The 8020 Drummer Podcast

It’s fitting that two weeks after hearing from Chris Turner, a man with one of the most whimsical, intuitive approaches to drums I’ve ever encountered, we encounter one Stan Bicknell, who’s built a brand around a mindful, deliberate, disciplined approach to the drums, and to architecting a life around it.

Stan wowed audiences with his appearance on Drumeo 5 years ago. Around this time, his touring career was taking off. But after the birth of his child, Stan made the decision to put his life front-and-center, move back to his native New Zealand, and design a role for drums, drum practice, drum teaching, and drum performance, that served his life goals.

Stan’s story resonated with me, because I made a similar decision around a decade ago, when I decided to start the 8020 channel. (I should say, I wasn’t turning down touring opportunities.) Speaking to Stan was a great “meeting of the minds”, because we’ve read many of the same books, and thought along the same lines.

It’s just that he’s doing practically all of it better than I am.

Which inspires an adage - “find the person who’s doing what you want to do better than you are, and draw inspiration from them.”

Stan is like the Qui-Gon Jinn of the drums, with his disciplined practice routines, mindfulness, goal-setting, and integration between drums and life. And it shows in his playing. Stan is almost 100% self-taught, which is to say he emulated his drum heroes like Weckl and Vinnie largely without teachers as intermediaries, and while he wouldn’t recommend that for everybody, all that extra work left him with some revised first-principles.

He also coaches drummers in not-only the instrument, but in life-satisfaction, and, as the episode title says, building a life around the drums.

I hope you’ll find this discussion as fascinating as I did.

Chapters

0:00 - setting a goal without assuming you're entitled to the results 6:44 - finding humility by removing gatekeepers 12:05 - the paradox of putting in the time without feeling locked in 17:15 - small world - Richie Martinez shout-outs 20:54 - why routines are necessary for improvement 24:44 - does it ever get any easier? 29:58 - inside Stan's system for improvisation 38:10 - spending a lot of time practicing something abstract 43:49 - identity diversity and being a "whole drummer"

Chris Turner is kind of the undisputed modern “double kick king”. Which, if that was all he was, might be of less interest to my audience. Luckily he’s also one of the most musical and creative drummers, and one of the most interesting and inspiring humans I’ve met recently.

One of the underrated benefits of getting to speak to great drummers is seeing the variety of different ways they’ve achieved, well, greatness. And you learn there are really very different archetypes, from the “acerbic everyman”, to the “systems and discipline person”, to the “rocket-fueled motivation machine”. (The last might describe Isac Jamba and Richie Martinez, among others.)

Chris Turner has the seemingly-bottomless-pit-of-motivation that some of the other guests have, but it’s combined with an easy-going, “come-what-may” kind of whimsy. He literally says he structures his life to avoid doing anything he doesn’t want to do in a given day. If you’re wondering about the obvious paradox between that approach and the discipline and longevity required to reach his level on drums, I was wondering the same thing, and his answer mildly floored me.

Chris says for his entire life, he’s strung together a series of independent days of falling deeply in love with the drums. When I asked him if he’s seen 50 First Dates, the Adam Sandler/Drew Barrymore rom com, he agreed “it’s like that.”

I was rather pleased that in this hour-long conversation with the world’s foremost double-kick player, we only broached double kick twice: once as an aside as Chris described his relationship with teaching, and a second time when I say I’m “not going to ask him about that.”

Instead we talk about motivation, psychology, finding a relationship with what you love, and his newest object-of-focus, YouTube.

Chris has an energy I think you’ll find infectious, and I know you’ll enjoy this convo regardless of the genre you’re interested in.

Chapters

0:16 - Chris' unique approach to motivation 6:42 - the "50 First Dates" approach to drums/Chris following his talent 10:42 - finding motivation from adversity 15:30 - Alex Honnold 20:09 - ok, but how does he motivate students? 25:14 - the definition of a "career"? 28:31 - what's the creative direction that's firing up Chris the most 33:33 - how did he come out of the gate with such high quality on YouTube 36:55 - Chris' favorite YouTube inspirations

Throughout the years, I’ve had a running mental catalogue on the go-to videos for certain subjects. Jazz swing, building a solo on the drums, tuning, timing, etc. And when I look back, in a surprising number of categories, the “best resource” comes from Rob “Beatdown” Brown.

Rob was among the “OGs” on Drumeo, with a great video about Stewart Copeland, and consistently drops authentic takes on his channel. That’s why I’ve been meaning to have a conversation with Rob for some time.

I finally caught up with him in early August, and opened the conversation with a question that’s been on my mind a bunch: What does he make of this situation where everybody practices chops, but nobody’s “allowed” to use them? And has that created a situation in which they’re not taught very well. Rob didn’t hold back on that subject, and was equally candid in speaking about the importance of real-world playing experience for the “internet generation”.

We veered a bit into the nature/nurture debate as well, speaking about whether “feel” can be taught - my hobby horse is the crowd that seems to think that, even for people with the capacity for good feel, there’s no recourse except to “feel it”. Rob was a bit more open minded to the idea that some people have a better innate capacity.

Finally, we spoke about YouTube as a mature medium, and the future of careers in drumming.

If you want some unfiltered wisdom from one of the OGs, I know you’ll enjoy this interview!

Chapters

0:00 - how does Rob feel about groove vs chops 10:61 - who are "hot" drummers who play clean but not "showoffy" 16:41 - did it take Rob a lot of effort to learn to "flow"? 23:31 - how important is real-world experience for drummers? 27:00 - does Rob have take-aways from his gig experience? 31:29 - what has Rob learned about his audience that's surprised him? 36:15 - is "just feel it" inadequate advice? 41:07 - is feel teachable, or are some people just born with it? 49:10 - what career advice would Rob give to a young graduate?

Ofri Nehemaya is barely in his ‘30s, but has already played and toured with Shai Maestro, Aaron Goldberg, Avishai (Bass) Cohen (the same drum chair where Mark Guiliana got his first big break), and Gilad Hekselman. He’s also no stranger to bandleading, releasing a viral, self-produced, straight-to-YouTube single called Just Sayin at age…I think it was 19;)

Ofri has been on my radar since then, and I was excited to ask him about how he practices, how he channels flow, how he approaches moving to a new scene and “fitting in”, and more.

You’ll see in the opening minutes I’m trying to pull some practice details out of him, and he just wants to talk about flow state and making music, so we go in that direction.

(I still suspect he has some juicy shed secrets. Perhaps we’ll explore those in a Part Two.)

Chapters

0:00 - what has Ofri been practicing lately? 4:10 - applying practice to music 10:15 - how he practiced playing in flow 15:33 - why we get nervous to perform 19:15 - lessons Ofri has learned from musical greats 27:05 - Ofri's advice on plugging into a scene 33:15 - approaching people with authenticity 36:51 - the story behind Ofri's most famous song

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Two years ago, I did a virtual drum shed with former podcast guest Raghav Mehrotra, the always-entertaining David Cola, and this week’s guest, Josh Crawford.

Josh, who rose to fame doing reaction videos to jaw-dropping drummers, is himself an elite player, and in this conversation I wanted to hear his opinions on both sides: becoming the player he is, and also influencer lyfe.

Josh is one of the most efficient players I’ve seen - he plays the most intricate stuff while expending a level of energy that looks more like he’s reading a newspaper. We get into some detail as I try to pick his brain about sticking and his approach to playing around the drums in general.

We also discuss the ever-present cold war of chops vs pocket, a subject on which Josh has dropped many-a-humorous-instagram voiceover - whether it’s Nick Canon footage from Drumline or Russell Croww and Denzel Washington - of famous movie characters “arguing” about pocket vs chops. When I pressed him on the subject, Josh had an unexpected take.

And of course we discuss the genesis of his internet fame, whether it was planned or serendipitous, and what he reckons he’d be doing if he hadn’t blown up on YouTube.

Joshua is both funny and insightful, which is why I have no double you’ll enjoy this little chat.

Chapters

0:00 - how does josh think of pocket vs chops? 5:00 - the best way to work on subdivision/placement 6:38 - how is josh so efficient? 10:54 - the Matrix/early influences 15:10 - what are the things josh has *passed* on learning for now 18:55 - estepario 21:33 - shed stories and the utility of sheds 27:58 - red light training 29:50 - how josh got started on youtube 33:55 - josh's non-drum youtube influences

When Gordy Knudtson was gigging in the late 70s, he was using almost exclusively traditional grip, and suffered an injury he says caused doctors to doubt he’d be able to continue playing.

Desperate to “work around” his tension, Gordy switched to matched and did one of the great deep-dives on hand technique. You could say he “John Dahaner’ed” drumstick mechanics, but it’s more accurate to say John “Gordy’d” jiujitsu.

One of the points I bring up with Gordy is that just as before and after Danaher, plenty of practitioners embodied solid mechanics, if you watch the hands of any of myriad great drummers, from Joe Morello to Philly Joe, to Tony Williams, to maybe Tony’s most famous fan, Vinnie Colaiuta, to modern technicians like Dana Hawkins, it’s clear there’s no shortage of drummers putting mechanical principles into practice.

But it’s probably also true that Gordy has extended the understanding of what’s actually happening when these greats play more than anyone at least since Murray Spivack, and, just like Danaher, made it more efficient for beginners to learn.

As you’ll see, Gordy also gives me something of a “free lesson”, showing how I could extend on my technique. Video of my thoughts and experiments on this in the pipeline for sure. There’s been much chat around this on calls with my coaching students.

Chapters

0:10 - unintended back story 1:49 - my background with Gordy 3:10 - does Gordy think the big dynamic variation in his gigs contributed to his technique 5:57 - is there a value to playing gigs that stretch your dynamic range? 11:21 - weird gigs in our pasts 13:42 - Gordy continues outlining the origins of his approach 22:11 - why every double stroke is by definition open-close 33:56 - the paradox of many great practitioners but few codifiers 45:05 - Gordy's assessment of *my* interpretation of his technique

I had a suspicion Benny Greb would be an interesting and thought-provoking conversation partner, and I wasn’t wrong.

I was interested to compare notes with the master-clinician on a number of things that have been top-of-mind, like nature/nurture, the paradox of the subjectivity of - but requirement for skill in - art, gap-click, and overrated drum advice.

Benny surprised me at turns, and confirmed my suspicions at others.

One of his most-interesting insights, in my opinion, was that he wants to be an entertainer/craftsperson, not just an “artist”.

We also managed to touch on Pablo Picaso, Neitzsche, Vinnie’s Attack of The 20lb Pizza (it’s 20 pounds, I know - I misspoke and under-weighted the pizza during the interview), and why Benny maybe disagrees with me on independence as a concept.

Chapters

0:00 - how can you tell if you're meant to play the drums 2:33 - did the drums feel natural to Benny when he first started? 5:35 - on being an entertainer 9:53 - if art is subjective what are we getting better at when we practice? 13:57 - was there a "goodness threshold" for Benny? 16:10 - biggest progress blockers Benny sees in drummers? 20:10 - are there any sacred cows in drum education that Benny disagrees with? 23:17 - "applying rudiments to the kit" 25:17 - Benny's recipe for learning improv 31:13 - JP's story, and why Benny loves teaching 35:45 - is there a place for competition in music? 41:02 - Vinnie, and filling other drummers' shoes

TaRon Lockett, who was Prince’ last drummer, who cut his teeth with Erykah Badu, and who was a key member of a scene that spawned Robert “Sput” Searight, Cleon Edwards and Mike Mitchell among others…

…showed up to our interview in character as his own life coach.

And from that point I knew this wasn’t going to be an “average” podcast episode.

It’s perfectly in-keeping with TaRon’s entire approach to music and creativity, though. There’s the dedication to “the bit”, evidenced by TaRon’s philosophy to dedicate himself 100% to assuming the character necessary to perform at his best for any gig he’s agreed to.

There’s the fearlessness that helped TaRon “not look back” when he left a college degree program to pursue music full-time after getting some high-profile gigs.

There’s the respect for age-old wisdom and the hard-won lessons of playing in church and learning by “respectful hard knocks”, and the dead seriousness of one’s dedication to their art.

Then there’s the duality itself, between irreverence, rebelliousness, and independence on one hand, and respect for the tradition and the aforementioned willingness to conform to perform his best on the gig.

In any case, if you’re patient, there are lessons, both humorous and serious to be gleaned both from TaRon-as-his-life-coach, and Taron-as-himself.

I hope you enjoy this fascinating the surprising conversation with one of the most underrated drummers around.

(And if you want to check out TaRon more, I recommend his instagram, starting with this clip.)

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Chapters

0:45 - how did TaRon develop his unique voice  2:30 - early teachers and musical influences  4:51 - how much was talent and how much was hard work 7:09 - memorable hard knocks lessons  9:59 - how much time should drummers allot to technique vs music  16:07 - being a musical chameleon  17:33 - the limits of hard knocks  24:09 - advice for someone who wonders if they have what it takes  28:15 - what drew TaRon to LA 33:54 - how has his practice changed over the years 36:18 - the origins of the "floor tom thingy" 40:41 - his relationship with the practice pad 42:50 - biggest takeaway from playing with Erykah Badu 45:08 - biggest takeaway from playing with Prince

Today we have an interview I’m very excited about.

One of the forefathers of jazz drum instruction - though as you’ll hear he doesn’t like the taxonomy, preferring to say he’s an “improvisation teacher”.

The biggest surprise for me upon speaking to Ed is that he’s an iconoclast. His energy is pure punk-rock, and he has no time for the idea of “handedness” on the drums, nor the “walling off” of jazz from other forms of improvisation.

Ed and I chat about hierarchies in music, how Denton, TX became a music powerhouse away from either of the coasts, teaching psychology, the value of honesty in music, and more.

Want to get the podcast early every week? Just click the link associated with this eposide and enter your email!

Chapters

0:00 - how did the University of North Texas become such a music powerhouse 5:30 - how Ed balances "going deep into the roots" with giving a fast overview 9:00 - why does Ed like Warren "Baby" Dodds so much 15:00 - the origin of Ed's brush approach 19:31 - why Ed doesn't believe in "handedness" 20:59 - how to help a student find their voice 28:17 - how to tell if you don't have it yet or you'll never have it 34:00 - why Ed finds it important to incept students with a work ethic 41:10 - gentle ways to teach touch lessons 51:40 - why Ed doesn't like the label "jazz teacher"

Today’s podcast guest first caught my attention with his clean, slamming Instagram clips. Picture closing your eyes and hearing a mix of Clyde Stubblefield, Bonham, and Nate Smith, then opening them and seeing a skinny teenager with a big mop of black hair and an infectious smile, and thinking “this guy is playing this”?

To the degree we use the word “prodigy”, Raghav Mehrotra is that. Someone who exhibits a degree of artistic maturity we usually don’t expect until many years later, even though he’s barely in college. (Studying economics at Harvard, btw.)

Raghav played drums and contributed vocals in the Broadway musical School of Rock at age 15.

He’s sat in with Seth Meyers’ Late Night band several times.

And now he’s behind the drum chair for Jordan Rakei’s latest album, The Loop.

Naturally, I was curious about how he developed such maturity at such a young age. In this conversation we touch early teachers, practice routines, figuring out Instagram, what it’s like to sit in with the Late Night Band, advice he’d give to up-and-coming drummers, and more.

Want to get the podcast early every week? Just click the link in the description and tell us where to send it.

Chapters

0:00 - what were Raghav's biggest influences 3:50 - why does he think he got so mature at so early an age 9:00 - who was his earliest teacher? 13:25 - how did he get on Instagram? 15:04 - should drummers be less afraid to put themselves out there? 18:33 - how did he internalize the key details so early 23:18 - how to decide when to "move on" 26:50 - Raghav's zoom-lecture practice strategy/how has his practice routine changed 31:00 - what advice would he give his younger self 34:54 - biggest advice he'd give to the median instagram drummer 37:04 - biggest surprise sitting in with the Late Night band

If you’ve watched more than zero of my videos, you’ll know that there’s a kick drum technique that I endorse pretty unequivocally - simple heel up.

Sure, it takes some dialing-in, but my general feeling is it’s the most versatile/least “distance-sensitive” technique for avoiding tension at multiple speeds and dynamic ranges.

But what if I was wrong.

Today’s interview subject has the opposite take: whereas I switched to “heel up” after several frustrating years trying to coax more volume, power, and speed out of my legacy “heel down” technique, he switched to heel down, when he found heel-up made soft dynamics and playing off the head more difficult.

I’m speaking of YouTube OG Tim Metz.

In our extended interview, which you can view below, we get into his background co-teaching with Mike Johnston in Sacramento, gig scenes in general, his approach to teaching, and the like, but for purposes of the YouTube video, we went head-to-head to debate the merits of the two techniques.

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If you haven’t heard of Arch Echo’s Richie Martinez, get ready for a rabbit hole.

(Richie’s Instagram)

Richie is one of the most electrifying young drummers around.

While he calls the genre of his band “progressive metal”, his playing encompasses a type of "cross-genre” fluency not many drummers have, but it’s exiting when you see it.

Equally comfortable in funk, fusion, or prog settings, Martinez brings energy, enthusiasm, and blistering chops to anything he plays.

Martinez’ background is an unconventional one - growing up in Houston, he was mostly self-taught until high school. That gave Richie a unique perspective on teaching and learning drums. What’s more, he’s made playing “hard” a science, and coaches many-a-touring-drummer on how to play forcefully without injuring themselves or burning out.

And while Richie responded to the question “is there a reason to play forcefully when you can just let the mics do the work” with “yea - do you want to be a LOSER?” He equally obsessed with the mechanics of the low end of the dynamic range, and frequently asks students to play softly on table tops. And while he’s a jokester, he shows an unironic love for the instrument and his students.

If you’ve ever wondered about the mechanics of playing drums hard without injury, why some of the “conventional advice” doesn’t always work, or just what a super disciplined player is like to spend time with, I know you’ll love this conversation with Riche.

Want to play drums injury-free into your 70s and beyond?

I sure do.

Today’s video guest, Brandon Green, was coaching elite athletes when a high school friend’s struggle with injury inspired him to utilize his skills to help drummers. Since then, Brandon founded the Drum Mechanics YouTube and Instagram channels, where he breaks down the setup and movement of some of your favorite drummers, and gives tons of free advice to help all drummers improve our setup and movement.

I wasn’t an uninterested party. Since becoming a “tall guy” I’ve always struggled with “Ichabod Crane Posture”, and over the past couple of years I’ve been experimenting with setup mental cues, and exercises to help me move better.

Brandon weighs in on the posture conundrum from both philosophical and practical angles.

Then I ask him to help resolve something I’ve always had confusion about: rack tom angle. And the answer surprised me. (But I’m making a change.)

Andy Prado is a drummer’s drummer.

Talk to practically anyone you’ve heard of about who their favorite drummers are, and Andy is likely to be in that sentence.

He’s one of a small list of drummers you could call “elite choppers” - a list that includes people like Ron Bruner, Mike Mitchell, and not too many others.

As such he’s in both an enviable, and an unenviable position. And you better believe we dig into the multi-edged sword of “chops”. (It’s way harder than you think to get them, you don’t have anything to “hide behind” like groove drummers, and when you reach the top of your profession everybody either wants to be you, hates you, or both.)

Andy touches a bit on the unhuman work ethic necessary to reach the level he’s reached. We also get into:

• Huey Lewis and The News - based or cringe

• Andy’s weekly routine and current projects

• The importance of being authentic

• Whether drummers’ outward personalities match their music

• How Andy is also an elite groove player

• and much more

I know you’ll enjoy this light-hearted convo with one of the LA OGs, the GOAT, as Forrest Rice calls him.

Andy's Links

Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/andypradojr/ YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@andypradojr6186 Coevality Band - https://www.instagram.com/coevalityband/ The Golden Age by Wires - https://wirestheband.bandcamp.com/album/the-golden-age Scarypoolparty - Sun Moon Earth - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvO39Y2692M

Whether or not you’ve heard the name Arthur Hnatek, you’ve probably heard the drummer.

If you love Tigran Hamasyan, by definition you love Arthur Hnatek.

Since the Mockroot album, Arthur has been creating unique drum parts for Tigran, and weaving himself deeply into the fabric of the band, and the albums.

As my interests currently sit at the intersection of jazz and prog rock, I was extremely interested in who Arthur’s influences were, and how he’s developed his voice.

We start out having the usual conversation about developing a music voice, but quickly segue into “musical family trees” - i.e. is Keith Carlock the “grandfather”, and Mark G and Nate wood the “fathers” - something I’m gratified that Arthur likewise found fun.

Maybe most fascinating, Arthur didn’t ever consciously play prog rock, but rather absorbed it via osmisis.

Insights like, and something surprising about Tigran’s input into drum parts, abound in this interview. Know you’ll enjoy.

When I was first getting started on YouTube, there were only a few drummers doing the same thing. One, of course was podcast guest Mike Johnston. Another was Brandon Scott.

Brandon brought great playing, low-key humor, and humility to his videos, and immediately captured attention.

Over the years, as my production quality stagnated, Brandon kept leveling his up, becoming a student of great filmmaking in general, and youtube videography in particular. Recently his video chops caught the attention of Drumeo, who hired him to make a few one-off video ads. That gig turned into a full-time position as a Drumeo videographer, as part of which Brandon regularly commutes to Vancouver and shoots spots for artists like El Estepario Siberiano.

I knew I wanted to get Brandon on a call to help me with my video production, and he graciously agreed. We also rap about Brandon’s drum journey, and how/why he low-key sounds so good. (I say “low key” because his playing is never the focus of his videos; he just sounds great.)

If you have any interest in YouTube or video production, this episode is for you!

Chapters

1:20 - how Brandon got interested in video production 4:34 - Brandon's life story that's led him to be working with Drumeo 9:36 - why was Brandon *early* to killer video 13:43 - oh - Brandon is also a killer player - how did he get good 21:20 - hand speed isn't the limiting factor 22:51 - video production basics 27:48 - the number one advice Brandon would give ME 29:40 - the camera explained 35:20 - camera placement and lights - dos and don'ts 39:10 - getting the most out of a cheap camera

One of my proudest “hipster” achievements was being an early adopter on Ari Hoenig. Long story short, I arrived in New York 3 months before the start of my first school year in grad school, and spent the summer checking out live music with other students who’d stayed around the for summer.

One of those things we checked out was Ari. And as such, I was able to share the discovery with my classmates when they arrived in the fall.

Who was this guy who looked like he was outrunning demons when he played, who had a crispness and simplicity to his playing, and yet who was pushing the boundaries on so many things. For those in the know, Ari was already making waves with Kenny Werner by the time I caught him with the Jean Michel Pilc trio.

But as more and more jazz students cottoned to him, he quickly became the unofficial mayor of what I’d call New York Village Jazz. (As distinct from uptown and downtown jazz.) And his own groups birthed at least a few stellar careers, among them that of Gilad Hekselman.

It had been years since Ari and I had spoken - I’d “fanboyed” to him a number of times after gigs - so it was great to revisit one of the most influential drummers when I was in school and the years afterward.

In this interview, Ari and I speak about the origins of his unorthodox style, forging a path as an individual artist, how to deal with the critical voice and self-doubt while developing as an artist, his approach to practicing improvisation and more.

I guarantee you’ll enjoy this one.

I just learned that being a “youtuber” is the number one career goal of elementary school children. If I could give them one tip it’s “study accounting unless you’re ready for a lot of hustle and at least a few sleepless nights.”

But one of the things that makes my “job” worth it is when I get to embark on learning a genre that’s not familiar to me as a science experiment, and when I get to speak directly to one of the leading artists of the genre for advice.

Such was the situation when Periphery’s Matt Halpern, one of the most storied prog rock drummers of the past decade, agreed to donate some of his time to sit down and answer my questions. Matt joined Periphery in 2010, and since then it’s been a fairytale whirlwind of records and tours.

Despite his busy tour schedule, Matt takes extra time to conduct group masterclasses in tour locations as often as he can, and is extremely passionate about teaching.

It was this combo of “cutting edge practitioner” and skilled communicator I couldn’t pass up, so that’s why I asked Matt to teach me - in at least a limited capacity. Part of the pretext for the interview was for Matt to listen to a recording I did of Periphery’s most recent - and most challenging - songs, and give me feedback and advice.

And he did not disappoint.

From practice psychology, to approaching songs, to body mechanics, to ice baths, he was comprehensive. And I tried to incorporate as much as I could into my final performance of the song.

But we also spoke about Matt’s unique approach to playing…well…”mathy” music, in a way that’s human and soulful, and evocative of a previous generation of drummers like Bonham. Then we spoke about teaching in general, and the healing power of jiujitsu.

I know prog rock isn’t at the top of the playlist for a big portion of my audience, but I highly encourage you to check out this interview even if Periphery isn’t your cup of tea, because Matt’s insights extend beyond any genre.

Know you’ll enjoy this one!

Chapters

3:48 - how does Matt approach learning complex prog songs 13:19 - is learning Dracul Gras in a short time a bad idea? 17:56 - the origin of Matt's old-school groove approach 22:00 - did Matt have to work hard to learn groove? 27:19 - how to play loud efficiently 42:00 - why is Matt so passionate about teaching 48:16 - how do you know if you have what it takes to be great at drums

In this interview you’ll catch a lot of references.

That’s because Clarence was one of the most influential drummers on the early-2000s “jazz renaissance” that happened in New York, and on me.

No matter who the artist was that was drawing out New York jazz students on a Tuesday night, you can bet the drummer was Blade, Ari Hoenig, Dan Weiss, or Clarence. (And later Eric Harland and Marcus.)

And if you look up the personnel from practically any of the most influential bands of the era, you’ll see Clarence in the drum seat.

Two of my favorite examples:

Strange Liberation, which I mention in the interview (“slow down” part is at 6:52)

The Visitor (live version), which contains one of my favorite Clarence solos. (Solo begins at 5:20)

From these examples you’ll get an idea of the “tension” I mention in the interview between tighness/snappiness and looseness/irreverence, and you’ll hear Clarence’s “punk rock mixed with deep love for the tradition” style.

It took a couple of months before Clarence had a spare moment in his busy schedule, which includes commuting from Florida, where he lives with his family, to LA, where he’s on the faculty of USC, but it was worth the wait.

In this conversation, we speak a lot about teaching and learning, a subject of current fascination, given that I’m coaching a small group of 1:1 jazz students. I get Clarence’ philosophy on teaching improvisation, and the limitations of written material.

We also speak about “safe spaces” (not in the politically charged way), and the tension between helping students by holding them accountable, but wanting lessons to be an “oasis” in their week instead of inducing stress.

And of course I can’t waste the opportunity to ask Clarence about what it was like being part of a jazz renaissance, and how he feels that’s different from the current climate…

…not to mention the boundaries of the word “jazz”, and why people who were in the New York scene in the early 2000s define that word differently than “kids these days”.

If you can’t tell from my writing, this was one of my favorite interviews so far, and I know you’ll enjoy it too. If you dig the interview, please follow Clarence on instagram and give him a shout.

Chapters

1:13- Latest teaching gig at USC, and the value of motivated students 12:30 - the paradox of focus 18:10 - why I think Clarence was predisposed to do what he did 23:45 - is jazz dead? (hah!) 27:33 - the definitions of jazz 34:58 - bridging the gap between exercise and improvisation 42:54 - how Clarence practices time

In 2016, I had no business being welcomed into the West Coast drum family with open arms. I had a tiny YouTube channel, and didn’t even play all that well.

But that didn’t stop Forrest Rice from inviting me over to shed, and letting me hang with him and friends at that year’s NAMM convention.

Forrest first came to prominence after playing in grand finals for the Guitar Center Drumoff, may it rest in peace, in 2014. He’s played drums for Covet and Wolfy, and currently plays with saxophonist Ian Roller. But most importantly, he’s a deep thinker about the drums and music in general. 

In this conversation I ask Forrest about why he told me to learn the Tony Williams ride cymbal technique in 2016, the differences between jazz and math-rock, east-coast versus west-coast drum styles, “with the grain” versus “against the grain” practice, and more.

And he also tells a ten-minute story with a “behind the scenes” look at the Drum-Off, then joins me in a round of ridiculous speculation about how one might resurrect the Drum-Off, without many of the downsides.

I know you’ll enjoy this one.

Chapters

1:00 - Tony and energy management  4:15 - the double right thing  7:52 - with the grain va against the grain practice  12:27 - Forrest’s take on the critical voice 17:42 - Forrest’s latest thing at the Baked Potato 22:37 - east vs west coast drumming 28:41 - the best guitar center drum off story ever 47:46 - how we’d improve the drum off  52:50 - Forrest’s current projects 

Show notes 

Daniel Hayn - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmUTeaLU8SA Forrest’s Merry Little Christmas - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iyvl6DRy-c JD Beck and Buff Hello Kitty Beats - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANPbOxaRIO0 Naima Acuna - https://www.instagram.com/naimaacunaoficial/ Cole Riddle with Mike Mitchell - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDgyajeLmPU Maison Guidry GC Drum off 2008 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj7PcsposVw Quentin Ferb Milwaukee Gospel Chops video - https://youtu.be/TESIpvdd0VI?si=SyJKb-gn7Nb-JXcq Ian Roller with Forrest - https://www.instagram.com/p/CzHWJwZPC8G/ Another Ian with Forrest clip - https://www.instagram.com/p/Ct66ez9MsWC/ Wolfy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16AMH-axEk