Welcome to the One CA Podcast. Today we have Colonel Jay Liddick, CA Commandant, and Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson, Chief of Concept Development, discuss CA in large scale combat operations.
COL Liddick and LTC Dickerson co-authored with Major Linda Chung a paper titled, "Calibrating Civil Affairs Forces for Lethality in Large Scale Combat Operations. Published in Small Wars Journal, the authors argue that, in the future operating environment of Multi-Domain Operations, "CA must counter enemy hybrid warfare in the expanded battlefield, specifically in operational and tactical support areas, as part of an integrated security team through civil reconnaissance, civil network analysis, and civil network development."
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Transcript:
00:00:00 SPEAKER_00
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00:00:29 SPEAKER_02
You know, I think, again, as a military, and rightfully so, we're continually looking for technological advantages.
00:00:37 SPEAKER_02
But, you know, even with AI and the things that have been done, or that have been done in the past and are, you know, working on the future, I just don't believe you can never remove the human -to -human contact. We're never going to be able to put just a sensor out there that understands exactly what people are thinking, who key players are. properly engage and address an operational environment that takes face -to -face, on -the -ground engagement to gain understanding and to influence people.
00:01:19 SPEAKER_01
Hi, and welcome to the 1CA Podcast. I am John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined by a couple special guests from the Army CA proponent down in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. We have Lieutenant Colonel Thurman Scott Dickerson, U .S. Army, currently serving as the Chief of Concept Development at the CA Proponent. He began his career as an armor crewman in 1996 and was commissioned as a Medical Service Corps officer in 2000 from Radford University. He holds a Master of Science degree in Criminal Justice from Radford and a Master of Arts in Strategic Security Studies from the National Defense University. Since 2008, Colonel Dickerson has served in... Diverse conventional and special operations command and staff positions within civil affairs, to include ARSENT CMO Officer Forward, Brigade Executive Officer, and 18th Airborne Corps Deputy G -9. He has deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan multiple times, Qatar, Yemen, and served a one -year hardship tour in Kuwait. Colonel Jay Liddick, U .S. Army, currently serves as a civil affairs commandant. He received his commission as an engineer officer from Indiana University of Pennsylvania in 1995. and holds a Master of Strategic Studies from the U .S. Army War College and a Master of Arts degree in International Relations from Webster University. Since 2004, Colonel Liddick has served in diverse command and staff positions within civil affairs to include Human Resources Command CA Branch Chief, Deputy Brigade Commander, and the Civil Affairs Advisor Irregular Worker Integrator at the U .S. Army Peacekeeping and Stability Operations Institute. He is deployed to the Dominican Republic, Bosnia, Iraq, Colombia, Afghanistan and Indonesia, and had a one -year tour in Honduras. Colonel Dickerson, Colonel Liddick, thank you very much for being on the One State Podcast, and welcome.
00:03:05 SPEAKER_02
Hey, thank you, John. Really appreciate the opportunity to talk to you and the platform to talk about something we love, civil affairs.
00:03:12 SPEAKER_01
Gentlemen, we wanted to talk today about what's happening within civil affairs and how it relates to large -scale combat operations. And this discussion is really born out of an article that you wrote together with a third author. I'll note it was Linda Chung, Captain Promotable, who by now may be a major, who is also working. Oh, that's great. Well, please tell her hello and congratulations for co -authoring this article with you.
00:03:44 SPEAKER_02
We will. She's an awesome officer.
00:03:46 SPEAKER_01
That's good to hear. I'm glad to hear that also and see that you and other officers are putting out. and some thought leaders within the branch putting out some articles like this. The three of you published in Small Wars Journal an article entitled Calibrating Civil Affairs Forces for Lethality in Large -Scale Combat Operations. For analytic to you, what is going on in sort of the big picture in the Army, and what led you to wanting to write this article?
00:04:27 SPEAKER_02
unprecedented, and I think you'd have to go back to post Vietnam, late 70s, early 80s, you know, creation of TRADOC, and to see similar major changes. The Army's looking at all its processes of how do we modernize, how do we be more agile in adapting and creating the force that's going to be required in the future operating environment.
00:05:01 SPEAKER_02
But with change, there's opportunity. And from a civil affairs perspective and things that we'll get into further as we have this discussion, it's really given us the right point to take a hard look at our force and see what does the civil affairs force of the future need to look like to be integrated at an echelon to help the Army win.
00:05:07 SPEAKER_02
that we'll get into further as we
00:05:19 SPEAKER_02
of the future need to look like to be integrated at an echelon to help the Army win. You know, in competition, but like we talked about, large -scale compound operations. and then getting back into returning to competition. I tell everyone when I speak, the Army's number one warfighting challenge is situational understanding. And my personal and professional perspective on that is, in large part, it's because civil affairs have not been able to deliver our peace to situational understanding, which is, you know, providing a commander that in -depth understanding of the civil environment. article is a thought piece on things that we need to do to adapt specifically in large -scale general combat operations. But I can tell you as a proponent, we're looking hard across force modernization, training, and doctrine, and even personnel, how we develop people, of how do we provide the commanders the right civil affairs capability to need to understand the civil environment, the human geography, if you will.
00:06:44 SPEAKER_01
So, sir, your article that was published in the Small Wars Journal, it depicts the evolution going from combined arms warfare to joint warfare to what we now call hybrid warfare. What would you say about, what is it about hybrid warfare that is fundamentally changing the way that civil affairs forces need to prepare to fight in the future?
00:09:55 SPEAKER_01
Are those actions that adversaries are taking in hybrid warfare mainly in the civil domain? Are they mainly within the wheelhouse of civil affairs forces? Yes. I mean, specifically, I don't want to use specific examples, but specific actions that are being done are proxy forces,
00:10:10 SPEAKER_02
that are being done are proxy forces, special purpose forces that are utilized by a lot of conflict and also in conflict that essentially weaponize forces of the population, create the force multiplier effect for their actions. and give credence to certain political narratives that are used to undermine the will of the adversary.
00:10:26 SPEAKER_02
certain political narratives that are used to undermine the will of the adversary.
00:12:41 SPEAKER_01
So, gentlemen, does that mean that this renewed focus on hybrid warfare, does that require a shift in CA core tasks?
00:14:44 SPEAKER_01
That's good to hear.
00:14:44 SPEAKER_02
That's good to hear.
00:14:45 SPEAKER_01
I just know it takes two to three years to develop something and get it approved, and if a hybrid worker was in mind when that was drafted.
00:14:46 SPEAKER_02
know it takes
00:14:54 SPEAKER_02
It was to a degree, but I don't think to the degree we're able to bring to it with what we're working through with our force modernization assessment that we'll get into.
00:15:42 SPEAKER_01
Okay, good. Gentlemen, could you describe, please, how civil affairs forces could assist land force commanders in securing support areas? And how do we then employ the civil components protection capabilities?
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force multiplier for protection through
00:17:02 SPEAKER_02
worry about security.
00:22:30 SPEAKER_01
Ladies and gentlemen, you've been listening to an interview with Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson, Chief of Concept Development of CA Proponent, and Colonel Jay Liddick, the CA Commandant. When we come back from the break, we'll talk with the gentlemen about how they see civil affairs as an ISR platform and some ideas for improving the network analysis capability. We'll be right back.
00:23:07 SPEAKER_01
The Civil Affairs Association continues to expand its value to its members. The Association recently established the Professional Publications Advisory Board and a supporting research library. Founded by the late Dr. Kurt Muller, retired Army colonel, the CA Association Professional Publications Advisory Board comprises scholars and policy and publications experts to assist civil affairs professionals in publishing papers and articles in established professional journals. As a service to association members, the board also provides a research library to conduct research on academic or professional papers. Check out the website to find out which board members may be of greatest help and request their assistance by emailing the board. This is an amazing resource that you will find in many other associations. If you're not yet a member of the Civil Affairs Association, go online to civilaffairsassoc .org and join today.
00:24:20 SPEAKER_01
and our interview with Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson and Colonel Jay Liddick from the CA Commandant's Office. Gentlemen, how do you see civil affairs as an ISR platform as you argued in this paper that was published in Small Wars Journal?
00:26:18 SPEAKER_02
takes face -to -face, on -the -ground engagement to gain understanding and to influence people.
00:26:29 SPEAKER_01
And it's connected to a soft truth, I think the first one, that humans are more important than hardware.
00:26:33 SPEAKER_02
Absolutely. Yes.
00:26:35 SPEAKER_01
So, gentlemen, in my few years in civil affairs, I've seen and heard about a range of tools and approaches to civil network analysis. And how do you think that CA forces need to improve what we do for that network analysis capability?
00:31:06 SPEAKER_01
is in line with, we started this discussion saying that focus more on the how and not the what. And what you just mentioned connects with a previous interview we had with a gentleman named Nick Crowley who did some work in Iraq with human terrain. Nick had talked about how civil affairs forces need more of a process. So we have the SIM process. We have those steps right now. And it ends with analysis and then goes from there. You have something, you produce it, and then you disseminate. And that cycle continues over and over and over again. He was arguing in the discussion that there's not as much information telling the CA forces how to do that work. Yeah.
00:33:40 SPEAKER_01
tied to that, I guess, gentlemen, what do you think that civil affairs forces should be doing to better integrate our reports and the civil information that come out of this process to support the ground force commander staff processes? And I guess, you know, to improve that, why is that not happening now?
00:39:23 SPEAKER_01
Yes, sir. Well, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time. Ladies and gentlemen, Lieutenant Colonel Scott Dickerson, the Chief of Concept Development at the CA Proponent, and Colonel Jay Liddick, Civil Affairs Commandant. Gentlemen, thank you very much for being on the 1CA Podcast.
00:39:40 SPEAKER_02
Hey, thank you, John, again. Really appreciate the platform.
00:40:01 SPEAKER_01
Thank you for spending some time with us. Please subscribe and come back for another installment of 1CA. Until then, be safe and secure the victory.
00:40:17 SPEAKER_04
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