Podd: Queer Movie Podcast

Wicked (2024) - Queer Oscars 2025

13 februari 2025 | 64 min

Queer (2024) - Queer Movie Review

25 januari 2025 | 54 min

Mulan Kicking Ass and the Full Cast of Buffy - Movies That Made Me Queer with Norma Night

5 januari 2025 | 46 min

Last ExMas (Lesbian Holiday Romance Movie Review)

19 december 2024 | 55 min

Star Wars Throuples & Lesbian Twilight B Plots - Queer Hot Takes with Isabel

6 december 2024 | 59 min

Emilia Pérez (Queer Musical Thriller?) Review

29 november 2024 | 68 min

Will and Harper (Queer Road Trip)

8 november 2024 | 66 min

Downton Abbey's Evil Gay Butler - Queer Hot Takes with Jess Durand

30 oktober 2024 | 59 min

Heartstopper Season Three Special (Queer TV)

10 oktober 2024 | 71 min

Brüno (2009) - Queer Mockumentary

26 september 2024 | 64 min

Our Flag Means Death and Downton Abbey - Queer TV Hot Takes with Aleema Omotoni

12 september 2024 | 43 min

I Saw The TV Glow (Queer 90s)

29 augusti 2024 | 57 min

Princess Diaries and Nanny McPhee - Movies That Made Me Queer with Ellen Jones

16 augusti 2024 | 48 min

Monkey Man (Queer Action)

2 augusti 2024 | 63 min

Bratz and Bronies - Movies That Made Me Queer with Tazmyn-Mei Gebbett

18 juli 2024 | 60 min

Challengers (The Threesome Tennis Movie) feat. Ty Turner

12 juli 2024 | 59 min

Strange Way of Life (Queer Pedro Pascal)

23 maj 2024 | 47 min

Drive-Away Dolls (Queer Crime Caper)

9 maj 2024 | 56 min

A**hole Lesbians and Brokeback Bottoms - Queer Movie Hot Takes with the Growing Pains Team

25 april 2024 | 44 min

Nimona (Queer Animation)

15 april 2024 | 54 min

My Own Private Idaho + Stand By Me - Movies That Made Me Queer with Trevor Anderson

28 mars 2024 | 50 min

Twilight & Wizard of Oz - Movies That Made Me Queer with Christen Randall

14 mars 2024 | 55 min

Rustin (Oscars 2024)

29 februari 2024 | 56 min

Saltburn (Queer Erotic Thriller)

8 februari 2024 | 57 min

The Best LGBTQ+ Movies of 2023: Yearly Round-up

24 januari 2024 | 50 min

Bottoms (Queer Iconic)

21 december 2023 | 62 min

Camp (Queer Teen Musical) with David Levitz

7 december 2023 | 67 min

Dicks! The Musical (Queer Musical) with David Puck

1 december 2023 | 62 min

Media that Made Me Queer with Jordan Harrod

10 november 2023 | 46 min

Bodies Bodies Bodies (Queer Halloween) with Novympia

26 oktober 2023 | 60 min

Games That Made Me Queer (with The English Simmer)

28 september 2023 | 58 min

Assassination Nation (Queer Social Commentary)

14 september 2023 | 63 min

Music That Made Me Queer (with Taylor Behnke aka itsradishtime)

31 augusti 2023 | 55 min

Heartstopper Season Two Special (Queer TV)

17 augusti 2023 | 47 min

The Last of Us (Queer Gaming)

3 augusti 2023 | 63 min

Movie That Made Me Queer with Becky Albertalli

20 juli 2023 | 64 min

Imagine Me and You (Queer British Rom-Com)

6 juli 2023 | 62 min

Hot Takes with Amanda The Jedi

22 juni 2023 | 56 min

Strange World (Queer Disney)

8 juni 2023 | 61 min

Movie That Made Me Queer with Mia Mulder

25 maj 2023 | 66 min

To Wong Foo (Queer Drag)

11 maj 2023 | 63 min

Movie That Made Me Queer with Erik J. Brown

27 april 2023 | 56 min

The Whale (Queer Comeback)

13 april 2023 | 61 min

Hot Takes with Eleanor Medhurt (Dressing Dykes)

30 mars 2023 | 53 min

Everything Everywhere All At Once (Queer Oscars)

9 mars 2023 | 67 min

Knock at the Cabin (Queer Chiller)

2 mars 2023 | 63 min

Movie That Made Me Queer with Princess Weekes

16 februari 2023 | 64 min

Tár (Queer Character Study)

2 februari 2023 | 61 min

Call Me By Your Name (Queer Auteur)

19 januari 2023 | 58 min

It was only a matter of time before we tackled Call Me By Your Name, one of the most influential, and subsequently controversial queer movies of the last decade.

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

JAZZA: Hello, everybody. Before we kick off this episode, just wanted to quickly thank the two patrons who are supporting us on our highest tier rainbow parent, Jennifer and Toby, you continue to be rather awesome. I also wanted to give a little bit of a content warning for today's episode we touch on. Amongst other things, grooming pedophilia, sexual assault and fetishized cannibalism. So some of our conversations get pretty heavy. If that ain't your thing, feel free to skip this one and come back for the next episode in a couple of weeks. Okay, for the rest of you. Enjoy.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—

ROWAN: —and worst—

JAZZA: —in LGBTQ plus cinema. One glorious moment a time. I thought your tone was quite pointed there, Rowan.

ROWAN: Listen not to spoil what I thought about this movie, but I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I'm Jazza John.

ROWAN: And each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode genre is—

ROWAN AND JAZZA: Queer.

JAZZA: Today—

ROWAN: That was Autuer for those who needed the translation.

JAZZA: Which is French for author. You're welcome. Today we're going to be talking about one of the most renowned and somewhat infamous. We'll talk about it queer movies of the past 10 years. Call Me By Your Name.

ROWAN: But before we fuck a peach, I guess. Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA: So the gayest thing I've done is for once has nothing to do with my sex life.

ROWAN: [shocked]

JAZZA: I know. I have been playing the role for the past three weeks of the model, queer family member who has just been sitting in the middle of all of the arguments and telling everybody to be emotionally intelligent and love each other again, it is a stereotype that the queers step into I guess.

ROWAN: Do the supporting role, the supporting character in the movie of like

JAZZA: Of straight—of straight relatives. Yes, exactly.

ROWAN: Amazing.

JAZZA: And that was just very much my life for the past few weeks. I love my family. I love them sincerely.

ROWAN: Yeah, keep—keep yeah, go—what's that you keep— keep saying it, and will believe.

JAZZA: I'm just letting the ellipses hang.

ROWAN: That's it?

JAZZA: Yeah. How about—how about you?

ROWAN: Um, so I went on a little writing retreat, and I wrote for like, a week with some friends and I wrote so much of my gay that little, little book that I'm writing. It was very fun, and very gay. I haven't actually read over any of the stuff I've written yet, so it might be bad, but I'm gonna pretend like it's fine.

JAZZA: I'm sure some of it is. And I'll tell you in a loving way, though.

ROWAN: Yeah, I—I there's a reason why I haven't sent it to you yet. Well, so I also—it's like a sci-fi. So I feel like maybe I'll end up calling a character Jazza just for like the fun vibes, the Sci Fi vibes.

JAZZA: Rowan, do you not know this? I—every one of our friends that has written a fiction book. I have done my utmost to make them name a character after me. So if our straight friends aren't going to name their children after me, then all of our queer friends are going to name one of the characters in their inevitable books after me. That's how I'm gonna become immortal.

ROWAN: Yeah, and what I might do is you know, maybe try and disguise it by just changing like one letter or something. So maybe the character would just be called Jizzie.

JAZZA: I knew— I knew you were so rude, so cliche.

ROWAN: Oh my gosh, but yeah, I'll definitely make it an extremely cool, cool character. And not some like lame old man.

JAZZA: Great. Love that for us. For me—

[theme]

JAZZA: As I mentioned before the break this film, though, celebrated has seen its fair share of controversies since its release. We are going to do our best before we dive into the plot to touch on them and provide—provide some well needed context, I think.

ROWAN: We will then be reviewing the plot as always, splitting the film into three acts, of course we always do. If somehow you've managed to not see this movie since it came out. You know, go and watch it before listening to rest of the episode, unless like me, you had zero plans of watching it until your podcast co-host like, physically wrestled you into it. In which case just what—just listen to this episode instead.

JAZZA: I think it a—I think it was—it was—it was just about time, you know. The first one back in the new year I felt like it was a good time.

ROWAN: I guess.

JAZZA: Exactly. So, without further ado, let's maybe read a book a bit, then listen to some fall asleep by the pond, and then maybe contemplate my own way before having sex with my childhood friend on a dusty mattress and review, Call Me By Your Name.

ROWAN: Wow.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so the first bit of context that we—I want to talk about is a contexes of something that's within the movie itself, which is the age gap, I'd say in inverted commas, romance. So this is kind of part of the controversy around the movie. I will confess that I have basically, the reason why I hadn't seen the film was because just the very concept of this really icks me out. And so I was I am particularly want to watch this happening on screen. And so I also haven't looked at a lot of like the discourse, commentary and stuff on it. So this is—what I'm about to say is some information from the film, and then my thoughts about it. So the information from the film is one of the characters Elio play by Timothy Chamalet,is 17. And the other character, Oliver played by Armie Hammer is 24. When they were playing those roles, Armie Hammer was a lot older than 24, he was in his 30s. But similarly, Timmy was 20/21, depending on reports, the age that he was when he filmed this varies, but he was wasn't a teenager. However, it is also I think, sort of, we need to point out that, in terms of how it looks, Timmy does look like a teenager, he looks like a boy. And Armie Hammer does look his 30 something years old. So there is the knowledge within the summary of this movie that one of them is 17, one of them is 24. And then there is the visuals that are presented in the movie, as well. And both of these things, I think probably have a—will have an impact on the people who are watching it and how they interpret the movie. And this is at the age gaps scene in queer movies is a thing. I don't think there's any denying that. At age gaps and queer relationships are also a thing. And so I think that on the one hand, you can say, well, age gaps in general in relationships happen, showing them on screen, it's just showing something that happens in reality. So gay movies, like Blue Is the Warmest Color etc, etc, have this as a trope. And it to such an extent that there are almost more lists of queer movies without age gap in like letterbox and recommendations and they are with, it seems like a lot of people are trying to escape from it. But I think the reason why this movie in particular has that controversy element to it, is the 17 year old element that one of them is like a minor. And although you—I'm sure could argue that technically, legally the age of consent do,do,do and for my understand it was 14 at the time in 1983 in Italy, that a lot of these age gaps that we talked about in other movies are between adults who have an age gap, who might be more than this, but they are two adults. And therefore I think a lot of people would say that there are some differences between the relationship and like the favor for example, between Emma Stone's character and uh—

JAZZA: Olivia Coleman.

ROWAN: —Olivia Coleman. Yeah.

JAZZA: My god.

ROWAN: Dear Lord. The memory issues really going—

JAZZA: Cancel her now.

ROWAN: Cancel me. Yeah, between Olivia Coleman and Emma Stone, for example, will probably be seen in a different way because of that. Because I think with age gaps, it's not just the arbitrary idea of like, those are just two numbers with numbers in between them, I think it is the idea of a difference in experience as well as age, that can heighten an age gap into an area that might feel predatory. And I think that that is especially interesting to discuss when we're talking about queer relationships uh in media, because predatory stereotypes are such a huge part of the kind of stereotypes around queer people, right? It's like, if you look at back, with section 28, or with Anita Bryant, the idea of like, queer people are inherently predatory and dangerous to have around children. And all this kind of stuff feels like it adds an extra layer of complication on to this kind of story. I would say that from my point of view within this film, and I know that the book is from Elio's point of view. And I think the movie also gives the story to us from the point of view of this teenager. And so I can understand there being an element of like, the music, it's very romantic, for example, because we're in this character's point of view. And from his point of view, it's like the most romantic thing to happen. And it's this like, clandestine relationship and he's—it's because his burgeoning sexuality and all this kind of stuff. And I also think that just because something is in a film, or in a book, it doesn't mean it's being endorsed necessarily by the author or the writers or the director. However, I do think that all of the marketing and a lot of the framing around this movie does want to paint it as this big romantic journey for this character and this big relationship. So that includes the music, that includes the marketing, that includes like the conversation with the understanding parent to kind of like lampshade the idea of like, hey, audience, you might think this is relationships a bit dodgy, but this parent, his own parent says it's fine. So actually, I think you're fine, it's fine. So yeah, I kind of came into this thinking, trying to look at it with an open mind, but kind of thinking like, at the very most it's going to—I'm going to just find it a bit icky. But I have to admit, when I was watching the movie, I like actively were seeing stuff that looked like grooming to me, or that had issues with consent on both sides. And so for me, it was like, less of just the age gap as a general concept and more of specifically, like a minor and an adult in a relationship in which it was very unhealthy, but was being portrayed as this like, sort of Romeo and Juliet, like secret beautiful love, like fleeting, one summer, you know, vibe that I didn't necessarily—didn't necessarily vibe with in that sort of way. I was seeing it more was like, oh, this is like everything this—this character is doing is—is clearly he is a child. And he's like cuddling with his parents. And he's like shaving his non existent mustache. And he's like, being really bratty. And then there's, like, this adult character who's very confident and very, like self assured and, and it just felt very strange to me. I don't know how you felt about that element of the film Jazza. But that was—we sort of assign ourselves to listen, I think we've mentioned this before, sort of elements of the context that we each want to dive into, and then the other one kind of probably presented to each other in the moment. So I don't know how you felt about this Jazza from your perspective.

JAZZA: Yeah, I remember, this was the second time that I have watched this movie. And I remember the first time having a very similar reaction to the one that you just did. So I was a little bit fed up with the like yet another large age gap representation. One where it was a like, Chalamet's character is very codified as kind of like a young child especially at the beginning of the movie. We've kind of like all of the things that he does, like his brattiness as well as like the—like the—the shaving the mustache, I think is kind of like one of the—the clear things of like this really segments his boyhood. The visuals as well I will go with you of Hammer and Chalamet, as the—I don't care what the says, this is a romantic movie.seeing those two as romantic leads, it is quite jarring with the way that they look because it looks like a fully grown man and a boy. That said, a lot of the—a lot of the background work that I did on thi, on Call Me By Your Name, span off of a really great video essay that Lola Sebastian did, which I will link in the show notes. And I will encourage anybody who really, really wants a thorough, thoughtful, nuanced, deep dive into this movie and its context. And the way that kind of like all of these, especially the controversies intersect, how the Internet has talked about them, I'd encourage you to go and watch that video essay. She was really, really good at articulating the way that this film seems very much to be. And I think one of the intentions of it, and you can see it in the way that a lot of the artistic shots and the way that it's filmed and the—the score as well, how this is meant to be an idealized version of a memory that Timothy, Timothy Chalamet. That Chalamet's character is having. I think when you read this as the memory that Chalamet has of this romance that he had, as he was growing up, I think that that contextualizes what I think it is in lots of different ways. I—I wouldn't go as far as saying that it looks like grooming because I think that Hammers character has a lot of vulnerabilities and in many ways seems a lot less, like even less experienced than Chal—than Chalamet's character in many—in many ways his innocence.

ROWAN: I don't think that, that precludes grooming, right? Because there's a load of stuff he does. Where it's like this is I think—I think as well if you're going to argue that it is a rose tinted, like version of the memory. You can also say hey, there isn't behaviors that he's exhibiting where he's like getting him alone and taking them on special trips, that only they get to go on. And then like all of this kind of stuff that's like textbook grooming, that then I could—I could just as easily see that being twisted to be like okay, so all of those things where he's like, no, we shouldn't, it will be too naughty of us. Like seen by him as this like, oh, you know, he was just—he was looking out for me. He—he said we could wait until I was 16. Like he said, we would wait until I was 16 kind of energy, that I think is a bit touche. I—I would argue that the reading of it being his memory holds way more weight, if they had kept the canon of the book, which is that it is a memory. The fact there's no like framing device used in the movie, I wouldn't necessarily feel comfortable giving you that generosity of like—

JAZZA: Sure. It's less obvious. Yeah.

ROWAN: There's no point is even having a ration at the beginning. Like a lot—even a line of him being like, it was like, so long ago, that hot summer in 1983. Like there's none of that. So I do think it's from his point of view—

JAZZA: Fair enough.

ROWAN: But I wouldn't necessarily say that the— that the movie feels like it's obviously from the point of view of someone grown up looking back, because there's no framing device that suggests that to me.

JAZZA: I do think I—I do think that that is there in the way that it is shot. And I do think that it's there. I do think it's there. But I will agree that it isn't obvious. And I think that the grooming stuff. Yeah, I think it—I think that there's no getting away from it. I think it is problematic. However, the second time that I watched this, and I—and like I said I had a lot of the same kind of hang ups that you had. However, the second time watching this movie through, I ended up really identifying with Chalamet's character in a way that I never did, the first time that I watched it, because I too, was a teenage gay, and I too had relationships with older men. And there's a lot of it and like, like you said in real life, queer relationships, larger age gaps are more common for a variety of reasons, not least, because there's fewer of us, not least because very often, we don't have the kind of guidance from elder figures in families or whatever that may be we turned to those who are queer and older in our communities, and sometimes that forms relationships—romantic relationships, but I saw a lot of kind of like the emotions of Chalamet's character, like reflected in the experience that I had of kind of like that. First, kind of like almost fearful, like, do you dive into this? That's the central question. Like, do you—like, do you act on these feelings? That's the central question of the movie.

ROWAN: See, I think that is the tricky thing about around the movie. It's like, there isn't—you can't say that this is some unrealistic, like weird thing that's been conjured from the mind of a—of the director, you know what I mean? Like—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —there is a lot of reality going on in here. And I think that it's—the very fact that like, both of us have a different interpretation of what's going on here isn't necessarily a film, I feel like has a particular thesis to it, where they literally say what they want you to think about this relationship and whether it's good or bad, or healthy or unhealthy or whatever. And I think you can read into it, and say, okay, well, this could be evidence of them, saying that it's meant to be some kind of epic romance, or this isn't an element of saying that it's unhealthy or whatever. But I think for me, it was just the experience of watching it was like, oh, this is just so like, I just have like a very visceral reaction to it. But in the same way, there will be people who will see themselves in these characters or like in this particular dynamic that will have an equally visceral reaction that's based on whatever emotions they have about their own experiences that run parallel to this as well.

JAZZA: And I think that it's a bi— it's a— it is a nuanced story, that we are allowed to have kind of like the—these different and kind of like complex emotions about. I do not think that it is necessarily a, a great romantic epic. I think in many ways, actually, this is more of a tragedy.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah.

JAZZA: Than it is a romance.

ROWAN: Oh 100%.

JAZZA: Especially with the way that it ends. But yeah, just so that we don't spend too much time talking about the age gap thing. I think this is a—a good point for me to bring in some of the—the other background—

ROWAN: The other background—

JAZZA: —of this.

ROWAN: —that's come about. Jazza, tell me what you were researching this week.

JAZZA: I read a really long Vanity Fair article about Armie Hammer, whose name is Armand.

ROWAN: Oohhh.

JAZZA: Did you know that?

ROWAN: No, I didn't.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: What a fun— wha—what a nice way of you stalling what you're about to talk about Jazza, allegedly.

JAZZA: And it's still a allegedly. So one of the big burdens that hangs around the neck of this movie, is the fact that Armie Hammer is one of the two leads at it. And Armie Hammer was one of the people who all maybe had a bit of a consequential pandemic, shall we say? So Armie Hammer during the pandemic, there were lots of allegations against him. Those have ended up, it's important to say not being pursued in court. But then there were lots of leaked messages from women who had dated Armie Hammer, where it seemed that he was at least role playing. And there were alleged conversations, face to face that he had about this around cannibalism. Now, to be clear, the—the kink of cannibalism does not mean that Armie Hammer is a cannibal.

ROWAN: We're not saying Armie Hammer has eaten anybody, just to make it clear.

JAZZA: We're just to— just to make it clear. So since the allegations of sexual abuse and the revelations of his alleged kink around cannibalism came out, Armie has had a rough couple of years and has been—was dropped from his agency and dropped from a number of projects, even being completely edited out of at least one of them at time of us recording. The fact that Armie Hammer plays the role of the older person in this big age gap relationship also makes it very difficult watch. And I can understand why this makes it a very difficult watch for many people. Armie Hammer is also kind of like, it's somewhat of a problematic person anyway, based on the fact that he kind of like rode the wave of like pseudo feminism, and from being from a rich family was then able to basically got his way into Hollywood through all of these kinds of like indie projects and stuff like that. So that is what I have been reading.

ROWAN: Oh that is such fun. I also think it's very important to know that since this, Timothy has been in accountable movie, which I think is just the wildest turn of events.

JAZZA: Yeah, I heard just to spite Armie Hammer.

ROWAN: Just to spite Armie Hammer. And it's really—so this is, I think, really interesting, to—like so relevant to this movie. But just as a thing that's been obviously I feel like it'd be strange for us not to talk about this, when it's such a huge part of like, what has happened since around like the mythos of this movie, is the fact that like the sexual abuse allegations, like the—the cannibalism kink kind of sense that used to sensationalize, what were like, actual serious allegations, because as Jazza said, listen, if you like to do dirty talk about eating someone's toes, then like, all power to you like, that's all fine. As long as everything consensual, it's great. I think it's that lack of the consent issue, that is the issue. But also, I imagine that Timothy is probably quite relieved that he is—

JAZZA: The sequel isn't being made anymore.

ROWAN: —that the sequel isn't being made anymore. And I think a lot of people are kind of like, oh, nope, this isn't a vibe. And so I think that it's something that is always kind of going to be attached to the legacy of this movie. And that is a part of me that, that is like actually, probably these allegations were even unconsciously in the back of my mind. We're watching it now, and I don't know if I would have had a different like visceral experience watching it before then or whether it would have been the same for me.

JAZZA: And even—and even outside of this. There's one more thing that

ROWAN: Okay, another.

JAZZA: Yeah, there's one more thing that I think that we should consider here. So the Vita of the original book, Andre Aciman is also become a somewhat controversial figure. He did an interview in a Air Catalonia, which is a Spanish publication, saying, and I quote a translation here, I see 12 year old girls, and I find them attractive, which understandably—

ROWAN: Isn't good.

JAZZA: Bad.

ROWAN: Bad in fact, some might say. And I think as well, like this is—this is—this is one of those things where it's like, okay, if we're going to be talking about the idea of authorial intent, and all that kind of stuff, like all of this stuff does get messy, and it is on one level that it is like an intellectual exercise of like, can you separate the art from the artist? I think it's also a practical exercise of do you want to financially support someone who behaves in a certain way or, or think certain things. And then there's the emotional idea of like, you're not necessarily logically thinking about it, you just have an emotional visceral reaction, whether negative or positive to certain stuff. And I think those things are all very complicated and mixed together, in a way that means that it's compli—It's complicated essentially.

JAZZA: Yeah. 100%. And like, you can approach this or at least try to approach this with like a depth of the other thing. I think it is, I think with Call Me By Your Name, it is possible—for me anyway, it is possible to watch this without kind of like it then being something that ties wit— ties back to that, I think it has artistic merit and artistic context, without the stuff around and stuff around Armie Hammer tainting it. However, I think it's still important that you know that those are things that are swimming around in the primordial soup of what happened when society met this movie. And if you don't kind of like acknowledge those things and understand those things, that means that you don't understand the wider context of kind of like how this movie fits into our society properly.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Of course you can not—you can—you can enjoy the art separate from that. But then once that art is into intersecting with everything else, then there's—let's just say background reading that you have to do.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: That's quite a lot of it.

ROWAN: And I think it's also very legitimate to be like, actually, nope.

JAZZA: Oh, sure.

ROWAN: And also, but—but—but like, for example, the fact of like, hey, you can have this source material, which is this book, and you come at it from a—the point of view of the gay director who directed this movie and be like, okay, I see something in this experience of my experience, as a boy having an experience like Elio did, and I would like to reflect that very particular nuanced experience on film, in a way that is, since we're talking about the other genre, I guess, within this movie, with an authorial intent that comes less from the original writer of the book, and more from the, like a queer creator of the movie. But again, all of this is very complicated. And I think that like, this is one of the reasons why I think this movie is interesting to talk about, because there—there are so many ways to interpret it. And so many external things and internal things in the movie that are, I think, for a lot of people aren't even necessarily logically explainable as to how they feel about it, whether it is because of their own personal experience, or their experience of of this in other movies that makes them either more used to it, or more heightened ly aware of the potential problematic nature. But having said that I guess, shall we talk about the movie itself?

JAZZA: Shall we actually do that now?

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Let's go.

[theme]

JAZZA: Hello, friends Jazza here for the ad read. As returning listeners will know, we are part of Multitude, a collective of creators who make stuff for your ears, as in audio, not like so anything like that. This week, we want to give a shout out to one of our sibling shows, Games and Feelings. Games and Feelings is an advice podcast about games, join question keeper, Eric Silver, and a revolving cast of guests as they answer your questions at the intersection of fun and humanity. Since you know, you got to play games with other people. And we're talking every single type of game. Let's go, video games of all stripes, tabletop games, party games, laser tag, escape rooms, game streams, d&d podcasts, the companies and workers that make these games. Anything you can think of really. Questions will include how do you convince people who have only played Monopoly, to play the new board game that you grabbed at the game shop? Is an escape room a good third date? And what makes video games cozy? And are there any recommendations? Eric and his friends answer any and all questions as long as they're games related. If you like what you hear and want to level up your emotional intelligence stat, subscribe now, wherever you get your podcasts, new episodes every Friday. We're also continuing to be supported by Squarespace who can help you to buy a domain and create a website. We have in the past talked about how we use Squarespace extensively as professional internet people for website creation, giving us access to analytics. So we know where everybody is clicking through from, and the creation of email campaigns, so that we can, you know, bypass the algorithm to get to all of our followers. And also, we use it as a convenient way to be able to connect all of our social media in one place. We know that you hear a lot of your favorite creators, podcasts, media's, offering their discount codes, but it would really help us out at the Queer Movie Podcast if you use us and supported the Queer Movie Podcast. All you need to do, to do that is go to squarespace.com/queermovie. And when you're set up to make all your digital dreams come true, you can use the offer code, Queer Movie, that's all one word, to save 10 percentage points of your first purchase of a website or domain. Remember to go to squarespace.com/queermovie. Now back to the show.

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ROWAN: Okay, I actually have some titles for the parts for this one.

JAZZA: I will happily see to use let's go.

ROWAN: Because we have previously in the last few episodes, it has just been Jazza. So part one, I have named Dance Like No One is Watching. Oh God, Why Am I Watching. Which could also be the party and its aftermath. In fact, again, there's a few parties and their aftermaths in here, which you know, longtime listeners of the show will know is a thing that queer movies do have. And we saw it in the summer of 1983 and skinny boy Tommy is you know speaking French and being topless in northern Italy. Classic. Essentially Timothy playing Elio is on holiday with his parents who are academics and his father as an archaeologist/digger, rapper, dredger of old things Professor man, and his mum is a posh woman. And—

JAZZA: Yeah, just a—just a multi lingual, a polyglot. Sometimes French, sometimes American who knows?

ROWAN: Can speak German—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —very talented family. And we see the kind of inciting incident is that Oliver? This guy who is going to be spending the summer with them, this academic they seem to take in academics every year of the summer, comes in exhausted, collapses on the bed of Elios room, because Elios has been moved next door. And essentially we find out that this guy is staying for the summer. And Elio is a—is a boy from a very talented family who also is very talented. He's a music boy, and loves to—loves to be an angsty teenager who plays music except when his parents want him to.

JAZZA: Exactly. Um he's literally sitting there transcribing Bach, which I can't imagine.

ROWAN: Pretentious little 17 year old.

JAZZA: Pretentious little shit. Can you imagine being 17 and actually being like him.

ROWAN: He's like the word precocious in the dictionary you look at it's a picture of Elio.

JAZZA: So we end up getting to know Oliver a little bit. He wears a style of David and we seem to wha—were explicitly told by Oliver when he talks about his family, how strict, how much more strict his family are. Elios family seemed to be perfect, right? Pretty much in every single way—they—the way that they kind of like encourage their son they—the way that they kind of like are accepting of the moments that he has over the summer. They seem like a really clutch tight knit group who are very affectionate with one another. At the very beginning, Elio is almost repulsed by Oliver. And I think that this is— the way that this is shown is not only by kind of like the brashness of his Americaness, and how confident and outgoing he is and how terribly he dances. That's like nobody is watching. But it's also and I love noticing this theme, the second time that I watched it. I think that a lot of that disgust at the beginning, especially at the beginning is shown through food. So the way that Oliver downs all of the juice, and like chugs it really, really quickly and

ROWAN: Smashing that egg in such a gross way.

JAZZA: He like crushes this hard—the soft boiled egg.

ROWAN: He's such a strong man.

JAZZA: It is kind of like—So it kind of like cascades everywhere and all of the yolk goes everywhere. And it's quite grotesque. And we also hear Oliver talk about how, oh, if I have another one, then I just have another, another, I just can't help myself.

ROWAN: Just can't help yourself huh, Oliver. Interesting way of phrasing that Oliver.

JAZZA: And we um—

ROWAN: He's just so American. He's just so loud. He's just constantly like any says he calls, he calls Elio man all the time. Like every time he talks to me, he's like, huh thanks, man. Thanks—thanks, man. Yeah, man. And I'm like, Thanks, childs. Thanks, boy.

JAZZA: Big, big—big redIt's a big red flag for me actually, I'm gonna do just for a second because I was talking to a guy on Grindr just last night, and we were talking about our likes and dislikes.

ROWAN: We're talking about the politics of Call Me By Your Name. And—

JAZZA: No, no, no. We were talking about the highlights and lowlights of so I am his latest album. And after every single thing he was like, yeah, I think that this hell is really some of her best work, bro. I'm like, do not—

ROWAN: Bro me.

JAZZA: —do not bro me, especially when talking about a queer artist like Anyway, and this like grotesqueness is obviously something that you could tie into the eventual really disgusting scene in fucking the page, where it's like, see—

ROWAN: It's so sticky.

JAZZA: So sticky, the sugars crystal was gonna get everywhere.

ROWAN: And he didn't even like wipe— anyway, well—we'll get to

JAZZA: Anyway—

ROWAN: I think it's also very important to note here, for anyone who is a member of the Patreon not to plug the Patreon, but we do watch a lot of queer movies every month. And we talk about queer movies a lot over there. And we have a list now we've got like a bi—I think someone's made a bingo card of like, gay stuff and movies and bikes. Bikes are very gay everyone.

JAZZA: Bikes are gay.

ROWAN: Bikes are so gay. And I think this movie is like one of the top contenders for evidence for exhibit A bikes are gay, because all they bloody do in this movie is bike around and fuck those are—I mean, I guess some other stuff happens. But mainly, I feel like I could just put the bullet point, they bike around because bikes are gay, and it would be like a solid half hour of this movie at least. So while they are biking around on their gay little bikes, a bunch of stuff happens. So for example, they have this conversation about Judaism, about the idea that Elio seen Oliver's necklace and comments about the idea of like, besides my family, you're probably the only other dude to set foot in this town. Kind of creating this interesting sort of connection between them. We also get this conversation around like, what does he do during the summer, are we just like reads, and writes, and swims and apparently, for 17 year old, that's a terrible summer. Can't relate. And then we also have these interesting moments of contrast. So like Oliver takes Elio to this bar where these older men are playing cards. And Elio, like, joins them at the table, where he's like, clearly the youngest one trying to like fit it.

JAZZA: But he's kind of sat back right. I think that—this was another way of like framing him as a child.

ROWAN: He brings the chair in woods, whereas the very—it cuts to a scene with all of these other teenagers where he has pulled the chair away from the table, and it's like sitting apart. And I'm like, oh, that's interesting. That's contrasting the old men and the young teens. And then you realize that Oliver is with the teens also playing with the teens. And I'm like Oliver, please just stop. And then that's when Oliver gives him this massage. And I'm like, Oliver, please stop it. You're too stressed, relax a little. Hey, isn't he too stressed, which is also the moment where he like shaves his nonexistent mustache during this section. And so it's basically just like a lot of interesting moments of like, Elio feeling like this summer is him becoming older, that he is—he's feeling separate from the immaturity of these like teenagers in his life, as he feels like he's more in line with his parents generation, these old man paying cars, this new fascinating guy who he's starting to like a little bit more, who's come into the picture, who's willing to spend time with him. And at this point, like he's still a little bit like, oh, I don't want to like he's grumpy about playing the piano with his dad. Like his parents are saying like, oh, you'll learn to like him as he's kind of making these little complaints about Oliver, and how he doesn't really like him. And then Elio obviously scoffs off this section of soul searching and growth by having a little masturbate, having a little bate. Classic teen boys shit gets interrupted by Oliver who comes in without knocking, very rude house guests. But that is—that is just smashing up eggs and knocking on doors.

JAZZA: Yeah, piercing really loudly with the door open and slammed. Yeah, all of that kind of stuff.

ROWAN: And so we also have Oliver inviting Elio to come—to come swimming with me. Elio obviously brings music sheets with him because he's a little fucking nerd. And Oliver hilariously swims laps in a pool which is so tiny—

JAZZA: Which is literally—

ROWAN: One breaststroke, and he's on the other side of the pool

JAZZA: The—the pool is literally about two and a half meters long, so he like pushes off and that is the other end of the pool.

ROWAN: So funny.

JAZZA: Most pointless laps on the face of the planet.

ROWAN: And then we also got like—basically just a lot of moments of them bonding in various ways and a lot of the time over like kind of intellectual stuff like the music. You know, Oliver complements him on playing the guitar, Elio immediately goes inside to play the piano and they have an argument about piano that I don't know enough about music to understand.

JAZZA: I didn't—I didn't understand this at all. And I hated this scene, because I thought they both come across as I came across as absolute assholes.

ROWAN: Classic. And then he—Elio writes in his diary about he's like, dear diary.

JAZZA: Yeah,

ROWAN: I don't think he likes me,

JAZZA: I was too harsh with him. Why did—Yeah. Oh no.

ROWAN: like over and over again, like the child that he is, and then also at one point I've just written Elio bullies the dying fish, which is just like an old man.

JAZZA: I haven't even thought of this scene. Why the hell was the

ROWAN: Elio an old man comes to show Elio the fishes he's like clearly just caught and they're gonna like cook that night. And Elio just like looks dead into this fish's eyes, that's like gasping for water, I guess, and just mimics it and I'm like, wow, Elio, that poor fish in its last moments, just has some precocious teenager taking the piss.

JAZZA: In everything that happened in this movie. And it's a long movie. I cannot believe that—that is a thing that has stayed in your mind.

ROWAN: It was just this poor—he was like, oh, you've caught the fish. And I was like, oh, nice a fish. And then it was just a close up on a dying fish. I was like someone put that fish back in the water, stop. And then we have the dance. The party that I named this part of after, which is just an awkward outdoor disco, where Elio sort of hangs out with some of his fellow teens. There's different table because he's different and an old soul. We're watching Oliver kiss his childhood best friend.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Who again is also a teenager. And dances like a dad. I put here Oliver dances like a dad, Elio smokes like a dad. And then clearly he's so affected by this. So he's like, you know what I'm gonna do, fuck a girl. And so he goes swimming with Marzia, I think her name is Marzia.

JAZZA: Marzia.

ROWAN: And the next morning is like dad, I almost had sex. And then his dad's like, why didn't you cock, and then Oliver's like yeah, try again, later loser. Verbatim. And he then he does. That's—that's—that's exactly a quote—quotes from the movie.

JAZZA: You cock. That I ha—I have great umbrage with the sex scene, especially with Marzia. Not only does poor Marcia deserve better, and she—she needs to get the fuck over, Elio, come on girl, but also their fucking on a very dirty, very dusty mattress in an attic somewhere.

ROWAN: He love—that boy loves to do it outside, or in a building where you can see the sky.

JAZZA: Yeah. 100% and is surrounded by dust and microbes that are probably going to give you a venereal disease.

ROWAN: Not good.

JAZZA: So good luck—and it's the 80s, Penicillin didn't exist then. So they're all fucked.

ROWAN: Yeah, of course, the 1980s.

JAZZA: That's just science, Rowan.

ROWAN: So basically, to sum up—I don't know how I'm explaining this in such a long winded way. Because basically all that happens is that they bike around and then they fuck, but they go on an archaeology trip. And they call each other by each other's names. That's the title of the movie.

JAZZA: They haven't even—they haven't eve—you're skipping

ROWAN: No, when they're swimming. This is before—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —they didn't only— this isn't the sexy bit. This is when they're in the water when they're swimming and you hear them shouting each other's names.

JAZZA: Oh, I didn't even

ROWAN: And I was like, yeah, that we're getting to the part of the movie. Basically, this one Elio is extremely sexually frustrated, puts all of his shorts on his head, get on all fours on the bed. I'm like, please stop, sir. But only does it for about two seconds. I'm like commit to the bit, and uh—and then it's act two, and essentially more of the same.

[theme]

JAZZA: What is your act two called, Rowan?

ROWAN: Call me by your name, That's the title of the movie.

JAZZA: I called this fucking people in fruits.

ROWAN: Yes, that's also true. This is where the World War Memorial thing came in. Which I think you had some notes on.

JAZZA: Yeah, so the—the tension of this scene I really, really enjoy because it's earlier on in the film. We've heard Elio's mother the polyglot who we're not really sure what she does, live translates a book about a knight and a princess. And how the knight is terrified to say anything with the princess that he's in love with, like, do you say something, or do you die? That this clearly sits with Elio because he's building up all of these emotions, as we've seen with all of the doodling, with all of kind of like the storytelling of the movie, with the subtlety, and the subtlety of him putting Armie Hammer pants over his head.

ROWAN: Very Subtle.

JAZZA: Yeah, very subtle. And so he ends up deciding to do something about it. And I love the building of the tension, the amount of silence that fills the space of the scenes I think is really fantastically well done. So they're —they're watching looking at this from World War One. And he says to Oliver, there are some things I don't know stuff about. Oliver says like what, and just with the words oh, you know what? We all know that talking about sexy fun bomb time. And so—

ROWAN: Direct quote from the movie.

JAZZA: Direct quote from the movie. So they end up in like this—this tension builds Oliver says we can't speak of such things. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. Elio then takes Oliver to his secret spot, which—

ROWAN: and then he takes all over to his secret spot, if you know what I mean.

JAZZA: You are fucking chaotic today, Rowan.

ROWAN: Listen, you should have known when you made me watch this bloody movie that I was gonna come to you with this nonsense.

JAZZA: So they rolled around on the grass a little bit. It's not quite wrestling, which is

ROWAN: Another classic trope.

JAZZA: Yeah, I don't think you can quite mark this off on your bingo card. But they end up making out, and Oliver reinforces this thing of I want to be good. I don't want to be bad. We haven't done anything naughty yet. hehe. Tehehe. And then—

ROWAN: Elio's nose starts bleeding at dinner from the stress of dealing with heterosexual bickering is what I've put in my notes. And so again, like there's another moment where Oliver goes to check on him, rubs his feet, kisses them. Elio's mom is like, do you like Oliver and Elio's like, um, what did he tell you, did he tell you that I liked him. And she notices that he's wearing a Star of David. And it's like, oh, I think the parents might be figuring it out. I wonder what's going to happen. Spoiler alert, this isn't the like third act. Don't. You can't see him. But daddy I love him. Like that's not the what the drama is gonna be.

JAZZA: I was watching Nerdwriter do his video about this. And there is—

ROWAN: Actuall research.

JAZZA: There was really great—

ROWAN: Jazza John over here.

JAZZA: —and it was really great commentary on the fact that you're always—and I was also thinking this, there was—this building tension of when are they going to be found out? So there's—they mentioned the housekeeper was really diligent, she might notice. And there's the worry that like, especially the parents, we keep on getting seated that they're noticing stuff, with like slight glances and looks. And we— like I have an underlying like tension and uneasiness when you see this because I expect there to be the low point in the just before the third act to be they get found out. And then there was consequences to that.

ROWAN: The difference is I wish there had been, but unfortunately.

JAZZA: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: That was, yeah, we get it. There's part of me that really likes the fact that, that never happens in a scenario like this, in a queer story that there isn't—it—it like, it's not like they're pretending that they're in a world where homophobia doesn't exist, especially in 1980s, Italy. And they are having to be kind of, like, clandestine about it. But that is never a fear, that kind of like comes to fruition. The fear is them not being together. And they managed to avoid that by acting on it.

ROWAN: Only just.

JAZZA: Only, only just. So they are, they end up being together for kind of like, a couple of weeks, and they're lamenting, oh my God, how annoying that we didn't roll around naked earlier. And eventually, this is where I have the beginning of the third act, where the parents end up suggesting that they go on holiday together, essentially.

ROWAN: Yeah. I mean, we haven't mentioned, but this is also the section where he fucks a peach.

JAZZA: Oh, my God.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: So how did you engage with the peach?

ROWAN: I was just like, get some wet wipes, at least. Also don't like leave it on your bedside table when you take a nap.

JAZZA: Yeah, it is kind of disgusting. But there's also lots of people who have done loads of disgusting things in the pursuit of self pleasure.

ROWAN: Of course they have.

JAZZA: And I actually quite like, despite the fact that everybody—the reason that people went to see this movie is because of the fucking peach scene. And it was sensationalized and it were, and everybody found it funny. But the movie takes it deadly seriously.

ROWAN: Oh, it's so serious. He goes on such a face journey. Timmy goes on such a fucking face journey during the scene, where it occurs to me could fuck a peach. And then he's like, I'm a—I'm fucking this peach.

JAZZA: It's very American pie, with the American Pie.

ROWAN: Right. And so yeah, I just—okay, so this whole second act, I will say, again, we get it Rowan, you have some thoughts about it. But it was really—it was almost frustrating to me, because I wasn't—there were so many lines from Oliver, where it's unclear if he's talking about his own internalized homophobia or whether he is aware of the fact he's about to fuck a 17 year old. Because it's a lot of like, I don't want to mess you up, I want you to be sure. Like, he seems really excited about like Elio's shorts, teenage boy refractory period. I don't want you to regret anything. And I—it's frustrating, because I'm like, I almost wish that some of these lines in this like attitude had been within a movie without that age gap, where it had been a character who would—

JAZZA: A peer, well, if they were peers, like I—

ROWAN: If they were peers, and one of them was outwardly—

JAZZA: If it was 17 and a 19 year old—

ROWAN: Oh, if it yeah, it was like, I kind of wish that we'd had because some of the—some of the emotions, like felt really interesting if it had been about queerness. But I was always so aware of the fact it could just be an adult being like, I don't know, you're so mature, but I don't want to do anything that's gonna get us in trouble. And Elio's like, I won't tell anyone like, and so I kind of wish that we'd had like, that same energy of like having a peers who are in different stages in their queerness. Having that kind of emotional conversations would have been interesting to me.

JAZZA: A lot of the criticism of the movie I have seen that I think is somewhat misguided has been, why didn't they just make Elio 18? And I think that there are still so many of the same problems

ROWAN: Yeah. I agree.

JAZZA: You just bump Elio up a year.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: What I think actually would fix this movie. It's making—I'm available. Is—is making Oliver younger, making Oliver an undergrad, making him like 19 or something along those lines, which would still work with that story. It would still make sense like a first year undergrad applies for a research.

ROWAN: Yeah, summer research.

JAZZA: Petition, some of the—Program. Yeah, whatever. And then, because I think Oliver's character in the movie is battling a lot of the same things that Elio is, and in many ways, because of his more conservative background is having those, those battles in a much more intense way that I think would feel more sympathetic. If he were—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: If there weren't kind of like this huge power imbalance that they have. That is glaring about it. And so if we can go through and do kind of like some reshoots because Timothy looks exactly the same age.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And maybe we're getting another character completely wiped out Armie Hammer of the movie.

ROWAN: easy, breezy.

JAZZA: We can—we can do it. Yeah.

ROWAN: What did you call act three?

JAZZA: I called Act Three. This was my party and it's aftermath. And I called it a party in its aftermath, only because of that dancing that they did on the street and then Elio throws up.

ROWAN: That's fair.

JAZZA: Because that's my idea of a good party.

ROWAN: Yeah. my—my part three was bitch, they knew each other for like three weeks. I mean, you can sum up this entire thing. This is a very top heavy episode, I think for everyone. Like we did a lot of context and a lot of build up. But essentially, they go on holiday together.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: They fuck, they get drunk in the street, they dance. Everything's great. And then all of us like bye.

JAZZA: And then Ol—well, because

ROWAN: come to an end, I have to go and Elio's at the train station, like mom please, come on pick me up.

JAZZA: calls up his mom and go mommy, can you come and pick me up please.

ROWAN: Come pick me up from the station, I'm here. And then Elio goes right back to Marzia, and it's like, and she's like, I'm not mad at you for fucking that man, let's stay friends for life. And he's like, for life babe. And then Elio's dad and him have an interesting conversation, where it's like, implied that maybe his dad had a similar romance that he didn't quite go full.

JAZZA: He says it pretty explicitly. I feel like

ROWAN: You had a beautiful friendship, maybe more than a friendship. Like all of this vibes. What you had was rare and special.when I was like, bitch, they knew each other for three weeks, calm down.

JAZZA: But it's like, you're such

ROWAN: Anti-romantic. Oh you're right. One of these days, I'll find the romance that satisfies me.

JAZZA: I'm not a romantic. I'm anti romantic. Evil. But I I really love this monologue. And I think about the I can't remember the exact of the line. But I think about that it's better to have. It's the—it's better to have love

ROWAN: Yeah. And the importance of feeling those emotions. I also really appreciated the scene I thought was really beautifully scripted, I think it's—

JAZZA: Soft dad, we stan.

ROWAN: Yeah, soft dad, we stan, where he's essentially just like, hey, you need to feel these feelings. And because what I don't want to happen is that you go into these into future relationships with this still being feeling like heavy baggage to you and feeling like it's going to affect your life going forwards in a negative way because you haven't actually allowed yourself to feel every part of it. And come to terms with it, which I felt like was very, you know, a nice thing to say. And then also there's the exchange of does mom know, I don't think she does. And I'm like, mom knows fucking everything. No, mom knows everything about both of you idiots.

JAZZA: Yeah, of course she fucking knows.

ROWAN: You fools.

JAZZA: She sees everything

ROWAN: She sees everything. And then the end of the movie. It's winter now, Happy Hanukkah, everyone.

JAZZA: Happy Hanukkah.

ROWAN: And what could be a better Hanukkah gift than Oliver calling the family to, to tell them that he's getting married to a woman that he was on and off seeing during the summer when he was with Elio.

JAZZA: Great.

ROWAN: The end of the movie. And then Elio sits down and cries into a fire. That's yeah, that is literally the end of the film. And the credits are over Timmy doing a good bit of face acting again. This time not about whether he wants to fuck a peach, but whether you know he's a— he's— he's experiencing that happiness and sadness that dad told him to experience looking into the fire.

JAZZA: So you mock the face acting, but he did get in the

ROWAN: No, I'm not mocking the face acting. He did a very good face acting. I'm not— I would—I would never mock him for it. I'm just pointing out that he did it twice. And I would say the second time has a slightly more emotional weight to it. And that was Call Me By Your Name.

[theme]

JAZZA: Jazza.

ROWAN: Absolutely not. I will not play this game with you.

JAZZA: Jazza.

ROWAN: Rowan.

JAZZA: We are now at the part of the podcast, where we give our very good ratings. So we like to give each of the movies that we rate a number of the colored bars of the six rainbow flag. They are red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, blue for harmony and purple for spirit. Rowan,what bars and how many are you giving?

ROWAN: I'm sorry Jazza, it's getting one. For the—

JAZZA: I can't believe you're so

ROWAN: —boredom and the ickyness. And I'm gonna say it gets yellow for sun, because it was in Italy during the summer.

JAZZA: It was basically a tourism advert for Northern Italy to be fair.

ROWAN: It really was. So I want to go to all of those places. I did write in my notes like a question mark find out if the house from Call Me By Your Name is an air b&b now, like can we go there? When I was probably meant to be focusing on whatever was going on on screen. Jazza, how about you, how many bars and which colors?

JAZZA: Yeah, fuck you. I'm giving it five.

ROWAN: Of course, she fucking

JAZZA: So I'm giving it life/sex red. I'm gonna give it healing because—which is orange because of the healing—

ROWAN: At the end.

JAZZA: —that happens at the end. Then I'm gonna give it the sunlight because it's an advert for Northern Italy and I love Lake Garda, and I want to have my honeymoon there. Nature, obviously, I can't believe that you miss that off. So I'm giving it the green, and then I'm going to give—

ROWAN: The peach.

JAZZA: —candle so he fucks a plant. And then I'm gonna give it a purple for spirit.

ROWAN: I'll allow it.

JAZZA: Because I needed to give it

ROWAN: Yeah, you have to give another one. Not very harmonious. I would be fascinated to hear what other people— I always wonder what listeners think about the films that we watch, but for this one especially I'm— I'm extra interested, considering I think this is the most divisive in terms of our final ratings that a film has been.

JAZZA: I think this is the most divergent from

ROWAN: Yeah. And so I would love to hear whether people agree with me or wrong.

[theme]

ROWAN: So thank you very much for listening to this episode of the podcast, and all that the It has been—if you enjoy these episodes, please consider supporting us on the Patreon I mentioned earlier. As a patron, you get to join art Queer Movie Club, will be watch Queer movies every month on our Discord, which you will also get access to. And then at higher levels, we've got exciting things like movie recommendations, monthly newsletters with lots of gay stuff that we've found on the internet during the month. So check it out, because it allows us to pay Julia, our editor, and then maybe eventually ourselves.

JAZZA: It would be nice for me. Thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier that we have on Patreon. Like its pinch self. Oh, it's real. Makes us feel nice.

ROWAN: Thank you.

JAZZA: Thank you very much.

ROWAN: And then also make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast, so that you're notified of our next episode wherever you listen to your podcasts. We have been Jazza John and Rowan Ellis. We are edited by Julia Schifini, and a part of Multitude find more of that amazing stuff at multitude.productions

JAZZA: Toodaloo.

ROWAN: Thanks.

[theme]

Glass Onion (Queer Mystery)

5 januari 2023 | 65 min

The new Knives Out movie is a bit gay, apparently... well, we'll be the judge of that!

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

ROWAN: Before we get into this episode, we just wanted to say a massive thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby who support us on Patreon at the rainbow parent level. So incredible. Thank you so much for all of your support. If you would like to check out our Patreon which has a bunch of different perks, including queer watch alongs our Discord that's exclusive to patrons, and a bunch of other stuff besides then check us [email protected]/thequeermoviepodcast. Okay on with the show.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best—

ROWAN: —and worst—

JAZZA: In LGBTQ plus cinema. One glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I am Jazza John.

ROWAN: Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode genre is—

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Queer mystery?

JAZZA: I love we made that a question.

ROWAN: Very coordinated.

JAZZA: Today we are going to be talking about Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery. This is the latest in the Knives Out Series of Films that it is the second. It's still a series that accounts and it's starring Daniel Craig as Benoit Blanc and Hugh Grant as his housekeeper.

ROWAN: But before we done our mesh facemasks, Jazza, what's the gayest thing you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA: What a great question that I actually hadn't thought about until you just asked me now.

ROWAN: You did give me a short Christmasy candle anecdote earlier, which I think is a very good option.

JAZZA: Excellent. Thank you so much for knowing me better than I know myself. So as you know, I have now moved to New York. Hello, I'm Jazza, and I live in New York.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: And I on my first weekend attended, it was the one after Christmas and attended a lesbian candle white elephant where—

ROWAN: Stunning.

JAZZA: I went to the Union Square Christmas market and asked one of the people on the market stand to give me their gayest candle because it was for lesbians. And I asked what did the lesbians want? And she went sage.

ROWAN: And she was right.

JAZZA: And she was right. They veritably fought over

ROWAN: Notorious, notorious for the sage.

JAZZA: How about you Rowan?

ROWAN: Well, I accidentally got a wolf cut in my hair.

JAZZA: And

ROWAN: I—basically I just was like, oh, can I get slightly shorter layers than I did before? And then she really went hard on the like, the front of my head with the short layers. And then just continued until the back was like a bit struggling. So I was like, oh, wow—

JAZZA: Oh no.

ROWAN: And she was like, uh-huh, let's take a wolf cut. And I was like, it is one. Not what I asked for, but I was like, I guess it makes me more you know, Gen Z gay, so.

JAZZA: Oh, yeah because the blue hair wasn't enough.

ROWAN: Yeah. No.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: So they are looking at me slightly closer, because I've been wearing my hair

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: So he hasn't…

JAZZA: I haven't been oh my god, the reveal.

ROWAN: I mean it's slightly greasy. So it's—

JAZZA: Oh, my go—

ROWAN: And my hair is just a bit of a mess.

JAZZA: I would—you look great—

ROWAN: I'm gay.

JAZZA: But it does increase your lesbian.

ROWAN: Yeah, it really does.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: So I think I need to figure out how to like style it and work with it and get over the panic and stress of having a haircut. I didn't think I was gonna have. I was like, yeah, keep the length, that it happened. But it just made me more gay. So that's my gayest thing from this month.

[theme]

JAZZA: We will first be chatting about the gay of this film. How they marketed it as such, and also the inherent queerness of the mystery genre.

ROWAN: We will then be reviewing the plot and splitting the film into three acts. Of course, as usual. Obviously, we will be spoiling all of this movie, you know, feel free to watch and come back to us when you've seen it. I would recommend that, I like this movie. Spoiler alert. But also, it is a murder mystery. So like if you—if you—some movies, you could listen to our explanation and then go watch and be like, wow, I feel like I've had an entirely whole experience. But we will be giving away who did the murder. So it feels like maybe watch it before we give that away to you.

JAZZA: Excellent. And so without further ado, let's get online and play a quick game of Among Us with Angela Lansbury and review Glass Onion.

[theme]

JAZZA: So we have had it confirmed by directors, cast members, the gossiping classes of the movie elite, that this film is indeed about Benoit Blanc who is confirmed as a gay.

ROWAN: Homosexual.

JAZZA: Veritable homosexual. So we found this out just before it was released in the run-up to Christmas this year, through a load of the media PR interviews that were happening around the movie with—I first found out about it listening to radio four in the morning, because I'm just really engaged with politics, where Daniel Craig was being interviewed and they just had a quick conversation about oh, yeah, it was—it was just really obvious that Blanc was gay because he's uh—

ROWAN: some neckties.

JAZZA: Wears—

ROWAN: Neckerchief.

JAZZA: Neckerchiefs. Loves the neckerchiefs, and is a bit eccentric. And it has been described and talked about by the cast members and Rian Johnson, the director as when they thought about showing a little bit of Benoit Blanc's homelife. It was “obvious” quote-unquote, to them that this would be how they were going to code the character, and that it fit really, really well. I was first excited and then worried. Because this feels like a narrative, a trope, a way of discussing the queerness of a movie that we have seen with many, many films in the past. When, if you blink, maybe you miss it. But it's very important to the marketing of the movie that everybody knows that this is now queer, or has a queer character in it.

ROWAN: This is indeed a term that I coined for a long-ass video essay that I made a couple years ago. Queer Catching.

JAZZA: Queer Catching. And—

ROWAN: They really did it.

JAZZA: Hey, they caught this—

ROWAN: Textbook.

JAZZA: —they caught this queer.

ROWAN: They call you. I mean I was gonna watch it anyway but—

JAZZA: Yeah, of course. And I would have anyway as well. I am very conscious that when especially Rian Johnson has done interviews around the home life of Benoit Blanc, he wants it to be kind of like a pogo, where you never really the—the personal life of the detective of the main character in a mystery is never a focal point of the story or the narrative. They are the vessel through which you experience the unfolding of the story. And that makes sense for this genre. But I feel like the—I feel like the problem here is that if there is—this is like a queer coded character made for a Chinese audience, where unless you know that, that scene, and it is one scene where Hugh Grant opens the door for Daniel Craig, they aren't even in the same scene together. You would not know that they are a gay couple.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And I feel like we were—we've been conned a little bit. What do you think?

ROWAN: I kind of agree with you. I think that especially within this genre, right? And I'm going to talk a little bit in my context section about the like, queerness of the detective genre. But I don't think it's a coincidence that so many people that I've seen online, who didn't see the interviews that were done beforehand that I think we're done, partly in order for people to like get that this was a thing from the beginning and there—for there to be like no doubt when they go into the cinemas. People hadn't seen these interviews, and all those discussions beforehand, fully thinking it was a Holmes and Watson situation.

JAZZA: Hmm.

ROWAN: Right.

JAZZA: My parents who had seen none of the—I watched this the first time with my parents, they had no idea. They didn't clock that as a—as a quick outro at all.

ROWAN: Yeah. And so yeah, I—I would agree with you. I think also, it's interesting because I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with like, I've seen interviews where they essentially ask like, oh, did you know that he was gay when you first like auditioned or during the first movie? And Daniel Craig was like, no, because he clearly wasn't. And it was something that came between movies, when they found out they were getting a sequel or maybe multiple sequels, and that Rian Johnson was like, okay, I guess I gotta figure out who this character is outside of these like, elements of it. Potentially, he had that thought in his head, but he clearly never said it to the actors. And I think that—I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with deciding to flesh out a character who you thought was only going to be a one movie or one season and then being like, ah, actually, I feel like I've realized something about them, that I can include. I really thought about their backstory or their personal life, but now it's making sense to me. But I think that then only giving us this like one ambiguous scene is a bit strange to me. And I think that—that thing that you said about okay, this has to, you know, the detective's personal life can't be the focal point and everything. You can have that and also have made it explicit that they will get—like he—his character, Hugh Grant's character calls Benoit Blanc, Blanc, like his by his surname.

JAZZA: Yeah. Yeah.

ROWAN: It doesn't even like— I— the smallest detail if he'd have just said, instead of being like, there's someone at the door for yo Benny, or even like, to be honest, I would have preferred like an actual term of endearment, because —he's very British. Darling is a classic British one. If you'd have just been like, there's someone at the door for you, darling. Yeah, that would have made no difference in the scene. It would have given you know, more or less information, but it would actually have confirmed it.

JAZZA: And the problem that I have with the scene as well, is it feels sandwiched in and kept in just for the sake of queer coding. There's the concept in western film storytelling where everything in the movie is meant to move the plot forward. This does nothing to move the plot forward. And there it—isn't even that Hugh Grant's character is a minor character that doesn't really do anything because there are other minor characters and secondary characters that we see in very brief scenes. I'm thinking about Dave Bautista's mother for example, who's literally in just like one funny scene but tells us something about um, Bautista's character, moves the plot forward—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: —and like he's actually has a function. Hugh Grant's character has no function in this movie whatsoever. And so it feels like something that is just dropped in. And it's literally two seconds—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: —Of the movie that we— you lit—I would the first time I watched this, I was tired and falling asleep. And I literally missed it because I—I nodded off for like 30 seconds—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: —and missed the scene.

ROWAN: Yes, agreed.

JAZZA: One of the things I've really enjoyed is all of the other queer-coded stuff about Benoit Blanc that people have found and then turned into memes. His fabulous like Grecian flag—

ROWAN: Yeah. Romper?

JAZZA: Romper. Yeah. Beautiful when they get this medicine shot into the back of their neck. And he is the only one that doesn't have a gag reflex.

ROWAN: Yeah. Classic.

JAZZA: All brilliant, brilliant moments. Do—how did the gay, the gays in the mysteries, and the detectives? How what and when?

ROWAN: Thank you for that incredible segue into my bit of context, Jazza, so I think that we can talk about the sort of detective genre, and you know, men co-habiting without talking about Sherlock like I've already mentioned it. And that's, you know, Sherlock notoriously of the BBC version is like one of the most prolific fandoms on the internet. For something that only had like two episodes.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: Like, it's—because it had this like tension. And because it was clearly being like played around with and like, some people might argue queerbaiting was involved with the show, where you have this kind of very close, very caring, loving relationship between these two characters. But then the potential of them being romantically linked is referenced in text quite a lot, for them to just like, awkwardly deny it, or to get flustered about it, or you know anything like that. And so I think that it's not unusual for people to be able to see this subtext of like two men who are very intensely involved in the work and in their personal lives, who kind of complete each other in terms of, it's never just that one of them is able to solve it on their own. There's always like a some element that this other person brings, whether it is to in the case of Sherlock and John, to give them some kind of like grounding element, to give them appreciation where they have had scorn before from—from outsiders, which again, is quite queer coded. And so I think that it's not a sort of surprise to me, that a lot of people who already see the career potential in Sherlock Holmes and John Watson, for example, read this as being very queer. But then the other side of the coin is that it doesn't surprise me that the people who don't see Sherlock Holmes and John Watson is queer coded. Don't see these two as a couple. Because it is so—like he literally opens the door having in the middle of cooking after like, sort of slightly nagging Benoit—

JAZZA: Are you in the bath again? Yeah.

ROWAN: Like it's—it's very much that kind of energy that could be a—a spouse or it could just be, you know, a classic British butler scenario and—

JAZZA: Uh really grea— yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: Still friends, especially because it's clearly during lockdown. So it's like, well, people will cohabitate

JAZZA: all over the place.

ROWAN: They loved apart. And so yeah, I think that it's—I— I don't think that it's completely like the first time we've seen this kind of potential queerness crop up, but it's the first time that we've had other than some indie projects. So there's a—a short film, a short Sherlock film, which is like, specifically queer which is on YouTube, which I can recommend to people. Search that out. But in terms of the big retellings like it's not really—so it's often actors will talk about like, not often, but sometimes actors will kind of hint at the subtext, or they'll do like a nudge and wink element to it. But it's not necessarily been explicit. And I just wish that this had actually done more to have it be completely unambiguous because I think that with Rian Johnson's idea of oh, we just wanted a tiny hint of his backstory is really good cover for not having to make this explicit.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Because people can hear that and very reasonably be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, you know, a lot of these, you don't know a lot about their backstories although I would argue that, because I think they are—

JAZZA: I think it's just a load of rubbish

ROWAN: There are a lot of facts that come in. Because Sherlock, even Pyro, like we've had backstories about Pyro absolutely, especially in the more recent movies and his kind of history as a soldier. And so it frustrates me that they don't necessarily see that there is a very particular way that you need to deal with queer stories, that cannot if you want them to be genuine representations deal with ambiguity, because of the history of queer coding, of queerbaiting and the queer catching. You cannot deal with that ambiguity, and for me be seen as like authentically trying to do representation as opposed to smattering it in a way that can be removed or can be like missed by people.

JAZZA: I have a theory why—because I think that that is especially around the There's definitely kind of like a big queer following to that.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah.

JAZZA: And Sherlock is like another example of that as well. And I have a theory that it celebrates the outsider.

ROWAN: Oh absolutely.

JAZZA: It could be all of these series, the detective that or the investigator is brought in as the outsider who then is celebrated because of their outside their status.

ROWAN: Okay, I agree with you and I'm going to add to two different detectives like kinds of couples who should have engaged together.

JAZZA: Oh. Excellent.

ROWAN: One is an—written the original script. We're partners. Hot Fuzz.

JAZZA: Oh. Ooh.

ROWAN: Well originally—

JAZZA: I didn't know that.

ROWAN: So originally they weren't partners, but there was a love interest for the Simon Pegg's character, and they were given to Nick Frost.

JAZZA: Good.

ROWAN: And so there is this—this idea of like, that is a love story, like these two—this is so easily a romance story if you had just pushed it slightly, and also Rosemary & Thyme.

JAZZA: Oh my god, Rosemary & Thyme—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: I didn't even thought about them.

ROWAN: Those two lesbians, they need a—

JAZZA: Definitely.Their obituary says she stayed, she lived with her longtime friend.

ROWAN: Yeah, exactly.

JAZZA: they own three cats.

ROWAN: Yup. Solved garden related crimes

JAZZA: Oh my god, I haven't even—I need to go back and watch Rosemary & Thyme now.

ROWAN: Anyone who's not British will have no clue what is.

JAZZA: No idea.

ROWAN: But basically it's just two—two women, ones like an ex-police detective and her gardener friend, and for some reason, they're always solving garden-related murders.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: That's so many murders.

JAZZA: It's always like the or the hoe or a plow which is the murder.

ROWAN: They—they were like doing the gardening for some big manor house and like a statue fell on someone.

JAZZA: And—and like the knowledge that the gardener has of like particular herbs in, like plowing techniques—

ROWAN: So gay.

JAZZA: —always comes into it.

ROWAN: All the sage,

ROWAN AND JAZZA: The sage.

ROWAN: So I do think—I think obviously right. I think that outside of status that like it's us two against the world, the idea of you having this like particular knowledge other people don't have, there's like loads of little bits that really lend themselves to queerness. I just wish that it was like explicitly made part of it, so that it could be literally kind of sick for two seconds and missed over.

JAZZA: Which is literally again, literally what happened. We might get that in future—

ROWAN: I hope so.

JAZZA: —iterations. It sounds like this is going to be—they're going to continue making these I guess they're called Knives Out Mysteries now.

ROWAN: Benoit Blanc mysteries. I will not rest until Daniel Craig has been in enough of these to eclipse James Bond. I want people to refer to like his big, they'll be like, Daniel Craig Nova, his big franchise working Knives Out. Like that's what I want. That's my dream.

JAZZA: Oh for me it's—I'm sorry, It's for me, he's always the love interest in Tomb Raider.

ROWAN: Okay, you know what, that's also fair.

JAZZA: Thank you so much. He—he really was a clear awakening for me in his own little way.

ROWAN: Like a boy.

JAZZA: Shall we go with in and actually talk about this movie?

ROWAN: Let's do it.

[theme]

JAZZA: So we are introduced—should we do like a breakdown of the suite of characters in this

ROWAN: Oh, there was so many of them. Yeah, we'll do a very quick rundown.

JAZZA: So we have—we don't really need to do an introduction to Benoit Blanc.

ROWAN: He needs no introduction, Jazza.

JAZZA: Literally. So Kate Hudson plays a successful fashion model who has now become an influencer, who has a sweatpants business that blew up during lockdown. Then we have Claire who is played by Kathryn Hahn, who is—was Angela All Along, that actress.

ROWAN: Uh, Agatha.

JAZZA: Agatha All Along.

ROWAN:

JAZZA: It was—that was the overarching twist of the military who plays a congresswoman or Senate—

ROWAN: Politician.

JAZZA: Uh, politician person.

ROWAN: politician person.

JAZZA: Dave Bautista who plays a men's rights activist Twitch streamer. Hit too close to home there. Thank you very much. We have—

ROWAN: And then Madelyn Cline plays his girlfriend's question mark. Like stuck on that feminist, like own candy, Whiskey.

JAZZA: Yeah. Which is what I want to call a child that I have at some point.

ROWAN: Okay, we need to stop you procreating.

JAZZA: Maybe. We have Lionel who is a clever science person.

ROWAN: Clever science.

JAZZA: Yeah. Clever science.

ROWAN: Leslie Odom Jr. plays, who I know.

JAZZA: Janelle Monae then plays Andy/Helen.

ROWAN: We'll come to that later.

JAZZA: We'll come to that twist.

ROWAN: And then finally Jessica Henwick is Peg, who is Birdie's sort of long-suffering assistant, loyal assistant. I think she was described as in all of the

JAZZA: Who's leaned in too—too hard to Birdie's, to Birdie's career. And then finally the man who's trying to bring them all together, played by Edward Norton is a guy called Miles Bron. Miles Bron is the Elon Musk of this movie.

ROWAN: Yeah. I mean, he's just Elon Musk. Yeah.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And I—I people have commented on this, but I also love the fact that Rian Johnson must have been seeing all of this shit with Elon Musk pop off and being like—

JAZZA: Excellent.

ROWAN: I cannot believe that I made this movie at such a specific time that is being released just after all this Twitter nonsense has happened. But essentially, Miles is this like billionaire genius founder of this tech company Alpha. That's incredible. This movie is set during COVID. Specifically, May 2020.

JAZZA: Which I love.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Actually, because I don't—I think many productions that happened during lockdown have gone tried to maintain continuity and make it—and make stuff that doesn't happened, the fact that it was made in locked down. I really liked that we have kind of like—I guess this will be—this will eventually be a period piece.

ROWAN: Well, what's—what's particularly interesting to me? So this is like a classic setup of a murder mystery, right? It's like mysterious invitation, everyone gets this invitation to come to this private island, like, absolutely classic. And this invitation is this series of puzzles in this invitation box. And all of these people do know each other. Oftentimes, when—when people are invited, it's all strangers.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: But in this one, they know each other. So they will just call each other and they're like crowdsourcing, the—the solving of this puzzle. And eventually, they get to this invitation, and they all decide to show up. And it's—what's really interesting is that you get a little hint at all of their characters. You see them in their everyday life when they get these puzzles, and how they choose to solve it, or whether or not they have like, sort of intellectual smarts, or social smarts, or not, as the case may be in a lot of cases. And then we get almost like a microcosm of that exact rundown again when they arrive, and you see what kind of masks they're wearing.

JAZZA: Yeah. I really enjoyed that.

ROWAN: Which I adored. So it was like Benoit Blanc is wearing this very fashionable mask, which matches his outfit, very cute and—

JAZZA: It matches his neckerchief, made of the same material—

ROWAN: Exactly.

JAZZA: But actually, probably not very—it wasn't like the right level of mask for—

ROWAN: Exactly. Although it was in May. So at that point, it's like I guess that's what we use. Whereas Lionel the scientist is using the actual proper—

JAZZA: Yes, medical mask.

ROWAN: —Medical mask and it fits properly. Claire, the politician is wearing a mask that does have ways of adjusting it, but she simply hasn't. And so she's constantly having to pull it up.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And it gave me like the ick because I was like, Oh, I—I've seen so many people do that like that is a thing that I have witnessed of people, essentially wearing a useless mask because it's constantly falling down and then—

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: Sort of make like a slight effort to pull it back up again. And you've got Peg who has a disposable medical mask, which considering that she's flown in with Birdie who is wearing—

JAZZA: Who's literally wearing like a fishnet on her face.

ROWAN: Which—

JAZZA: A bejeweled golden fishnet. I love this as like you learn everything about the character. We've also had a nod to this when they're on the phone to one another. And Birdie is solving the mystery— the mystery box it like in the middle of a party, and somebody goes, are you at a party at this locked down? And Birdie goes, oh, yeah, but they're all in my pod. And there's like hundreds of people around. Very, very good.

ROWAN: Which I love. But I—but I think like people have pointed out the fact that there's—so this question mark is obviously a reference to Lana Del Rey

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Identical map.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: But Peg having a medical mask, a lot of people suggested like she was at the party as well, and wasn't wearing masks. So it looks like the kind of mask that you'll be given if you hadn't got one, and someone in like the airport or like, was like you need to wear this and she was like—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Okay, I guess. So she puts it on, it works fine. But Kate Hudson's like, don't worry, I already have one. And I think that this is all like really, just so and then obviously, like, Dave Bautista's character, and like Whiskey are wearing no masks.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. to this.

ROWAN: Incredible. Also, Andi turns up isn't wearing a mask, which I think is interesting, because I don't necessarily think that, that is a comment on her, like COVID awareness or interest because she is also a scientist. I think it's more the idea that she wants this entrance and to everyone see her face.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: Which makes even more sense when you know about like the twist afterward, that this big sort of like, It's me moment happens because we do see earlier on that character is wearing a mask when she goes to and all this stuff. So it's clearly like a thing that she does normally. So yeah, that's our rundown of characters and—and them getting to this dock where they get met by Ethan Hawke, who was playing Miles's assistant in one scene, just to spray them in the throat and be like, don't worry about COVID, It's fine. No masks needed. Implying that there is this, you know, billionaires figured out.

JAZZA: Yeah, there's this throat shot vaccine thing

ROWAN: Yeah, and he's like, I'm just gonna keep this to myself.

JAZZA: I remember what was it at the time, it was like hot water. You were meant to drink lots of tea, and that would kill the COVID.

ROWAN: Oh yeah, that would kill the COVID.

JAZZA: Good time. I have called this First Act, by the way. Don't worry, They're in my pod.

ROWAN: Oh God. That it was just enough COVID. the island it's like—

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: It's a—we figured—

JAZZA: They're literally are in the pod.

ROWAN: We—we did this. It's fine. You're not a part of that. I did—I really love that. And one of the other things we get at this point is we see Benoit in his home life.

JAZZA: Oh.

ROWAN: For a scene—

JAZZA: Uh-huh.

ROWAN: We flashback to the scene and find out more about it. But we see him playing Among Us. Again, just aggressively pandemic vibes with some celebrity guests. I'm obsessed. So Angela, Angela Lansbury, because why not.

ROWAN: The gay— the gay clues are really

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Which is fun because it's also like connections between them, as well as to like just Benoit knowing all these famous people because they are playing themselves. They don't seem like characters. So like Angela Lansbury was Mrs. Lovett in 2012, for example, I'm very gay, so I knew that. And also who was going to be in Rian Johnson's next project, which is a detective show. So she herself is like playing a detective.

JAZZA: I can't wait.

ROWAN: I love her so much. she's straight what a—

JAZZA: I know, what a waste.

ROWAN: And so we see him like in the bath, he's clearly kind of odds with himself because he can't—he clearly like at this point, there's no mysteries to solve. Everyone's inside—

JAZZA: There's just the mystery of the

ROWAN: And he's going slowly crazy co— a copy of Kane's jaw bone is on the floor.

JAZZA: Of cou—I knew that you were going to notice a fucking book reference. Of course.

ROWAN: Which is so funny that he's like solving Kane's Jawbone, because he's like, so bored. And he's got his like laptop in the bath, and he's got little fares on. And he's just the absolute classic picture of like the detective—

JAZZA: You know that he's a prune from the belly button down.

ROWAN: Oh, truly.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: I need—he's like I need a case. Like, again, a classic start-to-work detective, like story. And so he also has gotten one of these boxes. And so we get to the island. And what we think is a classic story of everyone's been invited by Miles to play this murder mystery, to solve his murderer.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Has a little twist in it, because we find out that Benoit was not actually invited. So he has got this box.

JAZZA: Just rocked up. World's most famous detective.

ROWAN: World's most famous detective. So if someone has given him this mysterious box, who is it? We—who wo—we maybe— we'll never find out, we will find out. And so the detecting begins as they all get onto this island and

JAZZA: Well—well, is very excited about the—the happy accident that Benoit has arrived because what he has planned later on the island with all of his guests, is a murder mystery party.

ROWAN: Well, this is it to solve his murder.

JAZZA: It almost looks like it's—it's deliberate that he's invited the most famous detective in the world to come to his—to his party. But we soon find out

ROWAN: See if he can solve this, this crazy mystery written by Gillian Flynn, which was—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: I laughed so hard at that

JAZZA: Let's just say it is not fatal.

ROWAN: But there is also another wrench in the plan. What's a metaphor?

JAZZA: Another— Well, now I—

ROWAN: Another brick in the wall.

JAZZA: Another—another kick in the teeth.

ROWAN: Oh, kick in the teeth. But there's another thing that's a little bit off, which is that Andi Cassandra brand.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Andy she's known, also has turned up, which, I guess people didn't expect to happen because she—there's been recently been a court case it turns out.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Where that Miles is one, where he has proven that he is the rightful CEO and owner of this big company Alpha and that he came up with the idea for it. And that Andy in fact has kind of been ousted as the kind of ex-CEO. And so they definitely didn't think she was going to turn up at this fun little island. They were like why—why is she here? This is awkward. We all used to be friends but she—

JAZZA: And every—and everyone's kind of like doing little jabs at her being like

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Calm and all of that.

ROWAN: Like this is very weird. And I think also we get the scene that we've seen her in, everyone else when we said everyone had been solving the mystery together of this puzzle box, the only two people we kind of don't see really doing that are Benoit, we don't see him opening this box at all. And Andy who we see in like a just smash it up, just smashed this box to hell and to get invite out of it, which I very much enjoyed and it turns out that towel in the hair, I was like very specific choice to have. As like what does this mean, towel in the hair? It's actually very relevant later on.

JAZZA: Is it?

ROWAN: Yeah, because she's—because her hair, you can't see whose hair is. Because you don't—need to now know which

JAZZA: Oh that is clever. Okay. So they go up to this Glass Onion, after which this is named like a bit it.

ROWAN: It's literally—

JAZZA: A Glass Onion.

ROWAN: A Glass Onion.

JAZZA: Literally

ROWAN: And figuratively.

JAZZA: Yeah. And they're getting ready for dinner. Before that, we see a couple of conflicts that are seeded. We start to think as a viewer could they, but we know a merge is gonna happen. Could they want to murder Miles? So Peg the assistant of Birdie is really worried about a PR statement about this, the sweatpants that is going to be released. We don't know too much about that yet. And we also see that Whiskey. The girlfriend—supposed girlfriend, flirty person of—

ROWAN: Of Duke.

JAZZA: —of Duke, played by Dave Bautista, the men's rights activist, is doing some big flirting with Miles, oh dear. So maybe there's some kind of like—

ROWAN: Jealousy, all active passion.

JAZZA: Jealous happening there. So as they're sitting down for dinner, we—yeah, I have of course, a nice long monologue from Miles where he shows off the fact that he has rented the Mona Lisa for a couple of weeks.

ROWAN: Yeah, no one's in the Louvre, that's shut down.

JAZZA: Yeah, literally no way

ROWAN: Get over to my place and private island.

JAZZA: And we are shown that it has a really sensitive safety mechanism so that even when somebody's phone goes off, it all shuts down. But Miles has managed to convince them to build in a safety release, to just turn the safety glass off.

ROWAN: I wonder if checkov’s Mona Lisa, or

JAZZA: Checks off Mona Lisa.

ROWAN: We'll be coming back soon.

JAZZA: And he also reveals this, there's—there's too much—too many layers to this film. But I guess that's kind of the whole point.

ROWAN: It's an Onion.

JAZZA: And you just can't see the center. There's this new technology that he has called Klear, which is going to provide limitless energy, apparently, but it has hydrogen. The science guy and the politician lady are worried about it.

ROWAN: Yeah, no, shit. Hey, what if the fuel was made of hydrogen? That seems safe.

JAZZA: And they keep on saying, Hindenburg. Cause obviously hydrogen is very flammable. This is where we go into Act Two for me.

ROWAN: Yeah.

[theme]

ROWAN: So dear listener, you may have been thinking, while you've been consuming this podcast, well, this seems like fun. They're just joking around about a film that they enjoyed. I would love to do that too. But you're not entirely sure how to get into podcasting, you're not entirely sure what goes into it, what you need, what are the typical, like pitfalls that you have to avoid? Well, Multitude is offering classes for podcasters by podcasters for people like you. You'll learn from weekly instruction, hands-on homework, and lots of valuable feedback from your instructor and classmates in our online classroom. We are starting out this first round of classes with three different classes that you can take. They all have very fancy titles. So here they are, number one, Sustainable Podcasting, Refining Structure, and Workflow, So Your Show Works with you, by the wonderful Eric Silver. We also have Podcasts Mixing and Mastering for non-engineers by Brandon Grugle. And How to Make A Living As A Digital Creator by Amanda McLoughlin. Truly something for everyone. You've got your structural work processes, you've got your technical audio stuff, and you've got you're making a living, like getting rid of the bullshit financial stuff as well. So maybe your New Years' resolution wants to you know, try new things, this might be a great way for you to kick off 2023 by working on a new project, or will be a great gift for an aspiring podcaster that you know. You can learn more about the dates, curriculum, and technical details, or just go and register today by going to multitude.productions/classes, or checking out the posts on the Multitude social media feeds. And just before we get back into the episode, we want to say a massive thank you to our sponsor yet again, Squarespace. Amazing returning sponsor to the podcast. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, Squarespace is like all in one place. Everything is there, it's the only thing you'll need to do just that. You can use it to build the site, obviously. But you can also do things like set up an online shop or connect with your audience. We use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website. I used it to make my own personal website. So I'm a loyal Squarespace user for a number of reasons. One, I have things constantly going on, overload of projects that I need to link to in the site and to talk about on the website, including all my social media platforms. And Squarespace lets you not only link to your social media but also connect it so you can display posts from your profiles on the site directly. There are also analytics and insights because sometimes it's great to dig into a bit of data, you know what I mean? So if you're someone who wants to, like grow your brand, if you're wanting to build a website for a business, then it can figure out, you know, where are you getting your site visits from? Where are sales coming from? What keywords are being used to find you? And all of that stuff is so useful. And they also have really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. As much as I might wish to be an artist, I'm simply am not. And so the designer function is an absolute lifesaver, which means that you have like templates that you can follow. It's very easy, the people who are actually good at design have done the work for you. You just have to slot in all of the stuff that you need for your website, including making sure that the website doesn't look like rubbish on mobile that is taken care of for you automatically, which is very useful. So if that sounds like something that's up your alley, then check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Queer Movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Okay, back to the show and the Glass Onion.

[theme]

ROWAN: That also is where I'm going into Act Two. We've kind of got this set up in Act One, we know all of the players, were signed to get some of the conflicts, and it's time for the murder mystery.

JAZZA: And it's solved in about 20 seconds—

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: —by Benoit Blanc.

ROWAN: I was really excited for this because I was like when a scene like that happens, and a character is being smart, you know, it's either gonna go really well or really badly for them. And I was like, I didn't know whether the kicker was going to be that he's saying all this—Ben was saying all this stuff, and then he's wrong, or that Ben was saying all this stuff, and then he's right. And I think that this is where we get a sense of like how Rian Johnson and like, wants you to feel about Benoit. Because I think that in the first movie, in Knives Out, he has this element of cluelessness because we—not to—I'm gonna spoil anything for Knives Out. But we as an audience are not following him as a detective—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —In that movie. We are following a different character. And so we see how that character is messing with his investigation, and how many things he misses. And he does eventually figure out the end. But I feel like coming out of that movie, I was like, well, it wasn't his movie, so we don't know how we're meant to necessarily feel about him when we—whether we are meant to believe he's very competent because he does seem to have solved all this stuff, that we've just seen him need a lot of help to solve it.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Or whether we're meant to think that he like needs other people, and he's a bit full of himself, and he has that arrogant detective element to him. And so I thought this was a really interesting way of being like, no, he's just some—he's just some guy who really likes mysteries. Like he's really excited about the fact that he's solving. He's not necessarily trying to show off, but it's like, here's this thing, he's excited

JAZZA: But also we've had that built up over, he's just like looking for any kind of detective mystery stimulation.

ROWAN: Yeah. And he—and he's so excited. He's like, thanking Miles for how like exciting this was like, oh my gosh, like yes, this is amazing. I found all your clues, like thank you so much. This is to him is like really exciting. This was not the energy that Miles was hoping that that would happen at this particular murder mystery. He kind of thought was going to take all weekend to solve, and then even then maybe they wouldn't. And he manages to solve actually before Miles is fake killed, which is incredible. Truly a triumph. We—we love that.

JAZZA: Yeah. And Miles stands there with the—a look of a man completely defeated. And then the mechanism in his chest that is meant to show the the fake blood come out, splats all over the table. The moment that I really, really enjoyed.

ROWAN: And his face is just blank the entire time with outrage.

JAZZA: A Blanc, if you will.

ROWAN: Wow.

JAZZA: Yep. So there's a big fight around and each anemones character. People have really pissed off that she's there. It all comes to a head and we see her storm off into the other parts of the visual that there I guess. Then suddenly, Duke who is the men's rights activist, he collapses after taking a sip of his glass. Everybody starts to kind of like point the finger at Andi. They find out that Duke's pistol is missing. He's been carrying around this pistol shooting off because he's a men's rights activist. And then suddenly, because Miles thought it would be a good thing when they were doing the murder mystery. All of the power goes off while there's absolute chaos. Blanc goes outside to find Andi to tell her kind of like what has happened because—

ROWAN: She's missed all of it.

JAZZA: She's missed all of the drama. Yeah, the— the death of Duke. And then somebody shoots Andi.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: She collapses to the floor, and then—

ROWAN: And she dies.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: She died.

JAZZA: In quotations, she

ROWAN: As far as we're concerned as this point, she's dead.

JAZZA: She's dead. And then we go into a really long, extended flashback sequence.

ROWAN: Yeah. Blanc's like, I know who killed Andi. And you're like, oh, okay, he's doing it again. this is real.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Or is it? Yeah, so this is really interesting. But there's also like, again, these little scenes that come up where we're just learning a little bit more about the characters. So for example, Miles mix everyone there's special drinks with like glasses, which have their name engraved on it apart from Peg, aka, like the worker who gets a red solo cup too. And then Peg writes her own name on it in Sharpie later on. We're like, oh Peg, which is just this idea of like, the kind of contempt that he has for people who are like, below him, I guess?

JAZZA: Yeah. It just reinforces asshole state.

ROWAN: Yes, truly. We also have this scene where he makes this speech about being a disrupter.

JAZZA: Oh, my God. Yeah.

ROWAN: Because they know—

JAZZA: I know too many of these people, who an ironically make those speeches.

ROWAN: Disgusting. Because they talk about being disruptors. And again—

JAZZA: What's the thing that links us all together? What are the

ROWAN: So he says about the idea of like, you know, it's okay to you know, maybe someone will be brave enough to break a small thing. And then it like, you know, people will get behind it, because they want to see that thing broken and then you break more things but are you going to be the person that breaks the biggest thing that people are going to hate you for? It's almost like so the finale of this movie is going to be that exact thing. And that potentially, Andi/Helen is going to be revealed as the actual disrupter. Who did break the small thing, and then it—we'll get to that later. But yeah, we have these little bits that might be foreshadowing, and we also see a little bit of walking around, and snoopy, snoopy snooping that might be happening with Benoit.

JAZZA: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly.

ROWAN: And then yeah, it's just to say we get back into a flashback to reveal what the hell actually happened.

JAZZA: So Andi's dead.

ROWAN: Yes. Spoil that, spoil that. Not—not on the step.

JAZZA: Not on the step.

ROWAN: He actually died a while ago.

JAZZA: Yeah, she's been dead a while. Everybody said it was suicide, and it happened about a week before the trip. But of course, she has a twin sister.

ROWAN: Helen.

JAZZA: So the twin sister then goes to Benoit Blanc, because he's a world-famous detective with one of these mystery boxes in order to get hire him to investigate her sister's death. We then get a flashback and a flashback as Helen. Oh, my brain,

ROWAN: Andi.

JAZZA: No, no, no. So Helen tells Benoit, Andi's origin story with this group of disruptors.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: So Andy had this group of people that were all down on their luck, all in their 30s a little bit washed up, but close to home. Alright, so let's calm down everyone. And then she introduces Miles to the group. And then everything starts to like slowly turn around. And as things start to turn around, Andi then comes up with the principles of this company Alpha that she lost the rights to in this court case, and that Miles is now the CEO of. Do you know what is on this napkin?

ROWAN: No. So I was like, I know that I could pause it and try and read it. But people much cleverer than me will have done that, and actually, be able to explain whatever weird science shits on the napkin.

JAZZA: May it's just a buzzword.

ROWAN: I love it. It's like synergy.

JAZZA: So it says, free app, code, delivery, exponential growth, worldwide accessibility diversification—

ROWAN: Oh my God.

JAZZA: —And then crypto scalability.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: Crypto management, accessibility, scalability, development, timestamp, I don't know. And then manpower.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And that's what this entire thing has been about.

JAZZA: I just love the

ROWAN: I just love they chose to show the napkin because they didn't have to show what was on the napkin.

JAZZA: No, they didn't at all.

ROWAN: At all. Incredible. And so essentially not only has she like Miles outed her as the CEO but the—all of the people who are at this—

JAZZA: They all testified.

ROWAN: Like all the friends, they did perj—they did a perjury.

JAZZA: They purged her.

ROWAN: They purged her and they did a perjury in the court. They like

JAZZA: Oh, oh, they poked it. Got it.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: Is that perjury?

ROWAN: I don't know how to do firms. So they—

JAZZA: They committed perjury.

ROWAN: They committed perjury. They did a perjury. And we're essentially in court, they said that Miles had been the one that came up with the ideas for Alpha, that they all saw him in this bar, the Glass Onion that they frequented together writing on this napkin, and it was all Miles, Miles, Miles Miles, because he clearly had power over all of them, whether that was – Bankrolling them.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: He'd helped them. And he also had the power to destroy them. So basically, their greed kind of was definitely an influence in this.

JAZZA: The problem was and the reason that Andi wasn't able to claim her rights over this company, is because she didn't have the napkin. Or so she thought because after she lost the rights of the company, she ended up finding it in a bookcase. No, in one of—

ROWAN: Maybe—

JAZZA: —In one of her diaries.

ROWAN: Yeah. Maybe she should like flick, had a flick through them.

JAZZA: Yeah, she should have looked through some of her previous works. And she ends up finding it. Doesn't take a photo of the napkin. Oh, no, as evidence that would have been useful. She puts the napkin in an envelope, then takes a selfie with the envelope, not the napkin, and then sends that email to all of the people saying, hey, guess what? I've got you all fucked now. And because of that, we—that is why she's dead. A mess.

ROWAN: Yeah, it was—it was said to be suicide, but essentially someone put her in her car and turned like blocked off the exhaust, and so free and kind of like staged it as a suicide. But Helen, her sister like convinced, knowing that she had like almost one that she could turn all this around. What—why would she do that? It doesn't make sense. She must have been killed.

JAZZA: Benoit ends up convincing Helen to go to this private island, dressed and disguised as her sister—

ROWAN: Because at this point—

JAZZA: Despite the fact he says, they're probably going to try and kill you. I can't be held responsible.

ROWAN: Because nobody knows her sister's dead at this point, other than—

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: —the killer who will know as Benoit points out.

JAZZA: Of course.

ROWAN: As soon as she turns up, it's going to be like this person is going to know that you are not this, but because they know that they've killed you.

JAZZA: And then we then see the first half of the movie from Helen's perspective. So she's going around finding motives and objectives for each of the people they're on the island, and find legitimate like motifs for everybody who is there. So everyone could have wanted to kill Andi.

ROWAN: And it's also very funny, because sometimes when we really see what's happened earlier in the movie, we just pan out slightly. And she's just been there the whole time.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: So when Benoit was snooping, she was snooping between the hundred different bush.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: Which I really enjoyed. And also we've seen the—she makes a reference to the fact that like, you know, the motive means opportunity, like a little grid, and she says, oh, this is really like, clue you must be really good at Clue. And Ben was like, I hate that game. It's—I'm so bad at dumb things. Like I—like running around, like checking boxes. And that's like exactly what they end up doing during this. And that she really helps with, and I think that again, this is a pattern that happens within like Knives Out. And this one where he's sort of helped by this woman who almost is like, more competent than him in a lot of ways, or like seems to like catch connections or like, but he's not trying to take credit for those actions. He's like, if he solves it himself like he does with the original Gillian Flynn murder mystery. He's excited that he managed to do it. But if he needs to rely on someone else, it's not like a Holmes, Watson situation, where Holmes is just like, I'm so much smarter than you and go fuck yourself.

JAZZA: Yeah. He's like, you're actually quite good at it.

ROWAN: It's like, yes, yes, it's worked together. So like, the fact that he immediately ran when the lights went out to try and find Andi/Helen, is this idea of like, he does have this genuine sort of care. And he does actually care about like, he's not going to lie to her about it being dangerous. He's going to—like all of these things to me, I'm really like the move away from the sort of either hard-boiled detective or the like, emotionless genius or like all this stuff. I like the idea that he's allowed to be like caring. And just like a nice dude.

JAZZA: Hearing you say that reminds me of the Doctor Who, doctor-companion relationship that often happens. And I quite like—

ROWAN: You're right.

JAZZA: —that he's getting—

ROWAN: That is the energy.

JAZZA: Yeah. And I think that this is what seems to be developing. When Benoit Blanc has like a character, and hopefully we get to see that as that con—as this continues. Where he has an assistant that kind of like cycles in, and they all—they've all so far, about something that he lacks.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: And like, compliment him. And that's something that you see very often with the Doctor Who kind of like energy as well.

ROWAN: Oh shit. Now you've cracked it, you've cracked the code.

JAZZA: I've cracked the code. So we get to the point where Helen, as we know now has been shot. We thought that she's dead. But no, of course, a pocketbook stopped the bullet.

ROWAN: Classic.

JAZZA: What the fuck was that pocketbook made out of?

ROWAN: You know, Andi's diary, they hold many secrets Napkins. I thought for a second she just bought a bulletproof vest because she was like the people will kill me on this island. Why would I not bring a bulletproof vest, I'm not an idiot. But instead, she was like, don't worry, my dead sis would protect me. And so we realized like that they discovered the motives and the little flick book.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And all of them seem to have had a motive to kill Andi, to get rid of Andi. So like Klear this energy source.

JAZZA: The hydrogen

ROWAN: Hydrogen energy source like it needs to work because, Lionel, for example, the scientist has sort of backed it within his work for the company, Claire, the politician has agreed to like build a factory for it within her constituent area. We have this PR statement that we heard about earlier from Birdie is about the use of sweatshops within the company, which leads to the incredible exchange between Birdie and Peg, where Peg like wait, do you think sweatshops are where they make sweatpants? And Birdie looks at like, yes? And Peg's like, oh my god.

JAZZA: To be fair If you didn't know?

ROWAN: That might be what you assume you're like, oh, yeah, they said that they were going to use sweatshops. It just made sense to me. And so there is you know, Miles has put money into this company, and is making Birdie take the fall by doing this PR statement. Duke is like seeing that Miles'sTwitch is getting—

JAZZA: His YouTube channel—his YouTube channel is dying. He needs to be taken off. He needs to be basically be put on Alpha news.

ROWAN: Yes. He wants to get in—get into the news network.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And Whiskey is like trying to persuade Miles for that to happen, but he doesn't like if you know, if he crosses Miles, then it's not going to happen. He needs to try and prove himself. So all of them have this motive to like prove themselves to Miles by taking out Andi who's going to be this really big threat because she's about to expose the napkin for real. And so yeah, all just it—it's all looking and not—not like an easy solve if if we're looking for one motive from one person.

JAZZA: Yeah, exactly. This is where I ended the Second Act.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: And I don't think we named the Second Act, but just in case you didn't get, it was the party and its aftermath.

ROWAN: Yes. I mean longtime listeners to the podcast will know, this is always an act. New-time listeners. Every gay movie that you ever watch will have a party and its aftermath. We will find one—one of them has had every single

JAZZA: And then I actually—when you think about it isn't life just one big party and its aftermath?

ROWAN: Sure.

JAZZA: Think about it. Think about it.

ROWAN: Yeah.

[theme]

JAZZA: My final act, I've called the reveal, because this is the classic. Yeah.

ROWAN: That is very inventive of you.

JAZZA: I—I thank you so much. Hey, I—did really well on the first one. So Helen is not dead. They fake her death. So she puts hot sauce on her chest—

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: —where the bullet wound would be.

ROWAN: Where blood would be.

JAZZA: Everyone's like, oh my god.

ROWAN: Another Check offs, hot sauce again.

JAZZA: Checkov’s hot sauce.

ROWAN: There's a lot of little of little thing—

JAZZA: Checkov’s was everywhere in this movie.

ROWAN: Yeah, truly. There's a lot of just little random things that crop up as like a little joke that you're like, okay, this is gonna be relevant later. But it's interesting to just find out how. It's like, oh, of course, the hot sauce is blood. Why not?

JAZZA: And everybody goes back into the Glass Onion. And the—

ROWAN: Snooping in the office.

JAZZA: Snooping in the office. Oh, yeah.

ROWAN: While Blanc is like, let me reveal everything to you people.

JAZZA: Blanc starts unpacking everything, and reveals that dun dun dun, it was miles all along.

ROWAN: For both bloody murders.

JAZZA: For both of them. For both the murder of Andy and Duke, who I'm sure you've forgotten about because I had at this point. So he's the men's rights—

ROWAN: Activists, every single time. I think that we remember that Duke is the men's rights activist at this point.

JAZZA: No, I wouldn't want to assume.

ROWAN: So Miles knew that Andi had the napkin because it turns out he uses fax. Again, checkov’s, fax machine. And his fax shown simultaneously to every fax machine that he owns all over the world. And he got the email, fax over to him. So he's like, okay, well, yeah. And that's again—the Glass Onion, it's so obvious. There seems like there's layers, but it's completely transparent. Yeah, obviously the one he was going to kill it. Not some second person who was trying to do it for Miles. Miles just did it. That was just Miles's thing. And again, Chekhov's blue car, isn't like, which means that the reason why he called Duke, is because Duke saw miles leaving—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —Andi's. And at the time, obviously, they don't know Andi's dead, so Miles wouldn't necessarily have thought anything of it, but tells Miles at the party just before he dies. Oh my god, there's a news article on his phone.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Says, oh, shit, Andi's dead. And Miles knows it's just a matter of time

JAZZA: Google notifications.

ROWAN: Truly, again. Oh, everything always come in full circle And so Miles is like think quick. I gotta get rid of this guy who's the witness to seeing me drive away from this house. The only person who saw me in my extremely ostentatious car and put some—put some little pineapple in his drink.

JAZZA: And Duke doesn't fuck with pineapple.

ROWAN: He doesn't fuck with pineapple.

JAZZA: And literally dies

ROWAN: Definitely allergic to pineapple. I don't fuck with pineapple, but it just makes my mouth feel weird. You know what I mean? Wouldn't kill me if I had said I don't fuck—

JAZZA: What would kill you just for future reference?

ROWAN: A knife. A knife. for future reference. But you know well, yeah, I'll deal with it when that time comes. And also Duke at this point, tries to use it to his advantage and be like, hey, how about that Alpha News? Am I right? Remember how I saw you driving away from a crime scene? And so Miles poisons him with pineapple, takes Duke's gun, uses it to shoot Helen. He's like well done me, double murder. No— now I'm very rich. No one will ever catch me.

JAZZA: Yeah. So at this point, Helen has been upstairs and has found the the red envelope with a napkin which was like hidden in Miles's office books.

ROWAN: Because he's an idiot.

JAZZA: Because he's an idiot, which we find out later.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Helen walks down, takes out the napkin, and shows it to everybody. Has she taken a photo of the napkin? No.

ROWAN: No.

JAZZA: Has anybody—

ROWAN: Why would anyone take a photo

JAZZA: No. But she goes haha. Look the napkin that proves that my dead sister came up with everything. And then Miles goes up to her with like one of those blowtorch things and completely destroys it with—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: —with fire.

ROWAN: Yeah. This napkin that as we have—as you have mentioned, has some very important could never be thought of by anyone else.

JAZZA: Scalable crypto.

ROWAN: Scale that crypto. So essentially the evidence has gone against Miles. And it's a very ransom from Knives Out moment. Again not to spoil that maybe, but I just have. So what do you have, a burned-up napkin?

JAZZA: Yeah, and that's it. And everybody seems to be on Miles's side, they don't want to fuck with this. However Helen then start, it looks like she's just having a little bit of a— she's having a moment. She goes around, start smashing all of the glass. I don't—I still don't really understand why she's—she's throwing all the glass?

ROWAN: Well, if you remember the disruptor's speech from earlier.

JAZZA: Okay.

ROWAN: It's like first of all, you destroy a little thing. And everyone gets behind you. Hence why everyone suddenly is like— Yeah. Fuck Miles. But when they—and then they smashed they just smart start smashing more and more

JAZZA: Right.

ROWAN: And everyone else is like laughing because they're like this is fun. We're just destroying stuff for no reason other than it being fun. Whereas Andi, they're like, /Helen, the actual disrupter is like that bit in his speech where he says, and then you destroy the one thing, the big thing that no one wants you to destroy, and they'll hate you for it.

JAZZA: And it's the Mona Lisa.

ROWAN: The Mona Lisa.

JAZZA: Yeah, so with all of the Chekov's release mechanism, Helen starts building a bonfire from all of the stuff that she's destroyed.

ROWAN: Of course she does.

JAZZA: And that obviously triggers the Mona Lisa's security mechanism. So she throws some of the Klear, which is the hydrogen stuff into the bonfire, which then gets sucked up into the vents and creates a big explosion, everything explodes, everything breaks. And then it's not really a fire, the scene looks like it's three flame throwers kind of like blowing either side of the Mona Lisa. And then Helen runs towards the release mechanism, shoves Miles out of the way, releases the mechanism, and then burns the Mona Lisa, and the Mona Lisa is now dead.

ROWAN: I really like so—so the—the bit that we missed out slightly which is interesting because again, it's like a Benoit Blanc Knives Out mystery. And we were like, we just brush over the bit where he sort of like gave her the Klear in order to

JAZZA: Oh, yes, yeah.

ROWAN: But I think that's interesting, right? That it wasn't like his triumphant ending where he's like, and he—and I solved the mystery and that's the end. The ending is her getting this like vengeance. And so he gives her the Klear, like, puts in her hand, and at first, you don't see what he's given her. Although immediately, I was like, pointing at the screen. And my family were like, what—what are you doing, and I'm like, in my head, I was like Chekov's Klear. It's Chekov's Klear because earlier on shown and given a nugget, and he'd never given it, we've never seen him give it back.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And so I was like it's Chekov's fucking Klear. Benoit gives her Andi's the glass with Andi engraved on it, and says, all I can do I—there's nothing I can do, like, basically implying you—evidence destroyed, and also, this man is so powerful that he would get away with it. Like, so he gives her the glass and says, all I can give you is courage with alcohol. And that gives us something else, the Klear and like, and a reminder of why your sister walked away in the first place. And then she obviously decides what she's going to do. And this again, is really interesting, because these movies are like—there was not a detective who solves it and then gives it to the police like haha, police, you're not smart enough for this. He's like, the police won't do shit. He's like, the justice system is fucked, like the police can kind of hang around. But ultimately, like revenge and justice is a moral justice rather than like a justice system justice.

JAZZA: And a poetic justice.

ROWAN: And a poetic justice. And so he's like, I'm gonna give you the tools for you to be able to create your own justice to the like, well, the two women that he's kind of helped Martha and Helen. And this is exactly the same as kind of the energy where he's like, essentially, I'm going to leave now. I'm telling you, from my point of view, as a detective, like, I believe you, but we don't have the evidence and there's nothing like this man is too powerful. Here's some tools that you might use to destroy him in another way, which essentially is like, there is almost nothing that will take this man down. But like, the reputation of his big discovery, that he is like, killed this woman over, destroys one of the most famous paintings in the entire world, and his own house, like that, 's gonna fuck his company. Like that's gonna destroy everything that he has killed for. And I liked that poetic justice element of this, but it's not just the end doesn't just like look how clever Benoit is.

JAZZA: And most has been saying like one of the things he says as he's introduced earlier is, I want to create something that will be mentioned in the same breath as the Mona Lisa and his name is— life goal.

ROWAN: And then they just smoke cigars on the beach. And then the final shot is of Andi posed like the Mona Lisa on the beach with a like red kind of blood stain looking out with this look that again, is that classic Mona Lisa thing of like, is she smiling, is she serious, is she sad

She's kind of like all of the oh so well. And that is the movie. That's—

JAZZA: Doo doo doo.

ROWAN: That's the Glass Onion. There are so many things like we need to stop now. Because otherwise, we'll go over time. There was so many little—there are so many little details that people have talked about in this movie that like some of them I noticed, and some of them I didn't. So there's like paintings on the wall that foreshadow what's going on. There's a Rothko, which has been hung upside down because Miles is a fucking idiot. And like, he's not even hung these like rich like, it's essentially just like Rian Johnson hates billionaires is the thesis of this movie. He just hates rich people in general. And I love that for him. There's also the fact that Andi, Cassandra, and Helen are like two characters within the story of the Trojan War. And like their story, the Trojan war mirrors what happens in the movie. So like, Cassandra is this seer who is—has a gift of prophecy, but his curse, but no one's ever believed her? And I'm like, yeah, that's literally Andi.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Being like, can you all not see that this man is an idiot who's going to destroy everything, and everyone's like, no, we love him. He's giving us money. And then Helen is—she starts the Trojan War by deserting her husband for the Trojan causing the fall of Troy, essentially bringing down an empire in the same way as her bringing down this like financial and tech empire of Miles Bron. And I just really like, just these little weird details that are almost like little nuggets of they don't mean anything to the story, like you don't need to know them to figure it out or to like, to—

JAZZA: For the depth.

ROWAN: To look out for the depth that it has. It's really interesting to me.

[theme]

ROWAN: So, I think with—we're at the point of which we can—

JAZZA: We're at rainbow flag.

ROWAN: We're at rainbow flags. We are at the point that we are deciding how many stripes of the six-stripe rainbow flag we're gonna give it, and which colors. Jazza, what are you doing? What it—where are you going with this? What did you think at this movie?

JAZZA: So I feel like my duty as a co-host of this podcast, is to think about this as a queer movie.

ROWAN: Yes, I'm happy for you to do that.

JAZZA: This is the Queer Movie Podcast.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And—

ROWAN: I guess.

JAZZA: —And on that criteria, it is—it is a great movie.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: I'm—I'm not as into kind of like this genre as you are. But I really appreciated this movie, it is a fun watch. I don't think it's as good as Knives Out. But I have a bitter taste in my mouth around the queer catching. And so I'm only going to give it two, and I'm going to give it some healing. Because that is supposedly, that's kind of what happened with Helen when she comes back from the dead, but not. And I'm gonna give it some nature because it's got an onion.

ROWAN: That—I feel you're gonna go with a beautiful private island setting, but the onion also is nature.

JAZZA: So those two colors are orange for healing and green for nature.

ROWAN: Stunning. I would agree with you. If we're— judging it as a queer movie., it really is lacking. We decided to do it because of the conversation around it. And because I am hoping that in future Knives Out mystery.

JAZZA: We see more Benoit.

ROWAN: This will be like made explicit, and we'll be able to look back at this and be like, okay, cool. This was like the first time we got introduced to like his husband, and you know, it got continued onwards. And it's—it is actually clear. So I would—I would agree with you that like it—it's very few black, very few stripes in that way. I, however, I'm gonna give this like a four or five for just enjoyment levels for me. I feel like the ADHD for these movies, like it really vibes because it's like, hey, it's fast-paced, there's not a moment where something isn't happening, like, let's go, let's go. And I love that. But I also think I was saying to you that I also didn't enjoy it as much as Knives Out as a standalone like mystery movie. However, I think as a next installment in a series, where we are getting an exploration of these themes and ideas that Rian Johnson seems to be having within these mysteries. And we are learning more about this detective who is like competent, but caring, who is wanting to empower the people who've—are on the side of injustice, like all of these elements without making it about him. Like that, to me is fascinating. And so I think as a continuation of a series that might have more installments, this was great, there's really feel like it furthers that mission rather than being necessarily as strong of a standalone movie as Knives Out was which I think is like stunning. So yeah, I'm gonna say, or the ones I'm gonna give it, sunlight it was on an island. Nature, there's an onion.

JAZZA: There's a yellow and green.

ROWAN: Yes, yellow and green. We're gonna go healing because of yeah, the whole Helen healing thing. We're gonna do Spirit because it's got that cap. It's got that cap. And then if I'm giving like a I'm gonna like four and a half to five. Let's go with harmony simply because people do die in this. So I feel like giving it like—

JAZZA: You're giving it everything but that.

ROWAN: Yeah, everything but bright life, because I feel like she died.

JAZZA: That's really easy.

ROWAN: Yeah, that's all I need to do.

JAZZA: Perfect. Awesome.

JAZZA: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, we ask that you consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join our queer movie club where we do watch along in our Discord every month, but that is the bare minimum. At higher levels, you can also get our movie recommendations and a monthly newsletter with the curation of all of the gay shit that we find on the internet.

ROWAN: Thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us on the highest Patreon tier. you are rainbow parents, and we are so happy to have your support. Thank you so, so much.

JAZZA: Thank , and please make sure that you follow and subscribe to the podcast so that you are notified when our next episode comes out. We have been Jazza John and Rowan Ellis. Were edited by Julia Schifini and are part of Multitude. Find more amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much my darling.

ROWAN: Thank you pod.

JAZZA: Thanks pod. You've be in our pod.

ROWAN: Wow. Byee.

JAZZA: Byee.

The Holiday Sitter (Queer Hallmark)

22 december 2022 | 65 min

It's time for the Christmas episode! In which Rowan and Jazza discuss how Hallmark went from banning gay ads to making their own queer movies in three years flat.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

We are also supported by Dipsea. For audio stories to spice up your alone (or not-so-alone) time, go to dipseastories.com/queermovie for a 30 day free trial.

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

JAZZA: Before we kick off this episode, just want to say a quick thank you so much to Jennifer and Toby who support us at the highest level of the rainbow parent on our Patreon. We love you um with the podcast.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—

ROWAN: And worst—

JAZZA: —in LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I—I am JAZZA: John.

ROWAN: In each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episodes genre is—

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Queer Hallmark.

JAZZA: Ho.Ho.Ho. Today we are going to be talking about how Hallmark, the company that does greeting cards, but also for some reason, also does movies have gone from banning gay ads, to producing queer movies of their own in three years flat? Also, the movie itself, which is called The Holiday Sitter.

ROWAN: But before we get triggered by the mere mention of pancakes as the lead does in this movie, which is a scene. We will be going in. I'm so glad that Jazza has mentioned this in the intro, because we will be diving deep into that particular choice by the director and actor. Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA: Rowan, I may actually have had the gayest month of my life.

ROWAN: Oh, tell me everything.

JAZZA: So I—

ROWAN: Except like, like, tell me everything in about 60 seconds. Yeah, we got to get them on the episode.

JAZZA: Yeah, I could tell you about the fact that I went to a Sugababes concert. And now wear their merch all of the time. I could tell you about the fact that I have moved to New York. But don't worry, there'll be lots of other opportunities—

ROWAN: Stunning.

JAZZA: —to us to be able to do that. I could tell you about the fact that in the last two weeks, I have gone on seven days.

ROWAN: Oh my.

JAZZA: And I'm going on my eighth one this—

ROWAN: With the same—

JAZZA: —Evening.

ROWAN: —person or seven different boy?

JAZZA: No different types of students.

ROWAN: All the—all the dwarfs.

ROWAN: Snow White.

JAZZA: I'm Snow White.

JAZZA: Yeah. But I'm instead going to tell you about the—one of the most embarrassing celebrity encounters I've ever had. When I was saying goodbye to London, one of my final nights out with friends was at the Glory Pub, which is in North London. And we were watching this drag show, and who happens to be beside me, but Bowen Yang from—

ROWAN: No.

JAZZA: SNL and—

ROWAN: No.

JAZZA: —And

ROWAN: You're lying.

JAZZA: And—and Fire Island. Uh no.

ROWAN: I can't believe

JAZZA: It's real.

ROWAN: this story for the pod.

JAZZA: I have— I have been keeping—

ROWAN: That's incredible.

JAZZA: —It for the pod. I obviously it like a couple of people . So this is a look at the 60 seconds. Someone went up to Bowen Yang and said, oh my god, are you Bowen Yang, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay, I can't go over to him now. But then that person went from Bowen Yang to me, and was like are you Jazza John?

ROWAN: No, wait, this exchange?

JAZZA: I don't think so.

ROWAN: Oh my god, I imagine.

JAZZA: Because I was just like, well, this is ridiculous that this happened, because I haven't put it—I've put like one video on the internet in the last year. And then I was like—I genuinely built up the courage to like say hi but like, I just think you're making really good stuff. Keep doing it. So I'm about to leave, and I'm like It's now or never. I go into Bowen Yang, and I go, hey, I think you're making great stuff. And he went, thank you so much. I try my best. And I went, oh, no, don't try your best. Make sure they get their money's worth.

ROWAN: What?Oh, no, this really took so many turns, Jazza.

JAZZA: I don't know. And then I just—and then I just

ROWAN: That, I don't know.

JAZZA: And then—and then he followed me to the bus stop because he was leaving with his friends.

ROWAN: Oh no.

JAZZA: And thank God, he didn't got on the same bus as me. But it was—it was terrible. It was really horrific. And so now we can't be friends, because I'm just going to be replaying that in my head for the rest of my life.

ROWAN: Oh, and like what's so wild is that, you had like an actual professional link to this man that you could have mentioned. This—

JAZZA: Yeah. Oh.

ROWAN: —this fucking podcast, you.

JAZZA: Oh, I'm not saying I've done episodes and reviewed your acting. I'm not telling him that in the midddle of the club.

ROWAN: Yes should have been like, but we could just have been like, really, really love your stuff. I—I am like a film journalist. You can say that, podcaster, that's what you do. And you could have been like—

JAZZA: Okay.

ROWAN: —we—we—we specifically talk about queer movies and we bloody loved Fire Island, and you deserve—

JAZZA: Yeah. No—I.

ROWAN: —everything you got from it.

JAZZA: No.

ROWAN: Because it's true. We did.

JAZZA: So in another—in another universe, he could have been a guest on the podcast, but I think it's that. It's not happening.

ROWAN: Oh don't bring that into the—don't like the worst time and when that didn't happen, because you said just the worst sentence that could have come out of your mouth. Yeah, classic.

JAZZA: Just made no sense. Anyway, what's that gayest thing you did?

ROWAN: Um, I don't really think I can top that at all. What absolute chaos. Oh, I'll tell you what to do—I did, I—I sent my first four chapters and a full outline to my agent of the fiction, like book I'm writing, and she came back and she really, really liked it. And every single comment, there were some actual comments that were useful to the, you know, the writing and everything. But a lot of the comments were just hurt. Like I was clicking on them really nervously. This was a comment where she'll be like, terrible, take this out. But instead, it was just hoping like, low mood, and like, even—even in space, the gays do be doing this. And I'm like, oh, I love you so much. So it was um—I had a really good, good gay feedback from, from my agent on that.

JAZZA: Amazing. Fantastic. I can't wait to read some of your space opera, it's gonna be great.

ROWAN: Well, I mean, now you said that on air, we got Julio, can we clip it? If you don't, you broken the law. That's how this works.

JAZZA: I can't wait to read whatever you're writing.

ROWAN: At least one sentence of it.

[theme]

JAZZA: We are not American. And therefore Hallmark movies aren't really a staple of our culture. Although I did just move to New York. And so I'm a proper New Yorker now. That's why Rowan has been wonderful and gone away, and done some top tier research on what um Hallmark, and why.

ROWAN: I'm gonna get to that in a second. But just to let you know what else be going on in this podcast. It's the same as every episode, in case this is your first time joining. After that, we're going to be reviewing the plot, splitting the film into three acts as we do. Because you know, the three act structure is so universal. As such, we will be spoiling all of this movie. So feel free to watch it if you really want to, and come back to us when you seen it. But to be honest, it—it follows a very classic formula. It's very predictable. So you won't be missing much, like you can already probably guess the plot.

JAZZA: Can I just say the—the depth of meaning in that short pause between you can watch it, and if you want to was profound.

ROWAN: I say what I mean. And I mean, what I say, Jazza.

JAZZA: Without further ado, let's find the funds to defer our flight to Hawaii three times in the week before Christmas and review The Holiday Sitter.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so, Hallmark, we need to talk about Hallmark. Hallmark is one of those brands in the US, which has a very long history. But it's very interesting history that I feel like not a lot of people necessarily know the beginnings of, although you can definitely see the tendrils of what it used to be still in that I would say. So I feel like when people hear the word Hallmark, they think of romcoms. Primarily, they think of the original movies. They think of it being kind of like low budget, fine, too bad acting. And actually probably the same goes to script as well. Zero creativity in terms of directorial choices. Potentially because there simply isn't time. So this is all I would say pretty accurate. Like the stereotype is kind of accurate. It's— it is a lot of rom coms. A typical Hallmark release cost just $2 million to produce, which is—

JAZZA: Oh wow.

ROWAN: —essentially nothing. That is 100 times less than, like blockbusters that you would see right. So like, No Way Home, for example, I know it's a $200 million budget. So quite literally a hundred times more expensive, which you know, you would expect. But 2 mill—2 million sounds like a lot until you actually get into the fact you having to pay for literally everything and everyone who works on that movie, and that suddenly, the money just goes. And so it's no surprise that because of that low budget, they are attempting to fit things into a very tight timeline, especially because Hallmark will produce like dozens of movies just for their Christmas season. So the filming itself apparently takes just 15 days for a typical Hallmark movie.

JAZZA: Oh my, that's wild.

ROWAN: Which means no fancy camera angles, hence why the directing is pretty bland. No kind of pushing to overtime. Very few retakes, apparently. So there's really no room for the actors to do much like figuring out different choices for their character like anything like that. It feels like it's just like, okay, go, go go. And then the editing team often has about two weeks to edit the entire movie.

JAZZA: You're joking.

ROWAN: Nope. That is what I read a few—there's been a few deep dives actually within probably the last like five years. A bunch of them have been done. And this is kind of what gets talked about. There's a lot of like anonymous insider knowledge and like leaked info, which is all very clandestine. And so yeah, it's—it's been—the— the plot of these movies has been especially the Christmas ones because it's not just— Hallmarks not just for Christmas gang. It's a—it's a whole year round.

JAZZA: And capitalizing all year round.

ROWAN: Truly. And so the—here's the plot. This is the—this is the plot. This is the joke, right? You've got a typical city dwelling rat woman, who loves to do business and has to come back to her family town and or some other kind of small town for some reason, where she meets herself, the small town hunky local bakery owner/lumberjack/architect/dad. And at first off, they couldn't be more different, they do—they don't see eye to eye, but then they find they have common ground. And at the end they're kissing. You know, it's this—it's all very cute. You can probably see Jazza, as someone who has watched this film. How that is essentially been superimposed on to this movie as well. This is a— this is not like a it's a gay Hallmark movie, therefore we're going to treat it differently. The main character in this is just the city dwelling rat woman.

JAZZA: Um, yeah, 100% like the opening scenes of oh, I'm—I'm here and I'm overworked. And I'm married to my job. And I never even think about love. I was just like, I don't know, the familiarity I actually quite enjoyed, to be completely honest. And that's what the appeal is.

ROWAN: This is what the appeal is. And this is the appeal of a lot of these genres, where things—which I think a lot of people think about when I say these genres, a lot of people think about romance, right? They think the idea of like this set, plot, this set, stock characters, all of this kind of stuff. And I think that there is this element of we know what's going to happen, we—therefore there is a satisfaction and the payoff when that does happen, right? I think gets looked down on I would say a lot, particularly as a more like women oriented stereotypically kind of genre, because you could say the exact same thing about a bunch of male dominated genres of like action movies, of who like murder, who done it type things. Although I would argue that they have actually the strongest like I used to work at a publisher, and in terms of crime and thriller, middle aged women were actually the highest proportion of that audience for book content. But yeah, because of the stereotypes, you—I feel like the idea that it stopped, as you said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. But we—you know, the criticisms of these particular Hallmark movies are not because their stock romances, let's put it that way. So I mentioned before about these interesting little tendrils that come and you sort of hinted at it earlier, when you talked about the idea of banning a gay ad. So for those who don't know, essentially, in December of 2019, the channel stopped airing these ads for a wedding registry, like an online wedding registry, called Solo, that included like two brides kissing, because they had complaints that this was like not family friendly, like promoted same sex marriage, whatever that means.

JAZZA: They were actually lobbied by a—by an organization called 1 million.

ROWAN: They're the worst. Just the worst.

JAZZA: Again, they're not nice people.

ROWAN: But they did very quickly, like within the same month, like there was a very quick turnaround, reverse that decision and actually reinstated the adverts. And went further than that to say that they were going to work with GLAAD, which is I'm sure everyone who listens to the podcast knows this, is kind of like a media monitoring organization, I guess specifically for LGBTQ plus media to create more inclusive programming. And I think that, that idea of hey, how have they gone from banning these ads to doing a movie like this in like three years, is because of the fact that they had this proactive kind of immediate response to them banning this ad on banning it, but saying we're actually going to work on our programming, that meant that they could be putting out queer content very quickly afterwards. Other than the fact that obviously, they took—take about seven days to write, shoot and edit the thing. But this is not very surprising that there might have been this initial backlash to this ad because it is hugely popular with red states. Yes.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: American conservatives, because the colors are the opposite round in the UK.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: So ratings for Hallmark programs, for example, a higher by 50% or more outside of the top 10 TV markets, which are very blue state centered like New York, LA, San Fran, Boston, Chicago, things like that. It's very like known that this is a kind of within, kind of central to right leading America. And a reason for this might be the fact that initially, this was originally a Christian specific set of programming. For a very long time, it was like all religious and then slowly, it's—the company started to have more involvement or be bought by or be part owned by other companies. And so the most significant ones being Hallmark Entertainment, and the Jim Henson Company. And so for a while it was like the Hallmark and Henson like network until it got rebranded as just Hallmark. And so for a while they're like the—the—uh Hallmark and Henson network was what they were called in 1999. And they decreased the religious programming but there was still like, four hours a week, day and more on like Sundays and religious holidays and stuff. And so it's slowly been getting to the point where I don't think anyone associates Hallmark with specifically like Christian worship, kind of like programming. But this idea of it being very right leaning, is still somehow baked it in a way it's still something that people feel a connection to, because of these ideas that go along with thatof like traditional family values, and like steering clear of political themes and stories that go against religion and like all of these things that might be alienating to an audience, he was more right leaning.

JAZZA: And a critique of the main character very often being from coastal cities where it's more socially liberal.

ROWAN: Exactly.

JAZZA: They go out more, they date more liberally, and like I was watching this, and it felt like I was watching propaganda.

ROWAN: Hmm. Yes.

JAZZA: And it felt so much like heteronormative propaganda of oh, yeah, move out of the city, move close to your parents, have a nuclear family, like literally, the—the romantic interest does the sign of a cross on he—on himself, seeing un-ironic— —yeah, it was—it was a very odd watch fom that perspective.

ROWAN: It's really interesting. And when you think about the fact that this is also that kind of how women are treated within these productions, as well, I feel like there's two very different potential agendas in making women learn the big lesson to be, that they should care more about family and children than they should about their work. And then also, gay people are good when they want to be like us and are very much in the heteronormative sort of like framework. I think both of those are really interesting things ot essentially gotten to, like that end has gotten to by the same means always, like the same storyline is—is kind of pigeon holing both of these demographics of our protagonist that we can see within Hallmark movies. But yeah, so now—now this is—this is kind of what we have. This is one of the very few Hallmark movies that have queer sort of characters in the forefront. A lot of people have been calling this one the first. I think it's like the—the—what do they calling it.

ROWAN AND JAZZA: It's the first—

JAZZA: Hallmark produced one. L—gbt leaders is not.

ROWAN: So a lot of people have been talking about this being their first gay Christmas movie. But actually, they had another one last year with Jonathan Bennett in it called The Christmas House. But it was—it's an ensemble, kind of lead role, right? It's not like—

JAZZA: Oh right.

ROWAN: —there's the one lead. So it's like a bunch of—it's like two brothers come back. And it's like the story of the whole family doing their house up for Christmas. And he is in that, and he has like a hus—an existing husband. And so it's like the stories of these different couples, and their trials and tribulations and whatever. So it's not, I would say, it's not technically the first if we're going with like having gay leads at all, but it seems to be the first one where it's like, this is the sole romantic—

JAZZA: The central plot.

ROWAN: —rom-com type lead. And it's very interesting considering how many hundreds—no, thousands of these movies have been made, that we're only just getting to this point. And in fact, there was only a lesbian kiss for the first time last year, in any of their media. So—

JAZZA: Well, that's because lesbians aren't

ROWAN: And that is true. We just come out as like a little ghost. Or like uh—

JAZZA: Exactly.

ROWAN: —or forg—or forgotten about coworker/friend like in this movie.

JAZZA: Yeah,yeah,yeah actually she was there—

ROWAN: Well, she was on it.

JAZZA: —at the very, very beginning and then—

ROWAN: She was around—

JAZZA: —and then never appeared again.

ROWAN: —and then never again. So shall we dig into the—the movie itself?

JAZZA: I'd love it. Let's go.

[theme]

JAZZA: So whenever we do these reviews, we will split the plot into three acts. I open this act with—well, I'm calling the first act Straight People Adopt to (?), because I think I actually genuinely forgot that straight people are— to adopt. You know, what—

ROWAN: Oh my god.

JAZZA: — I really appreciated being—being reminded of that by this movie, you know.

ROWAN: I love it raises awareness, you know what I mean?

JAZZA: Yeah, we're not just laughing, we're learning.

ROWAN: I love that. So yeah, I mean, I—I've kind of been deferring to you on the Act names recently. And I'm happy to continue doing that because I feel you come up with some absolute bangers. Unless there's any that I suddenly come to be in a flash of inspiration. So yeah, essentially, act one begins at the beginning with Sam, the gay scrooge, who I—I have written in my notes I predict will learn to love kids. And—

JAZZA: I mean, don't jump to conclusions, Rowan.

ROWAN: I want to know.

JAZZA: You never know what's gonna happen.

ROWAN: I feel like it would have been a really bold move for this movie to end with him being like, yeah, I really like you. But I just don't—I just don't see myself ever wanting kids. But—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —seemed like a nice guy. Ready to never see you again. So.

JAZZA: Do you remember his name?

ROWAN: It's Sam, the gay scrooge.

JAZZA: No, no, no. Sorry, the name of the guy who he dates at the very beginning.

ROWAN: The very beginning, no.

JAZZA: So he's on—so we—we open up, he's on a date in New York. We're in New York, obviously. Oh, my God, I'm so stressed. I've been working so hard, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then Dr. Vance DeBlane, it turns out.

ROWAN: Oh, I didn't

JAZZA: And he's like, um, I love this. I—I love this and it was downhill from here. Dr. Vance DeBlane turns up, and he goes I'm sorry, surgery overrun—

ROWAN: Classic.

JAZZA: I was busy doing like brain surgery on somebody.

ROWAN: Classic shit that someone would say if they were pretending to be a doctor. I don't trust this man as far as I can throw him.

JAZZA: Exactly. And I think he also introduces himself as hello, I'm Dr. Van DeBlane.

ROWAN: MD.

JAZZA: Uh, MD. And then he starts talking about ah, I am really looking forward to the holidays because of my little niece. Here's my little niece, and Sam, we get character development, Sam doesn't like kids. And as you said, is he going to learn to love them?

ROWAN: Oh it's like a niece and nephew, because he's like, oh, there's oh—there's two of them. And I really felt—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —an affinity with Sam in that moment, because I to look at children just like a photo of a child. And I'm like, that could be a stock image. Like, I am like, wow, they look like kids. Like to get at least give me a video of them doing—

JAZZA: Knowing—knowing the budget?

ROWAN: —something fun.

JAZZA: Knowing the budget, it probably was.

ROWAN: Oh, that's sad. Imagine if it still had like stock photo across it, like the watermark was—was still there. Then we come close to take off the watermark.

JAZZA: I'd love that. Especia—if—If it was like a Hallmark

ROWAN: Oh my that'd be great.

JAZZA: It's like, like in the photo set.

ROWAN: It's just—it's just a photo of a Hallmark card.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Oh my gosh.

JAZZA: Someone—someone hired us.

ROWAN: So this movie does something really interesting. And I don't know there is because there were two guys and they got confused. But it gives us the point of view of the other character. And I feel like a lot of the times in rom coms traditionally, it's like you follow one love interest out of the two. So someone I guess tell us if you like Rowan, you fall. That's what they do in every Hallmark movie. But that was very interesting to me, because we also get Jason who's on a phone call to his mom, who literally lives across the street. Incredible. And to really contrast him with Sam, we have him going out of his door and immediately getting into a snowball fight with some—what I thought were random kids on the street, but I—

JAZZA: Get out of here kids.

ROWAN: —like nieces and nephews because he's fun and festive and also spontaneous. And at this point, I put Hallmark movies have no personality to the directing, which upon further research does make sense. But yeah, the script is essentially just a series of pieces of exposition. One after another with absolutely zero subtext, or knew what's going on whatsoever. So you literally have like the sister of the gay scrooge, Sam realizing, oh, no honey, the surrogate that we have for our baby has gone into labor two weeks early, because the baby was meant to be born in New Year's, but it is in fact Christmas. Oh no. What we do? We will have to find someone to look after our existing children who are 13 and one younger, and he is not old enough to look after his own. Okay, let's go through everyone we know. We could ask mom except—and they just—they just have this that's the scene. It's just them actually having a discussion which you know, is realistic, but isn't interesting. And so it's just the most like exposition-heavy thing you've ever seen. Which gets I'm going to hit maybe it's just my opinion, gets very boring, very quickly.

ROWAN: Oh, I—what—I don't know. I feel like we can summarize quite quickly what all of the exposition that happened—

ROWAN: Yeah maybe they should summarize it very quickly, Jazza,

JAZZA: —Yeah. Okay, maybe. In like the first— in—in the first like 45 minutes, it's all exposition. So they're gonna hav—the baby is early. They need somebody to— Babysit them.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: That's—yeah, the Cis-hets, they need someone to babysit their children. Can we ask the neighbor next door who actually is already helping us out with painting, and we know is really good with kids? No, of course not. Let's ask my stran—not strange, but my—my gay brother who hates children, who's about to go on holiday. And I'm going to call him up and make him cancel his flight or move his flight or whatever because he's meant to be going to Honolulu. The brother says yes because siblings they have like beef with one another. And she's—she's calling in like a favor that she did like 20 years ago or whatever.

ROWAN: Classic. And then hilariously not to spoil anything. But that neighbor who's really good with kids just ends up looking after the kids the entire time anyway.

JAZZA: Yeah,

ROWAN: Almost like he could've just done it to begin with.

JAZZA: I have a question, Rowan.

ROWAN: Yeah?

JAZZA: If you had—if you were in this situation and you are about to get on a flight to Honolulu, and your—your sibling calls up and goes, hi, can you look after the ki— can you not go on the flight and look after the kids? And if you don't, I'll tell mom and dad about that time I covered for you in like, in year six. Would you do it?

ROWAN: I will say, go fuck yourself. I'd say—

JAZZA: That—that is what real—

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: That is what real sibling

ROWAN: I would pick—pick one of the three siblings. I have a beer Elia and or Ben and or Mac. No. I'm simply getting on plane, and hire a babysitter.

JAZZA: Yeah, maybe pay somebody.

ROWAN: The end of story. Like, you—there's not really much else to do with this. Also, like, was there a reason they can just take the kids with them? I'm sure they got explained in the exposition that I slept through. But um—

JAZZA: Is it because of the play? There was a play that's happening.

ROWAN: Oh, of course, they couldn't miss the play. Which the mom had forgotten about, so maybe that wasn't it? So at this point, I also wanted to ask some questions of you.

JAZZA: Oh.

ROWAN: What's going on with Hallmark and capitalism? Like do they think capitalism is bad? And also like he specifically has a job where he just looks after rich people, it's like, is it like

JAZZA: No, no, no. They think—let me tell you.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: They love capitalism but in terms of like small businesses.

ROWAN: Ohh.

JAZZA: So they love the idea of like a mom at pop shop—

ROWAN: Bootstraps. Yeah.

JAZZA: —or like, yeah, exactly. bootstraps. They hate the idea of somebody like working in tech, working in something that doesn't have intrinsic value like me—like media, like they have critic—

ROWAN: I thought you were going to say like me. Like yeah, that's a fair. You do—you do work for the machine.

JAZZA: If you weren't able to merge, don't be my employer. But if you're not able to explain it to like somebody in the 1940s, then it's not a real job in their eyes.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: Which is why all of—the all of the love interests are like ski instructors or carpenters.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Or teachers.

ROWAN: It's like that meme that you won't know because it won't reach YouTube shorts yet, because it's on Tiktok.

JAZZA: Of course. Yeah.

ROWAN: About—

JAZZA: What I watch—I watch Tiktok two weeks later on YouTube shorts because I'm an adult.

ROWAN: Okay, so it might just have reached you, but there's this meme of like, people making less of what would take out a child from like the 1800s. And it's things like the Gangnam Style video, music video, and stuff like that. Like if you were to show it to them, they die.

JAZZA: Sure. Yes. Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: But it's really funny because I saw one the other day where, the one girl starts with like something like Gangnam Style, and the other one just goes Diptheria. And then it goes.And this girl called, she's like, I think I fundamentally misunderstood the assignment, and you're just going back in the other person's like, I don't know, something like an ice rink that like we've built ourselves or something inside of a mall, and the other ones like cholera, and it just . So I feel like yeah, the answer is like, if it could—if it could take out a child in the 1800s, it's not a job were allowed to happen at Hallmark movie. That's the rule.

JAZZA: No ice skating, or Korean pop stars. That's what we've decided. This is also the point where the propaganda really gets turned up to 10. And I take with it because we're introduced to an underaged, straight relationship blossoming. And I'm never going to tolerate Christians talking about gay people, grooming children because I'm sorry, this is making me uncomfortable. That child is 13.

ROWAN: I yeah—I also—that I don't care about these teenagers flirting, if this is a subplot, I will snore.

JAZZA: It was—it was and I spoil that—

ROWAN: And I simply did.

JAZZA: It was a—I simply did.

ROWAN: Yeah, it was these two like random children who had like a crush on each other. And I don't know whether they were trying to do like a love actually situation, where it's like, oh, if you perform, like we're going to perform in the play together, but somehow, I've actually managed to have like, three times as many plot lines and still make me care more about the teenagers fighting. I simply didn't care in this. And then there's also—basically, this was like really—this movie really hits you over the head with like, two elements. One is like the romance element. But the other one is specifically like babies, children. And so another bit of the romance element is the very short live lesbian coworker/friend that Sam, the gay scrooge has. Who essentially has just gotten engaged, and he doesn't seem to be a very, like a romance scrooge. Like he seems to be excited about the fact that she's getting married, and they have like a tiny joke about the idea of like, oh, did you ever think you'd see the day, and her being like, more than anything, I hope one day you find a guy, and I'm like, wow. Ooh, savage.

JAZZA: Yeah, you're not going to be able to be happy with unless you're in a heteronormative relationship.

ROWAN: Yeah. And although it is very accurate, the lesbians do bully everyone else in the community. We are obviously known for being mean. Me, for example, love to bully Jazza.

JAZZA: Yeah, case in point, every episode of this podcast.

ROWAN: Which I know what even are you, a gay, non-binary. They're—they're my favorite ones to—

JAZZA: That's who we are

ROWAN: They're my favorite ones to um—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Absolutely rip to shreds. So that seemed very accurate to me. And we essentially at this point, also get shu—we don't just get exposition, we get a flashback to show what they're exposing, which is the—the last time you tried to look after the kids. He managed to burn dinner, and have a terrible mustache all at the same time.

JAZZA: Yeah. And so he ends up arriving— his own nice doesn't recognize him because he no longer has a mustache. And that really is most—oh no, then they have a conversation later on. But that is the only reason that that child exists in this—in this movie.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: We also on the Jason side, who is the hot handyman next door, who is going to make some love children. We get introduced to his brother, who is a widower now and is therefore a single dad. And actually, you know what, I am going to give them some credit of there were lots of different types of families in this movie, and I don't think I've ever really seen that. And I think that's a good thing.

ROWAN: I love that. Did I miss the bit where it turns out he was a widower, and I thought that he was just

JAZZA: Probably.

ROWAN: Yes. Good to know. Good to know the like, what was actually happening in that.

[theme]

JAZZA: Hello Jazza here for the ad read. We like to talk about our sibling podcasts who are also part of our network at Multitude. And this week, I want to talk to you about Pale Blue Pod. Pale Blue Pod is an astronomy podcast for people who are overwhelmed by the universe, but want to be its friend. Astrophysicist Dr. Moiya McTier and comedian Corrine Caputo, demystify space, one topic at a time, with open eyes, open arms, and open mouths from all of the laughing and jaw dropping that inevitably happens. By the end of each episode, the cosmos will feel a little less oh, it's so scary and a little bit more, oh, it's so cool. There is—having listened to a few episodes that they're pretty new. I love the wonderful authentic nerd energy that just runs through this podcast, like a sticker rock. And it's gonna have you genuinely smiling like a goofball in commuting to work or doing whatever you do to distract yourself from the earth that we are traveling on through space. There are new episodes every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts. So go check them out, give them some love. We are also continuing to be supported with sponsorship by Squarespace who can help you to buy a domain and create a website. There are many, many people across the internet who want you to use their code. I just ask that you consider us the next time that you buy a website or domain. We personally use Squarespace as a way to be able to create our own Queer Movie Podcast website. And it gives us great access to stuff like analytics, we have access to email campaigns, and we're able to connect all of our social media, our Instagram, and our Twitter all in one place. So yeah, use them the next time you're thinking about making one of these purchases. Just go to squarespace.com/queermovie. And when you're set up to make all your digital dreams come true. Then you can use our code Queer Movie, and save 10 percentage points off of your first purchase of a website or domain. Remember to go to squarespace.com/queermovie. This episode were also sponsored by brilliant.org. Why not balance out the outstanding media analysis that we do on Q and P by using brilliant to expand your horizons into the fields of maths, science, and technology? Rowan in last week's ad read talked about gays not being good at maths. And I don't want to turn this into an inter-ad-read war. But we literally have Alan Turing on the 50-pound note, who is a gay man who helped to crack the Enigma code in World War Two, is a renowned mathematician. We can do maths, and we have fantastic queers who do maths, Rowan. And so I want all of you to feel empowered to do so. Not feeling like you have to blaze your own trail. At brilliant.org they have thousands of lessons and keep adding new ones each month. So the wealth of knowledge you're feeding from is constantly replenished. Brilliant can help you bring out your inner cheering. But let's start with baby steps. Maybe give yourself an introduction to algebra or a classical algorithm and fundamentals. Their bite-size classes can take you from beginner to advanced in no time. To get started for free visit brilliant.org/queermovie or click on the link in the description. The first 200 of you to do so, will get 20% off brilliant annual premium subscription. Very fancy, very nice. We endorse. Now, back with the show.

[theme]

ROWAN: I at this point I think jumped into my act two, but I don't know whether you had— where you'd play stack two for you.

JAZZA: Yeah, act two does appear around here, and my naming for act two is Thus. This movie shows the reality of the fear of being queer moving out to the suburbs, reducing your dating pool, and settling for somebody for whom you have zero chemistry.

ROWAN: Incredible and accurate. I should point out around you know, who knows when act one and act two happens somewhere. I didn't actually fall asleep during this, but I think maybe my brain shut down, but somewhere in there, they also met by doing a classic fall into each other's arms.

JAZZA: Of course. They do this a couple of times at this movie as well.

ROWAN: Oh god. Just the worst.

JAZZA: No wrestling though.

ROWAN: I don't—I make a comment about this later Jazza. It's— essentially this just—it becomes very apparent at this point that everyone else just seems to be acting in one of the Hallmarks movies that I like not necessarily literally Hallmark movies, but the kind of movies that are of this genre that are a bit more serious, in that they may be there is like, an actual like moment the you're like, oh god that got me in a way. Our main man, Sam, however, is not here, he's in Dr. Seuss's cat in the hat. He's in a slapstick comedy. He's really in a totally different movie in terms of like, there's like a record scratch when he finds out he need to babysit the kid.

JAZZA: Oh my god, the record scratch.

ROWAN: I gotta babysit some kids? No way! It's really frustrating because there's actually quite a few random like sound effects, which are not part of the world he's in that happened around him. And it—he's simply not funny enough to earn them. Uh, it's my—it's my opinion.

JAZZA: Aw.

ROWAN: You need to earn a record scratch in my book. But yeah, so into—into Act Two, essentially, it's three days until Christmas. He is now looking after the kids. And it's just a series of him being like, oh, crazy. This kid has a crush and I got to deal with it. And he's been in a play or something. This one's vegan now. Oh my god.

ROWAN: Can I just before we dive into this really fascinating part of the movie, do you remember how Sam cottoned on to the fact that Jason is gay?

ROWAN: Is it because he hugged—he hugged a man?

JAZZA: No, it's ha—that—that comes that comes later, that's his ex.

ROWAN: Oh, okay.

JAZZA: Jason says oh, I really like your—and his name's the brand of the loafer.

ROWAN: Ah.

JAZZA: That he's wearing.

ROWAN: I see.

JAZZA: And Sam goes, hey, how do you know what type of loafers these are? And then Jason gives a knowing look, and that's how we know he's gay.

ROWAN: Oh, Incredible. I mean, they both had truly a horrendous fashion sent stringless maybe.

JAZZA: Really terrible.

ROWAN: Really bad.

JAZZA: Really terrible.

ROWAN: So that—

JAZZA: Nothing fit in.

ROWAN: —that doesn't really make sense logically, within the internal logic of the film that they've created. But there we go.

JAZZA: We al—we also at this point, get the thank God the only mean goes with this.

ROWAN: Oh, God.

JAZZA: Where a Sam is woken up by a dog licking his face, and he goes stops trying to make fetch happen.

ROWAN: I—Yeah

JAZZA: And everyone died of

ROWAN: So much.

JAZZA: Which is why it is silent.

ROWAN: There's just a series of things in this which were like if they had just had like—if they had the money to hire some kind of consultant on here for like continuity, for example, they whisked dry flour for quite a long time during one scene, which was kind of fun. And then he goes, what do we put in next, and the guy goes flour and then he just put flour into the bowl of flour, you can whisk it and I found that incredible. But basically like this is where the oh, here's the plot happens. Because there is a lot of like subplots that essentially amount to very little, but the main—the main plot—plot is the idea of like, hey, I want to be a better uncle to look after these kids. You know how to Uncle because you have about a thousand nephews and nieces and nibblings.

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: Can you be my uncle's consultant, I will pay you money to do this. And Jason, I guess is like, I love money and

JAZZA: Capitalism. You can explain this to somebody in the 1800s.

ROWAN: Exactly. He's like that is—that is my job now, Uncle consultant. That seems like the kind of—everyone was a bloody light had a—had a ward in the Edwardian times. So this makes a total sense.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And so this is kind of the idea of like, hey, you're hanging around and teaching me how to be a good uncle. And then they go and do a bunch of Christmas stuff together. They go to the Christmas fair—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: That's very obvious it's in summer because it is very sunny, and the snow is very sparse, and there's entirely dry ground between all of the bits of snow because no one has been trailing wet footprints across—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —beautiful set dressing. Stunning. And there's also the line. You're spending Christmas in Hawaii by yourself with such judgment from Jason. And I'm like, yeah, and it sounds like a dream, Jason. Don't kill Sam’s dreams, sir.

JAZZA: So did you get from Jason the slight, I want to murder you in way your skin vibes?

ROWAN: Oh, yeah.

JAZZA: There were a couple of moments. So there's a bit where Sam goes in—because Jason has been helping Sam's sister to paint the new nursery for the baby that's coming. And Sam goes in and—and watches Jason do some of this painting. And I don't know what it is about the delivery, but it's very, I flavor beans and a nice Chianti. Like it's like—

ROWAN: Chianti.

JAZZA: —I always find—Chianti. I always find painting to be soothing. And I don't know what it was about that delivery. I was just like, run, run a mile.

ROWAN: I would really love it If someone in the audience could recap this movie as a trailer for a horror movie. I feel like it will be pretty fun. Because that definitely that film like it has potential. But yeah, essentially, I think it's just there's a certain type of blank blandness that will give way to spookiness if you let it. And I think this unsettling blank page of a man was really, really giving that spookiness that you picked up on Jazza. I—I fully agree.

JAZZA: Yeah. 100%. So they start, they keep on, kind of like having slight brush moments. So Jason is trying to teach them how to cook, or how you try and bond with your nephews. I don't know. The main beep like I feel like, is Sam trying to teach his nephew how to perform in the Christmas play? And how to speak with more confidence, which actually I did quite like those scenes. I thought they were kind of sweet. Eventually, he wakes up one morning. I honestly I think I bugged up my notes because there's I feel like there's a big gap of like things that must have happened, but it just didn't write anything down.

ROWAN: Nothing was important. Here's—here's what—where—where did you— where is you—where have you jumped to, and I can fill you in on the unimportant stuff that happen.

JAZZA: I've gone from—so they're wrapping Christmas presents. Oh, hilarious trying wrap a scooter? Yeah.

ROWAN: Shall I tell you what happened before they tried to wrap the presents?

JAZZA: Yes, go on.

ROWAN: I took extensive notes, apparently. But who knows why. His slow motion fell into a Christmas Tree to avoid the dog and then acted like it was the heaviest thing in the world and was crushing him. Two other people took it off with zero difficulties.

JAZZA: Exactly.

ROWAN: They went on the light walk, where they looked at all of the lights on the Christmas Trees in the neighborhood, which is when he says, hey, this was my ex. I—I'm not into him anymore.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: I'm just a bit jealous because I always wanted to kind of when I grow—when I grew up to like get married and be a dad. And at that point, I wrote down, huh interesting. Because he wouldn't have been able to get married, or potentially even adopt when he was growing up at this age. And then I was like, interesting missing out on like political angst, seems quite Hallmark. We will find out later that this does actually come back and get commented on at the end, however, which is interesting. And he reveals that he wants to actually adopt , he doesn't want to wait till he's in a relationship. So he wants to be a dad that badly. Then the baby's been born. And my notes are just, we're spending way too much time with these heterosexuals. didn't need to be in there. We didn't need to keep checking back on these people.

JAZZA: Oh, also the dad gets introduced. And I don't know why he's in this movie.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah.

JAZZA: Is it just—is it just to show that grandparents should also be around? It's the propaganda again, isn't it?

ROWAN: Yeah cause it's like, he does this whole thing.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: this whole thing where it's like, oh, it's not just me. He's going to Hawaii like my parents aren't together. And like, my dad lives in a cabin or whatever. Like, there's a lot of this element—

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: —of, we're not a real family 'cause we're not together at Christmas. So they had to get back together. I also have a line which does talk back to what you said about they're not fist fighting. Because for those who aren't aware, me and Jazza have noticed a very interesting trend were, when they

JAZZA: It's a very interesting trend, yeah.

ROWAN: Where they want to make gay guys make out in movies, they often make the gay guys just wrestle each other on the ground first, like so often.

JAZZA: And I will say that's—that is what a lot of my teenage romance—

ROWAN: That's valid.

JAZZA: —started as, so yeah it's valid. You know, it's a trope, but it's a valid trope.

ROWAN: That's based on true events, from Jazza:'s life.

JAZZA: I actually consulted on all of those movies. That's the problem.

ROWAN: And then my notes for what happened when I really, really felt that imagery come to the fore for me, was when Sam goes can I help with very dramatic music as they make Santa waffles? And then in brackets just fight then fuck, I can't take this lack of chemistry.

JAZZA: Weird.

ROWAN: And then we get to them wrapping Christmas presents together. So as you can tell very little of consequence happened. You miss nothing, Jazza.

JAZZA: Yeah. Okay. Great. I'm very happy about that. So they wrap Christmas presents. Ooh, lol, hilarious. Great. At some point, Jason gives Sam a present. So it's like a shitty Christmas jumper that says nice. Great. Santa is giving me presents.

ROWAN: Irony.

JAZZA: And then—and then under—because we've been told Sam's not nice. And then underneath that, he's got the genuine present, which is, it's just a jumper. And Sam has an incredibly intense emotional reaction to the jumper. And he goes, it's perfect. And I'm like, you haven't spoken about your love of jumpers up into this point. All he's done and said, I thought this hella would look nice on you, which I guess would make you think oh, he's thought about it. But this isn't—the emotional reaction to this does not marry up with what has just happened here.

ROWAN: Yes. Essentially, there's been no chemistry. There's been no real buildup of the relationship. And then so completely unearned. They have a moment where they hold hands and then they like, have to take their hand away because it's like, oh, no, we held hands. We couldn't possibly. And I really feel like I need to point out to these Hallmark filmmakers, just because Sam cannot talk to children, it doesn't mean he wants them. That's not how that works. Just because he can make some waffles doesn't mean you suddenly like wait, children. I've I this whole time. And then I also put at this point, okay, the baby is still alive and we have to see it for some reason, which I guess was about the fact we had flashback once more to this baby, that the straight couple are adopting.

JAZZA: But did you notice how little engagement with said baby? I don't know if you've been around like newborn babies, but you literally have to be attentive to them all of the time. And they just put this—

ROWAN: I've watched what you do.

JAZZA: I literally—They just put this baby do—this baby doesn't cry once. This baby just gets put down, and they just kind of like nobody interacts with it. Nobody picks it up. Nobody kind of like confronts it. It's a—it's very, it's very odd.

ROWAN: Jazza, I have a theory.

JAZZA: Oh no.

ROWAN: We never see the woman who goes into labor. We never see the person who gives birth to this child.

JAZZA: No, we don't. Which I also thought was a bit odd. Yeah.

ROWAN: What if it's a reborn?

JAZZA: What's a reborn?

ROWAN: Oh, Jazza. I feel so happy for you that you don't know about this. So basically, it's— it's hyper-realistic dolls.

JAZZA: Oh, no.

ROWAN: What if they have just bought a hyperrealistic doll in this whole thing? And the reason why the youngest girl is like, I don't like that my parents have left me at Christmas. It's because she knows they're going to pick up a doll. And all of this is—and so that's the reason why they aren't checking on this baby. It's because it doesn't need feeding. It doesn't eat. It's literally just a lifeless doll.

JAZZA: It is the ultimate realization that is inevitably going to happen in our culture when a straight couple gets so boring that they need to spice up their life somehow. And so they have a kid, this allows you to have a kid I guess. And not actually, you know, do the thing.

ROWAN: Yeah. So I—you know what, until someone from the movie calls me up directly on the landline that I don't have, and tells me that that's wrong. That's—that's true now.

JAZZA: Yeah, guilty until proven innocent. It's true.

ROWAN: Exactly.

[theme]

ROWAN: So it's at this point after we've had like this weird Christmas jumper exchange, and Sam getting weirdly emotional about this guy that he knows, he isn't compatible with. I moved into act three. I don't know if you—you'd moved to act three at this point.

JAZZA: Yes. So this is—because this is the point where we have the closest thing to a party. And it is for me the Christmas Play.

ROWAN: Yeah. The play and it's aftermath.

JAZZA: Yeah, the (Christmas Play) party, and its aftermath.

ROWAN: Stunning. Yes.

JAZZA: We made it work. We made it work. This play is one of the worst attended plays that I've ever seen in a movie.

ROWAN: In a movie, not in real life. Because plays in real life are often very badly attended.

JAZZA: Often very badly attended uh—

ROWAN: Again, just—their attention to detail to reality in this movie is incredible.

JAZZA: I've been to a bit of a I have been one of three people in an audience before. And this isn't not a good play surprise. Nobody is dressed up. No one's put any effort into this play. They're just some kids are the—some of the kids are wearing scarves and like where's wally hat.

ROWAN: Is the play a metaphor for this movie?

JAZZA: I hope so.

ROWAN: Maybe.

JAZZA: And Sam and Jason teamed up. They're like, high five. Yeah, we're now like the tech hunkles. And because they bought a camera, because the parents can't watch them play. And they brought a backup, and like yeah, backup, and now they're, I guess it team.

ROWAN: Stunning. Couldn't—couldn't just like use their phones or anything. They had to be really inconvenient to get some tripods out.

JAZZA: Oh, yeah. Literally whole—whole shebang. So they—we get to Christmas Eve. And the point where I thought Jason was going to kill Sam, happens. So Jason says we're going to turn off all of the lights. Because we used to turn off all of the lights and just kind of like be present. Which, you know, fine. People have into that mindfulness stuff. They turn off the lights, they look at the tree, they kind of start holding hands, and then Jason starts humming Silent Night. And I swear if I—if he had brought out a knife, and just stabbed Sam to death at this point. I actually would have preferred that. I would have preferred it in the movie, as a movie.

ROWAN: Shocking twist ending on the Hallmark's first gay Christmas movie.

JAZZA: Hallmark's first gay, Christmas Horror movie.

ROWAN: They lost full sense of security. And then they went straight for the homicidal homosexual. Yeah, that was just like the line in that whole section, which is clearly meant to be like, oh, the sweet, like little quiet moment of romance, where he's like the anticipation. So much is about to happen. Oh, I love Christmas in the nighttime. I wish there was any chemistry to make that line worth it. But there's simply not.

JAZZA: I have a question. Not so much for you. But for the people who are making these—these quick Christmas movies. Because we have a similar problem with Single All The Way last year, where it felt like there was zero chemistry with the couple that ended up getting together.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And this has happened now. Now, from my experience, gay men are fantastic at pretending that they have chemistry. The whole Grindr just floated on the New York Stock Exchange. If gay men had a problem pretending to have chemistry with strangers that they've just met, Grindr would not be the success that it is today. So how have they managed to do castings of these, these two big kind of like queer holiday movies, and found people that just don't have any of that togetherness?

ROWAN: So I think a big part of the—of this is, is exactly what I mentioned before about the fact that the two leads seem to be in very different vibes of movie. And there is a moment, there is a brief second of a moment, which I think is almost right at the end. I think it might be just after they've kissed. And you see both of them. And they both have the same kind of smile on their face, which is quite like, this is so specific, but it's—it's not that one of the characters is like overly goofy bug-eyed, like Hollywood smile, and the other ones doing a soft, sweet Hallmark movie smile. They both genuinely are just smiling. And they're—and it's like, they have a little inside joke together and whatever. And then that one second of the movie, I was like, that's what they needed to have been doing this entire time. They needed to have been making it so that both of them are on the exact same wavelength with it. So when they look at each other, and you're meant to see that there's some kind of connection, there is a genuine moment where they're like, they have a secret smile with each other, or they're having like an eye-roll with each other. Or there's some kind of like levity, humor, tension to it, where they both are on the same wavelength with what that vibe and energy is. And I think the big problem for me was, you can never have chemistry, where you have characters who were feel like they are so completely in a different vibe of movie, it's just not going to work. Because you can never get them to a place where they genuinely feel like they are connecting in that moment. Because there is such performativity to it. At least for me, that's my two cents on that—on this issue, because you're right, it shouldn't have been that difficult to happen.

JAZZA: Yeah, I think that was very good. And they should probably hire you. So Sam tries to give Jason the money that they agreed on. But we later find out that Jason doesn't want his money. Why are you just paying me, I'm not a common uh—

ROWAN: Poor?

JAZZA: — a common whore.

ROWAN: Even though it's almost like that was the agreement that they came to. And if he had just not given him any money, then he would be like, my dude, I literally did all of this for the promise of money. And you've given me absolutely, you've been like, okay, bye. I'm going to Hawaii now.

JAZZA: And so Sam has decided not to go to Hawaii, and instead spend Christmas with his families.

JAZZA: Christmas, this morning. The kids get to meet their new little sister, and they turn around and just go, baby. So that's— so that's fun.

ROWAN: Yep.

JAZZA: They've named the kid after her. After Sam as well. It's called Angelica Samantha. So that's sweet. And the dad then triggers his gay son by suggesting pancakes, because that's what Jason taught Sam how to make. And then he goes into the other room to have a breakdown of a pancake.

ROWAN: It's really funny because I actually so—I only saw this movie, which is maybe right before we recorded, so it was nice and fresh in my mind. And also because I forgot before then to do it, which is very me. But I had seen someone had done a Tiktok where they were like, if you don't know the context for this scene, this is completely unhinged and hilarious. I didn't realize that scene was from this movie. So the scene is just an old man saying, I'd love some pancakes. And then it pan. It just cuts to a man looking at him. Who immediately—

JAZZA: How does it pan to a man?

ROWAN: —immediately it cuts—it doesn't—it doesn't pancake to a man. Unfortunately, it is cuts to a man who has a split second of hearing what he's just said. And in his face crumples. And then he runs away crying. And I was like, I remember watching that Tiktok and being like, God, I guess I'll never know what the context of that was. And then, to my surprise, it turns up in this movie, almost hysterical nonetheless, even with context. And it is at this point where they do actually bring up that political angst option that I had talked about earlier, which was the idea of like, this man just casually says like, oh, yeah right, I'd always dreamt of like getting married and being a dad when I grew up. And I was like, huh, but did you though, like that feels like that's something more complex there? And they did it at the end instead, but with the other character with Sam, but it kind of became this like reasoning of like, oh, the only reason why I said I didn't want kids, and a husband and stuff was because I just hadn't really realized I could. But now I do. Of course, I want kids, uh I'm so silly.

JAZZA: I—I understand your cynical reading of it.

ROWAN: I did also think it was very pleased Jazza, give the lesson a core reading. So I do also think that what you're about to say, I'm sure it's also very correct. And I probably was also feeling that under the surface.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, yeah of course. Rowan does have some feelings.

ROWAN: Allegedly.

JAZZA: I, I loved this. I—I would just clip this part of the movie as kind of like a way of especially for gays of my generation. I don't think we've really—because, because so much has changed in our lifetime, I don't think we really helped me realize how much we were affected by the environment that we were raised in, in our formative years. where we didn't have the option. It was like, I mean, that equal age of consent when we were younger. We didn't have protections in law, and we couldn't do the heteronormative things like get married and adopt children if we wanted to. And I think that that is a subconscious psychological thing that not many people around my age, have necessarily thought about that, that is something that has really—those restrictions, when we were growing up in what a queer person would be able to do, and what they could be, have really affected how we think about what it is possible for us to be when we craft our own lives, and we create our own worlds when we come to maturity. And we choose to kind of like building an adult life for ourself. And I've never—I don't think I've ever seen a movie address that phenomenon. So head on. And I don't think it was the most articulate way of talking about it. And yes, it did have first heteronormative undertones of whoa, oh, if only I had known, I could have also had a partner and children, then, of course, I would have chosen it. I think that does exist in this clip. But I think it explains that phenomenon of what people my age went through, and I really appreciated that.

ROWAN: I—I also do agree with that. Like I—I am very aware of the fact that like you say your age, as we are not the same fucking age, Jazza.

JAZZA: I definit—I feel like I'm older, wiser,

ROWAN: A boomer yeah—

JAZZA: You know.

ROWAN: We understand.

JAZZA: Exactly.

ROWAN: I essentially was like, I was—I was doing the like, you know, being—being harsh on it, to begin with, as is my role in this podcast, I've decided that. But I also was like, for what this movie was. I was like, yeah, fair, this is—they were never gonna go more than this. Like this was what it was. And I was surprised that they did actually mention it because I fully thought they were gonna go completely like on angsty, such political angst in particular. I wish there had been like, more—although, say I'm saying this, but I'm also like, this movie was just never gonna be able to pull that off. But I do think there is a world in which has a movie where they do have any kind of subtext or ceding to the idea of this is something that he does one, but he doesn't quite realize that he can have it or isn't ready to make that step, or he—it doesn't feel like what everyone else talks about, when they talk about it being like, oh, I was imagining my wedding dress when I was a kid. And that idea of like, oh, if I haven't wanted something since the beginning of my life, or haven't been planning for it forever, then maybe I didn't really want it enough. Am I wanting it for other people? Like there's a lot of complexities in that. And I really wish there had been like, any subtexts with the idea that like, oh, he does actually want this. And not just the thing where he's adamant that he doesn't, even when he's seen like, his best friend who is a lesbian get to have it and stuff. And even then he's not like, yeah, I didn't think it would happen not because, you know, because we're gay. But at the beginning, he talks about not thinking what happened because you know, we're we don't do romance or stew. Hahaha. There was some elements or some moments where I was like, oh, this could have been seeded in a really interesting way. But then I suddenly remembered that I had clocked and scrolled back to you, because I couldn't quite place what the actor was going for, in that moment, where we didn't get this political angsty option before, where at the Christmas market, he says about, oh, I've always wanted this. And there's this really weird look that the actor gives. And now I'm like, what's he trying to do? Like, ah, like, oh, but instead of just was like an awkward side eye, where he's like, okay, weirdo. Okay, ooh, you are freak.

JAZZA: Well, there's it. As we said, we've tight turnarounds there's only take.

ROWAN: Truly. So I'm, like, I'm saying this stuff. I'm so aware of the fact that like, this is not a world in which that could actually happen. But I do. But in terms of you saying that this isn't like an experience you've necessarily seen played out. I really—I do want to see that. Because I feel that really hard. And I also think as well, there's like, such a small age difference between us and someone, even like eight years younger than us, and he's younger than us. But they have not had that same experience as us.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: Even as we're getting older, and they are essentially our peers now, a lot of these people. Like, it's—it's like, oh, there is a fundamental difference in how we were raised. Because you were—you don't ever remember there being a time when you weren't legally equal in this country. Like that's not a thing you have to experience—

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: —and understand, and like be going into the world of adulthood knowing that, that was or really believing that, that was never going to happen. Like I found a I think was like a Facebook post that your memory thing of you know, and it says like, oh, you know, 10 years ago, this was something you posted. And I think it was like a year like a—one of those classics like, hey, copy and paste this and answer the questions. And one of the things of like, what do you think will happen in five years? Where are you be in five years? And I think I put like, I doubt it will happen, but like maybe I'll be up to get married, is like one of the options. And I look back at that I was like, oh, fuck yeah, I feel like maybe a lot of us have just sort of pushed that particular trauma like down like, oh, we don't have to deal with that anymore.

JAZZA: Yeah, 100%.

ROWAN: But I would love to—I—I agree with you like I would really, really love to see a movie that had a budget behind it, that had like a real consideration of the script and time for actors to actually, act more than one take.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: Take on something like this in a way, could be really interesting.

JAZZA: A little bit of investment. Because I—yeah, I really, really appreciated them like addressing

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: So then that touching scene happens then they get together, the end.

ROWAN: Yeah, that's literally it.

JAZZA: Shall we review this movie, give it the ratings?

ROWAN: Yeah, go on.

JAZZA: Cool.

[theme]

JAZZA: Here with the Queer Movie Podcast, we have a rating system where we award a movie that we talked about up to six of the original six colored bars of the rainbow flag. They are red for life. Orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, blue for harmony and purple for spirit. Rowan?

ROWAN: Uhh.

JAZZA: How—how many bars are you gonna give in and which colors?

ROWAN: It's like one, maybe? I on this first movie. And you know what, I'm gonna go with spirit.

JAZZA: Uh-huh.

ROWAN: Just for that last final attempt at doing something. They got that—they had that spirit, the Christmas spirit. You know? I think that's what I'm gonna go with. It was just this wasn't even like I could hate watch it. Like it was fundamentally just like very boring to me. And this is also from someone like I—I'm sure I've mentioned this on the podcast before. I'm a fan fiction bitch. I—It's not that I don't do or rom-com or whatever. Like I'm an asexual, fanfiction bitch. So everything I'm reading is like the opposite of what people think fanfiction is, when they're like, the hardcore sex happens. I'm like, I just want people to, to fall in love and like all these misunderstandings to be cleared up la la la. So I was primed to be interested in this shit. But it just wasn't it. There was like so many random subplots that didn't go anywhere. There was just— I didn't feel the chemistry. It was frustrating to me. So yeah, sadly, it's a one for me. Jazza, how about you?

JAZZA: Yeah, I—I want to give it to more than one. And I've just sat here looking at the six bars of the rainbow flag and their meanings, and being like, is there anything else I can give it? And I don't think that is.

ROWAN: Actually, you know, you could do, you could give it yellow for sun because of the fact that was clearly filmed in the summer months, when the sun was in very bright for a winter. For a winter, so amazing.

JAZZA: No, I'm only going to give it one. I don't think it deserves it. I loved some of the campiness of the main character. And I loved—I liked that end, kind of like political commentary. I— and I liked the fact that you could probably cut this movie into like a trailer for a horror movie. And I really want somebody to do that. But otherwise, it's—it's—this is not the one and it is not for me.

ROWAN: Yeah. Do you know what I—actually didn't know what I loved? I love that this movie exists in theory. I love that there's a Hallmark movie with a gay lead. That's what I'll say about it. That's the best thing I think it's got going for it.

JAZZA: It's still only getting one sto—one

ROWAN: One ball for us.

[theme]

JAZZA: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, then we ask that you consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join the Queer Movie Club, where we do watch along in our Discord each month. But that is only the bare minimum of what you can get. At high levels, you can also get our movie recommendations and a monthly newsletter with a curation of all of the gay shit we found on the internet.

ROWAN: So thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon. We adore you. You're the best. Thank you very much for making this happen. This absolute chaos. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions. So make sure you check out all of that other awesome podcasts full of both fun and frivolity.

JAZZA: Make sure you follow and subscribe to this podcast, so that you are primed for our next episode. Happy holidays.

ROWAN: Oh yeah, it's the holidays. That's why we did a Christmas related film. This is why we suffered in this way. To watch the one Christmas related gay film from this year. I remember now. Good to know.

JAZZA: Bloody hell. Okay, let's go.

[theme]

Movie That Made Me Queer with Bren Frederick

8 december 2022 | 62 min

In which Rowan dives deep with the founder of the Bi Pan Library, Bren Frederick, to talk about owls, trio-protagonists and bi awakenings in the this week's episode.

We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Find Us Online

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

ROWAN: Before we kick off the episode, we just want to say a huge thank you to our patrons Toby and Jennifer, who have chosen to support us on the highest tier available on our Patreon, Rainbow parents. So, thank you so much for your support and for the support of all our other patrons. Sincerely, you help us keep the show going. So thank you very much and we have a link to the Patreon in the description if you would like to check it out.

[theme]

ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst and LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of our guest's specials. Today we are joined by a very special guest who will be answering the question what movies made you queer? I am very excited to welcome, Bren Frederick.

BREN: Hello.

ROWAN: Yay. who, amongst basically professional bisexuals, um in same way that I'm a professional homosexual. The founder of the Bi Pan library, which you've never heard of, I beg you to google it. It is an incredible resource for kind of Bi Pan and M-spec books. Chef's kiss, wonderful staff, we love to see it. And so you know, also my friends. So I was like, please come on the podcast, love to chat to my friends in a professional capacity.

BREN: I'm very happy to be here.

ROWAN: So as we normally do at the very start of these episodes, when we talk about the what movies made you queer format, we like to also specify you know, queer is—queer is not necessarily how everyone identifies. So what words do you use to de— to describe your identity? What is the official title of this episode? Bren Frederick, movies that made me blank.

BREN: Movies that made me bisexual, genderqueer. Those are the main words that I use. I also just use queer as sort of a blanket term for myself. All of that would be accurate.

ROWAN: Amazing. We have had a fair few people who have done these guests' former episodes. And they—some of them have doubled up with the—the kind of things that they wanted to talk about. There's a lot of people where it's like, oh, these— these particular movies or these particular characters really sparked something in —in many bisexual people, I only know, many queer people. You did send me some previews of some of the stuff you're going to talk about, and I am potentially—potentially going to bet, put money on the fact that no one else is going to have your choices because you have chosen some truly wild, wild picks. And so I would love to hear about your first one. In whatever order you decide, most hinge to least hinge. Um, earliest to most recent. What have you fancy, go for it?

BREN: Okay, well, my fri—for my first movie, I've chosen Hoot from 2006. It's based on the novel Hoot by Carl Hiaasen. And it's rated a whopping 26% fresh on Rotten Tomatoes.

ROWAN: Oh my God.

BREN: I don't—I think I'm in the wro—on the wrong podcast for anyone to know what movie I'm talking about.

ROWAN: on the wrong planet?

BREN: Have you seen this film, Rowan?

ROWAN: No, I had no idea it existed and you sent me—I'm glad that you didn't send me just that information that you sent me the poster because I feel like I got more of a sense of what was going on. In that, it also has some quite famous people in it. This isn't some like—

BREN: Before they were.

ROWAN: Like random indie movie that like no—we've never heard of. Like these are— these are some big names.

BREN: Yeah, like surely Brie Larson has been mentioned on this podcast before, surely.

ROWAN: If not an injustice has been done.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: But yeah, Brie—Brie Larson in it.

BREN: Yep. This is I believe her first like main role in a film, I could be wrong. And she has a pop single over the credits.

ROWAN: Okay, the fact I didn't know that it's truly—

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: Truly a—an injustice. Absolutely. So okay, what is the plot of this movie? Like, what—if—if people are sitting down thinking wow, 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, that seems like a gem. Brie Larson singing a pop song. I'd watch it. What is—what is actually going on in this movie?

BREN: Right. So it isn't a musical. We'll start there. It was just this thing that happened in the Arts where like, leading girls and women would sing a song and it would go over the credits. And we just all accepted that was how it was. I don't know if everyone was trying to start a pop career at that point. So the main character is our boy Roy Eberhardt, played by Logan Lerman, who you might know is—

ROWAN: A not a star-studded cast.

BREN: Percy Jackson himself, which I never saw, because um, yeah.

ROWAN: You heard the rumors about how bad it was. And you were like, I will—I will simply no, be watching this.

BREN: No, it was uh. Well, I grew up very conservative Christian. So it was like, pagan nonsense.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah. No, that's of course. Yeah. e—equally valid as an excuse, I guess.

BREN: Essentially, it's about a—there's three kids who, Roy, Beatrice, the bear, and Beatrice's stepbrother, who's only known as Mullet Fingers. Mullet as in—

ROWAN: Wha—what?

BREN: Mullet isn't a, the little fish.

ROWAN: Yeah, okay, that makes more sense in the little—like little tiny wigs on all his fingers.

BREN: That's a completely different movie. So they become friends. Roy is new in town, he's not fitting in. He's from Montana. And He's new in Florida. It's set in the Florida Everglades.

ROWAN: Sure, yeah. That seems like a place that exists.

BREN: And I—I could really make an argument for this film being anti-capitalist, anti-cop.

ROWAN: Pro mullet.

BREN: Because, because the center—the center of this plot is these kids are trying to stop a big franchise Pancake House from being built on this little lot that has a bunch of burrowing owls and endangered burrowing owls. Carl Hiaasen, who wrote the book is an environmentalist and really involved in a lot of efforts to save the Florida wetlands. And all of anything that comes from this man is trying to save the birds.

ROWAN: This is—I mean that sounds like a delightful movie.

BREN: Yeah. But—but how did it's make me queer?

ROWAN: the question. Yeah. the wet like, I get that like gay people like birds or whatever, but like, Where's—where's the connection for you here?

BREN: None of these three kids fit into the gender role they're supposed to fit into. And that's not at all central to like, that's not what the—the movie is trying to tell you. But it's the thing that I picked up on as a kid. Roy is very sensitive and gentle and kind and emotional about these little birds. Beatrice is a star athlete at the school, she's a soccer player. She's very tough, all the boys are afraid of her. She can outrun anybody, like, she's—she, and she's known as the bear. She has this very like, masculine, tough nickname. And then Mullet Fingers is a runaway from his family. His family does not understand him, doesn't treat him well. And he would rather go live, like he literally lives like in a swamp, kind of, and feels far more connected to nature and animals than with humanity. And that sort of— is that distance from what you're supposed to be. And also, it's an entirely platonic film. Also, like, there's moments where you might think like, maybe Roy and Beatrice have a crush on each other, maybe near the end. But it's not central at all. And they have this very equal, platonic, caring friendship. At one point, Beatrice like stays the night in Roy's bedroom. They're like, middle schoolers, and they just have a nice, like, emotional conversation. There's no implication of anything romantic there. And it's—it's very, very sweet. And, well that was so important to me as a kid, where I was just kind of drawn to people of any kind as friends, as crushes. And it was so much media at the time, like the 90s. And the arts, was very aggressively gendered, very aggressively, heterosexual.

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: And prescriptive. And this movie didn't do that to me. And I thought I felt so safe there. I watched it so frequently on my little portable DVD player that we would have had at the time.

ROWAN: Okay, so you've seen something truly incredible. Just that and without description. Bren, because you've made me want to watch this movie.

BREN: Watch it with me.

ROWAN: That is 26% on Rotten Tomatoes, we absolutely need to have a, like a Netflix zoom party situation with this because it sounds adorable. And I definitely understand what you mean about the the idea of having these sorts of possibilities put before you, especially ones that didn't fit into this very prescriptive idea that showed you a world where you didn't have to fit into this particular, like mode, this particular type. And I think that that's always so exciting to see that it doesn't necessarily have to be that you are like, oh, yes, this one character is who I am. But just the idea of like, you can have a character who's rejected their family, or you can have a character who is breaking the norms. It doesn't have to be the norms that you want to break, but it still has that element of, you know, something that feels relatable, especially I think, to young queer people that makes complete sense to me.

BREN: Yeah, something I was noticing, as I was looking back over the movies I thought I might talk about today was, I was very drawn to movies with at least three main characters rather than a central protagonist, a hero or heroine. Because if there are three people of any gender, one of them is going to end up sidestepping out of some sort of prescriptive gender rule. Because they need it to be three different dynamic characters. So if there's a man and a woman and then a sidekick of any gender, that sidekick is going to be breaking some sort of gender norm. And I was always the most attached to that third person. And those—those were always the most comfortable to me because I could sort of patchwork together the things that I related to from all of these uh different archetypes I guess.

ROWAN: Yeah, I mean, thinking about just the idea of the like, I'd know the Lizzie McGuire like three relationship kind of teen show element of like you had the—the main girl who was like pretty much the like normal girl kind of thing. The boy who was like, you know, some flavor of boy that probably might end up being a love interest of some kind. And then the lesbian best friend um, truly does the one on the side, which we love to see. So you know Buffy because similar energy with the willow, the lesbian best friend on the side. I love that. I mean, did you have any inkling at the time of like what this meant to you? Or is this one of those things where you look back on it and you're like, oh, boy, this has really given me some a—some info about myself as a child.

BREN: Certainly not the gender part of it. That—that I have, I am still entangling as an adult. But at the time, I was extremely preoccupied with Brie Larson in the film. I had a crush on all of those main characters, like Logan Lerman, and Brie Larson, and whoever the other guy was, he doesn't—I don't think he acts anymore.

ROWAN: Mullet Fingers. He should just be known as Mullet Fingers from now on. Great kid. I don't know. What a guy.

BREN: But I—I was very preoccupied with Beatrice, who she was—she was so tough and cool. She was also feminine. I was very attracted to her, and I couldn't, you know, it was that classic situation of not knowing if you want to be her, or, if you like her. So I would like try to do my hair like her and didn't like it, and didn't know what the deal was with that. So but at the time, like I hadn't—it had not hit my consciousness yet. What it meant that I was so drawn to her or that I was so drawn to like my close female friends with whom I had very intense relationships and didn't understand why they were so intense either. So no, it wasn't conscious at all. I didn't have my first realization that I might like girls, much less all of the rest of it until I was 15, or 16. And that was maybe a week. I had maybe a week where I was thinking a lot about that. And then I repressed it so hard. It didn't come back up again until I was 18 or 19.

ROWAN: I mean, here's the thing. That sucks real hard. But also, as you know, this podcast and me, myself is all about distance from real emotions, and therefore incredible work. Well, honestly, that was—

BREN: I deserve an award.

ROWAN: You really decided to repress it. I knew you committed diligence, you know, years-long repression. Incredible work. Do you have any of these examples that you feel like we're part of that? Either that initial realization or the subsequent realizations later on? Has it been anything that you've really felt like, oh, this is a part of that realization of that feels like it factors into it? Or is it always been sort of before and after the fact?

BREN: I've only had a few that had to do with media. And one of them was a book, which I don't know if you want to talk—me to talk about it.

ROWAN: I—I'll allow it. Considering that you're a librarian, and I guess I'll allow you to talk about this film podcast, this audio-visual podcast.

BREN: Yeah. The—the first book that I read with bisexual main characters, book called Far From You by Tess Sharpe. It's a young adult, mystery thriller, like murder mystery thriller, about a girl whose secret girlfriend is dead. So, you know.

ROWAN: The classic.

BREN: We did bury her. And then later in the book, she starts developing a relationship with a boy. And both of those relationships are treated as equally real, equally emotionally deep. The author is queer herself. And I remember when I read it, I didn't know that about this book before I picked it up. So when I got to this part of the book, where I realized what was happening, and the girls are kissing on the page, I was sitting in a church. And I had this like, this sense of like, collapse around me. There's a stained glass window, you know, to the side of me with a cross on it. And I'm reading this book it's like, just this like, lightning bolt through me of connecting dots suddenly. Um, like every girl in a movie that I've been like really fixated on. And every girl I knew in real life, who was—I was just—I didn't know why I was so drawn to her. And it was very, very intense. And that, that would have been when I was 18-Ish. And that one I couldn't—I couldn't repress after that. It was just—it was too intense, too much at once. I was just old enough, I think to have this sense of like separated identity. I had a job outside the house like I emerged from, from needing to be so self-protective. And it was, it was very scary. I don't know that it was a good experience exactly at the time.

ROWAN: I thin—I mean, I think that it's like with movies. I kind of can understand a sense of understanding of your sexuality through crushes or movie characters or even understanding gender through a kind of gender envy element of the presentation of characters. But I do—but I do understand this element of books to go into the like interiority of someone in a way that movies can't necessarily get to, or sometimes we'll have to use the language of books through like voiceovers, something like that to get to. And so I can absolutely see like, not just the concept of two girls being able to kiss, but just like what was going on inside the mind of a character, while that was happening. That would give it validity that would connect with internal emotions that were happening inside as well.

ROWAN: That's a really good point. I haven't—I hadn't thought about that before. And it is written in first person, I believe. So even—even more of that character's thoughts. Just sort of turn into your thoughts as you're reading and yeah, Hmm. Interesting. Very interesting.

ROWAN: I mean, rebrand the queer book podcast. Coming to you soon the spin-off series. That is really interesting. And also like such a no offense, but you do—that does sound like a scene from YA movie that you just—you just said, you were like yeah, I was in church, and I read and it suddenly connected everything. And I'm like, I can see it now. I can see that montage. You know,

BREN: It's very cinematic.

ROWAN: Watching back to your head.

BREN: Yeah. Yeah. Today, we're gonna talk about the movie of my life.

ROWAN: Hmm. Oh my gosh, love to like really excited for your new movie and your—your new biography, new bio. Bio pickle, biopic. I fully don't—

BREN: I've always said biopic, but—

ROWAN: So have I. And then everyone says—saying biopic, and I was like, oh, no, am I about to embarrass myself in front of film bros? But I saw—I just, you know what, maybe I'll never say the word again. Maybe I'll just pick the pronunciation of the person who says it first within the exact context that I'm in, and it'll be fine. I would love to hear about your next movie pick.

BREN: Alright. Speaking of girls that I had strangely intense friendships with. Princess Diaries.

ROWAN: Were you—were you friends with Anne Hathaway? Is that what we're trying to—is that what's happening?

BREN: Oh man. No. I wish. I did have a huge crush on Anne Hathaway. But specifically, I have picked this film, because of Lily Moskovitz played by Heather Matarazzo. Real-life lesbian.

ROWAN: Confirmed.

BREN: Confirmed lesbian. There is such a great friendship between Lily and Mia in the film, and in the books, which are also very good. And neither of these characters is queer in the movie. I don't think—I don't think there are any even implied queer characters in Princess Diaries that I can remember.

ROWAN: There is uh—I can—I can tell you the Princess Diaries story law keepers here. I think—I believe that there is one mentioned character, which is in the montage scene where they going through—

BREN: In number two.

ROWAN: Number two.

BREN: Yes.

ROWAN: And they're going through and saying like, oh, what are some eligible bachelors for me to marry? And there's one of them where it's like, he's very happy—she's just like, oh, he's very handsome. And the bodyguard says, yeah, his boyfriend thinks so too. And it's like, oh, good for him.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: Okay, moving on.

BREN: Right on. Yes, you're right. You're right. But I think—I think that's it. But Lily is so proudly different, stubbornly different, like different, so on purpose, And has a very close and long friendship with Mia. And through the movie, we see Mia start to change and she starts moving more towards a more feminine presentation, more traditionally attractive presentation, and also towards relationships with boys, which neither of them had really had to worry about before what happens in the film.

ROWAN: No—I mean, not mean, I feel like we can give—I'm gonna spoil the premise of Princess Diaries in case anyone is—for some reason, like, has managed to in life and not understand the premise of Princess Diaries. There's a girl, she finds out that her dad was the prince, and now that he is dead. She, in fact, is meant to be the next ruler of this obscure and fictional European country. And she is plucked out of her life as a high schooler in America and has to be taught by her grandmother, and various teachers how to be a princess, which includes straightening her curly hair, taking off her glasses, like all of these classics, like the transformation tropes really go really hard in this movie.

BREN: They really do.

ROWAN: And that and so like, yeah, what's happening in the movie is that she is being transformed into a literal Princess, like the most feminine, ideal style, kind of caricature that you could think of for better or for worse.

BREN: Yeah, yeah. And some of it, she's fine with and some of it, she feels as ridiculous. And that's—that's an interesting discussion in itself, I think in that film. That she does have to pretend in some ways. And some ways, she embraces the change and sort of figuring out which of these things that I'm conforming to, to identify with and which don't tie. But back to Lilly. Lilly is absolutely furious through a lot of the movie. Because of all these changes, she's very intimidated. And I think feels very defensive of their relationship and how it might change because how Mia looks and acts and her priorities are changing. She's very disdainful of the boy that Mia has such a big crush on for a lot of the movie. And I just remember relating to that so much as a kid who—when my friends had crushes on somebody else, or, you know, the special friends that I had a special connection to that putting us, could definitely couldn't be put into a simple and short word that we have for that situation. I mean, whoever that friend had a crush on was my mortal enemy. Like, the—there was no greater betrayal. Why did she need him? I—I didn't need somebody else. I was happy. I had this friendship. And like I didn't— I could list off a couple boy's names to like get, get people off my tracks I guess. But that was a feeling. And that movie that—that I always projected onto it was, that Lilly was feeling what I was feeling when I was young.

ROWAN: And this is really interesting, right? Because this is a character who's not portrayed in the movie like this is correct. Right? So in the movie—

BREN: Exactly.

ROWAN: She says, she says things—like she has a talk show that's called Shut up and Listen. Like it's—it's very much—she's portrayed as like this annoying. bullheaded self-righteous feminist. Like, if she likes she's going too far, like me as the one in the middle who has their head screwed on right? Who's finding the you know, the middle ground and Lilly's the one who's just being too extreme, which I think is really interesting that like, even though the sort of implications of this movie, in terms of like, that element of Lilly's personality is not something that you're necessarily encouraged to appreciate. That you still found an appreciation for it, even without being kind of like spoon-fed to you as like, oh, this is a character— characters you're meant to support, that you still found a connection to it?

BREN: Oh, yeah, I certainly wasn't like Lilly was meant to be such an extreme character. That is like, has a good heart, but it goes too far. Whereas Mia is also an activist and also like, remains, you know, she still has feminism at her heart, but she's doing it in this much more controlled, tamed feminine way. I actually think—you know what I ac—I actually think that like, as much as I love this movie, still, I think that it also did kind of hush me up a little bit. Like it, both—It both made me queer and made me quiet for a little bit longer. Because it showed so much of a more respectable way to be different, be a girl, and be an activist. Is that like, you find the respectable way to do it? You aren't too loud. So like not to criticize the movie. I came here to praise but.

ROWAN: I mean, I think—here's the thing, though, like, because you can have movies that were influential to you. That you are like, these are still not perfect. Or like even— even that they were influential to you, because you were like, oh, absolutely not, like this has made me angry. And this is like been a part of my journey in that way. Like, I feel like all of those kinds of things are very valid.

BREN: Oh, sure. I don't think any of the movies that I'm bringing today are—are perfect.

ROWAN: Not even Hoot?

BREN: Not even hoot. It's a little too sensitive—sensitive to one of the main characters who was a cop.

ROWAN: Okay, I see. I see. And then at that time, when you—when you were watching, I'm imagining that this was not something that you were like, consciously being like, I guess a crush or like, oh, yes, a character who is like me, because I'm different. Because of these reasons. It was—it was kind of free that realization I'm assuming.

BREN: Yeah. Well, because all the characters who I relate to now, I look back on these films, I'm like, I related to that person, like maybe on a gender way. At the time, I thought I was relating to the other character who was more respectable, more feminine, and straighter. That's who I thought I was relating to, which was—was not the case. So it's—it's this backward patchwork thing. Like I was saying about who where I thought that from a gender perspective, I was relating to the character I was attracted to.

ROWAN: Hmm. Yeah.

BREN: And also, maybe I thought that I was attracted to male characters when really it was that I related to them in a gender way.

ROWAN: Oh, what a mood.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: So I—I feel like I have that energy of like, relating, like thinking that I fancied the—actually yeah, thinking about it. The—the two examples I gave earlier, Gordo from Lizzie McGuire or Xander from. The idea of like, oh, yeah, I'm attracted to these men. No, I wasn't and it was because it was like, okay, these are like awkward nerds who are like, not lucky in romance. It's not lucky in life, just sort of chilling out, not necessarily feeling like anything special. And I was like oh okay, maybe now I can acknowledge the fact that this was not because I had a crush on these boys, it's because I was like oh no I'm too much like this. Too much this energy. Not even not necessarily the gender way, which is a ner—eh— personality way. And also like them having these—let's say Xander because he was a bit weird about his having crushes on people and I really didn't kind of have that sort of energy. But Gordo has very like quiet, a very quiet crush on Lizzy through much of the series. Justice for Gordo, truly a campaign like, they were meant to be doing a remake of that show. And if—if she had not been married to Gordo, I genuinely think that there are people—people that would have been Ryan's. So I guess it's glad—it's good that it got canceled because I don't know if they needed to take that risk. Those two end games, the original OTP. Love— love this two. Anyway, not this episode is not about me and my for heterosexual characters from my childhood to get together, it's about you and your movies that made you queer. So do you have a third one to—to bring to the table?

BREN: Well, speaking of whether or not you're attracted to men, and whether this fictional male character is actually attractive. This has been one of the hardest things to untangle for me, much harder actually, then being attracted to women. And I keep talking about this in this very like binary gendered way. But I think that's—that's kind of just what happens to you and how you end up being forced to talk about bisexuality. I wanted to talk about the Hunger Games series and love triangles.

ROWAN: That came out of absolutely nowhere and I love to. I— we love a good love triangle discussion on here.

BREN: I didn't—I didn't warn you about this?

ROWAN: No, you didn't. We've not had uh people necessarily talk about love triangles in these types of guest episodes. But we have had some hot takes about love triangles, which is always fun.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: So I love—I love to talk about good love triangle. What was going on with the Hunger Games for you?

BREN: So I think this is gonna turn into a hot take situation.

ROWAN: Love it.

BREN: So I was not a shipper when it came—when it came to The Hunger Games. Like I don't have a strong feeling either direction. Gale, Peeta, whatever. Huge crush on Jennifer Lawrence in the film, though.

ROWAN: Yeah, correct.

BREN: Of course. She's a woman and she looks like a cat, like in the face. And that's my type. But Katniss is pulled between two men, which feels I think for the majority of viewers, like a very heterosexual situation. But I had so many feelings about it when I first saw it in theaters, which was when I believe I was in like my first relationship with a man at the time. Especially when the later films started coming out. She is like kind of caught between two men, but it's more—it's more of a love quadrangle, and there's a man, there's a man, there's Katniss, and there's trauma. And the trauma is much more important relationship there in the films. It's about—a lot of it is about trauma, much more than any of it is about romance. But the relationship with Peeta throughout the series could be real, could not be real, we don't know. Because it's so— it is sensationalized. It is a performance, even if there's something real underneath it. And through the years, uh I'm—I am married to a man. And there's a lot of pressure to behave one way or another, about that relationship and in that relationship from all sides. And the performance of that relationship. And that relationship with my own gender in tandem with my partner's gender. And what that means other people think about us. What it makes other people think about our sex life. What it makes other people think about the roles in our relationship, it kind of—at a certain point, it starts feeling like it doesn't matter what that really is, it matters more what other people outside, whether that's like, in the fiction of The Hunger Games, where it's an audience, it's the government, it's the rebellious faction. Or in real life, people watching the film and projecting what they want to be real in—in the fiction. I feel caught in that and I got so emotional, and through that whole series, as a young adult, I think when that was coming out. And still, like, if I watch it again, I still feel that way. Because it feels that the—the perception of what the relationship is, is more important than the reality of what it is and the people inside of it. And how like that pressure and that assumption kind of dissolves what's real—or it can dissolve what's real. It starts feeling like it doesn't matter that much inside. I'm getting very deep about this like, like deeply emotional.

ROWAN: No, but that's—that's fair. And like also the like that is a motif that is like quite literally baked into the plot of those later films because of Peeta's memory loss.

BREN: Yes.

ROWAN: like what and the uh—and them having to him having to rely on her, and her having to rely on him to—to remember what's real, like they have that game like real or not real. So that actually is like a whole other level of like, reality and like relationship on to it.

BREN: The real or not real makes me cry.

ROWAN: I—I like oh my god. Now I'm like, maybe I just want to—maybe I wanted to just do a movie day where I just marathon every one of these movies that we kept mentioning. Because every one of them I'm like, either I've already seen it. And I'm like, yes, amazing, or I haven't and I'm like, it sounds so good.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: But like I also—uh I feel like The Hunger Games even though again, you're right that there is this element of like, wow, so heterosexual. So like, this is the not at all and maybe you would think that the queer people would be into. The first Hunger Games book was one of the books that I did for my dissertation. Tragically, too early, I would say because my dissertation at university was on YA dystopia before the Hunger Games blew up. So I was doing about the book, and the movie had like only I think the first movie had just come out. But it wasn't like a big thing at all. So there was like no writing on it. And now I'm sure that I could do a much better job with—with a topic that people have actually written about. It wasn't just like my 18-year-old self being like, I want to write about dystopias for teenagers.

BREN: So ahead of the curve.

ROWAN: I know right? But I do think when you read the books, there is a really strong sense in the books of what I would consider to be an obvious like a romantic element to Katniss's character.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: Because like when she's making the decision about who she's going to be with, it is almost entirely divorced from romance. Like it is entirely a practical, like, platonic decision. So she's essentially like the—the decision for her a lot of the time comes down to why would I be with Gale when he can hunt and that's what he brings to a relationship when I can hunt. But Peeta can bake, like what—like that's like the practicalities that she's thinking about it, as it's not as a romantic relationship as such. She's like, I like both of these guys. Like I'm frie—I was friends with Gale for a long time. And I've come to really care about Peeta as a friend. But who am I spending my life with, that's a practical decision?

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: And so I—I see so many ways in which those movies and outside characters like Johanna for example, can be—have these elements of gender and sexuality linked to them su—in such interesting ways. So yeah, that's it. I—I—I agree with you definitely that there is something in those movies even if you don't necessarily—even when you were first watching them that you didn't necessarily clock it. That a lot of queer people I think probably had some feelings about.

BREN: Yeah. There's a lot to sort of hunt and gather in—in between the lines. I think. It also like—

ROWAN: What I feel around.

BREN: Want to talk about like gender? Katniss outside of the games has one outfit. It's like a plain shirt, a jacket, a sweater, and some pants. And mostly she has a weapon.

ROWAN: Hmm.

BREN: And she has one hairstyle.

ROWAN: Yeah, she's doing a lot of like compensating for her dead father's like—

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: The role of the hunter.

BREN: Oh right.

ROWAN: The role of the patriarch of the family like taking responsibility, protecting your— like your family, like all of these sort of elements of things that are praised in men. Katniss is like taken on herself as part of her.

BREN: Katniss is the strong silent man of the house.

ROWAN: Truly. Like actually, you're completely right. Yeah.

BREN: Dang.

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: And then she is in drag for to—to be in the competition.

ROWAN: Yes, there's—there's these scenes again in the book where she's getting her like nails done for the first time and getting her hair done. And unlike the—the Mia Thermopolis of Princess Diaries, very different transformation scene into the Princess of the District 12 kind of angle. There's no like, we take this and this and give you a princess. It's her being like gross, why all are these people touching me?

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: She's like oh, only emotion during those scenes. She's not like wow, it looks so beautiful. It's like not—not a vibe for her.

BREN: She's really not interested. Yeah, I loved the movie. I never finished the book series. And I was to be a book person, but.

ROWAN: How could you? I've—I genuinely really do feel like the—I need to reread the books again. But I think that they definitely weren't—the movies were definitely picking up on the exploration of stuff that was happening in the books. It was very much focused on her trauma. You're absolutely right. Like the—the books, the movies both they were like, hey, this girl is not okay. Which I also have a lot of respect for, because I think there are lot of movies that are these big blockbusters now like superhero movies, things like that. Don't necessarily take the time to be like hmm, but what would happen if you had gone through all of this nonsense. Like how would you be feeling, uh probably real messed up? You as psychologically not be okay. And so I think it's always—there's always like a real sense of excitement when those things are dealt with in a—in a way that feels truthful, which I think is why you've got the movies that do get so well received. In terms of those plotlines are the ones that actually deal with it in an interesting way. So like, if you're going to talk about Ironman 3 and Tony's like PTSD. If you're going to talk about the new Black Panther movie, and the examination of grief in that if you want to talk about even like Civil War, and Steve and Buckys like very traumatic relationship. I think there's—that's like a reason why those things are generally considered to be elevated slightly above the others, is because they're going to deal with trauma in a way that feels authentic, even in a blockbuster.

BREN: Yeah. That's why I liked the ending of— I don't know. Actually, I don't know how the books end, but I'm going to spoil the ending of the films.

ROWAN: Do it! It's my podcast, and I decide we'll get spoiled. And I've decided you can spoil the end of The Hunger Games.

BREN: Well, Katniss and Peeta ended up together, and they have kids. And to me, it makes the most sense in the world, they're practically the only people in the world who are going to understand what the other went through. They understand each other's trauma very intimately. And they have relied on each other for so long, to gauge what is real or what is not real, to remember what happens to them. And to see the truth, to see each other. This sounds like an of course thing, but they understand the ins and outs of their relationship before and during the games. That—that alienation from who—who they are, what their feelings really are, or that happened during the games when they had an audience watching them and demanding a very like clean, and pretty, and perfect heterosexuality from them. They understand that pressure and we're the only two that were under that pressure like that. And they understand that.

ROWAN: Hot take. Hot take here. Katniss and Peeta are a tea-for-tea relationship. They— they understand each other's trauma, they understand the performance that they've had to go through together in the public eye. That's my hot take

BREN: link.

ROWAN: Give me that link. I—I'm sure someone has ridden that ship. That's—because that's exactly what you're saying, right? The idea of like, you have a shared trauma, you have a shared way of like, having to navigate public perceptions of you. And like, there are some things that only you—only people who have gone through similar stuff to you can understand. That like, this is really— this is really feeling like a yeah, queer people having that understanding of each other through trauma elements. So.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: I mean.

BREN: I could see it. I could see.

ROWAN: I can see it.

BREN: I could also see Bi for Bi.

ROWAN: Hmm. Yes. They were both—they just bond over how hot Gale is, They're like, not for—not for us in the long term. He did do some war crimes, but like he was all right. We can all admit it. Finnick as well, he was pretty good.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: Just all of this, Johanna in the list.

BREN: Yeah, of course.

ROWAN: That was crazy type.

BREN: Of course.

ROWAN: Was everyone in the games? Haymitch once in a dream.

BREN: Oh, Haymitch, 100%. Here's the thing. Haymitch is hot, I'm sorry.

ROWAN: Okay. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.

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ROWAN: At this point in the podcast, we would like to thank a few people who got us where we are today and keeping us on the airwaves. So thanks first to Squarespace for sponsoring the podcast. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-one place to do just that. You can use it to build a site, set up an online shop, or connect with your audience. We actually use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website. But I think even cooler is the fact that I use it to make my own website. Because I have some really cute pictures of me on that. I've never been relaxed a day in my life. So I have a lot of projects and social platforms and things that I'm on. But Squarespace lets you not only link it to your social media, but also connect it entirely so that you can display posts from your social profiles on your site, in real-time, plus a ton of analytics and insights that can help you grow your brand. If you need to figure out like where are people coming from when they visit your site? What do they search to get there, and what keywords are being used to find you? Where are the sales coming from? If you have a shop with them, you know, that kind of stuff. They also have some really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. I am very much not a techy person. So I also was very thankful for all of the templates and the easy designer tools that they have, including making sure that the website does not that like absolute trash on mobile. Because you know, nothing's worse than you making this beautiful website on your computer and then you look on mobile and like your incredible gallery is just like one massive picture at a time going down before any of your text, like just absolutely a mess. So easy to do with Squarespace, not a problem whatsoever. So check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch use offer code Queer Movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. I would also love to thank our second sponsor, yes, that's why we have two sponsors today. Look at what's going up in the world. Brilliant. So we all know the stereotype that gay people can't do maths, right? Like that's—we've acknowledged that this is a stereotype. And yeah sure, there are some outliers who are, you know, naturally, they just haven't and maths coming out of their brains. But some of us need a little bit of help. So I thought that it might be interesting for us to introduce something that could help us on this journey. That is brilliant.org, which can help you to learn more about math, science, and computer science in bite size, interactive ways. They have quite literally 1000s of lessons with new ones added every month, including one that I was looking at, called the scientific thinking course, using science and engineering in the real world to solve puzzles and apply ideas practically. Whether that's figuring out how like different structures are built or finding your way out of a hall of mirrors. If you're curious about how things work, whether that is computers all the way up to the cosmos itself, then brilliant is a great place to start. topics range from Physics to Computer Science and everything beyond. It's also very visual, which I very much appreciate. Because just reading about science stuff, I feel like I don't really understand what's going on. Cannot make pictures in my brain. And it's also very interactive. So it's very much designed to help make lessons very understandable, even for beginners. You can dip in and out also because there's bite-sized lessons that you can finish in 15 minutes. So if you find yourself being like, oh, I could get a little cheeky hit of dopamine by scrolling through Tiktok for two hours, maybe spend 15 minutes of that two hours doing—doing a fun little lesson learning a little bit about our world in the universe. To get started for free. You can visit brilliant.org/queermoviepodcast. Click on the link in the description and the first 200 of you will get 20% of Brilliant annual premium subscription. And speaking of science, the last thing we want to give a little shout-out to in this section is an incredible podcast which is part of the Multitude collective that the Queer Movie Podcast is also in which is called Exolore. If you haven't heard about it before. Every other week, astrophysicist/folklorist Dr. Moiya McTier explores fictional worlds by building them with a panel of expert guests. Interviewing professional world builders or reviewing the merits of worlds that have already been created. Incredible. There's humor, there's learning through humor, you will gain an appreciation for how special our planet already is. You can subscribe today by searching Exolore in your podcast app or going to exolorepod.com.

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ROWAN: Okay, so that was that was absolutely delightful little palate cleanser of a movie, which people would know um and heard. It was a big book all I feel like yeah, Princess Diaries also, it was a good one. But I—potentially, I know you said you got two more. I feel like are these two gonna be more unhinged to early 2000s terrible movies. Or are we going with something more well-known?

BREN: The next two I have are actually queer.

ROWAN: Huh. What? That's not healthy series 101.

BREN: Canonically.

ROWAN: People come here with a straight movie. What are you doing? Okay.

BREN: I gave you some very straight movies, Rowan. I don't think

ROWAN: I—I can't and I shall not. Okay, so give us the penultimate option.

BREN: Alright. I want to talk about Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman, which is a—

ROWAN: Oooh, talking of superheroes.

BREN: Yeah. So a polyamorous romance about the creator of Wonder Woman. A queer icon . I—I mean, I'd never seen a movie like this before.

ROWAN: Hmm. Yeah, no, this is—this is a, a movie that you would expect. Like if you knew about the biography of the people involved, that you would expect that it would be like, straight washed, like sanitized.

BREN: Yes.

ROWAN: Like very much so, that it wouldn't really tell the true story. That it would try and make it like, I know weird inspirational elements to it, rather than So but like, how was your experience with it? Like, did you know about any of the background beforehand? Or did you go into this movie, not knowing what to expect?

BREN: I went into it. I knew what, like—I knew that it was going to be a poly romance. I didn't know the full story of like, how it went. And I went in expecting a devastating ending. Because at this point, this would have been maybe I was like 25 or 26 when I watched this. And I—I just expected like the pattern of how these things go, that—

ROWAN: He'd been burned before.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: He'd be burned again.

BREN: Yeah. Historical, biographical film, about two women and a man falling in love. All with each other, was going to end with devastation. And there is like there is sadness in the ending. But it's not completely sad. After so many films where I have had to patch work together some sort of fake representation in my head of what I am, something to relate to. Even in like lots of other love triangle films where in the end, you have to choose one. One of them will be, you know correct or one of them will be canonical. Professor Marston and the Wonder Woman is just—there's a couple and they fall in love with another woman. And it kind of just works out for them all in the end. Like they go to their death altogether. In the end of the film, the man dies, and the women—

ROWAN: What?

BREN: Are together for the rest of their life.

ROWAN: This is so cute. Oooh, this is truly just like—like you mentioning.

BREN: This experience of not having to, like watch a choice be made and understand in your heart, that the choice is telling you what you're supposed to do.

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: That's prescriptive. Like you can only have one.

ROWAN: Yeah, this is the right thing. Like this is what you should be doing.

BREN: This is the right thing, the wife. Professor Marston's wife should have had to choose. That's—that's—that's what would happen in any other movie.

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: Is that she would have to choose between this woman and this man? And she doesn't.

ROWAN: I truly like so shocked by this when I—when it first was people talking about it in that it was coming out. And that it wasn't like it was a very classic, mid-budget kind of movie. Like it was—It wasn't some like underground. Like, oh, we've had to do it ourselves. Like in the dark of the night kind of situation. That was like so exciting.

BREN: Yeah. I think that even if— even if you're monogamous and bisexual, I think it—it's a very beautiful experience. Because in so much BI media that is about specifically bisexual women coming to a realization that they're queer. That realization often comes at the cost of a relationship that they're already in with a man, which is fine, and a real thing that happens. And like I have not, I'm not saying that can't be a good story. But when it's like maybe the main story that you see, that's also positive about bisexuality, that can be like pretty painful. If you're already in a relationship that's fulfilling and good, that the only way there is to explore your sexuality is to blow up your life, that you already have. And maybe you're—or happy with more or less. But in this book, they discover something new. And their relationship is strengthened by it.

ROWAN: I—I love that.

BREN: It's—it's very beautiful. It's very beautiful. And also watching it—it's also not just the beginning of that relationship. It's—it's not a romantic story, where it ends with a wedding. It ends with, they create a life together, and they age together. They raise children together, they have a queer middle age.

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: You know, and although in many cases like their life, and their relationship does make them unsafe, or it makes it difficult for them to be successful, or it—it puts them in danger. In other ways, they also find people who accept them and understand them. And they find a lot of fulfillment with each other, and their children love them. And it's—it's just like, the idea of a queer middle age, the idea of a bisexual middle age also because so much bisexual fiction of—of any format is about young bisexual people.

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: That meant so much to me watching it in my mid 20s. Truly unable to imagine what the rest of my life looked like as a bi person. So I don't know, it's—it's lovely it's also— it's also kinky like that didn't really factor in, but I feel like people should know

ROWAN: But we're going to add that.

BREN: People should know.

ROWAN: Um, I was little kinky. I—I yeah cause I'm thinking about the like shows or media that I've that I know of that have this like poly element to them. That are more magic so like the ending of Sense Eight songs a love triangle with just being like what if we all were in a relationship together? We love to see it. And again, it has that, that element of like we're strengthening a relationship. This is not something that's going to be bought that's going to turn to jealousy. This is not something that's like okay, we need you to break up with these guys. You can be with this guy, it very much was like okay, actually, we each individually within this relationship have a relationship to each other. That feels dynamic and interesting, and fulfilling and respectful.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: And then also Iron Widow, which is, a YA book that came out this year, which ends in a polyamorous relationship between the main girl and the two guys.

BREN: Incredible.

ROWAN: 10 out of 10.

BREN: It's so good.

ROWAN: Like the most— it's like, it is so funny because it's the classic like, best friend from childhood who she didn't consider to be an option until he was. And then brooding bad boy with a secret soft side and sight like all the classic marks of YA love triangle and then they simply wam, what if they just all kiss? What it's got to do on what's happening?

BREN: It's good shit.

ROWAN: 10 out of 10 and—

BREN: Incredible.

ROWAN: More of that, please. We'd love to see it.

BREN: Please.

ROWAN: And also I really like the fact that we have like, she's explicitly bisexual within it. But she's not made to be in a love triangle with a man and a woman to like, prove that, that's how her bisexuality works. It's like, no, no, she's also like figuring out that she likes women. But right now, there are two guys that she fancies.

BREN: Yeah.

ROWAN: And that, that can be their relationship that they have.

BREN: Yeah, and the—and the book like ends that way.

ROWAN: I was like doing a lot of like kiss, kiss. I know that you're like, you know, wearing giant mech suits and like fighting monsters and all this stuff. I'm like, kiss, kiss, kiss. You know, I really know what to appreciate. And these—these incredible science fiction epics that I am mentioning. And I'm like, what if everyone just had a nice time? And they got to kiss people that want to kiss.

BREN: There's also a real like, gender fucky element to, to Iron Widow.

ROWAN: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

BREN: We're talking about books again. We're doing it again, Rowan.

ROWAN: So um, so so this is again the—this is the—what is it, like a backdoor pilot where they try and do like, spin-off. Like this is the backdoor pilot for queer book podcast. I think we've got time for one more option if you've got another movie that you want us to talk about.

BREN: Yeah, well, let's end with gender.

ROWAN: Let's end with gender.

BREN: End with gender. The end of gender now. So this morning, I've rewatched this because I had only seen it once in my life, but it like made a real impact. And that's Victori/Victoria, starring Julie Andrews.

ROWAN: The Julie Andrews movie.

BREN: Yes.

ROWAN: I haven't seen it. But would you like to explain to the lovely people at home? What— what is it about?

BREN: Well, it's a little bit of a tangle, isn't it? Julie Andrews plays Victoria, who—she's a singer, and she's unable to get work. And she develops this friendship with a gay man, who through a series of unfortunate and—and—and complicated events, she ends up being forced to cross-dress, which we love that trope, don't we? And while she's cross-dressing, he has this idea that they try to get her work by passing her off as a man. Who can who ha—who just has a very high register to his voice so that she can do that basically a cross-dressing act. And they pursue this she's a woman pretending to be a man, pretending to be a woman throughout the whole thing. So there's—there's—

ROWAN: There's layers.

BREN: There's layers, and then there's also a man who's is very attracted to her when she's a man playing a woman. And he has a whole like fucked up thing about how— how he relates to her and himself and—and how he deals with his own sexuality. In this scenario, which that part of the movie, throw it in the trash.

ROWAN: Okay, love that.

BREN: Throw it in the trash. It's—it's—it's—there's—there's some unfortunate things with this film. And there's also a lot of beauty. I think when you first see Julie Andrews, fully dressed up in her like pinstripe suit and—and dapper little hat. She is coming out of a wardrobe and she punches a man in the face.

ROWAN: Amazing.

BREN: Which—

ROWAN: That's gender.

BREN: That's gender. But as the movie is so much about how gender and perception of gender is very malleable. And how people li—like how much context is important to how people perceive you. And there's a lot of incredible lines by the—the gay mair—main character, Toddy. He's like this aging gay performer. I think he's a singer. He's—he's old. He's poor at this point. He's not super successful and teaming up with Victoria, like gets in that success again, but they also have a very real and—and close emotional relationship. There's so many great lines from him. And there's this one scene where they're walking down the street together. The first time she's walked down a street as a man. And he's talking to her about how there's so many ways to be a man. She's convinced she can't pass as a man because she doesn't talk right or walk right or, you know, she doesn't have this without anatomy. And he gives her this pep talk. This basically says like, there are all kinds of ways to be a man. There's all kinds of men who act all kinds of ways. Men love and live in so many different ways. And people see what they expect to see. There's so much interesting to dissect. Now I watched this when I was probably 18. I—my first job was at a used bookstore. And we also got DVDs and at the used bookstore. And so I stole this from my job.

ROWAN: Wow.

BREN: Because I was living with my very homophobic parents. And I stole the DVD from work in order to watch it because I'd never seen anything like that. And it—it was the first time I'd ever heard any of these sentiments. There's like—there's a, there's a line where—where Victoria talks about how homosexuality is only a sin to pious men and terrified heterosexuals. And that, like open my brain in this new way of like, oh, it's fear. Oh, I'm afraid. It's not that I thought something was wrong. It wasn't that people around me necessarily even like had any justification for thinking that this was wrong. It was that they were afraid, and what were they afraid of?

ROWAN: Yeah.

BREN: So these two repeating themes or elements through the movie, which is like one, Julie Andrews's character will sometimes release a cockroach from her purse to try to get free food and things like that in restaurants. But cockroaches come up at various points as this thing you can introduce to a scene and suddenly everyone is like a fight will break out, people will be yelling, screaming, the scene is disrupted. And there's also this repeated thing where Victoria will sing a very high note, and it will break all the glass in the room. It reflected to me how behaving differently, speaking differently introducing queerness into any of the spaces in my life at the time, because I didn't have a lot of queer friends, or possibly—possibly any at that point, would like ruin the scene. That if I release this—this thing into the room, it causes chaos. And that is what people are afraid of. That is what Heterosexuals are terrified of. And it started sort of opening up that like, well, maybe it's not reasonable at all for that—for people to be scared of this. Maybe this is not hurting anybody actually. Like I said, I only saw this film once. Before I rewatched it.

ROWAN: But it had an effect, clearly.

BREN: It—it really did. Because—because it was—it was more than just vibes. It isn't explicitly queer film. And it doesn't like, well, there are certainly homophobic and transphobic elements to it, like 100% it also is largely quite positive towards the queer characters. Toddy, the gay man main character ends with—with a partner, and nothing happens to them. They're okay. They—they just live life together from there. It was so different from anything I'd seen before. There was no need to patchwork anything together.

ROWAN: Yeah. End it.

BREN: Yeah. It planted a lot of seeds that have only really come to fruition now, like—like in my late 20s, like lots of those really started to grow and feel real. And feel like something that I could claim and stand really solidly in. So thanks, Julie Andrews.

ROWAN: Thanks, Julie. Oh, in two of these movies from you.

BREN: She is.

ROWAN: She is she's in Princess Diaries as well. Truly, Julie is the MVP of this episode.

BREN: So much to thank Julie Andrews for.

ROWAN: Truly. Um, thank you so much and like speaking of thanking, thank you for being on this podcast, because that was amazing. I feel like we went to so many different places, had such a good discussion, you bought some excellent choices to the—to the show, including your books, but you know, for your I'll allow it.

BREN: We're not literate around here.

ROWAN: And thank you so much for sharing all of that, because that's fascinating. And I know that a lot of people are going to see themselves in, you know, maybe not the exact example of Hoot. Although, you know, we never know. But in that sense of understanding the outsider, like having a connection to these characters, and not necessarily knowing why like all of these elements, which I think is something that comes up again and again in these episodes. And I love to see what weird and wonderful things people have her bought to it. So thank you very much for joining me.

BREN: Of course, this was really fun. Everybody go watch Hoot from 2006.

ROWAN: And when I suddenly like a weird uptick in views and they're like, the producers are like in the background be like, how did this happen?

BREN: We got to get the Rotten Tomatoes score up everybody. I expect to see at least a 27% after this episode.

ROWAN: Otherwise, what was the point? This whole thing has been a campaign, an introduction to a campaign to get it up to 27%. So where—where can people find you if they would like to find you/ your work online? Where should they go?

BREN: Alright. Well, for my personal work, uh my website is brenfrederick.com. But I would much rather you go check out the Bi Pan library at bipanlibrary.com, or at Bi Pan library on Instagram and Twitter. I'm most active on Instagram. Yeah, the Bi Pan Library is a resource for all, friendly to all Bi Pa, M-spec, people out there and their allies and friends and family.

ROWAN: Amazing.

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ROWAN: So that is it for another episode of the Queer Movie Podcast. Thank you so much for joining us. If you've enjoyed this episode, then make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast. So you're primed for our next episode in your podcast app of choice. And if you like what you hear, consider supporting us over on Patreon where we have some very fun perks on our thanks, including monthly queer movie watch along on our Discord. Extremely fun. You can also follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram for some behind-the-scenes content as and when Jazza and I remember to do that. And we would like to as part of this thanks once again, Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon rainbow parent. We are so happy to have your support and we wanted to thank you once again. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode. I've been Rowan Ellis, we are edited by Julia Schifini and a part of the Multitude collective. Find more of their amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much and you will hear from us very soon.

Movies That Made Me Queer with Joel from Fictional Fates

24 november 2022 | 49 min

Rowan speaks to veritable intellectual (they actually read), Joel Rochester from Fictional Fates who goes through the media which made them queer! From Barbie to Mulan and, of course, the Pirates franchise.

We're a serious podcast and have a sponsor, SquareSpace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

Find Us Online

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

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- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

ROWAN: Before we dive into today's episode, we want to say thanks once again to our two amazing rainbow parent-level patrons. Jennifer and Toby, an incredible round of applause for you. If you're interested in finding out more about how to become a rainbow parent level patron or any level patron, to be honest, then the link will be in the description. You can find all of the fun and exciting perks there.

ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ plus cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of our guest's specials. Today we're joined by a very special guest who will be answering the question what movies made you queer? I'm very excited to welcome, Joel Rochester aka Fictional Fates.

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JOEL: Hi, everyone.

ROWAN: Woooh. So Joel, for people who are listening who might not know who you are, can you tell us a little bit about what you do?

JOEL: Yeah, I can. Hello, everyone, my name is Joel, otherwise known as Fictional Fates on most other platforms. I basically create a lot of like bookish content online. So like reviewing books, discussing books, talking about books, and crying about books a lot of the time, but I also delve into like other little bits, like productivity, and video gaming, every now and again. And yeah, it's just been pretty fun. I'm in a bit of a transformational era at the minute because I've just moved and there are boxes of bookshelves behind me that I still need to build. But I'm very excited to like continue creating more and more content in the future.

ROWAN: Just a—the booky, a booky.

JOEL: A booky.

ROWAN: Little bookworm.

JOEL: Hihi.

ROWAN: Yeah, amazing. I like—I so I know, Joel, because we work together on some, like YouTube stuff at Penguin.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: The publisher, not the Biscuit Company, if you're from the UK. So I'm always a big admirer of the fact that they, you know, read books as someone who simply, you know, doesn't, apart from the ones that she asked to read for work. So, anyone who has good reads in which they managed to read more than like a book a month, I'm like, wow, an intellectual, an incredible person.

JOEL: An intellectual?

ROWAN: With a dedication. I simply buy them and then forget to read them.

JOEL: Ah, yes, that is—that is a certain mood.

ROWAN: So I kind of used queer as a bit of an umbrella term, a catch-all in that section but, how do you identify? What words would you put in that title

JOEL: Oooh. I would identify as a non-binary bisexual.

ROWAN: Amazing. So you are in fact answering the question of what movies made you a non-binary bisexual. This kind of episode, we've done a few of these in the past. And it's really a mix. It's—it's whatever the guests bring, right? So we've had some people answer it in a very serious way, talk about the importance of representation and what it really meant to them. And some people are just like, I wanted to fuck the Fox from the Disney's automated Robin Hood. And everything in between. So I'm going into this completely, with no knowledge. Joel has not informed me of any of these choices, so feel free to give them to me in any order that you like, from least to most chaotic, from you know youngest age that you encountered them to oldest. I will leave it up to you. Take it away.

JOEL: Oh, amazing. Okay, so I think like the very first thing that came to mind was the Barbie films. Because—

ROWAN: Incredible.

JOEL: I could go into like a whole like analysis on like Barbie movies and like queerness. But my youngest sister used to like, own and watch all of the Barbie films. And so sometimes they're just like, oh, I'll just watch them with you see, like, what they're about. And I didn't know there was just something about the way that Barbie was just able to, like, be fully herself, be like, anything and everything she wanted to be. And like, you know, have amazing outfits and like, transform into like different, like magical scenarios. I was like, wow, I kind of want to be something like that. And I think there was just something so magical about like, the concept of Barbie and I notice that I was like, I—I relate, and I don't know why yet, but I relate.

ROWAN: I have a confession. Joel.

JOEL: Oh.

ROWAN: I have not seen any of the Barbie movies.

JOEL: Oh, oh, Rowan.

ROWAN: What—what? So is it—it—so Barbie is the toy?

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: She's kind of famous for being a job hopper. Like she really loves to do every job under the sun. She's like, maybe I'll be a model. Maybe I'll be an astronaut. Maybe I'll be a doctor, who knows? So is that the—the vibe of the movies that like every movie she's a different version of herself?

JOEL: Basically. Like I—I'm of the opinion that Barbie has like a form of ADHD in some way because like—

ROWAN: Okay.

JOEL: You can't really hop to different hobbies without having like that.

ROWAN: It's a very ADHD thing.

JOEL: Yeah.

JOEL: By the time they like, I truly don't know what people did before. Everything was at your fingertips, you could order online and delivered the next day. Because like if I—if I ordered something, and I had to wait like five weeks for it to come, I would have moved on from that potential hobby already.

ROWAN: And maybe that would have been a good thing. Like if I hadn't just bought maybe that would have stopped me buying like, gouache at 2 am, like through a TikTok, and then I'm like, have I used them more than three times? Probably not.

JOEL: Exactly.

ROWAN: Oh, gosh, I do relate to that. Because there are definitely a lot of hobbies where I've been like, oh yeah, I'll do this. And then it drives them like, oh, maybe, maybe not. But you are right. Like each Barbie, the film has like a different scenario. So in like, there's like a series called Barbie: Fairytopia, where she's basically like a fairy. She gets to be a mermaid in the second film. It's pretty fun. And then she gets these like rainbow wings and magic of the rainbow. And that is probably—

ROWAN: That's pretty gay.

JOEL: Like the—yeah, the queerest film, I think. Because there were just all these different, like fairies that were like, okay, we'll give you a magic. And she's like, pride. So I think that was pretty awesome. But then there are ones where she like, runs a fashion show in Paris. There are ones where she's like, a princess and a pauper. Like, there was like this whole like section where they would basically just retell fairy tales and the Barbie way. And there were just definitely some of those homes where I was like, there's definitely some underlying queerness in this, and I don't know quite how, but I think my brain like when I was younger was figuring it out.

ROWAN: So I know there's definitely a Barbie Nutcracker.

JOEL: Yes.

ROWAN: And the reason that I know that, is because I was around a—a friend's house who was a little bit high. And they essentially told me to—to go away to like, I had to leave the room because I looked like the Rat King from Barbie in the Nutcracker to them. They were like I was—I was just dancing around and they were like, no, no, I can't do this. You need to go, you look like the Rat King. I have not had the heart to look up what that character looks like. Because I know that I'm going to be—I know that might be the end of our friendship.

JOEL: Oh, God. Maybe, potentially. I thought you were gonna go down like the aisle of like the Nutcracker himself. And how like a lot—It's kind of like the beauty in the beast effect where a lot of people prefer the beast to the actual like, look.

ROWAN: They prefer the objects, the nutcrackers. Thanks to the contrast thing.

JOEL: Because what he looked like after he kind of came like turned back into a regular human, was just not great. I prefer him as the Nutcracker.

ROWAN: Incredible. Wait—hang on. I get it—I feel like you can't say that. And I can't not actually Google that to give my live reaction to the both versions of the Nutcracker.

JOEL: Literally.

ROWAN: Okay, so in—when he's a nutcracker, he's got an incredible like dark black mustache, big baby blue eyes. He's got a very chiseled, um, it's not really a chin. It's his goatee.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: His goatee is very chiseled. Okay, if I now look up, Barbie in the Nutcracker. Like—

JOEL: Transform?

ROWAN: Human transformed? I don't really know how to—

JOEL: That the Mouse King just came up on my uh, when I was like looking at the app as well. And I'm like, oh, no.

ROWAN: Oh, okay. I've just seen the Nutcracker man transformed. Umm. And—and when you click on the picture, it takes you to the origin, which is a tweet that just says the king and barbie and the nutcracker was hotter in his nut-cracking form.

JOEL: Yes.

ROWAN: about it for 21 years.

JOEL: People are total.

ROWAN: I feel like—was this also a case of the like, what I believe that we're kind of now referring to within the community as the Pirates of the Caribbean effect, or the—or the Mummy effects, where it's like, oh, I really also quite fancy both Barbie in the Nutcracker. Or were you not quite at that stage when you were watching these?

JOEL: Now thinking about it, I definitely think there was kind of like both kind of scenario where I was kind of seeing both Barbie in the Nutcracker. Because I definitely feel like I—was like I like both of you. But I don't know which one I prefer, at this point. And I was like, I was just like, it was kind of that experience of just kind of me like wow, like this is someone who is really smart and intelligent and can be whoever she wants to be. And this is a—

ROWAN: This guy can crack nuts.

JOEL: This guy can crack nuts. And you know, I think there's a somewhere. So, I was just like, damn, and then he transformed back and I was like, well, the decision was made for me, Barbie.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JOEL: So.

ROWAN: I like having that moment in your youth, you were like, I guess I'm straight after all. And there was like oh, wait, I got

JOEL: Let's go back into denial for like a few more years.

ROWAN: Oh my God. Oh my God, incredible. And then I guess the—I've imagined that would be a level of campiness to the Barbie movies as well.

JOEL: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: That feels like a—an energy as well.

JOEL: Like there was definitely like campiness, like with like the outfits and kind of like the scenarios that would occur. There are definitely like a few bits where it just—it's very much like a film kind of franchise that I feel like benefited a lot from delving into the campiness of it. And just like not taking itself too seriously but then being able to kind of explore like different themes and stuff.

ROWAN: So how old were you when this was like a part of your life, or this is like a childhood thing or?

JOEL: Yeah, definitely. I think I—when I like first started watching them it was—when my sister was like 5 or 6, I was probably like 9 or 10.

ROWAN: Oh, okay, so this is like a youthful, youthful exploration—

JOEL: Yeah, It was like—

ROWAN: Of this.

JOEL: Ooh. Like, what is this? What is this film franchise?

ROWAN: What is happening here? What's going on here? Oh my gosh, amazing.

JOEL: And I just look up like compilation clips on YouTube and be like, oh, like let's keep watching and see—see what other direct films that are out there.

ROWAN: Have you delved back into like—have you rewatched them, like now that you're older?

JOEL: I haven't watched like any like in—like recently, by I know during the lockdown, I watched—I rewatch Princess and the Pauper because everyone was doing that like Tiktok, whereas like, I'm just like you, you're just like me.

ROWAN: Oh, that's what that's from. Okay, good to know.

JOEL: And so I was like, I'll re-watch that one. But I definitely want to rewatch Fairytopia at some point. Because I know the animation style is going to like, from what we've seen like in the share with like animation, seeing animation back then I'm gonna be like, wow, like, I was enjoying this back pan.

ROWAN: So I—I mean, amazing. I feel like that's in the—I wish I had some kind of umm image I need to work on the—the imagery-based formatting of this particular kind of episode. Like that's going into room 101. That's going into the vault I'm like, that's going into the rainbow tote bag of your—

JOEL: My experience—

ROWAN: True identity. Boop, there it goes.

JOEL: Just like get it from Tiger and just be like, okay, this is—

ROWAN: It's really tight. I don't know whether anyone who's listening—anyone from the UK will definitely know this. And I guess because the Tigers are obviously in Europe, they might have the same thing, but there is a rainbow tote bag in tiger that is e—entirely like bought by gay teenagers.

JOEL: Yup.

ROWAN: It's fantastic.

JOEL: It's how you identify each other. It's like—

ROWAN: There is a rainbow tote bag. If not, hmm,

ROWAN: It is. It's a new fagging. Yeah. 100 percent. Amazing. So the Barbie—the Barbie.

JOEL: The Barbie.

ROWAN: The Barbie and the Barbie movies are the pick number one.

JOEL: Yes.

ROWAN: Shall we move on to pick number two?

JOEL: Oh yeah, we can do that. Oh, this one I feel like a lot of bisexual people will relate to. So this is from a Disney film. And—

ROWAN: Okay.

JOEL: I first watched this Disney film when I was younger. It was part of like the Disney Princess kind of, I guess it kind of its part of the Disney princess.

ROWAN: I feel like I know where this is going, but continue.

JOEL: And, it's probably my favorite Disney princess film out of all of them. Because I was just like, wow, like I am in love with like, not only kind of the story, but also the queer undertones that took place within this. And how basically the male lead is essentially bisexual. Because it's—it's a headcanon that's been widely accepted at this point. So when I first watched Mulan at I—I don't even know what age I was when I first watched Mulan, but I definitely watched it multiple times during my childhood. I think I just was attracted to both Mulan and Li Xiang that I was just like, there is something here. I think this was the bit where I was like, okay, but there—this is something that I need to start thinking about why I'm attracted to both of these people. And like not only was I attracted to Mulan, I was attracted to Mulan when they were dressed as a boy as well.

ROWAN: As Ping.

JOEL: So I was like, yeah, there is definitely something here.

ROWAN: I feel like there's definitely that moment whereas you're growing up, you don't really necessarily think about the lo—like the logical ends to the scenario, where it's like, ah, and he seems to be into Mulan as a boy. And maybe we should delve into that a little bit. Like, I feel like that's a real moment of like, wait a minute. They laid it out, and I'm picking up what they were accidental, I guess putting down. Because there's definitely that one particular—well, there's that one moment in, I'll Make A Man Out Of You, when Mulan manages to like slap him, like get a hit on him. And he turns around, and he's like, I'm in love.

JOEL: Yeah, he's just like, ooh.

ROWAN: Oh no, I'm—I'm, I'm scared and horny. And I—and—and there's no—there's no heterosexual explanation—

JOEL: No.

ROWAN: For that whatsoever.

JOEL: Which like, you can't be like, oh, he must have known, it was like no. Like, that's literally the point, he didn't know at all. And so yeah, there's definitely some kind of like queer undertone to the entire film because there is just no like a straight explanation for Li Xiang, at all.

ROWAN: No, completely. So is that—was that an example, like we were saying earlier about the, I want to be this person, I want to make out with these people. I want to like—this is like suggesting something that I could, like, absorb into my own self like that feels like it makes sense for me. Like, what was that connection to queerness for you?

JOEL: I think Li Xiang was definitely one that I related to, in a way. Not only because I wanted to make out with him, but also the way that he was like questioning his attraction to like Mulan dressed as Ping. I was kind of like, oh, like, he's kind of questioning whether he's in love. And I'm like, kind of questioning my attraction to men. So I was like, okay, like this is— if someone else can, like do this, I can do that too. And I think because I was seeing it through this film, I was like, okay, I'm also attracted to Li Xiang, and I'm also attracted to Mulan. And I'm also attracted to Mulan dressed as Ping. So I was like, I need to kind of figure out, kind of what this means for me, and how I feel about that.

ROWAN: I love that. If we think about this movie, if this movie was a movie where they had deliberately wanted to tell like a story of bisexuality in the way that I think they think of most of this—they don't necessarily—I think Disney doesn't necessarily think of most of their like princess movies as stories of heterosexuality, but that is what they are.

JOEL: Yeah, true.

ROWAN: What would you have changed? Like, how would you have—how would you have like made that more central? Or do you feel like at this point, it just this, like, it's just so in the subtext to it

JOEL: I think at the mo— at like, as it is, it is pretty much in the subtext because you can't deny the fact that Li Xiang was attracted to what he was deceiving at the time as Mulan, as a man. And, like Mulan slowly grew attracted to Li Xiang. But I feel like the—it's so ingrained in the film at this point that it's like, there's no denying that that took place. If I were to, like, change anything and make it like more apparent, I don't know, maybe like Mulan could go on, like a journey of self-discovery, like herself. But I think with Li Xiang's character, I think it's just hard to like disassociate the bisexuality from it.

ROWAN: I mean, if you think about the song that Mulan sings, where she's like, when will my reflection show who I am inside? I'm like, that seems pretty nonbinary to me.

JOEL: Yaas.

ROWAN: That seems pretty like, that feels like there's a lot of the associations with the idea of like, hey, who—when will it show who I am inside, and then I go off to wardress as a man.

JOEL: Yeah.

JOEL: Yeah, does something specific, like a specific look, by its very definition, just like

ROWAN: But then that like, complication of like, what does it even mean to show non-binaryness on the outside? Because it's by definition, not.

JOEL: Yeah, definitely.

ROWAN: Something specific, like a specific look, but it's by definition.

JOEL: It's just like—Mulan, exploring kind of, like a different, like, gendered version of—or non-gendered version of herself, was definitely very interesting. And like, the way that she had to kind of become accustomed to like a different scenario and like, different roles and different, and way of life, essentially. But you could tell that she was a lot happier, being where she was like, despite like, the war going on, and like the scariness of that, she was free in a way.

ROWAN: I think that also like thinking about it, there was—they—Mulan has these scenes of like, the ultra-feminine and the ultra-masculine, like ideals.

JOEL: Yes.

ROWAN: Where she in both of those camps, like doesn't fit in. Like doing the matchmaker scene at the beginning. And all of these like perfect girls who are like, and her family who are really excited about this tradition, who are like feel very sort of satisfied with that whole process, with like that connection to your like mother and your grandmother coming in and helping. And for me, like it's like I—oh, God, like I don't fit in here. But then similarly, there are all of the scenes within the camp were not just the idea of like being strong and fighting, but like talking about women in a particular way—

JOEL: Yes.

ROWAN: Or wanting a wife, like there are all of these—these kinds of two different extremes that neither of them she really fits into. So I think that's also, the more I think about this movie, the more I'm like, God, it's great as hell, like, this is just—it's so, like if you'd have told me, I saw a TikTok the other day, that was about a fake documentary that someone had made about how the Goofy Movie was actually an attempt to make the blackest like children's cartoon movie that they could. Because of like all of the references, and it was like, it's hysterical, because it's like, you sort of accidentally made this thing that so many people have interpreted as like, very clearly a black movie.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: And then it's kind of like almost the same with Mulan, you can have a fake documentary of someone being like, okay, so we've got to make the queerest possible like the movie, where it's like this—this bitch is bisexual. This one's non-binary. They're figuring it all out. They're going for—they're staying for dinner. They're staying forever. And I'm like, yeah, I believe it.

JOEL: It'd be like the office scenario. It's like, oh, my God, it's happening. And everyone's just like freaking out and trying to like, piece everything together. And they're like, we need bisexually shot and non-binary Mulan. Let's go, and everyone's like, let's go, go, go.

ROWAN: It's just, it's just true—It's simply the truth.

JOEL: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: And I think if anyone can't see it, open your eyes people.

JOEL: Like there are definitely a lot of videos on it, like somewhere that you can and just rewatch it. Like, if you rewatch it with that mindset. I definitely feel like you'll be able to see it more apparent,

ROWAN: You'll be picking up on it in no time.

JOEL: Oh, yeah, definitely.

[theme]

ROWAN: So dear listener, Jazza is on a secret campaign, has been on a secret campaign for a while, actually. For us to cover queer erotica as a genre on the podcast. Like that is a thing that they really have been pushing. But you know, until I finally give in, you should check out our sponsor Dipsea, which is an app with hundreds of stories designed by and for women that are yes queer inclusive with lesbian, bi trans and non-binary short stories, in all of the sexy genres that I am told that you non-asexual people are into. Basically, you get immersive soundscapes, talented voice actors, and steamy scenarios at your fingertips, no pun intended. There is also new content released each week so you can listen to your favorites again, or find something new. That really is something for everyone because they have something for me. Sleep stories, wellness sessions, and a nice relaxing nature soundscape. Very much more my speed and I very much enjoyed it as someone who likes to listen to things as she nods off. So give Dipsea a try to see if it's your new go-to place for spicing up your me time, exploring your fantasy to your partner, or getting off to sleep with a comforting sound of a rainy woodland. For listeners of the show, Dipsea is offering an extended 30-day free trial when you go to dipseastories.com/queermovie. That's 30 days of full access for free when you go to D I P S EAstories.com/queermovie. We would also like to thank Squarespace for sponsoring this podcast. Look at us two sponsors in one podcast going up in the world. If you're looking to build a website for yourself or your business, then Squarespace is an all-in-one place to do just that. You can use it to build a site, set up an online shop, or connect with your audience. So we use Squarespace to make the Queer Movie Podcast website, but I also used it to make my own website. And I have never been relaxed a day in my life. So I have a ton of projects in social media platforms spread all over the internet that I wanted to include and talk about it like on this page. Squarespace lets you not only link to your social media but also connect it so you can display posts from your social profiles on your site. There are you know, analytics and insights that can help you grow your brand. If you need to figure out where are you getting your site visits from, or where are the sales coming from. Or keywords that is used to find you. They also have really exciting features like a donation function. So you can encourage donations on your site for a cause that you care about. I am very much not a techy person. So I found the very easy to use, like designing function and absolute lifesaver, including making sure the website doesn't look absolute trash on mobile. Because turns out that sometimes when you build a website on your computer, and then you go on to mobile, it's real bad. And this was absolutely not the case with Squarespace. So check out squarespace.com/queermovie for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code queer movie to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. And before we dive right into it, I just want to let you know this Saturday is Small Business Saturday. And since it is Small Business Saturday, we would ask you to maybe consider supporting your friendly local podcast collective, that is Multitude the amazing collective that we are a part of. It is a small business that helps creators make a living in the modern media landscape which is no mean feat. And for $5 a month, you get the weekly friendly debate podcast Head Heart Gut, which I have been on and so as Jazza multiple times, it is so much fun and very unhinged. So perfect for if you are enjoying this—this podcast that we do. You also get access to our pen pal exchange, monthly live events with the host of the different Multitude podcasts, and much more. Your dollar goes further when you support indie creators like Multitude, our Queer Movie podcast, and all the rest of the amazing podcast hosts that make up this brilliant little collective. So whether you spread the word or spread the love with your dollars, shop more and support Multitude this Small Business Saturday. Okay, back to Joel.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so Mulan also going in the rainbow tote bag from Tiger.

JOEL: Let's go.

ROWAN: How about number three?

JOEL: Okay, this one actually alludes to um, a reference he made with Pirates of the Caribbean. But when I first watched like the first season of Heartstopper, and we saw Nick kind of watching Elizabeth Swann and Will Turner in Pirates of the Caribbean, it kind of unlocked a memory within me where I was like, oh my god, I was attracted to both Orlando Bloom and Keira Knightley, whilst they were doing all the Pirates of the Caribbean films. And I didn't realize like that until I watched that first season. And I was like, damn, no wonder I loved seeing them on the screen so much.

ROWAN: That's so interesting. I mean, like I so—I fully had a picture of Will Turner. And of actually.

JOEL: Oh, yaas.

ROWAN: on my wall. Like even though I am a lesbian, and fundamentally didn't actually find either of them attractive. I think it was just like the idea of the things you were meant to find attractive at the time. I think mainly, it was just like, these are cool characters. Like these are fun, cool characters. But yeah, it was Elizabeth Swann. And like, as I've gotten older, I think I've like appreciated, not just you know, Elizabeth Swann for her incredible good looks.

JOEL: True.

ROWAN: But also the fact that in those movies, she is like the central character who just doesn't get enough—Doesn't get enough credit.

JOEL: Yeah, True. Like the whole like, scenario with Elizabeth Turner, just like, she is that— she just been thrust from her world into the pirate world. And it's like, well, you know, she kind of grows up a lot throughout the like—throughout. And it's just like you can't take that away from her like she is a formidable person like a pirate queen.

ROWAN: She truly is the Pirate King.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: I just a— I like I always just think about that scene in the first movie where she's been like, no warning, ripped from her bed like, taken hostage, got onto this ship. And then she takes the pirate medallion.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: And she essentially likes hangs—it's the same way she hangs over the side of the ship. And she's like, essentially playing like a game of bluff with this, like, terrifying pirate captain on the ship in which he has no power. And she bluffs with him, where she's like if I'll give you this if you let me go.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: He's like, oh, I don't even need that. Like, you think that's important to me. And she goes as if she's gonna let it drop into the ocean. And all the pirates are like, no, and she just smiles like, oh, I fucking have you, like this is—and I think that those moments of, like the courage of like, where she goes, she like has no weapon, but she's like, trying to rip us off the wall. She's like, using the bedpan full of coals. Like, she's it—she has this ingenuity to her.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: Like all this stuff. And I think that was also something that was really exciting to see rather than just being either the like, she's so beautiful and sweet. And like dimia or the like, opposite where it's like, she's so sassy. And she—she's like, not taking shit from the boy. And like all of that kind of stuff. And I'm like, oh, it's like a nice in-between. It didn't feel like too forced.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: So yeah, no, but I can absolutely see why both of them were bi-panicked.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: For you.

JOEL: Like, thi—like hearing about what you're saying—

ROWAN: Respectively.

JOEL: True. I'm like hearing what you're saying about like Elizabeth Swann, it kind of reminds the same what we were speaking about Mulan, where it was like, these two like kind of hyper-masculine, like hyper-feminine kind of scenarios. And they both just fit somewhere in between which kind of I feel like fits into like the gender fluidity gender, kind of non-binaryness of it, or like, you can fit somewhere on the spectrum or outside of the spectrum, if like, you're just feeling like it doesn't fit you. And I think they're both examples of like, someone finding their way within the spectrum and someone being like, okay, I'm just gonna go away from this.

ROWAN: I also really liked—like, kind of conversely, with Will Turner's character. He has these elements of masculinity, which are like him being a sword fighter and like being a blacksmith and all this kind of stuff. But he isn't the typical idea of like the hulking muscular blacksmith.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: Like Witcher-style vibes of like Henry Cavill bodybuilder, and he has this real like sense of softness and romance to him, in a lot—like he I feel like if you were to add up the words that he says, like in this movie, around 30 to 50% of them will just be him going, Elizabeth.

JOEL: Elizabeth.

ROWAN: Elizabeth.

JOEL: Elizabeth.

ROWAN: Because he's clumsy like he—I think he like maybe re—gets to rescue someone once, and then every other time it's her rescuing him. Or just like going off to him or trying to figure stuff out. And he's just that like, Elizabeth. And I appreciate that dynamic.

JOEL: Or he just like Davy Jones's Locker? Davy Jones's locker?

ROWAN: Father?

JOEL: Father.

ROWAN: Dad.

JOEL: I will stay with you.

ROWAN: Dad, why are you a starfish? Spoilers for the—spoilers on Pirates of the Caribbean. His father is in fact, Patrick from SpongeBob.

JOEL: I was literally about to make that joke.

ROWAN: We're the same. We're Simply on the same wavelength.

JOEL: Honestly.

ROWAN: I love that. And I love the fact that there are these moments of queer childhoods or queer growing up, where you don't necessarily clock it what it actually is. Because you're— I mean, I don't know whether this is kind of how it works for you. But I feel like we're so not shown the mold or the model for like, what that kind of would look like for us, like we're shown the girls like giddy on their bed, like kicking their heels about a boy ringing them on the phone. Like twirling the cord in their fingers or guys like joking around with each other about a girl. Like all these kinds of scenarios that we see in fiction, and when you don't quite fit into that, sometimes it is difficult to recognize, like what you are feeling.

JOEL: Yeah, it's kind of alienating in a way because it's just like, oh, I'm not feeling like this group of people should feel. I'm not feeling like how that group of people should feel. So where do I fit in? Like, where do I lie on the boundaries? And like it is scary sometimes like having to kind of figure that out for yourself, but it's also really liberating once you've kind of found that and like figured it out, because then you're just like, oh, I can see where I lie now and like it's okay to be not like other people. Because I'm myself, and like once you've like accepted that and like celebrated that, then you'll feel better about it.

ROWAN: For you like with your—you—you've got, within the identity that we were talking about earlier, right? We've got bisexual, we've got non-binary. For you did they come, did that realization comes like a whole package? Or was it like I figured out one thing and then I kind of figured out another, or I thought it was one thing like ho—how did that work for you?

JOEL: It was definitely like my sexuality first. Like I knew I was—like I slowly realized I was attracted to men. And then I was kind of like doubting my attraction to like women and other genders. And I was just like, I, like, am I just gay? And then I kind of realized that like, no, I am like bisexual. And I don't need to kind of, like force myself into like, one particular pocket. I can just be bisexual. And so that was like when I came out as bisexual, I was like, yay, like, that's me. And then there was just like gender in the back corner being like, you're not done, not yet.And so, and like, there was just like this lingering, kind of like the feeling of like, people like referring to me as a man. And I was like, oh, I don't really like that word for me. And it wasn't until like, I think 2020-2021, where I was just kind of like, okay, I need to stop figuring this out properly. Because otherwise, if people keep referring to me as something that I'm not comfortable with, I'm just gonna be unhappy. And so I think—I don't know what it was specifically, but I think I read a book called All Boys Aren't Blue by George M. Johnson, and who's also non-binary. And I think it was reading that, and then just like doing like, like watching a lot of like videos about people and their experience that I was like, oh, I think I fit into this kind of, like mold, like, not mold specifically. But like, I fit into this kind of like, a term that and I feel comfortable with that term. And I think if the mold doesn't fit, make your own mold. So.

ROWAN: I mean, that's really interesting, right? The— the things that you were referencing just then are all like real life, people's experiences, right? So it's like it is a book, but it's like that, that because of that kind of a memoir.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: Right from George. And then like, the talking about people's videos, do you feel like you've ever seen a character or a movie, or something, which isn't literally someone talking about their own life?

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: Or do you think we're not quite there yet, with that kind of, like representation?

JOEL: I think we're getting there, like, I think in recent years with like, specifically, like TV shows, we've definitely like increased, like the queer experience. And like, the amount of like Glee, like, despite, like the writing in some of the seasons, that was explicitly queer. And like, there were a lot of queer characters that I worked felt like I related to like, Santana was probably my favorite character. Yeah, I was just like, this is great. But I feel like, in terms of trying to get like, specifically bisexual representation, it was always quite tough because there would be a character who was attracted to women, and then they'd like to start having an attraction towards men. And then they'd be like, oh, are you gay now? or, like, are you just— have you like flipped the switch? And it's just like, no, you can like, like, both and more. And it was hard to kind of find the like, scenarios where like, they explicitly refer to themselves as bisexual. And in terms of like, non-binary representation. I—I don't think I was like, I don't think I've really like watched anything with like an explicitly like non-binary character in. Until I tried to think it was their husband. Because there might be something, but I might be forgetting it. But there's definitely been like, I think we are improving it, especially with like, more like gender nonconforming, like actors getting into, like film and TV now. I think there's definitely going to be an explosion. We're just seeing like the gunpowder being laid.

ROWAN: Yeah, there's definitely I think, a strong contingent of non-binary characters, but they are like aliens or robots or, like things that don't have a gender. Not because they've necessarily decided to be non-binary, but just because of the nature of their like species, so there, you know, who they are is non-binary. So I think it's like, trying to—trying to get some human.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: Some human rep would be fun. I think.

JOEL: I think like the first human rep, I saw of like a non-binary character, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, was Stevonnie from Steven Universe, who was like a fusion of Steven and Connie, like two best friends, later, like something more, but that was probably like when they fused and like Stevonnie like they/them. I was like, wow, like, wow, I love that.

ROWAN: I'm gonna tell you a character that you absolutely have just forgotten, which is Jim in our

JOEL: Oh my gosh, yes. Je—oh my God.

ROWAN: How could you? A pirate as well?

JOEL: I'm so sorry. I know we were literally just on pirates. Like I'm so sorry, Jim. I failed you, but yeah, Jim as well. Like when they run the show, and I was watching it, I was like, Jim, I was like, I—I root for you, Jim I root for you. And like yeah, I think especially with like shows like Our Flag Means Death, Heartstopper, Young Royals. Although I haven't watched that yet, but everyone's trying to get me to watch it. And I'm like, I will. I definitely think there's more queer media coming. And I definitely think that will translate more into like the film space eventually. Like we are seeing more queer films coming out. And it's,—it's great because like, although I didn't have this during my childhood, there are children right now who are going to have this during their childhood. And it's amazing because there's definitely then a sign of progress being made.

ROWAN: So thank you for that little detour into your psyche. I think that you have, you have one more thing that made me non-binary bisexual to—to give to us to give to the listeners and to me.

JOEL: This one that was a film where I was like, I haven't really experienced kind of like a lot of the media that I consumed. And a lot of the characters that I've mentioned so far were white. And so trying to find like a black queer character. I was like, oh, like that—that person, like much. But then I—I think it was when Moonlight came out and—I think it was like 20—I think I want to say 2016 or 2018, that moonlight came out. But when that film came out, it was an experience that I don't think is going to be the same when I come to rewatch it. Because I haven't watched it since like, the very first time I watched it. But like watching that film was such like a defining experience for me where I was like, black queer media. And I didn't know—there was just something about that film that like affected me in such a way that I was just like, a lot of my experiences within like queer spaces have often been, like, very accepting. But then also sometimes it's kind of a lack of intersectionality. So to see it in this film was very like, affirming to me.

ROWAN: And I think as well to see it in a film that was so celebrated, and like appreciated as well, because there's always like when we talk about queer stuff, and like more queer movies, there's always been this like, slightly badly made, like budget, like indie stuff that you have, like a real affection for because it was like all that was available, especially when I was kind of growing up. And you would like, go to like peccadillo pictures and buy their DVDs that you'd like, couldn't get in mainstream shops, or like HMV, or whatever. And, like, watch these movies where you're like, this is objectively just bad. And so I think it's like, both having that, oh, I'm being seen, but also this element of like, but it's also like a stunning movie.

JOEL: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: Absolutely like one of the best movies of all time, like truly incredible on like, every level. And it's got representation, and it's been appreciated, and like held up in canon. And it was like, had a wide enough release that you could like, actually see it and not have to do it, like in the shadows, in a secret, like—

JOEL: Literally like—

ROWAN: Pirated version like. Yeah, exactly. Amazing. I mean, like, so I—I have watched that movie a number of times. And I—I feel like you said—you were saying you wouldn't necessarily have the same experience, um, I—I would say fear not, there is not a bad thing about that movie, to be honest. Um, you.

JOEL: True.

ROWAN: It is the chef's frickin kiss. I mean, do you feel like you have had to, like actively search for that kind of media? Is that something that is just not necessarily as—I guess, as mainstream, or it's easy to find as either like white queer media or just, you know, black non-queer media I guess?

JOEL: Yeah, I think initially, it was very tough, because it was kind of like, there wasn't a lot of it. And if there was, like a black queer character, there will always just reduce to like the love interest in a film. So it was kind of like, oh, here we have a white protagonist. And then we have the black love interest. And it was weird in a way because they were never treated as a main characters, they were basically treated as like an accessory to the main character. And I was like, I like whilst I could enjoy the film, there was just something underlying that I was like, I don't know how I feel about that. But to then kind of view more media with like Moonlight and like, in a way Thor Ragnarok with a Valkyrie, like just to see like more like queer people of color, kind of taking center stage, taking kind of like protagonist or like powerful roles within like the stories. it very much became easier for me to find this kind of like media and just seeing like, it spread across like not only film, but like TV, and books. It was—it's been amazing to kind of finally got, like that representation that I wish I had when I was younger. But now it's kind of like healing that inner child in a way where I can just consume all the media now. And it's been great. I definitely have a more optimistic outlook when it comes to the future of film and TV now because like, I don't have to search as thoroughly as I had to do before.

ROWAN: I mean, do you feel like obviously you—we've—were kind of talking just because you know, it's the Queer Movie Podcast, but mainly movies and sometimes TV, but do you think that books are further ahead in this regard? Or do you think it's still kind of the same in all of these creative industries?

JOEL: I feel like it's a similar like kind of wave. I think books are slightly ahead. But I think because sometimes books don't have a wider reach as like film and TV does. I feel like the effect books might have on isn't as apparent. But I think there's definitely like a wider space with books in terms of like queerness. And because there's like so many different kinds of like, ways to, like, get your story out there. I think it definitely helps to like have those books, and like a lot of books do get adapted into TV and film. So it's like books sometimes act as a starting point to like find the audience that would be interested in that kind of like adaptation that then spreads to like a wider audience. I mean, we've seen it with Heartstopper. We've seen it with—I think there was that there was a new adaptation recently that was on Netflix. I think it was like adapting like Half Bad by Sally Green.

ROWAN: It's the bastard son in the devil himself.

JOEL: Yes. Didn't necessarily like how that series ended. But there is bad example to have. But yeah, there's definitely like, more. And I think books definitely help down the line with like, film and TV.

ROWAN: What are you looking for next? Like, what is—what are you hoping that like, if I was to—if there was someone who was growing up now, and you know, I had them on—I had them on the podcast in 10 years. Will still be older, decrepit will still be going um, like, what would you hope that they will be able to say like, oh, when I was like, growing up in like, 2022, this is what I like really felt connected to.

JOEL: Yeah, I—I guess I would hope that there's like more black queer characters like a center stage of like films and TV. And I definitely hope that more of those kinds of books are adapted, and like more of those stories are like told. I definitely hope there are more non-binary like characters in like films, and like romance, and like, fantasy. I think like, the more genres like people are in, I think it would just be amazing because trying to like reduce a certain identity to a certain genre isn't really like as progressive, I think. So I feel like having those characters be who they are, but not make it like the center focus, just a like a casual part of it. Because I think a lot of people are like, Oh, don't shove it in my face. But it's literally just a queer character existing in a world. And it's just like, has it shoving it in your face, though, or you just like, personally uncomfortable with it. So I think just having like queer characters exist in like, every form of media, and just someone being like, I did not have to, like, go far to find, like something that represents me. I think that would be my personal kind of like, hope.

ROWAN: And I guess how did—so— I guess that that idea of someone just being in the media, kind of ties into sometimes when that isn't the case, like sometimes when someone is calling attention to their identity, it's kind of acting as a lesson for the straight and the cis people in the audience like, by the way, this is what non-binary is.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: And I suppose the further we get into representation, where it's just, there's more of it, the less the characters will need to like explain their existence to everyone so that no one's being like, but that—they're saying they/them. I'm so confused.

JOEL: Yeah. I definitely think like more exposure. It basically would allow people to not have to be like, oh, here's an introduction to this character and everything you need to know about, like, their identity. It's just kind of like, okay, they are a bisexual non-binary person. Okay, under the story.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JOEL: And so it's just like, I think like you said, If there's more than there becomes less of a need to kind of be a lesson.

ROWAN: Okay, so you've given me four. Any other things that you want to mention?

JOEL: Oh, okay. So you mentioned Legolas earlier with like Orlando Bloom

ROWAN: I did.

JOEL: There's a similar pairing, like not pairing, but like a similar dynamic that I kind of had with Legolas and because both—both of them were also something to me. Like I think it's always like I kind of find one like male character to kind of cling on too. A one female character to cling on to pair, like fantasy or kind of explorative film and I'm just like. uh you too are like the people that I will cling on to and be attracted to, thank you. But yeah, I think—but Lord of The Rings definitely had a lot of hot characters, and—

ROWAN: It did. Aragon opening his doors, uh incredible.

JOEL: So I definitely feel like both the rings, gave me a lot—uh informed a lot of like my attraction to people which thank you. I will be immensely thankful.

ROWAN: I think as well that was—I mean the fact that that was just a film with just so, so many laws, so many dudes.

JOEL: Yeah.

ROWAN: So many white dudes.

JOEL: True.

ROWAN: But like it truly gave you the run of them. It truly was like would you—here's—here's your menu. Would you like rugged Outlander style, like a king in disguise? Would you like a sweet farmer boy who just wants to get back to his lady, love Rosie? Would you like Why Died Little Frodo, who's just gonna—he's gonna just be a brave little boy? Like, would you like the ethereal, like an elf who just casually walks across the snow while everyone charges? Like it really was giving you the full range of whiteboy for you to decide.

JOEL: True.

ROWAN: Are you attracted to any of them? Maybe you should think about that, at that point.

JOEL: It's like, what is your type figure out by watching Lord of the Rings?

ROWAN: Which one of the fellowships is your type?

JOEL: There's probably a quiz somewhere.

ROWAN: Truly. And then I guess Galadriel is just uh, an extremely powerful and beautiful immortal psyche.

JOEL: Yeah. I mean, basically like, kind of like Barbie's like fantasy cousin, in a way, Where she's just like, I am beautiful. I'm powerful. I can be whatever I want to be. And Barbies, like, yes, I am Galadriel, but in a different way.

ROWAN: I want a hot take.

JOEL: Oh.

ROWAN: Barbie, Lord of the Rings. When— when—is it coming?

JOEL: Oh.

ROWAN: When is it going to happen?

JOEL: I would probably. I would want to see Ken as um. Ken would probably have to be like Frodo or some wires. But then if Barbie then plays Frodo, I'm like Barbie in a—in a different kind of role.

ROWAN: Hmm. like what would Barbie, is Barbie, Gandalf. Like, where's this situation? Incredible. And then like, that's great, because then she can like rise again, is like Barbie the and like, have a whole new outfit.

JOEL: Like the white—the white Christmas dress.

ROWAN: Oh, it's all coming together.

JOEL: It's like—

ROWAN: Amazon-like call us. You've got the rights, still Lord of the Rings now, right? Like you have the right, call us.

JOEL: We've got some Legolas, Lord of the Rings turns into Barbie, Lord of the Rings.

ROWAN: Oh, that's very—just all the crossovers, it just makes sense.

JOEL: Exactly.

ROWAN: Truly. Amazing. What a journey you have bought us on today, Joel. We've gone all the way from like Barbie through to Lord of the Rings, through to Barbie Lord of the Rings. Absolutely chef's kiss. I always like with these episodes to see the crossover that people have. I think that there's definitely a lot of media that has strong queer energy, not necessarily from the media itself, but just from everyone just deciding, just claiming it as our own when we didn't have any alternatives. And I imagine that even as we continue to have, like actual queer media, we'll still be stealing it from the straights. We'll still be being like nothing is safe from us.

JOEL: Oh, definitely. We're like we're claiming this Rosoff and you can't say anything about it. Sorry.

ROWAN: Truly. So I just want to say thank you so much for joining us. If people wanted to find you if they've listened to your unhinge rantings about these stunning pieces of media. Where—where can they find you?

JOEL: Oh, well, if you want to hear more of my unhinged and chaotic thoughts, I'm on YouTube at Fictional Fates. Instagram, the same handle. Twitter, at Joel Rochesterr, with two R's on the end. And yeah, that's basically everything.

ROWAN: Amazing. And I hope all of you who are listening are having a very queer day.

JOEL: Yes.

[theme]

ROWAN:: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, then, like I said at the beginning, please consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join our Queer Movie Club, where we do watch along on our private Discord each month. But that is the bare minimum of things you can get. At other levels, you can also get our movie recommendation lists and a monthly newsletter with a curation of all of the gay stuff that we find on the internet. And we would like to as part of this thanks once again, Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon rainbow parent. We are so happy to have your support and we wanted to thank you once again. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode. I've been around LS, we're edited by Julia Schifini, and a part of the Multitude collective. Find more of their amazing stuff at multitude.productions. Thank you so much and you will hear from us very soon.

[theme]

My Policeman (Queer Adaptation)

10 november 2022 | 53 min

In which Jazza and Rowan respectfully discuss Harry Styles, his bum, and his acting.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

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Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

JAZZA: Hello everyone. Before we kick off, I just want to say a really big thank you to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us on our highest patron tier, Rainbow Parent. We'd like you very much on with the show that.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best—

ROWAN: And worst —

JAZZA: In LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I am Jazza John.

ROWAN: In each episode, we discuss a queer movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode genre is—

JAZZA&ROWAN: Queer Adaptation.

JAZZA: Hmm. Glorious. Today we're going to be talking about the latest manifestation of Harry Styles's locked-down hobby, acting with the film adaptation of the book by Bethan Roberts, My Policeman.

ROWAN: But before we see if we can make this 1950s trouble work, Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA: Well, we just had Halloween.

ROWAN: We indeed.

JAZZA: And Halloween is of course gay Christmas, and I hate dressing up, but because I have some friends who are professional drag queens. They make—so I came up with a hugely original never before done idea of being a lesbian Velma. Because les—um— lesbian is now canonically Velma.

ROWAN: Hmm. Stunning.

JAZZA: But not only was I lesbian Velma. So I had the orange turtleneck and everything. But I also decided to make it slutty because that makes it, that's a gay Halloween costume.

ROWAN: Happy Halloween.

JAZZA: Isn't it? As I was looking around H&M, as one does when you are last-minute shopping for a Halloween costume. There were a surprising number of turtleneck options, some woolen, some made of some stretchy fabric that definitely isn't biodegradable. Among these was a beautiful extra small, stretchy crop top turtleneck in the appropriate color.

ROWAN: Thank goodness it was stretchy.

JAZZA: And—Thank goodness it was stretchy. Luckily enough my AAA cup for boobs beautifully fills out

ROWAN: That broad pectorals could not be contained with a nonstretchy, extra smooth top

JAZZA: 100% And I sat there looking great, freezing my ass off in the smoking area of this party that I went to. Draped in the lesbian flag that I had purchased as part of my outfit.

ROWAN: Rude of Velma to not wear a coat canonically.

JAZZA:I can confirm that polyester pride flags are not the best thing at maintaining heat and maintaining warmth in British autumn. But they—I've learned my lesson.

ROWAN: Good to know.

JAZZA: And I will probably make the same area again. How about you? What was your gay thing?

ROWAN: You know, why not? I'll do— Halloween is inherently gay Christmas. So I will do my Halloween costume as well. So I dressed up as a pirate in Disneyland Paris, and it was a blue pirate and so I think pirates are gay because obviously, you know Our Flag Means Death Black Sails is simply true. But also—

JAZZA: Elizabeth Swan of Swan as—

ROWAN: As the Swan, the bisexual awakening for many and so that alone is is gay. But also because I was in Disney I decided, and I was blue. I decided that I was a member of the pirate gang from Descendants, which is run by Ursula's daughter. And as we all know, Ursula is a drag queen. So it came full circle. Everything was very gay and it was exactly the perfect temperature of costume to wear because I overheat very easily. And it turns out when you're doing like a historic party thing that isn't just Lottie, you have like the pirate shirt but also the dress, but also the corset. Yeah, I simply chose a character who wore layers.

JAZZA: Much smarter, I mean in many ways.

ROWAN: Classic practical lesbian over here.

JAZZA: Yeah yo—you're just layers upon gay, upon gay, upon gay of like adult Disney gay in a practical outfit that also has clear undertones. Really high-quality Ro, good job.

ROWAN: Thank you.

[theme]

JAZZA: In this episode, we are going to first talk about the main man, Harry Styles, and how his locked-down project of becoming a serious film actor, uh is—is developing. How's that going, Harry? And then I'm also going to be giving a little bit of a snapshot into what 1950s gay life was like. as this is indeed a period piece.

ROWAN: We will then be reviewing the plot and splitting it as always into three acts. As such we will be spoiling all of these movies. So if you would not like to be spoiled before you watch it. It is currently available on Amazon Prime. So pause this uh, have a little watch and then you can come back when you're ready.

JAZZA: Very good. Welcome back for everybody who did trot off. Without further ado, let's centrally poke each other in the neck and review, My Policeman.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so when we plan these episodes, we talk about like what potential contexts or ideas that surround the movie that we want to talk about, as well as the plot itself. And uh— it's difficult not to talk about Harry Styles here because I think that considering this was one of his first like major projects and acting. He's only really done four so far right? So he did like a bit part in Dunkirk, a little cameo in The Eternals, and then Don't Worry Darling which he wasn't originally meant to star in, and now this is his first like, it's me I'm Harry Styles doing acting raw.

JAZZA: And is the lead role.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Well, one of the lead roles.

ROWAN: Yeah one of the leads. And so I think that a lot of people were very interested in this maybe just for that reason purely alone, but I also think people are interested in it because Harry Styles, to a lot of people who like to power socially consume celebrities on the internet, is Schrodinger as queer. In that uh— he has a fandom that from the very beginning of him being in this boyband One Direction, don't know if you've heard of it, pretty underground. There was like speculation that he was in a relationship with one of his bandmates. There was speculation he was dating various other like male celebrities or public figures. And that has kind of continued onwards. And it has been fueled in those areas of the internet, I would say by the gender expression of some of Harry Styles's like outfits on tour or in like magazine shoots, things like that. So he's worn dresses and skirts, he's worn, like sequins and bows and like a lot of stuff that we don't necessarily consider traditionally masculine. And it's worth pointing out here that someone's gender expression does no—no links necessarily to their gender identity and or sexuality. But for a lot of people, this was like evidence of him engaging in queerness in some way.

JAZZA: Groundbreaking insights Rowan as always. Ama— this has become so prominent. I went to the V&A fashioning masculinity exhibition and the dress that he wore in the Vogue photoshoot, the big fur-like frilly, puffy dress. Puffy is in like volumeness, not the other use of the word puffy. It is—it's that, it's like the final exhibit alongside Billy Porter's tuxedo dress and Bimini Bon Boulash's final look on the runway for the drag race into the UK.

ROWAN: Stunning. Amazing. Go and see it guys, It's worth it. And so there are definitely a lot of conversations around Harry Styles. But it's also part of a wider conversation, I think around these discussions of now that we're in a point at which some people do feel able to come out. Some people in the public eye do feel able to talk about their sexuality, their gender, and their gender identity, whereas before, it was totally impossible for anyone to do it. Now, because some people feel safe, there is this expectation from some people that everyone should do it, they have an obligation to do it or that this is something that they should be kind of pressured into doing. Because I think still, for a lot of people, the idea of like being out is linked to being honest and morally virtuous. And like all of these things, and then if you're not out, that it's somehow like a flaw in your character, or there is something like inherently deceptive about what you're doing. And that goes, I think, for both sexuality and gender in, in sort of slightly different ways. And we've seen most recently this come to like a really horrible head with Kit Connor of feeling like he has outed himself as bisexual, because he was getting so much harassment, for like various, various sides of this for being—for queer baiting, even though that's not the thing a real person can do, or for being deceptive or for like not coming out or you know, all of these things. And so this conversation around Harry Styles is like, within this backdrop of that, and he, as far as I know, has never said he's part of the LGBTQ+ community. He's—he's made these comments like, you've only publicly—sometimes people say, you've only publicly been with women, and I don't think I publicly been with anyone, which is not a yes, not a no kind of answer.

JAZZA: It's also not a true like, he clearly has publicly been with women. Yeah.

ROWAN: It's also you know, we have to acknowledge the fact that the way he's dressing in photoshoots, and on tour is not like some dude deciding to wear a dress. It's someone who has marketers, and stylists, and PR people and like career coaches, and a ton of people deciding what he's going to be wearing, rather than necessarily being an authentic representation of his own gender expression. And so with all of this light conversation in mind, he, as one of his first acting projects, decides to play the lead in a movie, in which he will be playing a gay man. Or at least a queer man, I think it's ambiguous in the text as to whether or not he has like, romantic and sexual feelings for—that his wife or whether it is purely a sort of like a loving, platonic meeting of minds type relationship. So, yes, that's kind of like the interesting Harry Styles backdrop to this. And I think it's particularly interesting that he's decided on this within all of this discussion to be a role that he's decided to play.

JAZZA: And was going to be the first leading role that he played, because Don't worry Darling. he was parachuted in after Shia Labeouf didn't happen.

ROWAN: Yeah. And I think that for a lot of people, there's this—there's this idea of like, like I say, as queer, where Harry Styles is either a closeted or no—not interested in putting labels on a queer person who is taking this role, because it will allow him to express some element of queerness within his art openly as a character, rather than necessarily needing to like put it in his music or open up about it publicly as himself. Or he is a straight dude who has potentially exploited the queer audience he has, by never explicitly saying he's straight and then you know, dressing in a certain way, acting in certain roles that will give them fuel for these like conspiracy theories about him.

JAZZA: And keep people talking about him.

ROWAN: And keep people talking about him, right? And I—my general take on this is like, sure, either one of those might be true, but in trying to interrogate psychoanalyze, for someone to make a decision either way or, you know, be really angry at the idea it might be the latter and that he's manipulating people and exploiting people and stuff, we run the risk of in pressuring this person, ending up having to pressure other people within that space, including people like Kit Connor, who is Bi but not either, like, ready or interested or wanting to come out and use that word or discuss it publicly. And I—my personal feeling about it, is that it is never like, the justice you think you're doing in like outing, a straight person who's, like, potentially exploiting the community with their art, is never going to be worth the payoff, of like damaging actual queer people who are not openly queer, who need that support.

JAZZA: Yeah, 100%. Like Kit, Connor is not the only person to have gone through this.

ROWAN: Not at all, just the most recent.

JAZZA: Like, we've talked about the author of Simon, and uh.

ROWAN: Hmm. Love Simon, Becky Albertalli.

JAZZA: Yeah, who went through a similar thing, going through lots of criticism?

ROWAN: Yup.

JAZZA: Writing back queer characters, and then felt forced to come out as well. And so yeah, it's like— it's a weird catch twenty-two to be in. Like there is a huge spectrum of ambiguity in terms of what is the Harry Styles phenomenon. And it's okay, that we don't know.

ROWAN: Yeah. And so I think it's also important to conclude that any criticism we do with Harry Styles's acting, is not driven by any of this background discourse, and is, in fact, an extremely objective observation by two people watching a movie with a dude in it, who arguably is not a great actor.

JAZZA: He's not a great actor, I don't feel like I have to put the word arguably in front of it. There's been enou— there have been enough other people who've said that this isn't a fantastic performance. And oh, boy, is uh, is he out of his depth.

ROWAN: And also, I think it's important at this point, to point out that like this movie has been and always was going to be taken over by the discussion around the fact that it's like Harry Styles's like lead role breakers. I would also argue that in Don't Worry Darling, he's not really a character.

JAZZA: Well, Harry in this one, Harry Styles's name, appears in the opening credits before the name of the movie.

ROWAN: Oooh, interesting. But it's also worth noting, and is in this movie. For example, as well, who— they are a queer actor themselves. I mean, Rupert Everett, obviously, as well, who famously has talked about a lack of roles coming to him after he came out as gay. That's something he's talked about a lot. And he is fantastic in this movie. And so there's just that—there's like other—there are actual queer people in this movie who are playing these roles. And I would argue, you know, maybe let down by the direction and the writing and like, the things around them, but like as performances are putting in lovely performances, and sometimes like very excellent ones.

JAZZA: I did a quick Google when I can't confirm David Dawson, who plays the younger Rupert Everett, he plays Patrick who's also a gay man. All of the queers were together.

ROWAN: They're here. So that's kind of the I guess, context around it like meta context of what's going on. But—

JAZZA: Schrodinger's queer.

ROWAN: Schrodinger's queer, but Jazza, also, I know that you want to talk about the like, more historical context of when this is set because it does give a backdrop to the very like, tense dramatic, secretive story—love story that happens within the movie.

JAZZA: Yeah. And I actually think this is one of the triumphs of this. Triumph maybe big word. One of the better bits of this movie is the depiction of what it's like to be in the underground gay male scene in Brighton in the 1950s. So the 1950s were a particularly wrought time to be— especially a gay man, because of the kind of like a spinoff of the lavender poll, which was like the red pill in the United States. Some individuals who defected to the Soviet Union during the Cold War, ended up being outed as members of the LGBT community in the UK. There were a couple of notable ones of this that were talked about widely in the press, Guy Burgess and Don McLean, who were Bi and a gay man. And off of the back of that, and that fear of queer people being complicit in the Soviet side of the Cold War, there were a huge increase in the crackdown of male vices and perversions as they were talked about at the time. It got to the point where about 1000 men were arrested in the UK every year for committing burglary offenses which the same offenses that Oscar Wilde was arrested for in the 1800s. In the 1950s, this all came to kind of a huge head with the arresting and prosecution of Peter Wildeblood, who was a Daily Mail journalist, and Lord Montagu, who was a Lord. So they were convicted under those same buggery laws. And it was quite the scandal at the time, where it was front page news, this troll really hooked the nation and catapulted gay rights and the laws around homosexual relationships to the forefront of like the public consciousness. To the point where the government of 1954 ended up commissioning, a thing called the Wolfenden report, which was run by Sir John Wolfenden, where they essentially interviewed a load of like psychologists, a load of people in the public sphere, lawmakers, public prosecutors, etcetera. People who were intersecting with the experience of prosecuting gay men and under these laws, one of the things that I do quite enjoy about this particular report, is that they had to use pseudonyms for homosexuals and prostitutes, which were meant to be the focal point of the report of the time. So they called homosexuals, Huntleys, and prostitutes Palmer's, because they were women on the committee, and they didn't want to shock women by using those words again and again, and Huntley & Palmers are biscuit manufacturers. So they were going around using these biscuit euphemisms as a way of being able to not damage the ears of the poor women folk. The Wolfenden report ended up publishing in 1957. And it had its recommendations to decriminalize homosexuality, it then took 10 years for legislation to pass. So 1967 was when buggery was decriminalized. And then obviously, that was the end of the gay rights movement, and we got all of our rights and we never had to fight for anything again.

ROWAN: And it was so fantastic.

JAZZA: Uh. Not. So, in 67, the age of consent for gay male relationships was 21, which was when you were considered an adult by the state at the time, and that wasn't equalized until the year 2000. And obviously, there are regional differences as well. Scotland decriminalized it a lot later than England and Wales, which were the 1980s, and Northern Ireland, as we know, a little bit slow too. But yeah, the parts of especially Patrick's life that we see in flashbacks in this movie, that show the clandestine nature of going into cruising spots, the use of places for cottaging, and the abuse by people in power by members of the police against homosexual men. Is I think one of the better parts of this movie, in like its documentation of those, of those experiences.

ROWAN: Stunning bit of history there from Jazza.

JAZZA: You're welcome. I know you didn't say thank you, but you're welcome anyway. Shall we go into talking about—

ROWAN: The movie itself?

JAZZA: Harry and Co.

ROWAN: Harry and Co. Let's—

[theme]

ROWAN: So as loyal listeners of the show will know, we split the movie into three acts and we name each of the acts. Jazza, what is the name of the First Act?

JAZZA: The name of the First Act is thank God for Everett because otherwise, they'd be some pretty flat performances throughout this whole movie. I just want to give a moment to Rupert Everett as like, kind of like look, we're following that we talked about in Bros and in other movies. Who is kind of like a flip side where Rupert Everett has, as Rowan said actively talks about how difficult it has been for him to continue to get roles after he came out in the 2000s? But in this movie, he has a relatively small part as the older Patrick but is really fantastic. Even though he doesn't have many speaking lines. His physical acting is a fan—is amazing. One particular highlight for me is when he tries to steal some cigarettes from the older Marion and they just all cascade onto his lap. I adore Rupert Everett in this movie, and I will watch anything that he is in. But we are introduced by Rupert Everett's character, the older Patrick being brought from we assume the hospital to Marion's house where he is going to continue to receive care. Marion actively talks about how she doesn't want him to go into a home, but their relationship isn't clear to us at the moment. We aren't sure how they know one another. But she seems pretty hell-bent on caring for him.

ROWAN: She's done all the research, she's Google—Google things. And then her—we assume her husband arrives home. And it's clear that he is not so okay with this plan. Essentially, this movie is across two timelines. So we have the older versions of Patrick, Tom, and Marion. And then we flashback to their younger versions, we move between different time periods within their life as well. And we kind of go backwards to learn more about a scene that we've previously seen. And so a lot of this movie is about the reveal of what these hints, at relate different kinds of complexities or arguments or past in their relationship, actually meaning. So the fact that we don't know exactly what's going on with the three of them at first, is kind of indicative of how we explore their relationship, the entire movie.

JAZZA: Something we do know is that Tom wants nothing to do with Patrick. Even though he has this other man in his house who needs— it seems around-the-clock care, he hasn't gone into his room. He hasn't said hello, and he hadn't seen him. And we see Patrick asked actively after Tom like asking where he is. So we think that something about that is there. Our first big flashback is when Marion and Tom her husband meet, which is on a—really cold-looking beach. And they end up converting, I mean Harry Styles looks great. That hair is fantastic.

ROWAN: It's fantastic the whole way through the movie. Harry Styles is Harris uh— is the MVP. I truly believe. it's fun. It's so swoopy.

JAZZA: Harry Styles's hair should have been in the beginning credits before Harry Styles, to be completely honest.

ROWAN: Absolutely stunning.

JAZZA: So they end up courting Tom and Marion. Tom teaches Marion how to swim. I'm pretty sure at some point, Marion kicks him in the balls when they— when they lie down, which isn't an adorable little moment.

ROWAN: She does. We love—we love a bit of physical comedy. And it's very much like two very opposites attract vibes. We learned that Tom apparently normally goes off to like bimbos basically. The fit 1950s version of bimbos, which I think is just like a busty woman is how it's described. Whereas Marion has this very dimia, very sweet, an innocent school teacher. They have this, you know, very reciprocal teaching relationship, where he's teaching her how to swim and being bold about it. And then he wants to know a bit more about art. And so she is taking him to the library on these cute little dates. So this is all—this is all within my older Marion sort of memory. We see her sort of staring out of the window, and we lululu like go into her memory. So this is how she's remembering the beginning of their relationship.

JAZZA: And this is also where the problem of Harry Styles begins rearing its ugly head. So I— in my notes, I initially say, is this a character choice of Harry being so wooden? That does sound like a valid character choice for a— for somebody who is a bit, laddie, maybe not as in touch with his emotions.

ROWAN: It could have been.

JAZZA: It could have been. But as we go on, it just seems that Harry Styles is not capable of—he's capable of saying the lines and very little else.

ROWAN: Yeah. I also felt the same way. Like, as I was watching, you'd watched it slightly before me. And so I— I knew that your feelings about Harry Styles in this movie were not overly positive. You didn't give too much away. But I believe that you sent me three messages in a row that was just oh, no, oh, no, Harry. Oh, no, he's out of his depth.

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: Which I feel like was kind of how I felt as well. So I've recently been watching House of the Dragon. And that also has a dual timeline. There's like multiple actors playing the same character at different ages. And I really felt the connection between those characters. I really felt that the younger one had grown up and become the older one. And there were techniques that were done on set, apparently to make that happen. So for example, they would have the younger actresses do the older actresses, scenes, and vice versa. They were really thinking about how we're going to make it seem like not just with their hair or their costumes, but with their performances that they were the same. Jazza, did you feel like there was a connection between the younger and the older versions of these characters?

JAZZA: I—actually, for the first maybe like half an hour, 40 minutes, I thought that Rupert Everett was playing the older Harry Styles because I wasn't really paying attention to the names very much. But I—I think this was one of the biggest problems, was the disconnect between the performances of the older and younger characters of Tom specifically and also to a certain extent, Marion, but less, less so. I just did not believe and did not understand how they were meant to be the same person. There weren't very many of the same mannerisms. There wasn't the same tone in speaking. They could have done stuff like given the same like a regional accent or something along those lines, but it took me quite a while for me to cotton on that. Oh, those are meant to be the two same people.

ROWAN: Yeah. And for me with— with Harry's acting, not to just rag on Harry, but I do—

JAZZA: Oh, no, go, go

ROWAN: I'm not gonna not talk about it because it was kind of very obvious within the movie, that he was kind of out of his depth, right in. But it was—his lines were all delivered, and it was so obvious when he was in a scene with Emma Corrin, for example, they had little changes, little intonations, little mannerisms, they were very much in the character. And we're reacting to the lines that Harry's character was—was saying, it didn't feel the same the other way around, it was like, okay, these lines have been memorized, but they aren't coming organically. And I think the moments at which that was most obvious, or any moment in which his character had to have an emotional outburst, which happens a few times in the movie. So you will see Harry having like a particular word that he decides that he's going to shout, or he's going to slam his hands down or get in someone's face. But he can't continue that energy because it isn't authentic, he's not really feeling it. So he's able to do that initial one burst of a shout, but he can't sustain that emotion across the rest of the line. And it sort of just loops back to how he was speaking before the outburst. And I think that that's like a shame because this kind of plot revolves around pretty much only looking at these three characters and the complexities of their inner lives and their relationship. I won't say it's all Harry, because I also think that the writing isn't necessarily the best, and the directing and it's not particularly inspiring in general. But there really was no subtext with, with Harry's performance. And so I think we didn't really even get a sense of like this in a world that was happening. I really felt like Patrick's character was potentially the only one that I felt like there was something else going on. Especially the actor who played young Patrick was one of my favorites, I think uh.

JAZZA: Yeah, he was really with it.

ROWAN: Him and, him and Rupert Everett, David Dawson and Rupert Everett, I think who both played Patrick at different ages were mu—like obliges more interesting to me than, than the others.

JAZZA: 100%. In the story, we are getting—continue to have flashbacks from Marion's perspective of how these three characters met. So from her perspective, Tom ends up inviting a friend that he's met through performing an arrest for him to take Marion to go and see an art gallery and have a private tour, with Patrick with this other character. And they ended up basically going on throuple dates together. And I really want there to be— I want to see the story and live in the universe, where the three of them end up having kind of like this polyamorous relationship.

ROWAN: And everything's fine. They just are vibing. It's a classic period piece moment of like, let's just do so many montages and like, essentially the same scene over and over again, of the three of them going on various arty dates together. And it's at this point in the movie where I mean you've kind of spoiled because everyone knows it's Harry Styles's gay movie, you know, that the, you know, the gay is going to come. But at that point, it's kind of this idea of, she asks this to me, a school teacher is much more obviously suited to Patrick, who is this, you know, art curator, who is, you know, sensitive and has the same interest and doesn't fall asleep at the opera like Tom does. But you know, she loves Tom and she insists that she does, but you're not— at this point, I guess if you didn't know the gate west, you might be like, always Tom gonna get really jealous. Is he gonna—is that going to cause arguments, all of this kind of stuff? But this is all as we said, from her point of view. So all of this kind of culminates in Tom deciding to propose to Marion. This, this relationship gets to that point, which is quite funny, because she sort of seems like, I guess like, yeah.

JAZZA: Will you think that he goes—will you think about it? And about it and says yes, so.

ROWAN: That's yes.

JAZZA: And this is where we cut back and we start to see Marion. She's washing Patrick a them because he's pretty immobile. He's not got a lot of speech, and he needs that kind of care. And we see her starting to go through his personal artifacts and read his diaries. And we start to understand the perspective from Tom and Patrick. So it turns out in their flashback, they knew each other before Tom met Marion. And—

ROWAN: Plot twist, everyone.

JAZZA: I know

ROWAN: It was all a lie.

JAZZA: So they end up swapping details because Tom helps Patrick with a disturbance on the street somewhere. They go and knock on a doctor who go running down the street. And then Patrick is like, oooh a sexy policeman. Yes, please, very much. Thank you. And he gives him his card.

ROWAN: That's a direct quote from his diary

JAZZA: Exactly. In that voice too. And Patrick invites Tom around to maybe pose for a portrait.

ROWAN: if you know what I mean.

JAZZA: If you know what I mean.

ROWAN: Paint me like one of your French girls, Patrick.

JAZZA: Not a single French girl on his— on his wall. It's all men. So he ended up doing this the sketch of Tom. And in order to loosen the mood, they start drinking scotch and three scotches in. The classic comes out where Tom says, do you think the sketch is going to be good? Basically, saying, do you think I'm fit? And then Tom touches Patrick's neck, and then they have a quick blowwy on the couch. And that's nice, isn't it?

ROWAN: That's wonderful for, you know, those who partake. And this is, you know, all big plot twists that we obviously already knew from the entire marketing of the movie and everything, but it's like, okay, sweet. And it's—one of the things I do find slightly confusing in this movie is how much Marion knew or didn't know beforehand about this, because she clearly like she doesn't want to read his diary at first. So we know that it has stuff in it that she knows she doesn't want to read. But then she starts reading. But we find out later that she does know about their relationship. So I guess it's implied that she knows that they had a relationship but she doesn't know any of the details and that Tom's like never talked talk to her about it. And so reading the diary the first time that she's finding out exactly like when it started, and how it went, and how she fits into it, I guess?

JAZZA: This is also where we end up seeing some of the contexts of gay life in the 1950s and, and shows why this is a would be a really difficult life for Tom to choose. And he actively says, this is not like that I want to do living in the shadows. We see Patrick going out to the Argyle which is still a pub in a hotel that you can go to, which used to be a cruising spot in the 1950s. And we also learned from Patrick that his ex-lover was beaten to death by policemen. Despite all of this, they end up getting married, everyone gets married, not just Tom and Marion.

ROWAN: the poly-throuple get married in the 1950s. It's beautiful. Now Tom and— Tom and Marion get married and this leads us into.

JAZZA: the wedding party and its aftermath baby.

[theme]

ROWAN: For long-time listeners of the show will know and new-time listeners, you're just learning. Every gay movie seems to have an act that you could call the party in its aftermath. So yes, this is the wedding party in its aftermath, in which there is a character who was played by Freya something I have forgotten her name, but she played Mini in the third generation of Skins. And I literally have not seen her in anything since. And I suddenly had a flash and remembered her, because she just has this one very small moment where she looks over to Tom and Patrick, like on the wedding day, and clearly knows that they're gay. And she— she's just like, oh, I see that. Like, ooh, as Marion's like, I'm the happiest I've ever been. And this character who's Marion's friend is like, oh, you got a big storm ahead of you. Who like—she comes back later for like one scene, but I was like, I really enjoyed this random character that they threw in, to like really signpost to the audience, like, remember, they're gay and this is the wedding. What the fuck my dudes? Like what's happening here?

JAZZA: They end up going on Tom and Marion. End up going on a honeymoon to a beautiful little cottage that I would love to rent for the weekend.

ROWAN: It's stunning.

JAZZA: It's really gorgeous. Very Instagrammable. I'm sick on the Airbnb. It's almost definitely an Airbnb. Where they have straight sex for the first time. And oh boy, does it not look as fun as when Harry and Patrick were having sex.

ROWAN: Yep. And then he says the possibly the worst sentence you can think of after having sex with someone for the first time which is, sorry, I'll be better next time, which is like, oh, wow, at you've got a whole life of this, look forward to Marion. And then it turns out Tom's invited Patrick to the honeymoon.

JAZZA: Of course, let's invite our gay lover. Let's invite our gay lover to buy a straight honeymoon. 100%. Patrick comes along, makes some beef bourguignon, and then vials up Tom to the point of him losing his dragon, slamming the table, which is I'm acting, oh, I'm acting.

ROWAN: And specifically manages to rile him up around the idea of whether or not they're going to have kids. And when they do have kids, with that Marion will give up her job, or like, kind of keep being able to work. And Patrick is like, yeah, you should be able to keep working like you've got this career. But Tom's very like no, housewife belongs in the house, like looking after the children. And you know, I said this to you earlier Jazza. But there's a world in which this, the writing of this, and the performance of this is such that this could be a really interesting exploration of how the internalized homophobia that someone might have, can ultimately not just destroy themselves, but the people around them in a way that it forces you to perform this like a toxic form of masculinity, and to really dig into these gender roles to compensate. But that's not what happened here. So moving on.

JAZZA: Yeah. So we ended up still during the honeymoon. Marion wakes up and oh, the, the dishes are still here from the beef bourguignon. Where are the—where are the two gentlemen?

ROWAN: But where are the men?

JAZZA: The men? Well, the men are in the outhouse, essentially cradling one another.

ROWAN: And she's like, I might have missed every single sign before now, but this feels pretty definitive. Umm oh no.

JAZZA: My husband's a gay. Yeah, whoopsie daisy.

ROWAN: My husband is a homosexual.

JAZZA: Whoopsie daisy. But she manages to bury that deep, deep down and then just fuck him again. Just to— just to try.

ROWAN: deep down.

JAZZA: And Harry Styles's character did promise to be better next time. It didn't. Didn't get.

ROWAN: It didn't it. Maybe next. Maybe next, next time.

JAZZA: Next next time eventually. It's a long project Marion keep at it. So we're back in day-to-day lives. Now Marion is taking some of the school kids to the museum where Patrick works. And Patrick announces to her oh, by the way, Tom's coming on holiday with me to Venice. Gay getaway.

ROWAN: So the funniest thing about this is Patrick and Tom have talked about this. And Patrick insists that he'd be the one to tell her, it's like, oh, don't worry, I'll do it. Literally, the worst where he possibly could have done it because he makes it sound like oh, didn't Tom tell you, bitch? Didn't your husband tell you? It looks like I have a closer relationship with him than you do. This is also around the time when Marion has a discussion with that wed— one wedding guests I mentioned. Play by that girl from Skins, where essentially, this girl's like, okay, so what are you going to do about your husband? Do you think your husband might be being tempted by this guy? I hate to tell you, I think he's been tempted to, like, kind of hate to break it to you, but you can't like, un-gay this man. Like is this is not gonna— you're not gonna be able to like, tempt him away from the walls of Patrick. Like if he's already into Patrick. He's in like, you can't stop that gay back in the box.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And— and it's like, wow, how do you know all this about homosexuality? And she's like, isn't it obvious? I'm your lesbian fairy godmother? And yes, there's this very awkward idea of like, oh, so like, two seconds ago, you were my friend. And now you feel about me completely differently. And that's just like a random scene. And then it's like, okay, back to these three, the only three people in the movie.

[theme]

JAZZA: Hello, dear listener, it's Jazza here, just reading some ads for you. As I'm sure you're aware, we are part of the wonderful Multitude who creates loads of really fantastic podcasts for your ear canals. And we'd like to give a shout-out to one of our siblings for Multitude every single week and this time, it's the turn of Join the Party. Join the Party is an actual play podcast, with tangible worlds, genre-pushing storytelling, and collaborators who just make each other laugh each week. DM Eric and the emphatic players, Amanda, Brandon, and Julia, welcome everyone to the table from longtime tabletop RPG players to folks who've never touched a role-playing game in their lives. If you're not sure where to start, hop into the Camp-Paign, Monster of the Week story, set in a weird and wild summer camp. Or you can marathon the D&D game with campaign two for a modern-day comic book superpowered story, and campaign one for a high fantasy epic. Whatever adventure you choose, you are invited to hang out with that crew each month for that after-party, a session held to discuss campaigns, joke around and answer any listener questions. So my dear friends, what are you waiting for? Are you a D&D nerd like me and Rowan? I can recommend Join the Party wholeheartedly, pull up a chair, and Join the Party. Just search for Join the Party in your podcast app, or go to jointhepartypod all one word .com. We are also continuing to be supported by Squarespace who can help you buy a domain and create a website. We in the past have talked about how we love using Squarespace for our website creation, giving us access to analytics, and the creation of email campaigns, because now that Twitter is dying, I feel like email newsletters are the only way to go forward. And also it's a handy place for us to connect all of our social media in one place. We know you hear a lot of your favorite media, offering their own discount codes, but it would really mean a lot if you chose to support us. By using our one here at the Queer Movie Podcast. All you need to do is go to squarespace.com/queermovie and when you're all set up to make all of your digital dreams come true. You can use the offer code Queer Movie to save 10 percentage points off of your first purchase of a website or domain. Just go to squarespace.com/queermovie. Now back to the show.

[theme]

JAZZA: I'll be honest it is —it's Venice where I kind of started losing interest in this movie.

ROWAN: Which is wild because Venice is I believe in Act Three, in which has Harry Styles's it right?

JAZZA: It—it does and you know what I did? This is what I'm calling the Third Act, is Glory to have his bomb, because they play Gloria over the montage of Venice and Harry looking out of Venetian window with his bare ass exposed. And—

ROWAN: I think it does say something that you'd lost the plot at the point in which, this was happening like this may be as a real, real death toll for this movie in your eyes.

JAZZA: There's a—there's a joke that about his ass being a but he— like it is a beautiful shot. But I just wasn't that interested in the rest of the movie to pick But this is where all the drama is. Because it turns out, and we find out later, well, no, I won't spo—I won't spoil this, but um—

ROWAN: You're gonna spoil it for the next five minutes. Okay, go on. how the movie explains it to us in order,

JAZZA: They get home from Venice. And Patrick is visited by not his policeman, but by some other policeman, because somebody has sent an anonymous letter to his work saying, by the way, your employee is a ho—homosexual and could be dangerous for children. He gets arrested, and he has to go on trial. Marion is like oh my God, don't worry about it. Tom admits everything to Marion. And he's like, I don't think he—I don't know if he says he loves him. But like, oh, my God, it's really bad.

ROWAN: He kind of like, it's like, you're not really sure whether he's like, oh, no, my darling Patrick, whether he's like they could find out about me.

JAZZA: Well, I wonder.

ROWAN: That was amazing cool one thing.

JAZZA: I wonder. And so Marion agrees to be a witness, a character witness for Patrick. And this is not an exaggeration. This is exactly what used to happen when people were convicted of buggery in the 1950s. So enjoy that fact, dear listener. But she is up on the stand and says, oh, yeah, he was like really good with the kids at the museum, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And on cross-examination, they read the diary entry that Patrick wrote about Tom, where he calls Tom, his dear policeman, and then he goes, and ma'am, what is your husband's profession? And she goes, a policeman, and then dun, dun, dun.

ROWAN: Say it. Say it clear. Say it louder Marion, we couldn't hear you. And she's like, a policeman oooh dun, dun dun. With that cross examination, he has been sentenced to go to prison.Tom can't visit him. But Marion does. And it's, it's also at this point in which I was like, I wanted there to be a more clear sort of relationship between Tom and Patrick, in terms of like, whether or not Tom actually loved Patrick or not?

JAZZA: Well, they told us it a lot. They told us yeah.

ROWAN: Yeah. But I want it like that thing I just talked about, about the idea of like, Tom was more concerned with his own, saving his own skin, for example. I think it's much more impactful for him. The reason why, which I feel like was implied in the modern day, is that the reason why he can't go into the room with Patrick is because of his own guilt, and his own like feelings. And I didn't get that at all, in the, in the younger relationship. Like, I feel like it would have been much more impactful for him to have been like wracked with the guilt of like what I've done?

JAZZA: I actually felt like he didn't, he couldn't go in. And I see this because of the interaction that we see older Tom has when he sees the gay couple in the shop. Where I think he's just— he would have been so scared to have like, lived that life and accepted that life. And he talks about it when he first hooks up with Patrick as well, like, this is not the life that I want to lead. And why he ends up choosing to marry Marion, because he says that it's a career choice, like in the, in the force, they say that bachelors just don't do as well.

ROWAN: Bachelors can't, yeah. I think to me, it's a combination, right? It's like, I couldn't imagine my life like this. But in not being able to give up Patrick and continuing this relationship with him, rather than just being straight as I should be with Marion. I liked doomed him. And so I'm not able to go into the room like for those two reasons, right? Because I feel guilty for what happened in the past. And like being the cause of that double, like not ever being brave enough to feel like I could be with him. And like maybe that time has run out for me. And like all of those things like that—the. But I feel like we're projecting some of this onto the movie if you see what I mean like there were elements that were definitely there. But I feel like a lot of this is me thinking, what would the character feel in that scenario? And what will it be enough for him to not just not talk to this guy for all this time? But what does nothing to do with him when he clearly is like, just had a stroke and needs someone in his life? Like, what is that about?

JAZZA: And I'm also still talking of that. And just to target that third. I still am unclear why Marion has brought Patrick to their home in order to care for him. Like we get the thing of she thinks that care homes are really, really bad. But I don't—I still don't really understand what her thing was.

ROWAN: I think that— I think that's her guilt.

JAZZA: She wrecks it.

ROWAN: Because here we go

JAZZA: Oh, yeah, here we go.

ROWAN: The big plot twist that we haven't mentioned yet, that we kept secret for about five minutes is, Marion was the one and we only find that out and Tom only finds out in the oldest storyline. She has kept this a secret for decades. Marion was the one that called in the tip. Marion was the one that sent that letter to his employer. So she is the reason why he was put in prison. And although she clearly like realized her mistake and tried to stick up for him, we know it didn't work. He still went to jail. And so it's— I think that the reason why she brought him in is because she is also guilty. And we also see life in prison, he gets like beaten up, and he gets treated appallingly. And like, we don't know whether any of that has potential brain damage for the amount of kicking that boy's skull was getting, has contributed to his ill health. But even if it hasn't just the idea of like, I see this man, he used to be so full of life and joy and art reduced to this. And knowing that she has something to do with it. I do think that guilt is like part of that element.

JAZZA: Hmm. Yeah. That makes—

ROWAN: Does that make sense?

JAZZA: That does make sense to me.

ROWAN: But that's something that I just decided, and that isn't necessarily explicitly said in the movie. And things don't explicitly need to be said in movies. But I feel like I wanted something more from him. Because essentially, the end of the movie arrives, Marion makes this confession. We've seen in flashbacks, what she thought had happened in her life. She's read the diary and figured out what happened, like filled in those blanks, as far as I remember it. And I say remember, I literally watched it yesterday. So as far as I recall, they don't explain what happened in all of these decades between other than I guess Marion and Tom continued to be married. And then they just never saw Patrick again, because he was only in jail for two years. Right?

JAZZA: We have no idea and what I don't know—so her decision is to leave Tom, to be a full-time carer of this man that we assume he hasn't seen in four decades.

ROWAN: And who maybe doesn't necessarily want to see him?

JAZZA: Yeah. And from her perspective, all she knows is that Patrick loves Tom. She's never had that conversation with Tom. She's never had that conversation to know whether or not Tom actually loved Patrick. And so I found this ending absolutely bananas. And I did not understand in any way shape or form because the movie very much frames it as Marion is now free.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: She's in the taxi driving along the coast.

ROWAN: That's the end of the movie.

JAZZA: And then she cries it's like, I'm free of this horrible situation that I have created.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And then we're meant to feel happy for Tom now being in this situation with this man that he doesn't know. But it's okay, because Harry Styles comes back and touches, Rupert Everett's neck. I hated the end of this movie. I absolutely bloody despised it. I didn't know what I was meant to take away from it, but I didn't— I don't think we should be taken away from it. The— oh, thank God. Like I think that Marion has that catharsis. That is not what I wanted out of this movie. And I didn't feel like there were these great Sarcos lovers finally reunited with, with Tom and Patrick. It was a bit of— it was a mess of an ending. It was an absolute mess of an ending.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: No me gusta.

ROWAN: Yeah. I agree that there was like a real nonreaction from Tom to her being like, yeah, so I was the one who like destroyed our lives.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Three of us like a while ago, like it felt like the catharsis that I wanted, was him being like, like, fuck this basically like abs— like this is how the fuck could you that felt like more of a cathartic ending to me than, like you said, what actually happens, which is that she tells him, this and that is like, and I've realized, what's my life even been since then, like, oh, I just stayed married to you, you're gay. Like, okay, it was fine. And like, I like you and whatever. But like, who am I—I need to find myself. Bye, peace out, I'm leaving. Enjoy your like Rupert Everett, who is going to need around-the-clock care, byee.

JAZZA: Who literally can't wash himself or walk like—

ROWAN: Who can't even get himself a smoke? And God does he want to smoke the whole way through this movie, just give him out cigarettes. And so yeah, the ending is one of those things where you look at it for like two seconds, like the imagery of it of like, oh, they're finally reunited, touching again, whatever. And you're like for half a second. You're like, how sweet, and then you think of any of the implications and you're like, oh, this is horrific. Like this is not—this is really bizarre in terms of what actually happens. And then the way that it's framed as some kind of like, we kind of just like leave them like the gays have like one second together. And then it's like more importantly, Marion is in a taxi.

JAZZA: She's going to stay with her sister. Who knows what happens next, right? The end.

ROWAN: This mo—so the end of the movie.

[theme]

ROWAN: So at this point is when we give our ratings. So this is what we thought of the movie and we rate them out of these six stripes of the rainbow flag. We give it a—a number of stripes and we choose the colors based on the symbolic meaning of the colors in the six-track rainbow flags. So red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, blue for harmony, or purple for spirit. Jazza how many stripes are you giving My Policeman?

JAZZA: I really liked both David Dawson and Rupert Everett's portrayals of Patrick. I also really liked the small windows that we saw into life in the 1950s that were kind of like, presentative.

ROWAN: For a second, I thought you were gonna say the small windows and that cottage, it was beautiful architecture.

JAZZA: I also loved that cottage.

ROWAN: Oh It was beautiful.

JAZZA: And not gonna lie. The Harry Styles is bum great. High-quality stuff. I don't think this deserves any more than two.

ROWAN: I'd have to agree. What two were you giving it?

JAZZA: And I'm gonna give it nature because that cottage is beautiful and also the East Sussex Coast is very pretty lots of white cliffs.

ROWAN: Yep.

JAZZA: And I'm gonna give it spirit for that historical context that it gave me.

ROWAN: That is stunning. I'm gonna give it green for nature and blue for harmony, not because use I believe in like the harmony of any of the characters or the ending, but just because there was some opera singing and they do that in harmony.

JAZZA: In beautiful harmonies.

ROWAN: Um. Yeah. I would agree it's a two-stripe, two-stripe movie for me as well. And I think that a big— this is not a hot take by us. I think the reviews are like, not very complimentary. And again a lot— it's not all just ragging on Harry Styles.

JAZZA: Oh, Wikipedia says mixed reviews, which does just mean bad, doesn't it?

ROWAN: Yeah, it does. There's like— it's like a 40% on Rotten Tomatoes or something like that. Like it's not— it's not doing especially well. And I— this isn't all just people ragging on Harry Styles. Like a lot of people are critiquing the director who was like a theater director and like not necessarily being able to carry that over into film. I think the writing is just not deep enough for a story that has so little plot in a way, like a lot of stuff happens, but you really felt like there could have been a deeper amount of writing to make it more— the characters more distinct and unique and feel more rounded. Rather than just being sort of like stand-ins for the storytellers all this time of like, the guy who is closeted and marries a woman, but is having an affair with a man which we have seen in these stories before. But I wanted to know about them, specifically, and I didn't really feel like this man likes art and this man doesn't understand art and falls asleep in the Opera, was like a good basis for a whole personality.

JAZZA: Although I have met them while out on the town road. Those people do exist and they deserve stories too.

ROWAN: Fair enough.

[theme]

JAZZA: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoy these episodes, then we ask that you consider supporting us on Patreon. As a patron, you can join our queer movie club where we do watch-along in our Discord each month. But that is the bare minimum that you can get my friends. At higher levels, you can also get our movie recommendations and a monthly newsletter with a curation of all of the gay shit that we find on the internet for that month.

ROWAN: So thank you once again to Jennifer and Toby for supporting us at the highest tier on Patreon. We can't believe that this is happening and we have your support like this. So thank you so much once again.

JAZZA: Thank you. Make sure that you follow and subscribe to the podcast so that you are notified when our next episode comes out. We have been Jazza John and Rowan Ellis. We are edited by Julia Schifini and are part of Multitude. Thank you once again. Bye.

ROWAN: Bye.

Bros (Queer Mainstream)

27 oktober 2022 | 54 min

In which Jazza is the only one who could watch Billy Eichner's Bros and recounts the best seggs scenes in cinema, period.

Support us on Patreon at patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast for as little as $5 per month to gain access to perks like queer movie recommendations, Discord access, and watch-a-longs. Thank you for supporting us!

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This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

JAZZA: Before we kick off just a quick thank you to our top patrons Jennifer and Toby who are supporting us on the Rainbow Parent Tier. You're awesome. We love you. Okay, let's talk about some films.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best—

ROWAN: –And worst–

JAZZA: –In LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I'm still Jazza John.

ROWAN: Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode genre is—

JAZZA&ROWAN: Queer mainstream.

ROWAN: Yeah, look of us were like, how do we convey mainstream in our audio acting?

JAZZA: I went like serious business. Please give this voice-over work. We are going to be discussing the first gay film ever made. That's mainstream rom-com by a major studio. Yes. It's Billy Eichner's Bros.

ROWAN: But before we turn to steroids to get over our ex, Jazza, what's the gayest thing you've done since the last episode?

JAZZA: So you suggested this for me.

ROWAN: You're welcome.

JAZZA: And I thank you very much. Because I've had such a straight month, I got a text from bloods.co.uk saying your blood type which O+ by the way, please take note just in case I need blood donations, is running low. The UK is having a blood shortage at the moment for O+ and O– blood and they were like, you've given blood before please come in. Now listen up. The only time I've ever given blood was during COVID when I was not having any sex.

JAZZA: And it was actually–

ROWAN: Humble brag there from Jazza.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: The only time in my life.

JAZZA: So in the UK, men who have sex with men, are still unable to donate if they are sexually active and I'm not in a monogamous relationship. I as a little humblebrag just tweeted out, active sex life here hello everybody.

ROWAN: Oh, hello.

JAZZA: Um, still being discriminated against, despite the fact that I am on PrEP, get tested regularly, and probably less riddled with STIs than most straight men floating around giving blood. So I did a little political activeness.

ROWAN: I also, as I pointed out to Jazza, love that it is still in the theme of Jazza's updates always being about his romance or sex life.

JAZZA: That it's the only qualifier that I have for my gay card.

ROWAN: My one is going to be essentially the– in the tone of what I normally am, which is, is that actually gay Rowan, or if you just decided something's gay, so I did a, I went to a horror movie marathon night sleepover at my friend's house. And we watched, you know what, one of the movies that we watched was the new Hellraiser, which does have Jamie Clayton as Pinhead in it, who I actually saw in person on an elevator at a convention.

JAZZA: Not as Pinhead.

ROWAN: Not as Pinhead. No.

JAZZA: Okay.

ROWAN: And she is so beautiful like it, like. I was just kind of slightly overwhelmed. But I also was with two of my friends and I thought that they'd spotted her and I thought we'd get off the elevator and be excited about it. Except they had not clocked her whatsoever. So I had a very private moment with Jamie Clayton about

JAZZA: One-way moment.

ROWAN: One-way moment with Jamie Clayton.

JAZZA: Lovely. And how was that? I love it, but you did it. So it's gay. It's fun.

ROWAN: That's how it works. Yeah, exactly.

JAZZA: Good job. Well, that's nice to know that I have a broader umbrella of things that I can use for the segment in the future.

ROWAN: Well, I mean, Jamie Clayton's like a trans icon. So I feel like his.

JAZZA: Sure.

ROWAN: And also I'm a gay guy, so it fits. It works. This is our podcast Jazza, we make the rules.

JAZZA: Yeah, it's our podcast, you make the rules.

ROWAN: Very true.

[theme]

JAZZA: We are going to be doing things a little differently in this episode because only I have seen the movie. Bros haven't come out in the UK. yet.

ROWAN: It is not.

JAZZA: And we are residents of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. But I happened to be serendipitously in the US last week and left a conference late at night and went to a 10 pm screening of both horrific jetlags. Managed to stay awake through the whole thing. So the plot section of this is all down to me. It was a week ago. I don't know how much I'm going to remember. But we'll see what we can do. So I'm going to be splitting it into three acts. Place your bets now as to where you think the party and its aftermath will fall.

ROWAN: But did you think, dear listener, that I was prepared to come on to this podcast and do an episode without having done any prep? No, despite not having seen the movie, I have, in fact, read all of the commentaries. Do I regret it? Maybe. So much discourse about this movie. And somehow Jazza hasn't come across all of this. So before we do the plot, I'm going to be telling them basically why the straights let us down/some of the gays as well in the marketing of this movie, the discourse around this movie. And more everyone has been saying about it. And then I guess I'll be finding out whether any of it is true, with any of this discussion around this movie having any validity.

JAZZA: The only thing I have seen, is how pissed off Billy Eichner, who is the star and writer of this movie. Is pissed off and blamed the straights for not going to support queer cinema.

ROWAN: Indeed.

JAZZA: Despite the fact that Fire Island seems to do fine. Uh, heads up listener, we will be spoiling all of this movie. If you are the type of person who likes to go in blind to films, then pause now go watch it, support queer cinema, and come back later. Okay, thank you so much for coming back. It's lovely to have you. Thanks for coming.

ROWAN: Without further ado, Let's wrestle in the park and make out. It's very funny that I'm doing the lead-in when I haven't seen the movies. I don't know that reference yet. And review Bros.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so the genre today is mainstream cinema. And this is kind of interesting, right? Because what is mainstream cinema, this movie heavily marketed itself as being mainstream, and that being one of its selling points, specifically, the idea—

JAZZA: The first gay movie.

ROWAN: The first gay movie ever, but specifically, the idea of it being the first romcom by a "major studio" in inverted commas. I think this is very interesting, for several reasons. One, I don't think that that is true. Because I think there are definitely a lot of movies that you can consider to be romcoms that are gay, that like have major studio backing in some way, I guess it's the one that was commissioned by a major studio rather than distributed by it, maybe. But either way, the idea that one mainstream studio like a big studio is a thing that we should be aspiring towards, is one thing that's kind of implied by the fact that it's part of the marketing. And two, it implies that these major studios are irrelevant still, which I think is in itself, kind of contentious, because I think nowadays, people are more likely to see a movie if it is made by a streamer, than if they are made by a major studio. So if you're looking to say, this is how the financial backing of a big company and a lot of people will have access to it. It's kind of more impressive to potentially have it on Prime or Netflix or Apple+, sure, sure.

JAZZA: Yeah. And in terms of being able to have the—like that accessibility thing, what's going to be seen by more people. I remember in the run-up to this, it was hanging on the fact that it was in cinemas, everybody go to the cinema to see it. And I felt like that was a weird thing in a, because I only ever really do that for like the really big, big, big blockbusters. But that is a different experience. Going to the cinema to see it there, rather than in your living room.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: Yeah. It's a—what do we count as a major studio?

ROWAN: I think technically, I looked this up for a video about this, or I think when I was initially when this came out, and I was like, I feel like I need to fact-check the marketing of this movie because it doesn't seem accurate. And I have a feeling since I did that. Probably studios have like been bought by the studios. And maybe there's only one left at this point.

JAZZA: me.

ROWAN: And so yeah, basically, this kind of happened. And Billy Eichner tweeted about the idea of like, hey, this movie didn't do well, because straight people didn't go and see it. And then he kind of had to like backtrack and defend the marketing of his movie. I think the quote was, the marketing is not the movie. And the tweets are not the movie. But he weirdly like it's a strange relationship where he—the people publicly talking about this movie, who are involved in this movie seem to want to credit Billy Eichner with like, all of it. They want to credit him with every success. But say that he has absolutely zero to do with anything negative to do with the movie, which seems very strange, like the idea of all the marketing has nothing to do with Billy, it's all to do with the studio. But then they're also saying that he is like the big orchestrator of everything. And this movie is all queer-made. And like all this stuff, which I thought was very interesting as like a kind of these two things don't quite gel together to create a full picture to me.

JAZZA: He's, he wouldn't, though, like he was the writer. I think he has producer credit as well if I remember correctly, but it would be really weird if he had something to do with the marketing and the way that they were trying to frame the film to the general public.

ROWAN: Well, the very first. When it was first being talked about, it was really doing it and he was the one who was saying this is the first like he was the one who used that as, as a cell. Right? It wasn't that this was being used by the studios and he like even retweeted a post about it. Like he was the one who first tweeted about it.

JAZZA: Okay, so it's Billy's fault.

ROWAN: Yeah, kind of, and also then he continued to kind of dig this hole by doing these tweets about blaming the failure on a straight audience. I think when you look at the marketing for this movie, like that poster with like the two guys with the hands on each other's butts, with this very like, classic rom-com, font, and logo and stuff. I kind of—

JAZZA: Yeah with the O with the like Cupid's arrow.

ROWAN: Yeah. And like, it's like the producer of Train Wreck and Bridesmaids and the director of Forgetting Sarah Marshall is what's on the poster? Then, it feels like who is this poster for? Like, who did they think this poster was going to work on? Because it doesn't feel like what. In hindsight they have been trying to sell to the queer community, to try and persuade them that it isn't just a movie that they made for straight people to see in cinemas.

JAZZA: They—in the past, we've criticized movies for not being or we've talked about some movies not being like explicitly gay in their marketing. And to be fair, this is explicitly gay like there's a not-safe-for-work trailer that is pretty safe for work to be completely honest.

ROWAN: Yep.

JAZZA: There's— like it's explicitly two guys with their hands in each other's back pockets on the bumbum.

ROWAN: Although I will say that there is a history in Hollywood of movies in which two men have to fake being gay together for various reasons, which have poses that are very similar, and the movie is called Bros. So there is, there is it, there is an argument that a street audience or people who hadn't seen that this is what the movie was about, might not have necessarily, especially where all of the comps are straight movies, might not have necessarily picked up on that as obviously as we might have. But I do see your point.

JAZZA: Yeah, it feels like all of those quotations of like, mentioning bridesmaids, and all the other kind of like big mainstream. Like I think those kinds of movies are like straight culture, trying to be like, hey, you like this too? I think it was trying to, we called this episode ma-mainstream. It is trying to put Bros in the same kind of like category, as those big blockbusters with like the mainstream comedian stars from the US. I don't have a huge problem with that. But I think that it was overly ambitious to try and do that.

ROWAN: I think that they're like the history-making aspect of the narrative as being the way to sell it, because I don't think the first blah, blah, blah, was like, was going to sell it to straight people, right? That felt like a thing that they were doing with queer people, except like we know better. So it just felt very—

JAZZA: We know better when Twitter and Tiktok exist. So everybody said this.

ROWAN: Yes. there's a difference between like, it's going mainstream, and we're excited about that, as opposed to it's going mainstream, and we're kind of be weirdly been guilted into going to see this movie, especially when as you mentioned earlier, so recently added Fire Island, which was even at first glance, way more diverse, seemed to have more heart to it. It was very good. And were very well received and came out first. So it feels like, it felt a bit weird. The thing that I want to talk about that I don't think you will have seen, that I think is now post the initial marketing, potentially getting people less, even less likely to see it or want to see it if they've seen it. Is the threads in the commentary by Guy Branum, who—

JAZZA: I haven't seen this?

ROWAN: So this is, this person Jazza who was in the movie.

JAZZA: Oh, shoot. Yeah, yeah. It's Gay Fat Friend.

ROWAN: Yes. So kind of down in his Twitter profile. co-starring, co-producer of the major motion picture Bros, is, is the profile. So he essentially has been tweeting a lot about this and his angle on it, which has gotten like 500, quote tweets at this point. So there's a lot of commentary going on, as well as a lot of people kind of discussing it, is a sort of bitterness, I guess. So the first tweet in this thread reads, in talking about how cruelly Billy Eichner, white, cis, rich, hot or not, hot enough to be a movie star, depending on who's tweeting, demanded the queer community support his movie. I think that is rarely mentioned by the rest of the cast. And then he basically talks about how this movie is great because it's so diverse. And Billy has like magnanimously given opportunities to all of these diverse actors, which a lot of people, like I haven't seen it but a lot of people have pointed out that like, cool but the two main people are two, like Cis-Y gay.

JAZZA: The two leads are Cis-Y and conventionally attractive. Billy, you are conventionally attractive gay.

ROWAN: And including a bunch of like people for a hot, like a hot minute each is not necessarily going to launch their careers.

JAZZA: TS Madison has a full six lines.

ROWAN: Love that.

JAZZA: I don't know what you're talking about, but—

ROWAN: And so he kind of has this thread of Billy basically is making all these people's careers, he's incredible, he's great. And then any criticism of the way the movie has been talked about or anything like that is like Billy actually has nothing to do with it. It's his kind of became peak that difficulty I was talking about, of like trying to have both things at once. And so yeah, a lot of people have had many thoughts about this, this thread has kind of gone a bit viral among these people talking about this movie. And I think that there is this element of not just the initial marketing, which I think if they, that just happened, and then the people involved in the movie, are just shut up about it, then maybe this would have been something that was just like, it's fine. It's a, It's cute, maybe we'll see it when it's streaming.

JAZZA: Tale as old as time.

ROWAN: But I think that this—this like sarcastic, bitter, kind of a bit cringe response from some of the people involved, has been what has left a bit of a sour taste in some people's mouths, who might otherwise have like giving it a go at some point and like giving it their money. That is what I know about the movie because I'm not gonna lie. The trailer didn't really tell me much. Like from the trailer, I assume that there's this guy who has low self-esteem, and he starts a romance with a guy who he thinks is too hot for him. And he works at some terrible LGBT organization where everyone's always infighting, and everyone has like the worst stereotype of, their individual identity. And that's the plot of the movie. That's what I get from the trailer. And like that alone was not of any interest to me.

JAZZA: That is, that is the impression that I had going into it as well, from all of the trailers and stuff.

ROWAN: From the trailer.

JAZZA: I would say, I, It's that's not right.

ROWAN: Oooh.

JAZZA: That isn't correct. Yeah.

ROWAN: Interesting. So I'm really excited to hear about what the truth is about this movie, the actual plot, and whether I guess at the end, maybe we could have figured out how they could have marketed this movie in a way that wasn't trash, to the point where me potentially part of the target audience has really zero intention of seeing, at least definitely not paying to sit in the cinema.

JAZZA: Good. Let's do that.

ROWAN: Okay.

[theme]

JAZZA: So there are parts of your assumptions of the movie that are broadly correct. Billy Eichner plays Bobby Lieber, I mean, it's basically Billy Eichner, Billy has to play himself.

ROWAN: Tough one.

JAZZA: And is a host of a New York podcast radio show, which I think in the opening scene, is on Facebook, he's on Facebook Live.

ROWAN: Oh, wow.

JAZZA: Widget and you're seeing like all of the emotes come up and all that kind of stuff. The show is called the 11th Cricut Stonewall, where he says it was trans women who threw the first brick at Stonewall. And a gay man definitely wasn't the second or third, but probably through the 11th Cricut Stonewall. So this kind of starts off. The biggest problem I have with the movie is where it goes from being actually a really good rom-com, full stop, and a really good gay rom-com at that, to being hyper-conscious of the need for it to be inclusive, and the need to revert to Asterix and say, oh, by the way, X, Y, Zed. This is what the situation is really like. Remember that this isn't like LGBTQ + community intersectional and bla bla bla bla bla. And sometimes there are points in the movie where it's almost like a piece to camera, where Billy or another character will do a preachy line for a few minutes. And then you're back in the movie. And it's like funny and banter and all of that.

ROWAN: Would you prefer it if it was just the Billy and boy cut, where they just cut everything that isn't the rom-com? And that is just your short film.

JAZZA: I think that is a better movie.

ROWAN: Interesting.

JAZZA: But I understand the desire for it to be kind of like inclusive and intersectional. But I just don't think it worked. Because I don't think that it was necessarily baked into the story that they wanted to tell and therefore had to retcon all of the politically aware stuff into the story at a later date. So Act One, I have called It's Debra Messing You Gays.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: Which is a reference to one of the

ROWAN: I got, I, I've. I did figure that out.

JAZZA: Yeah, there are people listening who won't know that, Rowan.

ROWAN: No, no, no, I didn't mean that. I'd figured out what was. I just mean that I figured out that that probably was a reference to something in Act One.

JAZZA: Oh, no, no, no. So It's Debra Messing You Gays, is a reference to a video when Billy Eichner did Billy on the Street, which was a web series. So there's like, there are so many videos of him running around Manhattan with lesbians going, let's go lesbians, let's go.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: So that's where that meme is from. And then there's also he has one video where he runs around with Debra Messing trying to find gay people and introduce Debra Messing from Will and Grace to gay people. Debra Messing also makes an appearance in this movie a sweet cameo as herself, which is a callback to the Billy Eichner kind of origin story from like 10 years ago, I think that is when that video first came out. And so that's why I've called the act as such. So Billy Bobby, the character, has a lovely kind of life. I think he's in his late 30s or early 40s, and has a lovely time being independent. Prides himself in being independent, and happy with her cups after he nuts in a man. He likes to go on a nice walk and wander around in order to clear his head and really have a nice think about the world.

ROWAN: Enjoys long walks on the beach after a nap.

JAZZA: Yes, exactly the same to be fair.

ROWAN: Dating profile magic.

JAZZA: Oh, I might get on Tinder after this, you speak that out. Good, good. Good shout.

ROWAN: You're welcome.

JAZZA: So Bobby gets an award, it—I'll be honest, it looks like the British LGBT awards like a load of moneyed queers in a dining room, patting each other on the back.

ROWAN: Classic.

JAZZA: He—he gets an award for best Cis gay male.

ROWAN: Amazing.

JAZZA: Yeah. And then he, when he gets this award, he announces that he's actually going to be the curator or he's like the leader or something at the National LGBTQ + History Museum that's going to be in Manhattan, which is where we have all of those scenes at like, at his job with all of these other people who are on the board of the History Museum, the Queer Britain Museum, I wept at the suggestion that this is the first movie but it's okay. This is a fictional, a fictional world. He goes out celebrates and ends up catching eyes with Luke MacFarlane.

ROWAN: Who?

JAZZA: We have—

ROWAN: A favorite of the podcast.

JAZZA: A favorite of the podcast.

ROWAN: We love him.

JAZZA: We love him. For anybody who hasn't heard our Christmas special episode. Luke MacFarlane has a long history of starving in straight roles in Hallmark movies and then got to stone a gay Hallmark movie.

ROWAN: I forgot to say this, but that Twitter thread that I was quoting earlier from the guy. I think the thing that made me like, maybe slightly biased against this man's opinions, was that he talks in this thread about how Billy Eichner basically is like making those people's careers. He mentions Luke, but it's like basically that Billy rescued him from this awful genre of like rom-com. I'm like bitch, you're in a rom—like this is a rom-com you're doing right now, and Lukes great at what he does. So go away. But yeah, he was trapped in straight romcoms for a while there.

JAZZA: Yeah, and Luke is the perfect casting for this I think, so he's this muscley toned dolphin-like smooth body.

ROWAN: Himbo or smart heart?

JAZZA: A little from Column a, a little from Column b.

ROWAN: Excellent.

JAZZA: So they begin flirting Bobby and Luke Macfarlane's character, Aaron, end up flirting a little bit. They start saying about how dumb gay men are and gay men love self-deprecating and complaining about other gay men. So really beautiful moment for the two of them. And then Luke Macfarlane's character disappears. So this ends up being kind of like a running thing of they'll be talking. Maybe they'll

ROWAN: ghost.

JAZZA: It might be. Actually, this is the sixth sense twist. You didn't see it coming.

ROWAN: What a twist! I did not see that coming. You're right. The trailer didn't give it away.

JAZZA: No, exactly. And so we have this running joke, I guess, of Luke's character, that kind of going off and having a threesome. And Bobby not really knowing whether Aaron is interested in him or not. The two of them end up texting and texting. There's like high banter. But Aaron is giving a vibe of like, oh, you're, you're very straight. Like he's using the office gifts, in their text conversations, and all of that kind of stuff. And then eventually, they end up going out to the movies and having like a proper date where they don't hook up. I know.

ROWAN: Shock horror.

JAZZA: Shock horror. However, we then have, actually no, what is the, however, there is no however here, the joy, and the best bit of this movie are all of the sex scenes. Actually, the best cut of this movie is all of the sex scenes spliced together. It'll be 15 minutes and I'll give you a big

ROWAN: That's a long, long amount of time.

JAZZA: They're so good. So at the end of the day, Aaron ends up being like, hey, do you want to come to this threesome with me with this couple?

ROWAN: That's love.

JAZZA: And Bobby is like, now like I don't, I don't really want to and then eventually gets convinced to go and they have, we have this cutaway of them like kissing. Like we don't know whether they've gone to the three-way or to, to the four-way or not. We cut to just Aaron and Bobby kissing and then it pans out. And then this couple giving just Aaron head. So Aaron is sitting, all of them butt naked. Aaron is sitting there with two guys on his crotch and Bobby is there kind of like on the side like leaning over, is kissing Aaron.

ROWAN: Bobby.

JAZZA: And he just goes, you know what I think I'm gonna go, and he's like are you sure, you sure? Then Bobby just like splits and bounces? More of these sex scenes to come, It's very naked. Debra Messing now. Debra Messing has done something controversial and I cannot remember what the thing is that's controversial, but she needs to make something up like she's done something homophobic. She's tweeted something homophobic. And so, in order to rectify this, she has decided to have a meeting about donating to the LGBT Museum where Bobby works. Bobby then starts complaining to Debra Messing about his love troubles and confusing relationship with Aaron, and Debra Messing loses it, it's like, why do gay men always think that they can divulge all of their secrets to me? All they want to do is a vent to me. I am more than just graceful in Will and Grace. And that's pretty much all of Debra Messing's character and

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: It is, it is lovely. It's nice to get it out of the way. So when they were out on the date, they end up bumping into one of Aaron's old schoolmates. And the schoolmate, then later comes out as gay. So this old flame that Aaron had. He fancied him in Highschool.

ROWAN: Ah. Okay. Classic. Classic. Yep.

JAZZA: So now, yeah, yeah. We have someone for Bobby to compete against. And we find out that he's gay. As a little seed for later on. We then have the second fantastic sexy and actually, you know what, I'm renaming this, this is just like Sex, Single all this acts.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: There is a scene that has been, that's on YouTube. You can watch it.

ROWAN: I love that you've looked it up, like you went to see it and was like, I need to double check if I can have easy access to this thing.

JAZZA: I just need to double-check this again. Yeah, so they're out on a date. Aaron and Bobby are on a date, having a picnic in Central Park.

ROWAN: Adorable.

JAZZA: I assume anyway because I think Central Park is the only park in the whole of New York.

ROWAN: Check out.

JAZZA: Yeah, they're having a conversation. And Aaron just keeps on looking at all of these muscled guys playing. I guess it's not rugby, it will be American football, won't it? And Bobby goes, you like those guys? You'd like, like hot, straight, muscley guys, and then Aaron's like, no, no, no, it's not just that blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they start wrestling in the park.

ROWAN: We've discussed this trope already Jazza, layaway.

JAZZA: We—we get there. We're, we're fighting. We're wrestling. We're rolling around and then the sexual tension starts. The best bit of the scene is that the rugby players come over and think that two guys are fighting at the park and go over to break it up.

ROWAN: Oh my god. Amazing.

JAZZA: And then they kiss and then the rugby players are like, oh, sorry, bro, sorry bro, and then bounce.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: We cut to Bobby's apartment and the sex scene. Were they doing the most over the top, oh yeah, you like that, you like, oh fucking touch my muscles, hit my chest.

ROWAN: Oh my god.

JAZZA: It's the funniest fucking thing. I'm literally there cackling in the cinema watching this.

ROWAN: We've talked before on the podcast about this weird trope, where like gay guys will physically fight each other in order for them to be able to care. So I like the fact that this came after they'd already like been making out previously. It wasn't like, oh, look how violence is inherently tied to our being gay. It was like kind of just in there in the middle of a fun little roleplay situation.

JAZZA: It was absolutely wonderful. After the second sex scene, there's another one their way. Because Bobby fucked it up with Debra Messing, you gays. He has to go up to province towns to court a millionaire to be a new financier for the, for that Museum. They ended up going up in meeting our Bowen Yang, from Fire Island.

ROWAN: Yes indeed from Far Island fame.

JAZZA: Where eventually Aaron ends up helping to get a $5 million donation.

ROWAN: We knew Aaron was, we were keeping Aaron around for a reason.

JAZZA: Yeah, exactly. 100% So there are a couple of things that happen in this province town section. Once we find out that Aaron is taking steroids. Sorry not steroids, so Bobby open's the door, and has a needle in his legs. And Bobby's like I didn't know that you take steroids, and Aaron goes it's not steroids. It's just testosterone. And sweetie that is, that is what steroids are. Steroids are our testosterone.

ROWAN: I was, I was wondering for a second there, whether we were going to have a surprise trans love interest, but it sounds like he's just taking steroids.

JAZZA: No, no, no. Just, just a himbo gay man.

ROWAN: Okay, classic. Yep.

JAZZA: And so this happens and Aaron goes, well, you like the fact that it makes my body hot and sexy for you. Bobby just kind of goes okay. And then it's not really mentioned ever again.

ROWAN: Sure.

JAZZA: They also have there's this moment where they're on the beach, and they're talking in Provincetown. And this is another one of like the two candlelit moments, where Bobby talks about the fact that he was always taught that he was too gay when he was in acting class, he was told he'd never be that, be able to be an actor, because he had, was too effeminate. Whenever he was interested in gay history or writing about gay history, he was always told that it was too much. Why are you always talking about this all of the time and Aaron goes, This is crazy. I think that you're one of the most confident people I've ever known. And Bobby's, like, it's all just an act. And then they make out again and probably have sex again. But that's off-camera.

ROWAN: So you're like unimportant. Moving on.

JAZZA: Unimportant.

[theme]

JAZZA: I now move into my Act Two, which I'll be honest, it is relatively short.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: But does contain the best of all three sexes.

ROWAN: Hmm. Excellent.

JAZZA: I am calling this The Party and its Aftermath.

ROWAN: Of course, we had, we had to have one. We had to have one of these. For anyone who hasn't listened to this podcast before, you—because you had to have not listened to this podcast literally ever. Because in every single episode in which we talk about a movie, we managed to somehow have gay movies just seemed to have a party and also the party's aftermath in there, sometimes multiple parties, so we knew it was coming. I honestly challenge any of you to find one that we can't party in its aftermath because it's truely.

JAZZA: There are a couple of times that we've had to like crowbar it in a little bit.

ROWAN: No, no, no.

JAZZA: There was always a party in

ROWAN: It's been seamless. It's been completely seamless the entire time. Okay, so tell me about this party.

JAZZA: They've been dating on again, off again for a while, and we end up at a holiday party, where it's like all very festive, crackers, Christmas trees, gifts, all of that kind of stuff. So Josh, who is the guy that Aaron fancies from school.

ROWAN: Yes.

JAZZA: Who is now newly out is also at this party that Bobby and Aaron are at. And Aaron starts talking to him, and then they have the monogamy question.

ROWAN: Oh, okay.

JAZZA: And I'll be honest, Bobby does not need a lot of convincing. And so they decide to end up having a three-way.

ROWAN: With Josh.

JAZZA: Yeah, so this sounds like—

ROWAN: That seems so fine.

JAZZA: Since it's gonna be hot, right? Well, to be honest, it is fine, because it ends up not being anything about Josh, because a fort, they put their hands, they all agree to like go back to Bobby's flat and have a three-way. And then, this fourth guy just kind of like it turns up in the frame and go, and then puts his hand on one of the shoulders. And then he's just that, and the best of the sexy.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: So they've accidentally turned this three-way into a four-way. And this fourth guy is just always there like—

ROWAN: Hi. Hello.

JAZZA: It's like always trying to insert himself into like this passionate thing.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: I literally really pissed myself laughing at this scene. It's one of the best scenes I have ever seen in a cinema.

ROWAN: Yeah. I feel like I need a supercut of this movie. But it's just all of the funny sex scenes.

JAZZA: It is all the sex scenes. Honestly, that was where this movie absolutely shone. And I'm annoyed that, that apparently hasn't been part of any of the discourse at all.

ROWAN: Hmm. Unfortunately not.

JAZZA: After they've had a four-way, Aaron's family comes to visit. They've never been to New York before. And Bobby is told to tone it down by um, so honestly.

ROWAN: Wow, what an original story line.

JAZZA: Maybe just like you had an 11, maybe take it down to a 6, that would be great. And it all culminates to when they're in a restaurant, where there are musical theater actors performing around them.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: And Bobby has an argument or like an intense conversation with Aaron's mom around the fact that Aaron's mom is a teacher and says that second grade, which is about seven or eight years old. So second grade is too early to start teaching kids about LGBT history.

ROWAN: Oh, Lord.

JAZZA: And she goes, it's a bit early, though, isn't it? And then they have a big argument. And then Aaron and Bobby break up.

ROWAN: Classic rom-com break-up in the second act. We knew it was coming.

JAZZA: Also. Sorry. We're not, we're not quite at the depth of Act Two yet for them to climb out of. There's a huge fight at the museum, which is where a lot of the clips from the scene of all of the other people who are on the board end up fighting. I only remember TS Madison, because she eats up every single scene that she's in.

ROWAN: Yeah, I was gonna say, it seems pretty pointed the fact that through this entire summary of all of the important plot points, which so far has lasted almost half an hour. You have not mentioned any of these supposedly extremely important secondary diverse characters, one time.

JAZZA: They have. They're not important. They're, They're not important. They have some great one-liners, but that is about it. They then end up having a big fight because Bobby wants to put on an exhibition about Abraham Lincoln being gay. And they're like, you can't he was BI, and you can't, the Republicans will hate it. And then they tear a pride flag in half. And that's where my Act Two ends.

ROWAN: The symbolism.

[theme]

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[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, wow. So dark night of the soul. Here we go. How are we going to claw it back from the brink Bobby/Billy.

JAZZA: So we're now in Act Three. Bros and Bros.

ROWAN: Okay, we're excited to figure out what that means.

JAZZA: Yeah. yeah. Wait for. So, Bobby is in the depths of depression after he breaks up with Josh. No, no, breaks up with Bob—with Aaron, the other white guy. Bobby decides to go on steroids as well.

ROWAN: Oh, sure. Why not?

JAZZA: So Bobby takes one steroid shot.

ROWAN: He takes one steroid.

JAZZA: He takes. I have one of your finest steroids please sir. And then goes to a gym, puts his hat on backward, and his cap on backward.

ROWAN: Oh Lord.

JAZZA: And lowers his voice. Hey, bro, spots for this guy in the gym, hooked up with him, and then when they get out of the, there's no actual sex scene, but there's a post-coital scene. Bobby goes back to his normal voice. And this guy in the gym goes What the fuck? Who are you? And then Bobby just leaves. So this I think really is the of the of the thing.

ROWAN: Okay, I Okay, here's the thing. I know that this would not, this would, and this humor would have been too much for this movie. But fully the obvious thing to have said then, like at this moment in which you just taken a single, a single steroid, judging by conversations that have previously been done and someone said, what the fuck. The heat in that voice would say, I'm sorry, this is just my voice one day on T. Wouldn't, extremely fucking funny, but I feel like this movie wasn't ready to go, go to these places of genuine queer humor.

JAZZA: Would have been amazing, sorry my voice is still breaking.

ROWAN: Oh my god. Okay, excellent. Right. This sounds incredible.

JAZZA: Yeah, don't worry. And we're going to like run to the end of this movie now. So Bobby ends up going back to work and reconciles with everybody else, including TS Madison. Wonderful, excellent. They decide what to put on. They say, uh everybody needs to be represented here. Really excellent, good job. Aaron, while they've been separated, has decided to quit his job and fulfill his dream of making miniature chocolates.

ROWAN: Cool. I'm assuming that that was referenced at some point previously in the movie or something.

JAZZA: It was at some point, but I forgot that it is, it is not important.

ROWAN: Excellent.

JAZZA: Then Aaron like sends a video to Bobby showing him all of the queer thing chocolates that he's made. So he's got a silence equals death chocolate. He's got pink triangle chocolate.

ROWAN: It's like a. I've learned so much from you.

JAZZA: That is very much my vibe. It's very much my vibe.

ROWAN: Wow.

JAZZA: And then they have the opening of the museum, Debra Messing is, is there.

ROWAN: Wow, she dares show her face again.

JAZZA: Again. How dare she.

ROWAN: Debra.

JAZZA: She hasn't been uncanceled within this And Bobby decides to text Aaron and says, it'd be nice if you were, it would be nice if you came. Aaron then has a conversation with his actual biological bro.

ROWAN: Oh, Bros and Bro.

JAZZA: Bros and bros. Bros and bros.

ROWAN: Do we know he had a bro?

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: Yeah, that was also referenced, what but also, the bro had nothing interesting to do for the whole thing. He was just kind of there when the parents were visiting and didn't have a single line.

ROWAN: Standing yeah.

JAZZA: But the bro was there.

ROWAN: The bro was there.

JAZZA: And so Aaron's bro convinces him to go to the museum. And then Bobby does a musical number in a country music style, because that's what Aaron likes, also referenced earlier in the movie, then they kiss and then they say, oh, and Bobby gets down on one knee and says, Will you date me for three months and then reassess.

ROWAN: I like that.

JAZZA: And then they date for three months. And we get a cut to Aaron's mom bringing her second-grade class to the LGBTQ + Museum in Manhattan.

ROWAN: Cute. That's growth.

JAZZA: Great resolution. I know. They're too young. They're still dating. And then Bobby keeps on asking Aaron if he wants to have kids. And that's the end of the movie.

ROWAN: Setting up for a sequel that I'm pretty sure will not happen.

JAZZA: Not happen. Yes, exactly.

ROWAN: Wow, what was, okay question? What was when the bros and the bros were having a conversation? Like why was Aaron not gonna go back to Bobby? Like, what was the actual reasoning behind this?

JAZZA: Oh, I don't remember.

ROWAN: Compelling. Compelling answer.

JAZZA: Yeah. All in all, I really liked this movie.

ROWAN: Oh, excellent.

JAZZA: I would recommend watching it. I will say it feels in this day and age where really I only go to like, to the movie for like an art house.

ROWAN: Oh, right.

JAZZA: Like a film festival.

ROWAN: Oh right.

JAZZA: Shut up.

ROWAN: I was like, I was like, ready I was with you when you, I really go to the cinema. And I'm like, yeah, I too, and you go to the cinema for, but I was gonna say like, movies where you want them to be on the big screen. Because they are like spectacular, or they're. Like, I went to see the Woman King the other day, holy shit, that go and see that movie in a cinema because it's absolutely fantastic on a big screen, not an arthouse, the maybe I would go to festivals, I would go to see an arthouse movie in a cinema because it means that I like have had to pay so much money, that I would not be forced immediately to like turn it off from boredom. So I guess you know, you get the best of both worlds with this podcast. Do you know what I mean? You get two very different—

JAZZA: People.

ROWAN: two, two very different people on this podcast.

JAZZA: If so, if I can finish my

ROWAN: Yeah sure.

JAZZA: Either like an arthouse film, like a film festival or something where it's like a shared experience or for like the big blockbusters. So like all the Marvel movies, I'll go and watch Wakanda forever there, etcetera.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah, very excited to cry during that movie.

JAZZA: There is no need for there to, for this to be seen in the cinema. This I think. And I know that they were so excited about this being a big blockbuster release. This belongs on the streaming service, I think in this day and age. And actually, I think that is the case for all of the movies that were referenced, like Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Bridesmaids, and other things. I think if they were released now, they would also belong on streaming services. And I think that's just where we're at

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: With this kind of media production at the moment.

ROWAN: I agree. And part of me wonders whether there is this element of like Billy Eichner, through this long career that he's had, getting given this opportunity and feeling like in a, in a weirdly in the way that a lot of YouTubers, you see them wanting to get into like mainstream. Like there was that period when loads of YouTubers tried to have TV shows. And it's like, why is this your dream? Like why? Is it just so you can sa—

JAZZA: Well it's because that's what

ROWAN: I had a blockbuster movie because that's what previously has been the mark of success. And it kind of feels almost like I wonder if that was part of it for Billy Eichner where it's like, okay, I'd been given this opportunity by a company that will allow me to be a movie maker, right? Like, write a movie that's going to be on this in the cinema. And I get to like it because that's what used to be a success. And I feel like we're getting to that tipping point, where actually you can have success, you can have something that feels like genuinely important, impactful, celebrating enjoyed. That is a movie that's never in a cinema.

JAZZA: And to me, he's a very successful actor, he's had four Emmy nominations.

ROWAN: But in terms of sight, it sounds like this was the thing that he released the way this was the goal he was working towards like this was a thing where he got given some money to make a thing he wanted to make, you know, all of that stuff building towards this goal. And I think that's probably part of where this reaction from him I guess, and potentially other people were coming from is the fact that this was not the realization of the goal, he thought it would be.

JAZZA: Yeah, 100%. I think that you see that nowadays with a lot of content creators, so like our generation, or maybe more my generation, cause I'm—

ROWAN: You're not that much older than me Jazza.

JAZZA: everybody wanted to get a like radio show or a TV show off the back of their YouTube channel. Whereas now you see people who have gotten started on like, Tiktok, and their goal is to have a huge, successful YouTube channel. And those kinds of like ideas of what is successful are really baked into what we want to achieve at the beginning of our careers. And I think that maybe Billy Eichner is a bit of a, I don't want to say victim that feels a bit melodramatic. But he's, he's a victim of, of that being like the end goal of what he wanted to achieve. He's made a great movie, it is a very good movie. The preachy stuff doesn't fit very well. It feels like an afterthought. And I'm sorry, it is not that, there are plenty of like people from different backgrounds in it, but they literally have like a handful of lines.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And most of that representation is around that boardroom table of the museum.

ROWAN: Yeah, it's not gonna, it's not gonna start anyone's career is what I'm getting from this.

JAZZA: No, yeah. A 100% Exactly.

ROWAN: What's that? Okay. Can I just ask, in terms of talking about the baked-in story, like talking about the central story?

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Well, is there a reason, because it, because I just looked up a screenshot of Josh as well. He was also white, right?

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Was there a reason why all three of these named, named characters that I heard about during that summary, were all Cis gay white guys.

JAZZA: Yeah, all of them.

ROWAN: Was there a reason like did it to you? Would it fundamentally change the movie? Like wouldn't have complicated it?

JAZZA: No it wouldn't have. No, Josh wouldn't have like at all. I mean, the fact that I'm saying this, and like, it feels like I'm grasping at straws for this, the guy that Bobby hooks up with when he's, I was about to say when he's on T, when he's had his first steroid shot and does the voice thing. That guy is black.

ROWAN: Wow, that was a grasp.

JAZZA: That's it. That's it.

ROWAN: Interesting, because I do wonder, it's like, it feels like hearing that. Like, if you had turned around a like, uh, well, actually, this whole movie is about, like all these people, the trailer was kind of a fake out. And there was all of this, they got to stuff like that. I mean, different, but it sounds like it's that wasn't the case. And it was.

JAZZA: It is, it's a lovely gay story. And I think it wanted to, well, I think as an afterthought, it wanted to be something else. But it's Billy Eichner writing about about his experiences in older gay man in New York, and that's fine. And it's really, really good at that. Like at its core, the thing that the movie at its core is trying to do, it's really, really good in telling that story. But then it tried to be so many other things, at the same time that it felt half-assed.

ROWAN: Okay, I have a final question for you, which is based on this guy, Branum thread, which was a tweet that I wanted to like, listen to what you had said before, then reading you the tweet, because I was like, maybe it'll become apparent that this is true. From what you have said, it feels like this tweet that he has done isn't, doesn't feel necessarily accurate. So someone had replied to him and basically said, this just seems very like hot white Bros, and I have a feeling that like a lot of people who don't fit that demographic, will feel like they don't necessarily feel invested in a story about these people, potentially also, because those are the kind of people who have like not necessarily treated them very well, with even within the community. And the guy replied with a tweet saying, this movie is about the dehumanization, white bros have committed against Fat Femme and POC gay people and the obligation to move past it. This could have been a movie that pretended, there's no toxicity in the queer community. Instead, it tries to examine it. Have you even seen the movie? Does that feel accurate to you?

JAZZA: It's a stretch. I will say, I've just Bowen Yang is also in the, is also has like a significant role in it as like the benefactor. As another person of color, who I forgot about. Kind of. I think it means that you have to view Bill Eichner character, Bobby as like the subjects that is meant to be like expanding Aaron's horizons, and to a certain extent he is, because he's like, he talks too much. He's,He's frail, there's a scene where Bobby talks about his concave chest and things like that. But I don't, I wouldn't say it's like a central theme of the movie. To be honest, it more seems to be about Bobby being able to be accepted for the loud, brash, politically active person that he is, and finding his space in the world while still being true to that. I don't think it's really got the wider commentary side of things down.

ROWAN: That's very fun. Okay, in which case, I think. I mean, I feel like I can't do the rating, the fundraising there.

JAZZA: Oh my god, do I. I just have to do it, okay?

ROWAN: So it's you. So you, you have the definitive writing of this movie.

Hot Takes with Connie Glynn

13 oktober 2022 | 46 min

Rowan is joined by Connie Glynn, the author of very gay book series The Rosewood Chronicles. Get ready for some truly chaotic Hot Takes about queer cinema - you've been warned 👀

Find Connie here!

Find Us On the line

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

We're a serious podcast and have a serious sponsor, Squarespace support us! Help make the podcast profitable by going to squarespace.com/queermovie, and by using the code 'queermovie' at checkout.

We're also supported by the Black and gay owned vegan cosmetics company The Butters Hygienics Co. - check them out at https://getthebutters.com/

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

Transcript

ROWAN: Just very quickly before we get into the episode, I want to say a huge thank you to two of our patrons over on Patreon who joined the rainbow parent level. Amazing. Thank you so much Jennifer and Toby. Clap, clap, clap. Amazing fireworks. Cheers. The crowd goes wild. If you too would like to be a Rainbow Parent, then head over to patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast. That's one of the perks over there. We also have other levels including access to the Discord, a monthly movie watch-alongs, lists of our recommendations of various Queer Movies. So if that sounds up your alley, check it out.

[theme]

ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and this is Hot Takes. In Hot takes episodes, I'm joined by a guest who comes ready to go with three queer movie Hot Takes that they will need to persuade me off in three arguments or less. I am very excited to have on the show my friend, Connie Glynn!

CONNIE: Hello. I hope you're all already because chaos is coming.

ROWAN: I'm very excited. Connie is known for being the author of the extremely gay books, The Rosewood Chronicles, which do not get enough gay street cred as I think they deserve.

CONNIE: They don't, it's like nobody knows it's gay, and it could not be more gay.

ROWAN: But there are no heterosexuals in the series.

ROWAN: You didn't mean– okay.

CONNIE: Which I didn't mean to do. I just didn't have time to slot them in.

ROWAN: Didn't have time to find the time.

CONNIE: That's true.

ROWAN: They take up so much time those heterosexuals. So yeah, we are going to be going one by one through these Hot Takes. Do you have a specific order for these Connie, that you would like to–

CONNIE: Yeah. Okay, so let's see. So some of these, I would say are a little spicier, and some I reckon–

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: Everyone will agree with and it will take very little persuasion. But that one's also kind of boring. So let's just do that one first.

ROWAN: Okay, we'll get that one out of the way.

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Give me the hot take.

CONNIE: Honestly, I don't believe even as I'm about to tell you, this Hot Take, that this hasn't already come up. Like I think I'm just going to be preaching with the choir. And that is Simon from, Love, Simon. His friends are actually the worst.

ROWAN: Okay, I'm–Pretend you; we aren't on a Zoom call, and you can't see my face here. I gave nothing away. I was still trapped. Wow, okay, what an interesting hot take, would you like to take me through your reasoning? Because I don't already have an opinion about this.

CONNIE: I'm sure this is totally out of the blue and nobody's ever thought of this before. Okay, so let's begin. We live in a world where for some people, coming out is really dangerous, and can literally ruin their lives. And we have this boy Simon, who is this very clean-cut American kid. He's very primed for the possibility that coming out could ruin his life. And then we have this guy who is literally blackmailing him. He's like, if you don't let me hook up with your friend, Abby, then I'm going to out you to the whole school. I'm gonna, like, share these emails about you to the whole school. That is an extremely dangerous position for a young queer kid to be in. That, like, come on, like not to get really deep. I don't know how deep you go on these podcasts. But people literally die over these things. And it all comes out later on that he was messing with his friends' lives, but like barely. Barely. Barely.

ROWAN: Just a little nudge.

CONNIE: A little nudge.

ROWAN: A little, little, tiny little.

CONNIE: He was like helping this guy, trying and get with Abby like giving him info on what she was into. And they're really mad at him. They're super mad at him, even though they know that he was being blackmailed, that he was literally being blackmailed. And this girl Abby, he even came out to her earlier on. And she has this whole moment where she's like, I'm so glad you came up to me. I know what a big deal this is.

ROWAN: So she/her.

CONNIE: Do you.

ROWAN: Do you, Abby.

CONNIE: This girl, Leah has the audacity to be upset because she had a crush on him. And it's like, oh my god, do you know how much this hurts me? Specifically that you're gay? It's really a story, really. We're all just; we're just living at it. Here's Leah's story.I hate it. And you know what, I expected when I saw this film, I was waiting for the moment when his friends realized, like, oh, we have to actually be there for Simon, like he's just been publicly outed, and he has no friends. His life could be crumbling around him. Our friend should be put on suicide watch right now. This is a really precarious situation for a teenager to be in. But no, no, the big happy ending is that Simon realizes how cruel he has been to his friends and he apologizes and they accept his apology. Fuck this film, fuck you, fuck everything about it.

ROWAN: So yeah, the spoiler that my face gave away was something that I'm pretty sure everyone who has listened to this podcast, even If they haven't listened to the Love, Simon episode that we did do, we'll know is that, I don't like Love,Simon. Made a whole video about it on YouTube. That was like my longest video at that point that I done, because I was just possessed by the need to express how much I agree with this Hot Take essentially, as like a big part of the reasoning why? Yes, agreed. I mean, you don't even have to go on any further. Although please do if you have more ranting points about this movie, and specifically this weird friendship.

CONNIE: I do have more ranting points.

ROWAN: Okay, you know what–

CONNIE: You better believe I have more ranting point.

ROWAN: I came in. I came in too soon with the agreement. Pretend like I still need convincing. Maybe there's someone out there that still does go for it.

CONNIE: So this has nothing to do with Simon's friends being evil. This is just stupid. This is just all round, like what the hell, come on bisexual people exist. The whole misunderstanding is that he thinks that cool guy called Blue - he’s been exchanging emails with who is the other gay guy at school who is not out. But he sees him kissing a girl. It's then like a big, oh, what? But actually, it's him. And kissing a girl was a misunderstanding. And it's like Simon, babe, bisexual people exist.

ROWAN: They are around.

CONNIE: You did not need to jump to that conclusion. And I kind of hoped that we would really have that moment where we'd be like, hey, you can't always assume someone's sexuality, like straight passing does not mean that someone is not LGBT. But we don't even; we don't even attempt to discuss them.

ROWAN: Do you know the wildest thing is? There's a sequel to the book, at least. Called Leah on the offbeat. Leah's bisexual sounds like a thing.

CONNIE: Oh, come on. Come on, that's great news, I'm so happy. But like, what– what the? I'm going to have a sip of my drink.

ROWAN: Just a little, little sip.

CONNIE: Her story, her being so upset about Simon not being into her, and that being like this cruel thing. And she's really upset that he didn't come up to her first. And that's actually a great plot point. I'm all for that as a plot point. Because that could be a moment of growth for this character Leah, and we could see that on the screen. Like other people that have selfish thoughts about other people's coming out journeys, could learn like, oh, I'm not the center of this, and my feelings are actually kind of irrelevant.

ROWAN: Yeah.

CONNIE: We don't do that. We just don't do that. Because like, she doesn't have to be evil. I don't have to be pissed off at this character, Leah, I could see her growth, but I don't get to see her growth. So instead, I just do not like her.

ROWAN: I agree that there's definitely– there was no reciprocity, either. It didn't even feel like there was a– I'm sorry, and I'm also sorry, it was very much your right on Simon to be like, I am in the wrong. Truly, I've just been so awful this entire time. If Simon was a bad person, fundamentally, there are so many other things he could have done to make the blackmail, like the blackmail of wanting to get with his friend. There's a lot of really bad things he could have done to make that happen. And instead, he's just like, okay, well, I guess what if I just gave him a chance with you? Like, what if I just gave him some info?

CONNIE: The thing that they're really mad at him for, is that he told him to go hard or go home. So the guy does, like a public proposal of romantic intent. And this is humiliating for Abby, almost as humiliating as getting publicly outed. It's like, you should always understand how horrible that feels. And you could both apologize to each other if you insist on having Simon apologize. But it's so weird the way it ends. And it is so much about his apology and him having to realize that he's hurt people. And there's never a moment when the friends are held accountable for their behavior.

ROWAN: Why would they be. Haha.

CONNIE: You know what I want? I want you to know, The Mean Girls Musical does that revenge party, what I want is an ultimate ending, which is a whole other movie, where this happens, and Simon's like, holy shit, my friends are the worst people on planet earth. And he makes friends with like two other queer people at school, and they orchestrate some kind of horrifying revenge.

ROWAN: Here's the thing though Connie, that would involve there being more than one queer person in a movie who gets any kind of like, presence or growth like there isn't other queer character. But there's them, like him and Simon don't really interact other than in these very few situations, which is like, firstly, when Simon's like, basically he brings it on himself because he's so effeminate. And then Simon being like, humiliated in the lunch hall alongside this other queer student.

CONNIE: The one other yeah.

ROWAN: Yeah, and then they like sitting outside the office and Simon not really having the conversation that really like; we actually want him to have this student, which is like, hey, sorry for the fact that I did nothing to support you this entire time. I was going through my own shit, to which the other student will probably be like, fair enough. Like it is very tough and then Simon will be like, but also I feel like maybe I had my own internalized issues because Simon also has this weird bit, where he talks about; he has that fantasy dance sequence, and then he cuts it short. And it's like, maybe I wouldn't be that gay. Eww like gross. And you're like Simon, grow the fuck up.

CONNIE: Oh, wow.

ROWAN: There's like a lot of internalized homophobia. But they kind of ignore that at the end. Like, that's not really part of the issue at all. It's mainly how much he needs to apologize to his straight friends. And I'm like, there were so many other interesting things going on within Simon's brain that could have been interesting to explore, like internalized homophobia. Because even though he is this sort of middle-class white, gay guy, who seems to have reasonably supportive parents, it's still scary. And there's still some stuff that you need to unpack within yourself. If you live in a world where homophobia exists, that like that can be internalized, even if it seems like you have a really easy coming out option. But no, they just– they just didn't. They simply did not.

CONNIE: So you agree?

ROWAN: I'm persuaded. This first Hot Take, I know that you said that you started on easy mode anyway.

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: But I agree. And I do, I mean, if anyone out there is like, actually, I disagree. Here is a logical counterargument to Connie. Feel free to tweet the podcast about it because I'd be fascinated to see someone be wrong in our notifications.

CONNIE: Yeah. Also, if you do want to defend Love, Simon, you have to like come to my house and discuss it with me in person.

ROWAN: You have to look Connie dead in the eyes.

CONNIE: Right.

ROWAN: And prove your point–

CONNIE: In my eyes.

ROWAN: Well, this is also fun, because I do; like me and Jazza have talked about this movie, and Jazza does agree with me. But also Jazza had a very personally invested experience within this movie. And we have talked about some podcasts before, but I would feel remiss if I didn't remind everyone that both of us saw this movie together. Me and Jazza saw this movie together for the first time at the BFI in London. And Jazza cried so hard that I essentially had to bury him in his jacket and his coat.

CONNIE: Wait. Tears of joy?

ROWAN: No tears of– I don't even; I think it was during one of the coming out scenes. But like the scene ended and Jazza was still sobbing and so in an attempt for him not to die of embarrassment. We had to stifle his sobs with his jacket.

CONNIE: Wow.

ROWAN: It was like onto a fun scene and everyone else was laughing and Jazza was just like, breathing heavily underneath his coat beside me in the BFI and the cell phone.

CONNIE: I think the only film that's ever happened to me with was Coco.

ROWAN: I mean, that's –

CONNIE: I thought I was gonna have to call an ambulance. I was like, I can't breathe from crying so much.

ROWAN: Somebody get me an ambulance. I'm in pain. This grandma she's singing- They're crying that much.

CONNIE: Oh, no, she wasn't. She was dead.

ROWAN: Sorry, spoiler for Coco.

CONNIE: That's why I am crying.

ROWAN: Julia, feel free to cut the spoilers for Coco. Because I believe people should see that movie unhindered by Connie's thoughtless spoilers on this podcast.

CONNIE: Sorry. Sorry. Sorry.

ROWAN: Amazing. Okay, well, you persuaded me at point number one. It wasn't a difficult challenge for you, but you did do it. But I would, I would love–

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: In that case to go on to number two, to go on to the second.

CONNIE: Oh, don't worry. This one is Tumultuous!

ROWAN: Is it spicy? Spicy one. Tumultuous?!

CONNIE: I will say.

ROWAN: Okay, that's a, that's an exciting word to hear.

CONNIE: Don't come in. Okay, so I didn't know how to write this down as a Hot Take.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: It's like three Hot Takes in a trench coat.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: I have titled this Hot Take as, Queer Joy Has Gone Too Far.

ROWAN: Already. I'm fascinated. The storm is hitting me. I'm in the tornado. Continue.

CONNIE: Okay, so we have like a history, a deep terrible history of Queer coded evil characters.

ROWAN: Yes.

CONNIE: And then we never see that actually do anything explicitly gay. Was ever like a guy sucking off another guy. I don't know what rating this podcast is by the way.

ROWAN: Well you can– it's fine. We just– we swear on this podcast, we've talked about.

CONNIE: Everything.

ROWAN: Jazza is, Jazza is trying to convince me to do an episode where the thick as we go like by genre, so it's like Queer Horror, Queer Comedy. He really wants to do Queer Porn as one of them, so that's the–

CONNIE: Oh, I will be there.

ROWAN: You'll be the special guests on that episode as well.

CONNIE: I've actually never watched porn in my life.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: I've never. I don't know what it is.

ROWAN: This is– it's actually really funny. I'm watching Connie right now and like Pinocchio style, Connie's nose is growing to just extreme lengths as in the background, just a load of fanfiction tabs start opening, frantically in the screen share.

CONNIE: Hey, I didn't say I didn't read porn.

ROWAN: You know what on a technicality, correct. Okay, so queer; so okay, we had a little queer-coded villains who didn't suck dicks? Yeah.

CONNIE: We have a history of queer-coded villains who didn't suck dicks. Thank you or they didn't eat pussy, whatever you want to go with. Or both, you know? So we've had what I believe to be–

ROWAN: A response.

CONNIE: The response to this has been that you mustn't do it. That you can't have these queer code evil characters. I would argue that we should actually lean into the queer code of evil character. And I would like them to be explicitly gay, and also evil. And instead, the recent trend is these like, kind of floofy queer joy, which like, has its place, and I'm totally for it. And a lot of it is very lovely. But it's not sexy, and it's not filled with tension. And it's not really giving the people what they want. Like, where is my Queer Daymond Salvator? Where is my Queer Spike from Buffy? Do you see what I mean?

ROWAN: You know what? I completely see what you mean. I feel like the equivalence actually allow them to be queer is a great one. And I think that what's so weird about this one, is because the aforementioned idea of like, you have one queer character in something, and then a load of straight people, it's like that worry of, I guess from filmmakers, or writers like, oh God, if we make the one queer person, a villain, that's like really bad because it's meant to be saying something. Here's your solution. Just make everyone else gay as well.

CONNIE: Uh huh. And then you can lean into it, you can have your evil character, because let's be real, all of us who grew up reading teen fiction, we like it when the love interest is like, kind of spicy, you know, a little bit of a bad kid. And we just don't get that in queer stories in cinema and books I would even say, and I do always think that one of the problems is that a lot of for lesbians specifically. Lesbians in queer Joy, TV shows and movies, they're usually in a relationship already. Or it's just about like the two lesbians that there are. So you never get this kind of sexual tension. You never get kind of like the mean, asshole lesbian character. You never get somebody to pine over like these girls got to pine over like Damon and Spike.

ROWAN: I feel like that they don't make them villains, It just kind of makes them annoying. Like if they're going to do anything, It's like oh, look at this annoying lesbian going on about burning her bra or like something like that. Just like one of my favorite films of all time does this, which is Pride. Where it's just a bit like the lesbians if they're not like completely perfect lovely people, are just kind of annoying. And so I yeah, I feel like having this– I'm trying to think of examples that we have of explicitly. I mean, for those who have watched the Listen to the They/Them episode of this podcast, which is I again truly; whatever as you think about that movie, an iconic title. They slash them for a slasher–

CONNIE: The Slasher.

ROWAN: For a Slasher movie.

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Chef's kiss. That's called Queer Villain Energy on it. Do revenge, which I don't know if you have watched.

CONNIE: Yeah, I've watched.

ROWAN: Yeah, is kind of like a tempting to get to that area a little bit, but I feel like didn't. For my taste go hard enough into the–

CONNIE: Yes, I agree. They didn't go hard enough. Because if they'd really leaned into her being this like super evil, villainous character, and then the two of them being perfect for each other and not into like, because we're best friends way.

ROWAN: We're like, evil, soulmates, evil revenge getting Queer soulmate sort of been.

CONNIE: Yes. And then, then you have this like, lesbian power couple, that like young lesbians can be like, oh my God. Like, I wouldn't be into this in real life. But it's such a fantasy for me. These kinds of toxic girls who could like have me wrapped around their finger and be like, mean to me.

ROWAN: Badass vibes.

CONNIE: You know? It's fun. Fantasies like that are fun.

ROWAN: Jennifer's Body arguably has that energy.

CONNIE: Yeah, that's a great point.

ROWAN: Which is that whole movie is, yes queer villain energy with tongue-in-cheekness to it. But I agree with like, when as soon as you were like a queer spike, I was like, oh, man, you're right. Like that kind of toxic love interest, like heart throb character, who's allowed to have that kind of nuance and be kind of an asshole about it.

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: This is making a lot of sense, this is all adding up. I'm on my little count. I'm on my graphic calculator just doing some sums and it's all adding up to me.

CONNIE: Yeah, these are the kinds of things you usually have to go to fanfiction for, because people just aren't putting it in popular media.

ROWAN: That's true.

CONNIE: But this is what we want. We want a toxic, sexy person in there. And if it's like Connie and Rowan endorse toxic romantic love interests.

ROWAN: Please. I think everybody knows this.

CONNIE: About me, my biggest ship is Sauron and Morgoth.

ROWAN: This is very– Yeah. For anyone who knows Connie, it is completely unsurprising, but also kind of fun because as we mentioned before, Connie is the writer of some very sweet, middle grade.

CONNIE: Yeah. Were mind are full of queer joy.

ROWAN: Yeah.

CONNIE: So even I–

ROWAN: But you also; but everyone's gay and so the villains are also gays. So it's–

CONNIE: Exactly.

ROWAN: It all works now.

CONNIE: Exactly. We have a character who I wrote very specifically as the standing for the fact that I couldn't find in any other media, these kinds of like slightly toxic but also like fun, hot, queer love interest. My cat is screaming in the background, my cat is screaming, yeah.

ROWAN: In agreement. And in case everyone's like, wow, I can't believe that Connie wrote these toxic love interests such as the; There is also a scene in which these girls like fully kiss in a cloud of powdered sugar. If you're wondering how sweet the other end of the spectrum got, that feels like the highest level of sweetness you can get to be honest and in a sweet factory.

CONNIE: In a sweet factory. But also to be very clear, my like, toxic; You can't see me but I'm doing like inverted commas.

ROWAN: Air quote.

CONNIE: My toxic love interest; He's all about consent, the like, big moment with him is that he asks for permission because it's like, I want you to have this fun queer character to pine over. But I also want you to understand what is actually okay and what is not.

ROWAN: What the level of toxic we're talking about here. Just like I want you to be evil with me, but like, I want you to want to be evil with me. Like, I want you to come to the dark side, but like in a way where you know what you're getting into, love that.

CONNIE: Absolutely.

ROWAN: I feel like this makes a lot of sense. Do you have any examples of queer media where you were like, you just; other than I guess, Do Revenge or you've just talked about like, this is what it needed, you just need to push it a little bit farther. Or if only we had like had a queerness within this relationship it would have made much more sense.

CONNIE: Shego from Kim Possible, which is so embarrassing to say because like everybody always was like, she gave my best quick crash, like bla bla bla. Has anyone had an original thought in their life? But she is so prime, she's like very sarcastic, she's got that like femme fatale energy. And if she had been gay, I would have realized a long time ago that I was a lesbian.

ROWAN: That's fair enough. I feel like that's–I made a video on my channel a while ago that was like, children's characters who should have been gay. And like, as soon as I talked about it, every single comment was like, Shego better be on this list. Like before they'd even watched it, they were like, I can already predict. I know what's going on here, because you're absolutely right. That was such a; already people were crushing.

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: So it just kind of made sense. That tension between her and Kim, Oh Kimmy, Kimmy.

CONNIE: Oh Kimmy. Well, that's what Shego calls her, she calls her Kimmy. Oh, thought it would be great.

ROWAN: It'll just make sense.

CONNIE: Yeah, but I have one more, because it's the autumn season.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: And everyone is rewatching Gilmore Girls. Another kind of slightly toned-down version that would have been perfect was Paris. And I always felt when I was watching Gilmore Girls that Paris should have been a lesbian. She has such like power lesbian energy. And if I could live in the alternate universe where Paris gets to be one of Laury's love interests, because some of Laury's love interests are toxic. Anyway.

ROWAN: Yeah.

CONNIE: So I just would like to have seen that. I would like to have seen them have a moment.

ROWAN: That makes total sense. And I think also, I guess like me, I guess similar energy is Elle in Legally Blonde and the love interest; the secondary love interests for her ex, for Warner's ex.

CONNIE: Vivian.

ROWAN: That makes sense to me. Vivian. Yes. I 100% would have gotten on board with all of that happening. Just Elle being bisexual in general, chef's kiss.

CONNIE: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, it would be such an easy one to edit, because they do that thing where they have the kind of the little narrative written.

ROWAN: But at the end, just like–

CONNIE: You know what I mean.

ROWAN: Vivian and Elle just got together, don't question it. The end.

CONNIE: They were soulmate.

ROWAN: It just makes sense. I think most queer girls and honestly, I think even straight girls understand or had the experience of a really intense female friendship like a really intense, especially when you're like at school and you see this girl every single day, and you have sleepovers with her and you like, I feel like so many people have this experience, which then makes so much sense on screen to me that it can go a various different ways. And one of the ways is that really intense, slightly obsessive toxic like we are everything to each other style, queer romance, that could absolutely veer into the villainous as much as it could veer into the very sweet couple, who just really like an old married couple from the moment that they meet. So I think it's just realistic, you know.

CONNIE: It is. And also, I don't know how common this is with other lesbians. But with those really intense best friend friendships, it's almost like you look back at some of them, you're like we were kind of toxic.

ROWAN: We were like too intense.

CONNIE: Maybe we were really mean to each other.

ROWAN: I think that's, maybe that's just you. But I appreciate your candid honesty on this podcast, Connie.

CONNIE: Everyone saved this one for my therapist.

ROWAN: But I do, like I'm convinced. I feel like we have the space for bubblegum, cute sweet cotton candy, queer joy storylines, but also let the gays be evil sometimes as well.

CONNIE: Thank you. Glad I could convince you of that.

ROWAN: Let us be the super; Although I will say if Marvel decided to make their fucking first big old gay character, a super villain. That does seem very on-brand and that supervillain probably will be dead by the end, so thanks.

CONNIE: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: Thank you marvel for that in advance. That feels and Disney as well. The first Disney prince and the princess are, in fact, evil. That seems like it, that tracks.

CONNIE: Oh, I'm kind of into that. So we've got like, but as long as this evil character ends up with the Disney princess.

ROWAN: Oh, you know, what? Isn't that basically the plot of Raya and the last Dragon?

CONNIE: Don't even get me started, ruining the Last Dragon. I was watching that film with my mom. And we're both just looking at each other like, what the hell, like when are they going to kiss?

ROWAN: That's gay.

CONNIE: That; you know what that is the perfect example of this of like, we have this really intense female friendship when they were younger. And then we have this like character, who's been driven to villainy by her conformity to her society and to her family, and now is coming back for revenge and, and then they kiss.

ROWAN: It always these characters actually exist. And if they'd be one queer writer in the room, or if queer people are allowed to actually say anything, then we would have had this already and we wouldn't be discussing it in a podcast.

CONNIE: There we go.

[Theme]

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And finally, if you have been listening to this Podcast so far, and you're like, I really love what's going on here, I want more of this, but I have listened to the entire backlog of the Queer Movie Podcast. Well, let me introduce you to another podcast from the multitude collective, Spirits. Spirits, as I've said before on this podcast, was the multitude show that I listened to first. It was my gateway, my gateway into Multitude. It's amazing. It is hosted by the wonderful Amanda and the amazing Julia, who edits this very podcast. It is essentially like a cross between a history and a comedy podcast with some storytelling in there. And it talks about everything: Folklore, Mythology and the Occult. Love it, but specifically through the lens of the hosts and their guests. So that might be through the lens of Feminism, Queerness, Adult, Modern Adulthood, Modern Life, incredible stuff. Every week, they tell stories, they dig into Mythology, they do a ton of research. They tell listeners stories, which are some of my favorite episodes of weird Folklore or Legends in their towns, over drinks, Spirits get it. It's got a double meaning iconic, and that includes like everything from Mythology that you've never heard of before to things that maybe you think you're familiar with, like Werewolf Mythology, but looking at it from, you know, cultures that you may not have heard their specific Werewolf Legends. And the good news is if you are looking for a podcast to dive into, they have over 300 episodes released over the past six years and you don't have to have, you know what, listen to them in order. You can go through, check out the titles, see what kind of vibes with you. There is so much to enjoy in this podcast. Whether you want to analyze mental health and Mythology or listen to some creepy modern ghost stories. I highly recommend you dive in at spiritspodcast.com or search for Spirits wherever you download your podcasts.

[theme]

ROWAN: Well, then we got. I mean, I'm convinced about the second one. So I feel like we can go on to the finale.

CONNIE: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: I don't know whether this is the spiciest take, is that why you've left her last?

CONNIE: It's a take.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: It's a take. It's something I have taken from my mind.

ROWAN: Excellent. I mean, that's why we came up with this format, honestly, just to have some unhinged vibes, as well as a well-thought-out point.

CONNIE: This podcast exists. This podcast was created for this moment.

ROWAN: Okay. Okay. Give it to me.

CONNIE: You guys can't see the eyes that I'm making right.

ROWAN: The crazy faces that I'm seeing. It's also great because since we started recording, the sun has gone down. And so Connie is also just in the darkness.

CONNIE: I actually am the, the evil queer-coded character that TV warned you about.

ROWAN: Yeah, I didn't want to say it. But essentially, that second take was, I just want to see myself on screen from Connie, which I also respect.

CONNIE: So this last one, and it's not just a personal preference. I'm going to preface by saying that I genuinely believe that this would be better for all people involved.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: Edward Cullen should have been played by Kristen Stewart.

ROWAN: I would like to just very quickly ask a clarifying point. Would she also have been playing Bella?

CONNIE: No.

ROWAN: Okay. That felt important to us.

CONNIE: That's a really good question. I'm glad you asked.

ROWAN: I just like to understand the full scope of the Hot Take, before I get to the questioning. Okay, so, so explain what you've just brought to the table.

CONNIE: So, Edward Cullen, I don't know how familiar people are with westerns, but he has a real cowboy energy to him. He is a recluse. He's kind of lived alone. It's always part of his identity, that even though he would quite like to form relationships, he feels the burden of his lonesome soul. And that he must be alone because he's a ramblin man.

ROWAN: Yeah.

CONNIE: He is doomed to this life. This is a very cowboy approach to life. And it's like a common thing that is addressed within cowboy movies, westerns.

ROWAN: So can I just quickly say, so far you've made a very good argument for why Twilight should have been a Western. I'm waiting for the bit of this argument that then brings queers you're into it. So please, please continue. I'm sold already on a totally different Hot Take, but I'm; I'm back in it.

CONNIE: Kristen Stewart is a fucking cowboy. She is a fucking cowboy. She is not a demure girl. She's not a sweet little girl who needs saving. She's not the project you love. She is a fucking cowboy. If you've ever seen an interview with her where she's like driving her car, and she's like holding a cigarette, and she's chatting and flirting with the person she's talking to, but in a way that gives you a sense that she is this distant soul that you cannot really engage with. She's Edward Cullen. She's Edward Cullen through and through. Her as a human being. She is more Edward Cullen than Robert Pattinson will ever be able to understand.

ROWAN: So okay, here's the thing. I don't disagree with this. And I would go so far as to say that Bella Swan feels a lot of emotions under the surface and doesn't necessarily fill them on the surface, an outsider to this town. I don't see a reason why Robert couldn't play Bella. I've seen that boy in the behind the scenes of Harry Potter. He notoriously didn't speak to anyone, he just sat in a corner awkwardly. And no one really knows, we're just like, oh, no, I guess Robert's in this movie. And I truly feel like that's Bella Swan energy.

CONNIE: He's Bella Swan.

ROWAN: I think he's Bella Swan. And I think she's Edward Cullen.

CONNIE: Yeah, they got it the wrong way round. Like the fundamental issue with these films, is that they cast these characters the wrong way around.

ROWAN: This is genius. This is the gender swap of it all. Although if we did go with it being a queer movie where Bella is played by a girl, who are we thinking works as an option.

CONNIE: Alongside her.

ROWAN: Alongside.

CONNIE: Now this is great, this is what I – I stay up all night thinking about, like who should have been Bella Swan in my superior Christian Sue Edward Cullen Universe.

ROWAN: Yeah, I'd be disappointed if you hadn't stayed up all night thinking about this. I alternatively will allow you to give me an offer of who could play Edward if Robert was playing Bella. I mean, obviously, they could all just be bisexual and they would still be a queer movie. But if we were casting two girls/two boys/ some non binary people involved. What are we thinking?

CONNIE: Holy shit. There's so many options. So who is my like gay Edward Cullen.

ROWAN: Who's my gay Edward Cullen.

CONNIE: Who's my gay cowboy Edward Cullen. I don't know. How old is Edward? He's like 20.

ROWAN: Edwards, oh, I don't actually know when he– Oh, no. I'm really hoping that he– I don't know why thinking oh, if he died when he was 18 that makes it any better that he's like 300 years old. Like, oh, yeah, it's fine. As long as his body is out of a new born teen.

CONNIE: It goes back around. It goes back around. It goes back around. Once you hit 150 years old. It's okay. Again.

ROWAN: That's just vampire law. That's how it works.

CONNIE: Exactly. The older you get And you get the more okay it is.

ROWAN: The better it is. Sure.

CONNIE: Like 2000 years old. Absolutely Okay. No one is arguing with that.

ROWAN: I'm literally. I'm literally like, what if I just Google cowboy actors? And I'm like, I don't know if that's gonna be a– if I just search gay cowboy actors. I don't think it's gonna give me what I need.

CONNIE: You know what I would love. I would love Twilight, but it is– Mark Hamill, as Bella Swan.

ROWAN: Yes.

CONNIE: Come on. You can fill in the blank.

ROWAN: Wait, Harrison Ford?

CONNIE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Oh, no. You're correct. Did you just invent Star Wars? Did you just invent Star Wars?

CONNIE: I think I just improved Star Wars.

ROWAN: That's– You know what? You're not wrong. That makes complete sense. There's too many of these, too many of these. You know, these young up and coming actors have sociable charisma. You know what I mean? Tom Holland is never gonna be an Edward or a Bella.

CONNIE: No.

ROWAN: The boy has too much light behind his eyes.

CONNIE: But Zendaya, the guy can be an Edward.

ROWAN: Oh, yes. It's annoying that we need Bella. We need to find a girl.

CONNIE: I find her so hard to cast. I think Bella is hard to cast because everyone reads that book and just imagines themselves on Bella.

ROWAN: That's fair. Are you playing Bella alongside?

CONNIE: I'm Bella Swan, let's do it. I think I would be the worst Bella Swan in the whole world. Like if you put me in that situation where I met a vampire. I would just be like, are you fucking kidding? Bite me right now.

ROWAN: No restraint. Absolutely zero.

CONNIE: I would have joined the Volturi. I would have been like, I want to wear one of these sexy velvet outfits.

ROWAN: Oh my god. I love it. This– I mean, like you. I don't know whether you had any other points for this take or whether– it was just vibes.

CONNIE: I mean, I feel like the point I wanted to make was that Kristen Stewart is a kind of Edward Cullen.

ROWAN: Is a cowboy.

CONNIE: And she's a cowboy. I'm not even one of these, like hardcore Kristen Stewart fan girl lesbians. I think like, yeah, she's cool, she's hot,she's awkward,she's weird. She's fucking cowboy. She's not for us. She's for the road.

ROWAN: This was like so– a long way round to make that point. Like you could have just been like, I think Kirsten Stewart should play a cowboy, should be cast as a lead in a western. That would have all the loans. I really respect that you just took this point so hard, all the way around the house is incredible. Because also yeah, now I'm thinking about it. And I'm like, I would 100% watch your West. I mean, like, I would not watch a Western for basically any other reason other than it being gay. Let's be real here.

CONNIE: Oh, I've got some news for you.

ROWAN: Okay.

CONNIE: A lot of westerns are extremely queer coded.

ROWAN: In which case.

CONNIE: Have you heard about Brokeback Mountain?

ROWAN: Have you ever heard? I just Google Kristen Stewart cowboy. And there is an incredible image of her with a cowboy hat photoshopped on. I was really hoping that I was going to come up with a Kristen Stewart cast in a cowboy movie.

CONNIE: Wasn't there a movie where she played like that female serial killer. That murderer?

ROWAN: Yeah, it is called. It's like one. It's the name– Lizzie.

CONNIE: Something gay from mother– Lizzie Borden.

ROWAN: That's the one.

CONNIE: Yeah,what happened to that?

ROWAN: So she did the villain thing.

CONNIE: She did do the sexy villain thing.

ROWAN: She did. She did like your second Hot Take. That's the range. The range that she has.

CONNIE: Come on Kristen, I want to see you in a cowboy movie.

ROWAN: You've done vampire. You've done murderer. You've done like a weird arthouse film. The only thing left is a cowboy. Surely we’re due for a Renaissance.

CONNIE: I mean, I guess she's giving me cowboy in her day to day life.

ROWAN: Yeah. And you know that's enough for us. We don't oppress you into making those kinds of career decisions. Kristen as we know, you're listening to this obviously. Longtime listener, first time caller of the show, Kristen Stewart coming to a guest episode soon. I can only dream.

CONNIE: If she does a Western, I too will be coming.

ROWAN: For the benefit of the general public. I'm shaking my head and ashamed of this call.

CONNIE: And I'm raising a bottle.

ROWAN: Raising, raising your glass. I mean that yeah, that's– I think you've– I think this was a clean sweep. This was a ding ding ding for all three of these Hot Takes. And you– This was very good, because I did send you a list of all of the Hot Takes. And there were already some on that list that you were into. So you've pulled so many Hot Takes out. You had them so ready to go, which I knew immediately as soon as I invited you. There would not be a problem with you having Hot Takes, it was just, which one you were going to choose. And I think you chose very well.

CONNIE: I know, there were too many, there were so many to choose from. I'm not gonna lie. I actually forgot I was doing this podcast, until I messaged you earlier being like, I don't think I have a microphone.

ROWAN: Just trying to get out of it. And I was like, Good. Nice try. But unfortunately, we have to record these episodes to give to Julia to edit or it doesn't go out. And that's not an option.

CONNIE: Yeah, I just– I really pulled these out of my Hot Take.

ROWAN: You did very well.

CONNIE: My Hot Ass Take. Thank you.

ROWAN: Yeah.

CONNIE: I'm–I'm thrilled.

ROWAN: Thank you so much.

CONNIE: Do-what do I win?

ROWAN: Um, absolutely nothing. Um, you–there is no prize other than just a sense of having power over me and that you managed to persuade me of something. And I think that sense of power should be enough for you. That seems like the kind of thing you'd be into anyway, so thank you very much Connie for joining this nice and chaotic Hot Takes episode, they always are. Except weirdly, Alex's– I feel like Alex's Hot Take episode was very logical. Which is bizarre because Alex is the most chaotic person that I can think of. He does the are they gay videos on YouTube.Yeah, no even more chaotic than you, somehow. That is everyone for another episode of the Queer Movie Podcast. Please let us know on the socials, whether you agreed with these Hot Takes/ if you are a supporter of the Patreon on the Discord. I'd love to hear about it and see if you can persuade me back again to disagree with these, to disagree that Kristen Stewart is a cowboy. Because I would love to hear the very logical arguments for and against. If you've enjoyed the episode, then please make sure to follow and subscribe to the podcast, so you're primed for our next. One of these bits of nonsense on the podcast app of your choice. And as I said, consider following us on Patreon because we do some cool stuff over there including monthly queer movie watch alongs on our Discord. And you can also follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram for some behind the scenes content as and when Jazza and I remember to do so.

[Theme]

ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of multitude productions, which has a lot more amazing sibling podcasts that you should definitely check out. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast, So you are primed for our next episode. Thank you so much for listening, and hopefully you will hear from us very soon.

Transcriptionist: Kristianne Benganio

Editor: KM

Do Revenge (Queer Revenge)

29 september 2022 | 62 min

Movies That Made Me Queer with Novympia

15 september 2022 | 63 min

They/Them (Queer Slasher Horror)

9 september 2022 | 64 min

Who Is the Most Heroic Animal of All Time? (“Head Heart Gut” Preview!)

30 augusti 2022 | 89 min

Hot Movies That Made Me Queer Takes with Spirits!

18 augusti 2022 | 63 min

Love, Simon (Queer Coming Out)

4 augusti 2022 | 67 min

This episode we talk about Love, Simon - and whether it's a Bad Movie or if Rowan is just reading too much into it. Let's chat gay high school romance, queer YA, and #ownvoices.

This podcast needs your help to keep going. We are still losing money and need your support on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast and join for as little as $5 per month and we will provide you with personalised movie recommendations, along side all the other perks that come with membership. Thank you for supporting us!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

ROWAN: Just before we jump into today's episode, I want to let you know about a special offer that we have going on on Patreon. So if you sign up to our Patreon by the 28th of August and don't worry, if you're already signed up, this counts for you too. You will get a personalized recommendation of a queer movie or TV show that we think that you would love based on your preferences. Very exciting. And of course, you will also get all of the other perks that normally come along with Patreon membership access to our Discord where we do monthly watch-alongs of queer movies, as well as top 10 lists queer newsletter that Jazza puts out, a bunch of cool stuff. So you can visit patreon.com/QueerMoviePodcast to find out more.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+ cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I am Jazza John.

ROWAN: Each episode, we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode's genre is

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Queer Coming Out.

JAZZA: Oh, Oh, lovely have we used up all of the possible teen categories that we could have done in we're struggling.

ROWAN: Yes. We've done queer high school, queer coming of age, queer romance, so we really weren't struggling but you know what these movies are coming out so it still counts. So this week, we're going to be reviewing the first gay film ever made. Love Simon, the film from 2018 based on the book Simon vs the Homo Sapiens Agenda by Becky Albertalli. That was a little joke courtesy of Jazza because he likes to write these little intro bits and then I have to say them, and he knows I have a we'll get into it later. But I have a little bee in my bonnet about the way this film was marketed. But spoilers for later on in this episode.

JAZZA: We have plenty of time to talk about it. But Rowan does have a 45-minute video titled, The Problem with Love Simon, so this shouldn't be really good.

ROWAN: I kind of spoilt it myself by anything I've ever said about this film on the internet. Which is why I was like I this is this episode has been a long time coming. I feel like this has been something that's been requested quite a lot. So we thought why not give the people what they want?

JAZZA: 100% we're going to be doing our best to avoid retreading that video. I can't wait to see what Rowan really thinks about this movie. But before we get into that, Rowan, what is the gayest thing you've done since the last episode?

ROWAN: So I probably shouldn't say this because I've been, I've been-

JAZZA: A lesbian?

ROWAN: But I'm a lesbian. No, I– I am writing a little thing that has some characters in it. And I just decided that they're all going to be gay, or queer in some way. I say gay but I mean, just queer in general.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The umbrella.

ROWAN: And I think that it's very, it's very gay to just decide that the entire ensemble is going to be homos, big fan of that. I can recommend it to to anyone.

JAZZA: Also just to saying, you know what, I'm going to go on holiday and become a novelist.

ROWAN: I'm just going to go away and just write a novel.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: To be clear, I didn't write the novel. I just decided what the plot was going to be. And I feel like me putting five fictional little queers into the world is pretty gay. How about you, Jazza?

JAZZA: Um, so I've had a pretty gay month to be honest. Until yesterday, it was going to be going to see Haim which just has really strong kind of like queer energy as like a fan base in general, you know what I mean. I wouldn't say it with our friend Dodi who has a huge overlap of her fans who also like I'm what a bloody surprise. So that was pretty high up there. But then yesterday, I managed to book my monkeypox vaccine.

ROWAN: That, I was gonna say that if you had that will be the gayest thing, awesome for you.

JAZZA: It is so hard to get a bloody monkeypox vaccine at the moment, especially in London, where we've got a bit of a where most of the cases are in the UK. To be clear, I'm not having the monkeypox vaccine because this is a gay disease, but because that's where it has spread most in the population. And I'd quite like me and the people I love to be safe.

ROWAN: Essentially, being public health conscious, the gayest thing that Jazza has done this month.

JAZZA: 100%.

ROWAN: Amazing.

[theme]

JAZZA: Hello, friends. Pray, allow us to briefly recap how it goes down here on the Queer Movie Podcast. First, we will give you some analysis of the key differences between the way novel and the Hollywood blockbuster and then some other stuff around debates of around representation in literature and film, which I'm sure will be fine.

ROWAN: Bit of a wider context of the film as we like to do when we begin after that, as always, we'll be splitting the film into three acts. Take a shot the new drinking game when you hear party in its aftermath, the name of at least one act, and every film that we seem to watch.

JAZZA: We will crowbar it in somehow.

ROWAN: We always do.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And finally ending as always with our very special gay ratings.

JAZZA: We will be spoiling all of this movie, I will be honest, Rowan probably doesn't think that you should bother. But I did cry several times the first time I saw this movie and several times on rewatching the movie earlier today. So I would recommend watching it if only to keep your tear ducts active.

ROWAN: So without further ado, let's publicly shame our potential boyfriend and outing himself on a Ferris wheel and review Love Simon.

[theme]

ROWAN: Okay, so let's start by talking a little bit about the difference between the novel, the book that this film was based on, and the film itself. So I actually read the book before I saw the movie and I liked the book, I really, really did. It's published by Penguin in the UK, who's the company I used to work for. So it was kind of like a big thing, a big book that everyone read, everyone's very excited about, even before the movie came out was very, very well received. And I really, really liked it. And then have just slightly subtly hinted so far in the podcast wasn't that big a fan of this movie? And I think the key reason is these differences between the book and the movie, the some of the changes that they made, I wasn't too keen on this and very, you know, irrelevant changes like the title and like-

JAZZA: The number of sisters that Simon has.

ROWAN: Yeah, the number of sisters Simon has, like all of that kind of stuff. But for me, the big stuff that is different is things like Leah's crush, for example, in the book, she has a crush on Nick, whereas in the movie, they change it so that she actually has this crush on Simon and is actually been in love with Simon this whole time.

JAZZA: Leah having a crush on one of their mutual friends rather than on Simon.

ROWAN: Exactly.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And then the way that like, Simon's coming out happens, and the movie really emphasized how his friends just decided to hate him for that and for his being blackmailed. And the ultimate one which you know, the fairest the Ferris wheel.

JAZZA: The fucking Ferris wheel.

ROWAN: Where essentially in the book, Simon does not tie together, him and Blue, finding out who each other are getting to know each other potentially wanting to date in real life. He doesn't tie it in with like an ultimatum for Blue to come out very publicly, while people watch on to find out who he is like, everything like putting that kind of pressure on him, which is essentially the big finale of Love Simon, which we will talk more about when we get to it because I think it's very tied to a lot of classic romance movie tropes and teen movie tropes, which work for heterosexual characters for various reasons, but which get a bit sticky when we are putting them into a movie, which is not just about queer teens, but explicitly a homophobic environment that they've they've kind of set up within this world. So there are there are like a bunch of smaller differences. But for me, the big differences is the ending and the way that these two things kind of play out in the movie as well, for example, like Blue basically tells Simon like I don't want anything to do with you don't email me anymore. Whereas in the book, it's like a classic bit of miscommunication where Blue did want Simon to message him and actually gave him his phone number, but Simon doesn't find it until later and thinks that Blue doesn't want anything to do with him. So it's kind of like a some differences that I think were changed for the worse within the movie. I would be remiss, however, if I let I just wanted to get that context out there first, but I want to just circle back really quickly to something that Jazza said.

JAZZA: Oh, no.

ROWAN: Well, Jazza was like, "Oh, I did cry the first time I saw this movie." I was with Jazza the first time he saw this movie, we saw it at the BFI, right?

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: We were in the big NFT the big-

JAZZA: MFT

ROWAN: MFT. It's the name of the screen.

JAZZA: Okay, that's unfortunate.

ROWAN: The film bitch. Yeah, didn't you reboot to NFT1 to see the screen. But Jazza was crying so hard. Cheering specifically the scene where Simon comes out to his mum. Those who have seen the movie will know after that scene, there's some light hearted scenes, there's the things picked back up like it moves on. That's not the end of the movie. And Jazza was crying so hard and could not stop crying to the point where he had to take his jacket that he had taken off because it was too hot in the summer and hide his head under it because he was so loud. No one could hear what was going on in this movie because Jazza was still crying. And I felt like the most heartless bitch in the world sitting sitting beside you and like sort of like imaginary-

JAZZA: There, there.

ROWAN: There, there, Jazza, my friend as you were probably having a crisis in the seat beside me in the cinema. It was amazing. Don't let don't let Jazza for you and he does a really casual like, you know, I cried a few times had a little cry today about it.

JAZZA: I know, I know. I had a breakdown. Yeah.

ROWAN: It was it was week. It was a whole week.

JAZZA: Yeah, pulled out like my, my, my heart and soul. The same thing happened rewatching it so this is now what we're watching for the this podcast is the third time that I've watched it. And I had the same reaction to the same scene. It's like not quite as dramatic.

ROWAN: So predictable.

JAZZA: Yeah. And I think that is going to affect the way that I talk about this movie because I have a bit more of a retrospective. We will we'll see as we come into talking about the plot more in-depth. But for me, we joked about this being the first ever gay movie. And I'm like, go and look at our back catalog of episodes. There were several other queer movies about teens with quick protagonists and with queer actors in it, and queer filmmakers making them that came far before 2018 When this movie actually came out. But this was the first time I saw something that really resonated with me, and how old I was like in my late 20s, at the time, and that was such a kind of like that, that does make it a really, really important movie for me, albeit one with many criticisms and I'm not least that fucking Ferris wheel.

ROWAN: So another bit of context we wanted to talk about before we dive into like, going through the exact plot of the movie is something Jazza you've been looking into, which is the controversy, the conversation, the invasiveness, I don't know what to call it around the sexuality of the author of the novel, right?

JAZZA: Yeah. So Rebecca Albertalli is the writer of not only Love Simon, but also what she refers to as the Simon-verse

ROWAN: The Simon, also, I love what you've called Rebecca Albertalli. When her I'm pretty sure, she just goes by Becky Albertalli. But it makes it sound like like, Okay-

JAZZA: I've never met her, I feel like I have to use her full name.

ROWAN: We don't be you don't want to, I don't want to presume I can use her nickname, which is-

JAZZA: No, I would never.

ROWAN: -know the name Rowan, that's too presumptuous.

JAZZA: I'll just call her Albertalli. Like I'm referencing her in a in an academic article. So it has written a number of novels for YA novels with queer protagonists, queer themes, but was perceived by many people for a long time to be cis het, cisgender heterosexual, because she is in a heterosexual marriage and had never really spoken explicitly about her sexuality, and had actually kind of like whenever people heard invasively asked her about her, like, why is why is this het woman writing about like a gay boy, like in Simon vs. the Homo Sapiens Agenda, this kind of like coincided with a movement called Own Voices in from what I can, Rowan, you may understand more context about this, because you were in this world when this was happening. But it was a term coined, by a YA author named Cohen Davis, which was a way of kind of categorizing online stories that were told by the people who were from the communities and the identities that were portrayed in the literature that they were creating, which sounds like a great idea, right? The problem is, this then ended up gatekeeping happened and gatekeeping of queerness, not only by the companies who were then going around trying to tick the box of something that would fit under an own voices title, but also by people online, who then would go around questioning whether or not people had the right to be able to talk about particular communities based on their backgrounds. This got so heated, that my close friend, Rebecca Albertalli, ended up posting a quite a really moving very emotional, medium post coming out as bi and made it very, very clear. Like I'll quote her for a sec, let me be perfectly clear, this is not how I wanted to come out. This does not feel good or empowering, or even particularly safe. Honestly, I'm doing this because I've been scrutinized, sub-tweeted, mocked or lectured and invalidated just about every single day for years, and I'm exhausted. And obviously, this is a terrible experience for her to have had to have gotten through. But I think this started in like the YA space. But I think and I, I'll be honest, I don't know where I stand on kind of like all of this stuff yet. Maybe it's nuanced.

ROWAN: What? Nuanced, Jazza? Surely not on, on this internet.

JAZZA: But some of this stuff really reminds me of the recent of some of the recent things that have happened around the cast of Heartstopper, who are a very young cast. I'm thinking specifically of Kit Connor, who in an interview, was like quite bullish about not defining his sexuality, and how there was so much speculation online about his sexuality and the way that the rest of the cast defined themselves and kind of like this commercialization of static identity that you end up seeing in commercial spaces, because it allows you and I think some of this is it allows you to tag something as something and therefore profit from it, especially in certain spaces that are seen as more like socially liberal, like, for example, like why no foods that are perhaps more socially liberal than other parts of the media? Perhaps? Definitely more?

ROWAN: Yeah, I think that there was definitely a so own voices. I think, as with any things started with the best of intentions.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And its intended usage.

JAZZA: It sounds like on its surface, a really good idea.

ROWAN: The issue was, it was not meant to be a if you don't fit into Own Voices, you shouldn't be writing. It was more for the fact that there had been like a spate of novels about like black protagonists, written by white authors, and that the opportunities were not being given to black authors to tell their own stories. And so the idea was less like, hey, you can only write an own voices novel, which obviously, it gets very tricky, because it's like, well, if I want to write an ensemble, do they all have to be exactly the same as me? Or do I have to basically just populate a novel or a script, or a YA book or whatever it is with people who are like, cis white, heterosexual men, because I can kind of write them because they're the Everyman. And then I get to do my own voices on particular, like it just it falls apart very quickly when you actually think about it. But all of this kind of good intentions ended up with exactly what you said, people who took it to the extreme to mean like, hey, if you aren't own voices, why are you even talking about this? And I think there's definitely an argument to be said about the idea of like, you know, the LGB and T. And all the other letters experiences are not necessarily going to be the same. So the fact that Becky Albertalli is a bisexual woman doesn't necessarily make Love, Simon Own Voices, because it's about a gay boy.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: But I think that the assumption that was made about her that was made very strongly by a lot of people.

JAZZA: And that was weaponized against her because-

ROWAN: Exactly, yeah.

JAZZA: -then subsequently, the film.

ROWAN: Completely. And she wrote, Leah on the Offbeat is about Leah, who's in these books, who is bisexual. And so that very much was an Own Voices book. But it was not something that she was marketing in that way, it wasn't a thing that she had decided wanted to be part of it. And I definitely agree with the stuff around the actors in Heartstopper, I saw so many interviews, both in person and on the internet with, at the very least, interviewers, fishing for a coming out story by saying things like, okay, and exactly how did you resonate with that character? Like, what about their experiences spoke to things that you have gone through, and I was so uncomfortable, because this shouldn't be something that you're you're kind of pressuring anyone to do, but especially not these like actual children.

JAZZA: Especially not teenagers, yeah, literally.

ROWAN: These little babies. But yeah, so I think I think it's one of those things, it's really frustrating, because you want to find that balance between not having inauthentic representation, but also not narrowing down to that extreme. I think basically, what the focus should be, from my point of view at the moment, although obviously, you know, we'd love to hear other opinions. So do let us know, if you've got thoughts on this. I think it's a really interesting topic, I think the emphasis should be on if you are going to write a story that is diverse in whatever way that is, and that might be outside of your direct experiences. How do you get that right? What are the things that we should have in place within the writing culture within the industry that ensures that nothing has been published, which is going to be damaging towards the community, and whether that looks like sensitivity readers being paid properly, being respected properly, whether that is about encouraging collaborative writing projects, whether that is about like anything that might be useful, I think that that's what would be a more useful focus, rather than kind of narrowing it down so much necessarily.

JAZZA: When I was doing research for this, there was the an article and opinion piece on Quill and Quire who's an author, I think she was really good at articulating that this is essentially something like Own Voices was a really convenient way for a publisher to tick the box and say, we are doing the right thing by this. But actually, like you said, the way that you make sure that representation is good is by making sure that your authors put in the work. But there is nothing really, there's not like a binary way of being able to make sure that happens other than making sure that somebody does the work and that they are considered and that they aren't kind of like offensive in the portrayal of whatever community that they're representing, that they aren't necessarily from, and it makes it more difficult. But this stuff is difficult. And something like a convenient hashtag, albeit with I feel like when you read it on the surface, it makes total sense, right? But then how it's ended up manifesting and ended up closing doors to people who do end up actually being queer and clearly really hurting people like Albertalli, I think the commercialization of it there and the hashtagification of it online as well are really what caused the damage. Anyway, this movie is great, isn't it? Shall we?

[theme]

JAZZA: So Love Simon we're splitting into three acts. The first act I have affectionately called, He does theater and drinks iced coffee. All the signs were there.

ROWAN: That makes sense. You know truly, how did no one see it before?

JAZZA: I know exactly.

ROWAN: I'm gonna call act one XOXO Gossip Girl. Just because we love we love we love letters, you know, love letters, diary entries, emails, the gays do love a little bit of a paper trail. I'm sure it will not come back to bite them.

JAZZA: Sarah Jessica Parker did wonders for representation of overly bookish people writing too openly into their computers. And the queers love Sex and the City. Simon himself speaking over the top of the movie, what's that called? The voiceover starts with I'm just like you. And I want to make it very clear, Simon. No, you are not. Simon comes from like what looks like an upper middle class. Really lovely, welcoming, friendly family has really close friends and lovely people around him a system that he actually likes.

ROWAN: Can afford Starbucks every morning.

JAZZA: Every morning, that is not an efficient use of your of your pocket change my dear children, also all the way through this movie, I just get real anxiety watching teenagers drive, I just don't think it should be allowed, actually, especially in the US where the driving age is younger, really. I find it very jarring. But we're introduced to Simon, his mother and father, his mother played by Jennifer Garner. But we are very quickly told that Simon has a secret.

ROWAN: A big old secret.

JAZZA: And that secret is he really likes the boots of the guy who's doing yard work opposite his house.

ROWAN: He just wants to get into fashion, dad. It's not. It's not my dream. It's your dream, dad, I want to go to fashion school. Also, he's a homosexual. That's all like that's like, oh, just that's gonna have a little bit to do with the plot. But obviously, you know, hasn't told anyone.

JAZZA: There are three main friends who were part of this movie, his friend, Nick, and Leah, who was spoken about earlier. And then the newcomer, the cool girl on the block, Abby, all of whom are like very close, they go to school together and all of that kind of stuff. This school they go to really needs to shut down a website that students have started curating. Which is basically a gossip website for the school where people can post anonymously remember posting anonymously on the internet,

ROWAN: Very curious cat, very anonymous Tumblr, very how strange. Yeah, it's basically just like, who's in charge of the pastoral care hit, but I fit this is also I kind of feel like, there's the thing that happens in schools now where they're like, doesn't happen on our property. And I want to tell you, that's the internet that's in a different world.

JAZZA: Like really wish it were better than that. But it's clearly not. But yeah, the teachers are kind of like, the teachers are where all the comedy is, I feel.

ROWAN: And they got added. So they didn't kind of mention this before. But there was the main guide teacher in it. It's not part of the book. And they've kind of definitely messed around a bit with the added in the comedy for the teachers in the movie.

JAZZA: Yeah. And well, Miss Albright, who's the theater teacher is there. And I can't remember the name of the actor who plays the vice principal, but he's in like, Veep, and stuff like that. It's very funny. Usually, at one point, he stopped Simon and goes, you got to tell me what brand those sneakers are. And they have a massive tick on the side of them. It's clearly not Nike, like, for goodness sake, I don't know if that was the joke or not. But I was just like, come on granddads deal with it.

ROWAN: You're just you're trying to claw back your youth.

[grandad exclamations]

JAZZA: These Nicknock knickknock, my knees. So on this on this website that is clearly very incredibly problematic at this school. A kid anonymously comes out as gay and says, I feel like I'm on a Ferris Wheel. I can't remember what the metaphor is. But it's like sometimes I'm up sometimes I'm down. Wow, you that some poetic devices right there.

ROWAN: But to be honest, very good teen representation because teenagers do that. That definitely seems that something a teenager would write which we love to see realistic teen dialogue, just like they're not protagonists in the John Green novel, I think is what I'm trying to say.

JAZZA: Sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. They don't have that inner dialogue. So the person who has come out on this website is called Blue.

ROWAN: Not their real name.

JAZZA: Not their real name. Do you know why they're called Blue?

ROWAN: I'm sure you're about to tell me so, no, Jazza! Why are they called Blue?

JAZZA: I only figured this. So much for pretending to be interested. I only clocked it today when I was rewatching and it's by a throwaway joke that somebody says, and it's a racist joke where what do you call somebody who's black and Jewish blueish. And because Bram is a black Jewish guy, he's blue.

ROWAN: Wow, if only Simon had more-

JAZZA: Had put two and two together.

ROWAN: -paid more attention, put two and two together.

JAZZA: So Simon sees this post from Blue, decides to email the person because that's a normal thing to put your email address alongside an anonymous posting that you have, and calls himself Jacques and the two of them start.

ROWAN: Can I just say? The fact that it's not even just Jack. Like it's Jacques. It's like a specifically written and pronounced the French way.

JAZZA: Jacques.

ROWAN: Incredible. He'll never know.

JAZZA: Jacques, by the way, it's how you say Simon says so very smart.

ROWAN: That Simon.

JAZZA: Simon.

ROWAN: I have a feeling that might have been the justification of the boycott, as you remember. But yeah, and so interestingly, that you said that so in the book, I seem to remember that instead of him having his email in the post, he does it anonymously. And then Simon messages and is like, hey, I really resonated with what you said. Here is an email you can email if you want to, and waits for Blue to reach out to him with like, this fake email that he set up.

JAZZA: So the to start creating and weaving intimate parasocial relationships with one another. And if I mean, this resonated hugely with my time on an anonymous messaging boards, where I'm like, I think I'm falling in love with these lines of text. At one point, Blue messages Simon and says, is it weird that I'm imagining kissing you? Yes.

ROWAN: You don't know anything about like, this could be a massive catfish. What a wild ending that would have been to this movie very different tone.

JAZZA: I'd have kind of I just kind of loved it, it would have had a very different message. Yeah. But I would have appreciated the risk that would have been taken there.

ROWAN: Well, already there. To be honest, this is already a risk because they get discovered.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: By another student by their student, Martin.

JAZZA: Who is the worst he does magic.

ROWAN: Oh, god.

JAZZA: Negatively.

ROWAN: Never, never trust anyone who does magic. That's my life motto.

JAZZA: Sorry, Steven

ROWAN: As I always say, if there's if anyone's listened to this podcast before every episode, I always say, don't trust them.

JAZZA: Never trust a magician.

ROWAN: They always cut it, but I do say it during the recording. So yeah, Martin is also very, very into Abby.

JAZZA: The newcomer, the new friend.

ROWAN: Yes, the new friend. And so we get to our inciting incident sort of end of Act One, oh, my goodness, the big reveal has happened. Simon's life will never be the same. Which is basically that Martin is like, hey, what if I just outed you? Wouldn't that be fun? And Simon's like, no. And Martin is like, well, in that case, maybe you could help me win the heart of Abby. And we can both benefit and so Simon, you know being blackmailed, and all kind of has to agree. Even as he's trying to figure out you know, who is Blue? What's going on with this guy actually, like maybe I want to know him in real life also, I'm getting blackmailed. It feels like there's a lot going on babe like pick a struggle. Let's just, one thing at a time you those are going to school you're trying to keep the grades up. Someone's look out for this boy, you know what I mean? He's going for a lot.

JAZZA: I still find it so bone chilling whenever I like watch this. Again, like Martin thinks that that's a good idea. And you kind of end up like later on in the movie when everything hits the fan. And Martin ended up apologizing to Simon and saying, I didn't realize that people still would still said homophobic stuff would still kind of like care about the fact that you are gay. Martin is clearly incredibly naive here, but still clearly does not understand the threat that he has made and the existential dread that is now hanging over Simon as a character. It's a pretty damn terrible if you're listening kids don't do that.

ROWAN: Yeah, and the worst, the worst thing about it is, here's a gay brother, like, this is even more unhinged is like he does know. But I guess it's like, like, that's so interesting to me. And I feel like there's not a lot of time that's dwelled on it in the movie, the like, what the hell's going on with Martin where it's like, yeah, this is essentially just someone who is so oblivious to their own privilege into their own life that like even their like, their brother couldn't clearly be going through some stuff. And they're just like, so oblivious or they would blackmail someone about the secret that their brother had? Yeah, Martin. Zero out of 10 would not recommend it.

JAZZA: Yeah, absolutely wild, and also I don't like that he kind of get some redemption, the end of the movie-

ROWAN: Yeah. Not a fan.

JAZZA: -as well. For the last ticket on the Ferris wheel.

ROWAN: Not a fan.

JAZZA: Of fucking Ferris wheel.

ROWAN: The Ferris wheel. I will say before we move on to Act Two, which I know you're dying to, because everyone has to take a shot when we say what the name is this also in the first act, we are also introduced to the fact that there is a gay character at this school.

JAZZA: Oh, yes.

ROWAN: Ethan. And here is my-

JAZZA: No, get on that soapbox.

ROWAN: Here is my, here is my like, other big fault with this movie. And it is that it never really make Simon accountable for all of this nonsense that happens around Ethan. So like he, Ethan gets like, relentlessly bullied. And so that is understandable that someone who is deeply in the closet like Simon would be quite scared of that. Like, maybe that's something that he's seen and he's scared of it happening to him. Like there's all of this stuff going on emotions going on. But he is like actively acting annoyed about Ethan acting like Ethan brings it on himself not doing anything to defend Ethan, like all of this kind of stuff. It goes beyond just ignoring it. And it goes into someone who's like actively complaining about this person living their life essentially.

JAZZA: Implicitly. Yeah.

ROWAN: And there's also just some moments that happened where like, Simon has this whole dream sequence where he pretends that he's like, going, he's excited to go to college because he will be able to be himself there, he thinks. And it turns into like, a sort of fantasy dance number. And then he sort of like record, scratch his pauses and is like, I'm not that gay. And I'm like, we could read this with a generous reading and be like, okay, fine. And that's a joke. Haha. But I think the fact that his character like actively seems to be quite dismissive isn't even the word but sort of like unsupportive of someone like Ethan. He kind of really reads as the kind of guy who would be like, Isn't I'm not one of those gay people.

JAZZA: Yeah. 100%. So I see your problematic statement. I see it, I hear it. I appreciate it.

ROWAN: Thank you. But moving on.

JAZZA: But I think the homophobia is fine. But I was Simon, like, I wasn't always the fabulous queer nail-painted individual that you see sometimes doing drag individual that you see before you today.

ROWAN: I don't see. I would say I don't mind that being because I think it's very realistic and it's fine.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ROWAN: She came when like, then we got through the entire rest of the movie, and it never got addressed.

JAZZA: I think it kind of does. I like the movie didn't decide that this was going to be the arc for Simon, I think it would have been an interesting arc for Simon to take. I think it tries to address that, when they're called in the principal's office.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And then they have that conversation amongst one another. And the other gay guy says, "You could have just told me" and then read him a little bit. And that is actually kind of like a really sweet moment. I think that's when it kind of tries to humanize.

ROWAN: And it just doesn't go far. Let's go on to Act Two.

ROWAN: Because that comes later and we'll like we'll dig into that when we get to it.

JAZZA: Yeah.

[theme]

ROWAN: If you're currently listening to this podcast and thinking, Wow, I love it. I've subscribed. I've downloaded some episodes, but at some point, I'm gonna binge all of these episodes. And I'll be wanting more. Is there a podcast, Rowan Jazza, that you can recommend that if we like your one we might enjoy as well? Well, of course there is we're here for you. We are part of the Multitude Collective, which is an incredible collective of podcasts that are about a bunch of different stuff, essentially just people who are massive fans and super nerds and really excited about particular topics, talking about them with humor with history. So the one that we wanted to recommend specifically to you today is Spirits. So this is a podcast, which is actually co-hosted by our amazing editor Julia, and it is the first podcast that I listened to from the Multitude Collective. It is all about folklore, mythology, the occult, through the lens of like queerness feminism. It's amazing. It is a perfect mix of like actual facts and stories in history as well as comedy a little bit of fun that so every week, the wonderful Julia, a big mythology buff and her childhood best friend Amanda get together to learn about a different story from mythology over drinks, you Spirits, you see, you see, you see what they did there? We love a good pun in the name of a podcast. So they talk about everything from like, pop culture mythology, you know, the origins of various pop culture franchises like Lord of the Rings, or Wonder Woman, as well as urban legends. I really enjoy their episodes where they take like listener urban legends, from their cultures, from their small towns, all of the weird stories and folklore that people had growing up, and they tell those stories. I love those episodes. They are so cool, sometimes very creepy, and they have nearly 300 episodes released over the last six years. So if you're looking for something to binge, it's the perfect one for you. So if you like hearing, you know creepy stories that will give you the shivers or like diving into an analysis of mental health within folklore then there's going to be something that you will want to listen to you within Spirits, so you can dive in at spiritspodcast.com, or by just searching Spirits wherever you download your podcasts. Also, just a hunch, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably someone who spends quite a lot of time on the internet. And if you're someone who's currently listening to this podcast at like two times speed, right? If you're listening to it sped up, maybe you are also riddled with ADHD like myself. If you are, I also imagine, I'm just, you know, I'm linking to cycle here, across the radio waves, you have 1000 tabs open on your computer right now. And at least 100 on your phone. Every every time you have a new thought, you open a tab, you need to Google something, you need to research something you need to remember to do a task later. Wouldn't it be great? If you could keep doing that? You don't have to change for anyone, I would never make you change. But when you did open a new tab, you raise money for charity. It's it's I know, sounds wild. But it's true. We have an amazing sponsor this episode, we've had them sponsor the show for a while now, they're still incredible. It is Tab For a Cause. Essentially, it's a browser extension that lets you do exactly that you raise money for charity, while just going about your thing online because when you open the new tab, you see two things a beautiful photo and a very small ad. And part of that ad money goes towards a charity of your choice. It could quite literally not be simpler. So you can join Team Queer Movie by signing up at tabforacause.org/queermovie.

[theme]

ROWAN: Basically, yeah, he's getting blackmailed. And we get zip into Act Two, The Party and It's Aftermath for obvious reasons.

JAZZA: And of course, because this is an American show about a year at school, and so the party is obviously the Halloween Party.

ROWAN: Of course.

JAZZA: Because every school has that. So one of the I mean, this is a spoiler full podcast, blue throws a Halloween Party. And Simon is starting to kind of like, oh my god, I kind of like you. I will say, all the way through this movie, Simon and Simon and Bram, Blue, have no chemistry-

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: -whatsoever, which I'm really annoyed about because they're both objectively hot. Keiynan Lonsdale, I love a lot have followed their music career and everything I have much but it just doesn't, I didn't know that there's no there's really no chemistry there and I find that really kind of like lackluster it's quite annoying.

ROWAN: Casting directors. Here's an advice from us do a chemistry read between your leads. I will also point out that when the Halloween party that wasn't like the anonymous person Blue did. The person who turns out to be Bram did it and Simon wasn't like well this is easy Blue throwing a Halloween Party let's figure out whose house this is. But basically, Simon is trying to figure out who Blue is and Bram actually again in the novel he literally never suspects the person that actually is that is Blue. But in the movie he's like, yeah, maybe and then walks in on Bram making out with a girl and apparently is like, oh, that's not possible, bye and so that's like he's like oh, my big Blue's Clues notebook with my big oversized pencil.

JAZZA: Craft blues.

ROWAN: That sounds and oh, thank you. I'm glad you saw what I did there.

JAZZA: It's really great. It was at this point that it starts to get complicated with the friends. So Nick, who is in the core group of friends with Simon says that he has feelings for Abby, who is the new girl.

ROWAN: The one that Martin wants.

JAZZA: The one that Martin who is blackmailing Simon, I'm already confused. Once Simon then tries to derail this potential relationship between Nick and Abby by saying, oh, no, Abby has a boyfriend in college. And so this is kind of like the start of Simon-

ROWAN: Meddling.

JAZZA: -manipulating. Yeah.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Meddling, manipulating his friends, in order for him to be outed to the rest of the school before he wants to. We then also hear Leah who takes him home after getting a little bit too inebriated. Don't drink underage kids, it's not a good idea.

ROWAN: Because you might confess your love to someone.

JAZZA: And Leah does basically confess her love for Simon but Simon thinks that his she's confessing her love for Nick.

ROWAN: Yeah, exactly. And so obviously Simon at that point is like, well, this is this is perfect, because all I need to do is get Leah or do you like Simon I just have to get Simon to spend some time with Leah and get he actually totally loves her wishful thinking, child. Because then Abby will be free to be obsessed with Martin, they'll be great. And so he orchestrates a very awkward like, wow, Abby and Martin. What if we all met up and, you know, practice lines for the musical? Which to be fair, I think if you're getting you're trying to get people together. That is a way that kind of preserves the autonomy, at least of the person involved to secretly being set up, because you also did have to run lines. He's like, Well, maybe if I just put them near each other they'll-

JAZZA: Yeah, it was really good.

ROWAN: We'll see what happens.

JAZZA: I think, yeah, it's pretty good. We get introduced to this minor character that has like four lines, but Simon thinks that he may be Blue. This guy who works at the diner called Lyle, bless Lyle. I think that Simon and Lyle have way more chemistry than Simon and Bram, I'm just putting that out there. And then actually, that night Simon comes out to Abby, and this is my first cry of the movie.

ROWAN: Excellent. Tick number one first cry, put on the bingo card.

JAZZA: Really beautiful. We then have kind of like, general, high school nonsense. And there is of course, our high school football game.

ROWAN: In case you forgot. This is in America.

JAZZA: This is in America. Sorry, an American football game, a gridiron football game. Simon crosses paths with Lyle, the guy who he saw at the Waffle House, and tries to kind of like figure out if he's Blue. But Lyle is also interested in Abby basically everybody is interested in Abby, nobody's interested in Simon.

ROWAN: She's so mysterious. She's such a newcomer.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Also, I love that Simon does, he's having these close shaves with these guys who potentially he would just he was just trying to figure out if he's going to be like, "Hi, I'm gay, are you Blue?" And they'd be like, "No, I love Abby." So I really enjoy that he's, he's thwarted at having to out himself for every turn by these people being obsessed with his friend instead.

JAZZA: I would really want to go around and just go like Blue? Let's see who turned around.

ROWAN: Just yell it. Just yell Blue.

JAZZA: Blue!

ROWAN: Blue? Hello, Blue?

JAZZA: Like I'm looking for a dog in the park. So at this game, Martin, who's the little shit who's blackmailing Simon ends up interrupting the national anthem, which I understand is a big deal in the United States.

ROWAN: He just hates America so much.

JAZZA: Yeah, right? And publicly declares his feelings for Abby, saying will you go out with me and then releases for doves into the- I-

ROWAN: Actually-

JAZZA: No, I do, I do kind of love the scene for the level of cringe.

ROWAN: What a promposal, am I right, Americans? Geez.

JAZZA: Abby then deals with it like an absolute champ quietly walks down the stalls and goes up to him and goes, I don't think of you like that. I think of you as a, like, I think reacts really really, really well. Very maturely. But then Martin is obviously a little bit pissed off is pissed off that Simon hasn't made Abby fall in love with him.

ROWAN: I think- I think that like specifically so although okay, because that is true that Simon cannot make him do that. But also it was because Simon basically was like, go big or go home, you little bitch. Come on, Martin. Pull your dick out. Like let's go. Let's go. And so Martin's like, I will pull my dick out and leave for doves and then-

JAZZA: And then the doves flew away with his dick.

ROWAN: Simon's inability to have somehow predicted that Martin would go absolutely unhinged at the slightest provocation is clearly Simon's fault. This boy is a blackmailer, you know what I mean?

JAZZA: Then on Christmas Eve, which is extra douchey. Martin in his humiliation decides to post on that godforsaken website that really needs to be shut down. And outs Simon by sharing all of the screenshots of the conversations that he's had with Blue, and I cry again,

ROWAN: It's wild to me because that's like, as established we have Halloween and then we had the football game.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Which, I'm assuming the football game wasn't on Christmas Eve Eve. So this boy is like let it fester for a little bit before he's like he's not doing in the heat of the moment. Like he's given it a better thought but yeah, he basically in the book Martin posts, he doesn't post the screenshots he posts he does post outing Simon but he basically like writes his own thing about like who he wants. Oh, he specifically says that about how much time I want to give a Blue-job. Probably play on words but obviously it like-

JAZZA: Same level as your Blues Clues.

ROWAN: -connected to Blue in some way. So that Blue to understand that like Simon someone knows about him and Simon. But yeah, so basically we have I'm assuming you also came out in the next scene where Simon comes out to his parents very awkwardly on Christmas morning.

JAZZA: Yeah, over on Christmas morning, which I think is a great day to have your coming out anniversary. He also so his sister walks in because she's obviously on the school website as well. And tries to like bless her she's like 8 and tries to kind of like maybe not a like, "Well, I'm on-

ROWAN: on social media. That's the get her off there.

JAZZA: 100% She tries to kind of like console Simon. Simon does not deal with it very well. I cry again. This cry number two.

ROWAN: Wow.

JAZZA: And then he comes out to parents a little bit later on Christmas Day.

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Cry number Three. Yeah.

ROWAN: Got it. tic tic tac

JAZZA: Exactly.

[theme]

ROWAN: And essentially, here we enter act number three, which I think we both agree is titled-

JAZZA: Simon is a terrible person.

ROWAN: Yes. Although the first thing that happens in Act number, Act numero three-oh, is-

JAZZA: Painful.

ROWAN: -basically, Simon's friends confront him and immediately-

JAZZA: Oh, he goes to pick, he doesn't talk to them all Christmas, and then goes to pick up, pick them up, as if normal.

ROWAN: Just like, hey, sorry, I didn't want to give you a lift to school. Let's go to [45:40]. And so basically, they confront him. Nick and Abby, at this point, have figured out that they are actually like each other, and a couple, and that Simon lied to Nick about Abby having a boyfriend, and was trying to set Nick up with Leah, which she was confused about. And so they've now kind of gotten together, but also realize that Simon had been lying to them and that he also hadn't messaged them after he had been traumatically outed. And then, like, the whole thing just starts to fall apart. But it also is really weird because it like, this whole scene is set up like, wow, Simon is a horrible person for being blackmailed. What a douchebag.

JAZZA: Yeah, not very good friends is kind of like, like myopic friends, like, obviously, they have a right to be pissed off. He has kind of like, manipulated them in a pretty douchey way. But there's a reason behind it. Like there should be empathy and understanding behind it and these friends in the movie don't seem to have that.

ROWAN: No, and they're very literally Nick's like, what does that have to do with us? When Simon's like, I was blackmailed. And he's like, "And? Why should I care, Simon? Give me one reason." And so this is also where Leah confesses that she's it was Simon that she was in love with the whole time because he's like, I don't know, I just thought like, if I got you to spend some time together, you like him. And I think you're great. So he should like you. And like, you know, he didn't do something the awful stuff that could have happened if this was a different kind of movie. If he was someone was being blackmailed into making you're making one of his friends like someone else. There was no, oh, we should just play a drinking game and get really drunk. Like, there's no like, oh, let's do Seven Minutes in Heaven with this person. Like there was nothing like that. It literally was like, Let's go on a three-way date to a waffle house and run lines. And so this whole, the bit of the storyline, essentially gets concluded with Simon having to apologize to his friends and his friends just not having to apologize to him, and being like, so I'm so sorry, guys, please forgive me. I really want to figure out who Blue is. So we can meet up at the school carnival, and I can out him and they're like, we forgive you, Simon because you were awful. So we'll help you with this plan, which seems like it has no flaws.

JAZZA: It's around this time, just before they end up going to the carnival. It's the first day back at school and a couple of students end up dressing up as Simon and Ethan. Although I will say the guy who dresses up as the other student who dresses up as Simon just wears a hoodie and you can't really tell.

ROWAN: That's a pretty good Simon cosplay to be honest.

JAZZA: Yeah, 100, my Halloween costume maybe. And they get shouted out by the theater teacher, which I really, really enjoy. And then we have that weird scene with Ethan and Simon outside the principal's office. Did you want to like add anything to what we were saying earlier?

ROWAN: It's frustrating because what Simon is apologizing for is not really what he should be apologizing for. So he says he kind of goes I'm sorry, it wasn't it wasn't as bad as this when it was just you who are out. And like, which is so out of touch. And like Ethan's just like, What are you talking about? You idiot. Like that's not it at all, which will he should be apologizing for is like all of the stuff that we said earlier about the ways in which he's projected his own discomfort and-

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Internalized homophobia

ROWAN: -to someone else like all of these kinds of things. And that to me would have made this a way more interesting movie, it would have been doing something more than we'd notice. And not more than but did something different, something a little bit more complex than the sort of coming out narratives that we'd seen before. And so that to me felt like a missed opportunity.

JAZZA: Well, Ethan is in, in this movie. And I think in the books, if I remember the book correctly, Ethan is just kind of like a bit of a doesn't have a huge amount of character development as a character. And so it would have been, it would have just been a different story-

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: -if they had ended up doing that. I do think it would have been warranted. And I think it would have been a nice arc to see in a gay character, especially a gay teen character being written about in the mid 2010s. I think that that's where, I mean, I've not been to school for a while, but I think that's like that's where kind of like kids are more likely to be these days anyway, maybe that's why maybe I'm showing my biases here. But it felt like my experience in the early 2000s In the early and mid 2000s kind of like going through that like a lot of that resonated with me the way that I saw the people who were in my year and came out earlier were more effeminate I blamed and I took great pride in being-

ROWAN: Different.

JAZZA: -not that kind of gay. I was very much a pick-me girl.

ROWAN: Held the tables of tabled.

JAZZA: How the tables have tabled. There's also the the-

ROWAN: The mum scene.

JAZZA: Yeah, where he comes out, I cry again.

ROWAN: Yeah, that was the scene that really got you the most last time, I'm pretty sure.

JAZZA: Oh, my god. Absolutely, absolutely destroyed me.

ROWAN: But I think that is also kind of like the iconic scene everyone talks about that also wasn't in the book that was very, kind of completely fabricated for the, for the movie. And I think that it was like for me that scene was like, very specifically perfectly written as the like, and now we will do the coming out scene.

JAZZA: Here's the coming scene.

ROWAN: Here's the coming-out scene. And I do think that there is like, you know, I like to trash this movie. But I understand that there are people who obviously need to see that scene and found a lot of comfort in it and a lot of emotion and all that kind of stuff.

JAZZA: Me.

ROWAN: It's just very funny because his dad is like his mom is doing the classic like, incredible parent-

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Putting her entire 13 going on 30 year into that performance. And then the dad's like, You're right son.

JAZZA: And dad starts crying. The dad starts crying and then says, I think we should sign up to Grindr together.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Because I don't think you know what Grindr is.

ROWAN: I don't think that should work.

JAZZA: Which was, I think is the best line in the whole film.

ROWAN: So supportive dad. Yeah, so we essentially, we have this big arc of like, okay, so I got outed, everything was shit. My friends don't want to hang out with me. I'm being publicly humiliated. My parents are weeping over me constantly. And then I'm like, Well, I guess how I should fix this is just apologizing to my friends for being blackmailed.

JAZZA: He apologizes to them. He writes on the website saying, yeah, I'm gay. It's correct. And- Simon in the movie then go on to say, hey, coming out is just like being scared if someone won't like you. And I'm like, I mean, and-

ROWAN: That.

JAZZA: And some more.

ROWAN: That and some other stuff.

JAZZA: And you know, like systemic repression over centuries?

ROWAN: No, no!

JAZZA: Fear to your like physical and mental wellbeing?

ROWAN: That's a bit blackmail amongst friends.

JAZZA: Yeah. it's a weird line. That it I feel like the movie tries to make this experience a universal one, something that everybody can connect with. And you can connect with somebody going through the trauma of coming out and the trauma of kind of like being closeted. But you don't need to do by saying-

ROWAN: You don't have to literally experience.

JAZZA: -the first line, the opening line of the movie. Where it says-

JAZZA AND ROWAN: I'm just like you.

JAZZA: Simon isn't just like you. Simon is a kid who has if you are cis-het person, you do not understand what that is like. And that I think is the that's the biggest problem I have with the movie plus the public outing plus the blackmail plus all of that kind of stuff

ROWAN: It's fine that when the tears happen, they just wipe away Jazza's brain cells that were working on critiquing the movie. He's like, oh, we've got washed away, all of a sudden, and he gets annoyed. He's like, oh, wait, they got washed away again. But yeah, essentially, what happens is what I said at the beginning, in terms of this Ferris wheel, Simon does this kind of like, weird ultimatum post thing where he's like, hey, if you actually like me and want to, like, you know, show yourself, you have your chance. It's in this very public place on this Ferris wheel where you'll have to sit beside me and you won't be able to escape for at least one rotation of this ride. And so, because he posted it publicly, just a massive crowd of teenagers arrived to be like, go Simon, ironically enough, he just keeps going around on this Ferris wheel who runs out of tickets and who should come and buy him one more ride? It's Martin. And for a minute, I'm sure a lot of us were like, oh, no, it's not Martin. Martin no.

JAZZA: He says it. He says it's me. And he was like, I'm sorry. This is just so terrible. And everybody in the crowd is saying, This is so awkward. This is the worst thing I've ever seen. Yeah.

ROWAN: But then just before, it all goes to shit Simon's on his own again.

JAZZA: Before we bring in Bram, I think this is meant to be a redemption for Martin.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: And I don't think that there should be any fucking redemption for that little shitbag.

ROWAN: What do you mean a $1 ticket as buys you redemption.

JAZZA: I like saying so. He is not like, Simon, the character actually said it really, really well in the movie where it's like, "You took away coming out for me, that should be something that I should be able to do." And what Martin did is pure evil and should know better, like we said, because he has a gay brother. I like I kind of hate that the movie tries to give him some kind of redemption, but he buys the ticket four dollars by the way, four dollars.

ROWAN: He wanders off and is immediately hit by a roller coaster carriage [55:00] it's just we don't see it. It's a deleted scene. Don't worry about it. We've [55:04]

JAZZA: Killed off Bram.

ROWAN: We've killed of Bram and Simon at this point. So yeah, Bram basically reveals himself as Blue. And then apparently, like the kiss with the girl was a mistake. It was like, oh, you came at literally-

ROWAN: -at that wrong moment, like, oh, how, what a funny miscommunication. And then they ride the ferris wheel and they kiss and that the crowd of teenagers claps for them. And then basically, it's the classic epilogue thing like Simon's like, my life just is normal now, except I'm in a relationship with Bram. And we're all picking up our friends at school but my boyfriend's here, too. And then they probably go and get with Starbucks, again. The end.

JAZZA: Tell me about it.

ROWAN: The end, in the book, there's no crowd, and there's no public ultimatum. So it's different.

ROWAN: It's very different.

JAZZA: Just to clarify for everybody, we have a little bit of time to do it before we go into ratings and stuff. Are you aware of the cultural phenomenon that is Love, Victor?

ROWAN: So I am aware of Love, Victor, but I haven't watched it yet. Because I think basically, I wanted to do the thing where I wait until the show is finished to find out. Is this worth watching? Does it actually have an ending? Or was it just cancelled with a big cliffhanger? Is it the kind of show that people will say, watch season one, don't bother afterwards. It didn't go that well, because it seems like the kind of show where I need to figure out what's going on with it before I commit.

JAZZA: I can tell you now, because I spent all afternoon

ROWAN: Oh my god did you cry?

JAZZA: Oh, no, not at all. Actually.

ROWAN: Oh, okay.

JAZZA: I think it's basically set the year after with a new kid who comes to the same title.

ROWAN: Is it Victor?

JAZZA: He's called Victor, yeah.

ROWAN: Genius.

JAZZA: And Victor is basically all through the first season doesn't do it in later seasons, but all for your first season is messaging Simon being like, oh, I heard this thing that you did. And actually at the beginning of the series, like is like, you had a perfect life and a perfect boyfriend a perfect everything. And I actually like it's actually not everybody has it that easy. And there's a load of intersectional representation happening there with class. Victor is from a Latino background.

ROWAN: Well, this was one of the big criticisms of the movie was not just that they that the movie got made, like, no, it wasn't that the movie got made. It wasn't the way it was marketed was kind of using the classic like, Oh, this is a story for everyone. It's the everyman coming out story. It's like the story we've all been waiting for. And it was just like whites, this very upper middle class, boy with supportive parents kind of like, ah, this is the coming out story. And so I think that I'm really I'd be so interested to hear where this came from, in terms of like how directly it was a response to the criticism that this movie had against it.

JAZZA: It feels like a direct response to that they do at the beginning of it, and then in later seasons, there's a queer Muslim character. There's a lot more bi and pan.

ROWAN: You have been busy Jazza John.

JAZZA: Yeah. I'll tell you what I did. I watched four episodes of the first series. Then I watched the clip that went viral where they fluff milk, they basically make pulling an espresso sexy which is naked.

ROWAN: Very baristas very gay profession clearly.

JAZZA: And then I fast forwarded to the first episode of the final season, which is a recap of the last two seasons.

ROWAN: Oh, very helpful, very helpful.

JAZZA: I was like, oh, thank God, I never I don't have to watch the rest of it. I think it's fine.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: I don't think it's great. But I really appreciate the changes that it made to be able to kind of like show some more representation and seem to do very well it wasn't just kind of like crowbarred in or something to do.

ROWAN: Very quickly, there was a tiny bit of controversy with this because they originally were not going to allow love Victor to be on Disney+ when they were when Disney+ was only doing kid stuff there was like a whole thing about whether or not Love, Victor would be allowed to be in a Disney space that was like-

JAZZA: Oh, well, well it is porn.

ROWAN: -for teenagers and for kids.

JAZZA: Rowan, there's, there's-

ROWAN: Do they full-on-

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, obviously, not.

ROWAN: So yeah, this is so that is absolutely fascinating. I wonder, I do wonder if layer on the offbeat is gonna get an adaptation or not. Because that specifically I guess was more focused around the identity that our good friend Rebecca Albertalli friend of the show, Rebecca had kind of her experiences as a bi woman although obviously just because you're a bi woman and you wrote a bi female character does not mean might have anything to do with your life or anything like that

JAZZA: I've not read it. It could be shit I'm sure it's great, but it could be shit.

ROWAN: Could be terrible. What well, one of the real dangers with this as well as I think that because there isn't like a monolithic experience right of like being a bi woman there is there were like as many ways to be a bi woman as there are bi women. If you are doing a piece which has been labeled Own Voices, I think in some cases for all for some readers, there's almost like an extra pressure to like get it, right?

JAZZA: Right, yeah.

ROWAN: It's almost like this promise that they want to be delivered on of like, oh, this is the authenticity I want. And oftentimes, there'll be people who want the authenticity that basically just means it reflects my life as a reader who has this identity, rather than the experiences of the author, who also has that identity, but might have different experiences, right? And I think that the only way I mean, let's say, once we'll say it again, the only way we can really like combat this is just more.

JAZZA: Make more shit.

ROWAN: Just make more stuff. So you can have a bunch of by rep, and someone will, someone will be represented by some of it and not others and that's fine.

JAZZA: I think our conclusions on this brilliant, good job, let's go into our ratings.

ROWAN: Okay, let's do it.

[theme]

JAZZA: We standardize the meetings that we have for each of the movies that we review by taking the six bars of the pride flag, red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and purple, and awarding each of those to the movie, the more they get, and what is represented by each of those bars is open to interpretation and what that means. But you know, what? Who cares? Rowan, how many bars and which ones are you going to give to Love Simon? Our rating system works, Damn it!

ROWAN: It's so standardized. I'm gonna give it 2, I guess.

JAZZA: That's more generous than I thought you were gonna.

ROWAN: You know? Well, the thing is, I was like, yeah, 2. And then I was like, oh, I can't let you, you know, I'm just gonna do one because I can only find one that I think fits and it's Spirit just because of-

JAZZA: It tried?

ROWAN: Spirit being like the American high school thing where they will get spirited, I guess before the big game or something.

JAZZA: I have no idea what you're talking about.

ROWAN: Do you know that in America like spirit week high schools.

JAZZA: No.

ROWAN: I think actually was in the book. I don't think it was in the movie but yeah, it's like a thing where they just love their school so much or something. So that's what I'm going with it really get it tried. But I can't forgive it for its entire act three.

JAZZA: So you're giving it purple one bar purple, which is spirit.

ROWAN: How much are your tears worth, Jazza?

JAZZA: I'm giving it more than you.

ROWAN: Surprise, surprise. Said no one.

JAZZA: I'm gonna give it Spirit too, not because of spirit week, but because it had-

ROWAN: The ghost of Martin after the game. He emerged from the tracks of that roller coaster. God, a horrible death for Martin can't believe. I mean, I understood what they cut it because it did make it an 18 rated film.

JAZZA: Just absolute bullshit being touted by Ellis I'm gonna give it Spirit. I'm going to give it Healing because it healed me you know? And then-

ROWAN: Not what they're calling it these days choking on your own sobs.

JAZZA: Yes, choking literally couldn't function as a human for a good 45 minutes of watching that movie the first time and I'm also going to give it Sunlight for finally providing the spotlight on gay representation in this being the first gay movie ever. I wanted to give it three and I stretch for the third.

ROWAN: know what no lies told today.

JAZZA: So yellow. So that's the sunlight is yellow. So yellow, orange for healing. Purple for Spirit.

ROWAN: Beautiful.

JAZZA: There you go.

[theme]

JAZZA: Thank you so much for listening. If you enjoyed these episodes, we need your help to keep the podcast going. This podcast albeit fantastic, successful, beautiful, sexy, still loses money. So if you like what we are doing and are able to support us, please join our Patreon, literally so that we can keep the wheels on this thing.

ROWAN: Basically, so we don't have to lock Julia in a room and force her to edit for no money, which is not something any of us want.

JAZZA: Great. But anybody who joined before the end of August, we're providing individual movie recommendations. And also as a member of the Patreon you get access to our Queer Movie Club, where you have access to the Discord where there's like 400 really wonderful individuals there. We chat about movies, but also like TV series games, etc. And then we do a Queer Movie Watch Along once a month, where we all watch a movie together. We're watching Dear, Ex this week.

ROWAN: It was a close one. We weren't potentially watching Everything Everywhere All At Once. It was a close-out on the Discord very exciting that's literally happening right after we record this.

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: So yes, make sure if you enjoyed this to follow and subscribe to the podcast so you're notified of our next episode which they come out every two weeks. Always we're always churning out that good content that good gay content for you.

JAZZA: Good gay con.

ROWAN: Good gay content.

JAZZA: Thank you very much, my darlings.

ROWAN: We'll see you next time. Bye!

JAZZA: Bye! Toodaloo!

[theme]

ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast-related.

JAZZA: If you feel entertained, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patrons really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So sincerely, thank you. One of our perks on Patreon is a Queer Movie Watch Along every last Saturday of the month exclusively for our patrons hosted on our Discord. Gay fun really is had by all so come join us.

ROWAN: The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions so make sure you check out all of that other awesome podcast full of both fun and frivolity.

JAZZA: Make sure you follow and subscribe to this podcast so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you very much, my darlings you will hear us very soon. Toodaloo!

Transcriptionist: Kahyehm

Stud Life (Queer British Cinema)

21 juli 2022 | 65 min

This episode we talk about Stud Life, the story of butch lesbian's somewhat confused journey to find love on the streets of London.

This podcast needs your help to keep going - you can support us on Patreon. Go to patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast and join for as little as $5 per month and we will provide you with personalised movie recommendations, along side all the other perks that come with membership. Thank you!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

Transcript:

JAZZA: Hello, friends Jazza here will dive into the episode soon but first, Rowan and I need to ask for your help. As you know, we were able to start making episodes again because the wonderful people at Multitude believed in what we were making and the community that we have built here. We're really grateful to them and to you because we've had so much fun diving back into making these episodes. However, since we started making episodes again in November 2021, we still haven't broken even with the ad reads and the couple of dozen people who support us on Patreon, we are still losing money. Our last resort is to turn to you guys. Please, if you can support us on Patreon for as little as $5 per month. As usual, if you join us at this tier, you'll be able to join our Discord server for our Queer Movie Watch Along on the last Saturday of every month. They really are an absolute ball and the community there is really wonderful and really worth joining. But also because of this Patreon drive, Rowan and I will give everyone who is supporting us at the $5 tier and above by the 28th of August 2022 personalized movie recommendations based on your prompts. It'll be a lot of work for us, hopefully, but we want it to be something special for those of you who chose to help the podcast in a financial way. Please go to patreon.com/theQueerMoviePodcast and help keep this podcast going. We really do need your help to do so. Thank you very much. And now on with the show.

[theme]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+. Cinema one glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I am Jazza John

ROWAN: Each episode, we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

JAZZA: This episode's genre is

JAZZA AND ROWAN: Queer Britain.

JAZZA: Oh yeah, Governor!

ROWAN: This is absolutely a genre. Don't question it. Don't think about it. Just the whole of British cinema as a genre. We host the podcast we make the rules. So this week, we are going to be discussing the like celebratory butch lesbian film set in London from 2012 Stud life.

JAZZA: I am very excited to discuss how hot the main character is mainly but first row and as always, what is the gayest thing that you've done since the last episode?

ROWAN: Um, so I went to New York and I met my literary agent at a lesbian bar in New York because it turns out that there are still some around.

JAZZA: They exist.

ROWAN: I think we got like one in London right now. Like that.

JAZZA: Oh, that's sad. I remember they closed the last one in Manchester when I lived there and it was. a eulogy was held.

ROWAN: So yeah, that's essentially what I did. And then also went to like Bluestockings, which is like a very queer bookstore and, and all of that jazz. Yeah, it was very gay time. What about you, Jazza? What was the gayest thing you've done since we last spoke?

JAZZA: So we are recording this at the end of May.

ROWAN: We are.

JAZZA: Two thousand and twenty-two, and May obviously is the most important month in my calendar. Not only is it my birthday.

ROWAN: Oh, I know where this is going. Yes, of course.

JAZZA: Thank you. Thank you. Not only is it my birthday, but always around my birthday, the Eurovision Song Contest, the greatest event ever created by man happens around that time.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: This year, I was going to turn up to a Eurovision party in drag, dragged up as a previous contestant of the Eurovision.

ROWAN: Dragged up as Europe.

JAZZA: As Europe, as Europe as a whole. Unfortunately, Verka Serduchka was already taken, and also Poli is kind of retired, Poli, my drag persona. She's retired right now, she's sleeping.

ROWAN: Alright.

JAZZA: So instead I spent six hours gluing sequins to a mechanic's boiler.

ROWAN: It looked incredible.

JAZZA: Thank you so much. It is a little worse for wear now because everything has fallen off because it was glue. But I went as the UK entry Sam Ryder this year because he also had a beautiful spangly all-in-one and we came second. The UK-

ROWAN: Truly

JAZZA: -for the first time in like 20 years came second in the table winning the jury vote. I am ecstatic and this is gay because Eurovision is queer culture. I've now accidentally started a tradition where I now have to dress up as the UK entry every year so that we do well because that was obviously the thing that tipped it-

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: -into what into our favor, you know?

ROWAN: Yeah, I will be, this time next year. I'll check in with you on how that went.

JAZZA: Act dependent.

ROWAN: Does this mean that we have to host it next year?

JAZZA: We don't know. So Ukraine won.

ROWAN: Yeah, so which, you know, feels like a little bit much to put that on them right now.

JAZZA: Right, exactly.

ROWAN: Like, by the way, can you just host Eurovision next year? Can you just get the plans going?

JAZZA: So basically, I don't want to turn this into a Eurovision podcast because I've already done that my other podcast. But basically, Ukraine get first refusal.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: And then they get to choose who the next person is who gets the next refusal.

ROWAN: Okay, so we don't necessarily, it doesn't necessarily matter-

JAZZA: No.

ROWAN: -that we were second?

JAZZA: Not necessarily.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: So it could be us. It could be Poland, it could be Germany, or it could be in Ukraine depending on how things go. Because there was conflict the last time that they hosted in 20, 16/17, something like that. But we will see.

ROWAN: We'll see.

JAZZA: Americans if you haven't watched the Eurovision Song Contest, it's on YouTube. It's kind of like the American Song contest, but with history and better.

ROWAN: Excellent. Well, now that you've called out the Americans, shall we move on to the bit where we talk about the British film?

JAZZA: Let's do it.

[theme]

JAZZA: For the uninitiated, here's how we do things. We will be giving you some background on the portrayal of butch lesbians in media and where this film sits in the wider history of Queer British Cinema.

ROWAN: After that, as always, we'll be splitting the film into three acts crowbarring the Party and its Aftermath into one of them, which for listeners of the show, understand, somehow is in every single queer film that we end up reviewing, and ending as always, with our very special gay ratings.

JAZZA: We are going to be spoiling all of this movie. So this is for people who have seen the film or do not care about it being spoiled. You've been warned.

ROWAN: So without further ado, let's go cottaging in search of our own Manchester, Jeff, not from Manchester, and talk about Stud Life.

JAZZA: I write the script and I love making you say these bits every time.

ROWAN: Yeah, Jazza does write these scripts and I am too lazy to approve them before we go live. So–

JAZZA: You idiot.

ROWAN: – that's on me.

[theme]

JAZZA: British Queer Cinema has a long history though. Of course, the older films that have a lot of queer subtexts, the vampire lovers, which we have viewed on the podcast before is a clear standout of that. But also of explicitly queer movies that do tend to have kind of like the sad bent to them, but not all of them. Some of the most celebrated ones are things like My Beautiful Laundrette, which came out in the 1980s, in 1985, and told the story of a budding romance between a punk and a guy with Pakistani heritage and how they ended up running a glorious business together. It's a laundrette and maybe not that glorious.

ROWAN: It's a beautiful laundrette, Jazza.

JAZZA: It's very pretty laundrette with great decor. That's what the gays has been known for. Again, there's stuff like Orlando in the early 90s, that kind of, again, plays with LGBT themes in terms of kind of like gender identity and expression, famously with Tilda Swinton that kind of like cemented Tilda's kind of like role as the androgynous go to actor across many roles. And then we have kind of like a bit of a dearth for about a decade across the 90s, a couple of pieces from the early 2000s The Hours is kind of like a standout there that has lesbian themes. And then just before this movie Stud Life came out in 2012, one of my favorite movies, the Weekend came out in 2011, which is celebrated as a nice, cute, simple, kind of like romance story.

ROWAN: I will say in the 90s. Interestingly, mid-90s is when Beautiful Thing came out. But Beautiful Thing was originally a Channel 4 movie that they didn't necessarily think would do well enough, and only when he got a kind of a wider release, because of how popular it was, which I guess is kind of interesting. Like it wasn't necessarily like this was a British film that got made for like, to be taken into cinemas and like had an international release or something like that. So maybe there was just something about the 90s it was just in the water. I mean, like I've in terms of I feel like research about British films is kind of okay, because like we have the BFI and I feel like they keep a lot of data in a lot of records. I don't really know about the numbers for queer British films, but the British film, in general, is quite renowned for having low budgets. I think that's probably the main-

JAZZA: Scrapy-ness

ROWAN: Scrappy little British movies. And I think that like, there was some info, I don't know whether you came across this Jazza that the BFI kind of put together and kind of put together in the last kind of few decades, which basically was looking at the fact that like British movies just don't really make money for the most part, and a lot of them have budgets of like under half a million, which in Hollywood is like unthinkable. But consistently, they do better in terms of both critic and audience scores. And so it's kind of a really interesting dynamic where British cinema It's one of those things that a lot of people are very like proud of in the UK. And we have like a very strong kind of indie scene a lot of ways a lot of film festivals for how small our little island is. But notoriously, they have very little money. And I actually think that that makes a lot of our cinema, more interesting and a lot of ways because we are not able to follow the Hollywood trends because a lot of them rely on big budgets on like, superhero movies and stuff like that. So when we do superhero stuff, we have to do things like Misfits.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Because we don't have the ability to have the big thing be the powers, the big thing has to be the comedy or the drama or the characters. One of the movies, I would say comes across as more of like a British-style movie that's actually American. That goes into sci-fi, for example, the Chronicle, which is much more kind of down to earth. And so you have like Alien movies, you have Attack The Block rather than a big, huge disaster movie. And so I think that some really exciting things come from it.

JAZZA: It's like that, that restriction of the medium. And what you have to do makes you have to come up with new and interesting ways of being able to tell the story that you want to tell, because maybe you want to do like Captain America, but you have to maybe do something a little bit more interesting that relies on the writing on the performances and more creative ways of being able to get your movie across.

ROWAN: Yeah, having said that, this movie is essentially a contemporary, like drama-romance. So it doesn't necessarily have anywhere to hide in terms of like, hey, we're actually doing something really interesting or weird with genre or things like that. I think the interesting and weird thing they're doing with the genre is the fact it's queer, and specifically, the fact that it's centered around a butch character, which is, it turns out, not very common.

JAZZA: Can you tell us a little bit about that? What's butch representation been like? Because the only thing that I really can think of in my ignorance is the character in Orange is the New Black.

ROWAN: Yep, Boo, that is a character a lot of people talk about. So here is one of my absolute like pet peeves when people talk about queer representation. Because it's very much my job to think about it and to talk about it and to know about it. And I get a lot of people who find that out, talking to me about butch, lesbian characters or effeminate, gay men characters in a way that they think they assume I'll agree when they're like, oh, like, isn't it good that we've moved beyond those stereotypes? And I hate that, because I genuinely like challenge anyone who thinks that to actually count how many effeminate gay characters they have seen in a lead role with character development with like, depth, that wasn't just the butt of a joke, that wasn't just a side character to be like the gay best friend to the lead, like actually think about how many times you've seen queer men who are not, like masculine, straight passing, be able to tell their story, as opposed to prop up someone else's. And I guarantee you, it will not be a lot. And exactly the same with butch women. So having something like this, which casts this character, like as a as a lead as a romantic lead as a desirable lead is so so important. Because it is so separate from what straight society, mainstream society understands like butch women to be. And I think as well, like, there's a lot of exploration within this movie of the dynamic between butch and femme of the kind of current use of it at the time, and this film was made, which is very interesting, like the history of Butch femme as like a relationship dynamic as an identity is like extremely interesting. And, you know, unfortunately, like a lot of queer history is not necessarily known for sure. So for example, like, there is a debate in terms of the origin of the word butch, and also the word femme. So like, for butch, some people are like, it's based on existing slang at the time, some people were like, it was a slur that came from somewhere else and was reclaimed basically, immediately, in the 1940s. And other one was like it was based on the name for a style of men's haircut at the time like there's lots of theories. And there's also obviously within this more kind of disparate, and because of their very nature, secretive small communities, butch, and femme grew up within the lesbian bar scene of the 1940s and 50s, specifically, the working class lesbian bar scene. But that is, you can say that, but like if it's the 1940s It's not like everyone was in a Facebook group together discussing this stuff. And so and everyone already is very individual, and like, the queer experience is very complex. And so you to try and describe what butch means or what femme means, or even what it meant back then is a very tricky and so we do have first-hand testimony. There are a lot of people who wrote articles and essays and things like that so that this issue wouldn't be forgotten, especially because it changed so quickly. It like fell out of favor by the 1970s And then kind of has had a resurgent sense. So there's a quote from Joan Nestle, who is actually the founder of the Lesbian Herstory Archives, who wrote this essay, "So butch femme relationships as I experienced them in the 1950s. This is we're complex, erotic statements filled with a deeply lesbian language of stance, dress, gesture, loving courage, and autonomy." So it's not just oh, this is someone who's more masculine. This is someone who's more feminine. It was seen by some people as like a political identity, as a gender identity, as a sexuality, as a relationship dynamic as something you know, there's talk at the time in the 1940s if you went into a lesbian bar, you would basically be asked, are you a butch or a femme? Because it was that was the norm and if you weren't, you were described as a kiki and you were like something else like you weren't, this wasn't the norm like you were just over there.

JAZZA: I love that kiki now in like-

ROWAN: Totally different.

JAZZA: -is like party is like I wouldn't mind being called the party to be completely honest.

ROWAN: Exactly. And there's also a lot of to that point of, it's not necessarily like a masculine and woman, woman is necessarily butch and a feminine woman is necessarily femme. So Alison Bechdel, the absolute legend has talked about the fact that that she doesn't talk about herself as butch, I think there's a quote, "It's a lovely word, but I'll take it if you give it to me. But I'm afraid I'm not butch enough to really claim it, because part of being butch is owning it and that whole aura around him." So it's not necessarily like this is the label you specifically fit into it kind of has more to it than just an aesthetic or just a, a connection with the, I guess more potentially cis normative/heteronormative idea of masculine versus feminine. And I think for like, as someone who identifies as femme in a lot of ways, and has over the years, like my experience of femininity, is very different to a straight woman's experience of femininity. And what it means to call myself femme is very different what it would mean if a straight woman was like, oh my god, I'm so femme. Like, it's a very different vibe.

JAZZA: It lands weirdly, if I were to hear a cis straight woman say that it kind of feels like a misuse of the word even, where it feels like a very queer-specific word.

ROWAN: Yes. And this has been something that's been debated more recently, because obviously femme is an interesting one because femme itself is a French word. And so there have been like clothes-

JAZZA: Means woman for our linguists.

ROWAN: Thank you so much. Jazza. So there, there was like a time when there were loads of clothes and like H&M and stuff a couple of years ago that had like femme on them as an as like a term. And a lot of lesbians were like, oh, no, it was like, this is like, this is gonna get very confusing and also just seems a little bit out of touch. But it was a lot of people being like, I'm actually it's a French word. It's nothing to do with you people.

JAZZA: Oh, my God, thank you so much internet.

ROWAN: These terms back in the 40s and 50s very much specifically were used in a very particular context. But obviously, it's expanded. So for example, if anyone has seen like Pose or seen Paris is Burning or seen any documentaries, or read anything about the ballroom scene, you'll know, oh, there are some categories include these terms, like butch realness, for example, is one that you'll see. And so we also have the use of the words now, with all other sexualities and also gender identities will claim it like I definitely know, like gay men who refer to themselves as femme, for example.

JAZZA: 100%. It's somewhat of a reclaimed thing in the gay male community, because for such a long time, it is like there's the dating profile, cliche of “No Fats, Femmes, or Asians”, and that we've seen more recently a reclaiming of like femme as like something more celebratory for gay men who present themselves as more effeminate and more feminine.

ROWAN: Yeah. And you'll see, we'll talk a bit when we talk about the movie in a second, about the way that this kind of interact. So for example, they talk about the fact that JJ is a touch me not stud, or a stone butch, which essentially is a butch who has a desire to touch rather than to be touched. So they'd rather give them receive, they're kind of not interested in being, let's say, sexually explored by their partner. But that's not the only way to be a butch, right? There are soft butches there are like people who don't necessarily subscribe to any of those labels around their sexual interests, like with their butc identity, it's not necessarily tied together in the same way. You can have a asexual butches, you can have a romantic butch, it's like, you know, all these things can exist together and same with femmes. And so, what we see is like stereotypes be presented by JJ, by Elle towards each other, they do some generalizations of like, oh, you butches are the same, we studs are the same like, you, like the femmes are always like this. And they often are, like, breaking down those stereotypes within the narrative, because it isn't like one way to be either one of them. I think that's very important. And I will also say specifically that like, stud as a term is like a black lesbian term, which is why it makes sense that it's used here with JJ and there's like a few other terms that were specifically within the black lesbian community. So that's the reason why I'm talking about butch here. But the word stud is kind of used in the movie interchangeably. And that's one of the reasons it's not necessarily interchangeable entirely for everyone. But it seems like specifically JJ in this movie kind of identifies with both labels.

JAZZA: It's really wonderful to see, like you were talking about this earlier, the butch, lesbian, and the femme gay, kind of like dynamic and like a friendship of people who identify as such at the center of like a romance story, and both of them having character development. Now, I'm not going to pretend that this is the most well-produced film that's ever been created. But just the fact that it holds those two characters at its center. Just really excited me throughout. And yeah, the transitions are bad. And yes, sometimes kind of like the writings, it like swings from left to right, a little jarringly. But that's what really kind of like hooked me into the story. It made me really excited to kind of like to know more about like the lives of JJ and Seb, the two main characters.

ROWAN: Alright. Shall we dig into the movie itself that now we've got all the kind of context out of the way for anyone who might be wondering about it.

JAZZA: Yes, I would love that.

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[midroll]

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JAZZA: So my act one is very much called The Party in its Aftermath. We're starting off strong.

ROWAN: Excellent.

JAZZA: So we begin with an introduction of both Seb and JJ I have just written JJ is hot but fuck boy, JJ is hot but the fuck boy. Discuss.

ROWAN: I don't necessarily agree with that assessment. I mean, JJ is hot. I meant JJ being a fuck boy.

JAZZA: At the beginning, I definitely got this vibe. And there's things later on in terms of like how JJ reacts to the stuff that we learn about Elle. I don't know I stand, I stand by it. That's my interpretation of the character.

ROWAN: Okay, okay. Well, you know, have a debate in the associate comments, we don't really have comments. Have a debate in we're not on YouTube Jazza, this is a podcast. Have a debate on our Twitter slash Instagram, if you will, or our Discord that you can join us if you're a patron. Wow, I can't believe I slipped that seamlessly.

JAZZA: Yeah, really fantastic. So they share some disdain for straight men, we then go straight into watching them at the gay bar and seeing them kind of, like socialize in their natural environment.

ROWAN: Yes, we also find out that JJ and several wedding photographers, they work as wedding photographers together, which, you know, in the context of Britain at the time, is, like, made me kind of sad, in a way because I'm like, at the time when this was made, you couldn't get married as a gay person and so you could have a civil partnership. It was kind of in that in between years, but they're essentially like gay wedding photographers, photographing street people being able to get married, that sometimes it kind of shows you throughout the movie various like weddings that they go to, and some of the straight ones kind of end in tragedy. And it was that real thing of like, wow, the sanctity of marriage ey, straighties? Like I see how it is.

JAZZA: Yeah. Yeah, I actually really liked that dig that we ended up having because there's a few weddings that JJ goes to photograph and Seb is always there with like this tiny, like lighting.

ROWAN: With a little reflector that’s so small.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: We could not do anything for anyone who knows about photography, like the idea of a reflector, like bouncing light, making sure like the shadows are okay and it's so tiny it is it's like a dinner plate.

JAZZA: Yeah, it's very, very cute. But I do like that we get to see kind of like this world of all of the queer people who are maybe having a non-conventional kind of like poly celebration of their relationship where two of the members of the poly relationship are getting civilly partnered or married. There's one where somebody who was fleeing their home country because of persecution of their sexuality is getting a marriage of convenience with or less civil partnership of convenience with somebody. This was a good two years before we had equal marriage in the UK. So I really appreciated kind of like showing those different types of people looking at the system and being like, "Well, how do I make this work for me?"

ROWAN: And if anyone's like, “Wow, I can't believe that that refugee had to marry in order to stay in the country to prove that he was gay.” Can I recommend a documentary made by our very own Jazza John, that's actually very, very good. In which he did explore this exact topic of how ridiculous that is.

JAZZA: It is.

ROWAN: You're welcome, I love to promote you as well, Jazza.

JAZZA: You're very kind. Jazza John and all social media platform.

ROWAN: So yes, they go on this night out. And JJ flirts with a girl called Elle, then throws up on her shoes.

JAZZA: Yes. Oh, my God, this moment-

ROWAN: Just absolute chaos.

JAZZA: -came out of this meet cute is absolutely ridiculous.

ROWAN: It was a meeting not cute, essentially. And like, writes her name on her arm and then like, goes outside, because they're like, I just threw up on this girl shoes, I need to leave. And then Elle leaves with another woman, gets into a cab. And it's like, wow, what a great night out we just had incredible really struck out. And then on the way back, it doesn't improve because he gets harassed in the street. And one of the things that I really, like, can't not do now, because I've done so much media criticism, and I know so much about narrative structure is like look for the plot points of like, a classic narrative structure. And this is that moment where you're like, okay, cool. This is a moment of characterization that's going to come back and we will probably have changed at the end of the movie. And it is the decision that Seb really wants to fight back, like Seb. They get harassed and Seb's like, "Let me at em." And JJ is a lot calmer and basically is like, "We should only ever fight back if we know we're gonna win." And I'm like, ah, the theme stated, interesting. Well, I see if we'll come back to this, we'll see if this was a good decision by both of them. But I also really enjoy the fact that it does give us a complication of what potentially if this was a movie that was made by straight people, which this movie for context absolutely was not because Campbell Ex is the director, who I actually have had the pleasure to work with before.

JAZZA: Amazing.

ROWAN: And also a couple of other people. So Mizz Kimberly, who's in this is one of the brides, the diva bride at the beginning on a queer web series a while ago, I did marketing for them, like years ago now. And so it was like really wild to like, watch again, this movie with someone that I've worked with and be like, oh my gosh, look at the earlier work. This is so cool. But yeah, basically like this idea of, you know what it is to be butch what it is to be masculine versus what is to be of a more feminine man. I feel like the stereotypes would be all the more feminine man will be the coward. The more feminine man will be the one who's like, "Leave it, leave it." And JJ will be the one the aggressive, black butch woman who would be like, "Oh, I'm all for the violence." And I really appreciated that, you know, we have this always subverting maybe like more of a cis straight audience's expectations really complicating the ideas of these identities that clearly like It's like being butch being a stud means a lot to JJ and it's a really integral part of her identity. But it's not simple.

JAZZA: Campbell has spoken that director has spoken a little bit about the development of Seb as a character as well and suggested that he's effeminate. But it's kind of has this internalized homophobia or femme phobia of around himself and that part of his identity. And that is the reason why he pushes up in his like turns to violence whenever the opportunity arises and also has this for rough boys. And this is I mean, there's a, we're talking about kind of like setting up of plots and narrative structures. There is a gargantuan Chekhov's gun here, where they mentioned like the guys that Seb he's going after and JJ says, "Your love of Rough Trade is going to get you in serious trouble." And I'm like, "Ahh..."

ROWAN: Hmm. I wonder if it's going to get him into serious trouble. Spoiler alert: It does.

JAZZA: So after JJ has I mean, recovered, I guess from less than glamorous evening, trying to get trade. JJ ends up working at this straight wedding, right, where I think the bride ends up coming and kissing JJ in the bathroom, which is all very, the scene is very, very odd. And then later, Elle happens to be there who JJ was trying to kind of like flirt with that I believe it's the night before or maybe it's a little bit later. Elle's ex is also at the wedding. Coincidence and they end up having like, like, Elle looks jealous and then comes up to JJ and writes a, write her number on JJ's shirt, and I guess they're dating now?

ROWAN: What a, what a power move just writing your number on someone's work shirt.

JAZZA: It's very last day in sixth form, isn't it?

ROWAN: Oh, my God. It is. Love that. Like drawing a penis on their back afterwards and being like, "Ah! Bye! I'm out of here."

JAZZA: Any Americans listen to this and confused. It's our culture don't come for us.

ROWAN: I will say that the thing in this movie that I didn't necessarily feel like was as developed as I wanted it to be was this romance. I really enjoyed the discussion and development that happens within the romance around sex around the boundaries of like that I really felt like that was way more developed than I've ever seen, especially in lesbian media, where we tend to have this weird like nonverbal, which I think there's a lot in it that really feels to me like the sexualization of lesbians, and the idea of like lesbian sex scenes within straight cinema. It baffles me that it happens in gay cinema as well. But within straight cinema, it feels like well, if they start talking about boundaries and consent, and whatever, that's not sexy, is it like you know, that maybe not. And so I really liked that we got a lot of like, discussion of those of those kinks discussion of like, you know, what was going on with the two of them while in the relationship. But I didn't necessarily feel like the relationship itself. I was, I was super convinced by especially, we'll talk when we get to the third acts. But as with all like romantic dramas, or romantic comedies, there's the bit where they break up and the bit, they get back together. And that, for me is always the same as like when you have a mystery film. And if the mystery isn't concluded in a satisfactory way, it kind of like the film was, even if the first two acts were incredible, the third act can let it down, specifically. Because of that, and I feel like with romance movies, it's the same if you don't feel like the character who has done something wrong, has redeemed themselves well enough, or that their communication has been sorted out, or that they've changed enough. I never really buy into that last one. And I feel like in this movie, it kind of that was the thing that I was a bit iffy on was like, they haven't actually changed at all. They've just gotten back together. And I don't necessarily think that that's as convincing in terms of like, wow, what a good romance they've had.

JAZZA: We'll talk about this in a bit, but I think the movie tries to do that. But the swing of change, like the slip up that JJ has, I think just comes left field. And then, therefore, it's like it feels quite unbelievable. And then when we have like, the resolution of JJ is just like, Oh, you are the same as I thought you were at the beginning of the movie. But we'll talk about that in a minute.

ROWAN: In a little bit. We love to just give you a little tease.

JAZZA: Can we talk about very briefly, the vlogs that JJ does.

ROWAN: Please do, Jazza.

JAZZA: That kind of like break up. So throughout the movie, there were kind of like these mini, it's generous to call them vignettes like they're, they're styled as JJ is uploading to YouTube. But it looks like YouTube in 2007, when everything was gray, and like they were boobs in thumbnails. And JJ has a video blog where there are discussions, or JJ like is raising the problems of relationships and all of those kinds of things and always signs off with, let me know what you think. But then we never get any response. There's no light chatter of kind of like what the audience is saying. We don't know if anybody is watching these videos, and they don't really quite understand, or while I was watching, I didn't quite understand why they were there. After I had a dig and looked at some of the interviews that Campbell Ex had done. It was quite interesting that it seems like the inspiration behind this was the fact that Campbell couldn't find any very much Like butch representation in any media, even queer media at the time when this film was being put together, and there's this quote where Campbell says about butch representation. This sort of woman is rarely on the big screen TV or even in LGBT press, so I had to go searching elsewhere. I found women like JJ on YouTube as stud lesbians are excluded from other mainstream LGBT and straight media. They are creating their own stories online. And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh, I actually really liked the vlogs. Because I don't know if you remember this era of YouTube, Rown. but it used to be a joke that everybody around like 2007 2008 that everyone on YouTube was either gay or Asian. And it was people who were not cast in comedic roles or weren't given opportunities to pursue careers in the media, who saw YouTube and started using YouTube as as a way of being able to craft their own stories tell their own stories. And I actually quite like that this film that is doing so much for telling stories of characters that we so very rarely see, kind of does a little nod and an homage to user-generated content on early web 2.0 Even though it is god awfully terrible.

ROWAN: I really, I felt like you had a very strong reaction when you were like, I didn't like the vlogs before we were talking about it. I do think that some of the stuff that's brought up in the vlogs is really interesting. I really enjoyed the fact that we were talking about it very early about, yeah, about deltas about lesbian sex about the dynamics of butch and femme about-

JAZZA: I love the JJ calls like the shall we say phallic-y creative dildo, the alien dildo? Just like, yeah, 100%

ROWAN: I know you people are into this. But also the, like, she talks about the idea of like, assumptions that are made about sex. And the you know, the idea that see, you know, some feminine women don't want to be fucked at all. Like they're asexual lesbians are pillow princesses. They're like stone butchers. And she says like, it takes all sorts to make the lesbian nation like, I think that that's really a healthy thing considering how like, I don't think I've really ever seen representation of a stone butch like in media as a thing. Let alone it being talked about and explained and discussed in a way

JAZZA: Could you describe what a stone butch is? Because I've actually never heard the term until you started saying it.

ROWAN: So this was the touch me not stud.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: It's the same thing. So stone butch. I mean, so, so much blues is probably the most famous exam like way that people might have heard of the phrase I would say outside of lesbian context. Essentially, it's someone who doesn't want to be touched specifically a butch because you can have like stone femmes. But a stone butch is someone who doesn't want to be touched sexually, which is why you'll see in the movie, like Elle tries to go down on JJ a couple of times on the roof. And if I feel like if you didn't have the context of the vlogs you might be like, just JJ like not like a maybe JJ likes, doesn't like it being public. Or maybe JJ is okay with it when they've been on a few dates. Like why is JJ saying no?

JAZZA: Not knowing about the stone butch thing, I read it as body dysmorphia.

ROWAN: So this is a this is interesting, right? Because you if you have you talk about the idea of like mask lesbians in the 1940s, then are all going to be cis, do you know what I mean? And like, and like you're gonna have people who are using the communities that are available at the time who if they were born 50 years later might well be like, "Well, I am in fact a trans man." or, "I am in fact, nonbinary." or whatever that might be. And so there are definitely elements of a sort of gender dysphoria that you can see within that, but it's not necessarily like linked to that, you know, these things are complicated. And so when you have this idea of like, I would rather give, I would rather do things to you like that's what satisfies me in terms of sensuality, sexuality, romance, whatever it might be. And that leads like a discussion that JJ and Elle openly have about this. And Elle says kind of like I really like you like I'm really good at it. Like I really like giving, and there's this moment of like, okay, is this gonna be a deal breaker between them and JJ? Like, I mean, I really don't like that happening. And I was like, you know, fine, like, I don't have to like I can ask, but I don't have to have it.

JAZZA: Yeah, I absolutely loved the representation of like, Elle and JJ sex in this movie.

ROWAN: Me too.

JAZZA: Like, It was still super fucking sexy. And actually, the conversation was really hot as well. And JJ even I loved the line where JJ says, "Where is it?" It's like, you don't need to eat everything from the lesbian buffet or something along those lines, and I'm just like, that's a fantastic way of doing it.

ROWAN: That's how it goes. But yeah, no, I think that the vlogs allowed us to explain in a way that was like, gave us a framing device for being more like didactic in a way but like in a conversational way. Like it wasn't because there's no one really in JJ's life that would need to have this stuff explained to them. Like I think Seb and JJ have been friends for so long that like JJ, like Seb have already heard all this from JJ, it would have been really weird if Seb have been like I don't understand about your sex life. Like, they don't want to talk about it. Like that's not how the relationship works. So having this vlog allows an audience to hear about this. And to understand that this is what's going on without it being like weirdly shoehorned into dialogue, which that was like a good a good use of that, as well as all the stuff you said about like representation and kind of being a nod to that kind of user-generated content as well.

[theme]

JAZZA: So my Act 2, it still has a working title, something along the lines of dating JJ is awkward when they go on their first date to Victoria Park, which I really enjoyed because I live around the corner from it. I think it's a it's a terrible date. I don't think JJ really asks anything about Elle's interests, and maybe would have eliminated any of the trouble that they have later on in their relationship. But there you go. We ended up as well as what after the consensual sex makingm JJ ends up getting targeted for I don't know why I'm walking like, JJ gets beaten up. So gets clocked for not being a cis guy and then gets chased by a load of guys down the road and beaten up, ends up going into a corner shop, it looks like with two black owners. And I really loved the moment where the woman who owns the shop says, "Some people don't understand special people like you.", which is a phrase that I'm 100% stealing and using in the future.

ROWAN: I just you say that, but all I can think of in the future, the use that you would do with me is if I ever said to you something like someone doesn't understand, you'll be like, "Oh, yeah, some people just start understand special people like you." I'm waiting for that to happen in our friendship, which also is very, very quickly because I've got Seb at the beginning. There's a lot of ribbing between Seb and JJ that we see. And I was like, what great British friendship representation like this to people who love each other. Like because when JJ is explaining why she's friends with Seb, she's like, "Well, I can't be friends with a femme because that gets complicated."

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: "I can't be friends with a straight man because gross. I can't be friends with another stud because we'd be checking out the same talent. So I guess I gotta be friends with a gay man. And also, I guess I love him." But like, like, and I'm like, god, that's such a British friendship to a T. It's actually what I'd say about you.

JAZZA: Yeah, exactly. It did make me think this is like another universe, a very different universe, but it is very similar. So JJ goes home ad Elle is there to kind of like lend support. Seb also arrives, and Elle's trying to convince JJ to go to the police and report the attack. Where Seb goes, "Oh, JJ doesn't want to report it and become part of their shit-stem." Some like a like, a system, great-

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: -play there. Yeah. Absolute legend. Shakespeare of his time. I totally kind of like understand that didn't like that lack of desire to engage with a system that historically has not worked for black people, has not worked for queer people, and going to report things to the police where there's a lot an awful lot of abuse that came from those spaces historically.

ROWAN: So after JJ has had this, like horrible, horrible experience, the morning afterward, we start to get we've had a little bit of tension between Elle and Seb. Bot necessarily between them specifically. But you know, Seb, not thinking that Elle is good for JJ. And now we get this idea of like, okay, there's a lot of jealousy here. There's a lot of like, best friend versus new partner who is spending time with because JJ has forgotten that she's meant to be going to breakfast with Seb and Elle, rather than being like, oh, go and have breakfast with your friend or like, oh, can I tag along or whatever is going on? Just kind of get angry that she's gonna go and she's like, why did you not tell him to go away? Like I'm here?

JAZZA: I hated all of this.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Like, I just, I also don't think the setup really made very much sense or because we hadn't really seen Elle and Seb interaction before. And so I wasn't really understanding where this animosity was coming from, you know?

ROWAN: Yeah. And they basically this all ends up in a fight and Seb quits the photography job. And so the conclusion of this is that JJ apologizes to Elle with some flowers and we get a classic date montage. Classic, good little montage. We love a good montage in a queer movie specifically. Of course.

JAZZA: Of course, everyone has to have it. We eventually ended up at, I believe it's Elle's flat, where, like Elle keeps on saying, Oh, you're not going to think about me the same way, if you know what I do as a job, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla. They have a real again, a really cool sexy scene. And I don't think I've ever seen BDSM with this level of kind of like emotional connection in kind of like cinema in any way, if I'm completely honest, outside of one that is trying to kind of like educate people about how to partake in those kinds of relationships.

ROWAN: Although if anyone is looking for a good BDSM rom-com, like something that's more light, and that goes into like, a similar vibe in terms of having these scenes which are like negotiated or discussed whatever Love and Leashes on Netflix as a South Korean movie, it is delightful. And I fully want a full TV show of these characters. They're so fun.

JAZZA: If you're looking for something that's educational, as well, What's the Safe Word on YouTube is a very good-

ROWAN: Oh, I love Safe Word! Anyway, sorry, we'll continue with this. We're not just gonna give you, here's recommendations-

JAZZA: Your reading list.

ROWAN: All recommendations, here's what you can go do. I agree with you completely. I think that we very rarely see negotiate incidents of kink. And specifically, within the context of this, we have a, I guess, a realistic scenario in which one person starts to do something or request something that the other person is like, I've not really done this before, but I guess fine, but that communication makes it the way that they communicate kind of makes it work like they clearly have like are going to have these conversations afterward. So like, Elle gets JJ to slap her. And but keeps encouraging is like, "Can you do it harder?" Like, "I like this like this is something I'm into." And JJ is not necessarily into the idea of like sadism within BDSM but seems very into the idea of like servicing out. Like which makes sense as like a stone butch like the idea of like, okay, cool. I'm doing something that my partner likes. And this is something we're communicating like, she's telling me how hard she's telling me that this is what I want. And I really enjoyed that I really enjoyed the fact that they were discussing and negotiating and like having a conversation around it as it was happening. But it didn't take away from how much they were both enjoying it. And then we have like, a little bit later, we know that they've clearly discussed it even further, because we talk about like Elle talks about the idea of like, oh, you know, the kind of stuff I like, like this is something we've discussed. And I kind of enjoyed that. It's like a nice little checking in. Are you okay, does this work? Which we kind of saw previously within the scenes where Elle was asking about like, can I? Are we not going to have sex? Like how are we going to have sex? Can I touch you here? Can I touch you there like, felt very, I really enjoyed that. I really felt that was good.

JAZZA: Yeah, it is very good. It then does a whole 180 though, where Elle discloses that she is a dominatrix, specifically for she talks about being a dominatrix for white men, and kind of like playing on the fantasy and getting financial gain off of white men who want to be dominated by a black woman. JJ completely loses it. Does, and I'll be honest, this is a bit where like, the movie loses me a bit where that reaction that JJ has kind of like loses it ends up leaving, they basically break up after Elle discloses her job. And I was like, after all of the kind of like, great communication that we have had up to this point, JJ then like throws toys out of a pram, like it. This didn't make a lot of sense to me and went from zero to 100 incredibly quickly. What did you, what did you think, Rowan?

ROWAN: I kind of agree with that. I felt like we need a little bit more character development or a little bit more character revelation for me to feel like that was believable.

JAZZA: Right.

ROWAN: Like because we had had some hints I think at the idea of like, people's past trauma coming into it. So like Elle, when she was getting annoyed at JJ for blowing her over Seb in that breakfast scene. Kind of says like, if you start flicking me around now, it will just continue and I'm like, okay, there's clearly been a relationship you've been in that's happened, that something like that has happened, but you never really get a scene in which they actually have a conflict or discussion where they talk about the idea of like, I was projecting this thing that happened with my ex on to you or, like, you know, there's lots of ways that this could have been resolved. And the frustrating thing about it is the acting in that scene is great from both of them. Like I was like this is kind of painful to watch because there's like, they're both just like it never gets to a point of physical violence, right?

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: It's not a scene that I feel like I I've seen in like straight movies, it feels really icky. Where the guy starts like getting like-

JAZZA: Like, punches a wall.

ROWAN: -angry or punches the wall or like shakes the woman or whatever. It's very clear that JJ is like, very angry at this situation and very much like not into it. But all that JJ wants us to leave. JJ is like I'm not wanting to hurt you. I'm not doing the thing and I'm just trying to leave and like the emotion from Elle, like I felt like that was some of the most like intense unbelievable acting in terms of like an isolated scene. But the fact that you're right, there wasn't necessarily any indication that JJ would feel that way. Because there's lots of reasons why within the context of this, you could add something to the character that would make more sense to do with that. So is it specifically because it's sex versus love? Is it that it's men? Is it? You know, is there some insecurity of JJ's? It's like very specific, that would mean that this would be an issue, like, what is it? And so that, yeah, I was I definitely agree with you that it wasn't I wasn't necessarily like, "Oh, yes. This is all making sense. This was inevitable when this comes out." And I think that's what's really interesting for me, is like, Seb comes to Elle's defense.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And I feel like that's meant to be kind of like the resolution that we see. I'll be honest, this, this whole thing didn't make sense to me. Like, he's first of all, warning JJ, about, "Oh, you're not gonna like it when he found out what she does as a job." and JJ's like, "Oh, I don't care, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." then they have that falling out after JJ gets jumped, and then Seb comes in and starts defending Elle. I don't know that. Like, I understand what the film was trying to do. But I just feel like the connections didn't happen, as well as I would have wanted them to. Maybe we do a 10-year remake. Like, who knows?

ROWAN: Maybe it was just like, sub solidarity because we also at this point-

JAZZA: Oh, yeah.

ROWAN: -find out that Seb is like on the forums, on the apps, specifically as a sub.

JAZZA: Oh, hold on. We're about to go into Act Three.

ROWAN: Oh, here we go.

[theme]

JAZZA: I have called Act Three: The Legacy of Manchester Jeff.

ROWAN: Yeah. Incredible.

JAZZA: Who is a thank you so much. It's one of my greatest work. Manchester Jeff is an anonymous profile, I guess, on I'm pretty sure is-

ROWAN: I know. You're talking about what's anonymous about Manchester Jeff that's entirely searchable, and very safe?

JAZZA: YSure. 100%. It is very, like early 2010s gaydar dating. For that I did. Like I was almost triggered, I'll be completely honest from seeing the interface on screen that Seb is partaking on before we had Grindr, my little baby gays, we had to go on to forums and tell people where we were.

ROWAN: ASL? ASL?

JAZZA: ASL!

ROWAN: Age Sex Location.

JAZZA: Oh, my god. Do you know how long I was using these chat rooms before I actually knew what ASL meant.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: It was years, Rowan. It was years.

ROWAN: Incredible.

JAZZA: There was a moment that I just need to address.

ROWAN: Okay, please address.

JAZZA: Where Seb, is waking in the kitchen. And then JJ walks in on seven one king in the kitchen. And I'm like Seb, "That's what happens when you wank in the kitchen."

ROWAN: Maybe he's into that maybe he's into the thrill.

JAZZA: With JJ? I'm not okay with this.

ROWAN: So they basically we're setting up here. We've been sprinkling in that something bad is gonna happen to Seb as we discussed earlier.

JAZZA: Yeah. The aforementioned Checkoff's gun is going to explode.

ROWAN: Yeah and JJ and Seb decide that they want to go for a picnic, which honestly very me, I felt very represented as a gay a decadent picnic is very me.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: And so they go for this picnic and ended up going with the drug dealer who we haven't mentioned yet, but there's a drug dealer who fancy Seb and basically it's implied is running away from some clientele, gets into their car through a window and just decides to join them on the picnic. Love that. Manchester Joe, however, turns up at the park, very out of the blue and, Seb's like, it's fate. It's Cupid's arrows like let's go I'm gonna go and have some sex with that man in the bushes. Meanwhile, the drug dealer who it turns out is called Tristan.

JAZZA: Tristan de Mortimer.

ROWAN: Perry to his friends.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Just like casually just continuing their picnic as you know. It's not going well in the woods for our, our lovely boy Seb who essentially tries to have a blowjob, reciprocated and this man who apparently is not even from Manchester, I

JAZZA: I know.

ROWAN: It's basically like, I'm not gay.

JAZZA: I'm not gay.

ROWAN: And therefore I'm going to beat you up which, you know, isn't great, gang.

JAZZA: It isn't. There's also quite a weird kind of like juxtaposition that the film tries to do. Where I was like, is this sex in the woods scene meant to be funny, until Seb gets beaten up? Because you have Seb orally pleasuring often from Manchester Jeff.

ROWAN: Wait, is he called Jeff or Joe?

JAZZA: I think it's Jeff, isn't it?

ROWAN: Who knows? Whatever Manchester Joe?

JAZZA: I don't think it's his real name anyway.

ROWAN: Yeah, it's that's very - sorry, could we just checked his passport real quick. his driver's license?

JAZZA: I'm not sure is that the right spelling? While he's sucking off Manchester Jeff, they pop the champagne like a little. And I'm like, That's really funny. But then Seb immediately gets beaten up and bloodied and comes back to his friends. And I'm like, I don't I don't understand what the emotional takeaway is meant to be from the scene. It was really really odd for me. And then we very quickly go into Tristan de Mortimer so, Perry to his friends who has been pining after Seb for a while, then like looks after Seb gives him an Ibuprofen or something.

ROWAN: Ibuprofen.

JAZZA: Ibuprofen or something I know how I want to pronounce it, Rowan. Other people are wrong.

ROWAN: It's very I did that line did make me like do like a half laugh out loud. When I was just like a drug dealer giving this poem that given this man a pill, and JJ's was immediate like, "What the, What the fuck are you doing to give him a drug?" He's like, "It's Ibuprofen."

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Like, JJ, god won't even think that of me. Which is great.

JAZZA: And then they basically get together. Tristan has to read some Shakespeare.

ROWAN: It's classic for comfort, okay? It's classic, tending him by the bedside. It's a classic romance tropes all coming together. Reading some Shakespeare they just are together from then on. You just don't even question it. That it's kind of like a cool sub storyline is wrapped up, I guess. Let's see what the ending for JJ and Elle is at that point.

JAZZA: What is it, Rowan? Go on, tell me.

ROWAN: Well, essentially, JJ and Seb go for a night owl. And Elle is there but doesn't want to talk to JJ. So they have this big fight they get banned from the club. Seb's like okay, maybe I'll give up and Perry's like, don't give up. And you're like, okay, just because it worked for you, Perry, where you just hung around long enough to like for the boy to need an ibuprofen. Like doesn't mean it's going to work for everyone. They also at this point, go and do like a wedding with a, like a groom hasn't turned up at the wedding. And so like JJ is like love doesn't exist, like the all of this is stupid. But Seb and Perry getting engaged. No indication as to how long it's been-

JAZZA: Nope.

ROWAN: -since all this happened. It could have been a week, could have been five years, who can tell? And when Perry proposes in front of JJ, it's like, wow, I guess romance does exist. And so asks Elle to meet her where their first date was. And at first, it's like, oh, no, is Elle gonna turn up or not? JJ thinks not, throws down the flowers, and kicks them a bit. And it's like, "My life sucks!" But it turns out Elle just had a broken heel, classic femme. Ugh [Jazza laughs] and does turn up until they kiss and makeup. And that's how it goes. And then like Elle has the rings from earlier and they agreed to go slow. No promises, even though they just exchanged wedding rings.

JAZZA: Rings, yeah.

ROWAN: And later, like the kind of epilogue scene as JJ taking photos at Perry and Seb's wedding. JJ is best man obviously. And then the like, finishes on the last vlog which is like, what is true love? How do you know if you found it? The end.

JAZZA: The end? No answer. No answer.

ROWAN: Who knows?

JAZZA: What a cliffhanger.

ROWAN: So yeah, this I feel like what I was saying earlier about the fact that Act Three doesn't really like feel like it has a lot of like, okay, and now we've resolved the issues. Because we also don't see which is a thing that happened in quite a lot of rom coms where you will only see one or romantic dramas, which I guess is kind of goes into you only see one person's point of view from the couple. But I'm like, what has, why has Elle changed her mind? Like why is Elle gone from having this like really intense fight with JJ about like, they never discussed the fact that Elle is still doing this job. Like there's no resolution of that.

JAZZA: Yeah, resolution of that. They're just like, "Oh, I really like you now." Okay, guess. Sure, sure.

ROWAN: So yeah, my conclusion is essentially, that I mean, well, maybe we'll do it when we get to the actual rating section, I guess, like my official rating for it. But I do think that that last third, the last act kind of I was like, what, how are these dots connecting? And I think especially because we had this scene that was extremely like hinted at throughout, which was Seb being beaten up. But we'd had JJ go through something very similar earlier, with three men beat her up in the street, and she had to like flee to get away from it. And then we have this thing with Seb who gets kicked in the ribs like two times and then Manchester Joe runs off. And I was like, I kind of expected that to be something like a bigger payoff, like in an awful way because obviously, it was gonna be a horrible traumatic scene that was going to happen that was hinted at, but it kind of felt like it was just like mirroring this thing that we'd already seen with JJ we've seen a character go through. So yeah, it was a bit of a stretch. I didn't really quite know what to make of like the whole structure overall.

JAZZA: I think Seb and his story arc make more sense than JJs.

ROWAN: I don't think you're wrong.

JAZZA: Yes, Seb has a better structure to his story and I feel like it like over usually we see the whole thing through JJ. But it would have made more sense for this story with the characters as they are written now to be done from maybe Seb's perspective, which I think is a shame because obviously, they're like, I, I love JJ. I just feel that there were some threads like the beats were there, but they weren't connected very well.

ROWAN: Well, I guess with that in mind, shall we see what we ultimately rated the movie?

JAZZA: Let's dive into our ratings.

[theme]

JAZZA: So anybody who doesn't know we rate all of our movies that we review by awarding it bars of the six-barred rainbow flag. So any combination of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, or purple. Rowan, have you decided what colors and how many you're going to give?

ROWAN: So I think that I'm going to give this movie, oooh.

JAZZA: your face.

ROWAN: I'm that was the face I'm making is like, "Oh, I hadn't really decided." Because I feel like it's getting points for me on a meta-level. Like, there was stuff about the performance of the movie I enjoyed. I wasn't like, well, I'm bored. I'm gonna switch this off. But I also feel like the idea of having like a black butch lesbian as the main character in a film itself is worth a stripe.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: So I'm gonna go with three.

JAZZA: Interesting.

ROWAN: And I'm gonna go with, like red. Because I feel like we've got-

JAZZA: Some life.

ROWAN: -got the life.

JAZZA: Yeah. yeah.

ROWAN: Got all that jazz. I'm gonna go with spirit, the purple because I feel like we got some characters a lot of spirit. And I'm gonna go with green. Because someone got sucked off in the woods.

JAZZA: The woods. Yes. Also, I was thinking Ibuprofen, that's not a natural thing. That's literally something that we created, I'm very similar to you. I think I'm only gonna give it 2.

ROWAN: That was what I was trying to decide.

JAZZA: Because of that third act, and I'm gonna give it life because they're certainly living.

ROWAN: They are living.

JAZZA: And you know what the spirit of this movie is fantastic. Like, it's got proverbial balls, and really tries to sell a story that hasn't really been told before and I don't think has been told since. So yeah, there we go.

ROWAN: Those are our ratings. We'd love to hear if you agree with them or not, which you can do if you follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Queer Movie Pod. Because you'll be able to message us directly tag us in your thoughts, because we would love to hear what you think especially with a movie like this where it's a movie a lot of people have never heard of. It's more of a kind of niche thing. And I think one of the things we want to do with the podcast was let people hear about more niche movies or movies, they wouldn't necessarily find themselves on like the top 10 list of Hollywood releases of the last 20 years kind of thing.

JAZZA: And if you love the idea of being able to keep up to date, and open your minds to like new queer movies, consider being a Patreon then you can join our Queer Movie Podcast Discord, where every month, we watch a new LGBTQ+ movie. We're about to go off and do one we're going to watch Ammonite which we're so excited to watch another lesbian period drama, it's going to be great.

ROWAN: Wow, the homophobia coming from me right now, Jazza is just so sad.

JAZZA: Period drama is not my thing and it's, it's fine. But yeah, if you support us on Patreon, not only do you get access to that Discord, but we also do a monthly newsletter for certain levels. We give you lists of other LGBTQ+ movies under particular genres that we do. It's a really good time, and you also get to support queer content on the internet.

ROWAN: And that's pretty great.

[theme]

ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast-related.

JAZZA: If you feel entertained, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patrons really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So sincerely, thank you. One of our perks on Patreon is a Queer Movie Watch Along every last Saturday of the month exclusively for our patrons hosted on our Discord. Gay fun really is had by all so come join us.

ROWAN: The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions so make sure you check out all of that other awesome podcasts full of both fun and frivolity.

JAZZA: Make sure you follow and subscribe to this here podcast so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you very much, my darlings. You will hear us very soon. Toodaloo.

ROWAN: Bye!

Transcriptionist: KM

Movies That Made Me Queer: Dr. Moiya McTier

7 juli 2022 | 58 min

Fire Island (Queer Jane Austen)

23 juni 2022 | 65 min

But I'm A Cheerleader (Queer Satire)

10 juni 2022 | 62 min

Heartstopper Special

26 maj 2022 | 43 min

Margarita with a Straw (Queer Disability)

12 maj 2022 | 77 min

Hot Takes with Aria Velz

28 april 2022 | 60 min

Brokeback Mountain (Queer Western)

14 april 2022 | 71 min

Hot Takes with Alex from AreTheyGay

31 mars 2022 | 50 min

Power of the Dog (Queer Oscars 2022)

17 mars 2022 | 66 min

Movies That Made Me Queer: Alex and Shivani

3 mars 2022 | 63 min

The Handmaiden (Queer Korea)

17 februari 2022 | 80 min

Hot Takes with Shaaba

3 februari 2022 | 43 min

The Vampire Lovers (Queer Horror)

20 januari 2022 | 73 min

This was nearly an episode about Lesbian Vampire Killers.

Instead, we we have chosen the 1970s vampiric gothic horror masterpiece, The Vampire Lovers starring Ingrid Pitt and Peter Cushing. Is it actually scary? Probably not, but vampires are inherently queer and this one is actually a lesbian!

This is a queer movie watch party for your ears, hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we take a look at the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to comedy classics - Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things queer on the silver screen!

New episodes every other Thursday.

Find Us on the Internet Super Highway

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

Transcript

[Intro Music]

JAZZA: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best.

ROWAN: And worst.

JAZZA: In LGBTQ+ cinema. One glorious genre at a time.

ROWAN: I'm Rowan Ellis.

JAZZA: And I'm Jazza John. Each episode we discuss a movie from a different genre of cinema.

ROWAN: This episode, genre is--

ROWAN & JAZZA: Queer Horror..

JAZZA: [vampire laugh]

ROWAN: Thanks, Jazza.

JAZZA: But, before we dive into this week's episode, Rowan, what's the gayest thing you've done since we last spoke?

ROWAN: Well, this is actually something that I've wanted to do for a long time. But every time I've tried to do it, there's been a It's not been available for me. And that is volunteering for a Queer Organization specifically for a Queer Youth Group or kind of youth mentoring organization, something like that. And there's, sadly not a lot of them in London, and a lot of them kind of were at capacity or weren't doing their services because of COVID. But at the beginning of the year, I applied and I've just found out today that I've been accepted, so I'm very excited. I've got to do some training, obviously, very soon, but yeah, I'm gonna get to do some mentoring.

JAZZA: It's gonna be so cool. And you're officially becoming a Queer Elder--

ROWAN: Oh my God.

JAZZA: --soon anyway, aren't you?

ROWAN: Yeah, I am.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: In a week's time, I will indeed hit 30 and therefore--

JAZZA: Good then.

ROWAN: --become an OAP.

JAZZA: Uh-huh. As a as a cis gay man, I stopped aging at 24. So let me know--

ROWAN: You never will reach that, yeah, I'll let you know what it's like.

JAZZA: Awesome. Thank you so much.

ROWAN: And Jazza, what's the gayest thing that you've done since we last spoke?

JAZZA: So recently, the UK started lifting lockdown restrictions, right? And we were able to have familiar relations again. I had relations with an individual and was able for the first time to actually complete a full session of prep. Do you know how prep works?

ROWAN: I was wondering where you were going with it. I was like, complete a full session of what?

JAZZA: Yeah, it's not session--

ROWAN: --[2:00] I was like a full, a full session of--

JAZZA: A full of [2:03] like a--

ROWAN: --[2:03] relations, you able to what?

JAZZA: I full cycle, a full cycle of [2:06].

ROWAN: Pretty you.

JAZZA: So I do have that you're able to get it on the NHS now. And it is for anybody who doesn't know a medication that prevents you from getting HIV. And how it works is you're meant to take it two hours before you have relations. And then afterwards you've had relations in order to properly protect yourself. In the past, I have only ever prepared to have the relations and never had to complete the whole cycle of prep.

ROWAN: Oh my God, that's the saddest thing I've ever heard, that's hilarious.

JAZZA: Is it.

ROWAN: You know what, that was excellent. That was a very good--

JAZZA: Thank you--

ROWAN: --gayest thing I've done since [2:42]--

JAZZA: Yeah yeah yeah. I feel like an actual adult now.

ROWAN: Look at you.

JAZZA: [2:45] yeah, look at me. Man in my 30s, finally able to look after myself.

ROWAN: Full disclosure to everyone listening, Jazza as he said that grinning like a little schoolboy does have a tiny gnome figurine right behi--as he said, I felt like such an adult. There is a tiny gnome figurine right behind him.

JAZZA: I'm an adult who collects plushies and plays D&D like these are--

ROWAN: You know what, fair enough.

JAZZA: Yeah, these are not things that are mutually exclusive.

ROWAN: Yeah, you know what, you're right.

[3:09]

[Transition Music]

JAZZA: The film we have chosen for today is the 1970s vampiric Gothic horror masterpiece. The Vampire Lovers, starring Ingrid Pitt, and the absolute legendary Peter Cushing. So without further ado, let's start nibbling away at Roy Ward Baker's, The Vampire Lovers.

ROWAN & JAZZA: [trumpet sound]

ROWAN: Are you anticipating some kind of like dramatic horror music [3:47]--

JAZZA: Yeah, in my head like it's the the title card.

ROWAN: Excellent.

JAZZA: I actually, vampire [3:53].

ROWAN: I know we just said that we were going to go straight into talking about the history of the genre and the--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --context of it. But I just also need everyone to know not to make this the call out Jazza Podcast. But--

JAZZA: It it already is.

ROWAN: --I came up with a whole list of, honestly, iconic wonderful, queer horror movies have come out. Especially some in the last few years. Because we have had an absolute amazing blossoming of queer horror within the last few years. I came up with an amazing shortlist. Jazza, came up with a movie that I immediately vetoed. That is the movie lesbian Vampire Killers.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Which has James--

ROWAN: Which has--

JAZZA: Corden in it.

ROWAN: --James Corden in it, is therefore I hate crime. And I immediately vetoed it. And then the list Jazza went through the list and it. Basically the secret came out that Jazza is a massive baby. And essentially would just was not able to watch an actual horror movie. And so--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --we have watched this movie, which is, horror in the most technical sense of the word.

JAZZA: No, but it's like, it's it's a lot of foundations of horror, like, like it's a classic Gothic, lots of dark cobwebby castles. Lots of screen Queens, a couple of screen Kings.

ROWAN: Yes, every element of horror except the bit where it's scary, which I think suited Jazza just fine.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: I think that was--

JAZZA: 100%

ROWAN: --that was, I think he's very pleased with himself that he managed to get this. Because the other, we watched some of the trailers together. And there were a few trailers that Jazz stopped halfway through and went, "Oh, yes, I think we get the idea." And then, and it was very obvious why.

JAZZA: Apparently, I'm quite good to watch horror movies with. Just know that if you ever watch a a legitimate horror movie with me, that is actually scary. I'm not having a nice time. And you know what, in this podcast that I am lucky enough to have with you, Rowan. I want to have a nice time, you know? And I don't think that's too much to ask.

ROWAN: Okay, well, when we connect, spend actual time together, maybe I'll just I'll be like, oh, yeah, let's watch this nice little, like animated children's movie and then just slip in a horror movie instead. You could just hold onto my hand.

JAZZA: Maybe next year's Halloween, we can have a special episode again. And you couldn't actually scare the hell out of me, it will be good.

ROWAN: Yeah, if everyone could just audio clip Jazza, just then essentially promising on his on his firstborn son that he will watch a horror movie with me, that'd be great. So I know that Jazza, you've done normally when we watch these movies, we do a little bit of context. And then we talk to each other and go, oh, wait, shit, did we do the same context maybe hopefully, we looked up different bits of trivia otherwise is going to be very boring for both of us. And luckily, we had kind of done a mix. So I know that you've looked up Hammer Horror, which is the kind of studio and very specific niche genre that this particular movie is in. So would you like to tell me about it? I'm ready to learn.

JAZZA: Yeah yeah yeah, so a Hammer, also great name, Hammer Productions. They were a production house in the UK, who were famous for bringing a lot of classic horror from the black and white era of the 1930s into color. We making a lot of the classics like Frankenstein, Dracula, The Mummy, etc. Remaking them into color movies for audiences throughout the 1950s and 60s. The other thing that they were very well known for doing is having a butt ton of sequels for everything. So this particular movie that we're doing. The Vampire Lovers, has two sequels to it. Lust for a Vampire, released the following year, and then Twins of Evil. Which as far as I have been able to find out on the Wikipedia page was just kind of like the same plot two more times, but with different actors. But to be fair, if the punters are going to go and watch it, then why not right? The reason the The Vampire Lovers itself is quite interesting, and is that a little bit of a tipping point in terms of cinema, is because it was towards the end of the strictness of the Hays Code in the US, which is a piece of us legislation that was very tight collared, around the depictions of sex, nudity, deviant acts like homosexuality.

ROWAN: I'm gonna be annoying and interrupt here is the Queer Film Historian bitch on this podcast. Because I think it's genuinely interesting. It wasn't technically a piece of like Governmental Legislation as such, it was a code that was self-imposed by Hollywood on itself, specifically, because they thought that the government will be even more harsh, so they were like, oh, shit, like, let let's just, we promise no titties, no gays, no, no--

JAZZA: No titties, no gays.

ROWAN: [8:39] for gays, we promise. And and so yeah, no, it's it's a, it's one of those kind of really interesting things actually happened with the comic, comic books as well, the Comic Code Authority happened as well.

JAZZA: Mmm.

ROWAN: A lot of industries at the time were like, well, I guess if someone's gonna do it, it might as well be us, to ourselves.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Yeah yeah yeah. And this was kind of like, towards the end of the prolific nature of the Hays Code. And it was still actually really hard to get this past the censors. The Vampire Lovers, which obviously, is pretty gay. There's naked ladies and there's titties absolutely everywhere. And there's also a man who dies while he's having a piss. So it's not really kind of like the highest brow of entertainment. But the reason that they were able to get especially the the gay shit through the censors, even at the time as they were expanding. Was because it was based on the original source text from the 1800s, Carmilla, which is like a classic text. And because it's seen as a classic text, they were like, actually, this is basically Shakespeare. I don't think anybody actually said that. But essentially, that's how they managed to to get around it.

ROWAN: Just being true to the original.

JAZZA: Yeah yeah, exactly. But yeah, we're watching a a movie about lesbian vampires. Of course, there's going to be a little bit of a camper and Gothic horror is always just a little bit of camp. But it's also a really interesting moment in kind of like the attitudes of prudishness, that were in Hollywood throughout the 50s and 60s.

ROWAN: Absolutely. I do, I do agree with you like Hammer Horror is just camp, it's just campy. Like it just has that energy to it in general--

JAZZA: It is now.

ROWAN: --and I think as well like well, we'll talk about this when we're actually talking about the plot and the performances and stuff in the next section. But yeah, the acting of the time was not exactly the most based in like realism. And and I think that that style of acting that was popular then I think just is so imbued with camp--

JAZZA: Uh-huh.

ROWAN: --as you look back on it now. Even if this hadn't had a load of vampires in it, I feel like it still would have felt a little bit--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --kind of queer energy.

JAZZA: A 100%. It reminded me an awful lot of like Ryan Murphy guy.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah.

JAZZA: Which obviously is referential to this era of horror. And I was like, Oh, I 100% understand where all of these references now come from in, like our modern media as well. Rowan, you had, a you also went away and did some of your own research you clever bookworm slash website were around like, vampires, sexuality, all of those things. Would you end up fine, come on, show and tell.

ROWAN: Well, basically, for those for those who don't know about the history of the vampire, it's kind of appears in a lot of different folktales and legends around different places. Just I think the idea of someone who needs to drain other people of their blood, which is very much linked to like, you know, lifeforce in a lot of cultures. It makes sense that there will be kind of mythology around that, and and kind of scary tales, and all that kind of thing. But it kind of didn't necessarily get a kind of literary grounding until the early 1800s. Were John Polidori, wrote The Vampyre, which was actually created kind of as part of the sort of Gothic horror writing contest that also produced, Frankenstein. It was a good, it was a good time that they were having in that rainy manor house. And kind of interestingly, the history of vampires, I think, has not necessarily been, obviously in the mainstream link to queerness. But when you start looking into the history of it, it's a lot of like reading between the lines when it's going on. So, for example, that original text of Vampyre, a lot of people kind of thought that potentially the that kind of central character was based on Lord Byron. There was a bit of a mix up as to who had originally written the tale. And it was attributed Lord Byron originally and then kind of had to be redacted. And so you kind of have this element of like, oh, there's this creeping queerness in there. And that only became like, more intensified when it came to Dracula, which came a bit later. Because again, Bram Stoker, lots of rumors about him being gay, he had a very close relationship with Oscar Wilde. He wrote some frankly, adoring love letters to Walt Whitman, really, really, very gay letters to Walt Whitman. And there are just some quotes that come up in the book that feel very much like they are centered around the kind of repressed, a repressed homosexuality--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --shall we say. A lot of people have pointed out the fact that he basically started to write Dracula very, very soon after Oscar Wilde's trial and conviction. And that there was potentially a link between that and like the anxieties of being this like queer man who was worried about being like, discovered. So obviously, as with much of queer history, it is not provable. But I do think it's very interesting. And it's something a lot of people have have talked about. But yeah, I think vampire stories in general, as well as being kind of horror, obviously have a lot of links to the idea of sexuality, and and sexual anxieties, I guess over the years.

JAZZA: When we're looking at this area as well. It's really difficult to kind of like put the gay label on it. Because it wasn't a term that they used for themselves--

ROWAN: No.

JAZZA: --either, but we're just kind of trying to view it for our own lens.

ROWAN: Yeah, exactly. So in Dracula, for example, you've got Lucy, the character of Lucy, who's this kind of like symbol of the new woman. So kind of more independent and breaking free of the constraints of society, especially sexual constraints. And so if she sort of gives herself or is compromised by this kind of foreign invader, then she becomes this corrupted figure, which is very, you know, if you read through the lines, metaphorically, it's very much a sort of like fallen woman virginity loss kind of situation. And then yeah, I mean, spoiler alert for Dracula, but she ends up being staked by like, all of the men who she had been pursuing at one point or another during the story, and dies--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --this death that's very, like writhing around and bleeding, and it's very kind of like, you know, symbolically resonant in a lot of ways. So yeah, I think I think that like even if you come to Twilight, or to more modern depictions of vampires, it doesn't necessarily have a Victorians lens of sexuality. It has a modern lens, but it's still feels like it might be commenting in some way. So there's a lot more sort of, in the vampire as the romantic lead for women's or like girls fiction, it becomes much more about a man who needs to control his natural impulses, and that he's able to do it for you. The female love interest.

JAZZA: That's the Twilight stuff isn't?

ROWAN: Exactly.

JAZZA: I'll be honest, I wasn't even I wasn't even making that link in like, I feel like Twilight is such a long time ago now.

ROWAN: Ancient history.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah. But like, seriously, but yeah, I didn't even make that link of kind of like sexual request-ness. But then I haven't really read, I haven't read any of the Twilight books, I've only seen the movie. So maybe that's why it's not at the front of my mind.

ROWAN: Well, allegedly Stephenie Meyer did come up with the idea from some kind of romantically charged dream that she had. And she is quite from quite a religious background. So I think that the sexual repression and morality element to it is, it's not has not been not commented on by people in the past. So yeah, so I definitely think that the vampire legend and mythology and stuff has always had links to sex in some way and to that kind of forbidden element of sex. And I think that that only gets more apparent when you talk about sex that is genuinely forbidden and taboo in the way that kind of same gender relationships might be. So yeah, it completely makes sense, lesbian vampires completely make sense on a literary level. And it very much is not just a kind of, ohhh, she's sexy, and she's a lesbian, and she's a vampire. It's like, oh, there is actually some kind of literary backing to making this a a thing in your films.

JAZZA: Did you have because I accidentally came across this while I was looking through stuff around the source material for The Vampire Lovers, which is like a a vampire novel that predates Dracula by a couple of decades called Carmilla. About a lesbian female vampire. And apparently she's based on this Hungarian, I believe she's a Princess. She's a fancy person, uhm, called Elizabeth Boothroyd. Have you seen her a bit about her?

ROWAN: If this is who I think it is? Yeah, I think she married into a family and got an absolute ton of land and power from it and use that to allegedly just kill a lot of servant girls, and some minor nobility.

JAZZA: Some set I don't think we have to say allegedly anymore. This was in like the the 15, 16 [16:54]--

ROWAN: She's not gonna [16:55]--

JAZZA: [16:56] I think we're gonna get sued by Elizabeth III of Hungary fame, but she apparently killed up to 650 people and there was some people who say that she used to bathe in their blood to maintain like youth? Some of this is urban legends now, and there's some people that say that she inspired because she was from the Kingdom of Hungary. Which at that time included, Slovakia and Romania, which is kind of like the part of the world that is where like, vampiric culture comes from, I guess? And some people even suggest that she inspired Carmilla and Dracula. But yeah, like, it's an interesting part of kind of like also the, the empowered woman as well, which was definitely, I mean, deviant for the time that vampire novels became really, really big in the Victorian era. But certainly for like the 1500-1600s when she was alive, as well. And kind of like the fear and the weariness of the empowered, maybe sexualized women as well. I kind of like themes that run through this type of horror too.

ROWAN: Indeed, without I guess, should we go into talking about the actual movie and how the lesbian vampires sort of displays herself.

JAZZA: Displays herself.

ROWAN: Displays herself in this movie

JAZZA: Sometimes literally displays herself--

ROWAN: Quite literally.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

[18:15]

[Transition Music]

[18:15]

[ADS]

JAZZA: Dear listener, there's only so many times you can lean on your ability to make a [18:25] gin and tonic. Trust me, I've had the headaches to prove it. Sometimes you need to shake up your drinks trolley, pun intended, and shaker and spoon subscription cocktail box is the perfect way to do that. Each box they send you contains enough ingredients to make three different cocktails with your favorite Spirits. All you need is to buy your own bottle and then you have all you need to craft 12 cocktails at home. It's between 40 and 50 of your American dollars every month, excluding the price of the bottle you buy. So is a sensible way to expand your drinking palette. You can even skip boxes or cancel whenever you like, my darlin'. Imagine if you will, clowning around some popcorn with your loved ones and a fancy cocktail in hand. Enjoying your own Queer Movie Night. Yes, you too, can experience what we experienced together here on this podcast. We support you. And don't forget to get $20 off your first box by going to shakerandspoon.com/queermovie, that's shakerandspoon.com/queermovie. Queer Movie Podcast is part of Multitude which is like a cool little collective of creatives. We like to give our audio siblings a shout out every now and again. And I'm very excited to recommend to you X0 Law. In case you haven't noticed yet, Rowan and I are big nerds. Rowan has her Disney and D&D, I have my love of Final Fantasy in the expanse novels. So this podcast is like catnip to us. Dr. Moyer McTeer is the host and as the coolest job description of Astrophysicist and folklorist. Which honestly, has made wondering what I've been doing with my life. Each episode she goes through the how to of fictional world creation, meaning you can apply her findings to any and all creative projects that you yourself are working on. Are you creating a home route for your D&D table? Are you scribbling away on your first Sci-fi novel? Do you find this stuff interesting? That's fine, too. Honestly, it's necessary educational listening. I had a particularly fun time listening to Moyer and guest Clark Robinson go through the mechanics of building a world magic system. And I think you'll find it interesting too. So go give X0 Law a listen, and tell the doctor we sent you. Now, back to the show.

[21:02]

[Transition Music]

ROWAN: So we normally split this into three different parts.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: We haven't conferred beforehand about what those parts are going to look like for this particular movie. But I have a feeling that we have a very similar thru line.

JAZZA: Hmm.

ROWAN: The first part I have referred to, because there was only one way we could refer to this part, given that in so many other films that we have covered in our previous episodes. This was also the title of a section of the film.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: The Party and its Aftermath.

JAZZA: Yeah. 100% It starts with the party and its aftermath. It's very all interesting things start with a party, as does this movie.

ROWAN: Yeah, for some reason, so many stories. Normally, the party in its aftermath is the last act.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: Whereas in this one, it's, it's the first so essentially, what happens at the beginning of this movie is that we have this man who's narrating talking about the fact that his sister has died and he is going on this revenge plot. Castle ruins, evil European family, some very helpful vampire lore up front. He lets us--

JAZZA: Uh-huh.

ROWAN: know you got to decapitate them. You got a stake in through the heart. We're getting a lot of exposition, but you know what, that's just how he rolls.

JAZZA: It was quick. It was quick and acceptable. I feel like you know, for [22:20]--

ROWAN: Ding, ding, ding! Here we go.

JAZZA: But also, is anyone gonna come into something called The Vampire Lovers, cold as to what a vampire is.

ROWAN: Unlikely.

JAZZA: Like, I feel like most people are probably gonna know broadly, what a vampire is and how you kill it.

ROWAN: Exactly. So it's it's the classic star of the vampire killer is here. He's narrating to us what's about to happen. We have a very fast zoom in on a guy's neck with fang bites. The camera angles and uses within this movie are just very intense. They really love a good zoom in, dramatic zoom in. They really like a good kind of interesting shots, shall we say throughout this. Which I did, did think heighten the camp element. But with, yeah, very quintessential have a horror stuff. The evil figure of the vampire looked like I would say a Halloween sheet ghost costume, mixed with a Dementor.

JAZZA: Oh, well, you have ruined that now. I thought it looks like really quite impressive.

ROWAN: I did as well. Yeah, no, that isn't to diminish how--

JAZZA: Okay, cool.

ROWAN: --creepy it did look.

JAZZA: Cool. I think that is an accurate description of what it was dressed as to be fair.

ROWAN: Yeah, I was like, you know what, if people aren't going to go back and watch this movie, if they're just listening this to to hear a little bit about lesbian vampires. I want to paint them a picture. And the picture is--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --a teenager. You know what I'm going to build on this picture. The picture is a teenager who has been asked by their parents to take out their little kid sister and the local sisters friends trick or treating at Halloween. He obviously is too cool for Halloween costumes at this point. He's at that age where it's not cool again. And it's it's, it was cool when he was a kid but he's like, he's he's 15 now, yeah? So he is like, "Urgh, fine!" And he goes into the airing covered and he just gets a sheet and he's like, "Are you happy now?" And he cuts it lies in the sheets. He doesn't care. It's that mix with a Dementor?

JAZZA: Uh-hmm, and lace.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: There was lots of lakes.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Yeah,

ROWAN: If you just put that in your head. You've seen him, you can imagine it.

JAZZA: Yeah, 100%. I also love the like beyond just the vampire and the fact that it is a bedsheet. I love the rest of the costuming in this movie, but especially our narrator and the fact that he's there with kind of like his large Bejeweled ring, long sideburns and kind of like ruffled lace cuffs as well. And as he's got kind of got his hand up to his face in shock like, "Huh?!!", you see the rough come out of his sleeve. oh, and it's quite beautiful. It's it's beautiful [24:53], I love it. And all of that coupled with like the artificial fog on the clearly papier-mâché castle. The fake IV and the fact that it's all moonlit night time. I loved it. I was here for it. I felt like I was on a movie set because I was.

ROWAN: Oh yeah, I've completely agree with you there. My note that I made for this section was for a movie about lesbian vampires. We're getting a lot of this random dude.

JAZZA: Who disappears for--

ROWAN: He disappears--

JAZZA: --the rest of the movie, by the way.

ROWAN: --for most of the rest of the movie, he comes back at the end.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Yeah, and comes back at the very end to ruin it with men.

ROWAN: Yes, well, I mean, what we don't want to give you any spoilers right now. You're gonna get spoilers in approximately how many minutes and take hours to get to the end act. The other note I made was vampire girl is cute and blonde has very shiny hair, please drop the routine. So I was thinking--

JAZZA: I think, I think it's being, I think, I think the routine is being immortal.

ROWAN: You know what? That makes sense, that checks out. I will say, and we kind of briefly talked about this before we started to record. But the the effects were really good. The there's a computation that happens at this point, and genuinely very, very good special effects, very well-practical effects.

JAZZA: Yeah, like they had Madame Tussaud's head being like, cut off loads of blood everywhere. I laughed when the vampire was killed at the beginning of the movie. I'm sure people in 1970 may have been genuinely shocked. It's--

ROWAN: Mmm.

JAZZA: --really difficult for me to put myself in the mindset of somebody in the 1970s.

ROWAN: I don't know whether someone in the 1970s didn't I I think they understood what movies were, Jazza. Like I don't think that they were that gonna be that shocked? I think.

JAZZA: It's not quite like in the 1920s when they first showed people a train covered [26:45]--

ROWAN: Yeah and they ran away.

JAZZA: --and people ran out of the movie. Yeah, yeah yeah.

ROWAN: No, I think that, I think that there was like, it was campy back then it was campy now. It was very much, yeah, my favorite bit of this whole big very, very beginning section before we get to the party, is the disclaimer. Because it goes from this section. It's like a good cold open if, you know, this guy's a vampire hunters. He's a eventing a sister, this is woman who's going around trying to kill people. We get some some of him explaining how to kill a vampire. And we also get her just being really really scared of a cross so you know, ohh, that bit of laws also correct. But once when the kind of credits start to roll at the beginning, there is a disclaimer that any characters or events portrayed are clearly fictitious, which definitely feels like something real vampires making a movie would say.

JAZZA: You saying, are we gonna have to make keep our eye out for more evidence that these are actual vampires making actual movies?

ROWAN: Is Peter Cushing a vampire? Who can tell?

JAZZA: Actually, you know what? He was somehow invoke one, so--

ROWAN: He does have the vibes.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: So then we get to the actual party, which is so aggressively 60s in its hair, makeup and clothing.

JAZZA: Oh my god, the eyeliner?

ROWAN: It's incredible.

JAZZA: --the eyeliner. I was taking notes for my drag character. Like I am doing cat eyes from now on.

ROWAN: I would honestly love to see you as a in drag as a lesbian vampire. I feel like that will be beautiful.

JAZZA: Hey, just you weren't into Halloween this year.

ROWAN: It'll happen. Also in in in, again, with the over the top style acting the over the top style props and stuff. I'm not gonna lie to you, there is no way that you could watch this film with the sound on and not know who the baddies are. Because the music, really is not subtle. There is no no subtleties to this music, you very quickly know who is you're meant to find menacing. Which they needed to do because the acting is so wooden. It's really trying to like give you something give you some indication because the characters are basically just standing around without expressions.

JAZZA: And also like makeup. So you assume that the man who clearly has a inch of white stick on his face. You assume that he is the bad guy vampire, because he turns up has a flowy cape and is whiter than I am.

ROWAN: Uhmm.

JAZZA: Which is saying something.

ROWAN: Now's a good time to point out this man. So basically the plot of the party is there's like, well, there's not much but essentially it's just an excuse for our lead lesbian vampire to turn up. And for her, we assume lesbian vampire mother to, I don't know why I said lesbian, specifically of. Mainly, we can assume she's a vampire. She might also be a lesbian, it's unconfirmed. Kind of drops her off and is like, Oh no, who will look after my daughter while I conveniently have to go away.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: And they're like, well, I guess we'll look after her. So this whole party is essentially setting up, that she's gonna have to stay with this family for a little while. But every so often interspersed is just the aforementioned man that Jazza has just briefly described. Who just has a very bad like white face paint makeup on and looks very Draculary and just sort of grins a lot. And he's just never explained the entire movie, it's great.

JAZZA: Yeah, and every now and again, throughout the movie, there will be a shot of the lesbian vampires doing lesbian vampire things, And then that will cast away as a transition to a silhouette of the man with the white face on the on the horse. And I'm like, this movie wants us to believe that this this, I assume that, we know he is a vampire. He's confirmed to be a vampire at the end, because he smiles and has the--

ROWAN: It's canon.

JAZZA: Yeah, it's canon. But he is confirmed to be a vampire. And I'm like, are we to believe that he is the one pulling the strings of everything? I think that's what we're meant to believe. In which case I kind of dislike because part of the thing that I loved about this movie was the women leads and women like the middle section of the movie is just the women kind of like conversing and trying to kill one another. Why does there have to be a male puppet, puppet master? But then I realized, or, like shoot this down Rowan, and I'm sure you will if you if you do think it is shit.

ROWAN: Pew, pew.

JAZZA: Pew pew. He's Dracula, right?

ROWAN: Well, okay, so it's this question of like, the Dracula character is so well-known and so iconic in everything about him. Not necessarily the actual original Dracula from the book because most depictions of Dracula are nothing like him. But the image of him that has been created by Hollywood by movies and by kind of not even just urban legends. But like people's people's imagination from from movies and like physical--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --representations of him. So I think it will be very logical to assume that it was meant to be Dracula. But it's it may be it's just because he is so synonymous with vampires we see. If we saw any vampire that looked vaguely like old timey pale skin, we would maybe assume it was Dracula.

JAZZA: But then who else is it going to be? Like, so Carmilla is our titular vampire lover.

ROWAN: uh-hmm.

JAZZA: And apart from Dracula, like obviously, they're originally from different universes from different books. They are--

ROWAN: Different cinematic universes.

JAZZA: Yeah yeah. This this is like Marvel and DC.

ROWAN: Most ambitious crossover, The Vampire Lovers.

JAZZA: But if it's going to be anybody, I feel like it has to be Dracula.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Because, I feel like nobody else is gonna be calling the shots for Carmilla.

ROWAN: Uhmm.

JAZZA: And even arguably, you'd argue that Carmilla wouldn't be like canonically in the book. She wouldn't be taking any direction from no man. But--

ROWAN: Indeed.

JAZZA: So we should probably introduce Carmilla, our main lesbian vampire.

ROWAN: At this point going by Marcilla--

JAZZA: Marci--

ROWAN: --in an extremely clever, different version of her name.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: It's not it was like it was a fake name, but it was just weirdly close to her actual name.

JAZZA: It's a little bit too close, right? So she is played by Ingrid Pitt, who is a Polish-British Actress, and her Wikipedia page, incredibly impressive. She is a Holocaust survivor. Did you know that?

ROWAN: I didn't. It's really, I mean, the Hammer Horror, I know that we're kind of taking the mick out of it. But ultimately, they it has produced some incredibly iconic, especially British Actors and Actresses.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: A lot of them were in like, a ton of those very specific Hammer Horror movies and like, very much became, like icons because of it. So I didn't know that about her. But we love to learn.

JAZZA: Yes, she's a, she was a a a Polish Jew and was born 1937 was in a concentration camp in, in Poland. Managed to escape to the UK. And then what it was the era when all of the all of Hollywood were kind of like marrying like seven or eight times. She's had several marriages, she's not had seven or eight, she's had three marriages. But what had the whole classic thing of you know what, I'm just going to become an Actress. Moved to Hollywood, was a waitress for years until she got discovered. And I've got to say, I think that she carries the rest of the cast, I will say including, Peter Cushing.

ROWAN: How dare you, sir.

JAZZA: I I mean, this is one of his performances. There are other things that he's done better. But she carries this whole movie on her shoulders, I think Ingrid Pitt. I think that she is not, she's not so camp, that it makes it funny. But she really ups the energy, like throughout the film in all of the scenes and the development of her character.

ROWAN: Yeah, I agree. So I I kind of made a note about this, I think that you can see within her fighting to get out is some complexity around Carmilla. To the point where I like kept thinking it was going to be discussed in some way. So what essentially happens as I mentioned at the party, we it's it's a mechanism for Carmilla and Laura to become friends and have to stay together in the house.

JAZZA: Uhm.

ROWAN: Laura, basically slowly starts losing her mind. She starts suffering from nightmares that she's being attacked by this giant cat. She screams a lot. Oh, boy, do they love to scream in this.

JAZZA: I love it so much.

ROWAN: It's I, okay, I'm going to give you another metaphor for the scream. The scream is like, the scream that you get in a high school movie. When a teenager has been punked by their younger brother. And their hair, like their hair has been dyed green. And they look directly into the mirror that is also directly into the camera and they take a deep breath and then they scream. And then the camera zooms out, like to the house and into the like country and then a load of--

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah yeah.

ROWAN: --birds like flutter out of trees. That's the vibe--

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: --from every scream and there's multiple in this particular movie.

JAZZA: Well I love Rowan is that we're very quickly realizing that this season of recording review podcasts, all of your references are going to be to team trash moments. Like that's--

ROWAN: Yeah, the best of all genres. Other than horror, but I know that you can't handle that, obviously. So I decided to [35:37]--

JAZZA: [35:37] lead by you.

ROWAN: So yeah, this is very kind of classic Gothic idea of like, slowly trying to figure out like, what's real? What's not real? Did I might actually being attacked? This is a nightmare. Has someone caused me to feel this way? And while this is happening, we get this very intense kind of friendship going on between these two women. I think there's literally an an exchange or one of them says I shall die when you leave. And the other is like, I shall never leave you. And then they do kissy kiss, kiss kiss.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: But what's also really interesting to me, which I actually feel like I still see a lot in lesbian movies is that there is no actual relationship development. Which makes sense in this film, because it's like supernatural allure, right? It's like her being like, I'm just this lesbian vampire. And so you're gonna fall for me, even though we literally have never had a conversation properly. Like, we never see that on screen. But I often see that to my mind, at least in lesbian movies. Especially the like historic lesbian movies, where they just really love to bank on the idea of like the repressed women trope. And so they're like, we don't have to have them have conversations and talk about things because they've repressed, right? They just sort of inexplicably now want to kiss. There's no build up and nothing and no discussions. And so I was like, at least here it makes sense. Canonically with the idea of her having this like sexual allure to her victims.

JAZZA: Yeah, it kind of does. I I I will, and this is something that people smarter than me have talked about, about Carmilla the original text from the 1800s. Where she juxtaposes with a character like Dracula, because Carmilla actually seems to genuinely fall in love with the people that she ends up killing, alternative vampires. And I felt like Pitt's depiction of the, she was really good at kind of like, I believed that she really did care for these young women that she ended up, spoiler, kills.

ROWAN: Uhm. Yeah, completely agree. There's these, there are just these moments where she's the character on her own like, and she suddenly has this look of like, deep grief or deep sadness or deep like confliction in her. And I'm like, oh, if this wasn't a Hammer Horror, like I, this same story could be played out. And we really could have dug into the idea of like, I need to do this to survive, or like I cannot, this is what I was meant to do. Like, I've been living for hundreds of years. And this is what's always happened. But this is like, mentally horrific. And I feel like there's some interesting like vampire media that does explore this idea of like, what do you do if you just keep on living? And you have to hurt people in order to survive, like, what does that look like? That and see, or--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --seeing that conflict of someone who has fallen for someone for that, for real for the first time. That previously it hadn't been things like, these things are really interesting to explore, not where this film is going. Another spoiler alert gang, there there is no complex comes, the biggest complexity is this very specific look that we have interpreted from an actress who was not given anything else in the script to work with.

JAZZA: Yeah. Shall we just say this up before? Up the [38:37]--

ROWAN: We shout.

JAZZA: --out for that. The script is not this movie's strong point.

ROWAN: Uhm. Yeah, if you couldn't have told that already. I feel like we've really hinted quite heavily at it, so far.

JAZZA: Yes.

ROWAN: But yeah, so the end of this first section is essentially, Laura is bitten. She has these fang bites on her. She she dies, and Marcilla is like, Bye!!!

JAZZA: Yeah, disappears.

ROWAN: I'm out of here, baby.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: And so we get to our second section.

[39:04]

[Transition Music]

JAZZA: So that first section has basically, it's the bullet point version of what's going to happen next with a new girl, essentially.

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

JAZZA: That's what going to happen--

ROWAN: Yes, that's exactly. That's exactly it.

JAZZA: Like this is what Carmilla does. She is parachuted in convolutedly to be, to befriend a young woman in a manor house. And then gradually over time, kills her, while terrorizing the local peasantry as well. Because every now and again we'll have like a peasant washer woman running through the forest. Who then stumbles falls and then screams and does the as you said, that [scream] kind of moment.

ROWAN: Wonderful impression. Yes.

JAZZA: Thank you. I'm conscious of of peeking the mic. Otherwise, I would delete, you know, I [39:52]--

ROWAN: Oh, yeah. No, I know you would. So this one we get a little more titillation, though. Like we functionally you're right, it's exactly the same story. But we do get a little more titillation. So we have like Emma comes into Carmilla's room. Welcome in there is just naked in the bath, and just has a casual conversation about--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --the dresses that they're going to wear and Carmilla's like, you should take everything off for you try on this dress, because it ruins the shape to have underwear on. And she's like, oh, okay, like there's literally no reason for the scene apart from for the audience have like this kind of sex and fear and horror and campaign nudity and like all this stuff coming together in in the way that it's often does. So even at that point, I was like, oh, this is ridiculous. And then they start chasing each other around while topless in, what I genuinely think might be the most unconvincing chase scene in all of cinema.

JAZZA: It's kind of like when you see if the like, in in maybe a more modern movie where two women have been asked to, do a pillow fight and and it's sexy. Just trust me, it's sexy. All the way through this second conquest of Carmilla of Emma's character who is this the wide idiot, frankly.

ROWAN: Yeah, she does have a type doesn't she?

JAZZA: Yeah yeah. Oh my God, I didn't even think of it like that. But yeah yeah, though I did it. But she like I I I found myself questioning all the way through kind of like this moment of undressing and Ooh, tits or bear ass, you know. I don't want and can you answer this for me? Is this sexy?

ROWAN: Well as a sexual lesbian, Jazza, I don't really, I I'm both highly qualified and utterly unqualified to answer that question--

JAZZA: Which is--

ROWAN: --no, not in my mind. But I think as well it's it's it's that I think that the sexiness with this release, I don't know maybe there's probably some lesbians that are just like, yes, tits. But I think, like, we have them, we know what they look like. So it's kind of like, what did someone else I feel like it's the connection that that--

JAZZA: Made that that logic. I just, I just want to put this out there that logic does not--

ROWAN: Not, no, that's fair enough.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: But it is this thing of like, there is literally no feeling of connection between them during that chase scene. Like, I think there are other bits where there's more like when they're doing this sort of hypnotizes seductressy bit that like, feels like they're--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --slightly monstering chemistry. But like, that scene where they're chasing each other around could not have been--

JAZZA: Less sexy.

ROWAN: --less sexy, if it tried like it just in an embarrassing kind of way that's like, Oh, God, I guess I'm watching this now, this is happening. Because I do think as well, it is like, it is very funny to me, because I think immediately just reminds me of the super, the super cliche to the point where it's almost become a meme thing that happens with gay male characters in movies. And in porn as well, where they, they kind of have a like, they're sort of play fighting, and then suddenly, it's like, oh, no, now we are on top of each other and it is sexual.

JAZZA: Uh-huh.

ROWAN: Like--

JAZZA: CRGBF episode.

ROWAN: Yeah, it's like it's it's such a trope. And it's so funny that it kind of like this was like, even less convincing than those things. I was really interested to see, because this was on so many sort of, like, you know, classic queer movie lists. But typically movies that are this old, you don't really have the actual canonical confirmation in any way. And you definitely do in this movie, like they, they really have it up and although it does fall into the trope, we'll talk about in a second about like, kind of the evil lesbian trope. It's supernatural and over the top and kind of didn't mind it in that way. But yeah, once again, Emma starts having nightmares. Start screaming, everyone else kind of goes away on like, the day goes away on business. She has a suitor, but he's not you know, it's it's in the olden times. So he doesn't really come--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --around all the time. He just occasionally, he'll turn up. But we'll be do have it's a little bit different is the kind of Governess character--

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: --like Mme. Perrodot, who's kind of like becomes this accomplice to Carmilla. Because she's just seducing everyone.

JAZZA: I love Carmilla and The Governess. And I want them to go away and have a home with the what was the cat's name? Gustav.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah, you know what--

JAZZA: I want to--

ROWAN: --you're right.

JAZZA: --go move to a cottage in the Romanian countryside and just live with Gustav. Because, uhm, so as well as seducing Emma, Carmilla begins seducing and killing all of the peasantry around the mansion. Carmilla begins to seduce The Governess. And that is when it does get sexy. And I was like, oh, all of a sudden there actually feels like there is chemistry between these two women. And I thought that Carmilla had turned The Governess into a vampire? But it turns out that she doesn't that The Governess is just have familia and just really fancy is the pants off of Carmilla.

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

JAZZA: And to be fair with an ass like that.

ROWAN: I mean, who can blame her?

JAZZA: Mmm.

ROWAN: But yeah, that's an interesting thing here. Again, I'll come back to when we talk about lesbian trips versus exchange that happens between Emma and Carmilla about, you know, I love you. I don't want anyone taking you away from me and Emma being like, we'll always be friends. She's like, no, it's not the same thing, it's different. I want you to love me for all your life. Like it's very much the idea of like Carmilla is the predatory, kind of obsessive like actual lesbian. And then you have this like poor innocent Emma who didn't didn't understand what was happening. Like--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --she didn't know that that was what was going on in the mind of this perverted lesbian vampire.

JAZZA: I sometimes also get the the feeling that Carmilla was a bit of a like the lesbian version of a nagging dude, bro. Like she keeps on telling, telling Emma there's, ahh you talk such nonsense. Like, getting really defensive about the way that she feels about funerals, for example.

ROWAN: Oh, bloody he hates funerals.

JAZZA: Completely gaslights, Emma about like the bite marks on her being from a brooch and not from anything else.

ROWAN: Yeah, truly Carmilla is the gaslight, gatekeeper, girlboss of all, of all [46:00]--

JAZZA: That is, that is the classification that we needed. Thank you very much, Rowan, I appreciate it.

ROWAN: I don't know if you had anything else to say about this section. Cuz I think the third section is like the boys are back in town.

JAZZA: Oh, I called the third section. Lesbian Vampire Killers.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah. You know what, that also works very well.

[46:16]

[Transition Music]

ROWAN: This is essentially when all of the guys and tada like, hey, I don't know whether you've noticed how every woman is dying in the local area by having their blood drained. But I think there may be foul play at work.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Can I just say the men, they have been practically no men having speaking parts in this movie, for like a good 50% of the middle part of it. The first 25% is Carmilla and the aftermath party. And then we have 50% of just women. seducing one another and being hot. And--

ROWAN: And Gustav, the cat.

JAZZA: --and, and Gustav, the cat, of course. So I won't forget Gustav, the cat. And then these men come in. And I'll be completely honest, I forgotten who most of them were.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah, I fully could not remember any of these men were.

JAZZA: And what their relationships were with the women previously. So it is all of the aggrieved men who have been affected by cumulus murdering. So it is the father of Laura who she killed in act one. It is the suitor of Emma, who--

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

JAZZA: --at this point is going through the stages of death as well. And also the father of Emma as well, who has just come back from business.

ROWAN: Ooh, and surprised that guy from the beginning who who was narrating.

JAZZA: Oh, sure, the guy of the sideburns.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: [47:52] caps.

ROWAN: [47:52] there's also just randomly like, there's a Doctor, there's a butler, there's a landlord.

JAZZA: Yeah, all of these men that, I'll be honest movie I didn't I don't care about and I feel like it wanted us to root for the men because they're the ones who are like injustice. And I was like, now I know that Carmilla is going around and killing all of these doe wide dumb women. But I'm on her side, I'll be completely honest. And I kind of want the men to leave them alone so that they can have their happy lesbian life with The Governess and Gustav.

ROWAN: Yeah. And instead, the men keep trying to bring garlic flowers into their room, which is honestly--

JAZZA: [48:27]

ROWAN: --very rude.

JAZZA: Yeah, so one of the workers in the mansion, Mr. Venton, is supposed to be a, no, he's not really a hero. Basically, I immediately dislike him because we introduced him as he slaps the ass of a bar wench in the peasant village. He then decides, oh, yeah, definitely everything that's happening to Emma is vampiric in nature. He reckons the vampire is The Governess, actually, rather than Carmilla. And then starts talking with the landlord of the local pub, and getting advice and so brings in garlic flowers to Emma's bedroom, to try and ward off the vampires and causing a Doctor who also as well as encouraging the use of these flowers, brings in a a crucifix and puts it around Emma's neck. Which makes it impossible for both Carmilla and for The Governess to go into the womb and to complete the killing of our delight [49:33]

ROWAN: Yeah. Which ultimately, yeah, great plan to be honest, it did work. They pretty foolproof.

JAZZA: Yeah, it was pretty good until Venton get seduced by Carmilla and just goes, you know what, all I want to do is make out with you and I'm going to like murder this girl for it. And you know what? I was happy to see him die at the hands of Carmilla, good for her.

ROWAN: And then she's also like, ohh, going to kill the Doctor and all, like just the though we have a nice scene when the Doctor's Horse get super spooked. And she somehow, I guess is teleported there. Because she never really seems to leave the house and yet she's always off body killing people. So yeah she's, she's like you know what? We, enough of this.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: No thank you. So kind of simultaneously while all of the the lads are going on a little road trip to her old family castle to try and--

JAZZA: Yeah, where she's buried.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: She's like Oop, time for a kidnap and decides to essentially kidnap Emma, and in the process dump The Governess.

JAZZA: Can I just say this just cemented, cemented Carmilla was an, as the absolute fuck boy if this movie,

ROWAN: You're, you know what? You're absolutely right. She is--

JAZZA: Like--

ROWAN: --she is the fuck boy--

JAZZA: --literally--

ROWAN: --of this movie.

JAZZA: --The Governess is there on the floor, begging, take me with you. She loves you, she wants to create that life with Gustav.

ROWAN: She wants the cottage called dream with the cat--

JAZZA: [50:58] of this--

ROWAN: --and, in the woods, in Romanian.

JAZZA: Who knew in the 1970s that this was going to pave the way for the Cottagecore Movement and--

ROWAN: I know, right.

JAZZA: --Lesbian Cottagecore Movement.

ROWAN: That's the true history of it. And then there's so much screaming again, classic. Because she decides to to feed on The Governess and--

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: --maybe shouldn't have done that in front of Emma. If she wanted Emma--

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --to come away with her. But you know she did and that's on her. So all the screaming again. And then the suitor is here to save the day, whose name is Carl. Which--

JAZZA: Didn't know it is, no, I completely missed that. What? That's very funny--

ROWAN: It's Carl, yeah. Carl's here to save the day and so Carmilla--

JAZZA: Carl..

ROWAN: --looks like, ohh, well, I guess a bit of skip town. This is too much for me, and then runs back to the castle. Which obviously we as the audience know is filled with the lads who are up to no good.

JAZZA: The Lesbian Vampire Killer.

ROWAN: Yeah. The Lesbian Vampire Killer, the lads. And so yeah, she just runs back to the castle, has a little nap. And then while she's napping, doesn't notice them all come around her coffin and and stab her in the heart.

JAZZA: I can I just say they don't, she doesn't notice them. Finding her coffin, moving a massive, kind of like slate off of her coffin. Carrying her coffin into the chapel, opening the coffin, then moving her dress down so that expose his, her chest and then placing the stake on her breast so that they can actually stub her. She doesn't notice any of that, she's fast asleep, bless her.

ROWAN: She's hibernating, [52:22] we nap and she deserves it.

JAZZA: Very cute. This is all happening during the night as well. And that's when she's to be awake?

ROWAN: Hmm, doing question is fine. She's she's hibernating.

JAZZA: And then they once again they stab her through the chest. She is then decapitated, which again, the physical effects of this movie. We're not what I was expecting for 1970, that is very nice.

ROWAN: That's very good.

JAZZA: Have we gone backwards?

ROWAN: Possibly, I I genuinely feel like the special effects of Jurassic Park hold up better than the special effects of Jurassic World. So, yes, you're you're correct. The audience of the goodies.

JAZZA: I am with you.

ROWAN: I really enjoyed that they were like yeah, Peter Cushing can have the killing blow. He's a he's the star of this, is no real connection to a lot of what's going on here but sure. And then at the end come in his portrait on the wall has changed to be all vampire instead of all hot like she was before.

JAZZA: Very doing great.

ROWAN: Yeah, it's great. It was it was very much like Chekhov's decapitation. Because they did the guy at the very beginning was like, the only way you can kill them as if you decapitate them. And it's like, oh, I wonder if that will come back later on. It's like, a plot point. And then yeah, that was the end of the movie we had, we have experienced, The Vampire Lovers.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm, uh-hmm. Rowan did you [53:36], how how was this, how was this experience for you? Because obviously this isn't what you wanted. You wanted quote unquote, "real horror".

ROWAN: So here's the thing.

JAZZA: Mmm, go!

ROWAN: I will admit, when we were coming up with these movies, and we and you decided that we were going to watch The Vampire Lovers, I was worried.

JAZZA: Can I just say, I rolled a dice when decided this.

ROWAN: Yeah, you did annoyingly.

JAZZA: So it wasn't me that decided it was the dice.

ROWAN: The dice, it was the thing. I would admit, the time I was a bit like, disappointed because I like, no that, I don't know if I'm that interested in this or whatever. But then I did watch the movie. And I agree with my initial assessment, I was so bored. This was such a boring movie.

JAZZA: I I couldn't disagree with you more.

ROWAN: Ohhh, God.

JAZZA: I loved it, I loved it so much.

ROWAN: I've could have predicted that though. I feel like we've had, we've disagreed on movies before in this podcast. And I think it's just you enjoy trash.

JAZZA: This isn't, no no--

ROWAN: Like, and not that that's not even meant to be me. Like, like, taking a dig at you. I'm like you genuinely do appreciate sort of like campy, trashy, like low budget stuff. I think more than I do.

JAZZA: Yes. Yeah. No, I'm with you. That is my vibe. That is my my modus operandi. But also I will say, all the way through, I was just fascinated that a movie like this was out in 1970. And I was also just captivated by all of the women. Either Ingrid Pitt, really does carry this full movie, she was absolutely phenomenal throughout the whole thing. But then every single woman is just absolutely stunning. And I don't understand why they're hanging around with all of these mediocre men. I wanted it to just be the women living their cortical fantasy. And I was so sucked in to their beauty and like some of their sexy flirting. I was super into The Governess, and all of that shit. I genuinely was hooked to this movie. I I really enjoyed the ride, I thought it was great. I will say some of that is based on kind of like, oh, isn't this an interesting depiction of like, the end of the height of the Hammer Horror Movement, and of the type of movie that was out at the time and stuff like that.

ROWAN: What a nerd.

JAZZA: But I have a--I had a really nice time, I'd recommend it.

ROWAN: Yeah, I also I guess it appreciated it on that more intellectual level of like, mmm, this is I was I was like, at the very least, there's stuff that we can say about it. In the same way as I did predict this is what was going to happen. That like when you do an experiment in science class, really, I just keep doing high school metaphors. And it's not even on purpose. And when you do an experiment in science class, and it goes horribly wrong, and all of your results are wrong. You're like, well, at least I have something to write in my evaluation, even if the results and the conclusion of the terrible. I'll have, I'll basically just be able to, like, absolutely destroyed myself by being like me from 10 minutes ago, when I did this experiment is ridiculous, and doesn't know what she was doing and absolute fool. Or here all the things she did wrong.

JAZZA: And you're and you'll get really good marks for being reflective.

ROWAN: Yeah, exactly. You really reflective. And I kind of feel like this is the vibe of like, well, I don't enjoy it. But there's a lot we can say about it. So I guess this is the section where we talk about a little bit more context specific around Queer Movies, lesbian vampires, they're a thing. So this is not, this very much was part of a tradition. Like you talked about Carmilla before. And this is a tradition that has very much been with us for a long time, for a number of reasons. So one, as we talked about before, the vampire genre ties in a lot to sex and sexuality. And it only makes sense that if you're going to talk about perversion and sexuality that lesbians come up, you know, it's a it's just how we do. So I think also the fact that there is a, there is a riskier a danger, and alert sexuality element of vampires. And so if you're going to pick a sexuality to titillate the assumed to be male audience. With a bit of taboo, with a bit of danger, with a lot of titties, the lesbians will do it for you. So this is very much yeah, old, old trope, which has continued on through the decades. And this was absolutely no exception and actually was like a very noted example of it that a lot of people will talk about. I think it was very interesting that, when you look at the Wikipedia article for this movie, it gives you, often Wikipedia articles will tell you like what the rotten score is with critics.

JAZZA: Uhm.

ROWAN: And the note that they've made of it being certified rotten. I looked at the citation, and it was from 2013. It is now absolutely not certified rotten, the critic score is 71. And the audience score is 60. So it kind of has gotten more critical clout as a cult classic, than sort of a good movie at the time getting good reviews. It's very much had basically the reaction that we sort of had to at of, there is something about the context of it and something about its sort of cult classic status, which has, I think, elevate it in in subsequent reviews.

JAZZA: Is it, I'm sensing a mirroring of what we saw with Jennifer's Body--

ROWAN: Hmm.

JAZZA: --a little bit.

ROWAN: You are not wrong, you're absolutely not wrong. There is this idea of the as I kind of mentioned earlier, corrupting lesbian force, right? So you would often have not just in like supernatural ways in in more realistic dramas around these decades, especially within the Hays Code or around it, of the experienced, maybe older sexual lesbian, and the young innocent virgin who didn't really understand what was going on and couldn't be blamed and was sucked in but just needed to be kind of taken out of this woman's [59:23] and given to a nice good man and that would kind of cheer her like this very much is something that is a big, big part of the conceptualization people had of lesbians of what what that relationship looks like. And I think queer people in general was like, the predator, right? So you had a lot of in our history, we have a lot of stuff where, you know, queer people shouldn't be teachers because they shouldn't be around young people. Ridiculous, obviously. And then more recently, we have the sort of trans bathroom panic stuff around the idea that old trans people shouldn't be trusted with our children in bathrooms like just completely ridiculous. But absolutely ties into this idea of like the evil lesbian trope, which plays out so much, over over time, over over this genre. And if you're being interpreting it in maybe a little bit more of a generous way, or if you wanted to subvert it, then you might look at how becoming a vampire is sort of as a symbol of no longer being tied to sort of puritanical ideas of sex and sexuality. And it being a very freeing experience and that that kind of tying into queerness like, I definitely think there's room for that interpretation. In like more modern explorations of lesbian vampires. I'd be really interested to see stuff like that. But yeah, there's a 1936 film Dracula's Daughter.

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: Which has a lot of lesbian subtext. And that was coming to dawn in The Celluloid Closet, the amazing documentary about LGBT Cinema, Lesbian Vampire Killers, obviously.

JAZZA: The 1936 Dracula's Daughter was actually a victim of the Hays Code. So it was stopped from even being filmed as being explicitly queer before they started actual production. And it's an awful lot of like fade to black. But that could have beaten this movie, really. This is kind of like a a reimagining of it in in certain ways, just with more text.

ROWAN: Indeed, Lesbian Vampire Killers, obviously, the James Corden movie. Even Doctor Who, there's like this episode: The Vampires of Venice, where like, technically, they aren't vampires. They're like, they basically are like fish vampires. And this matriarch--it's like, this matriarchal called cult that like, gaggle--

JAZZA: Is Doctor Who I'm sure it makes sense [1:01:33]--

ROWAN: And, yeah, it's like, she gathers together this like, cult of brainwashed women and feeds on them. And you're like, hmm, these implications feel very pointed. Because this--

JAZZA: Yeah.

ROWAN: --is such an actual thing. There's--

JAZZA: I'm also thinking about [1:01:47] right?

ROWAN: I was gonna say as well, yeah--

JAZZA: I'm on it, yeah.

ROWAN: So do you wanna, do you wanna to talk a bit about bit? It's like, I guess a more modern example of this.

JAZZA: Yeah, is a is a very similar thing. So basically, somebody young moves to L.A. gets bit and basically joins, like a a lesbian vampire street gang who go around killing men, because men are trash is broadly the the context of the movie, right?

ROWAN: Yeah. And and really interestingly, it's one of those movies where you have a trans protagonist as well as like--

JAZZA: Yeah yeah yeah.

ROWAN: --queer trans protagonist.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: So yeah, that's some interesting, I guess, context of the Lesbian Vampire. Like this is not an isolated incident. Like when we're talking about horror as a genre and queer horror. the Lesbian Vampire is an absolutely quintessential figure. And this film is for all of its faults that we pointed out, [1:02:32] in the case of Jazza is a really, really important to that kind of element of queer history. Did you have any, anything to add around queer movie history around horror?

JAZZA: Well, there's kind of less on the the movie side of things. But I wanted to talk about the source text a little bit. Which is the reason that we get to see kind of like such an explicitly--

ROWAN: Uhmm.

JAZZA: --queer movie in 1970. So Carmilla, was released in 1872, by the Irish Novelist, Sheridan Le Fanu. Who is a man, unfortunately--

ROWAN: Eiww..

JAZZA: --the woman showed in that [1:03:07], and I'm, I'm sure he was I in predated Dracula by like, a quarter of a century. And was really, it's quite difficult to find examples of how it was received back in the 1800s. But is a really, nowadays we definitely call it progressive, because when you look at it, compared to a lot of other contemporary tech for the time. The women in Carmilla, are very much seen as equals, if not superior to men. Which we also see in this reimagining in 1970. And this really did, it was significant because of the juxtaposition that we had between what kind of like a Victorian man was supposed to be. He was supposed to be, if you think of Mr. Banks, Mr. Banks is the idea of what like a Victorian Management to be. Head of the household, making sure that kids are beautiful and clothed. The wife doesn't have to work and is kind of like this, this upstanding part of society. But the men constantly get tricked by the women. Both Carmilla and her familiars throughout the novel. And for that reason, it's very, very significant. Also, the fact that she is, like Carmilla as a as a book character also embodies a lot of like the classic queer tropes that we see in horror as well. The idea of living a double life coming to life and being your real self during the night time, being a misunderstood monster. The fact that she really seems to genuinely love her victims. And he's pained whenever she actually ends up murdering them. And like she really, I think in another universe, rather than Dracula, we would have Carmilla it's kind of like the archetype of what a vampire is. But even though Jack Lew is clearly kind of like the dawn, Carmilla has been reimagined in this movie. But also, there were the iterations of Dracula's Daughter that definitely draw inspiration from the Carmilla book. There are iterations of her throughout kind of like movies and TV shows. And she is the final boss of quite a lot of vampire and Castlevania inspired video games and stuff like that. But can I tell you, Rowan--

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

JAZZA: --what my favorite reimagining of the Carmilla story is?

ROWAN: Please do.

JAZZA: So in 2014, there was a web series called Carmilla, that was told in the style of a lonely girl 15, flog of, oh, I'm a journalism student doing flogs about kind of like this mysterious stuff that's happening in the dorm of this Austrian University. I am here trying to figure out why my roommate has gone missing. And this new girl called Carmilla has come into my dorm room, and she keeps on bringing back girls and is seducing me and they go on this three season rump all told from kind of like the single camera perspective in classic web series style. They did four seasons of this, technically, and then ended up creating a movie, which was called Carmilla the movie inspired. But this iteration not only has stolen my heart, I've watched about an hour of the first season already, and I've researched in my research today. But it won a butt ton of awards for kind of like being outstanding storytelling in the mid 2018s as well.

ROWAN: Jazza.

JAZZA: Uhm.

ROWAN: Jazza Jazza Jazza.

JAZZA: Yeah?

ROWAN: So bold of you to assume that I, a lesbian. Have not heard of the Carmilla web series. Probably the most well-known like lesbian fandom on the internet. This is amazing that you have found this as like a novelty, like a first time thing--

JAZZA: I love--

ROWAN: --this is, this is like, this is web series. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's called Carmilla. It's like--

JAZZA: Is this like me saying have have you like anime? Have you heard of Evangelion? Is it, is it like that kind of vibe? Is that the wrong reference to use--

ROWAN: Wrong reference to use to me, but I--

JAZZA: [1:07:33]

ROWAN: --appreciate it anyway. Yes, this is like a very well-known web series.

JAZZA: I'd never heard of it before. And I'm in love and this is going to be the rest of my weekend is watching this.

ROWAN: I love that for you. Please update me as to how you feel about it.

JAZZA: Oh, I will. Have you seen the movie as well? What's the movie like?

ROWAN: I haven't seen the movie, no, I I--

JAZZA: Maybe maybe that's a future episode.

ROWAN: I hate, I hate to, I hate to admit this after I just dragged you so hard for not knowing that this was like a thing. I haven't actually watched it. But it's that, it's like ghosty thing of like, if you were a lesbian online, you know about the Carmilla web series.

JAZZA: Got it.

ROWAN: That yeah, you're right. did win a lot of awards.

JAZZA: I hate to ruin things for you, Rowan. But I this may be a come as a shock to you, but I am not a lesbian online.

ROWAN: What?

JAZZA: I'm so sorry.

ROWAN: What? How dare you? But yeah, this is uhh, I'm glad to be called a bit of context. I feel like there's, yeah, a lot to say about this movie and a lot to kind of appreciate about it, that isn't the movie. Anyway, shall we get, with that damning report from Rowan, shall we have a little, shall we have a look at like how we would both rate it.

[1:08:38]

[Transition Music]

ROWAN: The next rating that we like to give is the colors of the rainbow. So this is how many colors of the rainbow flag would would we give it? And you know what? We'll also do which colors.

JAZZA: Yeah, yeah, I'm done for that. And so we're going with the the six bars. So red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and of course, purple.

ROWAN: I'm gonna give it two out of six. It was a two out of six film for me.

JAZZA: I'll be realized that, I I thought that that was that's more than I was expecting to be [1:09:17]

ROWAN: I think that the other ba--one of the bars. Okay, let's go with one of the bars is red, obviously, that can be the bar for the film itself. And then I'll give it--

JAZZA: I feel like whenever there is a vampire in a movie, it has to be given.

ROWAN: Obviously. And then the second one I'll do purple, but it's more because of its kind of contribution to the queer candidate in general than like a particular enjoyment of the film itself.

JAZZA: Uhm.

ROWAN: So, I'm giving it two of six, red and purple. How about you?

JAZZA: Okay, so I haven't thought about this very much. And so I'm just going to start talking and see what happens. So I want to give it three to four bars.

ROWAN: Okay.

JAZZA: Which, again, I'm a generous man, what can I say?

ROWAN: Okay, okay.

JAZZA: The first bar, red--

ROWAN & JAZZA: Obviously.

ROWAN: Yeah.

JAZZA: Passion, life, sex--

ROWAN: Blood.

JAZZA: --it is the color of Carmilla's dress, her crown, that pendant that gives away where she's sleeping under the chapel.

ROWAN: All of those things.

JAZZA: All of those things. The second one I'm going to give is, green, nature. Just like that forest there that that peasant girl--

ROWAN: Mmm.

JAZZA: --tripped over in, rolled over and scream.

ROWAN: Yeah, like good stuff. The cat, in nature--

JAZZA: This [1:10:26] the cat, fame--

ROWAN: Cottagecore.

JAZZA: --natural. Yeah, exactly. I'm gonna go with spirit, which is purple.

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

JAZZA: And that is because there was lots of, all they tried.

ROWAN: They had some, they have a spirit and that's what's important. It's the thought that counts.

JAZZA: Exactly. And then the fourth one I'm going to give is, is blue because of serenity. But I am going to interpret serenity as not giving a fuck.

ROWAN: Ahhh.

JAZZA: And Carmilla is there to break some hearts.

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

JAZZA: She is the fuck boy of this movie.

ROWAN: Yeah. You're right.

JAZZA: And she, when The Governess is there begging her to take her with her. Carmilla gives how many fucks?

ROWAN: There, it's very, it very much has the energy of that mean. That's like, The Governess is like, I'll die without you. And Carmilla is like, then perish.

JAZZA: Yes, 100%.

ROWAN: Does not care whatsoever.

JAZZA: Uh-hmm. Look at us, well done.

[1:11:30]

[Outro]

ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast related.

JAZZA: If you feel entertained, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patreons really do allow us to put in the hours of research and recording that goes into these episodes. So sincerely, thank you. One of our perks on Patreon is a queer movie watch along every last Saturday of the month, exclusively for our patreons hosted on our Discord. Gay fun, really is had by all, so come join us.

ROWAN: The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions, so make sure you check out all of our other awesome podcasts full of both fun and frivolity.

JAZZA: Make sure you follow and subscribe to this hear podcast, so that you are primed for our next episode. Thank you very much, my darlin's, you will hear us very soon. [1:12:23]

ROWAN: A byie!

Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil

Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil

Movies That Made Me Queer: Gabe Hicks

6 januari 2022 | 58 min

In the first of a new series where we ask guests, What Movie Made You Queer? Today Rowan is joined by creative producer, storyteller extraordinaire and all round deity, Gabe Hicks, AKA, @GabeJamesGames on Twitter.

Find Us Online

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

Transcript

ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best and worst of LGBTQ+ cinema, one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis, and welcome to one of our guest specials that we'll be releasing between our usual Queer Movie Club episodes. Today, we're joined by Gabe, who will be answering the question, "What movies made you queer?" I'm very excited to welcome creative producer and storyteller extraordinaire, Gabe Hicks, aka Gabe James Games.

GABE: Hello! I'm happy to be here! I was talking to Rowan, I was like, "Yes, let me just talk about these things!" It's-- it's actually something that I have never really talked about, especially since more of my expression has been, like, more publicly recent, like this last year is when I really started openly sharing my identity and stuff.

ROWAN: Amazing. I like that we're giving you the opportunity to do what I think a lot of people like to do, which is just talk excitedly about movies. I feel like it's a universal language.

GABE: Absolutely.

ROWAN: And I'm very glad to be part of it. So, this is going to be the first episode of this type of format that we're trying.

GABE: Oh, my god.

ROWAN: I know, very exciting. You are the debut. So, I would love to hear how many movies/sort of pieces of media/TV shows did you bring today for us?

GABE: So, I brought four movies and then one piece of media.

ROWAN: Amazing.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Do you have an order? Do you-- Have you already planned out your ideal order for this or are you just gonna pick them out of a hat at random?

GABE: I actually did plan in order.

ROWAN: In which case, far from it. That sentence didn't make any sense. I was like... I was about to say --

GABE: Far be from it.

ROWAN: -- far from it to be to me, to Gabe.

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: AKA, what is your first choice, Gabe?

GABE: Pirates of the Caribbean.

ROWAN: Oh, okay. Well, if anyone has ever spoken to me in my entire life, they will know that I am a massive Elizabeth Swann apologist and also love to talk about --

GABE: Really?

ROWAN: -- Pirates of the Caribbean.

GABE: All right, that's fair.

ROWAN: And I would love to hear your thoughts about it. And then obviously, cancel this podcast episode if we disagree on this very first movie so...

GABE: Cool, cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's fine.

ROWAN: You know, the friendship is hanging on this, Gabe.

GABE: Good. Good.

ROWAN: Please be-- be aware.

GABE: The-- the appearance of Jack Sparrow to me was-- that was the moment when I was like, I don't know if I want to be with him or be him. Kind of column A, column B, like, why not both? Weird, bold, beautiful, strange, unapologetic, charming in the way that he was just weird, and just did it. And was surrounded by such a wild assortment of people. And then Calypso is one of the most, be like the actress who plays Calypso as well as the character. Some of the most beautiful people that I've really seen. So, the more characters they introduced–. And then-- then the later ones when spoiler alerts, you got, like, Barbosa's daughter. And just-- I was like, "Why is everyone so attractive?" I will say Orlando Bloom, like, I enjoyed him, but I can't separate him from Legolas. And Legolas was too much of a pretty boy for my taste, because it was-- it was, like, long flowing pity boy, I wanted like, weird, gritty, strange boy, which is why Jack Sparrow pretty much checked all the boxes.

ROWAN: Yeah, well, in turn it wasn't really giving that. He was very sweet in his own way. It was really funny because I remember Pirates of the Caribbean was out at exactly the same time as Lord of the Rings. How do I know that? Because I --

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: -- fully remember having posters of both on my wall. And I did have posters of Orlando Bloom as both roles, which was really I think, just the last vestiges of my, like, supposed heterosexuality clinging to the walls of my bedroom.

GABE: Yup, yup.

ROWAN: I think that what you just said about I didn't know if I wanted to be– be them or, like, be with them?

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: What a mood. What a queer mood. I feel like that is something that most of us can relate to. This strange kind of like, there is something alluring about this and I'm not entirely sure.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: What? What element of this is working for me?

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Were you like a pirate kid? Was that-- was that a thing that you're already obsessed with? Or was this kind of like a new-- new thing for you in those years?

GABE: It was a new thing for me. And it became, like, a fixation. I was like, I want all of this. I wasn't a pirate kid until those movies came out. And then, I was wholeheartedly a pirate kid. I was like, sea shanties, sea monsters, and, like, the thing is, I couldn't swim. So, like, it was very interesting --

ROWAN: Amazing.

GABE: -- that I was like all about, I think, but you know what, like, if I can't swim, maybe Jack would save me and if he didn't, maybe I deserved it. I don't know. But like, I would-- I would risk it. I would risk it for the biscuit.

ROWAN: I just love-- Yeah, I was gonna ask, did you live near the sea? I was just imagining you on your own little boat and you're like, "Nope."

GABE: Not at all. I lived in the woods, in the forest. And maybe that was part of why I loved it. I was terrified of boats. But like, I would, you know, if Jack Sparrow was like, "All right, Gabe. We're getting on a ship and we're sailing the sea." I'm like, "Say less. I-- wherever you need me. I will --

ROWAN: I am there.

GABE: -- scrub the deck. I will fire the gun off swinging on a rope above the sea. And I might die but I'm gonna die happy.

ROWAN: That's hilarious to me because obviously, I mean, I feel like it's not really a spoiler to say Jack Sparrow in those movies is not the most moral of peoples.

GABE: No!

ROWAN: So, I just love the idea that you're just like, "Whatever you say, Jack, I'm there."

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: Like, it doesn't even. And he's like, "Oh, I don't have to convince?" You're like, "Jack, listen, I'm already on the boat. Like, it's fine."

GABE: Yeah. You didn't, Jack-- you. I'm here. I get-- I'm basically committed to whatever happens next.

ROWAN: Have you been to the new revamped Pirates of the Caribbean ride?

GABE: Yes, I have.

ROWAN: Have Jack in it.

GABE: I was at Disney World in October, and, like, Pirates of the Caribbean was one of the things I explicitly wanted to do, and the animatronics are so good. It's actually very startling.

ROWAN: It's-- it's really funny because obviously, you've got all of the old animatronics, which are, let's just say not as good.

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: And it's-- and then just as one weirdly human, like, figure in them.

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: Which I greatly enjoyed. So I, as I mentioned, Elizabeth Swann, I'm an Elizabeth Swann apologist. I basically just think that those movies, everyone I understand the allure of Jack Sparrow, and maybe it is the lesbian in me, Gabe. I'm not-- I-- I'm not lying, I might be biased, but I feel like, there's obviously he's such a memorable character.

GABE: You're not biased, you're lesbiased.

ROWAN: Yeah, lesbiased, that oh, you know what, I'm using that now. Never-- never will the word bias cross my lips anymore. I will be writing it in emails. I will explain nothing.

GABE: Lesbias. Oh shit, that's funny. Damn.

ROWAN: But they-- they you-- honestly, add comedian to the list of stuff you do, Gabe.

GABE: Thank you.

ROWAN: Because you honestly do everything and it was about time that you added another string to the– to the bow.

GABE: That's true.

ROWAN: Which I assume you can also shoot? You seem like the kind of person who would know how to shoot arrows.

GABE: I have two bows and three crossbows.

ROWAN: Of course you do. Of course you do. Yeah, that was not even a question. But yeah, Elizabeth Swann. The movies are just about her. The whole, like, Will especially. I love Will Turner. Like, he's a lovely character and everything, but all he does is get rescued by Jack or Elizabeth.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: And then just go around going, "Elizabeth. Elizabeth."

GABE: That's true.

ROWAN: Like, the entire time. That's his entire role. And like, I love that for him.

GABE: Okay, so I'm-- I'm gonna say, I feel like the reason that I don't like Elizabeth, is because they intentionally made her an ass, and they didn't have to. They could have made her way more of an endearing figure that was just a powerful woman. And they instead tried to-- it's like, they were, like, trying to pretend that they were committing to a damsel in distress. But then, it's like, but no, she's like, powerful, but I'm like, why did you make her powerful, and then, like, snarky.

ROWAN: Okay, but here's the thing, Gabe.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Have you? Have you heard of the concept of a mean lesbian?

GABE: No, because lesbians aren't usually mean to me.

ROWAN: I mean, to your face, Gabe, but no, the-- yeah, there's a sort of mean lesbian vibe meme kind of-- kind of thing going around. And maybe in my head, I'm like, "Maybe she just fits into that." I just think she's-- My-- my full, like, biggest complaint with that series is that it ended with Elizabeth just being like, "I guess I'll never go on the sea again. See you-- see you seven years, Will."

GABE: God!

ROWAN: Like, what?

GABE: The thing is-- the thing that bothered me was I really wanted to like her character. I really want and I liked the concept of her character. I liked the actress. I felt like they copped out when they were writing her-- writing her story. It's like, we're going to make her a side character. And then we're going to make her a main character, and then they basically sidelined her again, and I'm like, "Pick one. Pick one and then make her, like, give her the story that she deserves. Instead of, like, pretending that she's-- They acted like she was a half-replacement for Jack when she's her own powerful individual character."

ROWAN: Again, I must say to you, Gabe, have you considered the outfit she wears in the Singapore sequence?

GABE: I didn't say she wasn't hot. She-- she can-- Look, if Will is on the sea, I will happily be her, like, land man. I don't-- Look, anything that she wants. I look like Davy Jones, Jack Sparrow, and Calypso had a triangle baby. Like, I'll hook her up. That's fine, but I'm just --.

ROWAN: She'd be into that.

GABE: Probably. I'm just-- I'm just mad they didn't give me the Elizabeth Swann that should have gotten the attention she deserved. It's like they wanted to give us a powerful femme character and they're like, "But... No, nevermind. Everybody, nevermind."

ROWAN: Listen, when I finally make my video essay about how underappreciated Elizabeth Swann is, truly the mark of success will be moving the dial on your dislike of this character even slightly, that's going to be my aim for it. But I really enjoy the fact that both of us have parts the Caribbean as one of our queer awakening sort of movies. I love that that was the one that you started with. Not even planned, listeners at home, that was just the power of-- the power --

GABE: Friendship.

ROWAN: -- of Disney, I guess. The power of Disney's IP. They knew what they were doing. I just at any time, assume that they're making another part of the Caribbean movie. I feel like the world is always in a state of having had one announced.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: The watching one, or, like, waiting for the next one to be announced. I feel like it's never gonna go. I thought that, like, Jungle Cruise was them trying to be like, I remember that. Remember that franchise we did about a ride? And I don't-- I don't quite know if it's got the-- got the chops.

GABE: Yeah. You're probably right.

ROWAN: Sweet, shall we, in that case, move from the high seas, I assume.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Although I don't know, maybe every single movie that you're about to mention is pirate related.

GABE: No, no, but that's fair.

ROWAN: To your second choice.

GABE: We're going to move from the sea of water to the sea of sand.

ROWAN: Ooh.

GABE: We're gonna talk a little bit about Aladdin.

ROWAN: I already as soon as you said sand, I was like, "Well, there could only be one option here."

GABE: Picking Aladdin or Jasmine is impossible. They are. Don't-- Don't at me. I don't care. Be- So, okay, they were both beautiful people.

ROWAN: Inside and out.

GABE: Yeah, like, oh, but they were both incredibly charming, and it was nice seeing a relationship that they had close relationships with so many different types of people. And the way that they expressed it or the way that they enjoyed it, it wasn't, like, tainted unless the people were distinctly evil and bad. Like, Jasmine's relationship with her dad was genuinely, like, for the-- for the most part healthy, until we look at, like, the weird underlying tones. But like, at face value, it was good. Seeing Aladdin, this man, get into a situation, come out with a whole bunch of possibility for wealth, glory, and all of that. And then, just take a route of, like, personal happiness. That actually is what, like, enticed me so much because, like, that portrayal of a man is not something that I felt, like, I got a lot of younger, and it made me admire his character so much more like, "Yes. Like, that's-- that's the kind of person that I want to see and I would want to be with."

ROWAN: Amazing. I-- yeah, fully agree on that. I feel like I need to rewatch Aladdin. I think I don't know what shit since I was a lot younger, but I found the entire thing entirely charming as a child.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Also, absolutely banging soundtrack obviously.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Cannot be ignored.

GABE: [12:16] scoundrel.

ROWAN: How do you feel about the live action remake? Is that something you've dipped your toes into?

GABE: I actually haven't seen it. I'm not sure if it'll give me the same, the same levels of excitement. Have you seen it?

ROWAN: I have. It was very forgettable. I have a very good friend who would probably, like, lock me in the darkest deepest dungeon for saying this because she was very into the-- to Aladdin in every single way, shape, or form. But I was, like, very forgettable. Prince Ali the sequence that was that song was an absolute bop.

GABE: Ooh yeah.

ROWAN: But it wasn't necessary. They tried to add a little bit of, like, Jasmine as a feminist. And I was like, "I... I don't know if that needed to be added, but I guess they did that with they kind of keep trying to do that in the remakes."

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Here's a very important question for you. Have you seen King of Thieves?

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: How do you feel about Aladdin's hot dad?

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Where does he rank on your Aladdin spectrum?

GABE: Ooh. Okay, okay. So, above Aladdin.

ROWAN: Okay.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Okay. Also agreed. I'm like, is he my exception?

GABE: Aladdin is pretty, but the dad is handsome.

ROWAN: You are not wrong. Listen, I am a lesbian. I am only attracted to women. And yet, if the cartoon man, Aladdin's dad whose name I have forgotten, Cassim, I think.

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: Was to step out of the television after I had had a heart attack that the fact that a cartoon man was standing before me.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: And that such things were possible.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: I would take them on a date so...

GABE: That's valid. Honestly, it would probably be an amazing date, the man would show you things that you've never seen before. And we can interpret that in however we would like to, but, like, those, there are plenty of things that people love to grab onto on other people. And those gray strips on the side of his head are basically just guidance.

ROWAN: Aladdin, Aladdin would take me on a date on a magic carpet. And yeah, I still believe that a date with Cassim would be an even more wondrous adventure.

GABE: Absolutely.

ROWAN: For many reasons.

GABE: Absolutely.

ROWAN: I just-- I love how it was like, "Here's my hot take, Rowan." And I was like, "Cool. I take your hot take and I raise you a hot dad." Ah, it's all coming together.

GABE: Look, I am a Dream Daddy cosplayer. I-- If you-- if you look at, like, a third of the cosplays I've done there have been a lot of dads. Dream daddy is the bi dad, which obviously has shaped a lot of me. Dragon Prince has the --

ROWAN: Oh my god.

GABE: -- yeah has the dad. And I guess something-- another-- another good example is, like, one thing to think about this but She-Ra, the dad from She-Ra, Bow's-- Bow has two dads.

ROWAN: Yes. Oh my gosh.

GABE: And I've cosplayed as one of the dads from She-Ra just because he's, like, the beautiful man with long dreads and everything. And then he's got his gorgeous husband that also looks like a Dream Daddy character. I've cosplayed as a straight appearing dad, I've cosplayed as a bi dad. And I've cosplayed as a gay dad now.

ROWAN: You-- you-- you've got the, like, full bingo card of dads.

GABE: Yes. Basically. It's, it's --

ROWAN: That's everything.

GABE: That's exactly right.

ROWAN: I'm interested to know, like, when-- when we're talking about these, with these always-- these pieces of media, were these always things that you were exploring, like, at the age when you first watched them? Was it something that was, like, pinging in the back of your mind whether or not you kind of realized what it meant? Or is this stuff where you were, like, actually, it was looking back on them and when I was older, that made me kind of realize what was going on there?

GABE: I think it was more like looking back on it when I was older, because it-- I've never, like, for... for a while I didn't really care about having a word for it. And even-- even now, like, that's-- that's a great reason that, like, queer is a great overarching term. Because I don't-- I don't. It varies depending on the day. And I don't always know where the hell I fall in the spectrum. And I realized very quickly that, like, the reason I kept trying to find a term for it was because other people wanted a term from me for it. And after I realized that I was like, "Actually, who cares?" Because it's not up to them to determine this. It's just up to me, if these three men are attractive to me, and, like, the other 300 in this situation aren't, I don't have to define in one way or another or whatever way because there's-- sometimes there are people that it's like just the emotional attraction to them. Sometimes it's just the physical attraction. Sometimes it's so situational that I was like, when I was looking back at it, I was like, "Oh, you know what, like, I don't-- I don't know where it falls, but if it wasn't just this, and it wasn't just that, so let's put it in the umbrella."

ROWAN: Yeah, absolutely. So, if you've been enjoying the podcast so far, or to be honest, even if you haven't, you should definitely check out some of the other shows that are part of the Multitude collective. The one that I'm going to talk about specifically today is Horse. So, quick confession. I, in my misspent youth, was in fact, not the femme lesbian that you see before you, but a very confused little middle school jock. And so, I have, in my real life, left the world of sports behind, but in my podcast life, continue to be intrigued. And so, for that very dark and shameful reason, I have been listening to the podcast Horse recently. So, it's essentially a podcast that talks about some of the most ridiculous stories, the drama, the highs and lows, the biggest and baddest of the world of basketball. Now, I should say, I never played basketball, and I have no intention to but you don't have to be a superfan to appreciate this podcast. You can be someone who has literally never cared about sports before, and the comedic stylings of your hosts Adam Mamawala and Mike Schubert will, I'm sure, appeal to you. This isn't about the scores of the latest games. It is about the unbelievable history and culture of basketball, whether it's a shot-by-shot breakdown of Get your head in the Game from High School Musical, absolutely iconic. Or a thorough discussion of the best and worst food at NBA arenas, the Horse boys have got you covered. New episodes released every other Monday, just search Horse in your podcast app, or check out horsehoops.com. Horse, because basketball is more than what happens on the court. Quick question, dear listener, do you use the internet? Because if the answer is yes, then today's sponsor is for you. Particularly, if you, like me, have an embarrassingly large amount of tabs open on your browser at any one time. I am talking of course about Tab for a Cause, a browser extension that lets you raise money for charity, while just doing your thing online. Basically, how it works is whenever you open a new tab, you will see two things, a beautiful photo and a small ad. And then, part of that ad money goes towards a charity of your choice. It really is as simple as that. Every time you open up a tab, you no longer have to feel guilty about the 103 other ones that are open in a different window behind the one that you're currently using. You can just say, "Hey, I'm doing it for charity, so it's fine." So, if that sounds up your street then you can join Team Queer Movie Podcast by signing up at tabforcause.org/queermovie. I would love to hear about mysterious characters/movies/things you have brought to the table: Number three.

GABE: So, this is a weird one.

ROWAN: This. I love it. Sandwiched right in the middle, just to get-- getting a bit weird by number-- number three

GABE: James Cameron's Avatar.

ROWAN: Okay, I can only assume considering, I don't know how many people know this out there. I don't know how many people at Disney World aficionados, like ourselves, but they have made an entire avatar land Pandora.

GABE: I know, Rowan.

ROWAN: In the animal kingdom. I can only assume because that movie made a lot of money and zero cultural impact other than, I guess, to people like you. So, I can only assume that you were solely responsible for that becoming a thing.

GABE: [20:37].

ROWAN: Oh, my God.

GABE: I have-- There is a PDF when that movie came out of the language that I spent, like, six months memorizing. A huge chunk of it.

ROWAN: I love this so much.

GABE: I have so many pictures taken at Pandora from Disney World. I was speaking the language to some of, like, the employee cast members. And they looked at me with so much concern and confusion in their eyes because none of them knew what the hell I was saying.

ROWAN: They had no clue.

GABE: And those-- those gigantic blue people that were, like, beautiful trees that I just wanted to climb. Like, I didn't-- I didn't care about gender or anything. I just wanted them to hold me. Like, just-- just to hold me, cradle me, kiss my forehead. Yes, please. Thank you.

ROWAN: Amazing.

GABE: I got in there. They were all beautiful. It-- the-- the markings, the tattoos, the, like, 10-foot, 11-foot. 12-foot tall. It's just-- I-- I never felt the analogy, "I want to climb someone like a tree," until that movie. And then I was like, "I get it."

ROWAN: I feel like, okay, so when I've been at Disney World, I've not really been someone who is super into, like, meeting characters. I have some friends I've gone with who are really into it. And I'm, like, really happy being the person who takes pictures and hops them up and everything. But when I went to the, like, Princess bit, I met Tiana.

GABE: Hmm.

ROWAN: There was just something about this, like, beautiful woman talking to me about food because that's obviously really, like, you know, a good talking point for Tiana's character who owns a restaurant.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Where she just be asking me, like, what my favorite, like, what food was, like, a popular where I was from and talking about her restaurant and stuff. And my heart was, like, a little bit of a flutter. I imagine that your-- you will reach your final form when you go to Pandora and they have worked out how to do the Na'vi as character as, like, walking around characters. I feel like at that point, you will, like, ascend.

GABE: Yeah. Like, that-- that quiet, "yeah," is so strong. It-- like, it's-- it's so weird to think about it. But like, one of the things that made me realize was, like, it was-- it was that moment of, like, they're all beautiful. Like, they're all-- they're all gorgeous. I don't-- I don't care what they have. I don't care who they are. They're all beautiful, man, woman, non-binary. Like, whoever they are, wherever they identify, I was like, "They're all hot." And that was when I was like, "Yeah, okay, this makes sense. This checks out."

ROWAN: I can't say I've ever been specifically attracted to those aliens, but I --

GABE: We can fix that.

ROWAN: -- fully with maybe I-- maybe I haven't watched avatar.

GABE: i have plenty of cosplaying friends

ROWAN: Seen enough. Oh, no. Yeah, no, that's the danger.

GABE: I'm gonna-- I'm gonna send you some links.

ROWAN: I know you are. That's-- I have zero doubt that that's going to happen. I'm like, waiting. I'm like, maybe it's gonna ping right now. Maybe that's --

GABE: Oh, it absolutely-- It will.

ROWAN: Oh.

GABE: I'm finding it.

ROWAN: Excellent. I love the how sometimes you have very what people consider normal. Not you personally, although obviously you personally but just you one in general, will have these kind of moments of like, "Oh my goodness," about, you know, these human beings, you know, acting. And then sometimes it's like, "Oh, I like this cartoon of a human.," and then something. Sometimes it's just like, "I like this concept. I like this vibe."

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: I feel like just this whole thing they've got going on is a real great. In that case, I mean, how are you feeling about the fact that they're apparently making, like, four new movies in this franchise?

GABE: I'm ready. I'm ready.

ROWAN: Have you-- Have you already, like, committed to a cosplay for it? Are you like--

GABE: 100%. I've had a Na'vi bodysuit since I was about 18. But now, I know how to do makeup so...

ROWAN: It's gonna look even better.

GABE: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

ROWAN: I'm so ready for that. And you've got the bows as well. Like, it's all coming together.

GABE: You're absolutely right. I'm trying-- I'm trying to be everybody's problem.

ROWAN: So, I mean, you truly are everyone's problem. To be fair, you already. People, it's really funny because I knew you from D&D stuff.

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: Like, that's how I first came across you. And it wasn't until you, congratulations, by the way, we're being the sort of storyteller, which I mentioned 20.

GABE: Thank you.

ROWAN: That I realized that, like, everyone was watching --

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: -- this trailer, this announcement. And every single person has a different reference for, like, where they knew you from. And a lot of people just know you as, like, the thirst trap person.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Like, the person who just does, like, thirst trap cosplays.

GABE: Yeah, it's really funny to me. There's-- there's people who knew me, there's people who know me from Tumblr as the Fae dad or the Unicorn man. There's some people who know me from TikTok. Some people know me from Tiktok as, like, the hot vampire guy. Some people know me from my house, some people know me from my Dream Daddy cosplays. Yes, some people just know me as, like, the thirst trap dude from Twitter and Instagram. It's so many different places. That's not even counting, like, the game design stuff. So, it's-- it's-- I have gotten some messages about being some people's bi awakenings, like, over this past year.

ROWAN: Amazing. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised.

GABE: I'm just like, "Good. Learn about yourself."

ROWAN: I mean, I obviously take great pride in having stumbled across you for your intellect and --

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: -- genuine, you know, brain but I, you know, we come for the brain, we stick around for the thirst trap. So, that's just how --

GABE: Come for the brains, stay for the butt.

ROWAN: -- how it works.

GABE: I send you some things on Twitter. I just want you to know that.

ROWAN: There we go. Aren't you guys jealous listening to this. There's just-- it's just me essentially getting a load of messages that you can't see from Gabe this whole time.

GABE: Good.

ROWAN: I would love to hear about your fourth thing that you have bought for me.

GABE: Hell yes. That is The Wild Wild West movie with Will Smith.

ROWAN: Amazing. Amazing. We've really truly had a journey today. We were at the high seas, we are in the desert, we've gone to space.

GABE: Yep.

ROWAN: We're back in-- we're back I guess in the desert but a different desert.

GABE: Basically.

ROWAN: So, I have a confession to make.

GABE: You've never seen it?

ROWAN: I have not seen this movie.

GABE: You will.

ROWAN: It's been on my watch list for so long.

GABE: I got you.

ROWAN: Here's, okay, here's my – someone who's never watched it – impression of what I assume it's about because my, I'm going to tell you right now. And I cannot believe that this confession is coming out of me. My closest sort of brush with this movie was that in my extremely white high school at the age of 12, during a dance production, I was not sorted into this group because there were two groups of, like, the 12 and 13-year-olds, it was a different group. But they did a dance to the theme song of this movie.

GABE: Yes!

ROWAN: And it was the most, like, 12, 13-year-olds who can't really dance very well. Like, everything was very much on beat. There was nothing, like, not beat, it was like the slow bit of the beat as well. Like, very steady, very, like, bad like, finger gun type dance moves. I really wish I had a recording of it because I would-- that would be the thing that I sent you in return.

GABE: I'm incredibly happy about this.

ROWAN: And that's truly as close as I've gotten to this movie and I'm not gonna lie to you, Gabe, that was not in fact part of my gay awakening in any way shape, or form, even at the time.

GABE: Sure.

ROWAN: So, I really appreciate you giving me the opportunity to maybe discover-- discover this later on. In a way that isn't just a load of bad dancing.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Is it like-- the impression I get of it is that it is Wild West but there is some kind of like steampunk-y vibe to it. There's, like, some-- something in it that's a little bit --

GABE: Absolutely.

ROWAN: -- fun and fun and funky. Please tell me/the listeners at home. What is it?

GABE: I, look, that movie starts with Will Smith shirtless in a water tower. I, god!

ROWAN: Say no more, Gabe.

GABE: Its-- it.

ROWAN: Please say more.

GABE: This-- this man in hot pants all over this hot damn movie, I have not seen a man like that in leather that much unless it was at a very specifically designated party. So, this movie was just making some dreams come true. Watching him spin a pistol, no-- no double entendre intended, it-- it was, like, maybe I do like the Wild West more than I thought.

ROWAN: I was a pirate. I was a pirate kid, but now I-- am I a cowboy kid?

GABE: You look.

ROWAN: Damn. It's so confusing.

GABE: Cowboys ride.

ROWAN: Oh my gosh. I mean, was there anything to it? Other than the hot, hot bod of Will Smith? Was there-- was there anything else or?

GABE: I mean, it was decent.

ROWAN: I'm not gonna lie to you, Gabe. You really-- I was-- I was hoping you're gonna sell it to me. I don't know if Will Smith's hot can necessarily take me through into the story, but I do appreciate.

GABE: Do you like Sofia Vergara? Do you like Sofia Vergara?

ROWAN: Oh, see now-- now it's getting a little bit more interesting.

GABE: So, I'm-- excuse me, not Sophia Vergara. It was Salma Hayek.

ROWAN: Oh, you know what? Equally as an onboard.

GABE: She is in it. She-- she wears a bodice. I think she keeps, like, a gun underneath, like, her left thigh or, like, in her right boob.

ROWAN: I love-- I love weapons where there aren't meant to be weapons, you know, weapons where you're like, "Oh, that was a little surprise. Okay, this is not where I thought you were gonna be."

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: This is-- maybe not safe, but we'll take it.

GABE: Yeah, no, she is-- she is in it. She is hot as hell and she makes it work.

ROWAN: I love that. I will say-- it's, I mean, speaking of weapons that just don't really seem safe. I truly could spend the rest of my life contemplating that scene in Wonder Woman where she has a sword just down her back. Yeah, I fully in my head have, like, replayed that Wonder Woman scene where she takes a sword, like, out of her own spine. And I'm like, "No, in no point does this make logical sense, but the vibes are there.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: That's all I really care about.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: I'll take it. In terms of these, like, the order that you've put these in, was this the order of– of, like, age when this came up for you? Or was this just, do you have a sense of which one was first? Like, which one was kind of the-- or is it just a big soup pack?

GABE: It was– it was definitely Wild Wild West was-- was first. Pirates of the Caribbean, then, like, more of like, when I watched Aladdin, I was like, not much older, but still old enough to, like, kind of have a better gauge of it. And then, Avatar was probably the most recent of, like, these movies.

ROWAN: Mhmm.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: I find myself, and I know that Jazza as well, like, we're very similar ages, find ourselves really looking-- when we are looking back at this media that we connected with, or that we were interested in, it very much is like, none of this was explicitly gay. Like, we're not looking back at something and being like, "Oh, I saw this character come out as gay. And then I was like, Oh, that might be me." It was more like, "Hmm, something's going on here, and it wasn't until later that that stuff was kind of available to us. We knew about it. And like, I very specifically, remember, like, the only things that talked about being gay were things that were probably not appropriate for children to be watching. No, because there were things that were like Queer as Folk stuff like that. And I definitely feel like I watched those things kind of ironically, because I think a lot of people probably think that keeping-- keeping gay people out of media was, like, helping children. And I'm like, "Well, I fully was exposed to non-- non sort of child friendly gay media beforehand, because there was no alternative." And so, I'm kind of wondering, like, where on that kind of timeline, you are at? Like, did you ever feel like there was any, like, explicitly queer media when you were growing up? Was that something that you were able to seek out? Or that you're able to find? Or was it very much still, like, "No, I was waiting until I was an adult before that stuff started to sort of appear for me."

GABE: I think I never-- actually I never really, like, sought it out. Because I had just-- I had just interpreted it to fit however I was feeling. And there-- because there is-- there's, like, a lack when people will-- if people don't explicitly say it. And there's-- there's a whole different experience when it's like, a real confirmation. But then I hit a point, I don't know when it was, when I was like, I had moments where I liked it when it wasn't fully clear, because then it could mean whatever I wanted it to mean to me.

ROWAN: Yeah. Yeah.

GABE: And we definitely need more of a representation where it's-- it's so blunt and distinct. Like, like, Shriek Week. Like, Shriek Week is queer as hell. It's very clear. Many of the characters are non-binary, all of the characters have varied sexualities that, like, I had notes on. And it just only mattered if it came up in game for, like, the people to romance. Some of the people have been seeking out gay, poly, general queer relationships. And it was-- it was so intentional, because it was so lacking in a lot of the games that I played. But I also-- I play a character on a show [33:30], and he's bi. And it's just never come up because no one's asked. So, I've been-- I've been trying to leave and trying to find more things that-- that I can interpret however I wanted to or however it, like, could it be meaningful to me.

ROWAN: Yeah, I'm kind of interested to know from you, like, with queer stuff, I guess it's easier to interpret, whereas --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- if we're talking about you being, like, a black queer person, --

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: -- it's harder to, like, interpret. And as you're talking about, like, very much, I guess, like Avatar style or non-human entities that you can decide to code as black.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Like, it's more difficult to be like, "Oh, I'm just gonna read this white person as black." So, did you find that it was easier for you to kind of, like, seek out media where you felt represented as a black person, and then kind of see the queerness within that rather than I guess, vice versa?

GABE: Absolutely. God, it's a weird thing to think about, but I've realized, like, even in a person representation, I am a very public facing black queer person. And it's why I try so hard to present myself in a way that also, like, is really, like, relatable. Like, I don't-- I don't want to create or facilitate parasocial relationships, but I do want people to be able to see me as a person of color, queer person who's just doing the thing and is also just a person. I don't-- I don't want them to see me as an unachievable representation for themselves, trying to find those notions in media, because I want-- I want notions in media where it's a big deal. And I also want notions in Media where it's just normal. I like when people are excited to see me as that representation. And I also like when people see me as a normal part of that representation, if that makes sense.

ROWAN: Yeah.

GABE: And that's-- that's part of why it's so hard. Like, I feel like it's so hard to find it in Media because we get moments where it's so rare to see that straight and distinct representation in a blunt way, that it's always something we have to be loud about. Because it's so minute and miniscule in its availability. And it's, yeah, it's hard.

ROWAN: Yeah, kind of like a drop in the ocean that you kind of have to be like, "Hello, I'm here," I guess for the people who need to see it.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: It's so easy to miss if you don't know exactly where to look at the internet/creative endeavors, movies, books, it's like a big place out there in trying to find. I am really lucky that I, like, know a lot about queer media. Like, obviously, that's kind of something for me that I could, if someone asked me to, like, give them recommendations, like, I pretty much off the top of my head will be able to give them stuff.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: But when you're-- when I speak to people who are, like, queer themselves, and actually really want to know about queer media, a lot of them have, like, never heard of half of this stuff, because it is that question about, yeah, where would I go to-- to seek it out. And I think that when you-- you find one person on, like, Tumblr, or Instagram or TikTok or-- or Twitter to follow, you sort of end up down a rabbit hole of finding a ton of other people, but you kind of need to-- there needs to be a break in that algorithm to allow you to find those people. And sometimes, I mean, obviously, you're on-- you're on TikTok and-- and there have been a lot of discussions about the way that TikTok kind of pushes white creators to the front.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Pushes, like, certain content creators to the front. And that's, you know, been something there have been protests about. And so, it's that, I guess I understand the idea of being blatant with it and being very open-- open with it if you're willing to be because it is something that it's difficult to-- to find sometimes.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: Even for people who are really excited to see it, because it reflects who they are.

GABE: So-- so this-- so this actually kind of relates, like, the last thing that I was mentioning.

ROWAN: Oh my God, look at us segueing in.

GABE: Exactly. And a lot of one of it I like, in some ways, anime, because anime has definitely become better with more queer representation. And making it be, like, more clear and more forward facing even though a lot of things are still very reserved. But anime also can have more feminine or femme representations of men, which I definitely think helps lead into queer representation. But it's also a conflict, because one of the things that is so terrible with anime and manga, that a lot of the fan base, like, drives me up the wall is I really get upset with fetishization of, like, gay or like bi men in relationships and these things by fan bases, because it's never just a thing that happens. It's-- it's more that, like, no, these characters have to be gay because they're friends. I don't feel like I get to enjoy meaningful, gay or bi men relationships in a lot of media in general, because it ends up being, like, fetishized. Especially by some queer people in general, or not even necessarily queer people, like, just femme people are, like, Well, look-- look at these two men who have to love each other." And especially as people who are not men, I really get annoyed when I see Media or fans try to make that happen. Or it's like, it's-- it's like men cannot be together. Like, it's-- like, it's a calm, normal thing that we can enjoy or appreciate.

ROWAN: You mean, like, being likd, to queer characters can't be friends, or like...

GABE: Yes, yeah, like to --

ROWAN: Any characters can't be– just be friends.

GABE: Two queer characters can't be friends. And it's especially if it's men.

ROWAN: I think about this a lot that actually, you know, these like tests like the Bechdel test, stuff like that. And there's a lot of debate around like, whether they're useful or what they actually show, and all this kind of stuff. And I think, like, at the heart of it, it's about if you only have a very small amount of representation of a particular group, you can only show a certain amount of story of experiences. And as soon as you open that up to, like, multiple people with that identity, it leaves so much more space --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- to have loads of different ones of these experiences, which is why I really, really have enjoyed media where it's like, "Hey, let's explore loads of different people with this identity."

GABE: Exactly.

ROWAN: Whether that is, like, on the queer side, you've obviously got things like cucumber banana tofu, which if you're not from the UK, I don't know if you-- if that's, like, made its way across the pond.

GABE: No, it just sounded very funny and it made me go.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah, it is. It's very much on purpose, so it was three different shows. So, cucumber and banana were, like, television shows. And then, tofu was, like, an online show. And it was from Russell T. Davies, who is like the absolute OG fucking goat of queer TV.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: So, he was the guy who, like, originally created Queer as Folk, and then went on, he's done Years and Years. He did It's a Sin, kind of basically, he was the first person to put queer characters on children's TV in the UK.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: Doctor Who.

GABE: That's awesome.

ROWAN: Like, he-- he created Jack Jack Harkness. Like, he's just-- he's just, like, an amazing person.

GABE: I love that character so much.

ROWAN: I adore Russell T. Davies, and like, he has done so much. And he's had a really awful time of it, he lost his partner and kind of had to be a carer for his partner for a while, and then tragically lost him. And so, he kind of came out of that, kind of using the experience and using the pain after having this kind of time to mourn, to-- to write it, to send, to create. It's to send and put it out there, and I feel like he's just got more and more stuff to do, but hit a lot of his stuff. It kind of ends up being, here's a whole group of people who are queer.

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: What are they going to do about it? I know that the film Pride, one of my favorite films of all time, which we just did a movie club episode about. And one of its biggest strengths is that it has this whole, like, range of queer voices that are outspoken, that are more conservative, that are newly out, that have been out for years, that are older, that are younger. Like, and that allows you to have these kinds of disagreements or, especially when you look at audiences from outside of that identity looking in, you don't ever have them looking in and being like, "Look, this gay character said this, or I guess, this black character, this disabled character. Like, they said this, or they think this or they do this and therefore kind of using it," because I don't want-- I never want, you know, marginalized creators to feel self-censored by what people --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- outside of their identity might take from what they want to discuss, especially when we're talking about, like, intra community issues. So, things that are, like, actual issues within that community, that it's, like, "Hey, so like, obviously, negative stereotypes are bad. But sometimes people do fit those stereotypes and we maybe need to talk about it."

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: So, yeah, I really-- I-- I totally get what you mean around those kind of the idea of if you've got these characters, and they have to fit into a particular box, they have to, like, be romantically linked if they're gay, which I think also does, I don't know if you've experienced this, but I feel like it often kind of trickles out into real life, this kind of assumption of like --

GABE: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: -- oh my God, I know a gay person, do you want to date them?

GABE: Yup.

ROWAN: My sister's actually a lesbian, you should get married. And you're like, "I don't know if that's--"

GABE: No, that's-- that's not how that works. I don't know this person. It's-- that has happened to me in real life. I was-- I was hanging out with a friend of mine that's gay. And someone asked, like, "Have you guys ever kissed before?" I'm like, "No."

ROWAN: Why would you say that?

GABE: Why? We-- we've known each other for, like, three years. We're very good friends. We're not attracted to each other.

ROWAN: What is this? I do think that my-- I was gonna say you could just say that to-- to every straight person in your life. Just every time you see them, they just comment, everyone, you go partially like, "You can make-- you kiss them. You kiss them. God, I just thought."

GABE: No, but I wish.

ROWAN: I just thought-- they would be Oh, they also. I mean, I feel like "Are the straight people. okay?" is my favorite internet meme, because, like, the whole conversation about, like, "Can men and women be friends?" I'm like, "What's wrong with you, people?"

GABE: God, I-- Litter-- Okay. I literally was having a conversation with someone in a bar, and then the person left. It was-- it was-- and it was-- it was a woman. And the person left, and then my friends were like, "Gabe, why didn't you ask for her number?" I don't. I don't know her.

ROWAN: We were just having a chat, you guys.

GABE: Yeah, we were having a great conversation. She graduated Nursing School. Don't be weird about this.

ROWAN: Oh my gosh. I would love to know your-- do we-- how-- what number are we on? Are we on number four, number five? I can't remember how many we still have left to go.

GABE: Well, that was-- that was five because I --

ROWAN: That was five, loved it.

GABE: -- like, anime in general, so that was --

ROWAN: Amazing.

GABE: -- that was five. But we could-- we could do a quick bonus.

ROWAN: Oh my god. Yes. Let's do a bonus .

GABE: Acane. Like, arcane recently.

ROWAN: Oh, okay. Okay.

GABE: The Lesbian representation in Arcane, that's not subtle. It's not just for interpretation. It's clear, even confirmed by, like, designers on Twitter. It's clear and gorgeous. I love it.

ROWAN: I love that. I love that we've got, like, a new entry, I guess. Something that's more-- that's more recent for you. I mean, do you-- I think that's really-- that is really interesting. You've talked at the beginning about this journey of, like, being openly queer, and specifically, I guess to an audience or online being more of a recent thing. Do you feel like you have settled enough into, like, your identity or who you are that it feels like a solid thing that when you are encountering new media, it's not necessarily showing you anything new about yourself, or do you think you're still, and I don't mean still, like, catch up Gabe because I don't think there's necessarily an end to that. A lot of people will, like, continue discovering new things about themselves. And it's not, like, a bad thing. But I'm kind of wondering where you are in that process, I guess.

GABE: It's been a whole lot better, especially recently, because even with queer media, also, a lot of it is white queer media. So, there's like, a weird middle ground of, like, "Do I belong? Or do I not belong?" Because the-- the experience can be different, even if it's not substantially different, if it's still different. There's queer media of what you see is two white people that are gay or bi or two white lesbians. And it is excited, and cheered for, and celebrated, but queer media with two people of color, or a person of color with another queer person that is white and media is so much fewer and far between. And it's-- it's definitely that, like, like, She-Ra is a great example, because you have the two gay dads. But I would, like, anyone that's listening, I challenge you to try to think of how much queer media you can think of where there is two queer people of color that are represented in that queer media, and it's hard to find it. One of the queer movies that I loved recently, well, it had two queer characters, The Old Guard, that's it. Yeah, I loved that movie. And I loved-- I loved the-- the queer media representation, because it... it was just right, it was just good. It was just fun. It just felt right. There was that whole extra layer of, like, they've been together for years, and years, and years and years. And were still incredibly close. And so, as we see more of the diversity and representation in it, I do start to see more of myself in it. And it's slow, I see a lot more of it in, like, indie projects, or like games or things like that. Like, individual novels and such, will have way wider visual cast. Or even-- even, like, tabletop shows. Like, they'll-- they'll have a bunch of the queer relationships with people of all shapes and colors and sizes. And I'm a very fortunate person that, like, I am incredibly fit without really have to-- having to try to be, but I don't think we also get, like, very much great representation of fat queer relationships at all. And it's-- it's something that I think of not even just for myself, but like, I've plenty of fat queer friends, who also fully acknowledge and want people to, like, understand that being fat isn't a bad thing. But when you are fat, and queer, people look at you differently, are treated differently. And because of that, the media representation is so few and far in between, and that sucks.

ROWAN: Yeah.

GABE: I've had a better experience with media representation, in a sad way, because I've stopped looking to mainstream media to give me that.

ROWAN: Absolutely.

GABE: Because like I-- I don't have high expectations for what they will do to represent these things. Because oftentimes, the people who are in those positions to do it are not a representation of us, or you, or me. But the people who are, are putting these things out there. And then, we give them a chance to challenge and not necessarily compete, but maybe, like, almost meet those moments, and meet those representations and meet that excitement.

ROWAN: Absolutely. I think that there's some really interesting, I guess, there's it's kind of that double-edged sword thing of when you have people who are being given the opportunities, you might end up having something that's more mainstream, but you most likely will have a lack of the people who are being represented in the actual creative team.

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: And then you've got things that are really indie that maybe don't have a strong release that you can't really stream easily in different places. And those are the ones that have a really kind of unique voice to them, have a really authentic voice, but maybe don't have a strong budget. Like, didn't have, like, particularly good quality in a lot of-- in a lot of cases. Like, had a lot of heart to them, which is like very much the story of, like, --

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: -- queer cinema in general. Just because I literally earlier on was like, "I love to give recommendations to people," if there is anyone who's watching who was like, "Hmm, I would like to see some, like, black queer movies that have, like, black queer people at the heart of the creation." If you have not already seen because I feel like Moonlight and Tangerine --

GABE: Oh yeah.

ROWAN: -- are probably ones that people are like, "Oh, yes, those are the ones that I kind of know." Black British Excellence, that is Campbell Ex. Oh my gosh, watch that live.

GABE: Oh, yeah.

ROWAN: That's incredible. The Watermelon Woman obviously is an unbelievable movie. Like, I love that film so much. I was really lucky to see it as, like, a remastered version at the British Film Institute. They did, like, a --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- screening of it. It was beautiful and brilliant. I've not seen Naz and Maalik but it's meant to be amazing. It was, I want to say 2015, 2016 and it was basically, like, this sort of acclaimed award winning film that I haven't annoyingly been able to see yet. If you're wanting to go, like, elsewhere, obviously, Rafiki is a Kenyan film that has stunning cinematography, really brilliant chemistry between the leads. There's a lot out there, but it is, as you said, like, difficult to-- to find stuff. And something that might be interesting for people who are looking for one of identities within or that crossover into the queer spectrum that don't get a lot of love. There is a Kenyan film about being intersex that was sort of a documentary that was filmed over three years called Sydney and Friends from a couple of years ago that also might be of interest to people. But go... go seek out this stuff. Don't rely on what pops up on, like, the Netflix, LGBT tab, which is not necessarily --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- the most useful in terms of finding stuff because I think Gabe is absolutely right. Some of the best stuff is going to be things that are happening at, like, your local film festivals, or that have, like, limited releases or-- or kind of indie things on YouTube. So, definitely check those out and kind of be --

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: -- be willing to go with, like, the authenticity and harbor project rather than just what has the flashiest sort of cameras and-- and lighting, and editing and stuff like that.

GABE: Yeah, because, like, this stuff is out there. And it-- it's-- it's a pain in the ass that we have to seek it out.

ROWAN: Mhmm.

GABE: But when you-- when you find the one that really sticks with you, it makes it. Like, I-- I've talked about it more than once, but, like, I am the storyteller on Shriek Week on Dimension 20. Dimension. 20 is, like, the tabletop role playing side of College Humor. It is essentially-- if you're not familiar with tabletop stuff, it is essentially a narrative improv with rules and mechanics tied into it that are basically linked to, like, dice that we roll that helps us determine if something works, if something doesn't work. And I had a cast of four people playing characters. And my job was basically to facilitate the story, the different other characters they would meet, the way the narrative would go, get the different locations, and what was happening in those moments. And like, NPCs, so non-player characters, were the characters that I was coming up with. And it was kind of, like, a Scooby Doo as, like, monster kind of dating sim dating game thing. And all of the different characters had pronouns that they used. They all had sexual identities, they all had gender identities, they all had likes, dislikes, hobbies that I made for a list of 15 different characters, that somehow I managed to introduce all of them in the first episode. And one of the nicest things was, like, there was-- they were even, like, diverse in nationalities. There was the chupacabra character who was he/him, and he had a skateboard that had the Puerto Rican flag on it because the chupacabra is a Puerto Rican myth. And it was a way to represent so many different aspects of someone and an identity and then represent it. There was Yadd Wega, which was our character that was, like, referencing the Baba Yaga. And we had a Van Helsing character who was neutral-- a gender neutral person that was bi and would also use he/him, but like, preferred the they/them which was, like, kind of a self insert for me, as I was also kind of, like, exploring on aspects of my identity, like, my queer identity. And when I had people reaching out, like, excited or emotional, happy to see, like, there's, like, just gay characters in this show that I watch. And it's just a normal thing for everyone. I don't think any of the characters were just simply, like, the player cards, on the end of them were just simply straight. Everyone had a different gender identity.

ROWAN: Like, with these kind of roleplay games, and obviously, Dungeons and Dragons is the one that a lot of people will be most familiar with, but there are so many of them out there. And a lot of them are, like, very specifically built for queer characters and queer players and people to explore that. And that --

GABE: Yeah.

ROWAN: -- like, what we were talking about the-- the kind of lack of funding or the lack of access, that actually this is the kind of like very immediately accessible media where, obviously with Dimension 20, you have, like, an actual production going on with it, but --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- you could just as easily, like, grab some friends, start streaming, and tell their story and, like, be the one who gets to tell the tale, the kind of theater of the imagination thing. You don't need all these sets and lights and fancy budget and cameras and editors and color grading and all this kind of stuff, like, you would for making like a TV show or a film. You can decide to tell your own story, you know, as it goes along. And there's some amazing people who are making this stuff that is, like, super diverse, that has all of these voices that you would just not see otherwise. I know that trans [54:49] is, like, doing stuff where it's like, "Hey, we're just going to be, like, trans people making these characters and we're all going to be interacting together and this is going to be us owning and telling our own story." And I think that that's really kind of exciting. I think unless there's anything else you wanted to chat about, I think we can do, like, a sort of-- we can do our concluding remarks.

GABE: No, I, that sounds good. Thank you for having me. This was fun. And like kind of cathartic that I didn't even know I wanted.

ROWAN: Oh my god, thank you so much for coming on. I was me and Jazza, we went through a load of ideas about different types of episodes we wanted to do with guests, and we knew we wanted to do hot takes, but we were like, "We want something else that people can come and feel really passionate about, but not necessarily have to, like, especially if we invited anyone from the film industry, wouldn't have to, like, burn any bridges." So, something that's positive, and I've really, I've so enjoyed, like, this being the first recording. I'm really glad that we've gotten to, like, chat, because we know each other from the online world, but we haven't really been able --

GABE: Yes.

ROWAN: -- to obviously either see each other or kind of talk like this. So, it's been so, so fun to --

GABE: Oh my god.

ROWAN: -- to hang out on the-- on the old podcast recording.

GABE: Absolutely.

ROWAN: This is how I talk to my friends now, everyone. I just invite them on to this podcast, and then I have to put it on my calendar --

GABE: That's smart.

ROWAN: -- and it's work so I-- I get to put-- I get to put it in the schedule.

GABE: What I'm going to do is I'm going to make a podcast and then make you come on it so we can just--

ROWAN: That's how it works.

GABE: But-- but mine will be games that, like, shaped-- shaped you.

ROWAN: Oh my god. Amazing. And then I'll have to be, like, snap, tiddlywinks, I'll pick some really good-- I'll pick some, like, really niche British games. Some were like British bulldog. I'll just --

GABE: Tiddlywinks made you gay?

ROWAN: Yeah, Tiddlywinks made me gay. I mean, listen, listen, just the name. You'll not say Tiddlywinks made you straight, Gabe.

GABE: That's okay. That's actually very fair. No. Okay, you got me there.

ROWAN: Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me.

GABE: This was a pleasure.

ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast related. If you enjoyed this episode, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our patrons really are the backbone of the podcast, and in exchange for your support. We have some great Tier Rewards set up over there. One of the perks on our Patreon is a queer movie watch along every last Saturday of the month, exclusively for our patrons. It's very fun, so, you know, come and join us. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions which has a lot more amazing sibling podcasts to ours that you should definitely check out. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you are primed for our next episode. Thank you so much for listening, and hopefully you will hear from us very soon.

Transcribed by: John Matthew M. Sarong

Single All the Way (Queer Christmas)

22 december 2021 | 64 min

Hot Takes with NotCorry

9 december 2021 | 55 min

We are joined for our first EVER Hot Takes by the incomparable Corry. Corry is Scottish, and a super-star co-host of popular science based podcast ‘Sci Guys’. You can find him on Tik Tok, YouTube and Instagram with lots of crunchy nuggets for your brain.

We like Corry, send him love.

Find Us Online

- Twitter: https://twitter.com/QueerMoviePod

- Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thequeermoviepodcast

- Website: http://www.queermoviepodcast.co.uk/

- Multitude: @MultitudeShows

Production

- Hosts: Rowan Ellis and Jazza John

- Editor: Julia Schifini

- Executive Producer: Multitude

- Artwork: Jessica E. Boyd

About The Show

Queer Movie Podcast is a queer movie watch party hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John. Join us as we research and rate our way through the queer film canon, one genre at a time. From rom-coms to slashers, contemporary arthouse cinema to black & white classics, Queer Movie Podcast is a celebration of all things gaaaaay on the silver screen. New episodes every other Thursday.

Transcript

ROWAN: Welcome to the Queer Movie Podcast, celebrating the best and worst in LGBTQ+ Cinema one glorious genre at a time. I'm Rowan Ellis and welcome to one of a couple of brand new types of episodes that we'll be releasing between our usual queer Movie Club episodes. This is hot takes, where I'll be joined by a guest who's come ready to go with three Queer Movie hot takes that they'll need to persuade me of in three arguments or less. I'm very excited to have my friend and shameless Marvel fanboy Corry as our first ever guest of the show. Hi, Corry.

CORRY: Hello, Rowan. And hello everyone listening. Wow.

ROWAN: What an intro.

CORRY: I love that your intro for me now is always Marvel, despite the fact that I'm not always talking about Marvel. I feel like I should have bought a Marvel thing today.

ROWAN: Here's the thing, if you send me 1000 voice memos about every Marvel show that's ever come out. That's going to be my go to introduction for you, you need to send me voice notes about whatever you want to be known for. In order for me to now change your introduction.

CORRY: You're you're already getting yourself in to so--you're you're, you're not going to enjoy all the voices I'm going to be sending you after this then unfiltered--

ROWAN: No I love a good voice mate. So you are our very, very first guest on this new show. And you have not told me your hot takes in advance which I'm very excited to find out and and hear all of your reasonings and your ar--and your arguments and all that stuff. So I have no idea if I'm going to be fully in support of what you're saying. Or utterly outraged at everything you have to bring to the table today. So would you like to hit me with hot take number one?

CORRY: Okay. I think hot take number one is an easier one. Hot take number one, all love triangles would be improved, if the characters were bi, every single one.

ROWAN: I am obsessed with this already. Okay, so take take me through this. Give me Give me your argument.

CORRY: Okay. So, before I do little argument number one, I'll just give a little bit of an explanation.

ROWAN: Oh, yeah. Give me the explanation.

CORRY: When I say love triangle, I mean any love polygon. So any any number of shapes you want for people to be in love would be improved by all of the characters, not just some, all of the characters being by I'm saying this out loud. I'm realizing how ridiculous this sounds

ROWAN: No commit commit to the bit, Corry.

CORRY: Argument number one, is that it is more interesting, because there are more interactions, all right. You've got a normal love triangle. Okay, let's use Twilight as an example. Something that I haven't even I haven't even watched all the Twilight movies. Twilight, you've got Bella, you've got Edward and you've got Jacob, right? And Jacob and Edward both like Bella, but they can't like each other because they're straight boys. You know, it doesn't work.

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: You've just got Bella is this intersection. But if Edward and Jacob were to like each other, boom. What if Edward and Jacob got together? That's another interaction there. It's a perfect way to sort of have some more. There's there's more going on there more character interactions. You don't have just people, "Oh, I hate you because you want the same girl that I want". It's a case of what if I want you too?

ROWAN: Ooh.

CORRY: More interactions, means more better.

ROWAN: Okay, so already, I have a a potential comment on the example that you've chosen to use, which is that and I think that because you haven't finished all of the Twilight movies or books. This might have passed you by and that's why you've chosen this particular example. But are you aware that this loved supposed love triangle is in fact a love square? And the fourth corner of the square is Bella and Edward's infant child.

CORRY: I'm look I'm well aware of Renesmee and I detest her name. I detest almost everything that happens is to do with that character. And I like to just pretend that she doesn't exist, because then we have to get into the conversation of does imprinting, did that come into love triangles? Is it not a love triangle and then an imprinting square if you add that in? I don't know.

ROWAN: So I think your hot take is your hot take is love polygons would be improved if everyone was bisexual, and there was no imprinting like in brackets asterisk, like also no imprinting.

CORRY: Oh, absolutely. I think also no Imprinting is it's just an addendum to my life at this point. That's how that's how much impact these films that I haven't fully watched have had on me, yes.

ROWAN: Did, yeah, just assume every hot take from now on both Corry's and you know what everyone who comes to the show has an asterisk, that's also also no imprinting. And I fully support that I've got no arguments here.

CORRY: Fantastic precedent to set.

ROWAN: So okay, hi--hi hit me with your second argument, cuz you're making a strong one so far, this does seem like it would add add to the drama add to the connections.

CORRY: Okay, good, I'm glad. I've built this one, just I I've actually structured this one, I think quite well. So the first argument is more interactions, but more interactions means more outcomes, okay. So if there's more outcomes, then you you're left guessing like, what's going to happen? Is Edward going to end up with Jacob? Is Bella going to end up with Edward or Ja--? Who knows? We don't know. There are more outcomes. And so you don't you know, usually when you're watching a film, you're like, Oh, well, this character is obviously gonna end up with that character. But if there's a love square, gosh, you've got so many different interactions and people can people can end up with each other. Also also, you can have the coveted polycule. You can have a little get a little thruple going on there as well. So many things happening. You left guessing you don't know films just become far, far better. Because there's so many more options to choose from. You don't have to go with just like, you know, the first boyfriend or the other one the bad boy that comes in. In the second film. Again, I'm talking about Twilight. I hope that I'm being accurate because I haven't seen it. Well, maybe the Hunger Games. What if Gale and Peeta ended up together huh?

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: That'd be interesting. What if Katniss just left because she doesn't care about either of them. That would make more sense.

ROWAN: You're not wrong it would, it in fact would. My favorite part of, I can't remember if it's in the films, but in the books when she's trying to decide between them. She functionally is like, Okay, well, this one bakes bread. But this one hunts, but I can hunt. But I can't bake bread, I guess it's Peeta. And yeah, I feel like that would be maybe improved if the boys had had other options. And just waiting to see whether she needed someone who could bake bread or hunt more.

CORRY: We--this is because I think this is a really a really good example as well. I'm glad you brought this up, because I'm pretty sure that well, he bakes bread and he hunts is in the book, because there's not really a huge love triangle in the book. It's more focused on, you know, the PTSD of having to kill numerous children.

ROWAN: Mmm mmm, Of course, of course.

CORRY: Yeah. Which the film interestingly chose to set aside in favor of which hot boy do I want. Now if the film chose to set that aside in favor of which hot boy do I want? But also, do the hot boys want each other? Perfect. It it's so much better because which hot boy do I want would absolutely take over your life in place of that PTSD from--

ROWAN: From the Hunger Games.

CORRY: --getting rid all of those kids. Yeah.

ROWAN: This is very much reminding me of you know those puzzles where there's a shape and then in the shape, there are triangles. And it's like how many triangles in this shape? And at first--

CORRY: Yeah.

ROWAN: --I think there's just one triangle and then there's so many more. I feel like this is like there's so many combinations you could go to because we're only talking right now about Edward, Bella and Jacob or Katniss, Gale and Peeta. But you could have Katniss, Gale, Peeta, Edward, Bella and Jacob.

CORRY: That's I've got I've got one I've got I've got one who like all the stops.

ROWAN: Okay, take me--

CORRY: A Midsummer Night's Dream.

ROWAN: Huh.

CORRY: Boom. Every single person falling in love with every single other person across gender lines.

ROWAN: Incredible.

CORRY: And then ending up together in the end. Wow. Perfect. Even get Bottom in there. Amazing.

ROWAN: He, yeah, obviously. I doubt there was no question that the that Bottom was going to be part of his equation. But Bottom human or or Bottom donkey?

CORRY: I think the top was donkey, the bottom was human.

ROWAN: There we go. It's all--

CORRY: Right?

ROWAN: --all of the above. This, this is making a lot of sense to me. To be honest, I kind of wanted to find some kind of hole in your argument. But ultimately, it's just making sense to me. And I think that as well, because you you added in there polyamory I feel like that adds another level to it. Which I only appreciate more. You know what I mean? Like this is all this is all making sense. Okay, I guess here's a counter argument. Are we tired of love triangles all together? Is there a hotter take where we just take love triangles off the table?

CORRY: I thought this, I'm glad that you've said this. Because I've got argument number three.

ROWAN: Hit me.

CORRY: Which is, I think a direct answer to this. The reason that love triangles are boring. We don't want love triangles anymore. It's because there's no stakes. It's which pretty boy will you choose? Which pretty girl will you choose? Non-binary people don't come into this because non-binary people aren't in films. But if if we have every character in a love triangle be bisexual, there are more stakes. Because of the two things I've said already. The more interactions and more outcomes. There's more at stake here. There's more to lose, there's more to gain. It's way more interesting. It's way more exciting. The only reason love triangles are boring though is because we've got to see which which straight couple is going to be straight. But if they could all end up together, perfect resolution, everyone's happy and no one sad. It's so much better.

ROWAN: Have you seen this particular hot taken action before? Do you have any examples of love triangles that you've seen? Where we you know, this is a theory right now, you're a science boy, from what I remember of science when I did to do it as a child, you got a hypothesis and you've got to test it. Do we have any examples currently or is this new waters that we're entering with this concept?

CORRY: I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to say the first Scooby Doo film is an example of this. I choose to believe that the Mystery Gang they are not they are not simply four friends. They are a polycule. They're they're a little group of polyamorous pals hanging out together solving mysteries.

ROWAN: So, far be it for me to question. The additional hot take you've added on to this one with the theory that the Scooby gang are in fact a polyamorous like quadrant and dog. What evidence Have you bought to me to to say that this is happening? And this is this is working as a relationship as a love square.

CORRY: I'm going to be honest, Rowan it's just vibes. It's just it's pure vibes.

ROWAN: And you know what that is the heart of Queer Cinema. To be honest, Corry, vibes is what we had for a very long time. We've only really had solid evidence for a short few decades. And so in in this court of Queer Cinema, vibes do count as evidence.

CORRY: Fantastic. I'm so glad, have I have I convinced you? Do I win? Have I have I won?

ROWAN: I wish I had some kind of sound effects to like a bell or something that could be like ding, ding, you've won. Yes, I fully already was on board. As soon as you said it. I I also think that this would be much more interesting. And I feel like this is a an immediate sell for me. If if someone was to come up to me and say, "Hey, read this book. It's got a love triangle. But it's a proper triangle". It's not just like an angle.

CORRY: Exactly.

ROWAN: Without a third line joining the the last two points. It is a full triangle. I'm there. I don't have to know anything else about the book like I'm intrigued. So yeah you already had me and and giving me those arguments giving those examples hinging it on Twilight, a bold move, but I think it paid off in the end because it is such a classic love triangle that I think could only be improved by the bold decision to not have one of them be in love with a fetus. So that that--

CORRY: Good Lord.

ROWAN: -- completely convinced. Ding ding ding. Would you like to bring me hot take number two? If on the hot on the hottakeometer. Is this spicier? Is this hotter?

CORRY: Yeah, I think this is, you know, I think it's increasing in levels of spice, you know--

ROWAN: Love that.

CORRY: It definitely in levels of my own personal spice. We're going to we're going to be getting very heated towards the end. This this--

ROWAN: I'm excited.

CORRY: --little one. I think it's a little bit hotter. In fact, I'm I'm so bold that I've included only a single single argument because I am so confident with this one.

ROWAN: Oh, wow. So listeners at home when I sent Corry the sort of instructions for preparing for this episode. I did say that he could try and convince me in three arguments or less. Now I was kind of thinking that he was going to prepare the three arguments. And then I might just be like, Nope, we only needed that one. It was good enough. But he everyone is so confident in this next hot take. It's only going to take one argument to persuade me and assumably you at home as well. Corry, take it away.

CORRY: Call Me By Your Name, the tentpole groundbreaking gay film of the summer, is not a gay film.

ROWAN: Huh. Everyone, pause for a moment to absorb that when me and Jazza conceived of this format. Truly, we could not have predicted the wild sentences that we're about to come our way from our first guest. Okay, you know what? I've I've absorbed it. I'm I'm I'm ruminating, my brain is going. Hit me with your one and only argument.

CORRY: The characters are not gay.

ROWAN: Okay, so, Corry.

CORRY: Let me elaborate.

ROWAN: For those for those at home who haven't seen this movie or or you know, somehow aren't familiar with it. Can you take us through the plot? Like what is what is this movie about? That might make people assume that these were gay characters?

CORRY: Well, for one thing, there is an awful lot of gay kissing, and sex. But I I I I still maintain that these characters are not gay. So let's use the actor's names because it's much easier for everyone to picture. So Armie Hammer and Timothée Chalamet are two men, two bros. Timothée Chalamet, he lives with his parents. They've gone to Italy for the summer. And Armie Hammer comes to you know, work with his dad, I think, I assume. And then they hit it off, there's there's a few sparks of love. And they start getting together, and it's a lovely time. And by the end, Armie Hammer has to go back home to America and ends up ending his relationship with Timothée Chalamet. And we find out at the end, that Armie Hammer has a wife that he's going to get married to. Very interesting.

ROWAN: Mmm.

CORRY: And also in the beginning Timothée Chalamet, he has a girlfriend.

ROWAN: Okay, so we have the background info. Give us the reasoning.

CORRY: So the reasoning here is, I think fairly simple. Everyone's called it, "Oh, it's the it's the gay film". Because the main sort of relationship of the film is two men. And so saying that that is a homosexual relationship is, it's kind of true. But also, everyone is very ready to invalidate the fact that at least one of the main characters seems somewhat enthusiastically attracted to women.

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: Right? So Timothée Chalamet, his character, has a girlfriend at at the beginning and has sex with her. And not in a sense of like, "Oh, gosh, I hope no one finds out my secret. I hope no one knows that I'm that I'm a big old gay". He seems happy enough with it, he seems good to go. I don't think there's any reason to assume that he is not attracted to women, just because he's attracted to a man. And, you know, obviously Armie Hammer's character at the end spoilers, I'm sorry. Those end up with a woman. Now. I think that's maybe a little bit more reluctant. But still, there is nothing sort of, as far as I'm aware explicitly in the film to suggest that these characters are both entirely gay men. And so I think saying that it's a gay film. It's not true, it's not true. And also, I really feel like the experiences are far more bisexual than they are anything else. Boom.

ROWAN: You know what? You you came out very controversially.

CORRY: I did.

ROWAN: You did a little twist in there. Because for a second, I was like, How is this boy going to convince me that that peach scene was straight? But you didn't do that at all--

CORRY: Well we all know what a peach emoji it's supposed to represent, right?

ROWAN: True Love and romance only. Yeah. You you this is this is. So confession time, everyone. And I can't believe I must do this on a podcast literally called the Queer Movie Podcast. I have not seen Call Me By Your Name.

CORRY: Wow, I--

ROWAN: Yeah.

CORRY: --didn't know that you hated bisexual men so much.

ROWAN: Yeah, it's it's it's been a real struggle for me. And I'm really coming to terms with it now live on the air. Yeah, I just there was just something about Timothée Chalamet, Armie Hammer, age gap romance that just wasn't calling me by any name. And I, so I haven't, I haven't done it. And there was part of me that kind of just assumed that at some point, we would do it for the podcast or for the watch alongs that we do on the discord. And that that would be the point at which I would watch it because I didn't know whether I would be able to do it. Sort of through my own volition on my own time.

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: But this is, from what I understand about the movie, this makes a whole lot of sense. And, you know, we're all it's all fun and games on the hot take show. But also, this is kind of an interesting point about the idea of bisexuality being kind of a raised from a lot of these discussions that something gets labeled as like a gay movie, or a gay classic or something like that. And I think it kind of does a disservice to both kind of communities, both identities that you have this real erasure of bisexuality at all from that kind of narrative around the movie. But then you also have gay people who are watching a movie where it's like, oh, this, this also isn't me like this is this is actually not for bi people, but this, this character is bisexual. And this is kind of been not marketed wrong. But like the discussion around it seems to be kind of lacking, and and not quite what what anyone was expecting. So that makes a lot of sense to me.

CORRY: Yeah, I mean, the thing is, you say marketing, which I think it is, in part, it is marketing. But also, I feel like everyone that watches it as well. But I mean, not to not to have a go at the gays. But even the community watching it will talk about it as the gay film, which is interesting, because I think, especially because this is about two men, you have this whole thing where men can't experiment with other men. Men can't show any interest in another man in any way without being labeled as gay.

ROWAN: Mmm.

CORRY: And bisexuality for a man is generally a case of, well, you're really gay, but you're just hiding it, you know?

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

CORRY: So and it it's interesting to see it even come in, in this sense of, oh, well, this is a film where the characters seem to quite explicitly be interested in both men and women. But we're gonna call it gay anyway. And I will understand if it didn't come into the plot, but the girlfriend is a fair part of sort of Ello's story as a character. And the sort of fiancee turned wife for Armie Hammer is a major, major thing that happens at the end of the film. So it's interesting to me that we we kind of very much ignore that for I guess, maybe more simple story of these two characters are our gay boys and love, both gay boy and gay men in love.

ROWAN: Yeah, that does make a lot of sense. I think that what you said about the idea of for bisexual men, there's this assumption of like, oh, you're really gay. And I think that for bisexual women, there is this idea of like, oh, you're really straight, but you just like to experiment a bit like it's just a bit of a double--

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: --and I think both of those are, you know, tie with the idea that being attracted to men is the priority and that everything else is going to be surplus to requirement, which you know, not a thing. But there we go.

CORRY: As a man, as a man, I think being attracted to at least man is very important. Me, me being attracted to me is very, very important--

ROWAN: For everyone.

CORRY: So for everyone, yes, I I would very much like to exist as an attractive being across all set lines of sexuality, you know, so I I can I can understand the patriarchy goal there. To--you can I can empathize with that. But no, no, seriously it is, it is really interesting as well, because I I think it also comes into how we describe those relationships in terms of, we've got homosexual relationships, which could include to people that aren't homosexual--

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: --technically, you know, and I think it's, I think it's just not necessarily bad or problematic. It's just an interesting and sometimes frustrating quirk of the language that--

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: --we use, you know.

ROWAN: I was gonna say, yeah, that language quirk of, how do you refer to things? Like, what are you trying to make clear, right? Like within this.

CORRY: Hmm.

ROWAN: Are you trying to make your own identity clear? Or the relationship between two people like, how do you describe a a bisexual relationship? When one person's bi, when two people are bi, when it's different genders, same genders. Like I think that that there's not necessarily expansive enough language for that--

CORRY: Hmm.

ROWAN: --to be like, immediately obvious from like one word, and it does have to be more complex. And maybe people are just bad at being complex. And it's a lot easier to just kind of use that use the slightly wrong word that says what you want to say about this relationship, which, you know, for people talking about Call Me By Your Name

is like, "Hey, gay, look look, we get some some gay"

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: Even if that's not actually accurate.

CORRY: Yeah, well, isn't it seen as gay rep. But it's it's, I don't think it really is gay representation, you know. I I do think it's just interesting. I I mean, personally, I think that if it is two bisexual people in a relationship, that that relationship isn't that relationship isn't a gay relationship necessarily, you know.

ROWAN: Or a straight one.

CORRY: Or a straight one, yeah. Which is, I think, an issue, I think it's a bisexual relationship relationship.

ROWAN: Uh-hmm.

CORRY: And I definitely think that when is two bisexual people, when if it's a bisexual person, the gay person or bisexual person, the straight person, it's a slightly different story. But when it's to bisexual people, I genuinely think that affect the relationship in a fairly unique way. But yeah, and also, I'm going to put it out there, just in case anyone's gonna come at me. My brain side has tried to tell me there, Come At Me By Your Name, if anyone tries to come at me by your name.

Yes, the characters could also be pansexual, or any other kind of polysexual. I'm going to leave that one up to you. But yeah, no, Call Me By Your Name, It's not a gay film. I've had that inside me since it came out. And I've not been I've not had an outlet for it. So thank you very much for for giving me that.

ROWAN: I'm so glad I could give it to you. I did want to also this is not necessarily about Call Me By Your Name, but because I think it's not quite you kind of hinted at the idea of maybe there being some, not necessarily coercion, but not necessarily enthusiastic relationship at the end for one of the characters with a woman.

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: And, you know, it wasn't so long ago that people were essentially like, forced into relationships that were straight relationships, if they were gay. How do you think about those sort of historic narratives? Or whether that's fictional or I guess, with with real people, where we do have this complicated relationship between you know, was this person bisexual? Because it was a woman who seemed to have relationships with women but married a man? Or can we label them as gay? Like, what what is your thoughts? I know, we're going slightly on a tangent here, but I do think it's kind of relevant--

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: --on like, can we label anyone in history in that way? Like, do do we know anything? For sure if we, if they didn't necessarily have the language to describe it. Like how do you as, as a bisexual person, kind of find bisexual people in history to feel like there's, you know, some kind of connection to or affiliation with or anything like that? Or is it is it not possible? Is it is it more of sort of like a nebulous queerness in history that, that we can't really map onto today's ideas of identity?

CORRY: Yeah, I think you, honestly, I think you hit the nail on the head with that last one. But I do have to say that us going on a tangent. Wow, who would have thought we do that?

ROWAN: I know. So out of character--

CORRY: Never once happened. Yeah, so no, I think that in in terms of sort of looking back through history, unless someone was is is explicitly described themselves in some way, yeah, I don't think you can apply on modern conceptions. Because even looking back not even 100 years ago, you have people describing themselves as transexual. Whereas now that's kind of out of fashion today. And there's a bunch of different words, some of which, honestly, I don't even necessarily want to use on this podcast.

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: Because I don't want to be too, too spicy. But there were words that people explicitly use to describe themselves, whereas nowadays, we might call them trans or we might call them non-binary. Or we might use any other kind of word that, you know, that's the thing. And this was like 50, 60 years ago, oh, wait no more than 50, 60 years ago. Because time continues to move forwards. But you know, less than 100 years ago, let's say, that these words were entirely different. So if you're, if we're going to look back through history, even to you know, sort of 100, 200 years ago, it becomes really, really difficult to sort of accurately use our own terms to apply to other people. And I don't think it's, I don't think it's actually terribly important to find representation of specific identities throughout history because ultimately specific identities it doesn't. It doesn't matter in that context, all that matters is this person wasn't straight or cisgender in some way, they sort of broke those normal societal conventions. In that sense, their specific identity is sort of not hugely relevant, so long as it's not, it it wasn't that relevant to themselves, you know. Because then we get into the whole issue of erasing anything that is not inherently binary, you know.

ROWAN: Mmm.

CORRY: Which is an issue in and of itself. Although if you do want to look back and see, I don't know a lady pirate that loved other lady pirates and say she was a lesbian pirate. I think that's ultimately fine. You're not really harming anyone, they're all dead, it's it's good. They're not going to be too wound up. But--

ROWAN: And also if they were, like, if if here's--

CORRY: Yup

ROWAN: --the thing though, if they were wound up about it, I don't necessarily see it as a bad thing. That a hot lesbian pirate ghost now wants vengeance on me. Like that, I'm not gonna lie Corry like that's almost the dream.

CORRY: Rowan, what are you doing after this? I think we have a spec script we need to write about a hot lesbian pirate haunting some. It's like--

ROWAN: We're on it. Sorry guys, we're gonna end the podcast early because me and Corry need to make millions with this genius idea.

CORRY: Haunting to lovers story.

ROWAN: Oh my--

CORRY: I love it.

ROWAN: --God.

[26:32]

[Transition Music to ADS]

ROWAN:

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[29:50]

[Transition Music]

ROWAN: Okay, so I think it's time to move on to the third and final hot take and from what you've said, so far, I'm anticipating this being the spiciest. This is, you know, we can only take one little drop of this hot sauce, because otherwise we would die. So take it away.

CORRY: Oh my gosh, I'm almost scared to say this. This is a piece of Queer Cinema that is very new, that you well know, I have had a very, very tumultuous relationship with for some time. And I actually struggled to find what exactly my hot take was, because I had to make sure that I'd be able to get through all of it in the allotted time. So I have I have come up with this single sentence. Everybody's Talking About Jamie is a bad film that exists to exploit and pander to cis white men, and straight people that are liberal, but find gays fun and cool.

ROWAN: You packed it into that sentence, okay. So for for anyone who doesn't know, Everybody's Talking About Jamie, it was originally a musical in the West End. And it recently got an adaptation on film, which is pretty accurate to the to the stage musical actually. It's they've kind of swapped--

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: --some songs around. But in generally, it's, it's there's not any kind of like, different ending to sending or anything like that. It's it's essentially it's like based on a true story. And it's about a boy and boy in England, who wants to become a drag queen. He's like 16 years old, it's his dream. And it's kind of him following his dream, and the pitfalls and the triumphs along the way. So very, very classic, kind of like British clash of cultures type movie like Billy Elliot, but more gay vibes, in terms of like the overall kind of foundations of of what the movie is trying to do. So Corry, hit me with your reasoning behind that extremely long sentence hot take that you just gave.

CORRY: Okay. So I think what I'll start with is the white men part. So I've said that it exists to sort to exploit and pander to cis white men, and let's say, liberal allies, in quotes. And the the white part is the very obvious thing of between the stage musical and the film, they changed the main character to white again. So initially, in the stage played, the character was white, because the real person is white. And then they had a good run of casting mixed race actors in this role, which was interesting, because otherwise, you know, other than a, you know, a couple of sort of, I think, two Asian characters. It's a very, it's a very white story. So this was an interesting little thing. But when they transitioned to the screen, they decided to remove that added little bit of diversity. And I I wonder why perhaps that a white face is a little bit more marketable to your target audience of liberal allies, and this white gay men who really seemed to see themselves in this story.

ROWAN: Yeah, so this is this is totally true. They had this lead character who was based on like, the actual Jamie. And then they kind of did this casting that wasn't just for one run, right? Like, I feel like there's been like two or three mixed race guys like in the role.

CORRY: Yeah.

ROWAN: And it wasn't just like a one off stunt casting kind of thing.

CORRY: It almost I would say, honestly, to the point where it was one of those things that it it kind of became a part of the role to an extent, you know. And it was, for me, it was interesting, because if you've, if you've seen the film, if you've seen the musical, you know, that the father, the dad, is very much kind of a macho man, he likes the football, and he just wants his son to be his son. He doesn't want his son to be weird and away with the fairies and you know, dressing up like a lady and all that and all that nonsense. Which I think having a black father in that role was a really interesting, it could be like, you know, even though it's a very minor role, it was an interesting little exploration of that sort of masculinity that is sort of pervasive in black men, the inability to sort of even reconcile with some kind of homosexuality. That was interesting to me that added like a nice little element to it. And I think that's what's important about sort of adding diversity in that way. That you can do it as a lateral move, you can do it if it doesn't add anything, you just want to add diversity, that is fine. That is an okay thing to do. But it is far better when you add some kind of diversity to it, you add an added identity, and it elevates by adding something new for example, making Harry Potter mixed race would add to the character in a really interesting way. I won't get into it right now.

ROWAN: I But I fully agree with you there. I to the point--

CORRY: [34:26]

ROWAN: --where sometimes I I look at like, I read fan, Harry Potter fanfic, I know I'm a terrible person still but like, I'll read Harry Potter fanfiction or look at fan art. And there'll be a moment where I'm like, they will say something that makes it clear like in the fanfiction that this Harry is white and for a second. I'm like, wait, what? And then I'm like, oh, because yeah, he is he he is in the books.

CORRY: Yeah.

ROWAN: I kind of forgot that for a minute. Because it's it's so people have people the fandom of like, basically, it's been like, okay, Joanne, like, sure. We're just gonna do the better version of this and I fully support it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense that there's these these elements in the story that kind of get improved. And I do think that because they did make minor but some changes, they also potentially had the opportunity within the movie to say, "Okay, we originally wrote this role about this white boy. And we changed the casting and it kind of changed maybe the interpretation or the look of it", but like, what would it mean to actually change it for a mixed race character? Like, was there anything that would have been added? Or would have been interesting to add that would have liked further that even more?

CORRY: Yeah, well, I mean, so obviously, as I mentioned, the character of the father, but Jamie himself is obviously breaking sort of boundaries of gender, to an extent, and again, has that sort of relationship with his father. And he's also got a whole issue of not really knowing where he belongs, and not having a sort of place that he could fit in and be himself. And I think that obviously, very, very easily slots into mixed race characters, you know. When you've got a character that feels like they don't fit in making the mixed race can, you know, often add another element to that. Add an interesting element that kind of goes along with that. And, yeah, it's just interesting, because I feel like it we we've gotten to a point now, and the film seems to be set in 2020 or 2021. You know, in this in this sort of decade, we're at a point now, where, generally drag is not as sort of groundbreaking as it was a decade ago when this story actually happened. And so it's kind of hard to believe, watching this film, that this white gay kid, this, this white gay kid is so groundbreaking, just because he enjoys a little bit of drag, you know, and so adding in almost a sort of racism element to it, as well, because then, you know, the bully character that is bullying him, you know, Jamie and his and his friend, is bullying, basically, the two of the sort of non white characters in the play in the musical rather, which is interesting, right? You add that sort of racism element, because the bullying isn't just about the character being gay, it's about him and his friend not being white. And also he's gay. It's just that added little thing there. It makes it I think, a little bit more believable. And ultimately, I think we've had a lot, like quite a lot of stories about gay white men, you know, not that we've had a lot of stories about gay people, but a lot of the stories about gay people have been about white men. I mean, Moonlight is the only real, like, major example of here's a story about gay people that isn't about white men. And that was marketed specifically as that as a deviation from that norm, you know. So I think if we're going to talk about this film as being groundbreaking and being the major this major story, this, this this sort of tentpole movie, we need to try a little harder and make it a little bit different from what's come before, you know.

ROWAN: Yeah, that makes make sense.

CORRY: And I think, you know, I'm not going back on the race of the sort of new race of the character. Makes sense for that.

ROWAN: Yeah, you, there we go. Tick, tick, tick. Reason number two, do you have another another argument?

CORRY: Oh, boy, I've got I've got really three solid arguments here.

ROWAN: Okay. Okay, I'm ready.

CORRY: So I've explained the sort of white part of this, and I want to explain why it's pandering to sort of cis men here. There is a line that is repeated a number of times throughout the film, a boy in a dress is something to be laughed at. A drag queen is something to be feared, is paraphrase the key point there is a boy in a dress or something to be laughed at. Now, that to someone who is entirely entirely unaware of trans and non binary people, or even just gender non conforming people is absolutely is absolutely a fair thing to say. And to be fair, at the end of the film, Jamie does show up in a dress as a boy in a dress. But the amount of times that it's explicitly said that a boy in a dress is something to be laughed at. The fact that it's not explicitly said otherwise at the end of the film, is just it's not it's not necessarily great. I think it's very easy to come away with the message that a boy addresses something to be laughed at. And Jamie was very brave for coming for coming to his prom as a boy in a dress, you know?

ROWAN: Mmm.

CORRY: I I think honestly this comes down to the film just I say the film is bad. I think the film is muddled in its messaging, its character arcs don't make sense. Jamie is a very confident person who then does drag and decides that drag is what makes him confident and he's not confident not as not in drag when that's not at all what we've seen throughout the film. The film is very heavy handed in some ways. And so I think that if if you say explicitly a boy, a boy in a dress or something to be laughed at, and you're heavy handed in all other ways, I don't think you can leave it down to subtext at the end of the film to kind of go back on that, you know.

ROWAN: Okay, so here's the thing with your first hot take. I was already with you--

CORRY: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --with your second hot take. I was like I do not know enough about this movie to necessarily have an opinion on the offset. With this third one.

CORRY: Yeah.

ROWAN: I reasonably enjoyed this movie. Like I've seen I really liked the musical, I've seen the musical and I was like yeah, this is fine. It did it did kind of suffer in my head from like stage acting on screen like a lot of the script and stuff was--

CORRY: Yeah, oh God--

ROWAN: --it was scripted, made. sense for onstage because on stage, you kind of do a little bit more expositionie, didacticiel stuff. And it sort of works--

CORRY: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --because it's quite stylized. But when it's in a movie, it just feels very heavy handed. And so there was just an element of that where it's like, oh, I can forgive that, like, it's fine. I will say, with this, this hot take that you're bringing right now, you're kind of persuading me--

CORRY: Ohh.

ROWAN: --because I I hadn't really thought about that line in terms of like its implications.

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: Because I was like, so aware of the, like you said, like already kind of knew all of the stuff around like, actually that's not true. And like, this is clearly a lesson that's gonna be learned and blah, blah, blah. But you're right, like it doesn't explicitly, then counter it in a in a strong enough way at the end.

CORRY: Yeah, ultimately, I see this film as being generally and I know, and I I have friends that enjoy it that are outside of this group that I'm talking about, you know. So I don't don't take this as me saying this, I see a lot of people enjoying this film. And that's me saying these are the only people who enjoy this film. But we'll see a lot of people enjoy this film seem to be the kind of guys that would be on Grindr saying no fats, no fems, no blacks

ROWAN: Mmm.

CORRY: You know, that absolutely seems to be the kind of they'd be happy doing that. Or rather, you know, probably note, no fat, no black, no Asian, does that sort of thing. Because there is this kind of racism, and this kind of, I guess, I mean, transphobia, that is deep seated in a particular part of the gay community. And this film, it it talks about breaking gender, but only through the medium of drag. And it's really interesting, because it doesn't even get the medium of drag, right? This is not this is not one of my arguments, I'm sorry, this is just something that really woke me up. It doesn't get the medium of drag, right? Jamie doesn't focus at all on his performance. He doesn't do his own makeup, he doesn't do his own hair. He buys a dress, sure, but it's not a dress that he's picked out, or a dress that he's made himself. He does absolutely nothing. We don't see Jamie practicing his dances, or practicing his lip syncing or perhaps practicing any form of artistry whatsoever, he just wants to wear a dress. And I think that's just a complete misunderstanding of what drag is generally. And it is just really interesting that it seems to be written from it seems to be written from an outside perspective, entirely. It's it's so it's baffling to me that this this film seems to be so just almost wrong about its subject matter. I think the reason that it that it sort of so many people enjoy it. And you've said the best thing there, by the way, is that you can forgive this, you can forgive that. I think the reason people forgive so much of the the knock great stuff in this film, the stuff that you know, in any other film, you'd be like, Oh, this is a bad film. The reason that's forgiven is because there is this slight sort of emotional core to Jamie's character that is kind of explicitly said throughout the film, rather than being implicit, or there in any other sense of, I am the only gay person in my school. And this is new to everyone, and no one knows how to act. And it's very difficult for me, and I think that's something that resonates with people that are maybe it's my age or older. But with the with the youths now they everyone is everyone seems to be queer, you know, I mean. And you've got the Internet where you can find that family, it seems that this is this is sort of reaching to a slightly older audience who are willing to look past all of the stuff that is sort of not great about the film. Because it feels like it's telling their story, explicitly the fact that Jamie is an awful selfish character that really no one should like at all. If you actually look at what Jamie does in the film, awful person, but people overlook that because they're not thinking about Jamie as a character. They're thinking, I'm gonna put myself in this character's shoes, because this character feels like me, you know?

ROWAN: Yeah, this is slowly becoming a call out podcast Corry--

CORRY: I'm so sorry.

ROWAN: I'd be really interested to know like, what young people now think of this because I I'm not entirely convinced that it's like, a gay haven out there for it all the queers are just like partying it up in their high schools, I have a feeling that there's probably a lot of young people who who do kind of resonate with that, that feeling of being the only person.

CORRY: Abso--I don't mean to give the idea that every single kid nowadays is in school and is able to be out and proud. What I mean is that there is much more now, a possibility of finding that family online.

ROWAN: Mmm.

CORRY: So while you can still have that feeling of school, you're not necessarily feeling like you need to hide yourself from everyone. Like you've got no family, like you need to find a sort of drag queens shop in the middle of Sheffield in order to have that acceptance. That that's all I mean, it it just the film feels dated, I think, because it is set now, you know, with with just the sort of phone that they're using the fact that people want to be YouTube stars, and they're filming Instagram story, videos and whatnot. It's just having it set quite explicitly now, makes it feel very dated and kind of stilted I think.

ROWAN: Do you think it would have been improved if they'd have set it when this originally happened? If it had been like a slightly 10, 20 years ago kind of vibe?

CORRY: Yeah, I think if they went 10 years ago, and they really hammered that home, and really went in more to I think the fact that Jamie has no one to connect with outside of this. That would have really been better, because we kind of got to not believe that that RuPaul has been on the air for, for for years, you know, and that drag has become something that everyone is kind of aware of no. I mean, obviously everyone was aware of drag before, but it's become something that's much more normalized, you know. You've got to put a lot of side to sort of believe and enjoy this film, I think. And you were saying, you know, about sort of what young people think of this, I I ran a poll on my Instagram, and I have a varying range of people. But it was 47% of people said they liked it, 53% of people said they hated it. Which I thought was quite interesting, it was much more split, I thought I was going to be in the minority here. But just a very slight majority, they're just very interesting, you know. I've got a third point, but it is a very, very quick and easy point. That's, that's just really to put a little cherry on top of the cake. I said that it's pandering. And I want to sort of qualify that the reason that's pandering and not sort of actually, in support of what it's talking about, is the fact that they've got Richard E. Grant playing the older drag queen, when literally any, any other British drag queen could have done it. Now granted, Richard E. Grant gives the best performance of the film, is absolutely fantastic. But to cast, a straight man to play a character whose entire point in the story is to be a queer elder, and who has an entire song talking about sort of the beginnings of pride in the AIDS epidemic, it just feels very, very hollow, to go for a kind of big name, British actor, instead of going for anyone that's actually, you know, queer, and could bring a sort of truth to that character. And again, sorry, Richard E. Grant did a fantastic job. I best best best performance from from any of the cast, from any of the cast. I'm just frustrated that that came from someone that I don't think should have been cast in the role. You know, you could have cast any older queen, you could have cast anyone that is queer themselves that could have brought that element to the character from having actually experienced it. Which I think in a meta sense, watching the film would have given it more wait, it would have felt like, oh, well, we're not bringing up the AIDS epidemic. We're not bringing up the beginnings of pride in a sort of pandering sense. Look, this is someone that actually experienced it, we're aware and we're doing the work to make sure that this film is about queer people and is by queer people. You know, it just very much feels like pandering given that they they gave that role to someone who is a straight man, specifically a straight man that said that straight people shouldn't take gay roles not too long ago.

ROWAN: Yeah, that does seem like it's feels slightly contradictory and it and as well, because it's obviously you don't you know, have to be gay to be a drag queen. But the character is explicitly gay in it as well as like a not necessarily explicitly sad, but it's like very obvious that he's had a partner who's died and like that's part of kind of the implications about his his character. And so yes, that does make sense. So if you were to try and salvage Jamie, is is Jamie salvageable for you? Is this something where you could change some some little bits and make it work? Or do you just think it's not? It's not a vibe,

CORRY: I think it's salvageable, but it would have to be quite the overhaul, the--there is a decent story in there, the story of someone who lacks confidence, I think, ultimately, it could be. Okay, if you want to make just one change to make Jamie a much, much better film, I think that you need to change the character of Jamie to not be a selfish person, or have that be his arc, right? He's a selfish person who isn't very confident. And the reason that he's so self-centered, is a defense for that, for that lack of confidence. And through the medium of drag, he finds confidence and realizes that he's that he treats people very poorly, and becomes a better person in the end, who is a well-rounded person who focuses on their art, you know. So you just change the character of Jamie from a little princess to someone that actually really really cares about their craft, you know.

ROWAN: I think that they got away with him not didn't get away with it, but I think they were kind of thinking that they got away with him not practicing his craft, because it is a musical and therefore you're like, oh, yeah, he's singing it's dancing. Like that's how it's but that's not like he's he's never singing and dancing in reality, like in the musical to do the practice.

CORRY: Yup.

ROWAN: There's no like, kind of practice song. There's like the ones on the house with the the other drag queens but it's not like a we're practicing song. It's like we're hyping you up as we do your makeup song, which is maybe could have had a little little edit to it to make it so that he actually does like a reasoning and I was really hoping so they they do add a song in this musical. They change out a song in the original stage musical.

CORRY: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: Which is the Legend of Loco Chanel, which is just like a really classic like fantasy sequence song.

CORRY: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: That's, you know, very dramatic and is the story of the kind of drag queen persona of Richard E. Grant's character. They've replaced that, as Corry mentioned earlier with a song that's about like queer history, which I thought was a really interesting change and I wish they pushed what Jamie learned from that more. They kind of had like one line where he talks to Priti about it, and then it doesn't necessarily go anywhere else.

CORRY: Sorry, can I just that one line is, they had to fight for it, it was really hard for them, it was really, really hard for them. That's that that's the whole vibe of that one--

ROWAN: The vibe.

CORRY: --line.

ROWAN: And I think like there was an element of like, oh, yeah, actually, this kind of felt like super more modern, young people who--

CORRY: Mmm.

ROWAN: --haven't, they've grown up with rights, to to--

CORRY: Yeah.

ROWAN: --for lack of a better way of saying it. Like they weren't growing up in in a time when, for example, I was growing up as someone who I'm sure that the TikTok teenagers would refer to as a queer elder, at 29 years old, but I was like growing up, like knowing that I was never going to get married, that I was like--

CORRY: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --only just been allowed to adopt children that I would like all of these things were were happening as I was growing up. And it was there was this moment of like, oh, yeah, actually, that probably is the reaction. Because there there's, if you've not been taught about this stuff in school, and if you've not grown up knowing that you are not equal. At what point do you start to be like, I wonder what it was like back in the day, I wonder when it changed, because you've not necessarily been living through any change yourself. And I wish that they push that further. Like, that seems like such an interesting kind of place to be in for a young person today.

CORRY: Yeah, I think I think you've hit the nail on the head there. It really is, it is a very genuine reaction. I think what's quite funny to me, is that the film doesn't seem interested in it. The film itself seems to want to pay lip service to it. They added that song because they want people to talk about the fact that what we're doing right now, they want people to talk about the fact that they included the queer history, they want people to go, oh, wow, this, this struggle of the gays, look at that. I'm an ally, you struggled so much, I feel like that's the intent behind it, rather than to actually highlight anything of note or worth. Because Jamie has a character, you could say that he's maybe spurred on by it, but there was nothing holding him back before before then really.

ROWAN: Hmm.

CORRY: He he doesn't seem interested in it. And and therefore the film doesn't seem interesting in itself. So it it it is interesting, that that's why it feels like pandering to me, you know. Because they have that song there, but they don't want to cast someone that you know, really kind of fits that role properly. They don't want the main character to do more than give a single line about it, they don't want to explore it, they just want to almost pay lip service to it. And that's why I think that Jamie is a bad film that exists just to exploit to exploit and pander to cis white gay men, and also liberal allies.

ROWAN: So Corry, I think we've kind of reached the end of your three hot takes that did--

CORRY: Uh-hmm.

ROWAN: --indeed increase in spice as you went along. I'm gonna say this was a absolutely storming out of the gate. First episode three out of three, I'm convinced of all three of them. You made some incredible arguments, especially with that last one where I was I was very much on the fence. And I feel like you've tipped me over. And now I'm I just have this image of like, a better version of that movie that just includes all of the little things that you said to change. And it's like, oh, frustrating. And I think that potentially, like the, the answer to a lot of these kind of hot takes that you've brought in is like just more, just more queer movies with kind of queer people at the helm or involved in the process like thoughtfully included within within it. And then it won't it won't necessarily be no worthy of like, oh, this film has been praised more than it should have been or anything like that, because it it won't be praised more than it should have been. Because there will be alternatives that are better and people won't be kind of having to like it because it's the only thing they've seen that has a a you know British film of that gay teenager in it. It's it's not the the only thing that there can they've got. Congratulations, I do not have any prize for you, except for the knowledge that you have changed my mind. And I believe that's probably prize enough.

CORRY: I'll tell you what, this this pride of having one is prized enough for me.

ROWAN: Love. Very well done. Excellent. We love a good queer reference at the end of the episode.

[54:08]

[Outro]

ROWAN: Thank you so much for listening. You can follow us on Twitter to keep up to date with everything podcast related. If you enjoyed this episode, please do think about supporting us over on Patreon. Our Patrons really are the backbone of the podcast and in exchange for your support. We have some great tier rewards set up over there. One of the perks on our Patreon is a Queer Movie watch along every last Saturday of the month exclusively for our Patreons, it's very fun. So you know come and join us. The Queer Movie Podcast is edited by Julia Schifini. We're also part of Multitude Productions which has a lot more amazing sibling podcast ours that you should definitely check out. Make sure you follow and subscribe to the podcast so you are primed for our next episode. Thank you so much for listening, and hopefully you will hear from us very soon.

Transcriptionist: Vernon Bryann Casil

Editor: Krizia Marrie Casil

Pride (Queer Biopic)

25 november 2021 | 70 min

Queer Movie Podcast: A New Era

16 november 2021 | 1 min

Codependent Lesbian Space Alien Seeks Same (Queer Sci-Fi)

8 september 2019 | 56 min

In Defence of Megan Fox

28 juni 2019 | 8 min

Jennifer's Body (Queer Horror)

2 maj 2019 | 69 min

Lyra Mckee

19 april 2019 | 8 min

Favourite (Queer Oscars 2019)

24 februari 2019 | 59 min

The Birdcage (Queer Comedy)

17 februari 2019 | 65 min

Moonlight (Queer Oscar Winners)

17 februari 2019 | 60 min

GBF (Queer Teen Trash)

17 februari 2019 | 59 min

Queer Movie Podcast: We're, like, really gay...

11 februari 2019 | 3 min

We are professional internet queers Jazza John and Rowan Ellis, and we’re the hosts of the new monthly show “The Queer Movie Podcast”.

Every month we’ll be bringing you the best (and worst) of LGBTQ+ cinema, one genre at a time. We’re gay, like, real gay. And we love movies. But too often we’ve seen great queer cinema fall under the radar - and not get the love it deserves. Or we’ve discovered cult classics we wish more people could shout about with us. Or we’ve suffered truly awful LGBTQ+ films that demand a closer look. We’ll be covering all of these and more in the show. Here’s how it works: Each episode we’ll be discussing a film - we’ll be giving you our thoughts - bringing in political and social context, and talking themes, cinematography, soundtracks, casting, and more.

How do we choose these films? Well, we’ll be deciding a new genre each month - everything from biopics to high school movies. And for each genre we’ll shortlist 4 movies to choose from - some classics, some lesser known - some we love and some we’ve never seen. Each episode you have the chance to vote on twitter for which film from that chosen genre you want us to discuss. The first episode, for example, is the so awful it’s brilliant genre of “Teen Trash” - we gave you a choice of 4 films in that genre, and you picked GBF. Upcoming genres include: comedies, musicals, documentaries - and, in a very special episode, porn.

We’re launching in February 2019 - LGBT History Month in the UK- definitely deliberate - with 3 full length episodes to sink your teeth into - followed by a Oscars 2019 special - and a new episode every month after that.

Worth mentioning here the first 3 episodes were recorded last year and therefore will have some out of date references to things like the release of Love, Simon, Rowan’s guilty pleasure trip to Disney World, and Jazza’s obsession with the 2018 winner of Eurovision. Although look out for mini-episodes in between our main releases!

If this all seems like your kind of thing - subscribe now to get new episodes direct to your chosen podcast app. And if you like what you hear please rate and review.

Queer Movie Podcast

The Queer Movie Podcast is your favourite gay movie watch party - hosted by Rowan Ellis and Jazza John.

Om podden

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