The Trial of Lucy Letby: The Inquiry

In this episode Caroline and Liz have the latest on Lucy Letby’s defence case after her barrister Mark McDonald hand delivered the evidence which he says proves her convictions are unsafe, to the Criminal Cases Review Commission. So we sent Liz to have a chat with him.  

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In this update Caroline and Liz have the final day of the inquiry. Lady Justice Thirlwall rejected the application made yesterday to pause the inquiry and said she hoped her final report would be ready by November.

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Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

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Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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This episode contains some details that listeners could find distressing

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We are delighted to announce the launch of The Crime Desk, a brand-new podcast network which will feature some incredible new crime series we think you'll absolutely love.

To kick it off, we're going back to where it all started - with The Trial+.

Every week members of The Crime Desk will get exclusive access to brand new bonus episodes of The Trial. We will cover more cases, answer your questions, and publish mini-series about some really fascinating events.

To launch we've got a brand new mini series looking at a previously unseen report on the Countess of Chester Hospital, which employed Lucy Letby. We'll then follow it with an eye-opening series on what happens when celebrities find themselves in the dock.

It couldn't be easier to become a member, and there is a free 7 day trial available to listeners of The Trial of Lucy Letby.

To find out more, simply go to www.thecrimedesk.com - alternatively, if you're reading this in Spotify or Apple, scroll to to top of the page and hit the subscribe button.

We love bringing you this podcast, we hope you enjoy it too - if you do, your support would mean the world to us.

Caroline & Liz.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the closing statements of the families of the babies and the senior executives of the Countess of Chester Hospital. We’ve got details of the executives’ application to pause the inquiry amid claims that ‘new’ evidence could render Lucy Letby’s convictions unsafe.

And the response of the families, who argue it is simply a cynical ploy by a manipulative serial killer to control the narrative and an attempt by senior managers to avoid criticism.

We also bring you the pleas of the mums and dads in this case, who say the NHS must make changes and formally regulate senior executives to stop a similar tragedy ever happening again.

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Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular.

This episode contains some details that listeners could find distressing

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In this episode of the Trial Update, Caroline and Liz have the assurance the Heath Secretary Wes Streeting has given to the inquiry that what happened at the Countess of Chester Hospital should never happen anywhere else. The inquiry was also told that the Department for Health were “deeply troubled” by the way the doctors were treated by senior managers. And the hospital has now accepted for the first time that Lucy Letby should have been suspended in October 2015, before she attacked seven more babies. 

Plus we’ve got the details of two applications to pause the Thirlwall inquiry - one from Lucy Letby herself, and one from the hospital’s senior managers.

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In this emergency episode Caroline and Liz have the breaking news that detectives are now investigating certain members of staff who worked at the hospital at the time Lucy Letby was killing and harming babies. Cheshire Police have confirmed their investigation into Corporate Manslaughter, which focused on the hospital, has now been upgraded to Gross Negligence Manslaughter. That means they are now investigating individual members of staff to see whether what they did – or didn’t do - amounted to a crime. 

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Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

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This episode contains some details that listeners could find distressing

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In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss this week’s press conference by Lucy Letby’s defence team. They go over the findings of the expert panel, who now say she isn't guilty of any murders, and compare it to the evidence scrutinised at her two trials.

They also speak to Lord Ken Macdonald KC, the former Director of Public Prosecutions, who gives his take on the Criminal Cases Review Commission and Lucy Letby’s chances of a new appeal.

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Caroline and Liz run through the evidence of the final week of witnesses, including that of Jane Tomkinson, the current chief executive of the Countess of Chester Hospital.

She tells the inquiry that things have significantly changed in the nine years since Lucy Letby murdered babies on the neo-natal unit and that senior managers are more open and better at listening to staff than before.

We also hear from an expert statistician and Cambridge academic Sir Professor David Spiegelhalter, who explains that while the 2015 spike in deaths was unusual for the Countess, it wasn’t particularly rare from a national perspective and other units had similar neo-natal mortality rates.

Caroline and Liz also talk to journalist David James Smith about Lucy Letby’s chances of securing a new appeal, and his time as a commissioner on the Criminal Cases Review Commission.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular.

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Caroline and Liz are back with the first week of evidence from the Inquiry of the New Year. They explain the testimony of MP Jeremy Hunt, who was Health Secretary, when Lucy Letby murdered and harmed babies at the Countess of Chester Hospital, in 2015 and 2016.

He apologised to the families and said he took ultimate responsibility for a failure to implement recommendations from previous NHS inquiries, which may have helped catch Lucy Letby sooner.

He talks about how it took 20 years to install independent medical examiners in hospitals and said that if one had been in post when Lucy Letby was working it might have made a difference.

Caroline and Liz also talk to barrister Tim Owen about the extraordinary press conference held by Lucy Letby’s new barrister shortly before Christmas and what this means for her attempts to overturn her convictions.

And they also discuss a speech made by MP David Davis in the House of Commons this week when he used Parliamentary privilege to call for a retrial.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Ranore

Guest: Tim Owen, Double Jeopardy - The Law and Politics Podcast

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Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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In this final episode before The Inquiry takes a break for Christmas, Caroline and Liz explain the evidence of Nicholas Rheinberg, the Senior Coroner for Cheshire. He said he was ‘horribly disappointed’ at being kept in the dark about the consultants’ concerns about Lucy Letby and horrified that the paediatricians allowed him to carry out an inquest into the death of Baby A without telling him the real reason for how they believed the baby boy died.

We also hear from Sir Rob Behrens, the former Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman. He gave evidence on the culture of the NHS and described why scandals involving patient deaths keep occurring. He said there is a small pool of individuals that run NHS hospitals who are like ‘The Magic Circle.’ He said these individuals need to be subject to regulation, like doctors and nurses, to stop the ‘revolving door’ of failing bosses moving from hospital to hospital without any detriment to their careers. 

Sir Rob also criticised the public inquiry system itself and called for the Government to set up a new body to make sure their reports and recommendations are not simply shelved, but acted upon in the future.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Jamie East

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

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In this week’s episode, Caroline and Liz bring the evidence of Sir Duncan Nichol, the hospital’s board chairman. He was also the head of the NHS when nurse Beverley Allitt murdered children at a hospital in Grantham. He tells the inquiry it was a ‘serious failure’ by the Countess of Chester Hospital not to tell the families of the babies harmed what was going on and he apologised for not keeping their children safe.

We also hear how the coroner was also kept in the dark about the spike in deaths and that a nurse was suspected of killing babies. Assistant Coroner Alan Moore said senior managers kept back vital information which would have prompted the police to be called.

And we hear from other non-executive board directors who describe how tension and conflict between the paediatricians and senior managers affected their response to the crisis.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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Caroline and Liz have another update from the Thirlwall Inquiry where the Medical Director Ian Harvey was accused of “fobbing off” the mother of one of the babies who was killed by Lucy Letby. He also denied withholding evidence from the coroner. But he admitted not commissioning a forensic review of the deaths which may have uncovered a crime sooner was a missed opportunity.

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In today’s episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence for the first time from the two most senior managers at the Countess of Chester Hospital. Ian Harvey and Tony Chambers have never spoken before but they appeared before Lady Justice Thirlwall. They apologised to the families of the babies who were killed and harmed by Lucy Letby for not communicating with the parents properly and they were challenged on why they were slow to act and slow to accept what the consultants were telling them.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from some of the senior managers from the Countess of Chester Hospital. It's the first time we've heard from them, and all accepted mistakes had been made in the way the concerns about Lucy Letby had been dealt with.  But Tony Chambers, the Chief Executive, was reluctant to accept any personal failings, and Alison Kelly, the Director of Nursing, blamed others for the fact she was slow to respond to an email about a spike in baby deaths and a link to Lucy Letby. The Director of People, Sue Hodkinson said she should never have told Lucy Letby she would soon be back on the ward. We also heard that Lucy Letby's father, John, wanted the consultants to be sacked.

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A big week at the Thirlwall Inquiry as the managers get their chance to speak and to answer the criticisms that they were too slow to act to stop Lucy Letby. First up is Alison Kelly, The Director of Nursing. We’ll be bringing you extra episodes all week this week to reflect what’s happening here in Liverpool.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence of former Detective Chief Superintendent Nigel Wenham, the police officer who was instrumental in launching the police investigation into Lucy Letby’s crimes.

They also hear from one of the key doctors in the case - Dr Stephen Brearey - the lead consultant on the neo-natal unit. He apologised to the families of the babies murdered and harmed by Lucy Letby, saying he tried to do his best to protect their children but admitted his best was not good enough.

He said the pressures of his day job in the NHS meant he was too busy to properly review cases of babies who collapsed and died and he failed to spot she was harming patients sooner.

He also revealed that he now believes Lucy Letby had killed other children on his unit for some time before she killed Baby A - the first of seven babies she was convicted of murdering - in June 2015.

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In this bonus update the Head of the Neo-Natal Unit Dr Stephen Brearey told parents he was sorry his actions had not been enough to stop their children being harmed and killed. He also accused Lucy Letby of harming babies BEFORE she killed Baby A in June 2015. And he admitted he and others missed opportunities which could have stopped her.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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In the first episode of The Trial Update Caroline and Liz have a snapshot of the evidence of Dr Ravi Jayaram as he appeared before the Thirlwall inquiry.

He said sorry, and said he wishes now he'd been stronger and braver and spoken up sooner about Lucy Letby.

He also said senior managers would not take the consultants' concerns seriously and he now reflected it had been like being in an abusive relationship.

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In this episode Caroline and Liz have the evidence from Dr Ravi Jayaram. He accepted that he should have done more sooner to stop Lucy Letby from harming babies. He said he should have been braver and more courageous in speaking up, but he said his concerns initially seemed "outlandish".

He also told the Thirlwall Inquiry that after Lucy Letby was eventually moved off the ward she told him she'd be back "whether he liked it or not."

And he said the recommendations from the inquiry into Beverley Allitt's crimes should be embedded in all medical safeguarding training.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

Production Manager: Vittoria Cecchini

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In this episode Caroline and Liz discuss the evidence of the union rep who became close friends with Lucy Letby. Hayley Griffiths exchanged jokey and inappropriate texts with her about ‘tips’ on how to get away with murder and told her they would be ‘friends forever.’

They also hear evidence about Lucy Letby’s employment grievance and how rumours were flying around the hospital that a consultant made a pass at her and that she was the victim of a witch hunt.

And they bring you a statement from her parents who said they were left shocked and heartbroken by the sickening allegations made against their daughter.

Presenters: Caroline Cheetham and Liz Hull

Editor: Chelsey Moore

Creative Director: Caroline Cheetham

A Daily Mail production. Seriously Popular.

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