Public Defenseless

RAND_RTI_Final_Report.pdf (pitt.edu)

During the Episode Dan, mentioned Racial Disparity in Allegheny County. Here is an additional note from him:

Additionally, I mentioned that half of all charges filed against Black people arise from a police initiated encounter. My phrasing could have been more precise as the paper refers to charges arising out of "Black neighborhoods" (as opposed to Black people) and I didn't mention the numbers in terms of the disparity between White neighborhoods, so I wanted to make sure your listeners had the exact language from the report:

(Pg. 47 of the report, pg. 91 of the document):

"In particular, charges that are filed in Black neighborhoods are almost equally likely to initiate from either a call for service or a low-priority law enforcement action (30% versus 27%). However, in the White matched neighborhoods, charges are more than twice as likely to originate from a call for service than from a low-priority law enforcement action (38% versus 17%)."

Additionally, the percentage of charges growing out of a police-initiated interaction is likely higher because, as the authors note (pg. 46):

"Thirty-two percent of the cases could not be matched to the 911 call data. As noted in the previous section, these are likely to be instances where law enforcement officers initiated an action but did not call it in. These unmatched cases are thus classified as unidentified law enforcement–initiated actions."

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

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Trying to find a specific part of an episode? Use this link to search transcripts of every episode of the show!

308 | How the Fear of Too Much Justice Keeps Our Legal System Cruel w/Stephen Bright

5 december 2024 | 66 min

307 | Why Are Prisoners at Virginia's Red Onion Prison Severely Burning Themselves? w/Phil Wilayto

4 december 2024 | 44 min

306 | Why it's Nearly Impossible to Hold the Government Accountable for Violating your Rights w/Joanna Schwartz

3 december 2024 | 68 min

305 | How Prosecutors Might get Rewarded for Messing Up the Harvey Weinstein Case w/Amanda Jack

27 november 2024 | 74 min

304 | One Step Forward and Two Steps Back Mississippi Public Defense w/Andre de Gruy

26 november 2024 | 59 min

303 | How A.I. Can Help Public Defenders Challenge Police and Prosecutors Part 2 w/Prabhas Pokharel

21 november 2024 | 64 min

302 | How A.I. is Helping Police and Prosecutors Surveil, Arrest, and Incarcerate People w/Andrew Ferguson

20 november 2024 | 79 min

301 | How A.I. Can Help Public Defenders Challenge Police and Prosecutors Part 1 w/IV Ashton

19 november 2024 | 63 min

300 | How Mitigation is Helping Veterans Escape the Criminal Legal System w/Nancy Farrell and Dee Miller

14 november 2024 | 62 min

299 | How NAPD is Fostering a National Forum for Public Defense Innovations w/Jeff Sherr

13 november 2024 | 38 min

298 |What the History of ULCA’s Police Department Tells Us About the Issues with Campus Police w/Andrew Guerrero

12 november 2024 | 46 min

297 | The Successes and Failings of Plea Bargaining in Europe w/Rebecca Shaeffer

7 november 2024 | 70 min

296 | How South Dakota is Fixing its Public Defense Crisis w/Aditi Goel

6 november 2024 | 66 min

295 | What Can be Learned About Plea Bargaining from Japan's Failed Plea Experiment w/Lucian Dervan

5 november 2024 | 66 min

294 | A Judicial Candidate Speaks Out Against Retaliation by a High Ranking Member of Oregon Public Defense w/Rachel Philips

31 oktober 2024 | 67 min

293 | Does Bail Reform Impact Crime Rates? w/Ames Grawert

30 oktober 2024 | 56 min

292 | How Participatory Defense Gets the Community Involved in the Courtroom w/Raj Jayadev

29 oktober 2024 | 69 min

291 | How the Innocence Project of New Orleans is Fighting to Keep the Innocent out of Prison w/Jee Park

24 oktober 2024 | 65 min

290 | How Louisiana's Governor is Reviving the "Super Predator" Myth to Police, Prosecute and Jail Young People w/Hannah Van De Car

23 oktober 2024 | 61 min

289 | The Horrible Direction Louisiana Public Defense is Headed Under its New Leadership w/Derwyn Bunton

22 oktober 2024 | 71 min

288 | The Problems and Potential for Utah's Patchwork Youth Defense System w/Pam Vickrey

17 oktober 2024 | 59 min

287 | How California Law Enforcement Agencies are Keeping Police Misconduct Hidden w/Katey Rusch

16 oktober 2024 | 58 min

286 | The Courts Giving Young People the Specialized Resources they Need to Succeed w/Paul Bowen and Jacqueline van Wormer

15 oktober 2024 | 62 min

285 | How the Civil Legal System Makes it Difficult to Hold Larry Nassar, the Catholic Church, and Other Powerful Organizations Accountable w/Parker Stinar

10 oktober 2024 | 66 min

284 | How Alabama's Fines and Fees Fail Criminal Defendants, Victims, and the Entire State w/Leah Nelson and Judge Stephen Wallace

9 oktober 2024 | 73 min

283 | The Restorative Justice Program Trying to Heal the Wounds of a Wrongful Conviction w/Jennifer Thompson and Jamie Lau

8 oktober 2024 | 71 min

282 | How a Former Public Defender Hopes to End Mass Incarceration as a Progressive Prosecutor w/Matthew S

3 oktober 2024 | 66 min

281 | How Philly Public Defenders Uncovered Systemic Abuses in the Philly Police Department w/Paula Sen and Michael Mellon

1 oktober 2024 | 72 min

280 | Why did the Stanislaus County Public Defender Say they Were Ready to Refuse Taking New Cases w/Jennifer Jennison

26 september 2024 | 69 min

279 | The Problems with Public Defense in Nueces County Texas w/Jessica Brand and Adrienne Johnson

24 september 2024 | 60 min

278 | The Systemic Corruption and Coverups at the Denver Sheriff Department w/Brittany Iriart and Andy McNulty

19 september 2024 | 66 min

277 | Venezuelan Gangs Haven't Taken Over Aurora, But What is Happening? w/Chase Woodruff

18 september 2024 | 80 min

276 | The Highest Law in the Land: How the Unchecked Power of Sheriffs Threatens Democracy w/Jessica Pishko

17 september 2024 | 73 min

275 | How NACDL is Helping Public and Private Defenders Fight Back Against New Oppressive Policies w/Lisa Wayne

12 september 2024 | 59 min

274 | Between 46%-99% of Colorado Public Defenders are Overworked. Why is the State Waiting Two Years for Workload Standards w/James Hardy and Kayleigh TenBarge

10 september 2024 | 100 min

273 | How the Junk Science "Excited Delirium" Shields Cops From Accountability w/Rachel Kincaid

5 september 2024 | 69 min

272 | The Challenges of Providing Holistic Defense in Rural North Carolina w/Beth Stang

4 september 2024 | 61 min

271 | How a Person Can Get Evicted for being the Victim of a Crime too Many Times w/Alex Kornya

3 september 2024 | 65 min

270 | What Was Happening in Grants Pass, Oregon Before the Supreme Court OK'd Criminalizing Homelessness w/Jeremiah Hayden

29 augusti 2024 | 76 min

269 | How Oklahoma is Giving a Second Chance to Criminalized Domestic Violence Survivors w/Alexandra Bailey

28 augusti 2024 | 68 min

268 | How the Los Angeles Public Defender Is Bringing Court to their Clients w/Ricardo Garcia and Marcus Huntley

27 augusti 2024 | 66 min

267 | How The Destruction of DNA Evidence Might Keep An Innocent Person Behind Bars w/Erica Nichols Cook

22 augusti 2024 | 62 min

266 | With a Conservative Supreme Court, Do State Courts Offer the Best Path for a Better Criminal Legal System? w/Kathrina (Kasia) Szymborski Wolfkot

20 augusti 2024 | 66 min

265 | The Problems with Public Defense in Guam w/Aditi Goel

15 augusti 2024 | 69 min

264 | How Police Academies Foster a Culture of Police Violence w/Samantha Simon

13 augusti 2024 | 69 min

263 | What Changes are Coming to Fix Maine's Public Defense Crisis? w/Jim Billings

8 augusti 2024 | 61 min

262 | How the Good Faith Exception is Eroding Our Right to Privacy w/Matthew Tokson

6 augusti 2024 | 59 min

261 | The Problems with Public Defense in Florida and Georgia w/Radley Balko

1 augusti 2024 | 79 min

260 | How the Lack of Independence Weakens Federal Public Defense w/Melody Brannon

30 juli 2024 | 55 min

259 | How the Threat of a Strike got Minnesota's Public Defenders a 25% Raise w/Bob Kolstad and Veronica Surges

25 juli 2024 | 72 min

258 | What Actually Happened to Minnesota's Legal and Public Defender System After the Murder of George Floyd w/Bill Ward

23 juli 2024 | 67 min

257 | If Another Person Confesses to a Crime, Why Can't Jurors Hear that Evidence? w/Sharon Turlington

18 juli 2024 | 89 min

256 | The Fight to Free a Man Convicted Because of One Cop's Perjury w/Jason Gain

17 juli 2024 | 64 min

255 | The Dangers of a Conviction Based on the Testimony of One Person w/Eric Tindal

16 juli 2024 | 58 min

254 | The Former Bronx Defender Campaigning to Bring Holistic Defense to Florida's 9th Judicial Circuit w/Lenora Easter

11 juli 2024 | 65 min

253 | The ACLU Lawsuit Seeking to Radically Change Pennsylvania Public Defense w/Vic Walczak and Veronica Miller

10 juli 2024 | 74 min

252 | The Rise, Fall, and Disbarment of Florida's Worst Chief Public Defender w/Andrew Pantazi

9 juli 2024 | 65 min

251 | What Can Save Pennsylvania Public Defense w/Sara Jacobson, Autumn Johnson, Samuel Encarnacion

4 juli 2024 | 92 min

250 | Why did the Bronx Defender's Union Vote to go on Strike? w/Tyler Johnson, Marlene Marte, Katherine Azcona

3 juli 2024 | 80 min

249 | Angela Chang and Brooke Burns: How Ohio Public Defenders Push Back Against the Return of the "Super Predator" Myth

2 juli 2024 | 67 min

248 | Scarlett Lewis: After Her Son was Murdered at Sandy Hook, One Mother's Fight to Reduce Violence by Choosing Love

27 juni 2024 | 63 min

247 | Chesa Boudin: Lessons Learned from San Francisco's Progressive Prosecution Movement

25 juni 2024 | 74 min

246 | Eric Whitcher: South Dakota's Small First Step to Statewide Public Defense

20 juni 2024 | 71 min

245 | Travis Finck: On the Brink of a Crisis, What can Be Done to Save North Dakota Public Defense?

18 juni 2024 | 65 min

244 | Grant Miller: The Utah Public Defender Campaigning to Bring Big Changes to the Utah State Legislature

13 juni 2024 | 75 min

243 | Duci Goncalves and Lael Chester: How Massachusetts is Re-imaging how the Criminal Legal System Treats Emerging Adults

11 juni 2024 | 61 min

242 | Eve Primus: The Hollowing Out of Miranda Rights, and What we Can Do About it

6 juni 2024 | 72 min

241 | Lucian Dervan: Why do Innocent People Plead Guilty, and What Does it Mean for Our Plea Bargaining System

4 juni 2024 | 65 min

240 | Adrienne Johnson: Can Gwinnett County Muster the Political Will to Solve their Public Defender Problems

30 maj 2024 | 62 min

239 | Elisabeth Pollock and Devshi Mehrotra: How the Champaign IL Public Defenders used A.I. to Revive their Office

28 maj 2024 | 61 min

238 | Patricia Warth: The Budget Moves Threatening Vital New York Public Defender Services

23 maj 2024 | 67 min

237 | Galit Lipa: The Fight to Get California to View Public Defense as a Public Good and not a Private Luxury

21 maj 2024 | 56 min

236 | Molly Gilbert and Jason Schwarz: How Washington is Implementing Public Defender Workload Standards

16 maj 2024 | 78 min

235 | Taylor Herbert: The Many Ways Oregon's Civil Commitment System Fails so Many

14 maj 2024 | 61 min

234 | Stephen Hanlon: Case Withdrawals, Federal Funding, and the Five Year Plan to Fix Public Defense in Oregon

9 maj 2024 | 63 min

233 | Lee Wachocki: With Almost 3k People Unrepresented, Why is Oregon adding More Cases to the Public Defender Crisis

7 maj 2024 | 69 min

232 | Robin Bernstein: The New York Prison that Started our For Profit Prison Industry

2 maj 2024 | 73 min

231 | Dorsey Nunn: From Banning the Box to Restoring the Right to Vote, One Man's Struggle for the Rights of the Current and Formerly Incarcerated

30 april 2024 | 62 min

230: The Voices of Victims and Survivors that Alabama Ignores and Neglects w/Leah Nelson and Callie Greer

25 april 2024 | 63 min

229: From a 25% Vacancy Rate to Nearly Zero, How the Montana Public Defender System Came Back from the Brink w/Brett Schandelson

23 april 2024 | 87 min

228: Why is this Vitally Important Forensic Science so Rarely Used by Defense Attorneys and the Legal System? w/Dr. Shameka Stewart

18 april 2024 | 66 min

227: AUDIO FIXED Where is the Ethical Limit for Zealous Criminal Defense Advocacy? w/Martín Sabelli

16 april 2024 | 68 min

226: Why Isn't a Cop Who was Indicted for Shooting an Unarmed Person Being Prosecuted? w/Andrew Darling

11 april 2024 | 63 min

225: Why Are People Being Found Not Guilty but Still Going to Prison? w/Andrea Jaeger

9 april 2024 | 72 min

224: How the DVSJA Gave Two Survivors of Domestic Violence a Second Chance w/Assia Serrano and Trinity Copeland

4 april 2024 | 67 min

Today, Hunter concludes the three-part series on criminalized domestic violence survivors by speaking with two women who survived, endured years of incarceration, and utilized the DVSJA to get a second chance at life. Trinity Copeland was sentenced to 25 years to life for 2nd degree murder and resentenced to time served and released in March 2023 under the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act (DVSJA), after serving approximately 11 years. She is currently a full-time college student majoring in Chinese Studies with a double minor in Spanish and French.

Assia Serrano was sentenced to 18 years to life for felony murder and was resentenced and released in April 2021 under the DVSJA, after serving 17 years. Shortly after, she was deported to Panama where she currently resides. Assia is a member of the Survivors Justice Project Advisory Group and an Osborne Speakers Bureau member who uses her personal experiences to advocate for criminal justice reform. She is a proud mother of two teenagers and a fierce advocate for her own and other children who have experienced parental incarceration.

Through their stories, Hunter hopes for people to understand what our legal system must change to stop perpetuating cycles of harm.

Guests:

Assia Serano, Survivors Justice Project Advisory Group and Osborne Speakers Bureau

Trinity Copeland, Full Time College Student

Resources:

NYILS Website

https://www.ils.ny.gov/

Survivors Justice Project

https://www.sjpny.org/

Background Material on the DVSJA

· Video: Background on DVSJA passage (somewhat dated)

· Some Legislative History (attached):

o 2017 sponsor memo

o Opposition letter by District Attorney Association of the State of New York

o NY Correctional Association response to DA opposition letter

· SJP DVSJA Resource Guide – we wrote this with incarcerated survivors/applicants as the primary audience

· SJP/Sentencing Project Report

· Abby Van Buren article on temporal nexus problem

· Favorable decisions:

o Brenda WW decision (“mutually abusive” relationship did not foreclose DVSJA relief; abuse history must be considered cumulatively; considered applicant’s extensive criminal history in context of her substance abuse, which was related to victimization)

o Patrice Smith decision (court must look at the “full picture” and contemplate cumulative impact of abuse)

o Liz L. decision (the fact that DV history was “factored in” to previous man 1 plea bargain did not make DVSJA resentencing inappropriate)

· Not so favorable:

o People v. Williams (abuse or abusive relationship must be “ongoing” at the time of the offense)

o People v. Fisher (adopting Williams’ temporal holding in case where trans-identifying young person had assaulted her parents, and no expert was called to attempt to explain connection between earlier physical abuse and offense)

o People v. B.N. (many bad holdings/antiquated approach to DV and trauma)

· People v. Addimando – a study in contrasts (note that Nicole Addimando was finally released from prison last week):

o Trial court decision (denying DVSJA relief at initial sentencing for murder 2 in a case with extensively documented abuse; sentencing Nicole Addimando to 19-to-life)

o Appellate decision (reversing and resentencing her to 7.5 years)

· Critique of the DVSJA by Survived & Punished

Some very optional reading, but good-to-know-about resources created by the DVSJA Statewide Defender Task Force:

· Best Practices Manual for DVSJA Investigations

· Guide to Working with Experts in DVSJA cases

· Introduction Guide to Coercive Control for the DVSJA Attorney

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Subscribe to the Patron

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ

Donate on PayPal

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· SJP/Sentencing Project Report

223: The New York Law Giving a Second Chance to Criminalized Domestic Violence Survivors w/Elizabeth Isaacs

3 april 2024 | 65 min

Today, Hunter continues the three-part series on criminalized domestic violence survivors by speaking with Elizabeth Isaacs, an appellate attorney with New York’s Office of Indigent Legal Services. Specifically, the two discuss the Domestic Violence Survivor’s Justice Act, a New York law designed to give post-relief to those whose incarceration is related to their victimization. While certainly not a perfect bill, it is an extremely important and necessary step to understand that people are not simply victims or perpetrators, and that we can attain justice while also acknowledging the humanity of those who did wrong.

Guests:

Elizabeth Isaacs, Appellate Attorney, NY Office of Indigent Legal Services

Resources:

NYILS Website

https://www.ils.ny.gov/

Survivors Justice Project

https://www.sjpny.org/

Background Material on the DVSJA

· Video: Background on DVSJA passage (somewhat dated)

· Some Legislative History (attached):

o 2017 sponsor memo

o Opposition letter by District Attorney Association of the State of New York

o NY Correctional Association response to DA opposition letter

· SJP DVSJA Resource Guide – we wrote this with incarcerated survivors/applicants as the primary audience

· Abby Van Buren article on temporal nexus problem

· Favorable decisions:

o Brenda WW decision (“mutually abusive” relationship did not foreclose DVSJA relief; abuse history must be considered cumulatively; considered applicant’s extensive criminal history in context of her substance abuse, which was related to victimization)

o Patrice Smith decision (court must look at the “full picture” and contemplate cumulative impact of abuse)

o Liz L. decision (the fact that DV history was “factored in” to previous man 1 plea bargain did not make DVSJA resentencing inappropriate)

· Not so favorable:

o People v. Williams (abuse or abusive relationship must be “ongoing” at the time of the offense)

o People v. Fisher (adopting Williams’ temporal holding in case where trans-identifying young person had assaulted her parents, and no expert was called to attempt to explain connection between earlier physical abuse and offense)

o People v. B.N. (many bad holdings/antiquated approach to DV and trauma)

· People v. Addimando – a study in contrasts (note that Nicole Addimando was finally released from prison last week):

o Trial court decision (denying DVSJA relief at initial sentencing for murder 2 in a case with extensively documented abuse; sentencing Nicole Addimando to 19-to-life)

o Appellate decision (reversing and resentencing her to 7.5 years)

· Critique of the DVSJA by Survived & Punished

Some very optional reading, but good-to-know-about resources created by the DVSJA Statewide Defender Task Force:

· Best Practices Manual for DVSJA Investigations

· Guide to Working with Experts in DVSJA cases

· Introduction Guide to Coercive Control for the DVSJA Attorney

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Subscribe to the Patron

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ

Donate on PayPal

Donate on Stripe

https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748

222: The Case for Decriminalizing Domestic Violence w/Leigh Goodmark

2 april 2024 | 74 min

221: ALAA's Ceasefire Resolution and the Fallout From it: Part II w/Sophia Gurulé and Pooja Patel

28 mars 2024 | 61 min

220: ALAA's Ceasefire Resolution and the Fallout From it: Part I w/Michael Letwin

27 mars 2024 | 74 min

RE-RELEASE: How Moral Injury, Stress, and Trauma Impact Public Defense with Jenny Andrews

26 mars 2024 | 78 min

Today is a re-release of my conversation with Jenny Andrews. It comes as a right before two episodes covering the ceasefire resolution put out by the UAW ALAA 2325 union that represents Public Defenders and Legal Aid Workers at the New York Legal Aid Society, the Bronx Defenders, Camba Legal Services, and much more.

Jenny Andrews is the Director of Training for California’s Indigent Defense Improvement Division. She’s here today to teach you what public defense is truly like from the defender’s side. Public defenders are often trapped between a rock and a hard place because they want to provide equal representation access, yet are expected to work too many hours for not enough pay. Because of this, “martyr complex” is prevalent in this field. You’ll learn that public defense is an area of service, but that this often comes at the expense of the defender’s mental health. Jenny will walk you through how she’s helping implement self-care practices into nationwide and why self-care is vital to providing zealous representation! Throughout this episode, remember that ultimately, it is the client who suffers when the public defender suffers in silence

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Jenny’s background and how she got started in public defense. [7:50]

Why Jenny burnt out and left the industry. [14:18]

Moral injury. [21:58]

Self-care in public defense. [26:32]

Secondary trauma. [33:36]

How Jenny has been building a culture of self-care. [42:50]

How individual offices are promoting self-care. [48:28]

The line between service and self-care. [53:14]

Guest:

Jenny Andrews, Director of Training, Indigent Defense Improvement Division, Office of the State Public Defender, California

Resources:

Be Sustained

https://besustained.org/

Body Keeps the Score

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Subscribe to the Patron

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ

Donate on PayPal

Donate on Stripe

https://www.uncommonlaw.org/

219: The Future Looks Bright for New Jersey Public Defense w/Jennifer Sellitti

21 mars 2024 | 68 min

218: The Cuyahoga County Youth Public Defenders Want More Cases, So Why Aren't They Getting Them? w/Nikki Baszynski

19 mars 2024 | 54 min

217: Securing Life over Death in the Aurora Theater Shooting Case w/Doug Wilson

14 mars 2024 | 84 min

216: How a Holistic Defense Team Filled Critical Gaps in D.C.'s Youth Legal System w/Penelope Spain

12 mars 2024 | 67 min

215: As States Criminalize LGBTQ+ People, How can Lawyers Fight Back? w/Richard Saenz

7 mars 2024 | 70 min

214: Even if You're Found Not Guilty, Iowa Makes You Pay for the Full Cost of Your Public Defender w/Alex Kornya

5 mars 2024 | 68 min

213: How Anecdotes and Fear are Driving Maryland to Undo the Juvenile Justice Reform Act w/Natasha Dartigue and Alycia Capozello

29 februari 2024 | 68 min

212: How Three L.A. Public Defenders Hope to Change the Legal System by Becoming Judges w/Ericka Wiley, George Turner, and Kim Repecka

28 februari 2024 | 83 min

211: The Danger Imperative: Violence, Death, and the Soul of Policing w/Michael Sierra-Arévalo

27 februari 2024 | 70 min

210: The Copaganda Fueling the Retail Theft Crisis that Never Was w/Brad Haywood

22 februari 2024 | 75 min

209: Sometimes to Fix a Public Defender System, You have to be Willing to Let it Fail w/James McDermott and Paul Chambers

20 februari 2024 | 69 min

208: Death by Design: The Death Penalty in Harris County, Texas w/Jessica Brand

15 februari 2024 | 62 min

207: How Public Defenders Can and Have Beaten Mass Immigration Prosecutions w/Eric Fish

13 februari 2024 | 64 min

206: What has Actually Happened Since Illinois Abolished Cash Bail w/Sharlyn Grace, Celeste Korando, and Victoria Kerr

8 februari 2024 | 103 min

205: The Washington Supreme Court Case Giving 500,000+ a New Chance at Freedom w/Grace O'Connor, Nat Jacob, and Kimonti Carter

6 februari 2024 | 93 min

204: One Journalist's Effort to Uncover the Rot in Kentucky's Legal System w/Taylor Six

1 februari 2024 | 67 min

203: How the Legal System Abuses and Ignores the Rights of Incarcerated People w/Kaelen Perrochet

30 januari 2024 | 64 min

202: Using the Carrot and the Stick to Improve Texas Public Defense w/Geoff Burkhart

25 januari 2024 | 67 min

201: The Fight Against Mass Immigration Prosecutions w/Kimberly Simmons and Jamie Spencer

23 januari 2024 | 72 min

200: The Problems with Public Defense in Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Alaska, and California w/Radley Balko

18 januari 2024 | 68 min

199: The Incredible Success of Missouri's Holistic Public Defense Program w/Annie Legomsky

16 januari 2024 | 59 min

198: Ending Mississippi's Criminal Law "Dead Zone" and the Challenge of Securing Public Defender "Wins" w/Andre de Gruy

11 januari 2024 | 66 min

197: Chipping Away at Virginia's Cruel Legal System, One Policy at a Time w/Rob Poggenklass, Andy Elders, and Ashley Shapiro

9 januari 2024 | 95 min

196: The Coalition Trying to Abolish the Death Penalty in Nevada w/Nancy Hart and Chris Peterson

4 januari 2024 | 77 min

195: Securing Life over Death in the Parkland School Shooting Case w/Casey Secor and Kate O'Shea

2 januari 2024 | 128 min

Thank You for the Past Year and the Year to Come

22 december 2023 | 9 min

194: Aurora City Council's Continued Effort to Disband the Public Defender Office w/Elizabeth Cadiz

21 december 2023 | 71 min

BONUS: Public Comment on the Privatization of the Aurora Public Defender

21 december 2023 | 26 min

193: What Went Right, What Went Wrong, and What is Next for Idaho Public Defense w/Kimberly Simmons and Paul Riggins

19 december 2023 | 69 min

192: The Rise of Big Data Policing and the Dangers of the Digital Age of Surveillance w/Andrew Ferguson

14 december 2023 | 68 min

191: The Digital General Warrants Encroaching on Your Right to Privacy w/Mike Price

12 december 2023 | 68 min

190: The Dangerous Expansion of Facial Recognition Technology w/Clare Garvie

7 december 2023 | 64 min

189: Why The Fourth Amendment Needs to Enter the Digital Age w/Jumana Musa

5 december 2023 | 59 min

188: If Law School Can't Solve the Shortage of Public Defenders, What Can? w/John Gross

30 november 2023 | 73 min

187: The Public Defender Take on the True Crime Podcast w/David Moore

28 november 2023 | 52 min

186: Why is our Legal System so Ethically Inconsistent w/Kaelen Perrochet

23 november 2023 | 62 min

185: The Compelling Case for Full Time Public Defender Offices in Rural California w/Lael Kayfetz

21 november 2023 | 64 min

184: Another Supreme Court Decision Stopping Innocent People from Getting Their Day in Court w/Alison Guernsey and Meredith Esser

16 november 2023 | 68 min

183: After Serious Positive Overhauls, What is Next For Delaware Public Defense? w/Kevin O'Connell

14 november 2023 | 66 min

182: Looking to Other Countries to Push Back Against the Cruelty of the American Youth Legal System w/Betsy Clarke

9 november 2023 | 59 min

181: The Partners for Justice Programs Sparking Change in Public Defense w/Rebecca Solow and Vichal Kumar

7 november 2023 | 79 min

180: After 17 Years of Incarceration, One Man's Fight to Radically Reimagine the American Legal System w/Sean Wilson

2 november 2023 | 65 min

179: The Cruel Past, Present and Future of Solitary Confinement w/Keramet Reiter

31 oktober 2023 | 65 min

178: How Does the Tennessee Youth Legal System Allow Judges to Make up Crimes and Illegally Jail Kids w/Christina Kleiser and Meribah Knight

26 oktober 2023 | 52 min

177: The Public Defender Policy Team Fighting Back Against San Francisco's Pro-Policing Agenda w/Angela Chan

24 oktober 2023 | 60 min

176: The Corruption and Coverup that Led to the Wrongful Conviction of Tim Wright w/Adam Deutsch

19 oktober 2023 | 49 min

175: How Iowa Makes People Pay for Their Public Defenders w/Darren Page AUDIO ISSUES CORRECTED

17 oktober 2023 | 69 min

174: How UnCommon Law Challenges California's Broken System of Parole w/Keith Wattley

12 oktober 2023 | 63 min

Joining Hunter today is Keith Wattley, the Founder and Executive Director of Uncommon Law. Keith and his team at Uncommon Law support people navigating California's discretionary parole process through trauma-informed legal representation, mental health counselling, legislative and policy advocacy, and in-prison programming led by those who have been through the process themselves. For decades, people have been aware of the pervasive bias that infects the parole system of California, but little has changed to address it. That’s where Keith and Uncommon Law come in.

Guests:

Keith Wattley, Founder and Executive Director, Uncommon Law

Resources:

Uncommon Law Website

Follow Uncommon Law on

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/uncommonlawyer/

Twitter

https://twitter.com/UnCommLaw

Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/UnCommonLaw/

1. The Compassion Prison Project has some great information about rates of trauma - in particular, childhood trauma - among people in prison, and the relationship between Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) and incarceration

2. The Sentencing Project has several really excellent reports about our country's enduring reliance on life sentencing, how ineffective these kinds of sentences actually are in promoting public safety, and the relationship between life sentencing and mass incarceration

3. Speaking of the Sentencing Project, Keith recently authored this op ed in The Crime Report with their Senior Director of Advocacy Nicole Porter, which explores similar ideas

4. The Justice Policy Institute recently released this analysis of Maryland's parole process, highlighting several of the same issues we see in California.

5. Similarly, there has been fairly regular coverage of the racial biases evident in New York's parole hearing decisions in recent years

6. Finally, feel free to check out this video series our organization put out last year; it explores cycles of violence from the perspectives of people who have both survived and caused harm, and gives a good sense of our work and messaging

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

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https://neighborhooddefender.org/locations/detroit/

173: Defending those that Protested Against Police Brutality and the Killing of Elijah McClain w/Amelia Power

10 oktober 2023 | 48 min

172: Manifesting Justice: How Wrongfully Convicted Women Reclaim Their Rights w/Valena Beety

5 oktober 2023 | 61 min

171: The Innocence Project's Future Fight Against Racial Bias and Emerging Junk Sciences w/Christina Swarns

3 oktober 2023 | 68 min

170: The NDS Harlem Union's Fight for a Fair Contract Amidst New York's Housing Crisis w/William Botchway, Naomi Schachter, Jeremy Tinsley

29 september 2023 | 83 min

169: How the Ever Expanding Pre-Trial Surveillance Impacts Alaska Public Defense w/Justin Racette

28 september 2023 | 60 min

168: Alaska's Brief Moment of Criminal Justice Reform and their Turn to Tough on Crime Policies w/Mike Garvey and Megan Edge

26 september 2023 | 66 min

BONUS: A New Database Providing Public Defenders the Latest Social Science Data for Court w/Eve Primus

25 september 2023 | 40 min

167: Rebuilding the New York Legal Aid Society's Union Strength w/Jane Fox

22 september 2023 | 73 min

166: How the Deck is Heavily Stacked Against Federal Public Defenders w/Colin Prince and Jay McEntire

21 september 2023 | 71 min

165: Will a New Data Driven Approach Be the Key to the Future for Montana Public Defense w/Brett Schandelson

19 september 2023 | 80 min

164: "Why Would You Even Ask That?" The Absurdity of America's Youth Justice System w/Iliana Pujols

15 september 2023 | 60 min

163: Imagining Something Better than Washington's Patchwork Public Defender System w/Larry Jefferson

14 september 2023 | 59 min

162: How the Georgia AG is using RICO to Punish Free Speech and Cop City Protesters w/Devin Franklin

13 september 2023 | 60 min

161: The NAPD's Plan to Leverage the National Workload Study for Policy Victories w/Cydni Sanchez

12 september 2023 | 63 min

160: Unveiling the National Public Defender Workload Standards and the Strategy to Implement Them w/Stephen Hanlon

12 september 2023 | 66 min

159: The Communication Breakdown Eroding Trust in the Colorado Public Defender System w/Kiyomi Bolick, Mike Kubicek, and Oliver Rose Katz

8 september 2023 | 89 min

158: What is Causing the Indiana Public Defender System to Fail w/Ashley Spolarich, Deana Martin, and Joel Schumm

7 september 2023 | 72 min

157: The Racist History of the "Child Welfare" System w/Ieshaah Murphy

5 september 2023 | 65 min

156: Death in Custody: How America Ignores the Truth and What We Can Do about It w/Jay Aronson

1 september 2023 | 71 min

155: How the NY Legal Aid Created a Digital Forensics Unit to Push Back on the Power of Police and Prosecutors w/Jerome Greco

31 augusti 2023 | 66 min

154: Putting the Genie Back in the Bottle: Why the Use and Expansion of RICO is Bad w/Martin Sabelli

30 augusti 2023 | 60 min

153: The Coalition Fighting to End the Trial Penalty w/Martin Sabelli and Nathan Pysno

29 augusti 2023 | 75 min

152: The Political and Personal Agenda Behind Governor DeSantis' Removal of State Attorney Monique Worrell w/Andrew Darling

25 augusti 2023 | 58 min

151: Without Trust Between Client and Counsel, Litigation is Limited w/Alexander Kostal

24 augusti 2023 | 66 min

150: To Fix Detroit Public Defense, There Must be a Fair Contract for the Neighborhood Defender Services of Detroit w/Cait De Mott Grady, Tom Molina-Duarte, Jonathan Roberts

22 augusti 2023 | 96 min

In back-to-back years, the Sixth Amendment Center revealed that Public Defense in Detroit was failing. Both the contract and institutional Public Defender were failing to provide competent counsel in every case. For the largest city in Michigan, the future seemed dire. Then, the Neighborhood Defender Services extended their non-profit Public Defender Model to the city, and for the first time in a long time, there was a glimmer of hope for holistic defense in Detroit. Joining Hunter to speak about the challenges, trials, and hope for a better future for Detroit Public Defense is Cait De Mott Grady, Jonathan Roberts, and Tom Molina-Durate from the NDS Detroit Union. As with most union episodes, the demands of the union are similar: better pay for core staff and meaningful restrictions on workload. Hopefully, the contract negotiations will support the struggling workers of NDS Detroit and provide a spark for the continued improvement of Public Defense in Detroit.

Guests:

Cait De Mott Grady, Staff Attorney and Union Member, NDS Detroit

Jonathan Roberts, Staff Attorney and Union Member, NDS Detroit

Tom Molina-Duarte, Social Worker and Union Member, NDS Detroit

Resources:

NDS Detroit

Sixth Amendment Center Wayne County Reports

https://sixthamendment.org/wayne-county-report/

https://sixthamendment.org/wayne-county-report-2019/

Follow the Union on Twitter

https://twitter.com/NDSUnion

Follow the Union on Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/ndsunion/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Subscribe to the Patron

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ

Donate on PayPal

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https://civilrightscorps.org/

BONUS EPISODE: Another Not Guilty Podcast: Murder-ring The Prosecution's Theory w/David Moore and Hillary King

21 augusti 2023 | 103 min

149: It's Time to Abolish the Legalized Theft that is Civil Forfeiture w/Dan Alban

17 augusti 2023 | 77 min

148: Jury Nullification, Conscientious Acquittal, and the Fight To Regain Jury Independence w/Clark Neily

15 augusti 2023 | 62 min

147: Because of its Systemic Indifference to Suffering, Oklahoma Keeps Punishing Domestic Violence Survivors w/Colleen McCarty and Leslie Briggs

11 augusti 2023 | 63 min

146: The Fulton County Jail, Cop City, and the Deafening Silence of the Georgia Public Defense Council w/Devin Franklin

10 augusti 2023 | 70 min

145: What Led to the Unionization of Maryland Public Defense w/Edie Fortuna and Jose Teneza

8 augusti 2023 | 85 min

144: The Campaign to Close Rikers Island w/Richard Willstatter and Stan German

4 augusti 2023 | 65 min

143: The Never Ending Torture of Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri at Guantanamo Bay w/Annie Morgan

3 augusti 2023 | 59 min

142: The Fight for Human Rights at Guantanamo Bay w/John Baker

1 augusti 2023 | 63 min

141: The Horrifying Surveillance Tech Coming to a Neighborhood Near You w/Dhruv Mehrotra

28 juli 2023 | 48 min

140: How to Use the Appellate System to Push Back on the Family Policing System w/Annick Lenoir-Peek

27 juli 2023 | 69 min

139: The Race and Class Dynamics Haunting the Connecticut Family Policing System w/Josh Michtom

25 juli 2023 | 69 min

138: The Driving Force Behind the Growth of Santa Barbara Public Defense w/Deepak Budwani

20 juli 2023 | 78 min

137: How the Civil Rights Corps is Uncovering and Challenging Prosecutorial Misconduct w/Peter Santina

18 juli 2023 | 56 min

Today, Hunter spoke with Civil Rights Corps’ Attorney Peter Santina to discuss their efforts in uncovering and challenging prosecutorial misconduct. From Alleghany County to San Francisco County, Peter and his team are those leading the charge in revealing the negligence, maleficence, and misconduct of prosecutors around the country. This episode, however, does offer a reminder that all of their actions are enabled by judges, politicians, and legal ethics bodies that sit by and do nothing to hold prosecutors accountable for their actions.

Guests:

Peter Santina, Managing Attorney of the Prosecutorial Accountability Project, Civil Rights Corps

Resources:

To do something about this, and raise awareness of this continuing racial discrimination, CRC worked with our AccountabilityNY professor partners to prepare and file 10 complaints against prosecutors alleging court findings of racial or religious discrimination. CRC also publicized the fact that an attorney for the NYPD union had once been a prosecutor who used a handwritten guide of racist and sexist tropes to select juries, leading to three reversals. Journalists at the Gothamist, The City, Queens Daily Eagle, and Davis Vanguard each wrote original stories about the discrimination complaints. CRC attorney Bina Ahmad appeared on WBAI radio and WNYC radio with Dexter Murray, a man personally victimized by this form of discrimination. Mr. Murray's powerful op-ed ran in the NY Daily News.

In San Francisco, nearly 1,000 people are past their last day for speedy trial, over 100 of whom are incarcerated, awaiting an unknown trial date. In a particular pending case, the San Francisco Public Defender’s Office asked the California Supreme Court to intervene and restore people’s speedy trial rights. In support of this petition, CRC filed an amicus brief to explain to the justices how the denial of speedy trial rights turns an already-flawed system of plea bargaining into a system of plea begging and unfairly extends the already-oppressive conditions of pretrial detention. CRC await the California Supreme Court’s decision.

The prosecutor’s choice to pursue or dismiss charges is one of their greatest powers and is ripe for abuse. As over 90 percent of criminal cases resolve by plea bargain, recent reports have exposed the troubling lack of transparency and oversight in this plea bargain system (2020 Vera Institute Report) and that innocent people plead guilty to crimes they did not commit (2023 American Bar Association Task Force Report).

In March 2023, the longtime Allegheny County District Attorney, Stephen Zappala, was in a contentious primary battle for reelection against the Chief Public Defender, who was also running for District Attorney. It was reported that after Zappala did not secure the Democratic Committee’s nomination, a supervisor in his office gave line prosecutors instructions that referenced the election. In the following days, two prosecutors were reported to refused to dismiss weak charges, and each prosecutor cited the election—and Zappala’s endorsement loss—in their explanation. CRC worked with two legendary professors, David Rudovsky (Penn Carey School of Law) and Jules Lobel (University of Pittsburgh School of Law), to prepare and file an ethics complaint with the Disciplinary Board of the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania against Zappala. We included a 2021 incident where Zappala ordered his prosecutors to not offer any plea bargain to clients of a Black defense attorney who had criticized his office. A journalist at the PGH City Paper wrote about the complaint, interviewing Peter.

Civil Rights Corps

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Subscribe to the Patron

https://www.paypal.com/donate/?hosted_button_id=5KW7WMJWEXTAJ

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http://harriscountypublicdefender.org/

136: If You Cannot Afford an Attorney, One Will not Be Appointed to You w/ Dr. Andrew Davies, Dr. Victoria Smiegocki, and Shelby Sirivore

13 juli 2023 | 75 min

135: While She Breathes, She Hopes for a Better Future for South Carolina Public Safety w/Cameron Blazer

11 juli 2023 | 80 min

134: The Colorado Bond Law Enriching the Bail Bond Industry w/Katie Yens

6 juli 2023 | 60 min

133: The Tech Solutions that can Propel Public Defense into the Future w/Rocky Ramirez

4 juli 2023 | 68 min

132: Autonomy to Decide: Managing an Effective Defense with a Challenging Client w/Randy Fiedler and Stacy Newman

29 juni 2023 | 62 min

131: How to Solve the Public Defender Shortage in Rural America w/Patrick Crowley, Michael Naughton and Jonathan Sacks

27 juni 2023 | 96 min

130: Poverty, Prison, and a Path to Redemption w/Champ Napier

22 juni 2023 | 62 min

129: It's Time to Value Paralegals and Social Workers as much as Attorneys w/ Latosha Watts and Taneal Behrens

20 juni 2023 | 67 min

128: Fostering the Public Voice of the Public Defender w/Kay Levine and Russell Gold

15 juni 2023 | 76 min

127: Secrets of the Killing State: How the Truth of Lethal Injection Could End the Death Penalty w/Corinna Lain

13 juni 2023 | 73 min

126: From Portland to Klamath Falls, Public Defense in Oregon is on Life Support w/Lee Wachocki and Eve Costello

8 juni 2023 | 82 min

125: You Might Go to Prison Even Though You're Innocent w/Justin Brooks

6 juni 2023 | 66 min

124: The Many Ways Alabama Denies People a Second Chance After Leaving Prison w/Stacey Fuller and Kathleen Henderson

1 juni 2023 | 69 min

123: How a Vicious Union Busting Campaign Could Cripple Louisville Public Defense w/Cat Vining and Morgan King

30 maj 2023 | 78 min

122: How the Municipal Public Defenders of Aurora, Colorado Fight Back Against Incompetence, Corruption, and Malpractice

26 maj 2023 | 45 min

121: 50 Shades of Grey Goes to Court: How to Present BDSM and Non-Monogamy in Court w/Jill Weinberg

25 maj 2023 | 65 min

120: The Bronx Defenders' Transformation from Scabs to Unionization w/Babatunde Aremu

23 maj 2023 | 65 min

119: Representing Youths is Just as Important as Representing Adults, and It's Time Public Defense Acted Like it w/Mary Ann Scali and HyeJi Kim

18 maj 2023 | 70 min

118: When Student Loan Payments Get Turned Back on, What Will Happen to Public Defense? w/Jane Fox and Kyle Morris

16 maj 2023 | 84 min

117: How the King County Public Defender Union is Becoming a Player in Washington Politics w/Elbert Aull

11 maj 2023 | 73 min

116: The Promise and Problems of Progressive Prosecution w/Keisha Hudson, Mano Raju and Ricardo Garcia

9 maj 2023 | 82 min

115: Is There a Better Way to Provide Public Defense w/James McDermott and Paul Chambers

4 maj 2023 | 68 min

114: How A Coalition of Prosecutors, City Attorneys, and Public Defenders Produces Better Working Conditions w/Alexandra Pray

2 maj 2023 | 67 min

113: A Broken Legal System, A Lack of Health Care, and How the US Keeps Puerto Rico Under its Thumb w/Diego Alcala

27 april 2023 | 65 min

112: How Mitigation Confronts the Biases of Jurors, Judges, Prosecutors, and Public Defenders w/Victoria Rusk

25 april 2023 | 59 min

111: A New Path for Public Safety in San Francisco w/Mano Raju

20 april 2023 | 92 min

110: The Paper Prisons that Keep Millions of Americans From a Second Chance w/Colleen Chien and Alyssa Aguilar

18 april 2023 | 69 min

109: What are a Lawyer's Ethical Obligations to Society? w/David Siegel

13 april 2023 | 69 min

108: One Investigators Efforts to Revitalize Public Defense in Barron County, Wisconsin w/Felicia Tempel

11 april 2023 | 66 min

107: Non-Capital Mitigation and the Quest to Inject Empathy into the Law w/Lindsay Bendell

6 april 2023 | 51 min

106: How Unionization Enables Public Defenders to Get Victories in and Out of Court w/Garret Miller and Brooke Longuevan

4 april 2023 | 69 min

105: Why it is so Difficult to Get the Innocent out of Prison w/Daniel Medwed

30 mars 2023 | 67 min

104: Unlocking the Potential of Public Defense in LA County w/Ricardo Garcia

28 mars 2023 | 67 min

103: How Public Defense is Failing in the West w/Emily Hamer

23 mars 2023 | 70 min

102: How the Delaware Law Enforcement Bill of Rights Keeps Cop Misconduct Hidden w/Kevin O'Connell, Misty Seemans, and Elliot Margules

21 mars 2023 | 96 min

101: Reflecting on Gideon v Wainwright, the Past, Present and Future of Public Defense w/Justine Olderman and Wes Caines

17 mars 2023 | 78 min

100: Do Sex Offender Registries Make Us Safer? w/David Garlock

16 mars 2023 | 69 min

99: There is no Public Defense Without Investigators w/Jon Lyon

14 mars 2023 | 75 min

98: Making the Case for the Abolition of Court Fees w/Priya Sarathy Jones

9 mars 2023 | 72 min

97: A Reason to Hope for Connecticut Public Defense w/TaShun Bowden-Lewis

7 mars 2023 | 69 min

96: How to Include the Formerly Incarcerated in Public Defense w/Anthony Graves

2 mars 2023 | 63 min

After spending 18 years behind bars for a crime he did not commit, Anthony Graves hopes he can start a movement of getting more people with experience with the legal system involved in Public Defense. As the Director of Community Outreach for the Harris County Public Defender Office, Anthony is helping to bridge the gap between Public Defenders and the clients they represent. With crushing caseloads and minimal resources, Public Defenders cannot always provide the type of care that each of their clients need. While we may understand that this is more a product of a failing public defender system than the indifference of the attorney, the client only sees that their needs are not being met. From there, trust, with the client and the community, can easily erode. This is where Anthony steps in.

Few people know the needs of those currently accused of a crime quite like those who have spent time trapped in the legal system. Yet, many who serve as Public Defenders are unable to fully relate to the plight of their clients. With the help of Anthony and his Peer Navigators, Public Defenders can fill this critical knowledge gap and move one step closer to true holistic representation.

Guest:

Anthony Graves, Director of Community Outreach, Harris County Public Defender Office

Resources:

Harris County Public Defender Office

Anthony’s Website

https://www.anthonygraves.org/

Follow Anthony on Twitter

https://twitter.com/anthonycgraves?lang=en

Email Anthony

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/jeff-blackburn-obit-texas-attorney-tulia-drug-bust-17755009.php

In Memorium of Jeff Blackburn

NAPD Conference Sign Up

https://napd2023riseresistrepresent.sched.com/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

https://www.nycourts.gov/ip/indigentdefense-commission/IndigentDefenseCommission_report06.pdf

95: Why it's Time to Abolish Felony Murder Laws w/Nazgol Ghandnoosh

28 februari 2023 | 65 min

94: Where Will Maryland Public Defense Go With A New Chief Public Defender w/Natasha Dartigue

23 februari 2023 | 65 min

93: Why it is Time to Move Away from Assigned and Contract Public Defense Models w/Eve Primus

21 februari 2023 | 92 min

92: The Important Role Public Defense Played in New Jersey Bail Reform w/Joseph Krakora

16 februari 2023 | 70 min

91: If Iowa Public Defense is About to Collapse, What is Happening in Juvenile and Immigration Defense w/Rachel Antonuccio and Julia Zalenski

14 februari 2023 | 71 min

90: In Order to Review Hours of Video Evidence, Public Defenders Need New Tech w/Devshi Mehrotra

9 februari 2023 | 59 min

89: How to Pass on the Lessons from a 20+ Year Public Defender Career w/Andre Vitale

7 februari 2023 | 70 min

88: The Most Important Public Defense Victories Don't Happen in the Court Room w/Sam Allison Natale

2 februari 2023 | 66 min

87: How to Make the Case for Public Defense in a Conservative State w/Diane Lozano

31 januari 2023 | 71 min

86: The Resurrection of New York Public Defense w/Patricia Warth

26 januari 2023 | 80 min

For decades, activists, scholars, and attorneys decried the state of public defense in New York. Report after report uncovered a broken system that underpaid public defenders and contact attorneys alike as the state shirked its responsibility to adequately support the counties in their effort to provide counsel to the poor. Even after a landmark study, mandated by the state’s chief justice, it would take another decade and a lawsuit from the NYCLU, to finally start the process toward reform.

For much of her career, today’s guest zealously advocated for poor clients facing the death penalty. As such, Patricia Warth was able to see first-hand the incredibly positive impacts that a well-funded, well-staffed public defender office could have on the lives of the accused and the community writ large. Today, her experience as a death penalty lawyer informs her work as the Director of the New York Office of Indigent Legal Services. While not fighting battles in the courtroom, Patricia is still caught in a daily struggle to help legislators from around the country understand the necessity for the state to continue to expand its support for public defense. With her incredible experience at nearly every level of public defense in New York, Patricia is the perfect guest to help us understand what we can learn from the rehabilitation of New York’s Public Defense System.

Guest:

Patricia Warth, Director, New York Office of Indigent Legal Services

Resources:

2006 Reports on New York Indigent Defense

https://www.nycourts.gov/ip/indigentdefense-commission/SpangenbergGroupReport.pdf

Hurell-Harring Settlement Implementation

https://www.ils.ny.gov/node/56/hurrell-harring-settlement-implementation

https://www.ils.ny.gov/files/Statewide%20Counsel%20at%20Arraignment%20Report%20Year%202%202020.pdf

State of Injustice: How New York State Turns its Back on the Right to Counsel for the Poor”

https://www.nyclu.org/sites/default/files/publications/nyclu_hh_report_FINAL.pdf

NY ILS website

https://www.ils.ny.gov/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

https://www.recidiviz.org/

85: The Challenges Public Defense Faces in Rural Georgia w/Michael Smith

24 januari 2023 | 62 min

84: How Anne Arundel County, MD Prosecutors Over Incarcerate the Community w/Felipe Gonzalez

19 januari 2023 | 58 min

83: The Everyday Citizens Uncovering Oklahoma Police and Prosecutor Misconduct

17 januari 2023 | 56 min

82: The Tech NonProfit Accelerating People Out of the U.S. Justice System w/Serena Chang

12 januari 2023 | 60 min

Across the country, outdated and disconnected data systems keep thousands of people stuck in prison or on community supervision long after they should technically be free. Today, Hunter spoke with Serena Chang, a product manager at Recidiviz, a tech nonprofit working to solve this problem and make the criminal justice system fairer, smaller, and more effective.

As discussed in the episode with Jason Tashea, the legal system is slow to incorporate new technology. Yet for States and organizations around the country, it’s becoming obvious they can no longer operate a legal system based on individuals enter data by hand or relying on the memory of a few overworked officials. This is where Recidiviz enters the conversation. Tune in to hear how Serena and Recidiviz craft individualized, yet scalable solutions that aim at reducing the power and reach of the American prison industrial complex!

Guest:

Serena Chang, Product Manager, Recidiviz

Key Topics:

Serena’s journey to Recidiviz [5:00]

The Problems facing the legal system [6:35]

How to craft solutions and how they worked in Idaho [14:25]

How states get introduced into Recidiviz’ work [23:04]

How Recidiviz works on policy [25:10]

Ensuring increasing efficiency does not simply increase the efficiency of incarceration [28:37]

Preventing the states from using data collected to implement more pro carceral policy [31:27]

Ensuring equal access to tools [34:05]

Plans for expansion [36:10]

How to access Recidiviz’ pre-existing tools [38:35]

Data Protection [40:35]

What would happen if bad/illegal behavior by the state came to light [42:30]

Trends Recidiviz noticed in their data collection [44:25]

Goals for organization [46:58]

How to start partnership [49:15]

Offering solutions that do not increase the size and power of the Department of Corrections [51:40]

Working with a PD Office [54:20]

How to learn more and identify problems [56:22]

Resources:

Recidiviz

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

https://www.law.georgetown.edu/tech-institute/programs/judicial-innovation/

81: How to Craft Ethical Tech Solutions to the Many Issues with the Legal System w/Jason Tashea

10 januari 2023 | 64 min

On this episode, Hunter spoke with Jason Tashea to discuss the exciting intersection of tech and the legal system. As the Director and Co-Founder of the Georgetown Judicial Innovation Fellowship, Jason is constantly thinking about ways to ethically integrate technology into the legal world. As an institution predicated on tradition, precedent, and intentionally inefficient legal protections, the legal profession has been incredibly slow to adopt the forward thinking, efficiency mindset so prevalent in the tech world.

It is the juxtaposition of the two that sits at the center of today’s conversation. How do we ensure that the efficiency goals of tech don’t trample the rights of others? How do we make sure that the vitally necessary data collection practices are implemented safely without privacy violation? All these questions and more are explored in this episode!

Guest:

Jason Tashea, Director and Co-Founder of the Georgetown Judicial Innovation Fellowship

Key Topics:

How Jason’s Career got him here [5:40]

Where does the use of tech currently stand in the legal profession [7:50]

Access to Justice Gap [9:28]

Understanding the difficulties of a public-private partnership [13:41]

Lessons from other countries [16:22]

Data Privacy Concerns [19:56]

What policies need to be implemented to ensure equal access to new tech [23:50]

Balancing tech’s desire for efficiency with the law’s inefficient legal protections [27:05]

More ethical issues with law and tech [34:50]

Faith in reforms [38:13]

Limiting power of centralization of data [40:40]

The Fellowship [45:10]

Pushing for an Open Source Environment [52:00]

Getting into the Fellowship [53:00]

What Public Defenders can do to get more tech solutions [56:00]

Resources:

Links for Judicial Innovation Fellowship

https://twitter.com/JIFGeorgetown

https://www.linkedin.com/company/judicial-innovation-fellowship/

Justice as a Platform

https://law.mit.edu/pub/justiceasaplatform/draft?access=wd47u265

A Human Rights Approach to Justice Technology Procurement

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4246039

How the US can Compete with China on digital justice technology

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/how-the-u-s-can-compete-with-china-on-digital-justice-technology/

Talk Justice Podcast

https://legaltalknetwork.com/podcasts/talk-justice/

Code for America

https://codeforamerica.org/

Legal Hackers

https://legalhackers.org/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

https://www.yolocounty.org/government/general-government-departments/law-justice/public-defender

80: Staff Assaults, A Decade in Solitary, and the Many Horrors of Massachusetts' Prisons w/Elizabeth Matos

5 januari 2023 | 76 min

79: What Could Yolo County Public Defenders Do if They Weren't Funded $16 Million Less than the Prosecutors? w/Tracie Olson

3 januari 2023 | 73 min

While not a small county, Yolo County California does not have the size or resources to match the major metropolitan areas of San Francisco, Oakland, L.A., or Sacramento. Yet somehow, Tracie Olson, Chief Public Defender Yolo County, and her team at the Yolo County Public Defender Office are able to maintain a strong holistic public defense practice.

Despite a $16 million dollar budget shortfall compared to the prosecutors, Tracie has been able to establish her office as a pillar in the community. If the county and the state of California were to finally fund the office at even 85% of what the prosecutor’s office received, the health and safety of Yolo County could reach heights no one thought possible!

Guest:

Tracie Olson, Chief Public Defender, Yolo County Public Defender Office

Key Topics:

How Tracie got started in Indigent Defense [8:30]

Demographics and layout of Yolo County California [13:25]

Where the Yolo County Public Defender Office sits California’s Public Defense System [15:30]

Funding disparity between California Prosecutors and Public Defenders, and what Tracie can do despite the disparity [17:43]

Community Response to the disparity in Prosecutor and Public Defense Funding [21:20]

The impacts of the “tough on crime” media narratives over the past few years on Yolo County [27:50]

Trying to address the housing issue in Yolo County [37:30]

What can’t the Yolo County PD office do because of the funding shortage and how is the community hurt as a result [41:25]

Making Public Defense more than a “check box” system [48:20]

Yolo County PD community outreach programs [54:45]

What does California need to do to support public defense? [1:05:45]

Resources:

Yolo County Public Defender Office

Yolo County Public Defender Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/YoloPublicDefense/?modal=admin_todo_tour

Yolo County Public Defender Twitter

https://twitter.com/yolopubdefense

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Sixth Amendment Center Reports

78: What's Plaguing Public Defense in Oakland County Michigan and New Hampshire? w/David Carroll

23 december 2022 | 106 min

Why are some state’s public defense systems so strong while others are so weak?

This week, Hunter speaks for a second time with David Carroll, the Executive Director of the Sixth Amendment Center. David highlights a handful of reports that his organization conducted in an attempt to improve the public defense systems of many different states.

First, David talks about Oakland Michigan, a now strong system because of the Sixth Amendment Center’s findings. Then, he’ll go into a weaker system—New Hampshire. Taking you through the ins and outs of this complicated government, you’ll learn exactly why change in this state has been so difficult.

Hunter and David end the episode by delving into the Illinois and Lake County, California reports and how the Sixth Amendment has improved the systems in these locations as well.

This episode highlights the fact that systems can still be bad even with well-intentioned individuals at the helm. However, David will instill you with true hope that positive change is on the horizon.

Key Topics/Takeaways:

Qualifications and independence for attorneys in Oakland. [15:53]
Attorney compensation in Oakland. [21:45]
Recommendations and results in Oakland. [33:20]
The structure of indigent defense in New Hampshire. [41:33]
Attorney compensation in New Hampshire. [54:04]
Non-lawyer prosecuters. [59:19]
The nonprofit state public defender and conflict system. [1:07:20]
Caseloads in New Hampshire. [1:10:17]
Recommendations for New Hampshire. [1:17:23]
The Illinois report. [1:24:28]
The Lake County, California report. [1:32:21]
A 2022 public defense wrap up + David’s hope for the future. [1:38:47]

Guest:

David Caroll, Executive Director, Sixth Amendment Center

Resources:

Race to the Bottom Michigan

Memorable Quotes:

“Systems in America, whether that be indigent defense or otherwise, do not need to have a bad person running them for them to fail. In fact, it can be even more difficult for well-intentioned people to correct a system that they are responsible for because it is so much harder for them to see past their own good intentions.” (2:40, Hunter)

“People don't even see it anymore. It's ethical blindness right in front of them. And so it takes a group like ours to come in and hold a mirror up and say, no, look at what's actually playing out in all these things.” (24:43, David)

“Now that we've solved the compensation issue, once those plans get implemented and in place, once caseloads can be enforced, I think Michigan's well on the way to being one of the better systems in the country.” (39:28, David)

“I think a lot of people that want criminal justice reform think that criminal justice systems were rationally constructed. Like someone sat down and said, this is the best way to do it for us. And it's absolutely not the case. It's just piecemeal.” (1:08:22, David)

“I am hopeful. I am the eternal optimist. You can't be doing this work for over 25 years and not be hopeful.” (1:39:10, David)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

https://liftlouisiana.org/

77: The Fallout of the Dobbs Decision on Louisiana Reproductive Healthcare w/Gwyneth O'Neill, Ellie Schilling and Michelle Erenberg

21 december 2022 | 125 min

Since its inception, Supreme Court decisions play a terrifying role in controlling the lives of Americans. Few decisions in living memory now play a greater role than the overturning of Roe v Wade.

To understand the impacts of Dobbs v Jackson, Hunter is joined by three guests from the state of Louisiana. Gwyneth O’Neill is an associate at the law firm Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin. Ellie Schilling is a partner at the same law firm and serves on the board of the non-profit LIFT Louisiana that Michelle Erenberg is the co-Executive Director.

For decades, anti-abortion activists fought tooth and nail to see Roe v Wade overturned, but now that it is, those same activists are demonstrating a fundamental disregard for the impacts of their actions. With healthcare in a precarious situation around the country, the short sightedness of the activists in paraded throughout the episode.

By going through the history of abortion denying access in the state and the many contradictions in the current laws, Hunter hopes to equip every listener, attorney or not, with the tools needed to push back against those seeking to turn Reproductive Healthcare back to 1865.

Guest:

Gwyneth O’Neill, Associate, Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin

Ellie Schilling, Partner, Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin, Board Member Lift Louisiana.

Michelle Erenberg, Co-Executive Director, Lift Louisiana

Key Topics:

How everyone got involved in Reproductive Justice [6:04]

S.B8 Texas [20:20]

Evolution of Anti-Abortion Laws [26:00]

The impacts of changing the definition of when life starts [33:00]

The difficulty of anticipating what comes next with all of the contradictions in the law [49:30]

How does the Legislature respond to the hypocrisy [51:00]

Chilling effects on Drs and other unintended consequences [55:30]

Crisis of Healthcare [1:03:00]

How Lift LA tries to appeal to voters [1:14:00]

The severe lack of expertise from policy makers ;1:17:00]

Criminal Defense Preparing for these cases [1:24:00]

Reporting Standards for Doctors [1:36:00]

Connecting communities with the resources needed to fight back [1:42:00]

What else can the defense bar do to prepare [1:47:00]

Resources:

Lift Louisiana

Follow Lift Louisiana on Twitter

@liftlouisiana

Here's a link to the Abortion Defenders sign up form bit.ly/AbortionDefendersLA

Schonekas, Evans, McGoey and McEachin

https://www.semmlaw.com/

ACLU

https://www.aclu.org/

https://www.aclu.org/other/links-other-reproductive-freedom-sites

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

76: Trying to Keep Public Defense in North Dakota from Collapsing w/Travis Finck

16 december 2022 | 63 min

Right now, a three-attorney public defender office in North Dakota has zero attorneys on staff. And with public defender turnover rates on the rise, the state makes it difficult to provide legal representation for all.

In this episode, Hunter speaks with Travis Finck, the Executive Director of The Commission on Legal Counsel for Indigents (CLCI). He brings with him an infectious optimism and deep knowledge of North Dakota public defense.

The first half of the episode will teach you all about the formation of the public defense system in North Dakota and how it transformed into what it is today.

Then, he’ll dive into the unique challenges within the public defense and criminal system of the state. Travis will share how he is responding to high turnover rates and low funding while trying to improve public defense in North Dakota for the better.

With only 20-30% of individuals charged with misdemeanors in the state getting public defenders, it’s obvious that many people are going without needed legal representation. Travis dreams of a day when North Dakota can boast a great public defender system.

Key Topics/Takeaways:

Travis’s background in public defense. [5:49]
The creation of the North Dakota public defense system. [9:20]
Hourly rates and statutory caps. [12:42]
Turnover rates. [23:24]
The bail system in North Dakota. [35:56]
North Dakota determination standards. [43:28]
Recoupment fees. [54:09]
Where Travis wants public defense to go in North Dakota. [58:52]

Guest:

Travis Finck, Executive Director, The Commission on Legal Counsel for Indigents (CLCI)

Resources:

CLCI Website

Memorable Quotes:

“We like to think we have good people, and when you can't pay good people what they're worth, there's natural inclination for them to look elsewhere. And I don't fault them for it.” (24:19, Travis)

“Justice delayed is justice denied.” (33:06, Travis)

“Us not being able to staff that office is not a public defense issue. That's a criminal justice system-wide issue.” (39:41, Travis)

“The people that are doing this work, sure as hell ain't doing it for the money. We're doing it because it's the right thing to do.” (40:18, Travis)

“My personal position on the fees is it's the only constitutional right that I'm aware of that's conditioned upon paying a fee.” (56:19, Travis)

“I don't wanna be known as a sufficient public defense system. I wanna be known as a great public defense system.” (59:44, Travis)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

http://alabamaappleseed.org/a-bitter-pill/

75: Opioids, Addiction, and the Alabama Despair Machine w/Leah Nelson and Stacey Fuller

14 december 2022 | 67 min

For many, the hearing about the opioid epidemic invokes images deindustrialized towns in West Virginia and Kentucky, but it was actually Alabama with the highest rate of per capita prescription.

Today on the show, Hunter Spoke with Leah Nelson, Research Director at Alabama Appleseed, and Stacey Fuller, a Certified Recovery Support Specialist, to discuss the impacts of opioids and addiction in the state of Alabama.

As with most states, Alabama approached addiction not as a illness to be treated, but as a wrong to be punished. For decades, the state failed to provide resources to those battling with addiction and sought to criminalize such behaviors. Predictably, this did little to curb crime, addiction, or overdose deaths.

While it may not happen overnight, Leah and Stacey are certain that by continuing to highlight the issues facing the state, they will be able to turn the state towards a more rehabilitative model.

Guest:

Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed

Stacey Fuller, Certified Recovery Support Specialist

Key Topics:

How Stacey became involved with the legal system [6:30]

Leah sets the stage for how Alabama approaches the problem of addiction [7:45]

How the system makes addiction more prevalent [13:45]

What is happening at the legislature that enables this? [18:53]

What Stacey provides to people fighting addiction [27:40]

Inroads made with judges and prosecutors to seek non punitive solutions [31:20]

Cost of Addiction in Alabama [33:00]

What has Opioids shown about other drug use in the state [38:45]

How to ensure we don’t redo the war on drugs [42:41]

Lack o trust in the system [49:40]

Moving Alabama forward [53:00]

Alabama Felon Registration Card [59:40]

Resources:

Alabama Appleseed Bitter Pill Report

Empire of Pain: The Secret History of the Sackler Dynasty

https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Pain-History-Sackler-Dynasty-ebook/dp/B08ND91K6G

Addiction Treatment Centers Alabama

https://americanaddictioncenters.org/treatment-centers/alabama

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

74: How Public Defenders can Take Back the Public Safety Narrative w/Emily-Galvin Almanza and Danielle Hopkins

9 december 2022 | 63 min

In this episode, Hunter is joined by two inspiring guests from Partners for Justice, a nonprofit organization dedicated to providing support services to people facing criminal charges while helping public defenders protect people from incarceration and other criminal penalties.

Emily Galvin Almanza is the Founder and Co-Executive Director of Partners for Justice, as well as an advocate in the Harris County Public Defender Office. Starting this organization, which is the only one of its kind in existence, she brings insights into its mission and goals. She’ll share how holistic representation affects recidivism rates and why it is so effective.

Then, you’ll hear from Client Advocate Danielle Hopkins about how she supports her clients by telling their stories and putting the narrative back into their hands. By forcing judges and prosecutors to see her clients as whole people, carceral outcomes have declined.

Finally, you’ll learn about cash bail in Harris County and why it is so problematic. In fact, it’s causing some innocent people to sit in prison for over a year!

Emily and Danielle dream of a world where people in the indigent system always have top-notch representation. Overall, their work helps people become unstuck from the legal system, turning lives around and saving valuable resources.

[Editoral Note: At the end of the episode, Danielle mentioned SB 26. She was actually refering to SB 6. Furterhmore, the amount of time people spend in Pre-Trial is now commonly ranging from 160-250 days]

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Emily and Danielle’s background. [4:17]
What Emily looks for in a client advocate. [12:31]
What Danielle has learned from her time as a client advocate. [18:02]
Danielle shares success stories. [28:02]
How holistic representation has affected recidivism rates. [31:40]
Pushback to holistic representation. [36:36]
Danielle’s advice to people who want to work in her role. [39:53]
Where Emily wants the program to go and the roadblocks to getting there. [42:52]
Assigned council. [47:36]
Problems with cash bail. [54:05]

Guests:

Emily Galvin Almanza, Founder and Co-Executive Director Partners for Justice

Danielle Hopkins, Partners for Justice Advocate

Resources:

Partners for Justice

Follow Emily on Twitter

Memorable Quotes:

“Once you see the sausage getting made, I think it's hard to ever want to eat it again.” (20:51, Hunter)

“People who are sitting in jail today cannot wait for policy approaches that accept their suffering as a necessary cost of system change. I think part of an abolitionist approach has to be fighting for radical change, the erasure of an oppressive and racist system in a way that does not accept the non-consensual suffering of others as a necessary cost.” (22:37, Emily)

“I feel that this work is actually crucial to undermining the system's ability to perpetually exist as it does. And I feel that we are dismantling it. We're just dismantling it in ways that perhaps are too subtle for people to notice.” (26:40, Emily)

“Governments are willing to invest in their public defender once they fully understand what public defenders can do.” (36:16, Emily)

“I like completing things and like achieving something and doing this role, I feel like I'm tangibly doing something for clients as opposed to like feeling like I'm just constantly not able to do anything.” [40:29, Danielle)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

https://sixthamendment.org/6ac/6AC_utahreport.pdf

73: How a Sixth Amendment Center Report Sparked Change in Utah Public Defense w/Richard Mauro

7 december 2022 | 65 min

Today, Hunter spoke with Richard Mauro, Executive Director of the Salt Lake City Legal Defender Association, to talk all things Utah Public Defense.

Not even a decade ago, Utah and Pennsylvania stood as the last two states who provided exactly zero dollars towards Public Defense. As expected, this created a patchwork system in the state that left places like Utah and Salt Lake County able to afford full time public defense offices while the more rural areas of the state were forced to rely on the cheapest flat rate contract imaginable.

As a result of these flat rate contracts, a culture of met and plea arose. Surprisingly, it was the absence of appeals, despite countless stories of ineffective assistance of counsel, that drove people to start evaluating Public Defense in Utah. As alarm bells started going off, the Sixth Amendment Center’s 2015 report made even more issues come to light.

By the end of this episode, you will have a clear understanding of what has gone right, wrong, and what sparked the change in Utah Public Defense.

Guest:

Richard Mauro, Executive Director, Salt Lake City Legal Defender Association

Key Topics:

How Richard got into Public Defense [5:30]
Differences in Federal Public Defense and Utah’s Public Defense [6:54]
Utah Public Defense Before Sixth Amendment Center [8:51]
How did the lack of Appeals show issues with Utah PD [11:30]
Major findings of the 6AC Report [14:12]
How the politics of SLC help Public Defense [18:00]
What calculus went into the structure of Utah Public Defense? [22:50]
How does the structure of Utah politics help Public Defense? [26:18]
How does the Utah Public Defense grant system work? [29:03]
Keeping the grant money coming [31:55]
Long term goals of the system [38:45]
Salt Lake City Public Defense successes and challenges [42:57]

Resources:

SLDA Website

https://www.sllda.com/

Sixth Amendment Center Report

Utah Indigent Defense Commission

https://idc.utah.gov/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

72: Why it is Time to End Life Sentences w/Alexandra Bailey and Nazgol Ghandnoosh

2 december 2022 | 64 min

Most people believe that life sentences keep people safe, but the evidence actually points to the opposite. In fact, life sentences were never originally designed to last for life.

In this episode, Hunter speaks with two individuals from the Sentencing Project: Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment Alexandra Bailey and Senior Research Analyst Nazgol Ghandnoosh.

They will share evidence to support their claim that safer communities can be created without harsh sentencing. Then, they’ll explain ways that life imprisonment and mandatory minimum negatively affect both families and the criminal system as a whole.

Alexandra and Nazgol both agree that life without parole should be abolished completely, and they’ll give you more effective alternatives that could be implemented instead of harsh sentencing.

By the time you’re done listening, you’ll be questioning whether the United States has gone too far when it comes to sentencing.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Nazgol shares her background. [5:36]
Why life sentences aren’t actually helpful. [7:13]
Tough on crime. [9:05]
How lengthy sentences have impacted the criminal system. [12:49]
Extreme sentences and age. [20:19]
Why life without parole sentences should be abolished entirely. [41:42]
Mandatory minimums. [47:30]
Alternatives to harsh sentencing. [53:25]

Guests:

Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment, Sentencing Project

Nazgol Ghandnoosh, Senior Research Analyst, Sentencing Project

Resources:

Sentencing Project

Lawanda Hollister

Memorable Quotes:

“The death penalty needs to be abolished. It's a barbaric, antiquated punishment that does not serve any function in a modern, civilized society at all. It's gotta go away.” (1:22, Hunter)

“If policing and incarceration made a nation safe, this would be the safest nation on earth.” (9:53 Alexandra)

“When you imprison someone for decades on end, you are holding people incarcerated who are no longer a public safety risk. In several cases like this, the person who they harmed or the survivors of their crime no longer want them to even be incarcerated. But the system's hands are tied by mandatory sentencing policies.” (16:25, Nazgol)

“If mandatory minimums and these extreme sentences are not working, and they're not, then we need to figure out what we're gonna do about it.” (27:52, Alexandra)

“Life sentences and extreme sentences are not only ineffective, but they're actually counterproductive. They're preventing us from actually pursuing policies that would effectively reduce crime rates and prevent future victimization.” (42:54, Nazgol)

“People are human and I think we have to look at this whole system with a lot more compassion.” (55:01, Alexandra)

Contact Hunter Parnell:[email protected]

Haiti https://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/29/international/americas/haitis-president-forced-out-marines-sent-to-keep.html

71: Every Public Defender Office Needs an Immigration Attorney w/Raha Jorjani

30 november 2022 | 71 min

Raha Jorjani is an Immigration Defense Attorney in Alameda County, home of California’s first public defender Immigration Representation Unit. Because our immigration law is founded on the principle that deportation is a civil issue and not a criminal proceeding which, there are few immigration specific public defender units. This denies millions of people the basic right of public defense.

This episode covers the ideals of America and how our government is willfully disregarding its responsibility to help the people fleeing the countries we have destabilized. Raha shares her personal experience working with clients who may appear like criminals on paper but are often victims of wider circumstances enacted by our own government. To tell their story without those crucial details is not just dishonest but dehumanizing.

Raha hopes that by sharing these stories and making Americans aware of the reality of what immigrants go through, just to have the opportunity to plead their case, we can break down these antiquated systems. Her office is the first of its kind and is being replicated across the country, hopefully to one day become the standard. America is founded on the principle that all men are created equal so it is up to us to ensure that includes the right to due process, evidentiary hearings and access to counsel. Without these standards of human treatment we are failing as Americans.

Key Takeaways:

[7:27] Raha’s journey into the role of removal defense attorney

[11:00] Providing seamless representation from one system to the next

[12:40] The distinction between criminal versus civil protections

[19:00] How the needs of non-citizens differ from citizens within criminal proceedings

[25:30] The difficulty comes in conveying the complicated information accurately to the client

[30:00] How policies have changed through each administration

[39:00] The Department of Homeland Security is using detention as a litigation tool

[46:10] The burden to prove why you should be given the opportunity to remain in America

[50:00] Offering asylum for our benefit and not on principle

[53:50] Walter’s case: The consistent failings of our legal system

[60:30] The opportunity we have to make a positive change

Guest:

Raha Jorjani, Deputy Public Defender and Supervising Supervising Immigration Defense Attorney, Alameda County Public Defender Office

Resources:

Alameda Public Defender Office Immigration Unit https://publicdefender.acgov.org/Immigration.page

Patel v Garland https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/596/20-979/

Fong Yue Ting v. United States https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/149/698/

Demore v Kim https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/538/510/

Jennings v Rodriguez https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/583/15-1204/

Silent Holocaust Guatemala https://cja.org/what-we-do/litigation/the-guatemala-genocide-case/

Manufacturing Consent by Edward Sherman and Noam Chomsky (El Salvador) https://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499

Somoza Family Dynasty of Nicaragua https://www.brown.edu/Research/Understanding_the_Iran_Contra_Affair/n-background.php

Chilie https://www.tni.org/es/node/1362

The Jakarta Method by Vincent Bevins (Indonesia, Brazil and many others) https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Method-Washingtons-Anticommunist-Crusade/dp/1541742400

CIA Secret War (Laos and Cambodia) https://warontherocks.com/2017/02/the-secret-war-that-transformed-the-cia/ https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/511185078/america-in-laos-traces-the-militarization-of-the-cia

Iran https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690363402/how-the-cia-overthrew-irans-democracy-in-four-days

Title The Story of Walter Cruz-Zavala

The Long Campaign to Deport Walter Cruz-Zavala (theintercept.com)

https://theintercept.com/2022/09/20/walter-cruz-zavala-el-salvador-state-of-exception/

Memorable Quotes:

“In the immigration system, the government can put you behind bars and then tell you it’s your burden to prove. They don’t have to justify why they imprisoned you. You have to justify why you should be free. So you have to prove why you’re not a danger to the community, you have to prove that you’re not a flight risk and Hunter, that's people who are eligible for bond.” [33:40]

“The power of detention is ultimately used as a litigation tool by the Department of Homeland Security. This is one of the only areas where, if you win, you stay in.”[39:30]

“When people end up in the deportation system, it is almost always after they have been dealt with by the criminal legal system. So even to the extent that people believe in the criminal legal system and the need for accountability and punishment; the double irony is that these folks have already been through that system, so they’ve already served their time.” [43:40]

“Our relationships with countries define how we view people. So, if we don’t agree with a certain country’s position, we tend to welcome people from those countries because we basically want to further entrench the idea that what’s happening there is bad. Whereas other people from other countries could be facing similar types of persecution or violence and we have very many closed door policies.” [50:24]

Contact Hunter Parnell:

https://www.amazon.com/Usual-Cruelty-Complicity-Criminal-Injustice/dp/1620975270

70: Challenging America's Punishment Bureaucracy w/Alec Karakatsanis

25 november 2022 | 40 min

Today, Hunter spoke with Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director of Civil Rights Corps, for a discussion about dismantling America’s punishment bureaucracy. With his work at Civil Rights Corps, Alec brought to light the immense human suffering caused by the punishment bureaucracy by highlighting the stories of people caught in it and then pushing massive class action lawsuits.

This model of story collecting, storytelling, and then systemic challenges is one the Alec hopes public defender offices around the country will replicate as the success his organization gets in challenging cash bail becomes more widespread.

However great the successes have been, the bureaucracy will not crumble with a few cuts here and there. Alec, like many of Hunter’s previous guests, calls for more systemic level thinking, systemic level challenges, and implores those with exposure to the usual cruelty of our legal system to collect and share those stories. With enough of those stories, Alec believes the heart’s and minds of attorney and non-attorney alike will change and embrace a more just, equitable, and fair legal system

Guest:

Alec Karakatsanis, Founder and Executive Director, Civil Rights Corps

Key Topics:

Alec’s Career [5:30]
Changing the Heart’s and Minds of attorneys and non-attorneys about our legal system [7:44]
The balance Public Defenders strike between the current case and the future one [24:58]
The issues with Legal Academia [29:58]
How to bridge the gap between different parts of the political left [33:40]

Resources:

Usual Cruelty by Alec Karakatsanis

Civil Rights Corps

https://civilrightscorps.org/

Accountability New York

https://accountabilityny.org/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

Center for Family Representation New York

69: The Need for Holistic Family Representation w/Center for Family Representation New York

23 november 2022 | 60 min

When the whole family is involved, it can make all the difference.

In this episode, Hunter speaks with three inspiring individuals out of Family Representation New York—Parent Advocate Supervisor Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Social Work Supervisor Ysmerlyn Murshed, and Senior Staff Attorney Vasili Stotis.

Each one plays a very specific and important role within their organization, and they explain how they work together to make a positive difference for families in their own ways. Through this, you’ll see that specialization can be a strong superpower for everyone involved in public defense.

Then, they’ll give you a sneak peek into what public defense is like in New York and the unique challenges it brings. Through the city funding many of Family Representation New York’s programs, they are making an investment into the long-term healing of families and the system as a whole.

This is a model that many of the smaller public defense offices are moving towards, and hopefully, with time more of the bigger offices can get the resources they need to put this in place. But for right now, New York serves as the perfect example of how investing in families benefits everyone.

Key Topics/Takeaways:

Teyora, Ysmerlyn, & Vasili share their backgrounds. [4:26]
What their office does and the roles they fill. [7:09]
Why specialization works so well. [11:41]
Client reactions to their structure. [16:43]
How being in New York City affects their work. [23:58]
Why early intervention is so important. [34:04]
Funding. [37:56]
Ways they create a space for people to be heard. [45:34]
How civil courtroom and civil proceedings are used against families. [50:24]
What they hope to see in the future. [52:58]

Guests:

Teyora Graves-Ferrell, Parent Advocate Supervisor

Ysmerlyn Murshed, Social Work Supervisor

Vasili Stotis, Senior Staff Attorney

Resources:

Just Making a Change for Families

Is N.Y.'s Child Weldfare System Racist? Some of its own workers say yes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/nyregion/nyc-acs-racism-abuse-neglect.html

Memorable Quotes:

“I do this work because at one point in my life, I was a part of this work.” (5:57, Teyora)

“Public defense and everything around criminal defense or civil defense and all these things representing people is teamwork. It's a team effort. And when you don't have that team, it doesn't work well.” (6:58, Hunter)

“Sometimes we are the first people to listen to our clients' stories without judgment, without blaming or shaming them. So I definitely think that makes a big impact and a big difference on how we are showing up.” (19:52, Teyora)

“A lot of the systems in place are racist systems and that can be difficult to express in a courtroom. People don't want to hear that. And even though the systems themselves are built off of these racist policies a lot of judges and a lot of prosecutors don't want to deal with that.” (32:09, Vasili)

“Anyone can be impacted. We've represented case workers, we've represented doctors, nurses, parole officers. In some ways, while the system can target certain communities, it doesn't discriminate.” (Ysmerlyn, 53:52)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Inclusion-Membership-American-Liberalism/dp/0823262421

68: Why do we Punish People? w/Kaelen Perrochet

21 november 2022 | 64 min

Why do we punish people? What are the goals of punishment and the legal system? At some point in time, we stopped asking ourselves these questions and it led to a legal system that is disjointed, inconsistent, and unnecessarily cruel.

Today, Hunter spoke with Kaelen Perrochet, a Law Student at UCLA Law School, to dig through some of the philosophical underpinnings of any criminal legal system.

For many, people will say that we punish people because it is what they deserve, but what should our legal system look like if that were the actual justification for punishment? For others, we punish people to deter others from committing crimes, but does punishment deter anyone? Rehabilitation and restoration sound good, but can they functionally create a consistent system that people are willing to accept as being legitimate?

All these questions and more will be explored in this awesome episode about the purposes of punishment!

Guest:

Kaelen Perrochet, Law Student, UCLA Law School

Key Topics:

Why study the Philosophy of Law and Punishment [5:30]
What changed through studying these topics [8:30]
Retribution theory [11:05]
Deterrence Theory [16:00]
Rehabilitation Theory [20:00]
Restorative Theory [23:00]
Issues with Prosecutors under various theories [26:45]
Where has restorative and rehabilitative models been used? [29:35]
Is punishment necessary? [33:00]
Does incarceration make us safer? [38:00]
Other theories [41:46]
Felon Disenfranchisement and its impacts [45:45]
What do each of these theories look like when taken to their logical conclusions? [54:30]

Resources:

Punishment and Inclusion by Andrew Dilts

Punishment by Thom Brooks

https://www.amazon.com/Punishment-Thom-Brooks/dp/0415431824

Philosophy of Law: A Very Short Introduction (Very Short Introductions) by Raymond Wacks

https://www.amazon.com/Philosophy-Law-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0199687005

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

@PDefenselessPod

How Lubbock became the model for Indigent Defense

67: Managed Assigned Counsel: A Savvy Solution or a Simple Stop Gap? w/Jim Bethke

18 november 2022 | 69 min

Can a managed assigned council system be a workable solution to indigent defense problems?

Jim Bethke is the former executive director of the Texas Indigent Defense Commission and the current director of the Managed Assigned Counsel Office in San Antonio. In this episode, he talks about the system that he helped create and the areas he thinks still need work.

There are three main types of indigent defense representation delivery models: full-time public defender, office contract counsel, and assigned counsel. Texas relies heavily on assigned council, and there are both pros and cons to that. Jim explains why the system is structured this way and its strengths and weaknesses.

Then, he talks about the impressive work he’s doing in San Antonio to ensure fair representation for all and the ways his office is supporting behavioral health intervention.

Overall, Jim has an incredibly vast career in public defense and a wealth of knowledge to give. After listening, you’ll finally know your take on assigned council in public defense.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Background on Jim’s career in public defense. [6:03]
What surprised Jim when he took over the Texas Indigent Defense Commission. [23:16]
Why Texas has managed assigned council. [25:46]
Reasons some of the larger Texas cities don’t have a public defender office. [32:22]
Pay rates. [38:22]
Behavioral health programs. [44:01]
What is happening in response to Dobbs. [56:49]
Where Jim wants to see the future of Texas public defense go. [1:04:23]

Guest:

Jim Bethke, Director, Managed Assigned Counsel Office, Bexar County, Texas

Resources:

Public Defense Innovation in Texas Law Review

Bexar County Managed Assigned Counsel

Memorable Quotes:

“We are the voice of the poor. They have no voice.” (23:00, Jim)

“A managed assigned council program in many regards is more challenging to run than a public defender office because you're utilizing private attorneys. They're independent contractors, and you can encourage and you can promote and you can provide support, but you can't really direct their operations like you can with an employee.” (27:33, Jim)

“Some folks in the private bar are not that good, but you have also some incredible talent. And if you can get that incredible talent to participate as part of your either managed assigned or private defender, in some regards, you're going to have even better than a public defender.” (35:24, Jim)

“In the numbers that we're dealing with in rural Texas, it's not going to break the bank to get a constitutionally compliant system that's good and fulfills our constitutional and state law requirements.” (55:28, Jim)

“Your rights are only as good as you can defend them in a court of law.” (56:38, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:[email protected]

https://www.aclu.org/other/racist-arrests-tulia-texas

66: Is Incrementalism Enough to Fix the Criminal Legal System w/Jeff Blackburn

16 november 2022 | 77 min

Can people incarcerated afford to wait for small, gradual change? What happens to the people incarcerated if the system breaks? What is the right balance between the needs of the current case vs the needs of the future case? How do Public Defenders counter the decades long strategy of the Conservative legal movement with their own strategy?

All these questions, and more, are pondered by Hunter and his guest today, Jeff Blackburn. During his career, Jeff worked as a criminal defense attorney, impact litigation lawyer and helped to found and operate the Texas Innocence Project. Through it all, Jeff’s aimed to foster and execute a strategic vision for indigent defense and civil liberties that counter’s the work of prosecutors and police. In his eyes, public defenders and other justice minded individuals are in the conflict business and the must learn to value the future battles as much as the current ones. To fail to do so will leave them fighting a battle against an enemy that already made the fight unwinnable, but what is the right balance?

Hopefully, this discussion and the myriad of questions that arise from it will spark your own thinking about how to move towards more strategic levels of thinking.

Guest:

Jeff Blackburn, Criminal defense and Impact attorney, Co-Founder, Texas Innocence Project

Key Takeaways:

Jeff’s career [8:30]
What is impact litigation [16:24]
Victory in the Tulia Case and the Lesson’s learned from it [17:20]
The Texas Innocence Project [21:54]
Impacts of the Tim Cole Case [26:00]
Learning strategy from the history NAACP Legal Fund [28:30]
Countering the Conservative Legal Movement [33:38]
Is Incrementalism Enough [38:30]
How to balance current case vs future case [46:00]
The structural/historical obstacles in many state [53:20]
What happens if the system breaks [57:40]
Is education the way to solve this [1:01:00]
The case for hope [1:10:00]

Resources:

Tulia Case:

https://www.austinchronicle.com/news/2002-04-19/85638/

https://www.myplainview.com/news/article/5-million-settlement-reached-in-Tulia-lawsuit-8757623.php

https://www.salon.com/2003/04/09/tulia_2/

Tim Cole’s Case

https://innocenceproject.org/cases/timothy-cole/

Jeff Calling out Dallas’ Wrongful Conviction Issues

https://innocenceproject.org/deconstructing-dallas-the-county-with-more-dna-exonerations-than-any-other/

Why Jeff Left the Innocence Project

https://www.sacurrent.com/news/texas-innocence-project-founder-quits-accuses-colleagues-of-selling-out-2440927

More of Jeff’s Work

austinchronicle.com/news/2008-04-04/608555/

Contact Hunter Parnell:

USA Today Coverage of those left behind after Ian

65: What Happened to the Prisoners Stuck in Jail During Hurricane Ian? w/Kathy Smith

14 november 2022 | 47 min

For Public Defenders who serve in coastal areas, the story on toady’s show will be all too familiar. As Hurricane Ian barrelled toward the Florida coast, a state of emergency was declared and evacuation plans started to come together, but as is almost always the case, no one thought of those incarcerated.

Today, Hunter spoke with Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender in the 20th Judicial District of Florida, to discuss the impacts of the storm on those left in jail. Dating as far back as memory allows, state’s failed their obligations to protect the lives of people both in and out of jail when natural disasters strike, and Hurricane Ian was no exception. For days, people, many of whom were in jail simply because they could not afford to pay bail, lived with raw sewage and without clean drinking water.

Luckily, no one died from the state’s neglect, but this episode serves as a powerful warning and reminder for those with a duty to protect people’s lives: when a natural disaster strikes, remember the people who cannot evacuate and think of a way to keep them alive.

Guest:

Kathy Smith, Chief Public Defender, 20th Judicial District, Florida

Key Takeaways:

How Kathy got into this work [6:50]
Historical response to natural disasters in the 20th District [10:50]
The response to Hurricane Ian in the 20th District [12:34]
Who was in the Ft Meyer’s jail and what conditions did they face [18:27]
Why pre-trial release is so important [24:42]
Impacts and the way forward after Ian [26:41]
Does Florida care about the Constitution or just the part it likes? [31:00]
Changes for the Future [34:43]
People arrested during the storm [38:00]
Advice to other Public Defenders [41:20]

Resources:

More Coverage on Ian

Miami New Times Coverage

People left in prison during:

Hurricane Ike, Maria, Matthew, Irene etc.

Contact Hunter Parnell:

64: How Public Defense can Win the Media Battle w/Maggie Shepard

11 november 2022 | 61 min

How can journalists and public defenders work together to bring awareness to the real issues plaguing our court system? Today, Hunter spoke with Maggie Shepard, Director of Communications at the New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender, to discuss how public defenders can use media relations to deepen their connection with the community they are working to protect.

A policy can only be effective if it has adequate momentum behind it and with most offices unwilling to comment publicly, it makes it difficult for the public to fully grasp the issues. There is a lot of bureaucracy in our court system but it does serve a purpose, to protect the rights of the accused. Everytime a public defender refuses to make a comment they miss the opportunity to highlight the deeper issues surrounding the case, which can be done while honoring the anonymity of the client.

Today’s conversation highlights the real need for communication between the public and the courts and between journalists and public defenders.

Guest:

Maggie Shepard, Director of Communications, New Mexico Law Offices of the Public Defender

Key Takeaways:

Utilizing media relations to fight at the systemic level [2:30]
Maggie’s decision to leave journalism to do media relation training [8:10]
How narrative and perception shapes reality [10:15]
Courtroom journalism rarely grants time to scrutinize the power structure at play [14:30]
Deciphering who counts as an “official” source? [19:00]
A different way for journalists to get a powerful and evocative story [28:00]
Teaching public defenders to speak to the broader story unfolding [34:00]
Policy is only as good as the awareness and pressure behind it [39:14]
Bringing media attention to the positive effects of good reform [42:50]
Using language in a way that reminds the public of the process [50:00]
It’s possible for public defenders to have media relations without being quoted [53:00]
Prison reform is the biggest issue facing New Mexico today [55:40]
Teaching journalists what they don’t learn in school [58:00]

Resources:

Contact Maggie

Contact Heather at NAPD

https://www.lopdnm.us/media-ipra/

Memorable Quotes:

“I was tired of being part of the propaganda machine, honestly, I was tired of playing a harmful role in the narratives that I was telling, so I left my job.” [8:19] -Shepard

“There is a desire, within the department, within the attorneys, to learn how to do this better and there is very clearly a need in the community to have better access to the public defense world and for the information we have as public defenders to get out into the world, into our communities.” [9:27] -Shepard

“There’s not a lot of thoughtfulness beyond what's in front of me, the actors and the actions and that’s what we focus on. We might call into question the after and the action but we’re not calling into question the machine, the bigger power structure that’s there.” [14:50] -Shepard

“Good policy, not heard by anybody, isn’t good policy.It’s just a good idea that nobody heard and that's where I think a lot of public defenders and people who want to push these policies fail to understand that policy gets pushed when people hear about it and apply pressure.” [39:14] -Parnell

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Sentencing Project DVSJA Bill News

63: Why do We Punish Domestic Violence Survivors? w/Alexandra Bailey

9 november 2022 | 63 min

When does a victim become a suspect? Very often, our legal system cares about someone's status as a victim when it allows the system to incarcerate someone. As soon as you stand in that goal, any harm done to you matters not.

On today's episode, Hunter spoke with Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment at the Sentencing Project, to discuss the ways our legal system punishes Domestic Violence Survivors. Specifically, they dive deep into the "Failure to Protect laws" that showcase the latent sexism prevalent in our legal system and the twisted ways in which prosecutors ignore self defense claims when it aids their goal of securing higher conviction rates.

While some states offer hope at a future where these cases are not happening around the country, places like Oklahoma remind us there is a long uphill battle that people like Alexandra are at the forefront of to end our brutally harsh punishment bureaucracy.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Alexandra got into her line of work. [5:54]
An overview of some laws that the Sentencing Project is trying to reform. [7:53]
Ways women are uniquely affected by the legal system. [12:20]
The DVSJA law. [23:14]
Why having a clear and trauma-informed legal standard is important. [29:46]
Failure to protect laws. [37:24]
Why the policy needs to be changed in Oklahoma. [53:07]
What the Sentencing Project is all about. [57:23]

Guest:

Alexandra Bailey, Campaign Strategist to End Life Imprisonment, Sentencing Project

Resources:

Oklahoma Failure to Protect

Women’s Prisons Are Filled With Domestic Violence Survivors. A New Type of Law Could Help Them Get Out.

She never hurt her kids. So why is she in prison?

Memorable Quotes:

“It doesn't really matter the circumstances. Women are seen by the legal system as being less credible.” (12:25, Alexandra)

“As of 2020, 47 out of every 100,000 women were in prison, so this is not a failure of any one particular individual. This is the failure of a system that has not provided what families need in order to succeed.” (17:50, Alexandra)

“God bless the public defenders of America because they are so frequently trying to explain trauma to deaf ears. So shout out to all of them.” (29:30, Alexandra)

“There's no shame in improving things. There is no shame in going back and learning and growing. We do it as individuals. There's no reason that this system can't do it too.” (36:32, Alexandra)

“This system takes tools with good intention and wields them in the worst possible way.” (39:11, Alexandra)

“I think we need to start looking at situations as tragedies as opposed to an opportunity to nail someone.” (47:12, Alexandra)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Citizens Overseeing Police Oklahoma

62: Why Does the Aurora City Council Want to Dismantle the Public Defender Office w/Doug Wilson

7 november 2022 | 69 min

61: Uncovering the Misconduct of Police, Prosecutors, and Judges w/Johann Drolshagen

4 november 2022 | 81 min

Thanks to the 1963 case of Brady v. Maryland, prosecutors are supposed to give the defense attorneys any evidence that may be beneficial to the defense’s case. Despite this requirement, police misconduct has been allowed to fester for decades as prosecutors and judges openly flaunt their mandates share this evidence. Furthermore, the legal profession itself fails to police prosecutors and judges who allow the misdeeds of police to go unchecked. This entire cycle calls into question decades worth of prosecutions because of potential failures to disclose evidence, but what can be done if everyone in the system is playing a role in allowing the corruption to continue?

This week, Hunter spoke with Johann Drolshagen, to answer that very question. Johann is the CEO of Level Playing Field solutions, and has helped to create a nationwide, publicly accessible database, called the brady list, to make it easier for communities to report and track misconduct by police, prosecutors, and judges. By bringing this information into the light of day, Johann hopes to combat the corruption gripping millions of Americans trapped in our criminal legal system.

Guests:

Johann Drolshagen, CEO Level Playing Field Solutions

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Johann got Involved in the criminal legal system reform movement [6:40]

What is Brady [14:00]

How widespread is the issue? [14:40]

How police, prosecutors, and judges skirt Brady requirements [19:00]

The issues with attorneys policing attorneys [26:00]

What is the driving force behind these issues [30:00]

How the Brady List holds the powerful to account [32:00]

The issues facing Missouri and Oklahoma [42:53]

How to cut through the institutional hurdles [1:01:00]

Do people care about Due Process? [1:05:55]

What have the positive impacts of the list been? [1:10:35]

Resources:

Brady List

QuattroneCenter

People v Houser

Davis v Normandy

Richard Glossip Case

Follow Johann on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Kansas Board of Indigent Defense Services

60: How Kansas Public Defense Got Headed in the Right Direction w/Heather Cessna

2 november 2022 | 68 min

Heather Cessna, executive director of the Kansas Board of Indigent Services, is dedicated to positively transforming public defense in her state. Since she’s come on board, the quality of services has drastically increased as well as the working conditions for public defenders.

In this episode, you’ll learn the structure of the Kansas Indigent Defense System, its current problems, and recent wins within the state. Heather has successfully reformed much of the system, and she’ll walk you through her methods and tactics.

This episode proves the difference it makes when an indigent defense system has strong leaders. In her time as executive director, Heather has quickly moved the system in the right direction.

There might still be a long way to go, but Heather brings to this episode a breath of fresh air and a sense of much-needed optimism.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Heather’s background in public defense. [5:25]
The structure of the Kansas Indigent Defense System. [10:56]
Problems Heather has tackled under her leadership. [17:00]
Heather’s advocacy methods. [23:21]
What was learned from the surveys. [38:35]
Recent wins. [48:36]
Heather’s secret to her success. [58:37]
Where Heather wants to see Kansas indigent defense go in the future. [1:01:30]

Guest:

Heather Cessna, Executive Director, Kansas Board of Indigent Defense Services

Resources:

Kansas Well Being Committee Work

Memorable Quotes:

“When we understand the failings and successes of other states, we can leverage that in our own.” (3:44, Hunter)

“If you can't refuse cases, you should be able to.” (28:54, Hunter)

“We have a lack of attorneys problem in Kansas generally. We do not have enough counsel in some of our counties to handle the volume of cases that we have.” (34:06, Heather)

“It does us absolutely no good to pretend like we don't have problems.” (40:05, Heather)

“I often tell people if you think the adult level representation or system is struggling, I promise you the juvenile one is probably doing worse.” (1:04:55, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

History of Low Pay for Contract Counsel

59: The Lawsuit Pushing to Change the Wisconsin Public Defense w/John Birdsall and Hank Schultz

28 oktober 2022 | 69 min

Today, Hunter is joined by two guests hoping their lawsuit against the state of Wisconsin will bring vital changes to the State’s Public Defender System. Hank Schultz and John Birdsall have a combined experience of more than 40 years of working as criminal defense attorneys in Wisconsin. Through this experience, they are acutely aware of the history of inadequate pay for contract counsel and tough on crime policies that have pushed indigent defense to a state of crisis.

For decades, the state of Wisconsin paid the attorneys willing to serve as contract counsel for indigent clients a paltry rate of $40 per hour. At that rate, attorneys could not even cover the cost of overhead, and that rate did not change from 1995 until 2020. As a result of these low rates, less and less attorneys were willing to take on cases. Meanwhile, more people were forced to wait months and months just to speak to an attorney. In doing so, the state flagrantly violated the right to counsel and right to speedy trial of countless people, and yet, even raise to $70 per hour the state implemented in 2020 was nowhere close to addressing the magnitude of the problem.

Despite the main issue the state faces being the low pay for contract counsel, Hank and John have sought a creative remedy in their lawsuit. By the end of this episode, you will have a clear understanding of how the state ended being sued, why a lawsuit was necessary, and the potential ways other state’s may be able to learn from this case!!

Guests:

Hank Schultz, Retired Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Contract Counsel Wisconsin Public Defense

John Birdsall, Criminal Defense Attorney, Former Contract Counsel Wisconsin Public Defense

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Hank and John got Involved in Public Defense in Wisconsin [9:20]

Structural Issues with Wisconsin Public Defense [17:20]

How long has Attorney Pay been an Issue in the State [21:17]

History of the Tough on Crime Policies of Wisconsin [24:35]

Attorney Shortages Around the State [29:20]

Goals of the Lawsuit [39:28]

Explaining the Strategy of the Lawsuit [43:10]

Response from the State [50:30]

Response from the Public Defender’s Office [54:33]

Resources:

More Insight into Low Pay in Wisconsin

State v. Nhia Lee

Class action lawsuit calls out lack of state public defenders

Rural Defendants Sue Wisconsin over Indigent Defense

Read the Full Lawsuit Here

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Public defenders vote to strike; justice system could come to a halt

58: Are Public Defense Unions the Key to Systemic Reform? w/Sam Allison-Natale and Bob Kolstad

26 oktober 2022 | 78 min

Are public defense unions the solution to reform?

In this episode, Hunter speaks with Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director of the Kansas Holistic Defenders, and Bob Kolstad, a public defender in Hennepin County, Minnesota.

They’ll walk you through everything you need to know about public defense unions and the philosophy behind them. Giving you a behind-the-scenes view, you’ll learn the realities behind unions, the goals, and why they are necessary.

Then, Bob and Sam will discuss collective organizing and the ethics around it. They’ll share how they mobilize public defenders and how they get past the individualistic society of today.

With their endless enthusiasm, Bob and Sam share a refreshing vision of unity and hope.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Bob and Sam talk about how they got into public defense. [7:02]
Why the Minnesota union is so successful. [16:45]
The ethics of unionization. [24:00]
Why people should take the burden of collective action. [37:10]
The racial lens of collective action. [48:07]
What led to the Minnesota strike. [57:12]
Organizing collective action. [1:02:34]
How to get from a place of individuality to unity. [1:07:50]

Guests:

Sam Allison-Natale, Executive Director, Kansas Holistic Defenders

Bob Kolstad, Public Defender, Hennepin County, Minnesota

Resources:

Minnesota’s top public defender reappointed over objections from rank-and-file

Minnesota’s public defenders vote no confidence in agency head

The Secrets of a Successful Organizer

Michelle Alexander Plea Deal Strike

Email Bob

Email Sam

Memorable Quotes:

“The weakness of unions generally in Kansas is something that affects the shape of Kansas politics across the board.” (23:36, Sam)

“The public defense system is under duress. I mean, severe duress.” (24:50, Bob)

“This discussion about collective action versus individual action, and the fact that everybody is stuck in an individual mindset is what allows the system to function.” (33:00, Sam)

“The fact is that organizing for a strike, building a credible strike threat can get people really, really far in fighting for the kinds of things that they need to have.” (40:39, Bob)

“I think that we are in a situation of such dire need that people want to be invited into a struggle for something greater.” (43:13, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

https://www.olayemiolurin.com/

57: Why More People and Public Defenders Need to Think and Advocate Systemically w/Olayemi Olurin

21 oktober 2022 | 65 min

This week, Hunter speaks with Olayemi Olurin—a political commentator, writer, activist, and public defender out of the New York Legal Aid Society. She has spent her career advocating for systematic change and brings with her a powerful perspective on the criminal justice system.

There are many common lies and misconceptions that circulate about public defense, reform efforts, and the criminal justice system as a whole. Olayemi will refute these lies and give you an inside glimpse into the true reality of the complicated legal system by walking you through the everyday injustices she faces.

She’ll talk about her outreach work and the tactics she uses to change the perspectives of both stakeholders and the general public about why reform is important. Olayemi is dedicated to improving advocacy on a systematic level to combat negative and untrue narratives.

Olayemi dreams of a day when public defenders can truly be the voice of their clients. With her energy and passion, she is carving the path for change.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Olayemi describes her story of going into public defense. [7:28]
Turning activism into effective policy. [12:28]
How public defense misconceptions get spread. [31:17]
Problems with how the justice system treats POC. [35:06]
What’s going on at Rikers Island. [39:07]
Speedy trials. [47:46]
How Olayemi changes perspectives. [51:00]
Everyday injustices Olayemi sees as a public defender. [54:16]

Guest:

Olayemi Olurin, Public Defender, New York Legal Aid Society

Resources:

Follow on Olayemi Twitter

Follow Olayemi on Instagram

Olayemi’s appearance on The Young Turks

Eric Adams' POLICE STATE Is The Future Democrats Want, But Their Voters DON'T: Olayemi Olurin

Eric Adams' INCOMPETENT Rikers' Deaths Response Is An ATTACK On Due Process

Olayemi's Thesis

Olayemi on the SAFE-T Act

Memorable Quotes:

“It's woefully insufficient for the black community to be, to be as overrepresented as we are in terms of incarceration, but underrepresented in the profession. We make a maybe 5% of attorneys.” (11:39, Olayemi)

“I'm more concerned in shifting public consciousness. It doesn't matter to me what other attorneys think.” (18:12, Olayemi)

“My emotional feeling in a state of when somebody pisses you off should not be a reflection of what our criminal system is or the larger consequences at the end of the day.” (27:52, Olayemi)

“That's the problem. It's a society that's really just galvanized around whiteness and policing black and brown bodies.” (35:27, Olayemi)

“The reality is, the only way power is maintained is by subjugating somebody else.” (38:41, Olayemi)

“People often bring the criminal system into their lives because they don't understand how it works.” (55:13, Olayemi)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

56: Could Veteran Treatment Courts be the Key to Unlocking Criminal Justice Reforms? with David Pelletier

19 oktober 2022 | 58 min

Today on the show, Hunter is joined by David Pelletier, a Project Director in the Justice for Veterans division of the National Association of Drug Court Professionals, to discuss Veteran Treatment Courts. Founded by a lone judge in Buffalo, New York, Veteran Treatment Courts follow in the 30+ year tradition of broader treatment courts. These courts all seek to offer alternatives to incarceration that drive towards the root causes of someone’s involvement with the criminal legal system through a culturally competent lens.

For Veteran’s Treatment Court, the goal is to offer veterans suffering with acute medical needs a path towards recovery through a process that saves them from lengthy counter productive prison stints. As David shares, these individualized courts that drive at eliminating the root causes that landed someone tied up with the legal system. Yet while the success of the courts is not in question, the courts offer much more for communities to consider.

In many places, communities find themselves holding two thing ideals: they should be tough on crime, but they should also be caring to their veteran populations, and this is where Veteran Treatment Courts have so much potential. By adopting Veteran Treatment Courts, these communities are exposed to the power of viewing each person through a holistic and individualized lens. Hopefully, this may lead communities to consider other treatment courts or even expanding access to care before someone ever becomes entangled with the legal system.

After this conversation, you will hopefully walk away feeling inspired to think about the ways you could help kickstart similar non-carceral interventions in your own community!!

Guests:

David Pelletier, Project Director, National Association of Drug Court Professionals, Justice For Veterans Division, Marine Corps Veteran

Key Topics and Takeaways:

David’s journey from the Marine Corps to Justice for Veterans [5:38]

What is Veteran Treatment Court? [8:28]

Why do we need a Veteran Treatment Court [14:37]

How can Veteran Treatment Court help criminal justice reform more broadly? [28:40]

How to start a Veteran Treatment Court and what are the benefits of doing so [32:45]

How to represent and relate to a veteran in the legal profession [43:00]

Generational Differences and ongoing issues amongst the Veteran Community [46:40]

Resources:

Justice for Veterans Website State of The American Veteran Survey Search for Veteran Status Brock Hunter Special Considerations for Representing Veterans Brock Hunter's guide to representing Veterans Porter V. McCollum, 558 US 30 – Supreme Court 2009 A lawyer provides ineffective assistance of counsel if he or she does not investigate a client’s military service and present aspects of it as potential mitigating factors.12 The Court held that not only was it relevant that the veteran-defendant had “extensive combat experience” and had “served honorably under extreme hardship and gruesome conditions,” but also “that the jury might find mitigating the intense stress and mental and emotional toll that combat took” on the defendant. One of Hunter’s former guests, Travis Wiener is helped with the making of this really awesome documentary. While it is not in any way affiliated with the Veterans for Justice group, Hunter felt like it was a powerful resource for people to gain insight onto some of the challenges Iraq and Afghanistan veterans face.

Meatgrinder Documentary Website: https://www.meatgrinderdoc.com

Youtube channel: Follow David on Twitter Email David:

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Office of Defender General Website

Andrea Lyon on the Need for the Defender General

14 oktober 2022 | 35 min

55: Capital Representation and the Office of the Defender General w/Andrea Lyon

14 oktober 2022 | 83 min

Dubbed by the Chicago Tribune as “The Angel of Death Row”, Andrea Lyon is one of the most successful Capital Case Public Defenders in the country, but she is so much more than that. As an author, educator, former law school dean, and advocate for criminal justice reform, there is next to nothing that Andrea has not done in her career.

On today’s episode, Hunter and Andrea discuss her experience as a Capital Public Defender, in Academia, and most importantly, her push to create the Office of the Defender General at the State Level. There are many reasons why it is essential to create the office, but none may be more important than the desperate for Public Defenders and the defense bar to play a larger role in policy decisions at the federal level.

It is so important that Hunter pulled out that section of the conversation and released it as its own episode. If you want to hear Andrea’s thoughts on the Office of the Defender General you can find it at the end of this one or on the other episode released today. However you go about it, it is essential to hear Andrea out and begin thinking seriously about pushing for deeper systemic changes to our legal system.

Guests:

Andrea Lyon, Capital Defense Attorney, Former Capital Public Defender, Author, Educator, and Former Dean of Valparaiso Law School

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How did Andrea Start off in this Work [8:30]

Things that Stood Out in Andrea’s Career as a Capital Public Defender [10:45]

Andrea’s motivation for staying active in Capital Representation [20:47]

The arguments that helped Andrea be a success in Capital Representation [24:45]

How can Law school Improve the way it teaches the practice of law vs the theory of law [34:40]

The need for the Defender General [51:21]

How RICO is used and abused and how a Defender General could have stopped similar policies from being implemented [54:30]

How the Defender General would Operate [1:01:00]

Resources:

Andrea Lyon Website

Follow Andrea on Twitter

Check out Andrea’s Book

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Defender Union of Colorado

54: The Public Defense Union Pushing to Change Colorado Public Defense with The Defender's Union of Colorado

12 oktober 2022 | 102 min

In this episode, I speak with three inspiring individuals: Michelle Sages, a Lead Deputy State Public Defender of the Denver Trial Office, Travis Weiner, a Deputy State Public Defender of the Greeley Regional Office, and James Hardy, a Lead Deputy Public Defender in the Appellate Division of the Colorado State Public Defender.

Together, they speak on The Defender’s Union of Colorado and why it’s essential to have a public service union. Then, they go into how they have been working with both state officials and the general public to gain support for their cause.

They’ll wipe away all misconceptions about public service unions and prove that despite the criticisms, a union is beneficial for everyone involved.

Even though Colorado is in the top 5 states with the strongest public defense system, there is still a long way to go. Public service employees are still drastically underpaid and overworked, while clients are not receiving fair access to representation.

Michelle, Travis, and James are actively advocating for a system that ensures public service employees can keep up with the requirements of their job while clients can get the help they desperately need. With their passion for transforming the system, Colorado public defense has a much brighter future.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Michelle, Travis, and James explain how they got into public defense. [7:06]
Why the defense union was created. [12:36]
Reasons public service and a union are not in conflict. [28:45]
Biggest goals of the union. [36:38]
Problems with the leadership in public defense. [37:34]
The legal & structural issues that the union faces. [56:06]
How the union avoids becoming public defender centered. [1:10:57]
Policy work that needs to be done. [1:17:11]
The future of Colorado public defense. [1:27:32]
Why the union is necessary. [1:33:43]

Guests:

Michelle Sages, Lead Deputy State Public Defender, Denver Trial Office

Travis Weiner, Deputy State Public Defender, Greeley Regional Office

James Hardy, Lead Deputy Public Defender, Appellate Division, Colorado State Public Defender

Resources:

Polis, Democratic lawmakers and local governments are all squaring off over public bargaining rights

Colorado’s Public Defender’s Office workers announce a union effort, but state laws stand in their way

Colorado’s public defenders launch union drive for lawyers and support staff. But there’s a catch.

"Highly Overworked and Grossly Underpaid": Why Public Defenders Launched a Union

Memorable Quotes:

“If we can't do this work without all of us, we need to improve the conditions for all of us.” (13:16, Travis)

“I think a lot of people leave because they believe that the work is so important and they find themselves unable to do it in a satisfactory way within the system.” (18:31, Michelle)

“Our goal as a union is to provide the best client representation we possibly can and to ensure effective representation for all of our clients and where we feel like that our system is falling short is in retention and creating a sustainable career path for folks, which long term hurts our clients' representation.” (29:30, James)

“One of the problems with the revolving door system is oftentimes for supervisor positions, it's not who's the most qualified or the best fit, it's who's up next, Is that the best way to train the next generation of public defenders? Is that the best way to select someone that brand new public defenders are gonna look to and model after? I don't think so.” (37:52, James)

“Everybody knows it is a totally open secret that it is a completely unconstitutional, dysfunctional system and people are not getting the representation that they deserve and need.” (43:57, Travis)

“The system does not work if every gear in it is not functioning properly.” (1:06:26, Travis)

“Having a system that's not functioning well does not benefit victims of these crimes either.” (1:08:17, Michelle)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Multnomah County Public Defender

53: What is Causing the Crisis in Oregon Public Defense w/Chris O'Connor

7 oktober 2022 | 76 min

The Oregon Public Defender System is broken. Due to a shortage of attorneys willing to take on the cases, hundreds of people wait for months without ever having an attorney appointed to their case. During this wait, they are often required to return to court to mandate another hearing because attorneys are not available to take the case. With each passing day, evidence grows harder to find, the memories of potential witnesses fade away, and whatever trust the accused had in the legal system withers and dies.

To help Hunter understand how this crisis consumed Oregon Public Defense, he spoke with Chris O’Connor, a Public Defender at the Metropolitan Public Defender in Multnomah County Oregon. After 20 years as a Public Defender, Chris is the perfect guest to help understand the history and decisions leading up to the crisis.

As he reveals, report after report over the years have continuously showcased the many failings of the overly complex, contract based public defender system. Yet despite the issues being obvious, the legislature and the judiciary continued to allow the issue to fester. This episode is a must listen if you want to best understand the uphill battle the Public Defenders in Oregon are facing!

Guests:

Chris O’Connor, Public Defender, Metropolitan Public Defender Office, Multnomah County Oregon

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How did Chris start off as a PD [8:11]

Structure and History of Oregon Public Defense [10:21]

Findings and Impacts of the Sixth Amendment Center [14:30]

Why does the contract model still persist in Oregon? [20:48]

Can this system work? [25:15]

Impacts of Drug Decriminalization [28:45]

How this crisis has been framed by the media and the lack of accountability by the judiciary and the legislature [31:44]

Why do people have to come to court 12 times just to have a case dismissed [38:55]

The judicial cowardice problem [40:00]

The impacts of the attorney shortage [42:00]

The judicial coup that hit the PDSC [53:00]

What can be done [1:02:00]

Resources:

Follow Chris on Twitter

Sixth Amendment Center Report

Vice Investigative Reporting on Public Defender Crisis

‘No sense of justice’: Hundreds cycling through Oregon courts without public defenders

Firing of Stephen Singer

Oregon Public Defense Law Suit

ABA Report on Oregon Public Defense

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Jefferson County Public Defender

52: The Court Fines and Fees that Fund Alabama with Adam Danneman and Leah Nelson

5 oktober 2022 | 82 min

What is the true impact of fines and fees?

In this episode, I speak with two inspiring individuals—Adam Danneman, the Chief Public Defender of Jefferson County, Alabama, and Leah Nelson, the Research Director of Alabama Appleseed. They bring with them two unique perspectives and a boatload of passion for public defense.

Alabama does not have a universal indigent defense system and there is no obligation for any county in the state to operate a specific type of public defender system. Together, Adam and Leah talk about the specific challenges that this setup creates and how they work within this system.

Overall, Adam and Leah give advice to people who don’t live in the south on how to move past their preconceived notions. After this episode, you’ll look at southerners in an entirely new way!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Adam and Leah introduce themselves and explain their role in public defense. [9:02]
An overview of the structure of Alabama’s indigent defense system. [14:37]
Witnesses and investigators. [20:15]
Why there is a lack of treatment in prisons. [29:59]
The top issues impacting public defense representation in Alabama. [32:45]
Why a speedy trial isn’t a guaranteed right under the Constitution. [35:52]
Issues with fines and fees in Alabama public defense. [38:38]
Alabama’s indigency determination standard. [57:50]

Guests:

Adam Danneman, Chief Public Defender, Jefferson County, Alabama,

Leah Nelson, Research Director, Alabama Appleseed

Resources:

Alabama Appleseed Report

New York Times Article

1901 by Shake the Field with Felt Five Thompson is an impactful song about Alabama's white supremacist 1901 constitution. One of the rappers, Evan Milligan, is also the plaintiff in Milligan v Merrill, a case challenging Alabama's decision to pack Black voters into a single congressional district. This case will be argued at the U.S. Supreme Court on October 4th, 2022.

Memorable Quotes:

“Do not leave behind the south, do not leave behind Alabama because you think it is not worth helping.” (7:15, Hunter)

“Making sure that people have qualified counsel is a high priority for me and for Apple Seed, but it's not a high priority for our legislature.” (16:30, Leah)

“One fair negative stereotype about public defenders, not just in Alabama, but everywhere, is that we're overworked.” (33:08, Adam)

“Pretty much every crime in Alabama comes with some financial penalty on top of maybe jail or prison time.” (39:11, Leah)

“We really undermine public safety and we undermine the independent judiciary and independent prosecution system when we force prosecutors and the courts to generate revenue for the state.” (53:46, Leah)

“We spend more money in Alabama, probably everywhere to collect this debt than it actually brings in if we recovered all.” (1:05:10, Adam)

Contact Hunter Parnell:[email protected]

Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases Website

51: The Texas Capital Punishment System is Designed to Kill w/Ray Keith

30 september 2022 | 77 min

When people discuss the criminal legal system, you may often hear someone say, “the system is not broken. It is acting exactly was it was designed.” On today’s episode, Hunter and guest Ray Keith discuss the ways in which the legal system in Texas is designed to kill people.

As the head of the Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases in Texas, Ray is intimately familiar with the statutory language and process that directs the jury towards a death penalty over life. While this is a highly technical episode, it is important to dig down into the weeds to examine the insidious ways the legal system is operating exactly as it was intended.

Hopefully, this episode will also spark a curiosity in you to understand the complex legal technicalities in your own state may drive harsher punishments. While Texas is the focus of this episode, we know they are not alone in designing a system with the goal of producing the harshest possible outcomes for those being processed through it

Guests:

Ray Keith, Chief Public Defender, Regional Public Defenders for Capital Cases, Texas

Key Topics and Takeaways:

What the RPDO does and how Ray got there [7:40]

Difficulties of being a Criminal Defense Attorney in Texas [13:20]

The Texas Capital Statute [15:36]

How a Capital Jury is Selected [20:00]

The Questions you Can't ask a Jury [27:00]

The Punishment Phase of a Capital Case [30:46]

Why Doesn't Texas Explain "Reasonable Doubt" to Jurors [32:30]

The Questions Jurors need to Answer to Give the Death Penalty [34:70]

The "Evidence" Used to Prove Future Threat [40:00]

Why Rehabilitation is disregarded in Texas Capital Cases [45:00]

The Second Question Jurors Consider [48:00]

How the State Proves Someone Should be Killed [50:00]

The Way Jury Instructions Lead to Death Sentences [58:00]

Why Is this So Hard to Fix and What Can be Done [1:03:00]

Resources:

Texas Indigent Defense Commission

Contact Hunter Parnell:

NY Times Report on Alabama Fees and Fines

50: The Fees Making People Pay for Their "Free" Attorney w/Marea Beeman

28 september 2022 | 66 min

Today, Hunter sat down with Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA), to discuss their recent report, “At What Cost? Findings from an Examination into the Imposition of Public Defense System Fees.

If you ask the average person what the word “free” means, they will likely tell you it means whatever is considered “free” does not have any cost associated with it. So, when people hear, “If you cannot afford counsel, one will be appointed to you at no cost to yourself”, people would likely assume that this attorney is “free”. Anyone who is familiar with our legal system, however, will inform you that you will likely have to pay for your Public Defender. In fact, in many states, the first time you appear before a judge, that judge will make clear to you that your counsel will cost you.

From a top-down look at all 50 states, to deep dives into the Public Defender fees in Oklahoma, Iowa, and New Hampshire, Marea and Hunter discuss the various ways these fees trap people in never ending cycles of debt that can lead to future incarceration, loss of driving privileges, and work to perpetuate a broken, predatory legal system

Guests:

Marea Beeman, Director of Research Initiatives for Defender Legal Services at the National Legal Aid and Defender Association (NLADA),

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Marea got into this work [8:00]

What is the NLADA [9:30]

What do you mean my “free attorney” isn’t free [10:30]

Difference Between Fines and Fees [14:20]

Methodology of the Study [17:50]

The Issues with Indigency Determination [21:00]

Findings from Oklahoma [26:13]

Findings in Iowa [39:40]

Findings in New Hampshire [53:00]

Solutions to the Issue [57:00]

Resources:

NLADA Report

Alabama Appleseed Report

Fuller v Oregon (SCOTUS found there is a legitimate interest in states recovering the cost of representation)

Bearden v Georgia

Follow NLADA on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Maricopa County Public Defender

49: How did Arizona Become so Pro-Mass Incarceration and What Can be Done About it? w/Nate Wade and Katie Gipson-McLean

23 september 2022 | 83 min

Today Hunter had the distinct pleasure of speaking with Nate Wade and Katie Gipson-McLean, two public defenders from the Arizona. Of all the episodes, this may be the one that makes you the most pissed off.

From the outset, Katie and Nate drop story after story that reveals the deeply regressive and reactionary structure sustaining the status quo of mass incarceration in Arizona. From the powerful money interests in the DOC, to the work of a single, motivated individual, Arizona can easily be described as one of the most pro carceral states in America. Constantly ranking at the top leader boards in state spending on incarceration, Arizona is this way by design.

Despite all of the issues laid out (and there are a lot of them), Hunter hopes you walk away with hope that change in a place like this is possible because of the dedication and determination of fighters like Nate and Katie!!

Guests:

Nate Wade, Public Defender, Pinal County, Arizona

Katie Gipson-McLean, Public Defender, Maricopa County, Arizona

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Nate and Katie got into Public Defense [8:06]

Inconsistencies from county to county in Arizona Public Defense and Criminal Justice [12:00]

Understanding the Politics of Arizona [21:29]

How a single person shapes Arizona criminal justice policies [32:33]

Can punishment have a deterrent effect? [36:45]

The corruption and power influencing Arizona reforms [39:10]

Why it is so difficult for defense attorneys to have their voices heard in Arizona [50:30]

Katie describes the broken plea bargaining in Maricopa County [57:00]

The impacts of the Victim’s Bill of Rights on public defense [1:03:34]

Hope for change in Arizona [1:14:00]

Resources:

Maricopa County Know Your Rights Podcast

Pinal County Public Defender Office

Arizona communities would 'collapse' without cheap prison labor, Corrections director says

Mass Liberation

The Invisible Hand of Steve Twist

How an Arizona man who’s never held elected office has shaped one of America’s most punitive criminal justice systems.

Arizona Criminal Justice Commission Check out there board and the lack of defense counsel!!

Living United for Change in Arizona (LUCHA)

Follow Katie on Twitter

Follow Nate on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Conditions in a New Mexico Jail

www.publicdefenseless.com

48: The Recent Victories Igniting New Hope for Missouri Public Defense w/Mary Fox

21 september 2022 | 67 min

47: In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt w/Nick Barber

16 september 2022 | 65 min

Today, Hunter sat down with Nick Barber, author of a recent piece in the magazine In These Times called “In Small-Town Georgia, A Broken Taillight Can Lead to Spiraling Debt”. In his investigation and writing, Nick uncovered a corrupt private probation system that keeps people under control of the state for years in what appears to be an effort to generate revenue for Clayton, Georgia and for the company.

As is so often the case, Nick highlights the story of two poor people who lives were upended by this abusive system of debt, and it is clear throughout the work that at no point in time did the city ask, “Does this actually improve public safety?” From this episode, Hunter hopes you are able to walk away with a better understanding of the insidious ways in which we have forced small towns around the country have trapped countless Americans in a cycle of poverty through the crushing force of the criminal legal system.

Guests:

Nick Barber, Journalist and Former Investigator for the Southern Center for Human Rights

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Nick’s work with the Southern Center for Human Rights and finding this story [7:15]

Nick’s advice to those who want to get into Court Watching [11:00]

Background on Clayton, Georgia and Municipal Courts [13:50]

The Impacts of Private Probation on Ms. Lynn Davis [18:10]

Where is the Public Defender in Clayton, Georiga? [27:00]

The Impacts of Judge Sneed on revenue generated through fines and fees [31:38]

How the system trapped a 72 year old woman in years of debt [35:30]

How Georgia tried to address Private Probation [37:30]

How Clayton Georgia worked around the State’s remedy [40:00]

Private Probation and Predatory Municipal Finance [44:50]

The impacts of smaller federal spending on small town America [50:00]

Has the private probation system improved [54:30]

Will things change in the state? [58:00]

Resources:

In These Times Article

The Bonds of Inequality

Follow Nick on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

BRIEF OF THE BLACK ATTORNEYS OF LEGAL AID, THE BRONX DEFENDERS, BROOKLYN DEFENDER SERVICES

www.publicdefenseless.com

46: Fighting Gun Violence Without Using Mass Incarceration in Cook County, IL w/Sharone Mitchell

14 september 2022 | 65 min

Today, Hunter spoke with Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender in Cook County about a few extremely timely topics: Guns and Bail Reform.

Born and raised in Chicago, Sharone understands the needs of his community and you can easily see how his experience helps to inform the way he pushes for and speaks about reform in Cook County. At the center of those pushes are tackling the issue of gun violence in the city without feeding America’s addiction to mass incarceration. Hunter really enjoyed the nuanced conversation about the ways in which gun violence and possession can be addressed without further harming poor Black and Hispanic communities in the city.

Lastly, Hunter and Sharone took a deep dive on the newest massive criminal justice reform legislation in Illinois, the Pre Trial Fairness Act, what it does, how it helps, and how people are already blaming it for everything before the Act even goes into effect.

Guests:

Sharone Mitchell Jr., Chief Public Defender, Cook County

Key Topics and Takeaways:

From Growing up in Chicago to Being the Chief Defender [5:30]

What People Misunderstand About Those in the Legal System [9:00]

Why Sharone Wanted to Be a Public Defender [11:00]

Differences and Similarities Between Cook County Public Defense and the Rest of the State [16:05]

The Nuance of the Gun Control Debate [24:00]

The Realities of Gun Restrictions in Cook County [29:00]

Why it is So Difficult to Fight the Status Quo on Gun Possession [38:00]

The Details of the Illinois Pre-Trial Fairness Act [46:50]

Resources:

NYSRPA v Bruen

6th Amendment Center Report on Illinois

Sharone’s Piece in the Nation on the impact of Gun Laws

Sharone on First Person podcast

Recent Op-ed pieceby two Cook County Assistant Public Defenders

Recent Block Club Chicago storyon some of the issues

Recent Injustice Watch storyon even more issues with gun possession charges

Here is a basic overview of the Pretrial Fairness Act. The state is ending money bond on Jan. 1, but there are other important reforms.

Follow the Cook County PD Office on Twitter

Follow Sharone on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Purchase Punishment Without Trial!!

www.publicdefenseless.com

45: Lawyers, Social Workers, Investigators, and the Whole Team that Makes the NAPD w/Lori James-Townes

9 september 2022 | 67 min

44: Community Outreach and Staffing Shortages in Miami Public Defense w/Carlos Martinez

7 september 2022 | 68 min

43: The Problem with Plea Deals with Professor Carissa Byrne Hessick

2 september 2022 | 88 min

If you believed the many legal dramas in TV reflected actual court proceedings, you would be under the impression that our legal system is driven by the battle of wits between two lawyers at trial. If, however, you examine how our legal system operates, you would see that long ago our system became one where trials are rare. Instead, it is the plea bargain sitting at the bedrock of our legal system, but how did this happen? How did our country go from outright rejecting plea bargains so that a jury trial may happen to a country that actively punishes those who seek out a trial?

All that and more is at the forefront of this discussion between Hunter and Professor Carissa Byrne Hessick. Our guest is a law professor at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill and author of the book Punishment Without Trial: Why Plea Bargaining is bad Deal. As the title suggests and as many of my guests know, plea bargaining is likely not the best for the accused, for the alleged victims, or for society at large, but what is lost when we allow justice to be negotiated behind closed doors? Tune in to this episode to find out!

Guests:

Carissa Byrne Hessick, Anne Shea Ransdell and William Garland "Buck" Ransdell, Jr. Distinguished Professor of Law, University of North Carolina Chapel Hill

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Why Carissa Wanted to Write this Book [6:00]

Carissa’s viewpoints on the legal system prior to writing [8:00]

How did Plea Bargaining become so prevalent? [13:37]

How lawyers reacted to the rise of Plea Bargaining [17:00]

Santabello v New York and SCOTUS’ endorsement of Plea Bargaining [20:00]

The Trial Penalty [22:00]

The Role of The Chief Justice in Court Admin [25:00]

Picking Apart Arguments for Plea Deals [28:00]

How Plea Deals can Hide the Truth [31:00]

Do Prosecutors have too much power and too many responsibilities? [35:00]

The Stories of Scott Hechinger as a Brooklyn Defender [39:00]

How Arizona circumvents Brady Requirements [45:00]

The Discretionary Nature of our Legal System via Jury Trials [51:00]

“Why Would you Plea Guilty to Something you Didn’t Do? [57:00]

How Could Law School do Better? [1:12:00]

What to do about Plea Bargaining [1:20:00]

Resources:

UNC Chapel Hill Bio

Follow Carissa on Twitter

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Example of Media Bias Around Shooting in Arlington

42: The Essential Role of Social Work and Mitigation Specialists in Public Defense with Justin Heim

31 augusti 2022 | 77 min

Justin Heim - Staff Development Program Specialist (Training Division), Wisconsin State Public Defender - joins this episode to breaks down what a social worker really is and helps us define their role in the legal system.

Trauma is something that is not only affecting the community but the agents working to help as well. Justin believes a renaissance is beginning as our culture accepts that emotional intelligence is an integral part to our functionality, both in and out of the system. Without pausing to process, we can easily endanger our community by not coming into these high risk situations with the compassion they deserve. I hope you leave today with a new perspective of our culture's craving for punishment.

Key Takeaways:

What is a Social Worker? [8:20]
A new approach: Shifting towards emotional intelligence [12:45]
The overlooked reality that experiencing trauma is inevitable for social workers [13:25]
The traumatic imprint of a situation will manifest [15:30]
Crisis response teams: assessing if someone is a danger to themselves [19:00]
Retraining for moments of crisis: Teaming with Police to de-escalate situations [22:30]
Making difficult decisions on behalf of people who need help in moments of crisis [25:00]
When does my right to choose something start to impede on your right to safety? [29:00]
Social workers are necessary to help attorney’s understand the client's story [37:00]
Community correction agents and pre investigations for sentencing [46:22]
Compassion fatigue and moral injury in the public defenders [48:45]
The work is never ending so you do have take the time to care for yourself [58:00]
Social workers will intuitively get involved in the transformative justice movement [62:10]
Helping victims understand that punishment is not always useful [64:30]
Punishment is not always the solution [68:00]

Resources:

Email: [email protected]

https://www.wispd.gov/

Memorable Quotes:

“It has to change because…it’s not transactional law, criminal defense is not transactional law, you are working with human beings, human beings who have experienced trauma. You will experience trauma, right? Your colleagues are traumatized. This work takes a lot out of people and we need to acknowledge that.”[13:25]

“If we went with law enforcement, they would often let us lead, right, as far as building that rapport and then if it came to that point of like it seems like this isn’t safe…almost every single time it was not any confrontation necessary. It might have been against the person’s will, they did not want to come but I feel like if the officers are skilled enough and working together with community mental health folks that is really the best situation.” [20:37]

“Sometimes when someone is saying “‘I don’t want to be hospitalized, I don’t want to take my medication” previously sometimes they told you “when I say this, please give me my medication, please hospitalize me” right so, it’s not as easy as like, the best interest verses what their expressed interest was because sometimes those things get confused depending on the situation.” [25:27]

“We are educated to find punishment pleasurable, if we can see another and judge them as wrong, If we have some rules and we know this is right and this is wrong therefor I get to say you’re wrong and you should be punished it increases my sense of rightness.” [67:40]

41: Turning Public Defender Priorities into Public Policy Victories with Brad Haywood and Bryan Kennedy

26 augusti 2022 | 76 min

There are only so many victories that can happen for Public Defense in a court room. Of course, we should the goal should be zealous advocacy and the best outcome for each client, but a single victory in a single case is not enough to stem the tide of Mass Incarceration. Real victories for the accused come at the policy level, and that is what this week’s conversation is all about. Joining Hunter this week is Brad Haywood and Bryan Kennedy, two public defenders in Virginia and members of the non-partisan policy advocacy group, Justice Forward Virginia!

Throughout the conversation, both Brad and Bryan highlight the importance of brining the public defender voice to the policy table. Without that voice, policy makers are often directed by the only criminal justice stakeholders in the room: Police and Prosecutors. Organizations like Justice Forward, while difficult to start and sustain, are an essential factor for those looking to zealously fight for public defense reform at the level where small changes make the most impact.

Guests:

Brad Haywood, Chief Public Defender, Arlington VA

Bryan Kennedy, Assistant Public Defender, Fairfax VA

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Introduction to Brad, Bryan, and Justice Forward [6:30]

How to fill the knowledge gap between the theory of law and the practice of law [12:45]

The importance of having a public defender at the policy table [15:40]

Policy Victories for Justice Forward [21:10]

Sustaining Victories and Understanding the Political Landscape of Virginia [28:19]

Lies perpetuated by the media about Criminal Justice Reform [37:00]

Impacts of Virginia Laws on Racial Minorites [42:50]

How to Best Message Progressive Criminal Justice Policies [49:50]

Advice for those seeking Policy Reform [57:50]

Resources:

Justice Forward Virginia

Follow them on twitter:

Brad Haywood @BradleyRHaywood

Bryan Kennedy @kennedybtd

Justive Foward Virginia

Contact Hunter Parnell:

www.publicdefenseless.com

40: How Moral Injury, Stress, and Trauma Impact Public Defense with Jenny Andrews

24 augusti 2022 | 71 min

Jenny Andrews is the Director of Training for California’s Indigent Defense Improvement Division. She’s here today to teach you what public defense is truly like from the defender’s side.

Public defenders are often trapped between a rock and a hard place because they want to provide equal representation access, yet are expected to work too many hours for not enough pay. Because of this, “martyr complex” is prevalent in this field.

You’ll learn that public defense is an area of service, but that this often comes at the expense of the defender’s mental health. Jenny will walk you through how she’s helping implement self-care practices into nation wide and why self-care is vital to providing zealous representation!

Throughout this episode, remember that ultiamtely, it is the client who sufferes when the public defender suffers in silence

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Jenny’s background and how she got started in public defense. [7:50]
Why Jenny burnt out and left the industry. [14:18]
Moral injury. [21:58]
Self-care in public defense. [26:32]
Secondary trauma. [33:36]
How Jenny has been building a culture of self-care. [42:50]
How individual offices are promoting self-care. [48:28]
The line between service and self-care. [53:14]

Guest:

Jenny Andrews, Director of Training, Indigent Defense Improvement Division, Office of the State Public Defender, California

Resources:

Be Sustained

Body Keeps the Score

Memorable Quotes:

“It is the client who suffers the most when public defenders are run ragged and into the ground.” (4:33, Hunter)

“As a public defender, most of us come into this work because we see the way that the system treats the most vulnerable people, and we wanna provide a high level of representation to them. And then we encounter all of these obstacles and things that block us and prevent us from being able to do that. And it's really, really taxing and demoralizing.” (18:14, Jenny)

“Having great self-care tools is like knowing how to change a tire, but you drive every day on a road that is covered in potholes. So you are constantly needing to change your tires.” (31:48, Hunter)

“If you are not letting your people take care of yourself, the mission will fall apart. They will not perform.” (53:39, Hunter)

“I think that if we are taking care of ourselves and each other, we are better equipped to take care of the people that we represent.” (58:45, Jenny)

“We have to break out of this idea that caging people fixes social problems.” (1:02:02, Jenny)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Michigan Indigent Defense Commission

39: The Power of Public Advocacy in Alameda County Public Defense with Brendon Woods

19 augusti 2022 | 70 min

38: Can the Michigan Model Pave the Way for Public Defense? with Kristen Staley

17 augusti 2022 | 67 min

38: Michigan Public Defense w/ Kristen Staley

Ready for a refreshing dose of positivity?

In this episode, Hunter speaks with Kristen Staley, the Executive Director of the Michigan Indigent Defense.

Kristen maps out the complexities of a committee system, sharing the unique challenges and benefits that having individual offices hold. It turns out that the quality of services varies from county to county.

She’ll also explain how she is working in the legislature to transform the future of Michigan public defense. Kristen has many goals for the state that she lays out in this episode.

Overall, Kristen conveys an attitude of hope and excitement for the future. She is certain that Michigan indigent defense will change for the better.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Kristen’s background and how she got into Michigan public defense. [10:53]
Handling cases of individuals 18-25. [15:26]
The Michigan Model of public defense. [24:08]
Michigan’s indigency standards. [36:17]
The commission and state’s response to the Sixth Amendment Center reports. [39:39]
How Kristen works with the legislature. [44:35]
The difference between being an advocate and a policy maker. [48:39]
Kristen’s goals for Michigan indigent defense. [59:43]

Guest:

Kristen Staley, Executive Director Michigan Indigent Defense Commission

Resources:

Race to the Bottom NLADA Report

2018 Wayne County Report

2019 Wayne County Report

Prof Eve Primus Observations on Michigan Court Rooms

Memorable Quotes:

“Change can happen and will happen if you keep on pushing.” (10:23, Hunter)

“18 is not a magic number, that there is science and there is research and youth are not adults.” (17:07, Kristen)

“The criminal justice system, just like any other type of system, is run by humans. Right? And we all have these biases, no matter what it is, but we have to be able to understand and recognize them.” (18:21, Kristen)

“I think that having such a large group of stakeholders beyond the commission helps ensure that we're actually hearing all the voices and makes sure that we're not forgetting things.” (35:15, Kristen)

“I think there's a lot of very good activists who push these types of things forward, but not every great activist is also a great policy person. I think that's very different. And not every great policy person is a great activist.” (51:47, Hunter)

“Public defenders care about this work. At the end of the day they are advocates.” (1:04:35, Kristen)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Final Report of the Blue Ribbon Group

37: How to Train the Next Generation of Public Defense Leaders with Jeff Sherr and Heather Hall

12 augusti 2022 | 72 min

36: Kentucky PD and The National Association of Public Defense with Ernie Lewis

10 augusti 2022 | 61 min

Kentucky is known to have a strong and well-structured public defender system, but it is held back by poor funding and an unresponsive legislative body.

This week, Hunter speaks with Ernie Lewis, the former Public Advocate of Kentucky and former Executive Director of the National Association for Public Defense (NAPD).

They discuss Ernie’s work in public defense reform and the best ways to get needed changes. Ernie attempts to answer the ultimate question—what does it take to transform the system so it’s responsive to the needs of those in it?

Instrumental in the formation of the NAPD, he’ll explain how it began and why the work of this organization is so important. He’ll also explore how to balance the needs of public defenders with the needs of the individuals going through the system.

Ernie brings to the show a refreshing, optimistic look at the public defense system and its future.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Ernie’s background in public defense and how he got started. [4:50]
Why Ernie wanted to work in poverty law. [8:49]
Ernie’s three goals as public advocate. [15:23]
Fines and fees. [17:38]
Eligibility. [21:08]
Ernie’s work at the NAPD. [37:32]
Caseloads. [48:40]
Ethics in the legal profession. [52:14]

Guest:

Ernie Lewis, Former Public Advocate of Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the NAPD

Resources:

Public Advocacy Commission Justice Jeopardized Final Report

NAPD

NAPD Principles

Department of Public Advocacy

Department of Public Advocacy FY19 Annual Report

Indigency Determination Statute

KY Rev Stat § 31.211 (2021)

Memorable Quotes:

“I then wanted to go to law school and represent poor people to give justice to poor people.” (10:35, Ernie)

“Since 1998, we were able to reduce reliance upon fines and fees considerably. So that by the time I left, our budget was about 40 million and only about 3 million of that 40 million came from fines and fees.” (17:45, Ernie)

“This is a state obligation to provide enough resources so that each person charged with a crime who is eligible for a public defender, gets a well-trained, qualified attorney with support staff.” (20:49, Ernie)

“Probably the biggest problem in indigent defense is the vast gap between representation for felonies and representation for misdemeanors, especially in lower level courts.” (28:11, Hunter)

“Indigent defense has always been one of the last priorities of government.” (43:58, Ernie)

“My generation of public defenders has participated in mass incarceration. We have witnessed just since 1970, the destruction of people, families, neighborhoods, and we've become now the place with the highest percentages of incarceration in the world.” (55:38, Ernie)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Public Service Loan Forgiveness

35: Public Service Loan Forgiveness and Student Debt with Jane Fox and Kyle Morris

5 augusti 2022 | 94 min

This week, Hunter sat down with Jane Fox and Kyle Morris to discuss one of the pressing issues facing millions of Americans: Student Loans.

As of today, there is roughly $1.75 trillion in student loans that remain outstanding. For many, these debts will carry with them until they hit retirement age. This is a debt that cannot be discharged via bankruptcy and the high interest rates make it extremely difficult for those in low paying public service jobs to ever pay off the principle. That is where Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) comes into play.

While it is far from a perfect program, PSLF has helped thousands of people serving the public. After 10 years of service and 10 years of payments, certain loans can be completely forgiven. Yet, the program, as many government programs are, is extremely cumbersome to navigate. Recognizing these difficulties and wanting to help, Jane and Kyle offer their expertise to guide people through the PSLF process to lift the burden of debt off of their shoulders!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How much Debt Kyle and Jane Had [15:00]

History of PSLF [24:00]

The Problems with Loan Servicers [28:00]

Specific Requirements for PSLF [32:00]

Hurdles to PSLF [34:110]

Future of PSLF and the Student Loan Industry [41:00]

PSLF Is For More than Just Attorneys [47:38]

The Politics of Student Loan Forgiveness [59:00]

Guests:

Jane Fox, Staff Attorney, New York Legal Aid Society

Kyle Morris, Public Defender, Nashville Public Defender Office

Memorable Quotes:

“Jane and I often joke that talking to servicers is like our clients talking to the Police. It’s usually not a good idea without an attorney present” – Kyle [28:45]

Resources:

Contact Kyle: [email protected]

Contact Jane: [email protected]

For Help with PSLF Call DOE Ombudsman

877-557-2575

Contact Hunter Parnell:

@PublicDefenselessPodcast

Free Justice: A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America

@PDefenselessPod

www.publicdefenseless.com

34: The History of Public Defense with Sara Mayuex

3 augusti 2022 | 60 min

Sara Mayeux is a law professor at Vanderbilt University and the author of the book Free Justice, A History of the Public Defender in 20th Century America.

Sara discusses the progressive era, the 1950s and the development of public defense of modern America, and the supreme court's role throughout it all.

The development of public defense has largely been dictated by the growth of the nation through urbanization, industrialization, and economic inequality. Sara and Hunter talk through how culture impacted the development of law as it stands today. This episode lays a foundational understanding of how our public defense came to be what it is today. A must-listen!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

The 3 topics of Sara’s book: Free Justice [3:02]
How quickly political concepts can switch their meaning and understanding based on the cultural context that people are raised in. [4:04]
Background and experience of Sara Mayeux [6:10]
The era of mass incarceration [7:03]
What the progressive era looked like, and how this culture impacted the criminal courts and criminal system. [12:35]
Defense law perspective versus the state [22:51]
The disparity between east coast and west coast public defenders in the 1950s. [31:20]
The impact of the cold war on public defense. [37:40]
The OJ Trial and people getting off due to technicalities in the legal system. [49:58]
The American Bar Association’s approach [52:00]

Guest:

Sara Mayuex, Professor of Law and History, Vanderbilt University

Memorable Quotes:

“There's this broader cultural sense in which we think of American law as adversarial. Meaning that, especially in a criminal case, the defendant is up against the state and that's his adversary or enemy. And so of course, the defense lawyer and the prosecutor are going to see themselves as doing battle. And they're not going to see themselves as having any kind of shared goal or shared mission.” - Sara Mayeux

“The dominant standard understanding of what happens with respect to public policy debates during the Cold War is that anything that looks even remotely too much like communism or socialism is basically written out of the realm of possibility for American policymakers.” - Sara Mayeux

Get Sara Mayeux’s Book:

https://uncpress.org/book/9781469661650/free-justice/

https://law.vanderbilt.edu/bio/sara-mayeux

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Mass Bar Report on Attorney Pay

33: How Could Low Attorney Pay Cripple Massachusetts Public Defense w/Anthony Benedetti

27 juli 2022 | 73 min

The Massachusetts public defense system presents arguably the best example of how contract public defense could work, largely in part to today’s guest—Anthony Benedetti, Chief Public Defender of Massachusetts.

Their system is made up of approximately 80% contract attorneys, and in this episode, Anthony walks us through how he helps to oversee these attorneys and ensures a quality level of representation for all.

He’ll also break down the complicated funding of the system, and why $60 per hour just doesn’t cut it.

Anthony is working hard to create a future where more layers will want to go into public defense and is optimistic that the Massachusetts indigent defense system will continue to improve!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Who Anthony is and what he does. [9:29]
What Massachusetts public defense looks like and how it took its form. [13:25]
Legislation advocacy done by Anthony’s office. [18:24]
Training and performance standards for Massachusetts contract attorneys. [20:17]
Why the Massachusetts pay rates aren’t enough. [31:00]
Justifying the high attorney standards with the lack of pay. [41:37]
How attorney shortages have affected Massachusetts. [49:37]
Defining what a crime is. [1:05:50]

Guest:

Anthony Benedetti, Chief Counsel, Committee for Public Counsel Services

Resources:

CPCS Webpage

@CPCSnews Twitter

2004 Report

Assigned Counsel Manual

Memorable Quotes:

“It's one thing in theory to talk about public defender pay and how much people make and, and all these things. But at the end of the day, it's the working-class Americans who were represented by these people who pay the price.” (6:08, Hunter)

“I like to tell people that there are just so many injustices on a daily basis, that it is pretty easy to get re-pissed off and realize that you have to keep up the fight each and every day on behalf of our clients.” (12:40, Hunter)

“I think it's, there are a whole range of reasons why people choose to do this work, but at the end of the day, when they choose to do this work, they have to do it in a certain way.” (23:05, Anthony)

“It is really hard for us to get people out of law school who want to do this full-time or close to full-time.” (42:56, Anthony)

“The longer that you go without counsel, the more you are disadvantaged being able to present a defense.” (51:32, Anthony)

“I'm pretty confident that things are going to get better in Massachusetts.” (1:08:35, Anthony)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

State of Nevada v. Second Judicial District Court. 453 P2d 421. at 424 (Nevada 1969)

32: Why Nevada Public Defense Failed and the Plan to Build it Back w/Franny Forsman

20 juli 2022 | 69 min

Franny Forsman has been working in Nevada indigent defense for several decades, and today she brings her impressive breadth of experience to the show!

Franny is a former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada who has worked long and hard to improve the system.

Today, she speaks with us about how the ACLU lawsuit has brought drastic changes to the state of Nevada and why there are still so many weaknesses.

She’ll explain how the Nevada public defense system handles the massive amount of rural coverage and share her dream for the future of the state.

Franny will reassure you that all together, Nevada’s public defense system is heading in the right direction!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

A history lesson on Nevada public defense. [2:36]
Franny’s background and role in Nevada public defense. [12:49]
What Franny took away from her time as a social worker. [14:33]
The major pushback from the legislature around funding. [20:18]
Pleading guilty. [35:16]
What has changed since the ACLU lawsuit. [40:17]
Why the new system will be different. [58:32]
How rural counties are handled. [59:17]

Guest:

Franny Forsman, Former Post Conviction Indigent Defense Counsel in Nevada

Resources:

ACLU Law Suit

6AC Report Nevada

NLADA Report Clark County

DIDS Website

Memorable Quotes:

“It's David Carroll who said in his interview, a radical way to fix the system is to simply look at how many people are not actually getting attorneys. Look at how many cases are actually being carried. Look at how little work is being done in these cases.” (6:51, Hunter)

“There was never a consequence to the state to underfund the system.” (20:41, Franny)

“It's the state's responsibility to make sure that this gets right. It's the enforcement of all of the laws, including the sixth amendment that the state is responsible for.” (34:07, Franny)

“Wherever you live, find the nearest courtroom. Odds are if you walked in there and you see a public defender working and you asked them how many cases do you take a year, more likely than not, they are going to have absolutely no idea.” (53:56, Hunter)

“My feeling is that we will always have to have contract lawyers because of conflicts of interest.” (1:01:55, Franny)

Contact Hunter Parnell:[email protected]

Choosing Justice Initiative

31: The Wrongful Conviction of Cyrus Wilson with Cyrus Wilson and Dawn Deaner

13 juli 2022 | 104 min

On the night of September 15, 1992, in the Nashville Tennessee area, teenager Christopher Luckett was shot and killed.

Two days later, another teenager Cyrus Wilson was arrested for the crime. Even though there was only circumstantial evidence and many witnesses later admitted they were coerced into lying, Cyrus was found guilty and spent over 20 years in prison.

Today, he is 48 years old and still fighting for his innocence while on parole.

In this episode, Cyrus tells his story and how he is working to get the verdict overturned. Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative joins him to add her expert perspective.

The fact is, thousands of innocent people are sitting in jail right now, powerless and without the resources they need.

The question is, how can we get the system to listen and take action?

Key Topics and Takeaways:

A quick summary of the case. [0:18]
Dawn talks about her public defense background. [16:58]
Why Cyrus originally waived his right to an attorney and what his later attorney interactions looked like. [26:16]
The appeals process. [45:20]
Where accountability should be put in place. [52:13]
Reasons attorneys and judges become complacent. [1:06:16]
Lawyers and judges need to understand the power they have. [1:17:29]
Cyrus’s life on parole. [1:22:45]
How Cyrus is still trying to prove his innocence. [1:29:34]
Two things Cyrus wants people to understand. [1:36:40]

Guests:

Cyrus Wilson

Dawn Deaner, Former Public Defender in Nashville, Founder and Executive Director of the Choosing Justice Initiative

Resources:

Contact Cyrus Wilson

Read about Cyrus' Case

The Trials of Cyrus Wilson

Cyrus Wilson Granted Parole, Set to Be Released

Memorable Quotes:

“Once the police hone in on their guy, it can be difficult to get them off that gut intuition that police are very often instructed to follow.” (1:53, Hunter)

“If we continue to believe that the only way victims can be made whole is by somebody going to jail, then we are gonna continue to end up in situations like this, where, who cares who goes to jail as long as somebody did.” (12:48, Hunter)

“I don't necessarily know that there were more problems in public defense 30 years ago than there are today. I think that things have been bad and they've been bad a very long time.” (31:26, Dawn)

“You can't give someone like 50 cases and understand that and think that they're realistically going to investigate cases appropriately.” (51:32, Cyrus)

“We need to recognize that lawyers and judges in positions of power perpetuate this system that oppresses people.” (53:09, Dawn)

“I've never committed a crime and I could be continually detained and incarcerated for something that I did not do that I'm still held accountable for right now in this moment. No matter what kind of life I create, it could be taken away at the drop of a hat simply because this situation has never been totally corrected.” (1:24:02, Cyrus)

“Innocent people and people who are not necessarily innocent should be treated justly and fairly without bias.” (1:37:29, Cyrus)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

1999 Spangenberg Group Report

30: How Tennessee Fails to Protect Children Accused of Crimes w/Mark Stephens

6 juli 2022 | 62 min

In this episode, I speak with Mark Stephens, the former chief public defender of Knoxville Tennessee.

Tennessee public defense has been stuck in neutral, if not reverse for a long time. In fact, almost everything was established in the 90’s and hasn’t changed much since.

Rutherford county incarcerated approximately 48% of children referred to juvenile court in 2014, and the statewide average for juvenile incarceration is 5%. Today, we talk about two alarming reports that have been released discussing the representation of juvenile offenders in the state.

In Tennessee, public defenders are elected to 4 and 8-year terms. Mark also highlights how this unique system affects the levels of representation and the bottom line.

Overall, Mark leaves us with his ideas for a better system and the hope that the Tennessee public defense system will change for good.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Mark’s position in Tennessee public defense and how he got there. [6:28]
Elected public defenders. [10:48]
Public defender workloads and caseloads. [15:16]
One of the biggest issues facing Tennessee public defense today. [20:10]
Community outreach. [26:29]
Holistic representation and public defense. [37:19]
The average people going through the Tennessee indigent system. [41:06]
Resources at a county level. [46:03]

Guest:

Mark Stephens, Former Chief Defender of Knoxville Public Defense

Resources:

ProPublica Report

Shelby County Juvenile System Report

Knoxville Public Defender

Nashville Public Defender

Memorable Quotes:

“Children, for the most part, we have an opportunity to rehabilitate them.” (3:23, Hunter)

“Public defenders are paid the same that assistant district attorneys and district attorneys are paid, which is the way I think it ought to be.” (14:52, Mark)

“People generally don't care about the adults that are in the criminal justice system, because we've got this idea that they're all bad people and that they're all guilty.” (25:59, Mark)

“This state of crisis or chaos that a criminal charge brings in a person's life is also an opportunity for that person and that public defender to bring about change.” (38:12, Mark)

“I think the legislature has been shortsighted in terms of fully understanding the potential within the public defender office.” (47:32, Mark)

“People would disagree with me, but I think every aspect of the system, as I know it ought to be scrapped and redesigned.” (58:30, Mark)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Michigan Indigent Defense Commission

29: The Role a Judge can Play in Reforming Public Defense w/Tom Boyd

29 juni 2022 | 58 min

Today, you’ll hear about public defense from the judge’s point of view. Tom Boyd is a former Michigan District Court Judge who currently works in the court administration office.

At one point one of the weakest systems in the United States, his work to improve the indigent system has driven forward the future of Michigan public defense and has left a positive precedent for other states.

The 6th amendment is the ultimate protection against government power that is designed to keep people safe from a government acting out of control.

Many people believe that judges should be held accountable for protecting the constitution, so bettering the public defense system should be more of a priority.

Sharing his unique perspective, your mindset around public defense will be challenged and you’ll see that a lot more than you think goes into fair representation for all.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Tom’s background and his role in the Michigan indigent system. [6:01]
A judge’s function in the Michigan courtroom. [10:21]
Some history on the Michigan indigent defense system. [16:01]
What gets in the way of constitutionally adequate representation. [21:21]
Prosecutors and public defense. [28:03]
Ending the plea deal epidemic. [34:57]
Tom’s experience being on both sides of the bench. [45:42]
Where Tom wants Michigan public defense to go. [49:39]
Holding prosecutors accountable. [54:00]

Guests:

Tom Boyd, Former Michigan District Court Judge, Michigan State Court Administrator

Resources:

NLADA Report “Race to the Bottom”

Memorable Quotes:

“I want to talk to more than just public defenders. I want to talk to all range of people who are involved in the criminal justice system, because part of reform is going to require that all of the people in the system work together.” (2:07, Hunter)

“When you're the judge at the end of the conversation you win.” (13:35, Tom)

“If we can be crass about it, the judiciary is a service industry.” (22:05, Tom)

“I think that the Michigan indigent defense commission, which is still in its infancy, you know, six years, seven years, something like that. Has established itself as reliable and dedicated to advancement and done a good enough job that there are very few judges who fought the relinquishment of control.” (25:56, Tom)

“There are bad actors in the legal system who take advantage of individuals and they should be found, rooted out, and gotten out of the system.” (48:29, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Aurora Public Defender Commission

28: Public Defense Commissions with David Kaplan and Sara Hildebrand

22 juni 2022 | 61 min

Today, I speak with David Kaplan and Sara Hildebrand, two former Colorado public defenders and current members of the Aurora Public Defender Commission.

The three of us dive deep into Public Defense Commissions, how they function, and the important work they do in advocating for public defenders.

The commission side of public defense offers a unique insight into how policy is made and the types of negotiations that need to be made. The fact is, there’s more that goes into it than you might think!

If you are a public defender who wants to start a commission or someone who’s not an attorney and wants to get involved, this is the perfect episode for you!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Sara and David’s background. [5:27]
Sara’s challenges of being in a remote area. [11:01]
The progression of David’s career. [14:16]
Sara and David’s work in public policy. [20:10]
How the commission works with policymakers. [29:44]
Why commissions are important. [33:10]
Building institutional support. [37:38]
Staying on the peoples’ side. [50:31]

Guests:

David Kaplan, Former Colorado State Public Defender and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member

Sara Hildebrand former Public Defender in Durango/Arpahoe County and Aurora Public Defender Commission Member

Resources:

Memorable Quotes:

“You don't have to be a lawyer to make these changes, to be passionate about reform and taking efforts to change your community. That's a key goal. That's a key theme of this show is that you do not have to be an attorney to understand this and to make changes.” (2:27, Hunter)

“I think those of us who ended up being public defenders never lose the spirit of being a public defender.” (9:55, David)

“When you do policy work, you have to have a broader understanding. There has to be, I believe a greater amount of compromise.” (24:32, David)

“Our obligation as defenders, whether as a state defender or a municipal defender or a federal defender, is to zealously advocate for our clients. And like David was saying, that means that our clients should feel like they have the best lawyer in the courtroom.” (28:21, Sara)

“We represent the people and the community, right? And so in a democratic environment, that should mean something.” (40:01, Sara)

“I think a key part of our role is to humanize people that are accused in a system that's just expert at dehumanizing people.” (56:27, Sara)

27: The Innocence of Barry Jones and the Impacts of Shinn vs Ramirez with Sylvia Lett and Andrew Sowards

17 juni 2022 | 125 min

In 1994, Barry Jones was arrested for the rape and murder of his girlfriend's four-year-old daughter. Even though his innocence is obvious to all who would look, he sits on Arizona's death row, waiting to be executed for a crime he did not commit.

Sylvia Lett and Andrew Sowards are the former federal public defender and Investigator who worked on the case and join us for this special two-hour episode to give all the details.

They walk us through this horribly unjust trial and explain how the criminal justice system set Barry up for failure from the start.

From junk science to bad witnesses, nothing about this trial was fair. To make it worse, the Supreme Court has reaffirmed that actual proof of innocence is not enough to overturn an execution.

Syliva and Andrew’s account of this story will change the entire way you view the criminal justice system.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Sylvia and Andrew’s background and how they got Barry’s case. [10:13]
The police perspective. [21:37]
The lack of story in this case. [29:08]
The evidence provided. [30:29]
Junk science within the trial. [40:50]
Barry’s timeline on the day of the crime. [57:29]
How to bring an innocence claim into federal court. [1:14:31]
Dr. Howard’s testimony. [1:24:43]
What finality is and why it’s there. [1:42:45]
The conviction integrity unit. [1:49:27]

Guests:

Sylvia Lett, Professor of Law at the University of Arizona and Former Federal Public Defender

Andrew Sowards, Former Federal Public Defender Investigator

Resources:

The Intercept Story of Barry Jones

Arizona Capital Representation Project

Arizona Innocence Project

After Speaking with Barry, Sylvia informed me that he welcomed letters from those with “authentic interest in the injustices in his case”. He would welcome correspondence to speak about his case. While he says he has no time for sympathy, I can only imagine showing him that there are people who care, who see the injustice done to him, and who are fighting to lift up his story will help him maintain his fighting spirit. Please do not write to him simply for the novelty of writing to someone on death row and please mark all mail with "NON-LEGAL MAIL" His address is: Barry Lee Jones, ADOC #114690 ASPC Florence Browning Unit P.O. Box 8200 Florence, AZ 85132

Memorable Quotes:

“A just system is not just one that protects the innocent. It also protects everybody involved in it because that is a merciful system.” (8:10, Hunter)

“Barry's case is kind of the poster case of failures all around, in many ways.” (31:54, Sylvia)

“So often we think justice is solving the crime, but justice also involves making sure that we are doing right by the accused.” (47:47, Hunter)

“If you don't know the person, if you don't live with them, don't be judging their emotion, their emotional response, because every single person is different.” (51:36, Andrew)

“If you are concerned or worried about state power and the threat of the state, I promise you that it is the work of federal public defenders, federal investigators, and public defenders around the country who will do more to protect you from the power of the state than a gun ever will.” (1:48:49, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

2009 National Academy of Sciences Report

26: Junk Science and the Makings of a Wrongful Conviction with Chris Fabricant

15 juni 2022 | 71 min

Like most people, shows like CSI, Law and Order, or even Dexter, may have you convinced that the science used to convict people is airtight. Everything from bite marks, blood spatter, and even finger prints, must be scientifically valid...right?

What if I told you, almost all of it is predicated on junk science and the failings of the legal system to catch it? Today’s guest is on the show to highlight this and the infrastructure that has been created to support wrongful convictions.

Chris Fabricant is the Director of Strategic Litigation at the Innocence Project and the author of Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System.

In this episode, we will go over some of the findings in Chris' book that help us to understand how the legal system allowed bad science to become such a powerful tool to wrongfully convict thousands of Americans.

Giving his solutions to the junk science problem, Chris will leave you with the hope that it will one day be no more.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Hunter’s definition of a wrongful conviction. [6:25]
How junk science got into the criminal system. [13:37]
The issue with pattern matching. [23:09]
Society’s strong desire to punish. [31:12]
How the Supreme Court has played a role in wrongful convictions and mass incarceration. [37:06]
The principle of finality. [38:03]
Denialism around actual innocence. [47:17]
Promoting scientific literacy among lawyers. [1:06:25]

Guest:

Chris Fabricant, Director of Strategic Litigation, Innocence Project

Resources:

2016 PCAST Forensic Science Report

Buy Chris’s Book Junk Science and the American Criminal Justice System

Memorable Quotes:

“I don't think people actually want to live in the type of society that our legal principles say we should be living in.” (4:50, Hunter)

“What we know about the law as compared to science is that the law is stable.” (22:17, Chris)

“In reality, crime usually happens. Police get together, form their suspect. And then, a lot of the analysis of the evidence is then with that suspect in mind.” (27:39, Hunter)

“Science should always be objective, it should be separated from the adversarial process.” (29:40, Chris)

“There’s widespread scientific illiteracy in the bar.” [50:59, Chris)

“Once you're accused unless you can afford really, really good counsel, you're kind of fucked.” (59:56, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

FY19 Kentucky Department of the Public Advocate Annual Report

25: The Need for Mercy in the Kentucky Legal System w/Ed Monahan

8 juni 2022 | 62 min

In 1976, Ed Monahan was hired as a Kentucky assistant public defender. He would eventually go on to be the state’s Public Advocate for an impressive 9 years.

Although he no longer fills that position, today Ed comes on Public Defenseless to talk about the impactful work he did in that role and the advocacy he continues to do today.

He’ll also give you a good overview of the public defense system in Kentucky. While the state has a good foundation, it still desperately lacks funding.

In a state that has one of the highest incarceration rates in the nation, Ed Monahan is turning around the system for the better.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Ed’s background and how he got to where he is today. [9:57]
The evolution of Kentucky public defense. [12:01]
Alternative sentencing. [26:36]
Ed explains Marsy’s Law. [38:04]
Why many people don’t believe in “innocent until proven guilty.” [42:09]
The greatest public defense victories in Kentucky. [45:23]
The NAPD standard that gets the least attention and the most important one. [52:22]
The importance of having a private place for legal communication. [56:58]

Guest:

Ed Monahan, Former Public Advocate for the Commonwealth Kentucky, Former Executive Director of the National Association of Public Defenders Fund for Justice, Active Contributor to National Association of Public Defenders' Policy

Resources:

Ed Monahan OpEd on Bad Statistics Driving Policy

Ed Monahan & Nina Ginsberg on Marsy's Law

Farewell Address from Ed Monahan

NAPD Policy on Active Supervision

NAPD Policy on Staffing

NAPD Policy on Independence

NAPD Policy on Proper Professional Space

Memorable Quotes:

“I came on without any training. I was just handed cases. And so I knew there was a better way.” (17:54, Ed)

“We have good training culture of active supervision, but what Kentucky has not had is adequate funding through all these years.” (20:25, Ed)

“There still are many public policy leaders in Kentucky who when faced with those facts of reduced crime rates still have this desire to incarcerate more people for longer periods of time. It's really a financially imprudent and counterproductive way for Kentucky to use its limited resources.” (28:27, Ed)

“I really believe as public defender leaders, we have to do a better job of communicating the public value of public defense.” (34:54, Ed)

“I do public defender work out of my deep held beliefs that poor people deserve to have the best representation that money could buy.” (38:51, Ed)

“Having realistic hope in what's possible in the future is the motivation to continue to apply the talents and skills any of us have to work for a better criminal justice system.” (47:50, Ed)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Prince George County Court Watchers

24: How the Media Poisons Criminal Justice Discourse with Scott Hechinger

1 juni 2022 | 63 min

Scott Hechinger is the founder and executive director of Zealous. Through his work, he is fighting hard to challenge injustice through the media and topple the imbalance of power within the criminal justice system.

As a former public defender in the Bronx system, he comes on today’s episode to talk all about New York Public Defense and his work to make it fairer for all. He explains how he collaborates with the media to change the narrative around public defense and break long-held stigmas. He also shares how he encourages all members of the public defense system to come together for positive change.

Scott is an impressive example of one individual who is changing the public defense system for good!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Who Scott is and his role in public defense. [8:53]
How public defense in New York has changed. [11:17]
Why fear hurts the public defense system. [18:54]
What people are getting wrong about bail reform. [27:49]
Reasons the media is biased. [34:07]
Why police and prosecutors often lie to the media. [40:51]
Defining justice. [51:48]
Scott’s goals moving forward. [57:33]

Resources:

Zealous

Follow Scott on Twitter

Memorable Quotes:

“When we see public defenders in the news, it's often saying no comment, we kind of model that behavior and assume that we're not supposed to talk.” (16:24, Scott)

“If we actually cared about public health and safety, we wouldn't be investing billions into costly and cruel and failed solutions.” (19:19, Scott)

“Here's what people need to know: the reality is that bail reform is consistent with greater public safety.” (33:04, Scott)

“I think people just need to realize that, to tell a whole story. You need every aspect of that story. You can't just listen to the same side because they're going to have the same biases.” (41:35, Hunter)

“I know that when folks are locked up and pushed away, not forced to confront the pain that they caused, it's actually not holding folks accountable. It’s easier to put it out of sight out of mind”. (56:35, Scott)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

23: Gideon's Promise and Public Defense Culture with Jon Rapping

25 maj 2022 | 63 min

Jon Rapping is a former public defender dedicated to changing the system and advocating for true equality.

The founder of Gideon’s Promise, this nonprofit organization is on a mission to build a movement of public defenders that can drive transformative change within the criminal legal system.

In this episode, Jon talks about the challenges of shaping the culture of a public defender office to one that is capable of providing client centered public defense.

He explains why so many young public defenders come into this field passionate and ready to drive change, but end up burning out and going with the status quo.

By mentoring these lawyers and building a community to support them, public defenders receive strategies to close the gap between themselves and their clients.

The criminal justice and public defense systems might be dysfunctional, but this episode will give you hope that positive change is on the horizon.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Who Jon is and what he does at Gideon’s Promise. [0:21]
Why Washington DC has such a strong public defense system. [2:55]
The reasons that Americans have embraced the tough-on-crime movement. [12:39]
Overcoming discrimination. [16:29]
The power of storytelling. [27:11]
Fixing law schools. [31:36]
What client-centered really means. [43:58]
Addiction and mental health issues. [46:56]

Guest:

Jon Rapping, Executive Director/Co-Founder of Gideon's Promise

Resources:

Gideon’s Promise

Gideon’s Promise Podcast

@gideonspromise

@Gideons_Promise

Memorable Quotes:

“Systems that lack funding and lack independence very quickly develop a culture where public defenders are pushed to go along with the status quo to please judges and value efficiency over representing clients and valuing justice.” (4:45, Jon)

“No longer do we really believe in a criminal legal system like the founders envisioned. It is a system for perpetuating control of people.” (10:45, Jon)

“The public is fed a narrative that says marginalized communities, black and brown communities, are dangerous, they're a threat.” (13:19, Jon)

“Law schools are failing at the responsibility of producing lawyers who understand what justice is.” (27:53, Jon)

“Culture is a function of our values.” (38:44, Jon)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Far West Texas Regional Public Defender

22: How Automation Can Help Public Defense with Rocky Ramirez and Paul Chambers

18 maj 2022 | 62 min

In a profession steeped in tradition, technological advances can come slowly to the legal world. Given the strapped for cash nature of Public Defense, it is essential that PDs break from the tech aversion prevalant in the legal world.

That's where my guests for today's show come into play. Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel in Bexar County, Texas, and Paul Chambers, Public Defender at the Far West Texas Office, are on a mission to modernize the system.

Public defenders almost notoriously never have enough time. But when Rocky and Paul discovered automation, they found a way to speed up the system while giving public defenders time to do more things aimed at client focused representation.

In this episode, Rocky and Paul talk about how they’ve implemented automation within the Texas indigent system and the positive effects it’s had for all parties involved.

Their passion for creating a system that better helps their clients in cost effective ways could truly revolutionize the way many offices are doing buisness!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Where Rocky and Paul fit into the Texas public defense system. [7:28]
What public defenders don’t have time to do. [16:36]
How they implemented automation into their offices. [22:43]
What could go wrong with computer automation. [34:42]
Assigned council contract counsel and automation. [39:32]
The evolution of automation. [48:20]
Pushbacks to automation. [54:07]

Guests:

Rocky Ramirez, Managed Assigned Counsel, Legal Technology Resource Attorney, Bexar County Texas

Paul Chambers, Public Defender Far West Texas Office

Resources:

Memorable Quotes:

“I think that's a very positive thing for people to hear criminal defense attorneys have souls.” (10:16, Hunter)

“I kind of started focusing my time on learning these domains, learning about data science, learning about process automation, robotic process automation, business, process automation, trying to kind of stamp my feet and say, hey, we gotta be paying attention to this. This is something that could really change the game.” (16:03, Paul)

“The things that we as attorneys need to be focused on is the thing that we have the least amount of time to do, which is why the system is exactly the way it is.” (19:24, Paul)

“You've got people doing things, these tedious processes that take hours, and they can be boiled down to a click of a button.” (26:45, Rocky)

“The future for public defenders, I think is pretty huge. I can see a world where as close to zero of repetitive data entry and non-legal work is happening on a case or in an office. And that means a lot.” (43:09, Paul)

“The point is you can't get somebody to create something for you. We're moving to a world where we create it for ourselves.” (49:49, Rocky)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Aurora Public Defender Office

21: Public Defense Appellate Law and PD Commissions with Frances Brown

11 maj 2022 | 68 min

Ready to hear about a different type of law?

So far, we’ve spoken to many public defenders who have done work on the trial level, but today I talk to someone who can take you into the nuances of appellate law.

In this episode, I speak with Frances Brown: a former appellate public defender, former Chief Administrative Officer of the Colorado State Public Defender Office, and a current member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission.

Frances brings a wealth of knowledge with her about what really goes into appellate law and the unique types of arguments that can be made.

She is also a veteran of the legal industry, so she’ll take you through what she has seen around the growth of women in the legal profession.

Lastly, Frances shares key insight into what goes into the policies and practices of the Public Defender Commissions.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Frances’ career and how she got started. [0:36]
How appellate representations are different from trial work. [18:38]
The complexities of appeals. [27:41]
Greatest policy victories in Colorado. [31:21]
What Frances’ current role looks like. [45:24]
How Frances has moved forward public defense in Aurora. [50:15]
How Women’s rights have increased in the public defense system. [1:03:54]

Guest:

Frances Brown, Former Chief Administrative Officer of Colorado State Public Defender Office, Current Member of the Aurora Public Defender Commission

Resources:

Memorable Quotes:

“I love my job. And I always did. And I do feel very blessed for that.” (18:26, Frances)

“The main thing about appellate law is everything you do is based on the record.” (19:49, Frances)

“The biggest part of being a public defender is the ability to go to court.” (40:19, Frances)

“I felt very strongly for many, many years that the public defender system would benefit tremendously from having social workers.” (41:44, Frances)

“I am an expert in an area of law that nobody needs to be an expert in, which is conflict of interest in public defender offices.” (49:07, Frances)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

George Kaiser Family Foundation

20: Representing Mothers in Tulsa, Oklahoma with Aisha McWeay

4 maj 2022 | 64 min

Aisha McWeay is a former public defender and the Executive Director of Still She Rises, the first holistic defense office in the country dedicated exclusively to the representation of mothers in both the criminal and civil legal systems.

Today's episode brings to light the unique challenges that mothers face as they navigate the complicated legal world they face in the greater Tulsa community.

Still She Rises stands out as an organization that seeks to use the skills of a broad team of attorneys, social workers, client advocates, and community resources specialists to get the needs of each of their clients met.

While Aisha and her team take this holistic approach to reach the best possible outcomes for their clients, Aisha and I discussed the many shortfalls that Public Defense in Oklahoma faces because of decades of underfunding.

Of all the takeaways from this episode, Aisha I think best lays out just what holistic defense looks like in practice, and acts as an example to those that think progress cannot happen in a place like Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Note: This episode was recorded on March 17th 2022

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Aisha got into public defense and the role she is in now. [7:28]
The legal world’s perception of public defense. [14:50]
The unique needs of women who go through the legal system. [20:53]
What public defense looks like in Oklahoma. [25:48]
What a holistic defense model looks like. [39:11]
How Aisha helps her clients with children. [49:28]
The art of storytelling. [53:00]
Where Aisha wants public defense in Oklahoma to head. [58:37]

Guest:

Aisha McWeay, Executive Director of Still She Rises

Resources:

Still She Rises

Tulsa Race Massacre

OK Criminal Justice Reform

Memorable Quotes:

“That got me to be so interested in interning with the public defender’s office, and quite frankly, I fell in love with the work. I fell in love with representing clients. I fell in love with trying to use my skills to help humanize and tell the client’s story.” (8:47, Aisha)

“As a whole, particularly in America, public interest-driven law is the minority.” (17:10), Aisha)

“There’s so many things that happen that aren’t criminal, that are impacting the lives that then get people to criminal.” (25:24, Hunter)

“When someone is arrested, they should be able to have some say in who is representing them.” (29:51, Aisha)

“An attorney, despite what some of them say is not always the smartest person in the room, in every single topic.” (44:49, Hunter)

“Ultimately the call on whether someone can or can't do a thing is not up to us as their attorney. It is up to us to certainly give them as much information as possible to make really honest and informed decisions.” (50:46, Aisha)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

Pennsylvania Committee on racial and Gender and Bias in the Justice System

19: How Pennsylvania's Failure to Fund Public Defense Hurts Everyone w/Keisha Hudson

27 april 2022 | 66 min

In Philadelphia, a whopping 70% of people arrested are represented by public defenders.

In this episode, I speak with Keisha Hudson, the Chief Defender of the Philadelphia Defender Association.

She walks me through the ins and outs of the indigent defense system in Pennsylvania, and how she deals with the lack of funding and support from the legislature.

Pennsylvania stands as one of the only states that provides 0 funding to Public Defenders at the trial level. This lack of funding often forces public defenders to fight the county governments for desperately needed funding. In our conversation, Keisha shares with us her fight for funding in Montgomery County.

Despite the lack of funding, Keisha will show us how she is able to lead the Philadelphia Defender Association to be renowned as one of the best offices in the state despite the lack of support.

With her expertise and passion, Keisha was a fantastic guest to discuss the challenging cases Public Defenders can face and how failing to fund Public Defense rested at the heart of the Kids for Cash Scandal in Luzerne County.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Keisha’s background and where she fits into the system. [0:32]
How public defenders are using strategic advocacy. [9:27]
Building relationships with media. [13:20]
The role of restorative justice. [19:33]
Why Philadelphia has such a strong public defense system. [41:45]
What’s going to bring change? [38:38]
Where Keisha wants public defense to go. [48:24]

Guest:

Keisha Hudson, Chief Defender Philadelphia Defender Association

Resources:

Forward Justice

Philly Defenders

Task Force and Advisory Committee on Services to Indigent Criminal Defendants

Cash for Kids Scandal

Lawsuit Against Luzerne County

Memorable Quotes:

“If you are looking to do public defense and you want to learn how to be an incredible trial lawyer, then come to Philadephia. We have earned and enjoyed a reputation for our zealous advocacy in and out of the courtroom.” (1:58, Keisha)

“We are appointed in every case where someone cannot afford counsel. And when you have an office that's not funded and resourced, it presents a significant constitutional challenge in meeting those requirements of zealous and effective advocacy.” (5:29, Keisha)

“You can find something redeeming about every human being.” (18:02, Keisha)

“I think if you balance the scales and if you have a well-funded, well-resourced public defender office who can push those issues and not fear political repercussions from county commissioners or from the bench, you are able to make a better impact.” (36:54, Keisha)

“If we truly prevent crime and lower crime rates and impact public safety, then we need to reinvest in solutions we know work and in a robust social safety net.” (47:44, Keisha)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

State of Louisiana v Covington

18: Data-Driven Public Defense Policy with Stephen Hanlon

20 april 2022 | 64 min

In today’s episode, I speak with Stephen Hanlon, who has been working for over 30 years to drive forward public interest law.

With the depth of his experience to back him up, he’ll explain how data is the key to pushing forward legislation and law suits that can help to reshape and empower public defense.

When advocating for a change to any system, there has to be mutli-faceted approaches. Some people respond well to the emotional stories. For others, it is data they find the most compelling, and that is what Stephen brings to the table. Data to help bolster the compelling stories of defenders and their clients from around the country.

Stephen Hanlon holds a tremendous amount of wisdom and his passion for bettering the system will inspire you to take action!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Stephen made his way into the public defense system. [9:37]
Handling states that won’t listen to data. [20:42]
Case refusal. [25:31]
Why the public defense system needs business plans. [27:14]
Will we ever be in a place where public defenders only take the cases they can handle? [33:19]
How contract-dependent states should be handled. [52:24]
A message from Stephen to the future generations of attorneys. [58:57]

Guest:

Stephen Hanlon, a leader in Public Interest Law over the last 50 years

Resources:

State of Missouri V Waters

Equal Defense Act of 2019

Memorable Quotes:

“Are we willing to live in a society that reflects the principles that we say we value?” (5:56, Hunter)

“I want a lever. I want to be the leveraging force to incentivize and indeed force change.” (13:01, Stephen)

“The whole problem with this thing is that there’s no business plan for the criminal processing system. We should have never agreed to do this.” (27:14, Stephen)

“Without an adequate defense lawyer, a court is not properly constituted.” (31:36, Stephen)

“Implore your representatives to ask questions besides guns and abortions.” (39:06, Hunter)

“The federal is the floor, the states are the ceiling. Go for the ceiling!” (40:06, Stephen)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

17: Public Defenseless 202

13 april 2022 | 60 min

In this special solo episode, I share some thoughts on the first 16 episodes, thoughts from my interactions with people who have reached out, and the direction the show will be going over the next few points

I wanna first thank all the people who have gone through the system who have reached out for help/advice/or to share your story. This project is designed to correct the system so that it helps people like yourself, so thank you!

In light of the nomination hearings for soon to be Justice Jackson, I was yet again struck by the fear of being soft on crime. As I discusss in this episode, the Constitution, the bedrock of the American legal system is incredibly soft on crime. I talk a lot about how we manage our desire for justice and the obligations to protect the rights of people.

Lastly, I cover the danger I see in our legal system continuing to march away from jury trials and instead towards plea deals.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Difficulties in building Trust between PDs and clients [1:43]
Soft on crime policies. [9:55]
Why jury trials are so important. [13:03]
The issues with plea deals. [19:09]
What Hunter has learned from each episode to date. [25:44]
The importance of supervision. [33:45]
The intersection of race and class. [45:32]

Memorable Quotes:

“The most consistent thing I hear from people who reach out to me is the mistrust in the indigent defense with public defenders.” (1:49, Hunter)

“If our founding fathers wanted to make a harsh on crime policy, a pro-police constitution, I’m going to tell you they couldn’t have done a worse job of doing it.” (9:55, Hunter)

“The theme is so clear, ladies and gentleman, that we are no longer a system of trials. We are a system of plea deals, and I do not think that bet drives us in the correct direction.” (21:29, Hunter)

“If you want public defenders to be better, it's good to have supervision in a lot of cases and have supervising attorneys who have that guiding hand and the knowledge to help people make more informed decisions.” (34:48, Hunter)

“If you actually look at the living wage standard in most states and most communities, we don't come anywhere close to giving attorneys to all the people who cannot actually afford them.” (46:41, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

16: Can Assigned Counsel Public Defense System Work? w/Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall

6 april 2022 | 55 min

16: South Dakota Public Defense w/ Tim Rensch & Bob Pesall

South Dakota is like many states around the country in that there are some public defender offices in the “cities,” but the rest of the state is served through an assigned council system.

Today, I talk to two incredibly experienced and knowledgeable assigned councils in the state: Tim Rensch and Bob Pesall.

Each shares a different perspective on public defense in South Dakota, Tim being in an urban area and Bob being in a rural one.

With few outside evaluations of public defense in the state, we go through the nuances and strengths of the system in South Dakota.

Tim and Bob are two extraordinary examples of assigned councils that go above and beyond for their clients and truly care about the quality of the system.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

How Tim and Bob got into public defense & their roles. [5:49]
The number of assigned councils in the state. [12:54]
The Catastrophic Legal Expense Relief Program. [17:43]
The importance of expert witnesses. [22:02]
The struggles of those who suffer from addiction and mental illness in the system. [28:54]
How the debt of cycle perpetuates criminality. [47:02]
The future direction of public defense in South Dakota. [50:18]

Guests:

Tim Rensch, President Rensch Law Corporation, South Dakota Assigned Counsel,

Bob Pesall, Assigned Counsel, Flanders South Dakota

Resources:

Rensch Law Corporation

Pesall Law Firm

Memorable Quotes:

“I've never called myself a public defender. I always have said I'm a court-appointed lawyer and I've always had great admiration for the public defenders who work the ins and outs of the court system every day.” (7:21, Tim)

“It can be a little tricky when you try and weigh the cost-benefit of getting lawyers on board versus the actual seriousness of the case.” (17:11, Bob)

“So the judges really, truly want to get people what they need. They just don't want to be burning money on experts that are useless.” (25:44, Bob)

“I think meth is a horrible drug. It's the only drug for which you've never heard anybody advocate socially about any useful benefit whatsoever. And it's a shame what happens.” (34:25, Tim)

“I think people are indigent. That means that they don't have the money to hire a lawyer. And to me, it does seem unfair to take somebody who is defined as indigent and then force them to pay these attorney's fees. No matter the outcome.” (39:47, Tim)

“I think that there are good experiences and bad experiences. The experiences that I've had, and that I'm aware of are mostly good. People want defendants to be represented. They want them to be represented by good lawyers. They don't want to have to redo things three times. And generally, the thought is, is that the system wants to be fair and be good to people.” (51:14, Tim)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

1993 Spangenberg Group Report

15: Was a Lawsuit Enough to Fix Missouri Public Defense? w/Anthony Rothert

30 mars 2022 | 58 min

The Missouri public defense system has been shaped by lawsuits that the ACLU has brought forth.

Meet Anthony Rothert, one of the individuals behind those lawsuits.

Anthony is the Director of Integrated Advocacy at the American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri and is here today to give you the inside scoop on the cases.

You’ll learn the ins and outs of the indigent system in this state, from long wait times to high public defender turnover rates.

This episode will leave you with renewed hope that there are people out there working tirelessly to positively change the system for good.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Anthony’s role in the Missouri criminal justice system and the history of public defense in the state. [4:52]
How public defender turnover affects indigent clients. [9:32]
Public defense legislative history in the state. [12:27]
Ethical dilemmas in the Missouri indigent system. [19:52]
Anthony dives deep into the class-action lawsuits against the state of Missouri. [32:06]
Indigent wait times in Missouri. [37:56]
Goals for the future. [43:03]
Progressive prosecutors. [50:04]

Guest:

Anthony Rothert, Director of Integrated Advocacy, American Civil Liberties Union of Missouri

Resources:

ACLU of Missouri

2009 Spangenberg Report

2005 Spagenberg Group Report

Michael Barret Letter to Gov Nixon

2014 ABA Missouri Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

“Part of the reason attorneys leave is they’re overworked, they are not satisfied by their work because they don’t have time to do as good a job as they would like. And they’re not even paid well for it.” (15:24, Anthony)

“Defendants are faced with a choice. You can proceed without counsel, or you can wait.” (38:57, Anthony)

“We will be asking the court to enter a judgment in the case requiring the state to provide enough money so we don’t have waitlists.” (42:02, Anthony)

“We could decriminalize things. That would solve a lot.” (44:11, Anthony)

“It’s easy to say that the far-off bad guy is not good. But then when you work with attorneys who work in these offices, you realize, okay, they’re doing their job, which is to protect constitutional rights for individuals.” (48:09, Hunter)

Contact Hunter Parnell:

West Virginia Public Defender Services

14: West Virginia Public Defense with Dana Eddy & Stacey Fragile

23 mars 2022 | 72 min

West Virginia Public Defense with Dana Eddy & Stacey Fragile

When it comes to the public defense system, simple human connection is more important than you might think.

Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services, and Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit, are here to prove just that.

In this week’s episode, Dana and Stacey speak about their community outreach efforts in the state and how they are making a difference at a local level.

They share their arguments for a holistic defense model and lessening the time people spend in the criminal justice system.

You’ll learn that by connecting with people individually and focusing on the root of the problems, the entire public defense system could be changed for good.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

The structure of public defense in West Virginia and Dana’s role in it. [8:08]
Stacey’s role in West Virginia Public Defense. [12:34]
Community outreach programs in West Virginia. [18:57]
Drug decriminalization in the state. [28:25]
Public defense staffing issues in West Virginia. [49:56]
Stacey & Dana’s biggest goals for public defense in the state. [54:44]

Guests:

Dana Eddy, Executive Director of West Virginia Public Defender Services

Stacey Fragile, Chief Public Defender of the 10th Judicial Circuit

Resources:

Spangenberg Report West Virginia

West Virginia Annual Reports:

https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY18%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf

https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY17%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf

https://pds.wv.gov/Documents/FY16%20-%20Annual%20Report.pdf

Memorable Quotes:

“It’s hard to say in the state of West Virginia that we need more money. I do think we need to spend it more intelligently.” (14:17, Dana)

“It’s always going to be a challenge to get the community to accept individuals who have been convicted of criminal charges that carry with them the stigma of either a sex offense or violent offense.” (26:31, Dana)

“The stigma is still there locally with the citizens in terms of all drugs are bad drugs, and until that changes, I don’t see us legalizing.” (32:45, Stacey)

“If I have one thing on my Christmas wishlist for this season, it would be that we look at a different mechanism for appointing counsel to these cases, but it's going to be hard to convince local judges that they need to give up out of authority, that control, over their courtroom.” (47:52, Dana)

“What I would say is there’s a lack of people who are really dedicated to public service and the public mission.” (52:15, Dana)

“We have to remove the stigma regarding mental health or we’re never going to make progress as a society.” (1:09:14, Stacey)

Contact Hunter Parnell

Instagram Twitter

Florida Public Defender Association

13: How Florida Disregards the Right to Counsel w/Rex Dimmig

16 mars 2022 | 65 min

From Gideon to Argersinger, much of the legal framework for the public defense came about because of the flaws in Florida public defender system. As one of the only places in the country with elected public defenders, it offers up several quirks that should worry people about the status of public defense in the state.

Today, I speak about this complicated system with Rex Dimmig, Chief Public Defender of the Florida 10th Judicial District and President of the Florida Public Defender Association.

Without glossing over the weaknesses of the system, you’ll hear how asking for an attorney may eventually lead to you losing the right to vote, a shortage of investigators and staff, and an increasing number of ways the state makes you pay for a "free" attorney.

Rex gives you a behind-the-scenes glimpse of the Florida criminal justice system while stressing the importance of independence.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Rex’s background and role in the Florida indigent system. [4:37]
How a shortage of resources has created a crisis. [9:09]
Efforts to improve Florida public defense. [13:20]
Why Florida has elected public defenders. [20:11]
The problems of a fee-based model. [25:09]
Exploring the 6th amendment. [36:16]
What is contributing to the low levels of representation in the state of Florida. [45:00]
Florida’s failure in reducing recidivism.

Guest:

Rex Dimming, Chief Public Defender Florida 10th Judicial District & President of Florida Public Defender Association

Resources:

“Despite Common Belief, Floridians Can't Always Get a Free Public Defender.”

“Prosecutors, Public Defenders Face Case Backlogs and Smaller Budgets.” - The Florida Bar, August 11, 2020

Memorable Quotes:

“We’re generally satisfied with the distribution of resources, we’re not at all satisfied with the quantity of resources that we are given.” (8:34, Rex)

“I understand the concern that particularly in this hyper-partisan era, why some people might have some reservations about the elected process. All I can tell you is here in Florida. We haven't had that problem. The people who run for public defender are folks who are truly dedicated to the cause of indigent criminal defense.” (21:10, Rex)

“Next to funding, independence is one of the hardest things to establish and the hardest thing to maintain of any public defender system.” (23:06, Hunter)

“There’s got to be a serious exploration of ways to increase revenue that are not dependent upon user fees that are just never going to be paid in substantial numbers.” (34:55, Rex)

“In the effort to make sure that the worst perpetrators are punished, we create such a sweepingly aggressive punishment system that those who probably shouldn’t be given similar results in their life are then straddled with it.” (44:34, Hunter)

“What the goal of the criminal justice system has to be is to change people’s unlawful conduct. If that’s not the goal of your system, then locking somebody up, all that does is guarantee that once they’re back out, they’re going to re-offend.” (52:44, Rex)

12: Why Are Virginia Public Defenders Only Paid to Work on a Case for Two Hours? w/Amari Harris

9 mars 2022 | 58 min

In the American conversation, there is a large overlap between class and race. Yet very often, we underplay the role that class plays in the dynamics of our legal system

In today’s episode, Hunter chats with Amari Harris, the Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders to discuss those dynamics and more.

He describes his much-needed position within the Virginia public defense system, the broken payment structure for contract attorneys, the ways in which Virginia prosecutors can engage in trial by ambush, and the important of crafting public messaging around public defense to fit the demographics and needs of the communities they serve.

Amari bridges the gap between practicing public defenders and their clients—helping them effectively approach each client’s unique life experiences.

This episode challenges people to constantly think about how messaging around public defense will most effectively get people across the racial and socioeconmic spectrum to care about public defense reform.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

An overview of the Virginia public defense system & Amari’s role within it. [3:04]
Why many cases don’t get an investigation even though they need one. [18:26]
The negative impacts of “trial by ambush.” [21:03]
Ways that the rural areas are disadvantaged in Virginia. [24:57]
How Amari handles the massive amount of diversity in the state. [30:58]
Amari walks you through Virginia indigency standards. [43:55]
Hunter and Amari dig deep into class arguments. [46:15]
Amari’s goals for a better public defense system of tomorrow in Virginia. [50:01]

Guest:

Amari Harris, Equity Diversity and Inclusion Attorney for Virginia Public Defenders

Resources:

Virginia Defenders

Justice Forward

Gideon’s Promise

2016 ACLU report on Prosecutor Power

“Unparalleled Power: Commonwealth’s Attorneys, Voters and Criminal Just Reform in Virginia”. American Civil Liberties Union. June 2016. At Page 1-5.

Memorable Quotes:

“Being a great lawyer is fantastic, but you could be a great lawyer and a bad public defender if you can’t relate to your clients, if you can’t engender yourself to the community in some way, then you’re doing our clients a disservice.” (6:20, Amari)

“If there’s one thing that I know from just looking nationally, when you have a flat fee structure like this, you’re not getting investigation.” (18:09, Hunter)

“Just having someone that thinks a little bit differently than another person in the room makes that other person so much smarter than if they just read about the information.” (32:46, Amari)

“If we think of diversity and inclusion only as representing ethnic and racial things, you’re missing the point.” (34:53, Hunter)

“I think race does dictate a lot of what goes on in the criminal justice system and it’s been historic, but if you lead with that, then you will lose a lot of people.” (42:59, Amari)

“Every public defender who stays in this long enough will work under blue and red administration. And the idea that you simply have to throw up your hands and go ‘well shucks, wait till the guy who agrees with me comes into office’ is not workable.” (49:30, Hunter)

11: Is the Cannabis Industry Falling Short in its Fight? with Steve DeAngelo

2 mars 2022 | 64 min

Right now, approximately 40,000 people are incarcerated for cannabis-related charges, while others are making millions of dollars in the legal industry.

Steve DeAngelo, often considered “the father of the legal industry,” has been fighting for reform since the 1970s.

In today’s episode, Steve is here to talk about his work to reform both the cannabis industry and state laws through his organization the Last Prisoner Project.

He’ll disprove the common misconceptions around cannabis while teaching you the spirit of the plant.

Steve will leave you with a clear image of the ideal cannabis industry and will also give you arguments for cannabis reform to keep in your back pocket.

Just by listening to this episode and sharing the information, you can be a part of the change!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

What the Last Prisoner Project is and why it’s important. [10:33]
Decriminalization vs. full legalization. [19:53]
Bringing people who were harmed by cannabis prohibition into the legal industry. [22:19]
Protecting yourself against the predatory cannabis industry. [29:56]
Should cannabis reform be a primary issue? [31:40]
The importance of coalition building. [33:53]
Exploring faith-based opposition. [40:03]
Legalization of other psychoactive plants. [49:48]

Guest:

Steve DeAngelo, Father of the Legal Cannabis Industry, Founder of Harborside Dispensary, Founder of the Last Prisoner Project

Resources:

SteveDeAngelo.com

@steve.deangelo

Last Prisoner Project

Norml Cannabis Advocacy Group

Memorable Quotes:

“Every governor in the United States of America has the power to release cannabis prisoners with the stroke of a pen. And we believe that, especially in states where voters have voted to legalize cannabis, that every governor should do so.” (12:49, Steve)

“I think that mobilizing people to defend their right to be able to grow cannabis in their own homes is pretty achievable.” (31:2, Steve)

“I believe that cannabis is more than just another product. There's no other product that teaches us lessons and that gives us a common value system.” (35:55, Steve)

“When you look at the cannabis plant across the breadth of human history, what you find is that every single human culture on this planet has adopted and used this planet successfully almost without exception.” (43:13, Steve)

“When you look at the total range of substances that are out there, there's no question that cannabis should not be illegal. It should not be restricted. In fact, cannabis use should be celebrated and promoted because it gives social benefits rather than harms.” (50:48, Steve)

“My belief is that if more people around the world consume cannabis, that we're going to end up living in a better world.” (58:37, Steve)

10: How did Colorado Build one of the Best Public Defense Systems? w/Doug Wilson

23 februari 2022 | 72 min

Colorado’s Doug Wilson has worked in the public defense system for over 40 years, so to say he holds a boatload of knowledge is an understatement!

Colorado has one of the best models of public defense and Doug is one of the people responsible for that success.

In this episode, Doug explains how he worked with the Colorado legislature to create a system built on independence and increase their budget by over 40 million dollars.

You’ll also hear about Colorado’s weaknesses—poor determination standards, court fees, and a lack of community outreach.

However, Wilson continues to advocate for an improved public defense system in Colorado.

In a world where not everybody gets access to representation and public defenders are overworked and underpaid, Doug Wilson is tenaciously working to change that.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Why Colorado’s public defense system so well and how Doug laid that foundation [4:05]
Public defense is a part of public safety [12:35]
Defining recidivism [13:58]
Doug and I dive deep into The Colorado Project, a recent workload analysis [28:16]
Doug breaks down Colorado’s determination standards [32:09]
Colorado’s struggle to provide adequate mental health services [50:30]
The negative impacts of horizontal representation [1:04:06]

Guests:

Doug Wilson, Chief Public Defender of Aurora Municipal Defender Office and former Chief Public Defender of The Colorado Office of the State Public Defender

Resources:

NLADA Aurora Public Defender Assessment

ACLU Report on Colorado Municipal Courts

Office of the State Public Defender of Colorado

Aurora Office of the Public Defender

Do You Qualify for a Public Defender in Colorado?

Colorado Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

“Indigent clients must be given the same constitutionally effect and officiant counsel as folks who can afford to pay for their attorney. That’s huge. You don’t see that level of independence or those mandates in very many systems around the country.” (6:38, Doug)

“We're part of the public safety discussion as well, because for every person that we can keep out of the system or keep from coming back into the system, by our intervention or our representation, or our alternative sentencing plan… that protects the public.” (12:45. Doug)

“50% of the bill of rights is there to protect the individual against the government.” (22:00, Doug)

“So for my listeners, indigent does not mean just the homeless person on the side of the road with two pennies to rub together. It is the family next door struggling with medical debt, it is the family across the street who just got into a fender bender, it is the guy at work who just got laid off to no fault of his own. It is every ordinary people who will face the brunt of the legal system without an attorney.” (38:07, Hunter)

“There are only five dedicated, municipal structured public defender offices in the country. Think about that.” (49:59, Doug)

“When a person's livelihood is dependent upon them not realizing they're doing something bad, they will very rarely realize they're doing something bad.” (46:34, Hunter)

09: What Can Cannabis Reform Teach us About Criminal Justice Reform with Christian Sederberg

16 februari 2022 | 60 min

Marijuana legalization is a hotly debated subject, so it’s no wonder there’s so much misinformation surrounding it.

Today’s guest, Christian Sederberg, is here to teach you the truth.

Christian is a founding partner at Vincente Sederberg LLP, a national law firm that tackles drug reform.

This week, he will walk you through the complicated subject of marijuana legalization, from lobbying efforts to local advocacy.

He’ll teach you the misconceptions around the marijuana industry and by the time you’re done listening, you’ll be able to form your own informed opinion.

Key Topics and Takeaways:

What Christian’s law firm does [4:28]
The policy side of Marijuana legalization [6:19]
Christian’s work in the mental health arena [20:45]
Health equity in the marijuana industry [29:16]
Where we should allocate tax dollars [33:16]
Marijuana crimes in legal states [41:36]
Why it’s hard to start a small business in the marijuana industry [47:11]
Christian’s long-term goals for marijuana policy [52:45]

Guest:

Christian Sederberg, Founding Partner at Vicente Sederberg LLP

Resources:

Vicente Sederberg Law Firm Bio

Marijuana Policy Project

Multipledisplenary Association for Psychedelic Studies

Headcount Voter Registration

To reach out to Christian: [email protected]

Memorable Quotes:

“When you move to actually treating addiction, you have lower rates of recidivism, your jails have less issues, and you have more resources that could be allocated to what people would consider more serious (quote-unquote) crimes.” (16:34, Hunter)

“Their argument was if we create a tax system that relies upon mental health, would rely upon these tax dollars to have these programs, then we'll never be able to get to our ultimate goal of banning these products.” (23:28, Christian)

“This country is shifting its frame that there can be responsible marijuana users. They’re not all potheads.” (34:06, Christian)

“We think we know what people need instead of engaging with them and asking, and actually having them tell us what they need.” (40:02, Christian)

“We're talking about the fundamental problem with American law enforcement, in my opinion, which is that we still have a lot of work to do on how we treat the poorest communities.” (42:46, Christian)

“We need to fundamentally shift our mindset, to look at all of these issues as public health issues and individual health issues, not as criminal justice issues.” (53:17, Christian)

08: Why Did Indiana's Public Defense System Fail? w/Larry Landis

9 februari 2022 | 63 min

When it comes to public defense, Larry Landis is a legend.

As the former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council, Larry has been in public defense since the 1970s and has worked with some of the biggest names in the industry.

As the architect of the current Indiana indigent defense system, he explains how the reimbursement model Indiana runs on came to be and how it affects people trapped in the legal system.

Because Larry has been in this industry for so long, you’ll get a unique behind-the-scenes view of the Indiana indigent defense system that you won’t get anywhere else!

Key Topics and Takeaways:

Larry’s background + an overview of his impressive career
The evolution of public defense infrastructure in Indiana
Larry’s past legislative work to improve Indiana public defense
When the speediness of a trial gets in the way of a fair one
Why misdemeanors in Indiana are not reimbursed
The vilification of public defenders
Winning back communities that have lost faith in public defenders
How we can encourage law students to see public defense as a legitimate career opportunity

Guest:

Larry Landis, Former Head of the Indiana Public Defender Council

Resources:

Sixth Amendment Center Report Indiana

2017 Task Force on Indiana Indigent Defense

2020 American Bar Association Workload Study

Memorable Quotes:

“There’s too many cases trying to fit through a small funnel.” (6:40, Larry)

“We have tried numerous times to increase reimbursement for misdemeanors, but I’ve never been successful.” (12:25, Larry)

“Lawyers are no different than most people, they can be desensitized and numbed by the fact that they’re not providing effective representation. My position is they need to be much stronger at advocating and challenging the system and refusing to be enablers” (21:01, Larry)

“The adversarial system is designed for once that accusation is lodged, game on in terms of that, that train is rolling down the tracks. And if you don’t have someone to slow it down, you’re going to prison.” (38:52, Larry)

“There’s gotta be consequences right now, there’s virtually none. So the lawyers can get away with curing corners, counties can underfund it, and there’s no consequence.” (49:52, Larry)

“We have this idea that people who require indigent defense are the worst of the worst of society. When in reality, the vast majority of them are low-level offenders who given enough opportunity, given the resources and not just discarded from society can again be productive members.” (57:04, Hunter)

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