Movies That Made Me Queer with Joel from Fictional Fates

Rowan speaks to veritable intellectual (they actually read), Joel Rochester from Fictional Fates who goes through the media which made them queer! From Barbie to Mulan and, of course, the Pirates franchise.

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

 

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

 

ROWAN:  Before we dive into today's episode, we want to say thanks once again to our two amazing rainbow parent-level patrons. Jennifer and Toby, an incredible round of applause for you. If you're interested in finding out more about how to become a rainbow parent level patron or any level patron, to be honest, then the link will be in the description. You can find all of the fun and exciting perks there.

ROWAN:  Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of our guest's specials. Today we're joined by a very special guest who will be answering the question what movies made you queer? I'm very excited to welcome, Joel Rochester aka Fictional Fates. 

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JOEL:  Hi, everyone. 

ROWAN:  Woooh. So Joel, for people who are listening who might not know who you are, can you tell us a little bit about what you do?

JOEL:  Yeah, I can. Hello, everyone, my name is Joel, otherwise known as Fictional Fates on most other platforms. I basically create a lot of like bookish content online. So like reviewing books, discussing books, talking about books, and crying about books a lot of the time, but I also delve into like other little bits, like productivity, and video gaming, every now and again. And yeah, it's just been pretty fun. I'm in a bit of a transformational era at the minute because I've just moved and there are boxes of bookshelves behind me that I still need to build. But I'm very excited to like continue creating more and more content in the future.

ROWAN:  Just a—the booky, a booky.

JOEL:  A booky.

ROWAN:  Little bookworm.  

JOEL:  Hihi.

ROWAN:  Yeah, amazing. I like—I so I know, Joel, because we work together on some, like YouTube stuff at Penguin.

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  The publisher, not the Biscuit Company, if you're from the UK. So I'm always a big admirer of the fact that they, you know, read books as someone who simply, you know, doesn't, apart from the ones that she asked to read for work. So, anyone who has good reads in which they managed to read more than like a book a month, I'm like, wow, an intellectual, an incredible person.

JOEL:  An intellectual?

ROWAN:  With a dedication. I simply buy them and then forget to read them.

JOEL:  Ah, yes, that is—that is a certain mood.

ROWAN:  So I kind of used queer as a bit of an umbrella term, a catch-all in that section but, how do you identify? What words would you put in that title

JOEL:  Oooh. I would identify as a non-binary bisexual.

ROWAN:  Amazing. So you are in fact answering the question of what movies made you a non-binary bisexual. This kind of episode, we've done a few of these in the past. And it's really a mix. It's—it's whatever the guests bring, right? So we've had some people answer it in a very serious way, talk about the importance of representation and what it really meant to them. And some people are just like, I wanted to fuck the Fox from the Disney's automated Robin Hood. And everything in between. So I'm going into this completely, with no knowledge. Joel has not informed me of any of these choices, so feel free to give them to me in any order that you like, from least to most chaotic, from you know youngest age that you encountered them to oldest. I will leave it up to you. Take it away.

JOEL:  Oh, amazing. Okay, so I think like the very first thing that came to mind was the Barbie films. Because—

ROWAN:  Incredible.

JOEL:  I could go into like a whole like analysis on like Barbie movies and like queerness. But my youngest sister used to like, own and watch all of the Barbie films. And so sometimes they're just like, oh, I'll just watch them with you see, like, what they're about. And I didn't know there was just something about the way that Barbie was just able to, like, be fully herself, be like, anything and everything she wanted to be. And like, you know, have amazing outfits and like, transform into like different, like magical scenarios. I was like, wow, I kind of want to be something like that. And I think there was just something so magical about like, the concept of Barbie and I notice that I was like, I—I relate, and I don't know why yet, but I relate.

ROWAN:  I have a confession. Joel.

JOEL:  Oh.

ROWAN:  I have not seen any of the Barbie movies. 

JOEL:  Oh, oh, Rowan.

ROWAN:  What—what? So is it—it—so Barbie is the toy? 

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  She's kind of famous for being a job hopper. Like she really loves to do every job under the sun. She's like, maybe I'll be a model. Maybe I'll be an astronaut. Maybe I'll be a doctor, who knows? So is that the—the vibe of the movies that like every movie she's a different version of herself?

JOEL:  Basically. Like I—I'm of the opinion that Barbie has like a form of ADHD in some way because like—

ROWAN:  Okay.

JOEL:  You can't really hop to different hobbies without having like that.

ROWAN:  It's a very ADHD thing. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

JOEL:  By the time they like, I truly don't know what people did before. Everything was at your fingertips, you could order online and delivered the next day. Because like if I—if I ordered something, and I had to wait like five weeks for it to come, I would have moved on from that potential hobby already. 

ROWAN:  And maybe that would have been a good thing. Like if I hadn't just bought maybe that would have stopped me buying like, gouache at 2 am, like through a TikTok, and then I'm like, have I used them more than three times? Probably not.

JOEL:  Exactly.

ROWAN:  Oh, gosh, I do relate to that. Because there are definitely a lot of hobbies where I've been like, oh yeah, I'll do this. And then it drives them like, oh, maybe, maybe not. But you are right. Like each Barbie, the film has like a different scenario. So in like, there's like a series called Barbie: Fairytopia, where she's basically like a fairy. She gets to be a mermaid in the second film. It's pretty fun. And then she gets these like rainbow wings and magic of the rainbow. And that is probably—

ROWAN:  That's pretty gay. 

JOEL:  Like the—yeah, the queerest film, I think. Because there were just all these different, like fairies that were like, okay, we'll give you a magic. And she's like, pride. So I think that was pretty awesome. But then there are ones where she like, runs a fashion show in Paris. There are ones where she's like, a princess and a pauper. Like, there was like this whole like section where they would basically just retell fairy tales and the Barbie way. And there were just definitely some of those homes where I was like, there's definitely some underlying queerness in this, and I don't know quite how, but I think my brain like when I was younger was figuring it out.

ROWAN:  So I know there's definitely a Barbie Nutcracker. 

JOEL:  Yes. 

ROWAN:  And the reason that I know that, is because I was around a—a friend's house who was a little bit high. And they essentially told me to—to go away to like, I had to leave the room because I looked like the Rat King from Barbie in the Nutcracker to them. They were like I was—I was just dancing around and they were like, no, no, I can't do this. You need to go, you look like the Rat King. I have not had the heart to look up what that character looks like. Because I know that I'm going to be—I know that might be the end of our friendship.

JOEL:  Oh, God. Maybe, potentially. I thought you were gonna go down like the aisle of like the Nutcracker himself. And how like a lot—It's kind of like the beauty in the beast effect where a lot of people prefer the beast to the actual like, look.

ROWAN:  They prefer the objects, the nutcrackers. Thanks to the contrast thing.

JOEL:  Because what he looked like after he kind of came like turned back into a regular human, was just not great. I prefer him as the Nutcracker.

ROWAN:  Incredible. Wait—hang on. I get it—I feel like you can't say that. And I can't not actually Google that to give my live reaction to the both versions of the Nutcracker.

JOEL:  Literally. 

ROWAN:  Okay, so in—when he's a nutcracker, he's got an incredible like dark black mustache, big baby blue eyes. He's got a very chiseled, um, it's not really a chin. It's his goatee. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  His goatee is very chiseled. Okay, if I now look up, Barbie in the Nutcracker. Like—

JOEL:  Transform?

ROWAN:  Human transformed? I don't really know how to—

JOEL:  That the Mouse King just came up on my uh, when I was like looking at the app as well. And I'm like, oh, no.

ROWAN:  Oh, okay. I've just seen the Nutcracker man transformed. Umm. And—and when you click on the picture, it takes you to the origin, which is a tweet that just says the king and barbie and the nutcracker was hotter in his nut-cracking form.

JOEL:  Yes.

ROWAN: about it for 21 years. 

JOEL:  People are total.

ROWAN:  I feel like—was this also a case of the like, what I believe that we're kind of now referring to within the community as the Pirates of the Caribbean effect, or the—or the Mummy effects, where it's like, oh, I really also quite fancy both Barbie in the Nutcracker. Or were you not quite at that stage when you were watching these?

JOEL:  Now thinking about it, I definitely think there was kind of like both kind of scenario where I was kind of seeing both Barbie in the Nutcracker. Because I definitely feel like I—was like I like both of you. But I don't know which one I prefer, at this point. And I was like, I was just like, it was kind of that experience of just kind of me like wow, like this is someone who is really smart and intelligent and can be whoever she wants to be. And this is a—

ROWAN:  This guy can crack nuts.

JOEL:  This guy can crack nuts. And you know, I think there's a somewhere. So, I was just like, damn, and then he transformed back and I was like, well, the decision was made for me, Barbie.

ROWAN:  Yeah. 

JOEL:  So.

ROWAN:  I like having that moment in your youth, you were like, I guess I'm straight after all. And there was like oh, wait, I got 

JOEL:  Let's go back into denial for like a few more years.

ROWAN:  Oh my God. Oh my God, incredible. And then I guess the—I've imagined that would be a level of campiness to the Barbie movies as well.

JOEL:  Oh yeah.

ROWAN:  That feels like a—an energy as well.

JOEL:  Like there was definitely like campiness, like with like the outfits and kind of like the scenarios that would occur. There are definitely like a few bits where it just—it's very much like a film kind of franchise that I feel like benefited a lot from delving into the campiness of it. And just like not taking itself too seriously but then being able to kind of explore like different themes and stuff.

ROWAN:  So how old were you when this was like a part of your life, or this is like a childhood thing or?

JOEL:  Yeah, definitely. I think I—when I like first started watching them it was—when my sister was like 5 or 6, I was probably like 9 or 10.

ROWAN:  Oh, okay, so this is like a youthful, youthful exploration—

JOEL:  Yeah, It was like—

ROWAN:  Of this.

JOEL:  Ooh. Like, what is this? What is this film franchise?

ROWAN:  What is happening here? What's going on here? Oh my gosh, amazing.

JOEL:  And I just look up like compilation clips on YouTube and be like, oh, like let's keep watching and see—see what other direct films that are out there.

ROWAN:  Have you delved back into like—have you rewatched them, like now that you're older?

JOEL:  I haven't watched like any like in—like recently, by I know during the lockdown, I watched—I rewatch Princess and the Pauper because everyone was doing that like Tiktok, whereas like, I'm just like you, you're just like me.

ROWAN:  Oh, that's what that's from. Okay, good to know.

JOEL:  And so I was like, I'll re-watch that one. But I definitely want to rewatch Fairytopia at some point. Because I know the animation style is going to like, from what we've seen like in the share with like animation, seeing animation back then I'm gonna be like, wow, like, I was enjoying this back pan.

ROWAN:  So I—I mean, amazing. I feel like that's in the—I wish I had some kind of umm image I need to work on the—the imagery-based formatting of this particular kind of episode. Like that's going into room 101. That's going into the vault I'm like, that's going into the rainbow tote bag of your—

JOEL:  My experience—

ROWAN:  True identity. Boop, there it goes. 

JOEL:  Just like get it from Tiger and just be like, okay, this is—

ROWAN:  It's really tight. I don't know whether anyone who's listening—anyone from the UK will definitely know this. And I guess because the Tigers are obviously in Europe, they might have the same thing, but there is a rainbow tote bag in tiger that is e—entirely like bought by gay teenagers. 

JOEL:  Yup.

ROWAN:  It's fantastic.

JOEL:  It's how you identify each other. It's like—

ROWAN: There is a rainbow tote bag. If not, hmm,

ROWAN: It is. It's a new fagging. Yeah. 100 percent. Amazing. So the Barbie—the Barbie.

JOEL:  The Barbie.

ROWAN:  The Barbie and the Barbie movies are the pick number one.

JOEL:  Yes.

ROWAN:  Shall we move on to pick number two?

JOEL:  Oh yeah, we can do that. Oh, this one I feel like a lot of bisexual people will relate to. So this is from a Disney film. And—

ROWAN:  Okay.

JOEL:  I first watched this Disney film when I was younger. It was part of like the Disney Princess kind of, I guess it kind of its part of the Disney princess.

ROWAN:  I feel like I know where this is going, but continue. 

JOEL:  And, it's probably my favorite Disney princess film out of all of them. Because I was just like, wow, like I am in love with like, not only kind of the story, but also the queer undertones that took place within this. And how basically the male lead is essentially bisexual. Because it's—it's a headcanon that's been widely accepted at this point. So when I first watched Mulan at I—I don't even know what age I was when I first watched Mulan, but I definitely watched it multiple times during my childhood. I think I just was attracted to both Mulan and Li Xiang that I was just like, there is something here. I think this was the bit where I was like, okay, but there—this is something that I need to start thinking about why I'm attracted to both of these people. And like not only was I attracted to Mulan, I was attracted to Mulan when they were dressed as a boy as well.

ROWAN:  As Ping.

JOEL:  So I was like, yeah, there is definitely something here.

ROWAN:  I feel like there's definitely that moment whereas you're growing up, you don't really necessarily think about the lo—like the logical ends to the scenario, where it's like, ah, and he seems to be into Mulan as a boy. And maybe we should delve into that a little bit. Like, I feel like that's a real moment of like, wait a minute. They laid it out, and I'm picking up what they were accidental, I guess putting down. Because there's definitely that one particular—well, there's that one moment in, I'll Make A Man Out Of You, when Mulan manages to like slap him, like get a hit on him. And he turns around, and he's like, I'm in love. 

JOEL:  Yeah, he's just like, ooh.

ROWAN:  Oh no, I'm—I'm, I'm scared and horny. And I—and—and there's no—there's no heterosexual explanation—

JOEL:  No.

ROWAN:  For that whatsoever.

JOEL:  Which like, you can't be like, oh, he must have known, it was like no. Like, that's literally the point, he didn't know at all. And so yeah, there's definitely some kind of like queer undertone to the entire film because there is just no like a straight explanation for Li Xiang, at all.

ROWAN:  No, completely. So is that—was that an example, like we were saying earlier about the, I want to be this person, I want to make out with these people. I want to like—this is like suggesting something that I could, like, absorb into my own self like that feels like it makes sense for me. Like, what was that connection to queerness for you?

JOEL:  I think Li Xiang was definitely one that I related to, in a way. Not only because I wanted to make out with him, but also the way that he was like questioning his attraction to like Mulan dressed as Ping. I was kind of like, oh, like, he's kind of questioning whether he's in love. And I'm like, kind of questioning my attraction to men. So I was like, okay, like this is— if someone else can, like do this, I can do that too. And I think because I was seeing it through this film, I was like, okay, I'm also attracted to Li Xiang, and I'm also attracted to Mulan. And I'm also attracted to Mulan dressed as Ping. So I was like, I need to kind of figure out, kind of what this means for me, and how I feel about that.

ROWAN:  I love that. If we think about this movie, if this movie was a movie where they had deliberately wanted to tell like a story of bisexuality in the way that I think they think of most of this—they don't necessarily—I think Disney doesn't necessarily think of most of their like princess movies as stories of heterosexuality, but that is what they are. 

JOEL:  Yeah, true. 

ROWAN:  What would you have changed? Like, how would you have—how would you have like made that more central? Or do you feel like at this point, it just this, like, it's just so in the subtext to it

JOEL:  I think at the mo— at like, as it is, it is pretty much in the subtext because you can't deny the fact that Li Xiang was attracted to what he was deceiving at the time as Mulan, as a man. And, like Mulan slowly grew attracted to Li Xiang. But I feel like the—it's so ingrained in the film at this point that it's like, there's no denying that that took place. If I were to, like, change anything and make it like more apparent, I don't know, maybe like Mulan could go on, like a journey of self-discovery, like herself. But I think with Li Xiang's character, I think it's just hard to like disassociate the bisexuality from it.

ROWAN:  I mean, if you think about the song that Mulan sings, where she's like, when will my reflection show who I am inside? I'm like, that seems pretty nonbinary to me.

JOEL:  Yaas.

ROWAN:  That seems pretty like, that feels like there's a lot of the associations with the idea of like, hey, who—when will it show who I am inside, and then I go off to wardress as a man. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

JOEL:  Yeah, does something specific, like a specific look, by its very definition, just like

ROWAN:  But then that like, complication of like, what does it even mean to show non-binaryness on the outside? Because it's by definition, not.

JOEL:  Yeah, definitely.

ROWAN:  Something specific, like a specific look, but it's by definition.

JOEL:  It's just like—Mulan, exploring kind of, like a different, like, gendered version of—or non-gendered version of herself, was definitely very interesting. And like, the way that she had to kind of become accustomed to like a different scenario and like, different roles and different, and way of life, essentially. But you could tell that she was a lot happier, being where she was like, despite like, the war going on, and like the scariness of that, she was free in a way.

ROWAN:  I think that also like thinking about it, there was—they—Mulan has these scenes of like, the ultra-feminine and the ultra-masculine, like ideals.

JOEL:  Yes.

ROWAN:  Where she in both of those camps, like doesn't fit in. Like doing the matchmaker scene at the beginning. And all of these like perfect girls who are like, and her family who are really excited about this tradition, who are like feel very sort of satisfied with that whole process, with like that connection to your like mother and your grandmother coming in and helping. And for me, like it's like I—oh, God, like I don't fit in here. But then similarly, there are all of the scenes within the camp were not just the idea of like being strong and fighting, but like talking about women in a particular way—

JOEL:  Yes.

ROWAN:  Or wanting a wife, like there are all of these—these kinds of two different extremes that neither of them she really fits into. So I think that's also, the more I think about this movie, the more I'm like, God, it's great as hell, like, this is just—it's so, like if you'd have told me, I saw a TikTok the other day, that was about a fake documentary that someone had made about how the Goofy Movie was actually an attempt to make the blackest like children's cartoon movie that they could. Because of like all of the references, and it was like, it's hysterical, because it's like, you sort of accidentally made this thing that so many people have interpreted as like, very clearly a black movie. 

JOEL:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  And then it's kind of like almost the same with Mulan, you can have a fake documentary of someone being like, okay, so we've got to make the queerest possible like the movie, where it's like this—this  bitch is bisexual. This one's non-binary. They're figuring it all out. They're going for—they're staying for dinner. They're staying forever. And I'm like, yeah, I believe it.

JOEL:  It'd be like the office scenario. It's like, oh, my God, it's happening. And everyone's just like freaking out and trying to like, piece everything together. And they're like, we need bisexually shot and non-binary Mulan. Let's go, and everyone's like, let's go, go, go.

ROWAN:  It's just, it's just true—It's simply the truth. 

JOEL:  Oh yeah.

ROWAN:  And I think if anyone can't see it, open your eyes people. 

JOEL:  Like there are definitely a lot of videos on it, like somewhere that you can and just rewatch it. Like, if you rewatch it with that mindset. I definitely feel like you'll be able to see it more apparent,

ROWAN:  You'll be picking up on it in no time.

JOEL:  Oh, yeah, definitely. 

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ROWAN:  So dear listener, Jazza is on a secret campaign, has been on a secret campaign for a while, actually. For us to cover queer erotica as a genre on the podcast. Like that is a thing that they really have been pushing. But you know, until I finally give in, you should check out our sponsor Dipsea, which is an app with hundreds of stories designed by and for women that are yes queer inclusive with lesbian, bi trans and non-binary short stories, in all of the sexy genres that I am told that you non-asexual people are into. Basically, you get immersive soundscapes, talented voice actors, and steamy scenarios at your fingertips, no pun intended. There is also new content released each week so you can listen to your favorites again, or find something new. That really is something for everyone because they have something for me. Sleep stories, wellness sessions, and a nice relaxing nature soundscape. Very much more my speed and I very much enjoyed it as someone who likes to listen to things as she nods off. So give Dipsea a try to see if it's your new go-to place for spicing up your me time, exploring your fantasy to your partner, or getting off to sleep with a comforting sound of a rainy woodland. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com/queermovie. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D I  P S EAstories.com/queermovie. We would also like to thank Squarespace for sponsoring this podcast. Look at us two sponsors in one podcast going up in the world. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-one place to do just that. You can use it to build a site, set up an online shop, or connect with your audience. So we use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website, but I also used it to make my own website. And I have never been relaxed a day in my life. So I have a ton of projects in social media platforms spread all over the internet that I wanted to include and talk about it like on this page. Squarespace lets you not only link to your social media but also connect it so you can display posts from your social profiles on your site. There are you know, analytics and insights that can help you grow your brand. If you need to figure out where are you getting your site visits from, or where are the sales coming from. Or keywords that is used to find you. They also have really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. I am very much not a techy person. So I found the very easy to use, like designing function and absolute lifesaver, including making sure the website doesn't look absolute trash on mobile. Because turns out that sometimes when you build a website on your computer, and then you go on to mobile, it's real bad. And this was absolutely not the case with Squarespace. So check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code queer movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And before we dive right into it, I just want to let you know this Saturday is Small Business Saturday. And since it is Small Business Saturday, we would ask you to maybe consider supporting your friendly local podcast collective, that is Multitude the amazing collective that we are a part of. It is a small business that helps creators make a living in the modern media landscape which is no mean feat. And for $5 a month, you get the weekly friendly debate podcast Head Heart Gut, which I have been on and so as Jazza multiple times, it is so much fun and very unhinged. So perfect for if you are enjoying this—this podcast that we do. You also get access to our pen pal exchange, monthly live events with the host of the different Multitude podcasts, and much more. Your dollar goes further when you support indie creators like Multitude, our Queer Movie podcast, and all the rest of the amazing podcast hosts that make up this brilliant little collective. So whether you spread the word or spread the love with your dollars, shop more and support Multitude this Small Business Saturday. Okay, back to Joel. 

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ROWAN:  Okay, so Mulan also going in the rainbow tote bag from Tiger. 

JOEL:  Let's go.

ROWAN:  How about number three?

JOEL:  Okay, this one actually alludes to um, a reference he made with Pirates of the Caribbean. But when I first watched like the first season of Heartstopper, and we saw Nick kind of watching Elizabeth Swann and Will Turner in Pirates of the Caribbean, it kind of unlocked a memory within me where I was like, oh my god, I was attracted to both Orlando Bloom and Keira Knightley, whilst they were doing all the Pirates of the Caribbean films. And I didn't realize like that until I watched that first season. And I was like, damn, no wonder I loved seeing them on the screen so much.

ROWAN:  That's so interesting. I mean, like I so—I fully had a picture of Will Turner. And of actually. 

JOEL:  Oh, yaas.

ROWAN:  on my wall. Like even though I am a lesbian, and fundamentally didn't actually find either of them attractive. I think it was just like the idea of the things you were meant to find attractive at the time. I think mainly, it was just like, these are cool characters. Like these are fun, cool characters. But yeah, it was Elizabeth Swann. And like, as I've gotten older, I think I've like appreciated, not just you know, Elizabeth Swann for her incredible good looks.

JOEL:  True.

ROWAN:  But also the fact that in those movies, she is like the central character who just doesn't get enough—Doesn't get enough credit.

JOEL:  Yeah, True. Like the whole like, scenario with Elizabeth Turner, just like, she is that— she just been thrust from her world into the pirate world. And it's like, well, you know, she kind of grows up a lot throughout the like—throughout. And it's just like you can't take that away from her like she is a formidable person like a pirate queen.

ROWAN:  She truly is the Pirate King.

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  I just a— I like I always just think about that scene in the first movie where she's been like, no warning, ripped from her bed like, taken hostage, got onto this ship. And then she takes the pirate medallion. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  And she essentially likes hangs—it's the same way she hangs over the side of the ship. And she's like, essentially playing like a game of bluff with this, like, terrifying pirate captain on the ship in which he has no power. And she bluffs with him, where she's like if I'll give you this if you let me go.

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  He's like, oh, I don't even need that. Like, you think that's important to me. And she goes as if she's gonna let it drop into the ocean. And all the pirates are like, no, and she just smiles like, oh, I fucking have you, like this is—and I think that those moments of, like the courage of like, where she goes, she like has no weapon, but she's like, trying to rip us off the wall. She's like, using the bedpan full of coals. Like, she's it—she has this ingenuity to her.

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Like all this stuff. And I think that was also something that was really exciting to see rather than just being either the like, she's so beautiful and sweet. And like dimia or the like, opposite where it's like, she's so sassy. And she—she's like, not taking shit from the boy. And like all of that kind of stuff. And I'm like, oh, it's like a nice in-between. It didn't feel like too forced.

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  So yeah, no, but I can absolutely see why both of them were bi-panicked. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:   For you.

JOEL:  Like, thi—like hearing about what you're saying—

ROWAN:  Respectively.

JOEL:  True. I'm like hearing what you're saying about like Elizabeth Swann, it kind of reminds the same what we were speaking about Mulan, where it was like, these two like kind of hyper-masculine, like hyper-feminine kind of scenarios. And they both just fit somewhere in between which kind of I feel like fits into like the gender fluidity gender, kind of non-binaryness of it, or like, you can fit somewhere on the spectrum or outside of the spectrum, if like, you're just feeling like it doesn't fit you. And I think they're both examples of like, someone finding their way within the spectrum and someone being like, okay, I'm just gonna go away from this.

ROWAN:  I also really liked—like, kind of conversely, with Will Turner's character. He has these elements of masculinity, which are like him being a sword fighter and like being a blacksmith and all this kind of stuff. But he isn't the typical idea of like the hulking muscular blacksmith.

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Like Witcher-style vibes of like Henry Cavill bodybuilder, and he has this real like sense of softness and romance to him, in a lot—like he I feel like if you were to add up the words that he says, like in this movie, around 30 to 50% of them will just be him going, Elizabeth.

JOEL:  Elizabeth.

ROWAN:  Elizabeth.

JOEL:  Elizabeth. 

ROWAN:  Because he's clumsy like he—I think he like maybe re—gets to rescue someone once, and then every other time it's her rescuing him. Or just like going off to him or trying to figure stuff out. And he's just that like, Elizabeth. And I appreciate that dynamic.

JOEL:  Or he just like Davy Jones's Locker? Davy Jones's locker?

ROWAN:  Father?

JOEL:  Father.

ROWAN:  Dad.

JOEL:  I will stay with you.

ROWAN:  Dad, why are you a starfish? Spoilers for the—spoilers on Pirates of the Caribbean. His father is in fact, Patrick from SpongeBob.

JOEL:  I was literally about to make that joke.

ROWAN:  We're the same. We're Simply on the same wavelength.

JOEL:  Honestly. 

ROWAN:  I love that. And I love the fact that there are these moments of queer childhoods or queer growing up, where you don't necessarily clock it what it actually is. Because you're— I mean, I don't know whether this is kind of how it works for you. But I feel like we're so not shown the mold or the model for like, what that kind of would look like for us, like we're shown the girls like giddy on their bed, like kicking their heels about a boy ringing them on the phone. Like twirling the cord in their fingers or guys like joking around with each other about a girl. Like all these kinds of scenarios that we see in fiction, and when you don't quite fit into that, sometimes it is difficult to recognize, like what you are feeling.

JOEL:  Yeah, it's kind of alienating in a way because it's just like, oh, I'm not feeling like this group of people should feel. I'm not feeling like how that group of people should feel. So where do I fit in? Like, where do I lie on the boundaries? And like it is scary sometimes like having to kind of figure that out for yourself, but it's also really liberating once you've kind of found that and like figured it out, because then you're just like, oh, I can see where I lie now and like it's okay to be not like other people. Because I'm myself, and like once you've like accepted that and like celebrated that, then you'll feel better about it.

ROWAN:  For you like with your—you—you've got, within the identity that we were talking about earlier, right? We've got bisexual, we've got non-binary. For you did they come,  did that realization comes like a whole package? Or was it like I figured out one thing and then I kind of figured out another, or I thought it was one thing like ho—how did that work for you?

JOEL:  It was definitely like my sexuality first. Like I knew I was—like I slowly realized I was attracted to men. And then I was kind of like doubting my attraction to like women and other genders. And I was just like, I, like, am I just gay? And then I kind of realized that like, no, I am like bisexual. And I don't need to kind of, like force myself into like, one particular pocket. I can just be bisexual. And so that was like when I came out as bisexual, I was like, yay, like, that's me. And then there was just like gender in the back corner being like, you're not done, not yet.And so, and like, there was just like this lingering, kind of like the feeling of like, people like referring to me as a man. And I was like, oh, I don't really like that word for me. And it wasn't until like, I think 2020-2021, where I was just kind of like, okay, I need to stop figuring this out properly. Because otherwise, if people keep referring to me as something that I'm not comfortable with, I'm just gonna be unhappy. And so I think—I don't know what it was specifically, but I think I read a book called All Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson, and who's also non-binary. And I think it was reading that, and then just like doing like, like watching a lot of like videos about people and their experience that I was like, oh, I think I fit into this kind of, like mold, like, not mold specifically. But like, I fit into this kind of like, a term that and I feel comfortable with that term. And I think if the mold doesn't fit, make your own mold. So.

ROWAN:  I mean, that's really interesting, right? The— the things that you were referencing just then are all like real life, people's experiences, right? So it's like it is a book, but it's like that, that because of that kind of a memoir. 

JOEL:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  Right from George. And then like, the talking about people's videos, do you feel like you've ever seen a character or a movie, or something, which isn't literally someone talking about their own life? 

JOEL:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  Or do you think we're not quite there yet, with that kind of, like representation?

JOEL:  I think we're getting there, like, I think in recent years with like, specifically, like TV shows, we've definitely like increased, like the queer experience. And like, the amount of like Glee, like, despite, like the writing in some of the seasons, that was explicitly queer. And like, there were a lot of queer characters that I worked felt like I related to like, Santana was probably my favorite character. Yeah, I was just like, this is great. But I feel like, in terms of trying to get like, specifically bisexual representation, it was always quite tough because there would be a character who was attracted to women, and then they'd like to start having an attraction towards men. And then they'd be like, oh, are you gay now? or, like, are you just— have you like flipped the switch? And it's just like, no, you can like, like, both and more. And it was hard to kind of find the like, scenarios where like, they explicitly refer to themselves as bisexual. And in terms of like, non-binary representation. I—I don't think I was like, I don't think I've really like watched anything with like an explicitly like non-binary character in. Until I tried to think it was their husband. Because there might be something, but I might be forgetting it. But there's definitely been like, I think we are improving it, especially with like, more like gender nonconforming, like actors getting into, like film and TV now. I think there's definitely going to be an explosion. We're just seeing like the gunpowder being laid.

ROWAN:  Yeah, there's definitely I think, a strong contingent of non-binary characters, but they are like aliens or robots or, like things that don't have a gender. Not because they've necessarily decided to be non-binary, but just because of the nature of their like species, so there, you know, who they are is non-binary. So I think it's like, trying to—trying to get some human. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  Some human rep would be fun. I think.

JOEL:  I think like the first human rep, I saw of like a non-binary character, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, was Stevonnie from Steven Universe, who was like a fusion of Steven and Connie, like two best friends, later, like something more, but that was probably like when they fused and like Stevonnie like they/them. I was like, wow, like, wow, I love that.

ROWAN:  I'm gonna tell you a character that you absolutely have just forgotten, which is Jim in our 

JOEL:  Oh my gosh, yes. Je—oh my God.

ROWAN:  How could you? A pirate as well?

JOEL:  I'm so sorry. I know we were literally just on pirates. Like I'm so sorry, Jim. I failed you, but yeah, Jim as well. Like when they run the show, and I was watching it, I was like, Jim, I was like, I—I root for you, Jim I root for you. And like yeah, I think especially with like shows like Our Flag Means Death, Heartstopper, Young Royals. Although I haven't watched that yet, but everyone's trying to get me to watch it. And I'm like, I will. I definitely think there's more queer media coming. And I definitely think that will translate more into like the film space eventually. Like we are seeing more queer films coming out. And it's,—it's great because like, although I didn't have this during my childhood, there are children right now who are going to have this during their childhood. And it's amazing because there's definitely then a sign of progress being made.

ROWAN:  So thank you for that little detour into your psyche. I think that you have, you have one more thing that made me non-binary bisexual to—to give to us to give to the listeners and to me.

JOEL:  This one that was a film where I was like, I haven't really experienced kind of like a lot of the media that I consumed. And a lot of the characters that I've mentioned so far were white. And so trying to find like a black queer character. I was like, oh, like that—that person, like much. But then I—I  think it was when Moonlight came out and—I think it was like 20—I think I want to say 2016 or 2018, that moonlight came out. But when that film came out, it was an experience that I don't think is going to be the same when I come to rewatch it. Because I haven't watched it since like, the very first time I watched it. But like watching that film was such like a defining experience for me where I was like, black queer media. And I didn't know—there was just something about that film that like affected me in such a way that I was just like, a lot of my experiences within like queer spaces have often been, like, very accepting. But then also sometimes it's kind of a lack of intersectionality. So to see it in this film was very like, affirming to me.

ROWAN:  And I think as well to see it in a film that was so celebrated, and like appreciated as well, because there's always like when we talk about queer stuff, and like more queer movies, there's always been this like, slightly badly made, like budget, like indie stuff that you have, like a real affection for because it was like all that was available, especially when I was kind of growing up. And you would like, go to like peccadillo pictures and buy their DVDs that you'd like, couldn't get in mainstream shops, or like HMV, or whatever. And, like, watch these movies where you're like, this is objectively just bad. And so I think it's like, both having that, oh, I'm being seen, but also this element of like, but it's also like a stunning movie.

JOEL:  Oh yeah.

ROWAN:  Absolutely like one of the best movies of all time, like truly incredible on like, every level. And it's got representation, and it's been appreciated, and like held up in canon. And it was like, had a wide enough release that you could like, actually see it and not have to do it, like in the shadows, in a secret, like—

JOEL:  Literally like— 

ROWAN:  Pirated version like. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. I mean, like, so I—I have watched that movie a number of times. And I—I feel like you said—you were saying you wouldn't necessarily have the same experience, um, I—I would say fear not, there is not a bad thing about that movie, to be honest. Um, you.

JOEL:  True. 

ROWAN:  It is the chef's frickin kiss. I mean, do you feel like you have had to, like actively search for that kind of media? Is that something that is just not necessarily as—I guess, as mainstream, or it's easy to find as either like white queer media or just, you know, black non-queer media I guess? 

JOEL:  Yeah, I think initially, it was very tough, because it was kind of like, there wasn't a lot of it. And if there was, like a black queer character, there will always just reduce to like the love interest in a film. So it was kind of like, oh, here we have a white protagonist. And then we have the black love interest. And it was weird in a way because they were never treated as a main characters, they were basically treated as like an accessory to the main character. And I was like, I like whilst I could enjoy the film, there was just something underlying that I was like, I don't know how I feel about that. But to then kind of view more media with like Moonlight and like, in a way Thor Ragnarok with a Valkyrie, like just to see like more like queer people of color, kind of taking center stage, taking kind of like protagonist or like powerful roles within like the stories. it very much became easier for me to find this kind of like media and just seeing like, it spread across like not only film, but like TV, and books. It was—it's been amazing to kind of finally got, like that representation that I wish I had when I was younger. But now it's kind of like healing that inner child in a way where I can just consume all the media now. And it's been great. I definitely have a more optimistic outlook when it comes to the future of film and TV now because like, I don't have to search as thoroughly as I had to do before.

ROWAN:  I mean, do you feel like obviously you—we've—were kind of talking just because you know, it's the Queer Movie Podcast, but mainly movies and sometimes TV, but do you think that books are further ahead in this regard? Or do you think it's still kind of the same in all of these creative industries?

JOEL:  I feel like it's a similar like kind of wave. I think books are slightly ahead. But I think because sometimes books don't have a wider reach as like film and TV does. I feel like the effect books might have on isn't as apparent. But I think there's definitely like a wider space with books in terms of like queerness. And because there's like so many different kinds of like, ways to, like, get your story out there. I think it definitely helps to like have those books, and like a lot of books do get adapted into TV and film. So it's like books sometimes act as a starting point to like find the audience that would be interested in that kind of like adaptation that then spreads to like a wider audience. I mean, we've seen it with Heartstopper. We've seen it with—I think there was that there was a new adaptation recently that was on Netflix. I think it was like adapting like Half Bad by Sally Green.

ROWAN: It's the bastard son in the devil himself. 

JOEL:  Yes. Didn't necessarily like how that series ended. But there is bad example to have. But yeah, there's definitely like, more. And I think books definitely help down the line with like, film and TV.

ROWAN:  What are you looking for next? Like, what is—what are you hoping that like, if I was to—if there was someone who was growing up now, and you know, I had them on—I had them on the podcast in 10 years. Will still be older, decrepit will still be going um, like, what would you hope that they will be able to say like, oh, when I was like, growing up in like, 2022, this is what I like really felt connected to.

JOEL:  Yeah, I—I guess I would hope that there's like more black queer characters like a center stage of like films and TV. And I definitely hope that more of those kinds of books are adapted, and like more of those stories are like told. I definitely hope there are more non-binary like characters in like films, and like romance, and like, fantasy. I think like, the more genres like people are in, I think it would just be amazing because trying to like reduce a certain identity to a certain genre isn't really like as progressive, I think. So I feel like having those characters be who they are, but not make it like the center focus, just a like a casual part of it. Because I think a lot of people are like, Oh, don't shove it in my face. But it's literally just a queer character existing in a world. And it's just like, has it shoving it in your face, though, or you just like, personally uncomfortable with it. So I think just having like queer characters exist in like, every form of media, and just someone being like, I did not have to, like, go far to find, like something that represents me. I think that would be my personal kind of like, hope.

ROWAN:  And I guess how did—so— I guess that that idea of someone just being in the media, kind of ties into sometimes when that isn't the case, like sometimes when someone is calling attention to their identity, it's kind of acting as a lesson for the straight and the cis people in the audience like, by the way, this is what non-binary is. 

JOEL:  Yeah. 

ROWAN:  And I suppose the further we get into representation, where it's just, there's more of it, the less the characters will need to like explain their existence to everyone so that no one's being like, but that—they're saying they/them. I'm so confused. 

JOEL:  Yeah. I definitely think like more exposure. It basically would allow people to not have to be like, oh, here's an introduction to this character and everything you need to know about, like, their identity. It's just kind of like, okay, they are a bisexual non-binary person. Okay, under the story.

ROWAN:  Yeah.

JOEL:  And so it's just like, I think like you said, If there's more than there becomes less of a need to kind of be a lesson.

ROWAN:  Okay, so you've given me four. Any other things that you want to mention?

JOEL:  Oh, okay. So you mentioned Legolas earlier with like Orlando Bloom

ROWAN:  I did.

JOEL:  There's a similar pairing, like not pairing, but like a similar dynamic that I kind of had with Legolas and because both—both of them were also something to me. Like I think it's always like I kind of find one like male character to kind of cling on too. A one female character to cling on to pair, like fantasy or kind of explorative film and I'm just like. uh you too are like the people that I will cling on to and be attracted to, thank you. But yeah, I think—but Lord of The Rings definitely had a lot of hot characters, and—

ROWAN:  It did. Aragon opening his doors, uh incredible.

JOEL:  So I definitely feel like both the rings, gave me a lot—uh informed a lot of like my attraction to people which thank you. I will be immensely thankful.

ROWAN:  I think as well that was—I mean the fact that that was just a film with just so, so many laws, so many dudes. 

JOEL:  Yeah.

ROWAN:  So many white dudes. 

JOEL:  True.

ROWAN:  But like it truly gave you the run of them. It truly was like would you—here's—here's your menu. Would you like rugged Outlander style, like a king in disguise? Would you like a sweet farmer boy who just wants to get back to his lady, love Rosie? Would you like Why Died Little Frodo, who's just gonna—he's gonna just be a brave little boy? Like, would you like the ethereal, like an elf who just casually walks across the snow while everyone charges? Like it really was giving you the full range of whiteboy for you to decide.

JOEL:  True.

ROWAN:  Are you attracted to any of them? Maybe you should think about that, at that point.

JOEL:  It's like, what is your type figure out by watching Lord of the Rings?

ROWAN:  Which one of the fellowships is your type?

JOEL:  There's probably a quiz somewhere.

ROWAN:  Truly. And then I guess Galadriel is just uh, an extremely powerful and beautiful immortal psyche.

JOEL:  Yeah. I mean, basically like, kind of like Barbie's like fantasy cousin, in a way, Where she's just like, I am beautiful. I'm powerful. I can be whatever I want to be. And Barbies, like, yes, I am Galadriel, but in a different way.

ROWAN:  I want a hot take.

JOEL:  Oh.

ROWAN:  Barbie, Lord of the Rings. When— when—is it coming? 

JOEL:  Oh.

ROWAN:  When is it going to happen?

JOEL:  I would probably. I would want to see Ken as um. Ken would probably have to be like Frodo or some wires. But then if Barbie then plays Frodo, I'm like Barbie in a—in a different kind of role.

ROWAN:  Hmm. like what would Barbie, is Barbie, Gandalf. Like, where's this situation? Incredible. And then like, that's great, because then she can like rise again, is like Barbie the and like, have a whole new outfit. 

JOEL:  Like the white—the white Christmas dress.

ROWAN:  Oh, it's all coming together.

JOEL:  It's like—

ROWAN:  Amazon-like call us. You've got the rights, still Lord of the Rings now, right? Like you have the right, call us.

JOEL:  We've got some Legolas, Lord of the Rings turns into Barbie, Lord of the Rings. 

ROWAN:  Oh, that's very—just all the crossovers, it just makes sense. 

JOEL:  Exactly.

ROWAN:  Truly. Amazing. What a journey you have bought us on today, Joel. We've gone all the way from like Barbie through to Lord of the Rings, through to Barbie Lord of the Rings. Absolutely chef's kiss. I always like with these episodes to see the crossover that people have. I think that there's definitely a lot of media that has strong queer energy, not necessarily from the media itself, but just from everyone just deciding, just claiming it as our own when we didn't have any alternatives. And I imagine that even as we continue to have, like actual queer media, we'll still be stealing it from the straights. We'll still be being like nothing is safe from us. 

JOEL:  Oh, definitely. We're like we're claiming this Rosoff and you can't say anything about it. Sorry.

ROWAN:  Truly. So I just want to say thank you so much for joining us. If people wanted to find you if they've listened to your unhinge rantings about these stunning pieces of media. Where—where can they find you? 

JOEL:  Oh, well, if you want to hear more of my unhinged and chaotic thoughts, I'm on YouTube at Fictional Fates. Instagram, the same handle. Twitter, at Joel Rochesterr, with two R's on the end. And yeah, that's basically everything.

ROWAN:  Amazing. And I hope all of you who are listening are having a very queer day. 

JOEL:  Yes. 

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ROWAN:: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, then, like I said at the beginning, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join our Queer Movie Club, where we do watch along on our private Discord each month. But that is the bare minimum of things you can get. At other levels, you can also get our movie recommendation lists and a monthly newsletter with a curation of all of the gay stuff that we find on the internet. And we would like to as part of this thanks once again, Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon rainbow parent. We are so happy to have your support and we wanted to thank you once again. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode. I've been around LS, we're edited by Julia Schifini, and a part of the Multitude collective. Find more of their amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much and you will hear from us very soon.

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