Podd: Boys In The Cave

Episode 124 - Is the Special Envoy Combating Islamophobia? | Dr. Yassir Morsi

10 april 2025 | 87 min

We’re joined by Dr. Yassir Morsi and Faraz to unpack the controversial role of Aftab Malik, Australia’s Special Envoy to Combat Islamophobia.

What does this position truly represent? Is it a genuine step toward justice, or is it entangled in state-driven narratives of governance and social cohesion?

We explore the political architecture behind CVE (Countering Violent Extremism), the historical context of Islamophobia, and why certain forms of “anti-racism” can actually perpetuate systemic control.

From internalized Islamophobia to the policing of dissent within our own communities, this episode is a deep dive into the uncomfortable truths that need to be heard.

📌 Topics Covered:

The political function of the Special Envoy role
Structural vs. interpersonal Islamophobia
CVE, social cohesion, and soft state control
Why truth and resistance are sidelined for strategy
The economy of representation & Muslim complicity

👤 About Dr. Yassir Morsi

Dr. Yassir Morsi is a prominent political scholar, academic, and public intellectual known for his critical perspectives on race, Islam, and the politics of representation in Western societies.

With a PhD in Politics, Dr. Morsi has dedicated his career to examining the intersections of colonialism, Islamophobia, and the lived experiences of Muslim communities in the West.

He is a leading voice in challenging mainstream narratives around Muslim identity, democracy, and political engagement, often critiquing the limitations of liberal democratic systems in addressing systemic racism and inequality.

Dr. Morsi’s work emphasizes the importance of self-determination, community power, and the need for Muslims to rethink their relationship with state structures.

As a lecturer and researcher, Dr. Morsi has contributed extensively to academic and public discourse, blending rigorous scholarship with accessible commentary.

He is also a sought-after speaker and has been featured in various media outlets, podcasts, and community forums, where he continues to advocate for a more nuanced understanding of Muslim political agency.

🕳️ About the Podcast Boys In The Cave is an independent platform exploring faith, politics, culture, and the pressing issues confronting the modern Muslim mind. Subscribe to join the conversation!

🔔 Like, Share, Comment & Subscribe to stay connected.

Subscribe to Boys in the Cave Podcast for more insightful discussions on politics, culture, and community. Don’t forget to like, share, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on our latest episodes!

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

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Timestamps

00:00 Intro 03:45 Faraz’s meeting with Aftab & the ISRA event fallout 10:20 Why Aftab took the role: Good faith or political naivety? 15:30 Structural Islamophobia vs. individual ignorance 20:50 Postmodernism, Marxism & the dismissal of race critics 26:15 Islamophobia as governance, not just hate 31:40 Internalized Islamophobia and Muslim respectability politics 37:00 CVE, counter-terrorism & the state's soft power tools 42:30 Social cohesion or social control? 48:15 Economic incentives: grants, representation & compromise 54:40 Palestine, performance politics & selective solidarity 1:00:05 The illusion of power: managing Muslims through “inclusion” 1:05:25 Community complicity, careerism & soft censorship 1:11:40 Can we engage power without selling out? 1:17:10 Yassir on state-approved anti-racism & Islamic resistance 1:22:30 Faraz: The ecosystem of control & Muslim leadership 1:26:00 Conclusion

Episode 123 - Do Muslim Votes Matter? | Dr. Yassir Morsi

23 mars 2025 | 111 min

We dive deep into the "Muslim Vote Matters" (MVM) movement in Australia.

Joined by special guest Dr. Yassir Morsi, a renowned political scholar and critic, we unpack the complexities of Muslim political engagement, the challenges of representation, and the broader implications of voting in a settler-colonial state.

From the aftermath of Gaza to the role of democracy in shaping Muslim identity, this conversation challenges the status quo and asks: Is voting enough to create real change?

We explore the pitfalls of over-reliance on electoral politics, the dangers of miseducation, and the need for self-determination within the Muslim community.

Whether you're a supporter of MVM or a skeptic, this episode offers a balanced, critical, and engaging discussion that will leave you questioning the systems we live in and the power we hold as a community.

Key Topics Covered:

The rise of the Muslim Vote Matters movement
The limitations of electoral politics in addressing systemic issues
The role of community self-determination vs. reliance on government
The impact of Gaza and Palestine on Muslim political consciousness
The dangers of miseducation and victim-blaming in political activism

Dr. Yassir Morsi is a prominent political scholar, academic, and public intellectual known for his critical perspectives on race, Islam, and the politics of representation in Western societies.

With a PhD in Politics, Dr. Morsi has dedicated his career to examining the intersections of colonialism, Islamophobia, and the lived experiences of Muslim communities in the West.

He is a leading voice in challenging mainstream narratives around Muslim identity, democracy, and political engagement, often critiquing the limitations of liberal democratic systems in addressing systemic racism and inequality.

Dr. Morsi’s work emphasizes the importance of self-determination, community power, and the need for Muslims to rethink their relationship with state structures.

As a lecturer and researcher, Dr. Morsi has contributed extensively to academic and public discourse, blending rigorous scholarship with accessible commentary.

He is also a sought-after speaker and has been featured in various media outlets, podcasts, and community forums, where he continues to advocate for a more nuanced understanding of Muslim political agency.

Join the Conversation:

What are your thoughts on the Muslim Vote Matters movement? Do you believe voting can create real change, or is it time to rethink our approach to political engagement? Share your thoughts in the comments below!

Subscribe to Boys in the Cave Podcast for more insightful discussions on politics, culture, and community. Don’t forget to like, share, and hit the notification bell to stay updated on our latest episodes!

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Check out our book club! - https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave/membership

Check out our website – boysinthecave.com

Follow us on: Facebook –https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter – @boysinthecave Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Timestamps

00:00 Intro 00:10 The Rise of Muslim Vote Matters 05:00 The Vacuum of Muslim Representation 10:00 Educating the Muslim Community 15:00 Yassir’s Critique of MVM 20:00 The Illusion of Electoral Power 25:00 Failure of Interfaith Dialogue & CVE 30:00 The Myth of the Muslim Voting Bloc 35:00 Over-Identifying with Democracy 40:00 Anger and Grief in Activism 45:00 Need for Self-Determination 50:00 Islamic Schools & Palestinian History 55:00 Fantasy of a Muslim Voting Bloc 60:00 Appropriating Gaza’s Rage 65:00 Punishing Labor in a Two-Party System 70:00 Community-Building Over Voting 75:00 Internal Community Accountability 80:00 Shaming Muslims into Voting 85:00 The Role of Critics in Movements 90:00 The Need for Community Consultation 95:00 The Psychological Impact of Oppression 100:00 The Failure of Islamic Institutions 105:00 The Importance of Political Education 110:00 Outro

Episode 122 - Tunnels, Takbirs & Triumphs: The Untold Stories of Syria’s Liberation | Kaleem Bullivant

14 mars 2025 | 97 min

In this powerful episode, Kaleem Bullivant joins the show to share his firsthand experiences from the heart of Syria’s revolution.

From the emotional journey of boarding the "Party Plane" to Damascus - the first flight into a liberated Syria - to the miraculous stories of resilience and divine intervention on the frontlines, Kaleem paints a vivid picture of a nation rising from decades of oppression.

We delve into the strategic brilliance behind the revolution’s military victories, including the astonishing tale of 350 fighters taking on 30,000 regime soldiers in Hama.

Kaleem also reflects on the profound spiritual and communal transformations taking place, especially during the first Ramadan in a free Syria, where the echoes of adhan and the spirit of unity fill the air.

This episode isn’t just about Syria - it’s a testament to the power of resistance, faith, and the unbreakable bonds of the Ummah. From the tunnels of Idlib to the streets of Gaza, the Syrian revolution serves as a beacon of hope and a reminder that freedom is worth fighting for.

Join us as we explore the stories, struggles, and triumphs of a people who refused to be silenced.

Kaleem Bullivant is human rights activist, and campaigner against the excesses of the war on terror. Winner of the liberty Human Rights Activist of the Year award, Kaleem has worked on many groundbreaking news stories with the BBC, CNN, Channel 4 News amongst others.

Timestamps:

00:00:10 Introduction and lighthearted banter.

00:02:08 Kaleem’s experiences in Syria and the state of infrastructure post-revolution.

00:05:45 Development in Idlib compared to the rest of Syria.

00:13:01 Kaleem’s personal journey and why he felt compelled to go to Syria.

00:17:14 The historic "Party Plane" to Damascus.

00:21:23 Celebrations and emotions upon arriving in Syria.

00:29:15 Stories of oppression under the Assad regime.

00:37:10 Miraculous stories of hope and divine intervention during imprisonment.

00:56:52 The military strategy behind the revolution’s victories, including the battle for Hama.

01:15:38 Addressing accusations about external involvement in the revolution.

01:26:01 The significance of the 13-year revolution and its parallels to Islamic history.

01:29:15 Celebrating the first Ramadan in a free Syria.

01:32:11 The revolution’s connection to Palestine and the broader Ummah.

Episode 121 - Hikmah Medicine, Trauma Therapy & Holistic Spiritual Healing | Dr. Mazen Atassi

7 september 2024 | 173 min

Episode 120 - New Age Spirituality, Masculinity & Religious Obsessive Compulsive Disorder | Shaykh Abdullah Anik Misra

17 augusti 2024 | 128 min

Episode 119 - Mohammed Hijab, Andrew Tate, Dawah Bro Simps, Racism, Far-Right & UK Riots | Kaleem Bullivant

12 augusti 2024 | 142 min

Episode 118 - Language of Resistance, Communal Islam & The Nation of Islam | Brother Ali

1 augusti 2024 | 86 min

Episode 117 - Comprehensive Analysis of the Bangladesh Student Quota Protests

29 juli 2024 | 81 min

Episode 116 - Escaping Capitalist Mysticism & The Pitfalls of Western Psychology | Seyed Jamaluddin Miri

12 juli 2024 | 103 min

Episode 115 - Spirituality, Artistry & Islamic Calligraphy | Ustadh Rizwan Ahmed Khan

29 juni 2024 | 161 min

Episode 114 - Sufis & Politics of the Mughal Empire | Professor Richard M. Eaton

3 juni 2024 | 170 min

Episode 113 - Metaphysical Reality & Quranic Truths | Mohammed Isaaq

30 december 2023 | 126 min

Episode 112 - Palestine, Narratives & Alliances | Dr. Uthman Badar

16 november 2023 | 141 min

Episode 111 - Palestine, Oppression & Navigating Political Discourse | Dr. Yassir Morsi

8 november 2023 | 165 min

Episode 110 - Salvation, Martin Luther & Christian Theology | Abdullah Kunde

22 februari 2023 | 158 min

Episode 109 - Path of Empathy, Anger & Unconscious Behaviours | Tanzim

29 oktober 2022 | 89 min

Episode 108 - Political Figures of Hindustan, Decolonising the Mind & Reflections | Tanzim, Josh & Rafael

31 juli 2022 | 169 min

Episode 107 - Is Decolonisation Possible Without Love? Healing In A Secular World | Mohamad Tabbaa

13 juni 2022 | 243 min

Episode 106 - Jihad, Caravan Raids & The Jews of Medina | Professor Joel Hayward

31 maj 2022 | 203 min

Episode 105 - The Legacy of The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ | Shaykh Mohammad Elshinawy

25 maj 2022 | 89 min

Episode 104 - Is Islam Political & Spiritual? | Tanzim & Rafael

19 april 2022 | 103 min

Episode 103 - Why Do Good People Go To Hell? | Tanzim & Rafael

17 mars 2022 | 99 min

Episode 102 - China, Authoritarianism & The Uyghurs | Arslan Hidayat

19 februari 2022 | 87 min

Episode 101 - The Cultural Imperative of Islam, The Metaphysical Dimension & The Trad Bros | Roundtable

29 januari 2022 | 117 min

Episode 100 - Issues with Mohammed Hijab - Jordan Peterson Podcast & Khabibian Dawah | Roundtable

18 december 2021 | 164 min

Episode 99 - Impacts of Activism, Representation in Media & Politics of Sport | Ryma Tchier

13 december 2021 | 125 min

Episode 98 - Ibn Hazm, The Unconscious Mind & Love | Rafael & Tanzim

28 november 2021 | 158 min

Episode 97 - Islamic Bioethics, Gene Editing & Linguistics | Heraa Hashmi

13 november 2021 | 129 min

Episode 96 - Post-9/11 World, War on Terror & Travelling Home | Dr. Yassir Morsi

12 september 2021 | 128 min

Episode 95 - Narcissism, Healing & Red Flags | Naureen Ahmed

30 augusti 2021 | 150 min

Episode 94 - Political Future for Islam, Biblical Scriptures, William Lane Craig & The Mujassima | Abdullah Kunde

15 augusti 2021 | 268 min

Episode 93 - The Akh-Right, LGBTQ & Liberalism | Asadullah Ali

1 augusti 2021 | 142 min

Episode 92 - Capitalism, Structural Racism & Political Reading of The Seerah | Tanzim & Josh

18 juli 2021 | 95 min

Episode 91 - Systemic Oppression, Colonisation & Neo-Traditionalism | Nadeem Dawud

3 juli 2021 | 194 min

Episode 90 - Masculinity, Feminism & Racism | Rafael & Tanzim

21 juni 2021 | 149 min

Episode 89 - Miracles, Awliya & Tariqas | Danish Qasim

5 juni 2021 | 138 min

Episode 88 - Spirituality, Rationality & Reason | Shaykh Abdurraheem Green

18 april 2021 | 116 min

Episode 87 - Fifty Shades of Disbelief | Abdulah Hamimi

4 april 2021 | 99 min

Episode 86 - Socio-Political Realities, Postmodernism & Hizb ut-Tahrir | Dr. Yassir Morsi

6 mars 2021 | 153 min

Episode 85 – Human Rights, Morality & Modern Legal Systems | Dr. Salim Farrar

13 februari 2021 | 80 min

Episode 84 - From Bodybuilding Champion To Da'ee | Ahmad Wadi

31 januari 2021 | 84 min

Episode 83 - Mind Palace, Imagination & The Power of The Mind | Tansel Ali

16 januari 2021 | 80 min

Episode 82 - Islam In West Africa, Racism & Arabisation of Islam | Mustafa Briggs

2 januari 2021 | 138 min

Episode 81 - Ghadir Khumm, The Battle of Karbala & Madkhalism | Bro Hajji

19 december 2020 | 124 min

Episode 80 - Muslim Political Consciousness, Political Engagement & Christianity | Abdullah Kunde

5 december 2020 | 72 min

Episode 79 - Struggles, Faith & Path To Success | Hazem El Masri

21 november 2020 | 74 min

Episode 78 - Revisionist History, Academia & Political Stances | Dr. Jonathan A.C. Brown

7 november 2020 | 109 min

Episode 77 - Activism, Racism & Malcolm X | Momodou Taal

24 oktober 2020 | 130 min

Episode 76 - A Western Islam, Political Ideals & Feminism | Aisha Hasan & Sarah Bellal

10 oktober 2020 | 167 min

Episode 75 - Philosophy of Fiqh, Psychology & Astrology | Dr. Asim Yusuf

26 september 2020 | 162 min

Episode 74 - Representation, Media & Feminism | Sana Saeed

12 september 2020 | 148 min

Episode 73 - Generation Next: Revival of the Youth | Zain Siddiqi

29 augusti 2020 | 116 min

Episode 72 - Greek Philosophy, Ibn Arabi & Psychoanalysis | Dr. Samir Mahmoud

15 augusti 2020 | 165 min

Episode 71 - Reclaiming Islamic Poetry | Sharghzadeh & Zirrar

1 augusti 2020 | 142 min

Episode 70 - Atheism, God's Plan & Embracing Suffering | Abdulah Hamimi

18 juli 2020 | 170 min

Episode 69 - Gay Identity, Oppression & Human Rights | Mohamad Tabbaa

4 juli 2020 | 204 min

Episode 68 - Racism, Culture & Comedy | Aamer Rahman

20 juni 2020 | 140 min

Episode 67 - Decolonisation & The Alt-Right | Hizer Ali Mir

1 juni 2020 | 86 min

Episode 66 - Holistic Health & The Four Temperaments | Naturopath Naimah

23 maj 2020 | 176 min

Episode 65 - Orientalism, Modernity & Muhammad Iqbal | Saaleh Baseer

10 maj 2020 | 133 min

Episode 64 - Perspectives, Frameworks & The Universals | Mohammed Isaaq

25 april 2020 | 119 min

Episode 63 - Love, Family & Marriage | Shaykh Yahya Ibrahim

11 april 2020 | 65 min

Relationships, Nafs, The Youth, Family Ties and much more!

We touch on all these diverse topics with Shaykh Yahya Ibrahim.

Shaykh Yahya Ibrahim serves Head of Islamic Studies & Asst. Principal at Langford Islamic College, Senior Imam at Thornlie Mosque, Islamic Chaplain at Curtin University & the University of Western Australia and lecturer for the internationally acclaimed al Maghrib Institute.

Imam Yahya is a Minister of Religion, empowered to officiate marriages for the Australian Islamic community. He is Canadian by birth, Egyptian through ancestry, Turkish via marriage, and Australian by choice of residence and migration. His religious training began in Toronto wherein he committed the Quran to memory & studied Fiqh/Jurisprudence upon the principles of Imam Shafi’ee’s Madh-haab.

Over the years, beginning 1993, Imam Yahya has continued to further his study of Islam by meeting, translating and traveling to scholars in Egypt & Hijaz & South East Asia. Throughout that time he has received Tazkiyah and Ijazah to instruct in a variety of Islamic disciplines – Hadith, Fiqh and Quranic sciences. Although, Imam Yahya is known for his spiritually uplifting discussions and addressing topics of Quranic exegesis, Sunnah and tradition and juristic limitations, he is passionate also presenting on non-conventional topics including domestic violence, misogyny, gender discrimination, child protection, respectful relationships, disability and mental health. Reflecting his dedication to these goals, Imam Yahya was awarded the West Australian Multicultural Community Service Award for Individual Excellence in 2013. He is also a guest contributor for Yaqeen Institute for Islamic Research.

Hosts : Tanzim & Ramet

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Shaykh Yahya’s online presence

www.twitter.com/yahya_ibrahim

www.facebook.com/yahya.adel.ibrahim

www.muslimmatters.org/author/yahya

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Episode 62 - Hudud, Jinn & Rape In Sharia Law | Dr. Jonathan Brown

28 mars 2020 | 107 min

Episode 61 - The Future for Islam, Racism & Activism | Dr. Shadee Elmasry

14 mars 2020 | 188 min

Episode 60 - The Atheist Playbook | Subboor Ahmad

29 februari 2020 | 173 min

Episode 59 - From The Revisionists To The Rulers | Adnan Rashid

15 februari 2020 | 107 min

Episode 58 - The Jinn, The Unseen World & The End of Times | Shaykh Omar Baloch

1 februari 2020 | 149 min

Episode 57 - Islam & Africa | Mohammed Abdullah Artan

19 januari 2020 | 89 min

Episode 56 - The Natural Prophetic Way | Shaykh Hassan Elsetohy & Geoff Lawton

4 januari 2020 | 60 min

Episode 55 - Mission Impossible: Uniting The Ummah | Shaykh Osta

22 december 2019 | 80 min

Episode 54 - Homosexuality, Feminism & Colonialism | Mohamad Tabbaa

7 december 2019 | 102 min

Episode 53 - The Spiritual Dimension | Ahmed Karat

24 november 2019 | 137 min

Episode 52 - The Epic Clash! Racism, Modernity & The Left-Right Divide | Dr. Yassir Morsi vs. Murtaza Siddiqui

4 november 2019 | 125 min

Episode 51 – Identity & Secularism | Ismail Royer

27 oktober 2019 | 73 min

Episode 50 – Oppression, Secularism & Modernity | Uthman Badar

13 oktober 2019 | 118 min

Episode 49 - The Muslim Tech CEO | Ashik Ahmed

28 september 2019 | 61 min

Episode 48 - Unjustly Jailed | Ismail al-Wahwah

14 september 2019 | 84 min

Episode 47 - Kashmir, Shias & Ilhan Omar | Dilly Hussain

31 augusti 2019 | 119 min

Episode 46 - The Self, Spirituality, Metaphysics & The Divine | Mohammed Isaaq

17 augusti 2019 | 189 min

The Science of the Four Temperaments, The Spiritual & The Material, Knowing your Self, Psychology, the True Reality, Adherence to the Sunnah, Relationships, Personal Experiences.

We discuss all this in-depth with Mohammed Isaaq.

Mohammed Isaaq is a student of knowledge, and has studied the science of the temperaments alongside his traditional studies. He has been teaching Arabic studies, Theology, and is heavily involved in community projects such as the OpenCircle youth initiative and Ghazali Children's Project.

Hosts : Tanzim & Malik

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Check out our website - boysinthecave.com

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

Check out Mizan Avenue!

https://www.facebook.com/mizanavenue/

https://www.instagram.com/mizan_avenue/

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Mohammed Isaaq's Visibility

https://www.mohammedisaaq.com/

https://www.facebook.com/isaaq.mohammed

https://www.instagram.com/isaaq.mohammed/

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Shownotes

Tanzim: 00:00:01 Assalamu Alaykum Welcome back to another of boys in the cave. My name is Tanzim your cohost for today and I'm also joined by a special cohost. Many of you may know him in Sydney, Malik. Um, he's the founder of Mizan Avenue in Sydney. MashAllah has a lot of stories to share, so I'm really excited for this and Alhamdullilah he also does amazing work in the community. And I'll put the links to Mizan Avenue in our show notes in shaa Allah, everyone around the world can inshallah check it out and alhamdullilah We're joined by someone very special today. Our special guests is Isaaq Muhammad. He's a secondary school mathematics teacher by profession, student of knowledge and has studied the science of the temperament alongside his traditional studies. He has been teaching Arabic Studies, theology and he's heavily involved in community projects such as the open circle youth initiative and Ghazali children's projects so Assalamu alaykum Isaaq and umm Malik and welcome to boys in the cave (Walaykum Assalam). Um, I know you touched down not too long ago in Sydney. Uh, and he did a workshop actually with the four temperaments and that was sold out aye Malik,

Malik: 00:01:26 yea subhanAllah It's sold out. The first one sold out in less than 48 hours. And then we open up another session the following day and that also sold out. Um, it was an incredible, incredible workshop, but I'll let them hammer talk about that.

Tanzim: 00:01:38 Yes, I have. How'd you find, well, how was the experience with that? Just come to Sydney and teaching the courses?

Isaaq: 00:01:43 Yeah, it was, um, it was nice. Uh, they actually asked me yesterday, um, you know, how was this different to the other ones? And I think, um, you know, I, I thought about it quite a bit and I think, uh, I just felt like the, the crowd, the audience, uh, the seekers, the students already, I felt like they were ready and that that 48 hours, the fact that the tickets were sold out in 40 hours for the first program just shows and reflect the intentions of the people. Because when they saw that it wasn't really based off of actually having studied the four temperaments or having sat in a class with me or something. But it was them reading the title, knowing yourself and they had a plea when they signed up to a law saying I would like to know myself. And it's also the intentions. It's always in the intentions. They can anything in any person, in any thing for anything to be off something. It's in the intentions when the intentions are there, the act has a weight to it. When the intentions aren't there. Then you miss out on on really taking anything from the act,

Tanzim: 00:02:46 Mashallah and with, because you open up the washer on Saturday, I think you did the Sunday one because he got sold out. It seems like people around the world, cause you've traveled around the world going to different cities. People are really yearning for this sort of stuff. Yeah. And what's your experience been about that in particular at this point in time?

Isaaq: 00:03:03 Well you think that, you know, after having taught the same class 20 times in over like seven countries, that it would get boring or it would get repetitive or in some way it would be come a bit mundane and that energy wouldn't be there. And he witnessed the two classes on the weekend and he also witnessed how different both classes were. Because when it's knowing yourself, then it's your responses as someone who's in the class you, it's your journey. The teachers, there is only there to facilitate, but it's your journey and whatever. And however you respond on whatever steps you take and how strong your steps are, how from your sub site and your responses and your engagement in the workshop. It's not that it's for six hours or for four hours. I mean, people who study full time would have a difficult time to see in one class for six hours straight.

Isaaq: 00:03:49 But when it's a workshop, uh, there's far more engagement and in that's why each of them have been very different. Every single second. Not one session has been the same for me in, in all these different places. And that's why, uh, you know, it's, it's uh Alhamdullilah, you know, the response of people is the success of, and I always share it with people like the role responses. Um, and it's amazing. It's on it, it's a pleasure to just have like facilitated it by whatever degree, but it's them just getting closer to themselves and the so much in that

Tanzim: 00:04:19 and molecule actually in the classes. How was your experience in general and just for the audience, can you clarify what is hoc kind of cities huck a specializes in?

Malik: 00:04:28 I'll get him to clarify that, but what I'll talk about is pretty much the, yeah, for my experience. I think the program, and I was speaking to Isaaq about this yesterday, that you know, a lot of times where we do classes, um, you know, a lot of the teachers are pretty much articulating what our tradition says and sometimes it can get very theoretical. But what I found with this program was that it was very practical and he forced people to really, uh, to think about their relationship with themselves first and then their relationship with the last panel town. And in that it was very confronting for, even for myself. And I've sat through these, uh, previously as well, and I've known him for quite some time and he's explained, um, you know, the four temperaments and the science, uh, to me, but Sydney for the program, it is quite confining and you're starting to pick up on things that you knew about yourself, but it was like you're doing like subconsciously, uh, and then you starting to realize, you know, this is my temperament, these are my weaknesses. And being really real with yourself with what your weaknesses are. And then starting starting to think about, you know, how can I motivate those weaknesses? Um, and how can I, you know, just be real with myself. Um, so I think for a lot of people that was confronting, but there was a lot of beauty in that because it's now I have to be real with myself so I can get closer to my Lord. Uh, so I think that was incredible.

Isaaq: 00:05:59 Um, but yeah, I think Muhammad, uh, for those who don't know about the science of four temperaments, uh, could you explain that? Yeah. Um, so the science itself is, uh, is one that goes back around two and a half thousand years, uh, all the way to the group, all the, all the way to the Greeks actually. Um, and it was originally, uh, looked at from a physician's perspective, uh, how do we deal with the human beings condition physiologically. So there's illnesses that start to come about, um, uh, there's illnesses and how can we treat those illnesses. So it's foundations were in traditional medicine. Um, but as it continued, there was also other theories that were coming about, such as Plato in, in, in his republic, he speaks about four chief virtues. Um, so there was separate discoveries sort of taking place, um, in different theories and studies of the human being of the human condition and all these different, uh, from these different perspectives.

Isaaq: 00:06:51 But as time went on, the, you know, scientists of these, of these, uh, sciences started to make connections. And especially when been seen, our came under, the Muslims came across the science because the science was in line with the [inaudible]. So this was [inaudible], you know, the, the Greek medicine. But it was in line with prophetic medicine. Um, but they also started to make these connections between these four temperaments, these four chief temperaments, uh, and, uh, the behavior of a human being. And it was in line with what the teachings of the prophets [inaudible] was. So you had the contributions by someone like even been seen. And then in mammoth has Ali, if you look at in the disciplining the soul, he's, he's actually referring to the four chief virtues and how they are, how they correlate to the human being, these four temperaments. So, you know, the science was vast.

Isaaq: 00:07:39 And then you had many other scholars, uh, [inaudible] sooty many scholars who wrote a book on [inaudible] but also books in other sciences such as interfere books. Uh, these four temperaments are actually referenced. And there was a student who actually came to me and he said, he said, I'm so glad you're teaching this stuff. Uh, he said, because when I was studying to see, um, he said, I started looking at these terms and it's demo he and balcony. And he said, I hadn't had, I didn't have a clue what that means. Uh, he's a technically when I read the mov, Eh, the translation was like a bloody person them, right. And Belica me was a Flemmi person. What does that mean? The Flemmi temperament. So there's so [inaudible] and anyone who wrote it of seed was a polymath. So they had studied the sciences. That's why they were referencing the sciences.

Isaaq: 00:08:28 And if you do study tough series, you have to be qualified to have studied all these other sciences to truly understand what that [inaudible] is saying. But anyway, and so, so that's its role in our tradition. And it was continued all the way to two. When modern medicine came, it was sort of rejected only because certain things weren't, um, weren't seen by, by scientists who, you know, it's empiricism, it's, uh, what can we see a and see because they couldn't see certain of the four fluids and they rejected it. However, in psychology it's pretty much there. Um, but the science itself, to put it simply, it's essentially is essentially saying that all human beings have these four fluids within them. And one of them is a dominant one is a sub dominant, and then the other two are there. So in each of us we have this and this combination results in, in who you are.

Isaaq: 00:09:12 This is your nature as opposed to your as a, as a p as opposed to your nurture. So are nurturing could be different, but your natures are the same. And if you work out your temperament and you can work out, for example, if you two here had the same nature though, you would think you're also different via your nurturing. You would say for example, son tonight I want to go to the cinema. And he would say, I want to go to the theater. That's because of your nurturing. You're probably used to cinemas and he's used to the theater. Um, but if you look at your nature, your nature might be sanguine for example, that likes entertainment. And so we can find out that where you guys meet. And that's the beauty of the science is all about universals. It's not about the particulars that we experienced as human beings.

Isaaq: 00:09:51 It's the universals. And once you get into the universals and anyone has experienced universals, it's one of the most powerful tools you can ever get. The Koran hadith all university speaking, uh, Rumi's poetry, universal. Most poetry spoke poetry universals. That's why they, they appeal to different human beings of different backgrounds, right? Because it's speaking to me at a universal level and that's what this, it gives you the tools. It gave me the tools that I never had any intention to actually put this workshop together. Originally, I just used the science where I studied it and I wanted to just, um, eh, I just used it upon myself for a number of years. I'd say about three years. I just used it on myself. And when I came back, uh, one of my sisters actually, she wasn't really convinced in the science because she wasn't settled in. She was, she's at a particular temperament now.

Isaaq: 00:10:42 It makes sense to me why she wasn't convinced. And eventually after looking at her through this lens, I realized she's a melancholic. So she needs the detailed explanations upon a lot. So I put the detailed explanation together for her. And I invited the friends and family and they all came and they loved it because everyone finds themselves. And when I show it show, it comes to this, he said, he goes, ah, do you know why the Beatles are so successful? Because each of them with a full clear archetypes of the four temperaments. So Parnell, and so when, when people saw them, they saw a complete group first and foremost. And secondly, everyone could appeal to them. And, and this isn't just exclusive to that. I mean, in the Catholic tradition, they was sitting temperaments six months before people would get married, just so they can understand the enough's their universal, that they're the part of themselves that just doesn't really entirely change.

Isaaq: 00:11:34 Uh, and so it's, it's crucial. This is the science and, um, you know, many, uh, you know, Shit. Yeah. Here I was saying that it's, it's, uh, it's a, of a, it's, it's extremely important for parents to know the temperaments of their children so they can look after them properly as well. You know, and if you have two different temperament in the same household who have the same nurture, they have two different, very, two different experiences in the same household. And you ever come across that two siblings in the same household, same nurturing, the two very different experiences. One of the, one of them says, ah, they just didn't get me. They just don't get me. And the other one stays [inaudible] right? [inaudible] and then the other one says, uh, why are you weird? Why don't you just accept things that look as perfect mom and dad did a, you know, it's a friend did a good job, but it works.

Isaaq: 00:12:22 But it works for your temperament. It doesn't work for the other one's temperament. And we've spoken about the same temperaments on a macro level, on a, uh, on a political, geopolitical level. Looking at this, it's just that the scope of it is so vast. Seoul vast, uh, you can look at understanding political positions by or temperaments. You can look at people reacting to uh, global, uh, or at least, uh, you know, certain events within their communities and that their responses are actually temperament based and to [inaudible] on a macro level and on a micro level, on a, a within a household. How do people respond within the household and then how do you respond with yourself? And that's what we do at the knowing of program is to sit with yourself first and foremost. You know, mostly people do these personality and I've going on quite a bit, but people do these personality tests.

Isaaq: 00:13:14 People say to me, why don't you put a questionnaire in the workshop? I say, because mostly when people do question is just lying to themselves. It's just what they want. And I always say to people, when we did ask those questions in the work, I asked these universal based questions after they've done a lot of reflecting and ask these questions and people write the answers down and then I say, okay, now imagine if your sibling was next to you or your close friend was next to you. What would they say about your answers? And then you see people laughing cause it's very different because you're diluted. Unfortunately we are all very have some form of delusion with ourselves. We, yeah, that's why there's such a dissonance in our communities. Even when myself and there's this, there's this dissonance that starts to happen and unless we faced that, these uncomfortable emotions that we sit with absolutely sit with it first and foremost, people are sick. That's why they just mask it away. And this run off to something else

Tanzim: 00:14:03 I bought two points to bring up. One would be just to, cause I do want to go deep into like the temperaments itself. So people, um, whoever listening to this can kind of gate get an idea of who they are as well. But just a critique of 'em the four temperaments. Some people may say, oh I'm saying this, I don't know if other people say this but you know, for example, cause I come from business economics background as well. So for example, when you people, when they see certain situations occur in the world, they take a economical lens. So they're like, okay, I'm going to read this through economics. And get an understanding of what's happening. So I can not predict what will happen in the future. This and that. Would you say that some people may say that you have the four him human temperaments, but you're reading people but you're reading through a lens of seeing it as the forehead human temperaments, but you can critique that Lendl like what would your response,

Isaaq: 00:14:53 yeah, so, so there's always that case of um, know maybe you're looking at it from this perspective and if we would state that perspective out of it, then we can still look at the human being via other lenses. Uh, the difference. And, and that's true. Like of course you can, you can ignore the temperament and you can just look at things from a different lens that, that the difference days is that that's all particular base. So you studied a particular science, you will see the world based on your particulars. So if you study business, you will always see things by our business lens naturally or whatever else you've euro by in your life. The difference here is, is once you start to factor in the temperaments in your perspective. So even looking at it from a business perspective, what I'll say to you is, is the four temperaments, there's, so even within your class, for example, in a business studies class or there's four different types of, uh, of, of ways of looking at it from a business perspective and these four, this, this way of looking at it, why are these four our constants?

Isaaq: 00:15:45 So for example, when I was putting this project together, I, if I, I thought this signs was like a lost science. And advertising companies till today are using the same science to identify, identify four different types of, uh, of, uh, of consumers. Uh, there's many different, um, there's the disc analysis. I don't know if you've ever heard of the disc analysis. It's based on the four temperaments. There's the behavioral theory via these colors for, based on these four, Myers-Briggs 16. Right? It's a combination of the four temperament. So, you know, if someone doesn't need it, doesn't want to look at it via that Lens, that's fine. You don't have to. But what I would say to them is this, but give it a go and it'll never be the same guarantee. It'll never be the same because you'll start to see an important part of the human being.

Isaaq: 00:16:29 We aren't just our particulars. In fact, there's other parts of ourselves we're not looked at. Normally. When I, I introduced the science, I sort of draw a square on the, on the board and I say, what shape is this? And people say it's a square and I just draw it from changing his perspective perspective at night and I draw the rest of the basically is a cube. And I say just by changing it we've realized it's a completely different shape to what we thought by changing our perspective. And this is the, the key. So that business person who says, oh, but I'm looking at it from this lens and you're looking at it from that lens difference between me and you is as I'm saying, I'm looking at it from both. And if I know more, I look at it via other lenses and that's the best, the beauty of a liberated mind is able to be to consider all these different perspectives when dealing with a human being. That's called holistic, a holistic approach.

Tanzim: 00:17:13 I've got a, um, point to add in here cause um, I've set this in like every podcast is a, um, book, um, code, um, something, something success to achieve six off what the title of the book. But it gives you, you would have been familiar with this picture of this woman that's like a beautiful looking woman and it is another, but in the book it says people, most people see it as a beautiful woman, but there's another perspective and they, in the book it tells you you don't flip to the next page until you see the other perspective. And I'm like, I can't, I can't see it in any other way. And then I think another page actually tells you it's like an old woman. So I'm like, the hell, how's this? How's this gonna work? So I've been looking, I lose looking at for like 20 minutes. I'm like, I can now see it now. Actually see, cause the way the pictures made, B can be looked at birth at a as a beautiful woman or very old and depressing looking woman. So I'm like, it's kind of links. Yeah.

Isaaq: 00:18:04 Isn't it interesting that once you, so you spend those 20 minutes about once you see her,

Tanzim: 00:18:09 you can never unsee. Yeah. That's the beauty of training the mind.

Isaaq: 00:18:13 Once you see, you can never unsee. And one of the reasons why this for temperament works in people come in as critical and skeptical. And I always say give it a chance because I'm yet to see someone who's by the end completely rejected. The only reason why you accept it. And even myself, the first time I did it, I thought I wasn't too sure about it. Still at the end of it I said, I'm not sure. But the reason why it works is because you've already experienced the four temperaments. You experienced them in nature, the four seasons. You experienced them via the four elements. In fact, you know, when I first used to do the workshop, I would describe the four temperaments to people themselves. So I would speak about the four temperaments, uh, and it's, you know, the strengths and weaknesses and so on. But more recently I've changed that approach where actually, uh, I oppose it. There's an activity that we do where I ask everyone to describe one of the elements. I see. Describe fire as a person,

Tanzim: 00:19:08 like angry, aggressive, and people keep going. And it's amazing because you keep going. I'm really short tempered, um, destructive. Um, not beautiful. Um, one blanking. Sorry. Thanks. A podcast. Maybe that's, sorry. Yeah, no, but just look at those four that you mentioned. Yeah.

Isaaq: 00:19:30 The start over the four of the five or six that you mentioned. Um, all of those can and, and the more you do it and the more you go through it, so it's not very transparent, it's straightforward and very powerful. Um, has a presence. These eventually, as you start to look at this archetype of a personality fits many people that we know.

Tanzim: 00:19:49 Yeah, no lie. Yeah. Your name jumps into my mind. And isn't that amazing? You only did six of them. Imagine in a classroom

Isaaq: 00:19:55 people, and we don't just stick with the one. I mean I sat with the one answer that you gave, but he's been there. Whenever anyone says anything, I say, what do you mean? And then they describe it. So when someone says, Oh, fire is harmful, for example, what do you mean? Oh, if I get too close to it or even if I'm far away, I'm feeding it. There's people out there that when they come into the room, we just know of their presence, even if they are on the opposite side of the room, even if they're not in my conversation over here, but they're over there, whereas there's the water type. Right. Uh, and, and, and if I were to describe water, how would you describe water?

Tanzim: 00:20:26 Um, calm, chilled, um, introverted but bit more intelligent in the sense that I can kind of transition into like conversations without creating too much of a fuss. Just see. What do you think he's, what do you think you could work at? You can work out what he is by. The answers that he gave are really fire. How useful fire

Isaaq: 00:20:48 was from the perspective of war. So you put your po for water, you spoke far more positively

Malik: 00:20:55 then you did for fire. I think it's the same Ryan a right? Yeah. And you spoke about speaking, you almost escaping yourself. Yeah.

Isaaq: 00:21:03 And I've only just met you father and you could, I mean I asked you that question that what you just said about water that the character sees that you gave. Not entirely. I'm not saying that we, some of you all are you into these things that you mentioned, but this is describing another type of a person that we know. What's also interesting is what a person would look at fire as sometimes harmful. Whereas if asked to fire people, they would say fire's useful. It's true. They are from the perspective of fire. Yeah. Now I've just given you like like two, like, like 1% of it. Imagine we sit and we discuss some people, people with listening, thinking, oh that's a bit too simple. Honestly, it is kind of simple. So we have this constant conversation. Are we all entirely unique? And is it case by case with all human beings or is it one size fits all? And what this science is providing us is it's not one size fits all. No, is it, we're all entirely unique. We're somewhat predictable from some perspective. Mashallah,

Malik: 00:22:01 the summit. So many questions, comment on why. Yeah, that's what I always happens. I think we were talking about it during our car rides. Um, and you were talking about just sitting with yourself and I think that's something that this program forces you to do, just to sit with yourself and with your thought and pretty much a nurturing everything that you bring to the table. All right. Um, I mean, one of the first experience, first experience of just sitting with myself properly, I think we'll together in Turkey and we shared more tile and we did this exercise of just one October, which is to find stillness. And we just sat there for how long would you say? About an hour roughly. And just on a stepfather and just sitting there with our thoughts. And it's also very confronting. Right. But you said something incredible in your linkedin with the had youth of Jupiter aide. Uh, I wanted you to explain that.

Isaaq: 00:22:55 Yeah. So in Hudis Braille, um, we see the first thing that happens in all of this hadith is this man enters. So you familiar with how these degrade yet as he enters, uh, and the way he is the [inaudible] as we know, uh, when he see he sits with the profits a lot of of, but if we, if we look at the description of how he sat with the profits or like us on them, how was it, how was he described as sitting with a private seller SLO? Very close to him. Yeah. The description was his knees. His hands were upon the, other than he was knee to knee. So have you ever sat with a human being knee to knee? No. That'd be a bit weird. I thought. Right? Isn't that interesting? That in today's time we don't do that? Yeah. Imagine if someone was that close.

Isaaq: 00:23:38 Let me see if I can move this a little bit closer to you right now. How did it feel the moment I just came a little bit closer. You actually use just voided eye contact in just a moment as you follow up a little bit exposed. This is no, that's what we were being taught that in the classroom. That's your approach with a teacher. You have to be pretty much present that close and you don't have to physically be that close. But your attention, what you bring to that, that interaction is, is sitting with this presence. But my question is is that if that's all we're told to be, to have a real conversation, to have a real intimate conversation where, and you know, unfortunately this one world intimacy is lost. That's why the definition of intimacy is a joke.

Tanzim: 00:24:20 Yeah. To bounce a few. Um, I know that because in nowadays like, cause I like reading about like orientalism and stuff. So how the British came to India, they came as a white man with a suit and all that. So they came in and tried to implant meant the education system. Right. And so their version of the education system or how you have to be educators that have classrooms, have the teacher at the front of the board and we've kind of a doctor in this day and age as well. But then what they didn't realize is that you can actually gain experiential knowledge through, you know, Susie Sufism will prevail in the India Day with like many Sufi orders and stuff as well. But they were blind to see that, you know, they thought their way was the only way to gain, you know, knowledge is to, you know, one teacher at the front of the board for board and you have the whole class. But what you've described is actually, you know, if you look at, um, Islamic history, I think, um, [inaudible] don't have like a circle and people really close. That's how we learn.

Isaaq: 00:25:16 Isn't that interesting? That that's how we learned with other human beings. What about ourselves? Have we ever sat with ourselves in that manner? Have we ever been that close with ourselves? This is what Malik was, was getting at. That what you're forced to do in those moments of sitting with yourself is your exposed to yourself. You know, if you just say quiet for a moment and you just reflect, why is it people are so an easy in those and they, oh, they can't do it half the time. And we'd be do at the start of the session is because all this stuff's asked to come to surface and I don't want to deal with it, sire. I'd rather just talk about something else, right? But what you're supposed to do, sit with that for a while. Start to compartmentalize it, and you can start to make sense of yourself even in that situation.

Isaaq: 00:25:59 It's interesting that you went to, and no doubt that was the case and what the British and the influence that that happened during that period. But right here, right now, what can we do about it, right? What we can do about it and what I can do about it. And this is all about empowering the south. This was why it's called knowing yourself, not knowing others because you can known or know others. You can observe them. But we want to try to observe, observe ourselves for a while because the power, most of it lies within ourselves. In fact, this was called m a R K and mom cause Ali called his book the Alchemy of happiness, which is essentially by yourself. You are the base methods and how via your own process, by and by knowledge of yourself, you can transform yourself into gold. So it's all within within the staff and that's why I lost [inaudible] la. Come on full circle.

Isaaq: 00:26:50 Very or you believe you know literary trasy La come officer come there, you know you'll yourself is upon you and in a, in a slightly looser translation is take care of yourselves. Another, the chronic loss aes, one out of [inaudible] and a [inaudible] for unsal, hormone facade, Hula would fire support. Whenever we hear versatile Koran on two things to do, isn't it? Look out for the nouns and look out for the verbs. Nan's indicate to you, do you want to be a part of that group or not? So if you want, if you don't want to be a part of that group, then avoid their verbs. And if you want to be a part of that group, then follow their verbs. And also you can find if you are from them. Cause if you're doing that verb then you know which group allows pointing you in right now in that current state.

Isaaq: 00:27:28 So when you see will I go home on fast? So you here is the fast six, right? The transgressors the one who go above the above and beyond the boundaries. So what does he say? He says and he's also wanting, using well outer corner like don't be killed Lavina like those not so low. Forgot a and, and you know, it'd be interesting to ask people what would, what do you think would the B would be the response or what would the law say about those who forget a lot. And you would think that in a modern understanding it would probably be, you know, they would get punished or they will do some scene or something like that. What is the last day? Well at a conical Lithion and a salon for unsolved fuss, a home, you know, hit the response of a gang us, he made them forget themselves.

Isaaq: 00:28:10 So the people that we know, we've met in our lives who are busy and preoccupied with everyone else but themselves are some of the most ugliest in character people to be around and irritating and causing discomfort. There's already a discomfort in idea. I know my own sins. Oh you add onto it like I'm, you know, and I, you know, I met this one student of knowledge once and I was so happy to see how much he'd been studying and I asked him also, what project are you working on? Cause I like to see that the guys who've been studying to be a bit creative and how can we take this to the next level? You know, that what we've learned and, and he said, I'm writing a reputation against an, and it was a pen as a predominant Scott or like a really famous scholar.

Isaaq: 00:28:55 And I thought what a waste of it. Like [inaudible] do not have your own sins to be writing a reputation to your soft lane. I'll be that unaware of ourselves that that in my day with the sense that I have that I'm going to spend this day talking about what when I do that workshop I just get a free therapy session for myself cause I'm of one of the temperaments and I'm constantly reminded of like where I'm going wrong cause I'm going wrong, we're all going wrong and things. But this is the, this is the, the, it's very, very interesting. And then you link that with the other versus [inaudible] of the lot of salon where he sees man hustle Islam or murder Taco Humala yeah, from the beauty of a person's Islam, which is also interesting about elicited this, I mean hustle Islam and Hustle Islam. Like you know, you can just look at that statement or that phrase, sorry, mean hustle Islam from the beauty of a person.

Isaaq: 00:29:49 Islam from a beautiful Islam. So the fact that he saying beautiful Islam, is there another part to Islam? Could there be an ugly Islam or the ugliness of an Islam? And he says, men Hustler Islam and mud of a person Turkle who to leave Marla I knee that which does not concern him that which has no Montana for him. No meaningful him. So you know all these people when they, when they focused on, sorry about that nod. So when people are focused on others, right, what type of Islam is that? But when you're focused on c from P, your purpose is to leave that which is a concern. You wha what he, what he or she is going through it. Realism has no meaningful me and that becomes a beautiful Islam now. And isn't it beautiful when we meet those people who are just, no. Someone says, how did you hear about so and so did was I got to do with me? And you just find a peace. The moment someone says that the unrest that was in your heart that caused you to speak cause that's how it works. Most people speak cause of an unrest going on and they speak Lydia Brown measures. I was a very interesting to think about that. But when that happens and someone just diffuses it, I as no mean

Tanzim: 00:30:53 I wanted to ask is, um, even from my perspective, I feel that I might be wrong. I'm like, you know, Russell are so some may have had what? Like we follow the HEDIS, we do our best. We can, um, to emulate his character. But wouldn't that mean that he has like one temperament and then we all have to become one

Isaaq: 00:31:12 permitting eventually non or [inaudible]. The point really isn't to become one temperament. The point is to balance ourselves to be the appropriate, to display the appropriate temperament in whatever the situation requires me to be. Sometimes the situation requires me to be an inner energetic sandwich. Sometimes the situation requires to me be to be an intense melancholic, diminish time to study. There's no time to be a distracted sanguine yes, it's a time for me to be, uh, a focus, serious studying melancholic. When it's time for me to set up an organization or work with an organization, it's time for me to be cleric and to get up and go right. Or when an injustice is taking place for me to speak about it. It's time for me to be cleric. But when there's a lot of noise taking place and everyone's, everyone's getting their comments in, then it's time for me to be phlegmatic and just be a bit passive right now and be peaceful and avoid conflict.

Isaaq: 00:32:05 So what the province has on display, he displayed perfectly each, he displayed the best response to any situation. That's what we need to work towards. And what you see in the foreclosure far is you see, you do see is very interesting, honestly is like the arrows example you just gave and you see that one and then you see them by the end of their lives and you see almost, you see this growth, which is quite difficult to understand sometimes because the melancholic temperament, that intense deep, sometimes almost timid to be able to in his later on in his to display such great. Uh Oh such great courage. Like Abu bakr RA who did not let, I want to say I speak about the negatives of any of them, but you know, our motto, the law at the start of it, he was, he's a clearly a collogue temperament and you see how he was as a person, as a cleric and how he, Eh, like in the Jahiliyyah Times, how many Arabs actually carried out those Jahiliyyah principles. Do you think all of them did that? No. Only those fiery cleric types we took on those principles and did that. But when Islam came, look what he did with the principles of Islam.

Tanzim: 00:33:15 Well, no, it's like, um, what you said about exercising the right temperament the right time. I know like O'Mara younger who we know through the Sierra very, you know, out there, um, at times portrayed as angry, um, he just wants to like kill someone that did something wrong. But then when he becomes Kaylee, like you'd be crying on the minbar run alone,

Isaaq: 00:33:34 almost displaying the, displaying the complete opposite of his, her temperament. You know why that was? Because they had the best soft development going on under the best temp, under the best mentor ever.

Tanzim: 00:33:44 And even Apple Walker or the on who act, people seem as soft easily to push around. And I know that, you know, the was, he became like more fierce and stern and had to like deal with that situation as well. And even on a, I'm Omar Radovan who like, I think what people have said, I think even during the time of [inaudible] with his family, he said that if, um, his daughters came up to him, he would just be giving them anything you want. Like not exercising that character of, you know, aggressiveness. What we seem to think it has in the public.

Isaaq: 00:34:15 Yeah. Because what happens when you give fire a system, if you leave fire without a system, it'll just burn the forest down. But if you give it a system, which is what they need, then you see that fire running steam engines and covering vastus distances. And in fact, when you look at his expansion, the expansion and the Ahmad was the greatest expansion over the fall. So it's like controlling my and look what it's able to do. Control Water and look at the balance that uh, the, the, the, the, the response that has a man had Rhodiola. I know, but again, to not, I mean sometimes people who don't have an understanding of the four temperaments properly, we look at what we're saying right now and maybe misunderstand, and this is why I always say to people as we're doing the workshop halfway through a new kind of did this as well.

Isaaq: 00:35:02 And this is national id. This is, once we start looking at the four temperament, we start looking at that person that we know. Then we start working at the, formulating our understandings or co constructing our understandings of the four archetypes based on that person. And that's when you make a blend that don't do that. Don't, don't say so alma is the correct. No, just say understand the caloric. Once you understand the cleric, once you understand the science, once you understand the principle, well, once you understand that the archetype, then you make sense of awareness of everything else. But once you understand it properly and that's why you need, you have to study the science problem. And I think what

Malik: 00:35:38 you were saying in terms of the federal actually dean, the best schooling that they had was that also sys on them and kind of connect into your point about, you know, traditional settings. Um, and I think if you look at any perfect traditional sending, which the Paul Sys on have set out for us was that, you know, he came in as a person who was not teaching us theology who came as a person, this is what I want to be. Our teacher says that he was experiencing gone. Right? And so now because we don't have the prophesies them, you know, we're trying to articulate that experience. Right? And so, which is important. I think what the prophesies tell him did, he gave him the proper dosage to every single one of them. And their training ground was like second to none. And I think, which is why, you know, when we're taught [inaudible] for example, you can go through the attributes of a loss of a handle, Tyler, right?

Malik: 00:36:33 But what our teacher says is that does a really resonate with you, a will to sit down and think about La. And when you do that properly, right, you're sitting with yourself first, right? And you're reflecting on, you know, the attributes of God and all these, or all the attributes of the last panel to Ireland and the profits, uh, Cetera, which is why I find, you know, this is a natural step to really sit down with yourself and to know yourself and where you fit. And then everything else, just, it's like that Meese missing puzzle puzzle right now. So I'll move out of people.

Isaaq: 00:37:10 50 odd, 60 71 ladies who, 17 California. She said to me in the workshops, she said, and I wish I knew this when I was younger, when I was raising my children. She said, but you know, at least I can use that. My grandchildren, they're a 50 year old man came. And he was quite skeptical about that. His temperament throughout the workshop is quite skeptical I could sees from his reactions. And then he came up to me and he said to me, uh, he goes, uh, I'm a physicist. They both started laughing and then, uh, and then he just said, he goes 50 years. And he goes, and I had questions I can never get the answers for, but I never find the answers for you. So now I'll find it. And that's not because this workshop is also amazing or anything like that. It's because the science is the, it's always been, the human beings have always been using that science, maybe two and a half thousand years, far more consistent than the other ones.

Isaaq: 00:38:02 Right. You know, the, think about it, all these TVs out there, and you've got this theory that lasted two and half thousand years and it's still being developed. And so, uh, you know, and it's, it's worked in so many different environments, so many different, um, people have different backgrounds. And, uh, it's just been an honor and a pleasure really. Honestly, people look at this and they say, Oh, you know, it seems like it's a successful project. It's whatever allows, want, wants it to be in terms of a success. We don't measure success by how things manifest in this world. That's not how we measure success. We don't measure success. You can't measure success of this podcast based on the hits. You measured the success as Russell told us, how do we measure success in the Malott Amal, who've been Nia, you intended this to change the life of this podcast to change the life of a million people.

Isaaq: 00:38:53 Then that's why you'll get your milk Yammer if you've sincerely believed that that's all. It's a good memory for myself. Sometimes I get caught up with the stats [inaudible] and that's why we do that moment at the start where we ask ourselves one of the activities you do at the start. Maybe you can do this with yourself right now and maybe those who are anyone's listening, even listening to this podcast. The question I'll ask you is to ask yourself, why are you here? Why did you set this up right now? Why are those who are listening, listening, answer that question in your mind? Can I answer it low? You can answer it a lot. But the reason I would say is answer in your mind is because it's far more raw in your mind and it's, it's far more real in your mind. And then ask people to write it down.

Isaaq: 00:39:35 But if you do want to share it because you're strong boy. Yeah, go on. Go on tiger. So while we started was, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like just a reason. No, no. I'm asking right now cause we have to, when we talk about heart, what's your heart saying right now? Why are you here right now? I know what you did it then. I mean I'm sure we can have that conversation and that, but that's about the podcast there. Bob, what about here? And now, when did you wake up and set this thing? Or what did you respond to? Malik's text. Right? And pause there. And now ask yourself is very different almost. Right? But that's the real talk. Welcome to being real, right? Yeah. So now let's go with that and why that, why did you want that? Alright. So even though we were listening and you keep going and we do this at the start, we just keep going.

Isaaq: 00:40:32 Why? And then there's a bunch of people who have said settle there and see. So as I'm doing it, there's others who are like, you were like thinking and you see the smile coming by and like, really? I didn't see that coming. And there's others out there who, right, why am I here? Oh Law, what a Saudi, he [inaudible], he a lost the seeking a lost pleasure and the pleasure of the soul to put it down. And they sit there like this. And I say, why that? Why are you seeking a law? You have a throw by that. And they go, oh, okay. It's not that transfer is the natural answer. And it's a good answer. But keep going and really find out why, why you're here. Cause the, for the first time in your life, you're probably gonna hear, you're probably going to hear the statement of your current state.

Isaaq: 00:41:21 It's very interesting to hear that because it might not be nice, but if you can tune it, it becomes beautiful. Becomes incredibly beautiful. That's why when that mom and that Russell Sass and was sitting into the tree arresting and that man came with the sword and he said, oh Muhammad, who's going to save you from me? What are the sole source mc? Just take that in for a moment. Resting. You know what? What happens in Viet, we're resting for a moment and someone say something and you just respond with what our state is responding and that's why in the morning what you think are gives you an indication as to where your state is for that day. If you run to your business, if you're onto your phone, if you're antici see the stats and that's what you're at, that's where you're at, man. Yeah, that's where you're at. But what was the Russell sort of some state, the moment he a law and one of the wire, I'll say that when he said a law, he said it again and again and again is imagine that all sorts of fun sitting there. This guys look at is there a law, a law, a law [inaudible] and then, and then what happened? Then the metaphysical reality of the [inaudible] sort of affected the physical reality, the physics of that man. What happened after that? He dropped the sword.

Isaaq: 00:42:43 He ended up here. Then there are some picked 11 and boy, today's who is going to save you from me? Well she your state saying what's interesting about that as well, going back to now, man, I'm in the app, right? So that person might never had the intention to kill the pro's ice on them. All right? But we only in control of their intention, I lie, controls the outcome. So even though he had the intention to kill a, like control the outcome, and that's with everything, it's like really deep. It's like the, the immaterial affecting the physical. Exactly. Philosophy. 100% right? 100% and that's why like, oh, this is quite deep. What is this called? Human interaction. Welcome to the club. Right? Unless we used these only because this is action. Action, right? This button, which is action buttons, right? Just respond. But under this, the actions, actions, the human being is far more. And if I sat here just being this person, I'm supposed to be in this podcast, then we'll just have the conversation up to that level. But if I start to be rebate more real, I'm as to why I'm really, yeah, you don't think I was answering when I asked the wise even I was answering those and I love it because every time I read the workshop, I'm there writing my own intentions as well.

Isaaq: 00:43:58 Why am I here? And then, you know, it was amazing. One of the girls in the, in the workshop yesterday, she said, ah, Sunday she said, and the students, she said, oh, it's just like the five why's at Toyota. I was like, wow. She says, oh, into altar. They do this as well to really er for their personal development. I mean, they're doing this for cars. They're doing this for cause. The advertising companies using the four temperaments to make money of you to make more money. A few, at the very minimum, I say in the workshop, at the very minimum, very minimum, use the temperaments to make money for yourself. And you know what people did. I've had people message me two weeks after saying, I just wanna let you know I got a job from the temperaments from the workshop. Yes.

Isaaq: 00:44:42 It's where you take it and if you want to get to God and get to goodbye. Did you want to come to know yourself, get to come to know yourself via,

Isaaq: 00:44:49 I wanted to ask you in just in terms because cause we probably didn't break out and break down the four temperaments specifically. Could you just give like a quick around dance so maybe someone can kind of identify who they are personally. So really, you know the, the workshop itself is quite long and yeah,

Isaaq: 00:45:03 one of the reasons is because if you get like a really short shortened version, you probably won't believe it. I think anyway. And I, that was the case with me, but I'm just to, you know, for the sake of the podcast, I would say this, this fall, there's these four types which are again, as I mentioned, everyone has a major and then a secondary. So you have a dominant, a temperament and a sub dominant. And this is very interested in the combination. So you have a, the sanguine is what we call the [inaudible], the popular sanguine. They like spring, wherever they go. There's joy, very optimistic, fun, energetic, loving, sincere, that type of a person. Then you have your phlegmatic person, which is your peaceful phlegmatic. Uhm, does avoid confrontation, good listener, good emotional intelligence, right? There's that type of four person and there's the melancholic, the deep, intense melancholic.

Isaaq: 00:45:52 Uh, th their type of a, of a, of a persona or their personality is more of a, a, um, it's one of, uh, uh, seriousness, a grounded, realistic, um, and, and, and ideals based, and they sometimes seen as being pessimistic or being negative, but they're not actually negative. Um, they're just, uh, optimistic. They're just, um, idealistic. So they have ideals and because no one matches up to ideals cause ideals like closeted perfection, right? And because people don't matter to perfection, what happens then is it comes across as if they're being negative because you're not good enough. And that's where they love their books. Because in the books they find all the ideals, but in the real world it's like, and you write a, and then you have your cleric, which is a, the powerful cleric, the fiery type. So you have the sign one, which is the airy type and we call those characters the airy fairy type.

Isaaq: 00:46:46 And the, the, the phlegmatic is the watery type. And the war element for them is water. That was by Paracelsus in the 16th century. We made these connections but others made it as well. And then the melancholic is like earth grounded and full of full of jewels. We've just got to work to it. And that's why they're quite intense in the phlegmatic and the melancholic other, the introverts and then the cleric and the sanguine are extroverted and so you fire your fire and your ar are a lot more, uh, you know, uh, they make the impact there. And then in that moment and the melancholic and the flag are a bit more slower to react because there's a lot more consideration taking place. And that's why they introverted and that's why they, they contribution manifests over a longer period of time. Um, so that, that's, you know, a nutshell.

Isaaq: 00:47:29 So people would really, um, and again I wouldn't say where would you put yourself, cause you're going to put yourself where you want to put yourself. So I would say is that if all the people around you, if you were to find a consistency in, in what people were to say about you, what would they say about you? Would they put you as a fiery type? Would they put you as a, as a, as a airy type of person but wouldn't? Because I know people say that all I'm out there, people who have interacted with you, they'll, there'll be like a thousand different perceptions of yourself. Yeah. People say that so. Well that's the other thing. And that's why I would say don't ask just some random person that you know or don't ask that person at your workplace cause you're gonna be at your workplace or all these places you're gonna be at these places according to that situation.

Isaaq: 00:48:12 Or I would say is what are you like when you're with your friends, when you're in your element, and I mean friends, friends, like your homeys people, people who know you from back in the day or soy, your siblings cause they're siblings, you know, siblings are the ones you can't fake it. They'll just look at you and they'd be like, really? You were sharing a story, a story about that impair yourself in terms of when you found out about your own temperament. Yeah. Yeah. Can you expand on that? Yeah, that was interesting. Um, so I mean I was abroad and I was studying and then we were living in Jordan at that point. And uh, and I thought my temperament was of I, it was a particular temperament, but that was because I was living a particular life that wasn't my, like necessarily my comfort zone, especially when you leave your country and you start reading and whatever.

Isaaq: 00:48:55 Um, but it was actually an evening where some of the students had come out and it was all mostly westerners and we went out for one evening and we were just in, it was a social and that was the day where I wasn't, you know, my jihad against my knifes and all the hard work I was trying to do and trying to be this person that was a day off for me. It was just, I just need to chill right now. You know, do what I do. And it was on that day I discovered that my nerves, that's my temperament. And that's why this is useful because that's the guy who would always be there. So even at your workplace, at your law firm, you're trying to be this fiery law person, whatever. But when you go home, sometimes that just takes a lot of stress out of you because that's not who you are.

Isaaq: 00:49:33 And that one who you are when you're in your element, when you're in your comfort zone, that's how you recognize your temperament. But again, some people come to the workshop and figure out the temperament. Not everyone does. At the very minimum, you know which one you're not. So, you know, I feel that part popular sanguine and you know you are. And if you're not, you'll say, I don't know which one I am from the other three, but I'm not that person. Right. Process of learning via the opposites. This is a really extremely good tool to use to be honest. Um, but it's like that. And so I had, I had an evening I with some of the friends and I realized, oh my gosh, like I am clearly that temperament. But then there's also the books and when we do the workshop by the end, I just introduced the science and then I recommend the books and they're all in the notes and, and I let people go in and read about them. And then, um, and it was amazing. I was in California and uh, as a 50 year old man who came to the workshop and his daughter sent me a picture of her dad and he bought like the four, five books and like three others by the same authors. And he just was starting this journey of self discovery national. And it's just,

Tanzim: 00:50:34 I feel like I'm two questions to that first one. Come, comes to my head cause it Kinda hits me personally. Right. So I have said this, I've touched on the story, I'm in the past in previous episode, but you see my personal story, um, I wasn't that much into the [inaudible] key 10 when I was in high school. And I know for a fact that [inaudible], you know, I used to get a bit bullied and stuff, so I was in like myself. But then because society and then you see clubbing drinking stuff, you want to be more extrovert with just people around you. So I think I'd be like, you're nine, 10, 11. I tried to be that extroverted guy. I don't know other people perceive of me, but I thought myself, like myself is just being out there extroverted. Um, fun, cool. Make everyone laugh. That sort of guy.

Tanzim: 00:51:21 But then I remember distinctly, and this kind of coincide with going to dean, but every time I'd go home if I go to sleep, my house so empty, like I could feel like very distinct emptiness and I could they also distinct that this day if I reflect or I can still feel how I felt. Right. But um, and then when I started like university, Uni humble, go connect, I'd like mostly like I was always connected with the dean but wasn't like on in depth. Right. And then first unique or connect with brothers and I'm lie not being part of MSA, being part of the clique. My personality from external level, just like flipped. Like it went from that external like you know, out extrovert guy, this and that to like more in my own area. Like more like back then always wanting to be with people and hang out. But then now it was just like, I want to be one, so I just want to be alone. And then like the fulfillment, like the man, like the feeling in your heart when he, I guess have that Yakin it's just like Savannah. Like, I experienced that, but I felt like I feel like you can take like a temperament lens on my experience cause I thought it was more so the fact that I was in practicing it, then I became practicing. But yeah.

Isaaq: 00:52:31 Well you see, yeah. And that's, that's a question people always ask that in a, how can I work out in my past, which bit was my temperament, which was my native, which was my load change or did I want you saw a con to the theory on the science is that our primary never changes. And I got a feeling, I kind of know which one you are. And normally I switch it off, but I knew you'd be asking part of this because that's what I have to do. Um, cause otherwise I've just always seen people via that lens on ashes switch off and lumber. Like I learned to switch off. And it's wonderful because I take people as they are rather than all these assumptions that I'm making. Uh, but even in this situation, people, you know, people ask all so which one's which? And, and honestly to truly work out, uh, what was, you know, what happened with your temperament is for you to really, you know, only the person who can tell is yourself, but you have to put the shift in.

Isaaq: 00:53:17 Like there's no quick answer to it. You can't just give a scenario. I can give a theory, you know, I'll share it with you. But what's important is it is that, you know, only you can really know, which was your nature, which bit was your nurture and so on. And what did you, you know, it could be a dean related thing. It could be certain sense because since causal agitation inside the heart, as we know in us, it's not always something that, you know, you being at your comfort zone or out your temperament or out your element that causes an agitation. It could just be, you know, sometimes it's a sin or sometimes it's a person who's sitting and that's not sitting well with this. Um, not to say that you know, you will something. But in terms of, you know, sometimes when that happens a person could be forced to live a cleric life.

Isaaq: 00:54:00 And one of my friends actually he sent me a recording recently back in California. He said, um, he goes, you know, this world in today's time, once people to be more sanguine and cleric, cause it's all moment based. I it's all here and now, uh, very interesting. Right? Thank you. In the marketing companies have one that yeah, 100% [inaudible] does vice general [inaudible] and then, and also like actors and you know, all these guys who are at the making the money, you know, these are very sanguine cleric type of a, our way of being and that's why people are working towards that. But if your, that's the phlegmatic person, which is what we spoke about, the start the war tree type but you're forced to be fire. Yo, you're the one who's going to be feeling really out of place right now that, you know, this is just too much for me. But the point of all of this is not to just find out which one you want to stay there. That's not the point, but that's not, I've not made this course or have not shared this course for people to just sit around and say, I'm the water type. You're the fire type. Oh my God,

Speaker 6: 00:54:58 what's the point of that? I'm not interested

Isaaq: 00:55:00 in that. And you know, and that happens. The point is, is how can I achieve what the fiery guys achieve being war? And that's what module three, module four provide. How can I motivate myself from a war tree perspective? For example, a fiery type for the fire type. You say to them, you give him the facts, they go off what they know Malcolm x type. So you want to make a so, so invest a hundred pounds in three weeks to make a thousand band simple. They know the facts and know how long it takes. And has it been proven? Yes, it has. All right, I'm interested. Did you make the [inaudible] is very, that's the other question. Did you make it if you made it, I'm interested. If you didn't make it assistant of the scheme, that's the cleric. They just, that's how they see the phlegmatic person. The watery type is very different.

Isaaq: 00:55:45 The, the cleric is a principle based person. The, the phlegmatic, the water type is a people based person and they're more in touch with their feelings. So for them you can't say to that that quieter relaxed person, possibly you [inaudible] probably a sanguine flag or a flag sanguine. Um, especially with what you're doing right now as well. Uh, and it's interesting, it's not video based, but you could have gone for video based, but you didn't, you know, that's just something to think about here. And again, you know the answers. But for that phlegmatic person who's based off feelings based off feelings,

Speaker 6: 00:56:17 I love it. I love about the workshop because then you get people [inaudible] we don't have the money.

Isaaq: 00:56:24 No, but this is also interesting, right? Because check this out. This scenario is to do with money. Check this out. So for the flag to go out and to make that that as a parent, you can't say to the flag, um, give me a hundred and I'll give you a thousand in three weeks. You, will you say to them, do you want to start a business? Do you want to make a thousand pound? There'll be like me make a thousand pound, Nah, I can't do that. The business guys, they do that. Maybe I'll speak to the business guy but I can't do that. And the way you motivate them, as you say to them, you really got to dig down to the, their feelings to get them to make that thousand pound. You say, how does it feel not having a thousand bad. I just didn't feel very good. How does it feel having a podcast but then still having the funds for it, I didn't really feel.

Isaaq: 00:57:05 And you start to get into that and it's like, you know what if I told you about this scheme, how does ask him sound to you? All right are the skim signs, you know, and you've invested that time and that's when the flag starts to get interested. And it's crazy because that's how they work. And, and if you know, if, if that's your background is, it's busy. That's why all the examples I give are very, uh, you know, based on these particular environments that we have, where someone where that happens and someone on the flag flag the flag starts that conversation of potentially opening our business now or investing that a hundred pound because, because of the fact that they, you've, you've invested in them. So, so they need that, whereas a colored doesn't need that. Don't ask me about my feelings, I'm not interested. Just give me the facts as they do for people.

Isaaq: 00:57:49 Right. And, and, and uh, and that's the way you're motivating them. So that's the point of this is how do we take this to motivation? And it's not just money, it's how do we get the person to pray. A sanguine is a social butterfly, a melancholic. There's no interest in, in social, in the social needs or the needs or, or being in and around people. So when it comes to praying, for example, uh, for a sanguine, they love gym or they love doing it things together, can we do it together? Let's do it together. Right? A melancholic is different. They'll just cause of the cause that principle-based sanguine is people based. So the Sangha was like, oh can I, we should go together, let's go together. And this works in the gym, had a personal trainer who came when he goes, he goes, even for the sanguine is in the gym. They need 'em group pluses, group classes work or go going with a friend, a buddy system works. What other melancholic can just get on and train. If you motivate them, give them the knowledge as to why they need to be training. So it's, you know, and I'm giving just a taster of, of, you know, and I'm not a fan of giving tasters because there's all these,

Malik: 00:58:49 one of the things I'm thinking about now is just essential also about,

Isaaq: 00:58:54 you should share that story of your sister.

Malik: 00:58:56 Oh, let me get, I'll get to that. Um, but in terms of the social media and how we can construct these temperaments or construct a fake version of ourselves. Right.

Isaaq: 00:59:08 Alright. So I pretend to be this cool popular sanguine when I'm not really

Malik: 00:59:13 mm. Cause even with, for example, insta stories, right? Anyone who's done an entire story, how many takes have you done? Do you just put it straight away? Cause your subconscious subconsciously constructing a perfect image of yourself or what you want people to think about. But it might be the fake one on be VB, genuine ace being from experience. [inaudible] come from a [inaudible]. So I do these all the time. So yeah. Um, what would you say about that? Cause you mentioned how I think we in the classroom, I don't want to take away too much from what you teach in the, in the workshops, but I think it was incredible when you connect it to one of our loads attributes on health.

Isaaq: 00:59:52 Oh yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. As amazingly. Yeah. But even even in social media like you see like a sanguine will then just do what everyone else is doing on the, on there because that's popular and they love the pleasure or seeking the pleasure of the people. Sanguine is, are like that. They like to see what everyone enjoys and then they try to deliver that. Um, which is not always healthy because what if your crowd's uh, an an a, an unhealthy crowd for you but you're trying to please them so you'll lose silly stuff just to please them. And that's why this hangman's you know, and then the Melancholia crew jumps on it who's who's ideal base and then they jump onto social media and they find all these people with all the imperfections and it just increases depression for them. Well this is so much to like take it in that four, five, six hours.

Isaaq: 01:00:40 Can you believe this? We did this session from 10 til this. I couldn't believe we did this session from 10 till five. 10 Til five. Okay. You had breaks in between and stuff. 10 to five and when it finished, people stayed behind. Still. Majority of the class was still there. I mean I asked him a job, me like maybe one person or two people left. That's it from a crowd, like 55 people or something. Two people just left and everyone's still sitting there and Ashley said it three times. I said, you can leave. And people still didn't want to leave because when it comes to the south, hi cause we know how vast the south is. And in this moment of just sitting here, cause I know you've, cause you just had that face this whole time and you probably been checking stuff, but you've also just been a bit introspective.

Isaaq: 01:01:19 You can see when someone's kind of going inside cause it's cause they get quiet and his dialogues has taken place right inside. Um, and that's what happens with people and they just want more. Yeah. But um, the name of the name of God, I mean like this is all requiring us to be authentic. This isn't work. If you're being fake, if you're not being real and you're trying to be that person you're trying to be, then you're going to waste your time with the temperaments. Cause you're going to pretend that that temperament works for you because you're trying to be that person or you have some benefit in it, especially Dooney RB worldly benefit in it. But if you start to be real, and what's one of the names that's related to what's one of God's names that relates to being real? Any idea how I'll have right?

Isaaq: 01:02:09 And we know that each of allows names. So when we start to be real, we manifest. God's name is manifesting right? And each of a last names has two parts to be able to dementias. You could say add the Jelali and the Giamatti dimension. This beautiful is beauty that appears in all huck and this majesty that appears in Alhambra. So when a person starts to be real, it's very beautiful to see where someone's being real. Even if they say to you, sorry, I don't really like you all of a sudden you appreciate that though. Cause Alicia being real with me. All right, what if you didn't lie? What if I didn't like you? But I pretended to like you? That's a very different experience. So when someone's being real, they, they show this, Jamal, this Jamal starts to manifest in this person and this Jello. What does gelato mean?

Isaaq: 01:02:53 Majesty? What Is Majesty mean? This thing that deserves or demands respect. So when a person starts to be real with themselves, you automatically deserve or demand respect. When you see someone as being real, you just respect that. But when someone doesn't display, I'll hug or displays the opposite of an being authentic. Opposite of being authentic is being fake. We get the opposite of Jamal was the opposite of beauty, like ugliness. Then you see that when people be fake and he's just ugly to see, or when they're unaware of themselves, there's an ugliness that starts to appear and what's the opposite of majesty or that which demands respect that which rejects respect that that which is not worthy of respect. And that another word for that is being pathetic. And there's a patheticness that starts to come about with people when they're being fake. There's an ugliness and a patheticness.

Isaaq: 01:03:44 If people want. People who knew me were watching the right now, if I were saying anything different to what I normally say, there would be an ugliness and a patheticness, some natural. But if I'm saying, well, I always say, which is, which is true that we watching the saying, oh, that's actually beautiful. That's that good on him. Respect. Right. That'd be, Rosie is amazing. It's just a [inaudible]. It's just, it's real talk, man. It's not like there's no agendas out here. I'm not trying to be anyone. I'm not that, that I'm not, and you're not listening as trying to be someone that you are not. You're just sincerely listening. And when you get that, you get just this real talk, right? You get something that we all recognize as you know, because look what we just spoke about, right? Life. This was from a fake perspective.

Isaaq: 01:04:28 People, people will be lost right now with what we've been speaking about. Fire, Eh, an earth and more, it sounds like avatar. That cartoon, the airbender and you know, someone actually came and I was in Connecticut. She goes, oh, the attendees. She goes, she said, when you were describing the personalities in the airbender, the Avatar, the comic and the cartoon, those four different types of people, those fire tribe and the air tribe, she said that the, they're exactly their temperaments. It's the temperaments they have grouped into, and Shakespeare did this, Shakespeare knew the four temperaments. So he exaggerated that, the temperaments into these characters in his, in his, um, in his place. Oh. So then people were seeing that and it's like, Oh yeah, that reflects reality. It's incredible. People did this, you know, like, uh, advertising companies especially did this or when you get a sanguine type of a person who's popular and everyone is drawn to that, for example, in phenomena, remember saved by the bell. They used to be that character. Zack, once you get that and you make him the face of your product, now all of a sudden people are drawn to that product. So they are clever with this whole science.

Tanzim: 01:05:33 Yeah, like I'm speaking about like not like um, ugliness. I it was funny cause I was talking to my friend recently and I told him, cause um, there's been like dialogues with like ex Muslims and stuff. Um, like within the last few. So I just brought up, I'm like, Bro, like did you, when I, when I look at them, look at the faces, I see ugliness, I see like a darkness on the face. And then I asked him as well, like, do you see or is it just me? And then he's like, yeah bro. It's like I see it and it's like a crew as well. So you just all see it. You just see something darkness. It kind of links with what you're saying, like speaking Hawk and you know the Agnes that comes if you don't anything opposite to the truth,

Isaaq: 01:06:14 everything manifests man. And that, and that's why, you know, even with like it's gotta be real. And like even when you, and you know, this whole process about being real, you know, if you start to develop that within yourself, then when you turn to God you can be real with God. But if you're fake everywhere else you fake. We got, and that's why people actually struggle with, like Dawes had asked me this a, how do I be viewed with God?

Tanzim: 01:06:38 Hmm. DSAP real with yourself.

Isaaq: 01:06:41 The hurt that I just say, speak to God as if he was speaking to another, you know, just speak as you would normally speak. If you start saying, oh, you know, and it's fine. Like we have those because we have the doors in the manner that they are, because that's appropriate for a last one on to Eilat and that's the other that we're supposed to have. But sometimes you just tend to align to see. Do you remember the, uh, the, the, the case of the man in the desert when he says, um, you, uh, oh allow you all my, they say, Oh, you must have an alum, your slave or something. He said, no. He says, he says you almost seven. I'm your older son gets it wrong. But he got it wrong. And did he get held up to that? But the law hold him to that?

Isaaq: 01:07:21 No, because he was being real. Whatever he was trying to say a lot, he heard what he was saying without him saying, all right. So when people get caught up on the technicalities in one of our teachers or some academy, or we say, God's not going to catch you out on a technicality. So if you turn around and see, man, I'm struggling, man. Did you say, man, that's [inaudible] you call it alarm man. As people are listening to this, we'll probably, we'll see, say mine in a door. He talking about, it's when it's being you being real and that's why you even say, man to a woman when you're being real. I just don't get it man. Yeah, because you being real. It's a manifestation of,

Tanzim: 01:08:02 you know, I think it's something that city micro sage surrogates from saying recently when it was here. You know, when we ask, do I tell a lot, can we ask him for things? He goes, have you ever reached a moment where

Malik: 01:08:16 you just feel you're in conversation with a lot? Because that moment is even greater than what you're asking for. Just an intimate conversation among [inaudible]. He said, cause a ticket. Just that moment of just like pure conversation that, you know, just, you just, you want to lie. Nobody else, nobody else matters. It's just you and him. Um, and so it reminds me of also like a lot of the stuff that you're doing, uh, with knowing yourself also connects with one of our tradition of Tesco to [inaudible] all the purification of the heart. Right? Um, which went, I lost Bannatyne assays that nobody will enter paradise until they have a sound hot. Right. And so all this work is to find that piece and that sound this within yourself where, so when you were talking about the how and we will create these fake version of ourselves, our hearts are not arrest. Yeah, there's this agitation and this unrest. But when you're real with yourself, that's when you're really like, like you let go. I'm at peace right now. Like take away all those fake followers, take away all the, the mass that I'm, you know, putting on to create this version of myself. But when you're real with yourself, that's when your heart is really, really sad and you can get to that point of, you know, this is a conversation.

Tanzim: 01:09:34 Personal kind of experience was like even on Instagram had like not okay ish kind of followers like 2000, 3000 at one point, like few years ago. I'm like [inaudible] but um, I was pretty proud of myself. Like Yay, I got their humbly love. But what happened? It was like you just had to keep up to date with people liking others and they'd like your posts. I'm like, I can't stand this. I just unfolded everyone and I lost like so many followers and now I'm at peace. Like I think I'm on seven, 800 by, I know it's like good quality, like followers, people to actually look at my stuff. So it's kind of reflecting on what you're saying. Just like that, getting that fake stuff out. Cause I felt like I was being like not myself and I just wasn't feeling good. Like screwing with me mentally, spiritually, even you're being fake.

Isaaq: 01:10:18 I'm there all day. Sometimes you go through that in a day. I mean we told that the believer goes through 70 states in the day. So you know, even what we, and that's one the temper or the temperaments actually speaks about. We kind of go through the full temperaments, even in a date, even throughout the year, even in a month, the full cores of the moon, the four stages and that impact people differently if you know, you know. Um, and there's also an impact of it in our lives. You know, there's different parts of, so, you know, that the, the different stages that I was speaking with, the airy type, the sanguine, the sanguine state is actually our youth stage where we're all just carefree and having fun. You know, children, young children, just having a good time and everyone's drawn to children because of the happy go nature that they have.

Isaaq: 01:10:57 And then the Calera age, the fiery ages, the teenagers. So everyone has experience of what it means to be a fiery teenager. Even that chill, that kid becomes a fiery version of himself. Yeah. I, you were speaking about that very solid. And then you have the melancholic age, which is when we're adults, when we have to be more responsible. All right? That's that melancholic age. So we all experience a form of, of responsibility and having to structure our lives. And then there's the, the, uh, the phlegmatic stage, which is, uh, old age. And so we're now forced to, we've seen the world where a lot more relaxed. We don't respond like we used to. Right? So we're experiencing these different stages in life.

Tanzim: 01:11:36 Is it possible new, like the enough's like I know like in terms of if you're younger you feel more useful, you know, you get attracted to girls more easily, this and that. But then when you grow up, you know, the enough's kind of recite on that um, level. And then I know like it's a big thing, especially for older people, if they do z enough, for example, because of the enough's like you're not, shouldn't be inclining to do that. So is that interconnected as well with temperament?

Isaaq: 01:11:59 I'm an not, I'm not sure about sins though, but, but what Mama, cause I just speak about is that enough? Salama and the innocent Amara Busuu which is the lowest level, which is the nurse that commands to evil. And then there's the, the enough said Lama, which is the one that's this the soul that's working on itself. It's growing, it's working sort of against itself and with itself and trying to, it's wrestling with yourself. And then you have the innocent with my in now, which is enough that's, uh, at peace. And that links to the four temperaments as to how each of them is manifesting it via them. And what role the, um, the, the for each of the temperaments has in regards to taming this off. But he speaks about it. I mean we were speaking at it just from the four temperaments perspective, but he speaks about enrichment cause you mentioned a spiritual cultivation and sitting and things like that.

Isaaq: 01:12:44 Like we don't really go into that into this workshop, but we start that we give guidance. The w the, the four temperament gives, it's like, you know, using knowledge and with something that you already know and it just gives you another tool in going at it. So there's certain diseases of the heart that each of the four temperaments are more prone to now that's going to be far more harmful. So when you read a book on like purification of the heart for example, or shade comes to use of, which is a brilliant book, you'll see that certain diseases of the heart that you're more susceptible to. And what I'll do is, is rather than you going through it and trying to figure it out, he'll just give you a list of them and you'll be like, oh my gosh, yeah, clearly those are the ones I struggle with.

Isaaq: 01:13:19 And there's ones that, you know, I just struggled with, sorry. Um, and others struggle with and it just helps you in that whole process. So it's like, you know, and that's why when we set alum and [inaudible], all right, benefit me, why, why, what you've already taught me. So let me use what I know before I lived in my, in founder and then teach me that will should benefit me. So what we're saying is, let me combine what I have rather than just learn this thing. And now I'm learning fic. Like once [inaudible] who were studying, we were studying fic and all of our teachers have it. One more of was saying that he goes, you know, um, when you study in fear of purification of war is the first, one of the first chapters is water. Looking at how water could be of three types that which purifies that which is, which is pure, it's off and you can purify that which is pure. It's tough, but he can't purify and that which is NPO and he can't be purify either. And he said, these are like human beings, like company that you have this pure itself

Isaaq: 01:14:12 and it can help you out. Then there's that. Those are job pure themselves, but they can't really help you out in purifying you. And then there's straight of the MPO ones and they're going to make you MPO. So when you start to develop a, an existence like that, then as a student of any subject, you can take the knowledge far, far wider and the use of it just becomes something else. And we've seen that with, with good teachers that we've ever had and that's why I remember when she comes, I said, if you ever sit in a class of poetry it with a true teacher of poetry or become, it will be one of the most profound classes you've ever had because of what they do in here. We read that sentence, it's like one day someone will come by. Okay, what does that mean? But the poet, the teacher of poetry, we'll see one day someone will come by and then we'll say a three, three more lines. And you'd be like, ah, oh my God, that's me right now in my life. One day someone came up

Malik: 01:15:05 because they were making in terms of just the tool, the tools as well, like when all were stunning, um, [inaudible] you know, first time I ever heard, you know, you know, in order to kind of unlock Atheda that you need to online use, learn the tools to unlock those a ton off our pizza and as like, well, what is the tool for that? And then he was like [inaudible] right? And so we studied logic. Your logic for the pdf. Yeah. So we started logic before we even got into it and it opened the credible understanding a lot more. So it's very similar. It's all the liberal arts. They call the liberal arts because they liberate the mind

Isaaq: 01:15:47 study, Grammar. You study logic, you study rhetoric, look what a logic just gave you. But let's just take grammar for a moment. What does grammar teach you? Would a syntax teach you? One of the earliest things that we were forced to do when you studied Arabic was that you understood that words that are word has a meaning based on syntax as is. Where is it in the sentence, the order as it had and it has indicators right there rob, like how you indicate where its placement is and then what's that got to do with anything? Well you start to understand that anything happens in your life, it has a context. Usually somebody's doing something, you put the action in the context of that sentence, right? So you're not quick to judge your zooming yet. When you study grammar, you, you're taught to zoom out, where does this word fit in the sentence and where does the sentence fit in the paragraph?

Isaaq: 01:16:32 Where does that paragraph fit in the chapter or that chapter fit in the book is this constant making in looking at things holistically. And you know, if you were to translate holistic looking at things holistically, you could almost translate it as I'm making things one which is in Arabic, we call it the verb is way harder. And the the now in his though he'd, so human being is already there. So you know this, the ability to do though he'd, if you have the ability to tow heat, you can see the one, but the, the, the, the western philosophy is the complete opposite. Interested in making things one there is, what's the opposite of making one? Making many. Yeah. Deconstructing. So if you know your philosophy now in deconstructing Cartesian dualisms break everything apart, David Hume, I have one of analysts, what is the apple, it's not an red apple.

Isaaq: 01:17:29 It's is this an apple dimension to it? And that there's redness to it. And even the redness they'll say, oh, it's not, it's not red. It's light hitting that surface. Our particular degree. And that's manifesting the, you know, and the non profit. He talking about, they're just different ways of saying the house. Somebody had one way of saying it. The other person had another way of saying it. Sorry Arthur Yaki does. Yeah. But all of these don't change the fact that it exists, that there's a right apple in front of us and I would like to eat it. Yeah. That's what we did yesterday at the temperament. Cause that's something that someone's mentioned. And, and you know, I said you can try to say, oh, but how does that work? And I'm not really interested in how that works. I'm at, I'm, what I'm saying is, is this is, and you can't deny that it is.

Isaaq: 01:18:15 So let's make do with, with what is, and then the how in the how. It's why being a maths teacher and I like precision coming from a scientific background, uh, and a mathematic mathematical background. So I, I like precision. That's why I love logic. Cause it was straight. It's one answer, but, and what you find in this, the science in particular, it has a completeness to it. And then the pilot right. Yesterday on Sunday. So he said at the end, he said, first I was thinking, where is all of this stuff? How does it make sense? Being a pilot? He has to be melancholic and clarify and colleague, right? He has to be, it has to make sense. All right. And he'll let you know. It has to make sense. And he said, but at the end he said the first two modules you said, I was thinking like, yes, it sounded all airy fairy. He said, but the second two modules probably all made sense. It all made sense. You're all put it together that you said, right. And um,

Tanzim: 01:19:09 that's what we're after man. And even like you can work out people's temperaments and work out what job and what they'd be suited at. And even like you mentioned from it, cause I'll come from also like a sellsy sort of background. Like I did sales like full five years ago. And even how you interact with people, if you can work out the temperament, then you can kind of suck at them to get the product. Yes, it's true. It's like unlocking not just like yourself by you. Just understanding of the world cause I guess end of the day, um, people operate by the intentions and you can kind of get where they're coming from in terms of personality. You've kind of unlocked a dementia of the universe, if that makes sense in a sense. Because everything around in the world, like I remember I was having this thought I was driving down.

Tanzim: 01:19:52 I'm like we looking at, we're looking at like a capitalist system in the sense that you have like [inaudible] are hungry jacks, you have like roads but only external because it's what we wanted. Like whatever we wanted out of Xyz. Enough's. It's just in the external. That's essentially what I'm like I'm seeing around me. You know what I mean? And then it's like what it actually boils down to is that you have to kind of get at the intention of what do I really, do people really have a grasp of the enough's or the desires. Can they really control or cause whatever they're thinking or doing. They, Oh, I'm hungry, I'm just going to eat. That's it. It's just like come and go, come and go. And it's kind of [inaudible]

Isaaq: 01:20:30 the Trump. Yeah. All right. But, um, but you're right, man,

Malik: 01:20:33 I think one of the things that you said and question to you, you said the word Sucker, right? So I'm looking, I'm thinking about like one of the negative usages of the temperaments and how can someone be, you know, using for their own hands. Yeah.

Isaaq: 01:20:49 Well, people do. When people did this, I mean, you know, people use, in my philosophy, this is part of animal philosophy was it was, it was this whole science of working at these subtleties. So, you know, these famous, uh, life coaches out there who are able to work at 10, uh, uh, the personalities of people just by, uh, the way their shoulders. Some people haven't shoulders like these, some people have really relaxed shoulders, so that we'll have some people's check. The caloric has the chest out. Generally. Sigmatic sort of tucks it in a little bit, Eh, and, um, and you can use this for your own personal gain. But that's why I say very clearly, every workshop I've done this, I've always said, if you use the temperaments, um, and you ever say a statement like to defend yourself as an excuse, if you use the temperaments as an excuse, I'm not interested.

Isaaq: 01:21:34 I also make mention meant many times that this isn't about knowing others of using these, using the temperaments to work out others, then that's not the purpose. We can do that in a part two, part three, but right now it's important to work out yourself. Um, but as for like, you know, you can't control that someone takes it and naturally you do that. When you had an instance yesterday and you just hope in Charlotte, like people have good intentions in it, but like any science, it can be taken in, in a, in a bad way and, and use it. But you know, you used it with your sister.

Malik: 01:22:01 Yeah. Listen to this [inaudible] yesterday. So just run out of the class. I got home after a long day and um, you know, little kids, young kids playing with their phones and while I was trying to take my phone, the phone of my younger sister, so, and they were, my mom was like screaming like, give me the fine. You're like, you know, you're talking to your friends all night, go to sleep or go study. So I saw one type of approach and I know my sister, she's a more of a saint one phlegmatic right? So I went in and like just, you know, sat with her and I was like, you know, mom is shouting, um, who do you call it? You know, how long have you been studying? How many hours did you study today? You know, if you stay up all night tonight, um, how would you feel? How would you feel tomorrow morning? Won't have the energy to do the work and all these, like just a softer approach. Right. And she just gave me the front like that. And my mom was like, she couldn't get it. Like, if you just see her whole shut up, she did everything that you're to get it off of her. Like just like, you know, use it. Sometimes they need that software. Tiff, you go color on

Tanzim: 01:23:06 them, they just get agitated and they won't work. The same wine will be like, even like family, um, dynamics. People like the dad, you know, from like a Bengali household sometimes want to be like overpowering or maybe um, soft as well. Some of them bullish to say that, but that is generally gotta be more softer though. Yeah, there'd be more softer. Yeah. But my easy you a Punjabi, Punjabi, that is something that's a lot more, you know, in your face, in your face and they have that approach with the kids and because their kids don't like that approach, you know, they never actually opened up to the dad. I think it kind of destroys families. It's a bit scary, I think about it. It's like a disconnect from the self because we don't understand the self and people's natures where we just like, it's like what, right. To me on this episode, you telling me what do you think of fire and water? And I'll saying, you know, I was picturing so like their perception. So if you're looking for one sector, you're fi think like everyone's just gonna vibe with you, you can cross your point and they'll reciprocate was not the case. Next question. So that will be, how does it work with relationships?

Isaaq: 01:24:10 Yeah, well I mean just to, I went to the add on to what you just said, like that's not a one off like I've had people actually messaged me that the one that you should of hoping on an Instagram as opposed to she said, yeah, I saw my son is a cleric and she said, I looked at him and I was like, I knew who was killer and I tried out what this guy taught us at this workshop. He just simplified this, the relationships via this framework. She said, I tried it, he said to with the cleric what we say. So with a flag in it, you need to have that conversation and then, and they feel you, you've given them time and they feel like, oh my gosh, you've understood me for a while. That means more to them for the clarity. They're not interested in that.

Isaaq: 01:24:42 What would the one of the ways to motivate a cleric, and if you're a caloric yourself is a challenge yourself. Zero. Those fiery people, when you challenge them, you can't pray five times a day, which means I can't hear it. You can't pray. It's okay. You can't pray. You know, I try three year in like that lower level. Like, that's cool, does it? No, I can prove out that you can't pray five times a day and it's okay. They will transcend because this is the beauty of the cat cleric. It really is. They can transcend their own environment, just for, for, for, for gain of something. And you'd give them the right gains. Then they'll go and do that. And um, and so she said that to her son. She said, uh, you haven't done your homework, have you? And he said, no. She says, yeah, you can do it.

Isaaq: 01:25:25 It's all right. You can't do anything. The only value and she is, is that what you're talking about? I can do it. And she wrote the dialogue is hilarious and then she is, I should really have it. Then in the end she just said, no, you can't do it. It's okay. And he said, no mom, I can do it. And she said, no, it's fine. And then she just left. I always say didn't leave him and she said he did it. As she said, I'm sitting there thinking, no drama, this or she said, no drama, no swearing, no tears, no crying. She just got out and she said, I can't believe how simple it was. And it's worked for my own relationships. That's one of the reasons why half. I mean think about if you come to your siblings and say, and you come with these tablets saying, I've received these tablets from the vantage of the heavens that this is going to change our, how many of them are going to believe you?

Isaaq: 01:26:04 They only believe you because they've actually seen a difference in you. So a lot of my students were interested because they'd seen a difference. So then they came in and so and so, so they just said, yeah, I want to listen to it. And they listened to it and because my uh, problems with people who I know also, um, not, not to say that we never have arguments, but they do decrease the day. I guarantee you they'll decrease like his decreased in one day. One less stress because you understand most people are not reacting to you based off you. That's just the way they are. Like even though you know what it was, you know, your dad or whatever responds the way he does. That's just the way he is. And if you, if you try to like, uh, tranquilize that incorrectly, you'll mess it up.

Isaaq: 01:26:52 Yeah. If you like try over pally no, their concern. Exactly. If you just say, you're right, if you that is, you know, go get a job son. I like, all right, done the next day he says, do you, did you guys jobs on, you say, no, I sent this, I sent my CV off today to three places. That's all he wants on one brother came to me once and he said, Nah, like how do you improve relations? I said, cause they only want a few things off. You declared this wants to see you doing something so just do something.

Isaaq: 01:27:21 Even if it's not like you didn't do anything, just say like don't lie. Yeah. It's just like I said to see me off or you didn't send anything off cause then they'll be really angry when you find that you've been lying. Right. And that's why I can trust to be there and everything catches up, man. Everything catches up and you just, you've got gotta be honest with yourself. Like that's why I'm saying like if you can be, that's why the whole thing is, is if you can be honest with yourself and you accept your reflect matic a part of you is you're going to get lazy. You then have a target for yourself, which is I need to send cvs and then automatically it works out because you set a CV for yourself and so when a judge asks you like, yeah, actually I did send it.

Isaaq: 01:27:57 My Dad's a collect Monica. We had an interesting discussion just before I came, so one of my friends was running late. It's interesting in the listening or reds is running late and my dad was saying to text your friends, you're coming to text your friend your mission flight. He said it like six times and every time I didn't, I was just, I just, I sat at the text the first time, the for the second three times he said, I said, are Dah Dah, just same message. That's it though. Don't get me wrong. It was quite frustrating like because it's the sixth time you saying like is not going to speed up right. But I didn't say it straight away because he needs to say it six times. So once he said it six times, then I, then the sixth or seventh time he had said it now and I clearly sent the texts while she was there. I sent two to two tax in that time. Then I said to my dad that it's not going to speed him up. So we've sent two texts. We'll just wait now and I never see my dad just us. Well honest to God, he just goes, yeah, I just sat back and he stayed quiet the whole time till when my friend came because a part of it was I let him be,

Isaaq: 01:28:59 you will be happier. Everyone will be happier in the relationship if cause even when someone is telling you the right thing while you're frustrated is they didn't let you just be for a moment. We just want to be, and that's why our household can become a toxic environment for us when they don't let us be. That's why we've gone on into our rooms cause in our rooms we can be right, right. Amazing. Is there, we go to our rooms because that's the place to be. One of the reasons why we don't go to the mosque is why? Because they don't let us be. So we don't do the third spaces because the third space they let us and we still listen to what needs to be said, but they accept us. So remember that man, the young boy who came to the prophets or somebody said, Ursula, give me permission to [inaudible] either. Yeah. Yeah. He goes, give me permission to, of, okay, I had the prophets and so almost the Harvard and other process, some did put his arm around it, sit down. He let him be, he acts like he validated him, man upon a little, he let him, he was okay to ask that question cause it's real talk. And that guy was real as I wasn't, he just there. I just get into a frightened straight. He's getting his struggles real short. There must be a way out of you or something like [inaudible].

Isaaq: 01:30:19 Right. And then the process is about a dollar with it, but not straight away. And even the way the conversation was, it was so like, would you like that for your mom or your Auntie? Which that of your sister, hey. But the first bit's key man. The first bits, everything in relationships or law, like, you know what I was saying, when you start to be uncomfortable with yourself and that's what, check this out, Maddie, this is gold now. Right? When you start sitting with yourself and all the discomfort comes up and all your nonsense starts to surface, but you sit with it, you don't run away from it and you start to compartmentalize it for the first time. Now you have sat in discomfort. So the next time someone comes to you with discomfort, you have the ability to sit with it. But most people can't sit with somebody else's discomfort because they can't sit with an on discomfort.

Isaaq: 01:31:06 So they're quick to react. And it's only because you cost it with yourself. If you sat with yourself, you'd realize that technique doesn't work on me. All right? But it's not my place to school you on that cause what can I do? You know, I was in San Francisco now staring at the bridge and it was beautiful. And my friend was next to me and I said, you know what a beautiful view, but check that out over there. And he said, oh I can't see. And you know why you couldn't see it? Cause there was a lamppost in front of him. All right. So the view was was was, was the, his, what he was seeing was something that there was an obstacle in the place and his way than his vision. And I said, it's just there. And he said, no, I can't see. I can't see. And I said, dude, just move. Change your perception. And the only way you can change people, they are literally waiting for lampposts to move. That lamppost ain't going nowhere. Your Dad is not going to change the way he is. He did that for 50 years. He's to continue. And not just your dad, but all of our dads, well I know people live. I know one guy who said to me, I'm waiting for my parents to apologize.

Malik: 01:32:06 Smell

Isaaq: 01:32:07 I just holidays like you just waiting for it. That's waiting for a lamppost that will never move. The only thing you can do channel is just man, just move for your own sake. Summary thoughts. Boom. Right. And uh, and a, and you know what? And you know, it was clerical and clerics go off what they know. So you know what I said to him, a flag would be different. I'd say I, how does it feel being in the same place for the last 10 years? I sold work for a flight and he'd be sitting there thinking, you know what doesn't really feel good. What do you think you can do about it? You know, maybe I can change perception like you said. All right good. And then the move a caloric would, you can't do that with the cleric we say to the cleric is cause they off go off what they know.

Isaaq: 01:32:42 So I said to him, I was like, all right, just out of curiosity, where have you seen that happen? Have you ever seen that happen in real life? Like where have you seen that? Do you know a friend of yours whose parents apologized and you know he said he goes, yeah of course I saw in a movie, I just said I did the old Kermit the frog, you know, and my cup of tea. I just said so in a movie. Cool Bro. Cause I don't usually sit there with a caloric and say, well how stupid is that? Yeah. Just don't do that with the colored cause you're not at the loo. They'll defend the city plan. Yeah. And try to do all they can to, to prove the crappy theory. That is absolute nonsense. So you just give them, that's because this fire, you don't mess around with fire.

Isaaq: 01:33:28 Don't poke fire. You're silly. You're silly. If you poke fire at fire people, you just need to put the right thing in there. Sorry, I moved back in there and put the right thing, the right element in it. And the fire starts to change color. You just need the right Ah, element. Which is the knowledge. And that's why with Malcolm x, when you change the knowledge she had, you had different results. All right. But when you, it's amazing and you know, so, and that's why when he, when he lived the life he did, it was when his teacher said like, Oh, you'd be able to become a lawyer. I remember that. Oh yeah. Right. Yeah. He said, you see his response to that? He transcended his social. Do farming.

Malik: 01:34:12 Yeah. I think then hell, how do you take this knowledge? And you said there's a difference between what's your nature and what's your nurture, um, how do you start to develop and to nurture? What's the next step from this?

Isaaq: 01:34:29 Well, I'm in, you know, the first is that, you know, like the biggest thing that you're going to receive from all of this is this, the ability to, and the importance of reflection. And like I'm not speaking from a perspective of having mastered life and I certainly don't, I just say this is a science and it's a brilliant science and just take it. That's all I'm sharing. And there's more information to share. So as an educator, you know, I'm just teaching essentially, but in terms of we're, where do people go with this? It's the more you reflect, the more you learn the, like I know more of the temperaments because I more on

Isaaq: 01:34:58 like what did we do at the beach yesterday? [inaudible] we did some vicar. No, before I have a, I have a father figure or diversity. Do you remember the, when you said [inaudible]

Speaker 6: 01:35:08 blowing your gauge [inaudible] dag A's and the victim angels, the beach of Ali. We load that gaze CD. We've got a private spot, so yeah, there's no gazes, but look what we'd like to do on the water. We looked at

Isaaq: 01:35:29 clouds, we looked at earth that was arrived and we started speaking about the temperaments. We spoke about how when the water comes, it's so gentle like the phlegmatic, but when you go deep inside those quiet people, it's very deepen his appointment. You go past and the tie takes you in to those quiet people. The very gentle first, but you know, if you take your time to sit with them, all of a sudden you find out, Whoa, yeah, well that was going on and they take you into their tight, right. We also said, look at the clouds and the clouds are beautiful at that point. It's very, so that's like a sanguine, there's always something going on with them. It's a Skus. It's a spectacle to what,

Speaker 6: 01:36:00 look at me, look at me, look at me. Then there's the,

Isaaq: 01:36:04 then there's earth just sitting there playing its role. That's what they like to melancholic, suggest. They just crack on with what they need to do that the most exciting thing to see. But so my point is, is, so where do you take this? The more you reflect what are the last ace and Orihime I add enough in Af Archi, Wafi unforeseen. We'll show them our science on the horizon and in and of themselves. I tell you to be in a la and huck until it is made clear to them that it is the truth. That's why our laws put us on this planet. You just bet your relationships, keep learning, keep experiencing. And then there's so many more ideas. There's a book by um, I was aided bulky in ninth century, cognitive behavioral therapy by a ninth century Muslim scholar. And he speaks about, uh, four chief mental illnesses.

Isaaq: 01:36:52 And I'm telling you two is linked entirely to the temperament. And I've tested this. Some people have said that's the biggest thing that's been your problem in your life. And then they like, oh my gosh. And then I've given them advice of how to tranquilize it simply by what he says. This whole thing. I don't have like the answers myself or the, not my answers, the answers by the teachers are already there. In our rich tradition, we just need to connect people in the right manner, in the right form with the right package. And so then part two, part three, there'll be a, I've already set up a website where there'll be the course will be online available for people as well. Obviously it's better to do it in like live because it's, it's an experience really. It's, it's really interactive. But I also want to offer it online because there's been a lot of people from Europe and all over the world really.

Isaaq: 01:37:33 We've been interested. There also be a, this other thing in Charlotte, there'll be a whole lot of a lot of stuff and then eventually they'll be mentoring as well that I want to give people because there's a lot of people that are asking questions and like, even my Instagram, the Sony message is coming through and I just can't respond to people. There's people who have messages. I've been there for like a week now. And, um, but you know, I can't, so I want to just put a process and that's what we were right. Just have a process

Isaaq: 01:37:56 in place and hopefully, ah, but yet it's, it's really where you take it and how much you take it. But I always say to everyone at the end of the workshop by at least one of those books, start reading it and improve your relationships. I just want people just to better their own the relationship to themselves. I just get that and I'm on that journey, Devin, that I'm saying is not that Oh, and then have 400 Yogis mastered himself and I'm going to shave my head off the same way. And is where, no, it's um, I'm just just like you on the journey and you can see this right now. Like I'm not anything special. I just came across the science, take it and let's all just heal the world, make it a better place

Tanzim: 01:38:37 that I've like realized, you know, I'm looking into Islam and there's so much depth to it. Somehow online we've sort of, I dunno, like catered for the modern world where we've just kind of shoved in this one little package and big time people,

Isaaq: 01:38:51 100% man. People [inaudible] know how many guys go to the mosque and say, you know, I, I want to um, um, don't want to get close to God. And then someone says you start to tire because, or start the fit class. Like when someone says I want to get close to God is supposed to say, tell me more. What do you mean then you low. If you actually needs a fit class, we might need [inaudible] classes. Yeah, he might need a just wants to do with liquor on the weekend. He might want to study Arabic, he might want to read the Shamil he might want to do something. There's so much to do. Right, but just here people out. But we don't hear people out cause we know bear

Tanzim: 01:39:37 and it's like you have to always be that perspective of being, trying to work things out. Don't try to assume that you know everything already, but that sort of limits your idea of getting knowledge. I guess. If you just think you already know everything, you're not going to really and truly learn.

Isaaq: 01:39:51 I was the door that we rented the, and we read that all the workshops, lar, il, Marlana, Ilana, I lymphona. That's what the angels responded. That's how we should respond. Especially in a class [inaudible]. There's no knowledge by ourselves in Lama Arlington except by what you've taught in NACA until this idea of, you know God's names. When you say God's name, you put yourself in your place. When you say until Arlene, you're the all no English is affirming that I ain't going to clue in like until allium will Hakim and you're the all all wise and I just mess up. Yeah, that's, that's the reality. Yeah. Even on the votes governments, you know, I still mess up. Everyone messes up and I will go on about the term. It was like the game changer, but I still fail, but that's the nature of like, you know, this is the nature. This is the balance that the human being gets put into. You know, that I was just sharing with a friend and I just said that, you know, people see them, this is their like, you know, people say like, oh good on Ya, stay winning. Stuff like that. And I said, you know, it's a day for you on a day against you. Okay,

Isaaq: 01:40:54 yeah, I'll use it. I, I did, I was, this day's full, your days against you and the rest bonds was brilliant response. It was um, oh, I can't read the exact wording, but it was along the lines of and the snake stay centered in any of the days.

Tanzim: 01:41:09 Hmm.

Isaaq: 01:41:10 On the days full, you stay centered Hamdulillah the days against you

Isaaq: 01:41:15 slow for la maybe. Well even then Alhamdulillah, it could be worse point being as you stay at the center. I don't know if you're familiar with the wheel of fortune. You familiar with we had a fortune. Yeah. No, it's this, this, ah, this one with the TV show. No, no, no. This is this, this theory and one of my teachers speaks of a shy, comes with use of speech. He speaks about it. He told us that ally in 2014 but he just mentioned that, you know, wherever everyone essentially is on this wheel, things are going good. Things are going bad, things are on the up, things on the way that in any case you're always expected to have the appropriate response and have the appropriate response. So, you know, that's the human being being scented, man.

Tanzim: 01:41:59 It's being sent. It's really funny cause I'm, I was really thinking about this like last night about Islam taking the middle path with everything. Yeah. So for example, we obviously care about the, um, afterlife, but we've also got engaged with the Dunia see, take the middle path. You know, you do what you need to do Dunia and then you also worry about the hero. Yeah. You take that middle path even with things like not oversleeping and not too much, um, too little sleep. Yeah. It's about taking that on as bar. Like an Islam just comes into the picture. It's like you don't say there's multiple gods, but you didn't and say there's No God, you take the middle path. It's like even, yeah. Yeah. Like with everything else out and realizing even, um, I like even with the idea of, you know, how there materialist scientists, they're like, you know, always sees the world. It's like Islam is like, we know there's a dimension and we take that middle path, you know, engage, you know, a lot. There's an unseen and then there's like a scene world. You take the middle part, you know what I mean? So, yeah.

Isaaq: 01:42:57 Smallish. My perfect balance. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. And you know, in life we're trying to navigate between that because we always, by our nature going to extremes. By nature, we're going to extremes. I'm weird. I kind of see. So when just trying to balance it constantly, you know, the secret, the secret, the real secret, which is not such a secret. Tell me since then he's just followed the similar, it's entirely balanced by smile. That's the beauty of the DOL. And you know what? You get more knowledge and whatever knowledge you get, you realize, oh my gosh, the balance is there. Like the process of even with diet, like just have the, the, the cucumber, right, which is cold and, and, and uh, and moist, right? Phlegmatic right. And have a date which is hot and dry, which is a caloric and eat that and it'll balance you out. The, the, the Sundar is complete balance. And what I find is all she's incredible in is with the sun and

Malik: 01:43:52 with the Chorion it's pretty much getting you to do two things. There's like things that which are action based, you should be doing these things and there are things that are just like shifting mindsets, right? Like what you were saying about a moment are these quote and I'll ask one last, my hundred dollar sales is like, you know, remember me, you know, good days and I remember you and your bad days. Right. And what you were saying in the workshop as well, like you know, when we're in a tribulation or in a difficulty or even sometimes when not when we're not in with difficulty. Right. Just the stress of it does more damage than the actual tribulation. All right. Even, you know, when we were going through be silly beliefs with having the gun and you know, one of the tricks of the shade line is to make you feel poverty.

Malik: 01:44:37 You're not even in poverty, right? You're just fearing it. Even the ID that you know, like you know, you have to show hope in a law. So it's like the you to actually have hope in a law to achieve what you need to. So it's all about essentially the mindset is shifting the mindset and having, getting that perfect balance. So when you are in a difficult situation, you have the appropriate response. Right? Even when we're studying at [inaudible], it's like the entire poem was about trials and tribulations, but even now and the entire book in the beginning it, it asks us for an increase of their difficulty, right? First reaction, initial reaction is like ask for an increase in the difficulty. Like what kind of, you remember, I'll ask these questions [inaudible] but you're not asking a lot to increase the difficulty. You are speaking directly to the difficulty that you're facing.

Malik: 01:45:35 So now you have this relationship with the difficulty, right? So there's a complete mindset. Usually when you're in a difficult, like in a trial, you would just see you just go passive, you or you just wait for it to get to lead, right? But then he goes through the entire thing and shifting and looking at the benefits of the tribulation, which [inaudible] said about difficulty itself, that it's the package that the gift comes in, right? So once you open the tribulation, right, you unwrap it like the, the gift is there, right? So once again, shifting the perception and then sort of how la, like you get to the end of alimony footage [inaudible] all it tells you it gets to the dice. So the entire thing is shifting perceptions and then it gets to the dye along the Sunday. And I see that, I'm like, we make abundance silhouette. Right. And that's what ties into your point. Just following up on, I have to have that whole door to be president, president. We're all you what you were saying feign at other one

Isaaq: 01:46:40 it yes, Paula. You know, it's all like being present like, and what, what's striking with certain people we experience when we meet is how deal

Isaaq: 01:46:50 presence is the foundations for, for dealing with this situation. He Ain't present. You're not dealing with anything. So how have you ever speak to us in the dealing with something else, which is not the situation. Yeah. What is the thought Mahasi yesterday about being uh, uh, Juma hobos taking places in thing and he said that was the football was taking place. The guy who was speaking was speaking and he was speaking so passionately, but it wasn't, but everyone was switched off because he wasn't present.

Malik: 01:47:18 Mm.

Isaaq: 01:47:18 It was elsewhere. So we don't, we get present first find out what's going on, whether it's with yourself, whether it's with the son law, whether it's whatever, just be present. And one of the ways you can be present is just a breed properly.

Tanzim: 01:47:33 It's, it's funny cause even people that may not be Muslim and they are living the corporate life and the dislike going back and forth, it's like they've lost themselves, you know? Yeah. It's, yeah, it's all empty, smaller and I guess I can't explain it. I feel you could say there's a the system in place that keeps them going like a cog in a wheel sort of thing or they themselves haven't really dealt with what's in front of them and really being in the moment. Cause I know people like that that say, you know, I just did this degree, now I'm doing this job. I should, I know what I'm doing my life and it's relatable to everything I use like to everyone.

Malik: 01:48:19 I think just in touching on what Hamad, ty was saying about the drummer, I think the opposite of that as well. These how often do you go to a dentist or a class and you walk in and you're like, that teacher just expressed exactly what I was feeling all whole week. You spoke true to what I was experiencing. Yeah. Because that person is a person of presence. Right. And sometimes we believe, you know, divine inspiration, they'll ask for Hannah to ana puts those words, um, and sort of Bernie words. And the articulation of that is a different dimension to it, right? And so we go in and we're like, that is exactly what I needed to hear today. How, you know, and you do that over, like even when you open some of the traditional books, the heck isn't even on time. Like every single Hickam life.

Malik: 01:49:08 For me, when I read it, when I read the comes, it's like the proper placement of words that hits the core a lot of the times. And once again, shifts your perception and your perspective. I remember I was in Hajj, um, and they pre the year before that I was in, um, on what are with, uh, [inaudible] and that, that nominal was an incredible experience. And then I came back the next year to do hajj and also trying to replicate that exact same experience. Right? And I just wasn't feeling, you know, my presence wasn't there in front of the camera. And I was, you know, um, blaming Maha know you've got a dead heart,

Tanzim: 01:49:48 et cetera. So I go home and I open up city Michael, so good sport. And one of the hiccups is like, we don't do this for Felix. We do this because it told us to do it. So once again, like the proper place on of things. Exactly what you need to hear. Cause there's these experiences that he's talking about. We all go through them. Yeah.

Isaaq: 01:50:09 All right. But it's, it's that presence. It's, you know, it kind of goes back to that presence that you bring. You know, it's like what are you bringing to the situation? You know, are you bringing yourself to the situation? Because then you're going to get something. But if you're looking for something else, so other than yourself, and that's why one of our teachers, he's one of the, one of my teachers who gave me a great understanding of how this particular science fits in traditional medicine. He's a great Hakim Hakim sitting con and he, and one of the things you were speaking about emotional states, he said most people's emotional state is a result of the emotional diet. Hmm. What do you mean most people's emotional state? So whatever your emotional state is your state right now, positive thinking, negative thinking, whatever you have high self esteem, low self esteem, your emotional state is a product of your emotional diet.

Isaaq: 01:51:03 So if you have people telling you you are good enough, then you think you're good enough. You have [inaudible], you're not good enough, you're not good enough. You thinking that. So it's, yeah, it's, it's incredible. Like you know, just the same way physically, whatever my physical dye is, is what my physical makeup is right now. If I've been eating good, I'll be feeling good. If I'm eating junk, I'll be ill. The same thing spiritually, right? If I feed myself correctly, then I feel spiritually strong. If I starved myself of spiritual sustenance, then I'll be spiritually unwell and whatever he, he take on the characteristics of him in me. That's what you restrict me. We all know that meet one. But what about what we take in, in terms of knowledge? What was the spiritual state of the person who said that? What they said to you ever considered that in this, in the things that we read, there's a spiritual state of the person who said that. Hmm. Right? So if you're reading good stuff, great. If you're just watching some random crap on youtube here, right? Or if you're watching some random nonsense anywhere, well if you actually listen to six stuff, you're going to take the agitation of that soul on, into your soul and you going to be left with an agitation. He sold

Tanzim: 01:52:12 like, um, Islamic calligraphy for example. The people who like those, this um, discussion where you can just get like a three d printer for example, or whatever to make, those are works that are like Islamic art works, right? But if you actually compare it with a three d printer with someone who actually did it with passion and love for a law, you see that manifests compared to even the three d print, even though it replicated the same. But you see two different things, even though it's the same thing, it comes down to the, I guess the vessel, the person who actually, you know, did it, it's kind of relating back to what you said about the person who's actually conveying knowledge to you and what state they were in. Yeah.

Isaaq: 01:52:51 I'll give you another example. Um, Eman Shafi even when he was learning a subject for some, some people his dries fit also fit right. He chose his teachers based on their love for the prophesies. All right, so that was a measure. That's amazing. Right? Amazing.

Tanzim: 01:53:14 In terms of, of random. So I remember thinking was, um, things in the Er, I think. Um, I think, gosh, I can't remember. But anyways, I think it was Emma Malik. He was teaching a class and he was, um, he was asking students like, what's your perspective this? And then those like are random. I'm not homeless. I think more of a nomadic person that kind of walked by and uh, Emma Malik asked him like, I think his name was ratio burn or something. And it's like, what do you think? And then the students are like, why'd you ask him? And then he said, because he's been through things that you guys have done. So it's all about, not necessarily in terms of knowledge, but it's about perspective.

Isaaq: 01:53:53 Does this experience. Yeah. And that's all. That's all what contributes to the state. Right? And that's why we can sit in people's state. I feel peace that they use speaking because the spiritual dimension is a, is a real, I mentioned it's more real and the physical dimension because even in a physical dimension, people can speak and you can ignore what they said. Okay. But in a spiritual world and but being in tune with the spiritual senses, you can sit with people and you just don't like the vibe. Yeah. Mm. Because the spiritual centers have their own.

Tanzim: 01:54:29 He is.

Isaaq: 01:54:30 And if that's alien to anyone, oh, spiritual dimension has spiritually or just your soul. It has spiritually as a spiritual, spiritual, uh, uh, like how can it speak without a mouth? Say something in your head right now. Just say a sentence in your head. Say someone's name. Right. You said that without a mouth. This is a whole, this is epistemology man. Because it's like then when people question like, oh how can God speak without math? Oh what's his mouth like? Like you accept the fact that you can speak to yourself without speaking or when it goes to God, we'll have a whole debate on but wait, but does he have a mouth? Some hung one. Agitated. Oh I've got, that's why the heating for most of those guys isn't the discussion. It's scary off your chest man. What made you angry? What's made you just so bitter? Get that bitter part of the healing process is let it go. Stop crying. That's why I just give him a cup of tea, man.

Tanzim: 01:55:29 You didn't like just to take a real life example. I know like sales people for example, you know they make the salaries and they have to make on a two three sales a day to kind of get by. Right. But yeah, you'll see good people, good sales people from bad salespeople's cause they have the thought optimism in their mind, that perspective that they are going to get that two, three cells and actually manifests compared to someone who is negative. Even though it might be saying the same things as the same guy, the other guy, but he's not doing well. It's not necessarily because, you know, he doesn't have the ability, but ability by just I guess something that, you know, spiritual dementia to kind of manifest like the optimism that he has in the heart. Like he's gonna have, he's gonna do this. Like I remember, um, I was reading, um, miracles of the prophets also.

Tanzim: 01:56:14 Um, I think it was um, uh, even it's a, I can't remember anyways, so the famous scholar wrote it and the, and the miracle that our resources, some did was a lot of times was, you know, there's a little bit of food in everyone, like 40, 50 people able to eat it. I remember I was reading it, I read it like three f the same story, four, three, four times more in different situations. I'm like, is this like a different duration of hadith or something like that? But it's like, it's Russell, somebody that same lunch a lot of times. Right. And the one time it was, um, the Sahaba that kind of came into the house of all sorts of songs. And I think also some as I shared earlier on who like, do we have, um, enough food? It's like, no, we only got like a pot full. I only like one or two people. And he's like, okay, let them feed them. I think it was like 20, 30 Sahaba. Right. But the thing is, the fact that Russell, I'm taught, I showed it on her like scoop from the pot as if the pots full, so skewed from the bottom and give it to them, but don't look at the pot. So scoop as if you think that it's, you know, it's cool. So she kept doing that one person to person people, three people, et Cetera,

Speaker 6: 01:57:22 federal law for about 20 people. Right. And then they left and then it's like, how did this happen? So panel. All right. I showed earlier who said that and I show the old goes and looks in the pot and the Russell also some, oh, I showed them what did you do? You know, that part would have fed people to the day of Judgment. It's the fact that she had to it off and stuff. It's because she was told she was commanded like scoop as if the pots fool. So this kind of manifested in a physical form or mentioning something similar and we do this with our old on the spiritual state of physical. Yeah.

Tanzim: 01:57:57 Even, um, I think even Einstein had this theory of like the thoughts affecting the physical, but you know, from a scientist's perspective, even like, I think quantum physics can kind of tap into that.

Speaker 6: 01:58:09 Yeah. Possibly. Yeah. Somehow. Let's see. It's crazy philosophy and that's why we were polymaths traditionally we knew all the subjects as what we could really like. Whatever we said, we could qualify from any aspect in any question that comes from a Nivo Madagascan instead of saying in, um, the workshop, you said something similar with the rods that we do in the morning. Right. It does shift your mindset like right. It's a proper alignment for your day. All the dyes that you run throughout the right. So if you've got

Malik: 01:58:42 a pretty much a trainee war, you know, system that every morning after fudge, and I'm going to read these old irons and these are that I've been so perfectly placed by ma'am. No, we had the search, I wanted the latte. That was dumb. Your mom. No, it's just incredible when you read them, there's this sense of power that you get, um, and protection and just lie and lie and lie.

Isaaq: 01:59:04 For example, people thinking about anxiety over a particular thing that they might, you know, so most anxiety and fear comes up from to either, uh, either comes in regards to, it's like the fear relates to losing something. All right? So losing can be in two sense in two ways. From opposite. Well, he's book, he says, uh, you're either thinking about what you lost yesterday or what you're going, what, what could you could lose tomorrow? All right, so last, that's where last general, like most of anxiety comes from. The, either you or your, you know, your side over what came here yesterday and what you lost yesterday or you're going to be, um, you're gonna be scared over what you might lose. So, you know, you might lose out on something. He says, that's where all of it lies. And he says, and all of that is not being present. First of all, you're not in today, you worrying about yesterday and tomorrow. Um, but he also, but, but if you look at like the head, the word for example, when we say Marsha, a low cat or Marla, Misha, let me, I couldn't. Hmm.

Speaker 6: 02:00:01 So here is a look.

Isaaq: 02:00:05 Masha Allah will allow world. Marcia Alarcon was, well, my, let me a shot, let me, I couldn't. And what he did not will was not,

Malik: 02:00:14 did not happen.

Speaker 6: 02:00:17 It goes all over. So me thinking about

Isaaq: 02:00:19 losing out on that particular job that I've worked so hard to get or maybe might hit home for a lot more people is if I think about Julio, I didn't get married to

Speaker 6: 02:00:29 it happened or what about Marsha Alo? Kono Mala Min. Shatner. Milken,

Isaaq: 02:00:32 okay.

Speaker 6: 02:00:33 Yeah, it's all gone. I've got, I've got, I've got this personal, so as it relates to the law, as you said, I talked to his brother, turtles, what's the name? [inaudible]

Malik: 02:00:43 sorry, I just had to read through the, what are those all in terms of when you go further down? Alarming. Yes. [inaudible] for me, when I read that it's like to start a new day.

Speaker 6: 02:00:53 Yeah, it's happening. I'm asking your life today. Yeah. I'm asking you. Oh to be so foothold [inaudible] so it's just perfect alignment. But if you're, you've gotta be aware of what you're saying from what many people, they'd be like, wait and translate it. It takes away. And I always say, you know, when I was younger, you know, I used to do,

Isaaq: 02:01:15 um, so I just always have a problem of like, a lot of the stuff in the mosque wasn't in English and it just was like, I was frustrated cause all these guys were buzzing over something that I was missing.

Speaker 6: 02:01:25 I'm like someone telling me what's going on. Um, and what I started doing was I [inaudible]

Isaaq: 02:01:31 he's reading doors in English. [inaudible] first of all, I was having trouble memorizing half of them because Montgomery's Asian was crap. And I never remember oddly a

Speaker 6: 02:01:40 memorized after the timetable. That's it. And maybe just Amo, you know, whatever. But

Isaaq: 02:01:46 um, but just do it in English. Say in English if that's what it means. Like if it's going to have that effect. I just do any English pick pat more important right now. Marsha Alaka even that one. Marcia, I love Mashallah, Carmela, Misha Lama, Marla, Michelle, Amir Khan. So what happened was a w a Marsha, what I love world happened while he did not will did not happen. What's the next part while our Howla or allow quarter 11 like to actually like, you know, I keep saying people say our dogs don't work. I, because you don't know what you're saying.

Tanzim: 02:02:17 Mm.

Speaker 6: 02:02:20 Is this, just to finish off that point is all Armenia Sinclaire fader, Alan Young, so that when you're focusing on the, now you are moving away and the regret of yesterday and anxiety of tomorrow and your focused on the now and as a Muslim we're taught to me if we don't walk to be a person all the time to be in the moment and being present and be present. But again like we'll listen to this and say, um, you know, works for you. You don't work for me. Honestly I would say how much have you tried? Yeah, exactly. Like really a lot of people you haven't tried like did, did you try and I don't mean to,

Isaaq: 02:02:53 you know, I just think that energy was used because people do try. But I mean, you know, energy was used very, very well. It wasn't supposed to, you know, people work so hard and in certain parts of the Dina, you know, so someone wants to get to a lot and then he spends two years memorizing a verb tables in Arabic. I put the shift in to get close to God. Why am I not there? Why? Because you know, you just memorized verb tables, which is brilliant. If you want to, they come back and help you out. One day they do, everything has its place. But you know, okay.

Tanzim: 02:03:27 I remember like muzzle, I don't want to say it openly, but like, um, while back, like always interested in someone like let's say like a ceaser right? But what happened was that like what happened now is like she's married, right? Humbled.

Speaker 6: 02:03:40 Oh Wow. Oh No, no, sorry, I got to stick this in mind. Wow. Relationship Counseling. Here we go. Rather than the moment I'm at

Tanzim: 02:03:50 though, you know, you're like, ah, you know what's happening, this and that. And then, you know, I told my mom told 'em medwatch this and that. Did the relevant stuff. And in the moment you think like, ah, like feelings kind of ever take you just like, yeah, she's probably the perfect one, this and that. Right. But then somehow I remember like when you, you know, pray, you make door, and I could remember distinctly like you have like, uh, you, you're disappointed in the heart, this and that button. So I remember I woke up the next day, I was like the best I've felt in my whole life. I'm like, what just happened? You know what I mean? I'll just work off. But then afterwards he starts like a lot, when Allah doesn't plan for you and I, it's for the best of you. But then I start seeing like her in ways that are, I'm just like, this is not someone I want to marry like

Isaaq: 02:04:38 this overnight. He says, well, all right, and number like she's married. Um, you lucky man. You're lucky that Alaa gave you that. Exactly. So it's like for the best smile everyone, right? Yeah. I'm probably lucky, you know, very happy married, this and that. That's what I mean, like in the moment you think things. Yeah. But then it's different. It's different. Small already got a bit too personal, but I know people that are struggling like so I don't mind saying it, but that's, that's when you finally like, like, look, all of us, we gift ourselves, man. That's your contribution. True. A real contribution to how you've gifted that you've trusted me. You trusted Malik and you trust the people with the part of you. And that's beautiful. Honestly, it's so beautiful to see. Take off, take off. Like I'm just saying like to have trusts in a lot as things that you perceive bad few.

Isaaq: 02:05:29 Like I remember telling my mom like, why is this happening? Yeah. But then so I see like what was interesting was I was just thinking like, well what about those people who still think that she's good for them? Right. They never got that. That's difficult. That's a real issue to deal with that, you know, she, she was good for me. Why didn't it happen? Oh, I still think that, oh, a hasn't, like I've asked the law and I still think she's good for me, but why is I love doing that? Whatever. And, uh, and that's something to really, again, I just say to people, just sit with it, right? Like I, you know, I sit with myself and there's so many things that I like that might not necessarily be the exact same thing and it might be, and I might just be trying to defend myself, you know?

Malik: 02:06:07 Oh, then just to connect it to the 2.22 to connect it to your stories, to the whole workshop of knowing. So for me, I think it your position of pure tobacco and reliance of a last Hamilton and when you see yourself like with the quote that you share, quite often I've, I laid on the alarm line [inaudible] [inaudible] the one who knows himself, knows his laundry. So you see the perfect placement of everything that you know, you in the moment of difficulty or someone you're getting to know, you might think this is it, this is a person for myself. Then you pray that as stuck on a lot changes your heart and that feeling and it reminds me of that Eliza control, right? Like one day she's your world. The next day, you know, something else, a clue, the betrayal of an island. But there's a couple of stories I want to mention is one that city and Michael Superior was sharing with those with Aisha Gray Henry scene. He mentions a story I think in the book where she catching a flight and I think she um, she missed her flight. So then she had to go to another airport and she was racing against time because she had to catch that fly. She just made it right. And so if she was to miss that flight, the next flight, apparently I think it crashed. So we're saying she was literally running for her life catching that long. And I was watching a video the other on Facebook

Tanzim: 02:07:36 live, esis was mentioning about she got stuck in traffic, which usually there's no traffic on that road and for 20 minutes, like she was so agitated and she was with their kids dropping her kids off. Um, and then when she dropped off the kids, she was going to the water, I think to return some stuff or something. She was like, if I came 20 minutes earlier, there was a robbery in the, in the shop. All right. So when you have that pure to local, it just like lies in control. Like, you know, uh, that's what I lead you to personally. Yeah. And even any hardship that you face, the only way you can look at it is like with optimism and having the faith in the low. Like even like, well lies, reality. You know, the world around us, the material is not reality. Yeah.

Tanzim: 02:08:20 I think, um, you guys, uh, I forgot the theory code, but there's, um, I actually forget what I'm saying, but it's like that theory where they've started to find out things in the past. What you thought happened in the past was an actually occurring, I can't remember the theory, but it all kind of intertwines with the idea of just having faith in line. The material world question is how often do you, what's a coin going through a difficulty? And then two years back, you look back at that differently. I was like, that was the best thing that's ever happened in my life. Mm. All right. How often does that happen and you're able to then connect the dots of what our last panel to alcohol in store for you. Whether it's through your studies, whether it's you know, your family or marriage or whatever it may be.

Tanzim: 02:09:09 It's an interest like this stuff, proper placement. You just see our [inaudible] and everything. I said this in a previous podcast, but I've said this, a lot of my friends, I remember I was in high school, I was the knee a nine because I wasn't relatively practicing but humble. I'd like close some awesome friends so you know, would pray here and there and stuff. I remember my friend telling another friend and I was in there and I, he ended up telling, like kind of whispered it or mentioned a conversation where I was then I overheard, I remember it was like out of all of us, tandem is the one that would be the least practicing. I remember this like clearly, right? So he said this to his friend, right? Who should, who's my friend? And then I heard her, heard it. I remember, I'm like, damn, that's, that's heavy.

Tanzim: 02:09:48 This right. And so panel like that was in year nine. Right. Who would've have, I'd be making like a podcast about the dean, you know, and those, those friends are now like struggling with the dean. I'm like smell, like how a like just at that point in time you can make judgments but then Saponin like how has, you know, one of my favorite quotes, one of my favorite guys by [inaudible], it's like it's not how you start the ready to tell you finish it. So we can start off as I kid is a troublemaker. It's not seen as a religious time. But we will ask for [inaudible]. Yeah,

Isaaq: 02:10:24 yeah. Well I mean that's the thing like, because you know who here or who in this world can, can say that the didn't have a pass and who in that very moment still can say that yes you do. Shukor for like a blessing that blatantly in front of you, but you also do a top off

Isaaq: 02:10:42 that you call really respond accordingly,

Isaaq: 02:10:45 but you can't respond. How can you thank a lot for your blessings, man? Like what you just mentioned about where he put you to, because those are the guys like this. Certainly sort of lessons to learn from that because of the judgments. And then that may allow, puts them in, but you know, they're there. Then they end isn't, you know, they haven't finished this, their story is still going on. You know, everyone's got that um, thing. And I think that's why.

Isaaq: 02:11:05 And in all of that, um, there's just lessons to take, but it's essentially, it's, you know, the assignment is human in this world that you are the assignment.

Tanzim: 02:11:14 I know like people that went through, um, I know personally, like they went through a lot of struggles but they weren't practicing, but they went through such a struggle. Like, you know, the family in turmoil. I don't, um, situations happen where alarm put them in a place with, there had to go to the mosque and beg and make door to Allah and let to pray like all night. This is a guy that's not been practicing. So that's why I'm like at that someone might be looking at that situation saying, you know, he's got a mess up. Life is a nice found muse and going through a lot of struggles, but in a way some kind of like a lie. She like pushes you to be closer to him in that situation, out of that just to get you into the moss to get you making the offer to him, to connecting with him. So yeah,

Malik: 02:11:55 I think it comes back to also the perception like one of the [inaudible] that, that there are those who are on the path of gender until their hand span away from gender and then they become the people of hell. And then those who are the people of Hell and their hand spin away from hell and then they become the people of Gen. Right. So as you were saying, we might see people in different situation in their lives, but you know, they're probably Allan Agenda and I think as Muslims

Isaaq: 02:12:28 we walk around with made it. Yeah, I mean nothing, no guarantee.

Isaaq: 02:12:33 Uh, and that's why I like,

Isaaq: 02:12:35 you know, irrespective of which type of Muslim you are, you wake up in the morning, so you're a hundred [inaudible] or praises to God who gave me life part in them I'm at and after it caused me today or Elaine issue. And to him is the resurrection. Then before you go to CVC alarm or be smoker and moved to here, we're all saying the same thing Ma. How much of a practicing Mustang ask are these terms like practicing assault? I plastic practicing what says just people out there who don't wear hijab, which probably remember got far more than the guy with a beard and is doing a talk along the self. I feel like, you know, it's just us. And, and with that, there's this humbling that takes place. And you know, I think,

Isaaq: 02:13:10 ah, and I'm, you know, um, I've like a lot of, like, I've only had so much experience on this planet, but I'll tell you something that from what I've experienced, uh, it's just a humbling process. And if you don't humble yourself, you'd get humble man. Like in anything you think that I, yeah, I figured it out in home. [inaudible] straight under the carpet and all of a sudden you're like, what? What just happened and life and it's happening throughout the, the HEDIS and the Cananas all the point. There is so many instances, they're like, our prostitute goes to January. I, man, I could a hundred people goes to Jenna, stop judging me. But you know. Yeah. Right. And what on the other one in Middleton had, I remember the, the scholars days, it comes to God and he says, uh, law. Oh, a law I sought this knowledge for, you know, he didn't use all this knowledge that people could call you a scholar and they called you a scholar, you got what you wanted. The next one comes, oh, I'm a martyr. I did a monitoring yours in your way. It says no, you wanted to be called a mater. They called you a mater. But it wasn't in my way face off.

Isaaq: 02:14:19 And that's why there's that. The other we read, allow my nine year old we can we should you like our la I am. Oh, a lot. I seek refuge in you in the, in a [inaudible] and that on that I do shit with you or anonym like and that I know was stoked Felucca early Malala and I do a Toba for that, which I beat the shit that I've been doing that I'm not aware of. So I'm doing all the villa for the shit that I did because this happens, you know, it's easy. The hidden shirk is just, it's just a man like for a moment you think, yeah, I know and you just get put in your place. And that's, I'm even more fortunate and I do the, you know, try to do that sugar that cause this type of a project. Like I said, I'm just another subject in the class like I'm doing again, the bookshop again.

Isaaq: 02:15:10 I've had one of my friends came to the work workshop five times. People have come to it two times. I myself did it when I did do my teacher three times as it is anyone who comes to it just a second time. You come in, one of my friends came five times and he said, he said, I see these people responding at the end saying, oh, it's amazing workshop. I just feel like, oh, I know all this stuff. And he said, and I've done it five times and I'm gaining so much. I'm looking at them thinking, you haven't got a clue. You're just starting out. Do it. Won't do it under the two times. Watch what happens. Yeah. That's why I actually teach it now. First Time I did it I though, hmm. The second time I was like, whoa. And then every time I would read about it I was like, oh, that's me. That's me. That's me. That's me and I can need to sort this out. And he saw that that's wrong. So yeah, man, it's so vast.

Tanzim: 02:15:55 So much. Yeah. That was not as heavy. Like a thing, like even the idea of like intention, like all those examples you brought up, you know, people becoming scholars for the people and they go Johanne numb. It's like, it's like a lot. All he looks at is like the intention. And even like with the example I gave with I showed the on who they were scooping from the bottom of the pot, like it's an all intention kind of. That's all that a lot. Not like everything that kind of manifests on the physical or material. It's like it comes down to the metaphysical intention, which is like embedded into you like consciousness and what's the diff

Isaaq: 02:16:30 in the law. Lions or [inaudible] a lot doesn't look at your, your forms, your images. There was Instagram [inaudible] your, your almost like your Nan's right. It doesn't look at who you are and height like in that sense, uh, he says, uh, well I can [inaudible] rather he looks at your heart and your actions benefit your verbs.

Tanzim: 02:16:58 What are you actually doing? Even how you doing that intention? Like you said, it was that lady that prayed all all night then was, um, bat and bad to the neighbors and stuff in Russell's or some say that she's going Jahannam like even, you know, that's an example of just Mr Acne, our intention I guess. And the end of the day a largest looks at you and this kind of fits in with the four temperaments, everything. It's like you as a [inaudible] on a metaphysical level swallow.

Malik: 02:17:27 Well even if anything you're going to take away from this. And I think probably starting with our teachers, uh, when we did the Outbrain of Mammo with, um, shake hands and I'm just gonna reiterate your point about intentions and I'm only Min Nia, right? That all actions are based on their intentions and Chuck Hums, his commentary on that was essentially all we have control of is our intentions. That's it. The outcome. I liked controls, right.

Isaaq: 02:17:58 Hi, this is incredible. Yeah, because that's, that's real man. That's really that it has really, I'll give you intent boys in the cave at this podcast to change the world than a normal key Yammer. You will get to gift that and that will be gifted to you, bro. And you'll turn to the at and say, I did this for your legacy. [inaudible] anyone, bro. Anyways, [inaudible] beautiful Edina is, and like how to compete. We made this thing only one. How can people make this exclusive?

Tanzim: 02:18:30 I'll like just you brought up boys in the k I remember when we started off like this brings me like those memories like starting off, you're like, it was just a thought. You've got some brothers and like all right let's make it happen. I remember like, cause at that time we weren't too familiar with the podcast format but we know that was like the best way to go about the stuff we wanted to talk about. So we'll like look end of the day even if, cause we didn't know if our marketing would be good enough to get anyone to kind of listen cause every we thought yeah everyone's onto youtube and all that. And I'm like even if we get five people, 10 people, I reckon at least the contents out there and that's like shall we get rewarded for the intention. And I remember like with that sincerity, I remember humbly law first, first guess was like Mohammad Golan, Dr Mangala and some hotline.

Tanzim: 02:19:14 A lot opens doors you can never ever like, like we never, cause I remember like at that time we were getting started at Dr Maga Nelson in Canada and he was like, he really influenced me and he also like inspired me to do this as well. Right. So then I remember like we had this idea of doing boys in the cave. It was like already three, four months in, I see a video of Dr Golan saying, Oh, I'm going to Queensland to study medicine. I'm like, Whoa, Whoa, what's going on? And, and yet he ended up going and then I remember, I'm like, okay, it's still, you know, difficulty is in Queensland and if he can get him on. And I, my friend who was in the MSA, he was the president and he's like, oh, I bumped into him to eat. I'm on eith prayer out of all days upon law.

Tanzim: 02:19:55 I remember after the prayer, I, um, he just told me, Oh, we're bringing Dr Yolanda. And I'm like, Whoa, so panel serious. And I remember I was like, do you want to message him? Cause I want to, um, you want him on the podcast? I'm like yeah. And I sent a voicemail, a voice message to his and then he agreed. Can you believe that? Like I know people think like, oh it just happened but from someone from Canada who she never thought would come to your doorstep or whatever to like allow opens doors in in ways. And then from then on, you know like humbler with be able to engage with the right people, get contacts even like you'd think like one guest or is just to get some of the, we had a good conversation but he just opened doors to guests that we yearn to have a conversation like, like my like and then it will still handle the growing exponentially and we've got even bigger, better plans. But sometimes you forget the best blessings I gave you the journey. It kind of like I mentioned like the stats thing, like sometimes get caught up with what the need is. Like what a support. Like what a journey it gets been and it's proof of a love.

Tanzim: 02:21:00 Yes. Long having never like a fathom having these sort of conversations as well. And other days we had deep with my friends like Josh Raphael, um, and others who were part of this. Initially we just had conversations roll about Dean and we knew that we had all, we had the hoc like we had the truth, all these science nonsense that like I don't want to, I mean like scientists and scientists, not sad like the perspective of looking things [inaudible] like this. This does not make any sense. Right? But when you studied in depth the spiritual side of things as well, you just like this is this needs to be talked about more and I felt that there were too too much. I don't know, sectarianism on Muslim podcast platforms and just in platforms in general. I'm like, we just need everyone. Doesn't matter about outlets to know obviously, but like skeleton and have these sort of conversations and us facilitate our, I was telling you at the beginning of this episode, we use like one Yeti mark for four or five people [inaudible] you had just stuck this one Mike and then now like allows like open doors, you know, we're just uni students trying to get by.

Tanzim: 02:22:10 But smart woman and

Isaaq: 02:22:14 staying busy just stay busy. Like what did the mom Shafi say? And also it's reflected in the rest and tradition as well that, you know, the devil makes work for idle hands and then he says, you know, the one who doesn't busy himself with good,

Isaaq: 02:22:26 he'll be made busy with bad. So just staying in good bro. Like honestly cause l the nature of even being, we are active beings. We're not, we're not passive beings man. And like sometimes we fall into being passive. But if you, if you have that energy in you, you're an active person and a half weeks off, you know, you'd be running workshops going on broad like that's why I go for like, that's why I do a lot of things. One of the reasons why is because I just know I, you know, I have the energy and part of it is also like a type of a gratitude for that energy. You know, saying a lot. All right, you've given me this energy, you're giving me life, you're giving me a day, what am I going to do with that day? What can I do for you? And then he, then he shows you in the day what he wants.

Isaaq: 02:23:07 We wake up in the morning and Malik says, you've got a podcast to do and you're like, all right, ally wants me to do a podcast. Like he people with will have said to me like do a podcast or do stuff. Like even on radio they offered radio stations and, but when a law wants you to be on it, you'll be on it. And if it be, if it's in Australia, it's in Australia, you know? But the beauty in this whole process is just, it's um, you know, it's, it's just a, it's just a, it's just a beautiful break. It's just reminding though that I Salaam and you know, and Alaska is that a few of my slaves are, are thankful and orderly. Synopsys how can I thank you in La when even my ability to thank you is from you somehow. And then the last phase now though, that is gratitude.

Isaaq: 02:23:56 So Parnell law, so there comes a point when it goes through with a lot of oil. You can just say in Zari or you can just say for a lot it to a law is just what praise him in the way he, he's been, we've been shown to praise him is you just got in those moments, there's a lot of [inaudible] or [inaudible], you know, some Ohana like these, just these terms as need to think about it so hard. A lot like glory be you. Hallelujah. Glory be to a lot while Hamdulillah and all praise. Any in a big of anyone. You're going to praise anyone on Hamdullah. It's his, it's his, not just it goes to him. It's his humble as hello and hello la Ilaha Illallah and there's nothing worthy of worship. There's nothing worthy of our time. There's nothing worthy of our priority except God or law.

Isaaq: 02:24:57 And he is better than all of it. And even a lot of open is an interesting one because Joe, generally the, the isn't tough deal Akbar in generally in an Arabic, it's like you, you, you have something after [inaudible] from what? Bigger than what agile. The most beautiful, most beautiful from what I, one of our teachers said, didn't even Jordan, he goes backward when we say [inaudible] that what's understood by that is he's, he is greater than dot, dot, dot. And that data is whatever you're thinking of, anything you can ever think of, you just got a lot of awkward because you can't lick, you know, just anything that you think of, just a love of her.

Speaker 6: 02:25:36 And, um, oh, when thoughts are racing your mind when you're praying, right? Yeah. Whatever, you know, drinking of our prayer. You just say [inaudible] allows greater than that. But also I was thinking the whole chain, sorry about like the whole thing changes man. Like it really does. It becomes a beautiful

Isaaq: 02:25:54 love affair with, with God, your whole life becomes a love affair. It's a beautiful conversation going on. And I will remember reading like, you know, in Salon, like we read some Hanukkah La Houma or be handica like he saying, you know, glory be to you allow, be handicap. I'm like to praise this to your, you know, your praise. And then the second one here, what about a customer go out? We saw this is an interesting, what does that mean? Or to our customer [inaudible] I mean, what about it? Like what and how blessing to biotic is smoker. Is your name animals like you're in love. What's the most sweetest thing to you about the one you love? Is there name Harriman a hearing the name of saying it. It's beautiful, isn't it? They'll say your mom's name is just a view of a name and the rest of all of us favorite names. So when you're saying so han, it's just a lovely, I like you, don't you just, you know, it's one of those, I love the, it's like, Oh and you're, you know, your name is also this. And also that, you know, someone's name is mentioned like my move in school and her name's mentioned and your face goes red

Speaker 6: 02:26:59 do happen to you bro. Nah, nothing bro. But he, you know, was going out cause I was in the navy. Right.

Isaaq: 02:27:06 And as I say, it's like some Hanukkah la homo will be handicap. What about cus I have beautiful [inaudible] it's like, oh it's just an yeah, I hate talking about us. I don't even podcast because you know what, half of cs your words are the house you build for yourself to live in. So, you know, we say these things as if we've experienced them to its entirety. But you know, even having said all of that

Speaker 6: 02:27:33 loser, so we've hit the two hour, 30 minute, I think it's probably a little bit longer. Yeah, he flies vice, I'm serious. Two hours, 30 minutes. [inaudible] tuning into this one. [inaudible] stay on from over. You'll be surprised. A lot of listeners like proper podcasts, they love like big episode downloads have been the big episodes on. So cause it's like you're being more authentic and put it down. Then before I want to ask you the, uh, one question before you start to be anywhere. Not all right. So I want to ask you one though. One question. Um, actually too, so

Tanzim: 02:28:22 you guys mentioned a lot of people that you've been taught by your teachers in a share comms or you surf and many others. You guys, did you guys study together like the same?

Speaker 6: 02:28:35 I studied with him under him

Tanzim: 02:28:46 being in the same circles. They use his Mike as well. He says Mike.

Speaker 6: 02:28:51 Okay.

Tanzim: 02:28:55 Yeah. But yeah, like you have any sudden experience

Speaker 6: 02:29:02 that was coming. Sorry, sorry.

Tanzim: 02:29:06 Is he going to start at mine? But you mentioned some big names on I think maybe doctor [inaudible] in the shake, Hamza in regular program and all that. But you've started to under some big names. So what's your kind of experiences, you know, cause a lot of people would have listeners been watching, you know, or listening to talks of your teachers as well. So

Malik: 02:29:28 spinner, although they all took from it like a, as an Australian living here in Sydney, I think a lot of the times, you know, you kind of see these teachers only through Youtube, um, and they're so far away in some ways, you know, we don't have access that ease of access like the Americans and some of my brothers in the UK too. And so for us it's essentially we have to go seek them out. Um, and how did I like the, the regular programs are very accessible. Um, but even before I went to [inaudible], I did the a nominal program. We show homes in 2014 and that's open to everyone. Um, and then studying in Jordan as well. Muhammad, uh, went to the rally before me and he got me on [inaudible] the year after, um, two years after 2016, 2016. Yeah. Um, and I didn't get him on them and alone to John my show.

Malik: 02:30:32 I'm sorry, what was the question? It's like your experiences, um, with the big O and teachers. Honestly, one of the things I've realized from this whole entire experience with BCG, it's incredible to sit under the feet of shuck hums or, and mom's aid and then she'll come back and what I talked to him where they're incredible human beings, people who are not only articulating for us an experience, but they've lived that, right? And so when they do articulate it, it feels so real. Like, you know, this is what I'm experiencing and giving us a depth and explaining the tradition to us and a packaging in a way that is so accessible to us. Right. Um, and which is why I've always enjoyed listening to the chicken. Um, but one of the things that you do learn if you want to get to that level, and I guarantee you Mohammed would agree with this, is that your, you can, you can't maintain, you know, all grow as a person if you just seek after these big shoe, they have plenty of shoe that we know, we don't know.

Malik: 02:31:41 Right. They know names. Right? And so studying with them, you know, you realize you have to go seek like, just like just through Amazon for example, you know, we've opened up the doors to our local teachers and we have some incredible local teachers, you know, check with hasten for our to check [inaudible], you know, check Hassan, all sorts of, hey, like the list goes on. They're absolutely incredible human beings that have done the time show, haven't spent 10 years in Teddy. Right. And they're coming from different traditions as well in terms of where they studied cheque Huston study, the Lazard check, we saw, um, um, [inaudible], you know, um, along style and check, hey, summer teddy, et cetera. And we have these incredible human beings amongst us, right? Yet we're looking outside, um, you know, our communities. And so we have to exhaust and use our power teachers here locally.

Malik: 02:32:40 And I think that's one of the things that they taught me, right? I was seeking out by, they told me to seek within like seeker teachers, he locally, um, which is sort of [inaudible], which is why they are so incredible. They don't call to themselves, you know, they're any teacher's role essentially is to hold your hand into place. You right in front of a law, in little science stuff. That's the journey. Like we spend time with, I, you know, we, when we in Jordan, we have [inaudible] and the first time meeting and he's just an incredible human being swell and just standing there and like, you know, when people take on the tody club for example, you don't see him calling to himself. You never hear any of the, your brother's saying, you know, come join out of your car. You just observe people like have you Walmart, you have to other people like having, you called them, right? And you're like, that's the kind of people I want to be. And so whole thing about modeling yourself against these inheritors of the profits of a law, they were some, all right. And so if you're someone here living in till we have those inheritance, how the process I'm here locally. Um, yeah. So I mean, that's been my experience on that to what I've learned, uh, just being out and about and traveling in. You know, meeting some of these teachers and handler alone,

Tanzim: 02:33:58 even, um, you, you mentioned like just the, in your interaction with them and them helping you on the journey to follow the way of Russell or saw some, I remember like I was really contemplating this, that you, you know, you have scientists, you have philosophies, et Cetera, et cetera. And you know, through Uni I've been engaging, had the opportunity to meet these kinds of people. But you just like, I don't know, like why do I want to be these people just makes like they, Ooh, something that's doesn't feel right on a spiritual level. And then when you're at, like I'm some in class for example, you can sit with a scholar who's passionate and he, um, exemplifies perfect character. You're just like this, this is where the heart should be. And this is not just as a Muslim, like everyone who is sincere, regardless of faith should be sitting in this. And really it's about connecting with yourself and kind of goes back to everything with, you know, the four temperaments,

Malik: 02:34:55 like my personal experience and coming on the path was just looking at one person's face. And that did everything for me. Heard him dislike gazing and his faith. Like I know this is going to sound very kind of airy fairy, but this man, like I looked at him like, who is this man? Like he spoke Arabic and at that time my Arabic words like horrible. And I was looking at him like, who is this man? He came here to Sydney, right? And I was at a moment in my life where I was like kind of trying to find my place and my written like trying to strengthen my connection with the last panel. And Tyler and I, this man comes across and I'm like, this year this is a complete human being. Like, you know, when we think about the ears or the prophet, like I literally saw that and then kind of led me on to kind of, you know, research more.

Malik: 02:35:46 Um, but I think we are all looking for that. We all are looking for that depth. We are looking for, you know, a strong relationship and connection with the last [inaudible] right. And these men just all in women come along in our lives and you know, just hold their hand and you know, just make the path easy for us. Um, and that's, that's something that I, that I observed with, with a lot of people. And I think one of the other things is sometimes you have experiences that makes you, forces you to be real and even forces you to reflect on your own existence with a lot. And you know, saying what is, you know, we all here like what's the purpose of life? You know, Claudia sin came back, was he, back in the days you had those famous talks on the purpose of life, you know, sometimes it's just sound like these plastic phrases or words, but when you really reflect on, a lot of times that happens when you have a new death experience or you've had a person close to you that's passed away and you're like, man, I'm going there.

Malik: 02:36:47 Yeah. And so you're forced to like, what, what am I doing? Like everything in this world, these, you know, finite, like I'm gonna learn that I'm going to go back to my mega, how do I want to go back to my maker? How can I go back to moment? You know, what's the path? How do I get closer to a lot? You know, because we're all going to be asked those questions in a grow. Who is your Lord? Who's your prophet? And what's the, what's your wall? And for the moment it's, it's an easy answer because you live that, right? And so when you are forced to be real with yourself and I, this is why I'm life. You haven't had that need that they experience humbler but we also have that for a lot of people that fill that void. Um, and they just want, they want to fill that void. And a lot of times what's missing is a lie is profit. And when you have that, like I'm not saying I have it, I'm working towards, it's a work in progress, but humble, I like these, these people, uh, locally and internationally are the inheritors or the profit and their role is essentially to make our path easier.

Isaaq: 02:37:58 Oh, hello cds, Hawk oil. What's your kind of experience? Wow, we'll need to do that. Several podcasts on that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I mean, I know your questions about what's the experience, but honestly I feel like you can't ever really sum up the experience. I think, uh, I actually prefer to just stay cider on that. And if anyone takes anything from that, then that you'll take far more from my silence on it. Then my speech on it. And what I would like to share with people is what was something that struck me once upon a time. I think I took more from that. Um, I think anyone will take more from that is this, there's a, there's a situation that once happened where there was the province or someone was doing twofer on the Kaaba and this man came with the intention to kill the prophecy.

Isaaq: 02:38:47 Alyssa, so for la. Yeah, and he had a hair like a tiger or something. And uh, as you came behind the profits, a lot of sort of the pros or some turned around put his hand on his chest and he said also, and so what is that you were going to be doing there? That man, he dropped it and he said, I don't know. And he just became a Muslim and he left that place with the intention to kill the prophets also. So for a lot. And he left that moment as a tablet. Take that in for a moment. I'm sorry. As a Sahabi sorry. A phone as a hobby. He left. His belief at that point was more than all of the, all of our beliefs put together. That's how strong his belief was a man. What was his interaction? He had a moment whether a salsa, asylum gazed upon him and placed his hand upon his heart that changed his life. Man, that changed it. That changed his and bro, it was like more than any of us, just from one experience where there's the evil eye, there's the good eye, the healing gays, the gays that raises men from being the normal men to being the best of men. And you know that gays were so powerful that anyone who then that gays then fall upon from the person who saw that became a taboo.

Isaaq: 02:40:14 And then the one who saw them became to a TBA topic, who's gaze from the top. If the gays fall upon another person, that became the TBA Tabi. So you have a generation of people that all of a sudden now being called the best of of people, the past of generations, all because of what the saw awesome gays fall upon them. So my question, once upon a time really asked myself and I solve us, leave it with those who are listening. And again, to myself, really? Uh, all these years later is where, where's that gaze? How can I get today?

Isaaq: 02:40:51 Where can I get that? Cause I need it, man. I need it Bro. Like that's what it was. I left, I didn't go out to like seek knowledge. I went out to fix my heart. I'm still trying to fix it but, and but what happened in the process was a lot happened in that time. So he was 80. What did you gain as a, I ain't got a clue what, I can't really tell you why again, but I'll tell you what I lost though. I let what was replaced and uh, when you go and you realize that that law tells us that these, the scholars are the inheritors of the profits and the Olia are the men of God. And you know, there was another Heidi thought also leave you leave the listeners with this is that you know, a person is on there faith of his companion.

Isaaq: 02:41:28 So the of some says, let each of you look at who you take as a friend. And I thought to myself, if I want to be from the friends of God, the quickest way to get these become friends with them because you are on the faith of your friend. You want the dean of your friends. If you can become friends with the friends of God, you'll just make it way easier. So with these two, I, that's when I stepped down and I just decided that I'm done with these youtube. Like I just want to go and sit with them once, just need, I just need the gaze once. I just need one. Just one gaze is all the takes. Right. And that's all you need man. And uh, and we went out with that and uh, and the rest is, you know, the rest is funny because then people say Yoni unf cause or their names, their names are made because of the teacher's names.

Isaaq: 02:42:19 Their teachers are names and everyone's made name is being made of because of the Russell sauce on them and all of a sudden your name and people saw say, oh yeah, and the podcast and the whole this hog on it. Like every time, every time I ever hear that, I'm like, what is going on? But I just like, you know, just kick it out. Don't dwell on it because otherwise it just gives me anxiety. Whenever we get one of our teachers into the way, he just said, he goes, get over yourself. It's not about you. It's never about you. So you just, it's easier to just let go of it. Just get over it. Fixed what yourself, what you need to fix. But point being is, is look what happens man. It's transformative. That's what this dean is. This dean is transformative. I remember once one of our teachers said, he goes, Muslims today I just sitting are people like seeing our restaurant and they've got all this fantastic menu is called Islam them. They'll be the, the restaurants called Islam and there's all these wonderful dishes. Everyone's like, oh wow, check out our menu. Look, we've got this, we've got that, we've got this, we've got that. And then not eating a single thing. So whoa, just inheriting the whole

Isaaq: 02:43:12 thing. And even you're in inheritance, you end, they didn't inherit really. You don't know anything else. When people say to me, you know, I always say like at 21 I became Muslim. Oh, well, you know, said before I was like I was, I was Muslim before, but did you ever do a Shahada and then your Shahada in a Shahada? If I say, did you ever do Shahada is, did you ever witness, did you ever testify, did a day come in your life? You said, I bear witness that there is no god except the one true God. Did you ever say that? If you didn't say that and then I used to see these guys in the UK is the last one I'll share. I see these guys in the UK and they used to have this crazy love for their teachers. I used to look at the, I say, Oh my God, these guys just too much man, a lot. This was all like, what's all this, this crazy love for your teachers? And then I just made and I made the, and I honestly, if anyone wants to knowledge, make this Dodgers turn to a lot and just say a law, what's all, what's all that? What's a lot about? What's, what's he talking about? There's another, this one gaze that you get. Does this still exist? And can I get it? Have that conversation sincerely. Can I get that? How do I get it?

Speaker 7: 02:44:18 Okay,

Isaaq: 02:44:18 when you start that conversation and a year later

Isaaq: 02:44:23 I was like one of those guys and one day I woke up and I was like, oh my gosh, like I ordered the same glasses as one as my teacher. One of my teachers are interesting in the post. I opened it up and I was there putting it on and I was like, oh the young kid. I was like looking at myself and then I realized, oh my gosh, I fall into the trap. Same as these guys. So I put it back in the package that I sent it back off. I didn't want that because you've got to stay on the Goldman. But in the process I realized something had happened, the transformation that taken place and, and I can't ask that. I hate the claims. Like I hate saying, oh transformation taking place. Cause then you know you have to live by that. So you know, really.

Isaaq: 02:45:01 Um, so that's why I didn't want to say like, oh, what was the experience like? Um, you know, and we can speak. Like I said, I didn't really do a podcast on it, man. I'll give you like gems of stories, man. They just go on and on. There's really just, the video alone is just crazy. But I'll say to you this man, if you really want to know what any of that is about and what it's like to be with those people. Like when I was in the, when I was in Morocco and there was a sister that I knew from the UK and she was like, she used to do charity work years ago and she phoned me and she was like, you suck. You know, I heard about this sorta program. She said, but people are telling me, it's the Sufi saying, don't go on it.

Isaaq: 02:45:34 And she's a, and she said that, but I want to know what you think, you know. And I said, uh, I said to her, look, I'm just going to tell you like I will, I'll tell you about my experience. But that was my experience alone. That might not be your experience. I said, the only way you can do anything about it is go for yourself. If this, if the deviant sue is, you know, come back one others. But if what they're saying is true, if what is available to experience in this ultima Felicity's there and whatever, right in the Sabar of the, the great men of God whose presence is just their presence. Just a is is Matt is a vicar. I just being in their presence of the vicar, right. Transformative. Just to be in their presence. Like when it was, when uh, when she comes, the ones who are sitting in the presence of [inaudible], it'll hodge and she comes, I said, I was sitting there sitting there and I'm thinking, it's like he said, I fought a piece, the piece of which I had only ever fought in Medina at the Rhoda.

Isaaq: 02:46:36 He said. So I looked around and there was this young man who was sitting next to me. Yeah, he Yahya Rhodus, you may have heard of him. Yeah. Back here is he said back in the day and he said, I looked over to see if Yahoo was feeding the same thing. So I looked over and at that point you're here, opened his eyes and looked at me and we realized we're both feeding it on wild law. Like my thing is is if that's all true and all these things like check comes the once that I was by the head of multiple hodge and I could smell mosque from his here and this is he living in the desert. You can smell musk off his head. If you're listening right now, go test it. Oh Morocco has is gone now. But you know, find the equivalence, right hammer who these people like if this is all true and what people are claiming and if like [inaudible] who came and transformed the world, why your life?

Isaaq: 02:47:20 Why is your life now getting transformed? Like why, where, what's what's, what's different here? What are you doing differently? I've we want to find ODR as well, especially when people want to find the man of God. Honestly, people don't even respect the willies at home. The called mom and dad. If you don't treat though, if you're kissing your mom's hand, hello, how are you doing? Is like these other shakes, hand your priorities all over the place. Do you want to rest? And that's why the law says that in Chakota Umlazi they're not come. If you're thankful, I'll give you an increase. If you're grateful, I'll increase you. Show your gratitude where you are. Right. But then I also remember this one teacher said to us, I don't know, I said the last thing was like six. There's one teacher in 23 she said, he goes, you had the dean is like an ocean because there's some people who go there and they just touched by somebody show up, put the fee inside it, and then they go and like, oh that experience Islam.

Isaaq: 02:48:10 There's other ones, there's others. We're just observing it from far saying wow, wonderful Islam. Right. Had a passive to the whole thing and then there's other, that day we're going a little bit more and they're coming back with a few things. Then there's some of them who are just running in diving straight into the thing. And the more deeper you go, the modules you get. Well, so, and I remember hearing that I can I get a, can I go and you just go. And, and I, like I said, it's not a bad though. Like if people see, you know, no here Muhammad is hardly, what are you doing? Like forget that. Don't, I haven't listened to that and I'm, maybe I'm saying it to myself, like move the ones just go out to seek the messenger of God. I lost that. They have the inheritances with the, the scholars go sit with the scholars, say a lot, show me the inheritance when you go there.

Isaaq: 02:49:02 But people don't like, they don't have this, uh, active approach to like, you know, the don't believe in it. When one [inaudible] I think it was his, his uncle back in like, I don't know what in the early like off maybe 60, 70 years ago, he was in some place and um, in, in, and there was this convoy of French soldiers going by and he said he's, and you remember this [inaudible] the saying, I believe he said either never do 40 people come together except that from them is a personal God, a volleys from them. Never do people come together except there's a Willie amongst them. So he said to her laugh, he said, Allah, if there's a Willie, there's more than 40 people here. So wherever the bully is, show me, show me. He said as the convoy was coming across, there was a man from, from, from Africa who was a part of the convoy.

Isaaq: 02:49:47 He just came off it. He got off the couch, convoy. He walked up to him and he said, there is one amongst them. He went back and if you've ever taken the journey at these stories, the first time I heard it I was like, did you hear that? But when you take, you started taking the journey out, it's like you have that smarter you and he has and just read signs on the horizon. If you want to know what a music takes you to sit with, the man of God is a book or a size on the horizon. Uh, and uh, it's because these, these men are the meeting places that we call. They call them the signs on the horizon because they're the meeting place of the heavens and the earth. They're just like you and me. Yet there is so heavenly has that.

Isaaq: 02:50:26 I mean there's horizon, right? The meeting place of the heavens and the earth. So they just earthy like us, but they have only as well. But again, my, my thing is just try it, go out and try but sincerely, if you're there to test off to proofs, whatever, prove a hypothesis that because you're like, oh, these guys, you know, they probably aren't what they really are. Then whatever, man, you know that there is what it is, it's for you, what you think of it. And it's what you were speaking about earlier on. And this isn't an alien concept to Islam. A law says I have an opinion and my slaves, what you bring to the table is what you bring to the core few. Bring to the core of a lie is Rama shall ask what I'm riding on anyway. But um, uh, but, but yeah, it's a, so if you believe in these people and you, you when they actually say that, you know, to see and then so again, to go into the specifics, I can give you all these stories about the teachers, that one my whole, but there's teachers out there who are, who are, you know, who are your is like Rumi could speak of that solely everybody else's [inaudible] people probably that ran it right now listening who shoves.

Isaaq: 02:51:24 My point is is I, you know, do our roomy did like really start that journey with your and allow, we'll give you those people, those people only comments. You start to like react accordingly to your situation, to your environment. If you're happy with what you're doing, then why is he going to change it up? If you're happy in your life of chasing after two cars. I see. And it's just so a post on Instagram today, a story of someone is a picture of two cars and a house as like, you know, life goals. Sure. Life goal in this world. This, this spirit that you have inside you in this body being to just secure a house and two cars, swallow. Sit with that.

Speaker 6: 02:52:06 Sit with your stories on Insta, loves giving you all this. And you know, it's just one person. This is everything. He's two cars, right?

Isaaq: 02:52:19 And that's why I am, I lead with, Ilana says this. Dystonia is five things. It's what you eat, what you drink, what you wear, you experience. And uh, what you, what you smile. He says, as for what you drink. He said, this Dunia the best thing to drink in this, in this world. [inaudible] Donia is water and it's free.

Speaker 6: 02:52:40 He shared it with animals. He's just the best thing that you can waste. Silk.

Isaaq: 02:52:45 And that's why it comes out the other end of a word. It says, the best thing that you can eat is honey. And that's the vomit of bees.

Speaker 6: 02:52:57 [inaudible] the best thing that you,

Isaaq: 02:52:59 a perfume yourself with his Musk. And that's the, the, the, uh, the swaying of a Ghazal or the mucus of a Ghazal or it's, it's even the, from, it's actually from the testicles of a cat. There's a good, there's a good sense that come from the, don't ask me how I know

Speaker 6: 02:53:15 I didn't, that's not what these pick books is. This word I, and then we find out it was cat testicles.

Isaaq: 02:53:23 He goes, the last one is A's and a, and from the experiences, it's the meeting is the meeting of the places where you urinate from.

Isaaq: 02:53:35 That's the most exciting. The best experience here is such a lonely look. Uh, look, uh, lost. Put this lowly nature into the Dunia and then the Dunia itself comes done out from Danai and the classical Arabic, it means to reach out for a grape that you can't actually get. So the Dunia, so this is like, you're trying to get stuff and it's escaping you and you're thirsty. Were you drinking coke? And so then you're feeling thirsty at the end. You're hungry and eat his burger and then you're feeling hungry at the end, like two hours later you have white bread and like within an hour you're hungry again because there's absolutely no nutrients in it. So I really like, whoa.

Speaker 6: 02:54:13 I think what is that to that? Like what if, um, we sort of make is not good enough. Like end of the day, we can't replicate something that's 100%. It's so weird, right? Like as humans, I've all this technology, but yeah, we'll always be low, you know what I mean? And whatever we want, what are yeah, which is like needed as humans is, is there free? Yeah. Yeah. But all these things

Isaaq: 02:54:33 start with real conversations. Like, yeah, that's all fantastic, but what am I actually seeking in this world though? Like what is my equivalent of, uh, the house and the two calls really? Like that's where alchemy starts to take place again for me now I turn around and say, what do I want? What am I after? Right? And when you start that conversation, you really start taking something and your existence starts to move to some degree.

Speaker 6: 02:54:56 I'll add two things. So those are please do just in terms of their two cars and the, um, the shake

Malik: 02:55:04 Hassan always reminds us, you know, those things that you're after, the luxury vehicles and the houses and stuff, you know, just imagine about a car that you bought a few years back, somebody else's driving it now. And when you get the ultimate car that you want somebody else who's going to be driving that as well, somebody else is going to be wearing the clothes that you're wearing. Somebody else is going to be living in the room that you'll be living in, right? So you're like, is that when you're, what you're really after, right? And so, and with water colon, um, [inaudible] talks about, you know, happiness and the four types of happiness, all right? He calls the cattle type, which is essentially those who just drink, eat and socialize and find happiness. Just through that, then he sees the, the lineups which finds happiness through essentially being praised. You know, you've done a good work. So when they are praise, that's literally, they're experiencing ultimate happiness at that point. And then he's like, there's the shaped loneliness or the devil lightness that experience has happened is when he's plotting, planning and deceiving others. And he's really like literally, he's experiencing the ultimate happiness then as well. And then he goes off final enough that we should all aspire to is the angelic minus that receives happiness through the worship of a life in front of the sun on the processor.

Tanzim: 02:56:36 All right. Um, last question just to wrap things up. Cause we actually do ask this question to all the, I guess at the end, um, you just give me short answers, but, um, if you had to pick three people to his, um, in history who you can chill with in a cave because boys, yeah. Who would you choose and bite? You can't pick 'em [inaudible] because everyone's gonna. Yeah,

Isaaq: 02:56:59 yeah, yeah, yeah. Good one. Probably think about it, but, um,

Malik: 02:57:06 who answering the next podcast? Yeah, it's, we're thinking, but I mean, I'd certainly put, um,

Isaaq: 02:57:13 yeah, so many of them on,

Tanzim: 02:57:16 yeah. It's always the hardest question. Surprising. Everyone gets stumped. I to edit some, um, guests we had, he went for like five minutes this thing.

Malik: 02:57:24 Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So just like, I mean if I, if I think about it,

Isaaq: 02:57:30 I thought about straight away or at least some of the top contenders are maybe just for the sake of time I'll just settle with them. Really. I could just spend ages on this question I thinking about it, but just for the sake of time I'd say, you know, um, okay. I mean I have,

Malik: 02:57:48 don't worry, take your time. You're like Molana Rumi would have to be like, I just want to just love to, I just want to see what it looks like

Isaaq: 02:57:57 just to see one, how he did it. Um,

Tanzim: 02:58:03 me and Malik will have a conversation now. See, give Sidi Isaaq sometime you're the guest. Somebody goes, oh, oh yeah. Rumy's first one. Yeah. Two more. That was someone that influenced you personally? Like a teacher or something. Can I be current or current as well? Yeah. Anyone.

Isaaq: 02:58:25 Oh, okay. Sorry, I was going to the in it then. It's definitely that. Yeah. Malcolm x, the shit comes up. I'll be like, cause they just teach me so much in that time. But, um, no, I'd have to, I'd have shea comes out with me. Yeah. 100%. Uh, but there's so many to choose from. Geez, that's quite, but yeah. And then someone like a,

Tanzim: 02:58:47 but you already picked to check homes a Malcolm X. Yeah.

Isaaq: 02:58:51 That's it with that then I'm in this last August. [inaudible] imagine her, she'd just be, you know, amazing, jaded bug daddy would be just something so incredible to sit with. Um, you know, I'd probably even sit with Paracelsus the 16th century, you know, philosopher, and he was just, just, some of it's really like, some of the stuff that he said was just so interesting. I'd love to just absorb what he would say. Oh my mom. Ghazaliya [inaudible] there's so many old yard. I gotta call the Jude on the, you know, just to sit with him. I just sit like in his presence and just see what comes about. Um, well, but you know, I didn't want to just, you know, this, this is so many man, you know?

Tanzim: 02:59:27 Yeah. It's a lot of in Charlotte in general,

Isaaq: 02:59:30 but in yeah. You know, probably a lot bigger. Yeah. But you want to plate or that would be so cool because he's just an interesting, interesting guy.

Tanzim: 02:59:40 Monotheist but a very interesting monotheist yeah,

Isaaq: 02:59:44 it's interesting. But then there's a, then there's loads of them and you start thinking about them. And then this is a, there's a whole bunch from Benny mean for the sake of time.

Tanzim: 02:59:53 Just random names and a little love. But this episode's been amazing. Like I know we were more discussing about the full 10 prints at the beginning by kind of segwayed into like spirituality and materialism and um, the material world. I think it's, it's, I think as a whole, I don't know how to sum it up by, it was more so dealing with ourselves and knowing what's true and what's reality and knowing ourselves and that connection with our lives where, so it's kind of the full timers kind of manifest in different aspects in different ways.

Isaaq: 03:00:25 Yeah. i mean, the four temperaments are just a tool. Like, then at the end goal, the end goal is, is knowing your self called. That's why it's a self development program through the four temperaments. It's not like initially it was a class on the four temperaments, but I realized that the goal isn't the four temperaments. That's just a science that we could use. The goal is to get to more, to, to knowing ourselves because of what we can get to know ourselves. We can get to know a lot. That's the, the purpose of the whole thing. But, um, but, and that's why this is such a fantastic tool because a lot of people in knowing themselves, how do I get to know myself? That's why Muslims or anyone is do reading this off art books and whatever. Because how can I get to know myself better?

Isaaq: 03:01:01 And there's all these funny books. I've got so many friends of mine who are reading these books on like all these different perspectives and it's like the way of the superior man next. Some of these books are like a, I mean I haven't read, I haven't read that one in particular, but there's other ones that I just read. Like you're not as smart as you think and in that that you just get shredded as a human being. There's no solutions. And that's what I was saying earlier on because the foundations of the philosophy of the western psyche is deconstructing everything. Yeah. Like we did that at uni. Roger's deconstruct every weekend we'll show the two arguments. Who was the solution? Who cares what the solution is? Can you deconstruct it? The more you can deconstruct, the better you are. So science is all about is deconstructed, deconstructed, deconstructed.

Speaker 6: 03:01:37 What about the constructing [inaudible] replacing the why you're offering nothing. [inaudible] builders [inaudible] palaces, we construct and I guess that's what if you construct this one here, that's what the process was telling you. Just construct

Isaaq: 03:01:53 this. That's the Goldman like that's why, uh, that's why, yeah. Th Th th you know, even the workshop, one of the reasons is to share with people, but really deep down it that I just need like good to, to cover up my bad. And in the process from says you do a bad, do a good to cover it up. So

Speaker 6: 03:02:15 it's been amazing conversation. Alhamdullilah its been a pleasure. Thanks for giving us the opportunity. Thanks for [inaudible]. Thanks for Malika here in la too. Happy though cause um, it's not good to talk too much and that's why I'm not a fan of podcast [inaudible] saying like the meeting is a message and I think I set up like this allows us to take a step back then to really reflect. It's not very short to the point because there's a lot of ideas that you'd really need to dig deep and you do an injustice if you just it like a very short yeah, no that's true show real life examples as well. So take away, that's why I revealed some of my personal for everyont to kind of relate to inshallah, but thank you for the gift and the, should we, should we finish off with this poem? Go for it. Yeah, I just thought it's, yeah. This book was just given to me now

Isaaq: 03:03:08 did by the boys in the cave and um, and I don't even know the author and I just opened it to a random page and it's full strangers. And what's interesting is, is, um, you know, uh, some of us have just met, um, in, so the poet ses, I tiptoe through these lands without a clear view where it would lead me through a journey of words. I'll make amends. Why hold a man down for wanting to be free? Because you will never understand what you have until you intentionally or unintentionally lose it. The reason I crossed season travel through lands to appreciate what I had in the land where I bleed, you'll meet people just like you. And similarly different skins who loved unconditionally through very different means podcast, hear them out, give them your time, he'll clear your doubts in a different Ryan. So it's something to think about. And the book is called a Syfakallah May Allah Heal You. So I just want to give them credit, the guy. So yeah, that's the book

Tanzim: 03:04:23 and check it out. Yeah. Check it out in shaa Allah. But even with the old who put everything in our show notes, um, do you have any, if people wanted to check your socials and stuff? Yeah.

Isaaq: 03:04:31 Okay. That's always important. You got to do this type of stuff. All right, so here we go. Piss middler Miley, this time if I leave anything out. So, uh, there's the website, I have it, isaac.com forward slash knowing yourself and hopefully there'll be stuff on the soon as it's still developing. Um, but you can stay in the checking out and maybe, you know, just a book market, my email for any, for any quick queries, we have a team of deal with it, so I'm, and any for any bookings, the program's has been done in over 20 cities in over six, seven countries. Um, two Muslim and non Muslim audiences in corporate environments, in private bookings between families and also just general events as well. And also for schools. There's modules on how to improve the relationships between teachers and students while the four temperaments that there's a lot of stuff out there for people. Um, so it's [email protected]. Uh, so the baseball, my name is, or would you just put it out for [email protected] and then you, and then my Instagram is Isaaq.Mohammed. A lot of my stuff is posted on there. Um, on Facebook there's a page as well, but you can just add me on my Facebook. Um, that's a Mohammed Isaaq. My name is actually Muhammad Isaaq. Just Instagram. I couldn't get the, that combination, so I swapped it. Um, and um, anything else? Yeah. Was there anything? My number is,

Tanzim: 03:05:49 my address is,

Isaaq: 03:05:51 in shaa Allah. Yeah. And the most important thing is just to make Dar for, for this project and for myself before the whole, my like constantly make the all for the situations that are going on at the, that's the biggest thing that you can do, but also following Sharon liking whatever else has to be done a lot. But Sharla,

Tanzim: 03:06:09 um, mailer, you know, give you success in your work. So no, I mean it's, it's much needed as well. It's very unique, especially in normal [inaudible] it's like a support system. Like, it's funny how some people might see it as common, even with other Muslim podcasts and whatnot. People Think, oh, you're in competition with them. But really so when we will have the same goals, same intentions about helping one another. So exactly,

Isaaq: 03:06:30 there'll be, there'll be a mentoring system, uh, as soon as well in shaa Allah so people who actually want to, who've maybe done the course or are familiar with it, but want to take it further. They can also get in touch and hopefully we can, we can arrange something like that. So there's a lot of potential. But like you said, people should be supporting boys in the cave as well. Um, and uh, and um, and start your own initiatives as well. You know, don't just copy and paste, you know, Muslims have a tendency to just, they made upon podcast lets make a pod podcast, um, do something different and, and uh, and have a good time as well. Like, you know, it's a life's kind of serious anyway, so just stay within the boundaries of but have a good time as on in Charlotte

Tanzim: 03:07:05 and don't think of, I'm seeing the success in this life because you never know could be planting the seeds for the next generation. So that's 100%. Don't just see it as, or like even with me, if we had 10 listens, whatever, just be like, yeah, good information. Yeah, In shaa Allah plant the seeds for my kids or they won't show. Exactly. I'll wrap the puppy up there. So for our listeners, thank you for giving us your attention. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email us at [email protected] or find us on Facebook and you can follow our journey through Instagram. Please leave a five star rating on iTunes as that greatly helps us. Um, if you actually wanted to check out [inaudible] humble Oola I know we talked about stats and stuff. We'll be number one on Australia, iTunes, UK, iTunes. We're on top 10 machines at home. Really? So yeah, you can check that out. So keep supporting us like iTunes and give us the five star ratings. Share with, um, on your Instagram, on Instagram. If you tag us, I'll probably share on our boys in the cave as well. Yeah. So just do that. Inshallah. Just tell people, and you know about our podcast. So for special guests, Sidi Isaaq and Malik and myself, we show the best. This is Tanzim signing you off. Assalamu Alaykum. lright. [inaudible] [inaudible].

Episode 45 - Sins & Repentance | Michael Sugich

27 juli 2019 | 31 min

Stories of The Awliya, Purifying the heart, Storytelling, Worshiping Allah, Nature of Humans, Tawba.

We touch on all of this with Michael Sugich.

Michael Sugich has studied Sufi doctrine and practice with spiritual masters across the Arab and Islamic world.

He has been a professional writer and communications advisor for forty years and has written three books, including Signs on the Horizons and also his latest book release is Hearts Turn: Sinners, Seekers, Saints & The Road to Redemption.

He is the co-founder of a successful public relations practice and has advised corporate leaders, senior religious figures and politicians.

Hosts : Tanzim & Peter Gould

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Check out our website - boysinthecave.com

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Buy Michael Sugich's Book 'Hearts Turn'.

https://www.amazon.com/Hearts-Turn-Sinners-Seekers-Redemption/dp/0989364003

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Shownotes

Michael Sugich: 00:00 If you understand that you're supposed to be in Tawba, that this is the, this is part of your nature, is this, this sense of turning. Um, it's, it's an essential part of any kind of spiritual life you have to be in Tawba. It's it turning, it's not the, the repentance, you know, uh, this idea of repentance is like, you know, repent, you know, of all of your sins. Yes. Ideally you would be great if you could stop doing all the stuff that is keeping you back. But that isn't how things work. It's a constant process. And if you can accept that and, and the, the way that you, you achieve that is through remembering our law, returning to our law. Remember Allah, uh, you know, uh, Illah be Dhikri, Lahita, Atman Qulub. If the remembrance of Allah makes the heart peaceful. So if you remember Allah constantly, that's your tool for getting out. You know, Islam is Islam. When you die, you don't have Islam anymore as, as a practical tool that's, that's done. Islam is for your life. So use it. It's a, it's like a tool box. And if you don't use the tools, you won't build anything. But the, and the, the primary tools are remembering them.

Tanzim: 01:41 [inaudible] welcome back to another episode of boys in the cave. My name is tanzim your solo cohost. Actually, sorry, not solo cohost was meant to be, but Alhamdullilah we actually have a very special, um, cohost with us. So Peter, Gould for you guys who've checked out our previous episodes. Peter, we actually interviewed him, designer, um, runs a firm, does his amazing stuff. So he's actually joining me in the cave today, but humble la. In terms of our special guests, we have Michael [inaudible]. So Michael Souk CGH has studied a Sufi doctrine and practice with the spiritual masters across the Arab and Islamic world. He has been a professional writer and communications advisor for 40 years and has written three books including signs of the horizons and also his latest book release his heart turn sinners seekers, saints and the road to redemption. He's the cofounder of successful public relations practice and has advised corporate leaders, senior religious figures and politicians. So asalamu walaykum Peter Gould and Michael Sugich and welcom to boys in the cave. [inaudible] anytime. Alhamdullilah, I know you've, I think you landed about two days ago here in Sydney. So would this be your first time in Sydney, Australia or have you personally I've never been here before. Paula. And what's been your experience so far?

Michael Sugich: 03:01 It's lovely. It's very relaxed. Uh, I enjoy it very much. It, it has a, there's a certain, it looks a little bit, if you look at the street level and it looks like America, then you start looking at the houses and the architecture and it's different. So it's a kind of an interesting mix of uh, uh, styles. I feel very comfortable here. Some all of the weather too. It's great.

Tanzim: 03:27 Yeah. It's um, yeah. I want to actually ask you about the weather cause it's a bit unique compared to, um, wherever we've tried. Maybe I think you, you said you went to UK previously. UK is a lot different to here.

Michael Sugich: 03:39 Yeah, very much, very much. I um, the UK is a kind of second home for me, so I'm very used to it. But the weather systems there are very, it's very, in the winter it's very dark and closed in. What's beautiful about Sydney so far in my experience is the skies stunning. You know, it's huge. You've got this vast sky and you, it's, it's beautiful. It's really, really beautiful.

Peter Gould: 04:10 You, you were welcomed with a really beautiful big sunset, you know, the whole sky, which is pretty unique. I mean, we don't see that often. So it was, it was waiting for you? I think

Tanzim: 04:21 subhanAllah. Um, I know you, um, you actually had a invent last night. It was in regards to your book release. I assumed that was the main reason why you came to Sydney, also to check out the views and common boys in cave. But, uh, how was your experience so far in terms of the book release, your book launch and how have you, how have, um, so you promoted at [inaudible] avenue or is it specifically,

Michael Sugich: 04:48 yes, we, we, we did the, uh, reading here and, um, the response has been very positive. I, I won't know. You'll have to talk to some of the people that were there. But generally speaking, uh, worldwide, the response has been very strong. Um, I'm pleasantly surprised because when you write something, um, you, even though you may think it's good, you don't know what other people will think of it. So it was, um, it was a nice surprise to get such a strong response. And also in terms of sales, the book is selling very quickly. So that's, that's a nice, that's a sign that people are interested in that they like it.

Peter Gould: 05:35 My friend at, um, who runs the Bookstore Zaytuna college and a in Berkeley was just saying that yeah, it's been really popular there and uh, I guess people are resonating with it, but it's um, it's great that we have you in here in Australia sharing it with us. Hello.

Tanzim: 05:51 Hamdulillah even, um, your previous Booker's boys and Cape were affiliated with the Mad Mamluks. Uh, Mahin from the Mad Mamluks, he's a cohost there. He actually was promoting like your previous book, the signs of the horizons. He loved it alot so alhamdullilah, getting that our reception, cause it's a bit unique, I feel that people don't interact enough on a personal spiritual level with, you know, people of, um, within the spiritual path. And I think it's something that's really lacking, especially in the west, like especially me growing up, you're kind of exposed to a specific type of Islam and then it gets sort of normalized to that. But then people are sort of yearning, especially living in like a materialistic world. We're yearning for that sort of spiritual, I don't know, I don't know what to call it, like a cleansing or something of that. So, um, do you feel that that is the case with, especially with Muslims, um, living in the west, what has been your sort of,

Michael Sugich: 06:43 well, I think that what's unusual about the two books that I've written so far is that they revolve around storytelling. And storytelling is something that is, is in, uh, intrinsic to, um, Islamic, um, teaching. Uh, but it's something that's been lost in the modern era. Uh, the, the tradition of the TBA cart or hagiographies of the saints is something very old and ancient in Islam. But, uh, recently there has been very little, uh, storytelling. And if you look at the Koran, the Koran is, is, is a series of stories, um, arranged in a, in a almost fragmented fashion or seemingly fragmented fashion, but they're stories. And this is one of the most effective ways of, of putting across a message of, of, of, of teaching. So, uh, what I tried to do is revive this and revive it and tell the stories of some of these people in my own experiences and so on. So both books, um, have followed that kind of format of being short in short, specific individual stories of, um, uh, various people from various walks of life. And in the case of signs on the horizons, it was the story, my story, um, of stories of encounters with these men of God and women and people, you know, very extraordinary people that I've been able to meet along the way.

Tanzim: 08:36 [inaudible] and that's interesting you mentioned storytelling in particular because I think especially I think even with you, I'm Peter Good. You know that you know with your work you've been bothered with bombarded with information, um, and you don't know how to kind of process it. Whereas when you talk about storytelling, I'm sure you to do through your design work as well. Um, you try to tell a story and people are more receptive towards, they tend to remember stories more easily. And I think it's interesting, it's like you're trying to revive that nature of story storytelling in general because even me growing up in Sydney, Australia, when you're getting older, we're not as in touch with the Dean and you analyze some of the stories that you were told when you were younger. You realized that had such deep meanings to it. It was something you probably didn't pick up of Itin pickup, sorry, like when I was younger.

Tanzim: 09:29 But it's like what you're trying to do with your own books in particular, you actually met because for me, you know, you hear about Musa Alayhi Salaam and his stories and the profound effect on me, but you actually met those people in general. But what makes the people that you've met more different to just say your typical kind of person that wants to heal who lives in the west and goes to work from the offset. When you met them, the was there sort of, um, you can automatically tell they're a very deep spiritual guy. Like did you have to engage with them more in order to gather, you know, their personality?

Michael Sugich: 10:06 Well, the book doesn't, isn't organized in that way. Sometimes you, you meet someone who has an impact on you and you only meet them for a few seconds, a minute, you know, very brief encounters that you have in other cases in the book. Um, uh, there were people that I had very long relations with, you know, that over a period of many years. And so each encounter is different. But one of the things that, um, I think, uh, one of the qualities that these people share is that they're extremely humble and, uh, they're, they, they're very beautiful character and many of them, I mean, one of the sections in Thai signs on the horizons, for example, [inaudible] it really involves, um, people, um, appearances, people who have one appearance, but they're actually there, but they're actually something else. I mean, they could look like ordinary people, but they have extraordinary inner qualities.

Michael Sugich: 11:13 And I think the common thread of the people who have, um, who are saintly, let's say within our tradition, the Muslim tradition, is that they, their ego is, is extinguished. They don't have an ego. And it's very hard to imagine that if you haven't met someone like that because you think, well, how can you not have an ego? And when you meet these people, one of the things that you find is that the, they're extremely kind and humble and, uh, almost, uh, invisible in s in some senses. And they just, they don't get angry. They don't get frustrated. They don't have anxieties in the way that ordinary neurotic people have because their egos are gone or a faced. And this is through spiritual practice and that sort of thing. So that, that, that is, that's something that if, if you have the opportunity ever to meet someone like that, you, you're very fortunate.

Michael Sugich: 12:21 There's a, um, there's a, um, a story of one of the saints of Islam, uh, who had a dream of the prophet Mohammed and they sent out to us and he said, Yarra Sula, what is the best thing you can do in this world? And the prophet, and they sent her to send him, said in the dream to sit with a friend of God, a saint for as long as it takes to milk a goat or cook an egg, you know? So the impact of these people is very, very profound. So when you meet them, they make an impression on you. It's almost like being irradiated in a way. So, um, that, that's really what signs in the horizon was, was to try to let people know that these people in our tradition still very much exist, but they're more or less invisible because they're so humble.

Michael Sugich: 13:18 They don't really want to be known. Um, and if you, if you only know them by your intention and by the purity of your intention and your need to be, to, to meet them. Uh, the other book is really is more about the, the, um, the, the journeys of people from many different walks of life to, um, uh, to a recognition of the reality of the spiritual reality of Islam. Um, and, uh, and, and to, to the reality of is, uh, of, of faith. And so it, it signs, uh, excuse me, hearts turn is really a, consists of a series of stories of people from you who are from, they could be work. Some of them were criminals, some of them were ordinary people, some of them were our artists and intellectuals who have made a journey to faith. And so there are really interesting stories because you, you end up, um, seeing these people in the, in their transitional, you know, as they transition from being, uh, one of the, one of the stories is involves a gangster.

Michael Sugich: 14:47 He was a, a heavy east London racketeer and he became a Muslim. How did, how did he get to that? He knew he was nearly beaten to death and he saw friends die. So it was the confrontation with death. Another story involved, um, a young man who was a student who was from a Brachman Hindu Bryman family and, uh, he became a Muslim after he had to, to oversee the, the burial of his, uh, his, his uncle, uh, in Benares. So, um, uh, and it sent him on a kind of a spiritual search because he was, again, confronted with death. And there were, you know, many different stories as a story of, uh, of a man who started as a Jew became a, um, a, an angle, an Anglo Catholic, then a beatnik fought with the Fidel Castro in Cuba, uh, ended up, you know, as a kind of degenerate hippy in a, in Tangier and learned his Islam through his hash connection.

Michael Sugich: 16:05 So, you know, all these strange, interesting stories, um, kind of show you how the heart changes. And the point of that book is to show that [inaudible] that, that the nature of the human nature, the nature of, of people is that they're constantly turning, that the spiritually, that this idea that if you, if you sin, you're going to go to hell is not true. You see, I mean, if you sin and you die sinning, maybe you will, who knows? But the prophet Mohammed Array Serato Sonam said, if you did not sin, he was talking to his community. He said, if you did not sin, God would destroy you and replace you with the people who sinned so that they could turn to God asked for forgiveness and he would forgive them. So that's the nature of the, that's human nature to do something wrong. Everybody sins, even saints, Saint Sin, but the sins of a saint are different than the sins of an ordinary person because a saint, his sin, an ordinary person, sin would be a from something gross doing something wrong.

Michael Sugich: 17:26 The sin of a saint is forgetting God for a second. That's a sin for a saint. So everyone, everyone, their heart is constantly turning. You do some of the Prophet Mohammed and I said to Sadam, he said, I make Toba or I repent 70 times a day. This was the prophet Mohammed. So people in nowadays, people think of themselves as being sinners or then they're unworthy and that I've done all these things wrong. I mean, if you're living in the modern society, of course you're going to do things wrong. You get upset, you do something, you, you, you have a passion that you follow and then you feel bad about it and so on and so forth. But that's the he, that's human nature and that's the way you're, you're created to sin. And then to then to have the heart turn. And so it's a dynamic. You're constantly, constantly turning. And as you do that in that process, then you become purified and then in the heart becomes pure. So you have people who have done very terrible things. And this is true historically as well. People who were, you know, very bad people who became great, great saintly people, um, through this process. So this is what the book is about and it's a lot, many, many stories about people like that. Criminals, thieves, and also artists and intellectuals and people who've gone have, have really sort of made a journey to faith.

Tanzim: 19:11 So I think that made my heart turn. I don't know that you hit it, but that was definitely a vetting a, I think even, um, the, the um, would be apparently not on the dean, but then when he becomes a Mathy, he'll be on the straight path. So I think that's four, I think from memory as well. So they go, it relates back to you that, you know, great people were, you know, seen as I one time. It's about making the hot hot turn in that aspect. So it's definitely a lot of things that people can, uh, take away from what you said because a lot of people, you know, especially in the world that they live in, you know, bombarded with, you know, her arm around them, especially in the west. So it's not easy to get around it. So they feel sometimes, what are you quoting a negative state of mind thinking that they won't be able to turn to the straight path or they feel that they won't be able to really connect with the low, even feel shy, like to connect as they've seen so much. So what kind of advice, because you've interacted with people who have been in their path, what kind of advice would you give, um, to those people? Cause we have a young audience as well listening into boys in the cave. So it'd be really good to, um, get your insights about that.

Michael Sugich: 20:20 Well, it's, you, first of all, I would say two to a younger audiences. You don't ever think that by doing something bad that you're doomed to perdition because that's not the case at all. You have a chance of, of changing. Of course, if you don't want to change, if you're happy with the way you are and then go for it, do whatever you want. There's a, in, in, in the Koran it says La Crafty. There is no, um, uh, compulsion in the religion. You, you have, you absolutely have the freedom to send yourself to hell if you want. There's isn't, there's no compulsion, but you have the, the ability to change up until the moment that you die. And this, the, there are many stories about people who, who transform just before they die, you know, in old age. Um, and so when you're young and you're doing something wrong and you know it's wrong and you don't feel good about it, you can change.

Michael Sugich: 21:26 And the PR the, the Prophet said that if you, if you repent, it is as if you haven't done anything wrong. In other words, if you do change, you say, I'm not going to do this anymore and you stop. It's as if you never did it in the first place. So this, this Chi, this understanding is very important because young people today, young Muslims especially because they've been influenced by, you know, a kind of doctrine or theology that is very rigid in on and, uh, you know, uh, on unforgiving, um, they, they feel that if they did something wrong, that's it. They're going to go to hell. And that's not true. It's absolutely not true. And anyone who tells you otherwise is, is, is misguided. Um, because the whole point is that everyone sins, everyone all the time daily, but the sins become more and more refined.

Michael Sugich: 22:37 So you know, you're doing something really bad, right? Like a major sin or something. If you stop doing it, it's as if you, if you never did it, if you really stopped doing, and also, um, sometimes you, you do something and then you'll backslide and you'll do it again. So then you, you change again. You repent, you turn to God again and say, Whoa, I'm sorry. I'm, I'll, I'll change again. So you, it's a constant process until, um, uh, in, until you stop doing these things. And that's, this is the nature of, that's the nature of the is human nature. Human nature is that you do things wrong. And that's how you learn. So you, you, you air and then you, you repent. Now if you think that you don't have to, that's another problem. You see what I mean? Cause if you want to live a, a balanced and a happy life, you, you really don't want to hurt other people do or, you know, cheat, steal, do whatever it is that, that, that you're doing that hurts people.

Michael Sugich: 23:48 Um, and so, uh, I mean one of the, one of the stories in the book [inaudible] involves, uh, a guy who was a womanizer. And He, at one point in his life, he went to hell, to figurative hell. He was in a state of being in hell. And one of the things that happened to him is that all the women that he'd had is a one night stand came through in from the wall toward him. It was like a horror. And he realized how he'd hurt them. Do you see what I mean? And, and so he, he stopped doing that. That was a very terrible thing because he saw how he, how much he hurts someone doing that. So th but this, if he hadn't done it, he wouldn't have changed. Do you see what I mean? Well, the, the man who, there was a man, one of the stories is about someone who was a gangster and he was fueled on rage.

Michael Sugich: 24:52 And he, he loved to be, he loved to be in a brawl. And he's, he said that the reason he liked fighting was because he was so insecure that the only time he ever, ever felt secure was when he was in the middle of a brawl, beating someone up or getting beaten. It w it made him feel, it made him feel whole in a way. And then he read, when he came to Islam, he read the Hadith of the prophet and I said to send [inaudible] where one of the Sahaba came to the prophet and he, he said, give me counsel. And the Prophet said, do not be angry. And the Sahaba asked him again, give me more counsel. He said, do not be angry. And he kept repeating, do not be angry. And this man, uh, when he heard this, he said, it changed my life because he couldn't imagine not being angry.

Michael Sugich: 25:51 His whole life was fueled by rage and the anger and being offended by things. And so what happened was that when he would do after he became a Muslim was he would go out with the intention that he would not get angry. So he'd go out and someone would insult him or something like that and he, instead of beating the guy, he would, he would make himself not angry. And so you, it's when you, when you see, when you kind of see all the various permutations of how people change, it's really very moving because you see, you see how the heart is so malleable and so soft and able to change. Um, if it's right, be guided, if, if it, if there's guidance there. So that's, that's what the second book is about.

Tanzim: 26:49 Those were amazing insights. I feel like he's already taught us like, hello, what the book is, but like he was, but just, it's like he's read the whole book in front of us. But because of the vibe that you give in regards to certain people, I think a lot of people can resonate with it. Especially because like for example, you're giving these examples of people coming to the straight path at the same time we, I think what we tend to do is look everything, not me. I tend to look at everything on more of a surface level, like seeing all disguise, doing the wrong thing, this and that. But it's about seeing it a bit more deeper. Seeing that they can come back to the faith and be, you know, a practicing really good, you know, most of them are a good person and we don't tend to do that or I don't tend to do that. We tend to be be a bit more unforgiving. Maybe it's the way Islam was preached to us when we're younger and I feel like you're actually changing that narrative. So humble. Um, I might actually have to wrap it up there because you got an event tonight, but I'm, I don't want to keep you waiting too long, but with any final thoughts you wanted to, um, tell our listeners in particular regards to your book. It could be anything in general, like a lot of takeaways by it.

Michael Sugich: 28:04 No, it's, I think it, it's, it's a fun read. There's a, there's a lot in it that's not heavy. There's a lot in it that that's, that's, that's funny and, and light and there's some great stories in it and I think people would really enjoy, and you can learn a lot because I've included some of the ancient stories. I've mixed them with contemporary stories and the, there are many different, you know, many, I think there, there are stories that will resonate with we're very big audience, not just not just criminals or excrement or something. It's, it, it really, um, I think it's w it would be worth having a look at anyway. It's available here at the center.

Peter Gould: 28:52 Yeah. Music online as well. You can buy online. Lots of places

Michael Sugich: 28:56 available on kindle as well. So we're online.

Peter Gould: 29:00 Yeah. And I'll just add to that the, yeah, I mean lots of different people from walks of life that have come across the book that I've talked to about have said the same thing and different stories resonate with different people. So I think it's a good gift as well for people that are kind of, um, well it just, everyone will take something from it and some of them are very, very moving as well and others are more lighthearted. So, um, I think this is a very welcome addition to, um, you know, we might be going to classes or and doing, you know, really getting going into some heavy books and you know, very deep things. But this has the depth and the message and, and the lessons are deep, but the way you read it is, is um, easy and fun and um, you know, just something will, I think everyone will enjoy checking it out.

Tanzim: 29:44 Yeah, definitely. We'll definitely put the links to your book in our show notes so then people can check it out in shaa Allah but jazakAllah khaiyran for coming on boys in the cave was really inspiring. Talk is very unique because it's about getting the message across about stories, about, you know, people turning back to the straight path. It's not something I've done to regularly on the show, but yeah, it does. [inaudible] for coming on boys in the cave. Thank you. So for our listeners, thank you for giving us your attention. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email [email protected] or find us on Facebook and you can follow a journey through Instagram. Please leave a five star rating on iTunes. That greatly helps us. So for my special guest, Michael Sugich, myself, and my special cohost, Peter Gould. This is Tanzim signing you off. Assalamu Alaykum.

Episode 44 - Empires & Expansions of Islam | Hassam Munir

14 juli 2019 | 91 min

Islamic expansions, Campaigns, The Mongols, Muslim rulers, Sacred history, Historical objectivity, Orientalism, Hadith criticism

We touch on all of this with Hassam Munir.

Hassam Munir is currently pursuing an MA in Mediterranean and Middle East History at the University of Toronto. He is a research fellow at Yaqeen Institute. He has experience in the fields of journalism and public history, and was recognized as an Emerging Historian at the 2017 Heritage Toronto Awards.

Hosts : Tanzim & Rafael

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

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Hassam's Online Visibility

https://twitter.com/HassamM_

https://www.ihistory.co/

https://www.facebook.com/hassammm

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Shownotes

Intro: 00:00:00

Tanzim: 00:00:16 Welcome back to another episode of boys in the cave. My name is Tanzim and I'm joined by my cohost Rafael and alhamdullilah I'm joined by someone very special today. So Hassam Munir one year is the, is our special guest today and he is currently pursuing an MBA in Mediterranean and Middle East. History at the University of Toronto is a research fellow at Yaqeen Institute. He has experience in the field of journalism and public history and was recognized as an emerging historian as at the 2017 heritage Toronto awards. So Assalam Walaykum Hassan and welcome to boys in the cave.

Hassam: 00:00:52 Walaykum Assalam thank you so much for the invitation

Tanzim: 00:00:56 JazakAllah Khayr for uh coming on accepting our invitation and actually just doing some background research. I saw you were on, um, you've already done a few interviews, you know, you're in involved with Yaqeen institute, so how has your experience been just doing all that sort of stuff when it comes to, you know, putting your material out there even I'm, I've seen some blogs and articles that you've done as well.

Hassam: 00:01:19 Uh, yeah, absolutely. My entire, um, you know, reason for getting into the field of history has always been about just trying to make that knowledge more accessible because there's, you know, a lot of amazing research that's done at universities, uh, by independent researchers, even by some of the traditional, uh, traditionally trained Islamic scholars around the world. And, but it never sort of reaches the public in a way that they can, uh, you know, easily engage with it and learn from it and find inspiration in it. So I just tried to take information from some of these, you know, thick, dusty books in libraries and these journal articles that people generally will not find or go looking for and try to repackage that information and presented in a way that people, uh, are sort of, um, you know, there's a shock value to it that wow, is this also Islamic history? Is this also what Muslims have done or what Muslims have experienced? Um, and, uh, I think it makes for a much more, uh, thorough and, uh, a much more, uh, you know, appreciated understanding of, uh, who we are as Muslims and what our tradition is all about.

Tanzim: 00:02:28 Yeah. I think for sure starting from the very beginning of Islamic history, and I know this is something that a lot of your research has gone into, the kind of spread of Islam and the nature of that. Um, but one of the things that brought me to Islam was actually studying history. So I study history at University of Sydney and um, mashAllah, I was really, yeah, if you saw my marks, you wouldn't be saying that, but I have the low things. Everything's going all right so far. But I suppose one of the things that brought

Rafael: 00:03:00 me to Islam was my fascination with Islamic history. I remember when I was about 13 or 14 years old, I found this dusty old history textbook in the back of a library at school one day. And I just flipped through it cause it's always been my life. History has always been my passion and, and the thing I wanted to make a career out of. So I remember picking up this dusty old textbook and it had in the Islamic world to 1600 and I think I read that 10 page chapter about 150 times and I just couldn't take my eyes and my hands off it. It was the most fascinating thing I'd ever read. I obviously hadn't heard much about Islam growing up too in a, in a non Muslim family in the West. Um, but picking up this textbook, I was kind of entranced by Islam.

Rafael: 00:03:45 It's symbols and the early history and, and, and it's the way it kind of burst forth this tiny isolated peninsula, uh, that had been of little interest to anyone, uh, for, you know, the Romans, the Persians, no one really cared about the Arabian peninsula and, and, and especially the hedgers, um, and then how it spread to become this empire of science and, and culture, uh, being very important as well. So for people who aren't really aware of the beginnings of Islam and how it spread from sort of, you know, a very small group of Arab, um, and Abyssinian, uh, followers in a very isolated part of the world to kind of global religion that flourished from China all the way to the Pyrenees in France. Um, how did that, how did that happen and what were the sort of, you know, what was the sort of breakdown of, of that transformation?

Hassam: 00:04:48 Um, so that's obviously a very, very large complex question that people, um, you know, you could dedicate your entire life to studying it and people have and you only end up scratching the surface. Right? Um, there's many questions within that. Um, you're right in that it was an incredible, um, transportation, uh, sorry TransformNation I should say at the global level. And um, but it was very much, uh, the foundations were very much laid, um, during the lifetime of Prophet Mohammad. So Allahu la was sending himself. And this is something we sometimes, uh, you know, fail to recognize in this larger question of Islamic history and the spread of Islam, et Cetera, is that the principles and the values and, um, the precedents that were set by the profits of the law while they was selling them and his followers around him, um, have remained the, uh, consistently accessible source of inspiration for Muslims throughout history.

Hassam: 00:05:52 So obviously in this question we have many different questions about and um, Muslims conquering certain areas of the world, Islam spreading to certain areas of the world, uh, through other sort of factors and mechanisms such as trade, such as migration, such as intermarriage, such as influential people in different societies converting to Islam and their followers sort of following them into Islam. So there's these many different factors as well as the scientific production of the Muslims, you know, inheriting all this knowledge from the pre Islamic civilizations and developing it, uh, with the purpose of understanding, um, the creation of a loss of hunter who with Eila, and then also sharing it further back with other civilizations. So, you know, it's a very complex, there's so many angles that we can go on here on this question. But I think a key thing to keep in mind as a starting point is that it is the consistency of Islam that has been exceptional throughout history.

Hassam: 00:06:58 A lot of movement start, a lot of developments happen, a lot of new ideas and ideologies emerge in history. But over time, as they spread to different places, they become very drawn out. They become stretched in to the point that whatever you know, connection, um, whatever original source, uh, they had that brought it together initially. Um, it had become so different and so distant from that that it's almost like you have, you know, different ideologies and it's a completely different thing. But Islam has always been Islam and the core on obviously the authoritative source, the Sunnah of The Prophet SAW as the authoritative source. And the Islamic tradition. So well organized right from the very beginning. You know, the process through which Islamic knowledge was produced, that no matter where Islam went, whether it went to China, whether it went to South America, whether it went to Europe, whether it went to small islands in the Pacific, at different points in history, Islam could be practiced keeping those core principles and those core practices of the tradition intact while also taking whatever was acceptable in the local culture and local customs and bringing that into the way Islam was practiced.

Hassam: 00:08:16 And I think that's part of the beauty of our history.

Rafael: 00:08:19 One of the points I kind of wanted to touch upon fall was that that is certainly been the case. Um, I think certainly, I think probably from a later sort of time, a lot of people would argue that early Islamic history was actually quite fractured. Uh, you know, you had the kind of [inaudible] theological differences. For example, you had like my Teslas and Ashley's, which actually became a very political difference during the time of the manner. Uh, but you also had the kind of insurrectionists, uh, hardy. Jeez, you had the [inaudible] movements and then you had the Condo of

Tanzim: 00:08:56 Plethora of impious Caliphs who didn't really seek to do anything except for advanced their own position. So how, how did you know, how does that sort of fit into the understanding that Islam was traditionally maintained to? Because even people say that motel z lights, like if it didn't get backing from the government, then we would have all been from the Airbus. Yeah. From, from [inaudible]. That's where the issue comes is like, do we truly have that, um, tradition intact and are we really, um, continue that tradition that we see from whistle whistle some or was it kind of dictated by the governments or the powers of the time?

Hassam: 00:09:37 Um, if, you know, it's a point that can be argued. Um, and I think there are some arguments, uh, you know, good arguments that could be made on, um, many different perspectives and approaches to how we answered this question. My argument would be that there has still, uh, been that consistency, um, relative to the way that other ideas, other, uh, worldviews, ways of understanding the world have spread throughout history. Within Islam, there has still been that a consistency and still been that, um, regular, um, you know, consistent reference back to the original sources. So yes, there have been many different movements. Um, there have been many different understandings as there continued to be today. Many, you know, accepted and many non accepted differences of opinion. Um, and I think, you know, once again it speaks to diversity, um, that is possible within the Islamic tradition and how, um, sort of Islam can respond to different contexts and different, um, you know, situations without using its essential reality.

Hassam: 00:10:47 Um, but at the same time I would argue that that consistency has remained. Yes, there were very, uh, you know, um, very pronounced sort of differences between people, uh, practicing Islam or claiming to practice Islam in different ways and different forums. Um, and it's, sometimes it is very clear when, um, they seem to have really pushed the boundaries of what we can consider the Islamic tradition. But I would still argue that there has been, um, this, you know, I think historically speaking from a historical lens, the fact that, um, even today a Muslim from Siberia and Russia can travel, um, and find a must Jude in sub Saharan Africa, in west Africa and go inside the Messenger and they wouldn't need an introduction to what they have to do. The fact that they know that they're do certain things that they have to do, the fact that they know where to stand for the prayer, what is being recited, et Cetera, all of these things, um, the fact that we can expect that to be a normative case, I think that is a very exceptional thing about the Islamic tradition within human history. Because rarely, extremely rarely, and to be honest, I wouldn't, um, find any comparable example of that level of, uh, shared, um, you know, core principles, values, beliefs and practices, um, in any other worldview that has existed and spread so far in the world, uh, throughout Islam, throughout human history, I should say.

Rafael: 00:12:21 I would certainly agree with that in the sense that Islam was maintained, uh, from a very early, from a very, very early time in kind of this understanding of traditional knowledge and knowledge of the tsunami that that was, uh, transmitted through various teachers to all the teachers who kept the, the traditional life. Um, and you know, we still have preserved aspects of the early foundational takes of Islamic law for example, um, that have been authentically transmitted and we still use them as a source today. And I don't think that there are really, as you mentioned, any other major religious or cultural traditions that can claim that. But one of the points I really wanted to ask you about was how did religion inform the early conquests of the Muslim empires, particularly? Um, the one that, that first springs to mind, and it was probably the most significant, was the, uh, defeat the invasion and defeat of both the Byzantines empire.

Rafael: 00:13:19 So the Roman Byzantines in Syria and the Persians, cause everyone understand sort of that Muslims defeated the Persians and the Romans. It was always that prophecy with, uh, I'm fairly sure a full loss of la La Hello. Someone mentioned that, you know, the two great empires and pals of the time would be defeated by the Muslims and people kind of laughed at that, but then eventually they did. But how, how did religion inform those movements? So some people would certainly claim that it was a, a kind of Muslims were implored to go out militarily and expand the empire. Was it, was it, was that the case or was it more kind of, I've also heard people say that it just so happened that the Muslims became embroiled in conflicts with these two powers and then, uh, consequently they, those two powers were defeated by Muslim armies and hence Muslims occupied the lands.

Hassam: 00:14:16 Um, so, you know, one of the things I always like to, you know, emphasize in my research, um, for most topics in Islamic history or history in general, is that we often seek, um, very straightforward sort of, uh, you know, simple answers to extremely complicated situations. If we take the life of one individual, whether today or a thousand years ago, if I take my own life and why I make my decisions, how I make my decisions, how my decisions impact my environment, how am I environment responds and impacts my further decisions? It's a very complicated process regardless of what my, uh, stated, uh, purpose, what my stated inspiration might be. Right. So that's one thing to keep in mind, not to say that this isn't a question that needs to be discussed, but I think that's very important to keep in mind before we jump into that discussion.

Hassam: 00:15:12 Now you mentioned the two sort of primary, uh, you know, commonplace perspectives on this question. I think, um, the latter one is more, you know, the, the, the perspective which says that the Muslims, um, became embroiled in the, uh, you know, the political developments in the region. Um, I think that one is just a bit more, um, you know, leaning towards d, You know, a reasonable interpretation of the sources we have available. Let me put it that way. But at the same time, there was this, uh, you know, this impetus, right? There are, these are Heidi from the profits of the law who leu was along himself that predict these, uh, particular conquests of the Byzantines and assassinate Persians, um, in particular and also Islam reaching particular places. So initially I think the most reasonable explanation is that initially during the life of the profits of the law, who, while he was selling them and his early successors, what the idea was that, um, the message of Islam had to be communicated and in cases where there were, um, limitations on the communication of that message.

Hassam: 00:16:35 Um, and you know, part of the communication of that message was the political situation of the Muslims because from the perspective of people in the Byzantine Empire, indecisive and empire, um, they recognize this suddenly emerging threat just because of how, um, fast Islam spread in the Arabian peninsula itself. Right? So for them it was this serious threat. It wasn't the Muslims, like, you know, a fly sort of going and landing on their nose and them trying to like swat it away or something that initially caused these things, but they recognize Islam and we have a Heidi's and narrations that, you know, tell us to that effect as well that they were concerned. And for example, um, you know, when I was Sophie on, uh, before he embraces Islam, he goes to Syria on a trade mission, a heraclitis. He actually, you know, gives him a little interview about who is this person [inaudible] then he's asking all of these questions because they need this information.

Hassam: 00:17:33 So it wasn't a Muslim, you know, insurgency into these empires that started these conflicts initially. Um, there was this, um, idea on, you know, the end on the side of the Muslims within the understanding and the worldview of the Muslims. And this was normative at the time, um, that they had to communicate this message and this worldview and they had to brush aside some of the impediments. Right. But at the same time, you know, on the other side, there was this more political, um, perspective on the situation that this is an emerging sort of regional power and we have to respond to it. So oftentimes you'll find the Roman armies coming two words Arabia rather than the Muslims going to words Roman controlled sham first. Right? So again, it becomes a very complicated situation once the Muslims have actually established their rule there. And even the conquest, I mean, the word conquest is very broad and very easy to use to explain, um, wary complex events again, but not all places were militarily conquered.

Hassam: 00:18:44 Some places, uh, the Muslim armies were actually welcomed by the local people because they were seen as liberator's from more oppressive rulers who had ruled in that region before. Right. And in some places there were treaties made, there was no conflict, there were treaties made, and then the Muslims receded and went back, et cetera. So there were all these different types of scenarios that played out in different situations. Yes, there's no denying. And I think Muslims sometimes do go, you know, overstep when it comes to denying that there was a, a military and there was a violent aspect to the conquest at times. But when you see, for example, you know, one of my favorite examples is business insider. This online blog. Um, they had this animation that they posted a few years ago on Facebook, which shows the spread of different religions and you know, they show when it comes to Islam, obviously it quickly, this little green splotch on the map emerges and you know, around the year six 22 and then it just explodes and spreads all over North Africa, Asia, everything is everywhere all of a sudden.

Hassam: 00:19:55 And the fact too, I think the important thing to really recognize here is that the spread and the movement of Muslim armies can't be equated with the spread of Islam itself. Because the real question here is many historians will recognize that yes, it was normative for one people to conquer another people than for different particular localities. There'll be under one empire, then there'll be under another empire. And this was how the premodern world, um, worked. Right. Um, but the real problematic question is that well, were all those people then forced to convert to Islam at the point of the sword when those armies actually got there and what these maps and these animations kind of, uh, mislead people into thinking is that just because the Muslim armies within a hundred years had reached Spain and had reached the of China and all these places? You know, even at the time in many places in Arabia, Islam hadn't been established in the sense that the majority of the population was Muslim, much less anywhere outside the Arabian peninsula.

Hassam: 00:20:59 And obviously that's a different question, you know, all together about how did Islam actually spread the pace of it, the mechanisms and factors involved. But I think the key thing to keep in mind is that yes, the reconquest yes, at times that were violent at times of are nonviolent, but the conquest themselves do not represent the spread of Islam or the imposition. The forced imposition of Islam on to any of the conquered peoples and such conquests were normative at the time. And when we speak of them, we're speaking of them not in a prescriptive sense, not in the sense that Muslims today have to get up and replicate that situation, but as a historical phenomenon in a descriptive sense that yes, this happened, we're not going to deny it and we're going to take the relative, uh, lessons that we can from it. Uh, from a historical perspective.

Rafael: 00:21:49 Well, you mentioned that there's historians who have the opinion that by the nature of empire empires to expand like they're with you. I don't think you can ever name an empire in history that was content with its influence. It always wanted to grow its influence and, and grow its wealth and its, and prestige of the dynasties that ruled it and so forth. I think someone asked me,

Hassam: 00:22:10 sorry, one thing I'd just like to mention briefly about empires. I think another thing to keep in mind is that there's a lot of, um, you know, anti imperialism sentiment and anti imperialism, movements, et cetera. Uh, nowadays and many people, um, including myself and others, we've sort of learned in an environment where, you know, imperialism is taught to be a very bad thing. But again, from an intellectual perspective, um, we do have to ask questions about, you know, speaking about the expansion of empires as this really horrible thing that occurred in history. And yet, even today, you know, we continue to live in a world that has empires in different forums. There are multinational corporations that exploit people. Um, there are, you know, foreign policy infants,

Rafael: 00:22:57 Susan wanted states governments and was it any different from an empire?

Hassam: 00:23:01 Exactly. They function essentially to the detriment of conquered peoples. They function exactly like pre-modern empires and we continue to benefit even those of us who claim to be against imperialism. We continue to benefit the clothes. We wear, the food we eat, the cars we drive, we benefit from, you know, the suffering of people who are, uh, having these, you know, imperialist ambitions imposed on them without their free will. So I think we have to interrogate ourselves and keep that in mind as well. Um, that before we, you know, step back and start to judge everyone in history for everything they've done. How do those practices continue today and how do we allow those practices to continue and benefit? Yeah.

Rafael: 00:23:42 The kind of subtle empire that, that, you know, alludes our kind of gaze now. But we somehow manage to criticize a every other empire in history. It's, it's strange, isn't it? I mean, you don't have to look very deep to see the, uh, the empires that are at play that the empires were playing the game of chess in the world at the moment. Um, does even, you know, like tributaries and puppet rulers that are established nowadays that are exactly the same as what happened to our history. Exactly the same thing. But I think it's different words, different, different words, different definitions. And this called, we call it something else. Yeah. It's like they're trying to put fancy meanings to those words in order for us to look as if we're smarter and better. No, we've, we've progressed. Yeah. We're on. Yeah. We've politically reminder. Well, that's not exactly true.

Rafael: 00:24:32 The same ideas as back in those times. I actually wrote Hassan a major essay about the expansion of Islam. And um, I answered the question about how is whether Islam was spread by the sword exactly the same as kind of how you mentioned that understanding of the empire being the kind of political system and empires by their nature expanding. And so I said, if you believe that the empires, uh, that did expand in the name of Islam, we're acting Islamically then the real question is actually not did the Muslim empires expand, but was the expansion of the Muslim empires the kind of religiously correct way or the religiously correct manner and more important than that? What did that expansion actually mean? Like you mentioned, uh, the, the misconception that Muslims were forced to convert. It was even, it was even less than Muslims, uh, that, sorry, that normal, some populations were not forced to convert in on my ad times. I actually read that they didn't like, uh, conversions as much and basically they still levied the GCR, which was the, um, tax for the religious tax against certain new converts to Islam from Persian and Christian backgrounds. Such was the discouragement of conversions because the early or Maya the elite didn't really want the, or didn't really consider the need for their actual populace to become Muslim. Is that, is that true? How, how accurate is that?

Hassam: 00:26:05 Um, well, based on all of the sources I've encountered, um, that's exactly right. You know, for the [inaudible] situation in particular at much of that earlier, you know, quick expansion of Islam from Spain to China that we're talking about did you know, occur in d omega yet period between sort of the six sixties and the seven 50, that century was when most of that expansion occurred. Um, and you know, again, from the sources I've, uh, come across and sort of engaged with it is exactly that, that the, uh, as a matter of policy, um, they liked to, um, sort of, uh, keep de non Muslim populations as they were and actually actively discouraged conversion. And you know, this was for one because it wasn't any kind of, um, you know, this was much easier for the conquered populations to accept because it almost became a sort of, um, secularized expansion.

Hassam: 00:27:05 Right. It is just another empire divorced from the worldview that these particular people stand for. Yes, they might believe in it, but they often, you know, the Muslim conquerors, they wouldn't even live in those cities that they conquered. They would have their own little settlements just outside the city, et cetera. And this is how some of the biggest cities that we know of in the Islamic world, such as Cairo, right, was formed. There was an existing city and there was a Muslim settlement of the Muslim forces outside that city. And slowly the two of them, you know, came together and formed this enormous metropolis in Egypt. Right. And, and so there wasn't, um, that sort of active and in the early stages, a not even, um, Darwalla for example, right? Not even invitation to Islam. So all of this was an, we have to slow down the pace and look at it.

Hassam: 00:27:52 This was an extremely gradual process. The Amelia is in particular coming back to their policy. They loved the fact that, um, they could, um, extract the, uh, GCI in some cases it was the GCO which was the, the payment, um, required from the non Muslim population, um, in exchange, uh, for protecting dem, offering protection to them. Um, and, and, and sometimes it wasn't GCO, sometimes other forms and other forms of tribute and other forms of, um, you know, payment. And we're also established and for the conquered people, this was often nothing new, the same kind of attributes that they had paid to rulers in the past and oftentimes much easier on them than what they had paid to, uh, you know, would it be the Romans or the Persians or whoever that particular, um, pre Islamic ruler happened to be. Um, and again, it's just a, you know, it's almost, you know, silly to keep saying this, but at the same time it's just, you know, baffling how often in our discussions we don't keep in mind how complex this movement is.

Hassam: 00:29:04 Again, like I mentioned, and that's why I like to mention this previously one persons, um, decisions are so complicated. Now imagine the decisions of thousands of people as a, you know, and their interactions and the environment they build and how their environment affects them, et cetera. So in the Umayyad case as well, there is this particular environment where they were encouraging expansion. They love the Jessia and it was during the Ommaya time. I think that, um, the leadership really started to behave like, uh, the pre Islamic, uh, sort of rulers and, uh, you know, in I'm one article of way building, you don't have pirate builders and kings and extracting tribute for and expanding their empire for the sake of just having to claim to this enormous land, et cetera. And when you actually look at it and you know, look at their policies about whether they were trying to convert people to Islam, that wasn't the case at all. And it seems like it almost wasn't a priority for them.

Rafael: 00:30:03 Yeah. I've even heard commentators and historians referred to the [inaudible] and even the ambassador, uh, qualify as being almost comparable to secular rulers in the sense that some of them were even nominally Muslim.

Hassam: 00:30:18 I would see lots of examples. Yeah.

Rafael: 00:30:21 That, that they really had no interest in imposing a quote unquote state religion. And that religion didn't even inform the kind of laws that they often, you know, mandated the Baitullah mother. Didn't I have the like, wasn't that sort of things like that sort of justify that they were, you know, um, religiously inclined if some of them were definitely religious, Saint Klein, for example, Amada monopolies eas, no one can really doubt the piety and genuine faith of California would have been Abdelaziz, but there were 100%. There were, there were, um, Caliphs who had very little to do with any kind of religious, uh, promotion in terms of the populace. However, I think this is something that's a distinction. There were kind of creations of Islamic, uh, culture at the time that were done. So not to promote Islam in the society, but to kind of display the prestige on and the glory of the rulers themselves. Would you, would you say, would you say that's correct?

Hassam: 00:31:21 Um, I would say that's absolutely correct. I mean, if we look at, again, you know, the best, uh, of examples of Muslim leadership, um, the profits of the law while he was sending them, there were no, um, you know, just look at the, any of the descriptions of his own mosque during his time. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, just built of, um, very, uh, basic form of sort of raw materials, et Cetera, whatever it was locally available. And then you see examples of even when these Islamic Empire had considerably expanded, um, like during the time of, uh, automotive, no hotdog, but at the Ella Hawaiian, you see the example of, for example, the Roman ambassador coming to Medina and finding him just laying sort of in the dirt outside of Dumbest Shit, right? So you find all of these examples of their, um, a, of their, of their simplicity, not their powerlessness, but their, and not a false, uh, sort of, uh, you know, management on display of humility.

Hassam: 00:32:25 But they're genuine simplicity because they're, they were investing their time and energy elsewhere. And oftentimes in what you see in the later kings is you'll see these, um, grand, a sort of structures that are to establish their own prestige, um, and sometimes even the prestige. So sometimes it's a mix of boats such as the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, right by, um, uh, I've done [inaudible] given that amount of wine who was considered the first empire builder, one of the early, uh, [inaudible] k lifts. Um, but it does become about, you know, Thrones and glittery buildings. And my favorite example from Islamic history is really the, the Taj Mahal. Right? Um, and you see this building, which had really, you know, obviously it's making a lot of money for India today and has for a very long time, but considering the fact that it, there is considerable evidence that it actually, um, you know, brought down to some extent the economy of the Mughal empire at the time, um, complete, you know, waste and for what? Right. And representing what exactly. So, uh, there were, um, many examples I think where rulers did pursue policies and they did pursue projects that had very little to do with Islam and you know, really took a heavy influence from um, what they saw kings and rulers and other parts of the world and those that came before them.

Rafael: 00:33:52 If you are sort of a, an untied this to my audience, if you are sort of a practicing brother or sister and you do want to look into Islamic history and you want to kind of a judgement for which you want you to look into this standard note, that's one of it. If you want to kind of standard through which to understand many of the rulers look at what the great polymer, uh, wrote about many of the governments of the time and the relationship between the ultimate and the government. [inaudible] was very critical. Uh, I only throw him a love was very, very critical of the Omi ed policy towards non Arab Muslims. Um, in my, Malik had a very fractured relationship with the, the government that even culminated in him, him being tortured. I think at some point, three out of the foyer, memes were locked in jail or tortured by rulers.

Rafael: 00:34:42 Right. So if you want to understand how these rulers generally operated in relation to the religion itself, all you need to do is look at the relationship between side and the receipt with the Turkish government. Yes. Some next level stuff that he did, like he got abandoned. You're exhausted and you know, the stuff they wrote in the process and got Gerald and like nor even just like back in those times, but even the, um, recent times they were secular rulers to the Kemalists editor split. The understanding though that, that what has often happened in the name of the Islamic Empire is very different from what the people who are most knowledgeable in terms of the religion would have preferred or what, what they were actually directly calling for. How does the sort of expansion of Islam as an empire compared to other empires directly? For example, people might look, I often used to draw comparisons, the Mongol Empire, which is also a really important example for Muslims because, uh, the Mongols with us kind of scorge of Islam who obviously sacked Baghdad, they killed more Muslims than I think have ever been killed by any other foreign army. A lot of people thought that the Mongols were even your, uh, your agenda. My George [inaudible] was so dramatic and terrible for the Muslims. Um, I don't think many of us would understand how bad it was. Uh, but then they converted to Islam. Three out of the four Mongo is converted to Islam. But yeah. In terms of the expansion and the influence that Islam was able to have on societies compared to say what the Byzantines were able to do, what assassinated Persians were able to do, how does it compare?

Hassam: 00:36:29 Um, well, you know, Ma, every, you know, empire can be a unit of study in itself. Right. And in, in your sort of, within that context, what was going on and, but then the time period during which that empire existed, what was going on? Um, I think in terms of military, um, or even non military, um, you know, just the spread of an empire's influence, um, Islam, uh, or the Islamic empire. Um, I think first of all, we should, uh, interrogate that term itself. What we mean by Islamic Empire because as you've heard us discussing many of these empires while Dever led by Muslims and, um, primarily, um, uh, you know, had Muslim populations, um, as a matter of policymaking. And when it come to some of the, uh, officiating, no empire business, um, it wasn't too much inspired by actual Islamic teachings, right? So we have particular empires such as the who may yet such as the basset such as the later on, you know, that started joke send the mum Luke's and um, the song gay and the Sokoto in West Africa and you know, more of a reds in, in Spain and in many parts of the world, the moguls in India, et cetera.

Hassam: 00:37:46 Right? So we have all of these different empires. Initially, if we're talking about the initial expansion of Islam and I guess during the Omega Dynasty when most of what we now consider the core Muslim lands were, you know, um, unified, uh, at least nominally under one leadership, you know, the, you may it leader who had his seat in Damascus, in Syria. I think, um, in terms of the expansion, there really is no, um, comparison, right? Um, there really is no comparison in terms of the expansion itself of how fast that expansion was other than, and again, we're talking about the movement and expansion of the Muslim armies here. And I think the one exception would be the Mongols. The Mongols are the only sort of comparable the Roman empire. While we do talk about how enormous it was and how influential it was and how many different parts of the world are touched.

Hassam: 00:38:48 Um, we have to look at the scale here. So when the Mongols were just looking at, um, you know, a few decades for most of the expansions in the early Muslim empire, but just looking at a few decades, right. And the Romans had expanded considerably. Um, but their expansion generally was more drawn out over time. So it took a lot of time for these expansions to, um, you know, the empire to expand and then maybe a rebellion, so cave in a little bit and expand further, et cetera. Um, but again, in terms of, um, cultural, when it comes to cultural influence, then we're looking at a different set of criteria. So in that sense, for example, even the Greeks, the Athenian Empire, right? And we have to remember that the people who introduced democracy where themselves and imperialist people, right? If Damien it was a city, but they expanded and they were an empire, they have all the characteristics, right?

Hassam: 00:39:42 Um, they were expansionist, um, they had a huge influence even though are in terms of what they controlled and how far their influence reach two different questions or influenced reach enormously far. Um, but what they controlled was actually not very much. So these, all of these different variables we can play around with. Um, you know, maybe we can come back a bit to the Mongo question in particular. Um, I think the difference was that there is no comparison. Obviously there's a comparison between the timescale and the sort of, uh, area over which the expansion occurred. But I think there's no comparison in the sort of brutality of the Mongo conquest. They were much more, um, from all of the historical sources. And that's also something worth interrogating because we paint the Mongols as sort of like these I, you know, including into Muslim community, but many people who are more or less familiar with history in general like this unparalleled, you know, sometimes like the only people, you know, oftentimes you'll see the Mongo as compared to our, like the Nazis or something.

Hassam: 00:40:50 Like these are the worst of the worst. Like how bad could it possibly get right. Um, but the Muslim conquest were not as disruptive. They were not as destructive. They were not as, um, not nearly as wild Lindt in terms of, um, just the amount of people, um, killed. And the amount of infrastructural damage caused as a Mongo conquest were. And I think there is that interesting question. Right? And then the Mongo conquest, we're further, so there was that aspect among was for much more violent. Um, and the other aspect is that the Mongols within a few generations, as you mentioned, wherever they had expanded to the assimilated into the local culture and customs and religion, et Cetera, three of the four Mongo cognates as you mentioned, embraced Islam. Um, and in, in China they embrace Buddhism, etc. So they sort of assimilate it locally.

Hassam: 00:41:46 Um, and so that's the two distinctions and that was, makes the early Muslim conquest really exceptional where the Muslims, yes, they did obviously take on a local sort of, um, you know, uh, cultures and things of that sort. But their essence, as we mentioned at the beginning of the podcast, um, the essential, um, values and practices of the people remained intact, um, as well as not having to be nearly as violent to achieve the same amount of expansion in a very similar time scale. So I think that's what really makes what the early Muslim conquest so exceptional even when compared to the Mongol conquest.

Tanzim: 00:42:26 Is it true that a halo people say these spy, it's like three quarters of the world's population are descendants of gangs, car recorders. I don't think it's true or something like that. Why isn't there like a stat like that? I don't know how much the truth is it cause my mom's made a name, he's cons. So I'm just thinking am I descendant of gangs Connersville on because I've got explained to,

Hassam: 00:42:51 there's a lot of fake cons out there. Um, I often have a conversation with people, um, the, by stewing people of, of, you know, um, Northwestern Pakistan and Afghanistan, right. And, and the name con is very common amongst them. Um, and they've allowed this very, you know, aggravated conversation about real cons and fake cons, et Cetera, as I need to be in that conversation. But, um, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Um, you hear different is definitely okay. Let me tell you, this is definitely not three quarters. Um, I can, I'm pretty sure I'm not like, you know, very familiar with the field of genealogy and whatever science has attached to it, but I'm pretty sure it's not that. Um, but, um, you know, and, and descended from gangas con personally, um, it's, it's, it's a trope, right? And whenever you encounter all of these tropes that are almost accepted as a fact, we have to be really careful about how we talk about it.

Hassam: 00:43:51 Even in a casual conversation. It just, again, as part of this picture of how horrible the Mongols were, how horrible Kangaskhan personally was, gang has gone as at whatever crimes he may have initiated during his leadership. Kangaskhan has a very interesting life story and if you actually read about his life and read about his interests and, um, you know, tried to get a more historical understanding of his personality. He's a very interesting person. He wasn't just some brute from out of nowhere. And I think especially in the Muslim community, we have to recognize this, right? And a lot of what happened to Muslims during the Mongo conquest, the Muslims have to take their fair share of the blame, not just what they were doing, you know, like centuries before and how they were declining and they weren't prepared for the Mongo conquest. But even the decisions taken on the spot where such sometimes you read about it and it's baffling how blind and arrogant could you be to just brush off this threat to, despite knowing that, you know, the city next door had just been completely ruined and raised by this army.

Hassam: 00:45:00 And then they come to your door and you decide to talk up to them and, and you know, be arrogant and not only get yourself, you know, basically finished, but also the innocent people who, whose leader you were, who you were sort of representing their right. So, um, I think again, my main focus, like I think every point it becomes an idiotic to end off every sort of point I make with, it's more complicated than we want it to seem, including the life of Ganglias Con, the Mongo conquest, and literally any topic, right? So whatever topic, people are most interested in it, pick it up, but then make sure you're not just scratching the surface, tried to go a bit deeper and you'll find that there's much more to learn and appreciate.

Rafael: 00:45:40 Yeah. I think quite simply as opposed to complex. I think that the beheading of the Mongol ambassadors by the Horace Smith, um, was it the suit? Yeah, the horrors. Mid Emmy was probably one of the most significant events in Islamic history. It was one of the worst decisions is basically reversing the last 500 years. So basically the Mongol ambassadors came to the Muslim empire and um, it was quite a friendly kind of invitation, like, oh, hey, you know, where the Mongols were in charge of China now. Yeah. I would have just coming up into your Facebook sup, you know? Yeah. In the DM.

Hassam: 00:46:19 I mean, it was an invitation for,

Rafael: 00:46:20 yeah, it was then the corpsmen. Yeah,

Hassam: 00:46:23 hi.

Rafael: 00:46:27 Yeah. And the Mongols invaded Persia and just completely just destroyed the place and the civilization there. Well, it didn't really recover too. You know, it's pre Mongol, Gloria, and they say that often when you talk about the Islamic Golden Age, a lot of people trace the decline of the Islamic golden age to the Mongol invasions. Though I don't necessarily agree with that personally, but it's one point that, you know, has been mentioned. But

Tanzim: 00:46:55 in terms of just unbusy with talking about more about expansions and stuff, I wanted to kind of, uh, direct the conversation to sort of the early civil wars in Islam that existed. So they sort of were pivotal, you know, it's very pivotal because even it's the reason why we have sectarian divide, right? The Sunni and Shia divide and are most specifically, I just wanted to hone in on, you know, the events of early Rodney on who and warrior rather than on who. So would you be able to, you know, we, so the, the narrative, there's one narrative Twitter, right? So the narrative is that, you know, I'm more, we are already on who was like terrible person and you know, just, I went against the Ali Rodney on, on who and um, divisions happened. And that's why I think the, she is cases, right. The SUNY case is more like was taking a step back because you know, while we all wrote down on who had his own issues, he had an [inaudible] who had his own issues he had.

Tanzim: 00:47:55 And a lot of the scholars say that, you know, you get rewarded for your each to hat even though if it's from a sincere place, that sort of stuff. But um, that's more coming from the scholars. Right. So those are the opinions of our scholars and we sort of taken on board. But in terms of a historical sort of point of view, would you be able to shed some light on that event in particular because it would be interesting to gather thoughts and even how you would come to conclusions or how scholars would come to conclusions about in regards to what makes like what exactly happened? Cause I heard the sources aren't the strongest either. I think that this is probably the most complex of things that you're going to have to answer. I'd love love to, yeah, just even scratch the surface would be really good.

Hassam: 00:48:39 Right. So, um, I'll start off with a quick story. Um, I had a new professor when I was doing my undergraduate degree. This was an introduction to Islamic history, sort of introductory class. And I had a professor and, um, he was teaching this class and he was a Muslim. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, there's obviously non Muslims in their class. There's there, so neon Sheol, Muslims in the class. Um, it's, it's sort of a, a mix as it is in universities. And, um, he was a, you know, because he was discussing early Islamic history, he had to at least do one, uh, you know, um, lecture on this particular, uh, topic of this early Islamic history. And, you know, um, it's, it's thrown around in the room. The bomb was not thrown around because it was very introductory and, and we'd be surprised, you know, a lot of people, um, uh, you know, we see these discussions on Twitter and other places and very heated discussion.

Hassam: 00:49:39 And I'll admit to you, when I was, uh, you know, I have close a, she are friends and grew up together. And when we were very young, we used to like, you know, even as teenagers like go back and forth with these very, in hindsight, it's like that was the biggest waste of my time. And so nonsensical because I didn't know what I was talking about and neither did he. And yet we were having these heated conversations, right? Um, and we're still good friends, but I think so with the professor at the end of the class and during the class, you could notice and it was visibly others looking around. He was confusing some of the people in the class, he was sweating, right? And it wasn't a climate controlled room and everything like that, but he is sweating. And at the end of the class when it's done, he's actually wiping his brow and wiping the sweat off his face. And he said, you know, you guys might noticed,

Speaker 5: 00:50:28 um, this is not just as a Muslim, regardless of, you know, there's this idea that historians have to be objective. But this word objectivity is so problematic because nobody is ever truly objective. We all have certain values and beliefs and principles that we stand by, regardless of what the information presented to us is. Right. Um, we will have to try to be fair, but whether we can actually ever really be objective, whether we try or not is a separate question altogether. And he said, you know, for me, I'm an academic, I taught you from an academic perspective, but this is secret history. This isn't just history for me. This is sacred history. And for many of the people in this room, this is sacred history, right? So when we're talking about this particular, um, question, and I think the reason why there's so much heated debate on it and why passions are so high whenever this topic comes up, um, like you said is probably the most difficult question I'll have to ask, you know, discussing this podcast.

Hassam: 00:51:28 Um, it is because it's sacred history for all of the different, um, sort of sides, for lack of a better term, who were involved right now coming to the actual question from a historical perspective. Um, I think in this case, um, most historians, whether they are, um, you know, more traditionally, uh, trained like Islamic scholars who specialize in history, like for example, in Canada, here we have, uh, [inaudible], um, who did a very, I thought it was an incredible series of lectures, you know, nearly I think eight hours of lectures just on this particular topic on the question that we asked. So we have those scholars and then obviously the academic historian, some of them are Muslim, some of them are non Muslim. So you have these three broad categories, um, more or less, they all go back to the same sort of sources, right? They'll all go back to the, um, such as a 30 hot tub buddy and some of these more, uh, recognize and authoritative sources of early Islamic history, right?

Hassam: 00:52:37 Like [inaudible], Wendy high some of these books. And so you'll find that the narrative itself of the events, what event led to what and what happened when et Cetera is very similar across the three categories, right? Um, but when it comes to interpretation and explanation, that's when the differences occur, right? Between the three groups. So how do you, this particular event happen? How do you interpret it? Right? And obviously for the Islamic scholars, the interpretation focuses on how do you, uh, take the relevant lessons, the moral lessons, right. Something you can apply to your own life from this particular situation. So there's obviously an entire to go into

Hassam: 00:53:26 their, you know, the battle of, uh, I mean starts, I think that we took precursor to that starts right during the life of the profits of the law. We send them. What was the relationship of the profit with these particular people involved, such as, um, Emam earlier the allot one who was actually seeding are out of the allot wine. What was the particular relationship, um, as well as the other personalities such as Amato, even yesod let the last one for example. Um, and moving forward, how did you know the entire is sort of narrative about what happened at [inaudible] immediately after the profits of the law, whether he was an passed away and what happened after that? Um, during the, you know, uh, the NAFA of a Aboubacar and Omar or the Allahu one whom, um, and say, you know, it's man and so you'd the one home, right?

Hassam: 00:54:15 It's a very, very broad topic, but we have to trace the history that far back. So when we get to the [inaudible] of, you know, a mom and you know, not your loved one who, um, what has to be established is that we are not in a position nor should be, want to be in a position to make judgements about people. Right? I think for Muslims, and I'm, I'm assuming I'm speaking particularly to a Muslim audience, whether they are Shia or whether they are Sunni, because I have had those heated debates with my friends as I mentioned. I think what the key thing to keep in mind is that could take, do you feel relevant lessons from them, right? True. Take them from trusted, nuanced scholars. And this is something that each of us has to make our decision about and we can't claim to be ignorant, right?

Hassam: 00:55:06 We can tell when a person is really pushing the narrative. None of us are, you know, that stupid that we will it co or I at least I hope nobody considers themselves as stupid because I would assume nobody is, um, that they're just going to take what somebody tells them, even from the member and not sort of interrogate it and try to understand it and try to implement it into their own lives. So whether you are so new, whether you are shy, engaged with the info information that you are being exposed to, um, from the traditional scholars, um, and work with that and keep a focus on what you know, lessons you are going to draw. Because for, you know, for historians it's a different question about providing clarity, right? And who was, who was right, per se, right? For Muslims, I think it's a slightly different question because we know that justice, um, has already been served that allows justice. There's no escape from it. So whoever deserve whatever they deserved a level, take care of it, right? Um, if that process is not already underway, allow, are, and them, regardless of the individual we're thinking about here. Right? So for us it's more about the lessons we can draw and how we can apply them. If the only lesson you can draw is that you to hate a particular

Speaker 5: 00:56:24 group, you have to hate a particular person. You have to spend the rest of your life cursing this person and cursing that person or only defending this person and only singing praises about this person without actually recognizing that they were a human being and human beings can make mistakes and we should learn from them. Then if those are the only sort of set of things that we can draw from, then the problem isn't in the history, then the problem is in our interpretation at that point, I think there's no point for us to go into further questions of what happened because we are not using that history for the right purpose anyways. Right? And oftentimes you'll find historians, uh, sometimes jump on that facts. So there's one book I will call out by Leslie Hazel or particular historian where it's written in a very, um, in narrative form, right?

Speaker 5: 00:57:10 It's written as like a, this epic story. And in fact, she, the subtitle of the book is the epic story of [inaudible] Split. Anytime a historian sort of uses epic in their title, that should be a sort of alarm bell because they're jumping off of this idea that people are very passionate. The people who are going to read this on both sides of the debate or multiple sides of the discussion are very passionate about this topic and they're already coming with passion. So let me try to play with that, pull some strings, make it epic and write in a particular way that this happened and that happened and this unbelievable thing happened. I think we should stay clear of all of that. Um, for that sacred history. Rely on your traditional Islamic scholars unless you actually want to pursue it academically, that's a different conversation for the average person, I think that's not really a priority.

Speaker 5: 00:58:02 Um, and if there's a priority, like please get in touch with me or historians you trust and have that conversation with us. Um, but I feel like for the average Muslim who is just seeking clarity, look at your scholars, look at what other scholars have said, compare contrast, do your due diligence and uh, pray to a lot to give you clarity about our secret history so we can learn their relevant lessons and then trust that a law has already, uh, established justice in the cases of the people who have already passed away and we can move forward seeing what is best for our particular context. What does, whether I'm Shira, whether I'm SUNY, what does the Muslim community as a whole and what does the world as a whole need from me today? What are the lessons I can draw from this history that I will apply to that situation? And if there are no sort of positive, inspiring, um, constructive lessons, then uh, there's really no further conversation, at least from where I stand to be hot in this, uh, situation. Yeah. Yeah.

Rafael: 00:59:02 Fair enough. I think that's a good starting point for people to understand. The kind of approach that we should have to these topics that you mentioned, the difference between Western, how there's western commentators and western historians, and then there's also Muslim commentators and Muslim historians. And I think that's something that especially you mentioned specific of kind of, um, how, how would you describe it? Trying to create a fitness almost or a drama out of Islamic history to portray it as this, you know, this glorious Hollywood film. But I want to ask you about western historians and their view and their, their portrayal of Islam. Uh, I've done a little bit of work on studying orientalist readings of Islamic history, uh, particularly, and I wonder what your thoughts were. I mean, we, we see things written about the Ottomans. Um, for example, a lot is emphasized on their, on their persecution of minorities.

Rafael: 00:59:57 We see a lot written in India and the subcontinent, particularly about emperors, like, uh, old Rung Zip. And then we, this goes all the way back throughout Islamic history, uh, to, as you mentioned, the Muslim civil wars. And even back further to the Caliphs. So do you think that there's a kind of agenda by some western historians to, uh, create these kinds of negative images to render these negative images of Muslim, uh, figures throughout history and Islamic history? Um, do you think it's a concerted effort? Do you think that it's, why is this the case? I guess, why, why have, have these renderings come out of the West? Do you think the Muslims are kind of trying to paper over the cracks of their own floors, for example? Um, do you think that the Ottomans were as a lot of western scholars claim, um, particularly harsh and discriminatory? Or is that, yeah, just an orientalist kind of portrayal and, and the same goes for all wrongs urban. And the kind of a point you mentioned before about the epic schism.

Speaker 5: 01:01:05 Right. Um, so this is a very, very important question. So I'm glad we came to it. Um, I think, uh, again there's a lot of variation, right? So I think generally, um, historians who are actively involved in a project to sort of, um, display and essentially lies Islam and then display it in a very, um, uh, you know, a narrow sort of minded way. Um, there are certainly historians and people, you know, pseudo historian than people who claim to do that. Um, or sorry, people who, um, do do that. Um, and they make their claim in the fact that, um, they are trained historians, et Cetera. Right? So a good example is, um, Daniel Pipes, right? And I'm not sure if many people in Australia or other parts have heard of Daniel pipes. Um, he is one of the world's leading Islamophobes. I mean that the things this person publishes are, um, really like, like atrocious content.

Speaker 5: 01:02:09 And you would wonder why anyone would take him seriously. But if someone were not exposed to what his current politics are and how he speaks about Muslims and the community and how really ugly his discussions are and his perspective is, and they just went back into the sources. Daniel pipes when he initially did his phd and he's done up to a phd in, I believe, Middle Eastern history. Um, he went back and if you go back enough into the 1980s and you just, uh, encounter his academic work, you would take him seriously as a historian, right? Because, and I will admit, I have read that work and it is good historical research that he did about Islamic history. But, um, and so for example, the same goes for, um, you know, Bernard Lewis, who was very famous historian and obviously had some very, uh, essentially rising orientalist views.

Speaker 5: 01:03:03 And later in his life, you know, he did come on the media and say things trying to justify the Iraq war, et cetera. And he used his position as an academic to involve himself in that discussion and then say those particularly, you know, very nasty things, but at the same time, can we completely, you know, uh, ignore his research. I think he made enormous contributions as a researcher to different topics in Islamic history. Right? So the point I'm trying to make is if someone were to, um, not realize the particular, uh, perspective, the particular ideology within which, uh, the person is producing their research, um, then, and if they just look at the research that person, that historian can then use the fact that people have that approach, um, and then exploited and do things like just try to justify the Iraq war. Right. But on a very broader level, I think, um, for a long time.

Speaker 5: 01:04:01 And this question comes back to what we said a bit earlier about objectivity, about can you truly be objective? Can, as a historian, can you really just stay true to the facts and not insert and not influence and shape whatever work you are producing, whatever research or producing, uh, through your own particular biases and your own inclinations and your own experiences. Right. And I think, like we said earlier, there is no such achievable goal as objectivity. You can try to be fair, you can try to present multiple sides of the argument and um, den give your own sort of recommendation about which argument seems to be most reasonable and most accurate. But the claim that I am representing history as it happened, I am true to the facts that these kinds of things you can't really claim to do. Right? So I think for a long time in the Eurocentric context, so I'm talking about Europe and I'm talking about, um, you know, North America and Australia and some of the other, uh, places that were colonized by Europeans, which has many plays.

Speaker 5: 01:05:09 So, so this also includes many, um, universities, um, in parts of what we referred to as the Islamic world where professors and others do have these orientalist perspectives. But this [inaudible] of Islam, this fear of Islam, you know, this ignorance and the fear attached to it about what Muslims are, they are exotic. They are different, they are special. It's essentially dehumanizing, right? They not recognizing Muslims as Muslims are human, like everyone else with a particular worldview. There they are just like Christians are just like Jews and Buddhists and Hindus and Sikhs and Shamanists and everything else. Right? But essentially Muslims in particular and also some of the other peoples in the east such as the Hindus. The Hindus also get a lot of um, you know, orientalist commentary about them. Right? Um, and many other groups do as well. This has how, you know, for a long time, over centuries it has just developed, um, as a sort of, uh, cultural, um, you know, environment within which these scholars are born within which they grow up.

Speaker 5: 01:06:14 The books they read when they initially start learning, right? The language that they're taught to use and universities, et cetera. So it just becomes a cycle that goes on and on. One generation of professors teaches the next generation of professors. So for example, even the university, I go to a University of Toronto, they have departments of history of near and Middle Eastern civilizations. You know, it's recognized as one of the leading universities in North America for anybody who wants to learn about Islam or Islamic history or the Middle East. And I have professors who are Muslim and they have gone in, uh, into the academy, right? They are teaching at this university and they are telling us there are classes about how difficult it is to shift away. You know, even when over lunch meetings, casual, the casual conversation, how difficult it is because at the end of the day, who are the senior professors, who are the agenda setters, who are the gatekeepers of these history departments of these Islamic studies departments.

Speaker 5: 01:07:16 Generally they are old white men who are awfully privileged and they inherited their positions from other old white privileged men. And it's the same perspective that nobody challenges because they're all coming from a particular background and with particular similar experiences to each other. Now that being said, I'll say two more things. Um, first thing is that I think this is, we should still, uh, those of us who are trying to shift away and step away from that essentially rising orientalist perspective, we should still make an effort to, uh, engage with the research. You know, we can't cause the baby out with the bath water as the expression goes. Right. You still want to engage with their research, you still want to take whatever is beneficial and useful from it. You don't want to inherit the perspective. So what that means is when you're doing the engaging, you just have to be extremely careful.

Speaker 5: 01:08:11 Why is this person using this particular word, this particular language? How have they structured their paper or structured their book? Who are they acknowledging, right? What sources are here, what sources are missing? So it's a lot more work, but I think we can still draw a great deal of benefit from the work even if people who are, uh, coming from an orientalist perspective. And secondly, I think the bottom line is of this entire discussion is that Muslims themselves, um, have to first of all make sure they're not just, uh, uh, first of all they have to make sure that um, and they are thinking critically enough to not absorb this, uh, orientalist perspective themselves. And then they have to also go into the academy, right? So there is my Muslim professor at the University of Toronto, he is in that space. He is recognize you has done a lot of work to get to a certain position.

Speaker 5: 01:09:03 And from there he's able to challenge more effectively than all of us who are sitting at a distance. Right? And the same goes for like when we blame the media, when we blame the same goes for the academy for academics, right? For academia. You have to get involved in the process and make sure that in the process of getting involved, you don't lose sight of your own perspective and just end up, you know, swallowing whatever is spoonfed but push back from within. And we have to join the academy. And for those who are committed to that, I think it's a, uh, there needs to be support network from the broader Muslim community. This is something we should encourage as a community, um, for the sake of preserving our identity because these are the kinds of tropes. These are the kinds of narratives. If you go back to the raw material of what informs Islamophobia, which is why I joined the McCain Institute, because they want to respond to this through research, through academic production, which is why I wrote the papers, right? And I do research because we have to respond to Islamophobia and that Islamophobia causes real threats. Muslims face real threats. There is violence, right? There are wars that are started, this horrific, um, damage that is done. And it significant part of that does lead back to these Orient Colis perspectives and tropes. And we have to do whatever is necessary to challenge those, um, within that space.

Rafael: 01:10:29 I think. Yeah, just to sum it up, I agree with everything you said. I think it's, if anyone talking in a historical sense starts a sentence with Muslims, did Islam did, with very few exceptions, I'd shut my brain off at that point because Muslims have often been in a great deal of disagreement as to what they kind of political ventures they ought to be pursuing. And, uh, the, the idea that, that there's a monolith in Islamic history is honestly one of the most absurd ideas, uh, at least politically I'm talking not, not religiously. Um, but the idea that we all have the same kind of political ends, ah, that the Muslim empires were somehow one you United force.

Tanzim: 01:11:14 I mean these are just [inaudible] and you see this language from, from trained academics and you just, you think, how, how did they get there? Absolutely. It's like a, you're similar to, for example, I know the topics bit, you know, controversial and Islamic perspective, but you know, feminism, like people talk about feminism, like it's a monolith by few delve a bit deeper. You know, there's black feminists that actually hate the white middle class feminists and it's like, who you're gonna, they're like on the opposite spectrums, but there they call themselves feminists. It's like the way, you can't just say feminism is Xyz, it's with anything. You can't say Muslims, Xyz. And like you've been saying, everything is more complex than it seems and you're dealing with human beings and we can't even explain our own actions half the time. And you're here trying to explain entire like millions or even billions of people and their collective psychology.

Tanzim: 01:12:10 I do have a question in that the, because in you know, when the orientees look at Muslim sources and and sort of, you know, break it down and write their own papers and what not they shoot. That's really weird is that for example, we'll hone in on the seer, the Ciero, we know the most of the material content that's written is by Eben is hoc and who pretty much even he sham made it into a more, you know, concise version so everyone can sort of have access to it. But those are the, literally the only two sources that we have aren't, I think like we don't have Ebony's hopper. We have pretty much even his sham. And then you have the orientalist that kind of Co get to radical views like very different views to then the orthodox Muslim views that we have in the tradition.

Tanzim: 01:12:59 Right. So in our own orients us, look at our work, they get a code, totally different views. But the thing is, they're looking at the same sources of are as us. And even if you look at the western academics in the western institutions, they're not going to open, you know, even he shams work in software, they're going to open up Montgomery what or people like that, if that makes sense. So it's a bit weird isn't it? Like I find a bit dishonest because it's like trying to say that these western academics did all the work. Um, they were looking at things objectively because you know, they're, they're western and they're not gonna have, you know, sympathy with the religion or the tradition, but they don't point out the fact that they're, they have to by default look at the primary source text, which is, you know, even his hoc, even his shams. So what, that's what I'm a bit confused about, but I would like to get your thoughts about just this whole idea. She did a paper on Patricia Crohn's biography of the profit or like a discussion. Yeah, I actually did a paper on that and I think one of the things that I was confused about, it's the same, she actually addresses even in his hall and she addresses that as a week kind of rendering in this year. But, but one that she didn't do. I

Rafael: 01:14:12 don't know about that personally. I don't know. Maybe you'd be able to shed some light on that. Uh, but for me personally, it was the fact that she discredited all Hadith's scholarship ever without acknowledging the fact that Muslims themselves have quite rigorous and I think very interesting ways of rendering, um, kind of Islamic like the Sierra and the authentic if you want to. It's not like we just Jonathan ACB, it's not like we just, everything is, uh, anything that could be a hadith. We're just going to chuck it in the collection. Yeah, sure. Perhaps there are a couple of hadith that we classified as, sorry, uh, that aren't, it's very possible. But to say that Muslims, every single had Ethan, our Corpus is pretty much a fabrication to me is just one of the most, yeah, it's an absurd claim by oriental scholars. So we'd like to get your thoughts on that. Just everything we've said. I don't know if it's a question.

Hassam: 01:15:14 Um, well to unpack I think is definitely, um, a, a bit disingenuous, uh, I think is a word. Um, what a lot of these callers, uh, turn up, um, being when they're involved in these kinds of projects. Um, okay. When it comes to the question of, uh, sources in particular, I believe there is a, uh, shift, right? So the profession of history, um, you know, just tracing the history of the profession itself really is only about, you know, like you could say 130, 140 years old when history, um, as we historians were referring to I should say, their tradition that they follow. Um, which is, is this tradition that emerged in Europe in the mid 19th century. That is what they say when history became professionalized and is, went through several stages since then. Um, but since the 1960s and, uh, you know, the time afterwards, there has been a sort of, um, literary turn, right.

Hassam: 01:16:20 And there's always been this bias towards, um, the written right and contemporary written, especially written at the time of the event that is being described. Right. But at the same time, um, I think, uh, in recent years, you know, very recently, once again, there was a shift, um, there is a shift from that, uh, the, from the literary turn, from that emphasis on the literature to again, broadening the sources of history. Right? So in more, I mean, Patricia crone is a bit of a dated example. Uh, if you look at some of the more recent works, um, scholars, uh, we'll still have to address this question in their introductions about why they use Heidi sources for, to, you know, inform their work, et Cetera, why they went into those sources. Um, despite previous scholars, for example, Patricia Crone, um, did not want to engage with these sources.

Hassam: 01:17:16 And the reason, and I think it's a very reasonable conclusion that I just took them very long to arrive at is well, you know, even if it's a very important question that even if the f you know, um, let's suppose that these particular sources are not completely reliable or accurate. These had these books, you know, these arguments that these books were compiled like 300 years after the profits of the law who they will send them. And you know, as most of many of the Sierra books were also compiled at least a few decades right after him, et cetera. So how can we rely on these books? There are all these arguments, but one thing that's come up, which I think is very interesting, I don't know how it will play out in the long run, is the fact that some scholars argue that even if these historical sources aren't historically, um, completely accurate, the fact that they inform the decisions and the lives of more than 1.5 billion of the world's people mean that we should still look at them and interrogate them and try to shape our research around them.

Hassam: 01:18:31 And at the very least, not toss them completely out the window. Right? So that's one perspective. And then the other perspective is that, um, we can just use these original sources, um, sort of broaden out our research so we can, you know, just brought in the research so you have access to more resources, right? And then you can draw upon multiple, um, sort of, uh, sources of information and try to piece together. You can't claim it's 100% accurate, but then again, nobody ever can, you know, even if somebody were to write a book about something that happened a week ago, right, in February, 2019, no historian could make a claim that their perspective, what the information they're presenting is 100% accurate and reliable because how do you know, right? How can you have possibly interrogated every single source of information that is available? And you might not even know there are other sources of information that are also available, but you don't even know about them.

Hassam: 01:19:32 So that's last week. I mean, forget about 1400 years ago. Right? So there are these, um, the, the fact that that had become an established fact that we can't rely on Sierra books, can't rely on Hadith's et Cetera, can't rely on the authenticity of any of these things has slowly been challenged because people are still interested in the fact that there are so many Muslims and Islam is such a powerful force both in the present world as well as throughout history. How can we possibly just completely ignore the original sources that these people turn back to and that these people, um, use as a reference point. We can't just completely ignore them, right? We have to engage with them in some way. Now coming to that realization that they had to engage with them in some way, it has broadened the horizons a bit. And then as well as, you know, emphasis on the histories of other people.

Hassam: 01:20:24 So, um, apart from Islamic history, for example, pre-modern African history was often the same because these are oral cultures, oral societies, they pass down their knowledge, their traditions, their history orally, you know, through their generations, many of them. Right? Again, I don't mean to essentially eyes here, but it is quite common in many African societies that this is the way things are done. Does that mean that all the pre prehistoric, I mean, sorry pre modern African history should be ignored because we don't have the, the written sources of that were contemporary to the events that they described. Well, yes you could say that, but then what are you then you're done. The field is closed, then the discussion is over. Right. And the scholars do want to keep up the discussion so they have to eventually tap into these things and oral history, um, you know, non uh, literary sources. Um, increasingly, you know, yes. Recent years when I went to university and study history, we had some of these discussions and the fee, the, you know, the field of vision about what we can rely on as a source is definitely, um, broadening and how it plays out in the long term. Um, with, you know, effect on the field of Islamic history. Um, you know, time will tell,

Tanzim: 01:21:38 oh, Mashallah. Yeah, that's an interesting perspective about the whole fact that people have all the scholars have to look at the primary source texts because it dictates most of, you know, how Muslims live in the current day and age. It's like divinity sort of playing out. Like it's something to Econ shake off the divine, understands them and Muslims actions. You have to understand that hedef whether it's you consider it historically valid or not, it's essential. Yeah. So I think their definition comes kind of becomes narrow cause they're trying to define it in a way where you can kind of shake off the fact that, you know, the Hadith, uh, literature isn't vulnerable thing learner. I think you can just agree with this. Uh, well maybe not, but most contemporary scholars don't disagree with. They actually say that the coriander is the most authentic source on the history of early Islam.

Tanzim: 01:22:34 That, that, that very few, even revisionist orientals criticize the authenticity of the Koran. Clean those like the Topkapi one, they try to refute [inaudible] they, they carbon dated to around six 50, six 40. So they can't really criticize, um, the grant and even, yeah, I remember Patricia Crone saying that, um, the most authentic saas on Elliot Slam was actually the Korean and it's only really like Christian apologists who, um, raised the, that the Quran is not [inaudible] like authentic. Um, so that's interesting that, that they see, they just say that you can't really understand the Quran, like the Quran can't be understood though the, the versus over there actually preserved.

Hassam: 01:23:20 Right. It's a very, it's a very, um, um, broad discussion and, and many things, um, I think are changing, uh, currently, you know, the whole, um, circulation of, and this is beyond his slalom and beyond history and just in general what we see around us, what we rely on as sources of information, you know, everything. I think something to keep in mind is how interrelated the things we encounter on a day to day basis. Um, at the end of the day, it's all still the flow of information, where information comes from, how it is processed, where it ends up, what is the feedback loop, etc. So when it comes to such things as, as fake news as, um, digital media technologies as you know, like for example, this podcast that we're on right now, um, to future historians at 10 or 10, you know, a hundred years down the road, um, is this and authentic source of, um, you know, an of whatever is, is it a good reflection of what's happening in the world around us today about what is the state of the field of Islamic history in the year 20, 19, etc.

Hassam: 01:24:29 So I think there's a lot more questioning and, and uh, broadening again of, um, what is history and how we approach it and engage with it and learn from it. Right. Just a flow of information. So it's a very interesting time to sort of step back and try to pay attention and see how things play out and change over the longterm because I'm very hopeful that there will be a lot of change. Um, certainly and hopefully for the better I should say, because you never know. It could get worse as well.

Tanzim: 01:25:03 SubhanAllah. I think a, we'll might have to wrap up soon. But because Rafael is going to slave away to the capitalist system soon. So,

Hassam: 01:25:11 okay. That's his way of saying I'm going to work. I shall we all,

Tanzim: 01:25:19 SubhanAllah. We usually ask this question to our, when we do remember to all our guests and I think it's a pretty, it's my favorite question to be honest and a gain traction online as well. People love the question, but it will be interesting to hear your thoughts cause you know, you're the historian. So if there were three people in history that you wanted to chill within a cave cause you know, boys in the cave, um, who would they be? It could be anyone that it can be non Muslim. I uh, um, yeah, it's a few rules. I'm no profits because you know, everyone's going to pick profits and on the Sahaba what is the Shim? They're already there too, so we don't, you know, it's not disrespectful, but you can pick like three other people in history.

Hassam: 01:25:58 Well, you know, um, you know, you asking me because a, I'm a historian and you might think might make it easier, but it actually makes it enormously difficult. Right? Just being aware of all these, all these people that I would love to meet. And I always joke with my friends. I'm like, I hope most of the interesting people in history make it to agenda and sort of wise so we can all have, you know, the discussions that I'd love to have with them. Um, if I had to pick a three, I would definitely, uh, uh, Solario Dean, I would definitely be one of them. Um, I think, um, even Holden would be one of them. Um, and uh, it would be the third one. Um, probably I'm going to, I'm going to say like, like even rushed for example. And this is like one of those, you know, in the hall of fame speech when they thank everyone and then they say whoever I forgot to. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's like one of those moments I was like, I'm sorry to whoever finger I would actually, I just kinda think of them right now. Right?

Tanzim: 01:26:56 Yeah. If in Chawla you get to that they're going to be waiting there with their arms folded. Like you read it, you read so many of my books and yeah, you couldn't think of

Hassam: 01:27:05 inshallah. And I think one more thing that I think just to say in closing is that everything we discuss in podcast, I'm hoping it's assumed but um, it's, it's food for thought. Right. And, and I'd love feedback if there's a way you guys can communicate. Any feedback that comes in back to me and, and a I'd love to further any of the topics, any of the questions we discussed we could discuss so much more. So hopefully this opens up more conversations and definitely is whatever we say is not, you know, the ideal authoritative or final say on anything. Great.

Tanzim: 01:27:37 Yeah. That's why we started the podcast is to get the ideas out there cause it kind of makes people think we sort of fed at times any one narrative when it comes to certain subject matters. But we do want to open, you know, expand your brain cells a bit and get different ideas and thoughts and find new arguments and better audience and get exposed to the right people. So, um, I think that's what you did as well. We asked you in know we went like all around the shop part. I think people gained a lot of insights into different subject matters, history, you know, Koran, Islam, history of Islam specifically. And it's about making people aware about those ideas and concepts that exist and we should be proud of our dean cause we embody it. But at the same time, not just on a ritualistic sense but also on a proper academic discourse. Um, sort of sense. But regardless of the hair, um, Hassan for coming on boys in the cave, it was really a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed it. Hope you enjoyed it as well.

Hassam: 01:28:36 I really did. Thank you guys. A does. I'll go look Aaron to you as well. And uh, I hope, uh, it does spark some more interesting informative conversation than Charla Inshallah.

Tanzim: 01:28:47 And if people wanted to check out your staff, um, where can they visit you? Um, not your address but like,

Hassam: 01:28:56 but mean someone is not putting, willing to put in that effort. I'm perfectly happy to accommodate. Um, but uh, I do live in very far away live in Canada so we're in the middle of nowhere. Um, but uh, I think the best place a online is probably my blog, so www.ihistory.co not.com [inaudible] dot com which is the best way to sort of reach me with emails and also just check out some of the work that I've done.

Tanzim: 01:29:28 Okay. In shaa Allah, I'll put the links up. All your social media is, oh, cause I know you use Twitter as well. So I'll put all those links in shaa Allah. So from our listeners, thank you for giving us your attention. If you have any questions or comments, feel free to email us at [email protected] or find us on Facebook and you can follow our journey through Instagram. We're available on Spotify, soundcloud, stitcher, you name it podcast pocket costs. If you have android, you can, there's different podcasts, apps you can use. So you know, you were on youtube as well. iTunes, we're on pretty much everything, so definitely, um, if you wanna try out, listen to us on different platforms, you definitely can. And he can also leave us a five star rating on iTunes. That greatly helps us and you can support us on patreon. You know, alhamdullilah, we've improved a lot of our production and we actually have huge plans in the makings. Um, we're doing bit by bit by where she got some big ideas coming up and we want to put it into action and we currently do it through your support inshallah. So check out patreon.com/boysinthecave. And so for my special guest Hassam, Rafael and myself, we share the best. This is Tanzim signing up assalamualaykum.

Episode 43 - Ex-Muslims, Hellfire & The Mu'tazila | Asadullah Ali Al-Andalusi

6 juni 2019 | 152 min

Episode 42 - From The Scriptures To The Cosmos | Mustafa Omar

21 maj 2019 | 69 min

Exposing Boys In The Cave

16 maj 2019 | 58 min

Episode 41 - Ramy: Representation vs. Reality | Tareq Tamr

4 maj 2019 | 110 min

Episode 40 - The Natural System | Shaykh Hassan Elsetohy

26 april 2019 | 40 min

Episode 39 - From The Dawah To The DMs | Monika Sarker

8 april 2019 | 93 min

Christchurch: The Media's Post-Mortem | Ryma Tchier

31 mars 2019 | 127 min

Christchurch Shootings: The Far-Right, Racism & Power | Dr. Yassir Morsi [Video Episode]

19 mars 2019 | 43 min

Christchurch Shootings: The Role of the Government & Media | Uthman Badar

17 mars 2019 | 49 min

Episode 38 - Prose & Cons | Sadi Saifuddin

9 mars 2019 | 125 min

Episode 37 - Kings & Khilafas | Shaykh Omar Baloch

23 februari 2019 | 101 min

Episode 36 - Unlocking The Self | Justin Parrott

9 februari 2019 | 101 min

Episode 35 - The Selfish Praise | Mohamed Hoblos

26 januari 2019 | 56 min

Episode 34 - The Digital Ummah | Imran Chowdhury & Shihab Hamid

29 december 2018 | 78 min

Episode 33 - A Visionary's Blueprint | Peter Gould

15 december 2018 | 71 min

Episode 32 - HijabiBengaliSisters In The Cave | Round Table feat. Monika Sarker

2 december 2018 | 102 min

Episode 31 - Evolution of Theory | Subboor Ahmad

17 november 2018 | 102 min

Episode 30 - Ummah In Focus | Dilly Hussain

3 november 2018 | 172 min

Episode 28 - The Maydaan Archer | Ahmed Karat

7 oktober 2018 | 71 min

Episode 27 - A Realist's Manifesto | Dr. Mohamed Ghilan

22 september 2018 | 77 min

Dr. Ghilan returns back home to the Cave! We delve into veganism, what is true reality, how rationality and science alone cannot lead to real Truth, why Allah created Hell-fire, and the state of the Muslim world in today’s day and age.

Dr. Ghilan is a neuroscientist, Islamic lecturer, YouTuber, podcaster, writer and is currently studying Medicine at The University of Queensland.

Check out our video of this episode on YouTube!

Hosts : Tanzim, Rafael & Josh

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Check out our website - boysinthecave.com

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Dr Ghilan’s Online Visibility:

AndalusOnline.org - Join the Andalus Book Club!

Support Dr Ghilan on his patreon. https://www.patreon.com/MohamedGhilan

Search for "Mohamed Ghilan" in iTunes and subscribe to his podcast.

Twitter: @MohamedGhilan

Dr. Mohamed Ghilan is a Canadian Muslim originally born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia to parents from Sudanese and Yemeni backgrounds. He attended high school after immigrating to Canada in Vancouver, British Columbia. Eventually, Mohamed moved to Victoria where he obtained a B.Sc. with a major in microbiology (honours) and a minor in business administration.

In 2007, Mohamed began his full-time studies in the Islamic Tradition after having made connections with several Muslim scholars. He has been consistently travelling over the past years to spend intensive extended periods studying various aspects of the Islamic sciences relating to Theology and Creed, Jurisprudence, Hadith, Foundational Principles (Usool), Arabic, Poetry, spiritual purification, and Qur’anic sciences.

Mohamed has previously given lectures on the biography of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, Fundamentalism in Islam, Islam and science, the message of Islam, Jesus in the Qur’an, in addition to others. He has also taught an introductory course on Islamic Jurisprudence according to the Maliki School as well as an introductory course on Islamic Theology (‘Aqeedah).

In 2015, Mohamed earned a PhD in neuroscience at the University of Victoria, where he studied synaptic plasticity in Huntington’s disease, as well as the effects and molecular mechanisms of stress on the brain in Fragile X syndrome. He hopes his research can eventually be used to develop new therapies can be used to assist individual with movement disorders or intellectual disabilities.

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[11:00] Introducing Dr Mohamed Ghilan

[12:30] Dr Ghilan’s time after touching down in Sydney

[14:00] Some Sahaba didn’t slaughter meat on Eid-ul-Adha

[14:47] Dr Mohamed Ghilan’s article on Veganism

[15:00] Separation of the legal from the ethical when it comes to slaughtering meat in Islam.

[16:30] Taking on the attributes of what we eat

[18:00] The Prophet PBUH’s relationship with animals and meat

[21:30] As a Muslim how do you respond to an Atheist who says there is no hidden meaning to anything in regards to events that play out in life?

[26:00] Nature of quality and quantity

[29:00] Nature of knowledge being bound by time, space and science being only an instrumentalising tool.

[31:00] Truth based on experiential knowledge.

[36:00] Religious people are the worst salespeople

[36:30] Mind is powerful that it can rationalise something that we already don’t believe in.

[37:23] Essence of rationality, rationality can be welded to different ends, can rationality be purely be used to find Truth?

[40:00] Why is there so much hype of science in the modern world and the nature of technology.

[48:40] Why did Allah create the universe when he already knew only a few people would be Believers and go Jannah whereas the rest will be going to Jahannam? Doesn’t that mean he is unjust?

[56:00] How should Muslims engage with the society, civic, political system?

[1:06:00] Muslims need to be more creative in regards to how they approach the world.

Episode 26 - Low Voltage | The Mad Mamluks

10 september 2018 | 74 min

Episode 25 - Millennial Muslims | Suved Siddiqui

25 augusti 2018 | 105 min

It is tough being a student of knowledge whilst dealing with the modern world. So we talk to Ustadh Suved about how to seek ilm in today’s day and age, juggling the 9-5 work hustle in the process, differences between the traditional Islamic way of seeking knowledge vs. the university scene and how a layman Muslim can gain more rewards than The Sahaba.

Suved studies Commerce at University of Sydney, is a teacher of Hadith sciences. He is prominent in the Sydney MSA circles giving talks and lectures at Universities. Most importantly he is a dear friend of ours.

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Donate to our patreon account:

patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Suved's Online Visibility:

https://www.facebook.com/Suved.Siddiqui

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Shownotes

[2:00] The Work Life hustle

[5:00] How did Suved come to the point of studying traditional Islam?

[6:15] Introducing Suved

[10:30] Suved’s journey about learning biographies of the Scholars

[15:20] Is the term “aalim” given to people more easily in this day and age compared to the past?

[19:50] How can you proper study Islamic knowledge whilst doing so in the Modern day and age alongside the 9-5 work life hustle for e.g.

[26:30] Is the best way to teach Islamic knowledge through the traditional way (i.e. knee to knee), and if so how can we implement this style on a wider scale in today’s day and age?

[31:22] Is Islamic knowledge decreasing due to the university style of knowledge being transmitted?

[33:39] How would we encourage people to get into Islamic tradition?

[39:00] Where should you go to acquaint yourself with the Islamic tradition?

[43:53] Is it permissible for a Ilm seeker to put a pause on seeking knowledge as life gets hectic?

[50:57] How big of a role is rote memorisation in studying Islamic sciences?

[55:55] If you want to be studying the Deen overseas in what ways can we fund it to make it happen?

[1:02:00] The tough lives of a shaykh

[1:08:00] availability of resources online which makes more people intrigued about studying the deen

[1:12:00] Can a lay Muslim get immense rewards compared to a scholar of Islam? Our experiences being layman Muslim in the workplace.

[1:39:00] What do we aim to achieve as a goal after we have acquired the Islamic knowledge we need?

Episode 24 - Dynamics of Power & Oppression | Yassir Morsi

11 augusti 2018 | 81 min

How we look at the world can be broken into power dynamics. We talk with Yassir Morsi about racism, power structures, feminism and oppression.

Yassir Morsi's main area of research is the critical analysis of contemporary racism and Islamophobia. He is a regular contributor to The Guardian. He was a lecturer at RMIT University in Melbourne and now he is currently lecturer at La Trobe University. His recent book which he released is titled 'Radical Skin, Moderate Masks'.

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/ Instagram – @boysinthecave

Donate to our patreon account:

patreon.com/boysinthecave -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yassir Morsi's Online Visibility: Twitter: @YMorsi --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shownotes

[2:00] Introduction of Yassir Morsi

[2:48] Boys In The Caves’ experience with Yassir

[3:30] Muslim community adapting and having conversations

[5:00] Tanzim’s experience with Yassir Morsi’s ideas on Samarqand Facebook page and being exposed to different ideas when getting into the Deen.

[8:15] Why do you think racism is such a central issue for muslims to be aware of and understand thoroughly?

[11:45] In Yassir’s book ‘Radical Skin, Moderate Masks’ the terms ‘apollonian’ and the ‘dionysian’, the two different elements to how we see racism, are discussed.

Dionysian is the brute force of the europeans subjugating the rest of the world, and apollonian is how they present themselves as beyond racism now where all it is good, when it's dyonisian violence that created the societies we live in today.

[14:30] Racism is modernity. The condition of the world is racism.

[15:50] How does racism trickle down to Muslims? Is that what is called Islamophobia?

[17:00] Why do you think race is given such importance to uncover the oppressions of the world? E.g. people may say economic reasons may the reason for certain oppressions in the world.

[19:35] In regards to power isn’t expansionist Jihad by Muslims be the same as colonialism by the Europeans?

[22:20] Some people try to make all violence throughout history the same e.g. comparing Ottomans to the Europeans who colonised lands.

[24:25] People feeding into the identity politics.

[26:20] Dynamics of violence in a Muslim context.

[30:00] The effects of poorly run countries leading to worser conditions for people.

[31:30] Being short sighted and blaming countries current climate on themselves rather than looking at the structures that were put in place.

[36:30] Joe Rogan talking about inbreeding amongst Muslims being the reason for ISIS coming about.

[37:30] Muslims falling back on “racism not being part of the religion”

[42:00] Making statements about how Islam gave rights to women but not actually doing anything in practice to live up to that statement.

[51:10] To what extent can Muslim brothers use theories external to Islam?

[56:20] Just because concepts stem from the West does it mean we can’t use it in Islam?

[1:00:00] Double standards when it comes to policing Brothers and then the sisters in Islam

[1:03:57] Differentiating people who speak about feminism like Daniel H with people like Yassir Morsi.

[1:14:50] We hear all these terms such as conservative muslim, fundamental muslim, or moderate/good muslim used by non-muslims to frame us. What are the implications of these terms - like we know we shouldn’t use them, because that’s how they define us.

[1:16:57] If you could hang out with three people, who influenced you during your studies, in a Cave who would it be?

Episode 23 - Unity In Division | Shaykh Omar El-Banna

28 juli 2018 | 66 min

It seems like political events cause huge divisions in the ummah. So we talk with Shaykh Omar El-Banna about how we can reconcile political events. He also clarifies the whole takfir incident that happened with him.

Shaykh Omar completed a Bachelor of Science majoring in Engineering, attained in ijazah in teaching the Quran, studied for 8 years under shaykhs in Egypt, and also graduated from Al-Azhar University in Cairo from the Faculty of Shariah, Islamic Jurisprudence.

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

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Shaykh Omar's Online Visibility:

https://www.facebook.com/Sheikh-Omar-El-Banna-212684098797820/

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Shownotes

[1:00] Intro to Shaykh Omar's life

[4:00] Shaykh Omar taking Al-Azhar University to court

[8:55] The nature of Al-Azhar in regards to be controlled by the government

[12:00] How should Muslims react to Muslim political divisions?

[17:00] How do we reconcile groups with ideological difference like HT and Muslim Brotherhood?

[22:00] Does finding the Haqq in regards to politics boil down to sincerity?

[27:00] Does each group have a “portion” of the straight path?

[28:00] Tanzim mentions an example of cultish behaviour due to being affiliated with a certain group.

[32:00] Can cultish behaviour be excused on the basis of “taqlid”?

[34:00] What should our actions be when we witness injustice by the government? Should we stay quiet and obey the state or rebel?

[35:25] Are scholars perhaps justifying injustice by the government?

[40:00] Tanzim witnessing the different Islamic groups as a youth and the different ideologies that they bring to the table.

[45:00] Describing the incident where a person takfired Shaykh Omar

[56:00] If you had to hang with 3 people from history who would it be?

Episode 22 - Aesthetic Islamic | Dr. Samir Mahmoud

15 juli 2018 | 84 min

Dr. Samir Mahmoud and the team discuss variety of topics related to Islamic architecture, aesthetics, the modern world and philosophy.

Dr. Samir Mahmoud, PhD. is a graduate of the University of Cambridge (2012) in Islamic Studies. He is currently Assistant Professor of Architectural History & Theory at the Lebanese American University (LAU). Between 2013-2016 he was Visiting Assistant Professor of Architecture at the American University of Beirut (AUB). He was Postdoctoral Fellow at the Khalili Centre for Research in Art & Material Culture, University of Oxford (2012-2013) and Agha Khan Postdoctoral Fellow at MIT (2012).

Dr Samir is also director of "The Living Turath Initiative." Living Turath (Living Tradition in English) is an educational initiative that enables Muslims to discover the wisdom of the Islamic tradition today. Its mission is to educate Muslims on the continued relevance and value of traditional Islamic perspectives and practices for their day-to-day lives. To this end, we organize educational workshops, lectures, & retreats.

Dr Samir's interests vary widely and include: art & architecture (Islamic and Western), philosophy (Islamic, Neoplatonism, and Continental), Islamic studies, urban & landscape design, and psychology (particularly the dialogue between Islamic and Western ‘therapeutics of the soul’). He has lectured in the UK, Lebanon, & Australia.

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

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Dr Samir Mahmoud Online Visibility:

https://www.facebook.com/samir.mahmoudmerabi

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Shownotes

[6:40] Islam and Sci fi discuss ion – of the tradition of storytelling in east and west;

How to reconcile imagination and stories to Islam.

[18:00] Islamic Architecture

Philosophical cultural shifts

[23:00] Kant, philosophical traditional onwards, of modernity forgetting and rejecting history.

[25:00] What is architectural modernism – break with the past.

[34:00] – Architecture is not neutral – it impacts on your lifestyle, happiness – colours, streets, use of materials, size of spaces.

[36:00] – Late twentieth century becomes about how do we bring back what was lost – architecture theorists realise it has not been working.

The great transformation (book) - capitalism.

Before there was a higher ethics controlling the market, now it is the MARKET that creates those norms and codes and ethical values for us.

The challenges of modernity are unique; qualitatively different o all that has come before;

[38:30] Quranic discourse as universal

[40:00] impulse in Islam towards non- figurative art

Islam recognizes the truth of other traditions; other traditions not seen as entirely other.

Islam is not just a perspective amongst others; it encompasses all in one – this seen in its artistic impulse; a likewise universality in the abstract.

[46:30] No concrete image that could represent Islam

Islam did not obliterate other culture’s forms

Western culture had images at centre; in Islam patterns were central.

[51:00] Islam took pride in borrowing from other cultures; there was no need to enclose upon ourselves

Post-Mongol invasion – Islam rejuvenated and flourished.

[56:30] Anecdotes on Hayban Laksan story and encounter with Germans in Spain.

Last of the Mohicans – if we are able to communicate more effectively; by explaining our wisdom to others, instead of asking for our right

[1:00:00] - Hadith then Plato and Aristotle; scholars though the Greek had revelation, or through their own fitrah were able to discover their wisdoms

Islam brought into the 21st century by its fixation on patterns to convey; instead of image.

Islamic architecture in the present: Cambridge Muslim College in the UK.

Dome has become part of experience and meaning of what a mosque is – creating that continuity.

[1:12:00] Mosques become a nexus for identity. A garden as welcoming;

[1:15:00] Mystical geometry. Geometry as the realm behind the physical; instils a state of reverie.

More accurate representation of reality – the geometry than what we see in reality; what people now call virtual reality. Virtual means something beyond imagination.

No images dictated to you

Episode 21 - Recalibrating the Caliphate | Uthman Badar

30 juni 2018 | 91 min

In this episode, we discuss with Uthman Badar a variety of topics related to Islamic activism, political dimensions of Islam and Khilafa.

Uthman Badar is a writer, activist and PhD student of philosophy, and also a student of Arabic and Islam. He is member of Hizb ut-Tahrir in Australia.

Hosts: Tanzim

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

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Uthman Badar’s Online Visibility:

https://www.facebook.com/uthbadar/

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Shownotes

[0:00] Podcast - not affiliated with HT, we are talking about the perception of HT prevalent in the media; we have a negative image, of people with big beards - that is the stereotype we see.

Preaching something scary; in university scene we see the discussions and panels which are of great benefit, so we see that angle also of the hizbut tahrir personalities.

Wassim Doureihi video which went viral on ABC - boosted so much faith in our ability to control the narrative; the constant need to condemn; line of thinking made us realise many things .

Playing cricket with uthman; just a regular brother outside of his media personality.

Natural that people bring their own personalities and politics to discussion. The media gives us all of it in a negative light regarding HT, as such compelling people to stay away.

USYD talk - uthman badar form HT singled out as a radical figure in a negative light without raising any actual discussion.

We live in that society where conversation is skewed and not steered towards where it should be.

That’s sort of a natural consequence of living in this society; normative positions society hold which we have to fight against.

Having a debate about God is not too controversial, but about western foreign policy, it will be much more challenging to discuss that in this society - do we stay away or give it the justice it deserves, and what islam demands us to address of it.

[10:00] Is islam even part of the political realm?

Islamic society in sydney has several realms, of islam becoming about work on yourself, of islam coming to fruition through our internal struggle.

Those who try get by in society, doing the obligatory and not too much more.

And those who are more politically active and aware.

Many more nuances in how muslims go about this, in their particular ways of activism.

Different focus of other groups.

People can be engaged in various ways;

Whole idea of Khilafa - concept we probably haven’t heard of living in the West.

Are groups of islamic activism a cause of division? How can you claim something to help the whole ummah when the whole ummah is not on board with your vision?

Uthman: as long as those efforts are based in something sincere, then its not part of the problem - what is instead is that the vast majority of people don’t do much work, in this realm of trying to revive islam.

There is nothing much wrong with doing something but in different ways - what counts in the effort.

If someone is doing something beyond the personal obligation at a community level, then that is what is good. Collective effort is better. The condition of the ummah wont improve without collective effort.

So long as it is sincere and based in islam.

Problems exacerbated by the way different groups interact with each other.

Going further into the khilafa - what does it mean and how to go about it, and the history behind it.

What is it?

[18:00] Basically - the vehicle by which islam is implemented; it is not an additional thing for muslims, but the basis.

It is the way by which you implement islam completely;

The road to implement islam continues after the death of the prophet (saws).

The deen in its totality. Not about individuals - who can pray on their own.

Certain aspects that individuals can’t do - state processes, civil society, etc.

Vast area of islam you cannot do without such a state - the contracts in islam, vast majority cannot be done without khilafa - like how interest is haram; the individual cannot do anything about that at a society level unless it is implemented.

We live in a time when the dominant paradigms structured our living when we think on individual terms, atomistically, and many muslims have internalised that thinking; of fixing themselves and nothing else.

The social and political aspects of islam are considered an afterthought whereas in reality they are central.

Historically it was implemented for hundreds of years, over a thousand.

[22:00] Do we need to worry about khilafah in our context of comfortable western lives? Don’t we just pray and fast and we’re good?

Allah’s pleasure lies in us doing what he wants us to do - and this is how the prophet saws implemented islam.

Different contexts require different things for us - the type of test we have changes.

We are responsible for what we did or didn’t do in trying to strive for the khilafa.

Role to pass on - of enjoining good and forbidding evil.

We need to learn about our responsibilities here and expand our scope.

Learn about political system and strive for it.

[26:00] The abyssinian model - our situation in west is not like mecca or medina, but like abyssinia, where we practice only to the extent we can.

But that model is a footnote to the prophet’s life - not intended as a permanent state, so we can’t make an analogy between our situation and them

As people only migrated to abyssinia temporarily, to come back to mecca and carry on their Islam.

We can’t just consider our situation here in the West as here and doing our basic personal prayers and otherwise enjoying life.

Society’s systems and structures shape us - the colonial invasion of the muslim world.

[30:00] European bought ideas of secularism, liberalism - that have influenced us over time. When you migrate to the west its the same thing on steroids, because we are on their own turf. We can’t see anything otherwise

World structured differently , in how we think.

Liberalism discussion.

[35:00] Reformation, science, rationality as the starting point for our understanding of RELIGION now.

Religion as interior.

[40:00] religion fed to us as something that oppresses and limits progress. West sees itself as the only one capable of progress.

Religion as limiting everything - the perception.

The West Universalizes themselves. They read violence into religion.

[46:00] Isis discussion. ISIS makes the discussion more obscure as it is about American foreign policy.

[48:00] fulfilling conditions of Khilafa.

[51:00] Practicality of the Khilafa in a world dominated by western institutions and states. How can Khilafa fix the ills of the world system already in place?

We have to learn our best and understand - but we can’t assume all changes to be in our hands.

[57:00] How to we reconcile islamic punishments with this age?

Certain areas left for people to decide on themselves.

European punishments were also cruel not even 100 years ago

[1:00:00] Christians in their attempt to reconcile faiths with modern western science.

Responsibility to study this and realise the basis of our faith, the difference between science and scientism

[1:09:00] The liberal standard cannot be our criteria. Present islam in a way that gives people the best chance.

[1:15:00] Jizya and Zakat - jizya can be less than zakat; not unequal as people think it all is, unless you use a western lense.

Body of muslim statehood and power - to protect those muslims now who are being persecuted.

Needs leadership that is sincere and based in Islam.

[1:20:00] Khilafa in the modern day - is it possible, what does it require - material force and public opinions.

Episode 20 - Faith, Fame & FouseyTube | Kamal Saleh

17 juni 2018 | 69 min

Your passion for the faith is important when it comes to dawah. So we talk with the beloved Kamal Saleh in regards to his journey in the dawah scene via content creation, how he "blew up" online, the science behind making videos and also his journey with OnePath Network.

Kamal Saleh is a speaker, spoken word poet, director, editor and content creator for Talk Islam & OnePath Network.

Hosts : Tanzim & Josh

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Kamal Saleh’s online presence

https://www.facebook.com/kamalsalehkamal

Talk Islam

https://www.facebook.com/talkislam/

OnePath Network

https://www.facebook.com/OnePathNetwork/

Link for ‘Last Chance’ movie trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brt6H9MtD2c

‘Meaning of Life’ video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d16CpWp-ok

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[2:15] Tazim and Josh’s initial encounter with One Path. Tanzim falls off a cliff in dramatic fashion.

[5.55] Introduction to Kamal Saleh.

[8:30] Reasons for wanting to do media, MUMSA’s footprint and Kamal’s journey to Islamic content production.

[13:55] The benefits of the Muslim society on the individual.

[17:25] Kamal’s Youtube videos and the reception to his content.

[22:00] ‘Meaning of Life’- how and why Kamal did it and the impacts it has had on people.

[30:10] Jaclyn Glenn’s response to Kamal’s video and counter-responses and etiquette in Dawah.

[36:45] Kamal’s journey to America and his views on America.

[39:40] Keeping the ego in check with the newly found fame and doing things for the sake of Allah.

[45:25] Kamal on joining One Path and his current activities with One Path.

[47:30] Objectives of One Path and engaging with the audience and giving the audience something of benefit to take home.

[52:15] The impressive setup of One Path’s studio.

[54:10] Kamal discusses One Path’s movie, “The Last Chance”.

[1:01:55] On the history of Youtube user ‘lebo2196’.

[1:05:45] The importance of having a scholar/shaykh over your shoulder when you do what you are passionate at for the Ummah

Episode 19 - A Light In The Heart | Dr. Shadee Elmasry

2 juni 2018 | 96 min

In this bumper episode, Dr Shadee joins the team to discuss some essential issues. This includes the real role of tasawwuf and purification of the heart, the importance of a ‘street’ education, the state of academia, how to understand the world from an Islamic lens, and how to practically do dhikr.

Dr. Shadee Elmasry was born and raised in New Jersey and studied in the Muslim world in Fez, Hadramawt, Cairo, Makka, and Madina. He completed a Masters from The George Washington University in comparative religion, then a PhD from the University of London, SOAS on “Da’wa in the Works of Imam al-Haddad.”

Hosts : Tanzim & Josh

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Dr Shadee’s online presence

https://twitter.com/DrShadeeElmasry

https://www.facebook.com/DrShadeeElmasry/

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0:00 - Intro

1:00 - Upbringing and the importance of having passion and putting effort into the din

9:30 - The importance of knowledge; the superiority of the scholar over the worshipper. Discussion of how Muslims cannot just be ideologues; there has to be practical application so we are the complete package. Importance of ibadah, Quran, Tajweed etc.

22:00 - The sanad tradition allows Islam to be preserved and gives us something firm to act upon.

28:00 - Introduction. Dr Shadee talks about his journey coming out of academia and his ‘second education’ on the streets. The importance of knowing what’s affecting the people so you can be effective. The problems with a lot of modern academia; often it is disconnected and has no effect on the world. True knowledge is that which benefits the listener.

44:00 - Career discussions and Dr Shadee’s advice on STEM and the liberal arts.

46:30 - The framework we use to understand the world; materialist vs an Islamic framework. The Muslim considers both the asbaab (means) and their status with Allah. The way to think about and act in the face of oppression.

1:02:30 - Islamic conception of spirituality; not usually an escape from reality, but a preparation for it. The importance of remembrance of Allah and ways of doing it. Discussion on doubts, darkness and purification of the heart.

1:11:45: More on the heart and tasawwuf. Discussion on how to come to certainty and rational proofs. Importance of dhikr (remembrance) of Allah again. Practical ways to do dhikr. Importance how you deal with others and the link to your state in the grave.

1:24:15 - Brief discussion on Karamaat. Book reference: Sufis of Andalusia.

1:28:40 - If you were to sit in a cave with 3 people, who would you pick?

Episode 18 - From Atheism To Allah | Rafael Bruzzese

19 maj 2018 | 82 min

Time for an imaan boost during Ramadan! We bring on our beloved close friend Rafael to talk about his journey to Islam from Atheism, the insane experiences he had before converting and also the struggles he went through after converting.

Rafael Bruzzese is currently studying Teaching, majoring in English Literature at The University of Sydney. He was part of a 'Converts Panel' at the University of Sydney and very recently was part of a 'Ins and Outs of Islam' panel, which took place at the University of New South Wales.

Host - Tanzim & Josh

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Rafael Bruzzese's Online Presence

https://millennialmuslims.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/if-youre-muslim-why-are-you-white/

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[2:30] Other revert stories and different experiences

[8:15] Planting the seeds when giving dawah

[12:30] Rafael's upbringing and how his parents influenced him

[20:45] When Rafael first encountered Islam

[24:00] General perception of religion

[29:00] Rafael's initial experiences with Islam

[37:00] Objectification of women

[38:00] Rafael's experience of alcohol poisoning

[40:00] Rafael's encounter with a Muslim Turkish girl

[45:00] Rafael's Shahada

[47:00] How did Rafael gain certainty in Islam?

[51:00] Rafael's experiences and encounters after converting

[1:01:00] Where Rafael is currently at in regards to Islamic knowledge

[1:05:00] Orientalism & perspectives of history

[1:08:00] Rafael's encounters with particular Islamic groups

[1:16:00] Perennialism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy

Episode 17 - Deen, Damsel & Distress | The Salafi Feminist

5 maj 2018 | 63 min

Women in Islam is a big topic so we chat with The Salafi Feminist in regards to Muslim women issues that are prevalent in the Muslim community, how we should deal with it, compare our current situation with the Muslim women of The Prophet peace be upon him's time and how as a community we can solve the current issues.

The Salafi Feminist aka Zainab bint Younus is a Canadian Muslim woman who has been active in grassroots da'wah and writing about Islam and the Ummah for the last ten years. Her main focus is on gender relations, Muslim women in Islamic history, and combating misogyny in Muslim communities. She can be found posting regularly on her Facebook page (The Salafi Feminist) and her blog TheSalafiFeminist.blogspot.com

Host - Tanzim & Josh

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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The Salafi Feminist's Online Presence;

https://www.facebook.com/TheSalafiFeminist/

Twitter: @AnonyMousey

thesalafifeminist.blogspot.com

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Shownotes

[1:30] State of halal food places in Canada & differences between Canada and Australia

[6:30] Introducing The Salafi Feminist & her journey as a writer

[12:00] Why Zainab chose her moniker as The Salafi Feminist

[19:00] Using the term "feminism" to reclaim Muslim rights under Islam

[23:20] Stephen Hawkings and how some Muslims reacted to his death

[27:30] What are the exact struggles of Muslim women and what can we do to solve them?

[29:30] Are women issues only particular to a group of community of Muslims i.e. Arabs, Desis?

[33:30] Do women from other faith groups go through similar struggles that Muslim women go through?

[36:20] Is the struggles of what the Muslim women face in The West different to the struggles Muslim women face in other parts of the world?

[39:30] Comparing the freedom of the women of RasulAllah's time to the times of today

[48:00] How did Muslim women's "freedom" become limited in today's day and age?

[49:15] Patriarchy that exists in the Muslim community

[53:00] How should we look after our Muslim daughters?

Episode 16 - HELP! My Best Friend Is GAY (part 2) | Daniel Haqiqatjou

22 april 2018 | 44 min

Episode 15 – The Islamic Pursuit of Happiness | Karim Serageldin

7 april 2018 | 98 min

In this episode, we look at the relationship between Islam and psychology with Karim Serageldin. A wide variety of topics are explored including the problems with mainstream psychology, an Islamic conception of the self, depression, happiness, and the importance of one’s relationship with Allah.

Karim, the founder of Noor Human Consulting, has a BA in psychology & religion and an MA in east-west psychology with a specialization in spiritual counseling. He is a certified life and relationship coach with years of teaching and community outreach experience. He consults with leading scholars of Islam and is working on his own theory of Islamic psychology for Muslims in the west. Karim is also the Host of his own podcast show called ‘Coffee with Karim’!

Host - Tanzim

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

--------------

Karim’s online presence:

https://www.facebook.com/CoffeewKarim/

https://coffeewithkarim.com/

http://www.noorhumanconsulting.com

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1:30 Introduction and about Karim and his work

11:00 Mainstream psychology; issues with it and how it conceives the human compared to Islam. Materialist conception of the self. Problem of consciousness. Free will.

26:00 Religion and spirituality within mainstream psychology. Importance of Islamic understanding of the self.

33:00 Depression; what it is, and how it can be handled, and the Islamic approach.

45:40 Taking knowledge from all sources and the benefit of having multi dimensional knowledge and perspectives.

49:30 Importance of self-care; physically, mentally etc. Eating good food and relation to Islam

58:15 - More on depression and dealing with it. Is it enough to just do Islamic rituals. Importance of addressing deeper issues.

1:07:50 Discussion of those who seek happiness or well-being without regard to any moral constraints; ‘whatever makes you happy’ kind of thinking. Islam not about whatever makes you happy. How one can harm one’s one self.

1:15-50 - Happiness; it’s definition and how it isn’t a good goal to have.

1:21:00 - The importance of one’s relationship with Allah to achieving a good state. Islam being the foundation for everything.

1:25:50 - More on happiness and what kind of state we should be aiming for in this world. How often what we think is difficult leads to good.

1:30:05 If you could meet any 3 people, who would they be?

Episode 14 – Do You Even Love the Deen, Bro? | Ustadh Muhammad Al-Bizry

25 mars 2018 | 34 min

We look at the importance of the Prophet (pbuh) to us today and how we can build a connection with him. We also touch on the miracle of the Quran as well as Isra & Miraj and what we can learn from it.

Ustadh Muhammad Al-Bizry studied Islam locally before he travelled to Egypt to pursue further studies, particularly in the Arabic language. He possess a Bachelor of Arts in Applied Science, Sport & Exercise Science, a postgraduate degree in education, and is currently completing a Masters of Classical Arabic.

He is a well known daee and teacher in Sydney, teaching at various Islamic centres and colleges, specifically at Markaz Al-Imam Ahmad. He is also a qualified primary and secondary teacher and teaches at private Islamic schools in Sydney.

Hosts - Aquib & Tanzim

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Ustadh Muhammad Al Bizry’s Online Presence:

https://www.facebook.com/MuhammadAlBizryOfficial

Ustadh's Current Project. Muslim Kid Friendly TV Programs

http://one4kids.net/start/

https://www.facebook.com/one4kids/

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0:00 Introduction to Ustadh Muhammad Al-Bizry and the importance of being approachable

4:50 Importance of having a connection with the Prophet (pbuh) and how we can build this.

10:00 How love for the Prophet (pbuh) manifests and how to learn from the Seerah today

16:00 How we can increase our emaan through the Seerah and the Quran.

19:00 - The Miracle of the Quran and how we can witness it today

23:45 Isra and Miraj; the Night Journey and what we learn from it.

Episode 13 – Kickbacks, Catchups & DNMs | Internal

24 mars 2018 | 21 min

Episode 12 – The Love Potion | Shaykh Bilal Dannoun

10 mars 2018 | 57 min

We delve into the whole concept of love and Islam's position on true love, whilst talking about how the youth should approach marriage, the issues that husband and wife face in marriage and how to approach it.

Shaykh Bilal Dannoun has a degree in Languages majoring in Arabic and English. He has studied Classical Arabic under Sheikhs. He has done enormous amount of dawah work through conducting lectures and videos which are all online and you can check it out on Muslim Central.

He has delivered several intensive courses on Jurisprudence, Tajweed and various other Islamic sciences. He is also the co-founder of Al-Firdaus Quran College and is a Arabic and Quran reading instructor. But now he is very well known especially around Sydney as an Authorised Marriage Celebrant and Marriage Counsellor, aka The Love Doctor. counselling people on a daily basis through his office, online and social media.

Host - Tanzim & Josh

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Shaykh Bilal Dannoun's Online Presence;

https://www.facebook.com/bilaldannoun

Instagram: @bilaldannoun

Twitter: @bilaldannoun

http://www.muslimmarriagecelebrant.com.au/

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[0:00] Introduction

[3:00] Bilal Danoun’s routine and what he does

[7:30] The nature of love; how does it come about in a marriage?

[12:00] What is causing the high divorce rates amongst Muslim marriages. What is required to create and maintain a good marriage.

[19:00] More on what’s required to ensure a good marriage. The importance of your relationship with Allah and how it’s linked to your marital life. Other important things to consider.

[27:00] Is age just a number?

[31:30] Expectations set for young people before they can get married such as a degree, job etc. When should you get married. Considering the Western context and difficulties faced by young people.

[36:00] Dealing with issues related to parents.

[45:10] Expectations again. Importance of communicating expectations before hand.

[48:00] Extravagant marriages

[51:50] Intercultural marriages and the Shaykh’s experience with them

Episode 11 – HELP! My Best Friend Is GAY | Daniel Haqiqatjou

25 februari 2018 | 75 min

Daniel Haqiqatjou delves deep into the whole concept of being a “homosexual” that is coined in The West, the Islamic position of people who have same-sex desires, the effects of gay marriage being legalised within today’s society and also how to approach Muslims who have same-sex desires.

Daniel Haqiqatjou attended Harvard University where he studied Physics and Philosophy, has also completed a Masters degree in Philosophy, and has spoken at universities. His work has been featured in outlets such as The Washington Post, The Atlantic, CNN, Aljazeera, Public Discourse. He teaches as an adjunct faculty member at Respect Graduate School, and is also a contributor to the Muslim Debate Initiative, muslimskeptic.com, yaqeeninstitute.org, muslimmatters.org.

Host - Tanzim

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave

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Daniel Haqiqatjou’s Online Presence;

Website: muslimskeptic.org

Email – [email protected]

Twitter: @haqiqatjou

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/haqiqatjou/

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0:00 - Intro

5:50 - Reality of Muslim life in the US. Discussing the Trump administration compared to previous administrations, and the tactics of some government agencies.

14:30 - Same-sex desire; is it nature or nurture? Islam’s history of recognising same sex desire and fiqh surrounding it.

23:20 - Using our own Islamic vocab instead of the vocab from LGBT/Western thought. Questioning the idea of sexual orientation such as being ‘straight’ or ‘gay’, and how this shouldn’t form part of one’s identity.

31:10 - The negative effects on society of same-sex relations becoming accepted, and how everyone is affected. The social ills that can come of it. How Muslims are also affected by this. The importance of the family as an institution.

42:50 - Story of a child with multiple gay parents. The victims and negative consequences of same-sex relations. Islam's emphasis on importance of knowing one’s lineage, having kinship bonds.

50:10 - How Muslims navigate a society where same-sex relations are normalised; in public, in corporate life, MSAs, masjids etc. Maintaining an Islamic position.

55:30 - How can we help Muslims who are struggling with same sex desires, who want to be practicing Muslims? The services that exist and some solutions. Importance of using the correct language again.

1:03:20 - Importance of Muslims discussing this issue and conveying the Islamic position. Importance of how we must be careful when discussing the issue, and bringing our own Islamic concepts instead of taking Western concepts for granted.

Episode 10 – A Muslimah in Modernity | Nuriddeen Knight

10 februari 2018 | 92 min

We discuss with Nuriddeen Knight about the rise of feminism in The West, gender and family roles in traditional Islam, the issues of finding the right spouse in the modern world and women scholarship in Islam.

Ustadha Nuriddeen Knight completed an MA in Psychology from Colombia University, studied Islamic knowledge in Jordan including Islamic law, theology, spirituality and prophetic biography. She started nooralshadhili.com, has written the books ‘40 Hadith of ‘Aisha’ and Our Mother ‘Aisha: 40 Hadith Collection, also has her own blog bythefigandtheolive.com and has her own podcast called ‘In The Days of Noor’.

Host – Tanzim

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

Become a Patreon today! https://www.patreon.com/boysinthecave --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nuriddeen Knight’s Online Presence;

Website: nuriddeenknight.com

Blog: bythefigandtheolive.com

Email – [email protected]

Twitter: @nuriddeenknight @figandoliveblog

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Knight.Nuriddeen

Ustadha Nuriddeen Knight completed an MA in Psychology from Colombia University, studied Islamic knowledge in Jordan including Islamic law, theology, spirituality and prophetic biography. She started nooralshadhili.com, has written the books ‘40 Hadith of ‘Aisha’ and Our Mother ‘Aisha: 40 Hadith Collection, also has her own blog bythefigandtheolive.com and has her own podcast called ‘In The Days of Noor’.

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Show notes

[2:00] - Introduction to Ust. Nuriddeen Knight; her background, studies, living in Jordan

[10:45] - Feminism; whether all these online discussion have a point, the use of language, and the risks of debate.

[21:00] - How modern ideas about gender like patriarchy, equality etc stand in relation to Islam. Gender roles within Islam

[25:45] - The Western historical experience in relation to women vs the Muslim historical experience.

[29:18]: “Al-Muḥaddithāt: The Women Scholars in Islam” Sh Mohammad Akram Nadwi

[29:27]: “Muslim Women: A Biographical Dictionary” Aisha Bewley

[30:35] Navigating cultural Islam vs traditional Islam in relation to women, working out gender roles in the modern world. Importance of looking at fiqh and the historical experience of women.

[37:13] Gender roles; what roles women should take on; work, housework, etc.

[43:00] Marriage, divorce, and how gender is involved

[1:00:08] Perceived lack of female Islamic scholarship; is this the case, and if so, why? Relation to gender roles.

[1:24:00] Degradation of the home. The importance of home life vs public life.

Episode 9 – Sunnah Six Pack Shortcuts | Mahir Bhuiyan

27 januari 2018 | 50 min

We discuss with Mahir Bhuiyan the essence of keeping healthy, how it ties in with Islam, the positive and negatives of gym culture and the rise of steroid use.

Mahir Bhuiyan is a bodybuilder, has completed a Bachelors in Health Science, is currently studying Occupational Therapy.

Hosts – Tanzim and Joshua

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on: Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

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Mahir Bhuiyan’s Online Presence;

Email – [email protected]

Instagram: @mhb_31

Mahir Bhuiyan is a dear older brother who we have looked up to within the community. He is a bodybuilder and an avid gym-goer. He has completed a Bachelors in Health Science, and is currently studying Occupational Therapy.

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Shownotes

[2:05] – Who is Mahir Bhuiyan?

[3:10] – How long has Mahir been going to the gym and how did he get to where he is today?

[6:35] – What is the point of gym for you and why do you think other people in the society do it?

[8:00] – Discussion on the mentality/motivation for others to gym (wrong reasons?)

[11:05] – How did the popularisation of gym come about in the community here?

[12:32] – What does your gym routine look like?

[14:20] – Blessings of waking up for Fajr and starting your day early

[16:30] – Finding the religion in everything that you do

[17:45] – How big is Big Ramy? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamdouh_Elssbiay

[20:02] – What are the exercises that Mahir does specifically?

[21:28] – What does Mahir recommend for sisters who want to become fit and healthy?

[23:12] – Discussion about Islam’s connection to staying fit and healthy (Hadith: https://www.eaalim.com/download/index.php/blog/entry/what-is-the-islamic-stance-on-obesity.html)

[25:05] – “Sitting is the new Smoking” (Victoria Health: https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/the-dangers-of-sitting)

[25:35] – Commercialisation of health and fitness in the modern times

[26:41] – Fitness of the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. (Hadith: https://theislamicworkplace.com/2011/12/01/follow-the-sunna-of-the-prophet-s-how-exercise-benefits-the-brain-and-overall-performance/)

[28:15] – The dangers of becoming addicted or obsessed with everyday tasks such as gym

[28:55] – Moderation in Islam (Hadith: https://abuaminaelias.com/moderation-and-balance-in-islam/)

[31:40] – Importance of getting young children into sports, especially young girls

[34:45] – What is the current prevalence of steroid usage, specifically in the Muslim community?

[38:30] – The importance of patience in gym

[41:06] – Instagram world creating body image issues for girls

[43:45] – Prophet Muhammad’s Rural Spirituality Visits – Character Building

[44:40] – Environmental factors play the biggest role in shaping who you are

[46:36] – “When you’re healthy, you’re at your best”

[47:40] – Islam and physical activity (Hadith: http://www.sunnahsports.org.uk/reference.html)

Episode 8 – Fantasy Unchecked | Shaykh Wael Ibrahim

13 januari 2018 | 62 min

We discuss with Shaykh Wael about the nature and impact of pornography addiction, the root causes for addiction, and how we should help those suffering.

Shaykh Wael Ibrahim is an Islamic speaker, founder of MentorPlus, and author of a few books on pornography addiction.

Hosts – Aquib, and Joshua

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

Twitter - @boysinthecave

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Shaykh Wael’s Online Presence

Website – http://wael-ibrahim.com/

Email – [email protected]

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/WaelIbrahimHK/

Twitter: @WaelIbrahimHK

Shaykh Wael Ibrahim is an Islamic speaker, scholar, professional trainer & life coach. With a BA in Islamic Studies, he is also the Founder & Chairman of Serving Islam Team in Hong Kong. He has published a few books such as ‘Change’, and ‘Beat It: Fifty-Plus Shades of Hope’.

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Shownotes

[2:16] – How did Shaykh Wael get into researching and discussing pornography addiction?

[5:33] – Delving into the reasons why Muslims do not engage in discussion on pornography addiction in an open and frank manner

[9:29] – Emphasising the point of seeking professional help, or encouraging sufferers to get professional help to relieve themselves from addiction

[11:52] – Delving into the distinction between sin and addiction, and the nature of the addiction

[13:23] – Surah Saba, ayat 13 [https://quran.com/34/13]

[13:44] – Surah Ar-Ra’d, ayat 11 [https://quran.com/13/11]

[14:12] – Some root causes for pornography addiction

[24:07] – Some statistics underpinning the problem among Muslims

[27:41] – Continuing to explore root causes for pornography addiction

[35:06] – Specifics on how this cycle of addiction works

[38:56] – Delving more on the triggers for relapsing

[43:52] – The spiritual impacts on pornography addiction, transitioning into Islamic solutions

[48:53] – Hadith on Reliance from Sunan at-Tirmidhi 2344; Sahih (authentic) grade according to At-Tirmidhi

[51:00] – Surat Al-Mu’minun [https://quran.com/23]

[52:24] – Hadith from Sunan Ibn Majah; Vol. 3, Book 12, Hadith 2236

[53:15] – Disrupting the old habit of addiction with new healthy habits to prevent an addict from relapsing

[55:45] – Books published by Shaykh that are available for download or purchase

[57:04] – A few success stories of people breaking free from pornography addiction

Episode 7 – Orientalism | Abida Aura

31 december 2017 | 53 min

On this episode, we talk to Sr. Abida about Orientalism and the portrayal of Muslim women throughout history, as well as modern representations that affect Muslims.

Abida is a postgraduate student at the University of New South Wales, pursuing a Juris Doctorate degree. She previously occupied the Vice President position at UNSWMSA, the Muslim Students Association on her campus, and has been actively involved in several community initiatives. Her informed interests include sociology, philosophy, as well as the current state of the Ummah.

Hosts: Joshua, and Aquib

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

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Shownotes

[2:33] – The evolution of topics and discussions in the scene for Sydney Muslim Students Associations

[5:10] – What is Orientalism and why does it concern Muslims?

[8:14] – Charles Hamilton [Wael B. Hallaq (2009). Sharī'a: Theory, Practice, Transformations. Cambridge University Press (Kindle edition). pp. 374–376]

[9:09] – Snouck Hurgronje [Algadri, Hamid (1994). Dutch Policy Against Islam and Indonesians of Arab Descent in Indonesia]

[14:08] – How have Muslim women been used by certain discourses involving orientalism to further narratives against Islam?

[17:03] – How have these depictions, particularly the body and veil constructs, been portrayed in modern times?

[19:03] – In what ways are these representations used by media, policymakers, art, literature and in mainstream discourse?

[20:04] – https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/18/republican-voters-bomb-agrabah-disney-aladdin-donald-trump

[20:49] – http://reappropriate.co/2014/04/hey-air-france-your-orientalism-is-in-the-air/

[21:59] – Returning back to discussions on discourses using Orientalism to advance their views

[25:54] – Delving into how Orientalism affects Muslims in their practice of the Deen

[39:40] – What are the ways to reconstruct a better and lasting portrayal of Muslims?

Episode 6 – Reformation | Bradley Anthony Simmons

19 december 2017 | 64 min

Episode 5 – Manners Maketh Muslims | Internal

3 december 2017 | 42 min

Episode 4 – The Halal Hustle | Mazen Kourouche

19 november 2017 | 65 min

Episode 3 – Rohingya | Harun Harace

5 november 2017 | 43 min

Episode 2 – ‘Isms and Schisms | Dr. Mohamed Ghilan

21 oktober 2017 | 81 min

In this episode, we discuss with Dr. Ghilan a variety of topics within a narrow scope of theology such as philosophy, modern science, existence of God, materialism, and empiricism

Dr. Ghilan is a neuroscientist, Islamic lecturer, YouTuber, and podcaster.

Hosts: Aquib, Joshua, and Tanzim

Please email us your comments, feedback, and questions at: [email protected], and leave a review and 5-star rating on iTunes!

Follow us on:

Facebook – https://www.facebook.com/boysinthecave/

Instagram – @boysinthecave

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Dr Ghilan’s Online Visibility:

AndalusOnline.org - Join the Andalus Book Club!

Search for "Mohamed Ghilan" in iTunes and subscribe to his podcast.

Twitter: @MohamedGhilan

Dr. Mohamed Ghilan is a Canadian Muslim originally born in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia to parents from Sudanese and Yemeni backgrounds. He attended high school after immigrating to Canada in Vancouver, British Columbia. Eventually, Mohamed moved to Victoria where he obtained a B.Sc. with a major in microbiology (honours) and a minor in business administration.

In 2007, Mohamed began his full-time studies in the Islamic Tradition after having made connections with several Muslim scholars. He has been consistently travelling over the past years to spend intensive extended periods studying various aspects of the Islamic sciences relating to Theology and Creed, Jurisprudence, Hadith, Foundational Principles (Usool), Arabic, Poetry, spiritual purification, and Qur’anic sciences.

Mohamed has previously given lectures on the biography of the Prophet Muhammed peace be upon him, Fundamentalism in Islam, Islam and science, the message of Islam, Jesus in the Qur’an, in addition to others. He has also taught an introductory course on Islamic Jurisprudence according to the Maliki School as well as an introductory course on Islamic Theology (‘Aqeedah).

In 2015, Mohamed earned a PhD in neuroscience at the University of Victoria, where he studied synaptic plasticity in Huntington’s disease, as well as the effects and molecular mechanisms of stress on the brain in Fragile X syndrome. He hopes his research can eventually be used to develop new therapies can be used to assist individual with movement disorders or intellectual disabilities.

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Shownotes

[4:34] – Why is Dr. Ghilan pursuing medicine after completing a PhD?

[8:05] – Discussion between Peter Slezak and Mohamed Ghilan at UNSW (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhNdIIJ5o0w)

[8:26] – Observations on sectarianism

[10:24] – Ayats 31 and 32 of Surah Ar-Rum (https://quran.com/30/31-32)

[12:31] – Understanding the ideologies of Atheists

[15:55] – Hadith from Sunan Abu Dawud 4833; Sahih (authentic) grade according to An-Nawawi

[24:08] – Ayat 41 of Surah Ar-Rum (https://quran.com/30/41)

[25:12] – Touching on modernism, specifically utilitarianism and capitalism

[28:11] – Battle of Hunayn

[29:10] - Ayat 32 of Surah Al-A’raf (https://quran.com/7/32)

[31:10] – Exploration of science as a framework

[38:51] – Ayat 28 of Surah An-Najm (https://quran.com/7/32)

[54:12] – Ayat 43 of Surah Al-Furqan (https://quran.com/25/43)

[54:36] – Asch conformity experiment

[55:55] – Ayats 31-33 of Surah Saba (https://quran.com/34/31-33)

[57:52] – Exploration of philosophy, and how to engage with the themes of modernism as Muslims

[1:00:32] – Hadith from Sunan At-Tirmidhi 2687; Hasan (fair) grade according to As-Suyuti

[1:00:52] – Islam in Liberalism by Joseph Massad

[1:14:51] – Hadith from Sahih Al-Albani, Book 14, Hadith 273

[1:16:12] – How do we reconcile modernism with Islam as a means of having a standard of truth?

Episode 1 - Foundations | Internal

8 oktober 2017 | 46 min

Episode 0 - Enter The Chamber | Internal

1 oktober 2017 | 34 min

Boys In The Cave

Reviving Islamic Discourse.

Om podden

Avsnitt

Episode 124 - Is the Special Envoy Combating Islamophobia? | Dr. Yassir Morsi

Episode 123 - Do Muslim Votes Matter? | Dr. Yassir Morsi

Episode 122 - Tunnels, Takbirs & Triumphs: The Untold Stories of Syria’s Liberation | Kaleem Bullivant

Episode 121 - Hikmah Medicine, Trauma Therapy & Holistic Spiritual Healing | Dr. Mazen Atassi

Episode 120 - New Age Spirituality, Masculinity & Religious Obsessive Compulsive Disorder | Shaykh Abdullah Anik Misra

Episode 119 - Mohammed Hijab, Andrew Tate, Dawah Bro Simps, Racism, Far-Right & UK Riots | Kaleem Bullivant

Episode 118 - Language of Resistance, Communal Islam & The Nation of Islam | Brother Ali

Episode 117 - Comprehensive Analysis of the Bangladesh Student Quota Protests

Episode 116 - Escaping Capitalist Mysticism & The Pitfalls of Western Psychology | Seyed Jamaluddin Miri

Episode 115 - Spirituality, Artistry & Islamic Calligraphy | Ustadh Rizwan Ahmed Khan

Episode 114 - Sufis & Politics of the Mughal Empire | Professor Richard M. Eaton

Episode 113 - Metaphysical Reality & Quranic Truths | Mohammed Isaaq

Episode 112 - Palestine, Narratives & Alliances | Dr. Uthman Badar

Episode 111 - Palestine, Oppression & Navigating Political Discourse | Dr. Yassir Morsi

Episode 110 - Salvation, Martin Luther & Christian Theology | Abdullah Kunde

Episode 109 - Path of Empathy, Anger & Unconscious Behaviours | Tanzim

Episode 108 - Political Figures of Hindustan, Decolonising the Mind & Reflections | Tanzim, Josh & Rafael

Episode 107 - Is Decolonisation Possible Without Love? Healing In A Secular World | Mohamad Tabbaa

Episode 106 - Jihad, Caravan Raids & The Jews of Medina | Professor Joel Hayward

Episode 105 - The Legacy of The Prophet Muhammad ﷺ | Shaykh Mohammad Elshinawy

Episode 104 - Is Islam Political & Spiritual? | Tanzim & Rafael

Episode 103 - Why Do Good People Go To Hell? | Tanzim & Rafael

Episode 102 - China, Authoritarianism & The Uyghurs | Arslan Hidayat

Episode 101 - The Cultural Imperative of Islam, The Metaphysical Dimension & The Trad Bros | Roundtable

Episode 100 - Issues with Mohammed Hijab - Jordan Peterson Podcast & Khabibian Dawah | Roundtable

Episode 99 - Impacts of Activism, Representation in Media & Politics of Sport | Ryma Tchier

Episode 98 - Ibn Hazm, The Unconscious Mind & Love | Rafael & Tanzim

Episode 97 - Islamic Bioethics, Gene Editing & Linguistics | Heraa Hashmi

Episode 96 - Post-9/11 World, War on Terror & Travelling Home | Dr. Yassir Morsi

Episode 95 - Narcissism, Healing & Red Flags | Naureen Ahmed

Episode 94 - Political Future for Islam, Biblical Scriptures, William Lane Craig & The Mujassima | Abdullah Kunde

Episode 93 - The Akh-Right, LGBTQ & Liberalism | Asadullah Ali

Episode 92 - Capitalism, Structural Racism & Political Reading of The Seerah | Tanzim & Josh

Episode 91 - Systemic Oppression, Colonisation & Neo-Traditionalism | Nadeem Dawud

Episode 90 - Masculinity, Feminism & Racism | Rafael & Tanzim

Episode 89 - Miracles, Awliya & Tariqas | Danish Qasim

Episode 88 - Spirituality, Rationality & Reason | Shaykh Abdurraheem Green

Episode 87 - Fifty Shades of Disbelief | Abdulah Hamimi

Episode 86 - Socio-Political Realities, Postmodernism & Hizb ut-Tahrir | Dr. Yassir Morsi

Episode 85 – Human Rights, Morality & Modern Legal Systems | Dr. Salim Farrar

Episode 84 - From Bodybuilding Champion To Da'ee | Ahmad Wadi

Episode 83 - Mind Palace, Imagination & The Power of The Mind | Tansel Ali

Episode 82 - Islam In West Africa, Racism & Arabisation of Islam | Mustafa Briggs

Episode 81 - Ghadir Khumm, The Battle of Karbala & Madkhalism | Bro Hajji

Episode 80 - Muslim Political Consciousness, Political Engagement & Christianity | Abdullah Kunde

Episode 79 - Struggles, Faith & Path To Success | Hazem El Masri

Episode 78 - Revisionist History, Academia & Political Stances | Dr. Jonathan A.C. Brown

Episode 77 - Activism, Racism & Malcolm X | Momodou Taal

Episode 76 - A Western Islam, Political Ideals & Feminism | Aisha Hasan & Sarah Bellal

Episode 75 - Philosophy of Fiqh, Psychology & Astrology | Dr. Asim Yusuf

Episode 74 - Representation, Media & Feminism | Sana Saeed

Episode 73 - Generation Next: Revival of the Youth | Zain Siddiqi

Episode 72 - Greek Philosophy, Ibn Arabi & Psychoanalysis | Dr. Samir Mahmoud

Episode 71 - Reclaiming Islamic Poetry | Sharghzadeh & Zirrar

Episode 70 - Atheism, God's Plan & Embracing Suffering | Abdulah Hamimi

Episode 69 - Gay Identity, Oppression & Human Rights | Mohamad Tabbaa

Episode 68 - Racism, Culture & Comedy | Aamer Rahman

Episode 67 - Decolonisation & The Alt-Right | Hizer Ali Mir

Episode 66 - Holistic Health & The Four Temperaments | Naturopath Naimah

Episode 65 - Orientalism, Modernity & Muhammad Iqbal | Saaleh Baseer

Episode 64 - Perspectives, Frameworks & The Universals | Mohammed Isaaq

Episode 63 - Love, Family & Marriage | Shaykh Yahya Ibrahim

Episode 62 - Hudud, Jinn & Rape In Sharia Law | Dr. Jonathan Brown

Episode 61 - The Future for Islam, Racism & Activism | Dr. Shadee Elmasry

Episode 60 - The Atheist Playbook | Subboor Ahmad

Episode 59 - From The Revisionists To The Rulers | Adnan Rashid

Episode 58 - The Jinn, The Unseen World & The End of Times | Shaykh Omar Baloch

Episode 57 - Islam & Africa | Mohammed Abdullah Artan

Episode 56 - The Natural Prophetic Way | Shaykh Hassan Elsetohy & Geoff Lawton

Episode 55 - Mission Impossible: Uniting The Ummah | Shaykh Osta

Episode 54 - Homosexuality, Feminism & Colonialism | Mohamad Tabbaa

Episode 53 - The Spiritual Dimension | Ahmed Karat

Episode 52 - The Epic Clash! Racism, Modernity & The Left-Right Divide | Dr. Yassir Morsi vs. Murtaza Siddiqui

Episode 51 – Identity & Secularism | Ismail Royer

Episode 50 – Oppression, Secularism & Modernity | Uthman Badar

Episode 49 - The Muslim Tech CEO | Ashik Ahmed