like the discourse, commentary and stuff on it. So this is—what I'm about to say is some information from the film, and then my thoughts about it. So the information from the film is one of the characters Elio play by Timothy Chamalet,is 17. And the other character, Oliver played by Armie Hammer is 24. When they were playing those roles, Armie Hammer was a lot older than 24, he was in his 30s. But similarly, Timmy was 20/21, depending on reports, the age that he was when he filmed this varies, but he was wasn't a teenager. However, it is also I think, sort of, we need to point out that, in terms of how it looks, Timmy does look like a teenager, he looks like a boy. And Armie Hammer does look his 30 something years old. So there is the knowledge within the summary of this movie that one of them is 17, one of them is 24. And then there is the visuals that are presented in the movie, as well. And both of these things, I think probably have a—will have an impact on the people who are watching it and how they interpret the movie. And this is at the age gaps scene in queer movies is a thing. I don't think there's any denying that. At age gaps and queer relationships are also a thing. And so I think that on the one hand, you can say, well, age gaps in general in relationships happen, showing them on screen, it's just showing something that happens in reality. So gay movies, like Blue Is the Warmest Color etc, etc, have this as a trope. And it to such an extent that there are almost more lists of queer movies without age gap in like letterbox and recommendations and they are with, it seems like a lot of people are trying to escape from it. But I think the reason why this movie in particular has that controversy element to it, is the 17 year old element that one of them is like a minor. And although you—I'm sure could argue that technically, legally the age of consent do,do,do and for my understand it was 14 at the time in 1983 in Italy, that a lot of these age gaps that we talked about in other movies are between adults who have an age gap, who might be more than this, but they are two adults. And therefore I think a lot of people would say that there are some differences between the relationship and like the favor for example, between Emma Stone's character and uh— 

JAZZA:  Olivia Coleman.

ROWAN:  —Olivia Coleman. Yeah.

JAZZA:  My god.

ROWAN:  Dear Lord. The memory issues really going—

JAZZA:  Cancel her now.

ROWAN:  Cancel me. Yeah, between Olivia Coleman and Emma Stone, for example, will probably be seen in a different way because of that. Because I think with age gaps, it's not just the arbitrary idea of like, those are just two numbers with numbers in between them, I think it is the idea of a difference in experience as well as age, that can heighten an age gap into an area that might feel predatory. And I think that that is especially interesting to discuss when we're talking about queer relationships uh in media, because predatory stereotypes are such a huge part of the kind of stereotypes around queer people, right? It's like, if you look at back, with section 28, or with Anita Bryant, the idea of like, queer people are inherently predatory and dangerous to have around children. And all this kind of stuff feels like it adds an extra layer of complication on to this kind of story. I would say that from my point of view within this film, and I know that the book is from Elio's point of view. And I think the movie also gives the story to us from the point of view of this teenager. And so I can understand there being an element of like, the music, it's very romantic, for example, because we're in this character's point of view. And from his point of view, it's like the most romantic thing to happen. And it's this like, clandestine relationship and he's—it's because his burgeoning sexuality and all this kind of stuff. And I also think that just because something is in a film, or in a book, it doesn't mean it's being endorsed necessarily by the author or the writers or the director. However, I do think that all of the marketing and a lot of the framing around this movie does want to paint it as this big romantic journey for this character and this big relationship. So that includes the music, that includes the marketing, that includes like the conversation with the understanding parent to kind of like lampshade the idea of like, hey, audience, you might think this is relationships a bit dodgy, but this parent, his own parent says it's fine. So actually, I think you're fine, it's fine. So yeah, I kind of came into this thinking, trying to look at it with an open mind, but kind of thinking like, at the very most it's going to—I'm going to just find it a bit icky. But I have to admit, when I was watching the movie, I like actively were seeing stuff that looked like grooming to me, or that had issues with consent on both sides. And so for me, it was like, less of just the age gap as a general concept and more of specifically, like a minor and an adult in a relationship in which it was very unhealthy, but was being portrayed as this like, sort of Romeo and Juliet, like secret beautiful love, like fleeting, one summer, you know, vibe that I didn't necessarily—didn't necessarily vibe with in that sort of way. I was seeing it more was like, oh, this is like everything this—this character is doing is—is clearly he is a child. And he's like cuddling with his parents. And he's like shaving his non existent mustache. And he's like, being really bratty. And then there's, like, this adult character who's very confident and very, like self assured and, and it just felt very strange to me. I don't know how you felt about that element of the film Jazza. But that was—we sort of assign ourselves to listen, I think we've mentioned this before, sort of elements of the context that we each want to dive into, and then the other one kind of probably presented to each other in the moment. So I don't know how you felt about this Jazza from your perspective.

JAZZA:  Yeah, I remember, this was the second time that I have watched this movie. And I remember the first time having a very similar reaction to the one that you just did. So I was a little bit fed up with the like yet another large age gap representation. One where it was a like, Chalamet's character is very codified as kind of like a young child especially at the beginning of the movie. We've kind of like all of the things that he does, like his brattiness as well as like the—like the—the shaving the mustache, I think is kind of like one of the—the clear things of like this really segments his boyhood. The visuals as well I will go with you of Hammer and Chalamet, as the—I don't care what the says, this is a romantic movie.seeing those two as romantic leads, it is quite jarring with the way that they look because it looks like a fully grown man and a boy. That said, a lot of the—a lot of the background work that I did on thi, on Call Me By Your Name, span off of a really great video essay that Lola Sebastian did, which I will link in the show notes. And I will encourage anybody who really, really wants a thorough, thoughtful, nuanced, deep dive into this movie and its context. And the way that kind of like all of these, especially the controversies intersect, how the Internet has talked about them, I'd encourage you to go and watch that video essay. She was really, really good at articulating the way that this film seems very much to be. And I think one of the intentions of it, and you can see it in the way that a lot of the artistic shots and the way that it's filmed and the—the score as well, how this is meant to be an idealized version of a memory that Timothy, Timothy Chalamet. That Chalamet's character is having. I think when you read this as the memory that Chalamet has of this romance that he had, as he was growing up, I think that that contextualizes what I think it is in lots of different ways. I—I wouldn't go as far as saying that it looks like grooming because I think that Hammers character has a lot of vulnerabilities and in many ways seems a lot less, like even less experienced than Chal—than Chalamet's character in many—in many ways his innocence.

ROWAN:  I don't think that, that precludes grooming, right? Because there's a load of stuff he does. Where it's like this is I think—I think as well if you're going to argue that it is a rose tinted, like version of the memory. You can also say hey, there isn't behaviors that he's exhibiting where he's like getting him alone and taking them on special trips, that only they get to go on. And then like all of this kind of stuff that's like textbook grooming, that then I could—I could just as easily see that being twisted to be like okay, so all of those things where he's like, no, we shouldn't, it will be too naughty of us. Like seen by him as this like, oh, you know, he was just—he was looking out for me. He—he said we could wait until I was 16. Like he said, we would wait until I was 16 kind of energy, that I think is a bit touche. I—I would argue that the reading of it being his memory holds way more weight, if they had kept the canon of the book, which is that it is a memory. The fact there's no like framing device used in the movie, I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable giving you that generosity of like—

JAZZA:  Sure. It's less obvious. Yeah.

ROWAN:  There's no point is even having a ration at the beginning. Like a lot—even a line of him being like, it was like, so long ago, that hot summer in 1983. Like there's none of that. So I do think it's from his point of view—

JAZZA:  Fair enough.

ROWAN:  But I wouldn't necessarily say that the— that the movie feels like it's obviously from the point of view of someone grown up looking back, because there's no framing device that suggests that to me.

JAZZA:  I do think I—I do think that that is there in the way that it is shot. And I do think that it's there. I do think it's there. But I will agree that it isn't obvious. And I think that the grooming stuff. Yeah, I think it—I think that there's no getting away from it. I think it is problematic. However, the second time that I watched this, and I—and like I said I had a lot of the same kind of hang ups that you had. However, the second time watching this movie through, I ended up really identifying with Chalamet's character in a way that I never did, the first time that I watched it, because I too, was a teenage gay, and I too had relationships with older men. And there's a lot of it and like, like you said in real life, queer relationships, larger age gaps are more common for a variety of reasons, not least, because there's fewer of us, not least because very often, we don't have the kind of guidance from elder figures in families or whatever that may be we turned to those who are queer and older in our communities, and sometimes that forms relationships—romantic relationships, but I saw a lot of kind of like the emotions of Chalamet's character, like reflected in the experience that I had of kind of like that. First, kind of like almost fearful, like, do you dive into this? That's the central question. Like, do you—like, do you act on these feelings? That's the central question of the movie.

ROWAN:  See, I think that is the tricky thing about around the movie. It's like, there isn't—you can't say that this is some unrealistic, like weird thing that's been conjured from the mind of a—of the director, you know what I mean? Like—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —there is a lot of reality going on in here. And I think that it's—the very fact that like, both of us have a different interpretation of what's going on here isn't necessarily a film, I feel like has a particular thesis to it, where they literally say what they want you to think about this relationship and whether it's good or bad, or healthy or unhealthy or whatever. And I think you can read into it, and say, okay, well, this could be evidence of them, saying that it's meant to be some kind of epic romance, or this isn't an element of saying that it's unhealthy or whatever. But I think for me, it was just the experience of watching it was like, oh, this is just so like, I just have like a very visceral reaction to it. But in the same way, there will be people who will see themselves in these characters or like in this particular dynamic that will have an equally visceral reaction that's based on whatever emotions they have about their own experiences that run parallel to this as well.

JAZZA:  And I think that it's a bi— it's a— it is a nuanced story, that we are allowed to have kind of like the—these different and kind of like complex emotions about. I do not think that it is necessarily a, a great romantic epic. I think in many ways, actually, this is more of a tragedy. 

ROWAN:  Oh, yeah. 

JAZZA:  Than it is a romance.

ROWAN:  Oh 100%.

JAZZA:  Especially with the way that it ends. But yeah, just so that we don't spend too much time talking about the age gap thing. I think this is a—a good point for me to bring in some of the—the other background—

ROWAN:  The other background—

JAZZA:  —of this.

ROWAN:  —that's come about. Jazza, tell me what you were researching this week.

JAZZA:  I read a really long Vanity Fair article about Armie Hammer, whose name is Armand.

ROWAN:  Oohhh.

JAZZA:  Did you know that?

ROWAN:  No, I didn't.

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  What a fun— wha—what a nice way of you stalling what you're about to talk about Jazza, allegedly.

JAZZA:  And it's still a allegedly. So one of the big burdens that hangs around the neck of this movie, is the fact that Armie Hammer is one of the two leads at it. And Armie Hammer was one of the people who all maybe had a bit of a consequential pandemic, shall we say? So Armie Hammer during the pandemic, there were lots of allegations against him. Those have ended up, it's important to say not being pursued in court. But then there were lots of leaked messages from women who had dated Armie Hammer, where it seemed that he was at least role playing. And there were alleged conversations, face to face that he had about this around cannibalism. Now, to be clear, the—the kink of cannibalism does not mean that Armie Hammer is a cannibal.

ROWAN:  We're not saying Armie Hammer has eaten anybody, just to make it clear.

JAZZA:  We're just to— just to make it clear. So since the allegations of sexual abuse and the revelations of his alleged kink around cannibalism came out, Armie has had a rough couple of years and has been—was dropped from his agency and dropped from a number of projects, even being completely edited out of at least one of them at time of us recording. The fact that Armie Hammer plays the role of the older person in this big age gap relationship also makes it very difficult watch. And I can understand why this makes it a very difficult watch for many people. Armie Hammer is also kind of like, it's somewhat of a problematic person anyway, based on the fact that he kind of like rode the wave of like pseudo feminism, and from being from a rich family was then able to basically got his way into Hollywood through all of these kinds of like indie projects and stuff like that. So that is what I have been reading.

ROWAN:  Oh that is such fun. I also think it's very important to know that since this, Timothy has been in accountable movie, which I think is just the wildest turn of events. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, I heard just to spite Armie Hammer.

ROWAN:  Just to spite Armie Hammer. And it's really—so this is, I think, really interesting, to—like so relevant to this movie. But just as a thing that's been obviously I feel like it'd be strange for us not to talk about this, when it's such a huge part of like, what has happened since around like the mythos of this movie, is the fact that like the sexual abuse allegations, like the—the cannibalism kink kind of sense that used to sensationalize, what were like, actual serious allegations, because as Jazza said, listen, if you like to do dirty talk about eating someone's toes, then like, all power to you like, that's all fine. As long as everything consensual, it's great. I think it's that lack of the consent issue, that is the issue. But also, I imagine that Timothy is probably quite relieved that he is—

JAZZA:  The sequel isn't being made anymore.

ROWAN:  —that the sequel isn't being made anymore. And I think a lot of people are kind of like, oh, nope, this isn't a vibe. And so I think that it's something that is always kind of going to be attached to the legacy of this movie. And that is a part of me that, that is like actually, probably these allegations were even unconsciously in the back of my mind. We're watching it now, and I don't know if I would have had a different like visceral experience watching it before then or whether it would have been the same for me. 

JAZZA:  And even—and even outside of this. There's one more thing that 

ROWAN:  Okay, another. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, there's one more thing that I think that we should consider here. So the Vita of the original book, Andre Aciman is also become a somewhat controversial figure. He did an interview in a Air Catalonia, which is a Spanish publication, saying, and I quote a translation here, I see 12 year old girls, and I find them attractive, which understandably—

ROWAN:  Isn't good. 

JAZZA:  Bad.

ROWAN:  Bad in fact, some might say. And I think as well, like this is—this is—this is one of those things where it's like, okay, if we're going to be talking about the idea of authorial intent, and all that kind of stuff, like all of this stuff does get messy, and it is on one level that it is like an intellectual exercise of like, can you separate the art from the artist? I think it's also a practical exercise of do you want to financially support someone who behaves in a certain way or, or think certain things. And then there's the emotional idea of like, you're not necessarily logically thinking about it, you just have an emotional visceral reaction, whether negative or positive to certain stuff. And I think those things are all very complicated and mixed together, in a way that means that it's compli—It's complicated essentially. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. 100%.  And like, you can approach this or at least try to approach this with like a depth of the other thing. I think it is, I think with  Call Me By Your Name, it is possible—for me anyway, it is possible to watch this without kind of like it then being something that ties wit— ties back to that, I think it has artistic merit and artistic context, without the stuff around and stuff around Armie Hammer tainting it. However, I think it's still important that you know that those are things that are swimming around in the primordial soup of what happened when society met this movie. And if you don't kind of like acknowledge those things and understand those things, that means that you don't understand the wider context of kind of like how this movie fits into our society properly.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Of course you can not—you can—you can enjoy the art separate from that. But then once that art is into intersecting with everything else, then there's—let's just say background reading that you have to do. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  That's quite a lot of it.

ROWAN:  And I think it's also very legitimate to be like, actually, nope. 

JAZZA:  Oh, sure.

ROWAN:  And also, but—but—but like, for example, the fact of like, hey, you can have this source material, which is this book, and you come at it from a—the point of view of the gay director who directed this movie and be like, okay, I see something in this experience of my experience, as a boy having an experience like Elio did, and I would like to reflect that very particular nuanced experience on film, in a way that is, since we're talking about the other genre, I guess, within this movie, with an authorial intent that comes less from the original writer of the book, and more from the, like a queer creator of the movie. But again, all of this is very complicated. And I think that like, this is one of the reasons why I think this movie is interesting to talk about, because there—there are so many ways to interpret it. And so many external things and internal things in the movie that are, I think, for a lot of people aren't even necessarily logically explainable as to how they feel about it, whether it is because of their own personal experience, or their experience of of this in other movies that makes them either more used to it, or more heightened ly aware of the potential problematic nature. But having said that I guess, shall we talk about the movie itself?

JAZZA:  Shall we actually do that now?

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  Let's go.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Hello, friends Jazza here for the ad read. As returning listeners will know, we are part of Multitude, a collective of creators who make stuff for your ears, as in audio, not like so anything like that. This week, we want to give a shout out to one of our sibling shows, Games and Feelings. Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games, join question keeper, Eric Silver, and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. Since you know, you got to play games with other people. And we're talking every single type of game. Let's go, video games of all stripes, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, d&d podcasts, the companies and workers that make these games. Anything you can think of really. Questions will include how do you convince people who have only played Monopoly, to play the new board game that you grabbed at the game shop? Is an escape room a good third date? And what makes video games cozy? And are there any recommendations? Eric and his friends answer any and all questions as long as they're games related. If you like what you hear and want to level up your emotional intelligence stat, subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes every Friday. We're also continuing to be supported by Squarespace who can help you to buy a domain and create a website. We have in the past talked about how we use Squarespace extensively as professional internet people for website creation, giving us access to analytics. So we know where everybody is clicking through from, and the creation of email campaigns, so that we can, you know, bypass the algorithm to get to all of our followers. And also, we use it as a convenient way to be able to connect all of our social media in one place. We know that you hear a lot of your favorite creators, podcasts, media's, offering their discount codes, but it would really help us out at the Queer Movie Podcast if you use us and supported the Queer Movie Podcast. All you need to do, to do that is go to squarespace.com/queermovie. And when you're set up to make all your digital dreams come true, you can use the offer code, Queer Movie, that's all one word, to save 10 percentage points of your first purchase of a website or domain. Remember to go to squarespace.com/queermovie. Now back to the show.

[theme]

ROWAN:  Okay, I actually have some titles for the parts for this one.

JAZZA:  I will happily see to use let's go.

ROWAN:  Because we have previously in the last few episodes, it has just been Jazza. So part one, I have named Dance Like No One is Watching. Oh God, Why Am I Watching. Which could also be the party and its aftermath. In fact, again, there's a few parties and their aftermaths in here, which you know, longtime listeners of the show will know is a thing that queer movies do have. And we saw it in the summer of 1983 and skinny boy Tommy is you know speaking French and being topless in northern Italy. Classic. Essentially Timothy playing Elio is on holiday with his parents who are academics and his father as an archaeologist/digger, rapper, dredger of old things Professor man, and his mum is a posh woman. And—

JAZZA:  Yeah, just a—just a multi lingual, a polyglot. Sometimes French, sometimes American who knows?

ROWAN:  Can speak German—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —very talented family. And we see the kind of inciting incident is that Oliver? This guy who is going to be spending the summer with them, this academic they seem to take in academics every year of the summer, comes in exhausted, collapses on the bed of Elios room, because Elios has been moved next door. And essentially we find out that this guy is staying for the summer. And Elio is a—is a boy from a very talented family who also is very talented. He's a music boy, and loves to—loves to be an angsty teenager who plays music except when his parents want him to.

JAZZA:  Exactly. Um he's literally sitting there transcribing Bach, which I can't imagine.

ROWAN:  Pretentious little 17 year old.

JAZZA:  Pretentious little shit.  Can you imagine being 17 and actually being like him.

ROWAN:  He's like the word precocious in the dictionary you look at it's a picture of Elio.

JAZZA:  So we end up getting to know Oliver a little bit. He wears a style of David and we seem to wha—were explicitly told by Oliver when he talks about his family, how strict, how much more strict his family are. Elios family seemed to be perfect, right? Pretty much in every single way—they—the way that they kind of like encourage their son they—the way that they kind of like are accepting of the moments that he has over the summer. They seem like a really clutch tight knit group who are very affectionate with one another. At the very beginning, Elio is almost repulsed by Oliver. And I think that this is— the way that this is shown is not only by kind of like the brashness of his Americaness, and how confident and outgoing he is and how terribly he dances. That's like nobody is watching. But it's also and I love noticing this theme, the second time that I watched it. I think that a lot of that disgust at the beginning, especially at the beginning is shown through food. So the way that Oliver downs all of the juice, and like chugs it really, really quickly and 

ROWAN:  Smashing that egg in such a gross way.

JAZZA:  He like crushes this hard—the soft boiled egg.

ROWAN:  He's such a strong man.

JAZZA:  It is kind of like—So it kind of like cascades everywhere and all of the yolk goes everywhere. And it's quite grotesque. And we also hear Oliver talk about how, oh, if I have another one, then I just have another, another, I just can't help myself. 

ROWAN:  Just can't help yourself huh, Oliver. Interesting way of phrasing that Oliver. 

JAZZA:  And we um—

ROWAN:  He's just so American. He's just so loud. He's just constantly like any says he calls, he calls Elio man all the time. Like every time he talks to me, he's like, huh thanks, man. Thanks—thanks, man. Yeah, man. And I'm like, Thanks, childs. Thanks, boy.

JAZZA:  Big, big—big redIt's a big red flag for me actually, I'm gonna do just for a second because I was talking to a guy on Grindr just last night, and we were talking about our likes and dislikes. 

ROWAN:  We're talking about the politics of Call Me By Your Name. And—

JAZZA:  No, no, no. We were talking about the highlights and lowlights of so I am his latest album. And after every single thing he was like, yeah, I think that this hell is really some of her best work, bro. I'm like, do not—

ROWAN:  Bro me.

JAZZA:  —do not bro me, especially when talking about a queer artist like Anyway, and this like grotesqueness is obviously something that you could tie into the eventual really disgusting scene in fucking the page, where it's like, see—

ROWAN:  It's so sticky.

JAZZA:  So sticky, the sugars crystal was gonna get everywhere. 

ROWAN:  And he didn't even like wipe— anyway, well—we'll get to 

JAZZA:  Anyway—

ROWAN:  I think it's also very important to note here, for anyone who is a member of the Patreon not to plug the Patreon, but we do watch a lot of queer movies every month. And we talk about queer movies a lot over there. And we have a list now we've got like a bi—I think someone's made a bingo card of like, gay stuff and movies and bikes. Bikes are very gay everyone.

JAZZA:  Bikes are gay.

ROWAN:  Bikes are so gay. And I think this movie is like one of the top contenders for evidence for exhibit A bikes are gay, because all they bloody do in this movie is bike around and fuck those are—I mean, I guess some other stuff happens. But mainly, I feel like I could just put the bullet point, they bike around because bikes are gay, and it would be like a solid half hour of this movie at least. So while they are biking around on their gay little bikes, a bunch of stuff happens. So for example, they have this conversation about Judaism, about the idea that Elio seen Oliver's necklace and comments about the idea of like, besides my family, you're probably the only other dude to set foot in this town. Kind of creating this interesting sort of connection between them. We also get this conversation around like, what does he do during the summer, are we just like reads, and writes, and swims and apparently, for 17 year old, that's a terrible summer. Can't relate. And then we also have these interesting moments of contrast. So like Oliver takes Elio to this bar where these older men are playing cards. And Elio, like, joins them at the table, where he's like, clearly the youngest one trying to like fit it.

JAZZA:  But he's kind of sat back right. I think that—this was another way of like framing him as a child.

ROWAN:  He brings the chair in woods, whereas the very—it cuts to a scene with all of these other teenagers where he has pulled the chair away from the table, and it's like sitting apart. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's contrasting the old men and the young teens. And then you realize that Oliver is with the teens also playing with the teens. And I'm like Oliver, please just stop. And then that's when Oliver gives him this massage. And I'm like, Oliver, please stop it. You're too stressed, relax a little. Hey, isn't he too stressed, which is also the moment where he like shaves his nonexistent mustache during this section. And so it's basically just like a lot of interesting moments of like, Elio feeling like this summer is him becoming older, that he is—he's feeling separate from the immaturity of these like teenagers in his life, as he feels like he's more in line with his parents generation, these old man paying cars, this new fascinating guy who he's starting to like a little bit more, who's come into the picture, who's willing to spend time with him. And at this point, like he's still a little bit like, oh, I don't want to like he's grumpy about playing the piano with his dad. Like his parents are saying like, oh, you'll learn to like him as he's kind of making these little complaints about Oliver, and how he doesn't really like him. And then Elio obviously scoffs off this section of soul searching and growth by having a little masturbate, having a little bate. Classic teen boys shit gets interrupted by Oliver who comes in without knocking, very rude house guests. But that is—that is just smashing up eggs and knocking on doors. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, piercing really loudly with the door open and slammed. Yeah, all of that kind of stuff.

ROWAN:  And so we also have Oliver inviting Elio to come—to come swimming with me. Elio obviously brings music sheets with him because he's a little fucking nerd. And Oliver hilariously swims laps in a pool which is so tiny—

JAZZA:  Which is literally—

ROWAN:  One breaststroke, and he's on the other side of the pool 

JAZZA:  The—the pool is literally about two and a half meters long, so he like pushes off and that is the other end of the pool.

ROWAN:  So funny.

JAZZA:  Most pointless laps on the face of the planet.

ROWAN:  And then we also got like—basically just a lot of moments of them bonding in various ways and a lot of the time over like kind of intellectual stuff like the music. You know, Oliver complements him on playing the guitar, Elio immediately goes inside to play the piano and they have an argument about piano that I don't know enough about music to understand.

JAZZA:  I didn't—I didn't understand this at all. And I hated this scene, because I thought they both come across as I came across as absolute assholes.

ROWAN:  Classic. And then he—Elio writes in his diary about he's like, dear diary.

JAZZA:  Yeah, 

ROWAN:  I don't think he likes me, 

JAZZA:  I was too harsh with him. Why did—Yeah. Oh no.

ROWAN:  like over and over again, like the child that he is, and then also at one point I've just written Elio bullies the dying fish, which is just like an old man.

JAZZA:  I haven't even thought of this scene. Why the hell was the 

ROWAN:  Elio an old man comes to show Elio the fishes he's like clearly just caught and they're gonna like cook that night. And Elio just like looks dead into this fish's eyes, that's like gasping for water, I guess, and just mimics it and I'm like, wow, Elio, that poor fish in its last moments, just has some precocious teenager taking the piss.

JAZZA:  In everything that happened in this movie. And it's a long movie. I cannot believe that—that is a thing that has stayed in your mind.

ROWAN:  It was just this poor—he was like, oh, you've caught the fish. And I was like, oh, nice a fish. And then it was just a close up on a dying fish. I was like someone put that fish back in the water, stop. And then we have the dance. The party that I named this part of after, which is just an awkward outdoor disco, where Elio sort of hangs out with some of his fellow teens. There's different table because he's different and an old soul. We're watching Oliver kiss his childhood best friend. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Who again is also a teenager. And dances like a dad. I put here Oliver dances like a dad, Elio smokes like a dad. And then clearly he's so affected by this. So he's like, you know what I'm gonna do, fuck a girl. And so he goes swimming with Marzia, I think her name is Marzia.

JAZZA:  Marzia.

ROWAN:  And the next morning is like dad, I almost had sex. And then his dad's like, why didn't you cock, and then Oliver's like yeah, try again, later loser. Verbatim. And he then he does. That's—that's—that's exactly a quote—quotes from the movie.

JAZZA:  You cock. That I ha—I have great umbrage with the sex scene, especially with Marzia. Not only does poor Marcia deserve better, and she—she needs to get the fuck over, Elio, come on girl, but also their fucking on a very dirty, very dusty mattress in an attic somewhere.

ROWAN:  He love—that boy loves to do it outside, or in a building where you can see the sky.

JAZZA:  Yeah. 100% and is surrounded by dust and microbes that are probably going to give you a venereal disease. 

ROWAN:  Not good.

JAZZA:  So good luck—and it's the 80s, Penicillin didn't exist then. So they're all fucked.

ROWAN:  Yeah, of course, the 1980s.

JAZZA:  That's just science, Rowan.

ROWAN:  So basically, to sum up—I don't know how I'm explaining this in such a long winded way. Because basically all that happens is that they bike around and then they fuck, but they go on an archaeology trip. And they call each other by each other's names. That's the title of the movie.

JAZZA:  They haven't even—they haven't eve—you're skipping

ROWAN:  No, when they're swimming. This is before—

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  —they didn't only— this isn't the sexy bit. This is when they're in the water when they're swimming and you hear them shouting each other's names.

JAZZA:  Oh, I didn't even 

ROWAN:  And I was like, yeah, that we're getting to the part of the movie. Basically, this one Elio is extremely sexually frustrated, puts all of his shorts on his head, get on all fours on the bed. I'm like, please stop, sir. But only does it for about two seconds. I'm like commit to the bit, and uh—and then it's act two, and essentially more of the same.

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JAZZA:  What is your act two called, Rowan?

ROWAN:  Call me by your name, That's the title of the movie.

JAZZA:  I called this fucking people in fruits.

ROWAN:  Yes, that's also true. This is where the World War Memorial thing came in. Which I think you had some notes on.

JAZZA:  Yeah, so the—the tension of this scene I really, really enjoy because it's earlier on in the film. We've heard Elio's mother the polyglot who we're not really sure what she does, live translates a book about a knight and a princess. And how the knight is terrified to say anything with the princess that he's in love with, like, do you say something, or do you die? That this clearly sits with Elio because he's building up all of these emotions, as we've seen with all of the doodling, with all of kind of like the storytelling of the movie, with the subtlety, and the subtlety of him putting Armie Hammer pants over his head. 

ROWAN:  Very Subtle.

JAZZA:  Yeah, very subtle. And so he ends up deciding to do something about it. And I love the building of the tension, the amount of silence that fills the space of the scenes I think is really fantastically well done. So they're —they're watching looking at this from World War One. And he says to Oliver, there are some things I don't know stuff about. Oliver says like what, and just with the words oh, you know what? We all know that talking about sexy fun bomb time. And so—

ROWAN:  Direct quote from the movie.

JAZZA:  Direct quote from the movie. So they end up in like this—this tension builds Oliver says we can't speak of such things. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Elio then takes Oliver to his secret spot, which—

ROWAN:  and then he takes all over to his secret spot, if you know what I mean.

JAZZA:  You are fucking chaotic today, Rowan.

ROWAN:  Listen, you should have known when you made me watch this bloody movie that I was gonna come to you with this nonsense.

JAZZA:  So they rolled around on the grass a little bit. It's not quite wrestling, which is 

ROWAN:  Another classic trope. 

JAZZA:  Yeah, I don't think you can quite mark this off on your bingo card. But they end up making out, and Oliver reinforces this thing of I want to be good. I don't want to be bad. We haven't done anything naughty yet. hehe. Tehehe. And then—

ROWAN:  Elio's nose starts bleeding at dinner from the stress of dealing with heterosexual bickering is what I've put in my notes. And so again, like there's another moment where Oliver goes to check on him, rubs his feet, kisses them. Elio's mom is like, do you like Oliver and Elio's like, um, what did he tell you, did he tell you that I liked him. And she notices that he's wearing a Star of David. And it's like, oh, I think the parents might be figuring it out. I wonder what's going to happen. Spoiler alert, this isn't the like third act. Don't. You can't see him. But daddy I love him. Like that's not the what the drama is gonna be.

JAZZA:  I was watching Nerdwriter do his video about this. And there is—

ROWAN:  Actuall research.

JAZZA:  There was really great—

ROWAN:  Jazza John over here. 

JAZZA:  —and it was really great commentary on the fact that you're always—and I was also thinking this, there was—this building tension of when are they going to be found out? So there's—they mentioned the housekeeper was really diligent, she might notice. And there's the worry that like, especially the parents, we keep on getting seated that they're noticing stuff, with like slight glances and looks. And we— like I have an underlying like tension and uneasiness when you see this because I expect there to be the low point in the just before the third act to be they get found out. And then there was consequences to that.

ROWAN:  The difference is I wish there had been, but unfortunately. 

JAZZA:  Yeah. Yeah.

ROWAN:  Okay.

JAZZA:  That was, yeah, we get it. There's part of me that really likes the fact that, that never happens in a scenario like this, in a queer story that there isn't—it—it like, it's not like they're pretending that they're in a world where homophobia doesn't exist, especially in 1980s, Italy. And they are having to be kind of, like, clandestine about it. But that is never a fear, that kind of like comes to fruition. The fear is them not being together. And they managed to avoid that by acting on it.

ROWAN:  Only just.

JAZZA:  Only, only just. So they are, they end up being together for kind of like, a couple of weeks, and they're lamenting, oh my God, how annoying that we didn't roll around naked earlier. And eventually, this is where I have the beginning of the third act, where the parents end up suggesting that they go on holiday together, essentially. 

ROWAN:  Yeah. I mean, we haven't mentioned, but this is also the section where he fucks a peach.

JAZZA:  Oh, my God.

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

JAZZA:  So how did you engage with the peach?

ROWAN:  I was just like, get some wet wipes, at least. Also don't like leave it on your bedside table when you take a nap.

JAZZA:  Yeah, it is kind of disgusting. But there's also lots of people who have done loads of disgusting things in the pursuit of self pleasure. 

ROWAN:  Of course they have. 

JAZZA:  And I actually quite like, despite the fact that everybody—the reason that people went to see this movie is because of the fucking peach scene. And it was sensationalized and it were, and everybody found it funny. But the movie takes it deadly seriously.

ROWAN:  Oh, it's so serious. He goes on such a face journey. Timmy goes on such a fucking face journey during the scene, where it occurs to me could fuck a peach. And then he's like, I'm a—I'm fucking this peach.

JAZZA:  It's very American pie, with the American Pie.

ROWAN:  Right. And so yeah, I just—okay, so this whole second act, I will say, again, we get it Rowan, you have some thoughts about it. But it was really—it was almost frustrating to me, because I wasn't—there were so many lines from Oliver, where it's unclear if he's talking about his own internalized homophobia or whether he is aware of the fact he's about to fuck a 17 year old. Because it's a lot of like, I don't want to mess you up, I want you to be sure. Like, he seems really excited about like Elio's shorts, teenage boy refractory period. I don't want you to regret anything. And  I—it's frustrating, because I'm like, I almost wish that some of these lines in this like attitude had been within a movie without that age gap, where it had been a character who would—

JAZZA:  A peer, well, if they were peers, like I—

ROWAN:  If they were peers, and one of them was outwardly—

JAZZA:  If it was  17 and a 19 year old—

ROWAN:  Oh, if it yeah, it was like, I kind of wish that we'd had because some of the—some of the emotions, like felt really interesting if it had been about queerness. But I was always so aware of the fact it could just be an adult being like, I don't know, you're so mature, but I don't want to do anything that's gonna get us in trouble. And Elio's like,  I won't tell anyone like, and so I kind of wish that we'd had like, that same energy of like having a peers who are in different stages in their queerness. Having that kind of emotional conversations would have been interesting to me.

JAZZA:  A lot of the criticism of the movie I have seen that I think is somewhat misguided has been, why didn't they just make Elio 18? And I think that there are still so many of the same problems

ROWAN:  Yeah. I agree.

JAZZA:  You just bump Elio up a year. 

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  What I think actually would fix this movie. It's making—I'm available. Is—is making Oliver younger, making Oliver an undergrad, making him like 19 or something along those lines, which would still work with that story. It would still make sense like a first year undergrad applies for a research.

ROWAN:  Yeah, summer research.

JAZZA:  Petition, some of the—Program. Yeah, whatever. And then, because I think Oliver's character in the movie is battling a lot of the same things that Elio is, and in many ways, because of his more conservative background is having those, those battles in a much more intense way that I think would feel more sympathetic. If he were—

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  If there weren't kind of like this huge power imbalance that they have. That is glaring about it. And so if we can go through and do kind of like some reshoots because Timothy looks exactly the same age.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JAZZA:  And maybe we're getting another character completely wiped out Armie Hammer of the movie. 

ROWAN: easy, breezy.

JAZZA:  We can—we can do it. Yeah. 

ROWAN:  What did you call act three?

JAZZA:  I called Act Three. This was my party and it's aftermath. And I called it a party in its aftermath, only because of that dancing that they did on the street and then Elio throws up. 

ROWAN:  That's fair.

JAZZA:  Because that's my idea of a good party.

ROWAN:  Yeah. my—my part three was bitch, they knew each other for like three weeks. I mean, you can sum up this entire thing. This is a very top heavy episode, I think for everyone. Like we did a lot of context and a lot of build up. But essentially, they go on holiday together. 

JAZZA:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  They fuck, they get drunk in the street, they dance. Everything's great. And then all of us like bye. 

JAZZA:  And then Ol—well, because

ROWAN: come to an end, I have to go and Elio's at the train station, like mom please, come on pick me up.

JAZZA:  calls up his mom and go mommy, can you come and pick me up please.

ROWAN:  Come pick me up from the station, I'm here. And then Elio goes right back to Marzia, and it's like, and she's like, I'm not mad at you for fucking that man, let's stay friends for life. And he's like, for life babe. And then Elio's dad and him have an interesting conversation, where it's like, implied that maybe his dad had a similar romance that he didn't quite go full.

JAZZA:  He says it pretty explicitly. I feel like 

ROWAN:  You had a beautiful friendship, maybe more than a friendship. Like all of this vibes. What you had was rare and special.when I was like, bitch, they knew each other for three weeks, calm down.

JAZZA:  But it's like, you're such 

ROWAN:  Anti-romantic. Oh you're right.  One of these days, I'll find the romance that satisfies me.

JAZZA:  I'm not a romantic. I'm anti romantic. Evil. But I I really love this monologue. And I think about the I can't remember the exact of the line. But I think about that it's better to have. It's the—it's better to have love

ROWAN:  Yeah. And the importance of feeling those emotions. I also really appreciated the scene I thought was really beautifully scripted, I think it's—

JAZZA:  Soft dad, we stan.

ROWAN:  Yeah, soft dad, we stan, where he's essentially just like, hey, you need to feel these feelings. And because what I don't want to happen is that you go into these into future relationships with this still being feeling like heavy baggage to you and feeling like it's going to affect your life going forwards in a negative way because you haven't actually allowed yourself to feel every part of it. And come to terms with it, which I felt like was very, you know, a nice thing to say. And then also there's the exchange of does mom know, I don't think she does. And I'm like, mom knows fucking everything. No, mom knows everything about both of you idiots.

JAZZA:  Yeah, of course she fucking knows.

ROWAN:  You fools.

JAZZA:  She sees everything

ROWAN:  She sees everything. And then the end of the movie. It's winter now, Happy Hanukkah, everyone.

JAZZA:  Happy Hanukkah.

ROWAN:  And what could be a better Hanukkah gift than Oliver calling the family to, to tell them that he's getting married to a woman that he was on and off seeing during the summer when he was with Elio. 

JAZZA:  Great.

ROWAN:  The end of the movie. And then Elio sits down and cries into a fire. That's yeah, that is literally the end of the film. And the credits are over Timmy doing a good bit of face acting again. This time not about whether he wants to fuck a peach, but whether you know he's a— he's— he's experiencing that happiness and sadness that dad told him to experience looking into the fire.

JAZZA:  So you mock the face acting, but he did get in the 

ROWAN:  No, I'm not mocking the face acting. He did a very good face acting. I'm not— I would—I would never mock him for it. I'm just pointing out that he did it twice. And I would say the second time has a slightly more emotional weight to it. And that was Call Me By Your Name.

[theme]

JAZZA:  Jazza.

ROWAN:  Absolutely not. I will not play this game with you. 

JAZZA:  Jazza.

ROWAN:  Rowan.

JAZZA:  We are now at the part of the podcast, where we give our very good ratings. So we like to give each of the movies that we rate a number of the colored bars of the six rainbow flag. They are red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, blue for harmony and purple for spirit. Rowan,what bars and how many are you giving?

ROWAN:  I'm sorry Jazza, it's getting one. For the—

JAZZA:  I can't believe you're so 

ROWAN:  —boredom and the ickyness. And I'm gonna say it gets yellow for sun, because it was in Italy during the summer.

JAZZA:  It was basically a tourism advert for Northern Italy to be fair.

ROWAN:  It really was. So I want to go to all of those places. I did write in my notes like a question mark find out if the house from Call Me By Your Name is an air b&b now,  like can we go there? When I was probably meant to be focusing on whatever was going on on screen. Jazza, how about you, how many bars and which colors? 

JAZZA:  Yeah, fuck you. I'm giving it five.

ROWAN:  Of course, she fucking

JAZZA:  So I'm giving it life/sex red. I'm gonna give it healing because—which is orange because of the healing—

ROWAN:  At the end. 

JAZZA:  —that happens at the end. Then I'm gonna give it the sunlight because it's an advert for Northern Italy and I love Lake Garda, and I want to have my honeymoon there. Nature, obviously, I can't believe that you miss that off. So I'm giving it the green, and then I'm going to give—

ROWAN:  The peach.

JAZZA:  —candle so he fucks a plant. And then I'm gonna give it a purple for spirit. 

ROWAN:  I'll allow it.

JAZZA:  Because I needed to give it

ROWAN:  Yeah, you have to give another one. Not very harmonious. I would be fascinated to hear what other people— I always wonder what listeners think about the films that we watch, but for this one especially I'm— I'm extra interested, considering I think this is the most divisive in terms of our final ratings that a film has been.

JAZZA:  I think this is the most divergent from

ROWAN:  Yeah. And so I would love to hear whether people agree with me or wrong.

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ROWAN:  So thank you very much for listening to this episode of the podcast, and all that the It has been—if you enjoy these episodes, please consider supporting us on the Patreon I mentioned earlier. As a patron, you get to join art Queer Movie Club,  will be watch Queer movies every month on our Discord, which you will also get access to. And then at higher levels, we've got exciting things like movie recommendations, monthly newsletters with lots of gay stuff that we've found on the internet during the month. So check it out, because it allows us to pay Julia, our editor, and then maybe eventually ourselves.

JAZZA:  It would be nice for me. Thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier that we have on Patreon. Like its pinch self. Oh, it's real. Makes us feel nice. 

ROWAN:  Thank you.

JAZZA:  Thank you very much.

ROWAN:  And then also make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast, so that you're notified of our next episode wherever you listen to your podcasts. We have been Jazza John and Rowan Ellis. We are edited by Julia Schifini, and a part of Multitude find more of that amazing stuff at multitude.productions

JAZZA:  Toodaloo.

ROWAN:  Thanks.

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