The UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast

Today, we have a very special guest on the show, Dr. Jeffrey Kripal. Dr. Kripal is an esteemed scholar and author in the study of religion, focusing particularly on the esoteric, mystical, and paranormal dimensions of human experience. He serves as the J. Newton Rayzor Chair in Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University. He is the author of several phenomenal books including The Superhumanities, Mutants & Mystics, Super Natural (which he co-authored with Whitley Strieber), and The Flip.



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In this episode we welcome back my dear friend and friend of the show, Dr. James Madden. This is the third episode that we’ve done together, and I’m sure that it won’t be the last. My interviews with James Madden have become some of my most downloaded episodes, and so I know you guys love hearing from him. And I love talking to him, so we’re just going to keep doing it.

The deeper we dive into the phenomenon, the more necessary it becomes to not just interrogate what we think, but how we think—and to find new frameworks to help us do so. A philosophical approach gives the means to do that. And I’ve been so grateful to Jim for how generous he’s been with his time and his thoughts as we navigate these deeper waters.

As you all know, over the past several months Plato’s Cave has become a central touchstone of this podcast. It’s an idea I keep returning to, again and again, because as my own trip down the rabbit hole continues, I continue to find new insights within it. And so today, with Jim as our guide, we’re going to return to the Cave, armed with the new ideas we’ve developed over these past several months, and see what new revelations might reveal themselves.

With this episode we’ll also be returning to our discussion of Whitley Strieber’s groundbreaking new book, Them, which we discussed in the last episode. Strieber’s decades of deep research and thinking on the topic of non-human intelligence as well as his own ongoing contact experiences have led him to develop a nuanced, challenging, and at times unsettling, understanding of “the others”—including how they operate at the fringes of our awareness and what they might ultimately be trying to tell us.



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Today’s episode is an important one, because it’s going to lay the groundwork for a lot of the things that we’re going to be discussing moving forward. In the weeks and months to come, this is an episode that I’ll likely be referring back to often.

And that’s because today we’re diving into an article written by two heavyweights of ufology that serves not only as an essential framework to support our understanding of the complexities and nuances of the UFO phenomenon, but that also—in a very real way—helped to lay the foundation for the recent push for UFO disclosure. In short, it’s not only important that we take the time to really understand the ideas presented in this article—but to understand where it fits into the history of modern ufology.

The paper to which I’m referring is Incommensurability, Orthodoxy, and the Physics of High Strangeness: A 6-Layer Model for Anomalous Phenomena written by Jacques Vallée and Eric Davis. Most people will already be very familiar with those names, but just in case they are new to you, you can find links to their bios and other work in the episode brief.

What is so significant about this paper is that it seeks to create a framework by which we can begin to analyze and integrate the parts of UFO encounters that rarely make it into sci-fi media, and even more rarely make it into serious discussions about the phenomenon itself—which is the undeniable and pervasive occurrence of events and effects that are traditionally relegated to the realms of high strangeness and the paranormal.

If there’s nothing else that you take away from this episode it should be this—encounters with UFOs and non-human intelligence are much, much weirder than you've probably been led to believe.



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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Featured Song: Jacques Vallée by _ship

TIMESTAMPS

00:00:32 Introduction
00:06:53 Problems with the SETI and UAP Paradigms
00:07:25 —SETI & The Assumption of Mediocrity
00:12:19 —Anthropocentric Bias in SETI
00:14:54 —Anthropocentric Bias in Ufology
00:16:27 The Need For A Unified Approach To UAP Studies
00:20:01 The Six Layers of UAP Analysis
00:20:30 —Layer I: Physical
00:21:45 —Layer II: Anti-Physical
00:23:00 —Layer III: Psychological
00:29:53 —Layer IV: Physiological
00:32:19 —Layer V: Psychic
00:34:19 —Layer VI: Cultural
00:37:10 Possible Nature of UAP Technology
00:39:48 The Incommensurability Problem
00:45:42 Semiotics
00:51:35 High Strangeness & The Abduction Problem
00:54:12 Conclusions
00:56:23 Garry Nolan and Talking To Ants
01:00:26 Whitley Strieber and “The Visitors In the Trees”
01:12:42 Jacques Vallée by _ship

MUSIC
Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Featured Song: Jacques Vallée by _ship

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This week’s episode barely felt like work because this week I sat down with my dear friend, and one of my favorite people, Jay Christopher King. Jay is the cofounder and director of The Experiencer Group, a private online community dedicated to support, curiosity & community for people who’ve had anomalous events of all kinds. He is also the co-founder of the phenomenal Inquire Anomalous conference series in NYC along with James Iandoli.



NEW Class from Dr. James Madden
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In the third and final chapter of the Waking Up Inside The Cave series we explore emerging theories with regards to the nature of reality and consciousness that have the potential to fix what’s broken with “the official story of everything”. Specifically, we’ll be looking at the work of Jefrey Kripal, Robert Lanza, and Donald Hoffman.



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TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Introduction
00:04:33 A New Paradigm Emerges
00:09:52 The Flip
00:13:41 —Triggering The Flip
00:14:18 —The Impact Of The Flip
00:14:56 —Where the Traditional Materialist View Fits
00:15:46 —Full Disclosure
00:17:17 Biocentrism
00:20:35 —The Goldilocks Universe
00:22:42 —If A Tree Falls In The Forest Does It Make A Sound?
00:29:55 —Where Is The Universe?
00:34:58 —The Participatory Universe & Quantum Mechanics
00:36:21 —Space-Time Is Not Fundamental
00:43:13 The Case Against Reality
00:44:06 —How Evolution Hides The Truth
00:46:33 —The Interface Theory of Perception
00:48:22 —Objects As Mental Constructs
00:49:48 —Space-Time Is Doomed
00:50:42 Putting It All Together
00:50:55 —Recognizing Our Uber-Umwelt
00:57:29 —Consciousness—Not Space-Time—Is Fundamental
01:00:59 Conclusion

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In this episode, we do a deep-dive on the historic UFO hearing held by the House Oversight Committee featuring witnesses David Grusch, David Fravor, and Ryan Graves.



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As we look forward to next week's hearing, we're discussing concerns about the witnesses, the stunning allegations from members of Congress, and what we should expect in the week to come.



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MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE
ExoAcademian/Darren interview on Engaging The Phenomenon
Dr. Diana Pasulka interview on Theories of Everything
The Monroe Institute

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In this episode, I wanted to do something a little different. As the community continues to metabolize the stunning allegations by high-level intelligence official turned UFO whistleblower, David Grusch, and with more people waking up to the significance of this story everyday—the thing I’m hearing the most is just that people want to talk. We want to connect about this. If there’s anything that I’ve learned over the past few years it’s that this process of dismantling our consensus reality and coming to grips with a new one that shakes the foundations of every paradigm we have is a team sport. We’re meant to do these things in community.

Two weeks ago, I had the opportunity to spend the weekend with a bunch of really bright, like-minded people that I’ve met through doing this work, and it was honestly magical. We’ve come a long way in this conversation with the public-at-large, but for most of us who have a deep interest in this topic, we still find ourselves censoring and compartmentalizing to protect ourselves from the stigma we might face for simply considering these ideas. And so being able to gather with a group of people and let down those walls and give voice to the thoughts and hopes and anxieties that emerge when you’re coming to terms with the realities of a highly advanced, non-human presence on this planet can be a massive relief. It’s healing and I’d argue that it’s necessary.

But I know how rare those moments are, and I know that there are so many people who are more than ready to have those conversations, but who still haven’t found a safe place for that. And so I wanted to do my best to bring one of those conversations to you.
So this week, I sat down with my friend and colleague, Nathan, to chat about what this journey has been like, some of the stumbling blocks we’ve hit along the way, and how we can move forward into this strange new reality in a way that is healthy and productive. And I knew that Nathan would be the perfect person to have that conversation with.

Nathan uses a mononym because, like so many in the community—including, I assume, many of you listening—he’s a serious guy with a serious job who doesn’t necessarily want to advertise his interest in UFOs. But though you won’t find his last name online, what you will find is a bunch of phenomenal work. Nathan is the co-host of two great podcasts—Liminal Phrames on which he collaborates with Darren King (AKA ExoAcademian), and Calling All Beings, which he co-pilots along with a bunch of other wonderful contributors in the space including D.J., Deb, Leah Prime, and a rotating lineup of other friends.

What I appreciate so much about Nathan is his rational yet deeply human-centered approach to the UFO phenomenon. He manages to navigate the deepest and most treacherous waters of this topic while still remaining grounded and without ever losing focus on the things that matter most—our relationships and connections with each other. Nathan is exactly the kind of friend that you’d want to have this kind of conversation with, and I hope you enjoy this chat as much as I did. And may we all move forward from this episode with the intention of being that kind of friend for others who will soon be going through this, too.



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Today, we’re circling back to an idea that we visited in one of the earliest episodes of the podcast—the extratempestrial model. Sometimes also referred to as the future human hypothesis, the extratempestrial model is the idea that the UFOs phenomenon might represent advanced humans and human descendents who are traveling here from another point in time.

I’ll admit to struggling with this idea at first. Time travel has always seemed a little too clunky and a little too hokey to be taken seriously. But as so often happens on this trip down the rabbit hole, the more I learned and the more my perspective began to swell and shift to accommodate the strange new realities I was exploring, the more what once seemed like a kind of crazy idea to me suddenly started to make a heck of a lot of sense. And I found that many of my objections had more to do with the limitations of my knowledge than the limitations of the extratempestrial model.

So I wanted to come back around to this idea, because there is a lot there to dig into, most of which didn’t make it into the initial episode. And there are some new and updated ideas that I think are really valuable in understanding the complexities of the phenomenon. And there’s no better way to take a deep dive into this topic than with one of the people who literally wrote the book on the extratempestrial model—Dr. Michael P. Masters.

Micahel Masters is a professor of biological anthropology at Montana Technological University. He specializes in human evolution, osteology, and anatomical sciences. Dr. Master’s work related to the phenomenon explores the potential evolutionary trajectories of humankind, linking anthropological theory to hypotheses about extraterrestrial life. He is the author of several books on the topic including Identified Flying Objects: A Multidisciplinary Scientific Approach to the UFO Phenomenon, The Extratempestrial Model, and his latest, a satirical science fiction novel called, Revelation: The Future Human Past.



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TIMESTAMPS
00:30 - Introduction
07:20 - What Is The Extratempestrial Model?
09:50 - The Extratempestrial Model & The Interdimensional Hypothesis
11:29 - The Social & Biological Trends That Hint At The Extratempestrial Model
16:32 - Technology & The “Other”
20:48 - Technological Variability In Humans
21:02 - The Communication Problem
25:38 - How Technology Is Shaped By Biology
28:52 - Exotic Bipedal Beings
32:17 - Could Humanoid Beings Be The Result of Biomimicry?
37:08 - Are UFOs Time Machines?
43:50 - The Nimitz Incident
47:18 - Rethinking The Impossible
49:57 - The Block Universe
59:02 - Revelation: The Future Human Past

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In this episode, we explore the complexities of confronting the reality of UFO disclosure. Information that significantly challenges your worldview can be hard to process. In light of UFO whistleblower David Grusch’s recent allegations—that the US government is in possession of non-human craft and bodies—even those within the community who thought that they were ready for these kinds of revelations have found themselves reeling.

In this episode, we discuss ontological shock—what it is, how to cope with it, and how to avoid the major pitfalls. And we work on beginning to resolve our ontological shock but getting ourselves reoriented in a world where nothing is as we once thought it was.

No matter where you are in your journey, I hope this episode offers you something that you can take for the road. And if you know people who are just starting out, or who are finding themselves feeling disoriented right now in ways they can’t identify, this is a great episode to share with them.


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TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Introduction
00:05:30 Ontological Shock
00:07:29 The Signs of Ontological Shock
00:08:42 The Pitfalls of Ontological Shock
00:14:07 Resolving Ontological Shock
00:16:47 What Exactly Are We Dealing With?
00:19:00 How Has Perception of the UFO Phenomenon Changed Over Time?
00:19:11 -UFOs: 1947 to Present
00:23:48 -UFOs: Before 1947
00:29:13 What Forces Have Shaped & Influenced The Perception Of UFOs
00:29:44 -Cultural Context
00:36:47 -The Government
00:50:38 -The Media
00:57:47 -The Phenomenon
01:00:25 Who Can You Trust?



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On Monday, June 5th, 2023, a story was published by The Debrief presenting claims from the first whistleblower to step forward publicly since the passing of UAP whistleblower legislation with the 2023 National Defense Authorization Act a few months ago. This whistleblower, David Charles Grusch, is a high-level member of the intelligence community, and he is claiming to have knowledge of special access programs that have recovered non-human technological craft.

Later that same day, an excerpt from an interview with the whistleblower conducted by investigative journalist, Ross Coulthart, was aired on NewsNation in which Rusch made even more shocking claims—including the allegation that the US has also recovered the bodies of the non-human pilots of these craft.

In this episode we do a deep dive into this story, doing our best to frame it within the great context of the disclosure movement, and ask the question: what does all this mean? And can what David Grusch is saying really be true?



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TIMESTAMPS
00:30 Introduction
03:14 What Makes This Story So Significant?
07:10 Why Wasn’t The UFO Whistleblower Story In The New York Times?
10:02 What Led Up To This?
10:17 -Luis Elizondo & the 2017 New York Times Article
12:31 -The UAP Task Force
14:02 -AARO
16:50 -2023 NDAA
17:10 What Is David Charles Grusch?
20:10 Who Did Grusch Talk To?
20:42 What Did Grusch Tell Congress?
23:35 Wait—So David Grusch Never Saw The Craft Or Bodies?
27:19 How Do We Know David Grusch Is Who He Says He Is?
27:57 -Karl E. Nell
28:27 -Christopher Mellon
29:13 -Jonathan Grey
30:43 -Jim Shell
31:32 Retaliation and Disclosure of Urgent Concerns
34:02 David Grusch’s Interview with Ross Coulthart
37:08 Thoughts on the Interview
40:23 The Implications of Grusch’s Allegations
47:57 Pentagon Response
48:14 What Can We Do?

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In this episode, I spoke with author, illustrator, and researcher, Mike Clelland. Mike is the author of several books, two of which we’ll be discussing directly in this episode. The first is The Messengers: Owls, Synchronicity, and the UFO Abductee. The second is his latest release, The Unseen, which is a fiction book that deals with many of the themes of his other work. He also provided the illustrations for the book The Cryptoterrestrials: A Meditation on Indigenous Humanoids and the Aliens Among Us by Mac Tonnies, that we’ll also be discussing in this episode. You can find links to all of his work below.


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BOOKS BY MIKE CLELLAND
The Messengers: Owls, Synchronicity and the UFO Abductee
The Unseen
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Today we’re diving into Part 2 of the Waking Up Inside The Cave series. If you haven’t listened to that part 1 yet, I highly recommend that you do so first. It’s linked in the episode brief.

For many who take the trip down the UFO rabbit hole, there comes a point where you find yourself asking much bigger questions about reality. It boils down to this:

The UFO phenomenon is impossible by every single measure that we use to determine such things, and yet it is. And the existence of the impossible posits that the models that we use to determine what is possible and what isn’t are irretrievably flawed. There is no other logical explanation. Frankly, if UFOs don’t make you question the nature of your reality, you haven’t understood them.
In part 1 of this series, we took a closer look at the most fundamental mean-making models that we have starting with the very origins of the universe. And I made the case that very little about this narrative makes any kind of rational sense, and that its only real utility lies in explaining things away without actually explaining them at all. When exposed to the harsh light of objective interrogation, the consensus view of reality quickly dissipates like morning fog.

Plato’s Cave has become a touchstone in this podcast because it provides the perfect framework for discussing the process of pursuing this line of questioning. And as we begin to recognize that consensus reality is little more than a shadowplay on the wall, the inevitable questions arise:

Where are we? What is this place? And what is the shadowplay meant to conceal?

We discussed back in episode 18 in my first interview with James Madden that humans are natural cave builders. All of the greatest achievements of civilization have required that we be able to create shared worldviews and agreed upon meanings for things. It’s our superpower every bit as much as it is our weakness. And I think it’s important to keep in mind that just because we find ourselves in a cave doesn’t necessarily mean that someone put us there. The walls of the cave could be entirely self-created.

And yet, when you find yourself tied up in a cave and recognize that the very nature of your reality has been concealed, seemingly intentionally, it’s impossible not to wonder about who your potential captors might be–and about what strange new world might be waiting for you outside its walls.

Over the past several years a strange and disturbing idea has been popularized by everyone from futurists to tech billionaires–namely that we are living in a simulation. Could this be the explanation for the strange position in which we find ourselves? Could Plato’s Cave be more than just an allegory? Could what we perceive as our reality actually be our prison?

It sounds like the plot of The Matrix, but the more we learn, the more likely this unsettling scenario becomes. Buckle up, because this rabbit hole is going to be a wild ride.


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Ryan Sprague is the creator and host of the Somewhere in the Skies podcast and the author of the new book Stories from Somewhere in the Skies. He is a regular on Ancient Aliens (History Channel) and a lead investigator and co-host of Mysteries Decoded (CW Network). Sprague’s research finds him interviewing witnesses, scientists, military personnel, and intelligence officials directly on UFOs, writing for The Debrief. Speaking on UFOs, he has been featured on ABC News and 7News Australia. He has consulted for Amblin Entertainment and been featured in Newsweek, The NY Post, and VICE.



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Books by Ryan Sprague:

• Stories from Somewhere In The Skies
• Somewhere In The Skies: A Human Approach To The UFO Phenomenon

In this episode, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Avi Loeb. Dr. Loeb was the longest serving chair of Harvard's Department of Astronomy from 2011–2020. In June 2020, he was sworn in as a member of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology. And, most relevant to today’s conversation, he is also currently the head of Harvard’s Galileo Project whose mission is the systematic scientific search for evidence of extraterrestrial technological artifacts.


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MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE
The article written by Avi Loeb & Sean Kirkpatrick:
Physical Constraints on Unidentified Aerial Phenomena

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CONTACT IN THE DESERT
See Dr. Avi Loeb, Graham Hancock, George Noory and many more incredible speakers at Contact in the Desert taking place June 2-4, 2023.

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Today we welcome back Dr. James Madden to the show. As I’m sure you’ll recall, Jim joined us a couple of months ago for a discussion about Plato’s Cave. We also discussed some of his latest work applying the philosophical concept of the umwelt to the UFO phenomenon. And I was really excited to see that that episode has become one of the most listened to episodes of the podcasts, because it’s definitely one of my favorites. If you haven’t listened to that episode yet, I highly recommend that you go back to that one first. Jim’s work builds on itself, and it will be helpful to lay down the foundation with that episode before moving onto this one.

In this episode, we’ll be moving on to Dr. Madden’s latest work. Over the last few months, in a flurry of articles released through his Substack, Jim has laid out a series of arguments as to the nature of the UFO phenomenon that are, frankly, mind blowing. It’s not over-stating things to say that what Jim has done is to essentially break ufology–and I mean that in the best possible way.

Because, in many ways, it’s been clear to anyone who is really paying attention that the traditional models and ontologies that have dominated modern ufology have needed to break. We began this podcast talking about what the UFO phenomenon might be, and we did a deep dive into the primary hypotheses including extraterrestrial, ultraterrestrial, interdimensional, extraterrestrial, etc. And all of those models are really useful for helping us to push our thinking about what the intelligence behind UFOs may represent. But if we’re being really honest with ourselves, we have to admit that none of them really fit. They come close in some ways, fall short in others, and ultimately leave us feeling like we’re trying to stretch a full-sized sheet over a queen-sized bed.

What we’ve needed–desperately–is a model that would collapse all of those ontological categories and integrate them into a larger, more coherent whole. And I’d argue that what Dr. Madden is postulating with regard to the UFO phenomenon does exactly that. I truly believe that what he is pointing to here is the future of ufology. This work is urgent and critically important for us moving forward.



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DR. JAMES MADDEN’S WORK
The Substack
Articles Referenced In This Episode:

• UFO Realism and the Uber-Umwelt
• Unidentified Flying Hyperobject
• Magonia as Hyperobject
• The UFO, Religion, and Our Epistemic Vulnerability

Today I’m bringing you something really special. A few weeks ago, Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka reached out to connect me with someone she thought I might be interested in interviewing for the podcast. Her name is Dr. Iya Whiteley and she is a space psychologist who is featured in Diana’s upcoming book due out in November entitled, Encounters: Experiences with Nonhuman Intelligences.

Given the respect that I have for Diana and her work, her recommendation alone would have been enough for me to say yes. But the more she shared with me about Dr. Whiteley and her work, it became clear to me that this was an interview that I absolutely had to do.

This conversation touched me deeply, and I hope it speaks to you the way that it spoke to me.

MEET DR. IYA WHITELEY
Dr. Iya Whiteley is a training developer for Astronauts with a background in Clinical Psychology and Cognitive Engineering. She leverages her skills and expertise, combined with her own insights and experiences as a pilot, skydiver, and scuba diver, to design both equipment and training programmes to improve the performance of highly trained professionals in extreme environments, including military pilots and astronauts.

Iya has also worked at the European Astronaut Centre (European Space Agency) in Cologne, Germany and now collaborates with NASA and the Gagarin Cosmonaut Training Centre in Star City, Russia.

Since having her own children, Iya has been using her unique skillset to work on laying the groundwork for a universal “Earth language”. To this end, she has designed high contrast black and white visual books for newborns to tap into their full developmental potential and give them the best possible start on our unique planet Earth.

MEET DR. DIANA WALSH PASULKA

Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka is a professor of religious studies and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. She holds a bachelor’s from UC Davis, a master’s from Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from Syracuse University. She is the author of Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory in Catholic Devotional and Popular Culture and American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology, which we will be discussing in this interview.



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DR. IYA WHITELEY LINKS
Contact Dr. Iya Whiteley [Private Practice Website]
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DR. DIANA PASULKA LINKS
American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology
PRE-ORDER: Encounters: Explorations with Extraterrestrial and Other Non-Human Intelligence (Out Nov. 7, 2023)
Follow Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka on Twitter

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As predicted, 2023 has already been a massive year for the UFO disclosure movement. As we seemingly gain momentum, and with a fresh round of congressional hearings on UAPs potentially just around the corner, this felt like the perfect moment to dive into the progress made so far.

And there’s no one better for this conversation than Christopher Sharp of the Liberation Times. Chris is an independent journalist hailing from the UK who has consistently been beating the mainstream media to the punch on some of the biggest stories related to UFO disclosure. The nuance and deep investigation that he brings to his work is one of the very few beacons of true journalism in this field. Beyond his work with the Liberation Times, Chris also regularly writes for the Daily Mail.

In this episode Chris shares:

🛸 What he's hearing from his sources about the origins of the mysterious objects shot down in Feb
🛸 The surprising source for the push for disclosure
🛸 What we can expect from upcoming Congressional UFO hearings (and when those might happen)
🛸 The scandal hiding in plain sight that has Congress finally clocking in on the UFO issue
🛸 And more



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In this episode, I talk to Thomas J. Carey, the co-author of UFO Secrets Inside Wright-Patterson. Along with his co-author, Donald R. Schmitt, Carey has spent over 30 years investigating the Roswell incident and tracing the trail of the materials and bodies that were recovered there all the way to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base and beyond. They have published a dozen books on the subject (links below).

Among the many stunning revelations in this episode is the true identity and location of the fabled Hangar 18, the 2 undeniable smoking guns of the Roswell incident, an in-depth account of what became of the infamous “memory metal” recovered at Roswell, and detailed accounts of the non-human pilots of these craft.



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THE CONFERENCE HAS BEEN POSTPONED. NEW DATES WILL BE ANNOUNCED SOON.

THE SPEAKERS

James Fox | Moment of Contact
Bryce Zabel | Need To Know
Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka | American Cosmic
Dr. Michael Masters | The Extratempestrial Model
Micah Hanks | Debrief Media
ExoAcademian | Point of Convergence
Jay Christopher King | The Experiencer Group
Kelly Chase | The UFO Rabbit Hole
Phil Ford | Weird Studies
J.F. Martel | Weird Studies




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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Interludes: Particles by Nobou

TIMESTAMPS

00:00:34 The Ohio UFO Heritage Conference
00:12:42 Meet Conference Co-Chair, Jon Horvath
00:22:20 Meet Dr. Michael Masters
00:32:41 Meet Bryce Zabel
00:57:17 Meet Phil Ford & J.F. Martel from Weird Studies

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In many ways, our trip down the rabbit hole has been leading us, inevitably, to this episode. It’s in this episode that we reach a decisive inflection point. Nothing will be the same after this—maybe not even you.

Over the previous 18 episodes, I have done my best to make the case, not only that the UFO phenomenon is real, but that the complexity, ubiquity, and unintelligibility of the phenomenon are so great as to suggest that many of our most fundamental assumptions about the nature of reality itself may be incorrect.

This episode is my closing argument in the case of The Phenomenon vs. Consensus Reality. And when it’s done, I hope that you’ll agree with me that it’s time to burn it all down. Or at the very least, I hope you’ll agree that perhaps it’s time to consider some new models of reality that have the potential to reintroduce meaning and intelligibility into our broken world where impossible things won’t stop happening.

In this episode, we’ll begin by talking about what’s broken with our current models including the Big Bang, the hard problem of consciousness, quantum mechanics, and space-time. And we begin to ask, what do our broken models suggest about the nature of the cave that we find ourselves in? And what does all of this have to do with UFOs?



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LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka
Ep 18: An Interview with Dr. James Madden

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May 5th & 6th at the historic Hope Hotel at Wright Patterson Air Force Base

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TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Introduction
00:04:03 The “Official Story of Everything”
00:07:00 The Dream of the Cave
00:13:55 Everything You Know Is Wrong
00:19:45 The Big Bang
00:29:28 The Ghost in the Machine
00:37:35 Music Break
00:38:32 The Hard Problem of Consciousness
00:45:52 Quantum Mechanics Breaks Everything
00:55:22 Space-Time Is Doomed
00:57:35 The Emperor Has No Clothes
01:01:25 The Walls of the Cave

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In this episode, I’m bringing you an interview with Dr. James Madden, professor of philosophy at Benedictine University. He is a martial artist, fitness coach, and philosopher with particular interest in the philosophy of mind, aesthetics, philosophy of religion, Aristotelianism, and phenomenology.

If you’ll recall from the last episode, Diana mentioned Dr. Madden as someone who shared her “spooky” interpretation of the Cave. I first met Jim when he was a speaker in one of Diana’s classes over the summer on this subject, and I really enjoyed learning from him. He has a really coherent way of placing the Cave within its proper context both within Plato’s Republic and within its historical context that opens up these ideas in inspiring and challenging ways.

So that’s where we’ll start, with an hour-long deep dive into Plato’s Cave, and what it implies for the nature of both reality and the UFO phenomenon. And then in the second half of the interview, we’ll turn to Dr. Madden’s latest philosophical work with regard to the phenomenon including what Heidegger reveals to us about the life and work of Godfather of Modern Ufology, Jaques Vallee, what Aristotle’s natural theology suggests about the potential nature of non-human intelligence, and how that work is being continued in the modern day by Dr. Jeffrey Kripal of Rice University. And finally, we’ll explore Dr. Madden’s fascinating hypothesis for the origins of the UFO phenomenon through the concept of the “umwelt”.

I hope you all enjoy this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it. This is my longest episode to date because we were having such a blast that I completely lost track of time. And when I went back to listen again, there wasn’t anything that I wanted to cut out. If you enjoy wading out into the deep end of the UFO phenomenon, this episode is for you.



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LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If these ideas are new to you, you might find it helpful to go back and listen to the previous two episodes to get greater context.
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race
Ep 17: An Interview with Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka

GO TO EPISODE BRIEF FOR ALL RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE

FIND MORE OF DR. JAMES MADDEN’S WORK
Dr. James Madden’s Website
Dr. James Madden’s Substack
Online Course: Heidegger’s The Question Concerning Technology
UFO Realism and the Uber-Umwelt
Aristotle, Myth, and Extraterrestrial Intelligences

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Music Break: Golden Hour by Jonas Kolberg




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In this episode, I’m bringing you an interview with one of my personal heroes, Dr. Diana Walsh Paslka. Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka is a professor of religious studies and Chair of the Department of Philosophy and Religion at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington. She holds a bachelor’s from UC Davis, a master’s from Berkeley, and a Ph.D. from Syracuse University. She is the author of Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory in Catholic Devotional and Popular Culture and American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology, which we will be discussing in this interview.



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LISTEN TO THESE EPISODES FIRST
If you aren’t already familiar with Diana’s work, you’ll definitely want to start with these two episodes before listening to this interview to get the full context of our conversation.
Ep 11: Nazis & UFOs [Pt. 1]: The Emergence Of UFO Lore
Ep 16: The Sky Calls To Us: The Occult Origins Of The Space Race

GET DR. DIANA WALSH PASULKA’S BOOKS
American Cosmic: UFO’s, Religion Technology
Heaven Can Wait: Purgatory In Catholic Devotional And Popular Culture

MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE
The Question Concerning Technology by Martin Heidegger
What Is Called Thinking? by Martin Heidegger
Discourse On Thinking by Martin Heidegger
I, Product by Jacques Vallee
Society of the Spectacle by Guy Dubord
Republic by Plato
Dr. James Madden
Marie Mutsuki Mockett
2001: A Space Odyssey
Nope

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TIMESTAMPS
00:00:30 Intro
00:05:03 How does a scholar of religion end up writing a book about UFOs? [Backstory of American Cosmic]
00:10:57 Why the next big breakthrough in the space program will come from the field of religious studies.
00:14:33 What can we learn from studying Tyler’s protocols?
00:18:14 What should we make of the simplicity of Tyler’s protocols?
00:22:43 What is Tyler communicating with?
00:26:07 What’s going on in the space program?
00:30:25 Civil religion & UFOs
00:34:11 Having a front row seat to the birth of a myth/belief/religion
00:38:15 Diana’s transition from UFO atheist to UFO agnostic
00:43:39 “The Question Concerning Technology” by Martin Heidegger
00:57:36 What does the Monolith in Stanley Kubrick’s 2001: A Space Odyssey tell us about the relationship between media and technology?
01:04:39 Jordan Peele’s Nope and the relationship between media and belief
01:08:32 Society of the Spectacle
01:13:17 Plato’s Cave
01:24:21 Plato’s Republic & the impossibility of justice
01:26:45 Ontological shock & re-entering the cave
01:29:34 The danger of Technology
01:34:48 What to expect from Diana’s new book

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In this episode, we’re discussing one of the most profound transitions in human history–that of our evolution from a terrestrial species to a spacefaring one. And as we examine the history and origins of the space programs in both the United States and the Soviet Union, we discover one of the most remarkable and baffling stories ever told, hiding in plain sight.

To put it simply, many of the fathers of modern space flight were occultists who believed themselves to be in direct communication with non-human intelligences who were helping to guide their work. While their claims sound too extraordinary to even be considered, the startling breadth and innovation of the work that they claim sprang for this paranormal communication makes it difficult not to wonder if perhaps there might have been something to those claims.

We’ll discuss the work of Jack Parsons, an intrepid young rocket scientist and occultist who palled around with the likes of Aleister Crowley, L. Ron Hubbard, and Howard Hughes, whose remarkable life was cut short by his mysterious death at 37. And we’ll also explore the work of Russian Cosmists like Konstantine Tsiolkovsky whose prophetic work seemingly foretold the intricate details of space flight decades before Yuri Gagarin became the first man in space.

And once again, we’ll look at Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka’s phenomenal book American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology clues to whether these occult practices might still be in use among top members of the space program today. And the answers are, frankly, shocking.

In this episode we’ll begin to ask some of the most important questions that will follow us on our journey forward:

What is the occult? What does the occult have to do with UFOs? How is it that so many “impossible” things seem to have a basis in reality? And what do we do when our models of reality stop working?

Welcome back to The UFO Rabbit Hole.



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It's a brand new year, and I have so many exciting updates to share with you all about the podcast—including the fact that you're about to get a WHOLE LOT more episodes! Get all of these updates, including when you can expect episode 16, in this quick bonus episode.





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Welcome back to The UFO Rabbit Hole podcast. Today we turn our attention to our nearest neighbor, and the anchor for some of those most compelling and mysterious stories in the UFO lore—the Moon.

Hanging serenely in the night sky, its face unchanging aside from the precise pendulum swing of the lunar cycle, the Moon is our constant companion. It’s the one heavenly body that we can easily observe with the naked eye, and as such it feels deeply familiar to us.

But what if there is more to the Moon than we ever realized? It’s an unnerving thought to consider that the Moon as we know it might not be what we think it is at all. But that’s exactly what the deep UFO lore surrounding the Moon suggests.

In this episode we’ll discuss theories for the origins of the Moon (including the theory that it might be an alien superstructure), the mysteries surrounding the Apollo missions and the moon landing, what some of the top astronauts from the early space program have said about the Moon, and we’ll even tell a story about Neil Armstrong that I, frankly, straight up didn’t believe the first time I heard it.



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The Full Ross Coulthart Interview On Theories Of Everything With Curt Jaimungal

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Outro: Moon by Space DovesSupport the show

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In the final installment of our series on Nazis & UFOs, we’re doing a deep dive on one of the most beloved—and most mysterious—stories in the lore: that of Admiral Byrd, Operation Highjump, and Hollow Earth.

Rumors have abounded for decades that, after WWII, what remained of the Third Reich escaped to a sprawling secret base under the ice in Antarctica—the mythical Station 211. But could this story be more than a mere wartime legend?In 1947, the largest military operation since the end of the war embarked from the United States to Antarctica, allegedly on a scientific expedition. But could Operation Highjump, lead by famed explorer and America hero, Admiral Richard E. Byrd, have had another mission? Could they have been in search of the fabled Nazi base?

What they found in Antarctica has been a matter of much debate, with some saying that they encountered secret Nazi technology—including the infamous flying saucer—and still others claim that Admiral Byrd made contact with a super advanced race of humanoids from Hollow Earth.

Could any of this possibly be true? We’ll investigate and find out.



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Airflow by Evgeny Bardyuzha
Free Radicals by Stanley Gurvich

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In part 3 of the Nazis & UFOs series we explore the soure of some of the most outlandish and intriguing stories in UFO lore—Antarctica.

In 1938, Nazi Germany made an expedition to Antarctica where they claimed territory. What could have compelled them to make that investment of time and resources in the lead up to WWII? Were they looking for something? And could they have found it?After the war, rumors swirled that what remained of the Third Reich escaped to secret bases in Antarctica, and from there the mystique only grew. Since then, a baroque mythology has sprung up around the southernmost continent, with each new twist and turn only adding to mystery.

Today, we’ll dive into some of the most popular—and bizarre—theories as to what the Nazis may have found in Antarctica—including the lost city of Atlantis, an unknown ancient culture from the distant past, secret alien bases, and more.



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GOOGLE EARTH LINKS
The Azores
The Pyramid in Antarctica

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In part 2 of our 3 part series on the intersection of Nazi and UFO lore during WWII, we’ll be diving into two major themes of this mythology: the occult and secret technology. We’ll be getting into everything in this episode: German occult clubs, Theosophy, secret technology, Die Glocke, foo fighters, the search for the Holy Grail and other relics, and more.

And as we begin to untangle this dense and sprawling lore, we’ll see a new narrative being to emerge—one of humanity grappling with the unthinkable.



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MENTIONED IN EPISODE
UFOs Before Roswell: European Foo-Fighters 1940-1945 by Graeme Rendall

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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break 1: My Lord by Yarin Primack
Music Break 2: Jakub Pietras

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In part one of this 3-part series on the UFO lore connected to WWII and Nazi Germany, we begin by doing a deep dive into the emergence of UFO lore itself. While there is a ton of UFO lore connected to WWII, what is largely considered to be the first modern UFO sighting didn’t happen until 1947—2 years after the war ended. So to understand exactly what was going on during WWII, we need to first understand, not just how UFO lore first emerged, but how belief systems in general emerge and evolve over time.

We’ll talk about the ontological complexity of the 20th century, the sequence of events in 1947 that shaped our modern understanding of the phenomenon, and dive deeper into the mystery surrounding the lore to ask some of the bigger questions. This includes one question that I never thought I’d ask, which is—could the emergence of UFO mythology be the seeds of a modern religion?A massive shout out to Diana Walsh Pasulka for her incredible book, American Cosmic, which helped me look at the phenomenon in a whole new light and played a big role in shaping this episode.



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MENTIONED IN EPISODE:
American Cosmic: UFOs, Religion, Technology by D.W. Pasulka
In Plain Sight: An Investigation Into UFOs and Impossible Science by Ross Coulthart
Luis Elizondo on EarthFiles with Linda Moutlon Howe

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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson

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In the final part of this 3 part series, A Rational Approach to Ancient Aliens, we finally get to the good stuff—non-human intervention and cyclical global cataclysms. We’ll start by taking a tour of some of the most mysterious archeological sites in the world: from Puma Punku in Bolivia to Baalbek in Lebanon. We’ll even talk about a sunken city off the coast of Cuba that may be 50,000 years old.

Do these anomalous sites prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the ancient alien theory is true, and that human civilization was guided—or perhaps even seeded—but a super advanced intelligence in the distant past?

And finally, we’ll look at the evidence surrounding the cataclysm that kicked off the Younger Dryas as well as examine the possibility that a more dramatic and profound cycle of global disasters may be responsible for shaping human history.



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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break 1: Asturias by Alon Peretz
Music Break 2: Ancient by Nimrod Nol

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In this episode we dive into part 2 of our series on the concept of ancient aliens by examining whether or not the UFO phenomenon may have played some role in the emergence of human civilization.

Human civilization is the manifestation of everything that makes the human species so unique—but how did it evolve? Where did it come from? To attempt to answer this question we’ll look at how we define civilization and how we identify it in the archeological record. We’ll look at the story of human civilization according to mainstream academics, as well as evidence that this story is incorrect.And finally, we’ll begin to discuss how the story of human civilization might be rewritten, and the role that the UFO phenomenon may have played—along with other startling possibilities.



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Over the last seven episodes, we’ve established that the Pentagon has admitted that UFOs are real, that they are operating with impunity in our airspace, and that we don’t know what they are. We’ve talked through some of the most common explanations for what the UFO phenomenon might be, considering everything from secret human technology to future humans and from extraterrestrials to ultraterrestrials. We’ve also met some—though certainly not all of the main players in the current disclosure movement.

Although we’ve covered a lot of ground, when it comes to understanding the full scope of the UFO phenomenon and its implications for humankind, we’ve barely scratched the surface.

In this episode, we’ll begin to tackle some of the most fundamental questions raised by the UFO phenomenon—starting with the question of whether the UFO phenomenon may have had an influence on our ancestors in the distant past. For many, this line of questioning brings to mind Ancient Aliens, and the ancient astronaut theory, but there are other equally startling and profound possibilities that are suggested by the evidence as well—including the idea that the story of human civilization is far longer and far more dazzling that we ever imagined.

But before we can begin to truly tackle these questions, we need to spend some time talking about the epistemology of archeology—what do we know, what can we know, and how sure are we that the established narrative of human history is correct?

We’ll do a quick intro to epistemology, discuss some of the verification challenges that exist within archeology, explore the limits of our current dating techniques and the unique challenges that we encounter in attempting to date megalithic structures. We’ll also look at the academia and the peer review system to identify the ways that the most innovative and potentially impactful ideas can be systematically rejected and marginalized. And finally, we’ll talk about the difference between science and pseudoscience, and establish a simple framework that we can use to tell the difference between the two.



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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson
Music Break: Waking From The Dream by Charlie Ryan

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In this episode, we pick up with Tom Delonge where we left off in Part 2—with the stunning and unlikely events that led to the formation of the To The Stars Academy of Arts & Sciences and ultimately to the Pentagon’s admission that UFOs are real.

So what happened to TTSA? What are the original TTSA members (including Lou Elizondo, Chris Mellon, Jim Semivan, Hal Puthoff, and Steve Justice) doing now? In this episode we’ll get an update. We’ll also explore why it is, that despite his astonishing success and ultimate vindication, that Tom Delonge continues to be a controversial figure in the UFO community.

And finally, we’ll get to the part that everyone has been waiting for—what does Tom Delonge believe about the UFO phenomenon? It’s been confirmed that Delonge’s advisors within the government weren’t just real, but they are the very people who would know what secrets the government might be hiding about UFOs. So with this insider knowledge and guidance, one has to assume that what Delonge says publicly about his beliefs surrounding the phenomena has been shaped significantly by his exposure to and briefings by these individuals. Which is exactly why what Tom Delonge has to say about UFOs is so shocking.

You won’t want to miss this one.


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Hidden in plain sight, right smack dab in the middle of the growing UFO disclosure movement of the past 5 years, is a story so strange, so entirely unexpected that you wouldn’t be blamed for mistaking it for fiction—but it’s true.

Within the events and cast of characters around the infamous New York Times article and the leaked U.S. Navy videos that confirmed the reality of the UFO phenomenon one unlikely figure stands out among the crowd of former CIA agents, aerospace executives, and other high-ranking officials—pop punk icon, Tom Delonge. But the notorious UFO enthusiast and former Blink 182 frontman doesn’t just make a cameo in this story—without him, there would likely have been no story to tell.

In part one of this story, we’ll explore how Tom Delonge’s early life and road to stardom set him on a collision course with this important moment in history, the shocking story of how he assembled his team for the To The Stars Academy of Arts & Sciences, and the pivotal role that he played in the events that led to the Pentagon’s stunning admission that UFOs are, in fact, real.

Hear the full interview of Ross Coulthart on Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal.



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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson

Music by Rival Tides
Music Break: Vultures! [Instrumental]
Outro Music: All My Friends Are Stoned [Instrumental

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Although the UFO phenomenon tends to be associated with aliens, there are a few even more fantastical theories about its origins.

Many of most respected scientists and researchers in ufology don't think that the evidence points to any of the more conventional explanations—and that whoever is creating UFOs might not be from the stars at all, but from right here on Earth.

But how could an advanced civilization be here without our knowledge? In this episode we explore the possible answers.



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Theme: Cabinet of Curiosities by Shaun Frearson

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Although the UFO phenomenon tends to be associated with extraterrestrial visitors from other worlds, could the explanation lie closer to home? Could these craft actually be humans from the future?

Since the publishing of his ground-breaking book, In Plain Sight: An Investigation Into UFOs & Impossible Science, acclaimed investigative journalist, Ross Coulthart has begun to open up about a startling claim he says is coming from his contacts at the highest levels of our government—that UFOs are future human technology. Could this astonishing claim possibly be true?

We dive into this question on this week's episode of The UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast.



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In this episode of The UFO Rabbit Hole Podcast we dive into the question of whether UFOs could actually be human technology.

Could this be a massive government cover up? Could disclosure be a psyop designed to consolidate power and instigate war? Or could this technology belong to one of our adversaries?

And what would it take for us to consider other more "exotic" alternatives? Does it even make sense to consider non-human technology as a possibility?

The answers might surprise you. Welcome back to the UFO Rabbit Hole.



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The Pentagon has admitted that UFOs are real, that they violate our airspace with impunity, and that we have no idea what they are.

An elite group of military intelligence insiders—including the former head of the Pentagon's secret UFO program, Luis Elizondo—have stepped forward to advocate for greater transparency around this baffling phenomenon. In May of 2022, Congress held the first hearings on the topic in over 50 years.

So what the heck is going on? Could this possibly be true?

The UFO Rabbit Hole is a structured, rational, science-based deep dive into these puzzling developments in an attempt to answer that very question. Grounded enough for skeptics, accessible enough for newbs, and meticulously researched enough for the most battle-hardened ufologists, this podcast is an essential guide for anyone who wants to understand more about most the most baffling and compelling news story of our times.



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PRAISE FOR THE UFO RABBIT HOLE PODCAST

Finally!
“Kelly Chase has done what so many others have failed miserably at: discuss this topic reasonably. This subject’s landscape is littered with overinflated egos carrying on about what they claim to know and how you’d respond if only you knew what they knew to interviewers who eagerly enable their dangerously self-serving rhetoric. Enter Kelly Chase, a genuinely curious host who questions everything and claims nothing. Her approach is the best I’ve encountered anywhere.”
—ANewLeif via Apple Podcasts · USA · 09/03/22

The best podcast on the topic
“This is hands down the best UFO podcast around. Each episode is incredibly well researched and has a nice balance of belief and skepticism, Kelly is an incredible storyteller and she manages to easily and clearly explain complicated concepts that some struggle with. I’m convinced that if she were to turn her episode scripts into a book, it would be a bestseller.”
—DevilBoi69x via Apple Podcasts · USA · 08/31/22

Finally, a UFO deep-dive that feels authentic!
“I love this topic, but it also attracts a lot of kooks due to the highly interpretive subject matter. It’s been difficult to find creators that feel like they’re doing their absolute best to remain unbiased and drive us closer to the source of truth. Kelly does an excellent job of getting us further into the rabbit hole without compromising her integrity or the trust of her audience. From the very first episode I could tell this was going to be a fun and fascinating ride, and so far I’m hooked!”
—Tt0n0 via Apple Podcasts · USA · 10/14/22

Brilliant!
“This is absolutely brilliant! The integration of UFO information with philosophy has been transformative. I have leaned so much and, more importantly, think about our world in a new way.”
—Von Economo via Apple Podcasts · USA · 09/30/22

Highly Intelligent Analysis
“Coming from someone who has spent tens of thousands of hours researching this field, this was a refreshing delight. Dissecting this already extremely complex field is really hard. How does one lay out information on a topic which no one actually knows what’s going on? Well Kelly does a wonderful job covering the vast array of very interesting linked topics.”
—Timfdkbshvcd via Apple Podcasts · Australia · 09/22/22

Brilliant podcast on the phenomenon!
“I’ve recently discovered this podcast and want to tell everyone I know to listen to it! It’s a brilliant show for absolute beginners but also for the UFO enthusiast. Kelly is so thoughtful & mapped out a vision for how to unfold this insanely complex topic. She shares many perspectives on the topic, weaving in her own synthesis and opinions as well. She is light hearted and witty while also being a fantastic researcher.”
—Hathor1320 via Apple Podcasts · USA · 09/20/22

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