Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today we have Jamie Schwandt, Major in the Army Reserve, talks about swarm intelligence, swarm learning, red teams, and how they relate to Civil Affairs. We also discuss lessons learned from Ender's Game. Major Schwandt is a prolific writer. Learn more about him and his ideas at https://www.jamieschwandt.com/
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Transcript:
00:00:00 SPEAKER_01
Being afraid, my third point was leaders' fear that they would expose as frauds.
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Welcome to the 1CA Podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We're joined by special guest Major Jamie Schwand. He's a maverick, critical thinker, leader, and innovator. He challenges the status quo. He's a Lean Six Sigma Master Black Belt Red Team member for the Department of the Army. He's an accomplished writer, publishing in military journals, magazines, and blogs, including the Army Magazine. It's published by AUSA, a partner organization of the Civil Affairs Association. MOA, the Military Officers Association of America, and Task and Purpose. He is the recipient of the Douglas MacArthur Military Leadership Writing Award, sponsored by the Douglas MacArthur Foundation in Norfolk, Virginia, and administered by the Center for Army Leadership. Major Schwan is also the recipient of the Command General Staff College CGSC Iron Pen Award. He is an adjunct professor at the Robbins College of Business and Entrepreneurship in the Department of Health and Human Performance. at the Fort Hayes State University, where he teaches. He's also the 2016 Young Alumni of the Year Award recipient at Fort Hayes. Major Schwant received his doctorate in education from Kansas State University and his MS and BS from Fort Hayes. He has published several books, including Succeeding as a Foster Child, a workbook, Finding Your Hero, and Succeeding as a Foster Child. Major Jamie Schwant, thank you very much for being on the 1CA podcast. talk with you about the writing you've done over the last several years, some of the more current stuff, and your background as a logistician for the Army, how that may relate to critical thinking applied to the Army and applied to civil affairs. So, sir, I wanted to start with a question about swarm learning. Some people may not have heard about that term before. You've written a lot about swarm learning and swarm intelligence. And I know that the term relates to large groups of insects. So what does swarm learning mean?
00:03:59 SPEAKER_01
example, an ant colony would use because it's completely autonomous, really. It's decentralized. There is no, you know, the queen ant doesn't give commands. Ants, you know, they'll go searching for food, for example. They'll shoot pheromones. Another ant will find those pheromones if it's strong enough, and they'll go to a food source, and they'll deplete that food source. Then they'll spread out, you know, spurs, and shoot more pheromones, you know, kind of like that, and they use simple rules. simplicity underlies complexity, simple rules, instead of complete command and control. And I wrote a piece that was discussing this idea with mission command, where I kind of argued that mission command is essentially swarm intelligence. But without going down a rabbit hole or in a rant, that's kind of the gist of swarm learning.
00:04:48 SPEAKER_04
Okay. How did you come up with the concept? Why was it in the forefront of your mind and in the connection to the military?
00:07:38 SPEAKER_04
It sounds like, I mean, some of that is very historical, looking at the Socratic method, where you may have someone who's an instructor just facilitating thinking, and I don't know if Socrates had all the answers, right? But his approach to students was to facilitate their discussion, and he wasn't always the person, certainly didn't have PowerPoint, but if he did, I don't think he would have used it. He would have just facilitated a discussion in the class.
00:08:50 SPEAKER_04
So that's at college, university level. Normally, as a professor, you would have to submit your syllabus, approved by the department, and, you know, under the auspices of that college, and therefore the provost is for the university, and you're locked in sort of to that syllabus for the semester of that session. How can you, do you have the latitude within a college or university system to adjust course during that semester? You know, I've never asked for...
00:09:53 SPEAKER_04
question sir because it might be difficult
00:09:54 SPEAKER_01
question sir because it might be
00:10:24 SPEAKER_04
That's really good to hear. Yeah, I asked that question to lead into my next one because it seems to me like professional military education, PME, is built on the same model for civilian education where professors have to submit their syllabus and for the PME courses that listeners may have gone through or will be going through, it's pretty rigid. And when you talk about taking command and control out of the classroom or reducing it somehow, That is inherent with the military structure. So would you propose that PME shift to the model that you're talking about, and how would that happen?
00:12:29 SPEAKER_04
that's where we're starting here. I want to encourage people to go to your website to find out more about swarm learning and read what you've already published. Sir, you wrote, quote, swarm learning not only teaches students to be comfortable with ambiguity, it weaponizes it, end quote. So could you describe that and offer some examples?
00:15:04 SPEAKER_04
It does, and I think that's the added value of why students are paying to be in person and learn from an instructor like yourself, to stretch their mind, to think outside the box, and to hear new ideas. Folks, you've been listening to an interview with Jamie Schwann, U .S. Army major, logistician, and author. We're going to come back and talk to him about how this is connected possibly with Ender's Game, a popular book, and to connect the concepts of swarm learning and swarm intelligence with red teams.
00:15:39 SPEAKER_04
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00:17:09 SPEAKER_04
Welcome back to our interview with Major Jamie Schwant. Sir, I wanted to talk to you about swarms and preparing students. Those ideas were popular in Orson Scott Card's famous book, Ender's Game, where it had very young students brought together. They had been pre -selected by society and the military to train them at a higher level. They were fighting against these ant -like formics, and the student leader, Ender Wiggin, was the young warrior who succeeded in ambiguity. Did you get ideas for the swarm learning or swarm intelligence from books like these?
00:18:26 SPEAKER_04
I think it's still required learning for officers in the Marine Corps. I think when they're junior officers, tactical level, it's a book that the Commandant in the Marine Corps encourages Marines to read. That would make sense. It seems like the Marines have that.
00:18:40 SPEAKER_01
that. I love what they have to read.
00:18:43 SPEAKER_04
Yeah, exactly. And there are follow -up books to that. They had several books that Orson Scott Card put out after Ender's Game that carries through time and space, and then the popular movie that came out several years ago. Sir, I wanted to ask you if there are any parts of the military already succeeding with the ideas of swarming or swarm intelligence, whether it's people or technology. I guess I don't know the answer to that. I'm assuming there are.
00:19:09 SPEAKER_01
I mean, you look at some of the swarming robotics or some of the AI that's coming out. I know that I just read something on the U .K. the other day about adopting swarming AI and robotics. I know the military, I can't remember what the U .S. military has.
00:19:55 SPEAKER_04
Sir, I want to try to connect these concepts to red teams. You've gone through the red teaming program at Fort Leavenworth, which is amazing from everyone who's attended. I've heard it's a really good thing. We've got the red team member courses, the red team leader course, which is more involved and more lengthy. So if we can try to frame red teams for the audience right now, who are they? What do red teams do? Where do they operate? And why do they exist?
00:22:06 SPEAKER_04
I wanted to ask you where they operate. They're typically like a staffing element, right, that would support the planting cell.
00:22:55 SPEAKER_04
Okay, so that's connected to an article that you wrote, published in Task and Purpose, titled Five Irrational Reasons Why Military Leaders Hate Red Teaming. What are those five reasons?
00:23:06 SPEAKER_01
I forgot about that one. Sorry, go ahead. What did you say?
00:23:08 SPEAKER_04
Yeah. Sir, can you talk about what those five reasons are? And then the last question we'll get to to close it out is a connection you may see between swarm learning, swarm intelligence, and red teams. Possibilities for it.
00:26:38 SPEAKER_04
the swarm learning, the swarm thinking could be really tied well with red teaming. You just don't know if it is formally right now.
00:27:28 SPEAKER_04
Makes sense. Well, sir, I think we could leave it there. This has been an eye -opening discussion for me to learn more about swarm learning and swarm intelligence. I hope the listeners can go to your website, which is jamieschwant .com, and that is spelled J -A -M -I -E -S -C -H -W -A -N -D -T .com. Your blog is named The Honey Badger, which I think is amazing. The books you've been putting out are great. I really appreciate the articles. I don't know where you find the time with your family and the work that you're doing to put out those articles, but this is the type of critical thinking the Army needs and that the Army and the Marine Corps and everyone else in civil affairs can learn a lot from your thoughts. So I would encourage everyone to go to your website, look at the publications that you've put on there and linked. And is there anything that you have for any final tips for? the listening audience of civil affairs and some of the things you may have coming up in a few months.
00:30:10 SPEAKER_04
man. Sir, I really appreciate your time. Glad you came on the 1CA podcast.
00:30:15 SPEAKER_01
Yeah, thank you.
00:30:23 SPEAKER_03
Thank you for spending some time with us. Please subscribe and come back for another installment of 1CA. Until then, be safe and secure the victory.
00:30:39 SPEAKER_00
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