Welcome to One CA Podcast. Today we have Michael Schwille, Major in the U.S. Army Reserve, discusses his growth in Civil Affairs, experiences in Iraq and Djibouti, and how civilian work with the RAND Corporation relates to CA.
Find Major Schwille on LinkedIn.
Check out the Civil Affairs Association online for a Call for Papers and upcoming events.
---
Transcript:
00:00:00 SPEAKER_00
Hear that? That's your future calling. Air Force Lifecycle Management Center is seeking civilian professionals for numerous mission -critical positions in the National Capital Region to support the F -35 Lightning II Joint Program Office. To be considered for an in -person interview, register today at afcs .jobs because employing the world's most powerful Air Force means employing its most capable workforce. And that's where you come in. Learn more at afcs .jobs. The first target audience that you have,
00:00:30 SPEAKER_03
first target audience that you have, you know, it sure isn't the people outside of the gate. The first person you need to influence is whatever commander that you're supporting.
00:00:51 SPEAKER_02
Hello and welcome back to the 1CA podcast. My name is John McElligot, your host for today's episode. We are joined today by Michael Schwilley. He is a major in the Army Reserve. He received his Bachelor of Arts in History degree from the University of Pittsburgh, did some study abroad in the UK, and then he went on to earn a Master of Arts in International Development Study with a focus on security from the George Washington University. For the last several years, he has worked at DIA, the Defense Intelligence Agency, with BAE Systems. as a counterterrorism human operations integrator. He's also working at Psychological Operations Detachment for the Army Reserve as a company commander of the 100 Soldiers PSYOP Detachment. And since January 2014, he's been working at the RAND Corporation as a project associate. He's been conducting research and analysis for Arroyo and the National Security Research Division and contributing to projects that relate to national security. with a focus on security cooperation, security force assistance, and building partner capacity, and a concentration in Africa and Asia. Major Schwilly, thanks for joining us. Thanks, John. Glad to be here.
00:02:03 SPEAKER_02
I looked through your bio and your background and saw that you led an infantry company in Dayal province in Iraq in 2010, and there you were helping to manage some civil military operations. What was that first experience with civil affairs activities like?
00:02:21 SPEAKER_03
Sure, so I guess right off the bat is a slight correction there. I was deployed twice in Iraq, and I was a field artillery officer, not an infantry officer. But the first time I was in Iraq, the battery that I was part of was, you know, just a brand new second lieutenant. And everybody, the entire... battalion, the field artillery battalion. We were all landowners, so we had an area of responsibility. So there was a lot of patrolling. We were securing main supply route, main supply route Tampa, up by a solid in the province. So we were based out of Camp Kaji, which was north of Baghdad. So that was my first deployment, and that was not too much civil affairs. on that particular one, a little more route clearance, you know, and a little more bombs and bullets, we'll say. But the second time that I went back was in 2008 and 2009, and it was that time that I was attached to an infantry company. I was a fire support officer. So I had a fire support team, about five soldiers, and we were responsible. It was in that capacity. So before we crossed over from Kuwait into Iraq that second time, I remember taking a class on collateral damage estimation, and that's basically how close a bomb can you drop to a building without destroying it. So that's what I was learning. When I got to Iraq, I wasn't really doing much of that at all. I found myself the effects guy. So back in 2006, and they took a lot of field artillery officers, and they turned the fire support cell within the infantry companies into what they called a COIS, which was kind of like a mini effects slash intelligence. So I was running that in Iraq, but I was also in charge of three separate Nihiyas, which are counties, basically. They were pretty large, probably about 300 ,000 Iraqis. So I would attend city council meetings. I would work with city managers, city planners, mayors. And it was really in that capacity that I got my first real experience in exposure to civil affairs and civil military operations.
00:04:58 SPEAKER_02
Was that something that you took over someone else who was doing that work and that integration before you had arrived, or was it something you had to start?
00:05:06 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so we replaced, I think it was...
00:05:19 SPEAKER_03
There were definitely some things that were going on. You know, he had a couple different initiatives out there. But I really feel that it was myself and I was partnered up with another captain who was actually a civil affairs captain responsible for our AOR. And we partnered up, and we really, I feel, took it to kind of the next level. We were really active going to these different city council meetings and engaging. with the key planners across all of these different sectors, so water and sanitation and sewer and agriculture. Well, at the same time, we were attending these meetings, and we were focused on a lot of that. There was a lot of security, obviously, meetings and things that were going on, and a lot of what we were doing to bolster the civilian government. the time. So it was really an interesting time.
00:06:25 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, it sounds like it was fascinating. Now, was it that experience, I guess, when you were in Dallas that wanted you, you know, were you exposed to people in civil affairs or just the type of work that thought made you think, oh, civil affairs is something I want to switch to?
00:06:41 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, absolutely. So I remember, you know, it was one of the first meetings that I went to when I was there that second time. And I was working with it. provincial reconstruction team members. So they had the provincial reconstruction teams that were set up.
00:06:56 SPEAKER_03
up. And then they were up for a couple of years. And then they started to have these embedded provincial reconstruction teams. And those were individuals from the Department of State, USAID, that were out really doing a lot of work on the ground, trying to form these councils, trying to teach people how to hold a meeting with these meetings, with an agenda. You know, we got a copy of Robert's Rules of Order, and that's really what we used to kind of start holding a lot of these meetings. So, yeah, it was very interesting. What I would say is that, you know, it was through those experiences and through the projects that we were leading that really opened my eyes to the power of civil affairs and what value we have. military commanders that we're working for. It's much more than just getting civilians off of the battlefield.
00:07:56 SPEAKER_00
much more
00:08:00 SPEAKER_03
It's really an integral part of winning the peace. You can only kill so many bad guys at the end of the day, especially in a counterinsurgency environment. You really need to pull the population away from those insurgent groups. that Civil Affairs brings to the table to help affect that is really quite large. It's really impressive to see that.
00:08:32 SPEAKER_02
Do you think that your company leadership or battalion leadership in that time already supported the activities you were doing, or was this stuff that you had to come up with?
00:08:42 SPEAKER_03
Sure, great question. So the first time I deployed was with the 172nd Striker Brigade Combat Team. And that was in the 0506. And the second time was we re -flagged as 1st Brigade 25th Infantry Division. And my battalion commander, both the battalion commander and the brigade commander were really excellent, particularly my battalion commander, Colonel Brian Reed. He really understood counterinsurgency and the impact that...
00:09:20 SPEAKER_03
We did a lot of projects, right? So we did vocational school rehabilitation. I can't tell you how many trash removal projects we did and refurbishing an asphalt plant, refurbishing markets. I learned and I worked more with poultry and chickens than I ever thought I would like to know in my entire life. So we ended up partnering up with the Iraqi Grandparent Poultry Company. And it was two brothers, and they were educated in... England. Their father, I think, was an economics teacher. And they really had some, you know, state -of -the -art for Iraq, but I mean some pretty high -level biosecurity in these poultry farms. And we were really, really instrumental in, you know, getting them some loans and working with U .S. aid and securing some funding for them. And it was really a great strategy, you know, brought together a lot of disparate groups, Sunni, Shia. And, you know, there was a voucher system that was kind of put in place. But I remember when I had to fly down to the green zone down in Baghdad and brief some pretty senior USAID officials. And I remember I had to go to my battalion commander and ask him if it was all right to go down there. And, you know, I told him, gave him the con off and talked about the plan and what we were doing and why this was important. And he didn't really say too much during the brief, and then afterwards he said, Schwilly,
00:10:47 SPEAKER_03
go down there. Don't mess this up. That's the PG version of what he said. Yeah, a little pressure.
00:10:53 SPEAKER_04
a little pressure.
00:10:55 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, but no, he really did get it. And, yeah, I really think that had a large impact in that area at that time.
00:11:04 SPEAKER_02
That's good to hear. So then you took that experience, one of the civil affairs, and then you were commanding. a SIOP detachment. Are you SIOP qualified as well as civil affairs?
00:11:16 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, so when I came back from that second time in Iraq in 09, I actually had applied and got accepted to active duty civil affairs. After talking it over with my fiancée, soon to be my wife, we decided that active duty civil affairs wasn't the right path for me. So instead I... I applied and I went to grad school, and I went to George Washington University, and I got my master's in international development studies. And the reason, the whole reason of why I went and got my master's in development studies is because I didn't see the Army and the U .S. military general getting out of the civil military operations business anytime soon. And, you know, not disparaging anybody, but there was a lot of...
00:12:01 SPEAKER_04
know, not disparaging
00:12:07 SPEAKER_03
misperceptions, and a lot of folks didn't really understand the value of what some well -trained civil affairs personnel could do to support not only a company, a battalion, a brigade. And so that's why I went and got my master's in development studies. Following that, I did a few years in civil affairs. I transferred to civil affairs, but then I did switch over to psychological operations. which I kind of view civil affairs and PSYOP as two sides to the same point. We do a lot of the same type of work, not the same activities, but we're definitely influencing, whether that's a target audience or a select segment of a population. But civil affairs and psychological operations, I mean, that's our bread and butter. That's what we do.
00:13:03 SPEAKER_02
Yeah, I guess that's why they're... Command on the reserve side is together.
00:13:08 SPEAKER_03
Yeah, that's an interesting, yeah,
00:13:12 SPEAKER_03
that is why. I mean, I'm sure that, you know, both used to be under, you know, the Special Operations Command, and then, you know, there's been lots of conversation about whether that was the right thing or the wrong thing to do. It's interesting. In my job at RAND, I do a lot of force structure studies and, you know,
00:13:32 SPEAKER_03
know, look at manning. billeting and, you know, organizations and how things are organized. And there's definitely some benefits as well as some negatives having the active and the reserve components kind of divorced and not together. So I'll just leave it at that.
00:13:53 SPEAKER_02
I think we're going to try to have a conversation with the commanding general, Yusuke Kapok, and ask him that question as well. So we'll get to that on a future episode. So with the PSYOP detachment, Mike, you deployed to Command Joint Task Force Horn of Africa, HOA, which is in Djibouti. Can you describe what you're doing out there? Sure. So that was actually,
00:14:16 SPEAKER_03
I took command of the psychological operations company after I came back. I was actually deployed as a civil affairs officer to CJTF HOA. So when I was there, it was 2013. It was pretty much the entire year of 2013. was a bit more permissive than it has been in recent years due to the threats primarily of al -Shabaab in East Africa there, as well as the conflict in Yemen and ISIS, or ISIL, however you want to call them. But when I was there, like I said, you had the ability to kind of get out a little bit more. There were some team houses that were out there. There were some civil affairs teams. that were living and working in the communities that did a good job of informing the command there at Camp Le Mignet of how the local population was feeling, what their concerns were. It was a much different experience than a non -permissive environment from my previous experiences in Iraq. So for that, I had a civil affairs team that was out, that was regularly interacting. with the local community. But my primary job, I was tasked to be the liaison officer between CJTF HOA and then the French forces in Djibouti, the FFDJ. So the French are actually treaty. obligated to provide security for the country of Djibouti. And the French have a rather large military presence there. For the French, it's large. For the United States, maybe not quite as much. But they have, you know, Air Force and Special Operations. Marines, you know, they have all of the services kind of represented there. And they use the country of Djibouti as a kind of like as an NTC, a National Training Center rotation. So they'll rotate units down a