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Leslie Kean has done more than almost anyone else to advance the contemporary UFO conversation. Her 2017 New York Times article changed the landscape overnight by introducing the world to the Navy UFO videos, Lue Elizondo, and AATIP. In 2019, she reported on pilot sightings by Ryan Graves and others in another widely read Times article. In 2023, she broke the story of David Grusch's whistleblower report in a famous piece for The Debrief. 

Leslie wrote her first UFO story in 2000 for the Boston Globe, and in 2011, she published her book "UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record," which remains one of the clearest and most useful works ever written on this challenging topic. 

She also produces the series "UFOs: Investigating the Unknown," which offers an excellent, serious introduction to the subject. Both seasons are available now here: https://www.hulu.com/series/4c1070e7-5b4d-46e1-a5ee-b9eb0c7db18c 

Finally, Leslie has explored other mysterious phenomena in her book "Surviving Death: A Journalist Explores the Evidence for an Afterlife," which was adapted by Netflix for a series of the same name: https://www.netflix.com/title/80998853 

We're extremely grateful to Leslie for her sharp, clear, insightful and courageous work, and we're honored that she shared her time and wisdom with us for this conversation. 

Show note—we discuss the Wilson-Davis memo briefly, but only to establish its provenance. The TLDR on this document is that it contains the notes from an alleged conversation between physicist Eric Davis and Admiral Thomas R. Wilson. According to these notes, Wilson told Davis that in his role as Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, he uncovered a secret UFO crash retrieval and reverse engineering program while conducting an audit of Defense expenditures, and the program heads refused to give him direct access, despite his high rank. The Admiral has called this memo fiction, but as we discuss in this episode, he may have been legally required to do so if the program was or is real. You can read the memo in full here, or access the Congressional record version below: https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20074164-wilson-davis-document/ 

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Leslie's Site: https://www.lesliekean.com/ 

Leslie's UFO Show: https://www.hulu.com/series/4c1070e7-5b4d-46e1-a5ee-b9eb0c7db18c 

Leslie's UFO Book: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089/ 

Leslie's Afterlife Book: https://www.amazon.com/Surviving-Death-Journalist-Investigates-Afterlife/dp/0451497147/ 

2020 Globe Article: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-boston-globe-leslie-kean-boston-ufo/148614188/ 

2017 Times Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/16/us/politics/pentagon-program-ufo-harry-reid.html 

2019 Times Article: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/26/us/politics/ufo-sightings-navy-pilots.html 

2023 Debrief Article: https://thedebrief.org/intelligence-officials-say-u-s-has-retrieved-non-human-craft/ 

Wilson-Davis Memo (Congressional Record Version):  https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20074164-wilson-davis-document/ 

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Dr. Zimmerman has led a long, fruitful career in philosophy and academia, pioneering work on environmental and technological subjects. He also collaborated with John Mack on research into abduction experiences and served on the board of Mack's nonprofit to advance that project. 

We discuss Michael's view of the experiencer phenomenon, his work with Mack, the potential qualities of NHI, and broader topics in consciousness, philosophy, and the nature of reality. 

Dr. Zimmerman's Papers: 

Encountering Alien Otherness 
https://www.academia.edu/82397884/Encountering_Alien_Otherness 

The "Alien Abduction" Phenomenon 
https://philpapers.org/rec/ZIMT-3 

Michael on Wikipedia 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_E._Zimmerman 

John Mack Institute 
http://johnemackinstitute.org/  

Est-Training 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erhard_Seminars_Training 

Ken Wilber 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Wilber 

David Jacobs 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_M._Jacobs 

Communion 
https://www.amazon.com/Audible-Communion/dp/B0B4F3NRCQ 

Program for Extraordinary Experiences 
http://johnemackinstitute.org/2003/01/program-for-extraordinary-experience-research-peer/ 

Bruce Maccabee 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Maccabee 

Chariots of the Gods? 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariots_of_the_Gods%3F 

UFOs and Nukes 
https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Nukes-Extraordinary-Encounters-Nuclear/dp/1544822197 

Karin Austin 
https://impossiblearchives.rice.edu/john-e-mack-gift-panel-discussion/karin-austin 

Reddit Alleged Alien Autopsy Doc 
https://www.reddit.com/r/aliens/comments/14rp7w9/from_the_late_2000s_to_the_mid2010s_i_worked_as_a/ 

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Dr. Jack Sarfatti is a sparkling, adventurous thinker, and he's been applying his technical acumen to UFOs in various ways for an astounding 70 years. 

Jack says he was charged by the CIA in 1974 with investigating consciousness and UFOs, and in the years since then he believes he has successfully developed physics explanations for both. 

We discuss Dr. Sarfatti's career, his ideas about the physics of UFOs, his intersections with intelligence officers and other serious researchers, and the intriguing childhood event that helped set him on the path of investigating the phenomenon. 

Buckle up for a wild ride and bring your thinking caps. Jack has a freewheeling style that hops across time, space and reality, always with a twinkling grin. 

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Dr. Sarfatti ~ UAP Physics Primer: https://vimeo.com/554469177 

Dr. Sarfatti ~ Relativity and Warp Drives: https://vimeo.com/878602695 

How the Hippies Saved Physics: https://www.amazon.com/dp/039334231X 

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Alejandro is president and CEO of the non-profit UAP Discovery and a consultant for Enigma Labs, which has developed a UAP reporting app and alert network. He also runs the UAP news website OpenMinds.tv. Alejandro is a founding member of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies (SCU) and a former board member. He is also the former functioning director of education and spokesperson for the Mutual UFO Network (MUFON). He has spent over 20 years researching and writing about UFOs and over ten years as a full-time employee doing this work. Alejandro's articles have appeared in the Huffington Post and Den of Geek, and he's been featured in numerous documentaries, television shows, and news interviews. 

We discuss common UFO sighting mistakes, the state of UAP science, and best practices for healthy dialogue on this exciting and sometimes heated subject. 

Alejandro's Links: https://linktr.ee/alejandrotrojas 

UAP Discovery: https://uapdiscovery.org/ 

Enigma Labs: https://www.enigmalabs.io/ 

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Dr. Engels teaches philosophy at Molloy University, specializing in existentialism and phenomenology. She also leads Research and Development at the John Mack Institute, where she works to bring experiencer narratives into more scientific and public frameworks, and teaches independent courses on Shamanism and UFO/UAP experiences. 

We discuss the state of experiencer research and the intersection of Dr. Engels' philosophical specialties with the UFO/NHI phenomenon. 

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Nick's background in media technology put him in contact with many government agencies, which helped him see our legal system as approachable and human. He founded Declassify UAP to help people contact their elected representatives and press for greater transparency on the subject. 

This wide-ranging conversation covers everything from Nick's technical experience to the status of transparency advocacy to the metaphysical oneness of being and action. It's a doozy, and Nick's preternaturally articulate flow keeps it tripping along. Hope you enjoy! 

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Thomas is a movie star. He's played lead roles in major films like The Punisher and The Predator, and TV shows like Hung and The Expanse. He manages entertainment companies, directs, produces and stars in film and TV projects, and writes both fiction and nonfiction. He's also a long-time UFO researcher with a forthcoming book about the phenomenon. 

We talk about the state of human life, the motives, behaviors and diversity of potential visiting NHI, and how we should proceed into the next era of our species' interaction. 

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Links from our chat: 

NICAP 1952 Sightings: https://www.nicap.org/chronos/1952FIXED.htm 

UFOs: The Secret History: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Secret-History/dp/1569247013 

Above Top Secret: https://www.amazon.com/Above-Top-Secret-Worldwide-U-F/dp/0688092020 

UFOs and the National Security State 

Part 1 https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-Chronology/dp/1571743170 

Part 2 https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-National-Security-State-1973-1991/dp/0967799511 

UFOs: Generals, Pilots, and Government Officials Go on the Record https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Generals-Pilots-Government-Officials/dp/0307717089 

UFOs: A Scientist Explains What We Know (And Don't Know) https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Scientist-Explains-What-Know/dp/1538173581 

UFO Sightings Desk Reference https://www.amazon.com/UFO-Sightings-Desk-Reference-2001-2015/dp/1544219237

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Grant Cameron has been researching UFOs for over 50 years. He's a prolific writer and speaker, with over 20 publications to his name. 

Grant's interview with us is freewheeling and intense. To be honest, we don't know what to make of some of his claims. However, we respect his lifelong commitment to the subject and we're grateful he chose to share so much of his precious time with us. 

As we say at the top of the episode, this one's not for beginners. Seasoned UFO thinkers will have a better toolkit for navigating bizarre, surprising and/or dubious truth claims. If you're in the early days of your UFO journey, you might want to start with another episode, or just prepare yourself to onboard this information with careful consideration. 

It may be mostly true or partly true or mostly false, but no one could call this deluge boring. Grant's poured his soul into this research, and we're proud to share his views in our Season 3 finale.

Thank you for continuing this fascinating journey with us. We hope you're having fun! 

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Grant on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Mr.-Grant-Cameron/author/B00EFGCJRC 

Grant referenced over three dozen interesting research trailheads, from people to programs to songs to buildings. We've included them in a post on our site so you can check them out yourself: https://wtufo.com/s3e13-grant-cameron-ufo-researcher-and-writer/

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Dr. Matthew Szydagis teaches physics at the University at Albany and researches dark matter with the Lux-Zeplin project. He's also a scientist with UAPx where he participated in the first UAP expedition in 2021. 

We discuss funding for UAP research, what UAPx learned from their expedition and what they'd like to do next, potential explanations for UAP behavior, and other topics. 

UAPx Expedition Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00558 

Matthew's Catastrophic Disclosure Paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2410.12738 

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Dr. Uhall teaches political theory and the history of thought at Indiana University and works as an administrator in research and strategy at the University of Illinois. He's working on a book called "Theory of the Alien."

We discuss conceptual structures related to humans, nature, space and aliens, and explore the academic theory work necessary to prepare for potential contact with extraterrestrial intelligence.

Michael's First Book: https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781666922530/Noir-Materialism-Freedom-and-Obligation-in-Political-Ecology

Michael's Website: https://www.michaeluhall.com/ 

Bohlander on ET Contact: https://www.amazon.com/Contact-Extraterrestrial-Intelligence-Human-Applicability/dp/9004677690 

Wright on Deep Space Warfare: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Space-Warfare-Military-Strategy-ebook/dp/B0841RSDZR/ 

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This is a fun one. Krys and Ariel host The Elephant In the Room 411 Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@ElephantInTheRoom411 

We talk about how to discuss the UFO subject with family and friends, how to center experiencers in the cultural conversation, and how we rate the various possible explanations for the UFO phenomenon. 

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Gary Voorhis Jr. is a Co-Founder and President of UAPx, and a direct witness of the 2004 UAP encounters by the U.S.S. Nimitz carrier group leading up to the famous Tic Tac incident. 

We discuss Gary's experience in 2004 witnessing the strange radar and visual phenomena, and the instructions he received by the unidentified officers who came to confiscate the footage. 

We also cover his work with UAPx, a science organization seeking funding to produce and install sensor arrays to collect reliable UAP data. 

Gary mentions this forthcoming paper from UAPx on the results of their first field expedition: https://arxiv.org/abs/2312.00558 

For related work, check out our interview with Dr. Kevin Knuth and look out for our upcoming interview with Dr. Matthew Szydagis. 

And if you know how to write grants, and you want to help with UAP science, consider giving UAPx a call! 

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Robert Powell is a co-founder and Executive Board Member of the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies. He served as Director of Research at MUFON from 2007-2017 and created their Science Review Board. Robert holds a BS in Chemistry and co-holds four patents related to nanotechnology from his years managing Research and Development of semiconductors at AMD. 

 We discuss his excellent book "UFOs: A Scientist Explains What We Know (And Don't Know)," including what UAP science must do next, what might account for some of the extraordinary behavior of UAP, and how and whether we should attempt to communicate with potential NHI.  

Get Robert's book here: https://www.amazon.com/UFOs-Scientist-Explains-What-Know/dp/1538173581 

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Dr. Knuth is a Full Professor in the Department of Physics at the University at Albany (SUNY) and the Editor-in-Chief of the journal Entropy (MDPI). He holds various positions leading and consulting with almost every major UFO organization, including UAPX, SCU, SUAPS, The Sol Foundation, IFEX and The Galileo Project.  

Kevin worked for four years at NASA Ames Research Center in the Intelligent Systems Division designing artificial intelligence algorithms for astrophysical data analysis. He has over 20 years of experience in applying Bayesian and maximum entropy methods to the design of machine learning algorithms for data analysis applied to the physical sciences. His current research interests include the foundations of physics, quantum information, inference and inquiry, autonomous robotics, and the search for and characterization of extrasolar planets. He has published over 90 peer-reviewed publications and has been invited to give over 80 presentations in 14 countries. 

https://www.albany.edu/physics/faculty/kevin-knuth

We discuss his work on UFO science, including these two papers:

Estimating the Flight Characteristics of Anomalous Unidentified Aerial Vehicles
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7514271/

Simulating the characteristics of extra-terrestrial civilizations that encounter Earth 
https://knuthlab.org/papers/knuth---kavli-2024---galactic-colonization.pdf

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Rich Hoffman celebrated 60 years of UFO investigation in 2024. He's an IT consultant and strategist, and a defense contractor with Army Material Command. One of the first members of MUFON, he rose through the ranks to serve as Director of Investigations, Star Team Manager, Director of Strategic Projects, and State Director for multiple states. 

Rich founded the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies to connect scientists around the world and apply rigorous research methods to the investigation of UFOs and their properties. He's contributed directly to several deep-dive research papers about both particular UAP events and the broader patterns revealed in high-quality historical data. 

Rich tells us about his career, takes us on a detailed tour through the scientific work of SCU, and previews upcoming developments in the field. 

We hope you enjoy our show! If you do, please consider supporting us so we can get the word out about our work and the cool people we're talking to. 

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Dr. Brannon Wheeler teaches history of religion, Middle East, and the Bible at the United States Naval Academy in Annapolis. He's authored and edited several books on these topics, including Mecca and Eden: Ritual, Relics, and Territory in Islam (Chicago, 2016) and Animal Sacrifice and the Origins of Islam (Cambridge, 2022). Professor Wheeler received his PhD from the University of Chicago and has held visiting positions throughout the Middle East and Europe. 

We discuss the overlap between religious mythology and UFO experiences, the potential nature of communication with advanced psychic beings, and the path forward for academic engagement with the wide-ranging implications of UAP.

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Kevin Wright is a public relations and communications expert. He focuses on edge science issues and advises the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies’ (SCU) Board of Directors on public affairs and public relations and is a consultant to Daniel Sheehan’s New Paradigm Institute. Wright is also a weekly columnist for the Roswell Daily Record. 

Wright’s company Solve Advocacy helps clients navigate the complex and evolving landscape of public perception, media attention, and policy implications related to topics such as UAP, consciousness, and more.

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Birdie is amazing. She founded ABQ UFOs, which is one of the largest volunteer organizations of UFO enthusiasts, and she's among the most accomplished civilian remote viewers. We discuss her work and experience in both areas here, and look closely at the places where UFOs and remote viewing intersect.

You can follow Birdie online at her site No Rivets: https://www.norivets.com/

Engage with ABQ UFOs at their site: https://www.abqufos.com/

And check out Birdie's course with Ubiquity University here: https://www.ubiquityuniversity.org/developing-the-human-et-relationship-through-remote-viewing-with-birdie-jaworski/

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John and Gerry Tedesco are likely the world's most experienced civilian UAP trackers. They've logged hundreds of hours of data collection in their mobile lab Nightcrawler units with dozens of high-quality sensor instruments, including advanced radar equipment for which they acquired a special license.

We discuss their history as electrical engineers, their UAP observation work so far, their harrowing close encounter, and their plans for future projects.

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Jim Garrison directs the Washington DC operations of New Paradigm Institute. We discuss how disclosure will impact the rhythms of human history, how humans can start processing the presence of nonhuman intelligence, and how New Paradigm is preparing to help us communicate with our visitors.

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