Spiritual Misfits Podcast

I presume many of you, like me, are feeling a deep swirl of emotions coming out of a week where we have witnessed the re-election of Trump. 

Honestly it feels so baffling to me that someone can so blatantly be a convicted felon, a misogynist, an authoritarian, completely void of compassion and empathy for vulnerable people…and with all this and so much more on full display and public record… still be worshipped and adored and actively chosen by a majority of voters. 

And one of the most disturbing realities is how many white Evangelical Christians unashamedly throw their support and indeed their votes behind this man. 

There’s a strong argument to be made that Evangelical support for Trump in 2016 has been one of the major catalysts for people deconstructing faith and leaving the institutional church. The #exvangelical movement can largely be traced back to that election.

White Evangelicals aren’t solely responsible for Trump — and why he had such a clear majority of support in this election is beyond my ability or this podcast’s ability to answer. And yet, this disturbing confluence of politics and religion and the questions it raises has obviously been very real and personal for many of us. 

And so this week I actually wanted to replay an earlier podcast conversation from a couple years back now, with David Gushee (that I think remains very relevant).   

David has been one of the voices that has helped me understand the history that led to what American Evangelicalism is today. He has also been a strong advocate for defending democracy — and my second of two interviews with him was discussing his book ‘Defending Democracy from its Christian Enemies’. You may want to go back and listen to that though I understand if the wound feels too fresh right now (though of course the need to defend democracy only increases after this election result). 

But I actually wanted to revisit my first conversation with David, in which we mainly spoke about his book ‘After Evangelicalism’ which asks where do you go when you’ve seen the ugliest manifestations of Evangelical Christianity and want none of that…but you still want a faith that makes sense and approaches the world in ethical, compassionate, just ways? David speaks so well about this.

I’m reminded this week — as I often am — that the most important choice is not between theism or atheism. Between religious or non-religious. Christian or not Christian. The choice is what kind of Christian will I be? What kind of human will I be? What kind of neighbour will I be? Evil arrives under the guise of many labels. So too does love. 

And when we fail to see love through the most powerful leaders in this world — we might want to throw our hands up in despair. Yet, I think it only becomes more essential that we choose the alternate reality — the truer reality — of self-giving love lived out in our lives and neighbourhoods

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Tim Winton gave the Centre for Public Christianity’s 2024 Richard Johnson lecture. Will and his brother Joel went along. In this conversation they discuss Tim’s powerful words on toxic positivity, climate crisis, and the prophetic voices of young, environmental activists crying out for change. 

Read an excerpt from Tim’s lecture here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/27/if-fossil-fuel-dependency-is-a-global-addiction-climate-activists-are-prophets-trying-to-save-us-from-our-stupor?CMP=share_btn_url 

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Anna Robinson is a regular co-host on Nomad podcast, and the founder of LiveLight|DwellDeep. She describes herself as "a contemplative, deeply drawn to the mystics and misfits, those who feel at home in the wilderness."

In this conversation, Will and Anna explore the themes of wonder, contemplative spirituality, and the journey of rediscovering a deeper connection with the divine. They discuss the importance of nurturing a sense of awe in children, the transformative power of contemplative practices, and the significance of embracing doubt and mystery in spiritual journeys. Anna shares her personal experiences with various spiritual practices and the influence of mentors in her life, highlighting the need for a holistic approach to spirituality that integrates daily life with moments of reflection and connection to nature. 

This episode was produced by Meeting Ground and edited by Phil McNab.

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In this episode Sally Longley shares her journey from a belief in violence to embracing pacifism and Ignatian spirituality. Sally shares her experiences in South Africa during apartheid, her theological studies, and the transformative power of silence and imagination in spiritual practice. The conversation delves into the complexities of nonviolence, the role of anger and grief, and the importance of silence in modern life, emphasizing that true transformation often requires confronting uncomfortable truths. In this conversation, Will Small and Sally explore the significance of rest, silence, and contemplative practices in a chaotic world. They discuss the essential nature of patience in love, the importance of creating inclusive communities, and the role of spiritual direction in navigating crises of faith. Sally emphasizes the power of deep listening and the need for spaces where individuals can come as they are, fostering a sense of belonging and connection.

Connect more with Sally's work here: https://www.longley.com.au/

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Jack Turner joins Will and Mitch at the virtual pub to discuss Christianity and political engagement. 

Do Christians typically care more about meeting the needs of the poor than asking why they're poor in the first place? 

Was Jesus a communist? 

Should we be capitalists? Socialists? Something else-ists?

Crack a drink and join us as we throw around ideas, and occasionally say something wise between the banter.

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Hello fellow misfits, friends, humans of all kinds!
 
An absolutely delightful conversation awaits you with Scott Erickson. He’s a painter, author, performance speaker. His instagram bio says ‘Curator of awesomeness’. And I think that’s absolutely accurate. We had a great chat about Scott's creative process, the role of visual art In forming how we see the world and the paradoxical nature of life, creativity and spirituality.

TWO OTHER GREAT THINGS TO TELL YOU ABOUT:

1. The Spiritual Misfits Survival Guide recently launched! A free set of videos, podcast episodes, suggested practices and more available on our website, spiritualmisfits.com.au. Great for your own process, also great for discussing with friends.

2. Future Church Conference tickets are live! January 28th next year. A day of misfits and fringe dwellers asking what kind of Church would we actually want to stick around for, advocate for, work for? And how do we make that happen? You can get an exclusive Spiritual Misfits discount right now. $10 off if you book a ticket using the discount code SPIRITUALMISFITS.

Connect more with Scott Erickson: https://www.scottericksonart.com/
Follow Scott on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/scottthepainter/

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Mitch, Hannah and Will crack a drink and throw around various questions from Spiritual Misfits listeners (submitted in the Facebook group)

Questions/topics discussed include: 

Is there a role for hedonism and pleasure in connecting us with the divine?

Who is responsible for creating safety within a community? 

What place should lament have in faith...and when does it turn into wallowing?

Do church-based organisations have double-standards when it comes to supporting LGBTQI+ people?

Can you talk about the 'gospel' without using any Christianise?  

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Scott Parker comes on the podcast to discuss 'Hillsong Boy': a theatrical exploration of the highs and lows of growing up queer in a megachurch, based on Scott’s real life. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Jason John is a fascinating human being with a very interesting story doing very interesting things. He’s an ordained minister in the Uniting Church, has a PhD in zoology and is, amongst other things, a ‘forest chaplain.’

In this conversation we talk about evolution, sexual ethics, eco-faith communities and poetry.

At the end of this episode Jason shares a couple of his poems — which in my opinion are brilliant. One of the poems in particular uses strong language that you may not want to listen to with kids around. Or if you’re the kind of person who potentially may be offended by some strong language, you’re also welcome to not listen to it. In my opinion it is an excellent piece of art, that provokes some great questions around language and offence and patriarchy and divinity, and we do unpack some of that briefly afterwards.

That poem starts at around 53 minutes. Everything before then is great if you want to listen that far and then tap out. Of course, you’re also welcome to skip straight to the juicy bit if you are now desperate to hear strong language.

In our conversation we talk about one of Jason’s books, called ‘Christian Sex Today’, which Jason has very generously made free for listeners of the pod. What a top guy! Listen to the episode, download his book and then send him a warm message of gratitude.

Learn more about Jason and his work: https://ecofaith.org/

Get Jason’s book ‘Christian Sex Today’ FREE!
https://ecofaith.org/freebies
Password: SpiritualMisfits

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Amy Kenny, author of 'My Body Is Not A Prayer Request,' joins Will for a discussion about disability justice and ableism in the church. She shares her experiences of being prayed over for her disability to be erased and the harmful treatment she received in the church. Amy emphasizes the importance of recognizing the image of God in disabled bodies and reframing our understanding of healing and curing. She challenges the ableist language, assumptions, and practices that exist in churches and calls for a more inclusive and holistic approach to faith. The conversation explores the themes of inclusivity, disability in scripture, and creating communities that fully receive the gifts of all members. Amy Kenny shares her journey of accepting and being proud of her disabled identity and how her theology has evolved to embrace disability. She emphasizes the need to move beyond tolerance and charity towards celebrating and learning from disabled individuals. Amy also discusses the importance of unlearning ableism, creating cultures of access, and developing a community care network for disabled members. The conversation concludes with final thoughts for both disabled and non-disabled listeners.

Amy's website: https://amy-kenny.com/

Amy's book: 'My Body is not a Prayer Request'

Keywords
disability justice, ableism, church, disabled bodies, healing, curing, image of God, inclusive faith, inclusivity, disability, scripture, theology, identity, acceptance, pride, ableism, access, community care, unlearning, celebration

Chapters

00:50
Introduction and Background of Amy Kenny

04:02
Feeling Like a Spiritual Misfit

08:00
Encountering Jesus in Unexpected Places

11:03
The Harmful Ableism in the Church

17:40
Reframing Our Understanding of God and Disability

31:54
Reshaping Conceptions of God for Inclusivity

38:18
Moving Beyond Tolerance to Fully Receiving Gifts

44:11
Developing a Community Care Network for Disabled Members

48:43
Architecting Life and Community for Co-Flourishing

50:47
Learning from and with Disabled Individuals

58:29
Embracing Divine Identity as Disabled Individuals

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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This is the fifth and final episode in our mini-series produced in collaboration with the Pulse team from Uniting Mission and Education. And in my opinion, this one was such a profound, vulnerable and meaningful conversation. Sarah Bishop and James Aaron joined me to explore mental health and loneliness in the context of faith and spirituality. When I was sitting with Sarah and James having this conversation it felt holy to me. It felt deeply honest and human. And I hope that is your experience as you listen. A strong theme that comes through in this conversation is the strength in vulnerability, and the dignity in asking for help. So if you listen to this and you’re in a place where you need support with your own mental health, remember, there’s no shame in reaching out for help.

Watch on YouTube here.

Download the accompanying discussion guide here.

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

The Spiritual Misfits Survival Guide (FREE): https://www.spiritualmisfits.com.au/survivalguide

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Take a quick moment to think about how much technology has changed during your lifetime? What was the height of tech when you were a kid? Can you divide your life up into before and after internet connection?

The pace of technological change can be hard to keep up with — but without a doubt it has an impact on our lives, our communities — and our spirituality.

In this episode, Aditee Vora, Somerset Drayton and Jonty Conford join me to explore questions around AI, social media, spiritual formation….touching on the things we’re grateful for as well as the things we worry about.

This is part 4 in our five episode series brought to you by Spiritual Misfits in collaboration with UME’s Pulse team.

You can watch this episode on YouTube or download the accompanying discussion guide to chat through these big topics with your own crew, where ever you find yourself. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

The Spiritual Misfits Survival Guide (FREE): https://www.spiritualmisfits.com.au/survivalguide

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Hello good people, 

Welcome to the third conversation in our five episode mini-series with UME’s Pulse team. Over the last two weeks we’ve explored generational divides and climate crisis, eco anxiety and the like. 

This week another big conversation. What does it mean to keep faith in a world of racial injustice? Are people of faith in Australia today able to honestly grapple with racism in our history and our present moment? Why does it seem like the church is often no better than the rest of society in this regard? And what might it look like to continue the work of decolonising Christianity and creating anti-racist faith spaces?

This is a big conversation — so much bigger than this podcast episode — but here to spark some of your thinking around these questions I’m joined by Nathan Tyson, Radhika Sukumar-White and Liesl Homes.

Watch this episode on Youtube here.

Download the accompanying discussion guide here. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Hello again good people!

This is the second in our series of 5 collaborative conversations hosted by Spiritual Misfits and the Uniting Mission and Education Pulse team, exploring major challenges in our world today and the kind of faith that doesn’t shy away from them or just respond with unhelpful platitudes.

And this week we’re delving into a huge topic. If faith doesn’t have something to say about climate crisis, about eco anxiety, about what it means to care for and advocate for this one planet that we have — then, what good is that faith? On the other hand, how might our spirituality and the Christian tradition help ground us — literally reconnect us to the ground beneath our feet. That is what Joyce Tangi, Karina Kreminski and Jono Row join me to discuss in this episode. 

You can watch the full filmed conversation on YouTube here if that’s your jam, you can also download our accompanying discussion guide to use in your context.

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Spiritual Misfits and Uniting Mission and Education's Pulse team have collaborated to bring you a series of conversations about 5 pressing challenges we face on planet earth today, and the kind of faith that may help emerging generations to navigate and engage with them.

In this conversation a Boomer (Ken Day), Gen X (Joanna Drayton), Millennial (Will Small) and Gen Z (Ella Evans) discuss generational divides and opportunities in the realm of spirituality and community.

Watch this episode on YouTube

Download the discussion guide that accompanies this episode

Learn more about the UME Pulse team 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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In this episode Will is joined by Christine Redwood, Belinda Groves and Nathan Nettleton to discuss the emergence of the Open Baptists, a new Baptist movement within Australia. The Open Baptists seek to reimagine what it means to work together as Baptist churches, focusing on partnership, collective decision-making, and freedom of conscience. They hope to retain the Baptist identity while challenging the abuse of power and the exclusion of certain groups...that has happened in other Baptist spaces in recent years!

Learn more at https://openbaptists.org/

Keywords
Open Baptists, Baptist community, emergence, movement, partnership, collective decision-making, freedom of conscience, Baptist identity, abuse of power, inclusion, Open Baptists, Jesus, sexuality, community, welcome, church, faith, lament, healing, joy, alternative, Baptist churches, differences, mission, conversation, Holy Spirit

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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The Reverend Dr Karen Pack is a religious historian, ordained Christian minister, Commonwealth-registered marriage celebrant, and current President of Spiritual Care Australia. For over twenty five years she has been engaged in training pastors, chaplains, leaders and teachers in Australia, North America, Africa, Asia and the Middle East. Her doctoral research explored the marginalization and erasure of women and LGBTQ+ Christians from religious histories in Australia.

In this conversation, Karen shares about the kind of faith she grew up with and the deep sense of calling she had from a young age. She then shares about losing her employment at a Bible College after coming out as a queer woman, in a relationship. We then discuss what she found on the other side of that experience, and the way she continues to live out her sense of calling in the world. Karen also shares about her doctoral research into the erasure of women and LGBTQI+ folks in the recorded histories of Christianity in Australia. 

This is a vulnerable, moving, challenging and deeply important conversation, and a gift to all who take the time to listen. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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In this conversation, Will Small, Thomas Jay Oord, and Becca De Souza discuss open and relational theology, the challenges of suffering, and the process of deconstruction and reconstruction in faith. They also touch on the topic of LGBTQ+ affirmation within religious institutions. Thomas shares his personal journey from a classical theist position to open and relational theology, emphasizing the importance of understanding God's power as love. The conversation explores the need for a faith that embraces doubt and uncertainty while still providing comfort and meaning. They also discuss the role of certainty in children's faith development and the importance of allowing space for questioning and exploration. They explore the idea that salvation is not just liberation from pain, but also survival and quality of life, requiring the cooperation of both God and humanity. They also delve into the role of prayer in an open and relational theology, emphasizing that prayer is communication with God and can bring about change through our actions. They touch on the concept of miracles and how they occur when God and creation work together for something good. The conversation concludes with a reflection on the value of open and relational theology in providing a picture of God that is true for all people, especially those who have been marginalized and oppressed.

Keywords open and relational theology, suffering, deconstruction, reconstruction, LGBTQ+ affirmation, faith, doubt, certainty, children's faith development, God, suffering, open and relational theology, salvation, cooperation, prayer, miracles

Takeaways 

• Open and relational theology views God as interactive and responsive, and recognizes the limits of God's power. It offers a framework that aligns with our experiences and intuitions about love and free will.
• Certainty is not the goal of faith. Embracing doubt and uncertainty can lead to a more mature and honest understanding of God and the world.
• Children's faith development involves different stages, and it is natural for young children to have a black-and-white view of God. As they grow, it is important to create a safe space for them to ask questions and explore their beliefs.
• Traditional theologies can be traumatizing and dismissive of our experiences. Open and relational theology provides a more inclusive and compassionate perspective that takes into account the diversity of human experiences.
• The process of deconstruction and reconstruction in faith can be challenging but also liberating. It involves reevaluating our beliefs and theological frameworks, and embracing a faith that is more aligned with our values and experiences. Salvation is not just liberation from pain, but also survival and quality of life, requiring the cooperation of both God and humanity.
• God is always acting and working in the world, and our response to God's

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Well hello again my friends! 

If you’ve been listening in recent weeks I hope you have enjoyed these talks from Future Church Conference. I am excited to share that a few of us met this last week to start planning the next one — it’s going to be great. Follow New City Church or Spiritual Misfits on Instagram for a date announcement soon.

This will be the last piece of content for now from the inaugural Future Church Conference — and it’s a little different. On the evening of the day we asked 5 different speakers to give a 7 minute pitch for an idea they think is vital for the future church. So now   you have the opportunity to hear these fantastic talks — micro in length, but each one packs a punch.  

Keep listening and you will hear:

JOYCE TANGI on anti-racism

JESSICA MORTHORPE on climate justice

KAREN PACK on LGBTQIA+ Inclusion

MITCH FORBES on the place of tradition as we move forward

JOEL HOLLIER on being trauma-informed

And to round it there are a couple of songs at the end from Marion St — you may remember Gabi and Mikali who have previous been on the podcast (if you didn’t catch that one go back and listen to those legends). 

So there is a lot of good stuff jam-packed into this episode. 

Before we jump in my dear friends, listen up. I’m about to have a couple weeks off after a very big start to the year. Normally I’d line a couple of replay episodes — but as I mentioned last week we are just about to launch a Spiritual Misfits rebrand. And so, here’s what’s going to happen. For the next 2 or 3 weeks there will be a Spiritual-Misfits-shaped-hole in your podcast player. But make sure you’re subscribed — because after that we’re going to pop back into your feed with a new look, a new website and plenty of amazing and important new conversations coming your way. 

Between now and then, hit up our extensive back-log and catch up on any episodes you haven’t heard yet. Some recommendations: as we continue to witness and grieve the horrendous genocide the Israeli government is committing in Palestine, can I suggest listening to my friend Sara M. Saleh’s episode if you haven’t? Or if you want to participate in non-violent love and resistance in this world listen to the episode with Jarrod McKenna. There are so many others I could suggest, but those both feel timely.

We’ll be back in a few weeks! Until then, big love and remember — you are not alone.   

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

The Spiritual Misfits Survival Guide (FREE): https://www.spiritualmisfits.com.au/survivalguide

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Hello again friends! 

The last few weeks there’s been less of my voice on the pod, which has probably been a refreshing change. However if you proceed with listening to this one, it is my talk from Future Church Conference. Which ironically strongly reinforces the point that you should listen to many voices other than mine. I won’t redo my talk in the intro spiel here — but you will hear both my slight discomfort and embrace of the topic I was asked to speak about. 

Hey, if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, you would have heard me say that this year we are working on some other things to add to the spiritual misfits eco-system.

Well, can I tell you my friends that there are some exciting things coming very soon now. We have been doing a Spiritual Misfits rebrand — which is actually kind of the first time we’ve done proper branding for it. If you look for example at the Spiritual Misfits website or at the podcast cover art you will notice the logo for Meeting Ground Church. You may already know this but in case you’re confused Meeting Ground is a small, local church on the Central Coast of NSW of which the podcast emerged from. Obviously though the audience of the podcast goes well beyond Meeting Ground’s geography. And as much as I would love to invite every one of you beautiful listeners to be part of Meeting Ground that wouldn’t work. However, it is my hope that the podcast can be just one part of a larger work that helps connect people with other people, with different ideas, with avenues for support…so I know it’s been a slow burn, because we’re also pretty resource limited. However, on the near horizon there will be a new website, with some videos and other resources to help misfits navigate the disorientation that can come with feeling like you’re on the fringes. And there will be some other cool things that pop-up there over time. So, be warned. There will come a day soon when you look at your podcast app and the cover art for the podcast is new and beautiful and different. 

 I can also tease that just around the corner there is a limited series of episodes created in collaboration with very good humans. And I think they are going to be something special. 

Anyway, that is enough teasing of things. Tell your friends, share the love, join the Facebook group. Enjoy this little talk from Future Church Conference (and follow New City Church on Instagram to make sure you don’t miss a pending date announcement about the next one). 

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Hello Spiritual Misfits! 

This week I have another brilliant talk for you from Future Church conference which happened in January this year. We know the questions and themes we were exploring in the room that day are so pressing for many of us, and so it’s great to be able to share these talks with you if you weren’t able to join us.  

A reminder that there will be another Future Church Conference — and if these talks are wetting your appetite to be in the room if possible, make sure you give New City Church a follow on social media, or drop an email to [email protected]. We will make sure you’re in the loop when a date and other details are announced. You can also check out futurechurchcon.com — all these links will be in the show-notes too. 

This talk you’re about to hear is from the brilliant Karen Pack. Karen’s topic was ‘The Future Church is…LGBTQIA+ Inclusive’ — but as you’ll hear this talk actually has much broader applications. Karen weaves aspects of her personal story with a pretty confronting look at how histories are formed and told, and the power there is, in the way we tell the story. 

As with all of these Future Church conference talks really there are themes explored here that may bring up your own trauma — particularly if you are a queer person who has spent time in religious spaces that did not treat you with the full dignity and acceptance that you do deserve. Karen does touch on themes of suicide. And if this brings anything up for you as you listen, then please reach out for help. You can call lifeline on 13 11 14.  

Karen does reference the slides she was using on the day, but she does a fantastic job of explaining what’s on those slides, and I think you should be able to follow along without much trouble. 

Big shout-out to Kaz for this challenging, moving, vulnerable and deeply important message for anyone who finds themselves interested in what the church of tomorrow — and today, looks like. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Hello good people!

In January this year a group of us hosted the first ever Future Church conference. It was a fantastic day — we had people travel from South Australia, Queensland, Victoria…converging in Redfern Town Hall for an exploration of what the church of tomorrow could look like at its most expansive, welcoming and imaginative. We delved into some heavy topics, but it was a really inspiring and wonderful space of connection and possibility. 

There will be another Future Church Conference — if you want to make sure you don’t miss any announcements about that give New City Church a follow on the socials — or even feel free to send an email to [email protected] and we will make sure you’re in the loop when a date is announced.

In the meantime, I’m going to be playing some of the talks from last time here on the podcast. They were all brilliant, in my opinion, and are well worth sharing around and using as the basis for ongoing conversations.  

We were so grateful to be joined by Safina Stewart on the day. Safina is a proud Wuthathi and Mabuiag Island woman who grew up cross culturally in New Zealand, Papua New Guinea and Australia. She is an artist, the Relationships and Storytelling Coordinator at Common Grace, and a brilliant storyteller in her own right.

Safina gave a talk at Future Conference called ‘The Future Church is Decolonising’. This was such a powerful and palpable talk to be in the room for. If you couldn’t be in the room this recording is absolutely worth listening to! At certain points in the talk Safina used her body to illustrate the points she was making. For example, when she talks about looking back at the past to inform our future she turned away from the audience. Knowing this I’m sure you can imagine those moments as you listen.

Are you part of a church that wants to find out more about partnering with Common Grace? Email [email protected]  

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Hello good people,

In January this year…which feels like a long time ago right now….a group of us hosted the first ever Future Church conference. It was a fantastic day — we had people travel from South Australia, Queensland, Victoria…converging in Redfern Town Hall for an exploration of what the church of tomorrow could look like at its most expansive, welcoming and imaginative. We delved into some heavy topics, but it was a really inspiring and wonderful space of connection and possibility. 

There will be another Future Church Conference — if you want to make sure you don’t miss any announcements about that give New City Church a follow on the socials — or even feel free to send an email to [email protected] and we will make sure you’re in the loop when a date is announced.

In the meantime, I’m going to be playing some of the talks from last time here on the podcast. They were all brilliant, in my opinion, and are well worth sharing around and using as the basis for ongoing conversations.  

Joel Hollier was a major force in instigating Future Church Conference, along with the crew at New City Church. And here is Joel’s talk: The Future Church is Trauma Informed…

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Scott M. Coley is a lecturer in philosophy and the author the forthcoming book 'Ministers of Propaganda: Truth, Power and the Ideology of the Religious Right.'

In this conversation Scott gives an excellent overview of how propaganda can function in reinforcing systems that benefit those who are currently in positions of power and privilege. He also explains the role of 'legitimising narratives' in perpetuating social hierarchies. For people seeking to disentangle the core of faith from the ideology that is often overlaid for political or other purposes, this conversation and Scott's book can be a helpful and accessible guide.

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Growing up my understanding of Islam was largely informed by Christian sources telling me what was wrong.

 I actually remember a book I owned called ‘why are there so many gods?’ In and of itself this is not a terrible question, but the contents of the book included a 1-2 page summary of all the major (and many minor) religions of the world. And at the end of each one it had ‘the catch’ - a couple short sentences on why it was false.

Of course on the page about Christianity ‘the catch’ section said ‘there is none!’

These days I find the project a book like that is trying to engage in preposterous and arrogant. I would much rather look for the common ground across spiritual traditions. I’m happy to acknowledge and discuss differences, but I’m not looking for ‘the catch’ in every view that differs from mine! 

Speaking of common ground, this week I had a conversation with Adis Duderija, a scholar of contemporary progressive Islam. Perhaps I shouldn’t have been surprised to discover so much of what Adis outlines in terms of his approach to faith is deeply resonant with my own. And many of the tensions he describes within the tent of his tradition…sound like they could just be describing the same trends within Christianity.

I desire a spirituality that sees people from all perspectives as conversation partners and fellow learners. So I was very grateful for this chat with Adis. There’s so much more we could have explored. But if, like me, your engagement in inter-faith dialogue has been more limited than you’d like, I hope this provides an opportunity to listen, learn and see common ground in our pursuit of a good, just and beautiful life.


About Adis Duderija:
Adis Duderija is an academic, working at Griffith University. Teaching and researching on contemporary Islam with a special focus on the theory of progressive Islam, salafism and religious extremism, Islam and Gender, western Muslims’ identity construction and inter-faith dialogue theory and practice.

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Rachel Collis has often felt like the ‘non-Trekkie at the Star-Trek convention’ at church. Still, she has shown up over the years, through faith, doubt and everything in between. We explore her story as well as the powerful music she makes, closing our conversation with one of her songs, ‘the least of these.’

Check out more of Rachel’s work here: https://rachelcollis.com/

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We're adding a twist to our beloved Pub Theology episodes: bring a friend - who brings the topic. This time, Will has brought Carlynne Nunn. And Carlynne has brought shame and disappointment. Great topics for a lively ol' pub chat! Pour a drink of your choosing and join us for a rich and wide conversation about the dark and uncomfy things in life and faith. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Dear friends,  

If you are listening on the day this comes out, happy resurrection Sunday! 

And if you are listening at any other time that’s cool because resurrection is not restricted to Easter Sunday. It pops up in all kinds of places, often where it's unexpected. 

This conversation with Josephine McDonnell Inkpin is a wonderful reminder of that, and I am just delighted to share it with you.  

Josephine was Australia’s first transgender priest, and she is the minister at Pitt St Uniting Church. As you will hear throughout this conversation she has a depth of wisdom, compassion, wit, generosity -- and a remarkable perspective on the great religious traditions. As you’ll hear she’s deeply grounded in her Christian tradition while having a wonderful collaborative approach to other traditions — and to me, that’s good news. 

We talk about many things, one of them being the beautiful perspective transgender folks can bring to our understandings of resurrection. Listen deeply, share widely. The biggest thanks to Jo for joining us for this one! 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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James Watson is a musician, music educator and a lovely fella who possesses many of the same qualities as a golden retriever. He’s warm, loveable and quick to make friends. He’s also deeply thoughtful and considered, as you’ll hear in this conversation about changing churches, evolving beliefs and the ‘little hurts’ that can build up in communities over time. At the end of the chat he shares a song he wrote in anticipation of this podcast interview. And trust me, it’s a goody. You’ll probably want to play it twice, like I did the first time he sent me a voice memo with a rough recording. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Rob Waters, Gomeroi poet and storyteller and the current Australian Poetry Slam champion joined me for a rich and deep conversation about an all-encompassing spirituality that exists beyond the boxes of a compartmentalised life. Rob shares about the grounding role of Country and Story from a First Nations perspective. We then explore the prophetic role of the poets in speaking truth in an unjust world, while also acknowledging that listening ought to precede speaking. 

Towards the end of the conversation Rob shares two powerful poems and some particularly poignant and challenging stories. There’s great wisdom here for those who take the time to open their hearts and listen. Big love to Rob for sharing with us ❤️ 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Hello my friends

A few words at the top here before the episode starts.

I had to rearrange some interviews I had lined up for this week — so I’m pulling a great conversation out of the archive for you. Given that last weekend was Mardi Gras, I thought I’d replay this wonderful panel conversation we recorded just over a year ago in conjunction with World Pride. It was a great chat with Karl, Karen and Tash — certainly worth listening to either for the first time or to catch something new on a second listen.

I also wanted to take a moment here to highlight the Gaza Ceasefire Pilgrimages which have been happening during Lent. The circumstances in Gaza continue to be horrendous. I’m sure so many of you, like me, feel at a loss for words and for the right actions. If you haven’t already heard of the Gaza Ceasefire Pilgrimage this has become a worldwide movement of Christian groups hosting 41km walks — the length of Gaza — as an act of solidarity as well as a nonviolent protest, calling for a permanent ceasefire. These walks are hosted by Christians, welcoming of people from all or no faith background, and are built around strong core convictions, including condemning anti-semitism, which is not the same thing as critiquing the Israeli government.

At Meeting Ground church, we will be doing 4 10km walks during Holy Week, starting on Palm Sunday. As we prepare to reflect on the crucified Christ at Easter, I cannot think of a more pertinent time to try to connect our bodies, minds and hearts with those who are unjustly crucified, scapegoated and oppressed — in our world today. If you happen to be on the Central Coast and you want to join us reach out. Otherwise, check out gazaceasefirepilgrimage.com to learn more and connect with groups and organisers in your neck of the woods. I know many listeners will have already participated in pilgrimages in recent weeks, and if that’s the case, big respect to you and your crew. 

Where ever you find yourself this week may you turn your ears and your voice and your being in the direction of love that perseveres. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Will and Hannah debrief their thoughts after binging 'Prosper' on Stan. 

We avoid spoilers, and there's still plenty of interesting questions here for people who haven't watched the show. So get yourself a cuppa and join us as we discuss wealth,  celebrity pastors, corruption and more.

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Emily Hayes is the minister at Alice Springs Uniting Church. Mitch and Will met Emily towards the end of 2023 at a gathering and began a fascinating conversation which they pick up in this episode, exploring things like calling, discernment, and a spirituality of place and deep listening. 

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Sarah McCammon is an award-winning National Political Respodent for NPR and the author of the upcoming book: 'The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living and Leaving the White Evangelical Church'.

‘The Exvangelicals’ is part-memoir and part-journalism, providing a guided tour through the significant religious and political social shifts happening in our current historical moment, interwoven with Sarah’s own story growing up evangelical.

As I said to Sarah multiple times throughout our conversation, I  deeply appreciated this book. But don't just take my word for it! It’s endorsed by people like Brian McLaren, Nadia Bolz Weber, Jemar Tisby and Kristen Kobes Du Mez.

I don’t want to overstate the influence of American evangelicalism here in Australia….but I also don’t want to understate it.  What America exports in faith, politics and culture show up in so many ways we would do well to critically ponder.

Listen to this chat and then go and pre-order Sarah's book from the link below!

Pre-order the book here: https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/the-exvangelicals/

Subscribe to Sarah’s Substack here: https://sarahmccammon.substack.com/

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If you listened to our advent episode you got to hear some beautiful Christmas music from Peter Espevoll with some production from Jon Reinhardt (who you may remember if you listened to the ‘experience of David Bentley Hart’ episode).

What you may be surprised to hear is that despite putting out a Christmas album recently Peter’s musical background is primarily in the death metal scene - some of you may have even heard of the band Extol. Formed in the 90s they were a Norwegian Christian death metal band, who actually managed the rare achievement of having a decent amount of cross-over success beyond the Christian music industry.

But there came a point when Peter couldn’t even step into the studio or onto a stage anymore. Initially it was for health reasons…but that led to a major questions in Peter’s once confident faith.

This episode explores that story…and is a powerful listen, whether or not you’re a fan of death metal!

Listen to Extol on Spotify here: https://open.spotify.com/artist/3A6RBkFY3kND3Z5kXM3Cz3?si=wx4X1bG3S9a6HTnhEMxfrA

Listen to Peter’s current project, Hrada:

On Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4phufaK8eMLEMSnd36h4Yf?si=L-bYznObQ4qXMjvA_kanig

On Bandcamp: https://hrada.bandcamp.com/

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Kristen LaValley is a writer whose works  offers “insights that intersect doubt and belief, hope and suffering, beauty and heartache, complexity and simplicity.” Questioning and curiosity have always been a natural part of Kristen’s faith from her childhood through to now.

Kristen’s upcoming book, ‘Even if He Doesn’t’ opens up some of Kristen’s own experiences of suffering, confusion and heartache, alongside an exploration of theology that doesn’t reduce faith to simplistic formulas.

See the ‘cultural history of deconstruction post’ we discuss from Kristen’s Instagram account here: https://www.instagram.com/p/Cwz5TSwriDm/?igsh=MTVxc3p4bjFoZXoxbw==

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Nils von Kalm is an award-winning freelance writer, whose work seeks to lift people's dignity. Nils explores the intersections between faith and the complexities of life.

In this conversation Nils shares vulnerably about formational moments in his own life, including his experience of the 'Men's Rites of Passage' (founded by Fr. Richard Rohr) and his visits to Gaza and Israel when working for an international aid and development organisation. Throughout the conversation Nils articulates what it means for him to live and express a faith that focuses on the margins, rather than the centre. 

I really enjoyed this conversation and hope you do too. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Liz Cooledge Jenkins joins Hannah and Will for a conversation about her new book 'Nice Churchy Patriarchy', unpacking all the subtle but damaging ways patriarchy can operate in 'nice' Christian spaces and inviting us to imagine and participate in more equitable and just ways of creating faith communities.

Connect with Liz's work here: https://lizcooledgejenkins.com/

About 'Nice Churchy Patriarchy': https://lizcooledgejenkins.com/nice-churchy-patriarchy/

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Jonny Cornford from Filthy Hope podcast joins Will Small for a crossover episode.

In the first half of the episode we exchange some of our own stories and discuss our motivations for making work like this, then in the second half we get into an honest ‘filthy misfit’ discussion about prayer.

Learn more about Filthy Hope here: https://www.unitingheartandsoul.org/filthy-hope

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I’m taking a little breather between the end of 2023 and the beginning of 2024. Thankfully, there are so many incredible conversations in our back-log. I’m pulling a few favourites out to revisit - like this one!

If you’re in Sydney (or willing to travel) join us on the 25th of Jan for Future Church Conference (futurechurchcon.com) with Joel Hollier, Safina Stuart, Karen Pack and Christine Redwood. They’ve all been on the podcast before and they’re all great. So we’d love to see you then. 

It’s going to be a big year for Spiritual Misfits. Jump in our Facebook group or join our mailing list to stay in the loop. 

ABOUT BECCA
Becca De Souza is a doula, and a writer (check out links below to some articles we reference in this conversation). And she has a profound story of coming to see God in new ways in the midst of trauma and PTSD. 

Read some of her words here:
https://www.cbeinternational.org/person/becca-de-souza/https://thesheisproject.org/2018/02/out-of-the-dust-beccas-story/

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I’m taking a little breather between the end of 2023 and the beginning of 2024. Thankfully, there are so many incredible conversations in our back-log. I’m pulling a few favourites out to revisit - like this one!

If you’re in Sydney (or willing to travel) join us on the 25th of Jan for Future Church Conference (futurechurchcon.com) with Joel Hollier, Safina Stewart, Karen Pack and Christine Redwood. They’ve all been on the podcast before and they’re all great. So we’d love to see you then.

It’s going to be a big year for Spiritual Misfits. Jump in our Facebook group or join our mailing list to stay in the loop.


DAVE TOMLINSON
Dave is a vicar from London, a wonderful storyteller and truth seeker and has written many books including ‘how to be a bad Christian and a better human being’ which we discuss in this conversation.

Simon Buckingham Shum who is a part of meeting ground church joined me to co-host this one - as a Brit who has been following Dave’s work for a long time.

Simon and Dave make reference a few times to Greenbelt, which is an annual festival in the UK bringing together faith, justice, philosophy, art and a shared space for people from all walks of life. There’s a link in the shownotes if you want to learn more.

At the end of the conversation Dave gives one of the best definitions of hope I’ve ever heard.

This was a delightful conversation to have and I hope it encourages you.

Listen to Dave's talks at  Greenbelt here:
https://www.greenbelt.org.uk/talks-archive/#~tomlinson

Check out Dave's YouTube channel here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpGqunuXebtPE1SaSlVjsdA

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How do we think about Christmas this year? What does it mean to celebrate the ‘Prince of Peace’ when the realities of war and genocide continue without ceasing? 

What use is the Christmas story when church bells are drowned out by bombs?


If our Christian spirituality doesn’t engage deeply with the darkness, what right has it to proclaim the coming of light?


We’ve created an audio experience to help locate our hearts with those who suffer this Christmas. A mix of poetry, music and reflections to remind us that the heart of the Incarnation story is a God who does not shy away from the darkness, but comes to dwell in it.


We encourage you to take 30 minutes on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day to experience this liturgy and to consider sharing it with others, in the belief that Christmas is not a distraction from the horrors of the world; it’s an invitation to confront them directly and show up in solidarity however we can.


With special thanks to Jon Reichardt and Peter Espevoll for music and production on this episode.

Listen here to 'Among the Stars' by Hrada for some of the tracks on this episode ('Christmas Mass', 'We Three Kings', and 'O Holy Night')

'Subversive Nativity' poem by Dean Johnston & Will Small, inspired by Reverend Dr. Munther Isaac.

'The Uninvited Christ' by Thomas Merton. For more on this piece, read this great article.

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We are currently cooking up a NEW Christmas listening experience/liturgy, which will be released next week on Christmas Eve.

In the meantime, here's our Advent Liturgy from last year, which we still hold dear to our hearts. Whether you’ve listened to it previously or this is your first time, this is a grounding, stirring, contemplative audio experience, and we reckon there’s something here for you.

Also THIS in January: https://futurechurchcon.com/ (every speaker at this one day conference has been on the podcast previously and we love them all. Come join us!)


Almost all of the stunning music in this episode is used with grateful permission from  Bjear. His two Christmas albums ‘a Christmas with Bjear and friends volumes 1 and 2’ are available now. You can go and grab them on Bandcamp here and support an independent Australian artist this Christmas.

Special thanks to Erin, Leksi, Ellaina, Caro, Emily, Becca, Hannah, Mel, Kerry and Sam for reading on this one, as well as Noah and Leo who had brief cameos.

Scripture:
Luke 1:46-55

Poetry:
Advent: Mary, Will Small
Sometimes I Wonder, Kaitlin Shetler

Songs:
Have Yourself a Merry Christmas, performed by Bjear & friends
The First Noel, performed by Bjear & friends
Christmas Eve, 1818, performed by Bjear & friends
Midnight, Christians, is the Solemn Hour, performed by Bjear & friends
O Holy Night, performed by Bjear & friends

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Mitch has now officially become a pastor in the Uniting Church, and has the sweet wardrobe to prove it. In light of this Will, Hannah and Mitch have a discussion about the relationship between tradition and progress. How do we know what from the past is worth holding onto? How do we know if we’re actually making progress?

Plus the trio come up with a name for the metaphorical Spiritual Misfits pub. 

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Sara M. Saleh is a human rights lawyer, community organiser, writer and the daughter of migrants from Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon. She has many very impressive achievements to her name including being the first poet to win both the Australian Book Review’s Peter Porter Poetry Prize and the Overland Judith Wright Poetry Prize, which she did back to back in 2020 and 2021. Sara’s debut novel Songs for the Dead and the Living is out now (link below where you can buy).  

Sara is one of the voices that has been a helpful guide for me in recent weeks as we’ve seen the Israeli government cause enormous levels of destruction and loss of human life in Gaza. 

This conversation is really helpful for decoupling anti-zionism and anti-semitism and understanding why it’s so dangerous when these are conflated. 

It’s so obvious, as you’ll hear throughout this conversation that Sara holds a fierce commitment to any group of oppressed and suffering people, while striving for solutions that do not simply flip who is oppressing who. The way she speaks about liberation is so generous and beautiful and just. 

We talk about the limits of identity politics and the deep solidarity that can be found in shared values — and there’s just so much wisdom here. 

Listen deeply, share widely, and take whatever actions you can — great or small — in the direction of justice. 

Sara’s website:
https://www.saramsaleh.com/

Buy ‘Songs for the Dead and the Living’:
https://www.booktopia.com.au/songs-for-the-dead-and-the-living-sara-m-saleh/book/9781922848536.html

Follow Sara on Instagram: @instasaranade

‘A guide to Palestine for beginners’ (this is a fantastic doc):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lgiFGdUKiPfzC-xo6LZQXvGNIXGHyMYsGCA035kKc80/mobilebasic

Donate to the Australia Palestine Advocacy Network: https://apan.org.au/donate/

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Noah (8 years old) makes his podcast debut with a whole lot of wisdom on all the big questions.

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Radhika Sukumar-White is an ordained minister in the Uniting Church of Australia and she co-leads Leichhardt Uniting Church, a beautiful and vibrant community of faith, justice and creativity. We talk about Radhika's own story as well as some of the unique characteristics that make LUC the special place that it is and what other communities might be able to learn from their approach. 

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Michael Frost (the kiwi version who hosts 'In the Shift' podcast) and Shane-Meyer Holt join me for a rich conversation exploring their own stories and experiences around high control religious settings and their attempts to create much more open, gentle and generous communities these days. We talk about power dynamics, coercive control and the risk these things can pose to communities of all sizes - mega to micro. We also talk about embodiment, processing trauma and the kind of spirituality that embraces and listens to the body. There's so much good stuff in this one. Enjoy.

Check out the excellent 'In the Shift': https://intheshift.com/

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Mikali Anagnostis and Gabi Cabenhead are behind a new sacred art project called ‘Marion St’, an attempt to create “worship music that fits with the theology and experience of the progressive church.”

Gabi and Mikali are also young, open-eyed about the injustices often attached to religious spaces, while simultaneously passionate about their faith and its expression in community.

We explored some big questions together, such as:
- Why do churches with slick services often have narrow theology…and churches with inclusive theology often have daggy services? Is the best of both possible?
- What do young people in Gen Z think about spirituality and organised religion? What do they actually want from church?

This was a lovely conversation with two excellent humans. Enjoy!

Listen to ‘Whole’ by Marion St here

The songs ‘Shaping a New World’ and ‘Garden’ are featured at the beginning and end of this episode.  

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Olivia Jackson lives on the side of a windswept hill with two dogs.

After spending most of her life in and around evangelical contexts, including nearly 15 years working for mission agencies in the UK and overseas, Olivia has been deconstructing her faith for the past few years. This eventually led her to seeking out the stories and experiences of others, through an online survey with over 400 respondents followed by in-depth interviews with 140 of them.

The culmination of this storytelling process is her recent book '(Un)Certain: a Collective Memoir of Deconstructing Faith.'

Olivia joins me for a conversation about what she learned from diving deep into deconstruction, not just as a personal process, but as a pattern occurring across a vast Christian denominations, institutions and movements. We explore the common themes that spark this journey and the various pathways it can lead to.

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Gregg Morris returns to the pod (go back and listen to more of his brilliance on the episode ‘Melbourne panel: Is Christianity still good news?’) to share reflections on becoming culturally informed and examining what the referendum result reveals about Australia today. 

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What a wild week on planet earth.

In the first half of this episode we try to process the emotions and experiences of what we are seeing in the media cycle, without providing commentary on the circumstances themselves (we would each freely acknowledge there are far better voices for you to listen to than ours for these purposes). We explore the place of hope in a heavy world.

During the second half of the episode, we introduce a new 'occasional segment': Mitch reads the Bible. In which Mitch, who reads the Bible regularly, reads some of it for us and offers an alternative perspective on a familiar parable.

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If you've joined us recently as a new listener chances are there are a bunch of great episodes in the back-log you haven't listened to yet! This is one of them.

Benjamin Hastings is an incredibly gifted songwriter and lyricist, most known for some of the songs he’s written with Hillsong, including ‘So Will I’, ‘O Praise the Name’ and ‘Highlands’. His songs collectively have more than 500 million streams.

Hillsong worship leaders probably  aren’t the image you typically think of when you hear the phrase ‘Spiritual Misfit’. But our conversation with Ben was a great reminder that human beings — whether on platforms or in lounge rooms — have questions. Live within mystery. And doubt. And faith. And mess. And beauty. 

This is what honest spirituality looks like. 

And Ben is a true spiritual seeker, not satisfied with easy answers, and deeply committed to bringing his whole mind, heart and being to the search for deep truth.

Ben shared some of his own story with us — about the unravelling and the searching and the creative process in the midst of it all. And it was such a joy.

And as an incredibly special treat, Ben played us two of our favourite songs of his at the end of our chat. Stick around to the end of the episode and you’ll hear these songs played exclusively for our Spiritual Misfits community.

Check out more of Ben’s work here: https://www.benjaminhastingsmusic.com/

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Grant Wilson is a pastor who became a quadriplegic after a mountain biking accident in 2021. In this conversation he shares with honesty and vulnerability about his injury and recovery journey, his faith, struggles and hopes. 

This episode explores significant trauma, distress and grief.  It also provides an invitation to grow in empathy and understanding and to think seriously about accessibility and inclusion as it relates to disability.

Grant is an incredible guy, and alongside the enormous challenges he's faced, he’s clearly a person of deep hope and love. 

Watch the short film about Grant's story, 'I'm not Finished Yet': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ymLCuPqiiw

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Jarrod McKenna joins me for a rich and beautiful conversation about his own story and the story of healing we are all invited into. We explore how Jarrod McKenna became Jarrod McKenna, why nonviolence isn’t the same thing as non-violence, why Jarrod prefers not to draw a line between the private and the public work, and how to swap out death-dealing religion for a life-giving, liberating love.

This episode is an absolute banger. Enjoy, share and stir up loving mischief like Jarrod does.

Check out InVerse podcast with Jarrod here:
https://jarrodmckenna.com/inverse-podcast/

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Jon Reichardt (probably the coolest person at the David Bentley Hart event in Sydney) joins Mitch and Will for a chat about David Bentley Hart's classic theism.

We talk about freedom, universalism, panentheism, theosis and a bunch of other nerdy stuff that we're still trying to get our heads around. If you don’t know what some of the words mean, don’t stress — they aren’t prerequisites for joining us at the digital pub.

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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The excellent David Gushee returns to the podcast!

If you are a newer listener  you may not have heard our previous episode with David around a year ago (we strongly recommend listening to that fantastic conversation exploring what comes after evangelicalism).

This time round we’re speaking about David’s new book, ‘Defending democracy from its Christian enemies.’

The book explores anti-democratic movements and sentiments around the globe, and the way that certain expressions of Christianity can unfortunately be strong allies in that cause.

We cover a lot of ground in this chat, from some of the history of democracy, to the rise of authoritarian reactionary Christian politics, to the way some of these ideas are playing out within denominations that have been historically more democratic tightening their centre of control. And we also reflect a little at the end of the conversation about the upcoming Voice referendum here in Australia — and how some of these ideas relate to that process.

David not only diagnoses some very clear problems, but he also presents a democratic vision that can counteract some of what we’re seeing — and the conversation finishes with some optimism and good cause to  defend the achievement that democracy represents — one that we shouldn’t take for granted. 

Connect with David’s work at:
https://www.davidpgushee.com/

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Safina Stewart and Bianca Manning from Common Grace joined me for a conversation about the season of creation and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander spirituality, and about the historical moment we’re in, with the upcoming referendum. It’s such a rich conversation with beautifully overlapping themes of truth, beauty and justice, and I encourage you to listen deeply.

Connect with Common Grace and Season of Creation:
https://www.commongrace.org.au/let_justice_and_peace_flow_intro

Watch the Common Grace 'Common Home' video Will speaks about in the episode:
https://www.commongrace.org.au/about

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Janet Kellogg Ray is a science educator who teaches biology at a large university. She's also a person of faith. In her US context, this puts her at odds with many evangelicals who are suspicious of science and deny evolution, climate change and COVID science. We discuss her upcoming book 'The God of Monkey Science' and why it's so dangerous for Christians to deny scientific evidence and consensus. We also explore the alternative — a faith that takes the modern world, including science, seriously.

Connect with Janet’s work: https://janetkray.com/

‘The God of Monkey Science’: https://www.eerdmans.com/Mobile/Products/8319/the-god-of-monkey-science.aspx

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Kelly Skilton is an artist and pastor who heads up new and digital communities for the Uniting Church in Victoria and Tasmania. A few years ago Kelly got a diagnosis of ADHD. We discuss neurodiversity, spirituality and creating inclusive communities with a focus on digital spaces.

Kelly shares about Sonderverse, which you can check out here: https://www.sonderverse.org/

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Jesse Mawson is a prison chaplain studying a masters in spiritual direction, and finding a home within contemplative and celtic spirituality. 

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Sally Douglas comes on the pod to speak about her latest book, ‘Jesus Sophia’ and we explore the divine feminine, the limitations of our metaphors, a trinitarian universe and more.

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Will Nicholas, the Odd Rev, joins me for a conversation about the meaning of life, the universe everything.

Connect with Will at: https://oddrev.com/

Read AI reflections on the lectionary at: https://www.sonderverse.org/

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Hannah, Mitch & Will discuss a wide range of questions from poddy listeners covering ground like: 

- What could multi-faith peace-making look like?
- What's up with Christians buying into wild end-times conspiracy theories?
- AI and personhood?
- What are the alternatives to the institutional church? 
- PSA?*
- Evangelism for post-evangelicals? 
- How open-minded can you be when questioning faith? Should some things remain solid or is everything on the table? 
- What are we planning to tell our kids about sex in the future?

*Penal substitutionary atonement....not to be confused with public service announcement....

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Will is still pro-Bible but struggling to read it. He wonders if everyone actually needs to aspire towards regular Bible reading or if we can just benefit from a 'critical mass' of people doing the work and passing on the goods? Mitch somewhat concedes Will's point/somewhat pushes back on it. They then talk about the influence of increasing conservatism on the broader Church and a dumb essay someone wrote recently warning people to beware of 'sexular churches.'

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Mason Mennenga, 'the Internet's Youth Pastor' and host of ‘A People's Theology’ Podcast joined Bronte Hughes & Will Small for a conversation about the many weird aspects of growing up in the shadow of American evangelicalism (even in Australia), and the discovery of new ways of thinking about God, including liberation theology, process theology and theopoetics.

At the end of the episode we do some ‘round-table rapid-fire’ and compare our answers to questions including:
- Most cringey piece of Christian merch we ever rocked
- Grossest youth group challenge we remember
- Favourite Relient K song



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At the beginning of NADIOC week this episode is a powerful conversation with Larissa Minniecon, about her story, and reflections on the upcoming referendum and why the Voice presents a powerful step forward for justice.

Larissa Minniecon is a Kabi Kabi, Gureng Gureng, Ambryn and a Zenadth Kes woman who lives, works and studies on Gadigal Land.

She is currently undertaking a Masters degree in Narrative Therapy and Community Work through the University of Melbourne. 

Larissa is a respected emerging Christian leader who has a rich ministry heritage with over 20 years of experience, working in Community Development and Indigenous Health in remote, rural and urban Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities nationally. Her maiden speech to the Anglican Synod can be found here.

She currently works in ministry with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander individuals and families across Australia and is based in Glebe at St John’s Anglican Church where she is part of the co-ordination team for Scarred Tree Indigenous Ministries.  

She is the Chair of Glebe NAIDOC Committee and a sought after speaker, consultant and educator.

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Becca De Souza and Carolyn Meers return for their podcast hat-trick and a rich and wide conversation around the questions emerging while trying to raise kids with faith....while trying to minimise the baggage.


Resources mentioned at the end of this episode:

'Telling God's Story, Pete Enns: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/8432252-telling-god-s-story

'Jesus Showed Us!' Brad Jersak: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1927512069?ref_=cm_sw_r_cp_ud_dp_8XH1009Q7C8KKA1HA3F4

'Holy Troublemakers and Unconventional Saints' https://www.holytroublemakers.com/

Meredith Ann Miller: https://meredithannemiller.com/

'Becoming Rooted: 100 days of Reconnecting with Sacred Earth' Randy Woodley
https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Rooted-Hundred-Reconnecting-Sacred/dp/150647117X


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Gregg Morris, Sally Douglas, Will Nicholas and Carlynne Nunn joined Will Small in Melbourne for a conversation about whether Christianity still has good news to offer our world today, even with all its baggage. 

A wide-ranging and rich episode that covers areas such as:

• Woman wisdom and Jesus as the feminine divine 
• The ‘cultural tale’ we drag behind us 
• The power of sci-fi and storytelling for thinking about theological questions 
• The good news of failure, disappointment and embracing the ordinary

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Priyanka Bromhead, amongst many things, is the founder of ‘We are the Mainstream.’ — a collective of First Nations, Women of Colour and Gender Diverse folk of colour, creating spaces for courageous conversations, that challenge systems and structures of power and centre perspectives that have often been forced to the edges. 

Priyanka shares more about We are the Mainstream during our conversation, but also opens up about her own personal experiences of the faith she grew up with and the ongoing work of decolonising that faith. And in this there are some really beautiful and profound descriptions of what faith means to her today.

At one point in our conversation, Priyanka talks about not being made in the image of a white man.

I’m increasingly conscious that our images of God can be so interwoven with the people we surround ourselves with and expose ourselves to. So, for me, as a white man — I want to enter a conversation like this one ready to learn more about the many faces and voices that reflect God. Because the truth is, the under-representation of diverse voices and perspectives doesn’t just minimise those individuals and groups — it means all of us, end up with a distorted and reductive image of the divine.

In our chat Priyanka also mentions Larissa Minniecon, a First Nations woman who will be on a Spiritual Misfits episode in the coming weeks — which will be partly around the referendum, and I think will be a really important episode to share far and wide, so I encourage you to look out for that. 

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The recording from our live spiritual misfits pub theology at the rogue scholar in Newcastle! Will reads poems from his new book and his favourite English teacher (Hannah Gierhart) and favourite rev (Mitch Forbes) provide literary and theological reflections along the way.

Come say hi at one of these upcoming events!

CANBERRA, JUNE 8
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-canberra-book-launch-reading

MELBOURNE, June 10
https://events.humanitix.com/spiritual-misfits-live-poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-melbourne

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After interviewing Dean Johnston I came away feeling like someone needs to make a movie about this guy’s life. Alternatively Dean needs to write a memoir. While we wait for Dean to write his memoir or for Terrence Malick to make the film, this podcast episode will have to do the job. This is a story of losing and finding God — and whether you feel more lost or found, at this point in time, I hope this story connects with your heart like it did mine. 

Come say hi at one of these upcoming events!

CANBERRA, JUNE 8
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-canberra-book-launch-reading

MELBOURNE, June 10
https://events.humanitix.com/spiritual-misfits-live-poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-melbourne

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Our panel conversation from Spiritual Misfits live in Newtown on 'wisdom for the wilderness', with the wonderful Joel Hollier, Becca de Souza, Carolyn Meers & Simon Nixon.

Join us at upcoming Spiritual Misfits Live events!

NEWCASTLE, May 28, The Rogue Scholar
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-newcastle

MELBOURNE, June 10, Brunswick Salvos
https://events.humanitix.com/spiritual-misfits-live-poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-melbourne

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This one is being released on Mother’s Day.

And in the lead-up to Mother’s Day I’ve been thinking about God, gender and metaphors. And I wanted to share some thoughts that may be helpful for you.  Afterwards, there’s space for a moment of stillness and contemplation, to help you engage with Spirit in a way that may be a little different to what you’re used to. 

Let me start by telling you a story....

Join us at upcoming Spiritual Misfits Live events!

NEWCASTLE, May 28, The Rogue Scholar
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-newcastle

MELBOURNE, June 10, Brunswick Salvos
https://events.humanitix.com/spiritual-misfits-live-poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-melbourne

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Since childhood, Matt has found a deep sense of spirituality and connection beyond the walls of the church. For many years he was a pastor, seeking to help others experience the same. For Matt, loving, including and affirming LGTBQI+ people was an obvious aspect of Christianity. Not everyone else saw it that way though, and Matt ended up facing a significant cost for his stance on inclusion. Matt’s story is both harrowing and inspiring. And whilst you would never wish Matt’s experience on anybody, it’s his own personal experience of religious trauma that plays a big role in the work he does today, supporting survivors of spiritual abuse and trauma to experience healing. 

Get your tickets to our upcoming Spiritual Misfits LIVE events:

SYDNEY, May 13, Newtown Mission
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-syd

NEWCASTLE, May 28, The Rogue Scholar
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-newcastle

MELBOURNE, June 10, Full details coming shortly!

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Hannah, Mitch and Will discuss violence and the Bible and what they make of it at this point in time.

Get your tickets to our upcoming Spiritual Misfits LIVE events:

SYDNEY, May 13, Newtown Mission
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-syd

NEWCASTLE, May 28, The Rogue Scholar
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-newcastle

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This week on the pod I’m joined by Alexis Halverson.

Alexis is an incredibly thoughtful, considered and philosophical human being. She is also a trans person of faith with a fascinating story that includes growing up in church, leaving institutional Christianity and then returning and finding new beauty in old traditions.

Get your ticket to our first Spiritual Misfits LIVE events:

SYDNEY, May 13, Newtown Mission
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-syd

NEWCASTLE, May 28, The Rogue Scholar
https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-newcastle

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Jon Owen, CEO and pastor at Wayside Chapel is the kind of person whose life really looks like the ethics of Jesus embodied. 

We explore the tensions that exist between different forms of Christian faith — such as the kind that prioritises the dreams of Western culture in contrast with the kind that inhabits the fringes and the margins, in solidarity with those who suffer. We also talk about the concept of calling, and listening to your life, and finding the spaces where who you are aligns with what you can offer the world around you. 

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https://events.humanitix.com/poems-for-when-the-world-is-ending-spiritual-misfits-live-syd

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Happy Resurrection Sunday if you’re listening on the day this episode is being released. To coincide with the Easter long weekend, this is a longer serving of podcast goodness with a very special guest. 

Tripp Fuller of Homebrewed Christianity, legendary podcaster, brilliant theologian, prolific talker, very generously said yes to a conversation with myself and Simon Nixon. 

Shout-out to Simon who teed this one up. 

If you want to meet Simon and myself, and many other misfits in person, we are organising our first ever Spiritual Misfits live in Sydney. Saturday 13th of May at Newtown Mission. More details in the Facebook group, or if you’re not in there, keep an ear out and we will no doubt share more details in coming weeks on the pod. 

I did considered editing out parts of this conversation that may be a little more theologically niche, but I decided to keep them in, because if you’re one of the people that care about that niche, you’ll probably be pretty interested in those sections. 

However, if that’s not you, don’t worry, I’m going to give you some navigation tips up the top here. 

The first 45 minutes of this episode is a combination of Tripp’s story with a decent overview of open and relational theology. If you listened to the episode with Becca De Souza a couple weeks back and were curious about some of the questions raised about whether or not God is in control, this is a further dive into that. And I think many of you will find it very interesting. 

Around 45 minutes in, I ask Tripp a question about the compatibility or not of open theism with David Bentley Hart’s arguments for universal salvation. This is where things get a little nerdy and a little niche until around the 75 minute mark. 
 
 After that the remainder of the episode is essentially an Easter sermon from Tripp, about resurrection. And it’s great. And I recommend you listen to that. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Last year on Good Friday we shared this meditation on Psalm 22. We've had a bunch of listeners join us since then, so we're sharing this for those who might want to engage with it this year. 

Grab a candle, find a comfortable place to sit and spend 15 minutes listening.

The meditation begins with a moment to help you become grounded and aware of your body and breath, followed by a reading of the Psalm, and a simple thought at the end for you to meditate on. 

Whatever Easter holds for you, we hope this meditation encourages you and connects you with the love of Christ. 

Wishing all our fellow spiritual misfits a Happy Easter. 

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Mitch and Will are taking a break from alcohol during Lent. Hannah didn't get the memo. We spend the first half of the chat discussing reasons for and against participating in Lent (and things like fasting and other religious seasons more generally.)

During the second half of the chat we turn our attention to discussing this stunning, recent essay from Anna McGahan (kind of an 'exit letter' from Christianity), which the three of us all read and felt deeply moved by. We give some context, but it's well worth you taking a few minutes to read:

http://www.aforbiddenroom.com/spirit/the-starling/

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Hello misfits, friends, human beings! 

Welcome to another episode of the podcast. A really wonderful conversation; the kind that is somehow earthy and grounded and raw while also deeply poetic and moving. Becca De Souza is a doula, and a writer (check out links below to some articles we reference in this conversation). And she has a profound story of coming to see God in new ways in the midst of trauma and PTSD. 

Read some of her words here:
https://www.cbeinternational.org/person/becca-de-souza/ https://thesheisproject.org/2018/02/out-of-the-dust-beccas-story/

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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A few years ago, (pre Spiritual Misfits) I was making a podcast called Man;Kind. It was primarily a show about the unhelpful gender moulds we place on each other, with particular reference to manhood and masculinity etc. The name of the show was supposed to beg the question: could the word ‘man’ become more associated with kindness than power or strength or aggression. 

During the production of that show I got to do one of my favourite interviews that I’ve done to date, with someone I admire very much. Australian film maker, Damon Gameu. His films include ‘that sugar film’, ‘2040’ and more recently ‘Regenerating Australia’.

For various reasons I won’t bore you with that interview got a little lost and never really got the audience I think it was worthy of. And I think you dear misfit listeners, are very likely to love and benefit from this chat.

Although the angle of the interview is somewhat grounded in ideas of gender and manhood in particular, there is so much about this conversation that relates to what we often explore on Spiritual Misfits (and of course I should also note that many of the issues around masculinity are extremely relevant to Christian spaces which can be responsible for doubling down on outdated gender roles, rather than helping us critique and transcend them). 

But beyond gender, Damon and I asked questions around how we make new meaning when our old models have largely let us down. How we tap into awe and wonder. And how we can care for our one planet in the midst of ecological crisis. We also touch on the desire for the transcendent and the need for collective social change rather than just individual responsibility. 

It was such a helpful conversation for me at the time and I learned a lot from Damon.

So, with all that in mind I hope you enjoy this conversation!

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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One theme that has come up across several episodes of the podcast is about how to think about the different versions of ourselves across time. When you think back to an earlier version of yourself who perhaps has a very different faith to the one you have now, how do you feel? Do you cringe? Do you feel shame? Do you long for or miss those days? The reality is, you can’t go back to earlier days in your life — whether you miss them or wish you could erase them. But, perhaps, learning to see them as part of your unfolding story is a part of spiritual maturity. I often think, that if we cannot extend kindness to earlier versions of ourselves, we will be unable to extend that kindness to people who believe now, what we believed then. Maybe the opposite is true also.

So, this guided reflection is intended to help you exercise self-compassion to these different versions of yourself across time. And, to look back attempting to see what was good, beautiful and true, even in very different stages of life.

The exercise invites you to revisit memories from childhood through to today. For some of us, there may be great pain, loss or discomfort between those points, perhaps particularly regarding religious beliefs or spaces. And if that’s the case, and you don’t feel comfortable revisiting those memories now, please know you are welcome to leave this one if it’s not for you. Or to come back at a time when you are around people or a place that feels safe for you. 

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Last weekend was Mardi Gras, and you may have listened to our WorldPride panel on the pod last week. 

My guest this week, Rod Pattenden was actually in the first church group to march in the Mardis Gras parade back in around 1999. And whilst that involved a horrendous amount of discrimination and suffering, I am amazed at Rod’s courage and resilience. 

There’s a lot of other things I love about Rod. He’s an artist with a PhD in art and religion, and as you’ll hear, he’s a brilliant thinker and practitioner, constantly finding ways to translate ideas into action. 

This conversation took place in a room in Rod’s house filled with art and books — a pretty good place to be if you ask me. As you listen, I hope you get the sense that you’re in the room with us, exploring how we can break open our boxes and find new ways of seeing the divine in all kinds of places.  

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Have you ever heard Christians criticise the use of the word ‘pride’ in queer culture?

This week Karl Hand, Karen Pack and Tash Holmes come on the podcast for a discussion around why pride is a like ‘holy word’ for queer people and the current state of play for queer people of faith.

We also explored the concept of allyship. What does it mean to be an ally? When do well-meaning allies cause harm? How can we start from grounds of mutuality and friendship? 

This conversation was joyful, optimistic and moving. Enjoy!

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There’s this thought experiment in the world of philosophy called the ship of Theseus. You may have heard it. The general idea is that there’s a ship. And over time every part of it — the rudder, the sails, the other stuff on a ship which I don’t know the names of — is gradually replaced, one by one. There comes a point at which the ship has none of its original components. And yet this process has taken place over many years. So is it the same ship it was at the beginning? Or is it a different one? 

Of course, this idea is a great way to think about our lives. At an actual cellular level this is true of your own body over time as our cells are constantly being replaced. And it’s certainly true for healthy spirituality, as we grow and find new language and ideas in the process.

I started thinking about this idea after this episode’s conversation with Nicola Morley. Because Nicola’s story is a conversation about change across time in some really significant ways. And yet, there are certain characteristics that Nicola has possessed her whole life. Enthusiasm. Sincerity. A whole-hearted approach. 

We spoke about her early faith, her stint as a missionary overseas, and her journey of coming out later in life and embracing queerness, and the changes in her Christianity along the way. 

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Church attendance in the West is on the decline. 

I think any church interested in having a future needs to do some serious reflecting on what may need to change.

And I’m pretty convinced there’s a big gap to be filled for people who still desire a faith community, but aren’t looking to return what they may have left for good reasons.

So...what kind of churches could fill that gap?

At least one component of that conversation is about the moolah. How to resource and staff churches in a changing world.

Sustaining the budget of a church with full-time staffing expenses isn’t cheap. (and perhaps for some of us the business oriented nature of church is part of what we wanted to leave behind.)

At the same time, coordinating and organising any kind of community does take time, effort and resources. And I still think there’s an important role for pastors and ministers of all kinds.

I’ve been trying to live in the tension of these questions for many years now.

For several years I’ve personally been bi-vocational. Working a day or two in paid ministry and a few days in other spaces.

A few years ago I read a book by Brad Brisco that introduced me to a concept I liked even more than BiVo. The book was called 'Covocational Church Planting', and in this week's podcast episode you'll hear why covocational can be a more holistic approach. I am delighted to have Brad join me on this episode for a chat about the future of the church and how CoVocational staffing may play a role in that. More broadly we discuss how the shape and structure of church is interwoven with what we believe about God and the purpose of the church.

Brad has spent many years navigating these questions, and I think has some great wisdom to offer.


During the conversation Brad mentions some resources around the ‘five-fold/APEST’ gifts. You can check them out here in blog or video form:

https://www.missionalchurchnetwork.com/blog/the-importance-of-5-fold-apest

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RUUzOf8TPg

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There are plenty of people whose behaviour in the name of Jesus is the very thing that would often lead me to want to reject the Christian faith I’ve grown up with. Dave Andrews, on the other hand, is the kind of person who makes me feel the opposite. He speaks about Jesus in a way that makes me feel like I am encountering this story for the first time. I think this is largely because Dave has modelled a life around ‘sermon on the mount ethics’ more than most people you meet in the average church. I think you’ll see what I mean, as you listen. 

During our conversation we talk about Christian anarchy, Dave gives a pretty powerful critique of the early Christian creeds, and we also explore inclusive theology that works alongside and with people from different religious traditions. 

I want to give you a heads up that this conversation gets really heavy in places. Dave’s commitment to a radical following of Christlike ethics has meant he’s been rejected, excommunicated and banned from multiple Christian groups over the years. Dave shares openly about the ways some of these occurrences impacted his health, including thoughts he had around taking his own life. If that’s personally sensitive territory for you, I encourage you to be gentle with yourself as you listen, and please reach out to services like Beyond Blue or Lifeline (13 11 44) if you need to. 

If you have experienced any form of rejection or loss of Christian community, I hope listening to this gives you a sense of solidarity. And I want to emphasise again, our whole ethos in making this podcast is to let you know, regardless of what you believe, you are worthy of belonging. And you are not alone. 

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Hannah has seen people get gold teeth in prayer meetings. 

Mitch has been ‘bitterly disappointed by the miraculous’. 

Will used to pray out loud for long stretches of time….but now wants go on a silent retreat.

The three of them have a candid conversation about prayer, miracles, disappointment and hope, and if/how they ought to approach prayer these days.

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So stoked to have Joel Hollier and Steff Fenton return to the podcast! (If you haven’t listened to their previous episodes I strongly recommend you do so.)

Joel and Steff co-pastor New City Church and from its inception they have been seeking to create a trauma-informed faith community. We had a conversation about what that actually means.

What happens when churches are not consciously thinking about trauma and how to handle it? How do you approach bible and musical worship and prayer when the reality is that for some people, these are tied to traumatic religious experiences? And if you experienced trauma in a religious setting…is there hope of healing in one?

These are the kind of questions that ground this conversation. And obviously, it’s important to note that these are questions you journey with over the long term, rather than solve in one conversation. Having said that, there are definitely some really actionable and helpful thoughts and suggestions in this chat.

So for those of you who help shape church spaces — please listen and use this to inform your conversations and decisions.

And to those who have moved out of church spaces — I hope hearing this gives a glimmer of hope just knowing that there are people like Joel and Steff seeking to create safer spaces for faith and community.


Want more Joel and Steff goodness?

Listen to Joel Hollier on finding room at the table here.

Listen to Steff Fenton on gender expansive theology here. 

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Rob Buckingham is the pastor of Bayside Church in Melbourne. 

In many ways Rob is as Christian as they come. He loves Jesus, he loves scripture, he loves the church. He’s a pastor through and through. 

At the same time, by his own confession he has always been somewhat of a misfit — and if you have any experience of the pentecostal church in Australia, you may listen to some things he says and wonder how that is the world he is coming from (which we do touch on).

 As you will hear in this conversation Rob has asked many good questions over his faith journey — and on many occasions has changed his mind. And even more than that, has sought to take responsibility for where his former views have been harmful. In the back half of this conversation we talk quite a bit about his journey and Bayside Church’s journey towards fully welcoming and including all people, including those who are diverse in their gender and sexuality. It’s powerful to hear a fairly traditional leader with a pretty large platform acknowledge and apologise for past mistakes. I wish we saw this more often.

I would say Rob and his ministry are characterised by two values that this whole conversation essentially revolves around. A willingness to ask questions when aspects of faith and Christian teaching do not make sense. And a desire to create increasingly inclusive faith communities. I think those are deeply held values within our podcast community. And so, whilst there may be things you see differently to Rob, I hope this conversation inspires you to keep asking questions and to keep seeking broader, wider and deeper inclusion.  

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Hustle culture, busyness, sabbath and the struggle to pay attention. Plus the story behind the tattoo on Hannah's foot. 

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Hey friends, 

Happy new year!

For these first couple weeks of 2023 I’m going to be replaying a couple of older episodes. Our listenership has grown a lot since these were released and so many of you may not have heard these ones before. On that note, if you’ve got some downtime in January there are plenty of excellent episodes in the back-log. Now’s a great time to catch up on some if you’d like to.  

From January the 15th we will start releasing new episodes, and I am so excited about some of the guests, themes and ideas in the pipe-line for this new year ahead. 

So make sure you’re subscribed and if you haven’t already, jump in our Facebook group to connect with our growing online community. 

Here’s Christine Redwood on women, the Bible and the pulpit, first released in April 2022. 

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One week until Christmas day. Wild!

This will be the last episode of the podcast for 2022. We put something out every single week since launching in January. And I really feel like we’re just getting started here. We have such a beautiful sense of community growing around the pod, and I love hearing stories about the connections facilitated through these episodes. I know that they have created space for really courageous conversations to continue. So thank you for being part of that, as one of our listeners!  And stick around in 2023 as we continue to create conversations and resources to let any misfits listening know, you are not alone.

To wrap out the year, here’s a sermon I’ve dug out that I preached around Christmas in 2019. It’s a little different as I built it around three poems I wrote that year in the lead-up to Christmas. And so, it is kind of a hybrid poetic sermon of sorts. 

But looking back, the timing of it is really interesting in hindsight. For one, this was just on the brink of 2020. We had no clue what was coming. And in fact, as I make reference to in the sermon, the skies at the time were smoke-filled, as the Black Summer bushfires were in full effect. In many ways this was on the eve of what has become such a transitional point in history for us.

It was also at a transitional point for me personally, as I knew at this point in time that in 2020 we were going to start this alternative faith community called Meeting Ground. And at the time I remember really feeling like I had so much love for the community of the church I was on staff at — yet I also felt so strongly that the people I was most interested in being with had largely left church spaces like this one. 

Given the recent context of fracturing denominational lines and recent episodes on that I think this message is actually even more pertinent.

So, long story short, I wanted to share it with you, as some final thoughts to wrap out the year. It’s a message about what God is like, who God is with and how God chooses to be revealed. 

A God who draws near. 

Love to you my friends. I hope the final days of 2022 treat you kindly.

Will

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Alright friends, as promised here’s another conversation about the ramifications of the NSW & ACT Baptist rumblings of late.  
 
Recognising that listeners will have varied levels of engagement with this situation, here are the essential points you need to know upfront:

At the most recent Baptist Assembly, there were a large and complicated set of motions essentially requiring uniformity around a traditional view of marriage, and beginning to establish a mechanism to remove pastors and churches with theology that affirms same-sex marriage. 

On the same day, a set of motions were put forward about increasing the representation of women in leadership on boards and decision making bodies. 

In this conversation we talk about both of these things — as in many ways they do share some significant overlap. 

We tried to hold this conversation in a way that is useful for Baptists processing what is happening, as well as those watching on from other denominational spaces. Or those who have left institutional/denominational spaces but who may still feel like this process brings up old wounds.

I also want to say upfront there are many other voices that could have been a part of this conversation, and even though this is a longer episode, it’s still limited. 

I am conscious that there isn’t a queer voice on this episode sharing how this experience has impacted them; I’ve also felt conscious of not wanting to add to the burden and vulnerability of queer people by expecting them to open up their trauma around this. So many of you have given energy in that way many times and I want to say to you, this conversation is in no way, shape or farm a discussion about your worth, value or place at the table. Those are assumed truths here. I primarily chose these three guests because they are truly Baptist in the best sense of the word — and I have valued what they have modelled through an extremely uninspiring process.

Having said that, I recognise the limitations of our lenses and privileges - and if you are an LGBTQI+ person who has been impacted by this situation wanting to share some of your perspective (whether publicly or anonymously) please do message me.

Well, I think that’s probably all you need to know upfront. Here’s Christine Redwood, Josh Dowton, Hayley Bernhardt and I processing how we see this situation at this point in time.  

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It has always been our intention to create resources to support spiritual practice, as well as hosting honest conversations and interviews.

This episode is a little different to any of our previous ones, but it is intended to help you experience and enter the Advent season, with your mind, body and heart.

We've created an advent liturgy of sorts.

A collection of poetry, music and scripture, with space to pause, to breathe, to be.

At this time of year, many of us may feel like we particularly struggle to do these things.

And yet, one way to understand the Christmas narrative, is to see divinity, entering human spaces exactly as they are. Messy. Uncertain. Under the shadow of empire. On an ordinary night. Amidst the feeding troughs of animals.

God comes in vulnerability.

And so, as you listen to this short liturgical experience....

...whether you are cleaning up around your house, preparing dinner, driving laps around a shopping centre carpark or whatever the case may be, it is our hope that your awareness of divinity and love might sneak in to whatever cracks it can, in your life.

Almost all of the stunning music in this episode is used with grateful permission from  Bjear. His two Christmas albums ‘a Christmas with Bjear and friends volumes 1 and 2’ are available now. You can go and grab them on Bandcamp here and support an independent Australian artist this Christmas.

Are you ready? Let's begin...

(special thanks to Erin, Leksi, Ellaina, Caro, Emily, Becca, Hannah, Mel, Kerry and Sam for reading on this one, as well as Noah and Leo who had brief cameos).

Scripture:
Luke 1:46-55

Poetry:
Advent: Mary, Will Small
Sometimes I Wonder, Kaitlin Shetler

Songs:
Have Yourself a Merry Christmas, performed by Bjear & friends
The First Noel, performed by Bjear & friends
Christmas Eve, 1818, performed by Bjear & friends
Midnight, Christians, is the Solemn Hour, performed by Bjear & friends
O Holy Night, performed by Bjear & friends

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This is a conversation about what it’s like to go through faith crises, deconstruction, dark nights of the soul. etc etc. while pastoring a church. 

This is not an easy road. And I have not heard many people talk about it from the perspective of being a pastor. But I don’t think it’s uncommon. 

I hope that this conversation gives people a little more empathy for some of the tensions that many pastors deal with, trying to love a group of people with a diversity of opinions and perspectives, while going through their own process. 

If you are a pastor, I hope this makes you feel like your process is ok. And you too are not alone. 

Out of her own journey of change, Caro has shifted the way she leads and shapes church community. And in my opinion, what she describes sounds exactly like what I crave when I think of the church of tomorrow (which we’ve spoken a little bit about lately). It is well worth listening to this conversation just to hear how Caro approaches things like teaching the bible and nurturing community nowadays. 

So, my friends, enjoy this conversation. And if you happen to know a pastor like Caro. Send them a text. Or buy them a drink. 

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This week on the podcast I am joined by Tash Holmes to chat about creativity, spirituality, faith communities….and just so much good stuff. Tash is a singer, musician & writer based in Sydney, and just another wonderful human I am grateful to have become friends with in recent months. 

Tash shares their story of coming out while at Hillsong and maintaining faith even through some really horrible experiences. 

We speak about the place of creatives in the church and faith spaces generally, and talk about some of the tensions around how the arts can be viewed kind of like a ‘cherry on top’ when really, they are foundational in so many ways to what it means to be human.

After hanging out with Tash my heart felt full. I hope yours does also. 

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Hello friends.

Most of you probably know about the recent vote by the Baptist Association of NSW & ACT to kick out pastors and churches with theology that affirms same-sex marriage (and LGBTQI+ people more broadly).

If you want to get a little more context, here are two articles worth your time:

Here are Will's reflections the day after.

And here is an excellent article from Erin Sessions  that gets into a little more of the nitty gritty if you want more details.

This episode is a debrief chat the day after the vote with Mitch Forbes (who will lose his ordination), Hannah Gierhart (representing the perspective of someone watching this unfold from the 'outside') and Will (who was basically born into a Baptist church).

Listen and join us in the Facebook group after to share your thoughts. 

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Terms like post-evangelical and exvangelical have become increasingly prominent in recent years. I spoke about this in detail with David Gushee a few episodes back. 

But todays guest actually wrote a book called ‘the post evangelical’…almost 30 years ago, in 1995.

So Dave Tomlinson is not new to this conversation and in many ways he is a wonderful guide to those of us seeking a renewed and renovated faith that takes the modern world seriously and stands the test of time.

Dave is a vicar from London, a wonderful storyteller and truth seeker and has written many books including ‘how to be a bad Christian and a better human being’ which we discuss in this conversation.

Simon Buckingham Shum who is a part of meeting ground church joined me to co-host this one - as a Brit who has been following Dave’s work for a long time.

Simon and Dave make reference a few times to Greenbelt, which is an annual festival in the UK bringing together faith, justice, philosophy, art and a shared space for people from all walks of life. There’s a link in the shownotes if you want to learn more.

At the end of the conversation Dave gives one of the best definitions of hope I’ve ever heard.

This was a delightful conversation to have and I hope it encourages you.


Listen to Dave's talks at  Greenbelt here:
https://www.greenbelt.org.uk/talks-archive/#~tomlinson

Check out Dave's YouTube channel here:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpGqunuXebtPE1SaSlVjsdA

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Mitch Forbes returns to crack a beer with Will and debrief on their experience of seeing Rob Bell live in Sydney a couple weeks ago. 

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The Reverend Dr. Karina Kreminski is a Mission Coaching Consultant with Uniting Mission & Education. She has a doctorate in missional formation. She’s a writer. She’s a facilitator of ‘The Happiness Lab’ in Surry Hills. She’s co-founder of ‘Neighbourhood Matters’. And as she shares in this conversation, she helps to lead a fascinating Sunday gathering with a crew of people in her hood who come from all different world views and backgrounds to explore spirituality together. 

Karina joined Simon Nixon and I (Will) to continue our chat about the 'church of tomorrow' and what it might look like.

During the chat, we spoke about Karina’s own journey of evolving faith. We spoke about problematic language — and the tendency words like mission can have to sound colonising. We spoke about the significance of the local neighbourhood. And heaps more. 
 
I don’t feel like we gave Karina the easiest questions, and I’m particularly grateful for her honesty throughout the conversation around all the things she’s still trying to figure out. 

We want you to continue to be part of the conversation — so join us in our Facebook group and let us know what you think after listening. 

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Karl Hand is the pastor of Crave Church in Sydney, he has a PhD in the New Testament, and is a contributor to the recently updated Queer Bible Commentary with a chapter on the book of Ephesians.

During our conversation Karl described this beautiful gift that queer people have for using humour as a means of survival in the face of oppression. He describes how in a way Mardis Gras is a response to police brutality involving people dressing up and throwing a party — and when you think about it, this is an incredible example of subversively comical resistance.

It isn’t just police brutality that has been used against queer people historically — often scripture has been tragically used as part of the arsenal of weapons used to discriminate against them. Well, as Karl is going to show us in this conversation, at least one queer response is to re-read the text in brilliantly creative ways that see the humour, even through the trauma.

I’m wary of anyone who says there’s only one way to read the Bible. I firmly believe that if it’s a living word — like I was taught growing up — then we can’t stop it from speaking in different ways to different people at different moments in time. And this conversation with Karl has given me fresh ways to see next time I open my Bible. Listen in, and by the end I hope you’ll be able to say the same thing. If nothing else, may you be inspired by the beautiful creative resistance of queer people.

Check out the Queer Bible Commentary here.

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Many of us have experienced significant changes in our faith, spirituality or worldview  in recent years (which by the way is a normal and healthy thing). And of course, those changes are taking place right across human societies in the information age we are living through.  

I’ve heard people speculate that we’re living in a new church reformation — and I think there’s something to that idea. 

So what will the Church of tomorrow look like? We can think about this question as a purely imaginative exercise. Or we can play a role in answering it. By experimenting and starting our own communities. By having large, imaginative conversations where we dream about what’s possible — and then give it a go.

This episode is an attempt to begin a conversation like that.

Through spiritual misfits we want to help you know that you are not alone. It says that every week in the intro. So what could and can communities look like where people move through their processes of change and growth and doubt and faith and all the things together?

Simon Nixon had the idea for this one — and we also threw out the invitation to our Facebook group for anyone who wanted to join us on zoom while we recorded this conversation. It was excellent to see a number of your faces and to spend a little time outside of the recording just connecting with people and hearing where you’re from.

The facebook group is becoming a really great space, so if you’re not already in there feel free to join us, and from time to time we are planning to organise more live recordings you can join us for as well as other online meet-ups.

Let’s shape this thing together. 

Here is the first (of many) conversations about what the church of tomorrow could look like. 

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'Either Jesus would come back or Tom would be healed'

This week’s episode is a rather lovely and profound conversation between myself, Hannah and Bruce Macauley (who happens to be her Dad), that is rich in both personal and philosophical wisdom.

Bruce’s faith has changed a lot since the days he believed that Jesus would either return or heal his sons severe autism. 

It’s a journey involving hanging out with homeless people at a caravan park, listening to Richard Rohr sermons on CDs, reading 13th century monks and mystics and eventually heading over to the living school in Albuquerque to learn from father Richard in the flesh.

It was also pretty special to explore some of that journey with reflections from a father and daughter, who have both experienced significant faith change, though in different life stages and circumstances. 

Both Hannah’s parents Bruce and Kerry are incredibly Christlike and beautiful humans. The kind that help me to see the sacred in the very ordinary moments and the very difficult ones.

I'm so grateful for this sharing of some of their story, and I’m sure you will be also. 

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The Reverend Dr David Gushee is one of the world’s leading Christian ethicists as well as a pastor, author and advocate. He’s the author of a range of important books, notably including ‘Changing our Mind’, a landmark argument for LGBTQI+ inclusion in the church first published in 2014. More recently his book ‘After Evangelicalism’ has provided an invaluable guide for many pilgrims trying to find their way out of the maze of American evangelical culture without necessarily knowing where to go from there. 

David’s books have been so helpful for me, so I can’t even tell you how excited I was to have this conversation with him. 

We explored a range of important and interesting questions together, like:

• How do you extract yourself from evangelicalism while retaining your Christianity? 
• What might Christian humanism look like for post-evangelicals? 
• What does it mean to have theology informed by the holocaust?
• What does responsible, meaningful engagement with scripture look like coming out of spaces that have weaponised it in various ways?

David’s thoughts on all of these questions are well worth your time. He’s warm, intelligent, and gives me hope for the future. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. 

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A couple weeks ago there was a very special convergence of communities at Hamilton Baptist Church. I know many of you have listened to the episodes with Andrew Dodd and Scott Higgins sharing their stories and the story of Hamilton. If you haven’t listened yet add those to your up next. 

Anyway, Andrew invited me to come along to Hamilton and share some thoughts and poems. And Mitch Forbes and some of the New City Baps crew came along, as well as a few others from Meeting Ground church. So we ended up with a very special mix of people in the room, and honestly it was so lovely to meet a number of podcast listeners in person and to celebrate being a bit of a rag-tag group on the fringes of faith. Which can be a pretty fun place if you make it a party. 

Before the morning Andrew Dodd asked me if we could make this a ‘live’ podcast episode. So that’s what you’re about to hear. Andrew’s the host for this one. And there’s a bit of variety. First, a conversation with Mitch Forbes. Then we hear from one of our listeners, Alison. Shout-out to you Alison. And then the bulk of the episode is a mix of Andrew interviewing me and me sharing some poems around evolving faith and LGBTQI+ inclusion. 
 
This was a lot of fun and I hope you get the sense that you’re in the room with us experiencing the energy of it. 

On that note, if you would be interested in hosting or collaborating on some sort of spiritual misfits meet-up or live gathering, hit us up. Who knows what could happen? 

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Laurie Wevers is a spiritual director and a therapist, who works with people at the intersection of religion and trauma. Her work is informed by her own story, growing up within white evangelicalism and with narcissistic parents, yet eventually finding her way towards mystical and contemplative spirituality, including being a student at Richard Rohr’s Living School.

Of course, there are aspects to this story and this work that are deeply painful. Laurie calls these teachers. Our conversation left me with hope though, as Laurie is the kind of person committed to helping people walk into the new. There’s no going backwards, she told me, only progress, and the discovery of what that looks like for each different person. 

As I spoke to Laurie I felt like she was exactly the kind of guide that many people need as they navigate the disorienting and uncharted territory of leaving certain spaces, without knowing where to next. 

We spoke about what this journey might look like for people, and towards the end we got into some really interesting territory talking about what kind of communities might help facilitate this process as well.

You can check out more of Laurie’s work and connect with her here, otherwise I hope this conversation is helpful for you, where ever you are in your own journey.

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Earlier this week I was sitting in my lounge room, which generally looks like a tornado (aka children) has swept through the place, reading Thomas Merton on the contemplative life. At first, this seemed slightly humorous, as my life couldn't feel any further from the 'monastery' right now. 

But it got me thinking. And I started to ponder my favourite parable Jesus told about a mustard seed. Which potentially means something quite different to what it sounds like on the surface. 

And the parable about the mustard seed and the moment with Merton in my chaotic lounge room started to help me some big things in fresh ways. 

So here are some thoughts about all of that. Followed by a short 'examen' prayer I'm inviting you to join me for if you'd like to.

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Did you grow up within ‘purity culture’? 

If you’re unsure, here are some signs that maybe you did: 

• You or your friends had a crack at ‘kissing dating goodbye.’
• God’s love seemed entirely contingent upon your sexual abstinence
• You got the impression that boys/men were unable to control their sexual desires, and girls/women were entirely responsible for any ‘sexual immorality.’ 
• Sex outside of marriage felt like the worst and most shameful thing you could possibly do…
• …after getting married though, a flip would switch and sex would suddenly be an amazing gift from God! 

The epicentre of purity culture was evangelical America in the 90s. But it certainly made its way to Australian shores. 

In this week’s episode of the podcast, Hannah and I reflect on our own experiences of purity culture and the ‘hangover’ left in its wake. 

Towards the end of the episode we turn our attention towards the question of what we would like to pass on to our own kids when it comes to understanding sexuality and spirituality. Is there a Christian sexual ethic that ditches the shame while still treating our sexuality with care and sensitivity? 

We don’t claim to have an answer to this question. But we at least want to talk about it! 


We reference several books in this episode that are worth reading if you want a deeper dive after this discussion: 

Pure, Linda Kay Klein
Jesus and John Wayne, Kristin Kobes Du Mez
After Evangelicalism, David Gushee
The Deeply Formed Life, Rich Villodas

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Mitch and I riff on some questions from the Facebook discussion group and then get into a slightly more impassioned discussion about fracturing denominations, peoples obsession with sexuality and why 'sola scripture' logically leads to polarisation. 

Questions we discuss from the Facebook group: 
- Divinisation/theosis. Did God really become human, so we could become God? 
- Missing texts from the Bible. Are we missing out? 
- What did it mean for Jesus to be ‘fully human’? Was he limited to the thinking of the time and all the ignorance / belief systems that came with it? Or did he somehow still contain all the wisdom of the cosmos in that human body and chose not to share the knowledge that would come from future discoveries etc?
- What’s the deal with the Diocese of the Southern Cross? 

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Will does the majority of the interviews on this podcast, so Hannah decided it was time to flip the roles around and interview him. Will gave Hannah permission to play the role of investigative journalist and grill him.... there may not have been any 'gotcha' moments, but the wide-ranging conversation did include:

•  the origins of 'spiritual misfits'
• things Will regrets from his teenage years
• the biggest thing Will is struggling with spiritually
• thoughts about the creative process, 
• thoughts about staying positive when things feel like they're falling apart.

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Hello friends!

As I mentioned last week, with the birth of a new member of our family, I’ve dug out a couple of my favourite interviews from other shows I’ve hosted in the past, while I take a short break from doing interviews. This week’s conversation is truly top-shelf in my opinion and I’m sure you’ll learn something if you listen.

For this week, I’ve grabbed an interview my friend Benj Gould and I originally did for the Forming Church podcast. We interviewed a diverse range of people about what the future of the church might look like in a post-pandemic world (taking into consideration all the other cultural and technological shifts we have been living through in recent years).

This was a very special chat with Jo Saxton. Jo was born in London to parents who immigrated from Nigeria, and now lives in the US. She’s an internationally sought after author, speaker and leadership coach, and as you’ll see she’s just brilliant.

We spoke with Jo about grief, lament, and both racial and gender inequality, and how the church of the future must genuinely grapple with these things if it’s going to survive and thrive.

This interview was done in February 2021, and involves some COVID-specific reflections from that moment in time, but the majority of the conversation remains incredibly relevant for where we are right now.

This is a conversation about some topics that’d can be difficult to speak about, but remain so deeply important. Check it out, and then join us in our Facebook discussion group to share your thoughts.

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Joel McKerrow is a poet and educator. He speaks to large groups of people. He writes wonderful books. He occasionally paints skateboards or does wood carvings. He’s one of those people who is basically brilliant at everything he does. And he has a deep understanding of the winding pilgrimage that honest spirituality entails. 

A couple years ago Joel published a book called ‘Woven: a Faith for the Dissatisfied’. It’s a great book that most listeners of this podcast would deeply resonate with. Head to joelmckerrow.com after the episode to grab a copy.

I actually did this interview with Joel during the launch tour for the book. We were speaking about self-awareness and the spiritual journey, and we cover a whole lot of interesting ground during this chat. It is well worth your time. 

This interview originally appeared on the Inhabit podcast, which I use to make with my buddy Benj Gould. If you haven’t listened to that show, you may be interested in checking it out, there’s lots of good episodes there.

Content warning: Joel shares a story in this episode which involves sexual assault and abuse which may be sensitive for some listeners. Please take care while listening and reach out to a support service if you need help.

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Prepare for an experience with this one…featuring some tunes that are bound to get you moving! 

Simon Buckingham Shum is an academic who works at the intersection of education, technology and ethics. 

But, today we’re talking about his experiences as a part of a movement of alternative expressions of liturgy, worship and church back in the 90s in England.

I was fascinated the first time Simon shared about some of these experiences with me and although I was never really into electronic dance music, Simon was ultimately talking about creative pioneering and experimentation and trying to find new ways of engaging the sacred And that’s a bigger conversation than any particular musical genre. 

 In the decades since then Simon’s faith journey has seen its own evolutions, and he’s been in a few different spaces stylistically as well as theologically. 

So, in this conversation we’re following the threads of a particular story but we’re also talking about more broadly about the interwoven relationships between communities, creativity,  forms of worship and our underlying motivations.

Simon’s also written a really helpful reflective piece of writing about this journey. It’s immersive and includes pictures of event flyers from that time. That’s on our website here and I would recommend you read it alongside listening to this episode, as they play off each other.

After listening join us in our Facebook discussion group to share your thoughts and keep the conversation going. 


Music in this episode:

“I Lift My Cup (To The Spirit Divine”) by Gloworm 1992 (5 mixes) https://hoojchoons.bandcamp.com/album/i-lift-my-cup-to-the-spirit-divine

“Miserere” by Sue Wallace (composed for Visions services in early 90s). More tracks at: https://suevisions.bandcamp.com

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I think a lot of us have come to know the forms of Christianity that we don’t want. We’ve seen politicised versions of faith that we want nothing to do with. We’ve witnessed institutional failings, scandals and cover-ups that we want to distance ourselves from. But, sometimes it’s harder to answer the question, what now? How do I put the pieces back together?

A few years ago someone told me it’s not enough to know what you’re running away from. You’ll be sustained by knowing what you’re running towards. I think there’s a lot of wisdom in that. 

So, the question is,  are there more attractive, beautiful, faithful, life-giving ways of following Jesus? When I see people embodying and giving voice to authentic answers to this question it gives me great hope. 
 
 Graeme Anderson is one of those people. He’s a pastor at Northside Baptist in Crows Nest, Sydney and over many years his understanding of what it means to follow Jesus and to live in the kingdom Jesus described has evolved significantly. It’s moved from a knowledge-based, propositional faith to an embodied, open, generous way of being in the world that is attentive to what love might look like here and now. 

To help other people experience this Graeme’s written a book called Follow — and created a range of accompanying resources including a 4 week email devotional series. I’ve just finished it and was genuinely surprised at how refreshing, accessible and invitational it was. If you’re interested you can check it out at follow.org.au 

Here’s a conversation with Graeme about what following Jesus might look like when we feel our institutions have let us down. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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Cheryl Andrews is a social worker and counsellor, with a broad range of experiences in particular, working with young people and their families. She is someone who embodies warmth and wisdom in equal measure. And in this chat we’re mainly talking about shame, and the ways it can impact our spirituality, and what it might look like to develop a more shame-free faith.  

Cheryl brings reflections on her own journey as well as insights from her professional context in this chat, which I think is helpful for anyone who ever struggles with shame — which is surely most of us. 

So, listen, soak it in. And if helps you, pass it on to someone else who may benefit from these ideas. 

Join our Facebook discussion group -  a space to connect with other misfits and continue the conversations had in these episodes:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/spiritualmisfitspodcast. 

Want to reach out and let us know your thoughts or suggestions for the show? Send us a message here; we’d love to hear from you.

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There are theology textbooks and academic lectures, and they can be just fine, but is there any better place to discuss God, the universe and everything than over a drink with your mates at the pub? 

Well, the good Rev Mitch Forbes and I (Will) don’t think so, and there’s few things we enjoy more than sipping a delicious bev and externally processing what we’ve been reading, hearing and thinking about. 

So, we’ve decided to do our best to emulate the kind of sprawling chat we enjoy having at a pub in podcast form, so you can (hopefully) feel like we’re at a table together, clinking glasses and getting philosophical about divinity, humanity and the space in between. 

Crack a tinny and join us for a chat about whether or not it matters which God you believe in, what the reconciliation of all things might look like, and a little riffing on open theism and process theology. A large part of the conversation involved our responses to some excellent questions people asked in our new Spiritual Misfits discussion group on Facebook. (Yes, you should click that link and join the group. Then you can let us know what questions we should explore next time!)

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This week’s episode is a fantastic chat with Steff Fenton. Steff is a pastor at NewCity Church, along with Joel Hollier who you may remember from our earlier episode. 

On Steff’s website they introduce themselves as follows: “I’m a genderqueer pastor, writer, speaker and theologian helping people discover how endlessly loving God is.”

And the way Steff speaks about God is deep and wide and beautiful.  

We had a chat about gender expansive theology, and explored all kinds of interesting questions around gender, theology, church, scripture and all that jazz. 

 What I loved about this conversation was Steff took us beyond what it might look to accept or include trans and gender diverse people in church, to actually asking what role might these wonderful humans have in showing us something about what God is like? 

I think this episode contains an invitation, to see both God and humanity in a more expansive way. I hope that’s your experience, as you listen. 

Learn more about Steff's work here: https://www.steffenton.co

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Benjamin Hastings is an incredibly gifted songwriter and lyricist, most known for some of the songs he’s written with Hillsong, including ‘So Will I’, ‘O Praise the Name’ and ‘Highlands’. His songs collectively have more than 500 million streams.

Hillsong worship leaders probably  aren’t the image you typically think of when you hear the phrase ‘Spiritual Misfit’. But our conversation with Ben was a great reminder that human beings — whether on platforms or in lounge rooms — have questions. Live within mystery. And doubt. And faith. And mess. And beauty. 

This is what honest spirituality looks like. 

And Ben is a true spiritual seeker, not satisfied with easy answers, and deeply committed to bringing his whole mind, heart and being to the search for deep truth.

Ben shared some of his own story with us — about the unravelling and the searching and the creative process in the midst of it all. And it was such a joy.

And as an incredibly special treat, Ben played us two of our favourite songs of his at the end of our chat. Stick around to the end of the episode and you’ll hear these songs played exclusively for our Spiritual Misfits community.

Check out more of Ben’s work here: https://www.benjaminhastingsmusic.com/

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This episode is a chat with Mandy Smith. Mandy is a pastor and author of multiple books including The Vulnerable Pastor and Unfettered — a book about imagining a childlike faith beyond the baggage of western culture. That book has a foreword by Walter Brueggemann. And if you know who Walter is, you know that’s one of the finest endorsements you can get. 

I have really loved listening to the way Mandy speaks about Christian faith because it has reminded me how beautifully and radically upside down and unconventional Jesus is, in so many ways. In this episode we talk a lot about what it means to approach faith with a child-like posture, with an open heart that listens to our bodies and emotions and intuitions and says ‘yes’ to what might just be the prompts of the spirit in our ordinary, daily lives. 
 
 We also speak about the difference between ‘empire ways’ of doing things and ‘kingdom ways’ of doing things. We talk about the violence that life under the empire can do to our human-ness, and the way Jesus wants to restore our humanity

Chatting to Mandy felt like layers of reminders and invitations. To see the value in what it means to be human. To start the day with an open heart. And to say yes. To God, to life, to love.

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Hello friends and welcome back to the Spiritual Misfits podcast,

This episode is the second half of one extended conversation I had with Andrew Dodd and Scott Higgins. If you haven’t listened to the previous episode where Scott and Andrew shared their own journeys towards inclusive theology and the story of Hamilton Baptist Church, I strongly recommend you do so. 

 In case you don’t or if you need a recap, here’s an outline of the story so far: 

Scott Higgins wrote a paper back in the 90s giving an overview of different Christian perspectives on sexuality. In many ways this was the beginning for him of coming to see theological diversity in this area. A few years down the track and he’s asked to read a statement to his church affirming that Baptists hold to a traditional view of marriage. Scott couldn’t bring himself to read it, but instead asked the church who would be interested in taking a few weeks to explore some diverse understandings of sexuality, marriage and Christian ethics. Every hand went up. 

As the church began to have these conversations a number of queer people were drawn to come along — and ended up staying in the church. The combination of fresh theological framing alongside real and loved members of their community played a key role in what was then Edgeworth Baptist becoming LGBTQI affirming.

While this was happening there was also a conversation beginning with Hamilton Baptist Church where Andrew Dodd was the pastor. This conversation was about the two churches merging. This made sense for a lot of reasons, though Edgeworth had one non-negotiable. If the churches were going to merge, LGBTQI+ people needed to be fully included and embraced in the life of the new church. So the two churches went on a process together over around 12 months, testing the waters of their relationship so to speak, before officially deciding to proceed with the merge. At this point the vast majority of people were onboard. This doesn’t mean it was without cost or difficulty and some people left, though this was generally done in a gracious way. 

At the end of the last episode Andrew shared the story of their first service together as a new church, and the powerful moment when communion was served by a queer member of the congregation. What was powerful wasn’t so much this person sharing out communion. It was the fact that it didn’t matter that this person was sharing out communion. Because they were welcome as much as anyone else. 

So, in this next part of the conversation I talked to Andrew and Scott about what they learned from this journey that might inform other churches. 
 
 There’s another element of this story that’s important. The change Andrew and Scott have led at Hamilton — is not one that everyone is ready for. And in Andrew’s words Hamilton is now in a somewhat precarious position within the NSW Baptist denomination.

So we talk a little about change,

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Here’s a conversation that weaves together multiple threads into one really powerful story. It’s a story about change and about the process of change — at an individual level as well as in a broader community. 

 Scott Higgins and Andrew Dodd are friends, pastors, and together help lead the community of Hamilton Baptist Church. This is their story of moving towards LGBTQI+ affirming theology. It’s also a story of merging two churches into one. And it’s the story of bringing those two Baptist churches through a process integrating theology, personal stories and pastoral sensitivity to become one church where everyone is genuinely welcomed and embraced, including those of diverse gender and sexualities. 
 
Depending on where you listen from this might not seem like a big deal — but in terms of their state denominational context Scott and Andrew were kind of the first ones to do this. And going first always carries extra layers of risk and complexity.  

Scott, Andrew and I spent a couple hours together discussing this story because there’s so much to learn from it — and so, next week’s episode is actually the continuation of this one. Essentially what you’re about to listen to is primarily about the story of Scott, Andrew and Hamilton Baptist Church. The next episode zooms the lens out and asks how might this inform other contexts. 

But for this week let’s start with the story. Join me, Scott and Andrew sitting at Andrew’s table in Warabrook.  

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After 15 years in pastoral ministry Simon Nixon found his beliefs and approach to ministry radically shifting. We explore what that looked like in this conversation, and talk a little about one of the positive outcomes: the formation of a new community called Fireside, another safe space for spiritual misfits.

The Church at large is in a significant time of transition. I believe we’re going to see more decentralised and organic expressions of faith communities in the years to come. Many of us, including Simon and I, have benefited from digital access to a range of voices and thinkers who have helped us see faith afresh (and I hope that for listeners of this show that’s also what’s taking place here). But what does it look like to pair our access to voices who may be far away from us with flesh and blood communities, in our local neighbourhoods? Simon and I are both interested in this question, so we explored some thoughts around the landscape of what that might look like. 

Simon’s also studying counselling at the moment and one of the things we touched on was a concept in the counselling space called ‘unconditional positive regard’ — it provides a beautiful lens for thinking through community formation and we explore this a little in this conversation also.  

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There can often be this perception that faith is just about belief. And when your beliefs feel strong, your faith is strong. 

This can mean that on the days when you feel uncertain, unsure or disoriented, you begin to blame yourself for having a weak faith. 

But, what if the whole time we’ve been conceiving of faith in a manner that is a little distorted? 

In his book ‘The Sin of Certainty’, Pete Enns puts it this way: 

"I believe that the Bible does not model a faith that depends on certainty for the simple fact that the Bible does not provide that kind of certainty. Rather, in all its messy diversity, the Bible models trust in God that does not rest on whether we are able to be clear and certain about what to believe. In fact, the words “belief” and “faith” in the Bible are just different ways of saying “trust.” And trust works, regardless of where our knowing happens to be."

When you stop thinking about faith as believing certain ideas, and instead begin to think about trusting — in God’s goodness and love — it can totally change the lens you’re looking through. 

 Here are a set of affirmations for when you need reminding about this alternative lens.

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A couple episodes back Mitch Forbes and I (Will) had a chat about heaven, hell and universal salvation. We spoke about 3 different views of hell that have existed from the beginning of the Christian church and our journeys towards the view that an all-loving and all-powerful God actually can and will reconcile and renew all people.

Here Mitch and I continue that chat. If you haven’t already it’s probably worth going back and listening to the previous episode with Mitch before this one. There is more assumed knowledge this time round. 

Fair warning, the first half of this chat is a little heavy on the philosophy and theology and may not be everyone’s cup of tea. If you like sitting in a pub and philosophising over a beer and quoting theologians you will probably dig it. If that’s not your jam, there’s no judgment here. (See what I did there?)

In the second half of the chat though we do turn the conversation towards the real world implications of our views around eternity and salvation. We get a little more ‘down to earth’ around the difference these beliefs can make when you wake up on Monday morning.

Multiple times throughout this conversation Mitch references this beautiful verse from 1 John 4:16: ‘God is love. Whoever lives in love, lives in God, and God in them.’

If you don’t take anything else away from this maybe those words are more than enough.

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