267 avsnitt • Längd: 50 min • Månadsvis
Jen Lumanlan always thought infancy would be the hardest part of parenting. Now she has a toddler and finds a whole new set of tools are needed, there are hundreds of books to read, and academic research to uncover that would otherwise never see the light of day. Join her on her journey to get a Masters in Psychology focusing on Child Development, as she researches topics of interest to parents of toddlers and preschoolers from all angles, and suggests tools parents can use to help kids thrive – and make their own lives a bit easier in the process. Like Janet Lansbury’s respectful approach to parenting? Appreciate the value of scientific research, but don’t have time to read it all? Then you’ll love Your Parenting Mojo. More information and references for each show are at www.YourParentingMojo.com. Subscribe there and get a free newsletter compiling relevant research on the weeks I don’t publish a podcast episode!
The podcast Your Parenting Mojo – Respectful, research-based parenting ideas to help kids thrive is created by Jen Lumanlan. The podcast and the artwork on this page are embedded on this page using the public podcast feed (RSS).
129: The physical reasons you yell at your kids
This episode was...unplanned. :-) A couple of months ago I interviewed Dr. Louise Newson on the topic of menopause. Dr. Newson is a medical doctor and focused very heavily on Hormone Replacement Therapy as a treatment that everyone who menstruates should at least consider, and I knew I wanted to do an episode with someone who doesn't hold that belief as well.
I found Alexandra Pope and Sjanie Hugo Wurlitzer of The Red School, and really appreciated their book Wise Power. As I usually do before recording an interview I read their other co-authored book Wild Power, and I realized there was a 'missing' episode on the topic of Menstrual Cycle Awareness. We can't really talk about being aware of the changes that are happening to our bodies during menopause if we don't know what has happened to our bodies throughout our menstruating years.
When I read Wild Power I felt a deep sense of sadness that I was just discovering this now, as my own years of menstruation wind down - but also a deep sense of hope that I can help Carys develop a much closer relationship with her own body than I had with mine.
We'll answer questions like:
I'd encourage you to listen to this episode if:
In other words, everyone will get something out of this episode!
Wild power: Discover the magic of your menstrual cycle and awaken the feminine path to power
Wise power: Discover the liberating power of menopause to awaken authority, purpose and belonging
00:46 Introducing today’s topic and featured guests
03:39 Menstruation is the monthly process where the body sheds the lining of the uterus, and it also brings emotional, psychological, and even spiritual changes.
17:18 Menstrual cycle awareness is about understanding and respecting our natural rhythms, which can improve our well-being and productivity by honoring the need for rest and reflection in our lives.
31:20 Recognizing and respecting your menstrual cycle can improve your well-being by allowing you to adjust your activities and manage your energy more effectively.
40:10 The inner critic gets stronger during the pre-menstrual phase of the menstrual cycle. Knowing this can help you take better care of yourself and manage parenting challenges.
53:09 Menstrual cycle awareness can help with personal healing and self-care, even for those who face challenges like heavy periods or grief, by fostering connection with one's own body and experiences.
58:52 Wrapping up the discussion
Alfonseca, K., & Guilfoil, K. (2022, July 19). Should people of all genders be taught sex education together? Educators weigh in. ABC News. Retrieved from: https://abcnews.go.com/US/people-genders-taught-sex-education-educators-weigh/story?id=87021246
Andrews, S. (n.d.). Should schools separate sex ed classes by gender? NextGenMen. Retrieved from: https://www.nextgenmen.ca/blog/should-schools-separate-sex-ed-classes-by-gender
Engagement for Equitable Outcomes, by Allyson Criner Brown
Social Change Now: A Guide for Reflection and Connection, by Deepa Iyer
A few months ago my daughter had a routine checkup at the doctor, who asked how much screen time she gets in a day (which is more than typical recommendations but way less time than children spend sitting in school).
The doctor told her (but really she told me): “You should get more exercise.”
Carys isn’t a team sports kind of person. She doesn’t love hiking, and she only really likes biking when friends are with us.
Something about the ‘get more exercise’ advice didn’t sit quite right with me, but I couldn’t put my finger on why.
Then I found Katy Bowman’s work and suddenly it all made sense.
Katy points out that movement and exercise are not the same thing.
Even if we aren’t getting enough exercise, what we need far more than exercise is movement.
In this episode, we discuss questions like:
What children learn through movement
Our children learn through movement.
Yes, they learn how to move.
They also learn what our society thinks about movement, which is likely to set them up for a lifetime of not-moving, unless we support them in doing things differently.
Finally, they come to understand their bodies better when they move. They learn how their body signals ‘this feels great’ and ‘this doesn’t feel right.’ They learn to interact with physical things: Dr. Roger Kneebone (no joke!) at Imperial College London has observed that medical students have seemed less comfortable doing delicate tasks with their hands since smartphones became popular.
In other words, they learn to trust themselves.
We have a whole module on Full-Bodied Learning in the Learning Membership where we come to understand much more deeply what children learn with their bodies, and how to help them do it.
And that’s just one of the 12 topics you’ll cover in your first year, as you become an expert on topics like scaffolding your child’s learning, nurturing critical thinking, and supporting metacognitive learning.
If you’re thinking that you don’t have time to add one more thing to your plate, I can show you how to make it happen. Enrollment will open soon.
As usual, we have sliding scale pricing and a money back guarantee. It’s totally risk free to try it out. Click the banner to learn more.
Dynamic aging: Simple exercises for whole-body mobility
Grow wild: The whole-child, whole-family, nature-rich guide to moving more
Movement Matters: Essays on Movement Science, Movement Ecology, and the Nature of Movement
My perfect movement plan: The move your DNA all day workbook
The Move Your DNA Podcast Downloadable Permission to Move signs
00:54 Introducing today’s topic and featured guest
03:07 Movement is like food for our bodies, keeping them healthy, while exercise is a special type of movement that's planned to help us get stronger.
12:14 Kids learn best when they can move around, not just sit still like in school.
16:42 Incorporate movement into your daily routine by making walks a family event or turning everyday tasks into opportunities for activity.
34:50 Children sit because it's expected. To change this, create spaces that promote movement and actively support their natural activity.
41:17 Instead of focusing on "don'ts," use signs that show where movement is allowed, creating spaces that encourage physical activity and support movement.
42:19 Extracurricular activities should complement a child's overall movement diet, ensuring a mix of structured and unstructured play.
47:06 Outdoor movement aligns with our evolutionary needs, offering natural light and varied physical activities that indoor environments can’t provide.
51:59 If walking isn't possible, adapt with alternatives like biking or using a wheelchair to ensure some form of outdoor, human-powered movement.
53:31 When feeling tired, consider gentle, enjoyable movements like walking, dancing, or outdoor chores. Choose activities that you find meaningful, not just for calorie burning.
57:59 Three practices to try to incorporate more movement into your daily life.
Caspersen, C.J., Powell, K.E., & Christenson, G.M. (1985). Physical activity, exercise, and physical fitness: Definitions and distinctions for health-related research. Public Health Reports 100(2), 126.
Hidding, L.M., Altenburg, T.M., Van Ekris, E., & Chinapaw, M.J. (2017). Why do children engage in sedentary behavior? Child- and parent-perceived determinants. International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health 14(7), 671.
Hollander, K., Elsabe de Villiers, J., Sehner, S., Wegscheider, K., Braumann, K-M., Venter, R., & Zech, A. (2017). Growing up (habitually) barefoot influences the development of foot and arch morphology in children and adolescents. Scientific Reports 7, 8079.
Jayanthi, N.A., Post, E.G., Laury, T.C., & Fabricant, P.D. (2019). Health consequences of youth sport specialization. Journal of Athletic Training 54(10), 1040-1049.
Kafer, A. (2013). Feminist, queer, crip. Indianapolis: Indiana University Press.
Maitland, C., Stratton, G., Foster S., Braham, R., & Rosenberg, M. (2014). The dynamic family home: A qualitative exploration of physical environmental influences on children’s sedentary behavior and physical activity within the home space. International Journal of Behavioral Nutrition and Physical Activity 11, 1-12.
Scully, J.L. (2004). What is a disease? EMBO Reports 5(7), 650-653.
The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
Enrollment will open again soon. We have sliding scale pricing and a money back guarantee. It’s totally risk free to try it out. Click the banner to learn more!
052: Grit: The unique factor in your child’s success?
061: Can Growth Mindset live up to the hype?
165: How grit helps (and how it doesn’t)
Abdelnour, E., Jansen, M.O., & Gold, J.A. (2022). ADHD diagnostic trends: Increased recognition or overdiagnosis? Missouri Medicine 119(5), 467-473.
Dondi, M., Klier, J., Panier, F., & Schubert, J. (n.d.). Defining the skills citizens will need in the future world of work. McKinsey & Company. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/06/technology/tiktok-fake-teachers-pennsylvania.html?searchResultPosition=1
Interaction Institute for Social Change (2016, January 13). Illustrating equality vs. equity. Author. Retrieved from: https://interactioninstitute.org/illustrating-equality-vs-equity/
Kantor, J. (2014, August 13). Working anything but 9-5: Scheduling technology leaves low-income parents with hours of chaos. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/08/13/us/starbucks-workers-scheduling-hours.html
Paycor (2024, March 12). Predictive work schedule laws: A city-by-city guide. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.paycor.com/resource-center/articles/predictive-work-schedule-laws-a-city-by-city-guide/
Rajah, N., Bamiatzi, V., & Williams, N. (2021). How childhood ADHD-like symptoms predict selection into entrepreneurship and implications on entrepreneurial performance. Journal of Business Venturing 36(3), 106091.
Singer, N. (2024, July 6). Students target teachers in group TikTok attack, shaking their school. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/06/technology/tiktok-fake-teachers-pennsylvania.html
Slater, D. (2023, August 17). The Instagram account that shattered a California high school. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/17/magazine/california-high-school-racist-instagram.html
Skinner, E.B. (2023, April 26). The true cost of a $12 t-shirt. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/24/opinion/fast-fashion-apparel-worker-conditions-rana-plaza.html
TRT World (n.d.). The many times McKinsey has been embroiled in scandals. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/the-many-times-mckinsey-has-been-embroiled-in-scandals-43996
White, G.B. (2015, June 3). All your clothes are made with exploited labor. The Atlantic. Retrieved from: https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2015/06/patagonia-labor-clothing-factory-exploitation/394658/
Thanks to those of you who completed the recent survey on how I can serve you better, some changes are coming to the YPM world! While most respondents said they loved the length of the episodes because they appreciate how much detail we can get into in that time, a number of people said they had trouble finding the time to listen to longer episodes, as well as share them with others.Our long episodes aren’t going anywhere; I love being able to truly understand an issue and have deep conversations with experts.But I hear you that it can be hard to find an hour to listen!That’s why I’m going to start creating summary episodes. This first one summarizes the last two episodes on the topic of video games - both the conversation with @TheGamerEducator Ash Brandin, and my narrated episode on what children learn from video games.You’ll get my take-home ideas from both episodes in less than 12 minutes!If you’re starting to see the deep learning that children are doing while they’re playing video games and want to support them in having more of these kinds of experiences…but without using screens all the time, the Learning Membership will help you.The membership helps you to support your child’s intrinsic love of learning, while also equipping them with the skills they’ll need to succeed in the age of AI.
You’ll learn how to see and follow your child’s interests so you can support them in deep inquiries. You won’t have to drag them through it like you would a workbook or a curriculum (so no need to reward them with screen time!) because they will WANT to learn. They’ll be excited to do it, and they’ll bring you along for the ride.
If you already know you’re in, you can sign up for the Learning Membership right now.
All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee.Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!
01:26Introducing today’s episode02:06Balancing kids' screen time is a gradual process of sharing responsibility and making adjustments based on their abilities.03:35Children are drawn to video games because they meet needs for competence, autonomy, and relatedness.03:54There is no strong evidence that video games cause violence. 05:27Children can learn about cultural issues like misogyny and violence from video games and other media. 07:19Video games allow children to actively engage in learning by exploring unique systems and strategies, similar to real scientific thinking.08:41Children develop creativity and persistence through video games.09:18Invitation to the free You Are Your Child’s Best Teacher workshop
Last week, parent Nicole and I talked with @TheGamerEducator Ash Brandin about the challenges we can have when our kids love video games. [insert link to previous episode]
I had also hoped to ask Ash a lot of questions about what children learn from video games but we completely ran out of time, so I spent a fun day reading 10 books on the topic at the University of New Mexico library (non-students can’t check out books!).
I wanted to know a lot more about:
Do you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
Enrollment will open again soon. All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Click the banner to learn more!
00:45Introduction to today’s episode04:13Children are drawn to video games because they fulfill their needs for independence, skill-building, and connection. 13:00Children learn about gender roles and social behaviors from video games, which reflect societal misogyny and violence.28:55Video games foster active learning through problem-solving and experimentation. By connecting gaming identities to real-world learning, children can enhance their educational experiences.40:00Children learn best when they are engaged in activities they care about, and the You Are Your Child’s Best Teacher workshop will help parents recognize and support this learning.50:01Wrapping up
Benedetti, W. (2012, July 12). Anti-bigotry gaming site hacked, defaced by bigots. NBC News. Retrieved from: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/anti-bigotry-gaming-site-hacked-defaced-bigots-flna910262
Brown, H.J. (2008). Videogames and education. Armonk, NY: M.E. Sharpe.
Condis, M. (2018). Gaming masculinity: Trolls, fake geeks & the gendered battle for online culture. Iowa City: University of Iowa Press.
Gee, J.P. (2007). What video games have to teach us about learning and literacy. New York: Palgrave
Gee, J.P. (2007). Good video games + good learning: Collected essays on video games, learning and literacy. New York: Peter Lang
Gillin, L.E., & Signorella, M.L. (2023). Attitudes toward sexual orientation and gender identity in online multiplayer gaming spaces. Psychological Reports, 00332941231153798.
O’Leary, A. (2012, August 1). In virtual play, sex harassment is all too real. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/us/sexual-harassment-in-online-gaming-stirs-anger.html
Rigby, S., & Ryan, R.M. (2011). Glued to games: How video games draw us in and hold us spellbound. Santa Barbara: Praeger.
Richard, G.T. (2017). “Play it like a girl”: Gender expression, sexual identity, and complex expectations in a female-oriented gaming community. In B. Ruberg & A. Shaw (Eds.), Queer Game Studies (p.163-177). Minneapolis: University of Minnesota Press.
Schaffer, D., & Loparo, K.A. (2007). How computer games help children learn. Palgrave Macmillan.
Self-Determination Theory (2024). Theory. Author. Retrieved from: https://selfdeterminationtheory.org/theory/
Sliwinski, A. (2007, February 26). Gay gamer survey results with large hetero inclusion. Engadget. Retrieved from: https://www.engadget.com/2007-02-26-gay-gamer-survey-results-with-large-hetero-inclusion.html
Suellentrop, C. (2013, December 13). In the footsteps of Lara Croft. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/15/arts/video-games/chris-suellentrop-on-the-year-in-video-games.html
Yunkaporta, T. (2021). Sand talk: How indigenous thinking can save the world. New York: HarperCollins.
Video games can be tough.
Our kids enjoy them so much…but can’t tear their eyes away from them when time’s up without a meltdown.
Some games, like Fortnite and Roblox, can be really violent, and aren’t our kids learning bad messages when they play?
Plus even if they aren’t playing something violent, they aren’t really learning anything beneficial, right?
In this episode with @TheGamerEducator Ash Brandin and co-interviewer parent Nicole, we talk about common struggles parents have with kids who are playing games, including:
If summer is rolling on by and you’ve seen your kids do a lot of playing (whether that’s video games or not) and not a lot of activities that look like learning, I’d love to see you in the Learning Membership.
The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
Enrollment will open again soon. All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Click the banner to learn more!
01:50Introducing the topic and guests for this episode03:17Moderate video game use generally has neutral or positive effects, contrary to earlier studies linking it to aggression.07:02Many studies linking video games to aggression overlook confounding factors like socioeconomic status, trauma, and family dynamics.
10:27Research on violent video games shows mixed results, with any negative effects often being minor and context-specific. It's important to consider individual responses when assessing impact.
Boxer, P., Groves, C.L., & Docherty, M. (2015). Video games do indeed influence children and adolescents’ aggression, prosocial behavior, and academic performance: A clearer reading of Ferguson (2015). Perspectives on Psychological Science 10(5), 671-673.
Ferguson, C.J. (2008). The school shooting/violent video game link: Causal relationship or moral panic? Journal of Investigative Psychology and Offender Profiling 5, 25-37.
Ferguson, C.J. (2015). Do angry birds make for angry children? A meta-analysis of video game influences on children’s and adolescents’ aggression, mental health, prosocial behavior, and academic performance. Perspectives on Psychological Science 10(5), 646-666.
Ferguson, C.J., & Kilburn, J. (2010). Much ado about nothing: The misestimation and overinterpretation of violent video game effects in eastern and western nations: Comment on Anderson et al. (2010). Psychological Bulletin 136(2), 174-178.
He, F., Qi, Y., Zhou, Y., Cao, A., Yue, X., Fang, S., & Zheng, Y. (2023). Meta-analysis of the efficacy of digital therapies in children with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. Frontiers in Psychiatry 14, 1054831.
Johannes, N., Vuorre, M., & Przybylski, A.K. (2021). Video game play is positively correlated with well-being. Royal Society Open Science 8, 202049.
Kollins, S.H., Childress, A., Heusser, A.C., & Lutz, J. (2021). Effectiveness of a digital therapeutic as adjunct to treatment with medication in pediatric ADHD. NPJ Digital Medicine 4(1), 58.
Prensky, M. (2006). Don’t bother me, Mom – I’m learning!. St. Paul, MN: Paragon House.
Zendle, D., Flick, C., Gordon-Petrovskaya, E., Ballou, N., Ziao, L.Y., & Drachen, A. (2023). No evidence that Chinese playtime mandates reduced heavy gaming in one segment of the video games industry. Nature Human Behavior 7, 1753-1766.
How do I know if I'm perimenopausal?
A few months ago a member in the Parenting Membership shared a whole bunch of symptoms she'd had, from fatigue to rage to dry eyes. She'd been on a four year journey to figure out what was going on before finding out that she was in perimenopause, and wanted to save other members from the same experience she'd had.
That sparked a huge discussion in the community, with other members wondering whether the symptoms they were experiencing were also related to menopause - and whether this was going to be yet another thing they were going to have to educate their doctors about to get appropriate treatment.
In this episode we answer questions about:
In our next episode on this topic we'll look at a non-medical, holistic approach to menopause.
01:26 Introducing the topic and featured guest for this episode
03:48 Hormones play a crucial role in menstruation.
08:28 Dr. Newson explores the definitions and challenges of menopause and perimenopause, emphasizing the wide-ranging symptoms and long-term health implications associated with hormonal changes.
12:10 Dr. Newson discusses recognizing perimenopause symptoms amid busy lifestyles and the importance of early awareness, regardless of age variability in menopausal onset.
16:05 Dr. Newson explains how hormonal birth control can obscure natural hormone patterns, potentially leading to misunderstood symptoms like mood changes and reduced energy.
18:26 Women face challenges in receiving timely diagnosis and treatment for perimenopause and menopause symptoms, underscoring disparities in healthcare and the importance of seeking medical help despite societal barriers.
22:46 Hot flashes, often associated with menopause, are not the most prevalent or severe symptom. They result from brain disruptions and vary widely among individuals, with many experiencing cognitive and psychological symptoms instead.
27:28 Perimenopause and menopause often bring cognitive symptoms like memory lapses, tied to hormonal shifts that impact brain function, yet frequently disregarded in medical care and treatment.
33:41 Hormone replacement therapy has been found to be effective in managing menopausal symptoms and offering potential long-term health benefits, despite past concerns about risks associated with older synthetic hormone studies.
44:47 Hormone replacement therapy, especially with natural hormones, is often prescribed long-term for health benefits, contrasting with synthetic hormones implicated in higher risks from the WHI study.
47:43 Dr. Newson emphasizes that while non-hormonal treatments like antidepressants and therapies can alleviate symptoms, they don't address the underlying hormonal deficiency that hormone therapy effectively restores for overall health.
49:41 Jen and Dr. Newson discuss cultural views on menopause, emphasizing the need for accurate medical support over stereotypes or inadequate treatments like antidepressants.
57:21 Wrapping up the discussion
Attia, P. (2022, August 20). Menstruation, menopause, and hormone replacement therapy for women.
Carson, M.Y., & Thurson, R.C. (2023). Vasomotor symptoms and their links to cardiovascular disease risk. Current Opinion in Endocrine in Metabolic Research, 100448.
Cramer, D.W., Xu, H., & Harlow, B.L. (1995). Family history as a predictor of early menopause. Fertility and Sterility 64(4), 740-745.
Dominus, S. (2023, February 1). Women have been misled about menopause. The New York Times Magazine. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/01/magazine/menopause-hot-flashes-hormone-therapy.html
Gilberg-Lenz, S. (2022). Menopause bootcamp: Optimize your health, empower your self, and flourish as you age. New York: Harper Wave.
Herstasis (2024). Menopause symptoms. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.herstasis.com/symptoms/
Kolata, G., & Petersen, M. (2022, July 10). Hormone replacement study a shock to the medical system. The New York Times. Retrieved from: https://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/10/us/hormone-replacement-study-a-shock-to-the-medical-system.html#:~:text=A%20rigorous%20study%20found%20that,a%20decrease%20in%20colorectal%20cancer.
Lobo, R.A. (2013). Where are we 10 years after the Women’s Health Initiative? The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 98(5), 1771-1780.
Manson, J., Bassuk, S., Kaunitz, A., & Pinkerton, J. (2020). The Women’s Health Initiative trials of menopausal hormone therapy: Lessons learned. Menopause 27(8), 918-928.
Mosconi, L. (2024). The menopause brain: New science empowers women to navigate the pivotal transition with knowledge and confidence. Knox, ME: Center Point.
National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (2015, November 12). Menopause: Diagnosis and management. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng23/chapter/Recommendations
Newson, L., & Lewis, R. (2021). Delayed diagnosis and treatment of menopause is wasting NHS appointments and resources. Newson Health. Retrieved from: https://d2931px9t312xa.cloudfront.net/menopausedoctor/files/information/632/BMS%20poster%20Louise%20Newson%202021.pdf
O’Reilly, K., McDermid, F., McInnes, S., & Peters, K. (2022). An exploration of women’s knowledge and experience of perimenopause and menopause: An integrative literature review. Journal of Clinical Nursing 32: 4528-4540.
Stute, P., Marsden, J., Salih, N., & Cagnacci, A. (2023). Reappraising 21 years of the WHI study: Putting the findings in context for clinical practice. Maturitas 174, 8-13.
Discover insights on why no one will play with your child and explore effective strategies for building social skills in children
Does your child have big emotional blow-ups in social situations?
Are they a wallflower who doesn't know how to make friends?
Do they struggle to understand when it's appropriate to interrupt, tell the truth, and follow the rules vs. let things go.
I've been interested in neurodivergence for a while - I'm hoping to do an episode soon on parenting with ADHD, and in the course of research for that a parent in the Parenting Membership recommended the book Why Will No-One Play With Me.
The book is designed to help parents teach their children social skills - and I do think it has some useful ideas in it, but there are some pretty big caveats.
This episode takes a look at the broader set of research on teaching children social skills to ask whether we CAN do it and if we can, whether we SHOULD do it and if we should, what kinds of tools should we use? The popular Social Stories method? Role plays? Peer coaching?
This episode answers questions like:
00:52 Introducing the topic for this episode
02:59 Social skills programs show small, temporary effects and are more effective when led by experts, with mixed results for neurodivergent children.
09:38 Programs to teach social skills often try to change how neurodivergent kids act and they don't always work well.
24:01 Dr. Carol Gray's Social Stories ™ help children, especially those with autism, understand social situations without directly aiming to change their behavior.
28:59 Terra Vance's adaptations of Social Stories ™ highlight how they sometimes fail to address children's real experiences and emotions.
33:28 Research on parent-led interventions for children with ADHD and autism vary in effectiveness.
43:24 The book "Why Will No One Play With Me" doesn't provide specific references to support its ideas, making it unclear if they're based on research or opinion.
46:30 Teaching social skills includes managing emotions, understanding social norms, and practicing simulations for better responses.
50:49 The "Play Better Bridge to Betterment" model in Why Will No One Play With Me categorizes children's readiness for change into stages: pre-contemplation, contemplation, preparation, action, and maintenance. It emphasizes that children may need support to recognize and modify behaviors.
53:10 Caroline Maguire's approach in "Why Will No One Play With Me" mirrors problem-solving methods, yet it prioritizes a reward system over understanding children's underlying needs.
55:02 Maguire's method in "Why Will No One Play With Me" uses rewards to shape children's behavior, raising concerns about parental control and consent in interactions with their children.
56:46 Maguire's book concludes with exercises aimed at understanding social interactions and unspoken rules, but it raises concerns about imposing norms without considering individual needs and communication styles.
01:02:41 Maguire's book discusses challenges with school communication norms favoring concise storytelling, which often align with White communication styles.
01:06:11 Social skills training often overlooks children's consent and preferences, focusing instead on adult-determined goals, which may affect trust and authenticity in social interactions.
Autistically Alex (2019, April 1). Autism Speaks… Blog post. Author. Retrieved from: https://autisticallyalex.com/2019/04/01/autisticorganizations/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR10yNr3UglHOUWRGWJMfp_uMpyxpfAtXMw99wSyTgMg8BvBmFSoaPko7iE_aem_AU39ONZlb1_LzKuEMMXqgiicT3Vb-tICXVSQowCO3RsQvHAmymztsPxNO0P7mN8voYq6oFbq5Ji0aN19xc6ddW0Z
Beelmann, A., & Losel, F. (2021). A comprehensive meta-analysis of randomized evaluations of the effect of child social skills training on antisocial development. Journal of Developmental and Life-Course Criminology (7), 41-65.
Capodeci, A., Rivetti, T., & Cornoldi, C. (2019). A cooperative learning classroom intervention for increasing peer’s acceptance of children with ADHD. Journal of Attention Disorders 23(3), 282-292.
Chan, J., Lang, R., Rispoli, M., O’Reilly, M., Sigafoos, J., & Cole, H. (2009). Use of peer-mediated interventions in the treatment of autism spectrum disorders: A systematic review. Research in Autism Spectrum Disorders 3(4), 876-889.
de Mooij, B., Fekkes, M., Scholte, R.H.J., & Overbeek, G. (2020). Effective components of social skills training programs for children and adolescents in nonclinical samples: A multilevel meta-analysis. Clinecal Child and Family Psychology Review 23: 250-264.sorder. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders 42, 1895-1905.
Dekker, V., Nauta, M. H., Timmerman, M. E., Mulder, E. J., van der Veen-Mulders, L., van den Hoofdakker, B. J., ... & de Bildt, A. (2019). Social skills group training in children with autism spectrum disorder: a randomized controlled trial. European Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 28, 415-424.
Dogan, R.K., King, M.L., Fischetti, A.T., Lake, C.M., Mathews, T.L., & Warzak, W.J. (2017). Parent-implemented behavioral skills training of social skills. Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis 50, 805-818.
Find Yaser (2016, April 20). I am Autism commercial by Autism Speaks. Autism Speaks. Retrieved from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=9UgLnWJFGHQ
Haack, L.M., Villodas, M., McBurnett, K., Hinshaw, S., & Pfiffner, L.J. (2017). Parenting as a mechanism of change in psychosocial treatment for youth with ADHD, predominantly Inattentive presentation. Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 45(5), 841-855.
Kasari, C., Rotehram-Fuller, E. Locke, J., & Gulsrud, A. (2011). Making the connection: Randomized controlled trial of social skills at school for children with autism spectrum disorders. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry 53(4), 431-439.
Locke, J., Rotheram-Fuller, E., & Kasari, C. (2012). Exploring the social impact of being a typical peer model for included children with autism spectrum disorder. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders 42, 1985-1905.
Mathews, T.L., Erkfritz-Gay, K., Knight, J., Lancaster, B.M., & Kupzyk, K.A. (2013). The effects of social skills training on children with Autism Spectrum Disorders and Disruptive Behavior Disorders. Children’s Health Care 42: 311-332.
Meadan, H., Ostrosky, M.M., Zaghlawan, H.Y., & Yu, SY. (2009). Promoting the social and communicative behavior of young children with Autism Spectrum Disorders. Topics in Early Childhood Speical Education 29(2), 90-104.
Milne, C.M., Leaf, J.B., Cihon, J.H., Ferguson, J.L., McEachin, J., & Leaf, R. (2020). What is the proof now? An updated methodological review of research on social stories. Education and Training in Autism and Developmental Disabilities 55(3), 264-276.
Morris, S., Sheen, J., Ling, M., Foley, D., & Sciberras, E. (2021). Interventions for adolescents with ADHD to improve peer social functioning: A systematic review and meta-analysis. Journal of Attention Disorders 25(10), 1479-1496.
National Center for Education Statistics (2020). Race and ethnicity of public school teachers and their students. Author. Retrieved from: https://nces.ed.gov/pubs2020/2020103/index.asp
Newby, R.F., Discher, M., & Roman, M.A. (1991). Parent training for families of children with ADHD. School Psychology Review 20(2), 252-265.
Nordby, E.S., Guribye, F., Nordgreen, T., & Lundervold, A.J. (2023). Silver linings of ADHD: A thematic analysis of adults’ positive experiences with living with ADHD. BMN Open 13(10): e072052.
Pfiffner, L.J., Mikami, A.Y., Huang-Pollock, C., Easterlin, B., Zalecki, C., & McBurnett, K. (2007). A randomized, controlled trial of integrated home-school behavioral treatment for ADHD, predominantly Inattentive style. Journal of the American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry 46(8), 1041-1050.
Schramm, S.A., Hennig, T., & Linderkamp, F. (2016). Training problem solving and organizational skills in adolescents with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder: A randomized controlled trial. Journal of Cognitive Education and Psychology 15(3), 391-411.
Stewart, K.K., Carr, J.E., & LeBlanc, Linda A. (2007). Evaluation of family-implemented behavioral skills training for teaching social skills to a child with Asperger’s Disorder. Clinical Case Studies 6(3), 252-262.
Storebo, O.J., Gluud, C., Winkel, P., & Simonsen, E. (2012). Social-skills and parental training plus standard treatment versus standard treatment for children with ADHD – The randomized SOSTRA trial. PLoS One 7(6), e37280.
Storebø OJ, Elmose Andersen M, Skoog M, Joost Hansen S, Simonsen E, Pedersen N, Tendal B, Callesen HE, Faltinsen E, Gluud C. Social skills training for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in children aged 5 to 18 years. Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2019, Issue 6. Art. No.: CD008223
Vance, T. (2020, December 4). Social Stories for Autism and the harm they can cause. Blog post. Neuroclastic. Retrieved from: https://neuroclastic.com/social-stories-for-autism/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2CsSDrXGEGnKU-UOkDmGrziEFZZ0xRvDfQ9rIKYBzdk5tuZnq9lVCsXpM_aem_AU1ZF-3Kywuop5TXQbTRBIQD3UUBS7hGRY8Ik72rirtuw0ZLxIPGxMQyW4a3cXCRY5T9P5EZQxbzrlwwCvYOiJbp
Want to know how my autism self-diagnosis has affected my relationship with my husband? (I will apologize to autistic listeners here as an ableist perspective is still something we're working on, and he also uses some outdated terminology probably from an old book he's started twice - but not yet finished - on supporting partners with Asperger's Syndrome.)
Curious about whether he identifies as Filipino-American... or not? And how his perspective on race differs from mine?
Want to hear how he sent a chicken up into space...and then found out what the two pink lines of a pregnancy test mean?
Last year, when we were coming up on our 200th podcast episode, I asked my husband Alvin if he would be willing to record a podcast episode. I had envisioned listeners asking the questions and him answering - but he wanted me to join as well!
One of the first things we learned was that Alvin cannot be succinct. (Well, technically speaking, this was not a new lesson for me - and interviewer Iris had tried really hard to prepare him for succinctness by asking for his 'elevator pitch' - but he just couldn't do it!)
So we ended up cutting the episode when it was already over an hour and we hadn't covered half of the questions listeners had submitted...and interviewers Iris and Corrine graciously agreed to return for a Part 2. So here it is!
175: I’ll be me; can you be you?
200: Ask Alvin Anything (Part 1!)
01:22Introducing this episode04:28Alvin talks about how Jen's autism diagnosis helps their relationship while Jen shares how it helps in their daily life and parenting.12:47Alvin and Jen talk about how they decided to become parents. 25:10Alvin discusses his upbringing in a predominantly White area, his evolving awareness of his Filipino heritage, and how his wife Jen's advocacy work has shaped his understanding of race and culture.38:13Alvin talks about his journey from wanting to be seen as White to embracing his Filipino heritage and identifying as a Brown person.46:32Alvin encourages dads to be actively involved in parenting, prioritize their partners, and be present in family life. 57:15Alvin and the hosts engage in a quickfire round of questions, discussing topics from parenting to personal preferences. 01:00:50Wrapping up
Sometimes when listeners write to me, fun things happen! 🤪
Listener Diana replied to a recent email because she had listened to quite a lot of my episodes (although more of the earlier ones than the recent ones) and she was generally on board with my approach.
But she was having a hard time! Despite doing a lot of things for her children, and trying to remain calm and 'unruffled' and show that she loves them unconditionally, but as pretty often when she asked them to do something they sometimes scream at her for offering to help, they attempt to boss her around, and they're inflexible and rude.
So what's going on here?
Have we (finally) met children for whom my approach simply does not work?
Of course, as soon as I received Diana's email I wanted to talk with her. She gamely agreed to come on the podcast, although she did want to protect her privacy so there's no video for this episode.
We talked through the kinds of situations she often finds herself in, and some of the reasons why her daughter, in particular, might be acting this way. It turned out that in her indecision, Diana was drifting into permissive parenting, which meant that her children didn't know her needs - because Diana didn't know her own needs.
We identified quite a few practical things she could try to consider both her own and her children's needs, and there's also a message in the episode that Diana sent me a week after we talked, sharing how things were going.
Do you have a child aged 1 - 10? Are they resisting, ignoring you, and talking back at every request you make? Do you often feel frustrated, annoyed, and even angry with them? Are you desperate for their cooperation - but don't know how to get it? If your children are constantly testing limits, the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.
Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up now for the self-guided Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits for just $7. Click the banner to learn more.
Q&A#5: What really matters in parenting? Part 1
00:48 Introducing today’s guest and topic
08:58 Diana reflects on challenges with implementing a respectful parenting philosophy and navigating differences with her high-sensitivity, high-intensity child.
13:14 Diana shares parenting struggles, negotiating with her kids, and feeling disrespected in their interactions.
26:51 Diana reflects on supporting her daughter during dysregulated moments, while Jen illustrates the importance of context in understanding behavior.
31:12 They address Diana's daughter's need for predictability and resistance to sudden changes.
46:58 The dialogue emphasizes the importance of understanding and articulating individual needs to avoid permissive parenting while ensuring both the parent's and child's needs are met.
01:00:57 The conversation highlighted the importance of understanding underlying needs behind a child's behavior, leading to a shift in perspective for the parent.
01:06:00 Three actionable steps for listeners to implement the concepts discussed
It can be really hard to see what's happening in our struggles with our children. They refuse to go to bed at bedtime; we're at home alone all day with a baby who doesn't like being put down, and our older child who is now being aggressive, and there's no time for us to even take a shower, and maybe it seems like everyone around us is judging our parenting choices.
In this very different episode you're going to hear from parents who are in exactly these kinds of situations, and who joined me for a group coaching call to talk through them. We worked through a role play with one parent, Meagan, and then we saw how the same process could apply to lots of other different kinds of situations.
Several of the parents who joined the call were kind enough to record messages after the call letting me know how the experience was for them, and with their permission I've included these recordings in the episode as well.
So if you're struggling to find your groove as a parent; if you're struggling to find yourself, this episode will help.
If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out.
Click the banner to learn more and sign up. Enrollment now open until May 15th, 2024!
181: Why 'giving choices' doesn't work--and what to do instead
01:26Introducing today’s topic02:11Jen talks about hosting a group coaching call for Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group members, challenging misconceptions about coaching benefits.03:26Participants, like Parent Kendra, express feeling connected with others and finding solace in normalizing the challenges of parenting, even in a virtual setting. 07:38Participants shared their parenting challenges, including ADHD, tantrums, social expectations, and bedtime struggles, seeking guidance and support during the coaching call. 14:28The conversation explores Parent Meagan's bedtime struggles with her daughter Ava, highlighting Meagan's stress and Ava's desire for autonomy and connection. Strategies to address both needs are discussed.36:30The conversation explores Jen's struggle balancing caregiving, household tasks, and family time. It touches on her discomfort with her baby's crying, rooted in her own childhood experiences.46:58The conversation discusses supporting children with neurodivergent traits, emphasizing the challenges of maintaining routines and social interactions.56:37Parent Kendra shares her challenge navigating societal expectations in parenting across different cultures. 01:09:05Whitney shares how she applied the concept of understanding her son's perspective and needs during bedtime struggles. This shift in perspective helped her empathize more with her son's feelings and frustrations, 01:15:12Invitation to the Setting Loving (and Effective!) Limits workshop
When Carys was about three, I forced a dropper of antibiotics into her mouth to just get her to take it, so she would start to feel better. We were both tired and hangry and I didn't see another path forward, when she was refusing something that I knew would help her. What other choice did I have?
My husband did see another path when he arrived home later that evening, and before she went to bed she willingly took a full dose of the medicine.
These kinds of situations come up often in parenting: where we're trying to get our child to do something, perhaps even for their own health and safety, and they refuse. It can seem like the only path forward is to force them against their will - after all, we are doing this for their own good, right?
But what if there was another way to make these things happen that met your child's needs for autonomy over their own bodies, and also met your needs for peace and ease and harmony and protection of their health and safety?
That's what we'll work through in today's episode. We'll look closely at the way consent is perceived in our culture, and how these messages are transmitted - in school, in peer groups, in movies and songs, and in our families.
I'm also introducing a new element into podcast episodes to help you put the ideas in the episode into practice. At the end of the episode I offer three suggestions for things you could try in your relationship with your own child - organized into mild, medium, and spicy options so you can step in at the level that feels right to you.
Trigger warning: I do discuss sexual assault in this episode. It might not be one you listen to with your children around, and if you have experienced sexual assault, please make sure you're well resourced if you do choose to listen.
Are there times when your child doesn’t listen?
Do they stall, ignore you, refuse to do the things you ask…and then look you right in the eye while doing the thing you asked them NOT to do?
Do you feel disrespected when your child does these things – but have no idea what to do about it because the one thing you KNOW is that you don’t want to treat your child the same way your parents treated you?
If so, the FREE Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop will help. Click the banner to join the waitlist now:
00:54 Introducing today’s topic
05:24 Getting consent from babies through non-verbal cues
14:12 The existence of a rape culture that normalizes and trivializes sexual assault
16:55 Understanding consent beyond the typical script of cisgender heterosexual relationships
23:36 How distorted perceptions of feminism impact consent education
27:05 The importance of discussing consent beyond sexual situations
30:00 The lack of emphasis on consent in sex education standards and children's exposure to problematic portrayals of sex in media
41:19 The importance of teaching consent from childhood to counter rape culture rooted in patriarchal norms
45:49 Practical steps for parents to promote consent with their children
49:18 Listener Cori's experience underscores the importance of understanding a child's needs, promoting autonomy, and building consent-based relationships from an early age
56:02 The conclusion suggests three options for implementing the ideas discussed in the episode
Beres, M.A. (2021). From ignorance to knowledge: Sexual consent and queer stories. Feminism & Psychology 32(2), 137-155.
Global News (2018, May 11). Asking your child if you can change their diaper raises them to know their consent matters: Expert. Author. Retrieved from: https://globalnews.ca/video/4202379/asking-your-child-if-you-can-change-their-diaper-raises-them-to-know-their-consent-matters-expert
Gupta, D. [@Neo_url] (2018, February 18). If you’ve ever tried to put your finger up a straight guy’s ass during sex, you’ll know that they actually understand ongoing consent, withdrawal of consent and sexual boundaries very well. They act confused when it’s our bodies. [Tweet]. Retrieved from: https://www.reddit.com/r/TrollXChromosomes/comments/807c3m/for_the_guys_confused_about_consent/
Johnson, M., & Bennett, E. (2015, March). Everyday sexism: Australian women’s experiences of street harassment. The Australia Institute. Retrieved from: https://australiainstitute.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Everyday_sexism_TAIMarch2015_0.pdf
Kettrey, H.K., Davis, A.J., & Liberman, J. (2021). “Consent is F#@king Required”: Hashtag feminism surrounding sexual consent in a culture of postfeminist contradictions. Social Media + Society October-December, 1-11.
Loick, D. (2019). “…as if it were a thing.” A feminist critique of consent. Constellations, 1-11.
McGuire, L. (2021). Creating cultures of consent: A guide for parents and educators. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield.
Mukhopadhyay, S. (2023, Jan 26). Justin Bieber no more holds rights to his music, sold for $200 million: Here’s why it’s the latest trend. Mint. Retrieved from: https://www.livemint.com/news/world/justin-bieber-no-more-holds-rights-to-his-music-sold-for-200-million-here-s-why-it-s-the-latest-trend-11674695521055.html
National Institute of Justice (2008, September 30). Most victims know their attacker. Author. Retrieved from: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/most-victims-know-their-attacker
News.com.au (2019, May 11). Commentator mocked for saying parents should ask babies for consent to nappy change. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/kids/commentator-mocked-for-saying-parents-should-ask-babies-for-consent-to-nappy-change/news-story/6f3c45120ef9de5dee3df81621715c1b
Padilla-Walker, L.M., McLean, R.D., Ogles, B., & Pollard, B. (2020). How do parents teach “No means no”? An exploration of how sexual consent beliefs are socialized during adolescence. The Journal of Sex Research 57(9), 1122-1133.
Popova, M. (2019). Sexual consent. Boston: MIT.
RAINN (2023). Victims of sexual violence: Statistics. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence
Rutherford, A. (2018, September 17). What the origins of the ‘1 in 5’ statistic teaches us about sexual assault policy. Behavioral Scientist. Retrieved from: https://behavioralscientist.org/what-the-origins-of-the-1-in-5-statistic-teaches-us-about-sexual-assault-policy/#:~:text=Referring%20to%20the%20number%20of,prevent%2C%20and%20prosecute%20sexual%20assault.
Tarvis, C. (1989). Anger: The misunderstood emotion (Revised Ed.). Chicago: Touchstone.
Willis, M., Jozkowski, K.N., & Read, J. (2019). Sexual consent in K-12 sex education: An analysis of current health education standards in the United States. Sex Education 19(2), 226-236.
Listener Rachel also reached out with some questions, and due to my book tour schedule it took us a little longer to get a call on the calendar, but eventually - on a day in Seattle when I also had a coaching call and two two-hour workshops based on the book - we made it happen.
Rachel's questions go deeeep. She wanted to know:
Do you want to change the way you parent and make a positive impact on your family and the world?
Parenting Beyond Power is your key to unlocking this transformative path.
Embrace a fresh parenting approach, nurturing collaborative and harmonious connections with your children, all while contributing to a more inclusive and equitable world for all.
So don't hesitate – start transforming your parenting journey today, and grab your copy of Parenting Beyond Power now to get started! Click the banner to learn more.
Do you often find yourself caught in the whirlwind of your child's challenging behavior?
Are you seeking ways to foster calm and connection in your parenting journey, even during the most trying moments?
Look no further—Taming Your Triggers will help.
If you:
Then Taming Your Triggers is for you.
This workshop will empower you with the tools, insights, and support to navigate the ups and downs of parenting with confidence. It helps in all relationships - spouses and parents/in-laws too!
Join the waitlist to get notified when doors reopen.
01:20 Introducing today’s guest and topic
03:51 Rachel asks how the content of Parenting Beyond Power differs from that of the podcast
07:19 Rachel appreciates the comprehensiveness of the book and asks if there will be another on the topic of Taming Your Triggers.
07:56 Jen recommends a related book and emphasizes the value of community support for deep inner work in changing reactions to triggers.
08:46 Rachel asks whether power is inherently bad, specifically in the context of parents having power.
14:01 Jen warns against using parental power to control love and belonging through conditional rewards, leading to an unhealthy dynamic with children.
15:12 Rachel asks Jen about personal struggles applying podcast principles, questioning if difficulties persist despite knowing they're right.
19:32 Jen emphasizes recognizing resistance in both children and adults and discusses the trifecta of frustration, anger, and resentment as indicators of unmet needs for parents and children.
21:39 Jen discusses how she reconciles being research-based when acknowledging the biases in the research.
26:42 Rachel asks how Jen measures success.
28:18 They explore whether it's reasonable to ask parents, especially White parents, to challenge societal norms and emphasize the collective responsibility to confront and dismantle systems rooted in White supremacy.
32:28 The conversation mentions the overrepresentation of participants with one or two children, speculating on political leanings. Jen affirms her parenting approach's relevance for families with more children.
36:00 Jen talks about her hopes for readers and what she wants them to take away from the book.
39:33 Rachel acknowledges understanding the book's emphasis on building a better society through individual change.
40:23 Wrapping up the discussion
Do you worry about the state of the Earth? Climate change perhaps above all else, but also resource extraction, air pollution, and the injustice that goes along with the ways the impacts of these things are distributed?
You're not the only one.
I know not everyone goes this far, but one of the reasons I waited so long to have a baby, almost didn't have a baby, and will only have one child is to reduce my impact on climate change.
We all know we're supposed to fly less, drive less, and eat less meat. But how can those actions ever be enough, when (I read somewhere a long time ago) that there aren't enough resources on the planet for everyone to consume the resources that an unhoused person in the United States uses?
In her new book Parenting on Earth: A Philosopher's Guide to Doing Right by Your Kids - and Everyone Else's (affiliate link), Dr. Elizabeth Cripps walks us through the moral arguments involved in taking action on these issues - as well as the ones we use to justify not taking action.
I really enjoyed this book. There are so many ways it could have gone wrong. Dr. Cripps is a White European philosopher writing about ways we can reduce our environmental impact.
The book could have been dense (ever get lost trying to follow a philosophical argument? 🙋♀️)
It could have been preachy.
It could have been completely tone-deaf, and say that we all bear the same responsibility to make changes.
It doesn't do any of those things.
It's easy to understand, practical, and acknowledges Dr. Cripps' (and many of her readers,' including my own) place in society. This is our responsibility - but also not just our responsibility. We need systemic change at the State, national, and international levels as well.
This book helps you see what you can do by yourself, and also when you combine your efforts with others, which is a lot bigger than the sum of its parts. And that makes it an interesting, hopeful read. (I worked in sustainability consulting for a decade and I learned some things!)
Elizabeth Cripps' book:
Parenting on Earth: A Philosopher's Guide to Doing Right by Your Kids - and Everyone Else's (affiliate link)
01:20 Introduction to today’s episode and featured guest
02:39 Dr. Elizabeth Cripps gives a brief overview of what climate change is and how it is already affecting and will continue to affect us in the future
04:40 The moral aspect of climate change
06:39 The challenge of differentiating individual and governmental responsibilities regarding climate change
12:20 The connection between shame and topics like White supremacy, patriarchy, capitalism, and climate change
17:51 How broader societal concerns, like climate change, influence your everyday decision-making
26:10 Exploration on whether the Western-developed framework for climate change can be adapted to different cultures with varied moral perspectives
28:20 The choice of having children and how climate concerns influenced that decision
35:20 The concept of fairness and how children often have a strong sense of morality and fairness
37:18 A playful approach to life and problem-solving can inspire creativity for solving complex issues
38:54 How parents can engage in climate activism and justice alongside their everyday responsibilities
43:28 How parents might justify not taking action or not fully acknowledging climate change as a significant problem
45:20 Addressing climate change as a shared responsibility
48:12 Nurturing environmentally responsible children
51:42 Wrapping up discussion
Cripps, E. (2022). What climate justice means, and why we should care. London: Bloomsbury Continuum.
Cripps, E. (2017). Do parents have a special duty to mitigate climate change? Politics, Philosophy & Economics 16(3), 308-325.
Cripps, E. (2017). Justice, integrity, and moral community: Do parents owe it to their children to bring them up as good global climate citizens? Proceedings of the Aristotelian Society 117(1), 41-59.
Seebach, N. (2018). Is classroom boredom hidden guilt? A comparison between teaching Aboriginal history in Australia and Post-Holocaust history in Germany. NEQ: Emerging Scholars in Australian Indigenous Studies
Hunter Clarke-Fields is back with us again! She's the author of Raising Good Humans, and now the new book Raising Good Humans Every Day (affiliate links).
Why does the world need two books with such similar titles? Are they even different?!
Yes, they are! Raising Good Humans Every Day is small! And short! And the chapters are short! Each one contains just one practice, described in a few pages.
If you've got five minutes you can read a chapter and then put the idea into practice immediately.
Use it, see some success, and get inspired for the next one.
Short, simple, and sweet. Can't beat that!
Hunter Clarke-Fields' books:
Raising Good Humans Every Day (affiliate links)
00:43 Introducing Hunter Clarke-Fields
01:46 Hunter’s reasons for writing a second book with a title so much like their first one
03:29 Why controlling our children and have them control themselves doesn't work effectively
06:54 The need to shift from rewards and punishments to teaching and guiding children in understanding consequences and needs
09:18 The benefits of connection-based parenting
12:58 Reflecting on parenting experiences: gratitude and regrets
16:25 Exploring Hunter’s upbringing as a highly sensitive child
21:47 Navigating parenting a highly sensitive child with insights coming from Hunter’s own experiences
24:39 The importance of being authentic with children and openly sharing challenges as a parent
26:29 Parenting with heartfelt intention and presence
31:01 Embracing the importance of being present with children and practicing mindfulness in a fast-paced society
38:14 Asking for community support to be a better parent
42:24 Embracing a beginner's mind to counter judgment and remain open to possibilities
45:14 Wrapping up
141: The Body Keeps The Score with Dr. Bessel van der Kolk
175: I’ll be me; can you be you?
SYPM 014: The power of healing in community
104: How to help a child to overcome anxiety
132: How implicit bias affect my child (Part 2)Parenting Beyond Power is officially available today! Come join a mini-celebration with me in this podcast episode, and TODAY on Zoom at 11am Pacific/2pm Eastern/8pm Central Europe, and in-person this weekend if you're in the Bay Area!
Do you celebrate your achievements? I don't know about you, but I find it pretty difficult.
I didn't celebrate getting into Berkeley or Yale, or graduating from either of those places either (in fact, I think I was in the car driving away from each of those places when the graduation ceremonies happened).
I didn't celebrate getting U.S. citizenship, or have a baby shower, and Alvin and Carys buy or make me a birthday cake every year because they want to, but I don't really celebrate that either.
I didn't celebrate signing a book deal two years ago, and when we rolled over 3 million downloads recently I asked someone on my team to make a quick social post...and that was it.
So celebrating the book's launch feels...weird to me. But apparently people who write books do it, so I'm giving it a try - Jen style.
I invited a listener, María José (MJ) Durán, to ask me whatever questions she had about the book and the writing process for a mini-celebration.
(I did slip in a couple of questions for her as well, and I have to say that her response to me asking what she got out of the book was really meaningful for me - she now understands her own Mom in a way she hadn't been able to until now, which has brought María José (MJ) Durán some measure of relief.)
Come join one of our mini-celebrations! Listen to the podcast episode today!
00:43 Introduction to today’s episode
04:13 What sets Parenting Beyond Power apart for long-time podcast listeners and Parenting Membership members
05:01 What Jen wants to accomplish in writing Parenting Beyond Power
08:56 How the needs cupcake came about
11:38 How Jen came up with the book’s title
14:26 María José (MJ) Durán shares a positive change in setting boundaries with her daughter and questions why the same advice, given a year apart, yielded such different results
21:58 How the book addresses common parenting challenges
35:18 Jen’s perspective on neurodiversity in the context of the book's approach
41:01 The importance of addressing privilege and White supremacy in parenting
46:10 The feasibility of meeting everyone's needs in society
52:30 Wrapping up
One of the questions I'm asked most often about Parenting Beyond Power (preorder bonuses are available for just a few more days!) is:
So when a group of listeners volunteered to get together to discuss what they got out of the book, that was the first thing I wanted to ask them.
The core premise of the book is that the social forces of White supremacy, patriarchy, and capitalism have really hurt us - they're the biggest reason why we feel so much pain and shame. And we will pass on those hurts to our own children unless we do something different - and most of the book is about what we actually do differently to make parenting easier today, and work toward creating a world where everyone belongs.
Eliza began:
Kat added:
Elizabeth concluded:
We talked about the needs cupcake, and how we can use that to understand the needs that both we and our children are trying to meet on a regular basis. Eliza found that she's able to be more regulated by managing the level of sound around her - which she hadn't realized was a 'cherry' need for her until now!
Eliza coached Elizabeth through a struggle she's having with her daughter not wanting to go to bed, and Kat talked through a beautiful story of how she's supporting her children, who have been fighting with each other a LOT. Now they fight a lot less, because their needs are met more often. We're lucky that we heard Kat share that story before her phone battery died!
The wait is over! I'm thrilled to announce that Parenting Beyond Power is now available for you to explore.
Discover practical insights and fresh perspectives that can make a positive difference in your parenting journey.
Click the banner to get Parenting Beyond Power today:
00:43 Introduction to the podcast
02:04 Guests introduce themselves
05:00 Longtime participants discuss how the book differs from the podcast and other resources, emphasizing its unique value.
08:05 Participants share their the tools they learned from the book and any resulting parenting changes.
08:48 Elizabeth applies book tools like problem-solving conversations and the needs cupcake diagram, but grapples with addressing her daughter's need for community during bedtime routines.
11:46 Elisa and Elizabeth discuss adapting bedtime routines to balance tasks and the daughter's need for connection.
16:13 Jen offers suggestions for Elizabeth on meeting her child’s needs while setting her boundaries.
19:26 Kat shares her struggle with boundary-setting due to being a people-pleaser, aiming to create a boundary-respecting environment for her children.
21:17 Elisa finds the "needs cupcake" concept valuable in recognizing and addressing recurring needs for herself and her children.
27:14 Kat applies the "needs cupcake" concept to understand her children's primary needs, enabling her to address conflicts more effectively, encourage problem-solving discussions, and redirect behaviors towards meeting those needs.
38:58 They highlight the significance of acknowledging and addressing unique family needs, challenging gender norms in parenting, and prioritizing the fulfillment of needs for both children and parents to cultivate positive relationships.
43:08 Participants discuss their ongoing journey of personal growth and parenting transformation, highlighting the significance of self-compassion and aligning actions with values.
48:10 Elisa asks about potential content that wasn't included in the book, and Jen explains the challenge of balancing content while emphasizing the importance of practical tools.
50:48 Jen underscores the significance of consistent efforts based on personal values rather than perfection, emphasizing the uniqueness of every parent-child interaction.
53:15 Jen wraps up as she reflects on the question of whether parenting is easy.
Do you try to give your children messages about gender that are aligned with your values? Do you tell your daughter that she can do anything she wants to do, and look for shows that have equal representation of male- and female-presenting characters?
If so, you're off to a good start.
And...there's so much more to do.
One of the core ideas in my book, Parenting Beyond Power, is that we parents pass cultural messages on to our children. We do that through the books we read, the actions we praise, and the conversations we have (or don't have).
I don't censor the books I'm reading to Carys - we just talk about them. Right now we're reading Wild Born, Book 1 of the Spirit Animals collection. (I did check to make sure that the concept of 'spirit animals' isn't disrespectful to Indigenous people...it turns out it's a concept that White people made up, and it's only disrespectful if we try to link it to Indigenous practices.)
Here's an excerpt from the beginning of Chapter 3:
"Meilin sat on a cushion before her looking glass, meticulously applying facial paint. She didn't mind letting her handmaidens prepare her for festivals or banquets. But today was important. Today she wanted to look just right. And when you wanted something done right, you did it yourself.
After finishing the accents around her eyes, Meilin inspected her handiwork. It was a work of art atop a work of art. People always remarked that she was stunning. She had never needed paint on her face to earn compliments. But now she possessed an allure beyond her natural beauty."
It goes on to describe the strategic imperfection in her hair that made it "more appealing," and then she practices the looks she will display during her ceremony.
There's a lot going on here... It starts with the White supremacy-based idea that if you want something done right you can never rely on others but only do it yourself. (This book seems to be primarily about relationships, so I assume it's marketed to girls. And we wonder where women and mothers get the idea that they have to do it all themselves if we want it done right?) The book opened with a male character who obviously cared a lot about his clothes who waited impatiently while a servant connected forty eight clasps.
No male character's face is described in this level of detail. No male character puts paint on their face. No male character is introduced to the reader as an object to be looked upon with desire.
This is how cultural ideas are passed on.
This is how girls learn that being pretty has currency.
That it's a girl's job to create and use their appearance to manipulate others.
And if any boys happen to be reading, they learn that their job is to judge the performance.
These messages are harmful for all children, because they say that certain behaviors aren't acceptable in certain children - for no other reason than it doesn't match their genitals (of all things!).
What messages are your children learning about gender from the books you're reading to them, or that they're reading by themselves?
In this episode Virginia Mendez, author of Childhood Unlimited: Parenting Beyond the Gender Bias (affiliate link), helps us to see examples like this in books, films, toys, and even in the language we use around and toward our children.
Join me for this fun conversation with Virginia as we learn how to raise children who won't be constrained by their gender, and who can express their full selves.
Virginia Mendez's Book:
Childhood Unlimited: Parenting Beyond the Gender Bias (affiliate link)
The wait is over! I'm thrilled to announce that Parenting Beyond Power is now available for you to explore.
Discover practical insights and fresh perspectives that can make a positive difference in your parenting journey.
Click the banner to get Parenting Beyond Power today:
00:39Introduction of this episode’s topic and guest01:28Sex involves biological traits while gender is a diverse social identity that defies binary categorization.04:01Children's gender differences are largely influenced by societal norms and upbringing.09:11Pink's gender association shifted historically due to color symbolism, marketing, and cultural influences.10:42Despite some progress, children's media retains subtle gender biases and stereotypes.24:18Embracing non-binary identities, using inclusive pronouns, and challenging traditional gender categories can promote a more respectful and inclusive society.30:01Virginia Mendez's book highlights the societal constraints on children's potential due to gender stereotypes.43:15 Those new to the concept of non-binary identities should focus on cultivating awareness and curiosity about non-binary identities, while those already familiar can continue having open conversations with their children and encouraging exploration for an inclusive and understanding environment.46:59Embrace discomfort as a sign of personal growth and be open to adjusting to non-binary language and identities.
Do you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
Enrollment will open again soon. All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee.
Do you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!Do you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click here to learn more!Listener Kelsey posted in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook community a while ago asking how she should respond when her child asks: "Why does Daddy have to go to work?" She got some great answers from community members...and yet there was also a lot more to explore. I asked her to record her question so I could answer it in an episode, so here it is!
Of course, the issue of Daddy going to work has intersections with patriarchy as well...and many Your Parenting Mojo listeners of both/all genders work and probably hear this question from their children, so I adjusted the title of the episode a little.
The episode looks at capitalism and how it impacts our families and other peoples' families...and how we can start to have conversations about that with our children.
If you'd like to ask a question for me to answer in a future Q&A episode, please email a link to a video of you asking the question to [email protected], or go to yourparentingmojo.com/question and look for the Record A Question button.
00:58 Listener Kelsey asks how to honestly but age-appropriately answer the question, "Why does daddy have to go to work?"
02:54 Carys shares her ideas on capitalism and work
14:10 Kelsey's child isn't necessarily questioning why Daddy has to work, but rather why Daddy isn't available to play
17:51 The cultural devaluation of certain types of work, the influence of capitalism, housing discrimination, and societal expectations contribute to financial burdens
23:32 Every time we're making a choice to buy something, that is a choice to spend more time working
24:00 The mindset plays a significant role in finding joy and value in any job
25:16 Job satisfaction, financial security, and the role of money in addressing challenges and enhancing safety are crucial in deciding on work
27:26 Money doesn’t guarantee safety
30:11 Undervalued care work, predominantly performed by women, is crucial for the capitalist system.
31:47 Building communities that meet each other's needs can provide more choices and reduce reliance on financial resources.
32:59 We can talk to our children about capitalism, explaining that work allows us to meet our needs and wants, while addressing the inequalities and challenges that some people face.
35:14 Teaching children about capitalism and its objections fosters critical thinking about fairness, inequality, and alternative economic perspectives.
37:40 Teaching financial literacy to children should involve a critical examination of capitalist-focused programs
42:24 Wrapping up
We talk a lot about meeting needs on the show. And mostly we focus on meeting your child's needs, because when those are met then your needs for peace and ease and collaboration with your child get met as well.
But of course those are not your only needs. You also have needs independent of your relationship with your children, and you deserve to have these met. Mara Glatzel's new book focuses squarely on your needs. Why is it so hard to understand what our needs are? How can we figure out what our needs are...before they explode out of us in a meltdown? And how can we get these met on a regular basis?
This episode will show you how to do that.
Jump to highlights:
01:20 Introduction of the guest - Mara Glatzel
02:20 Mara shares the story at the beginning of her book where she tells her personal reflection when she felt learned the importance of asserting one's needs and the impact it has had on her life and relationship
06:13 Mara differentiates needs from wants
09:47 The societal pressure to maintain a perfect and productive facade may just lead to burnout and a denial of our own humanity
13:31 It is important to recognize and identify physical sensations, symptoms, and circumstances associated with burnout to prevent and reverse it
20:20 Setting boundaries with children allows parents to prioritize their own needs so they meet their children’s needs as well
24:49 Consistently pushing ourselves beyond our limits and striving for perfection sets us up for burnout
29:31 Prioritizing our own needs and well-being - even if it means doing things differently from others - is essential for sustainable productivity and a fulfilling life
34:37 It can be challenging to find the right balance between meeting our children's needs and taking care of our own, but by modeling self-care, setting boundaries, and teaching them how to communicate their needs effectively, we can find ways to support each other
41:36 Balancing our commitment to creating positive change with prioritizing our own well-being is crucial, as our ability to make an impact is compromised if we neglect self-care
47:34 If we're unable to deal with our own needs, we make our needs other people's problems - and this impacts our relationships
50:55 Mara shares about finding joy in trying new activities and embracing the freedom of being a beginner while following personal interests
54:46 Wrapping up
Mara's book:
Needy: How to advocate for your needs and claim your sovereignty (affiliate link)
A lot of parents (and teachers) are concerned right now about children's resilience. Will they 'bounce back' from the difficulties of the pandemic?
But is 'bouncing back' really the way we should be thinking about this? We have all been changed by the pandemic; shouldn't we acknowledge this and see how we can be the best versions of ourselves, incorporating what we've been through over the last few years, rather than trying to 'bounce back' into what we were before (which frankly wasn't all that amazing in a lot of cases, as we rushed from one thing to another with never any time for ourselves).
In this episode we also consider Black and Indigenous researchers' perspectives on resilience, and see how their ideas can perhaps shift how we perceive resilience - and thus how we support our children.
Other episodes referenced
069: Reducing the impact of intergenerational trauma
069: Reducing the impact of intergenerational trauma
140: Mythbusting about fat and BMI with Dr. Lindo Bacon
140: Mythbusting about fat and BMI with Dr. Lindo Bacon
137: Psychological flexibility through ACT with Diana Hill
137: Psychological flexibility through ACT with Diana Hill
148: Is spanking a child really so bad?
148: Is spanking a child really so bad?
098: Do school shooter trainings help (or hurt) children?
098: Do school shooter trainings help (or hurt) children?
114: How to stop 'othering' and instead build 'belonging'
114: How to stop 'othering' and instead build 'belonging'
074: Attachment: What it is, what it's not, how to do it, and how to stop stressing about it
074: Attachment: What it is, what it's not, how to do it, and how to stop stressing about it
106: Patriarchy is perpetuated through parenting
106: Patriarchy is perpetuated through parenting
Jump to highlights:01:10Introduction01:34Defining resilience from various perspectives03:16Resilience requires exposure to some kind of threat or severe adversity06:37What a lack of resilience looks like and how to measure its absence08:16Measuring resilience in research09:08The challenge of defining ‘protective’ factor10:00The history of research on resilience12:03The importance allowing children to cope with mild stressors14:40The Indigenous resilience17:17The control and dominance of indigenous peoples in Canada achieved through education and immersion in settler culture19:25 The importance of resilience culture in Indigenous communities21:02A model of resilience by Dr. Edith Grotberg 27:01Resilience determined by the dominant culture's expectations of normal, healthy, and good outcomes30:08The real purpose of resilience32:18What happens when a person isn't deemed to be resilient and why that is33:46Resilience as a code for social compliance38:59What true resilience should be about (based on the story about the Claremont Counseling Center's community building)40:53Wrapping up
References
Aranda, K., Zeeman, L., Scholes, J., & Morales, A. S-M. (2012). The resilient subject: Exploring subjectivity, identity and the body in narratives of resilience. Health 16(5), 548-563.
Block, P. (2008). Community: The structure of belonging. San Francisco: Berrett-Koehler.
Grotberg, E. (1995). A guide to promoting resilience in children: Strengthening the human spirit. Early Childhood Development: Practice and Reflections Number 8. Bernard van Leer Foundation.
Gutman, L.M. (2018). Risk and resilience. Reference Module in Neuroscience and Biobehavioral Psychology. https://doi.org/10.1016/B978-0-12-809324-5.21835-X
Henderson, J., & Denny, K. (2015). The resilient child, human development and the “postdemocracy.” BioSocieties 10(3), 352-378.
Hess, J. (2019). Moving beyond resilience education: Musical counterstorytelling. Music Education Research 1`(5), 488-502.
Kirmayer, L.J., Dandeneau, D., Marshall, E., Phillips, M.K., & Williamson, K.J. (2011). Rethinking resilience from an indigenous perspective. Canadian Journal of Psychiatry 56(2), 84-91.
Liu, J.J.W., Reed, M., & Girard, T.A. (2017). Advancing resilience: An integrative, multi-system mode of resilience. Personality and Individual Differences 111, 111-118.
Lopez, M., Ruiz, M.O., Rovnaghi, C.R., Tam, G.K-Y., Hiscox, J., Gotlib, I.H., Barr, D.A., Carrion, V.G., & Anand, K.J.S. (2021). The social ecology of childhood and early life adversity. Pediatric Research 89(2), 353-367.
Luthar, S.S., Cicchetti, D., & Becker, B. (2000). The construct of resilience: A critical evaluation and guidelines for future work. Child Development 71(3), 543-562.
Masten, A.S. (2001). Ordinary Magic: Resilience processes in development. American Psychologist 56(3), 227-238.
Masten, A.S.. (2021). Resilience in developmental systems: Principles, pathways, and protective processes in research and practice. In Ungar, M. (Ed.), Multisystemic resilience: Adaptation and transformation in contexts of change (p. 113-134). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
Masten, A.S., and Barnes, A.J. (2018). Resilience in children: Developmental perspectives. Children 5, 98.
McCalman, J., & Bainbridge, R. (2021). Indigenous education, well-being, and resilience – a systemic approach. In Ungar, M. (Ed.), Multisystemic resilience: Adaptation and transformation in contexts of change (p. 199-219). Oxford: Oxford University Press.
McGuire, P.D. (2010). Exploring resilience and indigenous ways of knowing. Pimatisiwin: A Journal of Aboriginal and Indigenous Community Health 8(2), 117-131.
Rutter, M. (2012). Resilience as a dynamic concept. Development and Psychopathology 24, 335-344.
Thomas, D., Mitchell, T., & Arseneau, C. (2015). Re-evaluating resilience: From individual vulnerabilities to the strength of cultures and collectivities among indigenous communities. Resilience 4(2), 116-129.
Traub, F., & Boynton-Jarrett, R. (2017). Modifiable resilience factors to childhood adversity for clinical pediatric practice. Pediatrics 139(5), e20162569
Solkoski, S.M., & Bullock, L.M. (2012). Resilience in children and youth: A review. Children and Youth Services Review 34, 2295-2303.
Wexler, L. (2013). Looking across three generations of Alaska Natives to explore how culture fosters indigenous resilience. Transcultural Psychiatry 51(1), 73-92.
Do you have a child aged 1 - 10? Are they resisting, ignoring you, and talking back at every request you make? Do you often feel frustrated, annoyed, and even angry with them? Are you desperate for their cooperation - but don't know how to get it? If your children are constantly testing limits, the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you. Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up now for the self-guided Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits for just $7. Click the banner to learn more.
(00:54)Many parenting coaches recommend giving children choices as a way to get them to cooperate. (02:43)The effectiveness of using choices to our children(05:47)Reasons why giving choices makes us lose the possibility of meeting both of our needs(08:01)How using choices motivates children to do the things they wouldn’t want to do(09:00)Why choices teach children consequences(09:40)Benefits of using true empathy(10:26)Giving choices to negotiate how children will do a chore/task(11:55)The use of rewards to motivate children fails to consider both the child’s and parent’s needs, leading to resentment and missed opportunity for making real choices(13:28)Giving choices as a win-win situation(14:05)The choices parents give often do not meet the child’s needs(17:08)Distinguishing between needs and strategies(19:01)The importance of meeting both our and our children’s needs(20:34)Ben shares his struggles before joining the Setting Limits workshop(22:55)Ben shares how effective the tools he learned in the Setting Limits workshop(26:29)Deon shares her experience after joining the Setting Limits workshop(27:01) An open invitation to join the Setting Loving (&Effective!) Limits workshop
086: Playing to Win: How does playing sports impact children?170: How to stop procrastinating with Dr. Fuschia Sirois. 075: Should we go ahead and heap rewards on our kid?
If there’s one topic that never fails to rile parents up, it’s sibling fighting.Why does it affect us so much? (There are two main reasons.)Why is this happening, and what can we do about it? There are two main reasons, and one strategy to use with each reason. That’s it!There are NOT an infinite number of reasons why this is happening, or an infinite number of things to try to get it to stop.This episode will help you to identify the cause of the fighting, and how to make it stop.Sound too good to be true? It isn’t. Check out what parents have said about the workshop and sign up:
Do you have a child aged 1 - 10? Are they resisting, ignoring you, and talking back at every request you make? Do you often feel frustrated, annoyed, and even angry with them? Are you desperate for their cooperation - but don't know how to get it? If your children are constantly testing limits, the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up now for the self-guided Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits for just $7. Click the banner to learn more.
(02:07)Challenges of having multiple children(03:39)How parents' reactions to their children's fighting can be influenced by their own past experiences with their siblings. (07:00)The need to make pause before reacting to a child’s behavior(07:52)Understanding the causes of siblings fight(08:34)A fictitious story about a sibling fight to show two possible scenarios that may result from two opposing reactions from a parent(10:40)Scenario 1: Parent explodes and blames one child as aggressor during sibling fight(12:10)Scenario 2: Parent makes a pause, remains calm, does not blame anyone(15:00)Importance of having an empathetic discussion with your children(20:45) The struggles of Adrianna and Tim began when a new child was added to the family.(24:46)How Parenting Membership help Adrianna and Tim(25:54)Adrianna shares how bodhi shows his empathy towards her sister(27:35)How adding a sibling rocks an older child’s world(28:42)What are some ways to support our older child in managing challenging emotions so that they continue to feel valued and loved by us.(31:24)Sibling fight as a child’s unskillful strategy to getting their needs met(33:55)Figuring out the commonly unmet needs of our children (35:05)The answer to a child’s unmet needs: Spend 1:1 time with them(36:25)The importance of letting the child direct your ‘special time’(37:48)Why parents shouldn’t treat all their children in the same way(39:16) Adrianna’s reflections [accordion][accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"]Kelly Peterson 00:03Hi, this is Kelly Peterson from Chicago, Illinois. There's no other resource out there quite like Your Parenting Mojo, which doesn't just tell you about the latest scientific research on parenting and child development, but puts it into context for you as well so you can decide whether and how to use this new information. If you'd like to get new episodes in your inbox along with a free infographic on 13 Reasons Your Child Isn't Listening to You and what to do about each one, sign up at YourParentingMojo.com/subscribe. If you'd like to start a conversation with someone about this episode, or you know someone who would find it useful, please do forward it to them. Thank you so much.Jen Lumanlan 00:55Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Your kids never fight, right? I didn’t think so. Of all the challenges that parents come to me with, sibling fighting is one of the biggest, and it seems like no matter what they’ve tried, it never gets better. A lot of these parents tell me they’re able to stay calm as their children start poking at each other, either verbally or physically, and even when tensions are escalating, and then eventually something explodes and they can’t keep it together any more and they scream at their kids to just stop it. And if their children WOULD just stop doing this, then of course our lives would be so much easier! So can they just stop?!Jen Lumanlan 01:34I’m going to address the elephant in the room right up front and say that I’m a parent of one child, so I don’t have a problem with sibling rivalry. I’ve never wanted to have more than one child because I’m selfish and I like the life I have with one child, and because I know I’m a better parent to one child than I could be to more than one. And Carys has actually never wanted a sibling – we actually ask her, for fun, on a regular basis, just to see what she says, and she always says ‘no’ or buries her face in a pile of pillows or in some other way indicates that it would be a terrible idea.Jen Lumanlan 02:07But I have worked with a LOT of parents who have multiple children, and who have used the ideas I’m going to share here in this episode and have found RELIEF from the seemingly endless sibling fighting. So I’ll walk you through how I worked with one family where the parents started out by saying: “My kids are always fighting and doing things to intentionally make the other one sad or scared. It’s really stressful and triggering for me. I can’t leave them together for 5 seconds because one of them will hurt the other one physically or emotionally. We might have the same exact two toys and they each have one, and then the other will just go rip it out of the other person’s hand and throw it across the room. And then it will end up getting physical. I’m having a hard time even going to the bathroom some days because I never know what’s going to happen when they’re together. Sometimes they can play together really well for a long time but then sometimes things go south immediately.” And just a few weeks after saying that, this parent’s still very young children were able to start addressing many of the challenges they were having between themselves, without the parent even having to be involved at all. So in this episode we’re going to talk through the factors that are involved in sibling fighting, which almost always go way deeper than whatever it is they are fighting about right now. There are two main buckets of factors – things that are going on inside us, and things that are happening for our children. It’s always easiest to focus on yourself first so let’s start there, and then we’ll move into what to do with your children.Jen Lumanlan 03:39So starting with ourselves, we need to understand why we are having such a big reaction to our children’s fighting. And pretty often that happens for one of two reasons. The first of these is that we had a crummy relationship with our siblings. So maybe you were the oldest and you had to look out for the younger ones and they got to be kids and to push back and not be the responsible one, and you didn’t get to do that. You were the enforcer, you had to keep them in line because your parents were working or had mental health challenges or other things going on that meant they couldn’t fully parent their children. So you have a strained relationship with your siblings because of that. Or maybe you weren’t the eldest or the biggest and your older and bigger sibling used to beat up on you. That would have been a really difficult experience for you – you were probably afraid of your sibling, and tried to manage their feelings so that you wouldn’t set them off, and to a greater or lesser extent you lived under the threat of what this older and bigger person would do to you. So when your children fight with each other, even if it’s objectively a very little disagreement, you have a narrative in your head about how if you don’t stop this now, they’re going to end up in the same dynamic that you did, with the bigger stronger one beating up on the smaller ‘weaker’ one, and the smaller one is going to get hurt, perhaps one time and perhaps many times in the future.Jen Lumanlan 04:59The important thing to recognize in this is that your children’s relationship is NOT the same as the relationship you had with your sibling. It REMINDS you of the relationship with your sibling because you have a heightened awareness of tension. All of your antennas are up and your radar is constantly scanning for any threat, and as soon as you see something that looks remotely like what happened between you and your sibling, your brain goes into that catastrophizing mode where you expect the worst. But that isn’t our children’s thing to navigate. That’s our thing to navigate. We need to address the hurt that we’ve experienced, perhaps through therapy, so their probably relatively small squabbles don’t turn into a massive thing for us. Not doing this healing work is always an option, but we may well find that you’re able to be around your children with more ease and calm if we do work on this. And even if we think we can keep a lid on it now, we may well find that the kinds of struggles they have in the future escalate and trigger us then, so figuring out how to cope with it better now could really stand us in good stead.Jen Lumanlan 06:01So the other half of the stuff related to you is when you and your sibling or siblings had a great relationship. When you see your own children fighting, you again catastrophize and think, “Well, if they’re fighting like this now, how are they ever going to have the amazingly close relationship that I have with my siblings?” And we panic and think that this is a thing that needs to be fixed URGENTLY. Once again, this is our thing to navigate rather than theirs. Just because they are squabbling now doesn’t mean they won’t be amazingly close later. And conversely, if they AREN’T squabbling now, that doesn’t mean they will be amazingly close later. We can never know how our own relationship with someone else will turn out, never mind how the relationship between two other people is going to turn out. We think that if we can prevent them from fighting now we’ll be doing everything we can to make sure they get on with each other later, but we have no way of knowing this. All we can do is be here with what’s here now today.Jen Lumanlan 07:00So whichever of these things is true for you, the best thing you can do is to create a pause between your child’s behavior and your reaction. You can use a lot of different tools to create that pause – parents I work with like to keep a hair tie on one wrist to remind them of their intention to be present with their children’s struggle, and before they do or say anything in these difficult moments they transfer the hair tie to the other wrist. You can write down phrases that are meaningful to you – things like “My relationship with my children is the most important thing,” and post them on sticky notes around your house so you can look at them when you need them. Creating that pause is a big part of what we do in the Taming Your Triggers workshop, but that doesn’t mean there’s nothing else you can do. Another part of what you can do is to look at why your children are fighting in the first place and address THAT, and then you won’t find yourself in these difficult situations nearly as often. So that’s the second part of our episode here today.Jen Lumanlan 07:52When I ask parents why their children fight, they often say: “It just comes out of nowhere,” or “It happens for any one of 300 reasons – one of them has something the other one wants, or one of them is building something and the other one knocks it over, or one of them finds something the other one does to be really irritating.”Jen Lumanlan 08:10Once again, we can deal with these very different causes in different ways. The important thing to keep in mind is that when our children are doing this behavior we find it so difficult, it’s always always always an attempt to meet an unmet need. Our job is to be a needs detective to try to uncover the unmet need so we can help them to meet that need, and then they won’t fight as much any more.Jen Lumanlan 08:34The main thing we’re looking out for here is whether the difficulties are happening in one or a few kinds of situations over and over again, or whether they’re happening seemingly all the time across multiple types of situations. Let’s start with the individual one off situations first, and I’m going to introduce children’s genders into a fictitious story just to make it easier to follow. This example is actually taken from my book, which now has a title! It’s called Parenting Beyond Power and is available for pre-order now, before it’s released on August 1!Jen Lumanlan 09:04Let’s say your four year old son is building a really tall block tower in the living room while you’re in another room nearby, and your two-year-old daughter comes running in and all of a sudden you hear a big crash as the blocks hit the floor, and then your two-year-old screams which usually means the four-year-old has hit her. What do you do? Just take a moment to put yourself in that situation, or a similar situation you’ve had with your child, and imagine what you might do, and what you would say to your child.Jen Lumanlan 09:39Okay, so let's give this a whirl. Let’s try and imagine together how this conversation might go. So maybe you come running into the living room and say: “Hey! Stop it! Don’t smack your sister like that! We do not hit!” Your son refuses to look at you, so you console little sister and say something like “There there; it’s OK; it’s not your fault,” and to your son you say: “What on earth were you thinking?” Your son still avoids looking at you and says: “She knocked my tower over.”Jen Lumanlan 10:08And you had just about been able to keep a lid on your feelings up to this point but then it explodes and you say: “I don’t care! You can build another one! I know it’s hard to have something knocked down, but that’s no excuse. Don’t hit your sister! Go and sit in the corner for three minutes and when you come back, you’d better be ready to apologize to her.” Jen Lumanlan 10:26Your son goes and sits in the corner and when he comes back he says something that sounds vaguely like ‘sorry.’ So it seems like the interaction is over, and that the child has learned a lesson but what has really happened here? Let’s walk this through step by step.Jen Lumanlan 10:40So the parent came in and judged one child as the aggressor and the other the victim. The parent asked a rhetorical question about what the older child was thinking but they aren’t really asking to get an answer. The child is feeling unsafe in that moment and completely disconnected from their parent, so they’re not going to say anything about how they’re really feeling. These rhetorical questions are actually quite shame-inducing – you may be able to remember times when your own parents asked you these kinds of questions and how disconnecting it was to be on the receiving end. You might have known that you had to respond, but that would never be with anything that actually revealed anything about yourself. Then the parent created even more separation by sending the child to time out. And this can seem like a reasonable option – after all, the child has to be punished in some way for hitting, right? Otherwise they’ll think that hitting is acceptable and they’ll keep doing it. The parent picks a Time Out as the least harmful punishment they can think of, and forces the child to apologize at the end, and superficially the situation is ‘fixed.’ But under the surface it’s anything but fixed. We’ve either created or, more likely, widened, a rift between us and our child, and the child is probably feeling both angry and resentful toward their sibling – and toward their parent as well. But what else are we supposed to do? Doesn’t any alternative mean that we’re letting our child get away with behavior that we think is clearly unacceptable? Well no, it doesn’t. Let’s see how this interaction might go differently.Jen Lumanlan 12:10So the situation is the same: your son is in the living room building a block tower; you’re close by, but not in the same room, you hear your daughter come running into the living room and the crash as the blocks hit the floor followed by the scream. What do you do? Firstly, you use some of the tools we talked about in the first part of this episode and create a pause between your child’s behavior and your response. So unless you think someone is in very grave danger at this point, rather than rushing into the situation, pause. Transfer your hair tie from one wrist to the other. Look at your sticky notes. Take a deep breath. Remind yourself of your intention and of what’s most important to you, and also that you don’t have to completely fix this situation right now. You don’t have to teach your son a lesson in this moment; all you have to do is make sure everyone is safe.Jen Lumanlan 12:59So as you go into the room you’re looking for anyone who is hitting anyone else, or any other kind of danger, and separating children if that’s the case. If anyone is hurt then of course you can comfort them, but try to do it in a way that doesn’t put any blame on anyone for what happened. You don’t actually need to say anything in that moment. You can just be with them with a calm presence, which hopefully IS actually a calm presence, because you haven’t been stuffing your feelings down; you’ve taken those few moments before you came into the room to re-regulate yourself. If you do want to say something, it could be something as simple as: “Sounds like you’re both having a hard time right now, huh?” or if you became dysregulated as well, you could say: “We’re all having a hard time right now, huh?”. Then just sit with your children, with no need to do anything or fix anything or get anyone to learn any lesson in that moment. Just be present with them. If they want to talk about it you can engage, but if they don’t, that’s fine too. Maybe they’ll pick up their play again or you might suggest that one child comes and does something with you.Jen Lumanlan 14:04Then, later, you could go to the older child and say something like: “Hey, I noticed we’ve been having a hard time when your toys are out in the living room. Would it be OK if we chat about it?” Notice the difference between this opening and the opening in the first version of this scenario. The parent is coming in without blaming anyone and saying “WE’RE having a hard time,” not “you’re doing something wrong and you need to change your behavior. The parent is also inviting the child into a discussion, and is willing to not have the discussion right now if the child doesn’t want to. And you may be thinking “well, then my child just says they don’t want to talk about it and they get away with this unacceptable behavior!”, and my response would be that you can’t force them to have a conversation with you. You can force them to listen while you talk, but you can’t force them to really share what’s going on...
This Q&A episode comes from a special education preschool teacher had listened to the Why We Shouldn’t Read The Your X-Year-Old Child books anymore, and wondered:
My first thought was: There’s no way I’m touching that question, because I don’t have the relevant qualifications and I’ll get torn apart.I’ve been in some groups for Autistic parents for several months now, and one thing that’s abundantly clear is that qualified professionals use ‘treatments’ for Autistic children that these now-grown up people describe as abuse (and believe me; I don’t use that word lightly. It’s a direct quote from many different people).So if the qualified professionals are using methods that the people who have experienced them call abusive, I think I have a responsibility to at least offer thoughts for parents to consider as they’re navigating the process of diagnosis and treatment.Too often, parents are pushed to take their child directly from diagnosis to treatment, as if we’re missing some critical window of opportunity. But what if no treatment was sometimes the best option?I don’t consider this episode to be The Final Word on What Parents Should Do. It’s more of a conversation starter…a way to raise some ideas that parents might not hear from the doctors who are pushing them toward treatment as fast as possible.
Do you have a child aged 1 - 10? Are they resisting, ignoring you, and talking back at every request you make? Do you often feel frustrated, annoyed, and even angry with them? Are you desperate for their cooperation - but don't know how to get it? If your children are constantly testing limits, the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.
Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up now for the self-guided Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits for just $7. Click the banner to learn more.
(02:20) Parent Jessie’s question about her child(03:13) Listener Teacher’s question about intervention and therapy among children with Autism(05:42) The purpose why Autism support groups exist (06:25) The negative impacts of Applied Behavior Analysis (ABA) Therapy to children with Autism(07:32) The rush to get a child into therapy(08:33) The Medical Model of therapy(09:27) Therapy and Capitalism(10:01) Consider joining communities for support before getting into therapy(12:09) First point to consider before getting a child into therapy: We are all neurologically different(13:05) Second point to consider before getting a child into therapy: The aim of therapy (16:38) Third point to consider before getting a child into therapy: The benefit of therapy to the child(20:24) The need for a child’s active (verbal/nonverbal) consent to therapy(24:44) The impact of family environment on a child in therapy(26:56) Finding the appropriate therapy for very young children
Most of the resources related to parenting and neurodiversity are geared toward helping neurodivergent children, not neurodivergent parents, so this episode aims to help close that gap.
Whether you (or your partner, if you have one) have a diagnosis or you see yourself (or them) struggling but can't quite figure out why, this episode may help. Autism and ADHD are diagnosed at wildly differing rates in girls and boys (in large part because boys' symptoms often turn outward while girls' symptoms turn inward), which means that girls are very often undiagnosed and unsupported well into adulthood.
Dr. A. may help you to identify neurodivergence in yourself or your partner, and then connect you to resources to support you on your journey.
Find more about Dr. A's practice at SpectrumServicesNYC.com
I also very much appreciated Dr. A's memoir The Rose Hotel (affiliate link) about her experiences in Iran during the revolution, and later in the U.K. and the U.S.
Jump to highlights(00:03) Introduction to this episode.(03:07) What kind of patterns do you see in couples where one partner is known to be neurodivergent?(07:28) It’s often the female-identifying partner who is the one who identifies the issue.(11:46) What are some of the red flags for neurodivergent partners?(16:05) Men tend to flood four times as fast as their female partners when they are in an argument.(21:43) How do I support my partner in being a successful parent and also find more balance in terms of what they bring to the family?(25:38) What do we do with this knowledge that we have?(30:31) Dealing with conflict between the couple.(32:46) What do you think of the idea of trauma as a factor in ADHD?(36:12) Diagnosis of ADHD is multi-directional –.(41:56) Mental health is still stigmatized and getting a diagnosis could backfire on you.(42:31) What is a diagnosis and how does it help?(47:44) The different types of ADHD.(53:03) Social calendaring and extracurricular activities.(54:46) Time blocking is a better approach for ADHD.(01:01:45) Strengths of people with ADHD.References
Blair, R.J.R. (2005). Responding to the emotions of others: Dissociating forms of empathy through the study of typical and psychiatric populations. Consciousness and Cognition 14(4), 698-718.
Bostock-Ling, J.S. (2017, December). Life satisfaction of neurotypical women in intimate relationships with a partner who has Asperger’s Syndrome: An exploratory study. Unpublished Master’s thesis: The University of Sydney.
Chronis-Tuscano, A., & Stein, M.A. (2012). Pharmapsychotherapy for parents with Attention-Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD): Impact on maternal ADHD and parenting. CNS Drugs 26(9), 725-732.
Chronis-Tuscano, A., O’Brien, K.A., Johnston, C., Jones, H.A., Clarke, T.L., Raggi, V.L., Rooney, M.E., Diaz, Y., Pian, J., & Seymour, K.E. (2011). The relation between maternal ADHD symptoms & improvement in child behavior following brief behavioral parent training is mediated by change in negative parenting. Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 39, 1047-1057.
Conway, F., Oster, M., & Szymanski, K. (2011). ADHD and complex trauma: A descriptive study of hospitalized children in an urban psychiatric hospital. Journal of Infant, Child, and Adolescent Psychotherapy 10, 60-72.
Dziobek, I., Rogers, K., Fleck, S., Bahnemann, M., Heekeren, H.R., Wolf, O.T., & Convit, A. (2007). Dissociation of cognitive and emotional empathy in adults with Asperger Syndrome using the mUltifaceted Empathy Test (MET). Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders 38, 464-473.
Ford, J.D., Thomas, J., Racusin, R., Daviss, W.B., Ellis, C.G., Rogers, K., Reiser, J., Schiffman, J., & Sengupta, A. (1999). Trauma exposure among children with Oppositional Defiant Disorder and Attention Deicit-Hyperactivity Disorder. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology 67(5), 786-789.
Hull, L., Petrides, K.V., & Mandy, W. (2020). The female autism phenotype and camouflaging: A narrative review. Review Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders 7, 306-317.
Lilley, R., Lawson, W., Hall, G., Mahony, J., Clapham, H., Heyworth, M., Arnold, S., Trollor, J., Yudell, M., & Pellicano, E. (2022). “Peas in a pod”: Oral history reflections on autistic identity in family and community by late-diagnosed adults. Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, 1-16.
Mazursky-Horowitz, H., Thomas, S.R., Woods, K.E., Chrabaszcz, J.D., Deater-Deckard, K., & Chronis-Tuscano, A. (2018). Maternal executive functioning and scaffolding families of children with and without parent-reported ADHD. Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 46(3), 463-475.
Mazursky-Horowitz, H., Felton, J.W., MacPherson, L., Ehrlich, K.B., Cassidy, J., Lejuez, C.W., & Chronis-Tuscano, A. (2014). Maternal emotion regulation mediates the association between adult Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder symptoms and parenting. Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 43(1), 121-131.
McGough, J.J., Smalley, S.L., McCracken, J.T., Yang, M., Del’Homme, M., Lynn, D.E., & Loo, S. (2005). Psychiatric comorbidity in adult attention deficit hyperactivity disorder: Findings from multiplex families. American Journal of Psychiatry 162, 1621-1627.
Moser, D.A., Aue, T., Suardi, F., Manini, A., Rossignol, A.S., Cordero, M.I., Merminod, G., Ansermet, F., Serpa, S.R., Fabez, N., & Schechter, D.S. (2015). The relation of general socio-emotional processing to parenting specific behavior: A study of mothers with and without posttraumatic stress disorder. Frontiers in Psychology 6:1575.
National Library of Medicine (n.d.). 14. Prevalence of Autism Spectrum Disorder. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK332896/
Park, J.L., Hudec, K.L., Johnston, C. (2017). Parental ADHD symptoms and parenting behaviors: A meta-analysis. Clinical Psychology Review 56, 25-39.
Pearlstein, T., & Steiner, M. (2012). Premenstral Dysphoric Disrorder: Burden of illness and treatment update. The Journal of Lifelong Learning in Psychiatry X(1), 90-101.
Psychogiou, L., Daley, D., Thompson, M.J., & Sonuga-Barke, E.J.S. (2008). Do maternal attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder symptoms exacerbate or ameliorate the negative effect of child attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder symptoms on parenting? Development and Psychopathology 20, 121-137.
Reinhold, J.A. (2015). Adult ADHD: A review of the clinical presentation, challenges, and treatment options. Psychiatric Times 32(10), 41.
World Health Organization (2022, March 30). Autism. Author. Retrieved from: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/autism-spectrum-disorders#:~:text=It%20is%20estimated%20that%20worldwide,figures%20that%20are%20substantially%20higher
Have you ever seen recommendations for the books called Your One Year Old, Your Two Year Old, and so on, by Louise Bates Ames? Every few weeks I see parents posting in online communities asking about some aspect of their child’s behavior that is confusing or annoying to them, and somebody responds: “You should read the Louise Bates Ames books!”
This usually comes with the caveat that the reader will have to disregard all the 'outdated gender stuff,' but that the information on child development is still highly relevant.
In this episode I dig deep into the research on which these books are based. While the books were mostly published in the 1980s, they're based on research done in the 1930s to 1950s.
I argue that far from just 'stripping out the outdated gender stuff,' we need to look much deeper at the cultural context that the information in these books fits within - because it turns out that not only were the researchers not measuring 'normal,' 'average' child development, but that they were training children to respond to situations in a certain way, based on ideas about a person's role in society that may not fit with our views at all. And if this is the case, why should we use these books as a guide to our children's development?
Other episodes
Parenting Beyond Pink and Blue
Jump to highlights
(02:41) An open invitation to check out the new book that will be released in August 2023.
(04:59) Why these child psych books from the 1980s are all over parenting Facebook groups today
(06:01) The Gesell philosophy of human behavior
(08:48) Who is Louise Bates
(10:32) Who is Arnold Gesell
(11:28) How the children were selected to participate in the experiment
(14:28) How our view of childhood had undergone a massive shift in the previous 100 years
(16:09) What’s it like to have a child involved in the study
(19:35) Some of the significant milestones provided by researchers
(20:50) Dr. Gesell is looking to study the natural development of children’s physical capabilities
(22:07) What normal seems to mean in the study
(23:11) Gesell fails to observe what the baby’s hands are actually doing
(24:18) The purpose of the ‘performance box’
(27:44) I add my own judgment of the research
(28:32) Gesell wrote that what he called ‘systematic cinematography’
(29:22) Another way that the situation was anything but natural was that the study took place within a dome
(30:59) Dr. Gesell observed the effect of the running commentary on him in the experimenter role
(31:54) Dr. Gesell makes contradictory statements about whether the behavior he observed in the lab was the same as the behavior the child displayed at home
(32:58) A baby’s behavior changes based on the environment it is in
(35:04) What the researchers say about children’s capabilities outside of the lab
(35:56) Even the view of maturation itself is inextricably linked to Euro-centric ideas about time, on both micro and macro scales.
(40:51) What are parents supposed to do with all this information
(45:19) One of the Dr. Bates Ames’ key ideas is that development doesn’t proceed in a linear fashion
(47:52) The similarity between reading the development book and reading a horoscope
(52:33) The idea that things aren’t linear in our children’s development is super helpful
(52:54) I found the most useful description of why this non-linear behavior happens in a book of essays by Dr. Myrtle McGraw
(54:14) Going back to the outdated ideas about gender
(57:11) The flow of authority
(01:00:55) When we use our power to get children to do what we want them to do we’re still promoting the values of a patriarchal culture
(01:02:58) The most common word uttered is ‘mine’
(01:05:04) Each of the decisions parents make is made in a cultural context
(01:07:36) An episode suggestion to listen to
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Emma 00:03
Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives, but we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released, and get a free infographic on the 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you and what to do about each one, just head on over to yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe. And pretty soon, you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro. So come and record one yourself at yourparentingmojo.com/recordtheintro.
Jen Lumanlan 00:51
Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Have you ever seen recommendations for the books called Your One Year Old, Your Two Year Old, and so on, by Dr. Louise Bates Ames? Every few weeks I see parents posting in online communities asking about some aspect of their child’s behavior that is confusing or annoying to them, and somebody responds: “You should read the Louise Bates Ames books!” They are really short; just about 150 pages each, and were written in the 1970s and ‘80s, and seem to describe a ‘normal’ child’s behavior at each age. The idea of the books, as Dr. Bates Ames and her co-authors state, is that the parent will be able to see their child’s behavior described in the book and be able to relax because the child really is ‘normal.’
Jen Lumanlan 01:36
I first heard about these books when Carys was about two, and I have to say I found them somewhat helpful and reassuring at the time, even though I would read them and think: “no, Carys doesn’t do that…or that…but she does do that – OK; I guess everything is fine.”
Jen Lumanlan 01:50
Whenever someone suggests reading these books, they always come with a caveat that you have to disregard the outdated information on topics like gender roles, and that didn’t quite sit right with me but for a while I couldn’t put my finger on why. Then more recently parent educator Robin Einzig posted in her group with a link to a Slate article that recommends these books, and suddenly I realized what I was struggling with. I do want to say that this is not a take-down of Robin Einzig; I GREATLY respect her work, because she’s one of the few people out there who works with parents who truly sees and treats children with respect. I almost wrote this episode without mentioning her but it would have been really hard to explain how my own understanding shifted without talking about her post, and even if I’d anonymized it I know we have enough folks who follow both of our work that it would most likely have gotten back to her. Overall it seemed more honest to just acknowledge the whole story, so that’s what I’m doing.
Jen Lumanlan 02:41
In a minute I’ll tell you about the whole process but before I do that, I just want to say that the reason these ideas are now much clearer for me than they were even a year ago is because I’ve spent the last year writing a book at the intersection of parenting and social justice. Many of the books on this topic that have been written recently take the perspective that to create a society where everyone belongs, we should talk with our children about the kinds of systems that make that not the case today like White supremacy and racism, patriarchy, and capitalism. I agree that yes, we absolutely MUST do those things…and that also if those are the only things we’re doing, we’re missing something really important. Our ideas aren’t just transmitted to our children through the conversations we have with them but also through the ways we interact with them about things like mealtime and bedtime and what we do when we’re feeling frustrated. If we’re using our power over our children to manage those situations then we’re still perpetuating the very same ideas that we’re telling our children are bad. The book will be released in August 2023, and I’m starting to think about ways to get the word out about it. I’ve created a new page on my website at yourparentingmojo.com/book, so you can go there to find out more information. There’s only a bit about the book there now, but there is also a form where you can let me know that you’d like to be notified when the book is released, and if you’d like to know if I come and do a reading in a town near you, and maybe even offer to help bring me to your town to do a reading or a workshop related to the ideas in the book. So, you can do that at yourparentingmojo.com/book, and we’ll also update that page when we have more information available about where I’ll be and when after the book is released.
Jen Lumanlan 04:20
So, the event that caused me to think about these books again was when Robin posted in her group: “I just came across this wonderful article about the persistent value of the [occasionally outdated, "old" in the world of publishing] series by Louise Bates Ames and the Gesell Institute of Child Development entitled "Your One Year Old", "Your Two Year Old" and so on.
I recommend these books left and right, almost every day, both online and in personal consultations. Get them. Read them. Read excerpts of them online. Disregard the outdated stuff--you can do this, you can overlook stuff that doesn't apply anymore and focus on the information about child development, which is top-notch. There is really nothing else like them out there, and there is so much in them that is of great value.”
Jen Lumanlan 04:59
She then posted a link to an article in Slate from 2021 called “Why these child psych books from the 1980s are all over parenting Facebook groups today,” which mentions some of the stuff we’re going to go into in more detail in this episode – the idea that a 4 ½ year-old can be trusted to play outdoors without much supervision, which implies that the family lives in a safe neighborhood, and probably has a fenced yard as well that the parent can look into. We’ll look at the weird gender stuff more closely as well, where girls are shy, boys are exuberant, and the stay-at-home mother is always the book’s reader. The article concludes that “one things these books offer that does transcend time is a feeling of parental solidarity – and that, alone, is valuable.” And to the extent that parents see themselves and their families reflected in these books I imagine it is. But what I realized as I read Robin’s post is that you really CAN’T disregard the outdated stuff and focus on the information on child development. Dr. Bates Ames opens her 1979 book The Gesell Institute’s Child from One to Six with this paragraph: “The Gesell philosophy of human behavior maintains, and has always maintained, that behavior is a function of structure. This means that to a large extent we behave as we do because of the way we are built, and because of the stage of development we have reached.” This is the guiding principle of the Your X-Year-Old books. She goes on to say that “Age norms are not set up as standards; they are designed only for orientation and interpretive purposes. It is a gross misinterpretation of our normative work for anyone to assume that we are staying that all children do or should develop in exactly the same way or at the same rate.”
Jen Lumanlan 06:38
I quote that section to make it clear what I’m NOT debating. I’m not trying to argue that Dr. Bates Ames and her colleagues ARE saying that all children develop all at the same rate. But what I AM arguing is firstly, that children’s development is shaped much more by their environment than Dr. Bates Ames acknowledges. I’m not going to get into the nature-nurture debate here because I don’t think it’s helpful; I agree with them that we exist within the boundaries of what we’re physically and mentally capable of, but we are still impacted by our environment in ways they don’t seem to recognize that we’ll talk more about in a few minutes.
Jen Lumanlan 07:12
And secondly, I believe that what we know, or think we know is also highly shaped by our environment. That means that the way Dr. Bates Ames and also Dr. Gesell, who she worked with a lot, ask their research questions and set up their studies is NOT value-neutral, as they seem to think it is; it is very much shaped by our culture, which means their ideas about what they think children can do is also shaped by our culture.
Jen Lumanlan 07:38
So, to understand this better, I did what I do, and I got 20 books out of the University of California Library written by Dr. Bates Ames and her colleagues, because if there’s one thing that library does well it’s books published in the 1930s. I wanted to look more into the research that is behind the books in the Your X Year Old Child series so I could see what are the ideas about children’s development and about society that underpins them.
Jen Lumanlan 08:01
So in this episode we’re going to start by learning a bit about the two main players in this field. Dr. Louise Bates Ames, and Dr. Arnold Gesell. We’ll look at the ways they studied babies and young children, and how the children they chose to study and the methods they used to study them affected their views on how children develop. We’ll do this somewhat chronologically, starting with Dr. Gesell’s work in the 1920s, their work together in the 1930s-1940s, and then Dr. Bates Ames work with others at the Gesell Institute through the 1970s. By the end of the episode, we’ll have an understanding of whether the ideas in the Your X-Year-Old books fit with the kinds of relationships we want to have with children, and thus whether we should continue to rely on them.
Jen Lumanlan 08:42
Alright, let’s start by finding out about the two main actors in the drama that’s going to unfold in this episode. Louise Bates was born in 1908 in Portland, Maine. Her father was a lawyer and judge, and her mother a schoolteacher. She attended public school in Portland, and then Wheaton College in Massachusetts. Apparently, she disliked the elitist atmosphere of the all-female school and transferred to the University of Maine to receive her B.A. in psychology. She decided to pursue a career in psychology because it would allow more flexibility for family life, and the same year she graduated she married fellow student Smith Ames, although they would divorce in 1937. She received her M.A. from the University of Maine in 1933. She earned her Ph.D. in experimental psychology from Yale University in 1936, and her dissertation was on the sequence of creeping and crawling behavior in human infants. While working on her Ph.D., Bates joined the Yale Clinic of Child Development and worked there from 1933 until it was closed in 1948, acting as the clinic’s secretary and personal research assistant to the director, Dr. Arnold Gesell. They published a lot of books and papers together, and it was these books – as well as books that Gesell wrote alone – that I reviewed to understand the basis for the Your X-Year Old books. In a book published in 1972, Dr. Ames says that in 1950, she and others founded the Gesell Institute of Child Development Inc. That “Inc” implies that the institute is actually a company, although it is now known as Gesell at Yale. The Your X-Year-Old books leave off the “inc,” and the current website gives information on Dr. Gesell’s original research, but nothing about the early days of the institute.
Jen Lumanlan 10:23
We also need to know more about Arnold Gesell, since Dr. Bates Ames was intimately involved in his work and carried forward his legacy after he died. Gesell was born in Wisconsin in 1880 and received his doctorate at Clark University in Massachusetts in 1906. In 1911 he went to New Haven, Connecticut to head the Yale Psycho-Clinic, which was later called the Clinic of Child Development. He knew he would need medical training to understand child development so he obtained an M.D. from Yale in 1915. He initially studied abnormalities in childhood and then realized that he couldn’t really do that until he better understood “normal” infant growth and development. His first book appeared in 1912, but he really hit his stride between 1930 and 1960, when a multitude of books described the method he’d developed of using the new technology of video to observe young children’s behavior, many of which he co-authored with Dr. Bates Ames. Unfortunately for me, at least, these books are extraordinarily repetitive, describing the set-up of the experiments and their results over and over again.
Jen Lumanlan 11:28
The first thing I want to look at in the research is how the children were selected to participate. Gesell wanted to understand “normal” children’s development, and he said that to do that “the norm may be derived from a random sample or from a homogenous group.” He apparently rejected the random sampling method because he wanted to work with a small sample size, and he said that: “by carefully selecting a homogenous group rather than a random sample of the population, the normative character of the data was greatly strengthened and the central trends of development were accentuated. A relative homogeneity of environment, racial inheritance, and physical status was secured by including only those infants whose parents were of the middle socio-economic status with respect to occupation, schooling, avocational interests, and home equipment; whose parents were born in this country; whose grandparents were of northern European extraction, and whose gestation term, birth history, and physical status were within specified limits.”
Jen Lumanlan 12:34
To Gesell’s credit, he didn’t use the lazy sampling method that many other psychologists of his era did where they just studied the children in the nursery attached to their institution, which was mostly filled with the children of highly privileged graduate students, and then extrapolated that data to the entire population. The fathers in Gesell’s study had job titles like butcher, electrician, factory operator, mechanic, printer, and ticket seller. “Unemployed” was not an available category. There’s a large table describing the nationality of the mother’s and father’s parents; there are four...
Our culture says that people procrastinate because they're disorganized and lazy. After all, how hard can it really be to do a task you've committed to doing, and one that you even know will benefit you?!
But I learned through this episode that procrastination isn't about disorganization or laziness at all - it's much more about managing how we feel about tasks - and we can learn how to do this more effectively.
Those of us who don't struggle with procrastination can also do quite a bit to support the folks who do, to make it easier for them to get stuck in and be successful at the task.
Learn more about navigating your own procrastination and supporting your child in doing this as they get old enough for it to become relevant to them in this episode.
Fuschia Sirois Book:Procrastination: What it is, why it's a problem, and what you can do about it. (Affiliate link)
Jump to highlights
(02:04) Definition of Procrastination
(03:19) The 2 kinds of Procrastination and the difference between the two
(04:07) How common is procrastination?
(08:03) The interconnections between Procrastination and people's health
(11:04) How can Procrastination be linked to stress?
(18:01) Bedtime Procrastination and its implication to people's health
(21:25) Link then between people's emotional states and procrastination
(25:42) The connections between perfectionism and procrastination
(29:45) What is active procrastination and is it a good thing?
(33:20) Interaction between procrastination and shame
(40:42) What can we do to manage our emotions and take on tasks that are important and valuable to us
(42:34) How can forgiveness and self-compassion affect Procrastination
(45:36) What is a paper doll diagram?
(48:48) Can children procrastinate and at what age does procrastination start to show up?
(50:42) Healthy ways of managing negative emotions
[accordion]
[accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"]
Emma 00:00
Hi. I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK. We all want our children to lead fulfilled lives. But we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast is still scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released, then get a free infographic on the 13 Reasons Your Child Isn't Listening To You and what to do about each one. Just head on over to yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe, and pretty soon you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro. So come and record one yourself at yourparentingmojo.com/recordtheintro.
Jen Lumanlan 00:45
Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast and today we're going to address a challenge that I know a lot of listeners struggle with and that is procrastination. Whether you're a chronic procrastinator yourself or you're worried about raising a child who procrastinate or potentially both will help you to understand why you procrastinate and offer some concrete tools for how you can navigate tasks that are important to you more successfully. My guest for this conversation is Dr. Fuschia Sirois - Professor in the Department of Psychology at Durham University in England. For more than 20 years, she's researched the causes and consequences of procrastination as well as how emotions play a role in it. Her research also examines the role of positive psychology traits, states and interventions for supporting self regulation and enhancing well being and health. Welcome Dr. Sirois. It’s great to have you here.
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 01:30
Thanks, Jen. Thanks very much for inviting me to be on.
Jen Lumanlan 01:33
I was trying to think of a way of phrasing this that doesn't sound really bad. There are a lot of things I struggle with in life. I am not a perfect person by any stretch of the imagination, lots of things I'm not good at. Procrastination by large is not among them. So I read your book about a month before our scheduled interview. And I prepared the questions about two weeks before and I don't know why but I've just never seen the need to wait to get tasks done. But I know a lot of people do. Can we start with a definition of what procrastination is and then maybe understand how common it is?
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 02:04
Yeah, of course, that's a really good place to start. Because a lot of people think they might procrastinate. And actually what they're doing is a form of delay. And procrastination is a particular type of delay. And it's a type of delay that involves self regulation, difficulties or difficulty managing, you know, your thoughts, your emotions and your behaviors towards reaching your goals. That sort of what we package is self regulation. Specifically, procrastination involves unnecessary delay, voluntary delay, something you chose to do something that's not that is not necessary, there's not an emergency pulling you away from that task that you had to do by and it's a task that you intended to do. So you said, I'm going to do this, it's not something somebody forced you into, right? You said, Yeah, I agreed, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this on. And so you engage in this type of delay, unnecessary, voluntary and candid task. And something that holds some importance, it's not a, you know, a really minor, something, we all put off those little things, but that wouldn't necessarily technically be called procrastination. And we do all this despite knowing that there's going to be harm for ourselves or others. So there's going to be negative consequences. And that really speaks to the irrationality of procrastination and why it can be such a problem.
Jen Lumanlan 03:10
Okay, and there's a couple different kinds, right? There's situational and dispositional, can you help us understand what's the difference between those two things?
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 03:18
Yeah. So I mean, we can think about procrastination as we can about any other sort of, you know, behavior or quality that we might have, it can be something that we do occasionally. And it can be specific to a domain. So you may have someone who's Ultra efficient at work, but when it comes to their health, they have a real hard time following through with that exercise and diet regimen, as they tend to put that off. So if you didn't have domain specific or search what we call situational procrastination, where you just do it in one area of life perhaps and or you may just do it occasionally. And then it becomes more frequent and more generalized, we then start to look at procrastination as more of a chronic tendency, almost like a personality trait. So something that you would do frequently and across a wide variety of situations, and probably to a greater degree of harm. That's what we refer to as sort of a chronic procrastination.
Jen Lumanlan 04:02
Okay. How common is procrastination?
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 04:07
This is, you know, being around for years, and it is kind of a hard thing to pin down when we use self report measures usually, but what our best estimate suggests that a range say for college university students, for example, it's quite high, could be anywhere from you know, 80 to 95%. Have, okay, you know, procrastinate once in a while. Okay. And that makes some sense, if you think about the academic environment and the constant demands on time and, you know, the challenges involved there. In the adult population, other estimates depending on what country you go to, can range from between, say, 15 and 25% of the adult population procrastinate chronically, I should back up and say, though, too, so although it makes sense that students procrastinate quite frequently, there's actually some evidence to suggest that 50% of students do so chronically. And that becomes quite problematic, especially when you know, it can affect their academic achievement.
Jen Lumanlan 04:59
Yeah, I was super curious when I read the range of which people procrastinate with students being so high. And I'm just thinking, is this really about the students or is this something about the college experience that is difficult? I mean, I'm thinking it's the first time that students have really been responsible for themselves. They've been in school their whole lives, and you're told what to do and when to do it. And there's a lot of regimented control. And all of a sudden, they're in an environment where they get to make a lot of choices for the first time in their lives, probably. And I was wondering if it's something related to that, rather than something about the students themselves? Because apparently, most of them get over it, right? They're not doing it chronically for the rest of their lives, otherwise, the adult population numbers will be higher.
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 05:37
No, I think, you know, the academic environment certainly be a pressure cooker for procrastination. And there's two things going on there. So this is where I often have some difficulty, because on the one hand, yes, what you're saying, I think, makes a lot of sense that we've got these extra demands. And then for the first time, they're in uncertain situations, we need people prostate more, when they feel uncertainty, there's ambiguity, they don't know what's expected of them. All those are factors that can contribute to a tendency to procrastinate, and so you know, all of that, and the anxiety around that the stress that all can add into it. On the other hand, I often think that the numbers are so high because of the fact that we actually have markers to measure the procrastination, right? So we talked about academic procrastination, and how many times did you submit work late, right, because you didn't get your assignment done, that you love studying to the last minute. So we have a much clearer way of assessing whether somebody's procrastinating in an academic environment. But we don't have that same clear way when we look at procrastination in the adult environment, our questions change, they become more generalized about, you know, generally, you know, how often do you put things off? Or I'm always saying, I'm going to do it tomorrow. So I think actually, the stats on procrastination in the adult population are probably underestimated if anything, I still think they're higher in the college environment for the reasons that you just mentioned, I think it's underestimated in the adult population, just because we don't measure it the same way. We don't have those same hard deadlines, except maybe in the work environment, you know, quite a different situation.
Jen Lumanlan 07:05
Yeah, you also have psychology professors offering course credit to complete questionnaires about procrastination on a regular basis. So you're asking people regularly as well, right. So presumably, that has something to do with it?
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 07:18
Yeah, it's highly assessed, you know, there was a researcher in Israel, for example, who's done quite a few large scale surveys of the types of procrastination that people engage in what domains they procrastinate in, how often they procrastinate. And the numbers are coming up roughly about, you know, the same as what they are in some of the North American Studies, for example, but you know, one of the biggest areas that people procrastinate, and which is I found quite interesting was our health. So that actually was top ranked in that particular survey that was conducted. But yeah, again, we don't ask the same questions about procrastination to come to those numbers in the adult populations is what we do in the student populations.
Jen Lumanlan 07:54
Yeah. Okay. So let's pick up that thread on health then. So I know you've studied procrastination in regards to people's health a lot. What are some of the interconnections there? How does procrastination affect people's health?
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 08:03
That means this is what got me into the whole field of procrastination research, you know, 20 some odd years ago, because the first study on this had come out in 1997. And it suggested that student procrastinators tended to be report better health at the beginning of term and worse health at the end of term. And there were some suggestions that may have to do with stress or other things. And study didn't really address that. And so that got me into looking at, you know, what's going on? What are the pathways here, you know, if you look at chronic procrastination as sort of a personality trait, and you look at some of the other theories and research has been done on the links between personality and health, it seems sort of common pathways come up mainly, these are having to do with through stress, okay, additional stress and through, you know, impeding important health behaviors. And this is, in fact, what I found in my research, both in cross sectional and longitudinal research with the student populations and adult populations as well. So you know, procrastination is always you can think of it, someone who chronically procrastinates is going to create a lot of stress for themselves. And we know stress has really, you know, negative impact on our health states in the short term in terms of compromising immune system and making us more vulnerable to infections and other types of stress related illnesses, but also in the long term as well, right, it can have a really detrimental effect on our immune system functioning and make us more vulnerable for development of a variety of chronic diseases major in life. So stress is one pathway but also if you're procrastinating, which is a it's a behavior and you're procrastinating things that are you find unpleasant and most people find making changes to their health routines unpleasant because you have to give up sweets or they have to become more active rather than sitting down in front of a screen, then they're likely to put those behaviors off too. And we know you know, all the researchers have done for decades that health behaviors are a key pathway for someone's health trajectory. So if you don't engage in health behaviors you set yourself up for obesity or heart health, diabetes, cancer, arthritis, you name that. Right? And so those are really the two pathways that I've been investigating. And you know, there's correlates along there, such as coping. And we know that procrastinators don't cope very well with their stress, which means they're going to be experiencing more intensely, and it's going to have more of those negative consequences on their health.
Jen Lumanlan 10:15
Okay, so I want to dig into this idea of the links between procrastination and stress a little bit more, because I was really trying to sort that out in my own mind. And you said in the current book, procrastinating on important and intended tasks can lead people to experience a range of negative thoughts and emotions, including guilt, shame, stress, anxiety, depression, self loathing feelings of competency, I looked back to some of the studies you referenced, which referenced other studies, which are looking at mostly correlational, rather than causal evidence. And then you also wrote another book in 2016, where you wrote, there's little to no research to date providing evidence of procrastination associated with chronic stress. And then you sort of go on to conclude that procrastination is linked to chronic stress. And so I'm trying to understand is it that stress is a really sort of big thing. And procrastination impacts that a little bit in some way. And that stress is really the thing to focus on, or is procrastination, like procrastination is a really big source of stress in how people manage their health
Dr. Fuschia Sirois 11:04
Flat out, stress is bad for your health, right? Like that is a key thing. So you know, being someone who studies personality and health, we look at personality as a source of stress, but it says stable source of stress. Right? So I think, you know, we're saying there about, there isn't the evidence to look over time. So I've done cross sectional studies, right, where we looked at, for example, there's one study where we have 1000 people, pulled out people who had a clean bill of health, no chronic health conditions and those who had poor heart health. So hypertension and cardiovascular disease, looked at their scores on the measure of chronic procrastination control, other personality variables, other socio economic status variables that we know make someone vulnerable for poor heart health. And, you know, the odds came out that basically, if you know, for every one point increase on that procrastination measure chronic procrastination, your odds of being in the poor heart health group went up by 63%. Right? You know, it's cross sectional, that's not a minor thing. If it makes sense, theoretically, that we're talking about not poor management of stress, poor management of health behaviors to indicators of poor health and chronic illness over time, theoretically, it makes sense that way. So we don't have the longitudinal research, I guess it's what I was saying to show that there's linked to chronic stress, we can't, but you have to show that over time. Theoretically, though, we know that if this is a chronic tendency, and in the short run, it generates stress, it's going to continue to generate stress. So theoretically, cross nation, we can reasonably say that it's linked to chronic stress. Okay, right. Okay. I think that's where the clarification in terms of what you were saying, it wasn't contradicting so much, theoretically, we know. And we know that from other personality traits to where there has been more research on say, like the big five factors and that type of thing, then there has been procrastination and stress. But theoretically, we would expect this, and I have that one study to suggest that, in fact, that may be the case. But I agree, you know, we need more work, to research to follow over time, if people are interested in that. And I think going back to your original question about, you know, is it stress or is it procrastination, it's always stress. But, I mean, there's a number of sources of stress. And if somebody has a general behavioral tendency that puts them at risk for greater...
Mutual Aid: Building Solidarity During This Crisis (and the Next) - Affiliate link
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If you’d like a bit more of a sense for what it’s like to be in the membership before you join, I hope to see you on our FREE You Are Your Child’s Best Teacher masterclass coming up this Thursday August 15, 2024 at 11am Pacific. You’ll get a good chunk of what we discussed in the recent five-day workshop - in just 90 minutes! Jump to highlights: 03:07 Invitation to join the Supporting Your Child Learning Membership 03:50 What life in a homestead is like for Claire's family 05:43 How does their way of life show out in her child 07:07 Ways that Claire support her child’s learning prior joining the membership 09:17 Claire's lack of connection to what she was studying in school 10:09 How her passion for art continues to influence Claire’s life today 11:39 Getting community support for Claire help her a lot in embarking her journey in the membership 12:58 Claire's thoughts and difficulties she encountered when she began the first module 14:53 Claire’s learning explorations with her child’s interest in letters and writing 16:20 How Claire's daughter uses writing to express her feelings about their relationship 17:49 Claire’s positive and negative feelings when she first started homeschooling her child 19:10 Our education system is failing because we compel teachers to work inside a system that does not work for children. 21:42 Claire's methods for supporting her child in discovering what she is truly interested in 24:36 Listening to our child with the idea that we might be the one who comes out of experience changed 26:45 Ways we help our children explore what they already know and considering their needs and interests to be worthy 28:16 Claire's daughter shows an interest in experiments and independently determining the next steps she needs. 32:05 Claire can foresee herself in the future just being guide on the side 35:42 Claire's journey to trusting herself and her child with the help of her community 38:50 What it’s like having self-compassion with our childDo you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
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All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!Learning Membership
Do you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!Neurodiversity Studies: A New Critical Paradigm (Routledge Advances in Sociology) (Affiliate link).
Learning Membership
Do you want to turn your child’s interests into learning opportunities? The Learning Membership is here to help you. Make learning a fun adventure that not only strengthens your bond, but also nurtures your child’s intrinsic love of learning—an essential foundation for success in an AI-driven world.
Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!Give Children the Vote: On Democratizing Democracy (Affiliate link).
Boys’ Bodies: Speaking the Unspoken - Affiliate link
Jump to highlights (03:31) What does it mean to be a boy (05:17) There is a type of masculinity that is perceived to be the most masculine (06:21) The problem with the phrase “Boys will be boys” (08:24) Understanding Masculine and Feminine binary (10:09) How much influence do gender stereotypes or gender norms around masculinity have on boys' relationships, particularly at school? (16:27) How mental and physical affection have shown up in boys' and men's relationships (21:37) Why do boys and men feel pressure to conform to traditional masculine norms? (23:38) Ways that girls regulated men's roles in society (27:49) How can gender diversity be supported (30:25) Boys seem to need action-based learning, rather than docile literacy-based tasks (33:54) The importance of disrupting thinking in supporting boys in their resistance to the norms of masculinity (40:07) Do boys desire close male-to-male friendships? (42:29) Power of discomfort as a learning opportunity References: Anderson, E., Adams, A., & Rivers, I. (2012). “I kiss them because I love them”: The emergence of heterosexual men kissing in British institutes of education. Archives of Sexual Behavior 41(2), 421-430.Dr. Marnina Gonick’s Books:
Young Femininity: Girlhood, Power and Social Change 2004th Edition
Between Femininities: Ambivalence, Identity, and the Education of Girls (SUNY series, Second Thoughts: New Theoretical Formations) (Affiliate links).
Jump to highlights: (03:36) How changes in cultural norms influence our understanding of what it means to be a girl. (05:27) The way in which a change in behavior can help us understand the experiences of girls in general. (06:36) What does the school curriculum say about girls that causes them to be disadvantaged in schools. (08:35) How damaging it is for girls to be victims in a patriarchal society. (10:25) Why our social systems aren't necessarily organized around girls' well-being (12:50) The concept of girl power can be seen as either working for or against females. (14:46) The Social Barriers to Girl Power. (16:44) Criticisms of the movie "Mean Girls" and how they relate to the topic of empowering women in general. (18:34) The relational aggressiveness between boys and girls. (21:45) Why school cultures play a significant influence in bullying. (24:19) Finding acceptable ways for girls to show their relational aggression. (26:17) Factors that influences a child to become racist and disrespectful. (28:07) A growing number of institutions and businesses have taken an interest in the girl power movement. (31:34) Girls' ways of discovering their sense of identity/sexuality. (35:16) Different notions of sexiness in girls. (39:28) How heterosexuality highlights femininity. (41:24) Girls are going to be mean to each other human nature makes it inevitable. (43:37) How important is it to understand our feelings and the feelings of our children. References: Aapola, S., Gonick, M., & Harris, A. (2005). Young femininity: Girlhood, power, and social change. Basingstoke: Palgrave MacMillanFor the first time, in this episode I bow out and and let listeners Jenny and Emma take over, who wanted to share how they’ve been supporting each other over the last few months.
They started from pretty different points: Emma wasn’t having parenting struggles, but often over-communicated with her husband and he would stonewall in response, agreeing to whatever she asked so she would stop talking. Then he would resist later, and she couldn’t understand why…because he had agreed, right?
Jenny’s sleep had been disturbed by her child for more than four years…she was exhausted, and had no idea how to deal with her rage-filled kindergartener who would hit her whenever he was upset.
Neither of them had much confidence that being on a Zoom call together for 40 minutes a week would help them.
Emma and her husband now communicate in a way that meets both of their needs, and can navigate the challenges that come up with their preschooler.
Jenny is sleeping! And she has learned how deep listening and true empathy help her son to feel really heard…and incidents that used to lead to 45 minute meltdowns that would disrupt the rest of the day are now over in 10 minutes, and are actually connecting for them.
Jenny and Emma did all this with a bit of information from me…but mostly by being fully present for each other in a small ‘village’ of parents, inside the slightly larger village of the Parenting Membership.
If you want help to break down the changes you want to make into tiny manageable steps and be held (gently!) accountable for taking them (or adjusting course if needed…), we’d love to have you join the three of us plus a group of likeminded parents in the membership.
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Click the image below to learn more about the Parenting Membership. Join the waitlist to get notified when doors reopen in May 2025.
(01:00) Jenny and Emma came up with the idea to record an episode for the podcast to talk about how their parenting has changed over the last year.(01:55) Emma wasn’t having major problems, but wanted to be prepared for the challenges that may happen down the road.(02:36) Jenny was struggling because she hadn’t had a full night’s sleep in 4 ½ years…and now prioritizes herself through the support of Emma and the members of the ACTion group.(03:55) An open Invitation to join the Parenting Membership.(04:45) Because Emma is a high achiever, she imagined parenthood to be a breeze.(06:57) Jenny believed that if you are prepared and serene, and you bring this calm energy to your pregnancy, you will have an easy child.(08:24) The lack of understanding of our values is what causes us to be conflicted about becoming parents.(12:00) Our child’s big feelings are their way of letting us know that they are not okay.(14:30) It's great to have a community who we can trust, and who will support and respect our values(16:30) The ACTion group conversation once a week gives parents a foundation to parent more intentionally(18:26) Emma used the problem-solving method to find a solution for her child's resistance during nail cutting by trying to hypothesize her child’s feelings.(20:17) Needs can be met when you remove the ‘shoulds.’(25:31) Jenny’s parenting has been a lot less tense over the past year and a half, which was a wonderful surprise.(30:48) Jenny saw big changes when she used a deep listening technique with her son during an episode of intense anger and frustration, which ended the episode much more quickly than usual!(37:25) It's life-changing to see a profound change in our children and ourselves when both of our needs are fulfilled.
Emma 00:04
Hi, I'm Emma, and I'm listening from the UK we all want our children to lead fulfilled lives. But we're surrounded by conflicting information and clickbait headlines that leave us wondering what to do as parents. The Your Parenting Mojo podcast distills scientific research on parenting and child development into tools parents can actually use every day in their real lives with their real children. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released, and get a free infographic on the 13 reasons your child isn't listening to you, and what to do about each one, just head on over to your parentingmojo.com/subscribe. And pretty soon, you're going to get tired of hearing my voice read this intro. So come and record one yourself at your parentingmojo.com/record the intro.
Jen Lumanlan 00:46
Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're going to do something I've never done before in 150+ episodes of the show, which is that apart from this introduction, I'm not in the show at all. Two listeners, Jenny and Emma reached out to ask if they could record an episode about how their experience in parenting has shifted over the last year or so. And I gave a very cautious acceptance not really having much of an idea of what they wanted to discuss. I've interacted with each of them but not together. And I don't know much about their relationship. And I have to say it's a bit strange to say their names together because my full name is Jenny and my sister's name is Emma. So this is like a different Jenny and Emma show. And then when I listened to the recording of their conversation, I realized how close they've grown over the last year, they both happen to be in the parenting membership. And they're in the same ACTion group, which is a group of up to five parents who meet with an experienced peer leader. And I think that many parents think that that experience isn't really going to be very useful, especially when they're already pretty sick of being on Zoom calls. Jenny and Emma were in very different places in parenting, when they joined the membership, Emma's son was still pretty young. And she and her husband thought, well, we're not really having any problems now. So should we actually spend money on this. And they eventually decided to do it because they wanted to be prepared for challenges that happen down the road. And then challenges did go up. And they felt prepared for them because they'd already been practicing the tools. And when it turned out that some of their big challenges were actually in communication between Emma and her husband, because he was agreeing to do things he didn't really want to do just so she would stop explaining, we had a consult where we were able to identify some of those issues so they could really see what each other's needs were and how to communicate to meet each other's needs. I've seen them both on coaching calls since that consult, but I hadn't talked with them about that specific issue. And I had no idea until I heard this recording how transformational that experience had been. And Jenny sort of came into the membership with her hair on fire because she basically hadn't had a full night of sleep in over four years. And she had very specific ideas about what parenting was going to look like. And it was actually being in that group with Emma and the other parents that gave her permission in a way to prioritize yourself and take the actions that she needed to get sleep on the right track, which freed up her energy for other things, which sounds so incredibly simple, but she hadn't been able to actually do it without that extra support. Jenny tells us about a tool that she learned in the membership called Radical listening, and how such a simple yet profound practice has shifted how her child is able to be in their relationship. And the side benefit is that his big expressions of anger that used to take 45 minutes to work through and really interrupt their day are now over and done within 10 minutes. And they move on with the rest of their day. And now Jenny and Emma have grown so close, they're invested in each other's success. And they know they can show up in tears and looking at a complete wreck and know they won't be judged and they can share their successes and know it won't be a competition about who's doing better than whom because they care about each other so much, Emma certainly and probably Jenny to figure that most of the value they were going to get in the membership would be in the materials that I produce. And yes, they've certainly learned things from that that have helped them. But it's both humbling and wonderful for me to see how they've actually become skilled at using these ideas because of what they've learned from each other. If you'd like to really feel like part of a village and get this kind of support in your own parenting journey, the parenting memberships open for enrollment right now until midnight Pacific this coming Wednesday, May 25. sliding scale pricing is available and so is a money back guarantee. You can find more information at your parentingmojo.com/parentingmembership. And now let's hear from Jenny and Emma themselves.
Jenny 04:16
I'm Jenny and I grew up in the US but now live in Europe with my husband and we have a six year old son.
Emma 04:24
I'm Emma and I have a nearly three year old and I live in the UK
Jenny 04:30
Super. I do have some questions just to help kick things off. So I’m going to start byasking you Emma, what were your expectations of parenthood before becoming a parent? And then once you got there, what was the reality?
Jenny 04:43
I think I expected parenting to be a lot easier as an overachiever in life, I sort of thought well, if I do enough learning in life about it beforehand, then I'll just breeze into it. It'll be a breeze but it would be something more straightforward then it actually is, I'm a teacher by training. So I felt that having the experience with children would be beneficial. I think it has been in some way. But it's been quite a journey actually separating the way that I want to interact with my child from how I've been trained as a teacher, because a school is a very specific setup where the needs are not necessarily looking at the child. And it's not the focus isn't the relationship between the adults and the children, about the academic achievements of the children, as I've been a parent for longer, I have realized that my values don't necessarily align that closely with the goals of the school system. And so my parenting has diverged quite a lot from that as well.
Jenny 05:41
And parenting is at the end of it really all about relationships, right. And that's a very different goal. If you're looking to nurture a relationship versus trying to get a room full of 20 students to learn the same thing.
Emma 05:56
Yeah, absolutely. I think it was a big shock for us as well, my husband's a teacher as well. And I think he has a similar feeling that he thought it was just something that it'd be hard, but we'd be okay. And he sort of said before that his White male privilege, he sort of thought, Well, yeah, there's been lots of things in life that people say hard, but it's been okay. And then parenting sort of hit him in the face, like, oh, no, wait, wait, those things are easy because of my privilege. This is just hard.
Emma 05:56
Universally hard.
Emma 05:59
Yeah. How about you?
Jenny 06:01
A lot of what you just said feels familiar to me, although my background is really different. I was in the corporate worlds in finance, and my upbringing, and and my work experience, it was definitely this feeling of like, if you work hard enough, you're going to be able to achieve anything. And of course, that applies to parenting too. And for me, I have a track record of when things get busy, and the workload increases, I just sleep less and I barrel through and like depend on my stamina. And that set me up for a very unhealthy start with my child. I thought that if you are prepared and you are serene, and you kind of bring this calm energy to your pregnancy, then you're gonna have quote, unquote, easy child, and that an easy child is desirable. There was a lot of talk within my family circle about that, because there have been some easy kids and some not easy kids and all this value wrapped up with having an easy baby. And then my kid arrived and didn't sleep through the night for four and a half years, and was definitely not what I would qualify as the typical easy child. And there was a lot of shame for me in that like, oh, gosh, I must not have been calm enough or secure in my own approach to mothering or whatever it is. And yeah, I just I kind of set myself up for a fall with all of these ideas I had about parenting and and the reality is so different. I also just assumed that it being the 21st century, like, of course, we're going to be smashing gender norms in our family. And that very quickly fell absolutely down when my son was nursing and only wanted me and I ended up doing all the night feeds and all the night stuff. And like just getting to the point where I was so exhausted, I couldn't even articulate my frustration with that situation or do anything about it. So yeah, it was a pretty big wake up call once my son was here.
Emma 08:22
Yeah, I think that was me as well. I don't think I understood my values, and how much they conflicted on becoming a parent, because, you know, similarly, as a staunch feminist in the workplace, I had certain ideas about how I thought things would play out, you know, I thought I'd be back at work.
Jenny 08:38
Yeah.
Emma 08:40
Everything that I used to be that life wouldn't have much changed. And actually, the reality is that didn't work for us is a difficult thing, coming to terms with how much your identity has had to shift and realizing that actually, your order of priorities might be different to what you previously thought.
Jenny 08:57
Absolutely. I don't know if you had some of this too. But I also absolutely thought that I would be back to some sort of work within months, and just the total lack of sleep and constant nursing, put an end to that thought really quickly. And I found myself actually grappling with some inner misogyny and like lots of this kind of work and productivity above everything else training in me. Like I'd be out at the playground with the carriage with my son sitting like, Am I allowed to be here? Shouldn't I be in an office earning money? This feels really weird. feeling like I was playing hooky from life by with my child and things like we gotten to this very stereotypical situation where my husband has become the main breadwinner and for a while I couldn't work but then I was working just part time and me really thinking of it in terms of the financial side of things, valuing his time valuing his sleep and feeling like the work that I did do the sleep that I got, none of it was as important As him and having a lot of anger about that, but that wasn't what he was saying. That's not how he was acting. But it was always an internal process within me that felt like, Okay, now that I'm just a mother, I'm worthless, which I could see and I could feel that it was not a productive thought to be having. But I couldn't stop it for a while, like I was just kind of seeing it rise up in me and realizing that, oh, gosh, what does this say about my beliefs about women about caretaking about my own mother, it took me a long time to kind of get through just the negative feelings about it to someplace that I could think about it more objectively and change my perspective a bit. But that was also something I never expected to have to confront in the role of parent.
Emma 10:43
How long was that going on? Before you join the membership, what triggered it or
Jenny 10:46
it was something that I was dealing with for quite a lot of the time and it was compounded, I think also just by exhaustion, but that's not what triggered me joining the membership, I came to the membership relatively late, my son had just started kindergarten. And we were going through an acute phase of big feelings. I had another mother warned me that when my child goes to kindergarten, like the first couple months, you're not going to recognize your kid, because it's such a big transition for them, they're going to come home and just have horrendous behavior, because it's just how they process and she said, but like, just hang in there. And after a couple of months, it's all going to even out. We were four or five months in, it was just getting more and more intense. My son would come home at lunch time every day. And I felt like the smallest thing would set him off, he would color outside the lines. And there would be an explosion of anger pointed at me. Sometimes he would get physical, it would take us like a half an hour, 40 minutes, 45 minutes to get through, like where he could get past the anger. And we could reconnect and be okay, for half an hour an hour until the next thing would set him off. And it was like this every day. And I knew enough from the parenting content that I'd read about or listened to that emotions and big behavior like that. It's communication. It's your child letting you know that they're not okay. And I got that with my head. But even though I wouldn't show it to my son, I was really struggling not to feel angry back at him. Anger is a really tough emotion for me. Historically, I have never felt it. And suddenly I was feeling it every day, but swallowing it. And it was friggin exhausting. And yeah, I was trying different things. But nothing was really working. And yeah, just all this swallowing of my own emotion and all this frustration and all like seeing him struggle and being in so much emotional discomfort that was going on along with me also having some personal issues. I was kind of having a bit of a burnout at the same period. So I was basically a mess when I joined the parenting membership, how about you?
Emma 13:00
Ah, my story was quite different. So our little was still quite young. He was now 18 months-ish, and we were about a year into lockdown. I mean, obviously, it...
Adrianna and Tim had read all the parenting books. (And I mean ALL the books.)
But NOTHING seemed to be working.
They were still feeling frustrated with their kids on a very regular basis.
And their kids were fighting what seemed like every second of the day.
They joined the Parenting Membership last May, and the transformation our community has seen in them has been profound.
The shift started after we had a consult about their youngest daughter’s difficult behavior, which we realized was a sign of her unmet needs. (I do these 1:1 (or 1:2!) consults on a regular basis for members when I see them struggling with an issue that just can’t be addressed in writing.)
Ideas percolated. They increased the amount of 1:1 time they were spending with her, doing things she liked to do.
They attended a couple of group coaching calls and we talked more about their specific situation.
Things improved a bit.
But then it all came to a head when Adrianna posted in the community about her children’s fighting, which had become more intense than ever.
A whole lot of parents chimed in with ideas to support them, which are grounded in the ideas I’d previously discussed with her - but sometimes you need to hear things in a different way, with stories from parents who have just recently been through the same difficult stuff you’re experiencing, and they made it out the other side.
Suddenly something clicked for Adrianna. She started to see her children’s needs in a way she hadn’t before, and she started having super explicit conversations with them about their needs, and also her needs.
And then the magic started to happen, firstly in interactions between either Adrianna or Tim and their oldest child, Bodhi:
Then the two children began using these problem solving tools between themselves. All of a sudden these two children who had literally been tearing each other’s hair out could identify their own needs, and each other’s needs, and find solutions that work for both of them. And they’re five and three years old!
And all of this happened in what Adrianna calls the most supportive, least judgmental corner of the internet:
I invited Adrianna and Tim to tell us about their journey on the podcast.
Their response - delivered in unison - when I asked them: “So you’d read all the books, and you had so many doubts that ANYTHING could work for you…so why on earth did you join the membership?” was priceless.
If parenting feels really hard, and it seems like you’ve read all the books and you’ve asked for advice in free communities and you’re tired of having to weed through all the stuff that isn’t aligned with your values to get to the few good nuggets, then the Parenting Membership will help you out.
Click the banner to learn more and sign up. Join the waitlist to get notified when doors reopen in May 2025.
Shownotes:
(01:46) Overview of Adrianna and Tim's membership journey. (04:18) An open invitation to join the Parenting Membership.(06:06) Growing up in a dysfunctional household was not uncommon for either Adrianna or Tim.(08:57) Adrianna and Tim believed they were the best parents of the year until they began to sink.(10:10) The anger and irrationality that Tim displays toward Adrianna as a result of his frustrations.(11:03) How Adrianna was managing her mental health issues while also navigating the challenges presented by her two challenging children.(12:45) Tim and Adrianna are frustrated since they've tried everything to make parenthood work.(14:04) The Parenting Membership was the only hope for Adriana and Tim.(18:07) The significant impact on our child when we step down from their level.(19:15) How Adrianna was able to meet the needs of both of her children at the same moment.(22:14) Bodie and Remy practicing the ways in which both of their needs can be fulfilled.(25:27) The result of Adriana and Tim's child's unmet demand for his father.(26:49) Tim’s experience in learning different methods of parenting and his perspective on whether dads should really do this job.(28:13) Adriana and Tim's positive outlook for the future.(31:21) How the membership and tools help Adrianna and Tim strengthen their marriage(32:47) Adrianna’s shift from not seeing her needs as valid to having the confidence in understanding what her needs are.
In her book Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home, Toko-pa Turner talks about the disconnection we feel from others, as well as from our own selves, because of the experiences we’ve had in our childhood. While Toko-pa’s childhood was traumatic by any definition, even those of us who didn’t experience severe trauma were told - either verbally or non-verbally: You’re not enough. You’re not good enough. Or even: You’re too much.And we shut off that part of us, whatever it was. Our sense of joy, our creativity, our need for autonomy. We set aside those needs so we could be accepted by our family, whose love we craved more than anything in the world.But that doesn’t mean we need to always live our lives in this way. We can accept the pain and suffering we’ve experienced, and incorporate that into new, more whole ways of being in the world. A big part of this is finding a new relationship with our needs - seeing them, understanding them, being willing to articulate them. Being willing to ask for help in meeting our needs - from our children, our partners, and our communities. Toko-pa points out that our culture teaches us that the giver is in the position of strength; they are rich and secure and don’t need anyone’s help. The receiver is the weak, poor, needy one (the whole thing smacks of femininity, doesn’t it?). So to be in the position of strength we give and give and give until we don’t have anything left.But we have needs too, and we deserve to have these met, and to invite others to help us meet them - and this episode helps us to get started.I want to remind you of a couple of upcoming opportunities if you see that your own needs are not being met right now.
If you want to make your own transformation from a relationship where your child JUST DOESN’T LISTEN to one where you have mutual care and respect for each other’s needs, then the Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits workshop is for you.
Go from constant struggles and nagging to a new sense of calm & collaboration. I will teach you how to set limits, but we'll also go waaaay beyond that to learn how to set fewer limits than you ever thought possible. Sign up now for the self-guided Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits for just $7. Click the banner to learn more.
Toko-Pa Turner's Book
Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home (Affiliate Link).Jump to highlights(02:18) We create separation because we worry that we won’t be acceptable to the world.(02:50) An open invitation to join the free Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits Workshop.(05:01) Toko-Pa’s quest for belonging leaves her hungry for her mother's love and recognition.(06:38) Our first experiences of not belonging come at the hands of our families(08:51) Due to the dogma we have lived, we learn to hide, dismiss, or separate our feelings that are not valued (12:03) The desire to teach our child a lesson comes from our own pain, resulting from our own trauma.(13:25) Women are raised with extensive cultural history programming that dictates how a proper lady should behave.(18:54) The Death Mother is an archetype that represents a mother who takes control of her children's narrative lives in order to overcome her own traumas.(24:12) Being a mother has no worth in our culture, because they live to serve their children.(26:50) We gain a sense of belonging when we can help others.(33:43) The fear and shame associated with being an imposition on others.(37:44) You burden people when you show that you are in pain and in need.(42:00) Being seen is a paradox. It's the thing that we want more than anything, but we fear it more than anything too.(48:22) The purpose of our dreams.(54:53) Belonging yourself to those who need you - both human and other-than-human.
The Sleep Solution: Why Your Sleep is Broken and How to Fix It (Affiliate links).
[accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan 00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives. But it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released, and get a free guide called 13 reasons why your child won't listen to you, and what to do about each one, just head over to yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners and the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us. Jen Lumanlan 01:00 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're going to talk about a topic that I know interests parents everywhere and that is sleep. We've already covered this on the show from the perspective of looking at cross-cultural ideas about sleep. But today we're here with an expert who's going to give us some practical ideas about how to get more sleep. Now I know that sleep is an important topic to parents with children of all ages, but it's especially important to expecting parents and those with newborns. And if that describes you right now, I also wanted to let you know that the Right From The Start course is reopening for enrollment on Sunday, October 24th. I run this course with the amazing Hannah and Kelty of the upbringing podcast. And I truly love doing it with them. Because our skill sets complement each other so well. I bring all the research-based information you've come to expect from this show as well as 100 hours of coaching, training, and a good deal of experience in coaching parents over the years. And they bring a lot of training and topics relevant to new parents. But the reason that I wanted to work with them specifically on the course is that they're trained in resources for infant educators or RIE methods, but they aren't RIE associates, which means they help parents to take what they find useful out of RIE rather than seeing it as a prescriptive set of tools. And of course, as twins themselves and being the parents of four children between them, they've just about seen it all from the perspective of siblings, so they can offer a lot of guidance to parents who aren't new at the parenting thing, but who also know that they can't do things the same as they did them with their previous child, or they don't want to do them like that. So the course has 10 modules and runs over nine weeks, all of the content is available in video and audio, and there are transcripts as well so you can learn in the way that you learn best. We have a supportive community of parents who are on this journey with you that isn't on Facebook. And we also meet for group coaching calls regularly as well. The parents who have taken the course tell us that they got the knowledge they knew they needed, but what they didn't even know they needed was the community of parents who really do get to know each other and us as well on the coaching calls, who offer support and guidance related to whatever struggles we're facing during this period in our lives from trying to figure out who you are as a person with a newborn to your shifting relationship with your partner, and your own parents as well to navigating difficult sibling behavior. We cover it all. So if you're expecting a child or you have one under one year old, the right from the start course was designed for you and I'm as I'm sure you can tell, it doesn't mean that we're going to tell you the one right way to raise a child but rather to help you find the right way for you. So once again, enrollment is open starting Sunday, October 24th. And we start as a group on Monday, November 8th, you can learn more and sign up at yourparentingmojo.com/rightfrom thestart. So our guest today Dr. Chris Winter is a board-certified neurologist and a double board-certified sleep specialist who is in private practice in Charlottesville, Virginia. He consults with athletes on improving their sleep and his first book The Sleep Solution: Why your sleep is broken and how to fix it, was geared towards adults’ challenges with sleep. His new book just published in August is called the Rested Child: Why your tired wired and irritable child may have a sleep disorder and what to do about it. So today we're going to talk about sleep for children, sleep for parents’ and sleep for everybody. Welcome, Chris. It's so great to have you here. Dr. Winter 04:20 Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor. Jen Lumanlan 04:24 So I would like to start by addressing the elephant in the room because I know that parents who are listening to this I want to know your stance on these topics because they want to know if this person's approach is aligned with things that I believe about sleeping, about raising my children, and about my values and beliefs. So bed-sharing. I will say that I found your approach in the book to be a little bit flippant and I will quote what you said, “We used to sleep piled on top of one another in a cave, I suppose. But we also used to banish people with leprosy and smoke cigarettes in operating rooms. We evolve.” And that to me sort of implies the only backwards people in backwards countries, you haven't yet seen the light in the sort of Western, educated, industrialized, rich, democratic approach to sleep, they're just, you know, our approach is clearly superior, and they're missing out on some important development. When actually I know the research has shown that people who live in those countries, you asked them about their children's sleep problems, and they're like, “What sleep problems?” So tell me more about your stance on bed sharing and where that came from, and what you believe about it. Dr. Winter 05:30 Sure. So, I think it's important to define evolve, because you're putting a judgment on it, when in fact, evolve just means take something that's simple and make it more complicated. And we do that very well in this country. I used to be able to fix my own car, I cannot do that anymore, because the cars have evolved to the point now where it doesn't allow that to happen. So I do think that sleep was very simple in the past, and it's become very complicated. People did sleep in one room at some point in the past, and now you have a nice house in Gwinnett County, you know, Atlanta, and every one of your seven kids have their own bedroom and their own situation. So I'm not here to pass judgment on anything, my stance on co-sleeping is, you do what's right for your family and your children, I don't really have an opinion on it one way or the other. Outside of two things. One, I do think that it is important to be careful with little children when you sleep with them just out of a danger perspective and I don't think that's particularly radical, although I do think it took a while for the American Academy of Pediatrics to really come out with a position on it just because of this kind of, you know, feelings about it. It’s deeply personal to people the way they sleep, so I personally believe that it's probably not a great idea to sleep in a bed with a child under the age of one. Just because, you know, I think that we have seen bad outcomes. I've seen, I think, as of today, 32,233 people in my clinic, and four of them have had issues where children have perished in the night because of a family member role on top of them. That's a very, very, very small percentage, far less than what you know, would be quoted for SIDS. So to me if a parent understands that, and it's very important to them to take that risk. I'm not really here to judge that. I can say that of the people that we spoke to when that happened, including a family member of somebody who works for me, it was deeply traumatic, and something that they never wanted to repeat again. I think that's different, though, then a family bed or co-sleeping, I mean, I think that's a very different situation. The other bias that I have is that of those 32,000 people that have come to my clinic, I have yet to encounter somebody who says, “I'm sleeping with all four of my children and it's going great. I just wondered if you give me some tips on how to make it even better.” The vast majority of people that we're seeing are sort of the opposite. It's like help us to make the situation that we've chosen, which is to not have a child in bed with us, more functional and better. So I’m here to support anybody. I think that the people who are co-sleeping and doing well with it, don't really have to see me or by the book. And I think co-sleeping can be really helpful because when you look at some of the disorders of sleep that we talked about in the book, there's sort of a mystery to the parent or parents that aren't with their children until they share the hotel room, until they go to grandmother's house, and share a bed because grandma has one spare bedroom, where they're like, “Dear God, my child does this thing at night. We had no idea.” So, you know, even if you're somebody who believes not, you're not in co-sleeping, it might not be a bad idea once a month to kind of check-in like, “We're all sleeping together to make sure we're not harboring bad sleep problems.” And so anyway, I think and then the only other thing I would say that again, there's a selection bias here too, is that when kids come to have sleep studies apparent we make a parent accompany them. And so our sleep centers and hotels, it's very comfortable that the child has a bed and the parent has a bed in this you know Hotel it truly, it's a Hilton Hotel. It's amazing how many times the parent is the one diagnosed with the sleep problem. The tech will say, “The kids are okay, dad is suffocating 38 times an hour kind of thing,” so I do sometimes wonder if, you know, if you're going to co-sleep it might be a good idea to make sure your sleep is really healthy and positive before you subject your child to it, but that's a small percentage, probably. Jen Lumanlan 09:52 Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, thanks for clarifying that. And I guess my stance on co-sleeping has always been, I don't believe It's currently being itself, it's necessarily dangerous. It's currently being in the way that we tend to do it in this country, on a soft bed with a duvet and pillows and above the level of the floor, so the child could potentially roll off the bed. There is some potential danger of rolling onto the child, but my hypothesis based on the research that I have read is that the danger of that happening is much less than the danger of the child suffocating from a pillow or from getting a duvet on them, or rolling off the bed, or something else happening that's based on the practices that we use when we sleep. And that if we didn't use those practices, if we use practices that are more like the practices used where people do co-sleep routinely, then chances are that would be much, much less dangerous. Do you agree with that perspective? Dr. Winter 10:50 Yeah, that's probably very true. You know, a lot of the things that we talked about in terms of having bumpers and cribs, and soft pillows, and stuffed animals, you know, really having a hard surface and a simple surface, and, you know, just and creating things that make you as the parent comfortable, or we co-slept with our kids, they were just in a little bassinet, kind of like you described next to our bed just because I am not interested in sleeping on the floor, even though it might be better. And I know from experience that my wife would sometimes say, it's truly disturbing how deep, deeply you sleep sometimes, because she's been screaming for 30 minutes, and you haven't moved to the point where when I was in residency, my wife would not let me be at home with the kids while I was sleeping unless I was sleeping literally on the floor, as you said, in the nursery away from them, so they could like throw stuff out of the nursery onto my head to wake me out just because I was always, even just kind of on a couch, which is the worst place you sitting there watching TV and you kind of drift off with them on your stomach, like, I was always very paranoid about that. Absolutely. But I would agree with everything you said. Jen Lumanlan 12:03 Okay, I can fully empathize with your wife, too. Dr. Winter 12:07 Yeah, she really feels like I mean, I probably shouldn't announce this. But if people came into the house and announced at night, I would be no help in terms of dealing with the situation. I'm not sure what she thinks I could do in that situation but might be better to sleep through it. I don't know. Jen Lumanlan 12:22 Yeah, maybe. And then you do sort of casually toss out this idea that if we start out co-sleeping, then children are going to refuse to sleep on their own later. And you have this little footnote that says, “Sweetie, can you take your laptop somewhere else to do your calculus homework? Daddy and I need to sleep.” And I have this statistic that quotes a paper that “researchers suggest co-sleeping children slept fewer hours had more sleep disturbances and bedtime resistance, more behavioral and emotional problems than independent sleepers,” but that study involved school-aged children, and also found that the anxiety and nighttime fears predicted co-sleeping rather than the co-sleeping was generating anxiety and fears. So it seemed to me as though it was unlikely that co-sleeping was going to cause behavioral and emotional problems, which is what I understood when I was reading that in your book. What do you think about that? Dr. Winter 13:10 I don't think it causes it. Again, it's just a matter of what does the parent want? And most parents are probably not letting those it's sort of like, oh, no, I remember having a conversation about parents when they said you're too old for a blanket. I have no idea why they chose that particular Tuesday to just take it away from me. My guess is at some point, I would have not been that interested in the blanket, we never told our kids to stop. We call them booze. Okay, no more booze because you're this particular age. So again, I think the footnote was more in line with at some point, parents are like, we don't want to let this sort of play out naturally, I have no doubt in my mind that it always does. I mean, I've never met a family who said, “He's 17. He's still in the bed with us and we really just losing our patience. So to me, that's more about at some point, most co-sleeping families that are coming to see us have decided we're done with it; It's affecting our intimacy, and we want to have some time by ourselves at the end of the night that don't involve the kids in the bed with us. I had an NBA player that had two children in bed, one went to bed every 3rd or 4th nights and he was like, “This is affecting my career because I'm having to get up and change sheets every night. My wife is like that's okay, because this is what we're going to do.” So, again, these are probably true, It’s just I think it's hard to find some parents with the courage to let it play out. They kind of want their lives back. And to your point, that's a big problem when it comes to sleep, I mean, one of my mentors said, you know, most kids sleep problems are parents’ sleep problems, and it's an expectation that we have of our kid that's not meeting our needs, “I've got a lot of work to do. And I'm falling behind and watching episodes of white lotus. So I gotta get this kid in her bed so I can do what I need to do.” If your expectation is they can be in bed with me, they might sleep, they might not, everything. Even adult sleep gets better. So a lot of what we're managing is now, that's why you said what is your stance on sleep training, I love that term as if we're doing like, the parents that didn't train their kids to sleep and now they can't, you know, I mean, it's, it's not swimming, for God's sakes, like they're going to sleep, they may sleep differently than what you would expect or on a different schedule. But the idea that we're training them, we're just kind of guiding some little parameters here and there. So it's interesting the way we think about these things, kids are good sleepers and good eaters, and good breeders and good drinkers, like we just kind of need to step back and let it happen and be on the lookout for problems in those areas. But our dominion over the situation, I think, is a lot less than what we think it is. Jen Lumanlan 16:00 Yeah, and I wanted to translate what you're saying into language that I think will be familiar to people who are longtime listeners of the show, we're really talking about needs...Sugarproof: Protect Your Family from the Hidden Dangers of Excess Sugar with Simple Everyday Fixes (Affiliate link).
[accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen Lumanlan 00:02 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives. But it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a free guide called 13 reasons why your child won't listen to you and what to do about each one, just head over to yourparentingmojo.com/subscribe. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us. Jen Lumanlan 01:00 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're continuing our series of episodes at the intersection of parenting and food with a topic that I know many parents have been eagerly awaiting. We're going to do a deep dive into the research on how sugar impacts our children. And so my guest today Dr. Michael Gordon is a Professor of Pediatrics at the Children's Hospital of Los Angeles, which is affiliated with the Keck School of Medicine at the University of Southern California. He's program Director for diabetes and obesity at the southern Research Institute and he holds the Dr. Robert C and Veronica Atkins endowed chair on childhood obesity and diabetes. Dr. Goran also serves as co-director of the USC diabetes and obesity research institute and he published over 350 peer reviewed articles and reviews. And as editor of the book Childhood Obesity; causes, consequences and intervention approaches. Co-editor of Dietary Sugars and Health and his most recent book co-authored with Emily Ventura is Sugar Proof; the hidden dangers of sugar that are putting your child's health at risk and what you can do. Dr. Gordon has received a variety of awards from his work. He's a native of Glasgow, Scotland, and received his Ph.D. from the University of Manchester in England. Welcome Dr. Goran. Dr. Goran 02:08 Hi, Jen, nice to be here. Thank you so much for having me on and for bringing up this important topic. Jen Lumanlan 02:15 Thank you. And so I wonder if we can start with just a brief overview of your recent book sugar proof and what that contains because we're going to spend most of our time digging into the research that you cite in that book. Dr. Goran 02:26 Yeah, so sugar proof, which was published last year, basically, I wanted to write a book that summarized the research, because the research doesn't always reach the public. So we wanted to get the research out there because families everywhere need to know how and why sugar is affecting kids, short-term, long term, and what we can do about it. So the first section of the book is the science of how sugars affect kids, and why kids are more vulnerable. The second is how to change that in your family, with simple tips, recipes, meal plans, challenges, and so on. And then the third part is the sugar-proof kitchen with recipes and getting kids involved in the process. So we want to put all that together and package it because we think it's just such an important issue right now. Jen Lumanlan 03:22 Yeah, okay, great. And so we're going to spend most of our time today focused on the first portion of the book, which is about what the research says about sugar. And yeah, I know that the second and third portions are just as important. And I've actually been working with my family and some listeners as well on ways that we can incorporate the ideas from the book and shift our own consumption of sugar and see where we hadn't necessarily been seen before. So but today, we'll focus on the scientific research. And so let's start with children's preference for sugary foodsm and I know that you describe your daughter's elementary school science experiment where we she showed an innate preference for sugar where children had a stronger preference for lemonade that had more sugar stirred into it. And teenagers and adults had a lower preference for lemonade with a lot of sugar stirred into it, and they preferred the less sweetened versions. And I'm curious about whether this preference for sugar is learned or innate. Can you speak to that to start, please? Dr. Goran 04:20 Yeah, I think it's both. I think there is an innate preference and a learned adaptation. So we know not just from my daughter's little experiment, but research studies have shown that there's a built-in preference that we're born with a preference for sweetness. And the thought there is that it's supposed to be protective from an evolutionary perspective. It's supposed to favor liking of breast milk, which is sweet, to favor the seeking out of good calories, and to avoid food spoiled or become contaminated, and to avoid toxic foods. But now the food environment is very different than what it was for those ancestors where 80% of foods targeted towards children have added sugars, which has over 200 different names. So I think the food environment in which we're now living is very different to our ancestors. And as soon as infants and children get exposed to sugar, that built-in preference gets amped up even higher. And that's becoming problematic because that just translates to craving more sugar, more sweet foods. So that's the problem that we're faced with. Jen Lumanlan 05:31 Okay. And I know that a lot of the studies that you cite in the book are from experiments on rats, and one of the ones that I want to quote from is, in the book, you say, “If a pregnant mother consumes excessive sugar or sweetness in any form, it can reach the unborn baby, who will then develop an even greater than usual preference for more sweetness.” And so I took a look at the paper that you cited there. And that paper actually didn't specifically look at Sugar, but actually call it and looked at what the author's called a junk food diet, which is a pretty loaded term and included foods like cookies and jam doughnuts, but also potato chips. And the rats were in these cages, and you're getting a choice of either this nutritionally balanced and probably pretty boring rat chow, or these jam, doughnuts and potato chips. And I was sort of just thinking, you know if I'm a rat in a cage, am I going to choose this boring food? Or am I going to choose this probably calorically dense and tasty food? And I'm wondering if that is a rat is the most exciting part of my day, can I really compare the rats response here to living in a cage, but there's nothing else to do to a life where we're out in the world, and we're doing other things, and this is a small part of how we live our lives? Dr. Goran 06:45 Yeah, there's a variety of different studies, you've highlighted one there, which was the study in in rats, that's not the sole evidence, although for this particular question of whether consumption during pregnancy increases that built-in preference for sweetness that we're born with that there's I don't know of any human studies. So we turn to the animal studies for that particular one question. The studies in humans are so difficult to do, you'd have to like take a bunch of pregnant women to control exactly what the during pregnancy. Is it ethical? Is it even doable? I don't know, probably not. And then keep everything else constant. And then look at their babies and monitor their babies for the first several years of life and see how their preference changes. That's a really difficult study to do. There's some fragments of those types of studies that are doable. So what we have to do in this situation is take the whole collection of evidence from rats from humans, cohort observational studies, to try and piece together a story. Actually proving the causation in this any particular situation is so difficult, especially for these long-term studies involving pregnancy exposure, through to infant and childhood development, is just really, really challenging, if not impossible, so we have to use a variety of different approaches to pull together the data and try and come up with a story that matches the findings. Jen Lumanlan 08:18 Okay. All right. And so I think that's sort of a theme that we're going to come back to throughout the conversation here. And so moving on to fructose, I wonder if you can, firstly, tell us what is fructose and how is that different from glucose and other forms of sugar that we're ingesting. And where do we find it? Where does fructose show up? Dr. Goran 08:37 Okay, so in terms of the structure, so ordinary sugar, sucrose, white crystal stuff, it's a type what we call a disaccharide is two smaller sugars joined together. One of those sugars is glucose and one of those other sugars is fructose. That's the sugar in cane, in beats, and many other places. It’s most predominant. Glucose and fructose are almost very similar. They're both have the same chemical formula. Those chemistry fans out there C6H1206. One thing is different though, which turns out to be critical, the glucose is shaped like a hexagon And the fructose is shaped like a pentagon. Soon as you consume that sucrose, glucose and fructose break apart and the different destinies the fructose is twice as sweet as the glucose. The glucose is the energy that's used all throughout the body from your brain down to your toes. It drives metabolism, it drives as the fuel of every cell in your body, so it's vitally important to maintain the glucose levels. Fructose, on the other hand, is not directly used for energy, which is surprising to many people. Almost all of the fructose that gets absorbed in the gut gets taken up by the liver. The job of the live, is to filter everything that gets absorbed by the gut and remove it— drug, toxins, bad chemicals, alcohol, add to that list fructose. The liver filters out the fructose because it doesn't want the fructose getting to the rest of the body. There has to be a reason why. And what does it do with that fructose, it converts it to fat. And that metabolic process is the same as what happens with alcohol and it's very inflammatory. That's what produces some of the inflammatory response to sugar. And that fructose can get stuck in the liver and caused by a liver disease, which wasn't even a disease 10 or 15 years ago, or those fats can be exported back into the blood and caused dyslipidemia, which is the preclinical marker for cardiovascular disease. And that's why we see a relationship between sugar consumption and heart diseases because of the fructose being converted to lipids in the liver. So it's not just about the calories, it's about what happens to those different chemicals that get absorbed and how how they're different. That's a long answer to the first part of your question. Jen Lumanlan 11:04 Wait, which was actually a very, very step by step and helped me to visualize it. So thank you for that. Dr. Goran 11:10 So visualize those molecules is a good way to do it. And the second part of the question was, where do we find fructose, right? So, so ordinary sugar is half fructose, like I just mentioned. And then there's some sugars that are even higher and fructose, high fructose corn syrup being the most infamous, which most people are now quite familiar with, and know what to look out for and know to avoid. But there's other sugars that are just as common, if not more common, that are even higher in fructose. Some of the fruit sugars, for example, so fructose is ordinarily the predominant sugar in fruit, which usually sets off alarm bells for many people, based on what I just said, they're thinking, “Oh, I'm putting two and two together he did he just say we shouldn't eat fruit?” And that's not what I said. Okay. Because we'll talk about this. Also, eating fruit is very different than extracting the fructose from the fruit and concentrating it, which is what happens in fruit sugar. So fruit sugar, which is very popular sugar now is basically taking that fructose out other fruit and boiling it down, just like you take the sucrose out of the cane or a beet and make a sugar out of it. The same process, you take the fructose, so you're talking now about concentrating that sugar, which is predominantly fructose. And then can ingesting it. But instead of calling it high fructose corn syrup, we call it fruit sugar. But it's even higher in fructose. Jen Lumanlan 12:43 Yeah, okay. So thank you for that. Now, I think we have a clearer picture of what it is and where it comes from. And so now let's go into what effect that has on the body. And you've mentioned a couple of ways, and I want to dig into some of those. One of the studies that you looked at, had volunteers consuming two different varieties of Dr. Pepper in a random order. One was made with regular sugar, which I think must have gotten direct from the manufacturer, the paper said because it's hard to find on the shelves, and one way with high fructose corn syrup, and testing the blood of the volunteers after a period of several hours and seeing how much fructose is circulating. And it seems fairly clear that there was more fructose circulating among the people who had consumed the high fructose corn syrup. And then I'm just trying to go from there to “Okay, so what does that mean?” Because the research that I was able to find was seemed really mixed in terms of whether diabetes precedes high blood pressure, whether high blood pressure precedes diabetes. And, of course, I'm not an expert on this topic, uric acid, I felt as though I was definitely over my head but the meta-analyses seem to indicate that the message that lower is always better is potentially not the complete picture. I wonder if you can help us understand what do you make of this body of work around the effects that high fructose corn syrup and fructose specifically has on our bodies? Dr. Goran 14:03 Yeah, well, actually, this is one situation where we do have pretty clear causative evidence because people have done detailed feeding studies in humans, not just a Dr. Pepper study, which by the way, didn't just show higher circulating glucose levels, but the high fructose corn syrup Dr. Pepper group had, I believe, increases in blood pressure and blood lipids. But that's just one study. Others studies, including Kimber stanhope from UC Davis, has done some of the best studies where she essentially does what I described before except not in pregnant people, takes adults locks them up for several weeks, and feeds them known foods, so it's a captive audience. So it's a bit like a rat in a cage, but that’s the closest we can do, and we know exactly what they're consuming in her studies in which she has fed bearing in ounce of fructose, including a dose-response study, where and she showed quite clearly that it's excess fructose in a dose-response manner, not excess glucose that causes things like fatty liver, dyslipidemia, uric acid build-up, which, by the way, where does that come from? That's a byproduct of how fructose is metabolized in the liver and can contribute to inflammation and blood pressure. So this is actually quite clear evidence now, and the link is clearest with those cardiovascular endpoints, and the inflammatory endpoints, and the fatty liver endpoints. Jen Lumanlan 15:42 Okay, perfect. So that's really helpful to understand. And then moving on from there, I was really surprised to get to the end of the book and find that so many of your recipes involve using dried fruit as sweeteners given that we now know that fruit is high in fructose, and no, we're not again saying people shouldn't eat fruit. But that dried fruit is a highly concentrated form of supply of fructose. Can you help us to see why you're recommending using dried fruit as a sweetener? When we see that fructose is something that we potentially should be consuming less off? Dr. Goran 16:13 Yeah, well, we want it to come up with creative strategies as alternatives to added sugar. And one way to do that is to kind of take advantage of the natural sweetness. And nothing in this world is perfect, because you're right, it's there's still sugar in those dried fruits. So let's say they’re not even dried, let's say, it was like a banana, so for example, our sugar-proof blueberry muffins have no added sugar, they're just sweetened with banana in the background. And I think there's advantages of that, despite the fact that you are getting some fructose from the sugars in the banana, you can also get all the fibers that are in the banana, all the phytonutrients that are in the banana, the taste of the banana, etc. So there's lots of other advantages that I would much prefer the natural sweetness and the natural flavor, versus the kind of potent sweetness that you get, just from added sugar. So those are the advantages. And then there are some foods that are higher in fructose, and some that are similar to sucrose. So for example, bananas are pretty even in terms of glucose and fructose, dates, we use a lot or high in fiber, for example. So those are just different ways. We do it to try to minimize the sugar load and get natural flavors and natural sweetness in there as well. Jen Lumanlan 17:41 Okay. All right, great. And so I know that one of the primary things that parents are concerned about when they think about how much sugar their children are eating is their children's behavior. And does their behavior change after they eat sugar? And I think you actually worked on a study where you were looking at the behavior of Latino and African American adolescents, and you gave them two different breakfasts one was a pop tart, a piece of string cheese, and orange flavored drink called Tampico. And the other had a whole wheat bagel with margarine and a glass of water with a fiber supplement. And you observe their behavior after they had this breakfast. And I wonder if you can just tell us about what you saw in that study? Dr. Goran 18:17 Yeah, so this was a study designed to test that question of how children respond acutely to different types of meals, like you just...Learning Membership
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Jump to highlights:We've been in a liminal space for the last 15 months or so, since COVID shutdowns. (The word 'liminal' comes from the Latin root limen, meaning threshold). It’s a place where a certain part of our lives has come to an end but the next thing hasn’t yet begun, so we’re in a transitional state.
We're finally starting to see the end of this liminal state but before we can fully emerge into the new world, we need to ask ourselves: what do we want that world to be like?
Do we want to go back to what it was before?
Because the world we had before wasn't working for a lot of parents. We were constantly rushing our children around from one activity to the next, maybe also trying to balance a career at the same time, attending thirty kids' birthday parties a year and just feeling completely spent, most of the time.
If we don't take the time to think about what we want life to be like when we reopen, chances are it'll look pretty much like it used to. And that can seem safe! It's always safer and easier to go back to what we know, rather than forward to what is unknown and scary.
What would something different even look like?
Maybe we would have fewer friends, whom we know much better.
Maybe we would do fewer activities, and spend a bit more time being, rather than always doing.
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Jen Lumanlan 00:03
Hi, I’m Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives. But it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research on principles of respectful parenting. If you’d like to be notified when new episodes are released, and get a FREE Guide called 13 Reasons Why Your Child Won’t listen To You and What To Do About Each One, just head on over to your YourParentingMojo.com/SUBSCRIBE. ou can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you’ll join us.
Jen Lumanlan 00:54
Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today I want to do what feels a bit like going out on a limb and connect some ideas across the podcast episodes and some reading I've been doing and some thinking and some work I've been doing outside of these episodes as well to ask: Where are we going? Not just where am I going? Or where's the podcast going? But since today is Mother's Day in the US, although I know it has passed in many other places where it's celebrated. Where are we as mothers and more broadly, we as parents going? And I think I'm going to call this episode The Mother's Day Momifesto which really did seem revolutionary when I thought about it in the shower this morning. After all, how can I call something about mom's a manifesto. But now I google it, I see that I'm not the first one to think about it. But anyway, I think the idea stands and run with it.
Jen Lumanlan 01:42
I think it's time to look at this idea of where we're going right now is because we're in something of a liminal space. The word liminal comes from the Latin root, lemon meaning threshold, it's a place where a certain part of our lives has come to an end. But the next thing hasn't begun yet. So we're in something of a transitional state. And in a way, we've been in a liminal space for over a year now, once COVID shutdown started, life changed pretty dramatically. For a lot of people, the old way of life had ended. And for most of us, it was very much against our will. And now we're entering a new phase of the liminal space where mass vaccinations are underway in many countries, although vaccination rates within countries of high wealth as well as across countries still show that life isn't valued equally, and that Whiteness and money are associated with higher vaccination rates. Suddenly we can see that there may be some light at the end of the tunnel, and that we're coming to the end of this liminal space, and we're coming into what's next.
Jen Lumanlan 02:40
But what is next, the natural tendency is very often to go back to what we had before. And I see this play out in protest to reopen schools. Yes, having schools closed for such a long period of time has been incredibly difficult for a lot of people, and most of all, for people who have no choice but to leave the house to work every day. But in all the protests, where I've seen mostly affluent parents and children campaigning to reopen schools, what I haven't seen is any discussion of what we want to reopen.
Jen Lumanlan 03:07
Because let's face it, schools were not working very well for the vast majority of children before COVID. Even if we accept that standardized tests are acceptable measure of achievement, we can see the average scores in reading and math hovers somewhere between 250 and 300. On a scale of 0 to 500 points, that's between basic and proficient. In other words, on average, in the richest country in the world, our average student performance is somewhat less than what we consider to be average performance, and far below anything approaching superior performance. And as we all know, huge discrepancies in school funding that's driven by using property tax as the main source of income for schools means that children in some schools are doing quite well at passing standardized tests while others are essentially not learning anything at all.
Jen Lumanlan 03:55
I'm not seeing any discussion about whether we want to keep using standardized tests as a measure of our children's learning or what steps we want to take to fund schools more equitably, or to completely reimagine what school looks like. So it's actually a welcoming place for all children and all parents, and not something that creates and perpetuates ongoing trauma, while socializing children to participate in a system governed by White supremacy. And if you need more information, and full references on that, I encourage you to check out Episode 117 on school socialization.
Jen Lumanlan 04:27
I'm using school reopenings as an example here, because it's one we can see playing out in the news, because the conversations I'm not seeing at all are about what we want parenting and specifically mothering to be like as we move into our new beginning.
Jen Lumanlan 04:42
Because if we're really honest, parenting and mothering, were not working for us before the pandemic either. We were probably spending a lot of time rushing around trying to get up early in the morning so we can get a tiny bit of exercise in and realizing we've failed again as our child wakes us up and suddenly we're scrambling to get ourselves ready for our day. Get some kind of food into our children teeth brushed clothes on out the door and time for daycare or preschool drop off, get us to the train on time to work sort out somebody else's problems for eight hours rush back to meet the precise train that we need. sort of hoping it'll be late because we left the office a minute late, so we might not make it if it isn't. But also knowing that if it is late, we might miss pick up time and get fined by the minute and incur the teachers weathering looks for disrespecting their time. And then we're rushing home trying to spend a few minutes or something that looks like quality time while somehow also getting dinner on the table, getting bath time done everyone in bed at a reasonable hour, before we just collapsed on the couch in front of Netflix. And then we got up and did the whole thing over again the next day. While feeling endlessly guilty about the tiny amount of time we were spending with our kids.
Jen Lumanlan 05:47
Or if we weren't working outside the home perhaps our days were spent in an endless monotony of trying to get the baby down for a nap while the older one has independent playtime. But just after we sit down to eat lunch, the baby wakes up needs help resettling, we barely get to finish our meal, the older ones getting restless and needs our attention again. And so every day is just passing in this whirlwind of activities that somehow needs to be done and yet are so mind numbing that all the days blur together. Because if we aren't working and we're taking time to be with the children, then that's our job, right? And we're supposed to be completely devoted to it and not need any help. And if we ask for help, then we feel guilty because we feel like we should be able to handle it all. Because isn't everyone else doing it?
Jen Lumanlan 06:29
And here's the real kicker. If we realize we can't handle it all and we're falling apart, we go to the doctor for medication. Now I'm not dismissing or shaming medication at all. I know many parents who have found it a lifesaver, literally. But what I want to point out is that at no time in the process of falling apart and going to the doctor and getting medication, do we ever question that there's something wrong with the system rather than with us? Right now, our system says if we can't cope, the problem must be in us. My point is that when the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells us almost 18% of women in the US have taken antidepressants in the past 30 days when they were surveyed between 2015 - 2018, 86% of women aged 40 to 44. Being mothers, there are a massive number of mothers who are taking antidepressants to cope with the everyday experience of being a mother in our society. And these antidepressant usage is not spread evenly across all mothers. If we can assume that a similar proportion of mothers are taking antidepressants compared to all women, more than 22% of White women are using them compared to 10% of Black women 9% of Latino women and just over 3% of Asian American women. So there are probably a lot of cultural variables here with White women being more likely to have access to health care, and also a greater acceptance and of intolerance for medication as a solution to what seemed to be melt mental illness in the White community.
Jen Lumanlan 07:55
But overall, there seems to be between 10 to 20% of women in the US who are so overwhelmed with life that they seek medical help. And my guess is there is a far greater proportion who don't seek medical help but are either depressed at a subclinical level, or who have simply accepted that this is the way life is and that if something doesn't feel right to them, it must just be that they need to cope better, planned better, hold it together better. And not that there's something wrong with the system they're trying to function within.
Jen Lumanlan 08:27
What does it look like when we're in this state? Well, obviously, it looks different for different people, but it can look like feeling frazzled, like our brain is always turned on. Like we don't know how to shut it off. So maybe we need sleeping pills to turn our brains off at night and then coffee to wake it up again in the morning.
Jen Lumanlan 08:43
It can also look like control. So much of our lives seem outside of our control, not least of which is our child's behavior, which very much looks like a black box. A lot of the time. We input something in one side that was completely innocuous yesterday, and today output screaming and hitting. When our child's behavior seems out of our control, we try to control it more.
Jen Lumanlan 09:02
When our partner doesn't do things like feeding the toddler or loading the dishwasher or planning a vacation the way we would do it. We just say Oh, nevermind, I'll do it. I was talking with Nicole who's in my parenting membership in an interview that was published on the podcast a couple weeks ago and she said she clearly remembered realizing something needed to change when she found herself yelling at her husband from the other room when he was changing the baby's diaper saying you're doing it wrong.
Jen Lumanlan 09:28
We also try to control our bodies in a variety of ways. We pay excessive attention to what we eat. We try to control the shapes of our bodies. I can't remember or find the original source but I remember reading something along the lines of if White women spent as much time thinking about racism as they do about being thin the world would be a very different place. We're also told to control our bodies in a variety of ways. Breastfeeding has benefits for our baby of course, but one big reason to do it is because it will help you get your body back. If our bodies don't fit in this tightly prescribed box of height, weight, corvinus lack of lumpiness, muscularity, hairlessness and color. Then we're sold a host of lotions, potions, workout regimens, weight loss pills, diets, makeup, hair removal products to make them fit in that box. I'd venture to guess that not many of us spend hours each week managing our bodies to fit into this box because we enjoy it. We do it because we're expected to do it, or we risk social ridicule and ostracism if we don't.
Jen Lumanlan 10:29
The problem with all of this is it becomes so baked into us that we lose sight of where we end and where social expectations begin. So just as a tiny example, I shaved my legs. I like how smooth they feel I after I do it. I also remember being ridiculed by the kids at school for not shaving my legs, because my stepmother refused to buy razors for me and my sister and my stepsister. And my parents tightly controlled our access to money so that we couldn't buy our own. And for people using my stepbrothers razor, used to blunt it pretty fast. So there was this humiliation of knowing that we weren't supported at home, and the shame that we were getting at school for not toeing the line of femininity standards. And of course, all the men I've ever dated have just assumed that I would shave my legs and have made fun of women who don't. And so yes, I do like how my legs are smooth after I shave them. But how much of this is me and how much of it is pressure from outside?.
Jen Lumanlan 11:20
And another example a parent in my membership, whom I was coaching recently had a revelation during our session. She's actually in my Supporting Your Child's Learning membership and we were having a coaching session, because she'd been having trouble getting started with the material. She was noticing that the content was really well aligned with her values of how children learn, which is very child LED, but she was finding herself gravitating towards something that she'd signed up for it that would send her daily emails telling her what to do to engage her child. And those activities can be fun when they happen to line up with a child's interest. So they're because they're going out to hundreds or thousands of parents, they will only be ever a small number of children who are actually interested in the topic of that day.
Jen Lumanlan 11:59
But the parent was telling me that she felt drawn towards those emails because she thought she needed the structure they provided. During our console, she had a huge aha moment. She has a master's degree. So she says she was in school from the time she was four until she was 24 without stopping. And she realized that this discomfort around lack of structure might not actually be the central part of her that she had assumed it was, but something that school had ingrained in her. She was still processing that thought as we finished the call,...
Why do we yell at our children - even when we know we shouldn't?
Why isn't just knowing what to do enough to actually interact with our children in a way that aligns with our values?
For many of us, the reason we struggle to actually implement the ideas we know we want to use is because we've experienced trauma in our lives. This may be the overt kind that we can objectively say was traumatic (divorce, abuse, death among close family members...), or it may simply be the additive effect of having our needs disregarded over and over again by the people who were supposed to protect us.
These experiences cause us to feel 'triggered' by our children's behavior - because their mess and lack of manners and resistance remind us subconsciously of the ways that we were punished as children for doing very similar things. These feelings don't just show up in our brains, they also have deep connections to our bodies (in spite of the Western idea that the body and brain are essentially separate!).
If we don't decide to take a different path and learn new tools to enable us to respond effectively to our child rather than reacting in the heat of the moment, and because our physical experience is so central to how this trauma shows up in our daily lives, we also need to understand and process this trauma through our bodies.
If you need help understanding the source of your triggered feelings and learning new ways to navigate them so you can feel triggered less often, my popular and highly effective Taming Your Triggers workshop will be open soon. Sliding scale pricing will be available, and the community will meet on a platform that isn't Facebook! Join the waitlist now. Click the banner to learn more.
Jump to highlights:
Other episodes mentioned:
My guest for this episode is life coach and reparenting expert Xavier Dagba, who is here to discuss the topic of boundaries in parenting.
We don't tend to learn much about having boundaries when we're young, because our culture teaches that children shouldn't really need or have them (and those of us who are using respectful parenting approaches are working against the tide here). This then translates to us not knowing how to set boundaries as adults, and feeling 'walked all over' - without fully understanding why, or what to do about it.
We also talk about the limit between boundaries and limits, an important distinction as we interact with our children.
If you need more support in setting limits that your child will respect (and using far fewer of them than you might ever have thought possible - while still having your boundaries respected!), sign up now for the self-guided Setting Loving (& Effective!) Limits for just $7. Click the banner to learn more.
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk, M.D.Xavier's websiteFollow Xavier on Instagram
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[accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"]
Jen 00:02
Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us.
Jen 00:59
Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're going to talk with a guest about a topic that I've been thinking about a lot lately, which is on setting limits and boundaries. We'll talk about the difference between a limit and a boundary. Because this has really profound implications for our parenting. We tend to think of limits as something that brings more control, and we want to have control. So, we want to have those in place so we can feel like we're on top of this parenting thing. But for some reason, we tend to be really sloppy in our boundaries. We have a hard time accepting that we're even worthy of setting boundaries, never mind holding them. So, we're going to talk through this today with my guest, Xavier Dagba who's a life coach who focuses specifically on these kinds of issues.
Jen 01:40
But before we get to that, I wanted to let you know about a free one week Setting Loving and Effective Limits Workshop that I'm running starting on Monday, December 7, I actually normally sell a version of this workshop for five bucks, and you have to work through the content by yourself. But this is a rare opportunity to do it not only for free, but to get my support while you're at it. In the workshop, we're going to come at this topic from a bit of a different perspective than many of the conversations I see about it. We'll ask yourselves, what if things seem a little out of control at the moment not because we don't have enough limits, but because we have too many? And if that's the case, how can we decide which ones you maybe don't need anymore? And how can we know that our kids weren't run riot or walk all over us if we don't have as many limits in place? Because there are tools that can make this so it doesn't happen and they aren't super difficult to use, but most parents I work with have a bit of a hard time getting up and running with them because they're just so different from the way that we might have parented in the past.
Jen 02:35
When we set a limit, we're holding the power ourselves. But we're also holding all of the responsibility. We aren't allowing our children the freedom to make their own decisions and have their own ideas about things that might work, even though while they're young, they will still need our help refining these. We're not talking about abandoning all limits entirely, we're still going to prevent our two-year-old from crossing the street by themselves, and we're not having complete free for all in our home. But far more often than you might think possible in this moment, right now, our children are actually willing and very able to work with us to find solutions to the kinds of problems that currently seem to require us to set limits. The key is to know how to identify those situations and navigate through them in the moment, when it seems like the only thing you can do is set a limit.
Jen 03:19
It's almost paradoxical that the more we give up needing to have a sense of control, the more we invite our child's cooperation, and the more willing they become to work with us. And I've seen this happen in the children who are the most difficult and the most hard to reach and the ones who seem like they just need us to control their environment. And when we instead connect with them, and we asked for their ideas on how to solve the problem we're having in our relationship, they're actually quite able to do this. They want to work with us. They don't like being antagonistic and difficult and having so many negative interactions with us. They crave our love and positive attention and the more we can set up our environment to invite them to be successful, rather than planning for them to fail, the better off our child will be and the less stressed we will be as well.
Jen 04:01
So, if this sounds like something you can use in your life, head on over to YourParentingMojo.com/limits and sign up. It's completely free and we'll start together on Monday, December 7. Once again, that's YourParentingMojo.com/limits.
Jen 04:15
Hello, and welcome to this episode of Sharing Your Parenting Mojo. I'm here today with Xavier Dagba, who is a life coach and an incredible all-around human being. Welcome, Xavier! It's so great to have you here.
Xavier 04:27
Well, thank you. Now, I have to live up to that expectation.
Jen 04:33
I'm sure you'll be fine. I wonder if you could tell us just a little bit about yourself and the topic that we're here to discuss today, which is kind of on setting limits and boundaries and how those things fit into our lives.
Xavier 04:45
Yeah, this is really interesting. And a little bit about myself. Right now, I'm a life coach. And before doing this, I've been a wellness coach, I've been a PhD student not in psychology or anything like that but in economics. This was over seven years ago, and I had the wakeup call moment where I was invited, I had that impulse for several years to just let go of the field of statistics economics to dive into something that would help people even more, but I was resisting it. So, in 2013, I had that huge awakening of like, this is not really where I want to be in my life, this is really not what I want to do with my life. And I dropped out. And then it began a long cycle of searching for something new, you know. Really what I wanted to do, how I wanted to help people, [I] began taking courses and classes and, you know, certifications and learning as much as I could to get to a place where I feel like, okay, I can really help people shift in their lives
Xavier 05:49
And the journey of beginning to set boundaries was, you know, really important for me, because when I decided to let go of the PhD career, or perspective of becoming a professor in economics, I got a lot of backlash. You know, from my family, I live in Canada now, but most of my family still lives in Africa. And they saw it as a huge, huge betrayal. And even for myself, it felt like betrayal to a part of myself, because I had, you know, you work hard to get a scholarship for a PhD, you really work hard to get there.
Xavier 06:24
You know, and then at some point, you just like this, isn't it? This doesn't make me happy, and I let that go. So, there was that divide inside. And also, I got to a place for the first time in my life, I was the biggest deception, the biggest disappointment to my parents. Now, which was new to me. So, learning how to navigate that learning how to be like, "Okay, I need to rebuild myself, and I need to rebuild myself without their approval." This is how this began, because I needed to create space between them and me, so that I could navigate that. So, this is how I started diving into this, I literally had to go. And this is not something that I am recommending to anybody. I went through a period of two and a half years without really talking to my family.
Jen 06:27
You do.
Jen 07:16
Yeah.
Xavier 07:17
You know, without having interactions with them. And I can arguably say that this is what I needed to kind of come back to a place where I have a secure footing about who I am. And if people ask me, was there a better way from where I stand right now? Then, I can say absolutely, yeah. And if I had known earlier how to say, how to speak my truth, that boundaries create limits, it wouldn't have happened. It wouldn't have been two and a half years. Maybe six months, you know?
Jen 07:50
Yeah. Oh, my goodness, it makes me think of when we're thinking about raising children. and they exhibit behaviors that we find really difficult. And it's so tempting to think, well, if they just changed the behavior, then things will be better. And, and if we can reframe that, and think you know what the child is doing the best they can with the tools that they have, just like you were doing the best that you could with the tools that you had, and maybe it wasn't the optimal path, but it got you through. And maybe we can look back and see, "Oh, yeah, there is a different way." And now we have this insight that we're going to - by the end of this call, we're going to have so much insight - that we are going to be able to maybe set limits, set boundaries in a different way than they were set with us and maybe that we've been setting them until now. So that we can have a different relationship with our children, and that they can have a different relationship with limits and boundaries than we have had. And they have had until now.
Xavier 08:44
I absolutely love that. And you know, that being into becoming a parent, it increased that. It amplified a desire to actually become better at communicating, period, because I was really bad. I wasn't the best communicator. Jen, the reason why I shut down communication with my family for several years. And communicating everything, you know, what I find when it comes to boundaries and limits, communicating everything, meaning, where you allow yourself to go truthfully, how much to allow people in your life, truthfully, as well, is really what we are learning through all of that. And this is really beautiful. And being able to reflect that to my children was a really great driving force, for meet those steps even more into this word.
Jen 09:34
Yeah. Okay. So, I wonder, can you help us understand because I think this is something I've only sort of really began to tease out more recently, the idea of the difference between a limit and a boundary. Can you tell us how you think about those things?
Xavier 09:46
How I think about these things is really interesting. And for everybody who listens to this, I'm inviting you to just take what resonates with what I'm going to say what really makes sense to you and see if it works in your own context, in your own life - is an invitation that I would have for you. Now, the way I see a limit, a limit is more like some a rule, it feels more like a rule that you're giving to others meaning here, this is how far you are allowed to go, this is what you are allowed to do in this setting here. So it feels more like there is a certain position of authority when it comes to setting limits, you know, and a good example would be in a family, when you are a parent, you will get to set the limit to how your house is working. You know, bedtime for the kids, that's the limit. You can say noise in the house, or the amount of like, screen time that you choose to give to people. So, there is that relationship with authority there, where you get to set the limit. And it's something that is not really discussed about it's like not really, to a certain degree, maybe not negotiated, because you are the person in authority, there is that authority aspect in the limit. And he doesn't necessarily, you know, the example of parent and kid is obvious. You know, but we also get to set limits with like, with the other relationship, but they will look more like some sort of rule that you would give to the person coming into your space. Like this is what you are allowed to do into this space. When we are interacting together, this is what you are allowed to do here. So, this is how I see a limit. And we could go into more example there.
Xavier 11:42
A boundary is really how far you are allowing yourself to go, the way I see it. You know how far you are allowing yourself to how much you're allowing yourself to show up in a specific situation. And a few examples of boundaries would be, for example, with family, and this is a huge one for me that I had to set for, you know, for a long time, I need to be given notice, if you're going to come home. I need to be given a notice, like a call at least three hours or even a day in advance. This is one day in town; I need a three-hour notice like I need to know that I need to prepare myself to receive you. You know so, and if that is not there, I reserved myself the choice to tell you it's no working. I'm not available. You know, so I'm not. Basically, it sounds like I won't necessarily be available for you if you do not give me notice before you come home. You know something like that. It's really you are declaring how far you willing to go. So that's an example of how I can bring it. And we can refine it even more and refine it even more. But I feel when it comes to limit and boundary there is a position of authority with the limit. It's like there is more authority there. And the boundary is more how far am I allowing myself [to] really go here?
Jen 13:11
Yeah, yeah, I love that distinction. And as you were talking through the limits that you set, I mean, it's so personal. All of this stuff is so personal. We don't set a limit on bedtime for my daughter. And I mean, we gave up on that when she was I don't know, two and a half or three or something. And she tells us when she's tired and when she's ready for bed. And so many parents have struggles with, you know, how do I get my kid to stay in bed at bedtime? And well if there is no limit around that you don't have that struggle. And so yeah, I think limits can invite struggles. And so when we're thinking about limits and parenting, I think one of the easiest things to do that seems so counterintuitive, is we feel like we need the sense of control and limits are going to give us that control that we feel that we need, when actually, if we can see our way to relaxing some of those limits to relaxing that sense of control, then all of a sudden, things get easier. And we just don't have fights over bedtime over you know, you need to stay in your room, you need to do X, it's bedtime it needs to happen now, we have stories at a set time. And that sort of part is prescribed and then she can have quiet time for as long as she likes. Sometimes she says right after story time and ready for bed now. And she did that last night and she was up at 630 this morning. Other times she has energy, and she wants to be up until 10. And that's fine that she sleeps in later the next day. And so, the limit there by making that limit go away, we just I mean really so much stress [has been removed] from our own lives. So, it's so personal about where we decide to set these limits on things because clearly you set limits in a different way than I do even.
Xavier 14:47
Absolutely. And on that point, I just want to say, you know, what's the most important thing for you, you know, as a parent, and you mentioned something that's really important to hear. Not only you having the peace of not stressing out about imposing the limit, but also, when you try to impose a limit, the other person still gets to challenge the limit or not.
Jen 15:11
They do.
Xavier 15:12
You know, even if it's the child. So, the other person gets to challenge your limit or no. So, what matters the most to you? Is it winning? At that authority battle, or is it really having a situation where the child understands that, okay, my needs are taken into consideration here, you know, my energy is taken into consideration here, also, that I don't get frustrated, get taken into consideration here. And it might change depending on the context. Now, we talked about going the bed, you know, like, apply it to something else to another role in your life. What really matters here? What happened in the past when you try to set the limit? What has been the response? Because, arguably, you know, when we parent, the child needs quite a bit of structure. But what is the cost of the structure has well, please, really important to get clear, the cost for you, you know, what is it
In this Sharing Your Parenting Mojo episode I talk with Kira Dorrian and Deana Thayer of Future Focused Parenting, who host the Raising Adults podcast. The parents of seven children between them, including a set of twins and five in a blended family, Kira and Deana know their way around sibling squabbles.
We discuss ways to stop being the person who always has to moderate every disagreement and instead equip our children with the skills they need to find solutions to their own problems.
Jump to highlights:
(02:37) Laying the foundation of possible sibling relationships by Daena Thayer.
(04:35) Sibling relationship is the first peer relationship by Kira Dorrian. (05:53) How to prepare your kids for sibling rivalry? (12:02) Problem solving with children. (15:28) Teaching your child active listening. (20:01) Doing what’s best, not the easiest. (23:23) Problem solving in school. (25:55) How to deal with conflict as children grow older. (30:52) Social exclusion in schools and the calendar of character traits.If you’ve been a parent for a while, or maybe even if you haven’t, you probably saw an article on Holding Space making the rounds of online communities a few years ago. In the article the author, Heather Plett, describes how she and her siblings were able to hold space for their dying mother in her final days because a palliative care nurse held space for them.
The article outlined some principles of holding space, and I think it really resonated with a lot of people – possibly because so many of us wish we had been held in that way, and we find ourselves trying to hold space for others in that way without a lot of guidance or support.
I kept that article in the back of my mind, and last year I took Heather’s 9-month in-depth course on holding space, and she’s just released a book called The art of holding space: A practice of love, liberation, and leadership. In this episode we discuss what it means to hold space for others as parents, and how to raise our children to be able to hold space for others. Links mentioned in the episode The Art of Holding Space: A Practice of Love, Liberation, and Leadership (Affiliate link). The Centre for Holding Space Website [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:03 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us. Jen 00:59 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. If you've been a parent for a while, or maybe even if you haven't, you probably saw an article on holding space making the rounds of online communities a few years ago. In the article the author Heather Plett describes the death of her mother and how she and her siblings were able to hold space for her mother, because a palliative care nurse was holding space for them. The article outlines some principles of holding space. And I think it really resonated with a lot of people possibly because so many of us wish that we had been held in the way that in that way. And we find ourselves trying to hold space for others in that way without a lot of guidance and support. Jen 01:38 And so, I kept that article in the back of my mind. And then last year, I took Heather's nine-month in depth course on holding space. And she's just released a book called The Art of Holding Space: A Practice of Love, Liberation and Leadership that she's here with us to discuss today. Welcome, Heather. Heather 01:52 Thank you, Jen. It's good to be here. Jen 01:55 And we should mention we were just chatting beforehand. Heather was mentioning her voice is a little raspy today because she's in the middle of recording the book for the audio edition. So that should hopefully be available very soon. And I also just want to mention before we get started that we may mentioned today, some topics that might be difficult for some people to listen to. These could include the topics of suicide and stillbirth. And so, we're not going to delve deeply into them. But if you're in a place where you would find hearing about these topics, any more than I just mentioned them any disturbing to you in any way, you might want to consider listening at a time when you feel well resourced, or perhaps with a friend. Jen 02:29 So that said, Heather, I wonder if you could start by getting us on the same page, and maybe just helping us to understand what does it mean to hold space for someone? Heather 02:38 Well, holding space is really what we do when we show up for somebody without trying to control the outcome of whatever they're going through, without placing our judgement on them or projecting our own narrative on them. It's really trying to hold them in a way that is fully supportive of the journey that they're going on and giving them the autonomy to be going through their own journey. Jen 03:01 Okay, and so you describe that as structure, kind of three nested bowls, right? Can you help us to picture those bowls and what that's made of? Heather 03:10 Sure. So, I've been evolving this concept of being the bowl for people and being the bowl is really about supporting somebody through their liminal space, I talk a lot about liminal space as the journey they're going through. And they're in transformation, really, between some old story and a new story. And in the middle of that they need some kind of containment, some support, as they kind of deconstruct their old narrative, and get ready to evolve into the new narrative. And so, the bowl really evolved as the primary metaphor kind of for explaining that. And I've developed this three-layered bowl, initially, it was just one layer, but with time, and the more I taught it, I recognize them, some other qualities were needed. So, in the three layers, and the inside is what you're offering to the person, you're holding space, and there's a number of qualities there. And then what guides you your kind of internal guidance system of what's guiding how you hold space. And then what supports you is the outer layer of the bowl. Jen 04:10 Okay, and what are some of the really key characteristics of maybe we'll start with the internal layer, and then move to the external layers as we continue the conversation. And so, what are some of those key characteristics of that inner layer? Heather 04:22 Well, some of those things are compassion and connection is really offering you know, love and compassion to the other person. There's also selective guidance. And I use the qualifier selective in front of some of these quite intentionally because I want to really help people understand that it's, it's not giving them tons of guidance, but it's being using your discernment to pick only the little pieces of guidance that they need. You mentioned the palliative care nurse, for example. And she came with a little bit of guidance to help us understand the process of mum's dying really is what we were supporting. And she just gave us you know, one or two handouts kind of and a little bit of information, she didn't walk in with a whole textbook full of guidance on what to expect when a person's dying because that would have overwhelmed us. Heather 05:10 And then there's also things like selective nonjudgement. And there's another one where I added the word selective in front of. Initially, I was talking about nonjudgement but then I realized there are times when we do need to use our judgement, we need some discernment. For example, if someone comes to us and tells us they've been breaking the law, well, we need a little bit of judgement to support them and making a wise decision to turn themselves into authorities or make reparations for whatever they've done. So, and that's where we come to kind of the middle layer of the bowl. The middle layer is where we're discernment lies, making those good decisions, and intuition using our intuition to sense what's needed in that moment. Jen 05:52 Okay. And I was just thinking, as you're talking about the idea of offering some support, but not everything that you know about a subject. I think that's so critical in so many aspects of relationships, and even teaching that I've always remembered one of the most effective lectures I ever attended in my undergrad career was it, it was a guest lecture by someone who was talking about schistosomiasis disease, that's, I remember the basics of it. But it was, you know, passed on to people through a worm infection. And he kind of gave us just the amount that we needed to know. And then the Q&A at the end, it became clear that the depth of his knowledge on this topic was incredible. And he had so deliberately curated exactly what we needed to know and didn't attempt to tell us 'Well, everything I know' about schistosomiasis. And it seems as though that kind of resonates with your experience with the palliative care nurse, and she knew so much. Heather 06:48 Absolutely Jen 06:48 And she also knew what you needed. Heather 06:49 Yeah, very much so. And this is where really, the practice, I talk a lot of in my book, and in my work about learning to hold space for yourself, because when we're in that position of holding space for another person, we have to hold ourselves back, sometimes we have to, you know, soothe ourselves so that we won't project our own stuff on to the other person. And you know, and that requires holding back some of our wisdom, because we may know really, really well we've been through the situation they're in, etc. But that's not what they need at that moment. Because if I dump all this knowledge on them, there's a good chance they'll feel a little bit of shame for not knowing as much as we do, they'll feel that you're superior to them or whatever, it's going to turn into a less helpful situation for that person. So like you say, just offering and even sometimes asking what they need, like telling them I do you know, I have some experience in this, would you like to hear from my experience, or just holding back and letting them have their emotional experience first and then saying, you know, once you're ready for it, let's talk a little bit more, I have a few things I'd love to share with you. Heather 07:58 So, it's using that quality of discernment and caution around not coming in with a dump truck full of knowledge and dumping it on. Jen 08:06 Right. And so, I want to get back to something that you mentioned very early on in that definition. And that's the concept of liminal space, which is really central to this. Can you just tease apart a little bit? What is liminal space? And what kinds of situations is that refer to? Heather 08:23 Yeah, so liminal space, it comes from anthropology and in anthropology, there's a term "Limin" which means the space in between. And really what they, the way they started using this term, and defining it was when they were researching cultures, where they would have rituals around some transition points in a person's life. For example, if somebody was coming of age, a young person was emerging into adulthood, they were researching these rituals at these transition points. And notice the threshold ritual was really important part of the ritual was the space between the old story and the new story. So it wasn't just a crossing directly to the new story, that the ritual would include them going into the woods for a vision quest, for example, or going away for some silent time or there was something that marks that time, because there really is this space of emptiness in between what once was and what will be. And the metaphor that I've really adopted for this is the process of the caterpillar turning into the butterfly, because in between, it doesn't go directly from caterpillar to butterfly, it has to go through this chrysalis stage, which is a really, it deconstructs into this messy, this gel apparently inside the chrysalis. And that's kind of reminiscent of what we do when we are transitioning and that it's very vast what this can imply to. It could be when your children are moving away from home or it could be when you're giving birth or changing a job or getting a divorce or there's so many different liminal spaces. I think right now we're kind of globally in this liminal space that the pandemic has kind of thrust on us. We're in between, you know, what we used to know as reality and what we don't yet know and understand. Jen 10:13 Yeah. And just the breadth of the kinds of circumstances you just described. I mean, this is something that's prevalent throughout our lives. And I was really surprised to see that you quoted in the book and surprised and interested, I guess, that you quoted Franciscan friar and author Richard Rohr, and he described liminal space, I'm going to read his quote, "When you've left the tried and true, but have not yet been able to replace it with anything else. It's when you are finally out of the way. It's when you are between your old comfort zone and any possible new answer. It is no fun." And it's that last part, it is no fun. I was so struck by that because change is the one constant thing in our lives. It's the only thing that we can be sure of. And yet we get so hung up on this search for stability in the search for holding things comfortable and stable. And it's just impossible to do. And I'm wondering, why haven't we developed better skills for dealing with liminal spaces? And I guess implicit in that is the question, why do so many of us learn about this concept through your viral blog posts? And not because this is something that is just handed down to us as a part of our culture? Heather 11:23 That's a really good question. And I wish I knew a succinct answer for it. I think there's a lot of layers, I think that there's this human nature to just want things cleaned up and not messy. And so, we look for the cleaned-up version of our lives we've created it's really cultural, though, too, especially in Western cultures, I find. I've travelled a fair bit in more developing countries where they were their messiness upfront. Like they don't hide it the way that we do. But we've developed this cultural value around perfectionism around you know, not showing our messes. We don't invite people into our homes when they're messy, we clean up our front yards, I was wrestling this weekend, for example, with my environmentalist daughter wants me to leave the leaves on the grass because it's more environmentally friendly. But I'm noticing my next two neighbors have both cleaned theirs, raked theirs clean... Jen 12:17 Oh, cause the line. Heather 12:19 Exactly, I'm wrestling with being the messy yard. And this is the cultural value that we have about being, you know, showing our best front. And I think there's many layers to that, I think some of it is our capitalist culture, we can always buy more comfort, we can always buy more ease, we can buy things to replace the broken things in our lives. And, you know, to some degree, capitalism in the marketing system around it has helped foster that in our culture, because we always need to buy more to replace things and to fill our void, etc. We're not supposed to have uncomfortable lives, we're supposed to buy the newest and most comfortable and, you know, etc. thing and so. So, there's so many layers of complexity. And when I think about even in our classrooms in our school, like, when our kids are in high school, we're pressuring them, what are they going to be when they grow up? Jen 13:12 In high school? My daughter is getting questions and she's six. Heather 13:16 They're supposed to have their lives planned out for them. Yeah, like, yeah, it's really kind of ridiculous that we're not talking to them at that stage, about the complexities of life and about how they're going to have to learn to be resilient and weather the storms, and it's not just going to be an easy path to some magical career and this, you know, happy family. Jen 13:38 Yeah. And it just a couple of points to pull out further and what you said, I'm just thinking of funerals in other countries where, I mean, people are just exposing the rawness of their soul. And funerals here in western countries. I mean, it's very buttoned up and I might escape and maybe there would be a little bit of crying, but you got to keep it. You got to keep that locked down, right? Heather 14:02 Yeah, no. And we, with my parents have passed, and we tried to do things a little bit counterculturally, actually. And you refer to the palliative care nurse who was there supporting us with mom dying. And one of the things she said, for example, is that you can keep your mom's body in the home as long as you want. You don't have to call the funeral home right away. And it's funny, but that was a surprise to us. Like we just had this assumption that you got to clean up the body right away. And we've built those kinds of, and so we didn't call right away. We kept her body there and let her like her sister and significant family members come and sit with her before we called the funeral home and also with my dad, when he passed, my brother really wanted to be the one to cover the coffin with the dirt shoveled the dirt onto the coffin. And for the rest of us, it felt, oh, that's not something the family should be doing. You know, there's this just this weird cultural, and yet we chose to do it and it turned out to be really, really meaningful practice as a family to do this. So, yeah, we have to mess with convention sometimes to be in the mess of the complexity of life. Jen 15:10 Yeah. And what you said about your mom and you don't have to call a funeral home right away reminded me of when my daughter was born. And you know, the accepted way is okay, immediately after she's born, she gets whisked away and weighed and checks and all the rest of it. And it was the doula that we hired that said, you know what, you don't have to do that you can request some time before that is done. And so, we did that. And that was such a special memory to me of that period of time when I mean, that's an incredibly profound liminal space in many women's lives. Heather 15:39 Yeah. Jen 15:41 And then just, we've talked a little bit about death and I also want to make the point that liminal spaces can happen with changes that we might traditionally think to be positive as well like a new job that you've hoped for over a long period of time. And maybe it puts you in a different role related to people in a different way. And that changes how they see you and how you see them and what you're doing. And it seems as though that's a...Self-Compassion for Parents: Nurture Your Child by Caring for Yourself (Affiliate link).
Other episodes related to this topic: Parental Burn-Out No Self, No Problem Helping children to develop compassion Patriarchy is perpetuated through parenting Mindfulness tools with Mindful Mama Hunter Clarke-Fields Some key points from the interview: (04:08) Many of us, present company included, we're not raised to be kind to ourselves. (10:47) Mindful self-compassion acknowledges that we need to start with mindfulness. (I've been teaching this course for over a decade, and I've seen that) a lot of people just can't start with compassion because it's foreign for most of us to treat ourselves kindly. (53:59) Allow yourself to rest for a moment feeling that you have distance from the storm, some space from the turbulence to recognize that you are not the storm. (paraphrased) (59:03) It's such a common misconception about mindfulness that you have to sit still and not think about anything. And, you know, people are relieved to know that [mindfulness] is not about stopping our thoughts. It's really about finding a different relationship with our thoughts. [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:03 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives, but it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about, subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us. Jen 01:00 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. In this episode, we're going to draw threads together from across a number of recent episodes. Most obviously it picks up on our interview with Dr. Moira Mikolajczak where we discuss parental burnout. After that episode concluded Dr. Mikolajczak and I emailed a bit about tools that could potentially help parents, and the primary one that she found useful was the idea of self-compassion. And that's what we're going to discuss today. This topic also picks up on our conversation with Dr. Chris Niebauer about the stories that our left brain tells us by giving us some concrete strategies on how to do that. And it builds on a conversation we had about three years ago with Dr. Brendan Ozawa-de Silva on the topic of compassion. We also touch on issues related to patriarchy and go deeper into some of the mindfulness tools that Hunter Clark-Fields shared with us recently. Jen 01:50 And here to do all of this with us is Dr. Susan Pollak, who is a psychologist in private practice in Cambridge, Massachusetts. She is a longtime student of meditation and yoga and has been integrating the practices of meditation into psychotherapy since the 1980s. Dr. Pollack is cofounder and teacher at the Center for Mindfulness and Compassion at Harvard Medical School and Cambridge Health Alliance, and has just stepped down as President of the Institute for Meditation and Psychotherapy, a position that she held since 2010. She also writes regularly for Psychology Today on the topic of integrating mindfulness into daily life. Welcome, Dr. Pollack. Dr. Pollak 02:24 Thanks, Jen. It's a pleasure to be with you. Jen 02:28 So, we're going to talk a lot about your book. Because it's on the topic of Self-Compassion for Parents. And one thing that I really liked as I was reading through your book, is the idea that it isn't a manual for self-compassion. It doesn't teach you step by step what self-compassion is, and then how to apply it. I loved what Dr. Chris Germer said in your foreword and he said, I'm going to quote, "The book connects with the direct experience of parenting through detailed examples, personal anecdotes, and elegant exercises to transform parenting struggles through the tools of mindfulness and self-compassion." So that said, we're definitely going to be digging into some more of those things for as we go today, but I'm wondering if we could start by having you help us to understand what is compassion. And from there, what is self-compassion, and also this idea of mindful self-compassion that I know is really important to your work? Dr. Pollak 03:21 Okay, and let me first just respond to your kind words, because my feeling is, there's no recipe for parenting. And I know you're a parent. I am a parent of two kids. And as of just a week ago, a grandmother, Jen 03:39 Congratulations! Dr. Pollak 03:40 Thanks! So, I think it's really important for your listeners to, to realize that one size doesn't fit all. Jen 03:49 Yeah. Dr. Pollak 03:50 You know, I'm not going to be able to give you a recipe for how to be the perfect, compassionate, mindful parent, you know, you have to figure out what works for you, and what works for your kids. Jen 04:07 Yeah. [caption id="attachment_6394" align="aligncenter" width="1024"] Many of us, present company included, we're not raised to be kind to ourselves.[/caption] Dr. Pollak 04:08 So that said, let me jump into just some really workable definitions. And let me tell you, I really don't like psychological jargon. So, let me speak in English. So, one way to understand compassion is to really look at the root of the word, which is Latin, and it means to suffer with. Okay, so that's kind of theoretical, what it means in real life, is to really see somebody and to connect with their pain, or the difficulty they're having. So self-compassion, and this is a pretty radical concept, is learning to be kind to yourself. Again, it's that simple. So many of us, present company included, we're not raised to be kind to ourselves. So, it can feel weird, awkward, foreign, like "What? Be kind to myself? No, no, I have to push myself. I have to drive myself. What are you talking about?" So, for me, that concept of being kind to myself felt foreign. And, again, an easy way to think about it is, when you're having a hard time, think about what you say to yourself. And I don't know if your inner language is like my inner language, but to be very self-disclosing. I used to say, "Oh, Susan, that was stupid." Or "Oh, Susan, you're an idiot." or "Oh, how could you have said that?" You know, "You've really blew that." So, it was this constant soundtrack of criticizing myself. Dr. Pollak 05:56 But think also, what you might say, if a friend told you that for someone you really cared about that she had done, or he had done something similar to what you did. And you probably wouldn't say to your friend, "Oh, John, that was so stupid. I can't imagine you said that. How could you have done that? What were you thinking? What is wrong with you? You are such a loser?" Well, I mean if you said that to a friend, you probably wouldn't have many friends. Okay, so we, we do know how to respond kindly. You would probably say, "Look, John, you know, you're human, we all screw up, you know, everyone is a parent..." Let me just kind of stick to the topic of parenting here. Everyone is a parent has really bad days, you know, that book that I've loved Alexander and that No Good, Terrible, Awful Day. I mean, we as parents have those terrible, no good awful days. But you know how nice it would be. If you could say to yourself, "Jen, that was just a really rough day, we all have it, it happens. You know, don't beat yourself up, that's not going to solve the problem. Let's move on here." Or even better with the child, okay, let's make a repair. You know, let's say sorry, gee, mommy really lost it. Or, you know, I used to say, with my kids, when I was having a hard time, "Oops, mommy hit the roof there." You know, let's take a time out or a time in to repair. Okay, so that's our definition of compassion. Jen 07:47 And actually, if I could pause just there for a second, as you were saying, I wasn't raised with this way of thinking. It made me realize none of us were. And it seems to me is it though it's, I mean, it's coming from this Protestant work ethic, right that if you work hard enough, you will be able to achieve and if you're not working hard enough, that's probably why you're not achieving. And so, the only thing to do is self-flagellate and work harder. Dr. Pollak 08:11 Exactly. And supposedly, I know, you're also interested in culture and cross culture, real issues, supposedly, in other countries. There isn't as much self-loathing and self-flagellation because I remember hearing the story, where the Dalai Lama's translator was asking, translating questions like, Okay, so what are we supposed to do if we hate ourselves? And he'd say, "What?" Jen 08:40 "What do you mean?" Dr. Pollak 08:41 What do you mean, if we hate ourselves, and the translator and the Dalai Lama went back and forth, back and forth. This is how the story is recounted, and he had the hardest time understanding why people would hate themselves, why there was such loathing. But I am with you both in terms of the Protestant work ethic and also patriarchy, like, yes, you know, you have to drive yourself, okay, you can't be lazy, you can't slack off. And I think that's where those, that inner critic comes from, like, Oh, you screwed up, you idiot. What is wrong with you? So anyway, just to touch on the importance with those three definitions. The other thing I want to draw on in terms of compassion, and this, I know you're a research geek as well. So, this will probably interest you. One of the pieces of research when they're looking at in fMRI brain scan of what happens with the brain on compassion is it seems to activate the motor neurons. So, compassion is tied to action. And I remember when I was writing the book, I tried to use this headline saying compassion is a verb, because it's active. And of course, the editor being an editor said, No, it's not. So anyway, so I'd let that go. But if we can think of compassion is active, you know, basically, how can you respond? How can you tune in to what that person might need or what that child might need? Or what you might need in the moment? That is really the essence of what a compassionate and self-compassionate response is. Jen 10:38 Okay. Dr. Pollak 10:39 Now do you still want a definition of mindfulness. Jen 10:42 That would be awesome. Yeah. And is, specifically the mindful self-compassion. Yeah. [caption id="attachment_6393" align="aligncenter" width="1024"] A lot of people just can't start with compassion. It's foreign, for most of us to treat ourselves kindly.[/caption] Dr. Pollak 10:47 Okay. So, what happened in terms of the mindful self-compassion, and I love to give credit where credit is due. Kristin Neff was really the first researcher to do research on compassion, in 2003, had begun to write a number of essays and articles, framing this new construct that she called self-compassion. My friend and colleague, Chris Grimmer, who wrote the foreword of the book. thought, "Whoa, this is really important." And also, I need this. And, you know, so many, we know, Neil. And they connected and put together this program. And I know you will have references to their books, and the eight-week course and their books on self-compassion. So mindful self-compassion, acknowledges that we need to start with mindfulness. And I've been teaching this course for over a decade, a lot of people just can't start with compassion, again, going back to what I was saying, in that it's foreign, for most of us to treat ourselves kindly. But it seems that if we start with the foundation of mindfulness, then people can be more open to compassion. And in fact, again, some of the research is now saying that one of the secret sauce of mindfulness seems to be this element of accepting, without judgement, warmly kindly accepting. So now let me segue into a definition I like, and this is very hands on. Okay, so again, I don't want it to be abstract. So, the easiest thing to do is just with me, raise your hand, if you like, and just wiggle your fingers. Okay, so mindfulness, very simply, is, knowing what you're doing at the moment. It's nothing, Woo Woo, it's nothing, you know, fanciful, it's nothing weird. It's just present moment awareness, with kindness without judgement. So, you're feeling your hand, you're not saying, "Oh, Jen, You're such an idiot." for you know, wiggling your fingers. Just say, "Okay, I'm sitting here, moving my hand, feeling my hand again, being present in the body." And we'll talk about that as well. without judgement. Jen 13:33 Yeah, so I'm not looking at my hands. And my hands are really big in the picture. Dr. Pollak 13:38 Oh, I don't have a manicure. Either. Something absurd. Jen 13:41 Never had that. But yeah, I've heard Joseph Goldstein explain, you know, what is mindfulness, this big topic, and he says, "Sit and know you're sitting." Dr. Pollak 13:52 Exactly. Exactly. It's that simple. Jen 13:55 Yeah. And and I think I saw in your book, actually a quote from Sharon Salzberg, that I really liked. It said, mindfulness doesn't depend on what is happening, but is about how we are related to what is happening. Dr. Pollak 14:06 Exactly, exactly. Jen 14:08 Yeah. Dr. Pollak 14:08 And I think that really says it all. And a lot of people keep coming back to the fact that it's not the external circumstances. It's really the inner experience of how we are dealing with what's happening to us. And as Joseph, let me just make a link between those two teachers, as Joseph Goldstein would say, what is the attitude in the mind? You know, is there resistance? Is there a version, you know, are you saying, Oh, poor me, or are you saying, Okay, this is what's happening? And he puts it wonderfully again, which is anything can happen to anyone, at any time. Jen 14:58 Mm hmm. Okay, so let's Maybe make this super concrete for parents, you talk in the book about diaper changing. Dr. Pollak 15:06 Yeah. Jen 15:06 Which is a task that most parents have done once or twice. There are some parents who managed to take a different path with it. But the majority of parents are doing a decent number of diaper changes for a period of some years. And you described a mindful diaper change. And anyone who's reading your book and knows anything about resources, infant educators, or RIE, well will read that description and they'll just think, you know, this has so many parallels to the idea of it's called wants something quality, time in RIE. It's the idea that even caregiving tasks, which typically, society trains us to, and we think of ourselves as things, we just need to get through them. And then we can do the fun stuff that the other side, you know, we can play with the baby. But actually, even these caregiving tasks, even if they seem unpleasant to us, they're still opportunities for connection. Can you maybe draw that out a little bit in the way that you see it? Dr. Pollak 16:02 Sure. And I also want to thank you, because as I mentioned, my son, and daughter in law just had a new baby, and I got baby just got back from the hospital recently. And I got an email from him saying, Oh, you know, change seven diapers today. And you sent me a wonderful link that I thought was so moving. And you I'm sure you want to include that in the show notes. Where the writer really talks about respecting the child, Jen 16:35 Gosh, I don't know who it was. Do you remember? Dr. Pollak 16:38 Zachary? Is that...? It was in the email you sent me. I googled it and then sent it to my...Perfectionism: A Relational Approach to Conceptualization, Assessment, and Treatment
Perfectionism in Childhood and Adolescence: A Developmental Approach (Affiliate links).
[accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:03 Hi, I'm Jen and I host the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. We all want our children to lead fulfilling lives. But it can be so hard to keep up with the latest scientific research on child development and figure out whether and how to incorporate it into our own approach to parenting. Here at Your Parenting Mojo, I do the work for you by critically examining strategies and tools related to parenting and child development that are grounded in scientific research and principles of respectful parenting. If you'd like to be notified when new episodes are released and get a FREE Guide to 7 Parenting Myths That We Can Safely Leave Behind, seven fewer things to worry about. Subscribe to the show at YourParentingMojo.com. You can also continue the conversation about the show with other listeners in the Your Parenting Mojo Facebook group. I do hope you'll join us. Jen 01:01 Hello, and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo Podcast. Today we're going to look at a topic that bubbles up fairly often in online parenting groups, and that's related to perfectionism. The typical post goes something like this, my child starts an activity but as soon as something doesn't go exactly the way they hope to maybe a crayon wasn't the color they wanted, or they extended a mark too far on the paper. Or they got an answer wrong on a quiz for school. They screw up the paper in a ball and throw it away. And when this happens on a regular basis, it just seems debilitating. How can I help my child to overcome this now while they're still young, so it doesn't have a big impact on their life? Jen 01:39 And I was actually in the library a while ago looking for books on another topic for another podcast episode and right next to the one I was there to get was an edited volume on perfectionism. And inside was an essay by our guest today Dr. Paul Hewitt. And when I read that essay, and I delved into his body of work, I knew he was exactly the right guest to speak with us. Jen 01:59 Dr. Hewitt works mostly with adults. But just as we learned when we covered anxiety a few months ago, it can be really difficult to find someone to interview who doesn't just focus on treating the symptoms of the problem, and instead goes beneath the symptoms to understand the real causes, which is what Dr. Hewitt's work does so effectively. Dr. Hewitt is a professor of psychology, and a registered clinical psychologist who has conducted extensive research on the construct of perfectionism, which is the idea of what perfectionism actually is, and whether it's harmful to people. He's currently doing research on the treatment of perfectionism and trains clinicians in the treatment of perfectionistic behavior. Dr. Hewitt received his BA from the University of Manitoba, his M.A., and his PhD from the University of Saskatchewan, and he currently leads the Perfectionism and Psychopathology Lab at the University of British Columbia. In 2019, Dr. Hewitt received the Donald O. Hebb Award for Distinguished Contributions to Psychology as a Science for his work on perfectionism. Jen 02:56 Welcome, Dr. Hewitt. Dr. Hewitt 02:58 Thank you very much. Jen 02:59 All right. So let's start with definitions because it seems as though this should be kind of an easy thing to do, right to define what perfectionism is, but the more you start poking at it, the more you realize it's a pretty nebulous concept. So, can you please tell us how you define perfectionism? Dr. Hewitt 03:15 You're right it on first blush, it feels like something that should be fairly straightforward. And indeed, a lot of people in the literature, treat it as something that's very simple, straightforward - cognitions, or thoughts or attitudes - in reality, I've spent about 35 years doing research and clinical work with people with problems with perfectionism, and my definition has evolved over the decades. At this point, I couldn't really think of perfectionism as a really complex, sort of multi-dimensional, multi layered personality style. So, it's like a character style that people have that really serves a fundamental purpose for individuals. Dr. Hewitt 04:00 So, it's, again, it's an ingrained, stable kind of personality style that people have. So, it's very generally, you know, we got, we got very specific in terms of what that might entail, and maybe I can work my way through that. Jen 04:16 That would be great. Thank you. Dr. Hewitt 04:18 One of the ways to think about perfectionism is that people - children, adults, adolescents, seniors - will have a requirement of perfection that is, some will need themselves, they'll require themselves to be perfect, or they will require other people to be perfect, or both. And when we talk about what we've talked about the need to be perfect, we talk really about perfectionism traits. Dr. Hewitt 04:49 Actually, before I go any further, let me let me state this. The conceptualization that I've put together with my colleagues over the years has not come just from research or from reading in the literature. It's come from working with patients and it's come from working with people and my patients over the years have taught me what perfectionism is. So, this whole aspect of my work has really fueled everything that I do from the models we've created to the treatment that we've developed to the understandings. Dr. Hewitt 05:23 So, we can go back to this need to be perfect. We talk about perfectionism traits, and traits are personality characteristics that we have that are stable, they are long standing, they've been there for a long time, often, most of our lives. They don't change very easily. And we've talked about perfectionism traits. And these traits, these perfectionism traits, drive and energies, perfectionistic behavior. Dr. Hewitt 05:55 So, it's these traits that drive first off the need to be perfect. And there's three ways that we've talked about people needing to be perfect. The first, we've just called self-oriented perfectionism, meaning, I need me to be perfect, I have the requirement that I have to attain perfection. And so that's one element. It's kind of what everybody thinks about when we talk about perfectionism. There's another element whereby individuals don't, I don't necessarily need me to be perfect, I need you to be perfect, or my children, or the other drivers on the road, or my wife, or my students or the world, in general, I need everybody else to be perfect. And I will be harsh and critical of those people when they're not perfect. In the same way, that when I have a requirement for myself to be perfect, I will be harsh and critical of myself. Dr. Hewitt 06:53 There's a third element. And this one really came from my clinical work, where it became clear that there were people who needed to be perfect, but it wasn't arising from themselves, it wasn't this intrinsic kind of need. It was more that other people require me to be perfect. And it's the perception that other people require me to be perfect. Now that can be absolutely true. Or it can simply be a perception that's not objectively accurate. But nevertheless, the person has that experience of their world where I am expected to be perfect. And that can come again, from spouses from your boss from the world in general, where a person feels like the expectation by others is that I need to be perfect. And those are the traits and they kind of drive. All of this need to be perfect. Dr. Hewitt 07:51 So that's one element of perfectionism. Another one that came out of my clinical work was not the need to be perfect. But the need to communicate to the world that I am perfect. So, you may know people that you had described, yeah, that person needs to be perfect, I can see them being really concerned with being perfect, or maybe even striving or driving to be perfect. I don't know these other people who don't necessarily strive and drive, or even concerned about striving, they are more concerned with communicating to everybody that I am perfect. There are certain politicians that exist in the world, for whom that rings very, very true. Dr. Hewitt 08:37 So, there's three ways that I can essentially appear perfect to you. One is I can communicate to you how perfect I am, I'll tell you all kinds of things that I do, I might even show you something that I do incredibly well, I will promote myself as perfect in with the goal that you will then see me somehow as perfect. Another way to do that, and that's by me kind of doing the opposite is I will conceal things from people, I will not show you any behavior that I exhibit that might be imperfect. So, I might have a concern with you'll never see me public speak, for example, because if I speak publicly, I might falter. And you will then see an imperfection in me. And that is very aversive. So, there's that element. There's also and this is particularly pernicious one where I will not disclose or verbally reveal imperfections. And if you think about the establishment of intimate relationships, it's all about this process of more and more kind of revealing truly who we are as people - perfections, imperfect and everything. You can see that there's a whole domain of revealing of the stuff felt that this kind of perfectionism would really interfere. So, there's that domain, you can start to see that we're talking about a complex personalities found here. And that is in the interpersonal domain, that's about how the perfectionism is expressed: interpersonal. Dr. Hewitt 10:20 The third element that we focused on is more intrapersonal, that is within the individual. And the way I like to frame it is when we're talking about needing to appear perfect to others, that is about the relationship one has with other people. The intrapersonal is about the relationship one has with oneself. And one of the ways best to capture that is we all have this internal dialogue that we have going on, not necessarily constantly, but a lot of the day. So, prior to this podcast, as I was getting ready, you know, I'm quiet, so my wife is there, she just sees me kind of doing whatever. But in my head, I'm doing okay, well, I've got 15 minutes, I got to make sure that I do this, I got to do that sort of thing and make sure my headphones are on. And it's this simple dialogue that I have with myself. Often, it's just something like that but sometimes it can be a dialogue that really reflects how the relationship I have with myself. So I could be us the self-statements, things I say to myself, Oh, I got a task, I've got to do this perfectly, I've got to make sure I don't come across as silly or stupid, or flawed or defective or anywhere like that. It's just dialogue. And if you think about that, if you had a partner that you were doing this podcast with, and you sent those words to your partner, okay, you got to do this perfectly, you got to make, it would cause real problems. And you probably wouldn't have a partner for very long. Jen 12:04 Mm hmm. Dr. Hewitt 12:05 It's very hostile and aggressive. And yet, so if we think of that the way we're interacting with ourselves, it's a very hostile and aggressive way of interacting with ourselves. We can also do things like after the podcast, we say, Oh how can I be so stupid, I can't believe I said, after all these errors, I'm just horrible, I should quit this, I'll never succeed. And these self-recriminations are self-critical element. Also, if you said that to a partner would be very abusive. And so, we can have this abusive relationship, we can also have a soothing self-congratulatory relationship with self-love for perfectionism, this relationship with self tends to be perfectionistic. As I said, I've got to do this perfectly, but also very harsh and critical. Dr. Hewitt 12:57 So, we've got these three domains, three layers of perfectionism and perfectionistic behavior. And again, this is this is the truth is we're very complex creatures. And it's great to try to have simple models. But when the models sort of eliminate the humanness of people in all their complexity, it's really not much help to us at all. That's what we call a descriptive model of perfectionism. That's how the group that I work with, that's how we see perfection. Jen 13:33 Okay. And... Dr. Hewitt 13:35 So yes, it's broad. Jen 13:39 It's big, and it's complicated. And so, this is really driven. I mean, the vast majority of your academic career, right? I mean, why is it so important to understand so much about perfectionism? Dr. Hewitt 13:51 One, because as soon as people kind of hear about it, it very often resonates with them. They say, Oh, I understand that, oh, I can relate to that. Or I don't know how many thousands of times I've given a talk both professionally and to the public. And people come up afterwards, all the time. And they're often moved simply because I've described something that resonates. Jen 14:16 Finally, somebody understands me. Dr. Hewitt 14:18 That or now I understand, my beloved aunt, or my beloved father or grandparent where they want my sibling or my child. And so, it really kind of resonates with people first off, but also it's important because when I first started this work, I was actually an undergraduate, third year undergraduate. And I discovered that people kind of written a little bit about nobody done any research. And there were these implications that might be associated with depression, and anxiety, and eating disorders, and this, that and the other thing, and nobody checked it out. So did some initial work and developed ways to kind of do that. Some research and then began a process of finding out what not only perfectionism was, but all these different components that we've talked about. That, what are they related to, and we just find a gain into that it's related to all kinds of different problems, and problems in things that we might call psychological or psychiatric diagnosis, very significant relationship problems, very significant achievement problems, and very significant physical health problems, including a study that was done by a colleague of mine here in Canada, on early death, that perfectionism is associated with knowing your control some of the other death factors is predictive of earlier death. So, it's important because it's really associated with all kinds of difficulties for people. Now, there's lots of reasons theories we have as to why that, why that might be and how that works, and that sort of thing. So, a big part of my research and many others across the world has been to try to figure out what are the problems with this personality style? And then how does it work? Ultimately, how do we help people with it? Jen 16:20 Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay. So, it's associated with a lot of negative things. But one idea that I've seen both in the literature and that I think parents have heard of, as well as this idea of positive perfectionism. And the first reference that I was able to find on it was back in 1978, and I kind of traced it through the literature a little bit, and found a definition in a paper from 1988, where the author's described positive perfectionism, I'm going to quote, as cognitions and behaviors that are directed toward the achievement of certain high level goals to obtain positive consequences. That is positive perfectionism is driven by positive reinforcement and desire for success. And they actually described developing a positive and negative perfectionism scale that drew heavily on a model that you would develop. So, I'm wondering, can you talk us through your ideas about whether this idea of positive perfectionism exists? Dr. Hewitt 17:11 Oh, no, it doesn't. Dr. Hewitt 17:15 From my perspective, there's nothing positive about perfectionism. And there is within the field of perfectionism research, there's somewhat of a controversy, although it's becoming less and less of a controversy as we actually understand it more. The truth of it is, perfectionism is about perfecting the self, don't define it as perfecting things like to make sure everything on my desk is perfectly aligned. That's something entirely that's obsessionalism, or compulsive behavior. Perfection is about having a sense of being defective, flawed,Racing to Justice: Transforming Our Conceptions of Self and Other to Build an Inclusive Society (Affiliate link).
[accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 01:11 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. In today's episode, we're going to draw together themes from a couple of different series that we've been working on over the last few months. One of these was on the intersection of Whiteness and parenting, and the other more recent one has been on the intersection of money and parenting. And one common theme across both of these topics is the idea of seeing someone who's different from you as somehow other than you. And so I'm deeply honored today to welcome Dr. John Powell, who is an internationally recognized expert in the areas of civil rights and civil liberties. Dr. Powell is the director of the Othering and Belonging Institute at the University of California Berkeley, which supports research to generate specific prescriptions for changes in policy and practice that address disparities related to race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, disability and socio economics in California and nationwide. Dr. Powell is Professor of Law and also Professor of African American Studies and Ethnic Studies at UC Berkeley. And is the author of the book Racing to Justice: Transforming Our Concepts of Self and Other to Build an Inclusive Society. Welcome, Dr. Powell. Dr. Powell 02:17 Nice to be here, Jen. Jen 02:19 And so I should also add that we scheduled this interview way back in February, right? Because your calendar is absolutely bananas. And we're just now talking here at the beginning of May. And so to put this in context, when we scheduled this in February, COVID-19 was something that was happening in China and really didn't seem to affect us very much or like it was going to affect us very much. And here in May, obviously, we are in a very different situation. And so I think our conversation today is going to be even more powerful with this additional context of othering that we're seeing related to things like attacks on Asian Americans here in the US, as well as under counting the number of Native Americans who have the virus, and how the whole world is basically shut down for an illness that's killed a small fraction of the number of people that diarrheal diseases and tuberculosis kill every year. Although, obviously the people that those diseases typically kill is very different from the people we are seeing the highest numbers of COVID-19 cases. So I'm sure our discussion today is going to be as this backdrop. And I think it makes it even more timely and even more compelling to listen to. So, I wonder if we could maybe start with a definition because othering is, I'm guessing is a term that's not going to be so familiar to many of my listeners. So can you start by grounding us a little bit and telling us about what is othering, please. Dr. Powell 03:33 All right, so there's, as you would expect, there are many different ways of thinking about othering and the flip side of belonging, which we'll get to, I guess early. Jen 03:41 Mm-hmm. Certainly, will. Dr. Powell 03:42 It comes from many different disciplines, from healthcare, from sociology, from psychology, from philosophy, from feminist studies, from political science, each one has a slightly different variation as to how they talk about it. But one way of thinking about it is just when you do not accept someone else's full humanity and full equality. The bus concept as people are not seen as grievable, or people don't count, or in some way, they're less that. So it could be because there are different levels of othering, you connect othering between husband and wife, but not gonna have genocide in that context. Whereas when you have extreme othering of some groups, it also can lead into genocide. And there’s othering that’s exploitive. So, I was young made to observation that to be superfluous is worse than to be exploited. Because when you are superfluous, you can be subject to genocide. When you're exploited, you're not likely to suffer genocide. Jen 04:47 Because you have a use to somebody. Dr. Powell 04:49 Right. So, there are forms of othering, but sort of broad way of thinking about it when someone is seen as less than fully equal, less than mutual, and it can add to that like maybe a threat. In some sense, we're in different slow to some ways of thinking about it. Jen 05:07 Okay, and so I'm trying to think about this from a psychological perspective and thinking about we've talked a long time ago now about how social groups form and a big part of it seems to be about creating this difference in your mind between what is me, what is myself, and to understand that you have to have something to compare it to some kind of other, how do you integrate that psychological aspect into the definitions of othering that you work with? Dr. Powell 05:32 Well, the psychological definitions tend to be individualistic. And whereas some other definition certainly when I talked about Judith Butler or when I talked about sociology, Steve Martinot, they’re not psychological in that sense, in the sense that one of the preconditions to think about othering is when you think about group othering, there does seem to be a mind is set to actually categorize and differentiate and out of that comes the concept of ingroups and outgroups. But there's a lot to suggest that there's no stability in ingroups and outgroups, that people move in and out. And when we were talking about othering, we're largely talking about at a group level, not at individual level. And there's no natural other. I mean, that's the mistake I think that a lot of the psychological literature suggests that you see someone was different. And as the Dean of Harvard Law School wrote a book called What Differences the Difference Make [Jen note: I believe Dr. powell is referring to the book Making All The Difference]. So the psychological literature seems to suggest that there's natural others. And we think that those natural others and natural othering process fall along certain well traveled categories like race, gender, and that's clearly wrong. There's no natural other and there's no natural group. And part of that comes from a misunderstanding of our history. And so we think about, we organized in tribes, and so in tribes we had intimate contact with anywhere from 50 to 150 people. And that was it. And everyone else was an outgroup, and potentially either a threat or a different. But when we talk about Whiteness, for example, we're not talking about 50 people. So the 2 million years that we spent on tribes, there was no concept of Whiteness. And people weren't organized from Whiteness, they're organized around proximity. And race as we know it is relatively new, a few hundred years old. And then the capacity to actually define someone as an ingroup is a sociological process, it’s not in a build on a psychological tendency. For example, there are over 1 billion Christians, they'll never see each other. They have different languages, they have different race, but in some sense, they think of themselves as a group. They identify as a group. There's 340 million Americans and so why is that a group? That sounds nothing to do in a deep sense with 50 people, right? This is a very broad process. And so it's not that I see a person who has a different race than me, and then I have a whole bunch of things happen is that I've actually been constituted in such a way, not on my own behalf, and not on my own efforts entirely. In fact, a lot of this is pre-given. So for example, prejudice can only really exist when there's already a structure in the language and a grammar for prejudice that’s not the individual. So there's a little tension between the way psychologists approach it and the way sociologists and others approach it. Jen 08:39 Yeah, for sure. And one thing I wanted to pick up in what you said was that we sort of assume that these are essentialist categories that I one thing or I’m another thing, and actually, we create these categories, right? I mean, I'm thinking about the immigration of Irish people who were not initially considered White in the US when they first came over. And so what are some of the other ways that you see this? You know, we think these are essentialist categories, but actually, they're not in any way, essentialist. Dr. Powell 09:07 Right. And so interesting question, I've been a little bit about this so as you suggest essentialist sort of will locate something in the person who's just it’s in your biology, it’s in your nature and change, we have largely moved to anti-essentialist posture, in the sense that there are very few, if any essential categories and even if they were essential, the meaning is not essential. So when I was growing up, initially, race was considered essential. And you read stuff from the 1950s and 60s and races talk about us being biological and essential. And then some people would take that biological understanding of race and then attribute certain characteristics to it. As that started to melt away or become contested, people shift it as that okay race is an essential or biological, it’s sociological. But gender, aha, that is different. And they’re only, you know, a man or woman, you know. Jen 10:01 Yeah. Dr. Powell 10:02 And some people early on, so that's not quite true, you can be more. And now of course, people don't think of gender, or gender roles as essential at all. And there's no clear human biology associated with it, you have transgender. And so, again, in terms of the Academy, people question if there's anything that's essential. Now, the mistake that people make with that is that they then assume, because we're not essential, and if these categories are sociological and creative, can we step outside of these categories, and live in some way in which there are no categories? And that seems pretty wrong. And the categories don't have to be as rigid, and they can be multiple and they can be fluid and we can influence them. But the way the mind works and the way we work as people, we're always in relationship. And we need some categories to actually negotiate the world. We seem to be taking too much information. And another are saying that is that all of my interactions are mediated. We have no direct interaction with the world or with each other or even with ourselves. It's sort of interesting, my experience and when they say that, they assume they're talking about some unmediated, unfiltered phenomenon. Most people who look at this carefully would say, there's no such thing, that the very concept of reception is already structured. But it's not essential. So it can't restructure. And there are things we can do to shift it. But we can't simply step outside and have God's eye view and just see the world as it is. Jen 11:42 Yeah. And so when we start to think about things that we could do that are different from othering, one potential way we could think about it is well, I've seen it referred to as saming, you know, we could just say, well, we're going to treat everybody equally. Why is that a bad idea? Dr. Powell 11:57 Well, first of all, it doesn't work. In some ways, it's basically saying, in order for me to treat you as a full human being, you have to become some version of me. And that's better than saying, you’re categorically different. And I can never understand you. And therefore, I can do all these terrible things to you. It's like, so I have this thing, it's like, because we are both the same and different, dialogue is necessary and possible. And what it means by that, if we were just the same, dialogue wouldn't be necessary. I don't need to talk to you on the same thing. I don’t need to ask you how you feel. Jen 12:35 You already know. Dr. Powell 12:36 You know, it's like, what would I feel? A gentle exactly is out here because she's an extension of me. And the other is that because it were totally different, the infinite other as Hegel talks about, that I couldn't understand. And so his life is a little bit more messy. The other things that are interesting, I find very fascinating, is that the process of suppressible saming some ways an erasure, you know, it's like, it's actually kind of the liberal response to the categorical differences that we made in the past like, Blacks are women, it's like, no, we're all the same. And that all the same, the person speaking, generally is the dominant group. And so then, in order to be a member of society, it means I have to adhere to whatever the dominant group considers to be the necessary thing. And so if you think about something like a Bill Clinton, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, right? Like you can join the military and kill people just like anybody else, but we don't want to hear about your sexual exploits. But from heterosexual, a heterosexual man, I can brag about my sexual exploits. So even in that formulation, you're saying one group can show up and be messed up on the chest for how many sexual exploits I have, but if you're homosexual, shhh, no one would talk about that. Jen 14:00 Yeah. Dr. Powell 14:01 It’s different. So the goal is not to be treated as the same. In fact, the idea of equality exit from the western concept come from Aristotle. And Aristotle understood that there were two different forms of equality when he calls arithmetic and what he calls geometric. And arithmetic is when we people are situated the same. And he says basically treat people who were situated the same as fare or treat people who are situated differently is unfair, but when people are not situated the same, to treat them as if they were the same, doesn’t make any sense. We got half of Aristotle's insights and not the other half. Jen 14:40 Yeah. And it seems as though a lot of what you're speaking to is sort of getting at the idea of denying people agency and I think I see that a fair bit in the parenting world, you know, I'm obviously White and a lot of people who are talking about parenting are White, and schools I think you're very much geared for the success of middle class White children, and you know, in the parenting spirits, it's really common to hear about children needing protection. And often there are specific groups of parents, they're usually, you know, Black or Brown, low socio economic status. And these parents don't care about their children's education in some way. And in doing that, we're kind of removing, we're constructing a narrative where we really remove agency from these individuals. And we say, well, the school knows best or the state knows best. And if only you parented, like middle class White parents did, then your children would be so much better off and so much better able to...Longing and Belonging: Parents, Children, and Consumer Culture (Affiliate link).
Other episodes on this series This episode is the second in a series on the intersection of parenting and money. You can find other episodes in this series: 038: The Opposite of Spoiled 105: How to pass on mental wealth to your child 112: How to Set up a Play Room 115: Reducing the Impact of Advertising to Children 118: Are You Raising Materialistic Kids? [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 01:31 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today's episode is part of a series that I'm doing on the Intersection of Childhood and Money. A while back now I interviewed New York Times columnist Ron Lieber, on his book The Opposite of Spoiled and we do use his approach to several topics related to money. But it seemed to me for a while now that there's a lot more to say on this. So more recently, I interviewed Dr. Brad Klontz on his concept of Money Scripts, which are the ideas about money that were passed on to us by our parents and that we will probably pass on to our children as well if we don't critically examine these and potentially make a conscious decision to choose a different path. Another avenue I've been wanting to explore is consumerism since I come from England, which is certainly becoming more Americanized than many other places, but where consumerism still doesn't have the same force that it does here in the US where buying things to express love or because you're feeling sad or just because you feel like it is pretty much considered a birthright. And I spent a lot of time looking for someone to talk with on this topic and finally found our guest today Dr. Allison Pugh. Dr. Pugh is a Professor of Sociology at the University of Virginia whose teaching and research focuses on contemporary work and relationships, and particularly the intertwining of culture, emotions, intimacy and economic life. She's currently a fellow at the University of Southern California in Los Angeles while she writes a book about her research on the automation of work that's historically relied on relationships between people like the caring professions. She wrote the book Longing and Belonging: Parents, Children and Consumer Culture back in 2009, in which she studies how children and parents in both affluent and working class communities in the East Bay Area of California where I live, manage the commercialization of childhood. The book was named by contemporary sociology as one of the 12 most influential books on the family written since 2000 and received several awards. A decade later, it remains the seminal work on this topic. So I'm excited that Dr. Pugh is here today to talk with us and help us think through this important topic. Welcome, Dr. Pugh. Dr. Pugh 03:26 Thank you so much. Jen 03:28 All right, so I'd like to start by quoting a few of the very first sentences from the preface of your book. So you say “Ask them straight out and most upper income parents will tell you they don't buy much for their children because they have the ‘right values’. Meanwhile, low income parents will try to convince you they buy quite a bit because they are not ‘in trouble’. Go into their children's bedrooms, however, and you will find many of the same objects Nintendo or Sony gaming system, the collectible cards, the Hello Kitty pencils.” You go on to describe how nine in 10 Americans feel that children today want too many material things. And four out of five parents think Americans overly materialistic society produces over commercialized children. Oh, my goodness. So what are some of the popular reasons why we might think this situation exists? Dr. Pugh 04:17 Well, the first thing I would say is what is the situation? Jen 04:19 Yes. Dr. Pugh 04:20 And the situation is that children have a lot of things and yet Americans are worried about how much children might attach to those things, how much kind of emotional attachment they might feel towards material things. And those two, that's why I'm saying that, I'm describing that situation using those two things. They both have the things and Americans are worried about their feelings toward those things. That's the situation we're describing. And why do we have that situation? One issue is the kind of massive influence of consumer culture on Americans generally, not just children but children and adults, and that's why children have those things. And then the question about like, or the issue about how Americans are worried about how children feel about those things, that's a different issue. And that reflects our ambivalence towards consumer culture. As a culture, we both embrace it and we are worried about it. We are concerned about its impact on our own lives. And we express that concern with our concern around children. That's what I would say, kind of writ large. Now, the question about like popular reasons why people think children might be materialistic. That is, you know, people are sure that children are just glued to the TV or to their screens and then very susceptible to the advertising that's they're more susceptible than they see themselves as being. That would be like the number one reason why people are afraid that children are too materialistic. Another thing that you hear sometimes popular reasons would be people are pretty sure that other people, other parents are less able to control themselves than they themselves are. So they're pretty sure that other parents are, you know, kind of opening the spigot and just letting kids have whatever they ask. And then there's often a lot of generational critique, like, oh, kids today, you know, that would be another kind of popular reason why people are afraid. They're like, oh, kids today, they're more materialistic. They're more screen-focused, they're more obsessed with stuff, you know, that kind of thing. So those are three potential reasons why people—those are reasons you hear batted about, like, why kids, they have so much and be maybe too attached to those things. Jen 06:45 It's like we're caught in a really difficult bind here, isn't it? We want the convenience of being able to make one click and buy something on Amazon that shows up tomorrow, whenever we feel like it. But at the same time, we're so worried about what this means for our children's futures. It's a very difficult position to be in for parents, I think. Dr. Pugh 07:04 Yes, I agree. And, yeah, my overall kind of conclusion from all the years of research that I did and talking to people about this subject after is that, you know, the overarching conclusion I would want people to walk away with is something like, you know, be aware that children live in the same culture that you do. Jen 07:25 They do? Dr. Pugh 07:28 And whatever you're worried about for your children, kind of look at your own self, and what is the kind of modeling that you are doing? That's kind of the main thing that I come away with. Jen 07:42 Yeah. Okay. All right. Thanks for giving that away early on. Jen 07:46 And so you'd mentioned advertising, and I know that advertisements geared towards children isn't a big focus of yours. And so I'm hoping to do a follow up episode on that with somebody else who does really focus on this, but I wonder if you could just tell us briefly before we move on, why do you take a different view on this topic? Dr. Pugh 08:02 Right. Well, it's not that I don't think advertising is important. Advertising is very important. I’m not, you know, kind of discounting the findings of many, many psychologists and experimental scientists that find that, you know, you show children an ad in an experimental situation in a lab, and then they turn out they want it more later or, you know, like there's a lot, not to mention all the corporate research finding efficacy, you know, they spent billions of dollars on advertising to children, and they're not doing it for their health. They’re doing it because they believe it to be effective. So it's not that I'm saying advertising is not effective. For me, I was less interested in tracking the effectiveness of advertising than I was in kind of how children what's the meaning children make of the stuff in their lives when they're out in the real world? What does it mean to them? And so the reason why I didn't focus on the advertising is because I kind of made it a constant. I just assumed all kids are exposed to advertising to some degree. And I did this at a time when I myself had three young children ranging in age from about, I think it was about three to 10. And my kids, you know, we don't have a TV, you know, like all these things, I was doing all these things to, I thought shelter my children from advertising. Jen 09:26 As a good middle class parent does. Dr. Pugh 09:29 You know, doing my best. And then they're in school or just walking around, like they swim in this water just like we do. So, even if you're doing some things, to keep them what you think sheltered or protected from advertising culture or consumer culture, they get it anyway from a whole bunch of other sources. And so that was part of the thinking that like, you know, advertising is everywhere. But that's not the end of the conversation. That's the beginning of a conversation like, given that advertising is everywhere, what do we know then? What's next about what to know about the meaning that children make from stuff? That's where I started. I wasn't controlling the effect of advertising because I didn't perceive that that was very possible. I was just like, okay, assuming advertising is everywhere, what next? Jen 10:24 Yeah. And so that takes us nicely to one of the key themes in your book, I think, which is the balance of needing to fit in, but also not be too different from people. So you want to be different enough to express your individuality, which is why you need Nike sneakers, right? The right logo on the side. So you have to fit in, but you also have to show your individuality. And of course, this exists both on the part of the children that you studied, as well as on the parents’ memories of their own childhoods and whether or not I as a parent felt like I fit in as a child really can have some profound impacts on how I want to raise my child. And so I'm curious, what can you tell us about the differences that you notice that were important to children and parents? Dr. Pugh 11:05 Mm-hmm. Well, one thing I want to emphasize a little bit differently, put a slightly different emphasis on what you are saying, which is I found that everyone, I would say, was concerned about fitting in. And the concern about individuality seemed, I'd say, of course, that's going to vary by temperament. So some kids are more concerned with that, but really, that was coming from the parents. So the kids were much more interested in belonging. And that's why I came up with that title. That title says it all. Jen 11:39 Yeah, longing and belonging. Dr. Pugh 11:43 What's the meaning? If the question is what is the meaning that kids make of the stuff in their lives? The answer is belonging. And that's actually a really different thing than a lot of research I found thinks the existing research is like thinking about status and how to be better than, you know, the better than your neighbor or your, you know, in a hierarchy. And actually, the kids and I remember, you know, I sat with kids for three years. Jen 12:16 You knew these kids really well. Dr. Pugh 12:17 I knew them really well.There were three different locations that varied essentially by class. There was a kind of wealthy public school, a private school, and then a low income public school setting. And each of these the kids are using the meaning of the goods and the kind of services that they could buy or that the parents were buying to belong more than to assert their dominance. So it was like I kept seeing again and again, you know, kids sitting around going, you know, I have a Gameboy, which I realized is a rather outdated reference, so, whatever they're talking about today. I have a Gameboy and then someone else would say, well, I have a We or something they would try and trump it. They would instead say, well, I have a Gameboy. Yeah, I have one too. Yeah, I have one too. And it was like, I have one too or I've done that too, was much more prevalent and much more prominent in the conversations that I was witnessing over three years. Then, well, that's for losers and really everyone should have this or whatever, you know. Now, that's the kids’ world that I was witnessing. And that was a surprise to me, because I had been kind of prepped by the culture, I think the Mean Girls trope, you know, the obsession with status that is a lot of popular culture as well as the existing research. But then you talk to the parents. So I also interviewed parents of the children that I was observing in each location, and the parents were worried like about belonging also. But they were also worried about their kids’ individuality or I should say the affluent parents in particular were most focused on their kids’ individuality in ways that the children were less so. And I can talk more about that, because that's tied into all sorts of other things about parenting, but those things I found in their consumer. Jen 14:19 And I think from the affluent parents’ side, that sort of, I'm thinking ahead to the college years and the getting into college years, and you've sort of got to show that your kid is different from the other 50,000 kids who are applying to Harvard, right? Is that a big part of the difference aspect? Dr. Pugh 14:34 Isn’t that interesting? So I think that's true. But it's mediated through a kind of generalized parenting style of, you know, intensive concerted cultivation that I think you may have talked about before on the podcast. So Annette Lareau’s really important work diagnosing what middle class and above parents are trying to do, this concerted cultivation is figure out how your kids are unique individuals and then cultivate the things that they are going to make them particularly special that are their particular passions. That's something that starts at very young, will say toddlers, and I think is powered by, in my opinion by rising inequality and the higher stakes of getting into college and which colleges, the college race. Jen 15:27 Yup. So you mentioned Dr. Annette Lareau’s work there, and yeah, we have mentioned that on the podcast before and the term concerted cultivation is one that she used to describe how parents used organized activities and I guess consumption as well to foster their child's talents and I'm going to quote you on this that you said,“From the perspective of upper income parents knowing children's desires was also part of caring well, of listening, empathizing and reflecting back to their children their true natures, so they grew to know and love themselves. Upper income parents sought to understand their children’s individuals including their desires as part of diagnosing their individual strengths and weaknesses, the central task of every upper income caregiver before commencing on the path of concerted cultivation, plumbing the depths of children's desires was good parenting.” And I have to say, I'm gonna go out on a limb here, this statement made me really feel kind of uncomfortable, because I see so much of myself and my daughter in it. And there's a lot kind of going on in my personal life right now that I'm struggling with or related to not really knowing myself and I talked to Dr. Carol Gilligan recently about how patriarchy causes women to not really truly know and to use their true voice and men not to know and express their true feelings. And so I do want to help my daughter to know herself and to express herself from a very young age and we plan to homeschool and so we're going to have the time and space for her to really know her own strengths and weaknesses. And kind of in a way cultivate herself and I think and hope this will help her to live a fulfilling life. But I also see Dr. Lareau is arguing I'm essentially preparing her to function as an upper middle class White person in society. And of course, the reason I'm able to do this is because I have economic privilege. And so what I'm trying to tease out here is, is it wrong of me to do it in some way? Jen 17:12 It's okay to say yes. Dr. Pugh 17:15 I completely empathize with it. And I have a kind of two part answer. Jen 17:20 Okay. Dr. Pugh 17:21 The first is that what you're describing is kind of seeing another person with positive regard and reflecting that person back to her or him, you know, the child, that's part of good parenting. That’s part of good caring on some level, like even the psychologists with their analysis of infant caregiver relations will tell you that that this is mirroring. And that's part of good care. So on the most fundamental level, the answer is no, no, it's not wrong. The problem is when it gets kind of activated as entitlement, and that's the direction in which our culture is going. So there's really great work after Lareau, which was published, you know, 15 years ago or more. There's really great work showing that kids of middle class versus kids of working class or poor backgrounds, take that the streets you could say that they derive from being seen so regularly and so typically by their parents, and take it into the classroom and customize the classroom to their needs, in ways that accentuate the advantages that they have. You know, it's not just their parents speak more vocabulary to them or that they have more books in the home, but that they assume that they can customize...In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women’s Development
Darkness Now Visible: Patriarchy's Resurgence and Feminist Resistance
[accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen: 00:01:26 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. It's hard to know even where to begin on today's topic, which is patriarchy. Now, before you think to yourself, come on, Jen, aren't you overstepping your bounds a little bit here or maybe even am I listening to the right podcast? If you're seeing this topic as a bit of a non-sequitur with the kinds of issues that we normally discuss on the show related to parenting and child development, then I'd really encourage you to sit tight because this topic has everything to do with those things. I'm so honored that today we have an incredibly special guest to help us understand more about this topic and that's Dr. Carol Gilligan. I'm pretty sure there's a group of my listeners for whom Dr. Gilligan needs no introduction because they probably read and loved her work when they were in college, but for the rest of us, Dr. Gilligan received her Bachelor's Degree in English Literature from Swarthmore College, a Master’s in Clinical Psychology from Radcliffe College and a Ph.D. in Social Psychology from Harvard University. Her 1982 book In a Different Voice is widely regarded as a landmark and following her research on women and girls development, she began to study young boys and their parents as well as the relationship between men and women. Dr. Gilligan taught at Harvard for more than 30 years and is now on the faculty at New York University where she co-teaches a seminar on resisting injustice. That was the impetus for her most recent book. This was coauthored with one of her students Naomi Snider, and it's called, Why Does Patriarchy Persist? Welcome Dr. Gilligan. Dr. Gilligan: 00:02:47 Oh, thank you, Jen. My pleasure. Jen: 00:02:49 And joining me today is the listener who's brainchild this episode was Brian Stout. Brian holds a BA in Interdisciplinary Studies from Amherst College and a Masters in International Relations from Johns Hopkins and he has a background in foreign policy, conflict prevention and international development. Brian's been exploring his role in dismantling patriarchal systems for some time now. So today we're going to explore what patriarchy is and why it matters to us as parents and then Brian and I are going to be back very soon in a second episode to think through, okay, now we know more about this. What do we as parents do about it? Welcome Brian. Brian: 00:03:24 Thank you. I'm honored to be here. Jen: 00:03:26 All right, so maybe we should start at the beginning. Dr. Gilligan I'm a reasonably well educated and widely read person and I'm really not sure I could have accurately defined what patriarchy is until I'd read some of your books and so I knew it was about men and I knew it was not really a good thing, but can you enlighten us a bit more and just give us a working definition, please? Dr. Gilligan: 00:03:46 Well, you know, it's interesting because I myself, I mean I think I would have said what you said until I was doing research with girls actually and following girls from when they were beginning elementary school, six, seven years old, really through to 17 to the end of high school. And as they reached adolescence, I saw girls resisting something that was in a sense forcing them to make a choice, which the more articulate or the shrewder girls among them saw was a very problematic choice, which was do you want to have a voice? Meaning do you want to keep on being able to say what you feel and think and know or do you want to have relationships, in which case, you have to basically learn what other people want you to say rather than saying what you feel and think. And I thought this was--you could see it it was not visible, it was untangible but very palpable. Dr. Gilligan: 00:04:49 And I had to think what is the force? And then I realized it's a force that takes human capacities. Things we all share as humans, boys, girls across the gender spectrum and divides them into either masculine or feminine. So if I said to you, what is the mind? You'd probably say masculine or what is reason that's masculine? Or what about emotion? Well, that's feminine. What about the self? That's masculine. What about relationships? That's feminine. But this makes no sense from a human perspective. So basically there was a tension between human development, which is what I study and something that was in the world that was dividing human capacities into either masculine or feminine and then privileging the masculine. And I thought, that's patriarchy and patriarchy that's when I got interested in because otherwise people sort of, their eyes glaze over and they think, Oh, it's some anthropological term about ancient tribes or it's about hating men. Dr. Gilligan: 00:06:04 Actually, once I had seen this with girls, I thought, well wait a minute, aren't boys up against a similar force that says to a boy if you act or says, that's not how boys should be because boys don't cry. And you know, boys are kind of, they don't show kind of tender feelings. That's kind of girly or maybe gay. And so it's when children are suddenly up against a force that tastes their human capacities and divides them into either masculine or feminine and privileges the masculine ones. And that's patriarchy. So whenever you encounter that splitting reason versus emotion, the mind versus the body, the self versus relationships that privileges reason and mind and self over, you know, that's patriarchy. So that's how it came into my work. And I saw children resisting it and I said, is the healthy body resists infection? The healthy psyche resist patriarchy. Dr. Gilligan: 00:07:09 I mean that's a sort of simple way of putting it. And I saw children resisting it and as graduate student at Harvard who worked, did the study with me where we followed little boys from pre-kindergarten to kindergarten and into first grade. She did that as her dissertation. Her name is Judy Chu and she's now written this beautiful book called When Boys Become “Boys”, meaning how boys are often said to be, but it's not really how boys are. And you could see these four-year-olds as they turned five and then six beginning to shield themselves and not show those qualities that would lead them to be seen as girly or gay. And you know, meaning their sensitivity and their emotional and intelligence really. So if you hear of a man described as emotionally clueless, I mean the question has to be what happened to this person? Because none of us start this way. Jen: 00:08:08 Yeah. It seems as though these qualities, these masculine qualities are really privileged in a way, right? And it ends up elevating some men over other men. So it ends up elevating masculine men over gay men or any person not identifying as cisgendered male and even men of non-dominant cultures as well as of course all women. Dr. Gilligan: 00:08:28 That's exactly right. It elevates some men over other men and all men over women. Right. So that's why usually it's women who start to speak up against this, but it's not a woman versus man problem. It's a culture versus human problem. Jen: 00:08:46 Yeah. I think I remember Toni Morrison saying something about that. She said, “The enemy is not men. The enemy is the concept of patriarchy.” It's not that we're saying, you know, men bad, men are evil, men need to stop doing these things. It's the idea of patriarchy, the system that we're working within that's not working for us. Dr. Gilligan: 00:09:02 Well, yeah, I totally agree with Toni Morrison. I would say exactly the same thing. And it's the force that pushes men toward violence and that demands from women's silence. So in a certain sense, you know, it's intention with men's ability to use words rather than force. And I mean for women it's one of my girl in one of my studies said she was 17 she was a senior, she was the valedictorian of her class. She'd gotten into every college she wanted to get into. She said, “If I were to say what I was really feeling and thinking, no one would want to be with me, my voice would be too loud.” Jen: 00:09:43 Yeah. I remember that quote from, I think a couple of your books. Dr. Gilligan: 00:09:46 And which we have to realize is this was rewarded by the educational system. I mean, in other words, because she said what other people wanted her to say. In other words, she became the person other people wanted to be with rather than being herself. Dr. Gilligan: 00:10:02 I mean, she was promoted, elevated, accepted and so forth. So these are real things in the world. Like the boy who was perceived as girly or gay gets often not only teased by other boys but beaten up and insulted and called not a real boy or not one of the boys and not included among the boys. And in a society where men are seen to be superior then that boy is regarded as inferior. That boy is shamed. We're not talking about some abstract thing. If you spend time as I did, you know, with girls at the time of this initiation, which is, you know, nine, 10, 11 moving into adolescence and these boys between four, five and six, you see it. I mean parents see it and we've called it growing up, but it's more accurately described as an initiation into a culture that elevates some human beings over other human beings and really is damaging to all human beings in that sense because it keeps everyone from being fully human. Brian: 00:11:11 Carol, one of the things I loved about the title of the book, Why Does Patriarchy Persist? is that it begs the question or assumes that it didn't always, that perhaps there was a system before patriarchy. And so I'd love to invite you to speak a little bit about what you see as the origins of patriarchy. I know from some of your earlier writing, you've talked about Roman times and how sort of the systems of patriarchy came about. And I think maybe the other thought to name here is we understand that these systems intersect with White supremacy, with other legacies of oppression. And so we'd love to hear maybe just a bit of your thoughts on how do patriarchy come to be to the extent that we know eight thousand ten thousand years ago. I know this is not a perfect science, but I'd love just to hear your thoughts on how the system came about in the first place. Dr. Gilligan: 00:11:56 Well first of all, let me just say that, you know, patriarchy elevates some voices over other voices. And so the opposite of patriarchy is democracy. And the thing about democracy is it's based on an ideal of equal voice where everyone has a voice. And if you have equal voice, then you can deal with conflicts in relationships rather than by the use of force or domination. So the other thing is to say that as human beings, we're all born with a voice. I mean if you are around babies, I mean even before language, babies have the capacity, they have a voice, they can communicate what they're feeling to other people. And so as human beings, we're all born with a voice. And also as all the evidence now is really adding up and showing we’re also born almost practically from birth with a desire to engage responsively with other people. Dr. Gilligan: 00:12:53 So we're born with a voice and with a desire to live in relationships. So we're born with basically the requisites for democracy. So why does patriarchy exist? I mean, why does it exist and why does it persist and that, you know, you raise the issue Brian, because if you want to elevate one group of people that say White people over people of color or straight people over gay people or people from the West over people from let's say other parts of the world, then these relational capacities of humans are in the way. I mean the person on top will feel the feelings of the person on the bottom and the person on the bottom will have a voice and will start to say, I don't like being treated as inferior. So patriarchy exists at the point where you want to create and maintain structures of oppression, structures of inequality, White privilege, racism, sexism, homophobia. I mean you can in any way of dividing humans into some are superior and some are inferior and it's antithetical to democracy. So it's at the point where you want to set up a system that's not democratic and some people trace it to the beginnings of agriculture where there's private property involved. And some scholars you can certainly see heightened Rome, how the Republic gave way to the empire and it was at that point that you could see democracy giving way to patriarchy. Jen: 00:14:29 Brian, I want to just quote, I want to raise your Game of Thrones quote. Do you want to say it or do you want me to? Brian: 00:14:37 No, go ahead. Jen: 00:14:38 So you quoted Tyrion Lannister. It’s not often we quote Game of Thrones on the show so I don't want to let it slide. Tyrion Lannister in Game of Thrones said, “It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when what is has worked out in your favor.” And so it seems to me as though it's kind of like White privilege. I mean it's essentially is White privilege. If you're on top, if you're part of that privileged group then you don't even see it. The systems are there and they exist and you operate within them and nobody I think explicitly designed them or maybe they did I’m kinda thinking this on the spur of the moment, but they are designed in such a way that the people who sit within them don't have to examine their role within them. They just get to take advantage of the privilege that they have. What do you think about that? Dr. Gilligan: 00:15:21 Well, what I'm thinking is the window that I had into all of this is I was studying child development and so for example, one of the surprises of the work that my graduate students and I did, this was the Harvard project on women's psychology and girls development, and it really was the first project that connected women's psychology with studies of girls and following girls development. And we were mostly a group of women and we were surprised at how in a sense how outspoken girls were. I mean how strong their voices are is a wonderful story of an eight-year-old. We called our eight-year-olds whistle blowers in the relational world. And there was an eight-year-old who we called Diana and she said that she felt bad because every night at the dinner table when she tried to speak, her brother and sister interrupted her. And this is what Diana said, stealing her mother's attention. I think of that as sort of relational crimes and misdemeanors, stealing someone's attention. So the interviewers said, was there something you could do? And Diana said, “I brought a whistle to dinner.” Dr. Gilligan: 00:16:36 And every time they interrupted me, I blew the whistle. At which point they stopped talking and turned to me. And I said to them, she said, this eight year old in a nice voice, “that's much nicer”. So these children were really reading what was going on between people and naming it and taking action when relationships they felt bad because they were being ignored or not listened to or excluded or whatever. They would do something about it. So that's actually, I mean, in terms of psychological health, what we know now is relationships are not steady state. They're like the tide, they go in and out. We lose touch, we move in and out of touch with ourselves and with other people really all during the day and so forth. The key to relationship is when you lose touch, do you know how to find the other person again? Dr. Gilligan: 00:17:33 Can you repair the rupture? And what we saw is that those abilities are present right from the beginning. And it was children's resistance to losing these capacities to basically, you know, to have a voice that live in relationship that was making us aware there was a force in the world that was basically putting pressure on them to do so. So I'll tell you about the work with little boys and what the surprise was there with the four-year-olds and this is Judy's work and it's so beautifully observed. It's in her book When Boys Become Boys, because what struck her with four-year-old boys, the pre-kindergarten boys was how attentive, how articulate, how authentic and direct they were in relationship with one another and with her. I mean I thought one four-year-old said to his mother, “Mama, why do you smile when you're sad?” Dr. Gilligan: 00:18:31 So he's reading not only what she's presenting, but the feeling that's hidden behind her face, if you can think about it that way. And from four the boys moved from pre-kindergarten through kindergarten into first grade, Judy saw them becoming gradually less attentive, less authentic, less articulate and more indirect with one another and with her. And...Beyond Behaviors Flip Chart: A Psychoeducational Tool to Help Therapists & Teachers Understand and Support Children with Behavioral Changes (Affiliate links).
[accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen: 01:28 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today, we're talking about a topic that parents have been asking me about for ages and that is how to support children who are experiencing anxiety. Now, it's not super hard to find research on anxiety and on treatments for anxiety, but the hard part is finding someone who doesn't just see anxiety as an unwanted behavior that we need to extinguish using reinforcements and who actually sees anxiety as a potential cause for behaviors like having a bad attitude or lacking impulse control that we might typically think of as bad behavior rather than being caused by anxiety. So, we have a special guest today who's going to help us move beyond this view of anxiety and that's Dr. Mona Delahooke. Dr. Delahooke is a licensed clinical psychologist with more than 30 years of experience caring for children in their families. She's a member of the American Psychological Association and holds the highest level of endorsement in the field of infant and toddler mental health in California, as a Reflective Practice Mentor. She has dedicated her career to promoting compassionate relationship-based neurodevelopmental interventions for children with developmental, behavioral, emotional and learning difficulties and has written a book called Beyond Behaviors: Using Brain Science and Compassion to Understand and Solve Children's Behavioral Challenges. Welcome Dr. Delahooke. Dr. Delahooke: 02:43 Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Jen: 02:45 Thank you. And we have another special guest here today as well. We've heard about her, we've heard her words and now we're going to hear her very own voice. Today, we have with us listener, Jamie. She's not listener Jamie to us. She's Jamie Ramirez in real life and she and her wife are the proud parents of now 11-month-old daughter Elliot. Jamie struggled with anxiety for a good deal of her life and has also read on this topic a lot. And she was the one who suggested that I read Dr. Delahooke’s book and so when Dr. Delahooke agreed to an interview, it was only natural to ask Jamie to join me as a co-interviewer and she enthusiastically agreed. Welcome Jamie. Jamie: 03:22 Hi. Jen: 03:23 Yey, you’re here. All right, so let's start kind of at the beginning I guess by talking about how Dr. Delahooke’s thinking about anxiety is different from the way that most researchers and psychologists think about it and treat anxiety and children. So Jamie, I wonder if you could start by reading one of your favorite passages from Dr. Delahooke’s book and then perhaps we can contrast this with the more common view on anxiety. So do you want to go ahead and do that? Jamie: 03:48 Yeah. Jen: 03:49 Okay. Jamie: 03:50 “The truth is that we scrutinized children's behavior from the time that they're born. “She's such a good baby”, we might say of a newborn who is easy to care for, doesn't cry too much, sleeps through the night and whose moods are predictable and easy to read. Without realizing it, we are betraying our cultures understandable bias toward valuing behaviors that we can easily understand and that make our own lives easier as caregivers, teachers, or other providers. As children reach school age, we lavished praise in good grades on those who are good listeners, follow directions and can sit still and perform well on tests. We often reward these good behaviors with positive recognition, not realizing the messages we are sending to children whose natural tendencies fall outside of the easy child profile, particularly in the educational arena e.g. those who can sit still are better than those who cannot. Quiet is better than loud. While these messages may well serve the purposes of group education, they ignore the importance of understanding and appreciating and not judging the range of children's individual differences demonstrated through their behaviors.” Jen: 04:57 That's such a powerful passage. I can see where it resonated with you. Yeah. And so Dr. Delahooke, I wonder if you can contrast that as sort of the way that you view anxiety with the way most psychologists think about anxiety. What do most psychologists think anxiety is? Dr. Delahooke: 05:13 Well, the way I was trained and really I think the predominant thought still amongst most psychologists is that anxiety is understood as a disorder. And maybe we can understand that through understanding that the DSM, are you familiar with the DSM? Jen: 05:35 Yeah. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Just for listeners. Dr. Delahooke: 05:38 Yes. For listeners, it's kind of the dictionary, so to speak, for labeling and diagnosing individuals along a set of criteria. So one shift that's happened in the last kind of less than a decade starting in 2013 was that the DSM that Tom Insel, who was the head of the National Institutes of Mental Health announced that the national institutes were going to be diverting funding away from straight DSM criteria and more towards looking at underlying causality. So the short answer to your question, the way many of my colleagues, I believe view anxiety is as a DSM disorder and the American Psychological Association defines anxiety as an emotion characterized by feelings of tension, worried thoughts and physical changes like increased blood pressure. So anxiety is defined kind of loosely in a way as something that if you have a certain amount of characteristics or symptoms, then you have anxiety. Dr. Delahooke: 06:51 And that's kind of how it's viewed now as a thing, as an actual like, oh, your child has anxiety. Well, there is no blood test for anxiety. Right? So it's not exactly like your child has diabetes, you know, your child's blood sugar level is above 105 or whatever. Anxiety, the way I was trained, I was really in my education in the 80s was that it seemed like anxiety was this thing that you treat with a certain protocol such as cognitive behavioral therapy and medication if needed. And that was what would help it go away. But what I wasn't taught was what's underlying all sorts of anxiety. Well, there's all these different subtypes and so it's really exciting to me that the shift is now not just looking at a symptom checklist, but looking at the brain circuitry and the domains, the dimensions of functions rather than these categories. And it's a really exciting shift. Jen: 08:04 Yeah. And I just want to delve a little deeper into a couple of things you mentioned, you mentioned medication and cognitive behavioral therapy, and from the research that I've done, it seems as though each of those are effective in about half of the children that are treated. Is that right? Dr. Delahooke: 08:19 Well this, yeah, generally speaking with the research you might find different percentages, but some percentages are about a third. Some go up to a half. Jen: 08:29 Okay. Dr. Delahooke: 08:31 But you think about half, that still leaves another half. Jen: 08:35 Yes, it does. Yeah. And so what are some of the challenges of treating this anxiety in children? Dr. Delahooke: 08:42 Well, now that I have a different protocol, I'm finding much way fewer challenges that I think that early in my career when I was using the standard protocols is that I found that for example, cognitive behavioral therapy, trying to talk to a child and help a child actively change their thoughts and their cognitions come up with the ways that their brain can help them shift their thinking and feel better. Right? Which are great ideas, super great ideas. But I've found that for many children that fall fell flat on its face. And that's when I went to look for answers as to why. Why would some children be able to shift their thoughts? And why would others just not have that capacity, especially in the heat of the moment? And that became one of my biggest clinical questions. Jen: 09:39 Okay. And so just before we get to that, I want to briefly mention the study that came out of the Yale Child Study Center that got a lot of press, I think it was about within the last year or so and it found that a new program that teaches parents how to use reinforcements to treat their child's anxiety was as effective as traditional cognitive behavioral therapy. So again, it's working for about the third to a half of the people who are being studied. And so I'm just curious about what you make of that particular approach just because it's something that parents have probably heard of recently. Dr. Delahooke: 10:10 Right. Well, first of all, parent involvement is fantastic. We know that parent involvement, parent-based treatment is really makes most sense from a neurodevelopmental perspective because the way human beings regulate their emotions and eventually their behaviors is through co-regulation, meaning other human beings who attuned to them and we develop our emotional capacities in our ability to self-regulate emotions through relationships. So, parent involvement is great. Now, I glanced at this study yesterday, but I think you said Jen, that it uses a behavioral paradigm. Jen: 10:54 Yup. Yup. Dr. Delahooke: 10:56 Okay. Okay, so here's where I think the research coming out of the lab of Jonathan Green is way more impactful and will have more efficacious results and that is because it's not based on the paradigm of behavioral reinforcement essentially. Now the idea of reinforcing behaviors we want to see and ignoring or punishing behaviors we don't want to see is a paradigm that was developed in the last century. Dr. Delahooke: 11:28 And it started with studying animals, you know, in the lab. And it was exciting back then because you could figure out how to alter rats and dogs behaviors through reinforcement schedules. This was picked up to work with humans. And specifically one population that it was picked up on was for individuals, children and teens who are self-injuring at the University of Washington and later on at UCLA with Ivar Løvaas. So the science then was to protect and to try to of course try to help children improve their behaviors. But what is missing in my opinion and perhaps why the Yale study didn't get more than a 50% improvement rate so it equaled cognitive behavioral, is that it involved the paradigm, the older paradigm of reinforcing surface behaviors. And we now know that behaviors aren't the tip of the iceberg. So once you locate what is happening underneath the child's behavior, then you have a pathway to really helping them gain behavioral control and deal with their anxiety or their worries or their, whatever concerns they have that is much more natural and much more sympathetic with brain development. So essentially what this study apparently did not, it had--okay, the good part was that it was parent-based, but it was still along the lines of cognitive behavioral therapy because it involved the assumption that children's behaviors are deliberate and purposeful. We might think of that as willful and we can talk to them about it or put them on a reinforcement schedule for it. But to me that's the problem because not all behaviors are due to reinforcement. Jen: 13:31 Yeah. I love this ‘cause it's a bridge from where we've been to where we're going. So what I'm hearing you say is that the reason the study was as successful as it was was because of the involvement of parents. And maybe this helped parents to attune to their children a little better than they were before, which helped them to better support their child. And the reason it didn't work better is because we were using reinforcement. Dr. Delahooke: 13:54 That's a yes. Again, I'm not a researcher, but I'm going to go back and read that study. Yeah, I think that's a good guess because once you involve parents and especially if the parents have a gentle way with the child and look how were the parents doing the reinforcement, right? Was it gentle? Was it soothing? Was it calming the autonomic nervous system? Likely the artifacts of the study and the variables that they didn't measure may have been just as important as the reinforcements. Jen: 14:27 Yeah. Okay. All right, so now I understand a bit about where we've been. Jamie, do you want to kind of take us forward from here and delve into some of Dr. Delahooke’s ideas a little bit? Jamie: 14:35 Yeah, sure. I wanted to spend a good chunk of time drawing out your thinking on the idea that when we see behavior that is problematic or confusing, the first question we should ask isn't how do we get rid of it, but rather what is this telling us about the child? And I'd like to do this using a case study from your book of a child named Matthew. Jamie: 14:54 So to summarize, Matthew was late to start speaking and was diagnosed with autism. You observed him in a session in school when he was trying to get the attention of his aide who was next to him. When she didn't respond, he touched her arm and then she followed his IEP or individualized educational plan, which says she wasn't supposed to respond to non-preferred behaviors. So she moved away from him. He continued to try to get her attention. So she moved behind him and when he leaned back in his chair to see her, he fell over. So then the aide took Matthew to the calm down room, which was a small closet with a padded floor and you watched him through the one way window looking really flattened sad with his aide ignoring any interaction with him. So let's talk about what's going on here. What do you think that the teacher and the aide are seeing in this situation? And do you think that they see Matthew as being in conscious, volitional control of his actions? Dr. Delahooke: 15:48 Thank you for reading that Jamie. And it just brings, every time I hear it or listen to it, it brings me back to that moment to that classroom where I was sitting in the back of the room and using the lens that I now use. It felt like I was watching a slow moving car crash. So the answer to your question, did I think that they saw Matthew as being conscious and having volitional control of his actions? Absolutely. And let me just say that I have so much compassion for the teachers. I did and I do. And if anyone's listening today and you've heard me talk before, you know that this is a no blame, no shame space for me. I don't intend to have anyone feel bad about what they have done or the ways they approach children because it's in our cultural DNA to view behaviors on the surface. Dr. Delahooke: 16:47 So I'll just say that out front I don't mean to offend anybody with what I'm saying. I just need to add a layer of understanding to our current approaches. So when I looked around the room, when I saw that Matthew, his initial bid for attention, which was to try to grab the arm of his aide, that was viewed as a bad behavior because she was wanting him to listen to the teacher who was giving the lesson. But this was a child who had individual differences that compromised his ability to easily ask for things he did not have the words to do that and his motor system was also kind of roughly connected to his intention system, so the very best he could do was swat at his aide. And I saw that as a brilliant adaptation to him letting her know he needed something. Dr. Delahooke: 17:47 He either needed help or he was feeling uncomfortable or he needed to move. And when she moved away so that he couldn't touch her, I just thought, Oh wow, there we go, the behavior is being viewed as bad because it's noncompliant or because it's poorly understood. And what I wanted to do with that moment is say, let's celebrate that behavior. He needs you. Let's find out what this child needs at this moment. Anyway, as you read, when he started to increase his ability to grab her, then he's trying to grab her, which meant to me that his nervous system, his fight or flight system was engaged and he was actively trying to seek social engagement to feel better. She moved where he could not see her or touch her and he fell over and then they brought him to, it was called the calm down room, but it was really a timeout room. Dr. Delahooke: 18:45 There was nothing soothing about that room. So when I looked around the room I expected to see, or I guess I hoped to see adults in distress going, Oh my gosh, this poor child who can take him out and see what he needs. And instead what I saw was everybody ignoring the situation, which was how they were trained. It was on the child's IEP to ignore non-preferred behaviors. And so I believe they absolutely saw Matthew’s behaviors as volitional and that he had control over them. And what I saw was a stress response that started off slow, what I call the light green zone like he was still in social engagement. He was looking at her, he was trying to touch her and the aide was trained to understand that as a noncompliant behavior and it went south very fast and he ended up being punished for trying to reach out and that's why I put that story in the book. Jamie: 20:01 So, you wanna...Dr. Rose defines a Dark Horse as someone who uses a variety of unusual strategies like understanding their 'micromotives' and not worrying about their overall destination and to focus instead on more immediate goals to create a fulfilled life.
In his book he focuses on the paths adults have followed to become Dark Horses, which is almost invariably one of either:
But I wondered: rather than following either of these (highly frustrating!) paths, could we instead support our children much earlier in life to discover how their passions can lead them toward a fulfilling life, rather than forcing them through a standardized system and then making them figure it out on their own later?
Dr. Rose agreed that this would indeed be the preferable path, and we also talked about how to do this.
Dark Horse: Achieving Success Through the Pursuit of Fulfillment can be purchased in your local bookstore or on Amazon. (Affiliate link)Learning Membership
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All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more! Here is Dr. Rose's interview on The Art of Manliness, where you can learn more about how his approach could help you as an adult to become more of a Dark Horse [accordion] [accordion-item title="Click here to read the full transcript"] Jen 00:01:25 Hello and welcome to the Your Parenting Mojo podcast. Today's episode comes to us via a bit of a different route than they often do. A friend of mine actually heard our guests, Dr. Todd Rose on The Art of Manliness podcast and said, “Hey, you might want to listen to this because it sounds a lot like what you're trying to do with the way your daughter Carys learns”. And I listened to the episode and then I did something I've never done before. The message that I heard from Dr. Rose on the podcast made him feel like such a kindred spirit in terms of how we think about learning and work, that I reached out to him and asked him to talk with us even before I read his book. And rather than go over ground that's already been covered elsewhere, I'd really encourage you to go to this episode's page at YourParentingMojo.com/DarkHorse to find a link to that episode on The Art of Manliness because there's so much there to help adults discover and follow their passions if you're feeling unfulfilled in the work that you do and that you might need some help charting a different course. Jen 00:02:20 So, today we're going to look at the outcomes for what Dr. Rose calls dark horses, but we'll specifically focus on how we can support children in navigating their path to becoming a dark horse, which involves identifying your skills and true motivations and harnessing those to do work that you're truly passionate about. And on the related note, I wanted to let you know about a pilot program that I'm running that's open for signups right now. It's called Your Child's Learning Mojo and it will help parents to support their children's intrinsic motivation to learn. If your child is in the early preschool years right now, then you're probably inundated with their questions about the world, but research shows that by the early school years, children learn that their own questions aren't really valued anymore and what counts is whether they know the answers to questions that other people have asked and yet the ability to formulate questions and ask them and know how to find some initial answers and then circle back to a deeper level of questions and explore ideas with both depth and breadth and demonstrate that learning to communities that care about the topic is going to be a foundational set of skills for life 20 years from now and in the age of search engines, the ability to recall an answer is already pretty well obsolete. Jen 00:03:25 If we're worried about our children's success when they graduate from school and maybe college, then we might be tempted to teach them a skill like coding and while there are plenty of apps and afterschool clubs and summer camps that have popped up, which imply that if you aren't teaching your child to code, then you're making an error that says fundamental is not teaching them how to read. Developers tell us that coding isn't about getting the syntax of code right. It's about having an idea, proposing a solution, seeing if it works, delving deeply into an issue, developing creative solutions to problems and sticking with it when it repeatedly fails while you try different approaches and improve on them each time you take another run at it. Teaching the syntax of coding doesn't teach any of those skills, but harnessing your child's natural intrinsic motivation to learn does support the kinds of skills that will be needed to learn coding and complex problem solving and critical thinking and creativity and all of the other skills the experts know are really going to be important in the future. Jen 00:04:20 In their book Becoming Brilliant that we looked at way back in episode 10 psychologists, Dr. Roberta Golinkoff and Dr. Kathy Hirsh-Pasek argued that schools are doing really well at preparing our children for the kinds of jobs that existed in 1953 and there are some places where schools are beginning to shift their approach. But in general, being in school means mostly being tested on your ability to remember facts rather than developing the critical skills. So, if we want our children to have these critical skills, it's really on us as parents to make it happen. And the good news is that children come out already prime to develop these skills. We know they have boundless curiosity and they want to delve deeply into topics that interest them, whether it's dinosaurs or beading or construction. And if we can just learn how to become their guide on the side, who connects them to resources and helps them to deepen the work they're already doing, rather than the sage on the stage who provides all the answers, then we'll be able to help our children become the profoundly fulfilled dark horses that Dr. Rose will describe. Jen 00:05:20 I took a career coaching course a while back and I'm still in its Facebook group and almost without fail, the people who sign up for the course and introduce themselves, give some variation of the story, “I did well in school and I got a good job and I made quite a bit of money and now I'm approaching midlife I realized I'm really unsatisfied and I'm here to discover my true passion so I can live a life that feels meaningful to me.” So, as good as that career coaching course was and it was really good, my goal with this episode and with Your Child's Learning Mojo membership is to make that course obsolete for that purpose because instead of getting to midlife and realizing they're incredibly unfulfilled, our children will engage in activities and learning that fulfill them from the very beginning and as they live their lives, they'll continually reassess their passions and whether their work is in service of their passions and have the knowledge and ability and desire to make micro adjustments as they go along. Jen 00:06:09 So, they never reach that breaking point and instead they'll become dark horses who were truly connected to work that they find meaningful throughout their lives. So, if you'd like to learn more about how to do this, please do go to YourParentingMojo.com/LearningMojo to see how I will support you in this work. I'll teach you what's going on in children's minds when they learn and why the kinds of strewing activities that you see all over Pinterest are really just the very beginning of that process and don't help your children to learn much that's meaningful or connected to their own interests. We'll begin a learning journal that you can use to identify your child's interests and passions and then engage with these in a way that supports your child in developing the critical skills of the future. And we'll understand how to use nature as inspiration for developing questions and ideas and a sense of wonder. Jen 00:06:52 You'll become a member of a learning community of parents who will support each other in developing our own skills so we can help our children. And of course you'll get my guidance as well. So if you're interested in participating, please head on over to YourParentingMojo.com/LearningMojo for all the details and just sign up. The group is currently accepting new members through January 31st and we'll get started on February 1st. So to make a formal introduction to our guests today, Dr. Rose is a lecturer on education and leads the Laboratory for the Science of the Individual at Harvard University. His work is focused on the intersection of individuality and personalization applied to help people learn, work and live. He's the author of the books, The End of Average and most recently Dark Horse: Achieving Success Through the Pursuit of Fulfillment. Welcome Dr. Rose. Dr. Rose 00:07:36 Thanks for having me. Jen: 00:07:37 And so before we kind of dig into the real meat here, I wonder if you can set the stage by telling us what is a dark horse? Dr. Rose 00:07:45 Yeah. So from our work, we've found that sort of the traditional definition is really there are people who end up being successful that nobody saw coming, right? And that can be because they were viewed as failures early and then succeeded or because they end up being successful in one domain, but then make these pivots and ended up doing stuff that's completely different. And again, nobody sees them coming. Jen: 00:08:09 And in some ways this resonated with me so much when I read it because in a way I think of myself as a dark horse. You know, I got degrees from Berkeley and Yale and a job at a prestigious consulting company and I really did enjoy what I was doing for a while in sustainability consulting. But the work that I find really so fulfilling came after I got a Master's in Psychology, which was focused on Child Development and then another in Education and sharing this through the podcast with other people that, I mean it just keeps me going, keeps me getting up in the morning and I would never have seen that coming. Dr. Rose 00:08:43 You're hitting on something really important, which is like, you know, ever since the term dark horse was created quite a while ago to talk about things that are successful that no one sees coming, in our research in the dark horse project, this is exactly what we found, right? ‘Cause we were interested in why do these folks get off the beaten path and yet still end up surprising us and to a person, the thing that kept emerging was the way they thought about success in life. And rather than playing by sort of society's definition of success or somebody else's view, they were deeply focused on pursuing personal fulfillment. And given that it's so personal, it’s so individual, the things that light you up, it's not surprising in a standardized society that it often requires getting off the beaten path to make it happen. Jen 00:09:29 Yeah. And okay, so let's talk about that standardization because I mean this is a question that seems like it should be really simple, but of course it isn't and it has so much to do with learning and how we think about school. And so how do children, and we're thinking about children, but of course it's applicable to all people as well, how do they learn best? Dr. Rose 00:09:48 Yeah. It's funny, right? Because that seems like something that is so obvious, but in many ways it runs so counter to the way we actually educate. So if you think about some of the basics like it won't sound like rocket science, right? Not surprisingly, kids that are learning in ways that are engaging to them are going to learn better. That sounds almost silly, silly obvious, but it is surprising how much we neglect that. So if you're engaged, if you're motivated, which I think are related at the same thing, if the learning is contextualized in a relevant way, right? So it's not just abstracted away from your real life but deeply embedded into it when people are more active rather than passively learning. And one of the things that's really important is the extent to...I’m taking a hiatus from the show; in this episode I explain why and what you can do to help make sure it comes back strong in 2020!
Here’s the form to complete if you’re interested in learning more about the yet-to-be-named pilot membership to support children’s interest-led learning at home: https://forms.gle/GGKgdwaLkEfNfMA27
This is the third episode in our series on parental relationships – and the lack thereof… We started with episode 35, which was called “All Joy and No Fun,” where we learned how children can be one of the greatest joys of a parent’s life – but that all the daily chores and struggles can get on top of us and make parenting – both in terms of our relationship with our child and our spouse – something that isn’t necessarily much fun in the moment. And if you missed that episode you might want to go back and check it out, because I walked you through a research-based idea I’ve been using to increase the amount of fun I have while I’m hanging out with my daughter, who was a toddler when I recorded that episode.
Then we took a turn for the worse in episode 36 and looked at the impact of divorce on children’s development, and we learned that it can have some negative impacts for some children, although the majority are pretty resilient and do make it through a divorce OK. For the last episode in the long-delayed conclusion to this mini-series we’re going to take a look at what happens after divorce – things like single parenting and remarriage and stepfamilies, that can also have large impacts on children’s lives. We’ll spend a good chunk of the show looking at things that stepfamilies can do to be more successful.
References Braithwaite, D.O., Olson, L.N., Golish, T.D., Soukup, C., & Turman, P. 001). “Becoming a family”: Developmental processes represented in blended family discourse. Journal of Applied Communication Research 29(3), 221-247.I can hardly believe we made it to this point: the 100th episode of the Your Parenting Mojo podcast!
Join me for a special celebration of the show, featuring questions (from you!) and answers (from me!), clips of some of my favorite episodes, some fun at NPR interviewer Terry Gross’ expense, the occasional Monty Python reference, a story about how Carys got her name that you won’t want to miss.
Bauer, M.D. (2009). Martin Luther King, Jr. New York, NY: Scholastic.
Bickford, J.H., & Rich, C.W. (2014). Examining the representation of slavery within children’s literature. Social Studies Research and Practice 9(1), 66-94.
Bickford, J.H., & Rich, C.W. (2015). The historical representation of Thanksgiving within primary- and intermediate-level children’s literature. Journal of Children’s Literature 41(1), 5-21.
Bickford, J.H. (2015). Assessing and addressing historical misrepresentations within children’s literature about the Civil Rights Movement. The History Teacher 48(4), 693-736.
Bickford, J.H., & Schuette, L.N. (2016). Trade books’ historical representation of the Black Freedom Movement, slavery through civil rights. Journal of Children’s Literature 42(1), 20-43.
Bickford, J. (2018). Primary elementary students’ historical literacy, thinking, and argumentation about Helen Keller and Anne Sullivan. The History Teacher 51(2), 269-292.
Marzollo, J., & Pinkney, J.B. (1993). Happy Birthday Martin Luther King. New York, NY: Scholastic.
Southern Poverty Law Center (2019). Anti-racism activity: ‘The Sneetches.’ Author. Retrieved from https://www.tolerance.org/classroom-resources/tolerance-lessons/antiracism-activity-the-sneetches
Southern Poverty Law Center (2019). Classroom simulations: Proceed with caution. Author. Retrieved from https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/spring-2008/classroom-simulations-proceed-with-caution
LIFE Center (2005). “The LIFE Center’s Lifelong and Lifewide Diagram.” Retrieved from: http://life-slc.org/about/citationdetails.html
It's Not About the Broccoli: Three Habits to Teach Your Kids for a Lifetime of Healthy Eating. (Affiliate link)
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Get tools and strategies to support your child’s love of learning and future-proof their success in navigating whatever comes their way. No special skills needed—just a willingness to explore alongside them.
All the usual stuff applies - sliding scale pricing, money back guarantee. Enrollment will open again soon. Click the banner to learn more!En liten tjänst av I'm With Friends. Finns även på engelska.