Pastors Talk – A podcast by 9Marks

Many pastors rightly desire to reach the next generation. But how should they?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman interviews Kevin DeYoung on his new book, The (Not-So-Secret) Secret to Reaching the Next Generation

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat with Jeri Choi, Welton Bonner, and Bobby Jamieson about preparing to plant a church.

What covenant is the new covenant replacing? If your answer is the old covenant, what do you mean?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat with Bobby Jamieson about the implications of biblical covenants in a local church.

What makes a good associate pastor? How can he complement a senior pastor’s weaknesses and extend his strengths?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman interviews Deepak Reju, Bobby Jamieson, and Mark Feather about their experience as associate pastors.

Pastors are called to lead their sheep, even the frustrated ones.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about how pastors should care for frustrated sheep in the church.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman interview Bobby Jamieson and Mark Feather about why pastors should care about studying the doctrine of the Trinity.

What should you do when you disagree with your boss? Should you stay or leave? What are disagreeable philosophies of ministry? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about what you should do when you disagree with your boss.

Counseling Talk is here!

In this episode, Jonathan Leeman interviews the hosts—Deepak Reju, Hayley Satrom, and Garrett Kell—about the what and why of Counseling Talk.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman interview Connie Dever about children's ministry.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman interview Connie Dever about children's ministry in a local church.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat about seminary training.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat with Cheston Pickard, a pastor in Louisville, about corporate applications in preaching.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat with Jamie Dunlop about when a congregation should vote against its elders.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about congregational singing in a local church.

• Why do Christians sing?
• What kinds of songs should we sing at church?
• What is congregational singing?
• What does Colossians 3:16 mean?
• How can I help my church to sing?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman interact with Tim Keller's article, "Leadership and Church Size Dynamics"

• Tips for leading my church well
• What program should I start in my church?
• How can I lead my church staff well?
• What kind of leadership skill should pastors have?
• What are some problems that small churches face?
• What are some problems that big churches face?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about transcendence in worship services.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about how we should interact with church disciplined members.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about different criteria for discipline.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about the newest edition of Church Matters, Catholicity: Churches Partnering Together.

If your church is centered on Christ alone, unity will sometimes involve building genuine friendships with Christians with whom you honestly don't share much in common.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever interviews Jamie Dunlop about his new book, Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about the role and the importance of statements of faith.

What's the history behind church covenants? Do they have more or less authority than the Bible? Is having a church covenant abusive? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about church covenants.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talks about the importance of words in pastoral ministry.

Young pastors often have clear vision but little depth perception. From the interview phase to what to preach next, young pastors need guidance from older pastors around the area to offer wisdom and guidance.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat with Phil Newton and Rich Shadden, authors of Shepherding the Pastor.

In this Pastors Talk episode, Mark and Jonathan interview Nathan Knight, one of the pastors at Restoration Church in Washington, D.C.

In this Pastors Talk episode, Jonathan interviews Mark and Kevin DeYoung on pastoral, public tone.

Dr. Leeman is in the hot seat! In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark interviews Jonathan about his new book, Authority, and how Christians should wield authority.

Authority by Jonathan Leeman

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk with Bart Barber, the President of the Southern Baptist Convention, about pastoring.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat about staffing titles in the church.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk about how to disagree with your pastor.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan interview Mike McKinley about his new book, Friendship with God: A Path to Deeper Fellowship with the Father, Son, and Spirit

A few weeks ago, we published a new edition of Church Matters—formerly known as the 9Marks Journal—that addresses a few unusual topics: Christian nationalism, theonomy, and magisterial Protestantism.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever explain why.

How should a Christian think about patriotism? Why should pastors especially be careful of both nostalgia and cynicism?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with SBTS professor John D. Wilsey about all these questions and more.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about this under-reported aspect of a pastor's job description.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat with Geoff Chang about Spurgeon the pastor.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat with Alex DiPrima, the author of Spurgeon and the Poor.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat with Deepak Reju about pastoral responses to domestic abuse.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk with Matt Schmucker and Paul Billings about reaching, discipling, and mobilizing college students for missions.

It's clear in Scripture: local churches should celebrate the Lord's Supper. But there's a lot about these celebrations that is up to us to decide. In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan asks Mark and Bobby a ton of rapid-fire questions about the Lord's Supper.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat with Tommie van der Walt about the state of Christian publishing in South Africa.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan and Mark talk about “red-dot churches” and “green-dot churches.”

Related Resources:

• “Discipling” by Mark Dever
• “Evangelism” by Mack Stiles
• “Elders–The Church’s Lead Disciple-Makers” by Jeramie Rinne
• “A Foolproof Discipling Program: Corporate Worship” by John Sarver
• “Cultivating a Culture of Discipling” by Mark Dever (video)
• “How can I as a church leader help cultivate a culture of discipleship?“

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat about how churches should care for their missionaries.


Mentioned Resource:

• “Missions” by Andy Johnson

Related Resources:

• “On Funding Missionaries” by Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Tyler Markson
• “Stop Sending Missionaries: Why More Isn’t Always Better” by Steve Jennings
• “Seven Principles for Funding Foreign Missions” by Tyler Markson
• “How Can I Support International Missions?” by Mark Collins

How can you tell if a church practices meaningful membership? Consider how it responds to those “members” who never attend. In this episode, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Alex Duke about how this topic is more important than you think. 

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about several practical ways elders can disciple other elders.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan and Mark chat with Matt Rhodes, the author of "No Shortcut to Success: A Manifesto for Modern Missions."

They discuss rapidity in missions and whether or not missionaries should be “professionals.”

In this episode of Pastors Talk, two pastors—Bob Johnson and Omar Johnson—offer some counsel to a brand-new pastor, Sam Emadi.

In this episode, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about who the Puritans are and how they’ve shaped his ministry.

Last week, Collin Hansen reflected on the top stories of last year. So we had him and Garrett Kell on this episode of Pastors Talk to think through each of these stories pastorally.

Mark Dever, Caleb Morell, and Ben Lacey chat with Swedish pastor Johnny Lithell about the ups and downs of ministry in a place with so few Christians.

In a previous episode, Jonathan Leeman chatted with Mark Dever, Josh Manley, and John Folmar about the value of pastoral patience.

In this follow-up episode, they discuss how a pastor can slowly change things in a church.

For the first ten minutes of this episode, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever talk to Josh Manley and John Folmar about Christianity in Afghanistan and the UAE. Then they spend the rest of their time discussing the necessity of pastoral patience.

Every Christian has a role in supporting international missions. In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Mark Collins—a supported worker in East Asia—about the relationship between a church and its missionaries.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever chats with Jonathan Leeman about our new Journal and, in particular, Jonathan’s Editor’s Note, which focuses on the problems of the “deconstruction” project.

We released Nine Marks of a Healthy Church more than 20 years ago. Today, we celebrate its fourth edition.

In this Pastors Talk episode, Jonathan chats with Mark about the book’s history, and how this edition introduces two “additional” marks.

What’s the thesis of Gentle and Lowly? “Jesus is not who you think he is.”

Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever chat with Dane Ortlund about his book, and how it ought to shape pastors and local churches.

In a previous conversation, Jonathan chatted with Mark and Bobby about the value of going slowly down the road toward pastoral ministry, of being “filtered.” In this follow-up conversation, they discuss a host of other topics: character qualifications, marriage, biblical knowledge, devotional life, and more.

* * * * *

This conversation unpacks the content in Bobby’s new book, "The Path to Being a Pastor".

If you desire to be in pastoral ministry, then what should you do? How long should the path be?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Bobby Jamieson about the first chapter of Bobby’s new book, "The Path to Being a Pastor".

What’s the difference between “movement-based missions” and “church-based missions”? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mack Stiles, Brooks Buser, Scott Logsdon, and Aubrey Sequeira about these diverging approaches to obeying the Great Commission.

Some people say that investing in a bigger building is at odds with investing in the Great Commission. Is that the case?

Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Adam Sinnett discuss.

What does translating books have to do with the Great Commission?

Jonathan Leeman sat down with three international publishers to talk about that question.

Men who aspire to be a pastor need to be “filtered.” What does that mean?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman, Mark Dever, and Bobby Jamieson discuss. And in the first 7 minutes of this episode, Jonathan asks Mark his thoughts on Mike Cosper’s podcast, The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill.

Is being a church planter different than being a pastor? What can the book of Acts teach us about church planting?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Matt Smethurst ask Eric Bancroft questions about church planting.

Some Christians think that local churches are merely dispensers of religious information & religious experiences. Is that true?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark Dever interviews Collin Hansen & Jonathan Leeman about their new book, Rediscover Church.

How do you preach a Christ-centered sermon from the Old Testament? Jonathan Leeman chats with David King and Mike Bullmore about our new preaching book, "Your Old Testament Sermon Needs to Get Saved".

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about gathering twice on Sundays, and why it might be good for your church to be “inconvenient.”

Recently, there’s been lots of conversation about what constitutes plagiarism in the pulpit.

So Jonathan Leeman chatted with Mark Dever and Ben Lacey about the topic.

Why is the Lord’s Supper so important? What should ordinary Christians know about it?

Jonathan Leeman interviews Aubrey M. Sequeira and Sam Emadi about this question.

Have you ever asked, “How can I find someone to disciple me?”

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever, Garrett Kell, and Mike McKinley about that common question.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with David Helm, Juan Sanchez, and Michael Lawrence about the unique blessings and burdens of parenting your kids while also pastoring your church.

Does God love everyone?

Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever, Mike McKinley, and Matt McCullough about our new Church Questions booklet on that important question.

Kevin DeYoung recently wrote a new book—"Men and Women in the Church: A Short, Biblical, Practical Introduction". In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and DeYoung about the role of men and women in healthy churches.

Most Christians know that they should give to their church, but fewer know why they should. In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Jamie Dunlop about this topic, which is also covered in Jamie's new booklet, "Why Should I Give to My Church?"

Why should pastors meet with prospective church members? What should they talk about when they do?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about the usefulness of membership interviews.

What does the Bible say about deacons? How are they different than elders? Should they balance the authority of the elders?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Matt Smethurst about his new book.

Are local churches uniquely difficult for women? How can women thrive in our churches?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever chat with Keri Folmar about her new booklet from Crossway and 9Marks.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about the value of preaching big chunks of texts, including whole books in one sermon.

Are sabbaticals in the Bible? Are they . . . fair? (After all, what other profession gets them!) How should they be structured?

How much should churches pay their pastors? How can they even find the answer to that question? Should a pastor ever ask for a raise?

Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Jamie Dunlop about these questions.

Firing someone is almost always hard, perhaps especially in the church. In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about this difficult topic, one that Mark says is a personal weakness of his.

In a growing church, nominating elders can be hard. After all, people might not know the man. They might never have heard him teach. So what’s a church to do?

Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about raising up elders as a church’s culture changes.

How transparent should pastors be with their congregation as they think about pursuing other jobs? As it turns out, Mark Dever and Hershael York offer different counsel on this. Jonathan Leeman chats with them about the wisdom of different approaches.

There’s nothing in the Bible about who should chair—lead—elders’ meetings. But the role and responsibility of the elder chairman is nonetheless very important. Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever, Ken Barbic, and Isaac Adams.

Surely you’ve heard someone ask, “But pastor, why should I be baptized?”

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Bobby Jamieson about that important question.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about one of the pastor’s most important jobs: preparing his people for eternity.

This year has been hard, but now it’s finally (nearly) over. In this final Pastors Talk of 2020, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about the highs and lows of this particular year.

Are you looking for books to read this holiday season? Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about a bunch of fun biographies.

Among the many things 2020 has made more complicated, chief among them is caring for members who are unwilling to come back to church.

For years, certain churches and ministries have referred to “virtual church” or “attending church online.” This year of COVID-19—the “anti-gathering virus,” as Mark puts it in this episode—has made such phrases even more popular.

Paul says pastors must be “well thought of by outsiders.” But Jesus says we’re “blessed” when others speak evil about us, even falsely.

What do we do with this? How much should a pastor care about his reputation?

Episode 149 explained what “cleaning the rolls” means, and why pastors should lead their churches to do it. Episode 150 continues the conversation, but focuses on how to actually get it done.

Jonathan Leeman, Mark Dever, and Matt Schmucker discuss.

Some churches report hundreds of members, with dozens in attendance. These churches need to “clean their rolls.”

Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Matt Schmucker about what that means and why churches should do it.

Healthy churches plant churches. But how? What causes a church to “bubble over”? Here’s one way.

Broadly speaking, “theonomy” is the theological persuasion that civil societies ought to be governed by the Mosaic Law. In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever chat with T. David Gordon about the errors and appeal of theonomy.

We just released a new Journal: Pastoring through Political Turmoil. In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about the Journal in particular and the topic of pastoring through an election season in general.

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk about how pastors can prepare their people for a tough political season.

How do you prevent a potential friction between staff and lay elders? How do you ensure they’re not just “yes men”? How much deference should non-staff elders give others?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman, Mark Dever, and Klon Kitchen continue their conversation on lay elders.

Churches ought to have elders. Some will be paid (1 Tim. 5), but many will be not. These unpaid elders are called “lay elders.” Is this distinction in this Bible? Are lay elders “minor-league elders”? Are they called to ministry in the same way senior pastors are? How can a church make sure that there isn’t a deep divide between elders who are paid by the church and those who aren’t?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Klon Kitchen (a lay elder at Cheverly Baptist Church) about these questions and more.

In this inaugural episode of Bible Talk, Alex Duke chats with Jim Hamilton and Sam Emadi about the first three chapters of Genesis. These first three chapters of the Bible are so important because they set the trajectory for everything that comes next—all the way until we get to Revelation 22.

Bible Talk is available on iTunes, Spotify and 9Marks.org.

Jonathan and Mark chat about Grace Community Church’s decision, civil disobedience, and how Christians ought to approach this season with an extra amount of charity and grace.

In this special episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman asks Mark Dever to reflect on his friendship with J. I. Packer.

As Christians, we know we should pray. But too often, we fail to because we simply don’t desire to.

Sadly, missing church is common. Sometimes, it's for good reasons; other times, it's not. As a pastor, how many times have you heard a member tell you, "I'm so sorry we missed last Sunday—we just couldn't make it with everything we have going on!"?

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Gunner Gundersen about how we should respond to those who simply don't feel like going to church—and so they miss for this-or-that reason.

Many pastors feel pressure from their members to speak up on social media. “Why aren’t you talking about ___________? Don’t you care?”

In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about how pastors ought to approach social media use.

In this Pastors Talk episode, Jonathan chats with Mark about the new 9Marks Journal: On Shepherding — The Work and Character of a Pastor. They focus on three traits of a pastor:

— They should be godly & gifted, but especially godly.
— They should care about other churches.
— They shouldn’t freak out.

In his book Revival & Revivalism, Iain Murray defines revival as God using ordinary means to effect extraordinary change. That’s much different than revivalism, which is when man tries to use extraordinary means to effect the same, extraordinary change.

Can you tell the difference between the two? Is it even possible? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan asks Mark to take a brief tour of church history so that pastors and Christians today can discern the difference between revival—a good thing—and revivalism—a bad thing.

Have you ever met a growing Christian who is self-consciously choosing not to join a church? In this episode of Pastors Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about the vital necessity of joining a local church.

For more on this topic, check out Mark’s new mini-book in the Church Questions series: "Why Should I Join a Church?"

Should pastors try to educate their church about issues related to race and racism? If so, how?

In this Pastors’ Talk episode, Jonathan Leeman chats with three staff members of College Park Church—Mark Vroegop, Jeff Brown, and James Miles—about what they’ve done, how they’ve done it, and why the journey is worth whatever difficulties it brings.

The past few weeks have been hard. People are grieving and angry, scared and confused.

How should pastors lead and love their people during a national trauma? Jonathan Leeman and Garrett Kell discuss.

Conversations about politics are often emotionally charged. We disagree because our consciences are calibrated differently. So how can we still love each other? Mark Dever, Jonathan Leeman, and Andy Naselli discuss.

As churches move toward gathering again, there are lots of principles to consider. One of the most important—and one of the least talked about—is the difference between what’s a church and what’s not a church.

Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss in this Pastors’ Talk episode.

In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Matt Schmucker about what to do when elders disagree.

A few years ago, someone told pastor Aaron Menikoff that he was too harsh. The Holy Spirit took that feedback, and sparked in Aaron a fresh desire to pursue the fruit of the Spirit, which ultimately led to this new book: Character Matters.

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever chat with Aaron about the importance of godly character in the life of all Christians, especially pastors.

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In the previous Pastors’ Talk episode, Jonathan and Mark chatted about why he wrote One Assembly and how he hopes the book will be received. In this episode, Mark asks Jonathan to make his best case from the Bible against multi-site and multi-service churches.

Jonathan’s new book One Assembly argues against multi-site and multi-service churches. What motivated him to write a whole book on the topic? Isn’t this much ado about very little?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark chats with Jonathan about his new book, why he loves multi-site and multi-service pastors, and what he hopes the book will accomplish.

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In this Pastor's Talk mini-episode, Mark Dever discusses what pastors and churches should do in light of the Coronavirus pandemic.

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It should be exceedingly rare to baptize someone apart from local church membership. In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about the connection between the two.

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One of the best ways to raise up the next generation of preachers is to give unproven guys opportunities. In this episode, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Isaac Adams about training young preachers.

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God has told us in his Word how we ought to approach him in worship. This should shape how we plan our Sunday gatherings. But it also raises a question: Are we free to do things in our gatherings that God does not explicitly prescribe?

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever, John Joseph, and Nathan Knight about a topic every pastor knows well: how to care for difficult people.

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In this Pastors’ Talk episode, Jonathan chats with Mark and Paul Alexander about biblical theology. They cover questions like:

— How do we accurately preach Christ from the Old Testament?
— How should we preach Jesus as a moral example?
— How do we get better at this?

To what degree should our services and sermons be aimed at non-Christians? How “seeker-sensitive” should we be?

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In this inaugural episode of Preachers’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with three friends from Simeon Trust—David Helm, Ed Copeland, and Jeremy Meeks—about preaching. To listen to Preachers' Talk, visit 9Marks.org

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Recently, the well-known pastor and author Francis Chan made some alarming comments about preaching, the Lord’s Supper, and the unity of the church. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark Dever, Bobby Jamieson, and Mark Feather about Chan’s comments in particular and the topics of preaching, the Supper, and unity more generally.

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about the new 9Marks Journal, Complementarianism: A Moment of Reckoning. Our Journals may be downloaded for free at 9Marks.org.

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Prospective pastors, don’t put your best foot forward.

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever and Blake Boylston about the interviewing and candidating process.

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Christians get depressed, which means pastors get depressed, too. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark and Blake Boylston about how pastors ought to face seasons of depression.

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“I’m gifted in . . . ” How would you finish that sentence?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk about how our spiritual gifts are primarily meant for the body. Our gifts aren’t, first and foremost, about our ability, but others’ edification.

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Pastoring small churches comes with unique challenges. In this Pastors’ Talk episode, Jonathan Leeman, Mark Dever, PJ Tibayan, and Jonathan Worsley discuss the blessings and burdens of shepherding a small flock.

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with author Matt McCullough about his book “Remember Death.” They’re joined by Mark Dever and Ligon Duncan.

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Recorded live during 9Marks at Southeastern 2019.

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Jeramie Rinne about the character and job description of an elder.

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about our new Journal—Heart of the Gospel: Penal Substitutionary Atonement.

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In recent months, complementarians have been in ongoing discussions about what precisely it means to be a complementarian. Does it mean that women ought not be pastors? Does it mean that women ought not preach in the church? What does 1 Timothy 2:12 specifically forbid?

Unfortunately, many of these conversations yield more heat than light. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat about these recent complementarian kerfuffles, in particular how the two “sides” of the argument can disagree and converse with one another charitably.

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Our world is full of problems. But what can healthy churches do about it?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan sits down with Mark to talk about different cultural problems—from the #MeToo movement to identity politics, from social justice concerns to persecution—and think through how pastors ought to address them.

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about our new Journal—Church Membership: Following the Lord Together.

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We know the church is comprised of the people, not the building. And yet, church buildings can be extremely valuable, useful, and vital for the health of long-term Christianity.

In this conversation, Jonathan chats with Mark about these topics and more.

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Jonathan talks to Jamie Dunlop about the new book, "Budgeting for a Healthy Church" now available in the 9Marks bookstore. Visit 9marks.org/bookstore for more.

"If you want to see your church move toward health, the church budget has to move toward health."

--

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Lament is a "prayer in pain that leads to trust."

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When deciding where to live, Christians ought to consider normal factors: school district, safety, etc. But they should also consider—and perhaps even prioritize—how location affects their relationships at church.

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The Great Commission has been fulfilled, at least in part, by local Christians setting aside money to pay someone to teach them God’s Word full-time when possible.

Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss the principle of churches paying their pastors.

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What’s the difference between a church plant and a church? Is it best to start a church with a team of pastors rather than a solo pastor?

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For this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan interviewed Mark Dever and Sam Emadi about our new Journal, Ecclesiology for Calvinists. Download the 9Marks Journal at http://9marks.org .

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan asks Mark and Bobby a bunch of questions about the Lord’s Supper. What’s the most biblical position: open, close, or closed? Should the Supper be given at small groups and summer camps, weddings and nursing homes? How often—weekly, monthly, quarterly?

Almost every Christian denomination and tradition practices baptism. In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Mark and Jonathan are joined by Bobby Jamieson to discuss practical questions about baptism and its connection to the local church.

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In this episode, Mark and Jonathan discuss the biblical and theological principles for why Christians gather on Sundays, and why, generally speaking, those principles make canceling any Sunday gathering an unusual choice.

What do pastors in the throes of church revitalization need to know? In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan interviews Mark and two other pastors who went through a revitalization, Andy Davis and Aaron Menikoff.

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How does a man discern whether he ought to pursue pastoral ministry? What if he's already in a successful career?

In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Mark and Jonathan chat with Brad Wheeler about how the Lord led him away from a career in finance to pastoral ministry.

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In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan sits down with Mark, John Folmar, and Andy Johnson to talk about healthy churches and global missions.

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What’s the goal in contextualization? How do we know if we’ve gone too far, or not far enough?

The Bible tells us that “God is love.” But what does that actually mean? And what does it have to do with our lives and the local church?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman chat about Jonathan’s new book, The Rule of Love.

It’s vital for individual Christians to pursue holiness. But how can church members work *together* in fighting against the sin of pornography?

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‪How should a pastor shepherd people through disagreement? How should he balance the tension between being a truth-teller and a peacemaker?‬ ‪Mark and Jonathan discuss.

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Churches shouldn’t farm out personal evangelism to pastors, professionals, or programs. Instead, the goal for every church ought to be a culture of evangelism.

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Pastors must teach their people about what a church is. If they don’t, then who will?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman talk about this often overlooked part of a pastor’s job description.

Are members’ meetings in the Bible? How can a pastor cultivate a culture where people care about the business of their church? What tone should mark these kinds of meetings?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark and Jonathan discuss members meetings—what they are, where they are in the Bible, and how to make them of spiritual interest.

In the season premiere of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan and Mark sit down with John Onwuchekwa to talk about his new 9Marks book Prayer: How Praying Together Shapes the Church.

Mark and Jonathan discuss the subject of burnout, particularly how it happens and what church leaders can do to avoid it in the first place.

Good books help us follow Jesus. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark and Jonathan discuss instrumental books in Mark’s conversion, what books every prospective pastor should read, and what books church leaders should hand out to their people.

Complementarianism is an umbrella term, under which Christians with both “narrow” and “broad” convictions stand.

Narrow complementarians are reluctant to say much more about the differences between men and women beyond texts like Ephesians 5:22 and 1 Tim. 2:12. “Broad” complementarians place these Pauline precepts inside of a larger theological “vision” or “definition” of manhood and womanhood that applies to all of life.

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever talk about these theological distinctions, and how they sometimes threaten the unity of local churches.

What does a biblical deacon do? How do they differ from elders? In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan talks to Mark about the biblical office of deacon.

What do we mean when we say that Scripture is “sufficient”? Does the sufficiency of Scripture have anything to do with pastoral ministry? Does it shackle pastors or does it provide them reassurance?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan chats with Mark about these questions and more.

Through the liturgies of the Reformation, evangelical doctrine was as much caught in public worship as it was taught in published writings

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman sits down with pastors Jamie Dunlop and Bobby Jamieson to discuss their roles, and how their work complements Mark’s as the senior pastor.

In this episode, Mark chats with Jonathan about his new book How the Nations Rage: Rethinking Faith & Politics in a Divided Age.

For many churches, the Sunday School hour has gone by the wayside. In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk about how Core Seminar classes can become a vital ministry for any local church.

We're gearing up for the sixth Together for the Gospel conference. Does this conference—which will host 12,000+ people—exacerbate the problem of celebrity pastors, especially as articulated recently on TGC by Andy Crouch?

Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman discuss this question among many others.

In this episode, Mark and Jonathan sit down with Nick Roark, a pastor and the author of the new book "Biblical Theology: How the Church Faithfully Teaches the Gospel".

Jonathan and Mark continue their conversation on elders' meetings, exploring common questions like: should elders require unanimity? What should a new pastor do if he inherits a contentious elder? Should close decisions be delayed, or should elders just move forward? How can senior pastors resist the temptation to dominate every meeting?

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It's not a pastor's job to have a PhD. But pastors *are* called to protect the flock from false teachers, and to shepherd people through theological questions and concerns.

In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Mark and Jonathan are joined by Ligon Duncan of Reformed Theological Seminary to talk through these issues.

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Matt Merker—a pastoral assistant at Capitol Hill Baptist Church—chats with Mark Dever about the usefulness of pastoral internships.

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman and Mark Dever discuss the benefits and best practices of hosting a regular, church-wide prayer gathering—in addition to the Sunday service.

How should pastors respond when their ministry is marked by disappointment and unmet expectations?

"Pastor, if you’re discouraged by a lack of fruit, stop looking at the past 20 days. Look at the past 20 years." — Mark Dever

Is “mere Christianity”—the conviction that we should focus on only what’s essential to being a Christian—really the path toward true Christian unity? Does it guard the gospel over time?

Pastors are used to saying goodbye to long-time friends. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan interviews Mark about how to prepare for these sad-but-joyful moments.

January 2018 marks the 20th anniversary of 9Marks. To celebrate that milestone, Jonathan interviewed the two guys who were there when it all began: Mark Dever and Matt Schmucker.

Discipling doesn’t need to be tethered to an elaborate program. Instead, it should be a part of a church’s culture. That’s easy to say, but hard to implement.

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman chats with Mark Dever about discipling in the local church.

Jonathan Leeman interviews four seasoned pastors—Mark Dever, Burk Parsons, H. B. Charles, and Jeramie Rinne—about leadership.

Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman continue their conversation about racial division in the church, highlighting the ways pastors can both educate themselves and work against it.

Mark Dever reflects on his friendship with the late R.C. Sproul.

Mark Dever chats with Jonathan Leeman about America's racial history, and how Christians should learn from brothers and sisters who aren't like them.

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How long should a preacher prep for his sermons? When and how should he consult commentaries? What’s the best way to involve others in the process?

Almost everyone agrees pastors need to be trained, both practically and theologically. But does this mean they must receive formal theological training from a seminary?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan interviews both Mark and C. J. Mahaney about how pastors should be trained, and what seminaries have to do with it.

How should a church find its next pastor? Who makes this decision? A search committee? A group of elders? The pastor all by himself? And once such a search begins, how should it start?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan interviews Mark about “one of the most important decisions a church makes,” that is, finding its next pastor.

Over the past several decades, the multi-site church model has become quite popular. Recently, however, The Village Church, pastored by Matt Chandler, announced it was transitioning all of its sites into independent local churches. In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Mark Dever and Jonathan Leeman interview Matt to talk about the reasons behind this decision.

What is the mission of the church? Is it to preach the gospel and make disciples—or is that too narrow? What about good works? What about seeking transformation for our neighborhoods—or is that too broad?

Pastoring can be lonely. But it doesn’t have to be.

Does church order really have anything to do with discipleship? Isn’t one polity—presbyterian, congregational, etc.—just as good as another?

In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman sits down with Mark Dever to talk about these questions and more.

Evangelicals are always in danger of losing the gospel because they don’t appreciate the role of the conscience and Christian freedom.

The conscience is there to protect Christian freedom—and Christian freedom protects us from legalism. This is important because when legalism is indulged, it can actually threaten the gospel itself.

Jonathan Leeman sits down with Mark Dever to talk about how local churches can more wisely support overseas work.

In conjunction with the Fall 2017 Journal "The Reformation and Your Church," Jonathan Leeman interviews Mark Dever on the Reformation and its usefulness for Christians today.

We just released a Journal on church planting and church mergers. Because neither Mark nor Jonathan wrote an article for it, we devoted this episode of Pastors’ Talk to the topic.

Also: this will be our last Pastors’ Talk until September, though we’ll be recording them all summer, so send us your ideas if you have them!

SHOW NOTES:

— Have you (Mark) ever been a church planter? (2:30)

— Why are the topics of planting and mergers worth thinking through? (4:10)

— Is there a different skill set for the church planter and someone leading a church merger? (8:00)

— What’s some bad advice you often hear for church planters? (9:20)

— Do some of the problems stem from a dependence on agencies as opposed to churches? What are agencies useful for? What should they not do that they tend to do? (11:00)

— What common wisdom do you have to offer those involved in church mergers? (13:10)

— When does the “church plant” become a church? (19:00)

— Who should leave a church to go with a plant? (20:00)

— Do you have elders first, and then members? Or the other way around? (22:20)

In a few weeks, we’re releasing a new book, Conversion: How God Creates a People, in which Michael Lawrence makes the case that one’s doctrine of conversion has massive effects on one’s philosophy of ministry. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark and Jonathan talk about this connection.

SHOW NOTES:

– What’s this new book Conversion about? Why is conversion one of the nine marks? (1:55)

– How does conversion affect one’s philosophy of ministry and even preaching style? (5:30)

– Do liberal Christians have a doctrine of conversion? Same-sex affirming churches? (7:10)

– How does Genesis 3 inform our doctrine of conversion? (9:00)

– Is the doctrine of conversion going to become more and more offensive? (14:40)

– Biblically speaking, what is conversion? (15:40)

– Does “belonging before believing” undermine a biblical doctrine of conversion? Open communion? Spontaneous baptisms? (17:20)

– How does a biblical doctrine of conversion affect a pastor’s preaching? (20:00)

– How is church discipline an implication of the doctrine of conversion? (23:00)

One of the most important and time-consuming tasks for a church and its pastors involves receiving and releasing members, bringing them in and seeing them out. And yet, it's almost never talked about in books on the church or in seminary.

To fill in this gap, Mark and Jonathan devoted this episode of Pastors' Talk to the one topic: receiving and releasing members.

In many evangelical churches, the public prayers are casual, short, and few. Is that a problem? How does this contemporary situation compare to the history of Protestant churches? How should pastors seek to reinvigorate their churches’ prayer practices?

Jonathan sat down with Mark to discuss all these questions and more.

SHOW NOTES:

– In your experience, what does the public prayer look like in the average evangelical church? How does this compare historically? (:50)

– Without impugning motives, why do churches play so little? (2:50)

– Is there a pattern of corporate prayer in the Bible? (4:00)

– Is a church being disobedient if they’re not giving ample time to corporate prayer? (5:25)

– What does should the public prayer look like? What is a prayer of praise of confession? Should only men pray publicly? (6:30)

– How should a pastor think through his “pastoral prayer” (14:00)?

– This amount of prayer can be tough to get through for those not used to it. It slows people down and causes us to actively participate in a service. (21:00)

– Why pray “we” not “I”? (24:45)

– What about a Sunday evening prayer service? (25:15)

It’s tempting for a new pastor to show up with a laundry list of problems that need to be fixed. But that approach almost never works, and many have left churches worse off due to their hastiness in implementing change. To help pastors with this, Jonathan sat down with Mark to chat about how quickly a pastor should try to make changes in a church.

SHOW NOTES:

– You’ve said before that young pastors have great acuity, but poor depth perception. Can you explain that? (1:00)

– What kinds of mistakes do young pastors take? (2:40)

– How did you moderate the pace of change at the beginning of your time at CHBC? (5:50)

– Is “change nothing in your first year” good advice? (9:45)

– What should a pastor give himself to in the first year? Why is preaching so crucial? (13:00)

– Should a pastor deliberately set out to build relationships with those who are disagreeable? How much does that help? (15:55)

– Why should some pastors not practice church discipline right away? (18:00)

– How much does handing out books help? (19:50)

– Three areas of things that might change. (23:00)

Does the senior pastor—or the teaching pastor, or the lead pastor, or whatever title your church gives to the man who preaches most often—have more authority than other pastors, either in the pay of the church or not? Does he have a kind of different authority?

If you’ve served in a church with a plurality of elders, then you’ve felt tension over these questions. In order to help, Mark sat down with Jonathan to discuss the biblical warrant for a “senior” pastor, what his involvement looks in the church when he’s not preaching, and more.

SHOW NOTES:

– First things first: Is “senior pastor” a biblical designation? (1:00)

– What about the “co-pastor” model? (3:30)

– Why is it that the man who preaches most often will almost inevitably accrue the most authority within the congregation? (4:30)

– What is Mark’s involvement in the church, even when he isn’t preaching on Sunday morning? (5:15)

– Does Mark as senior pastor have “more authority” than other pastors, staff or non-staff? (6:15)

– How does a “senior pastor” set the direction for a church, either good or bad? (9:15)

– How does a pastor submit to other pastors? (11:15)

– What counsel do you have for associate pastors who disagree with their senior pastor? (13:25)

– How should he respond to a pastor who’s been heavy-handed? (17:25)

– Any advice for a new pastor with an established elder board? (20:00)

– How do you cultivate unity among elders? (24:00)

It’s a question countless pastors ask every single day: How can I grow my church?

In his new book WORD-CENTERED CHURCH, Jonathan Leeman offers a biblical answer to that question. In summary, God intends to grow his church through the proclamation of his Word—and once proclaimed, God intends for that Word to reverberate out from the pulpit and into the whole church’s life and ministry. WORD-CENTERED CHURCH encourages pastors and church leaders to resist the temptation of pragmatism and to instead build their churches on a more trustworthy foundation.

For this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Mark chatted with Jonathan about all this and more.

SHOW NOTES:

– What’s necessary for a church? Does it require a dependence on the Bible? (:30)

– If a church is built on the Word, what room does that leave for good deeds? (4:30)

– What’s the role of preaching? Why “Word-centered church” and not “Christ-centered church”? (6:20)

– When people think about worship, should they associate it strictly with music? (9:30)

– How does the Word reverberate throughout the church and its church’s life? (11:30)

– What do you say to the pastor who doesn’t spend time to study the Word? (13:15)

– In a church with a lot of nominal Christians, how should preaching being prioritized? (16:30)

– What’s Word-Centered Church all about, and how does it differ from Reverberation? (18:00)

These days, small groups are quite common. But are they enough for community and accountability? What’s the best way to do small groups such that they don’t interfere with the regular Sunday gathering?

Mark and Jonathan discuss these questions and more in the latest episode of Pastors’ Talk.


SHOW NOTES:

– Does Acts 2 describe small groups? (0:45)

– Is there a biblical precedent for small groups? (1:25)

– Is it new that churches build in their pastoring through small groups? (3:40)

– How much guidance should you give small groups? (6:40)

– What should small groups do? (10:40)

– Who should lead a small group? (12:00)

– Should non-members be in small groups? (13:30)

– Should small groups take the Lord’s Supper? (14:45)

– What do you say to the member who doesn’t really come to the Sunday gathering, but is very committed to their small group? (15:45)

Being “called” to ministry isn’t entirely personal, internal, and subjective. It involves both the individual and a church, an internal desire and external confirmation.

In this Pastors’ Talk episode, Jonathan asked Mark about common misconceptions of pastoral calling, how pastors can cultivate an environment where callings get tested, and the role of the church throughout.

SHOW NOTES:

– What does it mean that calling is both internal and external? (:30)

– Why would you slow a guy down who says, “I know I’m called to ministry”? (2:20)

– What do you say to someone who responds to your hesitation with, “But pastor, the Lord is leading me?” (5:00)

– What are some common errors churches make in discerning one’s sense of calling? (8:50)

– What’s a proper biblical understanding of calling in Scripture? How does it relate to vocation? (10:50)

– Who confirms a pastor? When you leave your church, are you still a pastor? (15:20)

– How does a man’s wife play into his calling as a pastor/elder? (16:40)

– How can a pastor cultivate a healthy environment to test young men and their calling to ministry? (19:05)

– Any general advice for those experiencing the call to ministry? (20:10)

– Is there a special calling for overseas missions? (23:50)

Does your congregation look like the people who live around it? If not, does it matter? How important is it that a church reflects its surrounding community?

For the latest Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman sat down with Mark Dever to chat about these questions and more.

SHOW NOTES:

– How hard should a pastor and a church work to reach different kinds of people? Changing music? Changing the way we preach or what we wear? (1:30)

– What about who’s up front? Who gets hired? For example, should white churches seek to hire non-white pastors in order to reach non-whites? (6:00)

– What counsel do you have for the pastor who leads a church that doesn’t look like its surrounding community? (10:15)

– In being deliberate about these things, isn’t there a risk of “inauthenticity”? (12:15)

– What’s the importance of a culture of discipling and evangelism, where members are consistently learning to love people across differences? (14:10)

– How should pastors be careful about the ways they speak publicly on these matters? (17:25)

Authority is God’s good and dangerous gift. Therefore, it’s of the utmost importance for pastors and church leaders to exercise their authority well, and in doing so image God.

SHOW NOTES:

– Why is authority such an under-talked about topic? (:45)

– Has authority been especially villainized in our current culture? (2:10)

– Are evangelicals any different in their views of the authority? (6:10)

– What is authority? (9:05)

– Why do you think a passage like 2 Samuel 23:3–4 is so important as we think about authority? What can they teach pastors today? (11:00)

– How does a pastor wield his authority well? (14:30)

– What’s the difference between authority and authoritarianism? (15:00)

– How can a pastor be pro-authority while also being anti-authoritarian? (17:05)

– Why is the abuse of authority so heinous? What does it look like for someone to abuse their authority, or to use it too aggressively? (19:45)

– How do you pastor those Christians who have only know the abuse of authority? (23:30)

How do we know what makes a good pastor? Do we learn this exclusively from the Bible? From the latest business books? Jonathan chats with Mark about what a pastor is, and what it means to take a pastoral approach to Christian ministry.

Jonathan chats with Mark about good and bad reasons to leave a church, and offers principles for leaving well once the decision has been made.

We just released a Journal with close to 20 articles on Pastoring Singles. Because the Journal was Mark’s idea, Jonathan sat down with him to ask questions on the topic.

SHOW NOTES:

– Why a Journal on singles? (0:40)

– What are the biggest challenges and benefits of pastoring singles (1:30)

– How do you simultaneously affirm marriage while not undermining God’s distinct purposes for singles? (3:20)

– When do you encourage someone to remain single? How do you encourage them to make the most of their singleness? (8:10)

– How can singles be integrated into a congregation? (12:15)

– What about single elders/pastors? (14:00)

– For the single who feels left out, what should a church do? (15:55)

– What do you do when you inherit a church with a robust singles program? (18:10)

– Why “your sex life is your identity” is a satanic lie. (20:45)

We live in politically contentious times. Jonathan Leeman sat down with Mark Dever to chat about how to pastor people faithfully amidst political disagreement.

SHOW NOTES:

– March us through how you pastored through the most contentious election in recent memory. (0:40)

– How preaching builds unity amidst political disagreement. (6:00)

– On the importance of upholding Christian liberty amidst personal, political disagreement (7:45)

– How can we discern “straight-line” issues from “jagged-line” issues? How do we know when to stay silent in order not to improperly bind consciences? (13:00)

– Can we sin by not addressing injustice when we should? (17:30)

– Do you address politically contentious members directly? (22:00)

– Lightning round of questions on the topic. (22:45)

If you’re a pastor, you’re used to being criticized—both fairly and unfairly. In this episode of Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan sits down with Mark to chat about receiving criticism well, the dangers of avoiding criticism altogether, and how to build into a church structures that cultivate a culture of giving and receiving godly criticism.

SHOW NOTES:

– What do you do when you’re criticized after church when you just preached your guts out? (1:15)

– How do you prepare yourself to hear what you know you need to hear, even if it’s something that your flesh will grate against? (4:40)

– Why not defending yourself amidst criticism is sometimes a good idea. (5:50)

– True or false: the more you fear God and the less you fear man, the better you will hear criticism. (9:40)

– What about the wisdom in using others—wife, other elders, etc.—to process current criticisms? (11:15)

– Do you have any words for the pastors who have cloistered themselves so that they never hear criticism? (12:35)

– What structures have you put in place to cultivate a culture of healthy criticism and encouragement? (14:40)

– Any encouragement for pastor who’s beaten up from consistent criticism? (16:00)

If a preacher is doing his job well, then he's not only explaining what a text means, but also applying that meaning to the lives of his hearers. In this episode of Pastors' Talk, Jonathan Leeman sits down with Mark Dever to talk about the difficult task of sermon application.

A mere ten years ago, social media didn’t exist. Now it’s everywhere. Jonathan Leeman sits down with Mark Dever to chat about the difficulties of pastoring in the age of social media.

SHOW NOTES:

– What are some of the dangers you see intrinsic to social media? (2:45)

– How social media can tempt Christians to add to the gospel (4:30).

– The necessity of humility in our opinions and our discourse (5:30).

– How Christians can become good self-editors? 12 diagnostic questions to continually ask ourselves. (8:00)

In the inaugural episode of our new podcast Pastors’ Talk, Jonathan Leeman sits down with Mark Dever to talk about seeing the gospel grow in your city, not just your church.

SHOW NOTES:

– What do you do when the revival you’ve been praying for breaks out . . . at the church down the street? (1:08)

– Is it always carnal to desire your own church to grow? (3:02)

– What are some of the signs of a wrongful “turfiness” that pastors should watch out for in their own hearts and ministries? (4:38)

– Why do you pray for other churches by name in CHBC’s services? (6:25)

– Explain how you can structure a staff and budget to help other churches. (8:35)

– What role might ministerial fellowships play in local gospel growth? (12:24)

– Are multi-site and multi-service churches necessarily “turfy”? (14:30)

– What about church planting and revitalizing? (18:49)

– Any last lessons for promoting gospel growth locally? (24:30)