Fraser & Nabeel explore what it means to build great products in this new world of AI.
Two former founders, now VCs, have an off-the-cuff conversation with friends about the new AI products that are worth trying, emerging patterns, and how founders are navigating a world that’s changing every week.
Fraser is the former Head of Product at OpenAI, where he managed the teams that shipped ChatGPT and DALL-E, and is now an investor at Spark Capital. Nabeel is a former founder and CEO, now an investor at Spark, and has served on the boards of Discord, Postmates, Cruise, Descript, and Adept.
It’s like your weekly dinner party on what’s happening in artificial intelligence.
The podcast Hallway Chat is created by Fraser Kelton & Nabeel Hyatt. The podcast and the artwork on this page are embedded on this page using the public podcast feed (RSS).
Nabeel and Fraser debrief on GDC and the opportunities for innovation beyond the conservative approaches in an industry going through a funk. They touch on the experiences at the recent GDC, including the growth of AI in gaming and the recurring challenges faced by developers. The discussion also covers the competitive landscape of AI startups, the importance of stacking wins, and the nuanced differences between building games and software products. Notably, they highlight the intriguing possibility of a vibrant game creation ecosystem driven by new model capabilities and the compelling idea of making game creation itself a multiplayer experience.
We have evals for AI models, what about AI products? Today, Nabeel and Fraser talk about building computer games through vibe coding, and just when we might see a breakout success of an AI-built game. Through this discussion, they also explore what building a platform that curates weird AI experiments might look like, particularly one that builders could use for discovery and inspiration.
Today, Nabeel and Fraser tackle the questions they've been asking internally. What level of improvement would it take to disrupt an incumbent product? They also explore what advantages second movers have in product markets, the emerging importance of reasoning models and computer use products, and what makes certain legacy markets ripe for AI reinvention.
Nabeel and Fraser sit down for a round-table discussion with Chris Pedregal, founder and CEO of Granola, an AI note taking app, to discuss Granola’s evolution and product philosophy. Their conversation touches on the challenges of developing user-friendly AI products, and how to balance that with product vision. They also talk about what it’s like being a second-time founder, as well as if and when AI wearables will gain widespread adoption.
What lessons will we take from 2024's AI products into next year? How better to reflect on advancements in the field of AI over this past year than to ask AI itself? Today, Fraser and Nabeel use AI models like ChatGPT, Claude, and o1 to first look back and see if products and innovations of 2023 lived up to their hype in 2024. And to look at the show’s year in review, Nabeel puts these AI models to the test by feeding them episode transcripts and seeing which model produces a usable summary. Together, they also dive into the effectiveness of Google Gemini’s Deep Research tool, the rise of agentic computing in 2024, and whether products ever fundamentally change or just get constantly re-invented.
Everywhere you turn, companies have shoved AI features into their products that no one is using. Today, Fraser and Nabeel ask each other—are there any AI features that you’re actually using in older products? Plus: How kids will be shaped using AI products daily. What would a fully unstructured Slack look like. AI email habits. Do we think incumbents will catch up with AI integrations? PREM framework for startup prioritization. Is this startups vs incumbents, or just startups vs the big llms?
Open format Q&A this week. Fraser and Nabeel explore AI data privacy, the ethics of copying features, and maintaining innovation. They discuss enterprise data challenges, the importance of a strong product identity, and strategies for early-stage startups during fundraising season.
Join Fraser, Nabeel, and special guest Anil from Meter as they dive into the innovation behind Meter Command. Meter's new interface has been called the "future of software" and a far ranging interview talks about the problem of designing product around personas, how command interfaces bridge the gap between CLI and dashboards, the importance of owning your tech stack, how your data is your product roadmap, and the orientation to long term thinking while still staying on the cutting edge.
Links
* See a demo of Meter Command
* There's a lot of fine work from Bret Victor on visualization and interfaces, but here's one to get you started
* Geoffrey Litt's Malleable SW in the age of LLMs
* Hunter Walk's post on OKRs post his stint at Google
How would you design an AI product differently for a hobbyist vs prosumer vs professional? Using MidJourney as a case study in the passion economy, they delve into how AI tools can help build communities and support semi-professional creators. They explore how these tools can democratize creativity, the role of art vs craft, the role of grit in skill building, cheating vs copiloting, the missing middle of the creative markets, and more. They also touch on the broader implications of AI in different creative fields from music, writing and podcasts. It's an exploration of how AI can help users maintain creative flow and the underserved opportunity for AI to help unleash the hobbyist.
00:00 Intro
00:52 AI in Creative Endeavors
01:58 Market Expansion
03:01 The underexplored customer in AI
08:23 Finding other AI hobbiest opportunities
11:31 If they AI made it, are we building skill?
13:36 Difference between art and craft
14:40 Homework Helpers vs Writing Copilots
16:07 Hobbiests are not quite the creator economy
17:47 Product for hobbists
21:03 The missing middle of creative markets
26:42 AI's potential in the education of craft
Fraser and Nabeel start by retcon'ing their earlier "maybe we should stop talking about models" and reflecting on the importance of adapting product strategy based how much disruption is happening in your market. The episode highlights the release of Claude Artifacts by Anthropic, and comparing it to other AI product innovations. They also nerd out on the Xbloom coffee machine and a robotic mop. Lastly, Fraser asks about how to navigate when a founder gets introduced to the wrong partner at a VC firm.
Fraser and Nabeel dive into the evolving landscape of AI note-taking apps, focusing on a new product, Granola. They discuss Granola's unique approach of "enhancing your thought" instead of "thinking for you." They also explore: applying this idea to other categories, the influence of LLMs on UX, and the need for more experimental user workflows to unlock AI. They also discuss the challenges and dynamics of startup funding, the significance of capital in achieving market success, and how dynamics of AI team building are changing.
Is it still worth it to discuss models when discussing startups? Nabeel and Fraser discuss how that may be the wrong question to ask in the current landscape, and why customer-centric questions and user experience should be the basis of product experience. Later, they deliberate who might come out on top in the “horse race” for AI product dominance, and whether it will come from a large, established company, or if the frontier of capabilities belongs to small innovators.
What is the extent of autonomous coding engineer Devin’s ability to generate real, functional applications with little to no help? Nabeel and Fraser dive into the buzz about Cognition’s ‘Devin’, what makes it different, and the transformative potential of AI in software engineering, particularly focusing on autonomous coding software. Later, they get into the innovator's dilemma and the lessons the .com era can lend to this new time in AI.
(00:00) Intro
(01:23) The buzz about Cognition’s Devin
(07:44) What makes Devin different?
(12:19) Tolerance for time
(16:07) The interface of the future
(22:19) Innovating around the incumbent’s advantage
(25:30) Cutting edge products mean new user bases
(29:52) Netscape was the Open AI of the Mobile Revolution
(33:42) Optimism as the engine of capitalism
(37:56) The model is not the product
This week is a discussion of the points of differentiation vs commodification in various AI models. Including how these points might change over time, and might change between language, image, and video models. Then Fraser pivots to orienting around jobs to be done in AI, and how the various models have a huge gap between being capable of doing something, and doing it well.
We then talk about Claude 3, the nature of benchmarking, and the rapid dropping LLM prices. Lastly, we cover a startup subject, debating the merits of SAFE (Simple Agreement for Future Equity) vs. priced equity rounds in early-stage funding.
Links
What is Hallway Chat anyway
Josh Miller, Founder and CEO of The Browser Co, joins this week. We loved the experience with Arc Search, a new AI-enabled mobile search experience, we decided to talk to Josh directly about how it all came together.
Topics
* How Arc Search came to be spawned out of basically a side project
* The core value of "we don't know"
* How the key AI feature 'Browse for Me' was not the initial concept, but came to be added last minute
* Josh's initial skepticism about AI, up until just a few months ago, and what flipped him
* Three strategies for AI integration
* The perils of leading with consumer hooks, how that derailed Browser Co, and focusing on solving problems
* Should cost be a key consideration when developing AI?
Hope you enjoy us mixing it up this week by talking with someone wrestling with building in the space. Drop us a line on twitter at @nabeel and @fraser with what you want to hear more (or less) of.
Two former founders, now VCs, play with AI products and see where that leads...
Fraser and Nabeel discuss the differences between horizontal disruption and vertical market disruption and the patterns of the phases of this disruption in the mobile age. From Adaptation, to Evolution, and eventually Revolution. Next, they dive into AI email app Shortwave AI. This leads to a conversation around what AI models are optimizing for, and how speed and polish can sometimes be part of the baseline usability of a product.
They also explore the default Agent workflows we should be trying as we figure out the right knowledge worker AI copilot. Using the analogy of the history of web development and AI no code, from webflow to squarespace, what those design approaches might tell us about how AI workflow tools will develop.
Finally, we discuss the potential value of talking to VCs when you're not raising, and the perils of taking even good generalized advice all the time.
Topics
* Shortwave email
* Avi Goldfarb and his book Prediction Machines
* Avi also spoke with Patrick O'Shaughnessy
* Yahoo Pipes wikipedia page, or see Retool's amazing history of Pipes
* TLdraw's Makereal
Reviewing voice note transcription apps, from WaveAI to Audiopen and ChatGPT. Then Fraser and Nabeel take stock of various ways AI coding is affecting software development, from Co-Pilots to "mealeable software development" and No-Code AI. Lastly, the hosts talk through a wish list of products they'd love to see this year.
Topics:
- Slowed Pace of AI Product Launches
- Wave AI app, and what to look for in voice notes transcription
- Current state of AI-enabled software tools
- Potential impact of AI on software development workflows
- What is the AI native storytelling medium
- The AI todo list partner
- Coding as a liberal art
- User input layer and direct feedback in AI-enabled tools
References:
- Wave AI
- Meable Software in the age of LLMs
- Zapier AI
- Replit
Fraser and Nabeel discuss the onslaught of AI hardware launches, exploring the potential factors behind this shift. They also discuss the importance of designing not by listening to your customer but by understanding the customer. The duo also discuss the importance and challenges surrounding 'prompt engineering' vs prompt writing, using BARD, SunoAI and Perplexity as case examples. They cover the layoffs in tech startups, examining the tension between growth and profitability and the potential drawbacks of a too-aggressive cost-cutting focus. Finally, they delve into the potential of AI in generating music, trying SunoAI.
Links:
- OpenAI Prompt Engineering guide
- Rabbit - new AI hardware companion
- Snipd - Podcast player
- Remarkable - Dedicated tablet for note writing
- SunoAI - AI music creation
Nabeel and Fraser briefly discuss Google's new AI model, Gemini, and keeping authenticity in startup pitches. They discuss the perils of trying to simplify when technology is lending towards complexity. How to stay authentic to yourself when pitching and fundraising. The new findings of Claude prompting, and the likely continued need for prompt engineering. Finally, they talk about the startup SuperPowered, its potential pivot, and how passion for problem-solving can impact a company's direction.
* Google Gemini's excellent product video "demo"
* History of Razorfish
* Claude 2.1 Prompting Technique
* AI Meeting notes from Superpowered.me
Nabeel gets to ask Fraser for reflections on the development of ChatGPT on the one-year anniversary. They talk about the intersection of product managers and AI researchers, how ChatGPT came to be on the roadmap, how the team came to be formed, and the difference between polish & overengineering. They then discuss the recent explosion of real-time AI painting applications, the divide between text-based UIs and GUIs in AI products, and redesigning new creative arts at the intersections of art, realtime, and play.
* Aliisa on the night of ChatGPT's launch
* Martin Nebelong's Realtime painting experiements
* Fastlane.AI Painting
* Kepano - Photoshop for text
The conversation kicks off with the surprising news of Sam Altman’s departure from OpenAI. Nabeel and Fraser then discuss the ‘crazy week’ of product releases, demystifying the complexity and impact of AI in various workflows. They spotlight AI startup Lindy, review My GPTS, and early impressions of the product Dot, an AI-driven guide in daily life. The duo categorizes AI developments into three ‘buckets’: lead bullet strategy, a universal translator bucket, and inventing new behaviors.
In this conversation, discussions revolve around the recent OpenAI Dev Day, the Reflect note taking app, and how founders should internalize the "threat" and partnership opportunities with OpenAI. Fraser & Nabeel discuss that it's still "fart app and flashlight" early days for developers to truly utilize the capabilities of technologies like ChatGPT. The conversation then shifts to Reflect, a note-taking app that utilises AI to optimise features like speech-to-text and backlinking. The speakers debate whether one company can excel in both consumer-facing products and developer platforms, highlighting how OpenAI is in a unique position to potentially 'run the table' across various booming markets.
Fraser & Nabeel get things up and running again at Hallway Chat. How AI is changing search engines, comparing Perplexity with Google, and what just goes to ChatGPT & Claude. "Shipping your org chat". Debating Sam Lessin's recent "State of Venture Capital" and whether AI in startups is just magical thinking. The app of the week: Snipd, an AI podcast player
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Follow us on Twitter @nabeel | @fraser
Hey ya'll. In todays show we discuss Apple and service-based software releasing, the PS5 and why we play games, creating a middle class Creator Economy, blogging in 2021 and finding your voice on the internet, being a VC only in up times. It's our first episode of the new year, Nabeel and Bijan are joined by our new Spark colleague, Brian Watson!
We are back with a long overdue edition of Hallway Chat. Todays episode, Bijan and Nabeel discuss: investing during a pandemic (ie 2020 vs 2019), how we are working from home (technology and schedule), some likely controversial thoughts about remote work, AirPods woes, and a few memorable moments at Postmates. Thanks for listening and as always tweet us with comments/questions/suggestions.
After a one year-ish break, Nabeel and Bijan are back with a shiny new episode! In this pod, we chat about things on our minds lately including, is VC pattern recognition actually valuable, what does the decline of the iPhone mean to Apple's future, the potential for single purpose electronics, and challenging the dogma of "winner takes all" markets in startups.
A podcast by Bijan Sabet and Nabeel Hyatt, partners at Spark Capital. Recorded: December 13, 2017: Show summary: Bitcoin Frenzy, Tech company morality, the iMac Pro, and startup hard decisions
Another episode of Hallway Chat. Bijan and Nabeel. Recorded November 16, 2017. Show notes: - iPhone X, including new apps - Musical.ly’s exit and the notion that “mobile consumer is dead” - The changes in the VC landscape, from the moral awakening to the explosion of seeds - Eugene Wei’s blog post on Amazon and analytics - Gadget gifts: Rylo, Molekule, Aura
5/19/2017: Hey, we're back with another episode of Hallway Chat. Show notes: Clay Bavor's Virtual & Augmented Realities http://bit.ly/2pNfVra Reid Hoffman's Masters of Scale podcast https://mastersofscale.com/ Tim O'Reilly's response to Masters of Scale https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/some-businesses-bleed-black-tim-o-reilly Google's ongoing tranformation into an AI company, as evidenced in Google I/O, Google Photos, and elsewhere (along with my ongoing disbelief that Nabeel uses Apple Maps) Competing, from copying to net neutrality
Recorded 2/10/17. Summary: Nabeel and Bijan discuss a few favorite new apps, some thoughts about current American politics & the moral awakening of Silicon Valley, Related links: Teuxdeux: https://teuxdeux.com/ 10% Happier: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/meditation-for-fidgety-skeptics/id992210239?mt=8 Anil Dash: Tech Moral Reckoning: http://onbeing.org/programs/anil-dash-techs-moral-reckoning/
Hi everyone! @nabeel and @bijan are back with a new podcast to kick off the new year. This episode of Hallway Chat, we are joined by our fellow Spark partner Kevin Thau (@kevinthau). We talked about the new Apple Airpods, Apple vs Google apps for iOS, Bijan's beef with mail apps for iOS, Nabeel's crazy love affair with Apple Maps, Voice assistants (Echo, Siri, Google Home).
Nabeel and Bijan discussed Google I/O 2016 and some thoughts about all the choices developers have to consider in a world with so many different platforms.
Another episode of Hallway Chat with @nabeel and @bijan Topics: how the Tesla 3 has presold so much, Cruise and navigating the new rush of autonomous driving startups, Nest/Echo and what it takes to keep innovating, Snapchat’s social trajectory, and the march towards replacing MacOS with iOS. Please tweet us your questions & suggestions! Thanks so much for listening.
A podcast by Bijan Sabet and Nabeel Hyatt, partners at Spark Capital. In todays show, we were joined by special guest and our friend, Fred Wilson.
Show notes:
-questions from Twitter, including how Fred started investing in social media, & YC's recent move to recommend exercising options from 90 days to 10 years
-Fred's post, "The New Entertainment Bundlers"
-Chris Dixon's, "What's Next In Computing?"
-Why haven't we seen a new breakout consumer app
-AI
-Steph Curry vs Michael Jordan
En liten tjänst av I'm With Friends. Finns även på engelska.