The Great and Secret Knowledge
Thanks for listening to The Great and Secret Knowledge: A Speculative Fiction Podcast! In this episode, Lindsey and Jeff cover Part 5: Ketterley and Part 6: Wave.
Below you'll find our plugs, links, recommendations, and links to stuff from this week's episode!
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Fancast as Raphael
Rashida Jones in Silo
Roxann Dawson in Voyager
Fancast as Ketterley
Roger Delgado in Doctor Who
Mads Mikkelsen
Fancast as Arne-Sayles
Chris Hemsworth in Bad Times at the El Royale
Jesus Christ Superstar guy
Anthony Hopkins
Mads Mikkelson
Links
Erica Knapp on Everything is Awesome
Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell
Doctor Who "The Talons of Weng-Chiang"
Recommendations
Camp Damascus by Chuck Tingle
Gideon the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir
Never watch Knock Knock
Plugs
Lindsey's podcasts The Kurt Locker Cool Breeze over the Mountains Historical Hotties Jeff's podcasts Shattered Worlds RPG Everything is Awesome with Jeff and ? Omniversal Escapades
James Lark (composer, podcaster) wrote the theme song for the show Licensed for show use, copyright 2024 Here’s James website for all his activities:
Extended Notes
Part 5: Ketterley
are you familiar with Berlioz? Hector Berlioz
"inside the house there was a smell of rain, clouds and air, a smell of limitless space. A smell of the sea"
berlioz is "the soundtrack of catastrophe"
Ketterly stopped academia 15 years earlier "Academia was never very welcoming to me. I had the wrong sort of ideas and the wrong sort of friends.’"
MRS thinks maybe AS wont talk to him cuz hes ashamed
"Ketterley gave a short, sharp, humourless laugh. ‘Hardly. Laurence has no shame. He’s just perverse. If someone says white, he’ll say black. If you say you want to see him, then he won’t want to see you. That’s just the way he is.’"
we learn about MRSs journals - hes a very good record keeper
we get MRSs opinion of AS
On not liking the word Conjuring:
"Of course I object to the fucking word,’ he said irritably. ‘You’re suggesting that Laurence was some sort of stage magician and we were all his wide-eyed dupes. It wasn’t like that at all. He liked you to argue with him. He liked you to put the rationalist point of view.’
interesting cult where its oky to challenge the leader
he would destroy you verbally tho which is textbook cult behavior
Sylvia Dagostino was devoted. AS told her to break ties with parents and she did
"There was absolutely no advantage to him in cutting her off from her family. It didn’t benefit him in the slightest. He did it because he could. He did it to cause anguish for her and her parents. He did it because he was cruel.’"
Interesting to see K talk about this, as if he isnt cruel. Is he judging AS? or just speaking facts
"I don’t like you very much,’ he said.
I laughed. ‘I can live with that,’ I said"
why did K think it was a labyrinth?
K explains - AS claimed not to need a ritual, but the others did
Also Sylvia could slip in and out
could K do it? he felt it and once he saw it
K asks the scariest question in media "Does anyone know youre here?"
the suspense!
a twelve minute ritual? not likely
hes also feeling suspense while writing it!
MRS just thinks K is lying, not that he's about to murder him
interesting to get MRS first impressions of the House
K says some wack stuff
"Forgive me for not saying anything before now,’ he smiled, ‘but I really am delighted to see you. A young, healthy man is just what I wanted.’"
this is his supervillain moment - this guy that isnt cruel
PART 6 - Wave
P vomits, realizes K is not his friend
He is my enemy
"I had forgotten, but the Other remembered. I could see now that he was apprehensive in case one day I remembered. He called me Piranesi so he would not need to use the name Matthew Rose Sorensen. He tested me by speaking words such as ‘Battersea’ to see if they sparked any memories. I had been incorrect when I said that Battersea was nonsense. It was not nonsense."
multiple revelations
this is how it hits when you realize your partner is cheating or stealing from you
how to make sure i dont forget?
for his own advantage!
K needs a slave to do his work for him
he's wishing he hadn't warned K about the flood
I could kidnap K and tie him up
killer monologue wink
"maybe i'll give him water, maybe i will not
Perhaps I will give him water to drink. Perhaps I will not. Perhaps I will say to him: ‘Soon you will have plenty of Water!’ And on Thursday he will watch the Tides pouring in through the Doors and he will scream and scream. And I will laugh and laugh. I will laugh as long and as loud as he laughed at Matthew Rose Sorensen when he brought him here …This is where I lost Myself."
P fantasizes about killing K
he gets food and thinks about what he read
MRS had this stuff happen to him and he resides within P
"I placed my hand on my chest. Hush now! I said, Do not be afraid. You are safe. Go back to sleep. I will take care of us both"
"MRS thought these things. 'As far as I can tell, Matthew Rose Sorensen was in his right mind when he wrote them. Neither he nor I had ever been mad.'"
the Other is the one trying to drive him mad, not 16
he considers 16s last message, realizes hes probably Ks only victim
"why had 16 come?
Because she was looking for Matthew Rose Sorensen. Because she wanted to rescue him from the slavery of the Other. I saw it clearly now. It is 16 that is my friend and not the Other"
"16 was patient, resolute and ingenious. 16 was still looking for me"
he discovers that someone wiped away Ps warning about the flood for 16 as well as her question to P
P decides that K did it
he thinks K is intentionally tricking 16 into dying in the flood
he moves the deads bones
he stashes his journals high up
he gathers up all his rain bowls
in the hall of horned giants he sees a bag full of gear:
"I took out all the contents. They were as follows:
• a Gun
• a quantity of folded material made of a dense, heavy plastic. This was by far the largest object in the bag; it
filled most of the bag and was coloured blue, black and grey.
• a small cylindrical container with a secure lid. This contained other small objects the purpose of which was unclear.
• a thing like a slice of a larger cylinder cut down at an angle, with a yellow hose coming out of it
• two black plastic rods extendable to a length of approximately 2 metres
• 4 black paddle-shapes"
he thinks maybe the house left the bag for him
he decides its the Others because theres a gun
day of the flood
he eats some soup
he tries to guess where K would send her
"I remembered the words of the Prophet:
The closer 16 gets, the more dangerous Ketterley will become.
My hope was that I could find 16 before she reached the Other"
he goes back and forth between boat area and the first vestibule
the Other appears!
Other is dressed casually and wearing a life jacket
P flllows him to the boat, still no sign of 16
tides are beginning to converge
Other pumps up the boat
waves start thudding
he realizes 16 is clever and may be watching
"I had a mental image of both 16 and Myself hiding in the First Western Hall, both waiting for the other one to appear. I could not afford to remain hidden any longer: I stepped down from the Niche and walked towards the Other"
the gun is out in the open
Other is angry
P starts quoting his journal at the other
"I visited him in mid-November,’ I said. ‘It was just after four, a cold blue twilight.’"
other isnt listening, starts giving orders
K says to bash Raphael (16) in the head
P keeps quoting
"The afternoon had been stormy,’ I said, ‘and the lights of the cars were pixelated by rain; the pavements collaged with wet black leaves.’"
"When I got to his house I heard music playing,’ I said. ‘A requiem. I waited for him to answer the door to an accompaniment of Berlioz.’"
K is getting spooked
"What are you talking about?’ he asked again in a voice made hoarse with fear.
‘Battersea,’ I said. ‘You asked me once if I remembered Battersea. And now I do.’"
K tries to distract P by calling him Matthew
"He laughed suddenly, an odd sound: hysteria masquerading as relief. ‘No, no!’ he said. ‘You don’t get me that easily. Those aren’t your words. They’re someone else’s. You don’t really remember. Raphael put you up to this. Really, Matthew, how stupid do you think I am?’"
he goes for the gun
P kicks away the gun
K asks what hes going to do
16 calls Ks name
she says shes looking for MRS
K grabs P and says here he is
P warns her about Ks gun
waves rush in
16 steps out
K tries to hit P
P gets loose, runs to 16
he takes her hand, they run to the wall
he climbs up the Father and son
she's too short to follow
he comes down and pushes her higher up
the make it 20odd feet up
cracking sounds
K is shooting at them!
P warns him to get in the boat
they have to move to avoid the shots
they hide behind statues back
P peeks out, sees K going to boat
hes wading, boat is swirling
boat is dancing around the hall
K is hopelessly swimming after it
boat comes at him then flies away
P shouts for him to climb
a big wave crashes and the spray goes way up
if they hadnt hidden from shots they would have been thrown
destiny?
"The Spray caught the Sun; it was as if someone had suddenly thrown a hundred barrelfuls of diamonds into the Hall"
K eats it
boat keeps whirling about
waves continue, time passes
they dont speak to each other cuz its too loud
waves settle down
"16 had large dark eyes and an elfin face. Her expression was solemn. She was a little older than me – about forty, I thought. Her hair was black with wet.
‘You are Six … You are Raphael,’"
she says hes MRS and that she doesnt know him
shes here because shes a police officer
P thinks theyre both freaked by Ks death
she tends to his wound
it Looks like he was hurt by shrapnel, not a bullet
she cant get down so he goes off to find something to help her
he collects some gear, returns to 16
he feeds her seaweed
he ties nets together and makes a web she can climb down
"Our clothes were plastered to our bodies with wet. My hair – which is dark and curly – was as full of droplets as a Cloud. I rained every time I moved"
he talks to birds
"It’ll be gone soon,’ I told them. ‘Don’t worry.’
‘What?’ asked Raphael, startled. ‘I don’t understand.’
‘I was talking to the birds,’ I said. ‘They’re alarmed by the great quantities of Water that are everywhere. I’m telling them that it’ll soon be gone.’"
she wonders why he talks to birds, he mentions that she did too
she asks why he scrubbed her writing
he says because K said she was evil and would make him go mad
she says we should go home, he can come to her place and then she can take him home
he says i am home
she doesnt respond
she tells him why he should leave
"There’s something I have to tell you,’ she said. ‘I don’t know if you remember this, but you have a mum and a dad. And two sisters. And friends.’ She gazed at me intently. ‘Do you remember?’
I shook my head.
‘They’ve been looking for you,’ she said. ‘But they didn’t know the right place to look. They’ve been worried about you. They’ve been … ’ She looked away again to find the right words to express her thought. ‘They’ve felt pain because they didn’t know where you were,’"
"You don’t think of yourself as Matthew Rose Sorensen?’
‘No,’ I said.
‘But you have his face,’ she said.
‘Yes.’
‘And his hands.’
‘Yes.’
‘And his feet and his body.’"
Raphael is not contentious, P likes it
she asks if he would make a visit to MRSs family and he could come back
he explains that he takes care of the bones
shes surprised to hear there are other people
shed like to see the others to id them
hes like oh theyre dead
shes all what?
he thinks they were dead before he got there, but he cant be certain
he asks if she has dead
do they visit them and take them offerings
then he says he has to collect Ks body
she says theres plenty of time
she touches his shoulder
he starts crying
it must be MRS inside him crying
he asks if she'll come back
she will come back
she asks if he'll think about seeing MRSs family
he will
"My last thought before I fell asleep was: He is dead. My only friend. My only enemy"
he finds K
he explains how he'll treat the corpse
"I will put you in good order and you can rest in the Sunlight and the Starlight. The Statues will look down on you with Blessing"
P finds the boat
"I wish that you had saved him,’ I told it.
I did not feel that it responded in any way. It seemed drowsy, dozing, only half alive. Without the Rushing Waters to animate it, it was no longer the devil that had danced on the Waves, first mocking Dr Ketterley and then abandoning him"
Raphael asks what she should call him. he starts to say Piranesi but falters. K used to call him that but K was a dick
R tells him how she found him
an owl flies in. P has never seen a real live one
R interviews Sayles. He explains what happened to MRS
P talks about how things from the older world are represented by statues
she promises to come back whether he visits the other world or not
he gives R a tour of the halls
"She said, ‘It’s such an astonishing place. A perfect place. I saw some of it while I was looking for you, but I kept having to stop at the doors to write out the directions back to the minotaur room. It got very time-consuming and frustrating and of course I didn’t dare go too far in case I made a mistake.’"
he remembers that early on he had to use chalk to mark his path - more internal wrestling with truth
R asks if she can take photos. P says yes and thinks how nice it is tthat shes respectful of the house
P shows her the people of the alcove.
"Raphael regarded them gravely. She gently rested her hand on one of the bones – the tibia of one of the males. It was a gesture conveying comfort and reassurance. 'Don’t be afraid. You are safe. I am here.'"
she apologizes for his experience.
"I was astonished, even a little alarmed. No one has ever been as kind to me as Raphael; no one has ever done more for me. That she should apologise seemed to me inappropriate. ‘No … No … ’ I murmured and I put up my hands to fend off her words"
The two types of being sorry
he wants to avoid the thought that they were murdered.
"Mostly I wanted Raphael to come away from them so that I could stop thinking of them the way she thought of them – as murdered – and go back to thinking of them the way I always had before – as good, and noble, and peaceful."
he shows her the Coral Halls
"There are Figures horned with coral, or crucified on coral branches, or stuck through with coral arrows. There is a Lion enmeshed in a cage of coral and a Man holding a Little Box. The coral has grown so profusely over his Left Side that half of him appears to be engulfed in red- and rose-coloured flames, while the other half is not."
she expresses appreciation that there are no people in the house. he asks if she doesnt like the people in her own halls.
"Don’t you like the people in your own Halls?’ I asked, puzzled.
‘I like them,’ she said, with no very great enthusiasm. ‘Mostly I like them. Some of them. I don’t always get them. They don’t always get me.’"
he considers why one might not want to be around people.
"Perhaps even people you like and admire immensely can make you see the World in ways you would rather not. Perhaps that is what Raphael means."
he resolves to leave with Raphael.
"I have returned all of the Dead to their allotted places. Today I walked through the Halls as I have done a thousand times before. I visited all my most beloved Statues and as I gazed on each one, I thought: Perhaps this will be the last time I look on your Face. Goodbye! Goodbye!"
what must it be like to leave your entire life behind?
he puts all his ornament back in his hair. Raphael seems astonished.
"I took one last look at the Eternal House. I shivered. Raphael took my hand. Then, together, we walked into the corridor."
Recommendations
Camp Damascus
First legit novel - horror
not erotica
he's autistic!
talk about horror?
X-Files
Making a Murderer